The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada [Archive] - Page 2

Ohio

12-04-2012, 09:34 AM

Ohio,

Are these churches that abandon the Blendeds AND TC staying together, or are they dissolving?

Remember I posted that picture of Columbus, Cincy, and Toronto brothers together? Some brothers and churches definitely are together.

I believe the departure of several key brothers (e.g. John Myer,) all very well respected, has caused nearly every GLA leader to reconsider their relationship with Cleveland. Nigel Tomes' articles have not been well-received in metro Cleveland, especially for those who cling to the simplistic paradigm "good Lee, bad Blended."

Sometimes churches might not move entirely in the direction of their leaders, but some of the "non-aligned" leaders have stayed connected. Some leaders stay connected with Cleveland for the sake of their saints, even though they have serious reservations.

That creates complications. Consider all the family ties which have developed over the years. Some families have LSM-aligned, TC-aligned, and non-aligned saints spanning 3 generations. Some are actively focusing on nothing but Jesus just to keep the peace. I guess the easiest way to say it is that churches are not as homogenous as they formerly were.

If leaders can make group alignment a non-issue, then the love of God has a way to flourish once again. In this regard, we have a lot to learn from community churches.

alwayslearning

12-04-2012, 12:27 PM

alwayslearning, I remember back around 2006-07, after I had been out of the LC's a couple years and articles were being written like crazy on both sides (afaithfulword.com and concernedbrothers.com), that I had this stark realization -- if those loyal to TC would just keep reading this stuff, they would eventually learn that TC is no different than the Blendeds. TC was engaged in a battle with LSM which was more dangerous than he ever imagined.

Today TC has little left of his vast empire. The number of brothers who still look up to him is dwindling.

They all had the same teacher!

IMHO regardless of scale or in what form (individual or collective) the whole idea and practice of having a MOTA is unbiblical for good reason. It shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers.

If the result of the fall out in the GLA is that Titus Chu is finally put in his proper place (not by the Anaheim Politburo who are just as bad or worse) but by the churches and their leaders then I think that's a silver lining.

Ohio

12-04-2012, 12:33 PM

They all had the same teacher!

IMHO regardless of scale or in what form (individual or collective) the whole idea and practice of having a MOTA is unbiblical for good reason. It shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers.

If the result of the fall out in the GLA is that Titus Chu is finally put in his proper place (not by the Anaheim Politburo who are just as bad or worse) but by the churches and their leaders then I think that's a silver lining.

There's still lots of brothers who feel that TC should be the current MOTA.

And all the things you said how the MOTA -- shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers. -- still are occurring.

alwayslearning

12-04-2012, 12:46 PM

Ohio

12-04-2012, 01:49 PM

But thankfully dwindling as you said! BTW how would you quantify the before and after with regards to this issue? What does "dwindling" look like in application? E.g. of 35 churches in GLA 23 sets of elders still think and act like Titus Chu is the MOTA or...?

Unless I attended one of their recent conferences, I could not provide accurate information on all localities.

Besides Metro Cleveland, the biggest GLA churches were Detroit, Chicago, Columbus, and Toronto. None of these places now view TC as the MOTA.

There are probably a dozen or so new gatherings in the GLA which are pro-LSM splinters. West of Ohio probably has only central Minneapolis, Naperville, Goshen, and a couple small places still with TC, all the rest are with LSM.

Let me repeat my appreciation for Titus. He really is a gifted brother. Unfortunately, he has learned all of Lee's bad habits of how to treat other brothers, with the exception of lawsuits. This mistreatment, I believe, is the primary reason why so many brothers, who knew Titus personally, agreed with the quarantine. They may have feared Titus, but they never loved him. They viewed the Blendeds as a known quantity, the lesser of two evils, and a better ministry resource for their congregations. It also helps to side with the majority, which was clearly LSM. Nearly all of these brothers had heard TC sow suspicion into them about the Blendeds for years, so none of them were naive about WL's successors.

alwayslearning

12-04-2012, 05:53 PM

Let me repeat my appreciation for Titus. He really is a gifted brother. Unfortunately, he has learned all of Lee's bad habits of how to treat other brothers, with the exception of lawsuits.

I think you have a balanced approach. We can appreciate a minister without elevating them into a MOTA and without allowing them any undo influence in our lives.

Witness Lee needed to be viewed in this manner but instead he was promoted and uplifted to heights even a pope might be jealous of!

aron

12-05-2012, 06:05 AM

There's still lots of brothers who feel that TC should be the current MOTA.

And all the things you said how the MOTA -- shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers. -- still are occurring.

The devaluation of the local assembly, and the individual believers, shows what has happened to "the greatest commandment of all", which is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor as ourselves. This greatest commandment, to paraphrase the LOTR trilogy, is the "one ring to rule them all" -- i.e. it is the one rule to which every other rule should be subservient. In the MOTA realm, as long as you have heard the latest MOTA message, are "positive" toward the MOTA's hierarchy, and are going along with the "practices" pushed by the MOTA's ministry, it matters little if the greatest commandment now has secondary or even tertiary status.

For a confirmation of the teachings of Jesus, not that we need one, look at Paul, who is in absolute lockstep with his Master in this regard. In Romans 13:9 Paul goes through a list of "thou shalt nots", then says, "...if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (KJV).

Paul's scripture is "briefly comprehended" in this saying. Paul's scripture is summed up; it is driven by, it is fully revealed by the rule: Love your neighbor as yourself. To the extent that the MOTA distracts, diverts, and confuses us from this rule, and I believe it does (see the various "rebellions", "quarantines", lawsuits, cover-ups, "new moves of the Lord"), then it should itself be relegated to tertiary status.

Ohio

12-05-2012, 06:57 AM

OBW

12-05-2012, 01:02 PM

The devaluation of the local assembly, and the individual believers, shows what has happened to "the greatest commandment of all", which is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor as ourselves. This greatest commandment, to paraphrase the LOTR trilogy, is the "one ring to rule them all" -- i.e. it is the one rule to which every other rule should be subservient. In the MOTA realm, as long as you have heard the latest MOTA message, are "positive" toward the MOTA's hierarchy, and are going along with the "practices" pushed by the MOTA's ministry, it matters little if the greatest commandment now has secondary or even tertiary status.

For a confirmation of the teachings of Jesus, not that we need one, look at Paul, who is in absolute lockstep with his Master in this regard. In Romans 13:9 Paul goes through a list of "thou shalt nots", then says, "...if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (KJV).

Paul's scripture is "briefly comprehended" in this saying. Paul's scripture is summed up; it is driven by, it is fully revealed by the rule: Love your neighbor as yourself. To the extent that the MOTA distracts, diverts, and confuses us from this rule, and I believe it does (see the various "rebellions", "quarantines", lawsuits, cover-ups, "new moves of the Lord"), then it should itself be relegated to tertiary status.I can hear Albert, Bilbo, Pat C., or one of the other faithful of years past chime in now:Don't you realize that to even think this way is to prove that you are not spiritual, therefore you cannot discern spiritual things?And I have never heard this before either. But it is an accurate overlay of the way things work in the LRC. Dispensing and abiding trump works. The ground trumps the great commandment. And Lee, the Minister of the Age, trumps everything.

Ohio

03-01-2013, 08:40 PM

For those who need their "vision" refreshed, how appropriate to dedicate this year's conference to the "Ground of Locality" ...

http://thechurchincleveland.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/7/5/3675146/1319212_orig.gif

We are pleased to announce a mini-conference over the weekend of April 6th and April 7th. All gatherings and meetings for the conference will be at 3170 Warren Rd, Cleveland Ohio 44111. This time will include fellowship and ministry by various serving brothers from the area concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment. We hope that by the Lord’s Grace we could all be unveiled, enlightened, and strengthened in our revelation during this time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

How about that! Isn't God sovereign! Such an up-to-date speaking for our timely need! It's been years since I have heard teaching like this.

TLFisher

03-02-2013, 10:18 PM

Ohio

03-03-2013, 10:04 AM

Amazing Ohio. Yes, God is sovereign. Brother, I am concerned on the matter of "meeting on the ground of oneness". I hope there isn't any limitations on "meeting on the ground of oneness". In particular when it comes to distinctions of ministries. If you or I are limited due to ministry, how can there be meeting on the ground of oneness? Unless the base of the ground is interpreted on a ministry.

IIRC, John Myer got the boot because he failed to properly answer questions about the unique ground of oneness in the locality. At one point John even had the audacity to say that there is more justification for head covering in the N.T. than the ground of locality.

After this enriching and enlightening conference, featuring the basis of our heavenly vision, each attendant will be given a test. :stunned:

Cassidy

03-10-2013, 02:20 PM

[quote=Ohio;24298][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/I]Yet, [/FONT]Titus Chu's proxy on the internet (Nigel Tomes) states..

[/B]

[/SIZE][/FONT] [/I]We will see in April whether Titus Chu espouses the "one city, one church" dictum/mold that Nigel Tomes finds unscriptural and apparently disagreeable. Or whether Titus Chu will now publicly dis-associate himself from Watchman Nee's ministry and create his own definition of the ground of locality.

Ohio

03-10-2013, 02:52 PM

Yet, Titus Chu's proxy on the internet (Nigel Tomes) states emphatically:

Cassidy, based on what is Tomes a proxy for the "gravitational center" in Cleveland?

Now I realize you often scoff at "the professor's" papers, but why would you completely discredit his voice of scholarship as a mere proxy for TC?

Obviously you have confused Nigel Tomes with another absent minded professor of your liking.

Cassidy

03-10-2013, 04:10 PM

Cassidy, based on what is Tomes a proxy for the "gravitational center" in Cleveland?

Now I realize you often scoff at "the professor's" papers, but why would you completely discredit his voice of scholarship as a mere proxy for TC?

Obviously you have confused Nigel Tomes with another absent minded professor of your liking.

Ohio,

That Nigel Tomes became the proxy spokesperson, on the internet, for Titus Chu in 2006 is beyond debate:

"Because of our stand on these points, Titus and I are accused of being “dissenters,” who “teach differently.”

"The allegation that Titus & co. are divisive..."

"We have never opposed..."

"What we oppose is the imposition of this restriction upon other workers (including ourselves) who do not share this view and never endorsed this policy."

"...why quarantine Titus?"

(QUARANTINE—APPLYING LSM’s ‘ONE PUBLICATION’ POLICY; Nigel Tomes 2006)

What I am puzzled about is the stated topic of this conference conflicts with Tomes' own views on the ground of locality. I suppose we will have to wait and see what Titus Chu and Nigel Tomes (assuming he is invited to speak) will say.

Will they be able to reconcile these incompatible statements?

Ohio

03-10-2013, 05:59 PM

After the recent trauma in the LC's, with quarantines and lawsuits aplenty, I should think that any discussion about the ground of oneness in the Recovery would be utter hypocrisy and borderline lunacy. Hasn't anyone been paying attention to what that teaching produces? The more they talk "oneness," the more they backbite their own brothers. The more they discuss their "vision," the less they can tolerate one another. They are the last Christians on earth who should be ministering on "the ground of locality."

If any group of elders dares to focus solely on their own locality, they will surely suffer repercussions from headquarters. Cleveland has "politely" invited member churches for a conference "concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city," but should the elders of a church decide that their congregation has no need for this teaching, those elders will be marked out by TC. Like John Myer from Columbus, they will be called to Cleveland for questioning, and then found guilty. If they persist in their "independent" ways, they will be removed and blacklisted.

Their form of oneness is not optional. It is mandatory. It is forced upon its members. Theirs is really not a vision at all. Their only "commitment" is to their leader TC.

Midwest bro

03-14-2013, 10:32 AM

Ohio

03-14-2013, 02:20 PM

Cassidy

03-14-2013, 09:06 PM

Here we go again.
"We feel burdened" means "Titus has chosen this topic."
Why? Too many brothers and sisters have gone off the reservation, even meeting with other Christian groups.
So "the ground of oneness" needs to be emphasized once again. In other words, "Stay in prison! You are not allowed to leave!"

Midwest bro,

We don't really know how Titus Chu will conduct this. Well, I should say I don't but maybe you do seeing how you live there. However, based on the invitation banner I don't really see how he could embrace both " concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment" and these assertions from Nigel Tomes:

"….The Local Church dogma of “one city, one church” is not based on Scripture’s prescriptive teaching but on its descriptive examples. It rests on the a priori assumption that a unique biblical blueprint underlies the biblical data; all the “puzzle-pieces” are forced into “one picture.” When this axiom is dropped, different “pictures” emerge. Paul’s churches fit the city-church paradigm; other churches (e.g., Jerusalem and Rome) don’t conform to this mold. Insisting that “one city, one church” is the only biblical pattern amounts to using Paul to “trump”35 the other apostles (e.g., Peter & James). Yet the biblical canon documents the supra-local church in Jerusalem raised up by Peter and James, along with city-churches raised up by Paul. The supra-local church in Jerusalem/Judea is described in Scripture. House churches are also illustrated (e.g., Rome). Scripture testifies to each of these patterns." (JERUSALEM & ROME—CHURCHES ON THE LOCAL GROUND?
“It’s us, it’s us, O Lord, standing on the local ground” (Song) -
Nigel Tomes, April 2009)

Any two people could have three or four differing opinions between them but not usually when the one (Nigel Tomes) has been the proxy spokesman for the other (Titus Chu) on the internet for many years now.

Yet, maybe they have already worked it all out. We'll see soon.

Ohio

03-14-2013, 09:49 PM

Any two people could have three or four differing opinions between them but not usually when the one (Nigel Tomes) has been the proxy spokesman for the other (Titus Chu) on the internet for many years now.

Yet, maybe they have already worked it all out. We'll see soon.

Cassidy, I thought I already talked to you about this "proxy" stuff. You can no more say that Tomes was a proxy for Titus, than you can say John Myer was a proxy for Titus. You have greatly misjudged their relationship.

Even though both Tomes and Myer have spoken out about the deterioration which has taken place at LSM, and started writing about the same time TC was quarantined, both of these authors have really only spoken for themselves. Their disclaimers explicitly state this.

Both Tomes and Myer have also seriously upset the Cleveland status quo. Some of TC's loyal supporters won't even talk to Myer and Tomes any more.

Midwest bro

03-15-2013, 06:31 AM

Some of TC's loyal supporters won't even talk to Myer and Tomes any more.

I can understand that about Myer, but why Tomes? I thought Titus and Nigel were on the same page.

Say more!

Ohio

03-15-2013, 07:04 AM

I can understand that about Myer, but why Tomes? I thought Titus and Nigel were on the same page.

Say more!
That's what I heard. Perhaps you know more.

Cassidy thinks that Nigel speaks at all the conferences. Can you confirm that?

Midwest bro

03-15-2013, 07:24 AM

That's what I heard. Perhaps you know more.

Cassidy thinks that Nigel speaks at all the conferences. Can you confirm that?

I don't think that's true.

UntoHim

03-15-2013, 08:26 AM

Midwest bro,

Have you read any of Nigel Tome's articles which have been posted on the Forum?

When you take a look at the last few articles you will see why Titus is probably most displeased with Nigel. It is apparent that Nigel no long considers Witness Lee the one minister with the one ministry for the age or an apostle of the first order or any other absurd things like that.

Ohio

03-15-2013, 08:27 AM

I can understand that about Myer, but why Tomes? I thought Titus and Nigel were on the same page.

Say more!

Nigel Tomes has written numerous articles addressing Lee's errors and shortcomings. TC would never allow one of his subordinate workers to do that. They can't even travel to another church without his permission. One worker said he was treated like a dog by TC.

Cassidy

03-15-2013, 01:14 PM

Cassidy, I thought I already talked to you about this "proxy" stuff. You can no more say that Tomes was a proxy for Titus, than you can say John Myer was a proxy for Titus. You have greatly misjudged their relationship.

Even though both Tomes and Myer have spoken out about the deterioration which has taken place at LSM, and started writing about the same time TC was quarantined, both of these authors have really only spoken for themselves. Their disclaimers explicitly state this.

Both Tomes and Myer have also seriously upset the Cleveland status quo. Some of TC's loyal supporters won't even talk to Myer and Tomes any more.

Ohio,

I read your objection to my assertion that Nigel was a proxy for Titus on the internet. That is why I posted Nigel's defense of himself and Titus in post #61. I believe his own words from that article are more convincing, more compelling, for his being Titus' spokesman ON THE INTERNET than your objection.

With the passage of time things change and that perhaps you and I are only disagreeing when a divergence between Titus and Nigel occurred and not "if".

Yet, I wonder if Nigel will lend his support to this conference by even showing up and if so how he and Titus would reconcile these polarized statements and teachings.

Ohio

03-15-2013, 01:54 PM

That Nigel Tomes became the proxy spokesperson, on the internet, for Titus Chu in 2006 is beyond debate:

"Because of our stand on these points, Titus and I are accused of being “dissenters,” who “teach differently.”

"The allegation that Titus & co. are divisive..."

"We have never opposed..."

"What we oppose is the imposition of this restriction upon other workers (including ourselves) who do not share this view and never endorsed this policy."

"...why quarantine Titus?"

Ohio,

I read your objection to my assertion that Nigel was a proxy for Titus on the internet. That is why I posted Nigel's defense of himself and Titus in post #61. I believe his own words from that article are more convincing, more compelling, for his being Titus' spokesman ON THE INTERNET than your objection.

With the passage of time things change and that perhaps you and I are only disagreeing when a divergence between Titus and Nigel occurred and not "if".

Yet, I wonder if Nigel will lend his support to this conference by even showing up and if so how he and Titus would reconcile these polarized statements and teachings.

In relation to the Whistler quarantine, I have posted on these forums far more refutations of the Blended writings and actions than Tomes has. Then am I a proxy for TC and Cleveland too? To speak against the teachings and activities at LSM is not exactly the same as to speak on behalf of TC and Cleveland.

Back in early 2006, as I was beginning to understand what really has happened behind the LC scenes, I remember writing on several occasions concerning Anaheim and Cleveland to the effect -- once one has seriously analyzed and critiqued the policies and actions of the Blendeds, it is only a couple more tiny steps before one realizes that in all essentials WL and TC and the Blendeds are all virtually identical. I wrote this because of the prevailing paradigm promoted by TC that existed in all the GLA LC's which I summarized as "WL good -- Blended bad."

Since then many more in the GLA LC's have realized the same thing. Perhaps these forums have helped. Perhaps they just began to reflect on years of events. The sad thing about TC and every other brother who ever participated in "the program," is that none of them can part ways on amiable terms. TC has never had actual "peers or friends." Perhaps he thought he did, but Whistler shattered that illusion. Benjamen Chen of NYC, whom he had known for more than half a century, perhaps said it best, "no one can work with TC." Only those in the GLA who approach him in a manner of "subservience" can actually fellowship with him. He's been known to explode in front of brothers for no reason whatsoever. One little verbal mishap while talking to TC can bring down the house. Of course, I'm not speaking about new ones or sisters, but only those in position of authority.

Cassidy

03-15-2013, 03:08 PM

"In relation to the Whistler quarantine, I have posted on these forums far more refutations of the Blended writings and actions than Tomes has. Then am I a proxy for TC and Cleveland too? To speak against the teachings and activities at LSM is not exactly the same as to speak on behalf of TC and Cleveland."

Ohio,

If you said things like "Titus and I are accused" or "We have never opposed" (meaning Titus and yourself) or "What we oppose..." (again meaning Titus and you) then you would be a proxy speaker for Titus. And if Titus did not register a protest to your saying things like that then it could be inferred that he allowed you to serve in that capacity on his behalf.

But I must say that even though you speak out against LSM I never considered you as a proxy speaker for Titus. Not because you also on occassion speak out against Titus but mainly because you never say "Titus and I" or "We" when speaking about Titus and yourself., etc.

Even in this exchange I do not believe you are a proxy speaker for Nigel Tomes either. Again because you do not identify yourself as speaking for both of you though you might hold the same or similar viewpoints.

Ohio

03-15-2013, 03:43 PM

Ohio,

If you said things like "Titus and I are accused" or "We have never opposed" (meaning Titus and yourself) or "What we oppose..." (again meaning Titus and you) then you would be a proxy speaker for Titus. And if Titus did not register a protest to your saying things like that then it could be inferred that he allowed you to serve in that capacity on his behalf.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I'll be careful next time I say "we."

ZNPaaneah

03-16-2013, 08:03 AM

If you said things like "Titus and I are accused" or "We have never opposed" (meaning Titus and yourself) or "What we oppose..." [COLOR=Black](again meaning Titus and you) t[COLOR=Black]hen you would be a proxy speaker for Titus. And if Titus did not register a protest to your saying things like that then it could be inferred that he allowed you to serve in that capacity on his behalf.

OBW and I agree that just because WL says something that doesn't make it so. We feel you have to provide evidence that supports the assertion.:stunned:

I am a proxy for OBW!

Cassidy

03-16-2013, 02:15 PM

OBW and I agree that just because WL says something that doesn't make it so. We feel you have to provide evidence that supports the assertion.:stunned:

I am a proxy for OBW!

Actually you are not.

Because OBW has spoken for himself in this forum and has never up this point nor by his consent or silence allowed you to assert proxy opinions where you say "OBW and I" or "We" in reference to you and OBW.

In fact, OBW has gone out of his way to explain even the finest of distinctions between your and his viewpoints. :)

ZNPaaneah

03-16-2013, 02:46 PM

Actually you are not.

Because OBW has spoken for himself in this forum and has never up this point nor by his consent or silence allowed you to assert proxy opinions where you say "OBW and I" or "We" in reference to you and OBW.

In fact, OBW has gone out of his way to explain even the finest of distinctions between your and his viewpoints. :)

So then, if Nigel Tomes has "gone out of his way" to explain the "finest of distinctions" between him and Titus doesn't that prove he isn't a proxy for Titus?

Cassidy

03-16-2013, 03:59 PM

So then, if Nigel Tomes has "gone out of his way" to explain the "finest of distinctions" between him and Titus doesn't that prove he isn't a proxy for Titus?

That would be compelling. Where did he make distinctions between himself and Titus? Where did he contrast his views with those of Titus? We've seen where he included Titus' views with his own. Where did he do the opposite?

ZNPaaneah

03-16-2013, 04:27 PM

That would be compelling. Where did he make distinctions between himself and Titus? Where did he contrast his views with those of Titus? We've seen where he included Titus' views with his own. Where did he do the opposite?

I know very little of Tomes and next to nothing about TC. I would think Ohio is the clear choice as to who can answer this and it seems he already did in post #73.

Ohio

03-16-2013, 06:16 PM

That would be compelling. Where did he make distinctions between himself and Titus? Where did he contrast his views with those of Titus? We've seen where he included Titus' views with his own. Where did he do the opposite?

I just looked at the church in Toronto's web site (http://www.churchintoronto.com/) and I saw nothing that would indicate they have ever been a part of the LRC:

they have no connection or link to LSM or other LC's
they have nothing of Nee and Lee in their history
their schedule does not include Cleveland's upcoming conference
they have no link to TC's ministry
They give credit to no man but our Lord Jesus
Their page for "church staff" never mentions that Nigel Tomes is a proxy for Titus Chu

Cassidy

03-16-2013, 11:05 PM

I just looked at the church in Toronto's web site (http://www.churchintoronto.com/) and I saw nothing that would indicate they have ever been a part of the LRC:

they have no connection or link to LSM or other LC's
they have nothing of Nee and Lee in their history
their schedule does not include Cleveland's upcoming conference
they have no link to TC's ministry
They give credit to no man but our Lord Jesus
Their page for "church staff" never mentions that Nigel Tomes is a proxy for Titus Chu

If there is "no link to TC's ministry" then why does the Church in Cleveland website provide a link to the Church in Toronto website under the category of "Churches in Fellowship"?

Ohio

03-17-2013, 07:16 AM

If there is "no link to TC's ministry" then why does the Church in Cleveland website provide a link to the Church in Toronto website under the category of "Churches in Fellowship"?

Those links are so out of date. Half of them don't even connect. Some of those old GLA sites look like distressed cyber ghost towns. Toronto's was the only site that even looked current. One site still has a picture of me in sunglasses. :cool:

You can't use an antiquated link to determine the right hand of fellowship, neither can a missing link determine an official division, unless, of course, it is LSM maintaining the sites.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Cass, I happened to see this announcement on Cleveland's site ...

COMING SOON! What you see affects and changes how you live. In fact, the Bible says that, "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Check back in the coming weeks to see a clear description of our vision and commitment, and how our lives have been changed as a result.Sounds like this coming conference will be life-changing, just like the olden days. Perhaps this is an event you do not want to miss. You can even register online.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one good thing I noticed about Cleveland's website was that it no longer was "all about Titus." It actually was almost looking like a real church website, except for the lack of upkeep, and all the talk about the ground of locality. I also noticed that my old LC was not included among the links, and their leaders are the most loyal to Cleveland.

TLFisher

03-17-2013, 09:38 AM

I just looked at the church in Toronto's web site (http://www.churchintoronto.com/) and I saw nothing that would indicate they have ever been a part of the LRC:

Ohio, I had looked at the website. There were several things that I appreciated about the content. One was a link to prior messages and two was the play group drop in. The assembly I attend supports something similar tailored to mothers with young children to come together for a time during the week. Is this a new trend among churches?

Cassidy

03-17-2013, 10:07 AM

Those links are so out of date. Half of them don't even connect.

The link from Cleveland to Toronto works just fine!

"You can't use an antiquated link to determine the right hand of fellowship,..."

Nothing antiquated about that link... and the link is under the banner "Churches in Fellowship"

But, look, based on Nigel's linking himself to Titus and serving a spokesperson for Titus in post #61 and the website link from Cleveland to Toronto as "Churches in Fellowship" then it is reasonable to conclude that they are strongly linked.

Nevertheless, I have noted a seemingly apparent departure in views on the ground of the church between Titus and Nigel and also concur that you being probably closest to Nigel Tomes than any other posters in the forum are denying that said link exists. However, until Nigel or Titus state it then I still lean toward there being a strong link and relationship between the two. Yet, this conference topic and invitation appear to be bringing two their different views to a tipping point.

We will know more in a few weeks I suppose.

Ohio

03-17-2013, 12:09 PM

Nevertheless, I have noted a seemingly apparent departure in views on the ground of the church between Titus and Nigel and also concur that you being probably closest to Nigel Tomes than any other posters in the forum are denying that said link exists. However, until Nigel or Titus state it then I still lean toward there being a strong link and relationship between the two. Yet, this conference topic and invitation appear to be bringing two their different views to a tipping point.

We will know more in a few weeks I suppose.

Excuse me. I am not denying nor have I ever denied that a link exists. From the beginning of this exchange I have only tried to dispute your declaration that Tomes is a proxy spokesman for TC. One thing I can say definitively is that Tomes has found his own voice in the aftermath of Whistler, and that is both good and needed for churches to positively grow and prosper.

Now that does not mean that I agree with everything Tomes says. In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook massacre, he posted (http://churchintoronto.blogspot.com/2012/12/for-us-christians-gun-control-should-be.html) a number of blogs against gun ownership by evangelical Christians in the US, and I don't happen to agree with these views of his, especially coming from north of the border. His article indicates that Christians south of the border might not have brains. That message may well suit his Canadian brothren, but some of my American brothers treasure their 2nd amendment rights as much as the 1st.

Anyways, Cass ... did you register for the conference?

Ohio

03-17-2013, 12:12 PM

Ohio, I had looked at the website. There were several things that I appreciated about the content. One was a link to prior messages and two was the play group drop in. The assembly I attend supports something similar tailored to mothers with young children to come together for a time during the week. Is this a new trend among churches?

Churches have been serving their communities since the dawn of time. It was WL who came along to declare that this somehow contaminated the pure gospel of God.

Cassidy

03-17-2013, 02:44 PM

"Anyways, Cass ... did you register for the conference?"

No.

UntoHim

03-18-2013, 09:47 AM

All the posts related to the conference at the church in Cleveland and matters relating to Nigel and the church in Toronto have been moved to this thread.

Lets continue this important subject here.

OBW

03-18-2013, 12:35 PM

OBW and I agree that just because WL says something that doesn't make it so. We feel you have to provide evidence that supports the assertion.:stunned:

I am a proxy for OBW!That's a good one! :hysterical:

We probably really do agree on a whole lot, but neither of us are a proxy for the other on much of anything.

And even if Nigel considered himself right alongside TC in 2006, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. I think that the break with Anaheim gave Nigel more freedom than TC would have liked. He began to see far beyond just the errors of the BBs. It now extends to Lee himself.

He may not have taken on TC, but watch out. If TC starts setting out alternative theology, it could happen.

Ohio

03-18-2013, 12:47 PM

All the posts related to the conference at the church in Cleveland and matters relating to Nigel and the church in Toronto have been moved to this thread.

Lets continue this important subject here.

Thanks UntoHim. Here's some information.

Back in Sept. of 1977, I was part of the team of saints which migrated to Columbus, Ohio to "take the ground of the church." I have posted on many occasions how our primary minister Philip Comfort was so harshly abused by TC, and how that was devastating to the whole church there. Though I left Cols years ago, I have always had an affection for the church there, and have been sorely grieved to see further damages inflicted by LC headquarters located in Cleveland and Anaheim. When it comes to small assemblies such as Columbus, neither of these work centers has ever placed the church above their own selfish interests.

Here are some related events from Ohio ...

1. The LSM sponsored group (http://churchincolumbus.org/who-are-we/) which sued the original church in Columbus, now has possession of their church property, and definitely still claims exclusive rights to the ground of locality.

2. The remaining saints, a clear majority in number, began to meet in a rented school and call themselves Columbus Christian Assembly. After they willingly handed over all their church property and assets, they seemed to flourish for awhile. Their website, however, is now down.

3. After the conflicts surrounding the quarantine and the lawsuits settled down, Titus Chu once again demanded that John Myer bring all the young people to his Cleveland college conferences. John eventually decided that the ministry of TC was no longer beneficial to these young people, because he often found himself explaining to them why TC continually shamed and belittled him in front of them.

4. By this time, John and others had begun a new church closer to the OSU campus, and were meeting as Upper Arlington Christian Assembly. They regularly cared for college students who also had their own group on campus called Oasis Christian Community (http://www.oasisosu.com/) at OSU. When they lost their rented hall in Upper Arlington, they moved even closer to Campus becoming Grandview Christian Assembly. (http://www.grandviewchristianassembly.org/welcome.php)

5. TC demanded that the other elders at Cols Christian Assy side with him, and together they terminated all financial and housing support for John and his family. John's "Epilog" speaks of some of the details here. TC demanded that the other young people leaders also choose sides. Never was it asked by TC or his cadre of supporters what would be best for the needs of the young people on and around the campus.

6. After John Myer and Titus parted ways over spurious questions concerning the local ground, Keith Miller (if you remember, he was the original missionary to Uganda, which also was divided when Anaheim and Cleveland began to fight over their colonial rights to those African saints) and the Church in Cincinnati similarly decided that the entanglements with Cleveland were not beneficial to their spiritual health and well-being. They subsequently changed their name to Cincinnati Community Church (http://cincycc.com/).

7. Norm Minahan, a long time GLA worker, who had been with the church in Detroit (http://www.churchindetroit.org/)for many years, has relocated back to Mansfield where he once lived,in order to strengthen the saints there who lost their meeting home during the LSM sponsored lawsuit that devastated their tiny church life. I was told that they don't invite Norm to Cleveland anymore. May the Lord bless him and Mansfield, which is the original LC in the GLA dating back to the 60's.

8. In a move surely to upset the proverbial apple cart, Keith Miller and the Cincinnati Community Church has recently merged with a non-LC assembly nearby them called Impact Church for strengthening and fellowship. Their website has more information. May the Lord grant them a fresh beginning in Cincinnati.

9. One of the remaining Columbus elders MP, mentioned in Myer's Epilog,who accompanied him to Cleveland to face Titus for their last time together, had been pursuing many "Pentecostal-style" teachings and practices since the soul-searching days surrounding the quarantine. He, and a number of saints I know, have been greatly impacted by Steve Gray's ministry at the World Revival Church (http://www.worldrevivalchurch.com/) in Kansas. He has just recently decided to leave the Columbus Christian Assembly to pursue the Lord on his own. May the Lord bless him and his family.

UntoHim

03-20-2013, 09:12 AM

TC demanded that the other elders at Cols Christian Assy side with him, and together they terminated all financial and housing support for John and his family.
So much for "administration local, each answering to the Lord" :o
So it turns out the John was not really a true biblical elder (maybe unbeknownst to him, but definitely to Chu). He was simply one of the branch managers of the Titus Chu division of the Local Church. It turns of that John was not serving at the pleasure of the King of kings, but rather he was serving at the pleasure of the bishop of the Midwest. When he found out that the bishop "had no clothes", and was unwilling to pretend that he did, he was betrayed by the bishop and the other branch managers. So what has become of the Titus Chu branch office in Columbus? Don't tell me, let me guess....a couple of dozen adults holed up on Sunday mornings pray-reading, singing and "prophesizing" the words of a man. (Lee or Chu...what does it matter). No preaching of the biblical gospel, no community outreach, no ministries to poor and needy in their community, no ministries to young people that are culturally relevant, no ministries to assist people with their families, marriages or life in general.

In a move surely to upset the proverbial apple cart, Keith Miller and the Cincinnati Community Church has recently merged with a non-LC assembly nearby them called Impact Church for strengthening and fellowship. Their website has more information. May the Lord grant them a fresh beginning in Cincinnati.
My understanding is that Miller et al unhitched from the LSM/LC/Chu apple cart a while back, so I doubt that they care very much if that apple cart is upset or not. I would say that this "merge" with Impact Church is a very positive step. I think all of the former LSM/LC churches should consider such a direction. The simple truth is that Local Church leaders are ill-equipped to meet the spiritual needs of most of the members. (sorry to be so frank, and this is not an indictment of the heart or character of these brothers). I really believe they would do well (for themselves and the rest of the church) to seek the support and assistance of an established, evangelical church or group of churches with an established, educated and proven leadership team.

Ohio

03-20-2013, 12:38 PM

The simple truth is that Local Church leaders are ill-equipped to meet the spiritual needs of most of the members. (sorry to be so frank, and this is not an indictment of the heart or character of these brothers). I really believe they would do well (for themselves and the rest of the church) to seek the support and assistance of an established, evangelical church or group of churches with an established, educated and proven leadership team.

This is actually the strategy of TC -- he creates an environment that prohibits actual leadership growth -- while at the same time convincing these leaders that they are more equipped than all the pastors "out there." It was common over the years for TC to regularly squash others' creative initiatives, and at other times to steal good ideas to make them his own.

Both John Myer and Keith Miller were unique in that they both had "startup" experience. Cincy's website shows that Myer is a welcomed visitor to minister indicating that he has also earned the trust of those originally of the Impact Church.

Ohio

03-20-2013, 12:42 PM

So what has become of the Titus Chu branch office in Columbus? Don't tell me, let me guess....a couple of dozen adults holed up on Sunday mornings pray-reading, singing and "prophesizing" the words of a man. (Lee or Chu...what does it matter).

That would be more descriptive of the LSM group which sued to obtain all the real estate. The TC group probably got another young full-timer from Cleveland to help out. The fact that their website is down is not a good sign.

UntoHim

03-20-2013, 03:18 PM

The TC group probably got another young full-timer from Cleveland to help out.

I received this news from a very well-placed little birdie...

Almost correct (not quite) The TC group got another young full-timer from Ann Arbor, MI [not Cleveland] to help out [in Columbus]. But it's still "shuffling the same deck, moving the same pawns around the board"

UntoHim

03-20-2013, 03:21 PM

...But it's still "shuffling the same deck, moving the same pawns around the board"

Maybe a better analogy would be "shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic". :eek:

Ohio

03-20-2013, 03:47 PM

Almost correct (not quite) The TC group got another young full-timer from Ann Arbor, MI [not Cleveland] to help out [in Columbus]. But it's still "shuffling the same deck, moving the same pawns around the board"

From "Cleveland" means from TC, one of the workers under his charge. Had I said he came from Michigan, would that have made sense?

As I have said before, going full-time in the Recovery under the direction of TC means that one must forfeit his right to determine where and how he serves. I'll never forget the day all the saints were packing a local full-timer and his family to move to Cincinnati "for the Lord's move," only to get a last minute phone call from one of TC's diminutives, "you will be moving to Willoughby instead." TC demands that all allegiances be to him and not the local church where you serve.

Btw, pawns are powerful indeed. One of them can "grow up" and be anything he wants to be! It just needs to reach the other side still alive. Not so in the Recovery.

Ohio

03-21-2013, 09:35 AM

I quoted this post from another thread which got lost in the recent restructuring. The pending conference in Cleveland serves to highlight the discussing Igzy and I were having about "vision" in the Recovery.

The "vision" factor is successfully used in the LC's to instill fear into all her members. They all want to believe that they have "it," and that their lives are ordered by "it." They dread the day one of their peers would ever question whether they have lost "it." Whenever members start missing meetings, we pray for them that "it" would be made clear. If a member speaks out against abuses, then he becomes an opposer, and the word gets out that he never had "it" to begin with.

In order to properly assess the Recovery, we must examine this matter of "vision," so crucial to her membership. It is a word of great import, used regularly by LRC leaders, yet all their rhetoric does not match their practice. The rhetoric of vision always takes us back to "the ground of oneness," and what Christian out there will dare to say that "oneness" is not an important feature of our church and our personal walk in the Lord?

TC and senior elders in Cleveland, principally Paul Neider, are convinced that the region needs a huge dose of "vision" in order to keep the remaining faithful from wandering off the reservation. Hence the "burden" for their upcoming annual conference. They are promising life-changing revelation to restore the saints to their original vision. Since the "ground of oneness" has so little scriptural support, they must dig deep to uncover types and patterns to prop up their message.

If they really cared for the "ground of oneness" in each locality, how could TC in Cleveland effectively excommunicate John Myer in Columbus for having minor views which don't match his own. Does not our oneness trump all other superfluous teachings and practices? Did not Cleveland cry bloody murder when Anaheim passed similar condemnations on them for minor differences such as playing drums and printing books? The very term locality places administrative boundaries around each church, supposedly preserving them from outside interferences. Yet neither Anaheim nor Cleveland has ever allowed that teaching of locality to hinder their external manipulations on victimized and unsuspecting LC's. Let's properly call this hypocrisy -- teaching oneness and practicing division.

This teaching, soon to be bannered during their spring conference, does more to expose the hypocrisy of their teachings and practice than to restore some long lost "vision." Years ago we were taught that we were the only Christians on earth who longed to be one, and all others besides us clung tenaciously to their denominational divisions. After a long sordid history of storms and quarantines and divisions, they are still teaching that "vision." Have they no shame? Are they that disconnected from their actual practices? Are they still convinced that puffing up their members with outrageous claims of vision speciality is the best course of action?

OBW

03-21-2013, 12:04 PM

I ran across this on a blog yesterday.

I’ve already mentioned this week that it’s biblically impossible to be “biblical,” but there’s something else that’s impossible for evangelical Christians: unity as intellectual uniformity. Authors/speakers/bloggers often lament that the church could truly be unified if only we could all agree on “X.”

The measure for unity has been anything from adopting specific doctrines or creeds to a particular approach to social issues.

If I’ve made one huge, colossal mistake over the years, it’s the expectation that the right theology can fix everything. That’s where so many evangelical and progressive reform movements fall off the tracks.And in another place, I read where someone has suggested that the best answer to "what are you?" is: I am a Christian. I practice my faith in way "X."Lower the position of the group, the doctrines, the theology. Elevate the association with Christ. That is the only thing we have in common. Among Christians, we disagree on:
Calvinism
Baptism
How to "do" the Lord's table
How to preach the gospel
Music
Forms and traditions
We even disagree on:
Democrat v Republican v Green v Libertarian v Tea party
How to deal with social issues
What we should do about homosexuals and abortion
Chick-fil-A
The Boy Scouts
Home schooling v private school v public school
Unity is clearly not in any of these things. Even within a single congregation there is division on these.

Unity is only in Christ. Not in doctrine, creed, apostle, or even dirt.

At least most of the Christians "out there" kind of know all of this. It is the ones who are sure that they have found THE WAY that are the most fooled by their own minds. Or rather darkened in their own minds. The LRC is not alone in this. They are just very close to most of us, often in ways we wish they were not.

I'm continually dumbfounded that there are so many truly intelligent people who can listen to TC (or Lee, or BP, RG, RK, etc.) say the kinds of things we have quoted from these men in this thread and their insides don't scream so loudly that the people on the next block can hear it. But only silence.

Midwest bro

03-21-2013, 03:09 PM

Have they no shame?

No, they do not.

Are they that disconnected from their actual practices?

Clearly they are.

Are they still convinced that puffing up their members with outrageous claims of vision speciality is the best course of action?

The answer appears to be yes.

Unregistered

03-22-2013, 06:15 AM

The answer appears to be yes.

The "vision", in a nutshell:

1. If you are not meeting with us, you are in Babylon.

2. If you are meeting with us and are not completely one (subservient) with current leadership, you are rebellious.

Accept those points and you could have a long and successful stay with us in the local church life, and you won't get shipwrecked in one of our frequent storms.

Ohio

03-22-2013, 06:42 AM

Hey Midwest Bro,

This teaching of "the ground" creates a generational conflict in Cleveland. On the west side of Cleveland in the original Hall #1 in the Westpark neighborhood, where I grew up, are the old elders who feel that this teaching constitutes the bulk of their "vision," and will provide a "life-changing" experience for the church, or so they have advertised.

On the east side of Cleveland near the CWRU campus is the Cleveland Heights young people's church headed up by TC's son-in-law Rex Beck. In metro Cleveburg, they have moved the furthest away from the traditional LC structures. There was even a time when Rex and John Myer worked fairly close together, especially for these annual events such as Ignite and Mountaintop. Surely Rex and the church there have been "contaminated" with some of Myer's progressive attitudes toward institutional establishments like the ground of locality.

Do you think TC is walking a fine line here allowing Paul Neider et. al. to promote teachings that Beck and the young people don't necessarily endorse or even want to discuss? These GLA young people's churches are not doing well standing up to the "old guard." Remember that team of young full-timers headed up by Neider's own son? They started a church in Chicago-land after the Gospel Odyssey which landed in the LSM camp. Then they relocated to the Pittsburg area and completely fizzled out in discouragement during the quarantine. Then John Myer got a pink slip, and the GLA lost the entire young people's church near OSU, devastating the church in Columbus. Will Rex Beck and his young church be the latest casualty in this generational clash of ideologies?

Ohio

03-22-2013, 09:38 AM

That would be compelling. Where did he make distinctions between himself and Titus? Where did he contrast his views with those of Titus? We've seen where he included Titus' views with his own. Where did he do the opposite?
Let me add that TC had a recent English language conference in Mississauga, a suburb of Toronto. Nigel Tomes did not attend. In the old days, there was no way that TC would hold a conference in little Mississauga, and not in Toronto's big hall. And in the old days, Nigel would have to stand and give the first testimony supporting TC's message.

I suppose that some things have changed.

Midwest bro

03-22-2013, 10:23 AM

Ohio

03-22-2013, 12:11 PM

Ohio,
Thanks for your questions, but it sounds to me like you know a lot more about the present situation than I do.
Years ago there used to be many "full-timers" under Titus. You've mentioned a few (NT, NM, JM, RB). What has happened to the rest of them? Are there still a large number, or have they all gone their own way?
You don't have to name names, but could you give a general description?

There was a time, perhaps in the late 90's when huge amounts of support came to TC from some successful Asian businessmen. TC had enormous opportunity to tap into the young talent in the region and abroad, culling the best to serve full-time. New churches were popping up all around the region. Four of the most senior workers including CD, NM, and DS of Minneapolis, also returned to the area after their stint of "blending" during WL's final days. There were teams of young full-timers using the strength of all the college students during the summertime to start new churches.

As the quarantine approached circa 2005, close to 10 full-timer families favorable to TC moved out of the Chicago area into "greater Ohio." Asian funding became limited. Blended operatives were sowing seats of distrust, drawing up battle lines. As a whole, many brothers went through a period of self-examination. Much hidden information about the movement under WL was now being made known via the internet. A movement grew, partially encouraged by TC, to return to the scriptures. The light was not just shining on those nasty "Blendeds" at LSM, but also on the whole system, including TC. What started as a means to gain advantage over the Blendeds, became the source of his own undoing.

Personally I believe that years of abuse and mistreatment of the gifted brothers finally caught up with TC. One can only be caged up and treated like a dog for so long. The new century brought liberty to the captives. Brothers who worked side by side with TC for years now have nothing to do with him. Nearly all the Midwest brothers who sided with LSM during the quarantine were spiritual enough to realize that TC's ministry at the time was more mature than any of the Blendeds, yet they still sided with LSM.

For years, TC preferred a regional fund, supported by member churches, because then the workers were more loyal to him and not to their supporting church. With most of these funds now dried up, many of these workers are now forced to support themselves. Some were able to go back to their old professions, and some tried something new like realty. I don't have actual figures, but I know that available funds for workers is just a fraction of what it once was. Some of the remaining workers are now supported directly by their churches.

Today many of these brothers are also scattered to the wind. They can't go along with either Anaheim or Cleveland.

Cassidy

03-22-2013, 07:40 PM

Let me add that TC had a recent English language conference in Mississauga, a suburb of Toronto. Nigel Tomes did not attend. In the old days, there was no way that TC would hold a conference in little Mississauga, and not in Toronto's big hall. And in the old days, Nigel would have to stand and give the first testimony supporting TC's message.

I suppose that some things have changed.

Perhaps Nigel was busy that day.

More telling would be if no one in leadership from Toronto attended the conference in Mississauga with Titus Chu.

Ohio

03-24-2013, 06:06 AM

The "vision", in a nutshell:

1. If you are not meeting with us, you are in Babylon.

2. If you are meeting with us and are not completely one (subservient) with current leadership, you are rebellious.

Accept those points and you could have a long and successful stay with us in the local church life, and you won't get shipwrecked in one of our frequent storms.

So true! And how true of every exclusive group claiming some inside track into the scriptures and insider access to the throne of God.

Here's a little story. Once upon a time we stayed a week with in-laws at some nice cabins in the woods, and somehow had connected with another couple nearby. Then one evening we had 5 couples together in this tiny lodge on the lake, just eating and fellowshipping around the Savior. Things went well until their "leader" began to share his "burden." Not wanting any one person to dominate, I interjected a question and threw in a verse for discussion. Later my wife whispered to me, "did you hear his wife tell him that you don't 'see it' ?"

And that's just how it is with Christians caught with exclusive pride. They "see it" and you don't, and their membership can only include those who "see it." They have lost sight of what brings God's children together, and instead focus on what makes them different, emphasizing those minor points which make them feel more "special." It just doesn't happen to LC folks either.

Ohio

03-25-2013, 09:02 PM

Do you think TC is walking a fine line here allowing Paul Neider et. al. to promote teachings that Beck and the young people don't necessarily endorse or even want to discuss? These GLA young people's churches are not doing well standing up to the "old guard." Remember that team of young full-timers headed up by Neider's own son? They started a church in Chicago-land after the Gospel Odyssey which landed in the LSM camp. Then they relocated to the Pittsburg area and completely fizzled out in discouragement during the quarantine. Then John Myer got a pink slip, and the GLA lost the entire young people's church near OSU, devastating the church in Columbus. Will Rex Beck and his young church be the latest casualty in this generational clash of ideologies?

I understand that Titus will not be in Cleveland for this conference, and it is really Cleveland elder Paul Neider who is so passionate about all the remaining GLA LC's being restored to their governing "vision" of the ground of locality. Neider was "captured" by this vision in the mid-70's in the church in Mansfield, and seeing his talents, Titus quickly relocated him to Cleveland. To his credit, Paul Neider has always resisted TC's public admonitions to quit his job and serve full-time. I can't begin to count the number of times I have heard Titus make this public plea, using every means available to coerce Neider into submission. It has been a long-standing joke in the GLA about Neider -- "that brother who refused to quit his job." Putting aside my respect for Paul as a highly-regarded elder in the church, it does seem that this conference is a step backward.

Cassidy

03-26-2013, 08:31 AM

.... it does seem that this conference is a step backward.

How so, Ohio?

You said it yourself. The man is still faithful to the vision he received decades ago and is a talented, passionate, and independent thinker. You have a great deal of respect for him personally and he is highly-regarded among the people. Based on your opinions of Paul N and Titus voiced in this forum it seems you would have applauded the direction of the conference under Paul N as a step forward.

Something is puzzling though. If Titus will not be at this conference being conducted on his front porch, then, where will he be?

Ohio

03-26-2013, 09:04 AM

How so, Ohio?

You said it yourself. The man is still faithful to the vision he received decades ago and is a talented, passionate, and independent thinker. You have a great deal of respect for him personally and he is highly-regarded among the people. Based on your opinions of Paul N and Titus voiced in this forum it seems you would have applauded the direction of the conference under Paul N as a step forward.

Something is puzzling though. If Titus will not be at this conference being conducted on his front porch, then, where will he be?

There's another side to this story. I never said he was an "independent thinker." Too often he was only doing TC's bidding. Where was Neider when so many others got abused, ridiculed, and treated like a dog? He was right there supporting his mentor. Just because he had the fortitude to stand up to TC abuse, doesn't mean that he should have been silent when others got it.

The real puzzle is how did this ground of locality teaching ever get elevated to the status of Paul's apostolic "vision?"

Midwest bro

03-26-2013, 09:56 AM

I understand that Titus will not be in Cleveland for this conference, and it is really Cleveland elder Paul Neider who is so passionate about all the remaining GLA LC's being restored to their governing "vision" of the ground of locality. Neider was "captured" by this vision in the mid-70's in the church in Mansfield, and seeing his talents, Titus quickly relocated him to Cleveland. To his credit, Paul Neider has always resisted TC's public admonitions to quit his job and serve full-time. I can't begin to count the number of times I have heard Titus make this public plea, using every means available to coerce Neider into submission. It has been a long-standing joke in the GLA about Neider -- "that brother who refused to quit his job." Putting aside my respect for Paul as a highly-regarded elder in the church, it does seem that this conference is a step backward.

Ohio, this is surprising to me. Why would people come to a conference led by PN, and not by TC? PN is an elder in Cleveland (although he lives in a different city - is he one with the Christians there?). He's not a particularly gifted speaker. Is there an interest in hearing him speak about the ground of locality? Aren't the regular saints kind of tired of this topic, since it has so obviously failed on a large scale?

If they truly wanted to practice their version of the "oneness of the Body," shouldn't they have repented and stayed with the rest of the local churches? When the "Body" excommunicated TC, shouldn't they have agreed with that to "keep the oneness"? I don't understand how they can't see through the hypocrisy. Their version of oneness has failed completely. Why can't they admit that it's a false doctrine to begin with?

OBW

03-26-2013, 10:59 AM

The real puzzle is how did this ground of locality teaching ever get elevated to the status of Paul's apostolic "vision?"And the answer is, "by Lee." (Oh that Lee. He is surely exalted now.) It surely wasn't because of anything Paul said. Or any of the other apostles. It is not recorded in any place in the NT in that way. Not even a bread crumb trail.

More like a collection of words gleaned from various places in scripture then rearranged like one of those puzzles to make a secret message appear. "You take 'church' from here in this verse, and 'city' form this other verse, and 'vision' from still another, put them into the fire and out comes this golden calf . . . er, ah, central theme in the heart of the divine revelation."

Unregistered

03-26-2013, 11:10 AM

... a collection of words gleaned from various places in scripture ... "You take 'church' from here in this verse, and 'city' form this other verse, and 'vision' from still another..."

The christian vision is of Jesus Christ and arguably even is Jesus Christ. Regarding the church, Jesus said that when we gather in His name, He will be there with us. He did not specify some extra vision besides His name.

"So simple even a cave man could do it."

Cassidy

03-26-2013, 01:16 PM

The real puzzle is how did this ground of locality teaching ever get elevated to the status of Paul's apostolic "vision?"

I said something like this before but perhaps bears repeating.

The Bible is not silent on the need for vision. I do not think you will disagree with that though others might.

The question becomes whether a vision is a biblical one or in this case whether it is the same apostolic vision Paul had. Many believe they understand what that vision was and at least several believe that vision inextricably linked to the ground of locality (not you, of course). So it is not a puzzle at all to anyone who believes they have seen that vision and the wagging of heads of unbelievers will not persuade them in the least. A rehash of the discussion about the difference between vision and bible teaching is not needed here but it is apparent that the vision of the ground of locality impacts some people so deeply that they never shake it.

And why should they?

Maybe the pendulum swung too far and a correction is in the works. If it is of God then it would not be a step backward.

Cal

03-26-2013, 01:30 PM

..but it is apparent that the vision of the ground of locality impacts some people so deeply that they never shake it.

And why should they?

That's a really weak argument. It sounds like the "gays are born that way so homosexual acts are not immoral" argument.

Some Catholics are greatly impacted by the vision of the pope as the "Vicar of Christ" and they never shake it.

Any vision that is not truth should be shaken, especially one that impacts you greatly.

ZNPaaneah

03-26-2013, 01:40 PM

Maybe the pendulum swung too far and a correction is in the works. If it is of God then it would not be a step backward.

Perhaps his burden is that the teaching is unscriptural and in practice it is divisive. Having seen this he now has a deep burden for the church to see it as well. This burden is related to the commitment and practice of the saints. Perhaps he doesn't want the saints to be committed to something that is divisive nor does he want them to practice something that is divisive. Good point, it is of God to tear down the middle wall of partition created by this teaching.:thumbup:

Cassidy

03-26-2013, 01:45 PM

That's a really weak argument. It sounds like the "gays are born that way so homosexual acts are not immoral" argument.

Some Catholics are greatly impacted by the vision of the pope as the "Vicar of Christ" and they never shake it.

Any vision that is not truth should be shaken, especially one that impacts you greatly.

It's not an argument. It's a statement about there being no compelling alternative to Paul N.

Ohio

03-26-2013, 03:13 PM

Any vision that is not truth should be shaken, especially one that impacts you greatly.
The Lord said everything will be shaken. The recent quarantine was a huge shaking of the ground of oneness. It flunked every test. The lawsuits in every city are the proof of its dismal failure as some pertinent "vision."

People are willing to die for the real visions of the faith, all other pretensions end up in court.

Ohio

03-26-2013, 03:18 PM

Ohio, this is surprising to me. Why would people come to a conference led by PN, and not by TC? PN is an elder in Cleveland (although he lives in a different city - is he one with the Christians there?). He's not a particularly gifted speaker. Is there an interest in hearing him speak about the ground of locality? Aren't the regular saints kind of tired of this topic, since it has so obviously failed on a large scale?

If they truly wanted to practice their version of the "oneness of the Body," shouldn't they have repented and stayed with the rest of the local churches? When the "Body" excommunicated TC, shouldn't they have agreed with that to "keep the oneness"? I don't understand how they can't see through the hypocrisy. Their version of oneness has failed completely. Why can't they admit that it's a false doctrine to begin with?

It was Neider's burden, but obviously others will speak also. They will have 3 times to meet together, including the Table and a dinner. I would guess that someone like Rex Beck would be asked to begin sharing, since he is not on board with the teaching of locality, and this will provide a good facade of the oneness of the body. How good is that? If you don't have the real thing, at least try to fake it!

As to living in another city, and yet being an elder of the church in Cleveland, methinks you are taking this thing too seriously. Or perhaps Neider will catch a vision and move back into the city of Cleveland. When I grew up, Cleveland's West Park (http://www.westparkhistory.com/)neighborhood was a great place to live.

You can't understand how they can't see through the hypocrisy? I guess that's the true nature of hypocrisy -- every one else sees it but you.

Neider feels that they are losing too many saints these days, and this conference is supposed to restore the saints to their initial vision of Christ and the Church.

ZNPaaneah

03-26-2013, 03:39 PM

The Lord said everything will be shaken. The recent quarantine was a huge shaking of the ground of oneness. It flunked every test. The lawsuits in every city are the proof of its dismal failure as some pertinent "vision."

People are willing to die for the real visions of the faith, all others pretensions end up in court.

Just proves that this teaching is built on shifting sand and not solid truth.

Ohio

03-26-2013, 03:48 PM

Just proves that this teaching is built on shifting sand and not solid truth.

Kind of like New Orleans. After Katrina hit, scientists determined that NOLA was sinking 3 times faster than they thought it was. That didn't stop them from rebuilding, did it?

Ohio

03-26-2013, 04:32 PM

I said something like this before but perhaps bears repeating.

The Bible is not silent on the need for vision. I do not think you will disagree with that though others might.

The question becomes whether a vision is a biblical one or in this case whether it is the same apostolic vision Paul had. Many believe they understand what that vision was and at least several believe that vision inextricably linked to the ground of locality (not you, of course). So it is not a puzzle at all to anyone who believes they have seen that vision and the wagging of heads of unbelievers will not persuade them in the least. A rehash of the discussion about the difference between vision and bible teaching is not needed here but it is apparent that the vision of the ground of locality impacts some people so deeply that they never shake it.

And why should they?

Maybe the pendulum swung too far and a correction is in the works. If it is of God then it would not be a step backward.

Since there has not been any increase among the LC's that cling to that old "vision" of the ground of oneness, with members leaving on a regular basis, I think they have been taking steps backward for far too long.

If Neider and company really wanted to do something for the ground of oneness, don't you think a reconciliation with the likes of John Myer would be a good starting point. Shouldn't Neider and the other Cleveland elders sit down prayerfully with Chuck Debelek and allow him to voice his concerns and the reasons he departed from their fellowship? Why don't they take a look at Debelek's school staff and see how many former members are now there? Why don't they begin to seriously ask themselves why the Debelek's are so well loved and respected by all who know them, and yet it is TC alone who is revered by them? Why is it that the real wall of division between those still in the LC and those who have left is not some teaching but TC himself? Why is it that no one who sees TC in action ever learns how to treat his brother with respect, one of the key ingredients of brotherly love and kindness?

My conclusion is that the ground of oneness has transformed many dear brothers and sisters from Philadelphia into Laodicea. Laodicea has many wonderful things like truth, vision, and teachings, but brotherly love is not one of them. II Peter 1.5-8 is quite significant here ...
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence knowledge, and in your knowledge self-control, and in your self-control perseverance, and in your perseverance godliness, and in your godliness brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Note how love and brotherly kindness should not be just how we began our journey, but the result of healthy leadership and all diligence.

Cassidy

03-26-2013, 04:55 PM

Since there has not been any increase among the LC's that cling to that old "vision" of the ground of oneness, with members leaving on a regular basis, I think they have been taking steps backward for far too long.

If Neider and company really wanted to do something for the ground of oneness, don't you think a reconciliation with the likes of John Myer would be a good starting point. Shouldn't Neider and the other Cleveland elders sit down prayerfully with Chuck Debelek and allow him to voice his concerns and the reasons he departed from their fellowship? Why don't they take a look at Debelek's school staff and see how many former members are now there? Why don't they begin to seriously ask themselves why the Debelek's are so well loved and respected by all who know them, and yet it is TC alone who is revered by them? Why is it that the real wall of division between those still in the LC and those who have left is not some teaching but TC himself? Why is it that no one who sees TC in action ever learns how to treat his brother with respect, one of the key ingredients of brotherly love and kindness?

My conclusion is that the ground of oneness has transformed many dear brothers and sisters from Philadelphia into Laodicea. Laodicea has many wonderful things like truth, vision, and teachings, but brotherly love is not one of them. II Peter 1.5-8 is quite significant here ...
Note how love and brotherly kindness should not be just how we began our journey, but the result of healthy leadership and all diligence.

Ohio,

Your conclusion is perhaps based on the premise that all the previous situations were standing on the ground of oneness, at least in a biblical sense. Or you mean that those relations were not really based on the scriptural ground of oneness. Or maybe you mean that there is no such thing as a ground of oneness.

Yet, whatever you believe you make the assumption that a true ground of oneness would result in reconciliation with everyone regardless of the ground they stand on. Of course, that cannot be true. If one is not standing on the ground of oneness then they will not be in the fellowship of oneness because they exclude themselves.

OBW

03-26-2013, 04:56 PM

I don't know what this NOLA is. The Crescent City is called Nawlins. :yep: (And it really needs to be three syllables — or 2 and a half. But if you write them out, it gets to be too much.)

Ohio

03-26-2013, 05:03 PM

I don't know what this NOLA is. The Crescent City is called Nawlins. :yep: (And it really needs to be three syllables — or 2 and a half. But if you write them out, it gets to be too much.)

Google it or use Bing -- it is an acronym.

Unregistered

03-26-2013, 05:18 PM

As to living in another city, and yet being an elder of the church in Cleveland, methinks you are taking this thing too seriously. Or perhaps Neider will catch a vision and move back into the city of Cleveland.

The reason I mentioned this is to me it's a great example of the unworkability of locality. Here you have an elder of the church in one city living in another city, leading a church conference on the "ground of locality." If he values locality so much, shouldn't he live in the city where he's an elder? But what about all those Christians in the city where he actually lives? Shouldn't there be a "local church" there to express the oneness? Of course, PN probably could raise up a church in his city, if TC allowed him to.

None of this matters to me, doctrinally speaking, because I don't believe in "locality" and I don't impose it on anyone. But if you're going to hold to a doctrine, you should apply it to yourself first.

Neider feels that they are losing too many saints these days, and this conference is supposed to restore the saints to their initial vision of Christ and the Church.

Losing them to who? Has he ever considered the possibility that oneness is of the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom? Could it be that the people who leave are following Christ, and experiencing freedom from the bondage of a false doctrine?

I realize you know the answers, Ohio, but I just don't understand why all the recent turmoils and conflicts haven't completely exposed the deception of the "local ground" teaching to the Cleveland saints. Jesus said, "You shall know a tree by its fruit." What's the fruit of the local church as practiced by both Anaheim and Cleveland? Lawsuits, excommunications, spiritual abuse, and damaged members.

If the "local ground" is true, and the Cleveland elders want to speak it to the saints, what do they believe about all those LSM churches? Are they no longer on the ground? Are only the Midwest churches and those affiliated with TC on the proper ground? If they believe that, it's a repetition of the same divisive and sectarian spirit.

Thanks for listening to me vent.

Ohio

03-26-2013, 05:49 PM

TLFisher

03-26-2013, 06:16 PM

ZNPaaneah

03-26-2013, 07:07 PM

If Neider and company really wanted to do something for the ground of oneness, don't you think a reconciliation with the likes of John Myer would be a good starting point.

Wow, is that the burden for this conference? Shouldn't TC be there too?

Cassidy

03-26-2013, 07:28 PM

Nothing personal, my friend, but based on every event I have witnessed and studied in my 30+ years inside the LC, and almost a decade outside the LC since I left, this conclusion of yours is pure and unadulterated gobbledygook, which M-W defines as "wordy and generally unintelligible jargon." It may make sense to you, but not one instance provides it with the stamp of validity. Take your explanation of events to a thousand learned Christians on the street, and not one will understand what you are talking about.

No one has ever excluded themselves from the fellowship because they were not standing on the ground of oneness. It just has not happened that way.

Ohio,

There are several fallacies in your argument. Your first fallacy of argumentation is that you have been there and I have not therefore you are the expert and I am not. Then, you've layered that with a second fallacy in argumentation that goes along the line of "I don't understand, it's all gobbledygook to me, therefore it can't possibly be true". You have used that with at least one other poster recently. Your third is that you suggest that you could know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" think. Since that is not possible it is a fallacy to introduce this to shore up your case.

It would be equally fallacious for me to argue that I have been there longer than you so I won't go down that path and neither of us know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" would think so we can ignore that one too.

However, I'll will clarify the point about the ground of oneness. The ground of oneness does not embrace those who take just any basis for fellowship. Rather the ground or stand or basis, pick your term, is oneness. Your notion that Paul N. would need to embrace everyone on your reconciliation list regardless of their stand to prove your idea of the ground of oneness is fanciful. It is not even logical. The reason it is not logical because either you choose to take that particular ground, stand, or basis, or you don't. If you don't you exclude yourself from that basis, that is, you have a different basis for fellowship. This is not hard to understand so I do not accept your argument that it is gobbledygook, on the contrary, that just seems like you are unable or unwilling to make a compelling argument.

I would say the ground of oneness is a narrow way and not the broad one you suggest.

Ohio

03-26-2013, 07:31 PM

Ohio

03-26-2013, 08:38 PM

Ohio, There are several fallacies in your argument. Your first fallacy of argumentation is that you have been there and I have not therefore you are the expert and I am not.
Not at all Cassidy. I made no comment about your expertise concerning the Recovery. I only mentioned my tenure so that the reader knows that I was once steeped in that system, and now have left. My comment was more about what I know to be true. It's obvious to me that you are more than familiar with Recovery teachings and history.
Then, you've layered that with a second fallacy in argumentation that goes along the line of "I don't understand therefore it can't possibly be true".
Not at all friend. I do understand what you posted completely. I spent many years there and am well versed in their ideology. I had hoped my point was clear. I am saying that your reasoning here is "wordy and generally unintelligible jargon." You and I may have learned this from the ministry of WL and the Blendeds, but now I am telling you that, though it sounds spiritual and intelligent, it actually makes no sense to the Bible-reading public. It is simply insider jargon designed to deceive us. Your wordy instruction has never matched the facts of history.

Your third is that you cannot possibly know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" think therefore it is pointless to introduce this to shore up your case.

It would be equally fallacious for me to argue that I have been there longer than you so I won't go down that path and neither of us know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" would think so we can ignore that one too.
Now you're nit-pickin. I am saying that no Christian I ever met outside the Recovery speaks like this. These concepts are totally foreign to the body of Christ, except for exclusive sects like the Recovery or the Brethren. The reason they are foreign to the body of Christ is because there is no Scriptural support for them. If you did have some support, you would now be dumping that on me.

Try to understand that WL made up these so-called "principles" to justify his numerous and spurious quarantines. John Darby used these same principles in the 19th century to justify his actions in expelling Newton, Muller, and anyone else who refused to goosestep to his marching orders. Read Brethren history and you'll understand.

However, I'll will clarify the point about the ground of oneness. The ground of oneness does not embrace those who take just any basis for fellowship. Rather the ground or stand or basis, pick your term, is oneness. Your notion that Paul N. would need to embrace everyone on your reconciliation list regardless of their stand to prove your idea of the ground of oneness is fanciful. It is not even logical. The reason it is not logical because either you choose to take that particular ground, stand, or basis, or you don't. If you don't, you exclude yourself. This is not hard to understand so I do not accept your argument that it is gobbledygook, on the contrary, that just sounds like you are unable or unwilling to make a compelling argument.

I would say the ground of oneness is a narrow path and not the broad one you suggest.
The narrow way is not the ground of oneness, it is the way that leads to life. Our ground is not oneness with the body, it is Christ. Listen to what Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4.1-6
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. Listen to Paul's admonition "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love." This is so absolutely contrary to the intolerant and judgmental attitude of WL. This section spells out the fundamentals of our oneness in the Spirit, and Lee's "ground of locality" is no where to be found. So it's no wonder that the Recovery today has become so intolerant and judgmental like her founder. They must be intolerant in order to defend their extra-biblical standards which are applied to all Christians.

Look at our recent history. The Blendeds applied these false standards firstly to TC and the GLA, and then to DYL and Brazil, quarantining and shaming them publicly. Then local discontents become trained by LSM operatives at DCP in order to confiscate church assets via lawsuits. This occurred church after church, while the saints violated clear Biblical mandates with impunity. LSM used their phony principles about "the ground" to divide churches and shipwreck the saints in their conscience, and you want me still to believe that this way is the "narrow path."

Then TC applies these same phony standards to John Myer in Columbus. I'm telling you the system is sick. They absolutely need to reconcile. Reconciliation alone will deliver them from the blindness of their exclusive ways. Start by loving the brothers the Lord put you with! Isn't loving your neighbor the 2nd commandment? Start by dropping these phony ordinances which the Lord abolished on the cross. Don't talk about loving the new ones you just met, how about the ones you were with for 10, 20, 30, 40 years?

Ohio

03-26-2013, 08:38 PM

Wow, is that the burden for this conference? Shouldn't TC be there too?

I think TC is out of the country.

Cassidy

03-26-2013, 08:44 PM

-2

Thanks for your response and clarifications, Ohio. I will read it a few times before responding.

Ohio

03-26-2013, 08:54 PM

Losing them to who? Has he ever considered the possibility that oneness is of the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom? Could it be that the people who leave are following Christ, and experiencing freedom from the bondage of a false doctrine?

I realize you know the answers, Ohio, but I just don't understand why all the recent turmoils and conflicts haven't completely exposed the deception of the "local ground" teaching to the Cleveland saints. Jesus said, "You shall know a tree by its fruit." What's the fruit of the local church as practiced by both Anaheim and Cleveland? Lawsuits, excommunications, spiritual abuse, and damaged members.

If the "local ground" is true, and the Cleveland elders want to speak it to the saints, what do they believe about all those LSM churches? Are they no longer on the ground? Are only the Midwest churches and those affiliated with TC on the proper ground? If they believe that, it's a repetition of the same divisive and sectarian spirit.

Thanks for listening to me vent.

I'm hoping my old friend Cassidy will also listen to you "vent."

I have found that most of us "old-timers" are just unwilling or unable to objectively reconsider some of these things we still hold sacred. Unfortunately LC leaders like Lee and Chu were able to convince us that they and their ministry were the source of the blessings of God which we abundantly enjoyed in our youth. Instead of boasting in God our Savior, we boasted in men, and this in turn caused these men to think more highly of themselves than they ought to.

Perhaps events will occur at this conference to expose this teaching as a fraud, thus enabling these dear saints to be freed at last from the leaven of Lee.

OBW

03-27-2013, 07:25 AM

Google it or use Bing -- it is an acronym.I know what it is. New Orleans, LA. Can't put a little levity into anything anymore.

Ohio

03-27-2013, 07:36 AM

I know what it is. New Orleans, LA. Can't put a little levity into anything anymore.

Isn't Texas just a big suburb of Nawlins? :)

ZNPaaneah

03-27-2013, 08:22 AM

I know what it is. New Orleans, LA. Can't put a little levity into anything anymore.

Are you serious? Who would go to NO without a big levy. If I don't have a billion dollar levy no way I'm going to that city.

Midwest bro

03-27-2013, 01:00 PM

Midwest bro, yours was an open-ended request for information, and I'm not sure if what I said helped. Feedback?

Ohio, thanks very much for the info. It was definitely helpful. I wasn't aware that there had been so much financial support years ago to TC's work, or that it had run dry.

By the way, I also posted #331 above and forgot to sign my "name."

One more question out of curiosity: Are the Cleveland saints able to interact with the LSM-affiliated saints, or do they avoid each other? (I don't mean the leaders, I just mean the "regular" saints.)

Ohio

03-27-2013, 01:41 PM

Ohio, thanks very much for the info. It was definitely helpful. I wasn't aware that there had been so much financial support years ago to TC's work, or that it had run dry.

By the way, I also posted #331 above and forgot to sign my "name."

One more question out of curiosity: Are the Cleveland saints able to interact with the LSM-affiliated saints, or do they avoid each other? (I don't mean the leaders, I just mean the "regular" saints.)

It depends. There are some brothers who just couldn't talk to each other because it got so acrimonious. I pray they could get past that.

Some families have members which are pro-LSM, pro-TC, and pro-Christ, with these ones no longer wishing to associate with either with either TC or the Blendeds. My family is like this. And some of the ones who have nothing to do with TC or the Blendeds have branched out into Pentecostal style meetings. It's like we are scattered to the wind, but it's wonderful. We are of Christ, and not "of men." We are one in Spirit. It may not look as homogenous as it once was, with get-togethers at the trainings and conferences, but the recent quarantine and subsequent lawsuits served to expose lots of false things about the Recovery.

Many of the family connections have actually prevented more animosity. It's hard to "hate those guys" when one of them is your daughter or your Dad or your wife. I do know that some of the initial breeches have been mended by love. Everyone got tested here. Ones like John Myer got manifested as being the most mature, since their reactions most closely resembled Christ.

Midwest bro

03-28-2013, 10:19 AM

Ohio

03-28-2013, 08:26 PM

Thanks for the info, Ohio. I hope you don't mind answering one more question.

Several years ago, before all heck broke loose (the quarantine, etc.), there were many younger "full-timers" located in different churches in Ohio. I don't feel like it's fair to name someone without permission, or without them knowing it, so I'll use initials like you do.

There was SR in Lorain, DE in Mansfield, IB in Westlake, GU in Pittsburgh, CR in Detroit, MS in Cleveland, and another MS who moved to Cleveland from Detroit. There were a bunch of others, partly because of TC's trainings.

Where are all these brothers now? Did they all go back to get jobs? Are they meeting with the local churches anymore?

MS in Cleveland teaches (http://birchwoodschool.org/cms/bws/page.html?p_name=Teaching%20Staff) at the Birchwood School founded by CD. Take at look at this recent interview (http://www.wkyc.com/life/programming/Live_on_Lakeside/article/277683/442/Desiray-Cross---Birchwood-School-11013) on local TV.

MS from Detroit now serves in the church in Cleveland with the young people (http://thechurchincleveland.weebly.com/young-people.html).

CR in Detroit moved to Westland, MI and began to meet on his own. I'm not sure if he left on great terms. The church had a website for a while, but it is down. In the website, he linked to some Open Brethren, but not the LC's. I believe he is now teaching again. Many saints have told me personally how much they loved CR, and now much he cared for them.

CR's brother DR, who also served in Cleve for a while, has moved back to SE PA last I heard.

IB is working in Columbus. TC made his departure very difficult.

GU is working at the Univ of Pittsburg.

SN who came with GU is now working in Cleveland.

JN who also came with GU is now working in Pittsburgh.

DE is in Mansfield. NM moved there recently from Detroit.

SR not sure. I know he was from MN and those saints split in half during the quarantine with PG in Brooklyn Park with LSM and DS on the UMinn campus with TC.

Midwest bro

03-29-2013, 02:14 PM

Ohio, thanks for the info.

Peter Debelak

03-30-2013, 02:44 PM

Remember that team of young full-timers headed up by Neider's own son? They started a church in Chicago-land after the Gospel Odyssey which landed in the LSM camp. Then they relocated to the Pittsburg area and completely fizzled out in discouragement during the quarantine.

A little less like a "fizzle" than some light and new direction. There's a difference, but which can often appear identical.

Cheers, Ohio.

Hope you are well.

Peter Debelak

03-30-2013, 03:00 PM

Ohio,

Your conclusion is perhaps based on the premise that all the previous situations were standing on the ground of oneness, at least in a biblical sense. Or you mean that those relations were not really based on the scriptural ground of oneness. Or maybe you mean that there is no such thing as a ground of oneness.

Yet, whatever you believe you make the assumption that a true ground of oneness would result in reconciliation with everyone regardless of the ground they stand on. Of course, that cannot be true. If one is not standing on the ground of oneness then they will not be in the fellowship of oneness because they exclude themselves. (emphasis added)

I've been away for a while, but this caught my eye, because of how familiar it sounded. It hit me in this visceral way, like waking up in a cold sweat.

It is that existential panic of confronting circular reasoning. Of being caught in a spiritual catch-22. You know, like your "spiritual authority" contradicting what you feel certain is a Lord's leading - which is exactly what that "spiritual authority" taught you to listen to.

Conceptually, I agree that if a group of folks are actually "one" with the Lord's leading, they will have good fellowship and if any one of them is NOT "one" with the Lord's leading, they will be at odds with the group.

That said, a problem enters in when one group PRESUMES that whatever they or their leadership does IS the LORD'S MOVE or the LORD'S leading. At that point, the SOURCE of the "Lord's Leading" becomes the group leadership, and not the Spirit, because no one entertains the possibility that the Spirit would do ANYTHING apart from that group's "feeling."

So then you get a brother who has a genuine leading from the Lord to do X, Y, or Z. The "group" thinks he would be better used by serving in a different capacity. That brother obeys his spirit. The others distance themselves or implicitly reject him.

Where in all of this is the "ground" suppose to fit in? Its just such an odd concept IN PRACTICE that it only causes confusion and, most often, is really just an excuse for a group to use THEMSELVES as a proxy for the Spirit.

Thoughts?

Peter

Peter Debelak

03-30-2013, 03:12 PM

The christian vision is of Jesus Christ and arguably even is Jesus Christ. Regarding the church, Jesus said that when we gather in His name, He will be there with us. He did not specify some extra vision besides His name.

"So simple even a cave man could do it."

Amen. A simple vision for complex beings. The profound difficulty in our daily salvation is simplifying beyond our interpretations and egos.

Spend any amount of time with semi-open people, and you see how broken and hurt most of humanity is. Let people talk long enough, and they know they need a Savior. We are broken beings.

He restores us, through a life lived with Him. This isn't different, necessarily from the "God's economy" of Witness Lee. But the daily petition is somewhat different. The dailyl activity is some what different. The attitude toward others is somewhat different.

The "vision" might actually be the same, but the life lived out from that vision can be very, very different. Which begs the question: should the emphasis be on a nuanced and complicated vision, or on learning how to be simple, humble, faithful people - with a heart to listen and care for others? Letting HIM do the profound spiritual work that our spiritual words pale in comparison to.

Thoughts?

Peter

Ohio

03-30-2013, 06:28 PM

A little less like a "fizzle" than some light and new direction. There's a difference, but which can often appear identical.

Cheers, Ohio.

Hope you are well.

Yo Bro ... long time no see ... please step right in and correct me ... you know way more than I do.

What's happenin' to your Buckeyes?!

Peter Debelak

03-30-2013, 06:42 PM

Yo Bro ... long time no see ... please step right in and correct me ... you know way more than I do.

What's happenin' to your Buckeyes?!

Didn't mean to overstate. There was definitely some..."tiring" of the LC politics. Bit that often leads to a renewed inner wrestling...

And regarding the buckeyes... There's still a whole half left. :)

Ohio

03-30-2013, 06:57 PM

Didn't mean to overstate. There was definitely some..."tiring" of the LC politics. Bit that often leads to a renewed inner wrestling...

Didn't mean to disparage any of those brothers or their families. I pray for the best for all of them. I just know how discouraging it is to see loved ones fighting ... it can take the wind out of your sails. The Lord said all things would be shaken, and they surely were. For me personally, I began to question everything I had once taken for granted.

Peter Debelak

03-30-2013, 07:19 PM

Didn't mean to disparage any of those brothers or their families. I pray for the best for all of them. I just know how discouraging it is to see loved ones fighting ... it can take the wind out of your sails. The Lord said all things would be shaken, and they surely were. For me personally, I began to question everything I had once taken for granted.

You haven't disparaged in the least, Ohio. You're a source for intimate (and accurate) history AND for an experience of real wrestling with once held truths.

Always enjoy your histories and your insights. Keep on, brother.

Peter

UntoHim

03-30-2013, 08:45 PM

If one is not standing on the ground of oneness then they will not be in the fellowship of oneness because they exclude themselves. Of course this excludes about 99.9 % of the Body of Christ because they either have never heard of Witness Lee, or have heard of him and what he taught and disagree that his teachings are biblical or that they cause Christians to be one. Oh...just in case our friend Cassidy hasn't read my posts for the last 10 years or so....this takes into account the fact that "the ground of oneness" in the Local Church of Witness Lee is the person and work of Witness Lee.
"So simple even a cave man could do it.":whack:

countmeworthy

03-30-2013, 11:22 PM

I will clarify the point about the ground of oneness. The ground of oneness does not embrace those who take just any basis for fellowship. Rather the ground or stand or basis, pick your term, is oneness......

I would say the ground of oneness is a narrow way and not the broad one you suggest.

Shalom & Blessings Cassidy,

When I first got saved and became part of the LC, the saints "in my locality", were reading and studying the Word in the KJ or NASB. The fundamental Truths ingrained into us were the Assurance of Salvation, the Power of the Precious Blood of the Lamb, Sanctification through the Living Word and the Blood of Jesus and the church being the Body of Christ.

The Lord Jesus was the Ground of Oneness. This is why we chanted over and over "O Lord Jesus".

For my first 2 months in the LC, my fellowship with the saints and their fellowship with me revolved around Christ. The meetings were about the Word of God.

The ground of Oneness was Christ the Solid Rock. All other ground was sinking sand. We stood on THAT Ground.

But as I was introduced to the "Life study" messages, Brother Lee's teachings became the ground of oneness.

We stopped trusting the Holy Spirit, the Life Giving Spirit to open the eyes of our understanding. We relied on Witness Lee to reveal the Word of God to us. No one searched the scriptures for themselves as we are instructed in the Holy Bible.

After all WL was the apostle of the age. He was the "Paul" of our generation. WL was accountable to -NO ONE-. And God forbid, we found error in his teachings. That would bring about expulsion and create division in the church. In the end, the saints were stifled.

The ground of "oneness" became the "life studies", the RcV, and whatever Lee's "revelation" was. In the end, many left. Those that attempted to respectfully confront WL were ostracized. Couples divorced because of their allegience to Lee. Families were/are divided not for their stand for Christ but for their stand on being one with Lee and his teachings.

In 1975-76, there was no official "Lord's Recovery". We were the Local church and Christ and the church. The local churches under Lee's directive had elders and deacons but were on par with the saints. This was true in San Diego.

That is one aspect of the LC to this day I respected in retrospect. I have been to many a "church", where the pastor does not fellowship/mingle with the congregation. I do not know if this still holds true in the LRC today.

Regardless, that behavior no matter how good, is not the the basis of the ground of oness. Christ Jesus, the Living Word is and always will be the Solid Ground of our oneness, the Solid Ground we stand on. In being One with Him, the Body of Christ is fitly framed together.

You are correct in that the Ground of Oneness is narrow, for we must be crucified with Christ, dying to self, and resurrect with Him in Newness of Life.

Blessings and Peace in Christ Jesus,

Carol Garza

ZNPaaneah

03-31-2013, 08:49 AM

Shalom & Blessings Cassidy,

When I first got saved and became part of the LC, the saints "in my locality", were reading and studying the Word in the KJ or NASB. The fundamental Truths ingrained into us were the Assurance of Salvation, the Power of the Precious Blood of the Lamb, Sanctification through the Living Word and the Blood of Jesus and the church being the Body of Christ.

The Lord Jesus was the Ground of Oneness. This is why we chanted over and over "O Lord Jesus".

For my first 2 months in the LC, my fellowship with the saints and their fellowship with me revolved around Christ. The meetings were about the Word of God.

The ground of Oneness was Christ the Solid Rock. All other ground was sinking sand. We stood on THAT Ground.

But as I was introduced to the "Life study" messages, Brother Lee's teachings became the ground of oneness.

We stopped trusting the Holy Spirit, the Life Giving Spirit to open the eyes of our understanding. We relied on Witness Lee to reveal the Word of God to us. No one searched the scriptures for themselves as we are instructed in the Holy Bible.

After all WL was the apostle of the age. He was the "Paul" of our generation. WL was accountable to -NO ONE-. And God forbid, we found error in his teachings. That would bring about expulsion and create division in the church. In the end, the saints were stifled.

The ground of "oneness" became the "life studies", the RcV, and whatever Lee's "revelation" was. In the end, many left. Those that attempted to respectfully confront WL were ostracized. Couples divorced because of their allegience to Lee. Families were/are divided not for their stand for Christ but for their stand on being one with Lee and his teachings.

In 1975-76, there was no official "Lord's Recovery". We were the Local church and Christ and the church. The local churches under Lee's directive had elders and deacons but were on par with the saints. This was true in San Diego.

That is one aspect of the LC to this day I respected in retrospect. I have been to many a "church", where the pastor does not fellowship/mingle with the congregation. I do not know if this still holds true in the LRC today.

Regardless, that behavior no matter how good, is not the the basis of the ground of oness. Christ Jesus, the Living Word is and always will be the Solid Ground of our oneness, the Solid Ground we stand on. In being One with Him, the Body of Christ is fitly framed together.

You are correct in that the Ground of Oneness is narrow, for we must be crucified with Christ, dying to self, and resurrect with Him in Newness of Life.

Blessings and Peace in Christ Jesus,

Carol Garza

By definition WL's teachings cannot = the ground of oneness. An insignificant number of Christians are familiar with these teachings. If the LRC makes WL's teachings the metric by which we measure oneness then they have left the ground of oneness and are a division.

Ohio

04-03-2013, 07:07 PM

http://thechurchincleveland.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/7/5/3675146/1319212_orig.gif

We are pleased to announce a mini-conference over the weekend of April 6th and April 7th. All gatherings and meetings for the conference will be at 3170 Warren Rd, Cleveland Ohio 44111. This time will include fellowship and ministry by various serving brothers from the area concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment. We hope that by the Lord’s Grace we could all be unveiled, enlightened, and strengthened in our revelation during this time.
I understand that Cleveland has been frantically calling all the brothers in the region once favorable to them. Especially in churches where the leaders have distanced themselves from the manipulations and controls of both Anaheim and Cleveland, certain "select" brothers have been invited to this conference and special times of fellowship.

Is this any different than what Anaheim did 5 years ago in all the GLA churches, holding special conferences and training meetings to lure key brothers out from beneath their eldership in order to gain a stronghold in various LC's? When Anaheim used these ploys, Cleveland cried bloody murder. Now they are doing exactly the same.

So the "burden" of this conference has little to do with scriptural revelation or vision. It's all about "commitment." Commitment and alignment with Cleveland under the old format. How can this weekend's "ministry" edify these believers, if the featured topic is not even spelled out in the Bible? If they really wanted to equip the saints with this "recovered truth," one would think that Nigel Tomes would be invited, since he has written two excellent articles on this very topic. Cleveland has long complained that the Blendeds were always closed to any alternate views except their own. Where is their openness to fresh insight from the scripture now?

TC has always portrayed himself before the GLA brothers as the guardian of the pure word of God in the Recovery. He regularly pointed out Blended deviations from the truth. Now the hypocrisy in Cleveland is really exposed. All that "pure word" talk was great, since it enlarged his following before the quarantine. Now in the aftermath, "pure word" talk is not faring so well. In fact, their camp is shrinking as fast as the Blendeds. Hence the burden to leave the "pure word" and revive an old sacrament, the ground of oneness, supposedly the source of all "blessing."

ZNPaaneah

04-04-2013, 07:19 AM

Fascinating. It is like watching the unfolding of the LSM franchise in slow motion.

Ohio

04-04-2013, 10:37 AM

Fascinating. It is like watching the unfolding of the LSM franchise in slow motion.

When I first began to study Recovery history, and not the pseudo-history presented to the faithful insiders, I was really surprised to learn that the storms I passed thru were no different from what happened in Taiwan and mainland China. That was a bit of an eye-opener. Eventually I had to let the facts of history detox me of all the history I heard from WL.

So when our past is no different than our distant past, then we should not be surprised when our near future is little different than our recent past. Such is the unraveling of events in Cleveland and Toronto.

ZNPaaneah

04-04-2013, 04:55 PM

When I first began to study Recovery history, and not the pseudo-history presented to the faithful insiders, I was really surprised to learn that the storms I passed thru were no different from what happened in Taiwan and mainland China. That was a bit of an eye-opener. Eventually I had to let the facts of history detox me of all the history I heard from WL.

So when our past is no different than our distant past, then we should not be surprised when our near future is little different than our recent past. Such is the unraveling of events in Cleveland and Toronto.

They seem different to me.

1. We now have an account of WN that is not flattering, does not depict him as a martyr, and certainly undercuts the legitimacy of some kind of MOTA. I did not have this. By all accounts WN was a saint and hence his closest coworker could be given a certain level of trust.
2. We now have an internet which makes finding these things and learning about them free and easy. Will everyone check the internet? Perhaps not, but I expect a great many of those who first contact the LRC and their families will. The LRC focuses their gospel on the college campuses. How many of those students and their friends don't have internet access? Probably 0. There is no doubt that had I had this when I was first approached I would have discovered everything the internet had to say on WL before attending one meeting. If not me, then one of my roommates would have done the research.
3. WL's sins are readily available for all to read. Even when I was in the LRC you could never have learned any of this, even asking a question would have put you under suspicion. Today, any new members can google these same questions.
4. When I was in the LRC we had to deal with the God Men and the Mind Benders when we preached the gospel. Hence the justification for the lawsuits. It was difficult. Today look at what you would have to contend with. If things were bad then they must be awful now.
5. There is a long list of reputable brothers who have left. Although they were smeared I doubt that many of us on this forum still give those defaming remarks much weight.
6. Nigel Tomes is quarantined not from one faction but two factions of the LRC and yet he seems to be a member in good standing in his church with a ministry. That was unheard of when I first came into the LRC. So then, how many factions of the LRC are there? Is there a different faction in Hong Kong, Brazil, GLA, Anaheim, Toronto, Africa? That is very different from when I was first in the LRC. The point is, there is no powerful "center" anymore and there is no "prevailing ministry" anymore.
7. When I first came into the LRC we would travel around the country and fellowship with other churches. We went from Texas to Anaheim, Florida, the North East, northern California, Taiwan, etc. Can anyone do that anymore? That is something that has changed.

It may seem like more of the same, but in reality it looks like the level of decay is far worse now than before.

Perhaps moving from WN to WL was one level of decay. Then WL moving from Taiwan to the US was a second level of decay. Then Daystar brought in a third level of decay. PL brought in a fourth level of decay. The Blendeds were evidence that the end was near because there was no one of any credibility to take over the ministry. The quarantine of TC was actually evidence of the decay because TC didn't feel the need to toe the line. Likewise with the Quarantine in S. America. But likewise, people are leaving TC just as TC left.

It used to be that there was a "new" ministry with conferences and trainings that you wanted to go to. That is no longer the case.

It used to be there was a large network of churches that you could fellowship with. Again, that is becoming less and less the case.

It used to be there was a prevailing gospel work and the churches were growing in the US. Is that still the case? I cannot believe it. What I see is that year by year there are fewer and fewer churches that are still affiliated with the LSM.

TLFisher

04-05-2013, 12:53 PM

In order to properly assess the Recovery, we must examine this matter of "vision," so crucial to her membership. It is a word of great import, used regularly by LRC leaders, yet all their rhetoric does not match their practice. The rhetoric of vision always takes us back to "the ground of oneness," and what Christian out there will dare to say that "oneness" is not an important feature of our church and our personal walk in the Lord?

"Vision" and "oneness"; two terms used in LC fellowship regardless of geographic regions. As brothers and sisters in Christ, we all have oneness in Christ. Apart from Christ, we do not have oneness. When distinctions of ministries becomes essential for fellowship, the oneness becomes "we love those that love the ministry". See Luke 6:32; If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. Talk about vision. Is that vision according to the Word being revealed to you or is it vision according to a ministry? When I read the Word, that is my relationship to vision.

Midwest bro

04-05-2013, 01:33 PM

Ohio, are you able to secretly infiltrate this weekend's conference? It would be fun to hear about it.

Ohio

04-05-2013, 02:14 PM

"Vision" and "oneness"; two terms used in LC fellowship regardless of geographic regions. As brothers and sisters in Christ, we all have oneness in Christ. Apart from Christ, we do not have oneness. When distinctions of ministries becomes essential for fellowship, the oneness becomes "we love those that love the ministry". See Luke 6:32; If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. Talk about vision. Is that vision according to the Word being revealed to you or is it vision according to a ministry? When I read the Word, that is my relationship to vision.

Titus Chu used to often refer to I Cor 12.5 "And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord." He regularly used this verse in context with the narrow-mindedness of the Blended brothers. His most ardent supporters around the GLA used this to show how Titus was more open and receptive to the ministry of others than those provincial bigots at LSM.

But what has his track record been with other gifted brothers God has placed him with? One by one they have parted ways with Titus. Nearly not one gifted worker, with his own "variety of ministry" has ever remained with Titus. Titus simply cannot accommodate any ideas other than his own. All the talk about Titus having "changed, become more receptive, respectful of others, accommodating, yada yada was mere lip service.

Titus and Nigel have been together for 40 years, and now they can't get along. John Myer and Titus were together for 25 years and now they can't get along. Jim Reetzke and Bill Barker in Chicago 40 plus years. Timothy Feng 40 years. Benjamen Chen of NYC since 1953. Chuck Debelak since 1977. The list goes on and on and on and on.

Ohio

04-05-2013, 05:50 PM

What about the Brazilians? The Dong Yu Lan group seems to be quite aggressive about spreading their "kingdom". They are quite active in the North-east, including Canada (also Florida). What camp are they with? Cleveland?

Dong Yu Lan of Brazil has been marketing his books in North America. Their strategy is to use Bookstore / Coffee Houses (perhaps with some good Brazilian high mountain arabica coffee.) The website for their Miami location is Bookafe America (http://bookafeamerica.com/), A Place of Prayer.

Their Portuguese website lists locations in numerous countries. In the USA, they have a location in Little Havana, Miami, Florida and Pooler, near Savannah, Georgia. In Canada, they have one location in Toronto.
http://i50.tinypic.com/10p625f.jpg

This is the storefront of Bookafe in Toronto, ON

Here is their website. (http://www.bookafe.com.br/) If you look closely you can see Dong's name on the advertised books.

One more "local church" standing on the ground of oneness in Toronto!

Unregistered

04-06-2013, 05:25 AM

Dong Yu Lan of Brazil has been marketing his books in North America. Their strategy is to use Bookstore / Coffee Houses

Their Portuguese website lists locations in numerous countries. In the USA, they have a location in Little Havana, Miami, Florida and Pooler, near Savannah, Georgia. In Canada, they have one location in Toronto.

They just opened a Bookafe store in Framingham, Massachusetts. They approach local pastors of immigrant congregations and try to make them "colporters", which means "peddlers". It seems to be all about moving their "ministry" product; not about God, the Bible, or the fellowship of Jesus Christ.

Ohio

04-06-2013, 09:02 AM

They just opened a Bookafe store in Framingham, Massachusetts. They approach local pastors of immigrant congregations and try to make them "colporters", which means "peddlers". It seems to be all about moving their "ministry" product; not about God, the Bible, or the fellowship of Jesus Christ.

That's a new word -- Colporteur is a peddler of devotional literature, a hawker of books, one who travels to sell or publicize Bibles, religious tracts, etc.

Sounds like Bibles for America, which is really Witness Lee footnotes for America.

Framingham, MA is near Newton, MA. Aren't Terry Kroft and Silas Wu still there? Terry used to be in London, Ontario many moons ago. They are definitely not LSMers any more, in fact, the church in Cambridge down the road from them, won't talk to them any more. Perhaps Newton is as favorable to Dong Yu Lan as London is. I saw London's website, and the whole church went down to Brazil a few years ago.

Here is a Portuguese language prayer gathering to "Inaugurate the Bookafe in Framingham. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2NVrtBct9E)" Here's another video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_IEbKFU-xI) filled with exhortations. They are definitely Local church folks with all the "Amen's." They are also fairly tech savvy in Brazil, since every one seems to be recording the same gathering on a smart phone. This promotional video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=hV53zRBgzLM) in Brazil features all their books and a sampling of available meals. Looks like the Brazilians like their french fries too!

It seems like the marketing outreach arm of the "kingdom of Dong" is far more developed than Witness Lee's or Titus Chu's ever dreamed of, and is now situated to launch their products globally. So it's no wonder the Blendeds had them quarantined.

Ohio

04-06-2013, 09:13 AM

Ohio, are you able to secretly infiltrate this weekend's conference? It would be fun to hear about it.

There's not a chance I could be incognito*, especially when all the good stuff occurs in the brothers' meetings. I'd pay dearly to see John Myer and Nigel Tomes give a "testimony" in order to "support" these messages.

I think an open debate would actually serve all the saints well. Why close your doors to dissenting voices? Why silence diverse points of view? Let everyone see who is standing on a Rock, and who is standing on sinking sand.

Cleveland will probably make the messages available for sale, and post notes in their latest Fellowship Journal.

.

*After I started posting on the Berean forum "incognito," the former moderator there Matt Anderson came to town to visit me and some other connections he had. When he showed up at the Lord's Table meeting & Love feast talking to me and introducing himself, the proverbial cat was out of the bag. That day every leader and worker in the GLA knew my identity. I decided it was the Lord's way to keep me fair and honest.

Actually my first post on the forums was a request concerning the book Thread of Gold. Not being the most creative of guys, I saw another poster had taken the moniker "Arizona," and lights went off within. I assumed that internet folks would rather know where I'm from, than have some catchy name like Igzy. :hysterical:

Unregistered

04-06-2013, 10:44 AM

Framingham, MA is near Newton, MA. Aren't Terry Kroft and Silas Wu still there? Terry used to be in London, Ontario many moons ago. They are definitely not LSMers any more, in fact, the church in Cambridge down the road from them, won't talk to them any more. Perhaps Newton is as favorable to Dong Yu Lan as London is.

Newton, MA back to affiliation with Cambridge and Boston. Silas Wu no longer a leader. Terry Kropf to Ontario to help LSM there. Brasilians long gone.

Ohio

04-06-2013, 11:25 AM

Newton, MA back to affiliation with Cambridge and Boston. Silas Wu no longer a leader. Terry Kropf to Ontario to help LSM there. Brasilians long gone.

Interesting!

So all greater Boston has united under the Blendeds to expel any trace of Dong or Chu?

And the Framingham Bookafe is already history?

Is that what you are saying?

Unregistered

04-06-2013, 12:12 PM

the Framingham Bookafe is already history?

Is that what you are saying?

No. Framingham Bookafe is new, are Brasilians who left Newton. Newton is LSM, Framingham is Arvore Da Vida (Dong Yu Lan).

UntoHim

04-06-2013, 02:31 PM

Hey unregistered (of the last few posts), would you please consider registering for the Forum. You could use a moniker to protect your identity.
This way your posts will appear instantly without having to go through the moderation que. (plus if frees up a little time for the over-worked mods:yep:)
You can send your request to localchurchdiscussions@gmail.com (just include your desired UserName and we will send you a temporary password.
Plus you can communicate privately with other members through the Private Message system.
Thanks!

TLFisher

04-06-2013, 03:17 PM

It seems like the marketing outreach arm of the "kingdom of Dong" is far more developed than Witness Lee's or Titus Chu's ever dreamed of, and is now situated to launch their products globally. So it's no wonder the Blendeds had them quarantined.

Dismiss it if you (as the reader) will, in the matter of quarantines or even fellowship between localities, ministry revenue is a factor.

Ohio

04-06-2013, 04:27 PM

Dismiss it if you (as the reader) will, in the matter of quarantines or even fellowship between localities, ministry revenue is a factor.

Time for Jesus to overturn the money tables again!

Ohio

04-06-2013, 06:44 PM

How can this weekend's "ministry" edify these believers, if the featured topic is not even spelled out in the Bible? If they really wanted to equip the saints with this "recovered truth," one would think that Nigel Tomes would be invited, since he has written two excellent articles on this very topic.

I understand that one of the "chiefs" from the TC reservation got "hoppin mad" when Nigel Tomes sent his recent article to the saints in his LC. Imagine that! It's not like Nigel secretly targeted these ones, as they have been on Nigel's mailing list for some time now.

I had heard a while ago that warrior chief and Nigel "don't talk anymore." See, God's truth still has impact on those in the reservation. Before they weren't talking, and now Chief Hoppin' Mad is talking again, perhaps not yet with Nigel, but talking nevertheless about Nigel. Perhaps reconciliation is on the horizon.

It's become so obvious how contentious this "ground of locality" teaching has become. It draws up battle lines to divide the brothers. It stands in opposition to brotherly love. Cleveland feels completely justified to covertly invite Toronto brothers, but when Nigel decides to openly and scholarly discuss this topic, then brothers feign righteous indignation. Is their "vision" that vulnerable to examination? Have not the recent turmoils caused anyone on the reservation to rethink their position?

TLFisher

04-07-2013, 09:42 PM

It's become so obvious how contentious this "ground of locality" teaching has become. Have not the recent turmoils caused anyone on the reservation to rethink their position?
In my honest opinion Ohio, when Watchman Nee endorsed this doctrine in China, historically it made sense. Christianity in China was very denominated. Set aside your denominatons and come together in Christ.
In the present state of Christianity in North America, many have come out of denominations and into community Churches, foursquare churches among other non-denominational churches.
Now the ground of locality teaching has morphed into a ground of ministry teaching. Here in Washington, one local church can say "we are meeting on the ground of locality", but if this local church is not under the same ministry as the other local churches, this local church is called a rebel church (as it was in the mid-1990's) or now "they're our friends". From your posts something similar has already happened in the Midwest.
A church can call themselves The Church in _____, but if this church is not under the same ministry, this church is not considered a local church. Just as the Plymouth Brethren have gone through division after division, the Local churches are taking the same course. My message: Set aside the ground teaching, set aside emphasizing a ministry, and just come together in Christ.

Ohio

04-08-2013, 03:41 PM

In my honest opinion Ohio, when Watchman Nee endorsed this doctrine in China, historically it made sense. Christianity in China was very denominated. Set aside your denominatons and come together in Christ.
I believe this is correct. It appears likely that the "ground of locality" was an over-reaction by scholarly young Chinese against British colonialism in the form of rigid denominational mission boards. Didn't W. Nee's so-called "perfecter," named Margaret Barber, who supposedly "raised him up" by publicly rebuking him, apparently the "great-grandmother" of the local church movement, have a falling out with her own mission board.

By the time Lee got started in the USA, the denominational strongholds were dying. That was completely due their stagnancy and the move of the Spirit during the 60's "Jesus movement" than any of Lee's teachings.

Hence, Lee was forced to maliciously attack "free groups" which were springing up all over. Genesis Life Study Message #54 records Lee's thoughts on "Free Groups." It is forever on record as one of the most judgmental, disparaging, and deprecating messages in the annals of church history. Witness Lee likens all those genuine children of God, born of the Spirit, outside of denominations in loosely connected "free groups," as today's incestuous children of Lot. His arrogance reached a "high peak" in that Genesis message. Today many of these free groups have become large independent community churches.

Ohio

04-09-2013, 05:33 PM

So the "burden" of this conference has little to do with scriptural revelation or vision. It's all about "commitment." Commitment and alignment with Cleveland under the old format. How can this weekend's "ministry" edify these believers, if the featured topic is not even spelled out in the Bible? If they really wanted to equip the saints with this "recovered truth," one would think that Nigel Tomes would be invited, since he has written two excellent articles on this very topic.
There was a time when the GLA Annual Spring Conference normally held in Chicago attracted upwards of a thousand saints, and that was the reason Chicago built a huge expansion to their hall a decade or so ago. Last weekend's conference was but a fourth of that, composed mostly of older saints and 2nd generation raised in the program.

Apparently the repercussions of Nigel Tomes' recent article "LSM's Sacrament..." reverberating from the saints' computers, forced Paul Neider and other "burdened" brothers to rethink their failed strategy. Instead of mentioning the "ground of locality" or the "ground of oneness," there was talk about the "city church" pattern in the New Testament. I have to wonder how many of the younger attendees showed up with Nigel's paper in hand.

Yet they still promoted the old schemes, that "God is one, He created only one man Adam, He called only one man Abraham, etc." perhaps lifted directly from Lee's book The Genuine Ground of Oneness. They even publicly acknowledged that the "city church" model in the Bible is merely descriptive and not prescriptive. If that is the case, then what good is it? Is not the apostolic record also descriptive of riverside meetings, house meetings, prison meetings, and temple meetings?

If the N.T. is not prescriptive of "city-churches" with the accompanying mandate of an uniquely exclusive "city-church-eldership," then why even discuss the topic at all. Why have a conference? Why waste people's time? Forgetting for a moment that the Neider household might not even be living in Cleveland, the question is whether Paul Neider is an elder over every Christian in Cleveland, or not.

It would have been far more valuable for Paul Neider to invite Nigel Tomes and openly discuss this topic. Employ a seasoned moderator, open up the scriptures, take off the gloves, and settle this thing once and for all! If it's in the Bible, then promote it fearlessly. If it's not in the Bible, then discard it with the weekly trash. Why play games and dress up this old failed doctrine in new clothes, promising "life-changing" ministry on their website?

Apparently the only folks not studying this old doctrine in the light of the God's word are the elders in Cleveland with their few remaining lackeys around the GLA, like the young hireling, Chief Hoppin Mad. For a group of churches so proud of their scriptural knowledge and spiritual riches, they should heartily welcome a challenge to the basic tenets of their Recovery foundations. Nigel Tomes' recent paper only served to highlight how much of their foundation was built upon the sinking sands of Nee's and Lee's doctrines.

The talk around the meeting hall water cooler during the breaks could be summarized as "Did you read Nigel's article? ... Nigel broke ranks with the brothers ... Nigel hijacked the proceedings of the conference ... " But did Nigel really do all this? Or was this really the Lord as the Good Shepherd and the Door of the sheep, leading them into a green Pasture. (John 10)

Midwest bro

04-12-2013, 01:49 PM

Ohio, could you say more about the conference, and the aftermath?

Ohio

04-12-2013, 01:52 PM

In the conference Vern Yoder gave a message about "our oneness." He shared that we should be so "open" to receive other believers, making the point of his message that if GLA local churches found a group which was "meeting like us" then we would wholeheartedly welcome them into our fellowship. Yoder gave the example of what happened decades ago in Rochester MN, though he did not specifically mention them by name, but obviously us "old-timers" could easily make the connection, since such events have been so extremely rare. Quarantines and excommunications, by the way, are far more common than whole groups of Christians coming into the Recovery!

Interestingly, the church in Rochester, MN joined the LC's after Bill Freeman (then with the church in Seattle) visited them and ministered to them. Since Rochester was in the "Midwest territory" of Titus Chu, Bill Barker & James Reetzke of Chicago were sent to visit these brothers and bring them into the local church fold. I should note that during the recent quarantine, most of Rochester sided with LSM and Chicago, agreeing that Titus Chu should be quarantined for divisive activities.

It's hard to believe that Vern Yoder would mention such an old case to confirm his burden that the LC's are truly "one" and "open" to receive outside Christians. Don't you have another example that's less than a third of a century old?!? And what's the point? Even the Lutherans would zealously court a congregation willing to enter their fold. In reality there's nothing "one" and "open" about the way LC leaders like Vern Yoder treat other Christians. All of his conference talk was standard LC doublespeak to offer vain promises to the remaining faithful. Since Nigel Tomes crashed their party with his timely "LSM Sacraments ...," Yoder was forced to resort to false pretense rather than rekindle fear to pen up the saints with locality talk.

The hypocrisy of this message is just mind-boggling. Yoder and company are willing to cut off John Myer with Grandview Heights and Keith Miller with Cincinnati when they resist Titus Chu's abuses and dominance, but then publicly announce to all the saints that they are "one" and "open" to receive all Christians. You reject brothers who have worked with you for a quarter century, who are like you in nearly every teaching and practice, and then talk about being one with all Christians in the essentials of the faith, and extending to them the right hand of fellowship. That's like the Pharisees giving a message on Passover Day about the coming Messiah, while the body of Jesus still lies warm in the tomb.

What makes this exceeding ironic is the fact that Cincinnati actually did what Yoder was talking about, joining another like-minded congregation nearby them, exhibiting the real oneness and openness to outsiders. Of course, Yoder would not see things this way. He would mourn how those brothers are "doing their own thing" and have "lost their vision." I would ask Vern Yoder to reconsider what kind of "vision," and what kind of "oneness" is he is clinging to.

The real question that should be presented to Yoder is this: are you talking about oneness or "control?" Both Anaheim and Cleveland have a long history of ruling others like the Gentiles do, "lording it over them, and exercising great authority over them." (Matt 20.25) The Lord warned us repeatedly about this, but most LC leaders including Vern never got that memo. Both Lee and Chu were notable for how poorly they treated their brothers. Yoder and other LC leaders have learned far too many bad habits from their mentor Titus Chu. How easy it is to be charmingly nice and lovingly kind to first-time guests, yet brutally intolerant and disrespectful to the ones right next to them.

So I ask again, are you really seeking "oneness" according to the Spirit, or are you connected only with those ones willing to be controlled and submit to your leadership?

Cal

04-12-2013, 03:32 PM

So I ask again, are you really seeking "oneness" according to the Spirit, or are you connected only with those ones willing to be controlled and submit to your leadership?

I think the key to understanding this, Ohio, is to realize that these LC leaders have no clue what oneness is. To them oneness is going with the program, being a yes-man, and never rocking the boat for any reason.

But that's not oneness.

Real oneness means you can fellowship with any brother or sister in any setting, with no judgment or agenda. Period.

The LC leaders are all about agenda. In fact, they consider being for the agenda as being one. But that's being a religionist.

A Christian who truly knows oneness knows how to drop his or her agenda in a heartbeat, receive brothers and sisters, and stayed focused on Christ.

People who stayed focused on Christ are always going to annoy people with agendas. People with agendas always think they are right about something and the rest of us need to get on board with it. Their method is to convince you that you need to go along with them to show you are truly a devoted Christian--aka guilt, fear and bullying. At the heart of that is arrogance.

Cal

04-12-2013, 03:54 PM

countmeworthy

04-12-2013, 04:31 PM

Let me put it this way:

It is the height of arrogance to tell people that in order to be one with Christ, they need to be one with your agenda.

This is the basic error of the whole "Lord's Recovery" leadership: They have presumed their agenda is Christ's.

uh.. ;-) correction: Christ's agenda is theirs!! They are not praying Thy Will be done. They are more likely praying Witness Lees' will be done!

P.S. Let's not forget to pray the Lord Jesus through His Life Giving, Loving Spirit reveal the Truth - Jesus The Christ to them. Only HE can set the captives free.

Blessings,
Carol Garza

TLFisher

04-12-2013, 09:23 PM

Real oneness means you can fellowship with any brother or sister in any setting, with no judgment or agenda. Period.

The LC leaders are all about agenda. In fact, they consider being for the agenda as being one. But that's being a religionist.

A Christian who truly knows oneness knows how to drop his or her agenda in a heartbeat, receive brothers and sisters, and stayed focused on Christ.

Yes Igzy. Real oneness is not conditional. All regenerated brothers and sisters have an inner life we all share. Man cannot place a condition on this oneness. Whom God receives, we also must receive.
Practically real oneness is blessing a brother or sister regardless if they stay with your congregation or choose leave and meet with another one.

Cal

04-12-2013, 11:32 PM

Practically real oneness is blessing a brother or sister regardless if they stay with your congregation or choose leave and meet with another one.

Amen, brother Terry!

Ohio

04-13-2013, 07:50 AM

I think the key to understanding this, Ohio, is to realize that these LC leaders have no clue what oneness is. To them oneness is going with the program, being a yes-man, and never rocking the boat for any reason.

The LC leaders are all about agenda. In fact, they consider being for the agenda as being one. But that's being a religionist.

You have described the attitude of the common saint -- going with the program, being a yes-man, not having any opinion, submitting to the leadership regardless, being consecrated to the church, faithful in service and attendance, etc. Actually none of this is inherently bad on the part of the saints, rather it is enabling the bad behavior of their leaders. And it is this rotten and abusive behavior of LC leaders which prompts me to write.

LC leaders like Witness Lee and Titus Chu use agenda to lord it over the saints. Their constant emphasis on "oneness" has the motive of silencing and subduing the flock. With the other elders and workers, however, WL and TC use intimidation as a means of control. Hence they do not control the churches directly, which is why WL and TC both have publicly challenged, "which church did I control?" They control churches by controlling other leaders, especially the paid staff.

I lived thru decades of headquarter mandates from Anaheim or Cleveland disrupting the local church life. The Lord would lead us locally in a certain direction, caring for local needs, and then suddenly the entire church was launched in a new direction. On our part we were practicing the oneness of the body (i.e. having no opinion, in one accord, being flexible, etc.), but the leadership at headquarters was using agenda to flex their muscles, maintaining strict controls over the satellite churches.

We never asked for this new agenda. We were not seeking spiritual help from our "apostle." He just decided that we needed what he had in mind. Most of the time the church was in a healthy state, and the new agenda really hurt us, adding absolutely no long term spiritual benefit. Why would the "apostle" do this? ... Because he could! He was not in that position to serve, but to rule, and he used agenda to lord it over us. He was behaving just like the Gentle rulers the Lord had warned us about, yet he was disguised with esoteric spiritual language, and reinforced by a cadre of spiritual thugs.

That's just the system we were in. Individually none of these brothers was a "bad" brother. On the contrary, each was precious, gifted, and self-sacrificing. When it comes to leading the LC's, however, this system had a way of transforming beloved brothers into bullies.

TLFisher

04-15-2013, 06:09 PM

That's just the system we were in. Individually none of these brothers was a "bad" brother. On the contrary, each was precious, gifted, and self-sacrificing. When it comes to leading the LC's, however, this system had a way of transforming beloved brothers into bullies.

Part of the problem is misinterpretation and practices of the teaching of deputy authority. This is what turns compassionate brothers into spiritual bullies. There is much more that needs to be spoken on this teaching and it's practices and ignored practices.

TLFisher

04-16-2013, 08:18 PM

You have described the attitude of the common saint -- going with the program, being a yes-man, not having any opinion, submitting to the leadership regardless, being consecrated to the church, faithful in service and attendance, etc. Actually none of this is inherently bad on the part of the saints, rather it is enabling the bad behavior of their leaders. And it is this rotten and abusive behavior of LC leaders which prompts me to write.

Ohio, I think this is true for most brothers and sisters. Wanting to be one in spirit, not expressing an opinion, submitting to the brothers, being consecrated to the church, etc.
Notice I underlined submitting to the brothers. This is with the concept brothers are in responsible positions as elders and deacons, because of their character and because they match the qualifications. In general I have thought the character of a brother I am submitting to is humble, compassionate, patient, impartial, gentle, and having a soft conscience.
Why would there be bad behavior?
Is it because of how deputy authority is taught and practiced there is no consideration to setting boundaries or what character qualifications a elder or co-worker must have?
When you say abusive behavior, that could cover a broad variety. Some examples may including ridicule, shunning, etc. Typically when I think of abusive behavior I tend to think of pride, partiality, and no accountability to the saints.

Ohio

08-01-2013, 12:51 PM

Announcing a conference in the GLA ...

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m6vk3q.jpg

Ohio

08-01-2013, 12:55 PM

With John Myer and some former LC folks ... Post quarantino ...

http://i42.tinypic.com/20rnuvn.jpg

Ohio

09-05-2013, 01:06 PM

2. The remaining saints, a clear majority in number, began to meet in a rented school and call themselves Columbus Christian Assembly. After they willingly handed over all their church property and assets, they seemed to flourish for awhile. Their website, however, is now down.

It is with sadness only that I have recently learned that Columbus Christian Assembly has basically dissolved.

The once flourishing church, close to 200 saints, the most fruitful congregation of the late 1990's and early 2000's in all of greater Ohio, has been decimated. Firstly it was LSM operatives in the aftermath of the Titus Chu quarantine who brought lawsuits against the church. Then, true to form, it was Titus Chu who cut off John Myer, forcing all the young people to choose sides. Lastly, one of the remaining elders attempted to launch the church into totally new areas of pentecostal prosperity, which many saints rejected. Some of the scattered saints have decided to rejoin the LSM group which now owns their former meeting hall.

On a more positive note, "expelled" brothers from Cincinnati and Columbus, including John Myer and Keith Miller, are presently in Uganda caring for believers there. Hopefully they can steer clear of bureaucrats like Titus Chu's boy Vern Yoder of Pittsberg, who once claimed to be the "leading co-worker in Africa." Aren't there enough people in the world, that we don't need to fight over a handful of Christians the other side of the globe?

countmeworthy

09-05-2013, 06:34 PM

It is with sadness only that I have recently learned that Columbus Christian Assembly has basically dissolved.

The once flourishing church, close to 200 saints, the most fruitful congregation of the late 1990's and early 2000's in all of greater Ohio, has been decimated. Firstly it was LSM operatives in the aftermath of the Titus Chu quarantine who brought lawsuits against the church. Then, true to form, it was Titus Chu who cut off John Myer, forcing all the young people to choose sides. Lastly, one of the remaining elders attempted to launch the church into totally new areas of pentecostal prosperity, which many saints rejected. Some of the scattered saints have decided to rejoin the LSM group which now owns their former meeting hall.

On a more positive note, "expelled" brothers from Cincinnati and Columbus, including John Myer and Keith Miller, are presently in Uganda caring for believers there. Hopefully they can steer clear of bureaucrats like Titus Chu's boy Vern Yoder of Pittsberg, who once claimed to be the "leading co-worker in Africa." Aren't there enough people in the world, that we don't need to fight over a handful of Christians the other side of the globe?

Forgive me ahead of time if I am speaking out of line because I have no connection to this assembly that dissolved. So I am just going by assumption and that might not so good on my part. :D

I am wondering what their goal was, their "mission statement" might have been. Because if they were holding on to some of the LSM or Titus Chu's wood, hay and stubble, it was bound to dissolve.

I think it is very difficult for people who were doing things, meeting in the same way for years and years to take the good things and make it successful. Too much baggage is brought in.

The Living Word of God by His Spirit is the only way we are going to be successful in our assembly. I was reminded of 1 Corinthians 1:12-13:
Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

200 saints meeting together is quite a nice group of people to be used mightily by the LORD. I suspect too many people were licking their wounds and putting band aids on them.

What do I know though? It is quite possible God had other plans for the saints and He had to disperse them in order to shed the old wine skin and put on them new wine skins.

Someday..and hopefully soon...indeed we will experience the unity of the saints -in Spirit-. God's promise is He makes all things new.

Hold fast to that promise. We are almost at the finish line folks!!

Blessings all!

Carol G

Ohio

09-06-2013, 08:09 AM

I am wondering what their goal was, their "mission statement" might have been. Because if they were holding on to some of the LSM or Titus Chu's wood, hay and stubble, it was bound to dissolve.

If you ask the saints in Columbus over the years what their "mission statement" included, they would all answer that they were a "local" church, loving the word of God, and desiring to testify of the living Christ, and Him alone.

What we have seen, however, continuously displayed by power hungry bureaucrats in both Anaheim and Cleveland are those who merely pay lip-service to the welfare of the saints, and place their own empires high above all. Whether it was Titus Chu publicly shaming local leaders in order to beat them into submission, or LSM operatives working backroom politics to win at all costs using lawsuits and slanders, neither side would dream of following the actual patterns laid out in scripture by the Lord Jesus and the apostles.

It is tragically amazing to have witnessed for decades so many sincere brothers, longing to know His will and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit, only to have all that regularly shelved by the steady stream of directives coming from headquarters. Call them the "new way," or the "flow," or the "God-ordained way," or some "urgent training," or whatever other deceptive ploy might be used, the real goal was never as stated, but rather always had surreptitious designs to maintain and expand the empires of notable Recovery leaders.

countmeworthy

09-06-2013, 09:39 AM

If you ask the saints in Columbus over the years what their "mission statement" included, they would all answer that they were a "local" church, loving the word of God, and desiring to testify of the living Christ, and Him alone.

What we have seen, however, continuously displayed by power hungry bureaucrats in both Anaheim and Cleveland are those who merely pay lip-service to the welfare of the saints, and place their own empires high above all. Whether it was Titus Chu publicly shaming local leaders in order to beat them into submission, or LSM operatives working backroom politics to win at all costs using lawsuits and slanders, neither side would dream of following the actual patterns laid out in scripture by the Lord Jesus and the apostles.

It is tragically amazing to have witnessed for decades so many sincere brothers, longing to know His will and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit, only to have all that regularly shelved by the steady stream of directives coming from headquarters. Call them the "new way," or the "flow," or the "God-ordained way," or some "urgent training," or whatever other deceptive ploy might be used, the real goal was never as stated, but rather always had surreptitious designs to maintain and expand the empires of notable Recovery leaders.

Agendas. There are always (it seems to me) hidden agendas. The Lord's will is found in the scriptures. His Will is not hidden from us. It has always been the same Will until we reach our Glorified state where there is no sin, no sickness, no disease, no old age, no death.

If you ask me what God's Will is, it is simply Eternal Salvation, followed by deliverance and sanctification.

To obtain eternal salvation, we have to acknowledge our sins, confront them and renounce them. Not just in general but acknowledge, confess and renounce the hidden, personal ones. Sometimes this is a private matter. Sometimes we need to confess our sins one to another. It is easy to say 'I repent of all my sins and forgive me.' But we cannot fool the Holy Spirit who knows the thoughts and intentions of our heart. Often times, we have hidden sin and don't want to acknowledge it.

Sin is hardly mentioned anymore. ANYWHERE. Just "call on the Name of the Lord" and you're saved." Boom. To the tongue speaking crowd it is after repeating the 'sinners prayer' it is "Get baptized in the Holy Spirit and begin praying in tongues". Boom. End of story. Well. It ISN'T the end of the story!!

We need help to be delivered from repeating the same sin over and over. We need to be delivered from pride, selfishness, greed, anxiety, from religious works and from dead works just to name a few sins.

We need to be sanctified, to be set apart unto the Lord. But many people have this notion we have to look 'different'. That is what we did in the 70s in the LC. We dressed the same so we could look different from the world. We forget the way we 'look different' to the world is by shining God's Light, projecting His Love and compassion and offering the world through our character, integrity and most important of all our relationship/connection with the Living Word -Jesus Christ- so that HE will be attractive to them and they will be drawn to HIM through us.

As to the brethren: we need to be encouraging one another and helping each other out. We need to friends with each other outside of fellowship/prayer gatherings. That is very hard to do because not everyone likes everyone in Christ.

We must pray without ceasing pray. Get to know our Creator in all His various functions. We need to be filled with the Joy of the Lord daily. For the Joy of the Lord is our strength. We need to Worship the Father, the Spirit and the Son. Three in ONE. Constantly.

We need to study the Word privately and 'corporately'..that is with at least 2-3 people. We have to let the HOLY SPIRIT lead. We should study topics and apply the Word to our own personal lives. Experience the transformation of the Living Word working in us so we can offer Hope to the lost and to the disillusioned and know how to answer every person with Truth and with Love.

Sorry for sounding off. Perhaps I am 'preaching to the choir here'. It is just that I am a tad frustrated with the condition of the church as a whole.

Blessings to all.

Carol G

alwayslearning

09-06-2013, 03:44 PM

If you ask the saints in Columbus over the years what their "mission statement" included, they would all answer that they were a "local" church, loving the word of God, and desiring to testify of the living Christ, and Him alone...It is tragically amazing to have witnessed for decades so many sincere brothers, longing to know His will and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit, only to have all that regularly shelved by the steady stream of directives coming from headquarters. Call them the "new way," or the "flow," or the "God-ordained way," or some "urgent training," or whatever other deceptive ploy might be used, the real goal was never as stated, but rather always had surreptitious designs to maintain and expand the empires of notable Recovery leaders.

Tragic to hear of the demise of the post LSM LC in Columbus. The LSM bunch and Titus Chu & Co like to tinker around with other peoples lives with nary a care what the impact will be. Philip Comfort, Lewis Cheng and more recently John Myer all gone from the LC which is left with a leader/s who wants to take the church into the prosperity gospel!

True be told in practical terms a lot of the "oneness" in the LC system IS based on Witness Lee's ministry whether in the BB or Titus version regardless of the stated theories of "oneness". If an LC (rare) does have solid local leadership who have developed their own ministries and helped others do so (have a deep bench) then they can go on without Witness Lee's ministry and the edicts of those who claim to represent it. Maybe where Nigel Tomes is in Toronto is an example of this. I'm not sure.

Ohio

09-08-2013, 10:30 AM

Tragic to hear of the demise of the post LSM LC in Columbus. The LSM bunch and Titus Chu & Co like to tinker around with other peoples lives with nary a care what the impact will be. Philip Comfort, Lewis Cheng and more recently John Myer all gone from the LC which is left with a leader/s who wants to take the church into the prosperity gospel!

True be told in practical terms a lot of the "oneness" in the LC system IS based on Witness Lee's ministry whether in the BB or Titus version regardless of the stated theories of "oneness". If an LC (rare) does have solid local leadership who have developed their own ministries and helped others do so (have a deep bench) then they can go on without Witness Lee's ministry and the edicts of those who claim to represent it. Maybe where Nigel Tomes is in Toronto is an example of this. I'm not sure.

Whenever a healthy and gifted local church eldership attempts to follow the Lord and serve their church accordingly, inevitably they will move away from these dominating ministries. They will no longer desire to be a satellite lackey of remote ministry with their never-ending demands and programs.

Therefore, it is always in the best interests of these empire-building bureaucrats, both in Anaheim or in Cleveland, to constantly remove and relocate these locally gifted ministers away from any potential following they may have among their local saints. This alone ensures the needed power over satellite churches. Once their local elders are removed, especially the gifted ones who started the church and ministered to her healthy condition, the remaining saints are thus crippled, and forever need the headquarter ministry as a crutch.

Unfortunately no one else has come forward to address these self-serving measures which so characterize the leadership of the Recovery. Brothers grow up just assuming this is the N.T. way. Twice I have personally migrated to help start new churches. Both times Titus Chu forced the leading minister to relocate against his will. It was never their choice because it was not a choice they as workers were allowed to make. Later on I learned that behind the scenes Witness Lee and Titus Chu were battling over the "rights" to these two brothers. Each wanted them to build up his own empire. Neither leader cared for the condition of the local minister, his family, nor the church where he longed to serve. Neither bothered to ask the Lord what He desired either.