Are we to be “Drunk with the Spirit?”?

[Unregistered]

Hello,
Question for the forum, regarding the verse below, and also John 6:57 and 7:37. I have tried to find some answers but I figured I’ll try to see if anyone can provide some links or had any input regarding this.

Ephesians 5:18
18*And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

In the book written by Lee, “How to Enjoy God and How to Practice the Enjoyment of God”, in chapter 9 called “Enjoying God through Taking In the Spirit”, he takes the verse above and maybe in my honest opinion, turns the concept of drunk with wine to be drunk with spirit as an equal thing. Here are some quotes:


p. 451: BEING DRUNK WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT—I would like to emphasize the word eats in John 6:57 and drink in 7:37.
p. 451: They were drunk with the Spirit, not drunk with wine. The Spirit is the realization of God.
p. 451: They were drunk with God, not with wine. They were "crazy" because of God, not "crazy" because of wine.
p. 451: I believe that the Lord would allow me to say this. When a man is drunk, he becomes crazy and speaks deliriously.
p. 452: He speaks whatever he wants to speak; there is no fear or reservation in him. On the day of Pentecost the disciples were indeed drunk.
p. 452: They were drunk with God. They were filled with God.
p. 452: This means that the apostle was sober toward men but was crazy toward God. Some Christians are sober before men and sober before God; they have never been crazy, because they have never been drunk with God.
p. 452: Paul was "insane" because he was inwardly filled and drunk with God. He was filled with the Holy Spirit.
p. 452: We are as those who are "insane" before God; we are drunk with God. We not only need to eat God and drink God, but we also need to be drunk with God.

The only thing I found in the Bible as a reference to being drunk with the spirit, is in the OT, Isaiah 29:9-11, when it describes the apostasy that took place in Israel, and nothing else. Is this an accurate interpretation of being “filled with the Spirit”, and we should be acting crazy, and speak as delirious man? Paul was “insane”?
I believe there is a strong correlation between getting out of your mind, (which is what happens when your are drunk), and being drunk with the spirit as prescribed by the oracle.

Also, there is an interesting thing about drinking, is that you get a sort of high, which I feel like what it was when I was a member of LC. You enjoy the “jubilee”, as if you just had a bottle of something strong, but as soon as it wears off, the low is pretty brutal, when you realize what actual reality is.
Any input is welcome.
Thanks

[gr8ful]

"Also, there is an interesting thing about drinking, is that you get a sort of high, which I feel like what it was when I was a member of LC. You enjoy the “jubilee”, as if you just had a bottle of something strong, but as soon as it wears off, the low is pretty brutal, when you realize what actual reality is."

The initial high I had at a weekend retreat after I was recruited was incredible. I chased that high to every holiday conference, college retreat, semi-annual training, and all the way to one of the FTTs. The more extreme I was in my devotion to The Ministry the higher the high and the lower the crash. it finally came to an end one day as I finally left (on my own). That "high life" was a terrible trip.

Now I have a steady life that is measurably better and I'm a better person without a doubt.

[Trapped]

Hi Unregistered,

If this is your first time posting - welcome to the forum!

I agree with you that it sounds like Witness Lee is trying to equate being drunk with wine to being drunk with the Spirit, but, as usual he is saying something the Scripture isn't actually saying. It's always that tiiiiiny little deviation he likes to throw in there.

The verse says to be filled with the Spirit! Not to be drunk with the Spirit!

It's like saying, "don't be high on cocaine, but be content with the satisfaction that comes from serving others." (do people get "high" on cocaine? I don't know drugs). It's not saying the contentment is a cocaine-like high. They are just saying substitute this better, healthier thing for the worse, damaging thing. It's not necessarily a one-to-one equation, impairment-wise.

The being drunk in Isaiah 29 is like that of a stupor. On the contrary, believers are supposed to be alert and sober-minded. (1 Peter 5:8 - Be alert and of sober mind.)

When the believers in Acts 2 were filled with the Holy Spirit and were speaking in tongues (which means various languages; it does not mean "nonsense" or "babbling"), it was the ones mocking them who labeled them "drunk". It was not the description of the believers concerning believers.

When Paul spoke to King Agrippa in Acts 26, Festus considers him crazy/beside himself, but Paul reassured him in verse 25 that he was speaking words "of truth and sobriety".

"Being drunk" does indeed seem to be another one of Witness Lee's tricks to get people to stop thinking and to not use their mind.

You also mentioned John 6:57 and John 7:37. What about those verses?

Trapped

[Unregistered]

The initial high I had at a weekend retreat after I was recruited was incredible. I chased that high to every holiday conference, college retreat, semi-annual training, and all the way to one of the FTTs. The more extreme I was in my devotion to The Ministry the higher the high and the lower the crash. it finally came to an end one day as I finally left (on my own). That "high life" was a terrible trip.

Now I have a steady life that is measurably better and I'm a better person without a doubt.

I couldn't agree more. This whole idea is mind numbing, or altering your true reality vs natural, constant life of being able to live without having to go for my next fix. Thank God there are other that see the same, I taught maybe I was just exception to the rule, or just make things up in my head as I was told by one of the locals. They sure do make you question every healthy thing that you actually now enjoy after years of chasing the ghost of "life" as described by the ministry.

[Unregistered]

Hi Unregistered, If this is your first time posting - welcome to the forum!

Thank you.

John 6:57 and John 7:37 were mentioned because Lee takes those verses as to describe the process of eating and drinking to that of "getting drunk with the Spirit", as you can see in the quotes from the book. I just had a hard time seeing how those verses speak of the same thing, as getting drunk with wine. I don't believe they do now, after many years of having something tell me inside that it wasn't so. I'm just amazed that how sometimes it takes years to get to the point when you can throw something away that really did a lot of damage to me, and by me being that way, hurt others around me. I have went to the Lord about it and just have freedom now, as I never had before.

[Trapped]

I think the bottom line is the Bible shows pretty clearly the problem is not the wine. A little wine is a good thing, per Paul. Jesus turned water into wine.

Some wine is good. Too much wine is not good, because of the getting drunk.

The problem is not the wine part. The problem is the drunk part. Do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess or debauchery or reckless indiscretion (to borrow from a few other translations). And....yet look at how Lee describes being drunk in Spirit. In the same kind of way: crazy, speaking deliriously, "speaks whatever he wants", no reservation, insane!

Being drunk is the problem, whether it's with wine or with "the Spirit". Lee is yet again off his rocker.

Trapped

[Ohio]

"Also, there is an interesting thing about drinking, is that you get a sort of high, which I feel like what it was when I was a member of LC. You enjoy the “jubilee”, as if you just had a bottle of something strong, but as soon as it wears off, the low is pretty brutal, when you realize what actual reality is."

The initial high I had at a weekend retreat after I was recruited was incredible.
Yeah, me too. Very incredible and very real. But, then again, it became distorted and manipulated by LC leaders.

I started attending meetings in May of ‘76 in Cleveland. I was a young Christian struggling to overcome my addiction to Camel Filters. Joe Camel had me hooked on at least a pack a day. The joy of the Lord, the “meeting high,” the filling of the Spirit alone at my first training, enabled me to easily be delivered from that horrible addiction. Thousands, myriads, of times I have thanked the Lord, worshiped God, for His grace to free me from smoking. Yes, that “high” was very real at the church in Cleveland meetings and the “training” in Anaheim. My co-workers were shocked when I returned, “You went on vacation to SoCal, and you quit smoking?”

The following year, during the “Max Rebellion,” late May of ‘77, the whole “rip roaring drunk in the spirit” movement was in full swing. That was fleshly, masquerading as the former “high” to expedite LSM’s takeover of all the LC’s, masterminded by WL himself. He had charged Max R. to travel, basically inciting all the young people to revolt against their elders in support of WL. That was an ugly time indeed. That ended a lot.

[Zezima]

Galatians 5:22-23 tells us what the result or fruit of the spirit is..

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

[Onlooker]

Here is why local church doesn’t want you to have a sober mind, straight from their satanic teachings. God forbid you realize what they have been doing to you and your family for decades. Better stay drunk! Just read “tha ministry”, and die a slow and painful death.


“When we are sober, we are clear where others are wrong. We should not be sober in such a way, but we should be drunk with God in our spirit.”

CWWL, 1983, vol. 2, "The Divine Dispensing of the Divine Trinity," ch. 19

[JJ]

The simple answer to “Are we to be Drunk with the Spirit” is no, we are to be filled in Spirit. If we are to be drunk with the Spirit it would say that, but it doesn’t. And the next verse Ephesians 5:19 gives what being filled in Spirit looks like: https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/5-18.htm

As others have said drunkenness leads to debauchery (what Paul says!). Being filled in Spirit results in.... fruits of the Spirit.

This, mindlessly following Witness Lee to “get drunk with the Spirit”, is just another example of how unhitched to scripture we got heeding the man, Lee, instead of Christ and His word.

[Onlooker]

I believe there is a strong correlation between getting out of your mind, (which is what happens when your are drunk), and being drunk with the spirit as prescribed by the oracle.



I’m not sure if this will add or confuse this thread, but I was going over Mat 24:48-51, and it speaks of evil servant who said that:

48*But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49*And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50*The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51*And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

During my time at LC, this portion of Scripture was said to be about some other people, who are not in tha church, and who never received the visions and truths as presented by Recovery.

However, since my departure from them, by Gods mercy and grace, this portion speaks precisely about the local churches. I remember almost every meeting, conference, training, one of the speakers will quote Lee or Nee, about how and why “the Lord is delaying His coming”, as if they have a clue.

Every message seems to be about beating up on the saints, smiting them for not growing, not advancing to the level of the hierarchy. God is delayed because of you all! You need to eat more, drink more! You are the reasons why we are still here, we need to bring the Lord back! (As if they can or could or will). Be drunk with the Spirit! Hallelujah! Feast on the Lord! Fear mongering, shamming, uplifting these man made methods, trying to break people. All done under the sweet cover of “care”.

Well, I know the Lord is coming back, and will not give any signs when that will be, could be today and could be 1000 years from now. So you better not be drunk with some spirit, or be feasting on tha ministry, because the end results will be as written. Sobering up is a challenge, and does require some strength and leading from within. You cannot make anyone realize this, especially under the influence. Sad to see it, heartbreaking to experience yourself and those that you love the most.

[Trapped]

I’m not sure if this will add or confuse this thread, but I was going over Mat 24:48-51, and it speaks of evil servant who said that:

48*But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49*And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50*The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51*And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

During my time at LC, this portion of Scripture was said to be about some other people, who are not in tha church, and who never received the visions and truths as presented by Recovery.

However, since my departure from them, by Gods mercy and grace, this portion speaks precisely about the local churches. I remember almost every meeting, conference, training, one of the speakers will quote Lee or Nee, about how and why “the Lord is delaying His coming”, as if they have a clue.

Every message seems to be about beating up on the saints, smiting them for not growing, not advancing to the level of the hierarchy. God is delayed because of you all! You need to eat more, drink more! You are the reasons why we are still here, we need to bring the Lord back! (As if they can or could or will). Be drunk with the Spirit! Hallelujah! Feast on the Lord! Fear mongering, shamming, uplifting these man made methods, trying to break people. All done under the sweet cover of “care”.

Well, I know the Lord is coming back, and will not give any signs when that will be, could be today and could be 1000 years from now. So you better not be drunk with some spirit, or be feasting on tha ministry, because the end results will be as written. Sobering up is a challenge, and does require some strength and leading from within. You cannot make anyone realize this, especially under the influence. Sad to see it, heartbreaking to experience yourself and those that you love the most.

Hi Onlooker,

I greatly agree with you regarding your comment here that every message seems to be about beating up the saints, not being absolute enough, not being the ministry enough, not praying enough, not shepherding enough, not opening their homes enough, etc.... And yet so many saints hear it and walk away thinking "what an encouragement!" It's crazy.

And yet....there's not much they can do in response. They can think they are encouraged, but they literally cannot read more ministry, have more open homes, shepherd more, etc. They have been running around doing everything they're told for a long time, and there is very little to show for it.

Most of them don't want to hear it. If you mention any problem, they will rationalize, justify, pretend, everything but see the problem as an actual problem. I don't know how to help those trapped inside it. I wish I did.

Trapped (<---- outdated username!)

[Ohio]

Well, I know the Lord is coming back, and will not give any signs when that will be, could be today and could be 1000 years from now.

The time is near. When the Thessalonians asked if the Lord had already come, Paul gave 2 events which must occur first. He said the man of sin must be revealed and the apostasy must take place.

The man of sin will be revealed during the middle of Daniel’s 70th week of years, when he enters the Rebuilt Temple and declares himself god.

The second event will be the apostasy, characterized by a strong delusion given by God to those who reject the love of the truth. I hear so many Christian ministers speak of a great Revival coming to the church, but Paul prophecies of a falling away, a departure, a rebellion of sorts.

Based on the Biblical timeline of 7 years from the beginning of the final week, enacted by a covenant between Israel and the prince enabling the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, we might not know the day or the hour of His return, but we can know the month and the year. This will be His public return prophesied in Acts chapter 1.

[Ohio]

Most of them don't want to hear it. If you mention any problem, they will rationalize, justify, pretend, everything but see the problem as an actual problem.

Yet WL told them that the LCs had become Laodicea. The letter to that church fits perfectly their situation.

When I would hear WL say this, I would get upset because he never took any responsibility for what we had become. How could he blame us for becoming Laodicea, and yet pretend that it was all our fault?

[JJ]

The time is near. When the Thessalonians asked if the Lord had already come, Paul gave 2 events which must occur first. He said the man of sin must be revealed and the apostasy must take place.

The man of sin will be revealed during the middle of Daniel’s 70th week of years, when he enters the Rebuilt Temple and declares himself god.

The second event will be the apostasy, characterized by a strong delusion given by God to those who reject the love of the truth. I hear so many Christian ministers speak of a great Revival coming to the church, but Paul prophecies of a falling away, a departure, a rebellion of sorts.

Based on the Biblical timeline of 7 years from the beginning of the final week, enacted by a covenant between Israel and the prince enabling the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, we might not know the day or the hour of His return, but we can know the month and the year. This will be His public return prophesied in Acts chapter 1.

Right, the time is near. Jews are preparing to rebuild the temple and restore the Levitical priesthood plus sacrifices (Google “The Temple Institute in Jerusalem” and “Middle East Peace Process”)

Paul was repeating what Jesus had taught in Matthew 24 to the Thessalonians (https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/24.htm). The preaching of the gospel to the whole earth is another requirement for Jesus’ coming and His main point is to be ready at all times, not beat our fellow servants of Christ, and not eat and drink with drunkards thinking His return isn’t near.

Did we really get into “when will Christ return” on the thread of “Are we to be Drunk with the Spirit.”? Squirrel!

[DeducingLSM]

Hello forum,
I was reading in A Lesson Book, Level 3: Two Spirits—the Divine Spirit and the Human Spirit, msg. 14: The Difference between the Spirit and the Soul, and found this following quote a bit perplexing:
Although the Bible clearly shows that Satan entered into man's body, using it as a base to mingle himself with the soul, we cannot find one hint in the Scriptures that Satan has ever entered man's spirit. This is very interesting.I know that this is very difficult subject to cover, because in Lee’s teachings he diabolically pronounces and assigns things to one extreme or another. I was just thinking if there is even Biblical support to this idea or even a link of any kind to consider this to be true. No where in scriptures do we find that after the fall, a human spirit was “exempt” or not touched by the fall? Am I wrong? Isn’t the whole idea of “being born of the Spirit” that Jesus spoke about actually clearly states that the human spirit is/was dead after the fall?
Thanks

[Trapped]

Hello forum,
I was reading in A Lesson Book, Level 3: Two Spirits—the Divine Spirit and the Human Spirit, msg. 14: The Difference between the Spirit and the Soul, and found this following quote a bit perplexing:

Although the Bible clearly shows that Satan entered into man's body, using it as a base to mingle himself with the soul, we cannot find one hint in the Scriptures that Satan has ever entered man's spirit. This is very interesting.

I know that this is very difficult subject to cover, because in Lee’s teachings he diabolically pronounces and assigns things to one extreme or another. I was just thinking if there is even Biblical support to this idea or even a link of any kind to consider this to be true. No where in scriptures do we find that after the fall, a human spirit was “exempt” or not touched by the fall? Am I wrong? Isn’t the whole idea of “being born of the Spirit” that Jesus spoke about actually clearly states that the human spirit is/was dead after the fall?
Thanks

Welcome to the forum, DeducingLSM! (if this is your first time?)

Before I respond to your full post, can I ask you a question first? When Lee says "although the Bible clearly shows that Satan entered into man's body".....do you believe what Lee says there? Do you think Lee is right that "Satan entered into man's body"?

Trapped

[DeducingLSM]

Welcome to the forum, DeducingLSM! (if this is your first time?)

Before I respond to your full post, can I ask you a question first? When Lee says "although the Bible clearly shows that Satan entered into man's body".....do you believe what Lee says there? Do you think Lee is right that "Satan entered into man's body"?

Trapped

Hello Trapped, not my first time. I'm the one who started this thread awhile back, but looks like people don't like to many "unregistered guests" here so I just picked a name not to cause confusion.

To answer your question, I for a long while had believed that notion while in LC. I have since been convinced that there is no Biblical proof or even a single verse that states that to be the case, so I don't believe it anymore. Sin does not equal Satan, so "Satan entered into man's body" and mingled with men as per Lee or Nee is adding to Scriptures.

The reason I believe he is also wrong about men's spirit was untouched by the fall, further illustrates his complete arrogance and devaluation of man's responsibility and blame for the fall. In seeking to find a scapegoat for his own sinfulness, he passed the buck to satan, rather than taking full responsibility for his own life and choices basically making man a victim of some bigger fight between God vs Satan. Also, if our spirit was untouched by the fall, which he claims is the "organ" by which we participate in God, then the whole work of the reconciliation of men to God done by Christ is unnecessary and in vain. Just my view of it, so take it for what's it worth.

[Trapped]

Hello Trapped, not my first time. I'm the one who started this thread awhile back, but looks like people don't like to many "unregistered guests" here so I just picked a name not to cause confusion.

To answer your question, I for a long while had believed that notion while in LC. I have since been convinced that there is no Biblical proof or even a single verse that states that to be the case, so I don't believe it anymore. Sin does not equal Satan, so "Satan entered into man's body" and mingled with men as per Lee or Nee is adding to Scriptures.

100% in agreement with you here!

The reason I believe he is also wrong about men's spirit was untouched by the fall, further illustrates his complete arrogance and devaluation of man's responsibility and blame for the fall. In seeking to find a scapegoat for his own sinfulness, he passed the buck to satan, rather than taking full responsibility for his own life and choices basically making man a victim of some bigger fight between God vs Satan. Also, if our spirit was untouched by the fall, which he claims is the "organ" by which we participate in God, then the whole work of the reconciliation of men to God done by Christ is unnecessary and in vain. Just my view of it, so take it for what's it worth.

Oh I completely agree with you that Lee downplayed man's responsibility regarding sin. He made sin into something that just "got into man" rather than man's disobedience in choosing to sin.

I'll tell you my view. It's free, so also take it for whatever it's worth, but I personally do not believe that some kind of "nature change" occurred when man fell. I have not been able to find a record of it in the Bible. Eve was deceived and Adam committed a sin, and God drove them out of the garden in punishment. I just don't see anything that indicates there was a change in nature when they fell.

When Eph. 2:1 says we were "dead in our offenses and sins", I don't consider this some kind of "dead spirit"; I consider it to be referring to the fact that when we have sinned and are living in our sins prior to accepting Christ, we are doomed to die. "On death row" so to speak.

Or when Ephesians 2:5 says "made alive with Christ", I don't think this refers to a deadened spirit being made alive, but just means we have the promise of eternal life, of being raised to life.

Or when 1 Peter 3:18 says Christ was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, I think this is referring to being raised with an imperishable spiritual body (i.e. made alive in the Spirit). This is the same thing that will happen to us - the mortal will put on immortality, the perishable clothed with imperishable (1 Cor. 15:54). It's speaking of our being given a spiritual body, not that somehow there we had a deadened spirit there inside of us.

Related to your observation that without a dead spirit then Christ's reconciliation work is in vain, I guess my thought is the transgression itself is what caused the need for reconciliation. Just like if you directly disobey your parents, the relationship gets damaged, and there is patching up and apology and reconciliation that occurs. The only difference is, our parents don't say "the wages of sin is death" to us. But for God, the wages of sin is death, and so we can't patch it up. So Christ had to die to take our punishment for us and reconcile us back to God.

I feel like what I just wrote it all over the place, but I guess my point is I don't see anywhere that says our spirit as an organ was deadened. I would agree that we could describe our position in relation to God as "spiritually dead" before believing, but I think that's a descriptive way of speaking, rather than meaning our actual "spirit was dead". Again, just my thoughts. Feel free to say "but what about xyz?" I haven't thought it through in detail but these are the first things that came up as I thought about it a little.

Trapped