PDA

View Full Version : Witness Lee and AW Tozer


Pages : 1 [2]

aron
10-05-2016, 08:11 AM
Before God, can you say that this is what you have been doing for the last 8 years on this forum?

First off, I don't strain the limits of Christianity. I'm happy being in the middle of the flock. Second of all, I do everything before God. We all do. There is nothing that is not hidden before His light. And last of all, I do strive for charity, moreso as the years pass. But to what degree, God knows.

Ohio
10-05-2016, 08:32 AM
The only thing that changed with his doctrine on Sanctification that I can see is that after 1994 he taught that we could use the word "deification". That was very different from warning about the dangers of its use. Also, he used the Eastern Orthodox use of it to justify this. Using Eastern Orthodox teachings to justify his teachings was unthinkable to those of us from the 70s. Why?


Witness Lee began his "high peak" teachings, i.e. "God became man to make man God," much earlier than 1994.

It is my contention that Lee used these so-called "high peak" teachings from the early '90's in order to "refocus" the attention of the remaining saints during the aftermath chaos of the quarantines and so-called rebellions. For me personally it is highly suspect that the Spirit of God would thus anoint these suspicious teachings following the coverup of Phillip Lee's numerous scandals and the slander inflicted upon many men of God (Ingalls, Mallon, Fung, So, et.al.) who stood up to speak their conscience on the Lord's behalf.

As evidence, I still have a 37 page copy of "The Truth Concerning The Ultimate Goal of God's Economy; A Refutation of J.S.'s Slanderous Accusations," dated November 1994. This "Refutation" by RK, EM, KR, and AY allegedly addresses an article entitled, "The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God" by JS. By the end of 1994, the tract wars with rejections and counter-rejections had already moved from small arms fire to heavy artillery.

Obviously "J.S." was most certainly John So, who was actively rebutting Lee's teaching. Lee had been promoting this teaching for several years, and prior to this John So addressed this "serious heretical teaching" in a short paper dated Oct. 12, 1994 "I Myself Also Am A Man" referencing Peter's words in Acts 10.26. In a later letter in August 1995, John So provided a foreword to his tract mentioning events which occurred at a LSM young people's training in Manila. One young brother was dismissed from the training, branded as "rebellious," for refusing to stand up and declare loudly, "Hallelujah, I am a baby God, I am a holy God, I am God."

ZNPaaneah
10-05-2016, 02:57 PM
It would be nice if we could document a time line.

Also, on a related note. I know the legal defense team has "won" some lawsuits. But have they won money? Has LSM made money or is it merely empty victories?

least
10-05-2016, 06:23 PM
Witness Lee began his "high peak" teachings, i.e. "God became man to make man God," much earlier than 1994.
As evidence, I still have a 37 page copy of "The Truth Concerning The Ultimate Goal of God's Economy; A Refutation of J.S.'s Slanderous Accusations," dated November 1994. This "Refutation" by RK, EM, KR, and AY allegedly addresses an article entitled, "The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God" by JS. By the end of 1994, the tract wars with rejections and counter-rejections had already moved from small arms fire to heavy artillery.
[/I]"

Is it possible to upload: -

"The Truth Concerning The Ultimate Goal of God's Economy; A Refutation of J.S.'s Slanderous Accusations," and

"The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God" by JS.

Thanks.

testallthings
10-05-2016, 07:41 PM
First off, I don't strain the limits of Christianity. I'm happy being in the middle of the flock. Second of all, I do everything before God. We all do. There is nothing that is not hidden before His light. And last of all, I do strive for charity, moreso as the years pass. But to what degree, God knows.

Amen.
May God enlarge our capacity to strive more and more for charity.

Ohio
10-05-2016, 07:55 PM
Is it possible to upload: -

"The Truth Concerning The Ultimate Goal of God's Economy; A Refutation of J.S.'s Slanderous Accusations," and

"The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God" by JS.

Thanks.
The first is a pamphlet I have, but without a scanner, have no way to digitize and upload.

The second paper by JS I Have never seen.

I think the other paper by JS is available for download.

Freedom
10-05-2016, 08:12 PM
Is it possible to upload: -

"The Truth Concerning The Ultimate Goal of God's Economy; A Refutation of J.S.'s Slanderous Accusations," and

"The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God" by JS.

Thanks.

I found the article that JS wrote available at the following link:
http://theologychina.weebly.com/334872766524378-122982510520063261592015412299.html

According to JS, he published the article and was later accused of publishing a book titled The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee.

He says the following:
In the course of our fellowship, these concerned young believers earnestly requested that I write a paper on these verses to help others to be clear regarding the context of these scriptures.

Due to the urgency of the situation, and in order to avoid confusion and division in the church in Pasay City, I quickly wrote a four-page article entitled “I Myself Am Just a Man” on October 12, 1994, and an explanation of these verses. To my utter surprise, I was told a couple of months later that four people had written a whole book accusing me of having allegedly written a book entitled “The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God.” God knows that I never wrote a book with such a title! I just ignored the whole matter. There were even some individuals who wrote me to request copies of the alleged title after reading their book. It just came to my attention recently that some of Witness Lee’s followers had even taken the trouble to travel to Paris to confuse the brothers by spreading the allegation.

Therefore, after much consideration before the Lord, I feel the need to print the article which I wrote last October in the Philippines to clear up some confusion. I do hope that whoever reads this may receive some help regarding scriptural truths.

testallthings
10-05-2016, 08:13 PM
Thank you for the very thoughtful response.
I would like to address your central premise, which is that Witness Lee's teaching was not hypocritical but consistent...

Brother ZNPaaneah,

the burden of proof is on you, not on me. It was you who tried to paint Lee as an hypocrite, and I have no objections to your aim. My objection is about the proofs you have brought as charges against him. You may continue in your pursuit as you wish. As I said in another post even if the Devil had been misrepresented or misquoted I would object. The words we speak today might become our condemnation in that day.

As I said to another poster in another thread, I am not here to defend W. Lee (I might have to say something on certain points, though). I am actually trying to prove (with success or not, I don't know), in my two threads, his wrong interpretation (in my opinion) of various passages of the Bible. Just give the man a fair trial, that's all I am asking for. We will not have a bad surprise in that day.

So, thanks for the invitation, but I think the task you propose to me is for someone else. Maybe for someone who knows Lee inside and out, who believes his every word and every term.

least
10-05-2016, 08:52 PM
According to JS, he published the article and was later accused of publishing a book titled The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee.

He says the following:
In the course of our fellowship, these concerned young believers earnestly requested that I write a paper on these verses to help others to be clear regarding the context of these scriptures.

Due to the urgency of the situation, and in order to avoid confusion and division in the church in Pasay City, I quickly wrote a four-page article entitled “I Myself Am Just a Man” on October 12, 1994, and an explanation of these verses. To my utter surprise, I was told a couple of months later that four people had written a whole book accusing me of having allegedly written a book entitled “The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God.” God knows that I never wrote a book with such a title! I just ignored the whole matter. There were even some individuals who wrote me to request copies of the alleged title after reading their book. It just came to my attention recently that some of Witness Lee’s followers had even taken the trouble to travel to Paris to confuse the brothers by spreading the allegation.

Therefore, after much consideration before the Lord, I feel the need to print the article which I wrote last October in the Philippines to clear up some confusion. I do hope that whoever reads this may receive some help regarding scriptural truths.


Thank you Freedom for the link.

As to accusing JS of having allegedly written a book entitled “The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God.”
I feel sick and sad.

And the claim that 'God knows that I never wrote a book with such a title! I just ignored the whole matter. '
I believe these words, according to what I realised LSM people can twist things. SAD. Very sad.

Ohio
10-06-2016, 01:29 AM
I found the article that JS wrote available at the following link:
http://theologychina.weebly.com/334872766524378-122982510520063261592015412299.html

According to JS, he published the article and was later accused of publishing a book titled The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee.

He says the following:
In the course of our fellowship, these concerned young believers earnestly requested that I write a paper on these verses to help others to be clear regarding the context of these scriptures.

Due to the urgency of the situation, and in order to avoid confusion and division in the church in Pasay City, I quickly wrote a four-page article entitled “I Myself Am Just a Man” on October 12, 1994, and an explanation of these verses. To my utter surprise, I was told a couple of months later that four people had written a whole book accusing me of having allegedly written a book entitled “The Worst Blasphemous Words of Witness Lee against God.” God knows that I never wrote a book with such a title! I just ignored the whole matter. There were even some individuals who wrote me to request copies of the alleged title after reading their book. It just came to my attention recently that some of Witness Lee’s followers had even taken the trouble to travel to Paris to confuse the brothers by spreading the allegation.

Therefore, after much consideration before the Lord, I feel the need to print the article which I wrote last October in the Philippines to clear up some confusion. I do hope that whoever reads this may receive some help regarding scriptural truths.

Interesting!

Thanks Freedom.

It's just like LSM to write a rebuttal to an attack that never existed.

ZNPaaneah
10-06-2016, 05:45 AM
The first is a pamphlet I have, but without a scanner, have no way to digitize and upload.

The second paper by JS I Have never seen.

I think the other paper by JS is available for download.

I think there is an app where you can take a picture of the document with your smart phone and it will digitize it for you.

least
10-06-2016, 05:59 AM
Found this PDF on Internet. The second section is English. Is this the pamphlet that Ohio mentioned?

ZNPaaneah
10-06-2016, 06:01 AM
Brother ZNPaaneah,

the burden of proof is on you, not on me. It was you who tried to paint Lee as an hypocrite, and I have no objections to your aim. My objection is about the proofs you have brought as charges against him.

I guess my last post wasn't clear enough, but it was based on what I have said in many previous posts.

Witness Lee's teaching on "Deification" goes beyond the apostle's fellowship. If that is true then that is the proof that he is a hypocrite. I gave you several very clear quotes from him that he acknowledges that no Bible teacher is to go beyond the fellowship of the apostles, that they are the authority in the NT.

Because of this his "definition" of deification is irrelevant. Likewise the fact that some Christians in the past also taught this is irrelevant. Neither is the authority.

1. Paul makes it clear that you can eat something that has been sacrificed to an idol, but he also makes it clear that you have to consider those who are watching and what will happen to their conscience. It doesn't matter to Paul that it isn't a sin to him, he is concerned what the impact will be on a brother or sister who is weaker in the faith.

That is a very key criteria. Sure, Witness Lee redefines the term in a way that is not heretical and provides lots of caveats. But you cannot expect that those reading these books, those fellowshipping these teachings and those in home meetings under his ministry will do the same. How often have I been in a meeting where someone asked a question about a word and they pulled out a dictionary to define that term. If that were to happen with deification it would be the same as putting a stumbling block before the babes in Christ. Jesus, in Matt 18 said that it were better to have a millstone hung around your neck than to do this.

How many meetings will have people shouting "We are being deified" as a testimony. You cannot assume that everyone sitting in a church meeting has read the books, and got down all the caveats.

2. So then, the second key criteria is to teach "according to" the fellowship of the apostles.

A. Quote that we are "partakers of the divine nature" --

B. Quote that we are "one spirit"

C. Quote that we are "sons of God"

All of these quotes are safe for the babes in Christ.

3. We are also to "follow after" the fellowship of the Apostles. Every one uses the term "Sanctification" and "Sanctify".

What is the process that is happening to us? We are being sanctified. This means we are being made holy, fit to serve God. That is equivalent to God's life and nature. You give up nothing.

The word is rooted in the Bible. There is no danger of a babe in Christ looking up a definition of this word.

Proof that Witness Lee is a hypocrite:

1. Does Witness Lee realize the danger in the term Deification? Yes.

2. Does Witness Lee know the prohibition against placing a stumbling block before the babes in Christ? Yes.

3. Did Witness Lee warn others of the danger in this term? Yes.

4. Is Witness Lee aware that things he ministers can be taken out of context, read by new believers, or used in a superficial way? Yes.

5. Did Witness Lee use the term "sanctification" for the first 50 years of his ministry instead of Deification? Yes.

6. Did Witness Lee give any compelling reason why he decided, after so many years, to adopt this term? No.

7. Is Witness Lee faithful to his teaching on "the fellowship of the apostles" being the authority in the New Testament? No.


I think what you don't understand is that those who teach the Bible are judged with a stricter judgement or higher standard than others (James 3:1). Teaching pantheism is a very low standard, the fact that he didn't do that is not the standard by which we judge Christian teachers. ("This teacher is good, he doesn't teach pantheism" would not be considered an endorsement).

This document that Ron Kangas, Ed Marks, Kerry Robichaux, and Andrew Yu published makes it very clear that the term "deification" was stumbling some believers because they were seeing it in the blasphemous sense. That alone was more than enough justification to stop teaching it. Using Witness Lee's definitions and referring to church History are both not a valid response. Based on the fellowship of the Apostles the correct response is "if it stumbles my brother I won't eat meat". Drop the term "deification" and use "sanctification" and the issue goes away.

Their response shows a complete lack of concern for the effect of their teaching on new believers or the potential for believers to be stumbled.

Ohio
10-06-2016, 07:23 AM
Found this PDF on Internet. The second section is English. Is this the pamphlet that Ohio mentioned?

Yes!

That is the booklet I referred to, but it doesn't appear to be complete, at least not in English. That PDF includes only Ed Marks' Introduction pp. 4-9. The missing sections are:
2. Ron Kangas pp 10-18, "The heart of J.S.'s Accusations and the crux of Brother Lee's teaching."

3. Andrew Yu pp 19-21, "Misrepresentations in translation."

4. Kerry Robichaux pp 22-37, "A historical survey."


Is there more of that PDF? If not, I will look into scanning the remainder of my copy, or I could mail a copy to another poster who could.

For me personally, I had lots of problems with the "high peak" stuff of the '90's. It was outside of the Biblical norms, never seemed to be anointed spiritually, and at best it was just plain boring. I did spend lots of time in Robichaux's historical overview, and it somewhat persuaded me on the matter. I think I was fairly representative of the GLA. Since we never knew the facts surrounding Ingalls' or So's departures, we reluctantly accepted Lee's version of events, and somehow felt that God released some "new" teachings thru His "persecuted bond servant" in his final days on earth.

aron
10-06-2016, 10:27 AM
Witness Lee redefines the term in a way that is not heretical and provides lots of caveats. But you cannot expect that those reading these books, those fellowshipping these teachings and those in home meetings under his ministry will do the same.

On another thread, I pointed out that in an environment where formal theological training is scorned, how Lee's provocative and inflammatory statements, minus the caveats and qualifiers, could become the springboards for heretical cults to flourish.

In considering that, how coincidental is it that most of the extreme pseudo-Christian cults in mainland China apparently came out of the Shouters sect? And notice that some of them apparently used Lee's more outrageous statements as their foundational premises.

aron
10-06-2016, 10:33 AM
I found the article that JS wrote. He says the following:
Due to the urgency of the situation, and in order to avoid confusion and division in the church in Pasay City, I quickly wrote a four-page article entitled “I Myself Am Just a Man” on October 12, 1994, and an explanation of these verses.

Acts 10:26 But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

Acts 14:15 "Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them."

Interesting that when Peter and Paul had the 'golden opportunity' to declare that they were becoming 'baby gods' they didn't take advantage of it. Lee could also have used such reticence, but circumspection wasn't really his strong suit.

Ohio
10-06-2016, 11:08 AM
On another thread, I pointed out that in an environment where formal theological training is scorned, how Lee's more provocative and inflammatory statements, minus the caveats and qualifiers, could become the springboards for heretical cults to flourish.

Accredited seminary very bad. :thumbsdown:

Full-Time Training very good. :thumbup:



Interesting that when Peter and Paul had the 'golden opportunity' to declare that they were becoming 'baby gods' they didn't take advantage of it. Lee could also have used such reticence, but circumspection wasn't really his strong suit.


What is particularly egregious to me is how both John So and his explanation of the truth are so vigorously attacked and defamed, when he was, in effect, only repeating the truths from the Bible and taught by Lee himself when John So was living in the USA.

Old Lee teaching very bad. :thumbsdown:

New Lee teaching very good. :thumbup:

ZNPaaneah
10-06-2016, 06:09 PM
On another thread, I pointed out that in an environment where formal theological training is scorned, how Lee's provocative and inflammatory statements, minus the caveats and qualifiers, could become the springboards for heretical cults to flourish.

In considering that, how coincidental is it that most of the extreme pseudo-Christian cults in mainland China apparently came out of the Shouters sect? And notice that some of them apparently used Lee's more outrageous statements as their foundational premises.

All cults have a "we-they" type of mindset, we have the truth, they don't.

Witness Lee's outrageous, provocative, inflammatory statements were those that built the "they don't have the truth" side of the argument.

His caveats, qualifiers and special definitions all demonstrate, not that he has the truth or that the doctrine is sound, but that he knows that his statements, on the surface are blasphemous, heretical, and abominable. He is a false prophet, not because the doctrine is false, but because he is false.

Evangelical
10-09-2016, 01:52 AM
So pagan's don't have an itching ear to hear about "deification"? Idolatrous people don't have an itching ear to hear about deification?...

ZNPaaneah,

so what you are basically saying is that it was a marketing ploy, a deliberate word choice. Maybe it does attract pagans and others who want to hear about deification.

So let's consider the consequence of that - if someone read the material hoping to find that they could actually become a god and be worshiped, they would be disappointed, because it doesn't teach that at all. So you've got one disappointed pagan as a result.

Consider "Life-Study of 1 & 2 Samuel,
by Witness Lee", it says we will be like Him. That is no different to what the Bible teaches about becoming like Christ.

So I wonder why you make such a fuss about word choice when the doctrine itself is harmless. That doesn't seem logical to me. Whether the word choice was deliberate or unfortunate, doesn't change the fact that no where does Lee teach that men become gods to be worshiped in any sort of pagan (or other) sense.

So the idea to use the word deification to attract pagans (and others) to a Christian teaching seems like something you should be supporting to me.

I know you see some sort of similarity between this and Christmas, but the different is clear to me. Christmas is about putting a Christian label on something pagan. The substance of that thing is still pagan, whether we give it a Christian name or not. But this matter of deification seems to be about putting a pagan label (the word deification) on something Christian. That means the substance of the doctrine is still Christian, no matter if we call it theosis or deification or sanctification.

ZNPaaneah
10-09-2016, 06:15 AM
Yes, it is a deeper, trickier form of deceit than just some marketing ploy to get a pagan to buy into Christianity (i.e. Christmas)

No, deification is a marketing ploy to get a Christian to buy into a cult.

Here is how it works.

1. I read all of the verses in the Bible on Sanctification -- we are partakers of the divine nature, we are sons of God, we are one Spirit, etc.

2. I run with those verses with all of the implied meaning -- life and nature of God.

So far this is fine, but it doesn't distinguish you from other Christian teachers. You can't claim a "vision of the age" if you are teaching the same thing. Also, you can't claim "degraded Christianity" if you are teaching the same thing.

3. So he now needs something to distinguish "we from they". So he teaches "deification" and "we are being deified". He teaches that "we are becoming God only not in the godhead" (what does that mean, who knows). Well this can certainly be seen as heretical, abominable and the teaching of idolatry. So he walks it back with lots of caveats, he redefines the term, so as long as you are using the Witness Lee dictionary the term is not idolatrous.

What does this accomplish?

First, it provokes a lot of response both within and without the local church of heresy. John So and others from within are concerned that the use of this term could stumble new believers and that it is completely unnecessary to the teaching of Sanctification. Many argue that this goes beyond the teaching of the apostles, which is is the authority in the New Testament. Others argue that it is heretical, abominable and idolatrous.

So, he has clearly provoked the "we know the truth, they don't" paradigm he is going for. He can argue, as you have done, that it is not any of these things, etc. Is there any concern about new believers being stumbled? No, if anyone is stumbled it is their fault because they didn't read his teaching carefully.

So then, is that a fair argument? A new believer, by definition is one that hasn't read all of Witness Lee's books carefully. They are one, who by definition was not at that particular conference. No, they simply hear someone making a loud testimony "We are being deified". They might be in a home meeting with someone saying that we are being deified and becoming God.

Should Witness Lee be held accountable for how everyone in the meetings and home meetings presents this teaching? Yes, he should. That is what it means when James said that teachers "will be judged by a stricter judgement".

Witness Lee made it very clear in his teaching that the fellowship of the Apostles is the authority in the church.

Did the apostles fellowship that it is not a sin to eat something that has been sacrificed to an idol (like the term deification). Yes.

However they also said that if my use of this were to cause someone weaker in the faith to be emboldened to sin, say to partake in idolatry, then I would not touch it. The issue is not whether or not Witness Lee was idolatrous and taught idolatry. The issue is whether or not his teaching caused those under it to partake in idolatry. Can we see examples of an idolatrous attitude, like the famous quote "even when he is wrong he is right" or that "we owe him even our life".

Did we see people in the Lord's Recovery come to him, concerned about the new believers, like John So. Yes. Now according to the Lord Jesus it is better if you put a mill stone around your neck and jump into the sea than it is to stumble the new believers. But that is not the attitude from Witness Lee and his minions. No, they attacked, demeaned, and slandered all that were concerned about this teaching. Once again, clearly outside of the fellowship of the Apostles.

So then, Jesus said you would know them by their fruit. What is the fruit of this teaching?

First, they will have the "we know the truth, they don't" arrogance typical of all cults.

Second, they will not have a concern for any who might be stumbled by their teachings.

Third, they will learn to ignore the fellowship of the apostles, a pride that will precede their fall.

Fourth, blinded by their pride they will view any who oppose this teaching as someone who opposes the "Minister of the Age" and the "Vision of the Age" and evidence that they are fighting some spiritual warfare.

Evangelical
10-09-2016, 07:40 AM
The connections between deification and vision of the age and degraded Christianity is quite weak.

Vision of the age is about one master builder and one vision of the age.
Degraded Christianity is because it has fallen away from Christ. Almost everything Christianity does has nothing to do with Christ.

These things do not depend on deification. In themselves these two matters would be enough to distinguish from Christianity.

ZNPaaneah
10-09-2016, 01:01 PM
The connections between deification and vision of the age and degraded Christianity is quite weak.

Vision of the age is about one master builder and one vision of the age.
Degraded Christianity is because it has fallen away from Christ. Almost everything Christianity does has nothing to do with Christ.

These things do not depend on deification. In themselves these two matters would be enough to distinguish from Christianity.

The "vision of the age" is what the MOTA has and it is what makes him the MOTA.

Degraded Christianity is the justification for everything that this "MOTA" does in separating himself from all other believers in the Body.

Deification is one way in which this "MOTA" separates himself from all other believers, and it pushes his narrative that "we have the truth, they don't". If you oppose this teaching they jump up and down with all the NT verses and Witness Lee caveats, and special definitions to prove they are fundamental in their understanding.

What they fundamentally don't understand is Jesus word that "whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea." They don't understand that taking this liberty is to sin against Christ "9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak. 10 For if a man see thee who hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ."

What do you think happens if you sin against Christ? "But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols."

Ohio
10-09-2016, 02:51 PM
The connections between deification and vision of the age and degraded Christianity is quite weak.

Vision of the age is about one master builder and one vision of the age.
Degraded Christianity is because it has fallen away from Christ. Almost everything Christianity does has nothing to do with Christ.

These things do not depend on deification. In themselves these two matters would be enough to distinguish from Christianity.

This forum is filled with testimonies about Lee and LSM and how much they did without Christ. Haven't you read the scripture about how the Lord is outside and knocking at the door of the Laodicean church? Even Lee himself said the LC's were Laodicea! Too bad he never acknowledged his responsibility.

Knowing how pathetic LSM has become, you should be ashamed of yourself for continually condemning the body of Christ, calling it "Degraded Christianity."

Evangelical
10-09-2016, 07:11 PM
This forum is filled with testimonies about Lee and LSM and how much they did without Christ. Haven't you read the scripture about how the Lord is outside and knocking at the door of the Laodicean church? Even Lee himself said the LC's were Laodicea! Too bad he never acknowledged his responsibility.

Knowing how pathetic LSM has become, you should be ashamed of yourself for continually condemning the body of Christ, calling it "Degraded Christianity."

Are you saying it is not degraded? Why then are you not a Roman Catholic? Why are we not all Roman Catholics today? FYI there was this thing called the Reformation because Christianity was degraded.

Evangelical
10-09-2016, 07:15 PM
Degraded Christianity is the justification for everything that this "MOTA" does in separating himself from all other believers in the Body..

Do you believe in the degradation of Christianity? If so, then I do not take your words seriously in this matter because if you really did not believe in the degradation of Christianity then you would be a Catholic today. I say to you what I said to Ohio, if Christianity is not degraded, why are we not all Catholics today? We may as well have remained or joined Catholicism and pretend that we are not degraded. By your logic, then Martin Luther must have also caused little ones to stumble etc etc.

If you don't believe in the degradation of Christianity, then why not? Do you believe Christianity is not degraded?

ZNPaaneah
10-09-2016, 08:36 PM
Do you believe in the degradation of Christianity? If so, then I do not take your words seriously in this matter because if you really did not believe in the degradation of Christianity then you would be a Catholic today. I say to you what I said to Ohio, if Christianity is not degraded, why are we not all Catholics today? We may as well have remained or joined Catholicism and pretend that we are not degraded. By your logic, then Martin Luther must have also caused little ones to stumble etc etc.

If you don't believe in the degradation of Christianity, then why not? Do you believe Christianity is not degraded?

I have gone into great detail on this question on another forum, but that forum has closed down without explanation.

This question requires a detailed and careful response, not some superficial response.

I will create a new thread "Do you think Christianity is degraded?" Where we can do that.

The brief response is that I disagree with much of what Witness Lee said and did on this topic.

That said, I do agree that many of the verses he referred to do in fact refer to failings of Christians and Christian congregations. I do not disagree with the interpretation that the 7 churches in Revelation can be viewed from the idea of church history. I don't think that this is the only way to view this portion, nor is this my preferred way to look at these verses, but I can agree that there are some reasonable points with this approach.

Ohio
10-09-2016, 08:41 PM
Are you saying it is not degraded? Why then are you not a Roman Catholic? Why are we not all Roman Catholics today? FYI there was this thing called the Reformation because Christianity was degraded.
Huh?

Evangelical, do you not know that the body of Christ is not limited to the Catholic church? It was not during the dark ages either?

You really need to read church history. Read some good church historians. Every bit of church history which I received from Lee was tainted by his self-serving bias. Sorry to break the news to you.

Do you not agree that LSM is as degraded as the Christians you condemn. LSM sues those who speak against their teachings. LSM slanders those who expose their unrighteousness. LSM quarantines those who serve God and refuse to submit to their subjugation. LSM allows no liberty of the Spirit.

Are you listening?

Evangelical
10-09-2016, 08:54 PM
Huh?

Evangelical, do you not know that the body of Christ is not limited to the Catholic church? It was not during the dark ages either?

You really need to read church history. Read some good church historians. Every bit of church history which I received from Lee was tainted by his self-serving bias. Sorry to break the news to you.

Do you not agree that LSM is as degraded as the Christians you condemn. LSM sues those who speak against their teachings. LSM slanders those who expose their unrighteousness. LSM quarantines those who serve God and refuse to submit to their subjugation. LSM allows no liberty of the Spirit.

Are you listening?

Any local church can become degraded, of course. Lee did not deny that. But this doesn't mean that every local church around the world is degraded.
I will continue in the new thread that has been started.

testallthings
10-11-2016, 12:19 AM
to ZNPaaneah
what do you mean by "the teaching of the apostles", or "the apostles teaching?"

ZNPaaneah
10-11-2016, 05:53 AM
to ZNPaaneah
what do you mean by "the teaching of the apostles", or "the apostles teaching?"

Acts 2:42 *And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Paul told Timothy to charge certain ones to “not teach differently”.

In Revelation John said anyone who added or took away from the vision would be cursed.

Peter and Paul warned of those who “teach differently”, “Preach another gospel”, have “another Jesus”, etc.

To me the teaching and fellowship of the apostles is the New Testament. This is the authority in the church.

A big unanswered question is whether or not there are any more apostles. I tend to think there are, but I have to admit the “fellowship of the apostles” is complete, so that function for apostles is no longer open.

testallthings
10-11-2016, 09:54 PM
Acts 2:42 *And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Paul told Timothy to charge certain ones to “not teach differently”.

In Revelation John said anyone who added or took away from the vision would be cursed.

Peter and Paul warned of those who “teach differently”, “Preach another gospel”, have “another Jesus”, etc.

To me the teaching and fellowship of the apostles is the New Testament. This is the authority in the church.

A big unanswered question is whether or not there are any more apostles. I tend to think there are, but I have to admit the “fellowship of the apostles” is complete, so that function for apostles is no longer open.


So basically this is called Sola Scriptura, only the Bible (or The New Testament in the case of the apostles teaching).

Concerning deification there is one article by the Christian Research Institute.
I post it in full. I think it is very instructive.





"Ye Are Gods?"
Orthodox and Heretical Views on the Deification of Man
by Robert M. Bowman, Jr.

from the Christian Research Journal, Winter/Spring 1987, page 18. The Editor-in-Chief of the Christian Research Journal is Elliot Miller.

Is the belief that men were created to be "gods," either in this life or in some future exaltation, a Christian teaching? Is it in any sense Christian to speak of the "deification" of man -- to say that God created or redeemed man in order to become deity? What do various religious groups who use such language today mean? Are they all saying the same thing? Are all who use such terminology heretics? If not, how do we tell the difference? All of these questions will be addressed in this article.

DIFFERENT IDEAS OF DEIFICATION

The first step in answering these interrelated questions is to recognize that talk about men being gods cannot be isolated from basic world views, or conceptions of the world and its relation to God. Norman Geisler and William Watkins have pointed out that there are seven basic world views: atheism (no God), polytheism (many gods), pantheism (God is all), panentheism (God is in all), finite godism (a finite god made the world), deism (a God who does not do miracles created the world), and theism, or monotheism (a God who does miracles created the world), which is the biblical view (and is held by orthodox Jews and Muslims as well as Christians).[1] Not all doctrines can be neatly categorized into one of these seven world views, since some people do hold to combinations of two views; but such positions are inherently inconsistent, and usually one world view is dominant.

In this article our concern will be with doctrines of deification which claim to be strictly Christian. (This means that we will not discuss, for example, New Age concepts of deification.) Varieties of such "Christian" views on deification can be found among adherents of monotheism, polytheism, and panentheism.

Monotheistic Deification

It may surprise some to learn that a monotheistic doctrine of deification was taught by many of the church fathers, and is believed by many Christians today, including the entire Eastern Orthodox church. In keeping with monotheism, the Eastern orthodox do not teach that men will literally become "gods" (which would be polytheism). Rather, as did many of the church fathers,[2] they teach that men are "deified" in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells within Christian believers and transforms them into the image of God in Christ, eventually endowing them in the resurrection with immortality and God's perfect moral character.

It may be objected that to classify as monotheistic any doctrine which refers to men in some positive sense as "gods" is self-contradictory; and strictly speaking such an objection is valid. Indeed, later in this study it shall be argued that such terminology is not biblical. However, the point here is that however inconsistent and confusing the language that is used (and it is inconsistent), the substance of what the Eastern Orthodox are seeking to express when they speak of deification is actually faithful to the monotheistic world view. The language used is polytheistic, and in the light of Scripture should be rejected; but the doctrine intended by this language in the context of the teachings of the fathers and of Eastern Orthodoxy is quite biblical, and is thus not actually polytheistic.

Thus, it should not be argued that anyone who speaks of "deification" necessarily holds to a heretical view of man. Such a sweeping judgment would condemn many of the early church's greatest theologians (e.g., Athanasius, Augustine), as well as one of the three main branches of historic orthodox Christianity in existence today. On the other hand, some doctrines of deification are most certainly heretical, because they are unbiblical in substance as well as in terminology.

Polytheistic Deification

Two examples of polytheistic doctrines of deification are the teachings of Mormonism and Armstrongism, although adherents of these religions generally do not admit to being polytheists.

The Mormons are very explicit in their "scriptures" that there are many Gods; for example, the three persons of the Trinity are regarded as three "Gods."[3] Since they believe that many Gods exist but at present worship only one -- God the Father -- at least one Mormon scholar has admitted with qualifications that their doctrine could be termed "henotheistic."[4] Henotheism is a variety of polytheism in which there are many gods, but only one which should be worshipped. Thus, the meaning of deification in Mormonism is radically different than that of the church fathers who used similar terms, despite Mormon arguments to the contrary.[5]

The Worldwide Church of God of Herbert W. Armstrong (who died early in 1986) claims to believe in only one God. However, Armstrongism defines "God" as a collective term (like "church" or "family") referring to a family of distinct beings all having the same essential nature. Presently this "God family" consists of two members, God the Father and Christ, but it is their plan to reproduce themselves in human beings and so add millions or even billions to the God family.[6] Therefore, by the normal use of words on which our categorizations are based, Armstrong's world view is also polytheistic.

Panentheistic Deification

An important example of a panentheistic doctrine of deification within professing Christianity is Union Life, founded by Norman Grubb, who at one time was a respected evangelical leader. In 1980 Cornerstone, an evangelical magazine, ran an article arguing that Union Life was teaching pantheism or panentheism.[7] Union Life has attempted to argue[8] that panentheism, unlike pantheism, is not heretical (despite Grubb's admission that he does not know the definition of pantheism![9]). However, neither pantheism nor panentheism separates the creation from the essential nature of the Creator, though panentheism does posit a differentiation in which the creation is the expression of the Creator. The heretical nature of Union Life is made evident by such statements as, "there is only One Person in the universe," "everything is God on a certain level of manifestation," and "Nothing but God exists!"[10] Therefore, Union Life's claim to following the tradition of the church fathers[11] is no more valid than that of the Mormons.

Positive Confession: Monotheistic or Polytheistic?

Not all views of the deification of man are easily classifiable. Perhaps the most difficult doctrine of deification to categorize into one of the seven basic world views is that of the "positive confession" or "faith" teachers, including Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Frederick K.C. Price, Charles Capps, Casey Treat, and many others.

In brief, the "faith" teaching maintains that God created man in "God's class," as "little gods," with the potential to exercise the "God kind of faith" in calling things into existence and living in prosperity and success as sovereign beings. We lost this opportunity by rebelling against God and receiving Satan's nature. To correct this situation, Christ became a man, died spiritually (receiving Satan's nature), went to Hell, was "born again," rose from the dead with God's nature, and then sent the Holy Spirit so that the Incarnation could be duplicated in believers, thus fulfilling their calling to be little gods. Since we are called to experience this kind of life now, we should experience success in everything we do, including health and financial prosperity.

Some aspects of this teaching have been documented and compared with Scripture in articles published in previous issues of this journal.[12] Regarding the claim that men are "little gods," there is no question (as shall be demonstrated shortly) that the language used is unbiblical, but are the ideas being conveyed contrary to Scripture as well? Specifically, is the world view of the "faith" teaching monotheistic or polytheistic?

A simple answer to this question is somewhat elusive. The positive confession teachers have made statements that seem polytheistic, and yet often in the same paragraph contradict themselves by asserting the truth of monotheism.[13] At least two positive confession teachers, Frederick K.C. Price and Casey Treat, have admitted that men are not literally gods and have promised not to use this terminology again.[14] In many cases, the dominant world view appears to be monotheism, with their teachings tending at times toward a polytheistic world view. It seems best, then, to regard the "faith" teaching as neither soundly monotheistic nor fully polytheistic, but instead as a confused mixture of both world views.

This means that the "faith" teaching of deification cannot be regarded as orthodox. Their concept of deification teaches that man has a "sovereign will" comparable to God's, and that man can therefore exercise the "God kind of faith" and command things to be whatever he chooses.[15] At least one "faith" teacher, Kenneth Copeland, seems to regard God as finite, since he says, speaking of Adam, "His body and God were exactly the same size."[16] Again, it is the context in which the doctrine appears that determines whether the teaching is orthodox or heretical. In this case, there seems to be significant evidence to show that some, at least, of the "faith" teachers have a heretical view of God, as well as a heretical view of the nature of the believer. Nevertheless, there also appears to be evidence that not all of the "faith" teachers are heretical in the same sense as, say, Mormonism or Armstrongism.

At this point we will turn to the biblical teaching relating to this subject to see whether the Bible teaches deification at all.

THE BIBLICAL TEACHING

All of the various doctrines of deification discussed above appeal to the same passages of Scripture and the same biblical themes to validate their teaching. Besides the passages where men are called "gods" or "sons of God," there are the biblical themes concerning men in the image of God; the close relationship between Christ and Christians; and the statement in 2 Peter 1:4 that Christians are "partakers of the divine nature." In this article we shall discuss briefly each of these texts and themes.

Are Men Called "Gods" in Scripture?

The Bible in both Old and New Testaments explicitly and repeatedly affirms that there is only one God (e.g.,Deut. 4:35-39; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19). Therefore, the Bible most definitely rejects any sort of polytheism, including henotheism.

The Scriptures also very clearly teach that God is an absolutely unique being who is distinct from the world as its Creator (e.g.,Gen. 1:1; John 1:3; Rom. 1:25; Heb. 11:3). This teaching rules out pantheism and panentheism, according to which the world is either identical to God or an essential aspect of God. Since He is eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, God is totally unique, so that there is none even like God (e.g.,Ps. 102:25-27; Isa. 40-46; Acts 17:24-28).[17] The Bible, then, unmistakably teaches a monotheistic world view.

In the face of so many explicit statements that there is only one God, and in light of His uniqueness, it may seem surprising that anyone would claim that the Bible teaches that men are gods. However, there are a few passages in Scripture which seem to call men "god" or "gods." Most or all of these, however, are irrelevant to any doctrine of deification. In practice, the question of whether the Bible ever calls men "gods" in a positive sense focuses exclusively on Psalm 82:6 ("I said, 'you are gods'") and its citation by Jesus in John 10:34-35.

The usual view among biblical expositors for centuries is that Psalm 82 refers to Israelite judges by virtue of their position as judges representing God; it is, therefore, a figurative usage which applies only to those judges and does not apply to men or even believers in general. If this interpretation is correct, Psalm 82:6 is also irrelevant to any doctrine of Christian deification.

An alternative interpretation agrees that the "gods" are Israelite judges, but sees the use of the term "gods" as an ironic figure of speech. Irony is a rhetorical device in which something is said to be the case in such a way as to make the assertion seem ridiculous (compare Paul's ironic "you have become kings" in 1 Corinthians 4:8, where Paul's point is that they had not become kings). According to this interpretation, the parallel description of the "gods" as "sons of the Most High" (which, it is argued, is not in keeping with the Old Testament use of the term "sons" of God), the condemnation of the judges for their wicked judgment, and especially the statement, "Nevertheless, you will die as men," all point to the conclusion that the judges are called "gods" in irony.

If the former interpretation is correct, then in John 10:34-35 Jesus would be understood to mean that if God called wicked judges "gods" how much more appropriate is it for Him, Jesus, to be called God, or even the Son of God. If the ironic interpretation of Psalm 82:6 is correct, then in John 10:34-35 Jesus' point would still be basically the same. It is also possible that Jesus was implying that the Old Testament application of the term "gods" to wicked judges was fulfilled (taking "not to be broken" to mean "not to be unfulfilled," cf. John 7:23) in Himself as the true Judge (cf. John 5:22,27-30; 9:39).[18] Those wicked men were, then, at best called "gods" and "sons of the Most High" in a special and figurative sense; and at worst they were pseudo-gods and pseudo-sons of God. Jesus, on the other hand, is truly God (cf. John 1:1,18; 20:28; 1 John 5:20) and the unique Son of God (John 10:36; 20:31; etc.)

Neither the representative nor the ironic interpretation of Psalm 82 allows it (or John 10:34-35) to be understood to teach that men were created or redeemed to be gods. Nor is there any other legitimate interpretation which would allow for such a conclusion. The Israelite judges were wicked men condemned to death by the true God, and therefore were not by any definition of deification candidates for godhood.

If, then, the deification of man is to be found in Scripture, it will have to be on the basis of other biblical texts or themes, as Scripture gives men the title of "gods" only in a figurative or condemnatory sense.

The Image of God: An Exact Duplicate?

One biblical teaching upon which great emphasis is usually laid by those who teach some form of the deification of man is the doctrine of man as created and redeemed in the image of God. Of the many examples that could be given, two will have to suffice. Casey Treat's claim that man is an "exact duplicate" of God is based on his understanding of the meaning of "image" in Genesis 1:26-27.[19] The Mormon apologetic for their doctrine that God is an exalted Man and that men can also become Gods typically appeals to the image of God in man, and to the parallel passage in Genesis 5:1-3 where Adam is said to have begotten Seth "in his own likeness, after his own image" (Genesis 5:1-3).[20]

These claims raise two questions. Does the creation of man in the image of God imply that God Himself is an exalted man (as in Mormonism), or perhaps a spirit with the physical form or shape of a man (as in Armstrongism)? And does the image of God in man imply that men may become "gods"? There are several reasons why such conclusions are incorrect.

First, there are the biblical statements which say that God is not a man (Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Hos.11:9). Second, there is the biblical teaching on the attributes of God already mentioned, according to which God obviously cannot now or ever have been a man (except in the sense that the second person of the triune God became a man by taking upon Himself a second nature different from the nature of deity). Third, in the context of Genesis 1:26-27 and 5:1-3 there is one very important difference between the relationship between God and Adam on the one hand and Adam and Seth on the other hand: Adam was created or made by God, while Seth was begotten by Adam. To create or make something in the image or likeness of someone means to make something of a different kind that nevertheless somehow "pictures" or represents that someone (cf. Luke 20:24-25). It is therefore a mistake to reason backwards from the creation of man in God's image to deduce the nature of God. Genesis 1:26-27 is telling us something about man, not about God.

Besides the passages in Genesis (see also 9:6), the Old Testament says nothing else about the image of God. The New Testament teaches that man is still in God's image (1 Cor. 11:7; James 3:9), but also says that, in some unique sense, Christ is the image of God (2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15). Christians are by virtue of their union with Christ being conformed to the image of God and of Christ resulting finally (after this life) in glorification (2 Cor. 3:18; Rom. 8:29-30), which includes moral perfection (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and an immortal physical body like Christ's (1 Cor. 15:49; cf. Phil. 3:21).

Orthodox biblical theologians and scholars do have some differences of opinion as to how best to define and explain what these passages mean by the "image of God."[21] However, these differences are relatively minor, and do not obscure the basic truth of the image, which is that man was created as a physical representation (not a physical reproduction or "exact duplicate") of God in the world. As such, he was meant to live forever, to know God personally, to reflect His moral character -- His love -- through human relationships, and to exercise dominion over the rest of the living creatures on the earth (Gen. 1:28-30; cf. Ps. 8:5-8).

From the biblical teaching on the image of God, then, there is nothing which would warrant the conclusion that men are or will ever be "gods," even "little gods," as the "faith" teachers often put it.

Sons of God: Like Begets Like?

Although men are never called "gods" in an affirmative sense in Scripture, believers in Christ are called "sons" or "children" of God (John 1:12; Rom. 8:14-23; Gal. 4:5-7; 1 John 3:1-2; etc.). Based on the assumption that sons are of the same nature as their father, some conclude that since believers are sons of God, they must also be gods. This reasoning is thought to be confirmed by those passages in John's writings which speak of believers as being "begotten" or "born" of God (John 1:13; 3:5-6; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1,4,18).

As convincing as this argument may seem, it actually goes beyond the Bible's teaching and is at best erroneous and at worse heretical. The above Scriptures do not mean that the "sonship" of believers is a reproduction of God's essence in man for the following reasons.

1/ In one sense all human beings are God's "offspring" (Acts 17:28), so that even Adam could be called God's "son" (Luke 3:38); yet this cannot mean that human beings are gods or have the same nature as God, for the reasons already given in our analysis of the "image of God".

2/ Paul speaks of our sonship as an "adoption" (Rom. 8:15,23; Gal. 4:5), which of course suggests that we are not "natural" sons of God.

3/ John, who frequently speaks of Christians as having been "begotten" by God, also tells us that Jesus Christ is the "only-begotten" or "unique" Son of God (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). At the very least, this means that we are not sons of God in the same sense that Christ is the Son of God, nor will we ever be. Christ was careful to distinguish between His Sonship and that of His followers (e.g., John 20:17). For this reason Kenneth Copeland's assertion that "Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God"[22] must be regarded as false doctrine.

4/ Finally, the New Testament itself always interprets the spiritual birth which makes believers sons, not as a conversion of men into gods, but as a renewal in the moral likeness of God, produced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and resulting in an intimate relationship with God as a Father who provides for His children's needs (Matt. 5:9, 45; 6:8, 10, 32; 7:11,21; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 4:6-7; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-5).

The biblical doctrine that believers in Christ are children of God is a glorious teaching, to be sure, and what it means we do not yet fully know (1 John 3:2). But we do know something about what it means, as well as what it does not mean. It does mean eternal life with Christ-like holiness and love, in which the full potential of human beings as the image of God is realized. But it does not mean that we shall cease to be creatures, or that "human potential" is infinite, or that men shall be gods.

Union with Christ: Are Christians Incarnations of God?

The doctrine that Christians are adopted sons of God is closely related to the doctrine of the spiritual union between Christ and Christian believers. This union is expressed both as a union between Christ and the individual believer and as a union of Christ and the church. Paul in particular teaches that Christians are "in Christ" (a phrase which occurs over 160 times in Paul's letters), "with Christ" in His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension (Rom. 6:3-8; Eph. 2:5-6), corporately the "body" of Christ (Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:12; Col. 1:18), that they have Christ, or the Spirit of Christ, dwelling within (Rom. 8:9-11; 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:17-20; 2 Cor. 13:5; Eph. 3:16-17), and that Christ Himself is their "life" (Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:4). On the basis of this teaching, many have concluded that Christians are in fact either a corporate extension of the Incarnation (as the church) or replications of the Incarnation (as individual Christians). Such a conclusion is often tied to the teaching of some concept of deification. The question is, does the Bible support such a conclusion?

As with the doctrine of Christians as the sons of God, such ideas go far beyond the teaching of Scripture. To say that believers are "in Christ" means that they are somehow spiritually united to Christ, not that they are Christ. When Paul says that we have been crucified, buried, raised, and ascended with Christ, he is not speaking literally, but means simply that by virtue of our legal identification and close spiritual relationship with Christ we benefit by His death and resurrection. The teaching that the church is the body of Christ is also not to be taken literally, and should not be pressed to imply that the church is Christ or even an essential part of Christ. That the relationship between Christ and the church involves a substantial union without the church becoming Christ is best seen in the figure of the church as the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:28-32): the bride is physically united to her husband, yet they remain distinct. The Spirit indwells the believer, to be sure, but the believer does not become divine as a result, any more than the temple under the old covenant became a part of God simply because His presence filled it (cf. 1 Cor. 3:17). Christ is our life, not in the sense that our individuality is replaced by His person, but in the sense that we have eternal and spiritual life through our union with Him.

Finally, the notion that each believer is somehow a duplicate of the Incarnation deserves a closer look. The rationale for this view is that an "incarnation" is defined as the indwelling of God in a human being; and since, we are told, this is as true of the Christian as it was of Christ, it follows that the Christian, as Kenneth Hagin puts it, "is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth."[23] The error in this reasoning lies in the definition of "incarnation." Christ was not merely God dwelling in a human being, a heresy (known as Nestorianism) the early church condemned because it meant that the Word did not actually become flesh (John 1:14) but only joined Himself to a human being. Rather, the incarnate Christ was one person in whom were perfectly united two natures, deity and humanity; the Christian is a person with one nature, human, in whom a separate person, God the Holy Spirit (and through Him, the Father and the Son as well), dwells.

Does Partaking of the Divine Nature Make Us Gods?

In 2 Peter 1:4 we are told that through God's promises Christians may "become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." This text, even more so than Psalm 82, has suggested to many a doctrine of deification. And indeed, if by deification one means simply "partaking of the divine nature," then such "deification" is unquestionably biblical. The question, then, is what does Peter mean by "partakers of divine nature"?

Since the word "divine" is used earlier in the same sentence ("His divine power", verse 3), where it must mean "of God," "divine nature" must mean God's nature. The word "nature," however, should not be understood to mean "essence." Rather, as the context makes evident, Peter is speaking of God's moral nature or character. Thus Christians are by partaking of the divine nature to escape the corruption that is in the world because of sinful lust, and are instead to exhibit the moral attributes of Christ (cf. verses 5-11).

DISCERNING ORTHODOX FROM HERETICAL TEACHINGS

It is not always easy to tell the difference between heretical and orthodox doctrines. Often people of different religions use the same or nearly the same words to express widely different ideas. One of the marks of the "cults," in fact, is the use of Christian terminology to express non-Christian concepts.[24] This is very much the case with deification.

How, then, can Christians tell the difference? There are four essential elements to an orthodox view of the relationship between God and man, and any doctrine which compromises or denies these teachings is less than soundly orthodox. These four elements are monotheism, trinitarianism, incarnationalism, and evangelicalism.

Monotheism, as has already been explained, is the view that a single, unique, infinite Being (called God) created all other beings out of nothing, and that this Creator will forever be the only real, true God. Trinitarianism is the distinctive Christian revelation of God, according to which the one God exists eternally as three distinct but inseparable persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.[25] Incarnationalism is the teaching that the second person of the Trinity (called the "Word" in John 1:1, 14, and the "Son" in Matthew 28:19), without ceasing to be God, became flesh, uniting uniquely in His one undivided person the two natures of deity and humanity. Evangelicalism is the belief that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

With these four criteria of orthodoxy in mind, how do the various doctrines of deification measure up? The doctrines of the church fathers, as well as of Eastern Orthodoxy, are, as we have already indicated, thoroughly orthodox on all four points. Mormonism and Armstrongism fail on all four counts, and are therefore heretical. Union Life appears to hold to the Trinity and salvation by grace, but sets these doctrines in the context of panentheism; therefore, it too is heretical.

But what shall we say about the "faith" teachers? They do affirm a monotheistic world view and generally affirm the Trinity (though there is some evidence of confusion on that score). Some at least of these teachers consider the Christian to be as much an incarnation as Jesus, and thus fail the third test. Most speak unguardedly of man as existing in "God's class," of being the same "kind" as God, and so forth, even while occasionally making disclaimers about men never becoming equal to God. Are these teachers heretics, or are they orthodox?

It may be that a simple black-or-white approach to this question is inappropriate in some cases. Certainly these teachers are not to be placed in the same category as Mormonism and Armstrongism, since the "faith" teachers affirm monotheism and trinitarianism. Yet too many statements have been made by these teachers which can only be called heretical, though it may be that such statements are due to carelessness or hyperbole and not actual heretical belief. It is to be hope that the "faith" teachers will recognize the errors of their unbiblical statements and repent of them. Until that time, their doctrine of men being "little gods" is so far from being orthodox that it should not be placed in that category either. How, then, should we categorize such teachings?

In recent years ministries which specialize in discerning orthodox from heretical teachings have been using the term "aberrational" to describe teachings which do not fit neatly into either the orthodox or heretical category. Specifically, "heretical" teaching explicitly denies essential biblical truth, while "aberrational" teaching compromises or confuses essential biblical truth. Both are in error, but a heresy is an outright rejection or opposition to truth, while an aberration is a distortion or misunderstanding of truth only. Aberrational teachers affirm the essential doctrines of orthodoxy, and then go on to teach doctrines that compromise or are otherwise inconsistent with orthodoxy, while heretics actually deny one or more of the essentials.

It we apply this distinction to the cases at hand, their usefulness becomes apparent. Mormonism and Armstrongism both explicitly reject certain essential teachings of orthodoxy; they are therefore heretical. Union Life rejects monotheism in favor of panentheism; it is also heretical. Many of the "faith" teachers affirm the essentials, but then go on to teach doctrines which undermine their professed orthodoxy; their doctrine is aberrational and false. On the other hand, there are, unfortunately, at least some "faith" teachers (for example, Kenneth Copeland) whose teachings are so opposed to orthodoxy that they can only be regarded as heretical.

It is not always easy to decide whether a teaching is orthodox, aberrational, or heretical. Nevertheless, it can be done, and we should not allow the unpopularity of making doctrinal judgments to deter us from the necessary (if sometimes unpleasant) task of evaluating questionable teaching. In doing so, we must avoid the extreme of labeling as heretics absolutely everyone who uses the term "deification," as well as the extreme of regarding as Christian any doctrine of deification which makes reference to Christ. It is the substance of each doctrine which must be examined as the basis for discerning whether it is orthodox, aberrational, or heretical. Only in this way can the church's calling to "test the spirits, to see whether they are from God" (1 John 4:1) be fulfilled.

NOTES

1 Norman Geisler and William Watkins, Perspectives: Understanding and Evaluating Today's World Views (San Bernardino, CA: Here's Life, 1984).
2 See, for example, Gerald Bonner, "Augustine's Conception of Deification," Journal of Theological Studies, n.s., 37 (Oct. 1986): 369-386.
3 Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City, UT: Bookcraft, 1966), 317.
4 Van Hale, "Defining the Mormon Doctrine of Deity," Sunstone 10, 1 (1985), 25-26.
5 See especially Philip Barlow, "Unorthodox Orthodoxy: The Idea of Deification in Christian History," Sunstone 9 (Sept.-Oct. 1984), 13-18.
6 See "A Summary Critique: Mystery of the Ages, Herbert W. Armstrong," elsewhere in this issue of CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL.
7 "A Case in Point: Union Life," Cornerstone, 9, 52 (1980), 32-36.
8 Norman Grubb, "The Question Box," Union Life 6 (May-June 1981), 23.
9 Norman Grubb, "The Question Box," Union Life 6 (July-Aug. 1981), 23.
10 See "A Case in Point: Union Life," 32-33.
11 Tom Carroll, "The Mystery According to St. Augustine," Union Life 10 (Nov.-Dec. 1985), 20-21.
12 Brian A. Onken, "A Misunderstanding of Faith," FORWARD 5 (1982), and Onken, "The Atonement of Christ and the 'Faith' Message," FORWARD 7 (1984).
13 E.g., Casey Treat, Complete Confidence: The Attitude for Success (Seattle, WA: Casey Treat Ministries, 1985), 319-324.
14 At private meetings between Walter Martin and Larry Duckworth with Frederick K.C. Price on May 1, 1986, and between Walter Martin and Casey Treat in early April, 1987.
15 Treat, 82-83, 306-327; Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1972), iii.
16 Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition, lvi.
17 On the biblical teaching on the nature of God, see The Nature and Attributes of God, by Robert and Gretchen Passantino of CARIS (write to CARIS, P.O. Box 2067, Costa Mesa, CA 92628), or this author's outline study, "The Attributes of God," available from CRI (order #DA-250).
18 E. Jungkuntz, "An Approach to the Exegesis of John 10:34-36," Concordia Theological Monthly 35 (1964):560.
19 Casey Treat, Renewing the Mind: The Arena for Success (Seattle, WA: Casey Treat Ministries, 1985), 90.
20 Barlow, 17.
21 See G.C. Berkouwer, Man: The Image of God, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1962), 37-118.
22 Kenneth Copeland, Now We Are in Christ Jesus (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1980), 24.
23 Kenneth E. Hagin, "The Incarnation," The Word of Faith (Dec. 1980), 14.
24 Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, rev. ed. (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 1985), 18-24.
25 Introductory literature on the Trinity is available from CRI.

End of document, CRJ0018A.TXT (original CRI file name),
"'Ye Are Gods?' Orthodox and Heretical Views on the Deification of Man"
release A, February 7, 1994
R. Poll, CRI

A special note of thanks to Bob and Pat Hunter for their help in the preparation of this ASCII file for BBS circulation.

Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute.

COPYRIGHT/REPRODUCTION LIMITATIONS:
This data file is the sole property of the Christian Research Institute. It may not be altered or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as "freeware," without charge. All reproductions of this data file must contain the copyright notice (i.e., "Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute"). This data file may not be used without the permission of the Christian Research Institute for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold. This includes all of its content with the exception of a few brief quotations not to exceed more than 500 words.

If you desire to reproduce less than 500 words of this data file for resale or the enhancement of any other product for resale, please give the following source credit: Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000.



http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0018a.html