The Book of Matt

[Matt Anderson]

Please moderate me.
Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Please moderate me.
Matt

Nice to see you again Moderator.

[Matt Anderson]

I've been moderated. Everything feels right as rain. More sooner or later... Just saying hi and making sure I am still able to post in this wonderful site!!!



Matt

[UntoHim]

What a tease! We don't hear from you in almost 6 years and you pull this %$#&...Don't keep us in suspense too long, us old geezers can't take it.

[TLFisher]

Welcome back Matt!

[Matt Anderson]

Wow! Six years, you are right. It has been that long. I had to sit and think about it for a minute to realize how long it has been. As they say, time flies.

As it is with most people, much is the same and much has changed.

I will be a responsible Local Church Discussions poster and cover some LC and LC related stuff first.

1. I haven't paid a lot of attention to Local Church matters over the past six years. A little bit, but not a lot. When I was on the forum and moderating, I felt it was a responsibility given to me by the Lord. Once I was released by the Lord, I was ready to go in some new directions.

2. I have read the book by the Chinese sister about Watchman Nee. Very interesting and eye opening. I have no condemnation of Watchman Nee. He sinned. I hope he confessed as often as he sinned. He's my brother in Christ. There are some things I received from Nee that I believe came from the Lord. There's leaven too. It's my responsibility to understand the difference. I hope Nee received a full deliverance from the demonic affliction and involvement he had that is evidenced by what this sister shared. We all need deliverance from bondage in our lives and to be set FREE to serve the Lord Jesus Christ with a fully free heart!

3. I was given a book by an ex-Local Church member who never knew about the forum. It is called "Genuine Spiritual Authority" by David Dyer. David is the person who gave me the book and authored it. It is somewhat of a response to Watchman Nee's book on Spiritual Authority. It is a very good book for anyone who has been or still is under the influence of Watchman Nee and/or Witness Lee's thinking on spiritual authority. When I received it, the book was not available electronically. Now it is available as a Kindle Book on Amazon for $0.99c. If it hasn't come up here on the forum before, I recommend it. It's not perfection, but I think it is VERY GOOD. Each person has to read it and discern for themselves.

4. During the time that I received this book, I was pursuing a study on Leadership, Authority, Submission and Obedience in the church. This study in the Word of God is one of a small number of more intense studies I have felt to dig into with the Lord's help. I feel that I got a lot of light and clarity that I had not previously had on this subject. However, I am still a student on this subject and no teacher. I am really glad I did this study. I have recorded portions of this study on my web-site (http://laymansfellowship.com/roadmap-to-laymans/). It's definitely not perfect and it is not even finished as you will see from the roadmap link. Most recently, through a friend I may have someone who is a full greek scholar who will go through what I have studied and point out the issues in my research. I'm sure there are some since I am not a greek scholar.

5. Just as I concluded part (on Hebrews 13:17) of the study I mentioned in #4 and documented on my site (http://laymansfellowship.com/table-o...a-closer-look/), a couple arrived at my door through a mutual friend. This couple turned out to be part of a group that shares many, many, many common characteristics with the Local Church. It is possible that they were actually worse in their authoritarianism. There is one book that I read about them called, "The Bishop Maker" by Rhett Stuart (It's on Kindle too). This couple was in the process of exiting from this group. Their arrival was an answer to prayer for both of us. I had continued to ask the Lord to give me wisdom about the situation in the Local Churches of Witness Lee. There were (and are) still things that I felt I did not have the Lord's perspective. Through this couple and the group they were involved in, the Lord answered some very specific and important questions I had held. Without giving much detail, my study mentioned above came into full use because the primary theme verse used by the leadership of this group was Hebrews 13:17. Because of a family situation with this couple that I met, they were coming into direct conflict with some of the higher echelon of leadership in the church. We worked together to get through some very tricky waters and, Praise God!, their family is healing and coming back together rather than splintering as many others in the group have. They still have a road ahead to continue healing in their family, but the destruction that the Enemy had planned was thwarted. Most of the work in this situation was this couples' to do, but given my background, I was able to help them gain some mental clarity and encourage them to walk according to the "life and peace" that God gives each one of us in difficult times. I strongly encouraged them to follow through on even the very difficult interactions that were necessary and that God was giving them the "life and peace" to do. It's really hard to to do this, but they did it and it is having an excellent outcome for their family.

However the Lord did it, I don't know, but at one point I ended up in a room with the husband of this couple along with a select number of key leadership from this group and other witnesses. All my hundreds of hours of study on the one single verse of Hebrews 13:17 came to bear in that 4 hour conversation. I can't explain the full outcome here, but God is amazing in how He leads us and guides us into the things He has for each of us to do. We each have our little part and He gets all the glory when we all come together in operation of the Holy Spirit. It is hard to see much of the time, but we get glimpses and we marvel at His majesty, His power and His working among us. There is nothing He can't heal. There is nothing He will fail to accomplish according to His love.

I shared this 5th item (and it is relevant to this forum) because my time on the forum and moderating the forum was a preparation for my part in this "good work" the Lord had designed in advance. Without my time on the forum and moderating I would not have had the ability to help this couple properly.

So, thank you...

Other Things... unrelated to the Local Churches...

1. Family - Picture attached. I'm the ugly one . We are doing well. I have two daughters who are 7 and 5. One of them is just like me in looks, personality, etc (scary, but in a good way if I don't screw up to badly) and the other one is just like my wife. They match the meaning of their names. The one that is like me has a name that means "son or child of Matt" (no kidding). We both liked the name and didn't pick it for it's meaning, but it fits. The other one means "my delight" and it is also a perfect fit.

2. Cuba - within a year of stopping my parcipation on the forum, I began to get involved with some of what the Lord is doing in Cuba. To say the least, it is pretty amazing. I don't know what the Lord has planned for me in this matter, but my involvement has continued to grow over the past five years. It started with a pretty simple verse from the Lord about the boy with five loaves and two fishes. He was showing me that something I was doing was like that and to put it in His hands and let Him do the work. It's truly amazing when the Lord speaks such simple things with profound outcomes. I can share more about this if there is interest, but it is OFF-TOPIC!!! I mention it because it is one of the more important things that the Lord has put in my path since the forum.

3. Church Involvement - I cannot remember if I ever clearly shared on the forum before what my church journey has been. Here is my summary and current situation. I was never a member of the Local Churches of Witness Lee by my own choosing. I was born into it, but my parents left by the time I was at an age where I would choose my own involvements. I was a believer and part of the Body of Christ, just no specific local body. Starting at age 17-18, I felt the Lord had shown me that I was not supposed to join any specific church. I could attend, but not join. This is still true for me today, but I understand it to be inclusive not exclusive. I am a believer in the Body of Christ and I recognize all other believers across any lines or smaller groupings that they might acknowledge. There are no boundaries in my mind. Just one body. This is a spiritual reality for which I am not seeking a physical, local expression that I can point at with my finger and see with my physical eyes. I have witnessed it in operation at various times and it goes across the boundaries that men acknowledge.

So, starting at age 17-18, I have had two distinct phases of my life related to church.

Phase 1 - no membership and not much "regular attendance" at a specific church. I went here and there, but was clear that my primary responsibility before the Lord was to follow him. One of my longer term friends who has watched this process jokingly tells me that this was my "back side of the desert" phase. That phase last 15 years. Phase 2 (10 years) Starting in 2005, I received a phone call from a sister in Christ (a mom I knew grewing up) who I hadn't spoken to for a while. She had a simple word from the Lord for me. "It's time to find a church and go". This was a confirmation for me of something else the Lord was speaking at that time from the book of Haggai.

Phase 2 - So, over the past 10 years, I have been a regular attender at 4 churches. (a) An ex-Baptist, turned non-denominational church, (b) a "Brethren" church (probably best classified as "Open Brethren"), (c) a more contemporary non-denominational church and (d) the church we are at now which I cannot classify. It's too confusing to classify and there are very few people there who have a common background. The roots of the church come from the Mennonite church, but they have clearly moved away from the Mennonite approach. Without going on about it, I can say that our current church has the presence of the Lord in ways that are unlike anything at any of the other 3 churches I have attended. The only comparison I can make goes back to home meetings that were post-LC, but included "refugees" from the LC and other churches that I participated in briefly in the mid-90's. In summary, I no longer ask the question "What is the best church" and then try to find it. I now just ask God, "Where do you want ME to be and I go there". Sometimes it is suffering (2 of the 4 churches I mention were more of a suffering for me). Sometimes it is a joy (2 churches were more of a joy). I now believe my personal experience of the church doesn't matter. My agreement or disagreement with the theology doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is to go where the Lord asks me to go and to find out (as time goes on) why He wanted me to be there. Sometimes it is for me. Sometimes it is for others. Sometimes I don't know and just wait until he shows me or releases me to go elsewhere.

4. Work - yep, still working... Thank you, Jesus!

Signed: A little less of a tease, Matt

[aron]

In the study on Hebrews 13:17 you wrote:

"God intentionally structured the church environment NOT to have the same kind of authority structure as other realms of life, but not because he wanted chaos or rebellion. It is because he wants for each of us to come into a fully obedient walk with Him in proper coordination with all of our brothers and sisters in Christ."

In the LC church it was the opposite. The LC leadership demanded more authority than family, government, or job. You weren't supposed to get a job, move, or get married apart from "fellowship" from the "brothers". Thankfully, we were allowed to decide what to eat for lunch! But beyond that we were tightly controlled.

To me it was great because I didn't have to think anymore. Just do what Big Brother wanted. What a relief! All the worries and cares of life - gone. Just be "one in the local church" and everything is fine. Likewise, vagarities and uncertainties were banished in the LC kingdom, under the umbrella of WN and WL's certitude. Whatever they said, that was reality expressed. And you could still cultivate a relationship with God, regarding your lunch menu. So it was the best of both worlds, or so I thought.

Eventually though, the "still small voice within" either had to be repressed and ignored, or I had to challenge the voice of authority in the LC. Because some of what they were teaching and some of the Bible just didn't square. So I left, and went back to the realm of uncertainty and failure.

Interestingly, I did the opposite of your testimony. I went right into "Christianity" and got very active. One thing the LC changed in me is that I became a noisy Christian. So after going into the Podunk Community Church I went right up next to Pastor Bob, and when they asked me to introduce myself, out came a speech! Like Paul at Athens, or Peter with the eleven on Pentecost day: I had a podium and a message, a burden. And I never really stopped; but Pastor Bob seemed cool with it because this noisy layman in church wasn't threatening his authority. I wasn't seeking a kingdom for myself, I just wanted to make noise in church. After several years, I moved and didn't bother joining a church in my new home town. Occasionally I'd visit Sunday morning church services, and still have fellowship at work, with family and friends, etc. But that seems to be enough. Maybe God needs me to be "on the backside of the mountain" for a while.

Lastly, there was something in your essay which I wanted to quote but couldn't find again. You wrote, "It's important not to ascribe evil intention toward those with whom you disagree. Their heart may be as pure as yours, or moreso, but they're caught by bad ideas." I am paraphrasing, obviously, but that's so important to keep up front! Who can say who's good and who's evil? I cannot - but God has given me the capacity to say, "This is a bad idea, for reasons A, B, and C." I'm still buffeted by bad ideas myself, and struggle with dark forces that I can't see, or name. So who am I to remonstrate against my fellow servants? But at the same time, bad teachings (i.e. ideas which significantly deviate from the holistic view of the scriptures) should be called out.

Occasionally I cross the line and become prickly and uncharitable, and for that I do apologize. I can get too worked up in my own argument! But it's good to be in an environment in which you're quickly "right-sized" by others. I'm grateful for my experience posting here.

[Cal]

Hi Matt! Glad you are well and happy. With a beautiful family like that it must be easy!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In the study on Hebrews 13:17 you wrote:

"God intentionally structured the church environment NOT to have the same kind of authority structure as other realms of life, but not because he wanted chaos or rebellion. It is because he wants for each of us to come into a fully obedient walk with Him in proper coordination with all of our brothers and sisters in Christ."

In the LC church it was the opposite. The LC leadership demanded more authority than family, government, or job. You weren't supposed to get a job, move, or get married apart from "fellowship" from the "brothers". Thankfully, we were allowed to decide what to eat for lunch! But beyond that we were tightly controlled.

Especially during the "new way" nonsense of the 80's, the LC's operated like the Chinese military machinery with Lee as Commander-in-Chief, and his son Phillip as Field Marshall Rommel. Talk about an abuse of authority!

In the wake of the LCM, we must address certain issues which were used by Nee, Lee, and Blended We to lord it over us. The chief of these teachings was their so-called Deputy Authority, which was loosely based on a twisted understanding of Hebrews 13.17. Hopefully we can have some further discussions using "Genuine Spiritual Authority" by David Dyer.

I entered the LC's at a time when the freedoms of the Spirit still were enjoyed, at least in greater Ohio. Things quickly changed over time, however, with regional leaders like Titus Chu continually assuaging our consciences that "all was well with Lee." By that time we were all basically numb to abuse. For me personally, it was actually my reading of Matt's mother's book Thread of Gold which first signaled me, "Houston, we got a problem," a very serious problem indeed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I entered the LC's at a time when the freedoms of the Spirit still were enjoyed, at least in greater Ohio. Things quickly changed over time, however, with regional leaders like Titus Chu continually assuaging our consciences that "all was well with Lee." By that time we were all basically numb to abuse. For me personally, it was actually my reading of Matt's mother's book Thread of Gold which first signaled me, "Houston, we got a problem," a very serious problem indeed.

I also saw the transition from the Local Church that was fairly autonomous, at least in day-to-day affairs, to one that was brought "into close coordination" with Headquarters, all "to further God's move on Earth" of course. And the freedom which was once to be found in the Spirit departed, in my estimation.

Another thing about Matt's testimony that is helpful is that he's seen other groups that have "authority issues". This broader perspective, I think, can save us from "good Nee, bad Lee" or "good Lee, bad Blendeds" or other value judgments. When people get caught by bad ideas they are more prone to do bad things. It could happen to anyone. And the "lording it over the saints", however it is phrased, or dressed up, has a long and distinguished history. So it's good to see it for what it is, more clearly, and not get caught in personality fixations, for either good or ill.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Another thing about Matt's testimony that is helpful is that he's seen other groups that have "authority issues". This broader perspective, I think, can save us from "good Nee, bad Lee" or "good Lee, bad Blendeds" or other value judgments. When people get caught by bad ideas they are more prone to do bad things. It could happen to anyone. And the "lording it over the saints", however it is phrased, or dressed up, has a long and distinguished history. So it's good to see it for what it is, more clearly, and not get caught in personality fixations, for either good or ill.

Can you say more about this, there's something I'm not getting.

In my mind, if a minister gets caught by bad ideas, and does bad things, then the guy's before and after states could be readily classified as "good guy, bad guy." If these are "value judgments," then I'm as guilty as any, but my thought is basically "beneficial to us, harmful to us," and not that the guy is inherently evil, and I am judging the guy's heart.

[aron]

Ohio,

I guess my thinking here is not that Nee or Lee were devious, or crooked, or perverted, any more than anyone else. Who knows? But they were surely caught by a bad idea, which begot many more.

When you see assembly after assembly having "authority issues", like Matt did, it brings some perspective, and you can look beyond the actual actor(s) but rather see the unseen forces manipulating them into bad behavior.

More data points gives you more perspective. If you only see one group, you can just blame it all on Lee, or Nee, or the Blendeds, or TC, or whomever. But when you see it happen again and again, then you start to see a pattern, and you can let go of any feelings of judgmentalism against any people. You can forgive and let go. Because you see the real enemy: it isn't WL or WN or TC or the Blendeds. It is the spiritual forces that disguise themselves and come into the assembly and say, in effect, "I am in charge here". We unwittingly let a usurper in charge, and then we blame the vehicle instead of realizing that they were a pawn in a larger game.

As usual, I'm probably making little if any sense.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by aron

More data points gives you more perspective. If you only see one group, you can just blame it all on Lee, or Nee, or the Blendeds, or TC, or whomever. But when you see it happen again and again, then you start to see a pattern, and you can let go of any feelings of judgmentalism against any people. You can forgive and let go. Because you see the real enemy: it isn't WL or WN or TC or the Blendeds. It is the spiritual forces that disguise themselves and come into the assembly and say, in effect, "I am in charge here". We unwittingly let a usurper in charge, and then we blame the vehicle instead of realizing that they were a pawn in a larger game.

As usual, I'm probably making little if any sense.

You're making perfect sense and exactly on track in my mind. I had a number of questions before the Lord that were answered as I interacted with this second group.

The most important one was a realization about 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and how it applied to the LC.

The group I came across is a "nameless" group that I think was more severe than the LC.

The two main characters in their past that are easiest to find on the internet are Maurice Johnson and Robert A. Groves.

Here are a few links about them.

- http://www.bibletruths.org/ - site sponsored by the group
- http://www.churchgrowth.cc/content_cult_RAG.htm - opposed to the group
- http://factnet.org/vbforum/forum/rel...istries-church - opposed to the group

Matt

[aron]

When we are young, we may be enthusiastic, and energetic, and pure of heart. (see e.g. "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God", with "Do not forbid these young ones to come to Me, for their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father")

But the older we get, the more data points we accumulate. We are not faster, smarter, better, or more noble. But we are more experienced. We see more, hopefully. The "exclusive groups" who teach that truth can only be found in their circles and everyone else is hopelessly corrupt, try to prevent the accumulation of data points. All you get is one data point. Only the "truths" of the group are allowed to make sense of the world.

So the acolytes in the group, even though getting older, retain a certain naivete which they find very hard to overcome. No data points are allowed into the picture to change the view. The truth, the vision, is fixed, and static. And one is easily caught by simplistic arguments like, "WL is the apostle of the age, and God's oracle", versus "WL was a swindler and a cheat." Or, "WL was God's chosen 'man of the hour', and now it's DYL and/or TC; the Blendeds are merely usurpers." Etc, etc... either way, the narrative thrust lacks a healthy perspective and objectivity, and seems unable to consider or absorb new information.

Paul said, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision"... I argue that "the heavenly vision" includes repeatedly getting knocked down off of your high horse as new data points emerge. Did God only speak once, evermore to be silent? No, God speaks, and the Word is living and operative, and as it operates the old world that you once loved dissolves. That's just the way it is. To me, that's intrinsic to the journey. How many times does the gospel narrative say, "And they were astonished beyond measure"? Is there some point in our journey here, where we're no longer supposed to learn, grow, and change?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

The most important one was a realization about 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and how it applied to the LC.

The group I came across is a "nameless" group that I think was more severe than the LC.

The two main characters in their past that are easiest to find on the internet are Maurice Johnson and Robert A. Groves.

Interesting. I read a few testimonies. More severe than the LC is right. One guy got reprimanded for getting distracted building his house and missing meetings. Then when he didn't grovel before the the Big Boss, and copped an attitude, they booted him. Others protested at his shabby treatment and they booted them. Other congregations protested at what they saw happening and they booted them, too!

So they had a major "turmoil" because one guy missed some meetings.

boston was not a registered non profit at the time of the WL explosion in 1978. they tried to steal the certificate from Natick when it went under in 1979 but I had paid for it and would not give it to them. all the money donated was not tax deductible. i was with sal as he heard WL tell about his corruption.

[UntoHim]

Thanks Bill for that little tidbit of info!

Please consider registering for the Forum and tell us a little more about your experience in New England in those days. So are you saying you were in Sal's house that day he made the infamous taped call to Witness Lee?