The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada [Archive]

OBW

04-25-2008, 01:18 PM

Vern's speaking on functioning blew my concepts. For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening.
If this is the recent conference that Nigel, Vern and John did, I read some of the transcripts. I guess I did not read this particular one, but maybe I should.

I think you are onto something here. We were all trying to come up with the right thing to say so that we would be “in the flow” and get a lot of enthusiastic “amens.”

When you say “intently listening,” I think that was the key. If what was being spoken was really of value, we should have been intent to listen, and even contemplate what we had just heard. But instead, we were thinking about our own words while we left one ear marginally tuned in to hear the buzz words that warranted an “amen” or “hallelujah.” There would be no pause at the end of any speaking for contemplation. Someone was spring-loaded and pulled the lever to pop-up and continue the free-for-all.

So functioning looked more like a circular massaging of each others’ shoulders. I’ll make you feel good if you make me feel good.

I really enjoy taking time to consider the things I read and hear. Sometimes that extra time results in revelation that could never come from straining to get my own two cents worth into the fray. My function is not popcorn speaking. It is not active evangelism. It surely wasn’t door knocking in the mid-80s.

On that last one, I think that is among the reasons that we left. Not simply because of door knocking, but because all the energies of the LC went into that activity and there was nothing for those who weren’t gung-ho for it. My wife I needed more than door knocking and “just call on the Lord” but it was not to be found.

TLFisher

04-25-2008, 10:10 PM

When you say “intently listening,” I think that was the key. If what was being spoken was really of value, we should have been intent to listen, and even contemplate what we had just heard. But instead, we were thinking about our own words while we left one ear marginally tuned in to hear the buzz words that warranted an “amen” or “hallelujah.”

My function is not popcorn speaking. It is not active evangelism. It surely wasn’t door knocking in the mid-80s.

On that last one, I think that is among the reasons that we left. Not simply because of door knocking, but because all the energies of the LC went into that activity and there was nothing for those who weren’t gung-ho for it. My wife I needed more than door knocking and “just call on the Lord” but it was not to be found.

By listening intently, it's about giving undivided attention to the speaker and not thinking about what you're going to say. Often saying amen becomes routinely habitual without realizing what am you or I saying amen too.
Off topic a bit, back in the mid-eighties era of door knocking it was often suggested to "turn to your spirit" in order to solve problems, issues, etc.
What I sense you and your wife needed is a few brothers and sisters to give a prayer in your presence. Whether or not the prayer is answered, it's encouraging, comforting, and healing to be prayed for in such an intimate informal manner.

Terry

Testing123

05-28-2008, 10:17 AM

For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening.

Terry, I appreciate the concept, but what is the implication here? Is that certain speakers ("gifted" speakers) like Vern should be given more time to speak, and that everyone else should "intently listen." It might be my anti-hierarchy streak showing, but I'm always a little skeptical when "speaking brothers" like these make such points in defense of their own prerogative to speak more than everyone else.

TLFisher

05-29-2008, 11:36 PM

Terry, I appreciate the concept, but what is the implication here? Is that certain speakers ("gifted" speakers) like Vern should be given more time to speak, and that everyone else should "intently listen." It might be my anti-hierarchy streak showing, but I'm always a little skeptical when "speaking brothers" like these make such points in defense of their own prerogative to speak more than everyone else.

Testing123, that was not my implication nor consideration that certain gifted speakers would have more time to speak. If a brother or sister has a burden to speak, they ought to.

Terry

Testing123

06-04-2008, 08:18 AM

Testing123, that was not my implication nor consideration that certain gifted speakers would have more time to speak. If a brother or sister has a burden to speak, they ought to.

Terry

Sorry, Terry - I didn't mean to imply that this is what you proposed. Rather, this is what comes to mind for me when I hear these "gifted speakers" defend their right to remain "gifted speakers" at the expense of everyone else in the congregation. It seems like something of a conflict of interest.

TLFisher

06-05-2008, 11:45 PM

Sorry, Terry - I didn't mean to imply that this is what you proposed. Rather, this is what comes to mind for me when I hear these "gifted speakers" defend their right to remain "gifted speakers" at the expense of everyone else in the congregation. It seems like something of a conflict of interest.

Testing123, no problem. From my perspective "gifted speakers" have no need to defend their right to remain gifted speakers. I consider a brother I am acquainted where I meet on Saturday nights. By circumstance I am unfamilar with, several elders from the Church in Seattle suggested he meet elsewhere. This was back in the late eighties; a good 5-6 years before I moved to the northwest. My thought was how could the Church in Seattle let such a gifted teacher get away? Whether with the Church in Seattle or another congregation, this brother would be teaching the Word.

Back to the message that was spoken, what I got out of it was gifts we have should be encouraged, developed and not discouraged. Gifts should not be treated as a rivalry, but as a way to enhance the churchlife.

Terry

UntoHim

07-09-2008, 10:44 AM

Discussions and reports regarding the MidWest/GLA area.

Old Rasputin

07-10-2008, 10:53 PM

I've heard about a new hymnal in the works, but quite honestly, things aren't as standardized as they used to be. Several new youth songbooks have been circulating in the past years, and some congregations sing out of them quite a bit. At least two congregations I am aware of have mostly dispensed with hymnals and instead use a projector to display words to hymns via Powerpoint.

Old Rasputin

07-11-2008, 07:14 PM

These bi-annual youth conferences have been lightning rods for criticism, controversy, and dissension both before and after the Anaheim-GLA split. They are also a handy litmus test to see where various saints and churches stand on certain matters regarding what practices are allowed, etc. They also seem to be the strongest engine of change within the GLA, Nigel and the Concerned Brothers not excepted. I'd like to know what others think of Mountain Top.

Peter Debelak

07-11-2008, 07:48 PM

I have some thoughts on this, but since they were more general than these conferences, I started another Thread entitle "Raising the Children of Christians...

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-11-2008, 08:03 PM

OldRasp do you mean after the split with Anaheim that within the spin off GLA churches there is dissension about this issue? Just trying to get clarification about what you posted. Thanks.

Old Rasputin

07-11-2008, 08:16 PM

OldRasp do you mean after the split with Anaheim that within the spin off GLA churches there is dissension about this issue?

Yes, you said it better than I did! I think that Mountaintop and Ignite are still controversial items in the GLA churches. When discussing John Myers or Nigel Tomes we often comment on the rate and direction of change in the churches they influence and possible resistance to them. I think these youth conferences are a useful place to observe new directions being tested by young leaders in the GLA as well as criticisms of some of those new directions.

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-11-2008, 09:42 PM

Thanks for clarification Old Rasp. I had the mistaken impression that the youth ministry that includes Ignite, etc was widely accepted in the GLA area except among the LSM die hards who have since split off. What is it that some people find so objectionable?

Old Rasputin

07-11-2008, 09:44 PM

A common criticism seems to be that it is spiritually shallow.

KSA

07-12-2008, 01:10 AM

A common criticism seems to be that it is spiritually shallow.

Yes, 'cause they use "worldly music" and go amusement parks. :D

Old Rasputin

07-12-2008, 08:20 AM

Amusement parks? I hadn't heard that one. I miss all the fun.

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-12-2008, 08:23 AM

In addition to music and amusement parks I assume there is some content taught at a level they would appreciate and understand and can relate to. So there are several things going on during the event: music, activities, teaching, playing pranks on each other or other cabins, quiet time devotionals, one on one counseling, socializing a/k/a hanging out, etc. Is my assumption correct?

Testing123

07-12-2008, 01:06 PM

Recently, I've been able to get hold of a copy of the directory booklet - "United States, Canada, Mexico, Central America & Caribbean: Church Addresses, 2008-2009" published by "The Church Address Book Project" in Anaheim (the mailing address for the publisher is that of the service office of the Church in Anaheim located in the building used by the Acaciawood School). This is the first updated book to be published since the 2005-2006 edition. One disclaimer at the beginning states - "This booklet is not an 'official' list of churches, but is a source of information only." Also - "The brothers whose names are listed to contact for each place are not necessarily elders."

Given the current climate in the LC related to the "Great Lakes Area" churches, I wanted to see how those groups had been handled in terms of their entries in this church directory. Not surprisingly, there are very substantial changes. Note: it would not be possible for me to determine whether the churches removed had chosen to be taken out, or whether they were removed against their wishes; perhaps someone like Norm could clarify. Nonetheless, this may, de facto, be seen as a presentation of those groups no longer recognized as legitimate LCs by the leadership in the rest of the country.

Some of the changes will, of course, be unrelated to the events surrounding the GLA. Also, some of the churches in this exercise would not have been affected in the first place, being at the far reaches of the relevant territory (I have not even categorized New York City or Philadelphia here, as they are not even relevant). However, for the sake of organization, I've compared all of the other listings in both books for the states of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. I've compared Canadian GLA churches here (link) (http://www.localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=151).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Without Substantial Changes

Chicago (Irving Park), IL
Glen Carbon, IL
Palatine, IL
Streamwood, IL

Lafayette, IN

Iowa City, IA

Bloomfield Hills, MI
Kalamazoo, MI
Wixom, MI

Brooklyn Park, MN

Hazelwood, MO
Kansas City, MO

Elyria, OH
Fairborn, OH

Danville, PA

Eau Claire, WI
Milwaukee, WI

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Removed in the New Edition

Chicago (Downtown), IL
Naperville, IL

Goshen, IN
Indianapolis, IN

Des Moines, IA

Detroit, MI
Grand Rapids, MI
Troy, MI

Minneapolis, MN

Columbia, MO
Joplin, MO
St. Louis, MO

Buffalo, NY (replaced with Amherst, NY)

Akron, OH
Cambridge, OH
Cincinnati, OH
Cleveland, OH
Dayton, OH
Lorain, OH
Shaker Heights, OH
Toledo, OH
Westlake, OH
Willoughby, OH

Manheim, PA (replaced with Lancaster, PA)
New Oxford, PA
State College, PA

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs With New Information (Replaced or Restructured)

Ames, IA (new leadership, new addresses)

Ann Arbor, MI (new leadership, new addresses)

Rochester, MN (new leadership)

Amherst, NY (replaced Buffalo, NY)

Columbus, OH (new leadership)
Mansfield, OH (new leadership)

Lancaster, PA (replaced Manheim, PA)
Pittsburgh, PA (new leadership, new addresses)

Madison, WI (new leadership, new addresses)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
New LCs in the New Edition

Champaign-Urbana, IL
Waukegan, IL

East Lansing, MI

Rochester, NY

Dallas, PA
Hershey, PA

Testing123

07-12-2008, 01:20 PM

Recently, I've been able to get hold of a copy of the directory booklet - "United States, Canada, Mexico, Central America & Caribbean: Church Addresses, 2008-2009" published by "The Church Address Book Project" in Anaheim (the mailing address for the publisher is that of the service office of the Church in Anaheim located in the building used by the Acaciawood School). This is the first updated book to be published since the 2005-2006 edition. One disclaimer at the beginning states - "This booklet is not an 'official' list of churches, but is a source of information only." Also - "The brothers whose names are listed to contact for each place are not necessarily elders."

Given the current climate in the LC related to the "Great Lakes Area" churches, I wanted to see how those groups had been handled in terms of their entries in this church directory. Not surprisingly, there are very substantial changes. Note: it would not be possible for me to determine whether the churches removed had chosen to be taken out, or whether they were removed against their wishes; perhaps someone like Norm could clarify. Nonetheless, this may, de facto, be seen as a presentation of those groups no longer recognized as legitimate LCs by the leadership in the rest of the country.

Some of the changes will, of course, be unrelated to the events surrounding the GLA. Also, some of the churches in this exercise would not have been affected in the first place, being at the far reaches of the relevant territory. However, for the sake of organization, I've compared all of the other listings in both books for the provinces of Ontario, Nova Scotia, and Quebec. A post with US churches is here (link) (http://www.localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=150).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Without Substantial Changes

Halifax, NS

Adelaide-Metcalfe, ON
Brampton, ON
Kitchener, ON
London, ON
Markham, ON
Ottawa, ON
St. Catherines, ON
Toronto (Hall 1), ON}
Toronto (Hall 2), ON} (replaced with Toronto, ON)
Toronto (Hall 3), ON}

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Removed in the New Edition

Mississauga, ON

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs With New Information (Replaced or Restructured)

Montreal, QC (new addresses, new leadership)
Toronto, ON (new addresses, new leadership)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
New LCs in the New Edition

Kingston, ON

TLFisher

07-12-2008, 02:53 PM

Suannehill

07-12-2008, 04:56 PM

A common criticism seems to be that it is spiritually shallow.

To be honest...I was so touched watching those young people pray and confess with tears in their eyes...
Only a hardened believer could call that shallow.

KSA

07-12-2008, 11:08 PM

Here we go: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7401418963309765833&q=MountainTop+2008&ei=Lwx5SP2dNI-AiwKv7_nVDg&hl=en

AndPeter

07-13-2008, 04:21 PM

Here is a 20 minute snapshot of the 4 day event. MountainTop 2008 Snapshot (http://churchintoronto.org/Video.htm).

Today over 20 young people from Toronto (most of whom attended MountainTop 2008) have joined the 5 day Gospel Odyssey. Even the normally quiet ones have an inward speaking to go.

Steve

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-13-2008, 04:38 PM

AndPeter I couldn't open the link. Am I doing something wrong?

AndPeter

07-13-2008, 05:01 PM

AndPeter I couldn't open the link. Am I doing something wrong?

FIXED. There was a double HTTP:

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-13-2008, 05:31 PM

MountainTop and Ignite seem fine to me.

I really can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with doing a Christian summer camp for jr high and high school kids. What's all the fuss about? In addition to our summer family vacations we send our kids to a one week camp every year. One of these camps had over a 1000 kids from various Christian backgrounds all coming together for a week of fun and fellowship i.e. Hume Lake: http://www.humelake.org/content/yc_.php . They had a great time, made friends, learned, played sports, etc. What's wrong with that? They have since graduated from high school but they have very fond memories of those days at camp.

SpeakersCorner

07-13-2008, 06:06 PM

One phrase Nigel uttered from message six should become our reality:
"we don't have it all, but we have a contribution"

I took his speaking as meaning when we gather with other Christians, we shouldn't act or conduct ourselves as Biblical know it alls, but we do have a content and a portion of Christ to share....

Terry,

I can't recall Nigel's exact utterance, but I do believe he was touching on one of the crucial matters being discussed these days in the GLAs: how do we fit into the general body of Christ? Of course, from our LC days we thought ourselves to be a special subset of the body, but when that evolved into exclusivism, sectarianism, arrogance, etc., it revealed something underlying this idea of being "special" that is very dangerous. John Myers talked about this as well in the Goshen conference.

As for me, I'm not so sure where I stand on this issue. It seems to me that any subset within the body of Christ -- and by that I mean any church, sect, denomination, etc. -- must be a subset for a reason and that reason is related to having a clearer view of God's operation. I know the Mennonites around me clearly feel they understand peace issues better than the general body and that's one big reason they stay together. Likewise, Baptists clearly think they understand salvation and the "fundamentals" of the faith better than others and that's what keeps them, at least in part, together.

Further, I would say that the diminishing of the mainline groups is in large part because they are losing their sense of "specialness" or distinctiveness. It just seems to me that the reason we meet with whoever we do is because we have a common vision that we feel is better in some way than others around us.

Anyway, I'm grappling with these issues.

BTW, I'm the old "SpeakersCorner" from the other forum. I registered as such but never got an email response so I couldn't activate my account. If I were a paranoid sort, I'd think maybe they didn't want me here ... but I know that can't be true. They allowed Ohio in. (Just kidding, Ohio! It was a joke.)

SC or, sadly I guess now, LC

(Hm, this may not work at all.)

SpeakersCorner

07-13-2008, 06:19 PM

In addition to our summer family vacations we send our kids to a one week camp every year. One of these camps had over a 1000 kids from various Christian backgrounds all coming together for a week of fun and fellowship i.e. Hume Lake: http://www.humelake.org/content/yc_.php . They had a great time, made friends, learned, played sports, etc. What's wrong with that? They have since graduated from high school but they have very fond memories of those days at camp.

dj,

You used the taboo word: fun. Didn't you know fun is wrong? Just ask the BB.

I grew up going to church camp. Yes, there were some dorky elements such as sitting around the campfire on the last night, making some kind of declarartion then throwing your ember into the fire, the girls all crying, the guys fidgeting the whole time. And there were too many meetings, too much promotion of the Baptist way. And usually there was a counselor or two who were too weird to be believed.

But then there was the swimming, the canoeing, the archery, the tetherball, the softball, the ping-pong, the cafeteria meals with the even dorkier chants ("Mabel, Mabel, kind and able, get your elbows off the table"), the meeting of kids from other regions, other churches, the Bible memory, the general sense that there was meaning and form to the universe ... these experiences were far more grounding than any of us realized at the time.

Watch any LSM video of a meeting or conference of young people (try "LastAdam.org") and you'll see the antithesis of all this. Really, they're painful for me to watch, especially since I am so soon removed from that system. The LSM simply have lost touch with what it is to be a human being starting with being a kid.

LC-Span

KSA

07-14-2008, 01:48 AM

I got so much pleasure when I watched the video from Mountain Top. The Spirit was obviously there. May the Lord bless brothers who labor there! Their labor is not vain in the Lord.

aron

07-14-2008, 07:36 AM

Watch any LSM video of a meeting or conference of young people (try "LastAdam.org") and you'll see the antithesis of all this. Really, they're painful for me to watch, especially since I am so soon removed from that system. The LSM simply have lost touch with what it is to be a human being starting with being a kid.

SpeakersCorner/Span,

See Peter Debelak's characterization of "the program" in his "Raising Christian Children" thread. The children are a commodity, to be 'processed', like the Triune God was. To the dear serving ones, almost to a man/woman, the children are not; they are dear and precious. But to the program they are commodities to be pushed through. We are to be hustled to the 'high peak' of 'vital groups' and so forth. It is painful to watch, I agree. I didn't watch the lastadam.org video, but I was there for years. I remember it well.

May God bless you today. aron

p.s. I did watch the mountaintop video and loved it. I recognized one of the dear saints there and was so happy! We are one. There is no division in the body of Christ.

Ohio

07-14-2008, 11:59 AM

BTW, I'm the old "SpeakersCorner" from the other forum. I registered as such but never got an email response so I couldn't activate my account. If I were a paranoid sort, I'd think maybe they didn't want me here ... but I know that can't be true. They allowed Ohio in. (Just kidding, Ohio! It was a joke.)
SC or, sadly I guess now, LC

Hey SC, they let me in because I had "3 referrals" on my "profile" rap sheet. I had more than anyone else! I guess that's a good thing. Maybe not. Maybe it's a bad thing. :D

Ohio

07-14-2008, 12:06 PM

YP0534

07-14-2008, 12:38 PM

Ain't that the truth! Remember all the talk about "the pipeline?"

Real story: I remember back in the mid-90's, one sister (not married) telling another sister (who had a bunch of kids) about the pipeline of Gene Gruhler -- from birth culminating in the FTTA. The mother got "freaked" and never came back again.

I think maybe we were sort of discussing this over on the other thread about alienation of natural affection. I just can't understand it.

That mother was right to be freaked out.

Freaks me out and I'm a brother with no children.

brrrr

TLFisher

07-14-2008, 02:20 PM

Terry,

I can't recall Nigel's exact utterance, but I do believe he was touching on one of the crucial matters being discussed these days in the GLAs: how do we fit into the general body of Christ? Of course, from our LC days we thought ourselves to be a special subset of the body, but when that evolved into exclusivism, sectarianism, arrogance, etc., it revealed something underlying this idea of being "special" that is very dangerous. John Myers talked about this as well in the Goshen conference.

SC or, sadly I guess now, LC

(Hm, this may not work at all.)

SpeakersCorner, that was the essence of my point. Being special as a self-percieved notion we're set apart from the rest of Christianity. There was always the lurking danger of exclusivism becoming a behavior. I'm sure we all have friends, family, and co-workers who are Christians not meeting in the local churches. What we were imparted with while recieving Witness Lee's ministry should never make us think we're better than this group or that group. Rather we should consider what we may fellowship on as a contribution.
The danger I see that exists some may not be consciously aware of. I've noticed behavior while meeting with the local churches and in my time since. Something along the lines of, so and so is a devout Christian even if the don't meet with the Church in _______. Other points of exclucivism may be on the reality of the church or on the proper ground, etc.
I'm sure there are many groups I've never met with who may consider themselves having a special niche in Christianity. Key is, will ones drop their concepts and doctrines just to meet and fellowship through the Bible?

Terry Fisher

SpeakersCorner

07-14-2008, 09:44 PM

Real story: I remember back in the mid-90's, one sister (not married) telling another sister (who had a bunch of kids) about the pipeline of Gene Gruhler -- from birth culminating in the FTTA. The mother got "freaked" and never came back again.

Ohio,

Gee, I missed the "pipeline." Sounds horrid.

I do recall getting Gruhler's lesson books/tapes. And I recall hearing a tape on child rearing from John Smith, someone I know only through that tape. I didn't like either. I've never been a big fan of people telling me how to raise my kids, especially from self-appointed gurus.

SC

Ohio

07-16-2008, 04:05 PM

Ohio,

Gee, I missed the "pipeline." Sounds horrid.

I do recall getting Gruhler's lesson books/tapes. And I recall hearing a tape on child rearing from John Smith, someone I know only through that tape. I didn't like either. I've never been a big fan of people telling me how to raise my kids, especially from self-appointed gurus.

The sister who talked about the "pipeline" was visiting us from the NorthWest. She was so excited about it, and just had to tell all the mothers. This "pipeline" was sold to the saints as the final solution to stop the exodus of young people from the LC's.

One more failed promise / program out of LSM.

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-16-2008, 06:35 PM

Mass produce Witness Lee thus the term: Witness Lee Duplication Center!

Prayerful

07-21-2008, 10:50 AM

Does anyone know when and where this new hymnal will be available?

Testing123

07-21-2008, 02:34 PM

countmeworthy

07-21-2008, 07:09 PM

Regarding Columbus, Ohio.........they gonna have to do some serious 'truthizing & churchizing' :D there 'cause Rod Parsley & his World Harvest church have a big chunk of the 'ground' in Columbus, Ohio. :D

Sorrrrrrrry. I couldn't resist. :D

For those who don't know...Rod Parsley is one of many TV Evangelists & has a huge following. I don't personally follow his ministry. There are SOME good things about it but overall, it's not my cup of Tee.

Only by Grace

07-21-2008, 08:25 PM

GTCA (Gospelize, Truthize, and Churchize America) has officially been launched! Applications forms are now available for "migration" Champaign, IL and Columbus, OH!

http://gtca.us/

http://www.churchinChampaign.org/Home.html

http://www.churchincolumbus.org/gtca/

Gospelizing, Truthizing and Churchizing America (GTCA) is a present move of the Lord in His recovery to practically carry out the burden and responsibility to preach the gospel of the kingdom, to teach the high peak truths, and to establish local churches in every city, town and village in America.

Gosh, I thought the Urbana, Illinois campus...the longtime (until they could no longer accommodate 20,000 attendees) home of the Urbana! student mission conference sponsored by Intervaristy Christian Fellowship every three years (see www.urbana.org) was already gospelized, truthized, churchized and even missionized!

Advice to the PR campaign folks who wrote this stuff...if you don't want to sound...well, minimally silly and maximumly scary...just say you want to plant some of your brand of churches next to the hundreds of other churches in the area...rather than announcing that you're God's gift to Urbana...It seems that God has already mightily blessed this campus and tremendously gifted this area with LOTS of Christians eager to preach the gospel all around the world! Praise Him for that and thank God for Urbana and the intervarsity ministry that already has such a presence on campus!

Shawn

07-22-2008, 09:13 AM

http://www.churchincolumbus.org/gtca/

I checked out the Church in Columbus site; No verses, only quotes from the ministry... how sad.:(

Shawn

Old Rasputin

07-22-2008, 03:49 PM

finallyprettyokay

07-22-2008, 04:40 PM

From the first link:

Paying a Price to Gain the Typical Americans
Published by raquel at 9:57 am under Ministry

After the recovery spreads to a certain nation, it should reach the typical local people. America was built up by the Caucasians. The recovery in the United States should reach the Caucasian people. If we cannot do this or we would not do this, we will suffer a big deficiency. God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)….Recently, I had a thought deep within me that the reason we have gained so few Caucasians in recent years might be because in our meetings we have a high percentage of people of other races. We do not practice the separation of the races as some denominations do. Nevertheless, because this is the United States, the majority of the saints in the churches in this country should be Caucasian. The other races should be a minority. If the percentage of those of other races in the meetings is too high, it will be difficult for the Caucasian people to be attracted to the recovery. Therefore, we must find a way to get into the Caucasian community. We are healthy in our teaching, but we are not healthy in our practice. We must reconsider our situation. I would like to pay some price to gain the Caucasian people. All the Caucasian brothers and sisters need to be burdened and consider so that they may be enabled by the Lord to find a way (Fellowship Concerning the Urgent Need of the Vital Groups, pp. 3-4).

This is just insane. Insane.

Old Rasputin

07-22-2008, 05:33 PM

I think the problem isn't the Chinese faces; it's the Chinese culture. These guys don't like your average, typical, white (or black) Americans, and it shows.

Either way, wanting more white faces in your meetings is just spiritual affirmative action. Reaching out to your neighbors in love is more effective.

YP0534

07-22-2008, 05:39 PM

FPO:

In case you didn't get it, this is a direct quote from Lee, as cited.

Here's the gem that immediately precedes it...

RECONSIDERING OUR WAY
We need to take Haggai's word and consider our ways (Hag. 1:5, 7). We—especially the elders and the co-workers—need to reconsider our church life and our work. We need to consider what has been the result of our living day by day. We cannot allow ourselves to continue in our present way.

In the new localities in Southern California, the rate of increase was high initially. However, I found out that when the number attending the meetings in a locality reached one hundred, the rate of increase slowed considerably because the brothers there did not know how to go on. In the beginning they practiced the group meetings spontaneously, because the number was small. But gradually they grew out of the practice of the groups into the practice of having big meetings. The increase in those localities was reduced because they had only the big meetings without the proper group meetings.

I have given a number of messages presenting the principles and the detailed instructions on the practice of the group meetings, but until now I have not given you the steps on how to form the groups. I have been expecting day after day, month after month, and year after year for seven and a half years to see some of you rise up to do something organically to form the groups. However, I have not seen the result that I had hoped to see. Therefore, I feel burdened that I myself need to do something.

Witness Lee, Fellowship Concerning the Urgent Need of the Vital Groups

This has apparently been the substance of the teaching since around 1991.

Difficult to do, but this has left me speechless...

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-22-2008, 06:22 PM

The reason the LCS doesn't have much increase especially in southern California is simple: most of their increase comes from Christians and Christians in southern California and esp leaders are well aware of the lawsuits and crazy behavior of Lee and his followers against them in calling them the whore, mocking their teachers, etc. Their arrogance is well known.

And I would also suggest that Christians in southern California tend to have their antenna up about cultic behavior. The one publication, one minister of the age thing...uh...I don't thing so!

Shawn

07-22-2008, 09:35 PM

Thanks for the link, Shawn. The application is bizarre. Have they changed that much or have I? A qualification for spreading the gospel is being raised in the church life? Man, they aren't even hiding it anymore.

I'll pass your appreciation on to Only By Grace, who was the source of my link!

Whoops! OBGreceived it from Testing123, sorry!

Blessings to you,

Shawn

Guest1

07-26-2008, 11:14 AM

I was taken with Vern Yoder's speaking in message five. Much of what our brother touched on was the matter of Gifts and Functioning. The base of Vern's speaking was from Ephesians 4. Perception of many see gifts as being obvious such as teaching, speaking, evangelizing, etc. True, if you're not good at public speaking or shy away from it, you're gift is probably not an evangel.
Well, I believe each of us have gifts. Just in different ways and in different measure. I consider the small group I meet with. One brother is a gifted teacher, another is a shepherd, another in contacting people, and another in receiving. Each has something to contribute that another may be deficient in.
Vern's speaking on functioning blew my concepts. For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening. I'll need to go back and listen to message five again before saying anything further on the matter of functioning.

Terry

Hi .. I am a newbie here and have a lot to learn and catch up on... I remember Vern Yoder as a dear brother .. who left the 'church' ... ok I just wanted to say that I hear alot of local church 'lingo' in this thread.. what is Vern Yoder now.. ?? is Nigel the Nigel also from the church in Chicago.. sorry not trying to be disrespectful or anything.. just trying to understand whats going on .. what is GLA .. thanks for your patience with me..

God's Blessings...

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-26-2008, 01:17 PM

Recently a major division occurred and is still unfolding in the LSC [local church system] between the GLA [Great Lakes area] and more or less the rest - complete with lawsuits over meeting hall properties. Some of the leaders in the GLA are Titus Chu, Nigel Tomes, John Myer, etc. Titus Chu and his coworkers have been "quarantined" by the LSM crowd. They are considered lepers i.e. untouchables. Titus Chu was denounced publicly at a leaders conference in Whistler, BC. To my knowledge Vern Yoder still works with Chu, Tomes, etc. so presumably he's a leper too!

Guest1

07-26-2008, 06:24 PM

wow.. so they are still into the local church.. I mean who cares what the LSM crowd thinks.. ?? I think it would be a blessing to be considered a leper by any religious cult.. Lord Jesus have mercy on us.. we love you Lord and we give you all the Glory.. Praise God.. thank you so much for answering my questions.. your post helped greatly ... so we are praying that they will be rescued from this horrible situation.. plucked out of that horrible system and freed in Christ Jesus..Amen

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-26-2008, 08:42 PM

Who cares indeed! Not me.

BTW they also have a group of guys they call the Blended Brothers complete with a cheer leading slogan: "Nee, Lee and Brothers We!" No joke. And they take this crazy stuff seriously. Personally I can't help laughing everything time I think about it. Anyway Chu, Tomes, Yoder, etc are not part of this BB group. They have become the big bad enemy.

One of Chu's biggest crimes against the machine was to publish his own books. But the first crime on their rap sheet as published by the LSM is they will not entertain the "one minister of the age" fantasy which the the Brothers We wholeheartedly embrace. It has apparently escaped Brothers We attention that the one minister of the age is dead and his replacement by their own admission is not one minister but many i.e. themselves. Go figure.

A professional stand up comedian couldn't write this stuff!

Guest1

07-26-2008, 09:07 PM

Seriously and although hilarious.. kinda SCARY..actually really antichrist "one minister of the age" especially for those trapped inside ... I just cannot imagine that the leading brother or elder of the church in chicago would go along with this.. he was always a maverick and followed the Lord.. where were you..djohnson and how long were you in... (James Retzke(sp) church in chicago)

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-26-2008, 09:17 PM

I am only an observer. My connection with the LCS is through friendships. Some who know quite a bit about the things behind the scenes that go on there.

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-26-2008, 09:21 PM

btw Jim Reetzke was actually publishing Chu's books until he jumped on the LSM let's-quarantine-Titus bandwagon. Suddenly he stopped publishing. As I understand it Bill Barker and Chu had a falling out.

Guest1

07-26-2008, 11:17 PM

weird.. I am so glad I am not in that scene.. thank you Lord..
thanks again talk to you later
God's Blessings

Suannehill

07-29-2008, 01:59 PM

Well, I hold in my hands a rather slick and nicely done flyer.

Labor Day Weekend

August 30, 9:30 AM-September 1 12:30 PM

Titus Chu
Nigel Tomes
John Meyer
Vern Yoder
Paul Neider

Hilton Doubletree Hotel
Columbus, Ohio

TLFisher

07-29-2008, 08:07 PM

I hope there will be cd's of the conference messages available in days or weeks following the Labor Day conference. Please update when information is available.

Terry

Suannehill

07-30-2008, 03:30 AM

I have no doubt there will be CDs available.
John Meyer has them abundantly right now.
Sue

Guest1

08-02-2008, 04:01 PM

have you ever gone online or called any of the United States lc's .. they all have the same message and posts.. all generic..all the numbers that i called.. this was awhile back .. no one ever answers the phone.. weird

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-07-2008, 10:45 PM

Is this roster of speakers a reflection that they are all in agreement with Tomes and Meyers assessment of Witness Lee's erroneous teachings and practices?

Ohio

08-08-2008, 05:38 AM

Is this roster of speakers a reflection that they are all in agreement with Tomes and Meyers assessment of Witness Lee's erroneous teachings and practices?

Meyers is Myer. :rollingeyes2:

Years ago it was TC on the forefront of "change," using every opportunity to do a little "blended bashing," and for the most part deservedly so. As far as actual change, and his impact upon the saints, I do believe John Myer is ahead of every one else. As brilliant and as educated as Nigel is, it is extremely rare to find a brother with the genius of Myer, one who barely made it thru high school by his own admission. He is also the most gifted speaker. Paul Neider is a long time Cleveland elder -- from Mansfield no less -- who always tried to put people ahead of programs. He is the only one not full-time. For the most part, Yoder follows TC, and is the "surprise" of the group. Where's Norm?

The attitudes of all these brothers towards the blendeds is similar, having witnessed first hand the divisions and lawsuits. It is hard to say how far each one goes in his assessment that WL was the source of all "blended behaviour." This is a more touchy subject, which some admit in private, but becomes controversial in discussions. For years the saints got "conditioned" with the thought that it was TC was more spiritual and more closely following WL as the "true successor."

Now ... going a step further, and realizing that TC and WL and the blendeds are in many ways all the same ... may never happen.

YP0534

08-08-2008, 05:50 AM

Now ... going a step further, and realizing that TC and WL and the blendeds are in many ways all the same ... may never happen.

:eek:

I think we can rest assured that it will most definitely happen at some point...

Ohio

08-08-2008, 06:44 AM

I think we can rest assured that it will most definitely happen at some point...

When you go to any of the LSM websites or any of their "franchise" church websites, you immediately notice that "it's all about WL and his teachings."

When you go to the church in Cleveland website,
http://www.jesusloversincleveland.org/English/framesindex.htm
you immediately notice that "it's all about TC and his teachings."

However ... when you go to the Church in Columbus website, http://www.colsca.org you see lots of people, excitement, creativity, personality, Jesus expressed thru His people, and not just thru one man, rather a congregation of healthy believers.

Their campus group, Oasis Christian Community, has a website http://www.oasisosu.com/
that even plays the OSU school song, how cool is that.

Brutus Buckeye is thrilled and clapping. :hurray:

Suannehill

08-13-2008, 10:57 AM

I just got a call that beloved leading one Dwight Rader has passed on this morning.
Sue

Suannehill

08-16-2008, 06:09 PM

Upon arriving home from Dwight's funeral I find myself with mixed emotions...
The brothers who shared were honest and loving in their testimonies...however...
His wife had requested that due to the large number of people that only seven people speak and she named the seven. This was announced as such and those seven did a touching tribute to our brother...however...
As soon as the final prayer was said...one of the new elders from the LSM side stood to speak...my husband and I stood up and left.
Do the LSMers have no respect at all? It was made clear the families' wishes...yet here they go...they MUST have the last word!
Isn't it enough that they stole 40 years worth of labor from the man? Must they inject themselves into his funeral too? It was the most blatant disrespect I've ever seen at a funeral.
Pardon me, but I am still so bothered within.
This was how every Lord's Table was ruined...the LSMers could not contain themselves!!!!
Dwight built meeting halls all over the Midwest, gave himself to repair and remodel wherever needed. I can't begin to tell you how hard he labored spiritually and physically. He designed and built the Mansfield Meeting Place that is now occupied by LSMers. There is no shame or conscience on their part. The building he built from scratch cannot be used for his funeral dinner.

Sue

SpeakersCorner

08-16-2008, 06:32 PM

I don't know how to stand with you, sister, but your word touched me and I wanted to let you know. I did not know brother Dwight personally (I had met him) but have heard much of his faithfulness.

Peace to you and to all those aching from the loss of this brother.

SC

Suannehill

08-16-2008, 07:12 PM

Thank you.
My husband and I just keep looking at each other and saying how bothered we still are by this. It will go away, but I think of his wife and how betrayed she must feel by ALL of this. We remember her and the rest of his family before the Lord.
Sue

countmeworthy

08-16-2008, 07:23 PM

I didn't know this man of God who passed away...never heard of him but how heartwrenching it must be for the family..for you & your husband Suanne & those who truly knew him and loved him to be disrespected by the LSM.

All will stand before the Throne......

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-16-2008, 09:22 PM

The LCS does not respect families and therefore they do not respect the boundaries that family should represent.

A funeral is a very sensitive time for families. The memories of it will last a lifetime. It will be replayed over and over in their minds bringing tears to their eyes and provoking all sorts of emotional responses. For this man/woman to cross the boundary set by the family and open their big mouth is not only disrespectful it is very rude and callous.

kisstheson

08-17-2008, 10:18 AM

This bothers me as well, dear sister Suanne. There is a time and a place for "high-peak" speaking, but there is also a time and a place to be quiet and express some normal, compassionate, humanity.

Why couldn't this brother simply trust the Spirit to anoint the speaking of the seven others? Why did he have to act so disrespectfully by forcing his speaking upon the grieving ones? Why didn't one of the older elders from the LSM side ask this brother to sit down? This new elder should have remained quiet during the funeral, as per the family's own wishes, and simply shared his condolences one-on-one with the grieving ones at the appropriate time before or after the funeral. This surely would have been a much better expression of Christ.

Norm

08-17-2008, 11:35 AM

All the other brothers from the LSM side were too busy with a regional brothers' meeting being held in Mansfield. You know, the ministry comes first.

Suannehill

08-17-2008, 11:49 AM

Norm, since we did not stay to hear the other one's words...were we the only ones taken aback by this?
Sue

Ohio

08-18-2008, 05:55 AM

Dwight built meeting halls all over the Midwest, gave himself to repair and remodel wherever needed. I can't begin to tell you how hard he labored spiritually and physically. He designed and built the Mansfield Meeting Place that is now occupied by LSMers. There is no shame or conscience on their part. The building he built from scratch cannot be used for his funeral dinner.

Sue
Sue is right about Brother Dwight overseeing the construction of many greater Ohio meeting halls. Hence, he was quite a blessing. It's surely not easy to coordinate church volunteers, provide them with tools, and hope they don't hurt themselves ... and produce attractive and useful halls for the minimalist of costs. He and a few others would spend all day doing the challenging work and then prepare for the evening and weekend shifts when the "army" would show up. Often times that is more stressful than doing the work yourself! My father was a general contractor, and there was no way he would tolerate such "egregious work conditions." Dwight would literally spend months working out of town for other churches.

Many brothers learned much from working with brother Dwight. He could be tough at times, but he had a great sense of humor, and you knew ... eventually ... that he loved you. He was focused on the task at hand, but he did not sacrifice people for the program. Many times we Christians "oow and aah" over great ministers whom we have never even shaken hands with. I prefer the ministers who can work with their hands, rub shoulders, and really get to know. Dwight was such a person.

What a painful ordeal for his widow and family and friends to be excluded from the very church hall that Dwight himself built. When Dwight was a younger man, there is no way that LSM and her local operatives could have accomplished what they did.

Norm

08-18-2008, 10:15 AM

Sue,

Many also had the same feelings about the last testimony as you did.

Norm

Prayerful

08-18-2008, 12:54 PM

It seems that spirituality is not the only thing lacking in the LSM leaders. Basic humanity is also in short supply.

YP0534

08-18-2008, 01:23 PM

Basic humanity needs to be replaced by uplifted humanity.
Therefore, being inhuman is proof that you aren't relying upon your own humanity.
All the damage done while waiting for uplifted humanity to kick in is just the cost of doing spiritual warfare with the enemy.

Suannehill

08-18-2008, 03:09 PM

...

What a painful ordeal for his widow and family and friends to be excluded from the very church hall that Dwight himself built. When Dwight was a younger man, there is no way that LSM and her local operatives could have accomplished what they did.

UMMM yep!
IF anyone had dared to square off with Dwight and disrupt the Lord's Table like these LSM ones did...I believe he would have physically put them off of the property regardless of how many there were and how big they were. A Christian brother once tried to be dishonest with Dwight in a business dealing and Dwight said to him..."I'm going to punch you in the nose... and THEN plead the blood!!!!"
Dwight laughed and said it was not necessary to punch him the nose after that!
Sue

TLFisher

08-20-2008, 11:57 PM

Sue is right about Brother Dwight overseeing the construction of many greater Ohio meeting halls. Hence, he was quite a blessing. It's surely not easy to coordinate church volunteers, provide them with tools, and hope they don't hurt themselves ... and produce attractive and useful halls for the minimalist of costs. He and a few others would spend all day doing the challenging work and then prepare for the evening and weekend shifts when the "army" would show up. Often times that is more stressful than doing the work yourself! My father was a general contractor, and there was no way he would tolerate such "egregious work conditions." Dwight would literally spend months working out of town for other churches.

Many brothers learned much from working with brother Dwight. He could be tough at times, but he had a great sense of humor, and you knew ... eventually ... that he loved you. He was focused on the task at hand, but he did not sacrifice people for the program. Many times we Christians "oow and aah" over great ministers whom we have never even shaken hands with. I prefer the ministers who can work with their hands, rub shoulders, and really get to know. Dwight was such a person.

Ohio, I had never heard of brother Dwight. Based on the posts, he was quite a brother, very loved, and dearly missed.

Terry

Toledo

08-27-2008, 04:08 PM

I wasn't able to attend the funeral. Both my wife and I had planned to be there, but I had nearly three dozen family members in town from Ohio, Texas and Michigan. We could not get away.

I got to work with Dwight on four different meeting halls. There were lessons about the practical expression of the church I learned from working with him that I couldn't have gotten from a thousand messages.

It is God's mercy that he didn't have to see what so many of the local churches have become.

Toledo

08-28-2008, 09:21 PM

I hope this post does not stir up a controversy; that is not my intention. I'm sorry if this is deemed "inappropriate", but I've been asked to share a bit more about my experience with Dwight Rader. All my experiences with him were frankly positive.

Suffice to say that my labor with Dwight was absolutely practical: we built meeting halls together. He did the general oversight and much of the carpentry; I did much of the sweeping.

I am no carpenter (I can tell which end of a hammer to hold, if I look at it for a minute), but I used to take several weeks off to "stand with" with Dwight in his work. I stood with him for the halls in Cleveland (twice), Willoughby (twice), Columbus, and Mansfield.

I saw him put brothers together in the most practical ways ("If you want to pray-read, go home! We're here to work"). I watched his patience in dealing with brothers who were incompetent (like me) or opinionated or both. I could see his personal concern for the safety of the saints, and for the careful completion of the tasks at hand.

Dwight had a harsh voice but a tender heart. He could take charge on the work site, then sit and weep before the Lord all through a church meeting. He caused those who knew him to love the Lord in a genuine and practical way. Dwight made me realize the churches are a whole lot more about saints cooperating together and loving one another, and a whole lot less about doctrines and teachings.

Ohio

08-29-2008, 05:09 AM

I hope this post does not stir up a controversy; that is not my intention.

Toledo, welcome to the forum!

How can your post "stir up controversy?"

This thread is perhaps the only peaceful thread we ever had. :)

Toledo

08-29-2008, 05:58 AM

Toledo, welcome to the forum!

Thanky kindly, sir! I've been lurking here and over on the Berean site for a while.

How can your post "stir up controversy?"

Frankly, it would seem that positive posts with regard to the church life are often not well received here. My experience with Dwight was neither idolatrous, demonic, nor addicting. So I wasn't sure it would fit in.

This thread is perhaps the only peaceful thread we ever had. :)

Indeed, perhaps that's what encouraged me to write. I missed the funeral and I just wanted to say something about Dwight. He was a dear man and I'm glad his suffering is over. My Dad had Alzheimers, too, so I know how difficult that can be for everyone concerned.

Ohio

08-29-2008, 06:31 AM

Frankly, it would seem that positive posts with regard to the church life are often not well received here. My experience with Dwight was neither idolatrous, demonic, nor addicting. So I wasn't sure it would fit in.

Never mind that little fight we're having in the "back room" called "LCS factor." These are all wonderful folks here. Even those of us "sportin' a 'tude" are really nice guys. We just have to work out a few "details" in our presentation. :)

Hope

08-29-2008, 06:33 AM

Hello Toledo,

I really like your theme verse. It is one of mine also. The Lord gave it to me shortly after the turmoil of the mid, late 80's. I have read it hundreds of times. Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance.

I appreciated your posts regarding Brother Dwight Rader.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Ohio

08-30-2008, 07:24 AM

Thanky kindly, sir! I've been lurking here and over on the Berean site for a while.

Frankly, it would seem that positive posts with regard to the church life are often not well received here. My experience with Dwight was neither idolatrous, demonic, nor addicting. So I wasn't sure it would fit in.

You have been reading your forums!

Ahhh ... Toledo, no "behind the scenes cesspool of politics" with brother Dwight?

I agree with you there. :)

Norm

09-03-2008, 01:11 PM

The non-LSM side does not want to see any of the saints suffer any further. It has taken a large toll on both sides, both have lost members. It would now go to court and be frontline news. The non-LSM side feel it should not be settled in the courts.

The non-LSM have proposed giving the LSM-view side everthing and bring the whole mess to a conclusion.

The final wording is being worked out.

It is better to be wronged.

Norm

djohnson(XLCmember)

09-03-2008, 02:59 PM

Yup! Never wrestle with a tar baby. It's waste of time, money and energy.

Suannehill

09-03-2008, 04:27 PM

Exactly my desire from the begining.
It's a little late now.
Damage is done.
Sue

kisstheson

09-04-2008, 12:09 AM

Dear brother Norm,

I say a strong "Amen!" to the decision that the non-LSM side has reached. Yes, it is much better to be wronged. What a shining testimony you all now have! Surely the Lord will provide a much better meeting facility for those meeting on the non-LSM side.

You appear to be very well read, so I assume you are familiar with the testimony of Robert Chapman, "The Apostle of Love", one of the Open Brethren. He and those with him willingly gave up a meeting place on two separate occasions, and both times the Lord provided something much better!

Lawsuits against fellow believers are a thing that we need to leave "far, far, behind us". Thank you for sparing our dear Lord Jesus Christ the shame of another lawsuit amongst His people.

Toledo

09-04-2008, 10:19 AM

It is better to be wronged.

Nakedness, public humiliation, shame, bitterness, injustice...

Exo 15:23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
Exo 15:24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
Exo 15:25 And he cried unto Jehovah; And Jehovah showed him a tree, and he cast it into the waters, and the waters were made sweet.

AndPeter

09-04-2008, 01:03 PM

Here is a brief report on the Columbus Labor day weekend conference.

There was lots of refreshing ministry from Titus Chu on Lessons from the Life of Joshua, learning then leading the Children of Israel into the good land. There were also break-out sessions from John Myer, Nigel Tomes, Vern Yoder & Paul Neider on various topics as well as a separate stream for the chinese speaking saints.

Lots could be said. I think, however, that one good indicator is that the saints are writing & singing new songs again. After years of un-singable and forgetable LSM-slogans set to music, the creative spark has come back to the GLA saints. It's like the "good old days" when brothers & sisters wrote songs by the dozens based on their experience of Christ & the church-life. Some songs were good for one session & passed into oblivion; others lasted for decades as a source of joy & encouragement. Well in the GLA, those days are back! And back with a bang! A good 30 minutes was spent at the start of every session, led by different groups of saints--guitars (yes, some electric) , drums, piano, violins, cello etc etc. There was also an evening "Songfest" for saints to present their new & old compositions to those present. Some of the compositions presented show that the saints are having deep experiences with their Lord. [These sessions were video taped. I hope some of these songs can be posted on U-Tube].

Maybe other participants can add more to this thread.

Steve

Toledo

09-05-2008, 12:54 PM

I think, however, that one good indicator is that the saints are writing & singing new songs again.
...
It's like the "good old days" when brothers & sisters wrote songs by the dozens based on their experience of Christ & the church-life. Some songs were good for one session & passed into oblivion; others lasted for decades as a source of joy & encouragement.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth"

I have long thought the music that comes from saints enjoying God's life together is a way of tracing the move of the Spirit. The songs from Luther, and the Wesleys, and the brethren, etc. seemed to sweeten the operation of His hand.

A good 30 minutes was spent at the start of every session, led by different groups of saints--guitars (yes, some electric) , drums, piano, violins, cello etc etc.

You guys are gonna burn in hell. You're only allowed to use a piano to accompany singing (I'm sure that's in the bible somewhere...).

SpeakersCorner

09-05-2008, 02:28 PM

I have long believed music is a huge, corporate voice which both leads and follows every move of the Spirit and of the spirit (meaning, in secular ways as well). Music has been a big dividing issue in the LSM schism against the GLA, maybe even bigger than the One Pub stuff.

Up to this point, the GLA has been re-connecting with the Christian body in general via music. The kids are learning from Hillsong and others and are moving forward. There is still a lot of room for development in this area and I expect to see it.

I hope to have some links available soon for some of the new music that's coming out of the GLA. We're working on it.

SC

Ohio

09-05-2008, 04:29 PM

You guys are gonna burn in hell. You're only allowed to use a piano to accompany singing (I'm sure that's in the bible somewhere...).

J. N. Darby and the reclusives (oops ... I mean the exclusives) felt that even the piano was "worldly" ... calling it a "wooden brother."

And, by the way Toledo, you don't "burn in hell" for breaking the rules, you only get quarantined -- "hell on earth."

Suannehill

09-06-2008, 06:48 AM

J. N. Darby and the reclusives (oops ... I mean the exclusives) felt that even the piano was "worldly" ... calling it a "wooden brother."

And, by the way Toledo, you don't "burn in hell" for breaking the rules, you only get quarantined -- "hell on earth."

The GLA spent many years limited to the piano.

Shawn

09-06-2008, 06:55 AM

Hi All,

I am very thankful that I can be "recovered" in loving and worshiping the Lord in music, I had the great enjoyment of playing with the Pittsburgh group on Saturday night with our African brothers.

One thing, I was not able to attend the "Ephesians moment" fellowship on Saturday, could any who attended fill in the blanks for me?

Thanks,

Shawn

AndPeter

09-06-2008, 02:23 PM

Hi All,

One thing, I was not able to attend the "Ephesians moment" fellowship on Saturday, could any who attended fill in the blanks for me?

Shawn

Nigel was kind enough to pass along some of his notes to me:

"In the Epistle to the Ephesians we have a vivid account of the place in the early Church of two sharply contrasting Christian lifestyles--[Jewish believers & Gentile Christians]... Both ways of life were converted lifestyles; but neither was complete in itself. Each needed the other, for both were building blocks in the New Temple, both were functioning organs in the Body of which Christ was head. Only as they came together could the Temple be built, the Body function, the full stature of Christ be realized."

"When Ephesians was written, there were only two significant cultures, and thus two converted lifestyles, to take note of. Not so long after the letter was written, one of those, the original Jewish, dropped out of sight. But now the Ephesian moment has returned.

But there are no longer two, but many cultures into which Christ has come by faith. The different converted lifestyles belong together; they are necessary building blocks in the New Temple designed for God’s worship. They are all functioning organs in the Body of which Christ is the head....[This] is...how our Lord’s prayer [in John 17] that all his disciples may be one can be realized in a Body composed of African and Indian and Chinese and Korean and Hispanic and Caribbean and European and North American Christians."
[Andrew F. Walls, THE GREAT COMMISSION 1910-2010]

ps8602

09-06-2008, 08:22 PM

"Nigel was kind enough to pass along some of his notes to me: ...."

I am hoping Nigel has the time to write out the full context of the session "Ephesians moment" fellowship from Saturday, and post it on one of the web pages so we can all have the benefit of the fellowship.

Dennis

Noah Body

09-07-2008, 08:00 PM

Didn't participate in the event but sure would like to hear the content.
Any chance the messages will be released as mp3's somewhere on the web?
THX

Ohio

09-09-2008, 06:51 AM

The GLA spent many years limited to the piano.

And acoustic guitars ... yes?

Shawn

09-09-2008, 10:50 AM

Thanks AndPeter, for the response, I am thankful for Nigels fellowship, as it touched something in my heart that I experienced from this past weekend in Columbus.

I find reflection can be helpful, but can become a paraylizing condition, if ones gaze remains on the things that immediately surround him. I spoke with many brothers whom I had limited contact in years past and from that, felt new chapters were opening to me, in whatever ministry I may give myself to; In Him.

Another new experience was going to a conference to hear more than just something "new," but to hear a word that we knew from old, yet has become new. To me this was the first chapter of Joshua, filled with the encouragement of God to be bold, go forward and posess all the land that lies before you. I felt the years I had spent in the church have prepared me for this day and today I am ready for my "moment!"

Praise Him, all His children!

Blessings to all,

Shawn

Suannehill

09-09-2008, 04:39 PM

And acoustic guitars ... yes?
Worse.
For a period of years, there were no instruments permitted except for the piano. Any other instrument represented rebellion.

Ohio

09-09-2008, 05:08 PM

Worse.
For a period of years, there were no instruments permitted except for the piano. Any other instrument represented rebellion.

I guess guitars were only banned on Sunday morning, because brothers played them every other day of the week.

Norm

09-19-2008, 07:09 PM

Ohio

09-19-2008, 07:30 PM

Brother Dan Rodgers went to be with the Lord late this afternoon. He suffered a major heart attack last night.

He had been quite ill for the last two years.

Remember his wife and family in your prayers.

Norm

So sad to hear this. I worked with Dan years ago. He came to his first church meeting in Cleveland to "save me from error," and then we both together were filled in spirit. He gave me the word, and I gave him the spirit. He was a genuine Baptist, only steeped in doctrine, yet never tasting the Lord. Then ... Oh the joy on his face. Dan would grin from ear to ear.

I loved Dan. We spent long hours together playing chess, talking about our Savior, and praying for his wife. I never did win a game of chess, but that didn't matter, because I loved every visit to Dan's house. Dan was the second Christian to befriend me as a new believer. He would test all things with the scripture, which was a great help to me. Dan's joyful laugh was always so contagious. I would start laughing just because he was.

Lord, do care for his wife and children.

Toledo

09-19-2008, 09:43 PM

Years ago my wife and I used to have dinner with Dan and Rita every Thursday night. Then we'd read a chapter out of II Corinthians together (and follow that with a movie...). Their kids were friends with our kids.

I will miss him.

Norm

09-21-2008, 02:06 PM

In memory of our brother

Daniel O. Rodgers
(September 24, 1947—September 19, 2008)

In his young and tender years
Dan found Christ his Savior dear;
But, as he grew his heart did stray
In that time of troubling days.

Dan began to seek for Christ
When a mortar crossed his life.
Like many in that foreign land,
He saw his life on sinking sand.

Dan returned, that Christ to find;
From that time he set his mind
To seek his Lord within the Word—
That truth became his mighty sword.

But that knowledge soon was dry;
Inwardly arose a cry.
His Lord was faithful once again,
His life in Spirit did begin.

He had weakness like us all,
Then upon his Lord he’d call.
His laugh from deep within would well,
As his joy again did swell.

But what shone above all else,
When in sickness or in health,
He preached the gospel to all souls—
For Christ a soldier true and bold.

by Norman J Minahan

Noah Body

09-21-2008, 07:23 PM

The columbus website says that the GTCA starts 8/9/08.
Well here it is 09/21/08 and the result is probably the same as always for their "moves" of God. Either nothing or very little. Anybody have anything to report on their "success"?

Norm

09-22-2008, 01:11 PM

A brother here in Detroit had a lunch recently with one of the leading ones in an LSM-view church. The one with the LSM-view was asked about the lawsuits which had taken place in the churches in this area and how he could justify them.

He fumbled around and feebly explained it as somewhat an action out of the flesh due to the fallen nature.

That is the most honest word I have heard out of their side to date.

Norm

09-22-2008, 01:13 PM

Ohio

09-22-2008, 08:07 PM

The four brothers from the non-LSM side have signed the final agreement turning all the assets over to the LSM-view side. Now they, the Lsm-view side, need to get their 40+ signatures to close this ugly chapter.

Norm

For those saints who apparently have "lost all," one of the mountains to climb is the gnawing feeling that the LSM side is somehow "right." Didn't they bring up all the accusations? Aren't they standing in oneness? Aren't they one with the ministry? Aren't they standing one with the Lord's servants WN and WL? Didn't the courts justify their actions? Didn't God answer their prayers? Don't they now have possession of the meeting hall? Don't they get the church housing? Don't they get to use the children's rooms? Don't the outsiders view them as being justified? Don't they appear to be approved by God?

Climbing this mountain can be the most blessed experience of their lifetime.

Suannehill

09-23-2008, 03:52 AM

For those saints who apparently have "lost all," one of the mountains to climb is the gnawing feeling that the LSM side is somehow "right." Didn't they bring up all the accusations? Aren't they standing in oneness? Aren't they one with the ministry? Aren't they standing one with the Lord's servants WN and WL? Didn't the courts justify their actions? Didn't God answer their prayers? Don't they now have possession of the meeting hall? Don't they get the church housing? Don't they get to use the children's rooms? Don't the outsiders view them as being justified? Don't they appear to be approved by God?

Climbing this mountain can be the most blessed experience of their lifetime.

I suppose if there had been a "fair" trial and LSM won, those would be issues for me. HOWEVER, there was not. They obviously love the building more than anything else. Therefore, all means are justified to hold on to it, and anyone destroyed in their path is just collateral damage. They used family members to carry out the "deeds" by whipping them into a frenzy. Now, there will be sweet victory for the hardened core of believers and confusion (spiritually) for those used by them. They really need prayer to be able to keep a sweet walk with the Lord.
Sue

Norm

09-23-2008, 06:02 AM

Ohio

09-23-2008, 06:14 AM

When several of the brothers from the non-LSM side went to sign the settlement the secretary at the law firm remarked that she had never seen more happy looking losers.

James 1:2 "Count it all joy..."

Yes indeed, losers but not "losers."

James word is applicable indeed, "Count it all joy, my brothers, whenever you fall into various trials, knowing that the proving of your faith works endurance. And let endurance have its perfect work that you may be complete and entire, lacking in nothing."

kisstheson

09-26-2008, 09:28 PM

Amen, dear brothers and sisters,

I cannot tell you how happy I am that the non-LSM GLA churches walked away from this lawsuit! One thing that really grieves my spirit is the fact that the more LSM claims to be speaking and propagating the “high-peak” truths, the more and more they are missing the plain meaning of so many basic verses in the NT. Paul’s clear word in 1 Cor. chapter six about lawsuits being a “shame” and a “defeat” is but one example.

It seems that “The Lord’s Recovery” has lost sight of a most basic fact: This present age is not the age where we “win”. This is not the age where we “rule and reign”. All that is part of the “blessed hope” we have for the Kingdom and for eternity - it is NOT our portion for this age. This is the age to follow our rejected and despised Jesus, the One Who is meek and lowly of heart, the One Who came not to be served but to serve and to lay down His life as a ransom for many. This is the age to suffer persecutions and insults, the age to be willing to be wronged and defrauded, the age to count it all joy whenever we fall into various trials, the age to gladly endure the plundering of our earthly goods, and the age to take up our cross and lay down our soul lives. This is NOT the age to seek a good name, it is NOT the age to desire to gain at the expense of our brothers and sisters in Christ, and it is most definitely NOT the age to be accumulating real estate.

“But if, while doing good and suffering, you endure, this is grace with God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered on your behalf, leaving you a model so that you may follow in His steps; Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth; Who being reviled did not revile in return; suffering He did not threaten but kept committing all to Him who judges righteously.” (1 Peter 2:20b-23)

Dear Lord, have mercy on us all.

kisstheson

09-26-2008, 09:42 PM

Dear ones,

Just to show how far the "Lord's Recovery" has "drifted from it's moorings", consider this verse in the hymn Watchman Nee wrote concerning the grapevine (Hymns #635). This will bring tears to your eyes. Where is such a spirit in evidence amongst the leadership in the LC today? Sad to say, but somewhere in the midst of the quarantines, the bad-mouthing of dear brothers who had been in our midst for decades, the lawsuits over meeting halls, the "attack-pack" booklets, etc., this spirit, which once prevailed in the LC, seems to have been completely lost.

"Not by gain our life is measured,
But by what we've lost 'tis scored;
'Tis not how much wine is drunken,
But how much has been outpoured.
For the strength of love e'er standeth
In the sacrifice we bear;
He who has the greatest suff'ring
Ever has the most to share."

Dear Lord, have mercy on us all.

TLFisher

12-29-2008, 09:50 PM

ABrotherInChrist

12-30-2008, 06:30 AM

I had recently read two letters (one from Titus Chu and one from Paul Wu) that contradict each other. Since 2003 I had given Titus Chu the benefit of the doubt throughout the recent turmoil considering I had never heard or read a divisive word from Titus Chu. One of the author's of these letters isn't being entirely accurate.

http://www.afaithfulword.org/reports/PaulWu.html

http://www.makingstraightthewayofthelord.com/TitusLetterToPaulWu.pdf

Terry

Just my thoughts.... I don't trust anything posted on A Faithful Word.org. That site is an LSM propaganda site, and they have often twisted and bent the truth to fit their agenda, especially with regards to Titus Chu recently. The Word they seem to be capable of being Faithful to is that of Witness Lee, not the Lord.

When they put in a quarantine against Titus Chu, they did so not following scriptural principles. They did not even try to fellowship with him (from any of the material available), they tried to dictate to him that he must follow their directions or else. Then they held a public lynching at Whistler which was a shameful display of their arrogance and pride.

If anyone is to be set aside for being divisive, the proof so far has shown that it is the Blended Brothers in California. They split the church yet again. Titus may or may not be innocent, but their mud-slinging session of 5 hours did nothing to show him as divisive. Independent, sure, but not divisive.

Anyways... If one of them isn't being completely honest, I know which I'd be looking at, but that's just me.

Ohio

12-30-2008, 06:58 AM

Just my thoughts.... I don't trust anything posted on A Faithful Word.org. That site is an LSM propaganda site, and they have often twisted and bent the truth to fit their agenda, especially with regards to Titus Chu recently. The Word they seem to be capable of being Faithful to is that of Witness Lee, not the Lord.

Terry, there is no way to get "to the bottom of things." LSM has lost much credibility because they twisted the events, added WL's so-called principles, and threw in a huge dose of fear to all their readers. Even some "independent" thinkers were affected by their 28 booklet "attack pack" which came out of the afaithfulword.com. Few people can maintain their integrity, when so much is on the table.

I have concluded that nearly no one "under the ministry" for some length of time is able to properly discern using the scriptures only. LSM lives and serves and quarantines brothers based upon the events surrounding John Ingalls 20 years ago. If you don't understand what happened then, you can't understand what happened in the GLA. In fact, I didn't really understand what happened until I read several accounts of the first Brethren division ... then it became easy to understand ... it was a struggle for power and control ... and all the so-called "spiritual principles" are nothing more than "smokescreen."

TLFisher

12-30-2008, 01:36 PM

Terry, there is no way to get "to the bottom of things." LSM has lost much credibility because they twisted the events, added WL's so-called principles, and threw in a huge dose of fear to all their readers. Even some "independent" thinkers were affected by their 28 booklet "attack pack" which came out of the afaithfulword.com. Few people can maintain their integrity, when so much is on the table.

In light of what happened in 89/90, I would hope there would be facts or a way to show DCP is bending what was actually said. Over the last 20 years I am biased towards what A Brother in Christ said. I don't think the brothers who run afaithword.org are liars, but I do think they spin what is said for their benefit. Whether the reader of afaithful.org believes the website is forthright, it's their prerogotive.
Please understand my point view. I have loved ones who are more apt to believe what afaithfulword.org says and what the blended co-workers say, than what I may think.
Since Paul Wu's letter was posted at afaithfulword.org, I gather he and Titus Chu were close co-workers at one time. I suspect either DCP edited the letter of Paul Wu's that was released for public consumption or there was an atmosphere of peer pressure that changed the brother's relationship? Otherwise, what are the facts surrounding the discrepancies?
At the end of the day, only these two brothers and the Lord know for certain.

Terry

Hope

01-07-2009, 01:29 PM

Cal

01-07-2009, 01:59 PM

Ohio,

I just heard a rumor. I heard that OSU lost their third straight BCS bowl game and it was to the hated Texas Longhorns. I hope this rumor is just that. Can you confirm?

By the way a year or so ago I heard an interview with the quarterback of the hated Texas Longhorns, Colt McCoy. Seems when he was in the 11th grade, his family was on vacation. They had rented a cottage on a lake. Around 11 P M they heard screams from across the lake. A woman was drowning. Colt leaped into the lake. Swam across the lake and rescued the woman. When the interviewer declared that Colt was quite the hero, he just dropped his head and replied in his West Texas drawl, au shucks, you would have done the same thing.

Hope, Don Rutledge

All true. I didn't have the heart to rub it in on old Ohio. But it appears the Red (and Silver) Sea parted on that last second pass to Quan Cosby. The Horns won their fifth straight bowl game, while the Bucks went down for the third time. Brutus fell into one of Bevo's hoofprints and won't be seen again till next year.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/01/06/alg_cosby-td.jpg

Actually, great game. OSU just ran out of time. (Anyway, I have to say that to keep the unity.)

juliep

01-07-2009, 02:20 PM

Yep, we won!!!! :) Hook 'em Horns! Sorry, couldnt resist. Good to read your writings on this website! I recently started reading some of the posts. Interesting discussions going on. Your name sure brought back memories of the LC in Dallas even though I was young at the time. I was so happy when I reached 18 years of age and was able to leave. My parents stayed for a few more years. Finally, they saw the light. A little late for me, but better late than never...
Meant to be replying to "Ohio Tragedy

Hope

01-07-2009, 02:47 PM

All true. I didn't have the heart to rub it in on old Ohio. But it appears the Red (and Silver) Sea parted on that last second pass to Quan Cosby. The Horns won their fifth straight bowl game, while the Bucks went down for the third time. Brutus fell into one of Bevo's hoofprints and won't be seen again till next year.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/01/06/alg_cosby-td.jpg

Actually, great game. OSU just ran out of time. (Anyway, I have to say that to keep the unity.)

Igzy,

You are such a nice person. Ohio needs all the understanding you can give him.

Back when I was a teen ager, Ohio, the state, thought they had the best football around, particularly on the high school level. So they started a series of all star games pitting the best high school players from Ohio against some good ole Texas boys. After several years of getting their heads handed to them they quit. Pennsylvania picked up the challenge and only lasted a few years.

Actually, the Ohio boys did real well in the recent game and should be proud. No one expected them to win.

Hope, Don Rutledge

Ohio

01-07-2009, 03:56 PM

Ohio,

I just heard a rumor. I heard that OSU lost their third straight BCS bowl game and it was to the hated Texas Longhorns. I hope this rumor is just that. Can you confirm?

Nasty rumor. Can't believe a thing you hear anymore. :rollingeyes2:

Hope

01-07-2009, 07:58 PM

Nasty rumor. Can't believe a thing you hear anymore. :rollingeyes2:

Thanks Ohio,

I know how untrustworthy those reports from Texas are.

Hope, Don Rutledge

Now wait a minute. Someone on the forum has accussed me of being a Texas University supporter. Hey you guys, I went to Baylor. Next to the Aggies there are no creatures lower than the UT supporters.

Norm

02-12-2009, 04:08 PM

This will be a final posting related to the lawsuit in Mansfield.

1. After the non-LSM side signed over all assets to the LSM-view side, the lawyers for the LSM-view side wanted to investigate if the non-LSM had placed any of the funds they offered to fight the lawsuit in an account using “the church in Mansfield” name. If so, they wanted those funds reimbursed and turned over to their clients. The non-LSM side lawyers told them to get lost (my wording). The non-LSM side had been smarter than that from the beginning.

2. When the LSM-view side tried to get all the signatures of their supposed members one wife refused to sign. She basically stated that she had never been a member and had been tricked into signing the original lawsuit. The judge had to waive her signature. He had to now know he had been duped by the LSM-view side. Just one refusing and speaking out shows they lied and cheated.

3. The number on the LSM-view side has greatly reduced in their meetings, at least by 50% if not 60% from the nuber on their original document filed in the court. A large percentage of their membership list was false. Only one of the five new trustees is regular in all the church functions.

4. The final settlement document does contain the signatures of Benson Phillips and Tim Knoppe, permanently linking them to this lawsuit. I wonder why Benson did not refuse to sign and then advise the LSM-view saints to back out of the whole matter.

Cal

02-13-2009, 08:17 AM

"Not by gain our life is measured,
But by what we've lost 'tis scored;
'Tis not how much wine is drunken,
But how much has been outpoured.
For the strength of love e'er standeth
In the sacrifice we bear;
He who has the greatest suff'ring
Ever has the most to share."

Dear KTS,

I've long felt this hymn (and Nee for that matter) was a little too masochistic (for lack of a better word) in his view, to an unhealthy extent. I think the emphasis should on giving and serving, not experiencing pain. I would reword it as follows. What do you think?

"Not by gain our life is measured,
But by what we've given 'tis scored;
'Tis not how much wine is drunken,
But how much has been outpoured.
For the strength of love e'er standeth
In the sacrifice we bear;
He who knows the greatest serving
Ever has the most to share."

djohnson(XLCmember)

02-13-2009, 11:54 AM

Norm like they said in Whistler: "We asked what would brother Lee do and we just followed it." They were good apprentices of their master.

SpeakersCorner

02-13-2009, 08:23 PM

"Not by gain our life is measured,
But by what we've given 'tis scored;
'Tis not how much wine is drunken,
But how much has been outpoured.
For the strength of love e'er standeth
In the sacrifice we bear;
He who knows the greatest serving
Ever has the most to share."

Igzy,

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this hymn. It is about suffering, not serving. I understand your protest ... there is a danger of a kind of asceticism teaching here. But the author is not looking forward with some kind of teaching on how to live the Christian life. He is looking backward at a life given, spent on the Lord with no outward reward or glory, and finding in that something so deep and meaningful that it almost cannot be uttered.

While I believe that we should be the most forward looking of people on the earth, there is an element to our walk that requires us to pause occasionally and look backward just as we do each time we take the Lord's table. When we do this, the tears remembered are golden.

SC

Suannehill

02-14-2009, 08:30 AM

Norm,
Thanks for posting the outcome.

We all know the truth about Mansfield...even those who lied.

Damage is done.

Sometimes, I do wonder though if they thought out ANY of the spiritual implications of what they were doing...

They cut off the vibrant ones and fully expected things to be the same...even better. Or did they believe it would be like "it was in the 60's?
From the little I see and hear it seems they thought it WOULD be like the living, refreshing 60's.
They have behaved arrogantly (at best) toward most folks here.
That is not a spiritual posture.

Then there's the verse about gaining the whole world...

We gave them all that they wanted, and have not molested them in any fashion.
These are just random thoughts.

My most intimate feelings are between me and the Lord.

So...thanks to all of those that have listened to me, prayed with and for us and offered advice.

There won't be much to post here now that we gave them exactly what they wanted.
Sue

countmeworthy

02-14-2009, 12:07 PM

Damage is done.

We gave them all that they wanted, and have not molested them in any fashion.
These are just random thoughts.

My most intimate feelings are between me and the Lord.

So...thanks to all of those that have listened to me, prayed with and for us and offered advice.
There won't be much to post here now that we gave them exactly what they wanted.

Sue,
Don't let your heart be troubled. We have a great High Priest in Jesus. And we are looking forward to living in the Holy City New Jerusalem whose Builder and Maker is GOD...where there is no pain or sorrow for Behold He makes all things new. It won't be long now either.

Keep your boarding pass on hand. Flight #888 will be departing shortly. ALL ABOARD !

Cal

02-16-2009, 07:32 AM

Igzy,

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this hymn. It is about suffering, not serving. I understand your protest ... there is a danger of a kind of asceticism teaching here. But the author is not looking forward with some kind of teaching on how to live the Christian life. He is looking backward at a life given, spent on the Lord with no outward reward or glory, and finding in that something so deep and meaningful that it almost cannot be uttered.

While I believe that we should be the most forward looking of people on the earth, there is an element to our walk that requires us to pause occasionally and look backward just as we do each time we take the Lord's table. When we do this, the tears remembered are golden.

SC

SC,

Thanks for your comments. I didn't answer this right away because I didn't want to hijack the Mansfield thread and I didn't want to seem argumentative.

I understand your point. But it still doesn't negate the problem I have with the song, which is that it makes suffering a virtue and almost an end in itself, and I don't think that is according to the truth.

Suffering is an evil, plain and simple. It's a product of the fall. What places it in the limelight of virtue is when someone is willing to endure it out of love for another. Suffering in and of itself does not produce character. It is the endurance of suffering for the sake of another or for a higher cause which produces character.

If a person places service to God and others at the paramount, then he will be willing to endure whatever suffering God calls him to. But if a person is pursuing "spirituality" and becomes convinced that suffering is a virtue which can improve spirituality, then he is going to likely become a bit of a masochist, which is ironically a little self-indulgent. I think this is the influence Madam Guyon had on Nee. We've all encounterd Christians who were a little too "into" suffering.

All the Lord's servants are called to suffer. But suffering should be in the line of service, not the service itself. I hope that makes sense.

SpeakersCorner

02-16-2009, 02:22 PM

Suffering is an evil, plain and simple. It's a product of the fall. What places it in the limelight of virtue is when someone is willing to endure it out of love for another. Suffering in and of itself does not produce character. It is the endurance of suffering for the sake of another or for a higher cause which produces character.

Igzy,

I agree with everything in your post except the part quoted above. I'm not sure that suffering is "evil." It is, as you said, a product of something else like a symptom is of a disease. The disease I'll accept as evil but the sympton ... isn't it actually sometimes a good thing? Pain, for instance, signals we need to take care of something.

Tony Dungee, Indy Colts coach (until recently), has a son who doesn't sense pain like the rest of us. He has said that because of his experience with his son he now realizes the necessity of pain.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread either but this point matters to me. One of my lurking concerns is how eternity is going to be very enjoyable if all suffering is taken away. What provides the contrast? It is truly a conundrum as far as I'm concerned. I never get all misty-eyed when people start waxing rapturously about "heaven" and how it will be so perfect and joyful with no sorrow or pain. Something about that tale doesn't ring true with me.

SC

countmeworthy

02-16-2009, 03:29 PM

Igzy,

I agree with everything in your post except the part quoted above. I'm not sure that suffering is "evil." It is, as you said, a product of something else like a symptom is of a disease. The disease I'll accept as evil but the sympton ... isn't it actually sometimes a good thing? Pain, for instance, signals we need to take care of something.

Tony Dungee, Indy Colts coach (until recently), has a son who doesn't sense pain like the rest of us. He has said that because of his experience with his son he now realizes the necessity of pain.

SC & Igzy,
Your points are well taken. SC, I think Igzy summed up whatyou just wrote in his closing statement: All the Lord's servants are called to suffer. But suffering should be in the line of service, not the service itself

There are 2 types of Christians..religious and spiritual/spirit filled.
People who think that by 'suffering' they are doing the Lord's work, are sadly mistaken. I occassionally hear about religious people walking in certain cities during the Lenten season carrying a wooden cross. Wow...how pious huh?

I wonder how many of those people end up at bars after witnessing such pious and religious parades.

One of my lurking concerns is how eternity is going to be very enjoyable if all suffering is taken away. What provides the contrast? It is truly a conundrum as far as I'm concerned. I never get all misty-eyed when people start waxing rapturously about "heaven" and how it will be so perfect and joyful with no sorrow or pain. Something about that tale doesn't ring true with me.

SC !!! There is NOT going to be any suffering in eternity. Suffering will end at the end of the 1000 yr milleniel kingdom when Satan & the nations he brought down during the 1000 yrs will be cast into the lake of fire. At that point, the curtain will be drawn & we will not see the tormented souls who refused God. We often think God is sending people to the lake of fire if they don't get saved..but in truth, they are sending themselves there because they are refusing the love of God. We read in the last chapters of Revelation, during the 2nd half of the Great Trib, people crying out to the rocks to fall on them. They'd rather have ROCKS fall on them than to repent for not receiving the Love of God. The bible says they'll be there for eternity after they go before the Great White Throne at the end of the 1000 yr reign.

I do believe there are going to be tears in heaven but for how long, I don't know. Again we read in Revelation that God WIPES AWAY ALL TEARS. Those tears He is wiping away are not the tears we are experiencing here on earth because In Revelation 7:9, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, are standing
before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This great multitude are the people who came out of the Great trib for vs 14 tells us

..These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Further down in vss 16 & 17 we find the Lamb in the midst of the Throne feeding them and leading them to the fountain of living waters with God wiping away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7:16-They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

vs 17-- For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

And we are all going to live Happily EVER AFTER ! How 'bout that! :hurray:

(Sorry OBW...Just this one time I HAD to jump & clap. Couldn't resist..can't contain myself! )

Cal

02-17-2009, 07:46 AM

countmeworthy

02-17-2009, 10:01 AM

I also can't get around the fact that pain and suffering are not good in and of themselves, they are only good in that they are useful to achieve a purpose. No one wants pain for its own sake.

I think there are several types of pain...
The Loss of a loved one..spouse, family member, friend, pet, the loss of a house through some tragic event..jobs.. That's very painful..and God allows us to mourn. But at some point He turns our mourning into dancing. Not right away most of the time..but He did it for David, He'll do it for us.

While walking in the shadow of death, God sets a table before us in the presence of our enemies...IF we let Him. Tell you what...a person really has to know the LORD, filled with TRUST in HIM..and holding on to Him. Try Praising the LORD with a pure heart..not a fakey display of joy & praise. The flesh can't comprehend it..the carnal mind fights it.

But you do that & you'll experience the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding. Suddenly the Word of God makes sense in your spirit. And you enter into a heavenly realm you can't describe with words.

I'm writing this 'cause I've been there. You wonder why I'm so 'positive'? What I just wrote is part of my journey thus far.

About a year after I got saved, I read a book by Watchman Nee..called 'Practical Issues of this life.' He wrote a chapter called "Precious are the tears.' It stayed with me over the many, many years of my life.

But in the summer of 2003, as I repented to the Lord Jesus for giving the forces of evil permission to sift me like sand, I shed buckets of tears. After I received my forgiveness and the healing process began, and I began to get strong in the Lord & in His Word, I recalled those words "Precious are the tears." I didn't have the book but the other day, I found it in another book I had by Nee. I will quote what he wrote because he wrote it so perfectly:

A dry eye reveals a dry and hard heart. Some regard tears as a sign of weakness, but quite the contrary, the one who has no tears to shed has buried his humanity. Tears have a cleansing effect not only to the physical realm but also in the spiritual realm. In the physical realm, a few tears will help you to see more clearly.

Anyone who fails to cry for sin fails to experience the joy of forsaking sin.

I wish I had never allowed Satan to sift me. But what satan meant for evil God turned to Good. And because I repented for my sins of denial, of unrepentant sin, sin I was carrying on my back since the day I got saved, shedding buckets of tears, I experienced the joy of forsaking sin. A broken and a contrite heart, God will not despise.
--------------
It has to be personal, and real...nothing fakey...nothing in the flesh either.
Lot of people confuse tears of flesh with tears of spirit.
--------------
And Igzy, you are correct too...God didn't create us to be sorrowful, pitifiul creatures. No one wants or should want pain. But when we're going through it, make the best of it...Don't go through it 'alone'.

TLFisher

04-03-2009, 06:58 PM

Here is the link to 2009 West Coast Conference.
http://www.westcoastchristianconference.com/2009/
It is being held at San Fransisco State University July 22-26.
The theme is: Recovering the Testimony of Christ

countmeworthy

04-03-2009, 07:29 PM

Don't forget they just had a conference in Atlanta 2 weeks ago and then there is the Memorial weekend conference in Phili...all ahead of the San Fran conference...

Ho-Hum.... :puttingtosleep:

TLFisher

04-04-2009, 12:03 AM

CMW, please enlighten me about these conferences? Personally the speaking of Lance Lambert keeps my attention. The humility in the speaking is refreshing and adjusting.

Terry

UntoHim

04-04-2009, 07:56 AM

Terry is not talking about a conference of the Local Church of Witness Lee/LSM, but rather a conference run by Stephen Kaung's ministry...see http://www.christiantapeministry.com/

-

countmeworthy

04-04-2009, 08:27 AM

Thanks for the clarification Unto.

Sorry Terry.......the conferences I referred to are LSM/LC.
I can stop scratching my head now wondering what you meant by
the speaking of Lance Lambert keeps my attention. The humility in the speaking is refreshing and adjusting.I don't know who Lance Lambert was...and my mind was wondering why you seemed to have such an interest in this man's sharing/speaking....thinking he was LSM. :D DUH! :D

IDon'tKnow

04-15-2009, 05:52 PM

Around the end of Last year I got the impression from one of the conferences that the whole situation in the midwest had been cleared up. Now seeing as how they have moved on to excomunicating (sorry quarantining) Dong Yu I'm guessing that at least from LSMs point of view they've finished with Titus, now it's time to chop off some new limbs.

So the question is what does it look like down on the ground in the midwest, have they managed to smash Titus to the point where his followers are blown around like chaff in the wind, or is just a simple case off all the former churches in the midwest are now considered as being sects and they've raised up a bright shining new churches of 10 people from out of town or loyalists to replace it.

UntoHim

04-17-2009, 08:19 PM

It seems to me that Titus Chu is going about his business in pretty much the same way he has for 30+ years. Maybe the big difference is that he has lost influence (and $ I assume) from a number of former "satellite" churches in the Midwest area. We know that nobody over at the headquarters over in Anaheim has produced one shred of evidence that he has "taught different" then Witness Lee. If anything, he follows and teaches Lee closer then any of the blended brothers. The whole thing really defies logic. Somebody closer to the whole situation can fill us in on this situation much better then I can.

As an aside, I remember that a number of LC/Lee critics predicted that, after Lee passed on, there would be major dissension and division, and much of it would be over "interpreting the interpreter". It took a number of years but their predictions proved to be prophetic.

Of course it is now apparent that quite of number of the blended brothers to-be have had it out for ole Titus for a long, long time. We also know that their claims that they are simply following through on Witness Lee's wishes belies their huge conflict of interest. If Lee wanted to "quarantine" Titus Chu he could have (and would have) done so with not much more then a lifting of his finger. He would have disposed of Titus just as he had done to all the others - simply stand up at the podium and declared him a "rebellious, evil leper" who let ambition and opinion destroy him. (and of course Lee knew it all along, he was just giving him a chance)

-

SpeakersCorner

04-18-2009, 08:15 AM

The churches in the Midwest have been going through a period of self-examination, I believe, or maybe vision-examination would be a better word. They are at as many places in this process as there are churches. Uniformity is not the codeword here.

Most, maybe all, are happy that the LSM drew the line in the sand. It was liberating. But like liberating a housecat into a life in the wild, there are perils. Some are stepping cautiously into the new world. Some hover near other houses (to continue my cat into the wild metaphor) where it appears more safe. None that I know of has any inclination to return to the LSM fold.

Let me leave the metaphor and be more clear. A few churches here have questioned the whole no name business. Some have adopted names like "XX Christian Fellowship." This has caused some debate among the churches but it has been friendly and open. I have heard no condemnation.

Some have experimented with raising up new churches according to models used by Rick Warren and others: doing surveys, being seeker-based, having Sunday a.m. services that are short, modern, and friendly. Longstanding practices like having communion every week have been altered in some locations ... but certainly not all. Music, a big sticking point in the debate with the LSMers earlier, has broadened and now it is not uncommon for churches to use drums, have a band of some sorts, and sing a mix of contemporary praise songs as well as hymns from the old hymnal. But there is no standard practice regarding music: churches are definitely all over the map on music.

Our theology has not changed too much but the WL worship is gone. The ground of the church doctrine is under review in some places (not all). Long time saints still call on the Lord audibly in meetings and in their personal lives but this practice has definitely diminished. Young folks don't cotton to it. The youth conferences (Ignite, Mountaintop) which caused so much consternation, are still going on with attendance staying strong but not quite as high as at its peak. Of course, the loss of whole churches from the pool (like Chicago) is the biggest reason for this. But the novelty is off which is both a good and bad thing.

Numberswise, I think the general attendance in meetings in the Midwest churches is holding fairly steady. But it has dropped off in some churches that were hardest hit by the "storm." I know of at least two churches where growth is definitely occurring.

We continue to have regional conferences once or twice a year and attendance seems to be as high as ever. The speaking in the conferences is sometimes old school, sometimes new. By that I mean it is sometimes long, sometimes short and punchy. It depends on the speaker. The level of "anointing," in my view, is still very high, perhaps higher than a few years back before all the controversy. This entire controversy has opened up areas of the Bible in new ways.

The LSMers will use as proof that we in the Midwest were rebels and wrong if the churches here fail. That was the argument they used against the 80's "storm" with Ingalls and company. "Look at the fruit," they say. It is a legitimate yardstick ... as long as we can all agree on what the yardstick looks like and what it is saying. My yardstick includes a section that evaluates the amount of liberating truth that is coming out of the ministry. A stagnant message, ritualistic repetition of previous insights is not a good outcome. In this, we in the Midwest kick the LSM's butt all over the parking lot. But by their accounting, they have the anointing because they continue to commune with the deceased WL. (I yearn for the time when he actually appears and says, "Why have you disquieted me from my slumber?" But I digress.)

I guess you could sum up my view of things like this. The Midwest churches are in dangerous territory, perhaps a wilderness. They could fail. The LSM churches are in safe territory and will probably "succeed" if by success you mean continue for another four hundred years. But it's Babylon.

One last anecdote. A leading brother from Chicago recently reportedly said, "You churches under TC are a denomination." I laughed out loud when I heard that one. It's wrong on so many levels. First, we're not under TC. Second, we have less denominational traits than back in the good old days. We don't all even have the same name anymore. We have no institutional benefits. And third, look who's talking. A member of the group with a headquarters, a seminary, and an army of cardinals (but no pope yet).

The above represents my view only. Like all reports on any subject, it is biased and subjective. Some here will likely dispute aspects of it. I haven't been to every church in the area and some of my information is secondhand. But I think I'm pretty close to the reality of the situation.

SC

kisstheson

04-18-2009, 08:32 AM

Hello dear ones,

SC - thanks so much for the in-depth update. Lots of very encouraging signs there! I have listened to many of the GLA messages to which you have posted links in the past and I do find almost all of them very encouraging and enlightening. The fresh seeking of the Lord which is going on in the GLA really comes through in the speaking of the GLA brothers.

Getting back to IDon'tKnow's question and comments. I remember almost one year ago, at last year's LSM Memorial Day Conference, there was some very strong speaking regarding the need to "retake the ground" in all the "rebellious" localities in the Midwest. In fact, this appears to be have been the seed from which "Gospelize, Truthize, Churchize America" sprang forth. So, while LSM is resigned to the loss of all these dear ones and all these localities, they will gradually be moving brothers and sisters from other parts of the U.S. to "retake" the Midwest. This process of bringing in "out of town loyalists" has already begun in Columbus, OH and Urbana-Champagne, IL.

UntoHim

04-18-2009, 09:44 AM

Many thanks to SpeaksCorner. Great insights and observations.

When all the dust settles, here is the most important thing I believe:
...The Midwest churches are in dangerous territory, perhaps a wilderness. They could fail. The LSM churches are in safe territory and will probably "succeed" if by success you mean continue for another four hundred years. But it's Babylon..

I am still really curious about Chicago. Are they still a firm and staunch "LSM" church that is fully in the fold? I understand that Jim Reetzke is a hardliner, but what about the others? I assume their are now "split" families there in the Midwest - kind of like the civil war when brother ended up frighting brother (one in the Confederate South and the other in the Union North).

I think some churches will fail, some will remain stagnant and some will regain their health and actually grow. The main determining factor will be the return to God's Word. This is what has been the salvation to any individual who has left the LC religion (system) and this will be the salvation of any former LSM church if they choose to stay together. My experience and close observation is that the more one returns to the Word the more one will find themselves at odds with "the ministry". Many of us have had to go through this "process" alone, and let me tell you it is a long and rocky road to hoe. (most of us still have pick in hand and still swingin away). I am actually very envious and even a little jealous of you brothers and sisters in the Midwest. There is strength in numbers. May God continue to strengthen, bless and encourage all them in this "dangerous territory".

-

SpeakersCorner

04-18-2009, 09:56 AM

I am still really curious about Chicago. Are they still a firm and staunch "LSM" church that is fully in the fold? I understand that Jim Reetzke is a hardliner, but what about the others? I assume their are now "split" families there in the Midwest - kind of like the civil war when brother ended up frighting brother (one in the Confederate South and the other in the Union North).

Unto,

You are pretty much right. There are split families. I've heard tales of brothers who cannot talk to each other anymore. I know of families split parents to children (interestingly, in one case it's the children who went LSM).

Chicago lumbers on. But there is a contingent, a remnant if you will, who meet outside the "Meeting Place of the Church in Chicago"'s jurisdiction. They call themselves nothing, I believe. They aren't even the church with no name. They're just a collection of believers who once met in the LSM stronghold and no longer do, for a variety of reasons.

We are all brothers, of course. One day these trifling walls of separation will be blown down by the mere nostril breathing of our returning Lord. But today, they stand like cardboard fences, pathetic but somewhat effective.

I've had opportunity to "fellowship" (in my case, simply be with) several who camp on the other side of those cardboard fences. It was kind of like the North serving the South tea during a break in the action (it happened, I'm told). A tad uneasy, but once we had talked past the 800-pound gorilla, rather sweet. I do believe the rank and file saints in Chicago are grieved by the loss of fellowship with others in the region. They're just trying to follow the guidance they're receiving from the leaders. So I credit them there.

Chicago surely was the key for the LSM in making the break. But if I were the LSM, I'd be just a bit concerned about that church. My hunch is that there is an undercurrent there that hasn't bought into this whole LSM thing. It's just a hunch, really, but hunches are kind of spiritual now, aren't they? Time will tell if this one was.

SC

countmeworthy

04-18-2009, 11:33 AM

What are the gatherings/meetings/get togethers like for the saints meeting outside the LSM ?

We had the lingo, the tone, the mannerisms. How are they trying to break away from that? OR are they? This is not a judgmental question. (Pentecostals have their own sing/song tone & 'release'. It drives me bonkers to hear their sing/song rendition of 'prophesy'.

How do they meet and what do they talk about?

Just wondering.

SpeakersCorner

04-18-2009, 11:56 AM

Slowly but surely the cultural aspects of the LSM church life are disappearing. Some churches have made a concerted effort to purge some of the dead practices (the rote calling, rote hymn recitals, Amen-drumbeat prayers) but mostly these things are dying of their own accord. They all had their place once but, like all seasons, time moves on.

In several churches they have one-hour Lord's day meetings (and they don't call it "Lord's Day" much). It consists of song and message mostly, the message being twenty minutes long or so. In other churches, the meetings are still fairly long and the music is hymnal-driven. In some of the smaller groups, the meetings are more like a small group setting with a very informal atmosphere, Bible study like in some respects. It's a range, really. All of the churches, though, have had some changes. Faux enthusiasm is gone, something I greatly appreciate. I suppose the meetings are quieter than they once were -- I know ours are. But part of that's because of a drop in numbers.

To me, the meetings have become more real. I kind of see three phases to the LC meetings. Phase one was that shouting phase of the 70's with (mostly) honest enthusiasm and spirit. Phase two was the shouting phase of the 80's, with ritualized enthusiasm and spirit (not totally). Phase three is the non-shouting phase, with more questions than answers but with an earnestness of spirit.

I oversimplify. But that's been my experience pretty much.

SC

Former LC member

04-19-2009, 03:47 PM

Thank you for the catch up SpeakersCorner. I find this news very encouraging. As you seek the Lord"s face and discover anew His Word, you will experience transformed lives and meetings. Then those of us who stumble on on our own, will have some hope infused into us, that there is life after the LC. You and the other churches in the Mid West, are a beacon of light, not only to the unbelievers, but the other christians who have left the system.
God bless.

UntoHim

04-19-2009, 07:59 PM

You and the other churches in the Mid West, are a beacon of light, not only to the unbelievers, but the other christians who have left the system.God bless.

Yeah, what she say:iagree:

Thanks Joanna for saying what so many of us are thinking but haven't been able to articulate as well.

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us"

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen"

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AndPeter

04-20-2009, 07:54 AM

Speakerscorner’s informative post prompted me to do the same-give a personal report on how I view the current situation in a “Post-LSM" local church, in this case Toronto, Canada. There is life after exiting the “LSM fold.” In fact there is the life that is really life after leaving the LSM fold.

It is now 2 years almost to the day since the letter of dis-association (link-to-letter (http://www.thechurchintoronto.ca/cit/r/cit/wiki/fetch.wikipage?w=news&p=DecClarifyApril2007)) was sent to the church in Toronto by those of the LSM persuasion and who felt to separate (dis-associate) from us based on this persuasion.

The views presented here are my personal views as I see them from my vantage point. I am in fellowship with a good number of the brothers and sisters that continue to meet with us or have started meeting with us. “A good number,” however, does not mean all, as our number makes that quite difficult. As I stated, this 'where we are at' post is from my perspective point and each person, by God's arrangement, has their own perspective.

I will summarize into 6 categories, the sequence of which has no particular significance.

The Word is being opened up
Contrary to what one might expect now that the “'supply' has been cut off”, I would say that the Word has been opened to us in a way I have not seen in years. Once we are released from the shackles of adhering to one ministry we are discovering how much the Lord is really doing through many able ministers of the Word. In particular, we are no longer bound to the thinking that the foot-noted interpretation of a Bible passage or verse is the only possible interpretation.

In fact, in several instances as noted on this discussion site and elsewhere there are cases where the LSM interpretation of a passage or verse is highly suspect. These are all factored into our ongoing re-evaluation of what we were formerly taught. Much of what we previously received is helpful for our Christian walk, some is not. More generally, most passages of Scripture can be viewed from “several angles” and have multiple applications to our personal & corporate Christian lives. Our horizons are being expanded beyond the narrow confines of LSM-approved interpretations & applications.

Having the realization 'We are not it'
This realization was one of the first matters we touched 2 years ago. We are still in the process of escaping from our elitist attitude. This was touched on in the recent Toronto Easter weekend again. There is a real resonance to this matter in the brothers and sisters. Just recently a sister in our small group shared how she had been hindered by this elitist attitude among us for years. About 15 years ago she was revived by a formerly obnoxious co-worker who got saved and fell in love with Jesus and became so pleasant to be with. The saved one's pastor lead a lunch time bible study which she began to attend and was instrumental in her revival because it caused her to read the Word and other christian writings (she read one book a day). They even preached the gospel together to their colleagues. This caused her even more angst whenever she saw those among us despise those in Christianity from which she had received so much help. Now, she testified, she is happy we have moved on from this horrible attitude.

We are realizing that many brothers & sisters who do not meet with us have a closer walk with the Lord, a more earnest seeking for God’s kingdom & a brighter testimony before the world than we do. This ought to elicit a more humble attitude on our part. Moreover the callous actions of LSM-zealots stand in stark contrast to the understanding & warm reception from “outsiders.”

The “other side of this coin” is that since 'we are not it' we can & should learn & receive from other Christians. We’re learning (it’s never too late to learn) that there are able “men (and women) of God” outside the “Lord’s Recovery” who have learned valuable lessons before God from which we can benefit-from their speaking, writings, videos, pod-casts, concerts etc etc.

Liberated to follow the Lord in simplicity.
For years we had knowingly compromised what the Lord was speaking within us in order to keep the peace within the “Lord’s Recovery.” Today we are able to follow the Lord's leading in a much simpler way. For example, we recently covered the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10. The verse that was emphasized was one that was previously skipped over. The verse is the last one in the story. "Go and you do likewise" (v37). Previously good works had been downplayed & despised. Yes, there is a valid point about works without Christ being of little value. This was, in my understanding, previously used to eliminate works of any kind. However, the Word is clear.

For example.
Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Jas 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

So now among us there is a revived interest in expressing the Lord through Christian good works, especially within the young people among us. Previously this would have been frowned upon or even spoken against from the La Palma podium.

Freedom to Innovate
We have left behind a situation where both teachings & practices were narrowly defined (e.g. by the “God-ordained Way” & related practices). Innovations like (God-forbid) electric guitars, drama, Young-peoples’ MountainTop were vehemently attacked from the LSM-podium. Now the leaders & members of the Church have the opportunity to seek “new means” before the Lord to present the gospel & minister life & truth to believers. The styles of music & ministry have changed & will probably change further. The interior design & exterior presentation of our meeting hall is being re-vamped -- making it more “user friendly” & “seeker friendly.” We are taking the first steps to interact & impact our immediate neighborhood.

Seeing signs of life
As a congregation that has passed through a turmoil there were unfortunately casualties. For the most part the majority is doing well in the Lord while a very small number continue to have discomfort with the changes the Lord is bringing us through on our journey. Among some there are encouraging signs of life, whether it is related to the gospel, service, care for one another or a hunger for His Word. However, to say more at this time about these cases may damage the fruit before it has time to mature.

The Lord will get His bride
The previous understanding was that we had to be one so that the Lord could return for His glorious bride who had made herself ready. Yes, the Lord will return for His glorious bride and we hope soon. How the bride “makes herself ready” is what has to be scrutinized. The previous understanding that the so-called local churches will lead the way is now shown to be without merit. As I see the present situation it is near impossible for the bride to be prepared which perhaps means it is the time for the Lord to step in.

I have, however, heard recently of cases of christian leaders in cities coming together for prayer and fellowship and then returning to their respective congregations strengthened by the fellowship. Perhaps the walls are coming down. Perhaps this is the way the Lord will work out his plan.

Conclusion
This report is a snapshot of where we are at and does not cover all aspects of what the Lord is doing among us in Toronto. To those contemplating breaking out from the “LSM shackles” I would reiterate, according to our experience, that there is not doom and gloom outside of the “LSM fold” but rather the enjoyment of His grace, His life and His peace.

Steve

UntoHim

04-20-2009, 10:30 AM

Conclusion
This report is a snapshot of where we are at and does not cover all aspects of what the Lord is doing among us in Toronto. To those contemplating breaking out from the “LSM shackles” I would reiterate, according to our experience, that there is not doom and gloom outside of the “LSM fold” but rather the enjoyment of His grace, His life and His peace.
Steve
:hurray:

Thank you so much Steve for taking the time to post this.

-

Former LC member

04-20-2009, 04:24 PM

Thank you Steve. Another encouraging story. I have been so built up reading it. Great is your faithfulness Lord. Morning by morning new mercies we see!

IDon'tKnow

04-20-2009, 06:59 PM

For years we had knowingly compromised what the Lord was speaking within us in order to keep the peace within the “Lord’s Recovery.” Today we are able to follow the Lord's leading in a much simpler way. For example, we recently covered the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10. The verse that was emphasized was one that was previously skipped over. The verse is the last one in the story. "Go and you do likewise" (v37). Previously good works had been downplayed & despised. Yes, there is a valid point about works without Christ being of little value. This was, in my understanding, previously used to eliminate works of any kind. However, the Word is clear.The interpretation of the good samaritan in the recovery definitely bothered me in the lc. It always seemed strange that the Lord would speak a parable to this lawyer for which the emphasis was the need of the lawyer to treated by Christ and taken to the church and then have him say "Go and you do likewise". To me it seemed that if this was the idea the Lord was attempting to convey to the lawyer the more obvious thing for the Lord to say to the lawyer would be "Come follow me". Either way it is good that you are no longer boxed in by any particular interpretation.

Hope

04-21-2009, 12:11 PM

While we are sharing on our post LSM experience, I thought I would add a little from the small, humble and meek who are dwelling in North Carolina, Zeph 3:11-12, "In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain. But I will leave among you a humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the LORD.“ NASB

The MAJOR difference is that the focus is just on Christ and just on people. The agenda and program or “flow” or whatever is the latest and greatest does not mean much. The brothers who have some measure of responsibility take the responsibility to serve any and all. The saints call the shots not “the brothers.” One straying sheep is very very valuable, so much so that we must go into the desert UNTIL the one lost lamb is found. While the prodigal son is still A GREAT WAY OFF, we must run to greet him and prepare a big celebration feast. We cannot afford to throw away a bruise reed or quench a smoking flax.

We do not despise a college professor but we work hard at reaching the poor. In Durham, we rent a van every Lord’s Day evening to transport a groups of poor refugees to a gospel gathering. We look for opportunities to serve the poor and needy. People is what matters to Christ not some kind of quality control standard.

We are not great. We are not it. Christ is great. The Believers are it. And God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son …

We have discovered that Christ as our head is well able to shepherd us directly as individuals and collectively as His Body, the Church.

KSA

05-08-2009, 04:27 AM

Thank you for all these reports. It's really encouraging to hear. I wonder if churches in South America follow the same steps. Having been out of LSM system for several years now, I appreciate freedom in the Lord very much. To me the church life is so much about relationship now - relationship with the Lord and with the saints. The Lord calls us His friends. And He explains that as His friends we have right to know secrets of His heart. If the relationship with the Lord are established on friendship with Him, our relationship with each other should be based on the same thing. One of the most damaging things in LC system was renunciation of friendship. But without real friendship (not the one that is based on the loyalty to one man) the church life becomes impersonal.

Well, I think this thread is not the best place to develop this. Again, I am really happy for the churches in the Great Lakes area. :hurray:

Suannehill

09-29-2009, 07:08 PM

What is it like?
Much like Christ...
each person is following and loving the Lord in a very solid way. Don't really need a large entity to announce the new latest burden...the Lord is very able to do that Himself in all of His people.

TLFisher

10-01-2009, 09:10 PM

I read this article tonight:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_re/us_rel_evangelical_feud

What touched me was the quote from this one brother:

"Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church is going to grow," Ashcraft said. "And the other church ... is going to grow also. And God will be glorified at both."

In light of the rift, the heart is to glorify God.

Terry

manna-man

10-01-2009, 09:40 PM

Interesting event.

Stephan Tchividjian was ordained at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. I remember the day Billy Grahm showed up for the ordination. Standing room only. My son went to Westminster Academy. The School James Kennedy founded. Great school. Kennedy was a great brother.
I wish the best for those brothers and sisters. Please consider them in your prayers.
Oh, and I do believe they will grow because Stephan is a wonderful brother in the Lord.

Sincerely,

JR.

Ohio

10-19-2009, 06:32 AM

In Cleveland's recent summer training and posted in their latest Fellowship Journal, the following "Comments" were highlighted and boxed for emphasis ...

Our Christian life must be governed by the Spirit rather than ways or methods, even though we need "ways" to carry out certain things. If our Christian life becomes governed by some way rather than the Spirit, that is a tragedy. For instance, we should be careful regarding anything that can lead or drive our singing beside the Spirit. Anything of Christ that is deep or profound can be spoiled by how it is carried out. Music can help us touch the Lord, but music should not take over. It is because of this that I am a "dissuader" when it comes to the use of drums in the meetings. We should not be against the possibility of using certain things, but neither should we allow anything to replace the Spirit. What should determine everything in the churchlife is whether our enjoyment is of the Spirit, or of something else. ... The problem is that so few Christians really know the Spirit. -- Titus Chu, July 2009My first reaction reading this was that the matter of "drums" was being used to signal a return to the old, old ways of dominance by "headquarters. Do you really think that all Christians who have drums in their meetings, qualify as "so few Christians really know the Spirit." If you think that this is just quote is just "one person's views," let me note that the LC where I formerly served, no longer has drums to accompany their guitars during music worship. They abruptly stopped using drums.

It is so-called "fellowship" like this which is how all LC mandates were disseminated from above. Standard Modus Operandi. If one would challenge this "fellowship," then leaders would diffuse it saying, "TC is just sharing his feelings, based on his experience." But leaders know there is much more to this ...

The use of drums or not is 100% cultural. TC doesn't like them, but instead of just saying "I just don't like them," he shrouds his "feelings" in spiritual talks to persuade others under his influence. He provides no scripture, because there is none. Any item of a million things in the churchlife could have been been inserted in the above quote to replace "drums." Could not the piano be used to "lead or drive our singing beside the Spirit" and "to replace the Spirit" thus becoming a great "tragedy." That was Darby's "opinion" about pianos, and the very reason why exclusive Brethren, to this day, have never had musical accompaniment for their hymns.

countmeworthy

10-19-2009, 10:58 AM

The 'danger' with what people like TC said is they are inadvertantly or even perhaps purposely trying to interject THEIR OWN OPINIONS on what is from the Spirit and what is not.

There is some music where the drums played are beautiful and uplifting and there is other music where it is wayyyyyy too loud for me! And YES...some of it, perhaps A LOT of it is CARNAL. Do I go telling people it is carnal and 'of the devil' ? NO.....unless they ask ! :D

I try not to concern myself with judging other people's preferences. I am more concerned with making sure I AM in right standing with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I also try to seek like minded people filled with the Holy Spirit and the Word of God so that I may grow stronger in Christ Jesus and be built up in the Spirit of Unity with the LORD.

There are a lot of people who blow a lot of hot air and are full of hot air. It is refreshing when we meet those who are on the same page we are in or even better on a higher plane than us.

TLFisher

10-19-2009, 12:47 PM

The emphasis of the music should be about Making a Joyful Noise to the Lord. The music leads us to worship, but it's not the center of worship.
As for musical instruments, culture is truly a driving influence on what instruments to use.

What about the saints who have visited Africa, China, and other countries?What musical instruments do they use in song worship?

Being raised in the local church, there wasn't any use of electrical instruments. Where I currently meet, there is use of electrical instruments. It's not according to my cultural upbringing, but it's not right or wrong. It's about leading the assembly into worship through music.

Terry

countmeworthy

10-19-2009, 01:19 PM

The emphasis of the music should be about Making a Joyful Noise to the Lord. The music leads us to worship, but it's not the center of worship.
As for musical instruments, culture is truly a driving influence on what instruments to use.
What about the saints who have visited Africa, China, and other countries?What musical instruments do they use in song worship?

Being raised in the local church, there wasn't any use of electrical instruments. Where I currently meet, there is use of electrical instruments. It's not according to my cultural upbringing, but it's not right or wrong. It's about leading the assembly into worship through music.

Terry

Nice job of 'splaining it in a nutshell Terry! :thumbsup:

OBW

10-20-2009, 06:07 AM

What about the saints who have visited Africa, China, and other countries?What musical instruments do they use in song worship?I visited a church (not Local Church) in Nairobi in the early 90s. Electric and acoustic guitar, bass and drums. Had a sound similar to Reggae. Some of the songs were familiar.

Ohio

10-20-2009, 09:38 AM

I visited a church (not Local Church) in Nairobi in the early 90s. Electric and acoustic guitar, bass and drums. Had a sound similar to Reggae. Some of the songs were familiar.

All the points about music are well taken, but what troubled me about that quote was the "spiritualization" of cultural preferences in order to control believers and churches under the sphere of influence of a regional LC leader. This became typical of so many things in exclusive settings, whether the Brethren or the Recovery. Leadership preferences get "spiritualized" and then become dogma for all his adherents.

The recent quarantines did serve positively to "shake things up," and then force many saints to step back and take a "good hard look" at many things that had been taken for granted for many years. Music was just one arena which the GLA looked at. They were delivered from the imposed bondage of LSM mandates to use "pianos only and the hymnal." The GLA LC's, for a season, had the liberty to use any instruments they desired in order to "make a joyful noise" in their worship of the Lord. LSM, of course, strongly condemned them for using such "gimmicks."

http://www.afaithfulword.org/articles/YPappeal.html#ForsakeGimmicks

These freedoms, however, appear to be short-lived. When the "powers to be" take away the liberty we have in worshiping the Lord in music, they don't tend to stop there. They continue to invade other arenas of the churchlife. If this is the case, then why not reattach yourselves to the LSM-promoting churches. Today you are told what instrument to use. Tomorrow you will be told what book to read.

UntoHim

10-20-2009, 09:45 AM

The use of drums or not is 100% cultural. TC doesn't like them, but instead of just saying "I just don't like them," he shrouds his "feelings" in spiritual talks to persuade others under his influence. He provides no scripture, because there is none

Witness Lee taught that there should be no culture in the church. He also taught we should have no opinion. He also taught that we should all speak the same thing and that all the churches should be the same. Now this would be all well and good if humans were nothing but a benign blob of molecules of oxygen and carbon. This is the part of man that God "formed from the dust of the ground" and in this respect humans are all basically the same. But God went further then to just "form" man, He then "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul".

Funny thing about us living souls, we all seem to have different tastes and preferences. Different tastes and preferences in food, different tastes and preferences in clothes, different tastes and preferences in friends and on and on. And guess what? We all have different tastes in music. My observation and experience (coming from a very large family, being married for 25+years, raising 2 kids and just life in general) is that when you FORCE another human to take on your tastes and preferences, you are simply making them exchange their living soul tastes and preferences for yours. The truth is that one living soul cannot really change another living soul - ONLY GOD, THE ONE WHO BREATHED LIFE INTO THE LIVING SOUL, can really change us. Eventually He will even change our bodies but we'll have to wait on that one.

Religion only pretends to change us as a living soul. Religion is just putting lipstick on a pig.:idea:This includes the "christian" religion and this includes the religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee. When Titus Chu, longtime member and leader in the Local Church, speaks of his dislike of drums he is simply exposing his personal tastes and preferences in music, which in turn he probably just took from Witness Lee.

As an aside, I think Titus has every right (and even obligation) to influence those brothers and sisters in the local church in Cleveland - I assume that he is still the lead elder/pastor there. I would find it somewhat disingenuous, however, that a LOCAL elder from a LOCAL church should attempt to influence (must less force) an entire region or large group of churches to conform to his tastes and preferences. This flies in the face of the teachings of Nee and Lee. Now we all know that Witness Lee never really practiced the biblical autonomy of the local church, but at least he talked a good game. So what the hey, Titus learned from the best so what do you expect?

Finally, those members of the local church in Cleveland who strongly disagree with Chu here are free to simply express their opinion with their feet and "get out of Dodge" so to speak. That's right - go to another church that suits your living soul better! Life is too short to worry about such silly things as drums or no drums.

"...and my soul-life at last I lay down" - Always hated that one.

Rant over.

Prayerful

10-23-2009, 08:41 AM

I did some inquiry, and according to my sources, those attending the conference where TC spoke these words took them only as his opinion and not as an imposition. In fact, I am told that many (not all) of the churches around Cleveland, including Cleveland itself, use a variety of instruments, including at times drums and electric guitars. They say that there is a lot of freedom to make a joyful noise however the Spirit leads. The church that TC’s own son-in-law leads is very contemporary in this and all matters of worship. As a result, it is quite successful in reaching out to the community.

The inclusion of this short article in their magazine, along with the highlighting, etc, was entirely the choice of the magazine’s editor. TC probably never intended for these words to go into print as they did. Nevertheless, he did speak this, so it shows where he is concerning drums, etc. personally.

Ohio

10-23-2009, 11:56 AM

I did some inquiry, and according to my sources, those attending the conference where TC spoke these words took them only as his opinion and not as an imposition.

Thanks for this post, Prayerful.

I do know that TC's "opinion" does not influence all the GLA leaders like it once did, but there are still some with whom it does. Definitely. I know some.

But you bring up another point. Since TC is, of course, well aware of the "church that TC’s own son-in-law leads is very contemporary in this and all matters of worship. As a result, it is quite successful in reaching out to the community," then why would he voice his opinion at a regional conference? Why would he disagree publicly with what the Lord is blessing? He surely knows that his opinions are taken as "gospel" by many, just as WL's opinions were.

I have long said, to the effect, that TC "shoots himself in the foot" when it comes to the way he treats people and exerts his influence on them. He was not speaking locally, but rather regionally. He knows that his messages reach a wider audience, because they are posted online. As the leading minister, he should not be sharing "spiritual" fellowship to a widespread audience that will sow seeds of controversy among many of the young people.

Let me say plainly that I am not a fan of drums. I am not insisting on any instrument. Most contemporary churches use drum "shields" because the sound can be overpowering. Drums are just rhythm instruments. They establish a music "frequency." There is no way that a set of "drums," can be spiritual or not spiritual, any more than a piano. Isn't it just ridiculous that Christian leaders once viewed pianos as "worldly," but now see them as "spiritual."

Let's get back to the bigger point. I have repeatedly said that the recent quarantine was simply a power struggle between opposing factions. Leaders fighting leaders about who controls the sheep. Of course, all the "talk" back then was "spiritualized" with Biblical "principles," but it was all "smokescreen" for the real issues. The GLA churches felt the battle was about their Christian liberties. It was about the liberty to publish books. Liberty to pick what book to read. Liberty to pick what song to sing. Liberty to pick what instrument to use during worship.

TC's opinion is a step in the wrong direction.

Many other points were made in the recent conference that were also steps in the wrong direction.

.

TLFisher

10-23-2009, 10:53 PM

Let me say plainly that I am not a fan of drums. I am not insisting on any instrument. Drums are just rhythm instruments. They establish a music "frequency." There is no way that a set of "drums," can be spiritual or not spiritual, any more than a piano. Isn't it just ridiculous that Christian leaders once viewed pianos as "worldly," but now see them as "spiritual."

Ohio, I share your sentiments. Drums are a rhythm instrument. They help set a tone just as a piano does. Not having learned to play any instrument, I respect those that do.

Terry

awareness

10-23-2009, 11:05 PM

Ohio:
Many other points were made in the recent conference that were also steps in the wrong direction.

Hey bro Ohio. Good to hear your voice, so to speak.

I attend a Church of Christ assembly, and drums, piano, or any instrument is considered the opposite of worship.

I remember Lee putting the kibosh on drums and tambourines back in the early 70's, when they broke out in Cleveland. That spoke loudly to me. Personally I don't care of the use of instruments or no instruments. I like the enjoyment in the Spirit, which can be found either way.

And in Cleveland I was really enjoying the Spirit. Great meetings. The kind you can't wait to get to. And the drums and tambourines added to it. It wasn't the drums per se, it was the release in the Spirit that mattered. And that was good, and all of it was good, the drums too.

Then Lee's shoe dropped. Next meeting wasn't so good. That's when we were told that Lee said "NO! NO!

During that meeting, I walked out, into the balcony that surrounded the building we were meeting in, on the second floor.

I was eager for another meeting in the spirit, and what I got was authority as thick as butter. It was a real downer, a definite Spirit killer.

I looked out, over the rail on the balcony, and thought : If the Spirit isn't in control, and Lee is, what do we have?

By then I was drinking the kool-aid, and let it go. But the church was different after that. I learned that what Lee said went, even if the Spirit was squelched.

And meetings after that were far and in between that allowed the Spirit freedom. They were precious when they happened. They just didn't happen as often.

If I'm seeking to go with the Spirit, and I have to second guess what Lee wants, thinks, or commands, that's a killer. Probably, in reality, the meetings went on pretty much the same as they always had, but the problem was instilled me, by a new realization. I was changed by the realization that authority came from the "Command Center" way off somewhere ; didn't matter where, just envisioning it was a killer.

So TC is the leading minister. That just extends his reach, and extends the Spirit killing Command Center. If it's a choice between the Spirit and TC, which would you chose? To me TC would be packing sand. But I'm not dependent upon TC, nor anyone else. Let everyone live what he or she sees.

But let me guess. TC's reach didn't kill everyone. Some don't like drums. They're happy, and saying "No Drums! Amen! Amen!" They don't know that by so doing they let something else slip in. They didn't want drums, and were happy, but what they got also was, "Command Center." They'll eventually be sorry for that. It robs the Spirit ; the whole point in going to a meeting. If the Spirit's not there, what point is the meeting, unless we settle for religion, that is. Religion is a drag to me. Want no part of it. Dung is what it seems to me. Arduous. I learn the meaning of eternity trying to sit thru it.

But bro Ohio. We have to grow up. We have to grow to enjoy the Spirit anywhere and everywhere, not just in the meetings. And when we learn that, to hell with non-led Spirit meetings. Who needs 'em?

TC is irrelevant. So are the BBs. I don't owe them nothing, and neither does anyone else. But, to each their own. If you don't like it, leave. Find someplace else. Try your back yard. It's as good as any place.

Ohio

10-24-2009, 07:03 AM

I remember Lee putting the kibosh on drums and tambourines back in the early 70's, when they broke out in Cleveland ... I was really enjoying the Spirit. Great meetings. The kind you can't wait to get to. And the drums and tambourines added to it. It wasn't the drums per se, it was the release in the Spirit that mattered. Then Lee's shoe dropped. Next meeting we were told that Lee said "NO! NO! I was eager for another meeting in the spirit, and what I got was authority ... a definite Spirit killer. I thought : If the Spirit isn't in control, and Lee is, what do we have?

So TC is the leading minister. That just extends his reach, and extends the Spirit killing Command Center. If it's a choice between the Spirit and TC, which would you chose? ... But let me guess. TC's reach didn't kill everyone. Some don't like drums. They're happy, and saying "No Drums!" They don't know that by so doing they let something else slipped in. They didn't want drums, and were happy, but what they got also was, "Command Center."

In this regard, what TC has told us for years is really true, "Everything I know ... I learned from WL." For typical LC folks, whether pro-LSM or pro-GLA, there is no such thing as the question, "If it's a choice between the Spirit and TC, which would you chose?" What do you mean "choose?" Didn't TC "raise us up?" Didn't TC "establish the GLA churches?" Isn't he is one with the Spirit. Doesn't the Spirit speak thru him?

Exclusive systems always have one man at the top! The RCC has its succession of popes. The exclusive Brethren had Darby and his lineage. The Recovery had WN, WL, and now TC. Before the recent quarantine many in the Far East were saying, "Nee, Lee, Chu, Nee, Lee, Chu" I'm not joking, I was told that by a brother who heard it directly from TC.

My point is simple: The LC/exclusive system must have a leader figure who gets all the glory and has all the authority. He is today's "Paul." There is no plurality, as in "elders" or "ministers." WL's appointment of "Blendeds," the so-called brother "We," only ensured that WL himself would still be "The Man" posthumously, and so far it has worked.

One reason I left the "local church" is because the continued aggravation of not being "local" finally got to me. The "local" church is a huge farce. My LC operated on remote control. So many decisions were made locally, via the prayer and fellowship of all the responsible brothers, only to be dissolved by one little comment from headquarters. That was so frustrating. Why should we pray and fellowship in the first place, just "tell us what to do! ... you're going to change it anyways." Often I think back to how many times we gathered to "pray and fellowship" how to carry out the latest "move of the Lord" originating, not with the Spirit, but at headquarters.

Yesterday in Ohio ... drums were just fine. Today in Ohio ... drums are real bad.

Directives from the "Command Center" have "replaced the Spirit." As awareness so aptly testified about Cleveland, it is the directives from "The Man" which have "replaced the Spirit."

awareness

10-24-2009, 01:01 PM

Didn't TC "raise us up?" Didn't TC "establish the GLA churches?" Isn't he is one with the Spirit. Doesn't the Spirit speak thru him?
...
many in the Far East were saying, "Nee, Lee, Chu, Nee, Lee, Chu" I'm not joking, I was told that by a brother who heard it directly from TC.

Ya know Ohio, it's easy to miss and over look. Second-Hand Spirit is tricky. It's slips in thru the back door of yer mind, unnoticed perchance, more often than is healthy.

Second-Hand Spirit (hereafter fittingly known as "SHS") robs from the Spirit, adds to it, takes away from it, and has been known to embellish & distort it.

Don't you think that we seek Second-Hand Spirit cuz we're weak on the First-Hand Spirit? When we have First-Hand Spirit we don't even notice Second-Hand Spirit -- it's not needed at all. It's a tinkling annoying sound out there in the distance somewhere.

So bro Ohio, I got a novel idea. And it gets me off the hook, and helps everyone that's wandering & wondering what to do from here.

Let's stick with First-Hand Spirit, and go from there. That's about the best advice I can give everyone : Stick with First-Hand Spirit.

My point is simple: The LC/exclusive system must have a leader figure who gets all the glory and has all the authority. He is today's "Paul." There is no plurality, as in "elders" or "ministers." WL's appointment of "Blendeds," the so-called brother "We," only ensured that WL himself would still be "The Man" posthumously, and so far it has worked.
Yeah, but it's no fun. Not like First-Hand Spirit is fun. It's something else. And whatever else it is, is not First-Hand Spirit. [Pweey, I spit it out. It leaves a bad taste]

Second-Handers (SHS) love their sheep pens. They prefer Second-hand Spirit, and that's where it is found ; in the sheep pens (as Hosepipe likes to go on and on about -- like a babbling prophet.)

Anyway, back to what it's all about : First-Hand Spirit. Why don't we just go with First-Hand in everything we do? Go where it goes, and otherwise bring it with us in every moment of our day.

That's the way to go...let me tell ya. First-Hand is great. The world looks like a better place with First-Hand Spirit. Everything is brighter, and more cheerful, and even the hurts don't hurt as much.

First-Hand Spirit is light. Law is heavy, Spirit is light. Are ya carrying around the weight of the world on yer shoulders? Is the load of condemning most of the world gettin' to ya? Are ya trying to change everything, and everyone? Try First-Hand Spirit. You'll like it. It's better than Prozac.

That sure takes a load off. Now I can leave ya in the best hands ever, by telling ya to seek the First-Hand Spirit. That's better than anything I can do fer ya anyway. I have a tendency to mess things up. Like all Second-Hand Spirit does eventually.

Chu'y poohy. He looks at his toilet paper the same as I. Who does he think he is anyway? The most he can be to me is Second-Hand Spirit, and whats that? Less then First-Hand Spirit for sure? Pweey, I spit it out, and tongue the bad taste out too.

One reason I left the "local church" is because the continued aggravation of not being "local" finally got to me. The "local" church is a huge farce. My LC operated on remote control. So many decisions were made locally, via the prayer and fellowship of all the responsible brothers, only to be dissolved by one little comment from headquarters. That was so frustrating. Why should we pray and fellowship in the first place, just "tell us what to do! ...

Poohy on that Second-Hand Spirit. Poohy, Poohy, Poohy. The truth is it is they that don't matter. We can walk away. And lose nothing ; but maybe some human connections that we've grown attached to, like pets that hang around.
Directives from the "Command Center" have "replaced the Spirit." As awareness so aptly testified about Cleveland, it is the directives from "The Man" which have "replaced the Spirit."

Glad ya caught on bro Ohio. Now go with First-Hand -- good ol' trusty First-Hand -- and all will be well. And you'll have lots to say about it, and much to share with others, which you should always remember becomes Second-Hand. Best to just point to First-Hand, whenever opportunity arises.

aron

10-24-2009, 05:26 PM

I remember Lee putting the kibosh on drums and tambourines back in the early 70's, when they broke out in Cleveland. That spoke loudly to me. Personally I don't care of the use of instruments or no instruments. I like the enjoyment in the Spirit, which can be found either way.

And in Cleveland I was really enjoying the Spirit. Great meetings. The kind you can't wait to get to. And the drums and tambourines added to it. It wasn't the drums per se, it was the release in the Spirit that mattered. And that was good, and all of it was good, the drums too.

Then Lee's shoe dropped. Next meeting wasn't so good. That's when we were told that Lee said "NO! NO!

During that meeting, I walked out, into the balcony that surrounded the building we were meeting in, on the second floor.

I was eager for another meeting in the spirit, and what I got was authority as thick as butter. It was a real downer, a definite Spirit killer.

There is an interesting testimony from brother Doug Krieger, from the Berkely area in the late '60s. They had a jug band, & drove around on the back of a flatbed truck and played music for all the hippies & freaks in the height of the counterculture Height/Ashbury movement. According to Doug, the Spirit was quite prevailing. All the thirsty hippies were crowding around. Then Lee got wind of it and said, "No jug bands".

awareness

10-24-2009, 07:41 PM

There is an interesting testimony from brother Doug Krieger, from the Berkely area in the late '60s. They had a jug band, & drove around on the back of a flatbed truck and played music for all the hippies & freaks in the height of the counterculture Height/Ashbury movement. According to Doug, the Spirit was quite prevailing. All the thirsty hippies were crowding around. Then Lee got wind of it and said, "No jug bands".

I made a #3 tub bass in Detroit, and we had a jug band for a brief time, until Cleveland. Then the kibosh.

I think what did it for the jug bands, drums, and tambourines, that was the last straw for Lee, was the Lord's table meeting in Cleveland. Now that was somethin' to see. And was loads of fun in the Spirit.

I'll describe it as much as I can remember. It started out with some lively energetic songs, with drums and tambourines ago'in. After a few songs, during the low period, someone shouted out, "We ain't religious," and ran up to the table in the center, where the bread and the wine sat, and turned the table upside down, and put the bread and wine on the underside of the table on the floor.

The meeting pretty much came loose at that point, and saints began to dance in the Spirit. Can't remember how it progressed but eventually we were all dancing in a train, passing the bread and the wine down the line. The wine cup had been abandoned, and the pitcher that was use to fill the cup was substituted. I remember seeing wine sloshing out of the pitcher as it was passed from one to another. I remember seeing this happen while a leading one, John Ingalls I think, was passing it.

So it wasn't just the jug bands, drums and tambourines that Lee put the kibosh on, it was the whole wild in the spirit thing he put a stop too.

In the end, if I had a choice between "wild in the Spirit" or "Witness Lee's authority," I'll take the wild in the spirit thank you.

Ohio

10-25-2009, 05:10 AM

I think what did it for the jug bands, drums, and tambourines, that was the last straw for Lee, was the Lord's table meeting in Cleveland. Now that was somethin' to see. And was loads of fun in the Spirit.

awareness, do you remember what year that was?

awareness

10-25-2009, 06:54 AM

awareness, do you remember what year that was?

I'd have to say 1972. We migrated in 1973, to Ft. Lauderdale. Could have been in 73 tho.

TLFisher

12-18-2009, 04:14 PM

OBW

12-18-2009, 05:54 PM

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all. I Corinthians 12:4-6

By this passage, it is very clear to many Howard Higashi had a ministry in music. Howard had a gift in composing and writing music. Through his music, many hearts were moved and many a spirit was touched. Based alone on the Long Beach Hymns, Howard Highashi had composed at least 66 hymns if not more.

TerryInteresting. I never knew who wrote what. I didn't even keep up with what was Lee's, although there were a couple that were clearly his and were there to cover some doctrinal point but never intended to be sung. (That being said, in Dallas we once did sing all umpteen verses of "Let Us Contemplate the Grapevine.")

But music is so important for many reasons. It provides expression beyond the words. It gives a way to make excellent thoughts stick in the mind and play through during the day. It is an art form that I will never have. I don't have a poetic bone in my body, and while I am quite musical, any three or four notes sounds like a song I already know that I can't get out of my head so I can write a new tune.

aron

12-19-2009, 11:45 AM

Howard had a gift in composing and writing music. Through his music, many hearts were moved and many a spirit was touched. Based alone on the Long Beach Hymns, Howard Highashi had composed at least 66 hymns if not more.

I remember hearing a song from Long Beach. I was in a room doing something, and the boom box was playing a cassette tape. It started like this:

"Thank You Lord, You died for me

You took my place upon the tree

All my sins were laid on Thee

You bore them all away"

I froze. I felt like I'd been shot. I literally couldn't move. I hardly dared breathe. It felt like God was there, singing to me about Jesus the Nazarene.

I walked over to the cassette player, and listened intently to each word. The song was so well done, simple and elegant. It was as good as anything by Wesley or Luther or any of the greats of antiquity.

I never forgot that moment. What a gift of composition that person had! I was greatly affected.

YP0534

12-19-2009, 03:52 PM

Howard taught me a couple of them back around 1986.

There was a round based upon 2 Cor. 13: 14 and Rev. 22:1.

It was always one of my favorites but it required explanation how to do it and some people don't value the singing enough to make it worth the effort.

I think I remember singing it at a College Station conference, though.

TLFisher

12-19-2009, 06:26 PM

YP0534

12-20-2009, 04:56 AM

Amazing. One of the songs I've come to appreciate is Good Samaritan.

terry

I don't know that one.

The other one was this one:

I love you, Lord Jesus.
I love you, Lord, precious One.
No other One
could compare to you.
Jesus, Lord, Jesus,
Jesus, Lord, precious One,
Nothing compares to you.

I remember him playing it on my guitar in my dorm room with his eyes lightly closed and a big warm smile.

He just really loved the Lord.

TLFisher

05-10-2010, 12:14 PM

I read the following content from a letter to the Blended co-workers from Titus Chu.
http://www.jesusloversincleveland.org/English/onepublication/TitusResponseToBlendedCoworkersJuly06.pdf

"What concerns me the most is your understanding regarding the local church. In 2004 Brother Ron Kangas wrote to Brother Ron Brubacher in London, Canada, an email in which he accused him of embracing “the notion of a local Body,” saying: “It seems you have embraced the notion of a local Body implying that the body, like the church, is both one “universal” and many “local.” Is this a correct definition of your doctrine? Do you believe that just as there are many local churches there are many local bodies? The idea of the local body as distinct from the truth that a local church is a local expression of the body of Christ lead to such a conclusion.”

It seems that Brother Ron Kangas rejects the idea that there is a local aspect of the Body of Christ. Yet Brother Lee clearly taught that the Church as the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12 is “both universal and local.” (W. Lee, Life Study of 1 Corinithians) Brother Lee’s terse statement surely implies the Body has both universal and local aspects. Moreover, Brother Nee strongly emphasized that the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians refers to the believers in Corinth, the local church there. (W. Nee, Further Talks on the Church-life) First Corinthians 12:27 says, “You (the believers in Corinth) are Christ’s Body.” [Note the absence of the definite article in the Greek.] We definitely “embrace the notion” that the Body of Christ is a “two-fold divine truth” revealed in the Bible, as taught by Brothers Nee and Lee, having both universal and local aspects. Moreover, we question whether the statement “local aspect of Christ’s Body” expressed in 1 Cor. 12:27 is adequately encompassed in the phrase: “a local church is a local expression of the body of Christ.” The apostle Paul did not say that. He said in 1 Corinthians 12:27, “You (the believers in Corinth) are Christ’s body.” Since this is a “two-fold” divine truth, the statement that there is a local aspect of the body is not inconsistent with the propositions that the universal Body of Christ is expressed by many local churches and that all the local churches are the expressions of the Body of Christ. We firmly declare that there are many local churches but one Body, as all the local churches are the expression of the one Body.

However, it seems that you brothers diminish the “local aspect” of the Body (even as you diminish the local church) in order to emphasize the universal aspect of the Body. You denounce any who talk about the local aspect of the Body as “embracing the notion of a local Body” (as Ron Kangas has done in his attack on the elders of the church in London, Canada). Such a statement risks denying the “local aspect of the Body,” and ignores the importance which Brother Nee gave it. Might not brother David Wang of London, and others who make similar points, be presenting the same balanced view of both the universal and local aspects of the Body, as was presented by Brother Nee?

I am surprised at the statement made by Brother Ron Kangas. How could he cut off a verse (1 Cor. 12:27) from the Bible? And if Brother Ron does not even see the sense expressed by Brother Nee in which all the local churches are the Body of Christ, how can he lead all the local churches? No wonder you brothers keep on de-emphasizing the local church by quoting what Brother Lee once spoke, that the local churches are merely the procedure. Dear brothers, don’t you all realize that Christ and the local churches are the basic commitment revealed to us by our dear respected brothers Nee and Lee. We should all clearly know that the universal Body of Christ is expressed by many local churches. All the local churches are the expressions of the Body of Christ. And not only so, but there is a sense in which a local church is Christ’s Body (1 Cor. 12:27). We firmly declare that there are many local churches but One Body, as all the local churches are the expression of the one Body. Dear brothers, I do not understand how Ron can even disagree with the Bible itself. If the apostle Paul wrote to the church in Corinth that, “you are the Body of Christ,” for sure the church in Corinth – a local church – is the body of Christ. Also, I am often grieved at your spirit when you speak that the local church is merely a procedure – a spirit of belittling the local church. My dear brothers, don’t you know the procedure decides the outcome, just as eating is a procedure and why we all pay attention to eating healthily. The local churches are a procedure. When the New Jerusalem appears, there will be no local churches. But the New Jerusalem can only come when the local churches are healthy – the Spirit is able to lead each church, Christ becomes the content of the church life, the Bible becomes the unique standard in their belief and practice, and the local church takes the stand which is inclusive to all the saints in that locality. Dear brothers, I am concerned about your clarity on this matter.

Moreover, I am concerned that you brothers may not be clear about the universal aspect of the Body either. Brother Minoru Chen has said that “the recovery equals the Body.” In addition, brother Ron Kangas referred to the (so-called) “seven feasts” as times when the Lord speaks “to the entire Body.” Yet, if the Body of Christ is universal, including all believers in time and space, how can you brothers declare that “the recovery equals the Body,” and how could an LSM gathering “speak to the entire Body”? If this is indeed “a body,” what kind of “body” is it? A “global LSM body”? Are you brothers clear about the truth concerning “the Body,” a topic you’ve repeatedly emphasized for the past nine years? Moreover, during the LSM Summer Training which has just ended, brother Ron Kangas conveyed the idea that believers can be in the local church, yet not be in the Body. Brothers, what kind of teaching is this? Are you brothers seeking to produce a two-tier system where some saints are “merely in the local church” and others (the elite) are in the Body? Where is this thought in the Bible? Where is this concept in the teaching of Brothers Nee and Lee? Do you brothers remember the illustration given by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, even if a member says it is not of the body because it is not a particular member, it is still a member?"

(Pages 11-13 Titus Chu’s Response to Blended Co-Workers July 22,2006)

Comments?

Terry

awareness

05-10-2010, 12:27 PM

I read the following content from a letter to the Blended co-workers from Titus Chu.
http://www.jesusloversincleveland.org/English/onepublication/TitusResponseToBlendedCoworkersJuly06.pdf

Comments?Clearly, The Blendeds speak with forked tongue and from two sides of their mouth....

Their doctrines don't matter so much anyway, as they are into authority.

Suannehill

10-04-2010, 07:55 PM

Clearly, The Blendeds speak with forked tongue and from two sides of their mouth....

Their doctrines don't matter so much anyway, as they are into authority.

BB = Bloviating Brothers

Suannehill

12-30-2010, 11:09 AM

An obituary in the local newspaper states that this sister belonged to the Local Church since 1955...SAY WHAT???????

...and of course ALL donations go to the Local Church...sigh...

Good thing they brought in those folks from Calif. to correct the history here!

UntoHim

12-31-2010, 12:09 PM

Suannehill

12-31-2010, 03:10 PM

They actually put a sister in the local paper's obituary? I thought only Witness Lee was worthy of that. Of course since she was in the Local Church before there was a Local Church(1955:veryconfused:) there I guess she's a special case:D

LOL
but...
Well... she was a very good sister, who got stirred up by outsiders...
heartbreaking mess...

Unregistered

10-17-2011, 08:28 AM

Unregistered

10-18-2011, 07:23 AM

In the January 2011 edition of "Fellowship Journal" published by Titus Chu's ministry they is an article about the history of the LC in Ohio. It seems to me it is nothing but an infomercial for Titus Chu no different than what we would expect from the Blended Brothers in their promotion of Witness Lee. And like the Witness Lee promotions the article neglects to point out anything "negative" about Titus Chu and his ill-treatment of coworkers through the years. Personally I find such "histories" to be shoddy and disingenuous.

Link to publication: http://ministrymessages.org/fj-jan-2011/

I'm actually a different unregistered. Anyhow, it all sounds so wonderful, doesn't it. Unregistered alpha, you make good point about it being an infomercial for Titus Chu, there was some serious gushing going on there. If only the saints could gush about our Lord in that way after conferences & trainings instead of: "Titus said..." or "I like what Titus brought out..." or the classic "I really appreciated what Titus shared about..."

Suannehill

10-20-2011, 06:51 AM

...And like the Witness Lee promotions the article neglects to point out anything "negative" about Titus Chu and his ill-treatment of coworkers through the years. Personally I find such "histories" to be shoddy and disingenuous.

Link to publication: http://ministrymessages.org/fj-jan-2011/

Did you really expect something different???

HOWEVER...

My own works for the the Lord cannot even begin to compare to his. Only my failures stack as high as his good works.

I DID go and sit in the back of a meeting and my disappointment cannot be measured. A waste of time and gasoline.

Ohio

10-20-2011, 08:07 AM

In the January 2011 edition of "Fellowship Journal" published by Titus Chu's ministry they is an article about the history of the LC in Ohio. It seems to me it is nothing but an infomercial for Titus Chu no different than what we would expect from the Blended Brothers in their promotion of Witness Lee. And like the Witness Lee promotions the article neglects to point out anything "negative" about Titus Chu and his ill-treatment of coworkers through the years. Personally I find such "histories" to be shoddy and disingenuous.

I could have written this post too.

Seems like "Unregistered" has a similar pedigree as I. Personally, I have migrated with others to start two LC's in the GLA, only to watch both of them nearly destroyed by TC manipulations and abuses. For many years, after TC abuses created serious tensions, I was forced to choose between local elders and TC in Cleveland. How many precious brothers have departed from the GLA for no other reason than they "had a problem with TC?" These were just "coded words" to explain brothers who had left after being abused and publicly shamed by TC.

Ohio

10-20-2011, 08:37 AM

I'm actually a different unregistered. Anyhow, it all sounds so wonderful, doesn't it. Unregistered alpha, you make good point about it being an infomercial for Titus Chu, there was some serious gushing going on there. If only the saints could gush about our Lord in that way after conferences & trainings instead of: "Titus said..." or "I like what Titus brought out..." or the classic "I really appreciated what Titus shared about..."
The referenced Fellowship Journal had an article from the recent Elders/Workers Conference, and this segment is what was shared by TC concerning Laodicea --

What is Laodicea? When the brothers overly try to love one another, there is the danger that the leaders will allow the opinions of the saints to prevail over the Spirit as to how the church life is practiced. One saint can influence the leading of a church simply by having an opinion and then insisting upon it. When that happens, the Spirit can no longer lead.This is the most absurd interpretation I have ever heard. What about "the opinions of the leaders prevailing over the Spirit?" This interpretation is based upon WL's teaching that the word "Laodicea" is based upon the "opinion of the people."

Laodicea is actually produced by the proud and arrogant presumption by the leadership that what we got is better than all other Christians. Further to this is the condemnation passed to the rest of the body of Christ by the ministry. Laodicea has nothing to do with the saints loving each other too much. That is just ridiculous. The real problem has its roots in the ministry. But TC never would acknowledge that, instead he uses the age-old WL strategy of blaming the saints for the failed works of evil workers.

Then, after the message is given, his loyal lackeys must stand up and pay the homage of: "Titus said..." or "I like what Titus brought out..." or the classic "I really appreciated what Titus shared about...," or else face a rebuke at the next gathering.

So it's no wonder that the LC church history tends to repeat itself! Their leaders never accept any responsibility for their failures!

Cal

10-20-2011, 08:57 AM

What is Laodicea? When the brothers overly try to love one another,

Just when you think it can't get any weirder....

UntoHim

10-20-2011, 09:36 AM

Come on Igzy, haven't you ever read that verse: "by this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another...but not too much love"

Cal

10-20-2011, 09:45 AM

When the LRC says they have teachings you just won't get anywhere else, well, I guess this proves it.

UntoHim

10-20-2011, 10:02 AM

What is Laodicea? When the brothers overly try to love one another, there is the danger that the leaders will allow the opinions of the saints to prevail over the Spirit as to how the church life is practiced. One saint can influence the leading of a church simply by having an opinion and then insisting upon it. When that happens, the Spirit can no longer lead.

This is the kind of nonsense you get from people who have insulated and isolated themselves from the balance that comes from the Body of Christ. It's also the kind of talk that can get your group labeled as a cult.

Besides, if leaders are so weak that one person's "opinion" is that big of a deal then they should not be leaders.

Ohio

10-20-2011, 10:13 AM

When the LRC says they have teachings you just won't get anywhere else, well, I guess this proves it.

What is so disturbing to me is that these kinds of rotten teachings are used by LC leadership to coverup their own evil works, and at the same time blame the saints for something the Lord has frankly commanded them to do. Where is the scriptural precedence for this teaching? The results, however, are just as planned -- it is safer to love the ministry, than the brother or sister next to you. Loving your own wife and kids is somewhat risky, but loving TC is always "safe."

Couple this with all the gaga's over TC in the "history class," and the impact is overwhelming. I know, I was there for years. Now it seems even worse than before, since those who might not entirely agree (John Myer, Chuck Debelak, and others) have vanished from the scene.

Wonder what Speaker's Corner and other GLA posters are thinking?

OBW

10-20-2011, 11:30 AM

I really miss SpeakersCorner.

Ohio

10-20-2011, 12:26 PM

This is the kind of nonsense you get from people who have insulated and isolated themselves from the balance that comes from the Body of Christ. It's also the kind of talk that can get your group labeled as a cult.Besides, if leaders are so weak that one person's "opinion" is that big of a deal then they should not be leaders.It all depends what the "opinion" is, doesn't it?

If the "opinion" exposes leadership unrighteousness and abuse, then the leaders have cause to be concerned, don't they?

This is where LC leadership plays word games with the flock of God. They take certain serious concerns among the saints and then call them "opinions." Then they begin to tell the saints how dangerous it is to be an opinionated person, giving examples from the Bible like those "gossips and busybodies, going house to house, speaking things they ought not." This is manipulative and deceitful.

TLFisher

10-21-2011, 12:51 PM

This is the most absurd interpretation I have ever heard. What about "the opinions of the leaders prevailing over the Spirit?" This interpretation is based upon WL's teaching that the word "Laodicea" is based upon the "opinion of the people."

Then, after the message is given, his loyal lackeys must stand up and pay the homage of: "Titus said..." or "I like what Titus brought out..." or the classic "I really appreciated what Titus shared about...," or else face a rebuke at the next gathering.

First part of your quoted post:
In general how can a brother speak such a word? Just because a brother or sister is not in some teaching or minister capacity, they're still members of the Body. As members of the Body, they have direct access to the Father just as any leading brother does. In a roundabout way Ohio, my suggestion is the "opinion of the people" could very well be less of an opinion, but the pulse of the Body.
Why those in leadership past and present reject such a feeling, it is because those in leadership feel they alone know "the feeling of the Body". Leadership want to take a certain direction, and when the congregation are resistant to the direction, it's the congregation's shortcomings.

Second part of your quoted post:
All I can say is how disappointing. I realize there is a fine line between appreciating a brother's speaking and uplifting a brother. What you've paraphrased Ohio, you can change the brother's name but the tone is always the same inflection in lifiting up a brother up. Apart from Titus, you could insert Witness Lee or any of the blended brothers, and the result is the same. Problem I see is a culture exists where the primary speaker needs to be exalted. The unregistered poster described it accurately with the word "gush". In the past whenever saints would return from a training or conference, gush is the decriptive word in their uplifiting of the primary speaker. My point is when you gush over a brother like this, you have redirected the focus from Christ to the speaking brother.
How hard is it to speak to the content delivered instead of saying, "Titus said" or "Ron said"?

Ohio

10-21-2011, 01:04 PM

First part of your quoted post:
In general how can a brother speak such a word? Just because a brother or sister is not in some teaching or minister capacity, they're still members of the Body. As members of the Body, they have direct access to the Father just as any leading brother does. In a roundabout way Ohio, my suggestion is the "opinion of the people" could very well be less of an opinion, but the pulse of the Body.

Why those in leadership past and present reject such a feeling, it is because those in leadership feel they alone know "the feeling of the Body". Leadership want to take a certain direction, and when the congregation are resistant to the direction, it's the congregation's shortcomings.

Terry, you hit the home run! (Go Rangers!)

How in the world could LSM know "the feeling of the Body" when the body of Christ is not allowed to express an opinion?

Just another hypocrisy flowing out from the cesspool in Anaheim ...

UntoHim

10-21-2011, 01:06 PM

I really miss SpeakersCorner.
I second that. :iagree:
Oh, Speaker, where art thou?

Ohio

10-21-2011, 01:38 PM

I second that. :iagree:
Oh, Speaker, where art thou?

I miss ZNPaaneah. His posts on the Shroud of Turin, as proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, were some of the most fascinating things I have ever read.

I can't figure out why that thread was restructured and then closed down.

UntoHim

10-21-2011, 01:52 PM

Ohio

10-21-2011, 02:04 PM

That group of off topic (way off topic) posts were split off the original thread (forgot which one) for what should be obvious reasons.
As far as the thread being closed, I assume it was closed by ZNP himself. A thread can be closed by the thread starter and by any administrator of course, but I don't remember closing the thread.

I never saw it as off-topic.

If we cling to a narrow definition, perhaps none of my posts would pass muster with the Inglourious Topiq Natzi.

Especially not this one.

UntoHim

10-23-2011, 08:38 PM

You never saw WHAT as off topic? The part where someone said...

The govt recently haggled over 15 million and as a result stopped collecting 330 million in taxes while on vacation.
or was it
Isn't that why they downgraded our credit rating?
or was it
As if we could trust S & P, who overrated the banks that crashed our economy. The ratings companies are complicit to the crash. They're in on it. Made money off of it. Why should anything they say or rate be taken seriously?
or was it
The problem is that there are insufficient people in the political arena that are willing to be otherwise and tolerate the c#@p they have to go through to get the "job" of serving us. So we get "hirelings."
or was it
I'm reminded of those old spy movies where someone would say (french accent) "One drop of thees will wipe out all of Pairee!"
or was it
Yes, but expressed in parts per billion (ppb). Quantities far below what would be required to do damage to the human body.
or was it
True, but what about breast milk? Generally toxicity levels for babies is much lower than for adults. Also, toxins can often become concentrated within the body since they don't digest.
or was it
Because of growing concerns over toxic levels of contamination in the world's food supplies, my wife and I have decided to eliminate all food from our diet.
or was it
The coolest part about that is all the nifty drug interactions, you're getting anti-depressants the same time you're sipping blood thinners; muscle relaxants paired up with viagara...the list goes on and on...
or was it
Actually in a very important case of water poisoning they discovered that the toxicity levels should not be based on drinking the water. The poison in this case was a volatile chemical that evaporated first in hot water. When the residents took hot showers they were literally gassing themselves.
or was it
The standard faucet aerator was designed specifically to out-gas Chlorines in the drinking water. The same thing happens with your shower valve, except now you are breathing that stuff. Your shower head needs a filter.
or was it
Can you document this? I googled it and couldn't find anything about it.
or was it
Sure there is physical evidence. According to the record there was a shroud and a head wrap known as the Sudarium. The Catholic church allegedly has both artifacts. The head wrap is generally accepted to be much better documented.
or was it
With the shroud of Turin I am pretty sure that all possibilities have been considered. However, the forensic evidence, to my mind is very strong that this in fact was a shroud that wrapped a body that was both scourged and crucified, that this even took place at the time of Jesus death, and it took place in the months of March or April, and that this Body was buried in a tomb in Jerusalem.
Please reply ASAP, the Inglourious Topiq Natzi is waiting with bated breath.

Ohio

10-24-2011, 07:32 AM

You never saw WHAT as off topic? The part where someone said...

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

or was it

Very funny. :lol:

What I really meant to say was if the topics were of interest to me then they are not, by definition, off topic. ;)

TLFisher

11-08-2011, 04:31 PM

Ohio

11-08-2011, 06:17 PM

Don't know which thread this topic is best suited for, but since Pennsylvannia is in the midwest, any thoughts on the Penn State football program coverup compared to that of LSM and Phillip Lee? I do think there are valid comparisons.
One question that has been raised on talk raido, is whatever happened to the moral compass?

After watching Coach Tressel and the Buckeyes crash, I didn't think any college program could match their demise, but who could have imagined this.

Sad to see Joe Pa go this way. He really was the "King" of Happy Valley. I know people in State College, and they all said that Joe Pa was bigger than life, and could "get away with murder." Now it's all over.

TLFisher

11-08-2011, 06:41 PM

After watching Coach Tressel and the Buckeyes crash, I didn't think any college program could match their demise, but who could have imagined this.

Sad to see Joe Pa go this way. He really was the "King" of Happy Valley. I know people in State College, and they all said that Joe Pa was bigger than life, and could "get away with murder." Now it's all over.

Same here. Joe Pa is to Penn State what Bear Bryant is to my brother's alma mater Alabama. Paul, if you're reading this I'm still smarting over last weekends defeat to LSU.
At least here on the radio, what I've been hearing is JoePa is cleared of any legal responsibility, but because of what he knew, there was and still is moral accountability. This ties into the late 80's turmoil just as there are those who bear moral accountability for what they knew about PL.
Another comparison is the late 80's turmoil happened roughly 20 years ago and when the coverup began at Penn State, well that's roughly 9 years ago. Putting this into perspective, I have not heard nor read the media say "let's keep the past in the past". Or "that's ancient history". That's what I've heard from those who defend the LSM institution.
As I'm putting this into perspective, the "world" seems to have a higher standard of responsibility and accountability than what apparently exists among LSM leadership. My comment is general in nature and is based upon actions through speaking lacking any forthrightness.

Ohio

11-08-2011, 07:03 PM

Same here. Joe Pa is to Penn State what Bear Bryant is to my brother's alma mater Alabama. Paul, if you're reading this I'm still smarting over last weekends defeat to LSU.
At least here on the radio, what I've been hearing is JoePa is cleared of any legal responsibility, but because of what he knew, there was and still is moral accountability. This ties into the late 80's turmoil just as there are those who bear moral accountability for what they knew about PL.
Another comparison is the late 80's turmoil happened roughly 20 years ago and when the coverup began at Penn State, well that's roughly 9 years ago. Putting this into perspective, I have not heard nor read the media say "let's keep the past in the past". Or "that's ancient history". That's what I've heard from those who defend the LSM institution.
As I'm putting this into perspective, the "world" seems to have a higher standard of responsibility and accountability than what apparently exists among LSM leadership. My comment is general in nature and is based upon actions through speaking lacking any forthrightness.

For me, the biggest difference is not the crimes committed, but how WL and boys smeared the reputations of those who voiced their conscience.

It is ones like TC, who maintained his silence while knowing better, who most resembles Joe Pa.

TLFisher

11-08-2011, 07:28 PM

It is ones like TC, who maintained his silence while knowing better, who most resembles Joe Pa.

The media apparently isn't giving JoePa a free pass. Their rhetorical questions have been about JoePa is when did JoePa ever go back to his superior to find out if anything was going to be done about it. It's as if he brought it up once and if nothing was going to be done about it, JoePa was not about to make it an issue. Just as in the late 80's brothers were not going to make an issue that certain other brothers had to do in good conscience.
For all we know brother's like TC have repented for their silence when something should have been said. Same thing can be said for each one of us who eventually repented when we should have been those who said "this far and no further". I realize God is sovereign and it's a lesson I needed to learn.
It's a lesson of fearing God much much more than fearing man.

Unregistered

11-08-2011, 07:30 PM

For me, the biggest difference is not the crimes committed, but how WL and boys smeared the reputations of those who voiced their conscience.

It is ones like TC, who maintained his silence while knowing better, who most resembles Joe Pa.

Witness Lee squandered the good faith and good will he had among many followers. They trusted him to do the right thing regarding his son and they trusted people like Titus Chu and others to speak out if Lee didn't do the right thing. In the end they were their own benchmark and God's word and His people were trampled on by their actions and lack thereof.

Maybe if that sister filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against Philip Lee that would have gotten his father's attention because that is a "language" he understood quite well!

OBW

11-09-2011, 05:37 AM

For all we know brother's like TC have repented for their silence when something should have been said.My concern is that true repentance for "silence when something should have been said" needs to be made out loud to the people to whom the silence mattered. The fact that we are not hearing from so many of these, like TC, indicates to me that even if they have reconsidered their position or their silence, they have not truly repented. Their "sin" was a trespass against others and should be repented of to those others. Repentance to God is needed. But it is not over until you repent to those against whom your trespass was made.

Ohio

11-09-2011, 06:11 AM

My concern is that true repentance for "silence when something should have been said" needs to be made out loud to the people to whom the silence mattered. The fact that we are not hearing from so many of these, like TC, indicates to me that even if they have reconsidered their position or their silence, they have not truly repented. Their "sin" was a trespass against others and should be repented of to those others. Repentance to God is needed. But it is not over until you repent to those against whom your trespass was made.

I was once of a group mindset in the GLA that TC was the antithesis of backbiting politics simply because he was so critical face-to-face with those he worked with. Most thought that his kind of honesty was a desirable alternative to the more popular man-pleasing style of "oneness" in the Recovery.

When it came to confronting WL, his profligate sons, and those lackey blendeds, however, and making known how innocent young ones had been hurt by LSM, then the politics of silence took over. When expedient, TC was silent, and when expedient, TC was outspoken and overly candid. Both are also characteristic of politicians. Thank the Lord that ones like John So, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Albert Zehr, Godfred, Al Knoch were not playing politics. They suffered for their convictions, willing to lay it all on the altar for His interests.

There is inherent danger in any long-tenured position of power. Doesn't power corrupt? Once power is obtained, self-preservation of that power becomes prominent. This is why I like term limits for politicians, but I know that will never happen. Imagine those in power deciding to place limits on their own power?

Ohio

11-09-2011, 06:54 AM

OBW

11-09-2011, 12:09 PM

I There is inherent danger in any long-tenured position of power. Doesn't power corrupt?I'm less prone to simple factoids like "power corrupts — absolute poser corrupts absolutely." There are plenty of examples where it is true. It is like the ring of power that compels you — even eats at you such that you can get a smile on your face for retrieving it while you are falling into a sea of lava. But the metaphor is incomplete because it presumed that it was so compelling that no one, not even Frodo, could resist in the end.

I believe that you can find many who are not corrupted by power. They are people who understand the source of what little power they actually have — whether earthly, political, organizational, etc.

So I would phrase it this way: "Power can corrupt. And absolute power can corrupt absolutely. But you can't just presume corruption because you see power." Missing the last point is too often the result of viewing too many things as simple dichotomies when the possibilities are limitless.

But when the source of your power is a problem itself, then the power it wields is almost sure to be a problem as well. A system of deputy authority headed by an oracle of God is begging for abuse. It imbues the practitioner with a presumption of correctness and authority that is not supported by the tenets it claims to administer.

TLFisher

11-09-2011, 12:19 PM

Maybe if that sister filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against Philip Lee that would have gotten his father's attention because that is a "language" he understood quite well!

That would have been the logical approach to take. Of course in the recovery it is known and it has been spoken "we don't make an issue of matters, persons, or things." Which is why improprieties are never revealed except through alleged rumors.

Another Penn State/LSM comparison-contrast.

Penn State: It was a graduate assistant who witnessed and brought the issue to JoePa's attention. To date this graduate assistant's witness has not been disputed.

LSM:
It was the account of several brothers who brought forth what they witnessed. These two brothers have had their eyewitness disputed as rumors.

TLFisher

11-09-2011, 12:27 PM

I heard from many sources that TC had "changed" in the wake of the Blended attacks and subsequent quarantine back in 2002 thru 2007. I believed it at first. I hoped it was true.

I think the description change is relative. TC may have changed towards those brothers he regarded as peers. From the outside looking in, TC may not have changed regarding his work.
No one has specifcally answered this question. Several years prior to Titus' quarantined, why did the bledning brothers ask Titus not to visit Ghana? Is it related our late brother Ransford who was regarded as persona non grata? As Ransford was the leading brother for the former LSM-affiliated Church in Accra?
Not knowing, that's been my speculation.
Otherwise knowing Titus was active in Uganda, why not say please don't work in Africa, cooperate with the brothers regarding the work in Africa?

Ohio

11-09-2011, 07:50 PM

Maybe if that sister filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against Philip Lee that would have gotten his father's attention because that is a "language" he understood quite well!

There was more than one sister who was molested, and one of the sisters was from the Cleveland area.

People should look at the situation with Joe Paterno at Penn State in order to determine the consequences of just "keeping silent."

Unregistered a

11-10-2011, 09:12 AM

Another Penn State/LSM comparison-contrast.

Penn State: It was a graduate assistant who witnessed and brought the issue to JoePa's attention. To date this graduate assistant's witness has not been disputed.

LSM:
It was the account of several brothers who brought forth what they witnessed. These two brothers have had their eyewitness disputed as rumors.

Another Penn State/LSM comparison-contrast.

The graduate assistant who witnessed the incident and reported it was subsequently promoted rather quickly and has been on the coaching staff ever since. There is a lot of discussion as to whether this was in exchange for his silence.

Those that stood against PL were not promoted, unless you want to say that the promotion of RG, BP and KR was similar.

TLFisher

11-10-2011, 01:42 PM

Another Penn State/LSM comparison-contrast.

The graduate assistant who witnessed the incident and reported it was subsequently promoted rather quickly and has been on the coaching staff ever since. There is a lot of discussion as to whether this was in exchange for his silence.

Those that stood against PL were not promoted, unless you want to say that the promotion of RG, BP and KR was similar.

I would add listening to a radio program last night, the host raised the same points and added, how could the grad-assistant come to work each day and have to deal with the sexual predator he witnessed? How come he never asked why is he still working?

Yes in the local churches, the promotions were similar. I don't know about KR, but obviously RG and BP were rewarded for their silence about PL. They knew. Just read Speaking the Truth in Love. Ray and Phillip admitted as much to John and Ken. How many others knew? DT-Long Beach, MC, DT-Fullerton, etc. The coverup was widely effective that those that remain in the local churches probably regard the purported events as rumors.

Unregistered

11-11-2011, 06:12 AM

I would add listening to a radio program last night, the host raised the same points and added, how could the grad-assistant come to work each day and have to deal with the sexual predator he witnessed? How come he never asked why is he still working?

Yes in the local churches, the promotions were similar. I don't know about KR, but obviously RG and BP were rewarded for their silence about PL. They knew. Just read Speaking the Truth in Love. Ray and Phillip admitted as much to John and Ken. How many others knew? DT-Long Beach, MC, DT-Fullerton, etc. The coverup was widely effective that those that remain in the local churches probably regard the purported events as rumors.

There are other comparisons as well. I heard that the Sandusky issue was well known among coaches nationwide. Similar to everything about LSM being broadcast on this and other forums.

However, if the latest story about this Penn State horror is true then there is a big contrast between the world and the LRC. The LRC will really look like a bunch of saints by comparison.

Ohio

11-12-2011, 07:14 AM

There are other comparisons as well. I heard that the Sandusky issue was well known among coaches nationwide. Similar to everything about LSM being broadcast on this and other forums.

However, if the latest story about this Penn State horror is true then there is a big contrast between the world and the LRC. The LRC will really look like a bunch of saints by comparison.

The latest bizzarro in the whole Nittany Nightmare is that the county prosecutor for the area disappeared after the early incidents became known, and he has never been found. His computer was found in some big river sans hard drive.

Unregistered

11-12-2011, 08:57 AM

The latest bizzarro in the whole Nittany Nightmare is that the county prosecutor for the area disappeared after the early incidents became known, and he has never been found. His computer was found in some big river sans hard drive.

Hopefully they will get to the bottom of this because it appears that it goes much deeper than Sandusky.

Ohio

11-13-2011, 07:28 AM

Hopefully they will get to the bottom of this because it appears that it goes much deeper than Sandusky.

Perhaps the hardest thing in life to reconcile is the betrayal of trust, especially those who are so well respected, and have won your own trust over time, and have become close personally. Sandusky was, by all counts, a father figure to many kids who lacked one. In like manner, LSM had the total respect from a whole generation of young people. Many of us viewed WL and LSM as the closest thing to God and godliness on this whole earth.

The Bible records that when the Lord reclined at table for the last supper (forget the artist renderings we often see) it was John to His front and Judas to His rear. I believe He was closest to these two, with Judas acting as His personal valet, of sorts. That is why that betrayal was so painful to the Lord and fulfilled Psalms 41.9, "My own close friend, whom I trusted, who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me."

It's hard for the human psychology to understand how ones who have done so much good for us can also be guilty of doing evil. It's better when bad people look the devil, than when they look and act like angels.

Unregistered

11-14-2011, 08:26 PM

Perhaps the hardest thing in life to reconcile is the betrayal of trust, especially those who are so well respected, and have won your own trust over time, and have become close personally. Sandusky was, by all counts, a father figure to many kids who lacked one. In like manner, LSM had the total respect from a whole generation of young people. Many of us viewed WL and LSM as the closest thing to God and godliness on this whole earth.

The Bible records that when the Lord reclined at table for the last supper (forget the artist renderings we often see) it was John to His front and Judas to His rear. I believe He was closest to these two, with Judas acting as His personal valet, of sorts. That is why that betrayal was so painful to the Lord and fulfilled Psalms 41.9, "My own close friend, whom I trusted, who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me."

It's hard for the human psychology to understand how ones who have done so much good for us can also be guilty of doing evil. It's better when bad people look the devil, than when they look and act like angels.

I just listened to an interview Sandusky gave in '99 explaining that he was retiring in order to devote his time to helping young kids with his charity. Since it is pretty well established that he was forced to retire as a result of being caught in '98 I am not buying the idea that the people who allowed Sandusky to continue working with children in the guise of doing charity work were "good" people or those doing "good" work. Forcing him to retire was all about self protection, allowing him to continue as he did, unimpeded, is truly a horrific and cowardly act by all who knew what he had done and had the power to put a stop to it.

Ohio

11-16-2011, 09:34 AM

I just listened to an interview Sandusky gave in '99 explaining that he was retiring in order to devote his time to helping young kids with his charity. Since it is pretty well established that he was forced to retire as a result of being caught in '98 I am not buying the idea that the people who allowed Sandusky to continue working with children in the guise of doing charity work were "good" people or those doing "good" work. Forcing him to retire was all about self protection, allowing him to continue as he did, unimpeded, is truly a horrific and cowardly act by all who knew what he had done and had the power to put a stop to it.

Can't agree more, that's why it is so egregious when people in power coverup the crimes of others.

Right now even the new PA governor, a former prosecutor and attorney general, who replaced that casino-friendly, liberal "what-what" former governor, is involved. Why would Joe Pa place his home in his wife's name just weeks before the grand jury report came out? Why would the former district attorney disappear, never to be found, while investigating the Penn State scandal? There's lots of nasty critters and snakes hiding out under those rocks in Happy Valley! The time has finally come to turn these rocks over!

When I first apprehended the incredible fall from grace occurring at Penn State, nearby the home of many an in-law of mine, I had to consider if somehow God was involved. Did the lid blow off the coverup because our God truly is righteous and just, caring for orphans and widows? Did the mighty fall from grace because our God truly is holy and jealous, not allowing human idols to steal His Son's glory in the hearts of His many lost sheep?

Is the same happening to LSM? I have witnessed brothers (like Ed Marks) glorying and extolling all the wonders of the man WL well beyond the praises due to His Firstborn Son. For decades LSM leadership has been hiding and spinning their unrighteousness in order to maintain some pristine image of godliness. They love the form, yet deny the reality. They have placed their own slimy mud on the faces of godly men (like John Ingalls) in order to preserve a false image of ministry cleanliness. They called it "quarantining the leprous rebels" then they told us not to check it out or we might "touch death."

Today the Nittany Lion Nation faces the same heart-wrenching quandary as many of us former LC members. For decades we held WL in such high regard. We were convinced he was more than a minister, he was more than special to both God and man. We believed his standards of excellence were impeccable. WL was the recovery, and the recovery was WL! We were convinced that his ministry had only brought glory to His holy name and had served the children of God richly.

Then we learned the truth. Lots of what we were told was simply hype. What was hiding under all those "rocks" at LSM. Could they be overturned and face the shining light of the sun? Like Nittany Lion Nation, the Recovery "Nation" has to decide who and what to believe. Because leaders and "responsible" people will never admit to the actual truth, the rest of us are forced to take sides. No wonder things get a little contentious. Occasionally even this forum needs a little "pepper spray."