How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery [Archive] - Page 2

UntoHim

01-12-2018, 10:00 AM

..that the work of ministry is merely a spiritual principle.

...that "the work of ministry" is a 501(c)3 corporation in Anaheim, California.

In reality, "the word of ministry" should be both "spiritual" and "earthly". After all, we know that God wants his will done "on earth as it is in heaven".

Both these brothers are very familiar with the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee. So why the differing views? Well, one of them has been able to take a step back and accurately describe the reality of the situation....a dynamic that has been noted by many former Local Church members, and even by outsiders, for many years.

Our friend Drake wants to pretend that "The One Publication" (http://www.lsm.org/onepublication/) does not exist. He wants to pretend that there is no OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED declaration regarding "the work of of ministry" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. The work of ministry has been OFFICIALLY and PUBLICLY personalized and memorialized in the person and work of Witness Lee. There is an OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED declaration that there is a "Vision of The Age", a "Ministry of the Age" and a "Minister of The Age" The vision of the age is given by Witness Lee. The Ministry of the Age is the personal ministry of Witness Lee. The minister of the age is of course Witness Lee.

koinonia is right. The work of ministry is a spiritual principle.

Drake is also right. To the followers of Witness Lee, the work of ministry is a 501(c)3 corporation in Anaheim California.
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Koinonia

01-12-2018, 10:13 AM

Koinomia,

I did already. I gave my explanation and rationale.

Then, you made an assertion that the work of ministry is merely "a spiritual principle".

It's not my responsibility to chase every unfounded assertion made in this forum.

You made the assertion so please validate your assertion from the Bible. Maybe you are right and we will all learn something.

Drake

Drake, if you don't like my wording about "a spiritual principle," it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't even affect my point.

My point is that there is no scriptural basis for asserting that LSM is the work of ministry. And your assertion as such is astounding.

Boxjobox

01-12-2018, 10:53 AM

Starting my research on LSM

(b) Relationship between interested person and the organization (c) Amount of assistance (d) Type of assistance (e) Purpose of assistance
For Paperwork Reduction Act Notice, see the Instructions for Form 990 or 990-EZ. Cat. No. 50056ASchedule L (Form 990 or 990-EZ) 2015Page 2 Schedule L (Form 990 or 990-EZ) 2015Page 2 Part IV Business Transactions Involving Interested Persons.
Complete if the organization answered "Yes" on Form 990, Part IV, line 28a, 28b, or 28c.
(a) Name of interested person (b) Relationship between interested person and the organization (c) Amount of transaction (d) Description of transaction (e) Sharing of organization's revenues?
Yes No

(1) KERRY ROBICHAUX SECRETARY/DIRECTOR 31,200 RENT No
(2) TIMOTHY GRAVER CHILD OF OFFICER 55,141 W-2 WAGES No
(3) AMY GRAVER CHILD OF OFFICER 29,854 W-2 WAGES No
(4) THEODORE HAGE IN-LAW OF OFFICER 60,102 W-2 WAGES No
(5) NICOLE DUSSELJEE CHILD OF OFFICER 30,541 W-2 WAGES No
(6) JOSEPH PRIM IN-LAW OF OFFICER 62,804 W-2 WAGES No
(7) YIN FONG LEE DAUGHTER-IN-LAW OF FOUNDER 81,101 W-2 WAGES & RENT No
(8) SAMUEL LEE GRANDSON OF FOUNDER 59,406 W-2 WAGES No
(9) JOANNA KUO DAUGHTER OF FOUNDER 28,553 W-2 WAGES No
(10) PHILEMON LEE SON OF FOUNDER 51,835 W-2 WAGES & RENT No
(11) RACHEL LEE DAUGHTER OF FOUNDER 6,840 RENT No
(12) VALENA WARDEN WIFE OF OFFICER 43,204 W-2 WAGES No
(13) SHARON WARDEN DAUGHTER OF OFFICER 2,671 W-2 WAGES No

UntoHim

01-12-2018, 11:39 AM

Boxjobox,

Please provide the link to this document.

Thanks
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ZNPaaneah

01-12-2018, 11:43 AM

Ohio

01-12-2018, 12:08 PM

Wow! This is LSM?

Just a family business ... not the New Testament Ministry.

Drake

01-12-2018, 12:17 PM

Drake, if you don't like my wording about "a spiritual principle," it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't even affect my point.

My point is that there is no scriptural basis for asserting that LSM is the work of ministry. And your assertion as such is astounding.

Koinomia,

And the underlying premise of your assertion is faulty.... the work of ministry is not merely a "spiritual principle". This is not a disagreement about terminology. There is no scriptural basis for the notion of a spiritual principle for the "work of ministry" without an earthly practice. Scripture is clear on that. On that point, I agree with UntoHim's first sentence in#253 The argument you are making, incomplete as it is, is dismissing the clear testimony of scripture concerning the work of ministry and if what you assert is true, then as regards the work of ministry just about anything will do.

You may not agree with how I have explained it, you may not agree with anything I have said about it but please Koinomia, don't act like I did not offer a scriptural based explanation for the work of ministry, and don't ask me to refute an argument that you have yet to make. Really, there is enough to disagree on about what has been said already without disagreeing on incomplete arguments.

As I said, it is a moot point to discuss what role Living Stream Ministry plays in the work of ministry to produce and build up the local churches (though I have offered my view on this) if you do not believe there is a work of ministry and if you do not believe that the new Testament model of local churches in each city is valid.

Thanks,
Drake

Boxjobox

01-12-2018, 12:30 PM

Boxjobox,

Please provide the link to this document.

Thanks
-

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/ Just type in living stream ministry

Ohio

01-12-2018, 12:33 PM

Koinomia,

And the underlying premise of your assertion is faulty.... the work of ministry is not merely a "spiritual principle". This is not a disagreement about terminology. There is no scriptural basis for the notion of a spiritual principle for the "work of ministry" without an earthly practice. Scripture is clear on that.
Clear? Read II Corinthians 3, for starters.

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, letters of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? (http://bibleapps.com/2_corinthians/3-1.htm) 2 You are our letter written in our hearts, known and read of all men: (http://bibleapps.com/2_corinthians/3-2.htm) 3 For as much as you are manifestly declared to be the letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. (http://bibleapps.com/2_corinthians/3-3.htm) 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: (http://bibleapps.com/2_corinthians/3-4.htm) 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; (http://bibleapps.com/2_corinthians/3-5.htm) 6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. (http://bibleapps.com/2_corinthians/3-6.htm)

The New Testament ministry, for starters, does not even need LSM's printing presses.

Boxjobox

01-12-2018, 12:37 PM

Drake, maybe if you would answer some questions, I could get a better feel of your working definitions of some terms and ideas you present:

What is your history with LSM, how have you interacted with them?

What is the affiliation of the church in your city with LSM, and on what basis do they interact?

If the elders (I'll add with the fellowship of the local saints) decided not to have any interaction with LSM, would you still meet with them?

If LSM closed shop, what do you think would happen to your definition of ministry?

Ohio

01-12-2018, 12:45 PM

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/ Just type in living stream ministry
Thanks Boxjobox.

This tells us what we already know, that LSM is just big business, peddling the word of God.

aron

01-12-2018, 02:07 PM

This tells us what we already know, that LSM is just big business, peddling the word of God.

The form showed 15 voting directors, 13 of whom received reportable (W-2) wages from the same non-profit business (Living Stream Ministry) which they direct. No small conflict of interest, here?

But then they learned from Witness Lee, so what else would one expect.

Also makes one wonder how many shell companies are out there, as well: entered "Bibles for America" and found a separate entry on the same site. 2+ Million $$ donations. $120+K in salaries.

Koinonia

01-12-2018, 02:10 PM

Koinomia,

And the underlying premise of your assertion is faulty.... the work of ministry is not merely a "spiritual principle". This is not a disagreement about terminology. There is no scriptural basis for the notion of a spiritual principle for the "work of ministry" without an earthly practice. Scripture is clear on that. On that point, I agree with UntoHim's first sentence in#253 The argument you are making, incomplete as it is, is dismissing the clear testimony of scripture concerning the work of ministry and if what you assert is true, then as regards the work of ministry just about anything will do.

You may not agree with how I have explained it, you may not agree with anything I have said about it but please Koinomia, don't act like I did not offer a scriptural based explanation for the work of ministry, and don't ask me to refute an argument that you have yet to make. Really, there is enough to disagree on about what has been said already without disagreeing on incomplete arguments.

As I said, it is a moot point to discuss what role Living Stream Ministry plays in the work of ministry to produce and build up the local churches (though I have offered my view on this) if you do not believe there is a work of ministry and if you do not believe that the new Testament model of local churches in each city is valid.

Thanks,
Drake

Drake, you have not provided any scriptural basis whatsoever that LSM is the work of the ministry--because--you can't.

Drake

01-12-2018, 04:39 PM

Drake, you have not provided any scriptural basis whatsoever that LSM is the work of the ministry--because--you can't.

Koinomia,

You are twisting the question. I am not going to follow you. You have my explanation and can read it again if you care. Whether you do or don't it is fine with me either way.

In any case, you have not provided a sliver of scriptural evidence for your assertion that the work of ministry is merely a "spiritual principle".

None, nada, nunca, zip..... because you can't.

Drake

Drake

01-12-2018, 05:12 PM

Drake, maybe if you would answer some questions, I could get a better feel of your working definitions of some terms and ideas you present:

Ok Boxjobox. I was considering a more detailed response to your previous note as my next entry to you but let's discuss your questions.

What is your history with LSM, how have you interacted with them?

No different than most local churches (exempting for the moment your experience). I read their publications, I go to their conferences, their trainings, I participate in some of their evangelization initiatives. My library has almost everything... but not exclusively. I have a big personal library.

What is the affiliation of the church in your city with LSM, and on what basis do they interact?

Same as most. Speaking for all the local churches I have been a part for over forty years my observation is that LSM is a service provider in the work of ministry, meaning they provide teachings through spiritual materials in the form of books, organize conferences, when invited come to a local church to speak. If a local church feels inspired they can also sponsor the radio broadcast. Where invited they will distribute Bibles for free, send you free Bibles and other material to distribute if requested. They will assist in setting up gospel outreach. The co-workers are precious brothers, in my home for meals and fellowship from time to time.

If the elders (I'll add with the fellowship of the local saints) decided not to have any interaction with LSM, would you still meet with them?

Yes, if they did not deviate from the scriptural model of a local church, did not become a denomination, received all believers, etc. However, having rejected the work of ministry they were receiving up and to that I would be keen to understand what work of ministry we would now be part of. I shared before that I lived in a city that had broke away from the ministry of Brother Lee and started their own ministry for their region. When I asked to join their meetings, not wanting to start a new local church they said "we'll ask our leaders, don't call us we'll call you". They never called. At that point, they lost the basis as a local church since they refused to accept all believers in that city. So the answer is yes, but if that local church became something different then of course I would not meet with them no matter whose ministry they adopted (their own or another).

If LSM closed shop, what do you think would happen to your definition of ministry?

Nothing. No change. My definition of the work of ministry is from the Bible. There is a work of ministry and I would still expect the Lord to provide one to supply the local churches. I intimated this when I said even if the leading ones in the ministry were to depart from this way that I would by the Lord's mercy and grace continue in it.

Thanks
Drake

UntoHim

01-12-2018, 05:16 PM

Our friend Drake wants to pretend that "The One Publication" (http://www.lsm.org/onepublication/) does not exist. He wants to pretend that there is no OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED declaration regarding "the work of of ministry" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. The work of ministry has been OFFICIALLY and PUBLICLY personalized and memorialized in the person and work of Witness Lee. There is an OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED declaration that there is a "Vision of The Age", a "Ministry of the Age" and a "Minister of The Age" The vision of the age is given by Witness Lee. The Ministry of the Age is the personal ministry of Witness Lee. The minister of the age is of course Witness Lee.
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Koininia is very well aware of The One Publication. So is Mr. Drake. Until Drake comes clean on his acceptance or rejection of this OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED deceleration, from the OFFICIAL leadership of the Local Church movement, this is all much ado about nothing. Unless of course Drake wants to declare himself as one the the Blended Brothers and wants to officially rescind or retract from this OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED deceleration. "The work of ministry" can mean a thousand different things to a thousand different Christians. WHOSE WORK? WHOSE MINISTRY?
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Ohio

01-12-2018, 06:36 PM

Koinomia,

You are twisting the question. I am not going to follow you. You have my explanation and can read it again if you care. Whether you do or don't it is fine with me either way.

In any case, you have not provided a sliver of scriptural evidence for your assertion that the work of ministry is merely a "spiritual principle".

None, nada, nunca, zip..... because you can't.

Drake

My post #261 provides a smidgen of evidence.

Ohio

01-12-2018, 06:39 PM

The form showed 15 voting directors, 13 of whom received reportable (W-2) wages from the same non-profit business (Living Stream Ministry) which they direct. No small conflict of interest, here?

But then they learned from Witness Lee, so what else would one expect.

Also makes one wonder how many shell companies are out there, as well: entered "Bibles for America" and found a separate entry on the same site. 2+ Million $$ donations. $120+K in salaries.

I felt it was quite shameful in Ingalls' book to have Lee's wife on the board of directors. Obviously W. Lee was used to having his closest associates disagreeing with his methods, so he could never trust anyone.

LSM has $20Million in annual revenue, and $100Million in tangible assets, mostly real estate!!! Pretty incredible for this "humble little publisher of the ministry of Nee and Lee." And to think that LSM fronted a handful of loyalists in Mansfield and Columbus, Ohio to file lawsuits to confiscate meeting halls worth perhaps a couple hundred grand. This is Ohio, land of cheap real estate, and LSM couldn't just obey the scriptures in I Cor 6 about lawsuits, and use that money to help their people get another place to meet? So pathetic!

Drake constantly tries to guilt-shame the posters here for exposing corruption at LSM, yet never owns what his people do. Think millstone!

Koinonia

01-12-2018, 06:46 PM

ZNPaaneah

01-12-2018, 06:57 PM

I felt it was quite shameful in Ingalls' book to have Lee's wife on the board of directors. Obviously W. Lee was used to having his closest associates disagreeing with his methods, so he could never trust anyone.

LSM has $20Million in annual revenue, and $100Million in tangible assets, mostly real estate!!! Pretty incredible for this "humble little publisher of the ministry of Nee and Lee." And to think that LSM fronted a handful of loyalists in Mansfield and Columbus, Ohio to file lawsuits to confiscate meeting halls worth perhaps a couple hundred grand. This is Ohio, land of cheap real estate, and LSM couldn't just obey the scriptures in I Cor 6 about lawsuits, and use that money to help their people get another place to meet? So pathetic!

Drake constantly tries to guilt-shame the posters here for exposing corruption at LSM, yet never owns what his people do. Think millstone!

So much for the "testimony of Jesus".

Ohio

01-12-2018, 07:01 PM

Yes, if they did not deviate from the scriptural model of a local church, did not become a denomination, received all believers, etc. However, having rejected the work of ministry they were receiving up and to that I would be keen to understand what work of ministry we would now be part of. I shared before that I lived in a city that had broke away from the ministry of Brother Lee and started their own ministry for their region. When I asked to join their meetings, not wanting to start a new local church they said "we'll ask our leaders, don't call us we'll call you". They never called. At that point, they lost the basis as a local church since they refused to accept all believers in that city. So the answer is yes, but if that local church became something different then of course I would not meet with them no matter whose ministry they adopted (their own or another).

This is a bogus claim in that context because the elders of the church are required by scripture to "mark those who make division and causes of stumbling." (Romans 16.17-19)

TLFisher

01-12-2018, 07:27 PM

Concerning your question about clergy laity. The local churches are a procedure, temporary, and transient on the earth. Unlike a clergy laity system, every member in a local church must be taught and encouraged to function. Therefore, the work of ministry is to bring every member of the Body into their function as Paul taught in Romans 12 and as practiced in 1 Corinthians 14:26 (Each one has is the exercise of gifts and inspiration when we come together). When we speak of clergy laity we often focus on the clergy but the big issue is with the laity. The Body of Christ is built up by each member functioning not just a few gifted members....but every member. The Clergy Laity system annuals the function of the members.

Local churches have become every bit a clergy laity system. It's been decades gone past since the time every member could function in the manner of Paul's epistles. Sure you could have different ones speaking, but it's not the same as functioning. The speaking is restricted to ministry publications or solely to Holy Word for Morning Revival depending on your locality of fellowship.

Boxjobox

01-14-2018, 02:43 PM

Boxjobox, There was a specific and special ministry focused on producing the local churches and that ministry and the workers in that ministry have a responsibility before God to support, teach, exhort, etc. those local churches on an ongoing basis. That is a historical fact and the scriptural teaching concerning the relationship between a local church and the work of ministry. It doesn’t really matter if a local church was planted by Watchman Nee or Witness Lee or coworkers of those brothers for they are all of the one and same ministry. It also does not matter if someone planted a local church and that church later became aligned with the ministry that builds up the churches. One may plant, another water, but it is God that increases. If you do not see or agree that LSM is that work of ministry then where is the work of ministry? To well meaning brothers I say.. well ok, if you agree with the model of the local churches, the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, then if not this ministry, where is that ministry?
Drake, this is my view of the relation of WL/LSM to the Local churches. I base this part on my 13 year experience in the LC, part on what I've read on this site by followers and rejectors of WL/LSM, and part on what you are saying: WL was largely responsible for the formation of LC's in the USA ( I won't talk of other places, because I don't have enough background). His ministry then progressed to an expository of the Bible, other related topics, and then to a method of expanding the scope of influence and spread of his material and LCs. At some point- and I'm sure he was well aware of it, if not instrumental in it coming about, his ministry was considered the unique and only legitimate ministry for the LCs. While it would be dangerous for the LCs to call him an Apostle, the thought of him being an apostle, and the apostle for the rest of this age, grew until it was generally accepted.

In the view of the LCs, his being an apostle became greater than Paul the Apostle, in that he had the works of John and Paul and Paul only had himself. James, Jude, Peter were really pedestrian and did not have the great revelation Paul had, but John had revelation Paul did not, so when WL could draw from both sources and mold them into one message, obviously the writings of WL were superior to the two individual. And because he had both, he could expand on their ministries, and fill in the gaps. This put WLs writings above what one would have with just the scripture alone. So, it would be impossible to say WL was an Apostle, because he was not an actual disciple of Jesus on earth , nor had the unique calling to Apostleship as Paul. In the end WL and his writings became bigger than the parts presented in scripture.

So the LCs need to follow WL because his unique, up to date ministry is viewed as the superior and only clear speaking that matches God's desire. To rely on scripture alone would leave one with only parts, and only WL is able to properly connect the parts. By speaking, reading, fellowshipping over WLs work, people will be brought into the complete revelation and building of the church. Others, that only use scripture, do not produce the church, but something inferior. There must be speaking in the meetings by each one using the WL material for the real building to occur. Other ministers both past and present, only saw parts, WLs ministry gave the complete revelation and way for the proper churches to be built up. Other people's speaking may be nice, but not complete.
One needs a revelation that this is the proper ministry, and when one accepts that and practices that in the proper church, then they are being built up.

When WL died, LSM, the company he established for his work, is fully carrying on this vision and needs to be accepted by local assemblies in order for them to be a proper church. If others use the term local church but do not join to and practice the LSM way, they are not in fellowship with the up to date ministry and fall short.

Drake- is this a good summary of what you believe and what the LC believes and practices?

Drake

01-14-2018, 06:21 PM

Boxjobox >”Drake- is this a good summary of what you believe and what the LC believes and practices?”

Boxjobox, thanks your note and thanks for asking. I’ll clarify.

My views and the views of those I met with forty years do not believe that Brother Lees or Brother Nees writings are greater than those writers of the Bible.....Pauls, John, Peter,.... Brother Lee and Nees writings are not scripture. Neither is their apostleship greater than the original Apostles. Their teachings are derived from scripture not net new scripture.

What we believe is that Nee and Lee are following the New Testament teachings and New Testament pattern defined by those writers and in these days the Lord is recovering or restoring the pattern of the churches in the New Testament to build up the Body of Christ and consummate this age. The Lord raised up ministers in various times and places in the past to recover something..... what remains still in these days is the recovery of local churches as the procedure and testimony according to the Nee Testament pattern to close the age and bring the Lord back.

Therefore, we do not elevate Brother Lee above the Apostles, rather we accept that he was an apostle to the local churches raised up under his and Nees ministry for this era. We do not elevate the writings of these two servants above the scripture. They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately. We also recognize the Christian life and work is carried out according by the Holy Sprirt as the ultimate authority through men who are less than perfect yet nonetheless bear responsibility as the Lord sees fit and has arranged.

Drake

Evangelical

01-14-2018, 07:29 PM

I think he was just referring to the difficulty in meeting those requirements (the half-truth), especially Micah didn't mention the "gift". MacLaren didn't mean it is human concept.

May be next time when you read the bible, please take note of how many times the apostles advised the believers to do good and stay away from evil. If the only requirement is believe and it doesn't matter whether the believers follow God's standard, probably a large portion of the epistles would be unnecessary.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Col 3:5 Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry;

Col 3:6 Because of which things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience;

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, inward parts of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, long-suffering;

what does do good mean? Phil 1.6

kumbaya

01-14-2018, 07:34 PM

We do not elevate the writings of these two servants above the scripture. Drake

In many saints homes, it seems to be a common practice to display only life study books in bookshelves, neatly and in chronological order. Many times, there's an accompanied bookshelf with many soft cover books/pamphlets. I'm estimating my family has over 500 books (granted they've been in the LC for 30 plus years).

I've been around long enough to know this isn't an exception. Many saints homes have LSM material on display- almost as "decoration" of some kind. I know my family had special bookshelves built in to their home when building it- for the specific purpose of displaying the Life Studies.

Do you think that the tendency for saints to exhibit this behavior contradicts with the common "idea" of members in the LC saying that they're not elevating the writings of these two "servants" (jury is out for me on this, sorry) above the scripture? I think it would be fair to say, they're at least SEEMING to elevate this writings to a place EXTREMELY close to scripture, right up to equal. I know they don't think that, but the tendency to display their LSM material seems like a red flag to me in the WAY its displayed- almost reverently.

Do you openly display your LSM purchases in this way as well? Not just in a bookcase with other books, but in a SPECIAL way, that's somehow "elevated" and "shown off?"

I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but it's interesting to me how these bookcases in saints homes seem to hold (many times) ONLY LSM material and seems to somehow be the focal point of the room.

Also, Do you think its dangerous to read material from only one source?

Evangelical

01-14-2018, 07:41 PM

It definitely livens up the room. Lol

Boxjobox

01-14-2018, 10:54 PM

Boxjobox >”Drake- is this a good summary of what you believe and what the LC believes and practices?”

Therefore, we do not elevate Brother Lee above the Apostles, rather we accept that he was an apostle to the local churches raised up under his and Nees ministry for this era. We do not elevate the writings of these two servants above the scripture. They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately. We also recognize the Christian life and work is carried out according by the Holy Sprirt as the ultimate authority through men who are less than perfect yet nonetheless bear responsibility as the Lord sees fit and has arranged.

Drake

It's been 30 years since I met with the LC in my city. At the time I left was the start of, I think it was referred to as, " the new way". I can recall going to a meeting and everyone was sitting in small circles reading from- memory may not be exact but, I think it was truth lession book. It was the same thing as if we were reading the Bible and then talking about the scriptures. I got up and left the circle because it was a replacement for scripture. I could site other examples of things said and practices and video that gave me the feeling the Bible had become a reference book and Lee material was the living and operating word. This was a time after witnessing the tape room dumping anything produced locally and the bookroom dumping all non- LSM material, so it was apparent that there would only be one source. I think the bookroom also dumped W Née books that were not under the LSM label.

Not that long ago, I went to listen to Christian radio station, and on came WL. It was a short excerpt from a training, and then a couple of people were interpreting his speaking- not because of his English, but just like one would read a portion of scripture and then expand on it. I quickly changed the channel and actually thought of calling the station and having a talk with the programs director.

When you say "They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately." this, to me, is the same as putting WL in the same category as Paul, Luke, John etc. you are saying he is special and that his interpretations are as important as scripture. It is the same as Peter's explanation “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” II Peter‬ *1:20-21‬ *NKJV‬‬.

The thing that really gets me is that if I look up the web site for the church in San Diego, there is no mention of WL or LSM. If the churches give such weight to WL/LSM, and feel his writings are for the completion of God's will. I would think it would be paramount to get this out. I'm thinking there is some shame in mentioning this special relationship with LSM, because the site leaves the impression that it's just a gathering of Christians not unlike all other Christian gatherings in San Diego. Yet the thing that really separates them is their yolk with LSM.

Drake, I see a problem with what you say are the beliefs of the LCs. Those beliefs separate any who would want to meet as the church if they do not agree with what you say is believed by the LC. Indeed, if I look at the web site for the C in SD, in their beliefs section, there is no mention of what you say are the beliefs. Would you say that the C in SD is not in fellowship with the other LCs or is there some craftiness going on here?

This is my experience of the LC bumping up against your beliefs, and it seems others that were in other locations have had similar experiences. I don't think any of the people that post who came out of an LC have turned their back on God, but have major problems with the current set up after the LSM takeover. The church should be the church of the believers with the like precious faith, not an organization that is run by a company where there is too much room for faults. There is not the spiritual checks and balances necessary for the consciences of the saints. So the LC is left with only those who follow the LSM, which is divisive.

Drake

01-15-2018, 10:41 AM

-1

thanks Boxjobox. You raise some excellent conversation points.

First one is that people reading the Truth Lessons gave you the feeling that they were elevating Brother Lee's writings above the Bible. I do not understand how that practice would be any cause for concern because those truth lessons are in that way no different than christian study material one might find in a typical Sunday School class or a Bible study class. Its a study in mutuality around a particular topic. Assuming you attend a Sunday School class of some sort, do you not have material already designated provided by some ministry? Even free groups, such as the house church movement, have study material that is centered around their beliefs and practices. There are very few christian groups that do not follow some type of ministry and read and study the beliefs and practices of the group they are apart of. I do not see how the practice of studying christian writings in any christian group can be cause for concern (your objection to this was not the content of the truth lessons but "everyone sitting around in a circle reading from the Truth Lesson book").

Second point is the "special calling". Understand that the special calling, calling it a special calling, or teaching it as a special calling, did not originate with Witness Lee. It started with Watchman Nee in the booklet "What are We?" available online at LSM.org to read for free. Suggest reading that, but how it is articulated is as gracious a christian thought as ever there was one. It is not placing a burden on other christians to comply or conform, it is simply stating that the Lord has revealed a special work in these days and if a person hears and accepts the Spirit's call they may participate and if not they are free to follow the Lord's leading in their own life. In every detail this calling is aligned with scripture. That is not elitist, nor is it placing anyone or anything above scripture or the biblical revelation. Rather, it is the biblical revelation entrusted to us not because we think we are superior but because we were called to it. It is not above the scripture or a private interpretation, rather is a rightly dividing the scripture, cutting straight the word of truth, or correctly handling the word of truth as stated in 1 Timothy 2:15.

Last point about the local church and the beliefs concerning the work of ministry, and San Diego as an example. I believe that website strikes exactly the right balance... the beliefs are focused on the christian faith, the Bible, God, salvation, and the church as the Body of Christ. The links section show the affiliation with the work of ministry. That is the precise relationship that is proper and scriptural between a local church and the work of ministry. The beliefs are eternal, unchanging, fixed. Should the Lord delay the links could change or perhaps the Lord will raise others to stand on the shoulders of Watchman Nee/Witness Lee in the same way we stand on others the Lord raised up before us. For now, in this era/age, those links are proper and in the right place. I do not rule out the possibility that the Lord could raise up another group of people to complete the age but for now, it has not been revealed to us. Yet we cannot reject what the Lord has shown us for His revelation is progressive.

Boxjobox, in the above I just want to be clear that I am not dismissing your experience or point of view. I am providing my own and though it differs from yours I absolutely believe you must follow your leading before the Lord. You will not be ultimately judged by me, or anyone else, but by the Lord at His Bema as will I, as will Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. I hope you also will allow that the Christians in the local churches must also follow the Lord's leading according to what He has shown them. A major gap in our different points of view concerns the work of ministry and the role and service of that work to the local churches. I have provided my scriptural explanation for this relationship.

Drake

kumbaya

01-15-2018, 12:43 PM

When you say "They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately." this, to me, is the same as putting WL in the same category as Paul, Luke, John etc. you are saying he is special and that his interpretations are as important as scripture. It is the same as Peter's explanation “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” II Peter‬ *1:20-21‬ *NKJV‬‬.

Great verse to quote from II Peter! I'm not sure I've seen it written but definitely was taught, growing up in the LC, that WN and WL were apostles- like Paul.

I don't think I remember hearing any sort of comparison between them as to who was greater- it was explained more that it was equal.

Like I said, I don't know if it was printed but it was definitely taught in our locality. It was and still is presented in a way of WN and WL being the HIGHEST Christian authorities that provided the CORRECT way to move forward in Christian history, to "recover" the church.

It's interesting how all other fundamentalist/totalist groups also have such a set apart, strict culture and elite calling apart from other Christians.

But the LC is different, right?

Sorry, don't buy it!

You can't systemize the body of Christ, God, Jesus with a business meant to "carry out" God's eternal purpose as proposed by two men. Not to mention, two men that 99% of Christians (assuming) don't agree with.

Paul was an apostle and wrote a lot of the New Testament. EVERY protestant agrees with Martin Luther on justification by faith.

MOST Christians DO NOT believe WN and WL were apostles. It's outrageous in my opinion, to claim they were.

kumbaya

01-15-2018, 12:50 PM

Drake,

In your opinion, why do Christians on campus (college ministry of LC) not call themselves, "The church in <BLANK> Student Center?"

Why do they use terms like "inoculate" (personally heard this) when teaching you how to minister to college students about not only the Bible, but the writings of WL.

My point is, there's a reason why WL's name isn't paraded around. If it drew people in, they'd be using it.

Drake

01-15-2018, 01:09 PM

Drake,

In your opinion, why do Christians on campus (college ministry of LC) not call themselves, "The church in <BLANK> Student Center?"

kumbaya,

Because the work of ministry does not equal the local church.

Why do they use terms like "inoculate" (personally heard this) when teaching you how to minister to college students about not only the Bible, but the writings of WL.

You'll have to provide the specific use case then I can answer.

My point is, there's a reason why WL's name isn't paraded around. If it drew people in, they'd be using it.

It is not paraded around because that work isn't about Witness Lee.

kumbaya, you did ask me to leave you alone. Are you sure about this?

Drake

leastofthese

01-15-2018, 06:00 PM

It is not paraded around because that work isn't about Witness Lee.

Kumbaya,

Maybe Drake is speaking... ironically? Everyone that reading this that has "touched" the LSM churches knows that his statement isn't true. The work isn't just about Witness Lee it is for Witness Lee.

The Campus Ministries have a prescribed method for "gaining" college students - I believe it was created in Texas - then distributed from Anaheim. This method includes not talking about Witness Lee at first. In fact, they are told not to invite college students to the LSM churches right away, but instead 1ST "Fellowship", 2ND bring to home meetings, then 3RD invite them to church.

Don't misunderstand, they WILL preach Witness Lee, but just not use his name at first. You can't have these college students reading anything on the internet about their great leader. As one "elder" said to me - the LSM churches (obvious paraphrase) have a "PR issue" and a simple investment in a PR firm would go a long way.

HERn

01-15-2018, 07:08 PM

In my locality the college ministry had its own Sunday morning service, to which none of the saints were invited, for the new ones. It was even at the same time as the table meeting I believe. The full timers could not chance the new contacts being terrified by a real LSM LC table meeting. It was like presenting a false face to the newbies until they were strong enough for the meat of a real LSM LC church meeting.

Koinonia

01-15-2018, 07:29 PM

This is a practice that originated in Austin and was then exported elsewhere. I have heard it referred to as a "porch meeting"--something about the porch of Solomon's temple being an entrance into the temple (the regular LC meeting). This "porch meeting" would be designed to look more like a service/meeting in "Christianity," and LSM materials would not be (explicitly) used.

aron

01-16-2018, 03:45 AM

One of the big eye-openers for me was to see the Eastern Lightning recruiting guidelines. First, just look like 'plain vanilla' Christians. Get them to open up, let down the guards of caution. Second, establish relations. We are your freinds! Then comes dependency and commitment. Third, convince them that everyone else is wrong, & we alone have the 'recovered truth'. Our leader is God's special anointed vessel. Submit and you will know true happiness.

Step by step, they are led into the group's conceptual overlays, and away from what Paul called "the simplicity of the gospel" (2 Cor 11:3). And the only difference that I could see about the EL was that it was so obvious with them. No pretense or subtleties with that group. But in the child I could see the parent (LSM).

Drake

01-16-2018, 07:59 AM

-1

Nice reporting aron. Right up there with the Weekly World News and Bat Boy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Boy_(character)

:lol:

Boxjobox

01-16-2018, 09:03 AM

thanks Boxjobox. You raise some excellent conversation points...

Drake, I heard the Bema exhortation before from a local church member when, after meeting one of their members a number of years after I walked away from the LC. I asked the person "are you still following WL?", his response was "we don't follow a man". We had a small discussion about that point and he eventually said " if you were an Israelite in Egypt wouldn't you follow Moses?", justifying the following of WL. Then came the "meet you at the bema seat" statement.

My view is that WL both was largely instrumental in raising up LCs in the US and also wholly responsible for tearing them down, and he did this through insisting that every LC would be married to the LSM. The LSM is the husband of every proper LC. Without being wed to and staying married to the LSM, an LC becomes a divorced or shamed woman. This marriage actually produces a disfunctional family which destroys the whole idea of the local church that should have been established. In reality, the local church should have been local, with Christ as the head, but in actuality, and it doesn't matter how you want to bend and weave around it, WL/LSM is the head of the LC. I, for one, write this post because I am quite saddened that this is the case- that what could have been a real work of the Lord, was usurped by the work of a man. I did go and read the W Née "What are we?" writing. This really stood out to me. "When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.". If only WL would have learned this lesson from WN; the LCs could have been truly a recovered truth. Instead, a man created a business out of "ministry", married it to a Bible truth and destroyed the work that had been a long time making. It will only be that when the LCs divorce themselves from LSM that the truth will be restored.

Drake- look at the C in SD web site- history of section- no mention of WL, LSM? Come now, the married woman is afraid or ashamed to mention her husband! She wants to attract the lonely seeker with a smiling face, while sitting at home is the mean old man that will put the innocent seeker into indentured servitude. The seeker will then find out the attractive woman is a trap to catch souls for the husband's business. The seeker will either submit to the husband or run away and have a certain fear of ever trusting a simple Christian message again.

Drake, I think there is one standing outside a closed door knocking, saying be zealous and repent. The question is, is the LC movement so filled that they don't want to open that door? I hope not. I think the first thing would be to admit the real relationship between the LSM and the LC is the work of man, not the Holy Spirit.

aron

01-16-2018, 10:27 AM

Nice reporting aron. Right up there . . .

Sorry you couldn't learn anything from that.

But I know the party line is "No connection whatever" with the cultic spin-offs. Anything otherwise, as the LC elder put it, and we have a "PR problem." Well, you have a lot of them, so keep on manning the pumps.

But I see the opening gambit, "We are just Christians" used by those who have long since left the simplicity of the gospel and are looking to drag others along. Both EL and LSM.

And it's true, Christianty is devilish, satanic, fallen, dark and all the rest. But your proposed alternative makes people worse off than before. At least sinners know they're enslaved.

I know this wasn't your experience, but it was for many. What do you suppose the churn rate is for LC youth, who have 18+ years of close observation?

Drake

01-16-2018, 01:12 PM

Sorry you couldn't learn anything from that.

But I know the party line is "No connection whatever" with the cultic spin-offs. Anything otherwise, as the LC elder put it, and we have a "PR problem." Well, you have a lot of them, so keep on manning the pumps.

But I see the opening gambit, "We are just Christians" used by those who have long since left the simplicity of the gospel and are looking to drag others along. Both EL and LSM.

And it's true, Christianty is devilish, satanic, fallen, dark and all the rest. But your proposed alternative makes people worse off than before. At least sinners know they're enslaved.

I know this wasn't your experience, but it was for many. What do you suppose the churn rate is for LC youth, who have 18+ years of close observation?

Actually aron, I have learned a few things from your oft repeated false argument to associate the riotous, murdering, head stomping, blasphemous female Christ, know as Eastern Lightning with the Living Stream Ministry.

First, I learned that the false argument of guilt by association is alive and well in your posts.

Second, I learned that even christians can and do fabricate the truth and through thoughtlessness and carelessness have no consideration for the persecution they potentially heap on dear brothers and sisters in China who living under a repressive regime may suffer as a result of their false accusation.

Third, I learned that stories about Bat Boy though patently fabricated yet purport to be factual can gain traction if repeated often enough.

Drake

Ohio

01-16-2018, 01:23 PM

First, I learned that the false argument of guilt by association is alive and well in your posts.

Second, I learned that even christians can and do fabricate the truth and through thoughtlessness and carelessness have no consideration for the persecution they potentially heap on dear brothers and sisters in China who living under a repressive regime may suffer as a result of their false accusation.

Third, I learned that stories about Bat Boy though patently fabricated yet purport to be factual can gain traction if repeated often enough.

Drake
That's so ironic, Drake.

Because I learned the same about W. Lee when he covered over the obnoxious sins of his degenerate sons by fabricating patently false accusations against men of God (John Ingalls et. al.) who were brave enough to speak their conscience in that oppressive system.

So whether or not Eastern Lightning was birthed by W. Lee's self-exalting teachings and practices is still questionable, his profligate sons Timothy and Philip are not.

Amazing how that works, don't you think?

Drake

01-16-2018, 01:41 PM

Drake, I heard the Bema exhortation before from a local church member when, after meeting one of their members a number of years after I walked away from the LC. I asked the person "are you still following WL?", his response was "we don't follow a man". We had a small discussion about that point and he eventually said " if you were an Israelite in Egypt wouldn't you follow Moses?", justifying the following of WL. Then came the "meet you at the bema seat" statement.

My view is that WL both was largely instrumental in raising up LCs in the US and also wholly responsible for tearing them down, and he did this through insisting that every LC would be married to the LSM. The LSM is the husband of every proper LC. Without being wed to and staying married to the LSM, an LC becomes a divorced or shamed woman. This marriage actually produces a disfunctional family which destroys the whole idea of the local church that should have been established. In reality, the local church should have been local, with Christ as the head, but in actuality, and it doesn't matter how you want to bend and weave around it, WL/LSM is the head of the LC. I, for one, write this post because I am quite saddened that this is the case- that what could have been a real work of the Lord, was usurped by the work of a man. I did go and read the W Née "What are we?" writing. This really stood out to me. "When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.". If only WL would have learned this lesson from WN; the LCs could have been truly a recovered truth. Instead, a man created a business out of "ministry", married it to a Bible truth and destroyed the work that had been a long time making. It will only be that when the LCs divorce themselves from LSM that the truth will be restored.

Drake- look at the C in SD web site- history of section- no mention of WL, LSM? Come now, the married woman is afraid or ashamed to mention her husband! She wants to attract the lonely seeker with a smiling face, while sitting at home is the mean old man that will put the innocent seeker into indentured servitude. The seeker will then find out the attractive woman is a trap to catch souls for the husband's business. The seeker will either submit to the husband or run away and have a certain fear of ever trusting a simple Christian message again.

Drake, I think there is one standing outside a closed door knocking, saying be zealous and repent. The question is, is the LC movement so filled that they don't want to open that door? I hope not. I think the first thing would be to admit the real relationship between the LSM and the LC is the work of man, not the Holy Spirit.

Thanks Boxjobox,

First, the BEMA is real. I cannot speak for the one that mentioned it to you first, but if you read my comment on it, I applied to myself, Witness Lee, and Watchman Nee as well. Every christian will be judged at the Bema for how they build on the foundation. Ultimately, He is the righteous Judge and I am certain we both agree on that. Though it may not have been presented to you in a considerate way it is nevertheless an important event that we should have in view while in this life.

Yet, I still do not understand what is your view on the New Testament work of ministry.... the scriptural view of course. Because, the situation can be cast in any number of ways, but the glaring vacancy in your description is that there appears to be no work of ministry to care for and shepherd the local churches. You are someone that at an earlier time was impressed with the teaching about the local churches and enjoyed the church life for some time. Along comes LSM and asserts itself as "the husband of every LC" in your view..... but to that I say, not so at all. I never felt LSM was a husband in the half dozen churches I was in for forty years. Not one iota. Not even a little bit. But then, I understood the relationship to be the legitimate work of ministry according to the scriptures for the building up of the local churches, not a husband because we have only one Husband. So we are servants with a commission obligated to carry out our function before the Lord. The work of ministry is not the duty of a husband, rather it is a service to local churches to build the Body of Christ. If you do not have the scriptural definition of the work of ministry in your understanding then you will misinterpret the relationship between the work of ministry and the local churches.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if the history tab on the SD local church website mentions Brother Lee. If the connection is important it is in the Link tab and there you will find it. I would prefer the history not mention the work through which it came about because each local church was raised up by the Lord no matter which servant was the instrument. Yet, no one is distancing themselves from LSM.... even the Church in Cleveland links themselves to LSM!

thanks for the dialogue
Drake

aron

01-16-2018, 03:43 PM

Actually aron, I have learned a few things from your oft repeated false argument to associate the riotous, murdering, head stomping, blasphemous female Christ, know as Eastern Lightning with the Living Stream Ministry.

First, I learned that the false argument of guilt by association is alive and well in your posts.

Second, I learned that even christians can and do fabricate the truth and through thoughtlessness and carelessness have no consideration for the persecution they potentially heap on dear brothers and sisters in China who living under a repressive regime may suffer as a result of their false accusation.

Third, I learned that stories about Bat Boy though patently fabricated yet purport to be factual can gain traction if repeated often enough.

Drake

Perhaps you're right, and the similar deceptive recruiting styles are coincidental and not associated. Ditto for the isolation of members practised by both groups. And the exaltation of 'untouchable' leaders.

Perhaps. But maybe the similarities are telling us something, and people need to be warned, by pointing out the result of Bat Boy Theology. One minister per age, anyone? Deputy God? Today's Moses?

I've been posting on this forum for a while and don't recall many responses like yours. But maybe you have special, LSM-derived powers of perception. Or denial.

You say it's a false argument: Group B comes from Group A, documented; engages in similar recruiting & control practices, also documented. . . "Guilt by association"? Perhaps. But perhaps people need to be warned. The Apple didn't fall too far from the tree.

Of course there are differences. When members of Group A tried to call WL God, he strongly demurred. (That was, however, before the "becoming God" teaching). Leadership of Group B took the claim & ran with it. And Group B is violent; Group A rarely so. But both are deceptive, manipulating, controlling, isolating. Perhaps that's worth noting.

aron

01-16-2018, 04:11 PM

Whether or not Eastern Lightning was birthed by W. Lee's self-exalting teachings and practices is still questionable, his profligate sons Timothy and Philip are not.

Ohio, don't you know that Daystar & PL are tired, old claims?

That's similar to what the bank robber said when he was caught in California with the loot. He told the judge, "What happened in Oregon is old news. I'm focused on the present."

Ohio

01-16-2018, 05:23 PM

Ohio, don't you know that Daystar & PL are tired, old claims?

All church history is old and tired until we breathe new life into it -- usually by not learning from it, and repeating others' failures.

John Ingalls' account in STTIL was "old and tired," forgotten, and banished to the recycle bin until LSM played doctor and quarantined the Midwest.

Ohio

01-16-2018, 05:28 PM

My view is that WL both was largely instrumental in raising up LCs in the US and also wholly responsible for tearing them down, and he did this through insisting that every LC would be married to the LSM. The LSM is the husband of every proper LC. Without being wed to and staying married to the LSM, an LC becomes a divorced or shamed woman. This marriage actually produces a dysfunctional family which destroys the whole idea of the local church that should have been established. In reality, the local church should have been local, with Christ as the head, but in actuality, and it doesn't matter how you want to bend and weave around it, WL/LSM is the head of the LC.

I, for one, write this post because I am quite saddened that this is the case- that what could have been a real work of the Lord, was usurped by the work of a man. I did go and read the W Née "What are we?" writing. This really stood out to me. "When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.".

If only WL would have learned this lesson from WN; the LCs could have been truly a recovered truth. Instead, a man created a business out of "ministry", married it to a Bible truth and destroyed the work that had been a long time making. It will only be that when the LCs divorce themselves from LSM that the truth will be restored.

Drake- look at the C in SD web site- history of section- no mention of WL, LSM? Come now, the married woman is afraid or ashamed to mention her husband! She wants to attract the lonely seeker with a smiling face, while sitting at home is the mean old man that will put the innocent seeker into indentured servitude. The seeker will then find out the attractive woman is a trap to catch souls for the husband's business. The seeker will either submit to the husband or run away and have a certain fear of ever trusting a simple Christian message again.

Great summation of LC history, Boxjobox.

Drake

01-16-2018, 06:35 PM

Aron>”You say it's a false argument”

Yep. Yours is a false argument... you are applying the actions of one group to another through a circumstantial link.

Here is another false argument example. Hitler was a German and wanted to kill Jews and did when he had the chance. You are also German therefore you also want to kill Jews and would if you had the chance. The absurdity of that false argument won’t get by most people, your false argument is just more subtle.

But here the tragedy Aron. The Chinese government searches the internet for every shred of evidence to condemn and justify prosecution of not only the murderous Eastern Lightening cult (who should be persecuted) but also the precious brothers and sisters that make up the majority of Christians in China labeled as Shouters by the government. Both are perceived as threats to their government. By your reckless, unfounded, and false association you may be contributing to their persecution and creating an offense against His little ones. Do not think that your words are hidden from the Chinese government and don’t think they are not searching and scanning. But for the sake of expressing a vindictive opinion in a pubic forum you would potentially throw them under the bus without a care. Be more selective in your battles Aron so you don’t cause harm to the innocent.

I requested this of you in the past and doing so here again.

Drake

kumbaya

01-16-2018, 06:59 PM

kumbaya,

Because the work of ministry does not equal the local church.

You'll have to provide the specific use case then I can answer.

It is not paraded around because that work isn't about Witness Lee.

kumbaya, you did ask me to leave you alone. Are you sure about this?

Drake

Ok- several issues going on here.

First, I'm open to discussing things but as I mentioned several weeks ago- I was in a really emotional place realizing all this about the LC and right off the bat- you insinuated that I may not be who I was claiming to be (child of an elder). After that, you avoided many questions which I'm assuming it was just bc you didn't have a good answer for it but would call me out of the teeniest of errors and basically "shamed" me for accidentally using a quote that Gloria Steinem took from the Bible.

You were obviously picking on me a bit- no denying that. So yeah, I told you to stop. But I'm in no way scared of discussing things with you if you can stick to some basic rules of communication. 1) answer the question/the whole one 2) give someone the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise

Those two are probably the most important. If you can do that- I'm fine discussing anything with you or anyone else on here.

Given those guidelines and going back to the point....

I asked you why Christians on Campus didn't call themselves "The church in <BLANK *city*> Student Center" and you responded with....

"Because the work of ministry does not equal the local church."

I agree that the work is different. I was implying that the PEOPLE leading Christians on Campus are all members in the LC. Yes, the work is different because you're reaching out to college students. They would have "porch meetings" singing basic hymns and then about 3-4 college/post college students would stand up and give their testimonies (obviously talking about their college experience and life as related to being in Christians on campus, all positive of course!) So yes, the work is different but it's still the same group of people and they are literally EMPLOYED by the LC. Just that fact alone makes it seem a bit deceiving that they're calling THIS group something else. They could even call themselves, "Christians on Campus"- student association of the Church in <Blank>. So, why don't they? Just be upfront about who you are- other groups of Christians have no issue doing this with their college ministries. That's a healthy practice with college ministry. The fact that the name is different when they're employed by the LC is a red flag- right off the bat!

Did you know it's a common cult practice to have recruiting arms that have different names than the groups they're trying to recruit for?

Do you think it's OK for the local church to fall in line with such a misleading practice that's used in Scientology and other cults?

I personally don't. Just be honest about who your group is! To IGNORE that they're wanting to raise up full-timers full the "Lord's move" in Europe- seems ridiculous! That's definitely what the "blending brothers" are saying is the "Lord's move." You seriously don't think Christians on Campus has anything to do with them trying to accomplish that goal? Who signs the paycheck for Christian's workers? THE LOCAL CHURCH. We'll just have to agree to disagree that they're not trying to gain full-timers with that college ministry! I just know- I'm constantly hearing about it the "Lord's move in Europe" and I'm not even going to meetings! There are trips, posts on Facebook about it, etc. Several of my family members just got back from Europe- and have been multiple times. It sure would seem like they're trying to make that move less "scary" by offering up "blending trips." That can easily be an "escape" for people and it can be used in an exploitive way- no doubt.

Meanwhile, I can think of 3 former church kids with terrible health situations in their families. Where's the organized effort there? I know these families disappointment because I've talked to them They've personally told me they feel abandoned. I do too- so I can't even imagine the level they feel it! The LC isn't doing a great job of "shepherding" in the US to the people who actually need it. Before you go off to another country, and leave your family- shouldn't you have a stronger "base" first in the US? Sorry, but it seems like a desperate attempt to get people deeper in, and farther from their lives and connections with friends/family in the US.

I just don't think the pressure they're putting on people is ethical, even if it is unspoken... many times it's not! That's definitely the "hype" right now and there's a clear feeling of being "left out" if you can't go on these trips.

Also, you broke the first rule- Drake. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt in our discussion now as you haven't accepted these ground rules yet ;) You didn't acknowledge the comment I made about using the term "inoculate" to train LC members in the practice of mentioning WL's name briefly, then later when they look up negative things about WL- there's sort of a diffusement that's already occurred. I didn't just hear the term "inoculate" - I heard it described to me in exactly that way. So again, what do you think about that?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the reason that WL's name isn't paraded around. I feel it's a little hypocritical to say that the work isn't about WL because he was sort of claiming to be the "minister of the age" and it was his work (mainly-not clearly defined by WN on how the "work" was carried out in the LC. WN's teaching's could have been interpreted in many different outcomes- with LSM never even existing and the practices/culture completely different!)

That's somewhat besides the point, but we can agree to disagree on why WL's name isn't mentioned too much in Christians on campus, and just in the LC....

If you want to stick to your idea that this is just bc the work of the ministry is different than the work of the local church (which I already mentioned that wasn't my point- it's about having the same people running it), then ok. But you don't think that it's even a POSSIBILITY, even a small one, that his name isn't mentioned bc we all know one google search of WL's name will send those poor college kids running?

In your opinion, there's not even the slightest chance that's why they don't mention his name? You don't even think that's PART of the reason? Come on...what about the practice of "inoculating" college students that was taught to me? Do you honestly believe that doesn't happen? If it does, does that contradict and possibly change your stance on why WL's isn't mentioned much with Christians on campus?

Again, if you want to agree to those guidelines.... then let's discuss it.

I really want someone in the LC to answer these questions for me.

If not you, then someone else!