Smoking Gun?

[awareness]

“Remaining in the Unique New Testament Ministry of God’s Economy under the Proper Leadership in His Move” Chapter 1 Section 13 has quotes of Witness Lee on ministers of the age, the ministry of the age, and its leader.... clearly himself.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
It must be me again. For me chapter 1 only goes up to section 10.

[Ohio]

But, the real problem came when brothers were ousted from meeting with the church because they didn't accept the Lee-as-MOTA doctrine. That was a violation of the principle of the ground of oneness, the very principle upon which the local churches were supposed to be established. At that moment if not before the local churches became sectarian. Is Christ divided? Was Witness Lee crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Witness Lee?

This is exactly true.

The "Ground of Oneness" was explicitly defined by Nee's book The Normal Christian Church Life. Read that book.

It specifically states, in no uncertain terms, that nothing like a MOTA could exist, and anything like a MOTA would divide the church.

When Lee was asked about these glaring contradictions, he basically responded, "who do you think you are, I was there when Nee spoke those messages?"

[Koinonia]

But, the real problem came when brothers were ousted from meeting with the church because they didn't accept the Lee-as-MOTA doctrine. That was a violation of the principle of the ground of oneness, the very principle upon which the local churches were supposed to be established. At that moment if not before the local churches became sectarian. Is Christ divided? Was Witness Lee crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Witness Lee?


And this is exactly why the LC is not what it claims to be--at all. Over the years, it has morphed from an attempt at oneness into the affiliation of Witness Lee, and LC leaders have done everything to enforce this.

[ZNPaaneah]

This is exactly true.

The "Ground of Oneness" was explicitly defined by Nee's book The Normal Christian Church Life. Read that book.

It specifically states, in no uncertain terms, that nothing like a MOTA could exist, and anything like a MOTA would divide the church.

When Lee was asked about these glaring contradictions, he basically responded, "who do you think you are, I was there when Nee spoke those messages?"

Like WL's messages I suppose WN's spoken messages were quite different from the edited written ones.

[Ohio]

And this is exactly why the LC is not what it claims to be--at all. Over the years, it has morphed from an attempt at oneness into the affiliation of Witness Lee, and LC leaders have done everything to enforce this.
And anyone that resists the "morphing" will be eliminated!

[ZNPaaneah]

And this is exactly why the LC is not what it claims to be--at all. Over the years, it has morphed from an attempt at oneness into the affiliation of Witness Lee, and LC leaders have done everything to enforce this.

I don't think the evidence supports the idea that the "Ground of the Church" doctrine was ever an attempt at oneness. I think it was an attempt to get a monopoly on the saints and make merchandise of the saints.

Now I suppose you could think that WN and WL were naive enough to think it was scriptural, perhaps we'll never know for sure until the Lord's coming. But dismissive claims like Ohio just pointed out "who do you think you are, I was there" is the kind of argument devoid of any scriptural support that would expect from someone who knew it was bunk.

[Ohio]

Like WL's messages I suppose WN's spoken messages were quite different from the edited written ones.
Possibly, but Nee's book was popular in the US long before Lee came, and LSM's furtive tactics were developed.

[ZNPaaneah]

Possibly, but Nee's book was popular in the US long before Lee came, and LSM's furtive tactics were developed.

That is why it doesn't make sense to me. Nee was obviously an educated, intelligent man who knew how to expound the Bible. He taught that when you teach the word you have to discern between the black and white teaching and teachings based on types and shadows. Nee taught that you can't use types and shadows to build a teaching, only to support and develop a black and white teaching from the NT.

So then, how could the centerpiece of his ministry, the teaching he would have spent the most time speaking on and defending, how is this teaching based on types and shadows and inferences?

[Ohio]

That is why it doesn't make sense to me. Nee was obviously an educated, intelligent man who knew how to expound the Bible. He taught that when you teach the word you have to discern between the black and white teaching and teachings based on types and shadows. Nee taught that you can't use types and shadows to build a teaching, only to support and develop a black and white teaching from the NT.

So then, how could the centerpiece of his ministry, the teaching he would have spent the most time speaking on and defending, how is this teaching based on types and shadows and inferences?

Nee was convinced, possibly by Chinese xenophobic sentiments, that the churches should be local, so-called Antioch style, based exclusively on Revelations chapters 2 and 3. This all changed in the end when Nee adopted the Jerusalem principle, with centralized authority over all LC's. Lee in the US also made the same transition, starting out with Antioch and ending with Jerusalem. Localism in today's LC's is merely a ruse.

Concerning the MOTA paradigm, Nee's book The Normal Christian Church Life was spoken/written by Nee before his excommunication in the 1930's. His book Spiritual Authority was spoken/written after his return to ministry in the late 1940's. Nee went thru serious changes while in ministerial exile. Types and shadows were then used when plain scripture was lacking. Lee also passed thru the same transition, initially during the January 1974 elders training and finalizing during the "New Way."

[awareness]

And anyone that resists the "morphing" will be eliminated!
I didn't use that term back then, but that's exacting what I thought was happening when the MOTA thing came along : Morphing. Being a Bible thumper I termed it falling into Laodicea.

I can't tell you all the hours I spent praying over it. I honestly felt the Lord wanted me to do all I could to prevent it.

Fat chance. It was time that the rank and file fall in line under the one supreme leader.

I was reading books on oneness back then. I saw clearly that the ground of oneness wasn't living up to its claims.

I don't remember now which book it was, maybe "The Spirit of Love" but William Law pointed out, in a nutshell, that, we're all one in the Spirit but, it is brotherly love that works it out.

So I thought we were falling out of Philadelphia into Laodicea. I went around sharing what Law said about brotherly love. It fell on deaf ears.

Those were the days when we were to fall in line with the supreme leader. That's what it was all about.

And so, me, a brother speaking about brotherly love, me, a brother that loved Christ and the Church, me, a brother that loved God and the Bible, me, a brother that loved Nee and Lee, me, a burning brother, got booted out for not accepting the MOTA Flow of Oneness.

That's right, in those days the MOTA doctrine came down from Anaheim as : "The Flow of Oneness."

Weren't we standing on that already? That wasn't enough. And brotherly love wasn't enough. Now we had to declare brotherLee love too. And good burning brothers like me, and many others, were pushed off 'the ground of oneness' over the new ground of oneness : Witness Lee as the MOTA.

That wasn't just a little bit divisive. Now we weren't only one with all Christians in the city, we weren't even one with our own members.

And talk about divisive. I have it from good authority, from the brother that caused it, a early Elden Hall brother. A couple years or so after I left the Church in Ft. Lauderdale, they had a meeting that almost broke out into a fist fight over the MOTA.

The end result. Those loyal to the MOTA, around 40 of them, left and declared the ground in Boca Raton. And after 3 decades they are still there. All 40 of them, minus some that have passed. And last time I checked, the church in Ft. Lauderdale isn't list as a local church by LSM.

"The Flow of Oneness?" Bahahahahahaha :hysterical:

[Ohio]

I can't tell you all the hours I spent praying over it. I honestly felt the Lord wanted me to do all I could to prevent it.

And so, me, a brother speaking about brotherly love, me, a brother that loved Christ and the Church, me, a brother that loved God and the Bible, me, a brother that loved Nee and Lee, me, a burning brother, got booted out for not accepting the MOTA Flow of Oneness.

That's right, in those days the MOTA doctrine came down from Anaheim as : "The Flow of Oneness."

You were a reformer. What you fought for was good. You fought for people, and their liberty in the Spirit.

Church history is filled with power-lusting Christian leaders who abused those who resisted.

Lee used his version of "THE TRUTH" to overcome the Bible's command to "put on love which binds us in perfect unity." (Col 3.14)

Here is another case where Lee assumed the Lord's rightful place. He identified his ministry with "the river of water of life proceeding from the throne of God." (Rev 22.1) What a deception! A publisher in CA became identified with the throne of God, and it was demanded of all the saints to be one with Lee himself, the so-called "Flow of Oneness."

THE living stream ministry. There was no other.

[ZNPaaneah]

Nee was convinced, possibly by Chinese xenophobic sentiments, that the churches should be local, so-called Antioch style, based exclusively on Revelations chapters 2 and 3. This all changed in the end when Nee adopted the Jerusalem principle, with centralized authority over all LC's. Lee in the US also made the same transition, starting out with Antioch and ending with Jerusalem. Localism in today's LC's is merely a ruse.

Concerning the MOTA paradigm, Nee's book The Normal Christian Church Life was spoken/written by Nee before his excommunication in the 1930's. His book Spiritual Authority was spoken/written after his return to ministry in the late 1940's. Nee went thru serious changes while in ministerial exile. Types and shadows were then used when plain scripture was lacking. Lee also passed thru the same transition, initially during the January 1974 elders training and finalizing during the "New Way."

I think many of his points about the church being local were valid based on the NT. It still doesn't explain building a whole teaching whole cloth out of an OT typology of the Temple. IMO his use of inference on those two NT verses were incredibly weak and ultimately a misapplication.

I get that he might have been biased. But every time they "take the ground" they give a message on the Ground of the Church. How many times could he have done that before seeing the error in the doctrine? I guess I have more respect for WN's understanding than others do. I just can't imagine him not recognizing the error.

[least]

I didn't use that term back then, but that's exacting what I thought was happening when the MOTA thing came along : Morphing. Being a Bible thumper I termed it falling into Laodicea.

I can't tell you all the hours I spent praying over it. I honestly felt the Lord wanted me to do all I could to prevent it.

Fat chance. It was time that the rank and file fall in line under the one supreme leader.

I was reading books on oneness back then. I saw clearly that the ground of oneness wasn't living up to its claims.

I don't remember now which book it was, maybe "The Spirit of Love" but William Law pointed out, in a nutshell, that, we're all one in the Spirit but, it is brotherly love that works it out.

So I thought we were falling out of Philadelphia into Laodicea. I went around sharing what Law said about brotherly love. It fell on deaf ears.

Those were the days when we were to fall in line with the supreme leader. That's what it was all about.

And so, me, a brother speaking about brotherly love, me, a brother that loved Christ and the Church, me, a brother that loved God and the Bible, me, a brother that loved Nee and Lee, me, a burning brother, got booted out for not accepting the MOTA Flow of Oneness.

That's right, in those days the MOTA doctrine came down from Anaheim as : "The Flow of Oneness."

Weren't we standing on that already? That wasn't enough. And brotherly love wasn't enough. Now we had to declare brotherLee love too. And good burning brothers like me, and many others, were pushed off 'the ground of oneness' over the new ground of oneness : Witness Lee as the MOTA.

That wasn't just a little bit divisive. Now we weren't only one with all Christians in the city, we weren't even one with our own members.

And talk about divisive. I have it from good authority, from the brother that caused it, a early Elden Hall brother. A couple years or so after I left the Church in Ft. Lauderdale, they had a meeting that almost broke out into a fist fight over the MOTA.

The end result. Those loyal to the MOTA, around 40 of them, left and declared the ground in Boca Raton. And after 3 decades they are still there. All 40 of them, minus some that have passed. And last time I checked, the church in Ft. Lauderdale isn't list as a local church by LSM.

"The Flow of Oneness?" Bahahahahahaha :hysterical:

I usually quickly glanced over Awareness' post. I had this: this one bitter and mean ...
This quoted post I actually calmly read through all of it, and I understand.
Hope you are serving the Lord and members of Christ body, with love; and preaching the gospel fervently.

[JJ]

It must be me again. For me chapter 1 only goes up to section 10.

I'm not sure why, awareness. There is a Section 13 of Chapter 1. Can you advance one section at a time, by clicking in the upper right corner?

Here's the link to what I'm trying to share again.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

[Ohio]

I'm not sure why, awareness. There is a Section 13 of Chapter 1. Can you advance one section at a time, by clicking in the upper right corner?

Here's the link to what I'm trying to share again.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

This link says "session timeout."

That's because it's tied to your IP number. LSM has all sorts of protections on its website. It has to keep all the riches from getting "stolen."

It's more secure than the Experian Credit Bureau.

[Ohio]

I think many of his points about the church being local were valid based on the NT. It still doesn't explain building a whole teaching whole cloth out of an OT typology of the Temple. IMO his use of inference on those two NT verses were incredibly weak and ultimately a misapplication.

I get that he might have been biased. But every time they "take the ground" they give a message on the Ground of the Church. How many times could he have done that before seeing the error in the doctrine? I guess I have more respect for WN's understanding than others do. I just can't imagine him not recognizing the error.
Which two NT verses?

[Drake]

I'm not sure why, awareness. There is a Section 13 of Chapter 1. Can you advance one section at a time, by clicking in the upper right corner?

Here's the link to what I'm trying to share again.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

Hi JJ,

As you read the online document at lsm.org just highlight and copy a sentence or phrase and then paste into your post on this site.... that way, we can use your copied sentence or phrase as a search criteria on the lsm.org site.

Thanks
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Which two NT verses?

Appoint elders in every church / appoint elders in every city.

[Meribah]

I suspect that the problems with the link may have sprung up in response to "someone" having read that this link was being used and , therefore, a "problem" arose. You get my drift.

While the Chinese conform to authority readily (and far too much, in my opinion), amazingly there seem to be many Americans doing the same and enjoying it. Some people enjoy being told what is right so that they do not have to think. And then they enjoy even more being told that only THEY are right for letting someone else tell them what is right. Crazy.

While I have not chosen to say that it is a cult in the sense that most think of when talking about cults, it IS definitely a cult of personality. Just think, though, WL has now had to face the Lord Jesus with all that he did--as we will. He has NOT gotten by with what he did and said. We know this. Those hurt by him can rest in this. The Lord's judgment is perfect and he is not ever fooled. Amen.

While there is truly only ONE mediator between GOD and man (our precious Lord Jesus), the LC has another mediator--one between them and the Word. So, from the ground up you have everyday saints, WL, the Word, Jesus, and God. Only WL could rightly divide the Word. Only WL can "see" the deeper things. Only WL's version is acceptable. This is the applied infallibility that I discussed--and it DOES exist. If it did not, there would be no need to remove things from the writing/speaking of WL that don't mesh with what is appropriate. They could leave it and just say, "Well, he is human and could NOT have been right about everything."

Standing between the saints and the Word is WL's interpretation shown in those awful, boring, sometimes really dumb and redundant footnotes. Gosh! How I h.a.t.e.d. Bible-reading with the saints! It went like this: read a prepositional phrase, read five footnotes; read another prepositional phrase, read three footnotes, etc. etc. Yawn. I once suggested that we all just read straight through the Word and THEN read the footnotes and not one other saint agreed to do so--they are THAT much in bondage to what WL has to say! And then we have those Life-Studies. Bigger yawn. The only things worth reading in there are those things from other saints. Now, mind you, these saints have to have been dead at least 100 years in order to be accepted and valued. No current saint-leader could be incorporated--because they probably "had nothing for him". Truth is, he probably did not dare quote anyone living lest some of his flock leave and follow THEM.

So, there may be only ONE mediator between God and man, but there is another sneaky little fellow serving as mediator between saints and the Word. The Word is Christ. And so, we just might have a mediator (Pope?) between man and Christ! An awful thing. If you cut saints off at the Word, you have total control.

When I was growing up in an evangelical church, some of us young people would ask, "How can newly saved people learn about the Lord enough from the Bible if no one is there to teach them?" They answered, "The Lord is faithful to guide a seeker to the food he needs in the Bible for his maturity level at that time." Made sense then. Makes sense now. I reject any mediator between me and the Word. Everyone else should also.

[Meribah]

And he did not DARE quote anyone living and still be able to say "poor, degraded Christianity" and not have some holes in his argument against them.

[Evangelical]

When I was growing up in an evangelical church, some of us young people would ask, "How can newly saved people learn about the Lord enough from the Bible if no one is there to teach them?" They answered, "The Lord is faithful to guide a seeker to the food he needs in the Bible for his maturity level at that time." Made sense then. Makes sense now. I reject any mediator between me and the Word. Everyone else should also.

I've known people that only read the Bible for them self without teachers and they are in most cases lacking even the basic doctrinal foundations or it takes them years to achieve the kind of growth that a person under a teacher would achieve. The Spirit is not a replacement for human teachers, theologians, Sunday School etc and I think any one of those highly educated doctors and pastors who wrote the "open letter" would agree.

What's the point of "Sunday school" then? This idea that we don't need teachers is a modern one, not found in the early church period, or in the Bible. The disciples of Jesus themselves had disciples under them, and these had disciples under them. Jesus established a pattern of discipleship which continued into the early church period.If a person has a teacher they can grow in their knowledge of God much faster than on their own.

There are teenagers in the local church who know the Bible better than a person in the denominations who has attended church all their lives for decades and being only drip fed by the pastor's sermons (which in many cases are not even biblical, being merely only instructional or concerned with ethics or social justice issues etc). This is also evident by the fact that a young person can deliver a biblical message in the meeting, almost as good as any adult, whereas most teenagers in any local denomination would struggle. Two reasons for this - the teenagers are treated like adults and expected to read the Word like everyone else (rather than play games), and secondly unlike in the denominations, the meeting environment encourages people to overcome their shyness and speak.

[Ohio]

While there is truly only ONE mediator between GOD and man (our precious Lord Jesus), the LC has another mediator--one between them and the Word. So, from the ground up you have everyday saints, WL, the Word, Jesus, and God. Only WL could rightly divide the Word. Only WL can "see" the deeper things. Only WL's version is acceptable. This is the applied infallibility that I discussed--and it DOES exist. If it did not, there would be no need to remove things from the writing/speaking of WL that don't mesh with what is appropriate. They could leave it and just say, "Well, he is human and could NOT have been right about everything."

Don Rutledge from Dallas relayed a story which occurred during the New Way. During fellowship one of Lee's adherents (Paul Hon?) talked about the flow from the throne in the Recovery -- "First the Father, then the Son, then the Spirit, then Brother Lee, ..."

When asked who was #5, he couldn't answer, since that would have to be Philip Lee, since all the other elders and co-workers (the future Blendeds) had to submit to him.

But, by all accounts, Phillip was not even saved, so what happened to the flow from the throne? :scratchhead:


And they used to condemn the Catholics because of the Pope. :rollingeyesfrown:

[Ohio]

And he did not DARE quote anyone living and still be able to say "poor, degraded Christianity" and not have some holes in his argument against them.

Oh he quoted them, just didn't provide the references.

[Ohio]

What's the point of "Sunday school" then? This idea that we don't need teachers is a modern one, not found in the early church period, or in the Bible. The disciples of Jesus themselves had disciples under them, and these had disciples under them. Jesus established a pattern of discipleship which continued into the early church period.If a person has a teacher they can grow in their knowledge of God much faster than on their own.

You may not hear this in the Recovery, but Heb 8.10-12 says:
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israelafter those days, says the Lord.
I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
11 No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more
I John 2.27 also speaks of the anointing teaching us, and we not needing the teachings of men.

Evangelical, here is the difference between the Bible and Lee -- Lee's teachings get between the Word and the children of God. Lee takes away their liberty to directly follow the Lord. I told you about how elders would be chastised publicly for attempting to follow the Lamb directly.

Real Shepherds and Teachers lead the saints and open up the Word, but do not get between them. In Acts 20.30 Paul warns us about those who rise up teaching perverted things, and drawing the saints after themselves, rather than leading them to the Lord. This aptly describes Lee and his ministry.

[Evangelical]

You may not hear this in the Recovery, but Heb 8.10-12 says:
I John 2.27 also speaks of the anointing teaching us, and we not needing the teachings of men.

Evangelical, here is the difference between the Bible and Lee -- Lee's teachings get between the Word and the children of God. Lee takes away their liberty to directly follow the Lord. I told you about how elders would be chastised publicly for attempting to follow the Lamb directly.

Real Shepherds and Teachers lead the saints and open up the Word, but do not get between them. In Acts 20.30 Paul warns us about those who rise up teaching perverted things, and drawing the saints after themselves, rather than leading them to the Lord. This aptly describes Lee and his ministry.

How is "getting between" even possible? Doesn't that apply to any devotional or bible assist?

I think you are mistaken about the context of those verses, but anyway - no one has ever gotten between me and the Word when I have morning revival. Everyone is encouraged to develop their own relationship with God. In fact "go to the Lord" is one of the most frequently heard sayings.

[leastofthese]

There are teenagers in the local church who know the Bible better than a person in the denominations who has attended church all their lives for decades and being only drip fed by the pastor's sermons (which in many cases are not even biblical, being merely only instructional or concerned with ethics or social justice issues etc). This is also evident by the fact that a young person can deliver a biblical message in the meeting, almost as good as any adult, whereas most teenagers in any local denomination would struggle. Two reasons for this - the teenagers are treated like adults and expected to read the Word like everyone else (rather than play games), and secondly unlike in the denominations, the meeting environment encourages people to overcome their shyness and speak.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends.

As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Ohio]

How is "getting between" even possible? Doesn't that apply to any devotional or bible assist?

I think you are mistaken about the context of those verses, but anyway - no one has ever gotten between me and the Word when I have morning revival. Everyone is encouraged to develop their own relationship with God. In fact "go to the Lord" is one of the most frequently heard sayings.

I clearly explained one method by which Lee robbed the other leaders of following the Lord directly -- public shaming and humiliations. Lee made all his adherents afraid of doing anything "independently" without him. They approached him as lap dogs looking for direction. Once he trained his closest circle, they repeated this method of fleshly controls.

This is a primary way Lee got between the Word and the brothers.

During the New Way, leaders continually protested Lee's controlling ways. Then Lee would say from the podium, "Who do I control? I can't even control a mosquito." All the brothers who could not stomach the manipulation or the hypocrisy left. Ask them. Read their accounts.

Does anyone think that every set of LC elders around the world voluntarily abrogated their God given responsibility to feed and shepherd their saints? Fear of retribution guided them.

[Koinonia]

How is "getting between" even possible? Doesn't that apply to any devotional or bible assist?

The difference is that in the LC you will be expected to have "morning revival" using a rehash of Witness Lee (HWMR) every single morning for the rest of your life.

[awareness]

I usually quickly glanced over Awareness' post. I had this: this one bitter and mean ...
This quoted post I actually calmly read through all of it, and I understand.
Hope you are serving the Lord and members of Christ body, with love; and preaching the gospel fervently.
Thanks much brother or sister least. And back at ya.

[JJ]

Hi JJ,

As you read the online document at lsm.org just highlight and copy a sentence or phrase and then paste into your post on this site.... that way, we can use your copied sentence or phrase as a search criteria on the lsm.org site.

Thanks
Drake

Sorry for the confusion, Drake. I’m trying to respect LSM copyright by not copying. Do you not see which books, chapters, sections, are cited? Read them in their context.

My point is not that a singular sentence or phrase tells you “I am the Minister of the Age”. Like Watchman Née before him, Witness Lee never said those words directly. He said it over and over in different ways indirectly by: citing examples of Noah, David, Paul, Luther, Darby, Nee while talking about “the ministry of the age”, then immediately talking about how in his ministry he followed Nee who was a minister of the age; by giving examples of brothers who didn’t follow him and issuing dire warnings not to do that; by saying “the army needs a commander in chief”, and other similar things, while also saying he wasn’t ordering anyone to do anything.

How else were we to interpret these things, besides “Witness Lee is the Minister of the Age”? I certainly thought that long before the “Blended Brothers” made it official, and saints in my locality were referring to Witness Lee as “The Apostle” by the early 1980’s. Thankfully the Lord delivered me from such offensive terms to the Lord, and His unique headship of the body of Christ. He is the real Noah, David, “the Apostle”, “the Commander in Chief”.

[Meribah]

The "getting between" occurs whenever any teacher drowns out all other voices but his own and, by doing so, insists that his way is the new and only revelation for that time period. Look at the authors available through LSM. (Hearty chuckle here.)

It also occurs when the leader establishes a feeling that no one else can see what he sees and therefore no one should even try. The truth is, and I will grant him this, WL did receive some revelation. Just as everyone else in the body does, he received revelation. But he and his "portion" are greatly overvalued. I must admit that I now think he is a bore.

I note the boasting about how the young people in the LC are able to expound at length on scripture. Of course, this is only a parroting of WL's teaching. The statement above regarding the young people being able to outdo all the other children in the denominations reminds me of James pointing to the believers in Jerusalem and saying that there were myriads, all zealous for the law. Not quite what Jesus had in mind. And neither is this. It makes one wonder why so many of the young people are leaving or fall away if they are truly following Christ.... all the while "expounding".

In the good classrooms, a teacher is certainly supposed to build a framework for student understanding. The teacher can also share his or her feelings and understandings about whatever is being studied. But the goal is to have students begin to think their own thoughts and take over their learning. They are supposed to think for themselves. This is never encouraged in the LC. So, WL does indeed get between the saints in the LC and the Word. It is true that most of them are delighted to have it that way. That is their choice. But for those that want to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, this just won't do.

[Evangelical]

The lack of of biblical knowledge in denominations by even the most fervent church-goer, reminds me of what Paul said in Hebrews 5:12:

In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

This characterizes many denominations and the verse also proves that the view that we don't need teachers is wrong (here, Paul seems to expect the believers to function as teachers, it is not the job of just the pastor or priest).

Although some have claimed it is boasting, it is only the reality that many teenagers in the local church have a better grasp of the bible than a youth pastor (for example) in a denomination.In fact in one denominational church I used to go to, the youth bible studies were often nothing more than watching a movie and playing games. The pastor was quite incapable of leading a bible study and the participants would rather do other things than study the bible. The modern day churches, even though they may be large and attractive, are really just social gatherings and entertainment centers with a religious flavor. Few people there are able to answer a fairly straightforward question from the Bible. In fact the post-church conversations are often not related to God or the Bible at all, the general disinterest in discussing anything of spiritual value is evident.

Here is an article which supports what I am saying, called "The Epidemic of Bible Illiteracy in Our Churches":

http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2015/july/epidemic-of-bible-illiteracy-in-our-churches.html

The Sad Statistics
Christians claim to believe the Bible is God's Word. We claim it's God's divinely inspired, inerrant message to us. Yet despite this, we aren't reading it. A recent LifeWay Research study found only 45 percent of those who regularly attend church read the Bible more than once a week. Over 40 percent of the people attending read their Bible occasionally, maybe once or twice a month. Almost 1 in 5 churchgoers say they never read the Bible—essentially the same number who read it every day.

There have been many other studies showing similar results, one of which claims that 80% of church goers don't read the Bible:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2012/september/80-of-churchgoers-dont-read-bible-daily-lifeway-survey.html

In a fresh study of "Bible engagement" released yesterday, LifeWay Research surveyed more than 2,900 Protestant churchgoers and found that while 90 percent "desire to please and honor Jesus in all I do," only 19 percent personally read the Bible every day.

The morning revival encourages daily bible reading, and the meetings also encourage it because of the expectation to share something in the meeting. I think a person who has the morning revivals would generally be better off than a person in a denomination, given the statistics.

[awareness]

I can testify bro EvanG that this is true in churches here in my neck of the woods, except for the devoted conservative believers. They know and read their Bible, but are few in numbers. Some of them are my Southern Baptist family members.

That doesn't mean that I've haven't been called out for feeding meat to milk drinkers, in the adult Sunday School class, by the preacher, who was leading the class.

But I should also point out that, eating lunch with them after services I found out that they were similar to the early NT church days, in that they didn't read anything, not just the Bible. And they didn't have the excuse that NT believers had, unlike 90% back then, that were literate. In their defense, most of them are farmers, with little time and energy to read anything. Having lunch with one of the elders I was told they get their Bible from the preacher, who had massive amounts of the Bible memorized (like David Koresh of Waco fame).

Still, I must point out that teaching young people the Bible is not a magic pill. Example, one daughter of a brother I knew in the LC knew her Bible well enough to write a thesis in high school on how David and Jonathan were gay, or at least bisexual. I read it. It was a strong argument, with many Bible references. She knew her Bible. She was gay.

I mentioned David Koresh, a cult leader. When I joined the LC I had a choice to join the Children of God. They had to memorize 10 verses of the Bible every day. The Children of God was/is a personality cult too, just like Lee's local church, that's not quite as extreme. Proving that, just because a Christian group teaches the Bible doesn't mean they aren't a cult. Cults memorize the Bible too.

[Evangelical]

I can testify bro EvanG that this is true in churches here in my neck of the woods, except for the devoted conservative believers. They know and read their Bible, but are few in numbers. Some of them are my Southern Baptist family members.

That doesn't mean that I've haven't been called out for feeding meat to milk drinkers, in the adult Sunday School class, by the preacher, who was leading the class.

But I should also point out that, eating lunch with them after services I found out that they were similar to the early NT church days, in that they didn't read anything, not just the Bible. And they didn't have the excuse that NT believers had, unlike 90% back then, that were literate. In their defense, most of them are farmers, with little time and energy to read anything. Having lunch with one of the elders I was told they get their Bible from the preacher, who had massive amounts of the Bible memorized (like David Koresh of Waco fame).

Still, I must point out that teaching young people the Bible is not a magic pill. Example, one daughter of a brother I knew in the LC knew her Bible well enough to write a thesis in high school on how David and Jonathan were gay, or at least bisexual. I read it. It was a strong argument, with many Bible references. She knew her Bible. She was gay.

I mentioned David Koresh, a cult leader. When I joined the LC I had a choice to join the Children of God. They had to memorize 10 verses of the Bible every day. The Children of God was/is a personality cult too, just like Lee's local church, that's not quite as extreme. Proving that, just because a Christian group teaches the Bible doesn't mean they aren't a cult. Cults memorize the Bible too.

According to some the Spirit is supposed to teach them and no man is needed. Why didnt it work?

In fact in a bible study i used to attend I had to defend the idea of unbelievers going to hell. Everyone was against me even the pastor. Why the Spirit teaches different things?

[awareness]

According to some the Spirit is supposed to teach them and no man is needed. Why didnt it work?

In fact in a bible study i used to attend I had to defend the idea of unbelievers going to hell. Everyone was against me even the pastor. Why the Spirit teaches different things?
I got in trouble, and stirred up all the sisters, who stirred up their husband, stirring up a ruckus, when I pointed out Peter was naked. The response was, "No he wasn't." And when the preacher confirmed it the remark was, "Why would they put that in the Bible?"

Later, after getting home, the preacher called me, quite upset, and that's when I was told I was feeding meat to milk drinkers.

The motto of the church was, "No book but the Bible, no creed but Christ." They believe the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God, but have little interest in reading what they believe is Gods' very own words. I don't get it. Eventually I was run out of that church. (Will it ever end?) I was speaking out of their comfort zone.

But in their defense. Here, in Ky, I've heard from many believers that, they believe the preacher speaks for God. So the Bible isn't all that important. All they have to do is listen to the preacher. Ring a bell?

As to why the Spirit isn't teaching them, maybe they aren't listening.

Thanks for your reply brother Evangelical. Blessings.

[Drake]

JJ>"Sorry for the confusion, Drake. I’m trying to respect LSM copyright by not copying. Do you not see which books, chapters, sections, are cited? Read them in their context.

My point is not that a singular sentence or phrase tells you “I am the Minister of the Age”. Like Watchman Née before him, Witness Lee never said those words directly. He said it over and over in different ways indirectly"

JJ,

Sure. so just type a sentence you want us to go look at if there is quote. We can use it as a keyword.

Now to your point.... I think the reason that Brother Lee did not say it explicitly is because he was not promoting it. Consider this.... did Brother Lee strike you as a person that went out of his way to avoid controversy in stating something he really believed in? Rather he leaned into the things he believed in even it would be misunderstood. If he believed that a special title and office of "MOTA" was important for him to appropriate then his ministry would have been explicitly with it... no need to skirt it or hint about it.

I stated several posts ago that it recently occurred to me that I never heard him say "Minister of the Age" or "MOTA"... and my sense was right...

Drake

[Evangelical]

I got in trouble, and stirred up all the sisters, who stirred up their husband, stirring up a ruckus, when I pointed out Peter was naked. The response was, "No he wasn't." And when the preacher confirmed it the remark was, "Why would they put that in the Bible?"

Later, after getting home, the preacher called me, quite upset, and that's when I was told I was feeding meat to milk drinkers.

The motto of the church was, "No book but the Bible, no creed but Christ." They believe the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God, but have little interest in reading what they believe is Gods' very own words. I don't get it. Eventually I was run out of that church. (Will it ever end?) I was speaking out of their comfort zone.

But in their defense. Here, in Ky, I've heard from many believers that, they believe the preacher speaks for God. So the Bible isn't all that important. All they have to do is listen to the preacher. Ring a bell?

As to why the Spirit isn't teaching them, maybe they aren't listening.

Thanks for your reply brother Evangelical. Blessings.


Well you were right about the nakedness and it was usual for prophets to strip naked before prophesying.

[Koinonia]

I stated several posts ago that it recently occurred to me that I never heard him say "Minister of the Age" or "MOTA"... and my sense was right...

Drake

It is not printed. That does not mean he never said it.

[awareness]

It is not printed. That does not mean he never said it.
And never DID it. As I've stated I was kicked out over the MOTA practice being shoved down my throat, literally.

[Drake]

duplicate... sorry

[Drake]

It is not printed. That does not mean he never said it.


Okay... produce an audio then.

Drake

[Koinonia]

Okay... produce an audio then.

Drake

Drake, did you believe that Witness Lee was "the minister of the age" while he was alive? If so, where did you get that idea?

[ZNPaaneah]

Drake, did you believe that Witness Lee was "the minister of the age" while he was alive? If so, where did you get that idea?

Personally I think it is fascinating that you cannot find Witness Lee talking about being the MOTA anywhere in the written word. To me that is the most blatant hypocrisy. He knew that what he was speaking in meetings was a damnable heresy.

[JJ]

JJ>"Sorry for the confusion, Drake. I’m trying to respect LSM copyright by not copying. Do you not see which books, chapters, sections, are cited? Read them in their context.

My point is not that a singular sentence or phrase tells you “I am the Minister of the Age”. Like Watchman Née before him, Witness Lee never said those words directly. He said it over and over in different ways indirectly"

JJ,

Sure. so just type a sentence you want us to go look at if there is quote. We can use it as a keyword.

Now to your point.... I think the reason that Brother Lee did not say it explicitly is because he was not promoting it. Consider this.... did Brother Lee strike you as a person that went out of his way to avoid controversy in stating something he really believed in? Rather he leaned into the things he believed in even it would be misunderstood. If he believed that a special title and office of "MOTA" was important for him to appropriate then his ministry would have been explicitly with it... no need to skirt it or hint about it.

I stated several posts ago that it recently occurred to me that I never heard him say "Minister of the Age" or "MOTA"... and my sense was right...

Drake

OK, Drake. The LSM on-line publications are difficult to use the way you suggested. But you understood, and answered my point. Thanks!

I disagree because initially I thought it meant the way you said. But, then I watched “the ministry of the age” and “ministers of the age” morph openly under Witness Lee’s tutelage of the “Blended Brothers” into “The Minister of the Age” and “The Ministry of the Age”, and now that is what they openly teach and print.

Doesn’t it bother you, that it is now openly promoted? It bothered me enough to leave TLR.

Again “Remaining in the Unique New Testament Ministry of God’s Economy Under the Proper Leadership in His Move” Chapter 1 Section 13 is a collection of some of Lee’s quotes on this topic. It was put together by the Blended Brothers, and uses the capitalized versions of those terms! And, the entire book is filled with indirect ways Witness Lee led his followers there.

OK, No more from me on this topic. Have a good night.

[Drake]

Drake, did you believe that Witness Lee was "the minister of the age" while he was alive? If so, where did you get that idea?

No, not in those terms.

It was apparent that he was the one who was the lead minister in the ministry of the age. I got that idea because he obviously was.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

No, not in those terms.

It was apparent that he was the one who was the lead minister in the ministry of the age. I got that idea because he obviously was.

Drake

Was it the "Ministry of the Age" because of the "Ground of the Church" doctrine, or were there other factors that were necessary?

[Drake]

Was it the "Ministry of the Age" because of the "Ground of the Church" doctrine, or were there other factors that were necessary?

ZNP,

Your starting point is always doctrine which I have already stated is a non-starter for me personally.

In any case, I don’t understand your question. Please rephrase.

Thanks
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

ZNP,

Your starting point is always doctrine which I have already stated is a non-starter for me personally.

In any case, I don’t understand your question. Please rephrase.

Thanks
Drake

You said it was obvious that Witness Lee was the lead minister in the Ministry of the Age. I am asking what made it obvious to you that this was the "Ministry of the Age"?

[TLFisher]

The lack of due diligence to present the facts is absolutely astounding.

It goes both ways......"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes." - spoken by Witness Lee 4/18/90.

[TLFisher]

And DCP is the "Defense and Confirmation Project" which is little more than the legal arm of LSM ready to sue any publisher who speaks up. They are doing their best to shut down this website.

When I left, I reminisced my many years there, putting together all my stories with a few other brothers I knew and discovered online, and then I got hit with the awful conclusion one day that this program turns beloved brothers into bullies.

The part about bullies is very applicable. One characteristic of a bully is when confronted, they will back down. That's very much DCP.
As much as the legal issues that went on with Harvest House, when this forum's own "Indiana" sought to meet with DCP representatives face to face, they became conveniently unavailable.
Another characteristic of a bully is they thrive better in numbers.
At the local level, "the fellowship room" is well known. When a brother is summoned to the fellowship room, he can very well expect to be confronted by 10 or more brothers without any peer to advocate.
One such brother I've known was summoned to the fellowship room, when the tables are turned as to end "the fellowship" abruptly, there's an unfavorable reaction "but we have meeting".
If a brother being summoned suggests, "why don't we meet one on one or we can meet one on one and each bring a witness? Such a suggestion will never materialize for a time of fellowship to address issues.

[TLFisher]

With this in mind, I'm wondering if some of you ex-LCers might share your biggest complaint/grudge/issue/false-teaching/heresy/etc… you personally found in relation to the LC. If you could only pick one- what would it be?

Hypocrisy of practices in relation to teachings.

[TLFisher]

It goes both ways......"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes." - spoken by Witness Lee 4/18/90.

There was no fact-checking in FOTPR. There was no checking of the facts by WL, but withholding the facts. It's no different how DWS took care of the DNC in the 2016 Democratic primaries. There were manipulations towards a predetermined outcome.

[Ohio]

There was no fact-checking in FOTPR. There was no checking of the facts by WL, but withholding the facts. It's no different how DWS took care of the DNC in the 2016 Democratic primaries. There were manipulations towards a predetermined outcome.
Not exactly.

DWS and the DNC treated Bernie much better than WL/PL/LSM treated John So and the young people from Germany.

But ... yes ... they both were manipulations toward predetermined outcomes.

[ZNPaaneah]

I find it interesting that when we think of "smoking gun" we think of some sin or heresy.

But if you read Matthew 18 the Lord doesn't tell us to treat a brother or sister who sins as "a heathen and publican". As bad as PL's sin was, it isn't uncommon, just turn on the news. Nor does he say to do this if they are teaching some doctrine you disagree with.

No, the key issue with the Lord is "if he neglect to hear".

A person who is offended comes to the leadership and they neglect to hear. Perhaps they give an excuse -- he was demonstrating angst. He came at the wrong time. He didn't complain in the right way. He should have set up a meeting. Of course if they do that then they run from the meeting, hands on the ears, you shouldn't call this meeting with us. He should send an email. He should send a letter. He should send the letter registered mail. He should bring another brother. Etc., etc., etc. Until finally, hey that was 30 years ago, can't we just move on?

But I like this term "neglect".

Neglect -- to give little attention to or respect.

That is truly the way these ones who have brought their complaint have been treated. Their complaint has been neglected.

But there is more,

Neglect -- to leave undone or unattended, especially through carelessness.

That is truly how these ones have treated these sins. They have left them undone, unattended, and it was through carelessness. How disrespectful is this carelessness!

Other translations say "refuse to hear them" or "pays no attention to them" or even "ignores them".

This is what prompts the Lord to say

17 If he ignores these witnesses, tell it to the community of believers. If he also ignores the community, deal with him as you would a heathen or a tax collector.

What I find very interesting is how much LSM emphasizes the importance of the church. But in Matt 18 What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

All of these promises are after verse 17. If you neglect to hear the complaints of those you have offended you are not qualified. You are not a testimony of the Lord, you don't bind or loose anything in heaven, and the Father doesn't "do what you ask".

Perhaps this is the real smoking gun.

[Gideon7]

Good evening folks. I wanted to jump back in here and give a big thanks for all the info and stories and encouragement that was shared in response to my query. I deeply appreciate what was shared- although I'm sure I didn't quite catch nearly all of it- I don't claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have decided to move on and not continue to fellowship with the LC in my area. I honestly can't nail it down to one reason- or even a couple- I guess I didn't find my "smoking gun". But I do sense the Holy Spirit moving me away from this group and on to... well, I don't really know exactly what. There are some things I will miss and honestly doubt I will easily find in another fellowship. The open sharing, the lack of the One Man in Charge (Pastor X), the apparent equality, the use of biblical lingo- so much of it had the feeling of Acts. I'll be honest and say I'm sorta sad- kinda like I found out that a person I was getting to know had horrible character defects and I needed to cut off the relationship. I'm gonna miss the "what I hoped it coulda been". I know God has someplace for my wife and I to serve/grow/give/get/share. This hasn't at all lessened my appreciation for Christ or who I am in Him. But it has been another apparent example of the insidious nature of pride- at least in my opinion that was the main downfall of WL- but I could easily be wrong and ultimately that's between he and Christ. So I rejoice that I've been adopted, cleaned up a bit and loved by an Awesome Savior- how eternally grateful I am to be His and know where I'm going when this crazy ride is done. And what a mission He has put us on- to know Him and make Him known- and I hope I'm faithful to Him til He takes me home. Thanks again for all the input. May we each take seriously and joyfully the opportunity we have been given through Christ- all glory to Him!

[leastofthese]

Good evening folks. I wanted to jump back in here and give a big thanks for all the info and stories and encouragement that was shared in response to my query. I deeply appreciate what was shared- although I'm sure I didn't quite catch nearly all of it- I don't claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have decided to move on and not continue to fellowship with the LC in my area. I honestly can't nail it down to one reason- or even a couple- I guess I didn't find my "smoking gun". But I do sense the Holy Spirit moving me away from this group and on to... well, I don't really know exactly what. There are some things I will miss and honestly doubt I will easily find in another fellowship. The open sharing, the lack of the One Man in Charge (Pastor X), the apparent equality, the use of biblical lingo- so much of it had the feeling of Acts. I'll be honest and say I'm sorta sad- kinda like I found out that a person I was getting to know had horrible character defects and I needed to cut off the relationship. I'm gonna miss the "what I hoped it coulda been". I know God has someplace for my wife and I to serve/grow/give/get/share. This hasn't at all lessened my appreciation for Christ or who I am in Him. But it has been another apparent example of the insidious nature of pride- at least in my opinion that was the main downfall of WL- but I could easily be wrong and ultimately that's between he and Christ. So I rejoice that I've been adopted, cleaned up a bit and loved by an Awesome Savior- how eternally grateful I am to be His and know where I'm going when this crazy ride is done. And what a mission He has put us on- to know Him and make Him known- and I hope I'm faithful to Him til He takes me home. Thanks again for all the input. May we each take seriously and joyfully the opportunity we have been given through Christ- all glory to Him!

Love the sound of your heart - thanks for sharing