Moniker & a March off the Ground

Indiana · 09-02-2008, 12:14 AM

I would like to share a few things with you in the link below.

www.twoturmoils.com/Indiana3.pdf

countmeworthy · 10-03-2008, 01:40 PM

I'm trying to play catch up here.....Indy..Thanks for sharing your journey in Christ while in Seattle, Indianapolis and Chicago.

I came into 'the church' in 1975...and for me the downfall of the LC came about in 1978/79.

I never struggled leading someone to Christ but I sure struggled in bringing them to 'the church'. I know the 'ground of oneness' was a big thing for everyone. I didn't have much trouble with that teaching per sae because I was already 'grounded' in the LC. I had saints I fellowshipped with and I was over all comfy with the church life in San Diego.

But bringing people into the LC..well. That was another story. I didn't know why I struggled with it as I was 'happy' there. In looking back, I think, I was troubled with the doctrine of the 'ground of oneness'. If there had never been such a teaching..and our 'ground of oneness' was our LORD Jesus CHRIST, everything would have fallen into place I believe.

Still, over all were my years in the LC in San Diego were good years for me...even though I was quite in the 'fire' being refined quite a bit

...to God be the Glory.

Now I have a couple of questions for you regarding your comments:

The word of God poured into me in those days as I spent between 7-9 times a
day with the Lord in the Word and writings

Regarding 'writings', whose writings did you read? Were you 'allowed' to read writings other than Nee's and Lee's..and those they allowed you to read..that is in the LC bookstores?

When you or any other saint testified about someone's writings, were they ever anyone else's writing other than Nee, Lee or those 'blessed' by Lee?

For example, did anyone ever get up at a meeting..or in small fellowship say something like 'WOW...I just read Smith Wigglesworth biography !'

I bring it up because, Nee and Lee's writings and those writings 'blessed' by Lee himself, is what the saints fellowshipped about coupled with their thoughts/experiences from the Word of God...which is known as the BIBLE.

That's all 'fine' until we knew by unspoken language we did not read anyone's works unless it was sanctioned by the Lee ministry.

The next observation I made is this:

The LINGO...the LC lingo!! Here is an example from your testimony:

Christ as our only center and enjoyment and people could join our fellowship and have
the sense within them that they were home. And, they were home as believers in Christ on a proper ground of oneness.

I listen to believers who were never in the LC speak...and ya know, they never use the terminology we used in the LC.

There is nothing particularly wrong with the lingo itself..however it sure rings of 'exclusiveness'. We just weren't like 'Christianity'...and we wanted to make sure we stood out.

IF that was the motive..& I think it was..it was wrong of us...I blame all of us because we blindly allowed ourselves to speak like the 'leading ones'.

May the Lord Jesus Christ become Numero UNO again in our fellowship one with another.

It's time if you ask me, we crush the devil's head & all of his cronies with the Word of God as the Sword of our spirit and with our love for the brethren & the unbelievers. When we love our God with all of our hearts, souls, minds, body and of course our spirit...and we love our neighbors as we love ourselves..which includes all the brethren and the unbelievers, surely the devil has to shut up once and for all as we execute his judgment alongside our KING JESUS!

Indiana · 10-29-2008, 11:23 PM

Count, I see that you asked me questions a while back, Oct 3 -

You had asked me, -"Regarding 'writings', whose writings did you read? Were you 'allowed' to read writings other than Nee's and Lee's..and those they allowed you to read..that is in the LC bookstores?"

At that time, as has been shared, Witness Lee was in the background of the church, not the foreground. Although I was in the church only a year and a half, and fresh out of the world, I got in on the last couple years of a revival. The atmosphere was electric.

In my second month in the church we piled into cars (Feb 1971) and headed for San Francisco from Seattle, driving 15 hours, and through the night till daybreak and in time for the first meeting of a conference with Brother Lee.

Everyone across the country looked forward to conferences with him (also conf. with Ingalls, Barber, Mallon). On the way back to Seattle, at a rest stop a brother exhorted that we spend time with the Lord, individually. We did so and got into the word of God and prayer on our own.

This was an exceedingly strong practice that I was introduced to upon coming into the church in Seattle, as the saints were well-grounded in the word of God and in the morning watch and in spending time with the Lord. They knew that “an eating church was a functioning church”. The ministry was secondary, though a huge help; but the Bible was primary.

Praying the word of God into us was our essential practice that resulted in an overflow of the saints’ giving their testimonies in the meetings of their experience of Christ. “Eating Christ for the building up of the church” was a recurring theme in my first three years in the church – Jan 1971 - 1974.

The ministry of Witness Lee had its proper place, and so did the word of God. In the bookroom were precious books by Nee and Lee, but there were no announcements “every week” of new books coming out and there was no campaigning to follow Lee and his ministry. On the cover of some of Lee’s writings were merely his initials – W. L. The few books that were available had plain covers, but those plain covers and the content of the books, were so attractive to me. I gained so much from the ministry of Witness Lee.

In answer to your question, we not only felt free to read other books, we were encouraged to read them. Andrew Murray, George Mueller, Hannah-Whitehall Smith, Suzannah Wesley (John Wesley’s wife, she had writings on raising children that were taken very much to heart by Seattle sisters, as she was an amazing woman of God.). Madame Guyon’s writings were treasured the most by Seattle sisters, and also by many brothers. WL and Nee had spoken highly of her and her spiritual experience. Jessie Penn-Lewis was prized reading in the church in Seattle.

The book on intercessory prayer by Rees Howell was read by many saints. Biographies and the Brethren writings were widely read, such as Panton’s Earth’s Earliest Ages. We were free to read and to learn, and this freedom continued well into the eighties.

And, yes, a brother or sister could freely share in the meetings about their appreciation of the fellowship in books they were reading outside of Nee and Lee. Christ was really the center. He was also the attraction. It didn’t matter what we were doing that might have seemed different or peculiar to a newcomer; the Attraction of Christ often outweighed the concern new ones may have had.

Troubles come when our Center has competition from a second center, as indicated in what John Myer of Columbus has actually been dealing with from his beginnings in the church life in 1984. He shared in his latest chapter about a couple he and his wife were caring for who came to their meeting: – “Immediately after the meeting, the couple disappeared but not before paying a quick visit to the church library to confirm their other suspicion—that we were a Witness Lee church. I had fed them the standing-on-the-shoulders-of-those-who-went-before-us apologetic to prove our inclusiveness, but rows and rows of books bearing one name and one publishing house uniformly reinforced the opposite idea”. – end quote

I understand the idea of Brother Lee having stood on the shoulders of others. But he did not remain in the background in the churches. He was brought forward. When he, his ministry, and the office became inordinately lifted up in the churches, another center was created and Witness Lee came to the foreground in the local churches.

Magnetism of Earlier Era

Another quote by John in his latest chapter: “After years…I began to grudgingly admit that something was broken. Apparently the Local Church meetings that had exerted such magnetism toward seekers in an earlier era had quietly slipped into extinction.”

That extinction began in 1974 with the advent of trainings under brother Witness Lee (See Don Rutledge history or Deviating from the Path.) As the New Center began to emerge and come to the foreground, the magnetism was sliding away and it has never returned. Obsessive attention has been given to the second center bringing in confusion, chaos, and division in the local churches – and the testimony, impact and Attraction that once had its day in the local churches has become diluted, mixed, and compromised.

Thus the need to study local church history in a serious manner to trace the diversion from Christ alone.

Local Church Terminologies

CMW, You also mentioned your concern about using terms found only in the local church, such as the words I used about Christ being “our only center and enjoyment and people had the sense within them that they were home” in the church.

But language is a part of a culture and if the words of local church language have resonated in my heart and in my spirit it would follow that I will want to use some of that language with those of that culture, and sometimes with those outside the culture. There really is no rule about this, but to follow “the sense within”. Yet, as a kind of “rule” the more normal our language the better with ones inside or outside the culture.

Your concern is understood by many, I’m sure, and by me. But I would hope that the LC use of the language is not so that the local churches would “stand out” from other Christians due to an impure kind of motivation among the leadership or the saints. I think you indicated that you felt that this was the case, that they are trying to stand out.

I think rather that WL strove for the highest utterances and labored much on his choice of words to use, for the sake of the highest communication and the most meaningful expression. For this, I am thankful and will always be very appreciative.

Oregon · 10-30-2008, 06:48 AM

Thank you for sharing concerning the early years Indiana. It brought back pleasant memories of the glorious church life. I remember well those turning years of 74 to 75 when "the ministry" started to become the real center. That was the beginning of the downward slide. There was such a freshness in those early days which was gone form 1975 and on. CMW......don't take this as a personal critisism but the sponateous moving of the Spirit among us was gone before you even arrived. I'm not discounting your personal experience but anyone who was not in the church life from 1974 and ealier will never know what a newness of Spirit there was among us. The organization that came in over time quenched the moving of God's Spirit among us. It reminds me of the account in Ezekiel when the glory of God slowly departed from God's house....the temple.

Ohio · 10-30-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

Thank you for sharing concerning the early years Indiana. It brought back pleasant memories of the glorious church life. I remember well those turning years of 74 to 75 when "the ministry" started to become the real center. That was the beginning of the downward slide. There was such a freshness in those early days which was gone form 1975 and on. CMW......don't take this as a personal critisism but the sponateous moving of the Spirit among us was gone before you even arrived. I'm not discounting your personal experience but anyone who was not in the church life from 1974 and earlier will never know what a newness of Spirit there was among us. The organization that came in over time quenched the moving of God's Spirit among us. It reminds me of the account in Ezekiel when the glory of God slowly departed from God's house ... the temple.

Good points, Oregon.

I would like to hear more about this transition period during the mid 70's. When first contacted the LC's at this time, the "electricity" was still there in Cleveland, but the "voltage" was slowly transitioning from the focus on "Christ, only Christ" to "one with the ministry." The changes did come slower for us here in Ohio-land. We have always been a little "behind the times," as they say. Thank the Lord for that.

History tells us that "the freshness in those early days" and "the spontaneous moving of the Spirit among us," had little to do with WL per se, and had everything to do with the moving of the Holy Spirit. He did minister riches from the word, and spending much time with WN, his ministry was much enriched, but as time wore on, he demanded that the LC's be more about his ministry than about the Lord.

Ironically, were the Holy Spirit to once again pour out rich blessings on our land, perhaps as a result of the present economic chaos, the LSM/LC's would have no way to receive it. Their so-called "God-ordained way" is really nothing more than "human ways and means." This very thing happened to the Plymouth Brethren exclusives just 10 years after George Muller et al were so iniquitously "quarantined" by JNDarby and his minions such as Wigram and Trotter. The exclusive congregations had no way to contain the blessing of the Spirit poured out in the late 1850's, and which spread to the States during the civil war. They were still forcing new guests and converts to judge the likes of Muller's "declaration of independence." Can you believe it? Some of their stories belong in the "strange, but true" category of human history. Oh the stench of religious pride!

The condemned "Opens," who refused to judge the godly and fruitful Muller of Bristol, and bow down to Darby's ultimatums, received much blessing everywhere, with many gifted evangelists raised up in their midst. How could God bless such condemned brothers? In all of church history, only Martin Luther can rival George Muller for the amount of condemnation heaped on his head. God's blessing, however, reached all His children in all congregations, including the Baptists and the Presbyterians. Even the Anglican church of England was benefited. Imagine that! God was not bound by denominationalism!

But, sadly, God was bound by the judgmental narrowness and religious prejudices of the Darby exclusives, who reaped little blessing, and seemed to spend all their days writing books and teaching one another about the "riches of Christ."

countmeworthy · 10-31-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

Thank you for sharing concerning the early years Indiana. It brought back pleasant memories of the glorious church life. I remember well those turning years of 74 to 75 when "the ministry" started to become the real center. That was the beginning of the downward slide. There was such a freshness in those early days which was gone form 1975 and on. CMW......don't take this as a personal critisism but the sponateous moving of the Spirit among us was gone before you even arrived. I'm not discounting your personal experience but anyone who was not in the church life from 1974 and ealier will never know what a newness of Spirit there was among us. The organization that came in over time quenched the moving of God's Spirit among us. It reminds me of the account in Ezekiel when the glory of God slowly departed from God's house....the temple.

Yes Oregon.

I've read about the Glorious experience the church life was before I came in.

I, of course, have nothing to compare my experience with. I had not even been in the Christian community before 1975! I did not know the Lord at all.

Max had just left San Diego when I came in...and the saints that took care of me, truly did a marvelous job in nurturing me in the Word and in fellowship to the Glory of God. May the LORD truly bless them for taking care of me like they did..leading me in the path of Righteousness!

For my part, I also sought the LORD privately in my prayer closet.

There were probably signs of 'the ministry' trickling in when I arrived but I didn't know any better. Furthermore, San Diego was a unique church in the 70's as 80 percent of the church were in their early 20's.

On any up note...I am the eternal optimist..and thus I not only believe but I KNOW the GLORY of GOD is returning to God's house...to God's people.

I'm already seeing it around me.

May the FAVOUR and LOVE of GOD be with us all for the Favor and LOVE of God opens doors that no man can shut!

Hope · 11-02-2008, 06:36 AM

Great Thread,

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

We had two wonderful week-ends first in Westminster and then Arizona. The Lord led us to consider “Our Fellowship” based upon 1 John 1:1-7 and the portion in Romans chapter 1 verses one, eight and twelve: Rom 1:8, First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

A couple of new expressions came out which were very helpful. One was the difference between DC fellowship and AC fellowship. The other was some practical help on how to individually stay in the fellowship with the Lord when we have an “Elijah Moment” see 1 Kings 19.

I believe the forum is moving in a very good direction. I have been very occupied with family, business and church over the last many weeks and am catching up on the forum posts. Since last spring, I felt to lay aside my writing on the history and consider how to address the years after 1973. I have noticed the effort by many to understand our history by constructs such as early Lee, early Nee and later Lee and later Lee etc. I endorse strongly the view that there were definitely different eras in the history of the local churches. I desire to testify to what I have seen and heard myself directly. Thus, my early years were very different from the last few years. I now believe I must give much more detail to the wonderful times we enjoyed with Christ and His precious members. To understand the measure of the fall of the local churches and Brother Lee’s work, we must accurately describe the wonderful positive effects it had early on. At the same time, it is imperative to discover the seeds of the later years and learn from it. To see and understand this dichotomy has been a great help to me and others in recovering from the damage done to the faith and conscience of many.

I also believe I need to give much more detail concerning the various personalities that had a strong influence in shaping the history. The story of the local churches is also the story of John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So, Max Rapoport, Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, James Barber, Titus Chu, Bill Freeman and several others such as Phillip Lee, Paul Hon, Andrew Yu, Patsy Freeman and others.

To say all everywhere at all times were the same bunch of bad apples is way way off. When I have read posts about “the Evil Texas churches” the only posters were those who were in Houston and OK City. Ray Graver was the count Richelieu of the local churches and James Barber was known everywhere as “legal James”, an oppressor of the saints. I did notice that the only detractor who claimed to have been in Dallas was “Processed” who when her posts are put together was around 1-6 years of age while I may have been in Dallas and could not have experienced the excellent times we had there during the first 12 years. She also did not know who Don Looper was. I wonder how her father could have been an elder there in Dallas. I can only come up with one possibility and he was only there when this person was a very small child if it is he. I say this to warn you all that my history will tell the story of the good things of the Lord that we experiences which before 1974 was the essence and content of our history. I am considering going back to add in much detail to the early years. (Please feel free to advise.)

Finally, I strongly agree that we should discuss teachings and practices which led to the terrible outcomes we have seen. But it is not only the teachings that need to be considered but also the personalities that played an equally important role in our fall from grace.

A believer in Christ Jesus seeking to be a true disciple,

Hope, Don Rutledge

TLFisher · 11-03-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Thus, my early years were very different from the last few years. I now believe I must give much more detail to the wonderful times we enjoyed with Christ and His precious members. To understand the measure of the fall of the local churches and Brother Lee’s work, we must accurately describe the wonderful positive effects it had early on. At the same time, it is imperative to discover the seeds of the later years and learn from it.

Hope, would it be a stretch to say there has been repeated efforts trying to recapture, recreate, or manufacture the high peaks of an earlier time in the North American "recovery"? Would that explain why there has been one flow after another whith each new flow unable to duplicate what was so unique about the pre-LSM recovery?
No matter how genuine the efforts of brothers have been, we must remember th story about the manna in the Exodus. While the hebrews were in the wilderness, the manna was only good for that one day. Any efforts to store the manna, would cause the manna to spoil.

Terry

Hope · 11-03-2008, 06:06 PM

Terry,

I would rather say that all the flows came from a wrong understanding of God’s purpose and administration. As long as WL stayed in the background and fulfilled his role of a teacher who could assist other gifted persons in perfecting the saints that they, the saints, would do the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, the Lord could flow according to His plan and way. When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.”

The idea of following the flow was a development under the promotion of brothers such as James Barber, Max Rapoport, Benson Phillips and Ray Graver. They believed that the various local churches were parts of a network with the anointed minister of the age as the spiritual and deputy authority or today’s Paul. Each of these promoters desired to be an instrument to carry out what God was doing and that was not the building of the local churches directly but was realized in some proposal coming from the center.

Those who promoted “the flow principle” actually despised the blessings the various churches had known and declared repeatedly that the old was holding back the implementation of the latest flow. The keeping of the “Oneness of the Spirit”, which was and is vital to the experience of the riches of Christ and to Christ being glorified in the church, was replaced with “oneness with the ministry, the office etc., and any and every mention of previous times of blessing was dismissed and seen as competition to this new fangled invented oneness.

I understand that the LSM is putting out their version of history now. They will not say much at all about any blessing the churches and saints knew except to relate it to something of WL’s ministry. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have been advised to move forward and cover the history from a high level rather then get into too much detail regarding the many times of the rich experience of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. I agree with this and now will concentrate on my original plan to tell the story from the perspective of the leadership, their good points and positive contributions and their errors in truth and practice and failures in character and virtue.

But I am very concerned that what we learned of Christ not be lost in all the commotion of the leadership problems. Eph 4:20-21, But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: For several years our experience was just what is referred to in the above passage. We heard Him almost daily and in nearly every meeting. In my home where my family and several single brothers lived, oh how rich was our daily living. We all looked forward to the evening meals and sweet fellowship. My children loved the brothers and waited excitedly for their arrival each afternoon. The brothers were constantly bringing friends, classmates and co-workers over for meals and fellowship. Many young unbelievers found Christ at my table or in my living room. We all laughed and cried and rejoiced together and there was real love among us. Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days.

But back to Terry’s question. None of the flows was an attempt to recover former blessings but were the exercise of the point of view that all that the Lord wanted came from a single source and was contained in a new activity, “flow.”

A believer in Jesus Christ who is seeking to be a true disciple,

Hope, Don Rutledge

TLFisher · 11-06-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.”

The "ministry" repalcing "Christ and the Church" was a gradual process. For years there was a way for believers visiting a locality or newly saved ones to come in and meet in a general way without being forced-fed "the ministry". In recent years there has been no way for a general Christian to come in and meet in a general way without having "a taste for the ministry". In effect "the ministry" has replaced the vision of "Christ and the Church". I wouldn't dare say completely. There are many who still have this vision, but are too dominated by "the ministry" to give an adjusting word.
I would say there is a way for local church table meetings to recieve general Christians. Just take the Bible for the speaking portion of the meeting. Leave the ministry for the ministry meetings.

Terry

OBW · 11-07-2008, 11:33 AM

Hope: Are new expressions really that helpful? The LC has a lexicon full of new expressions and we know where that took us. What is “DC fellowship” and “AC fellowship?” I’m not really asking. It just stands out as pointless to mention something with no definition (at least that I could find in a few minutes of quick searching in this thread). Did I miss something somewhere?

Terry: Whether the emphasis was on “Christ and the church” or “the ministry,” either is actually problematic. While we do not as quickly see error in “Christ and the church” we were not emphasizing Christ and the assembling of believers. We were emphasizing Christ and a particular brand of assembled believers. We spoke of it in generic enough terms that we believed we were talking about everyone, but we were only talking about “Christ and the LC” or “Christ and the recovery.”

I would agree that the emphasis on the ministry in more recent times is a bigger deterrent to any outsiders, but that “church” was too exclusive. While I understand and even agree with most of YP’s stand on “universal church,” the term does poorly describe an aspect of the Christian faith in which we are all truly one even when we do not agree on everything. But that is not the kind of oneness that “Christ and the church” was trying to emphasize. It was meant to emphasize “Christ and our sect.” Yes, the trend was downward, but the start was not as pure as we often believed.

Last. I think that the teachings of the LC have been so ingrained in us that we too often miss what the scripture teaches us. The LC pointed us to a “church life.” Our worlds revolved around church. I’m not dissing church. I am quite committed to it, especially the fellowship I have been part of for the past 21 years. I hope each of you are as committed to some Christian fellowship, even if you do not practice in the same way I do, or agree on all minor points of doctrine with me.

But my life is a complete life. I am a tax specialist. I take dance lessons. I play the guitar. I attend a Christ-based 12-step program to help deal with anger issues. I go to church, often 2-3 times a week. There is a lot more. It is all infused by Christ. It is not all infused by church. I set my mind on the Spirit, not on the church.

My life is not church. Becoming more like Christ is not about better expressions. It isn’t even very much about the religious activities I do or don’t do. It is about living a life that proves I believe. (It is clear that I do not think I have arrived — for starters, I’m dealing with anger issues.)

I note that either Igzy or YP (can’t remember which) recently pointed out in another thread that the great commandment was actual 2 — love God and love others. With that background, I also note that knowing the truth that sets us free was predicated by holding to Jesus’ teachings. Holding to does not mean know them well and fight for them strongly. It means to live according to them. Do we believe the Bible? I don’t mean acknowledge that the words are correct. I mean do we live as if we believe it? Do we hold to the words through our actions?

Now, to make this post fit under the thread’s title, I can definitely say that I have marched off “the ground,” away from “the ministry” and out of “THE church” (the LC). I continue to search, but not for Christ. I found Christ before I found the LC. I have learned much more about Him since I left the LC. But I am coming to realize that my learning needs to affect my day doing tax work, and my evening playing my guitar and talking with my wife, or out talking dance lessons. It is not about bigger and better meetings. It is not about “the flow.” The only recovery it is about is recovering people to Christ and not to some sect.

Cal · 11-07-2008, 12:43 PM

My guess would be that AC fellowship means two-way fellowship (alternating current), while DC fellowship means one-way fellowship (direct current).

Hope · 11-07-2008, 05:10 PM

From OBW

Hope: Are new expressions really that helpful? The LC has a lexicon full of new expressions and we know where that took us. What is “DC fellowship” and “AC fellowship?” I’m not really asking. It just stands out as pointless to mention something with no definition (at least that I could find in a few minutes of quick searching in this thread). Did I miss something somewhere?

Hope's statement to which Mike was refering

We had two wonderful week-ends first in Westminster and then Arizona. The Lord led us to consider “Our Fellowship” based upon 1 John 1:1-7 and the portion in Romans chapter 1 verses one, eight and twelve: Rom 1:8, First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

A couple of new expressions came out which were very helpful. One was the difference between DC fellowship and AC fellowship. The other was some practical help on how to individually stay in the fellowship with the Lord when we have an “Elijah Moment” see 1 Kings 19.

Igzy's post

My guess would be that AC fellowship means two-way fellowship (alternating current), while DC fellowship means one-way fellowship (direct current).

Good job Igzy. Mike, I admit I just threw the expression out to see if there was any interest. Sorry about only getting you a little miffed. Our time was all about the wonderful fellowship that should be had among the believers. Too often the fellowship, though very real, is like DC current. It only flows one way. On the other hand the fellowship which Paul and John sought was definitely two way, "from faith to faith." While the DC fellowship is true and helpful it does not have the power of the mutual fellowship from faith to faith sort of like AC current. The expressions are not to be canonized but were just something spontaneous and illustrative of the interaction among the believers at those particular times and places.

As far as “Christ and the Church” please accept the use of the terms in a pure sense rather than an LC/LSM mantra. Most of the believers who were meeting in the local churches prior to 1973-4 did not understand the expression to mean Christ and the LC or Christ and the ministry or Christ and the recovery. Things did go that way. But from the beginning, for most of the saints, it was not so. One mistake I must state I see repeatedly is placing the template of later years in the LC over what was in the hearts and minds of most who were there in the beginning. But we became somewhat like the frog in the boiling water. The water is heated very slowly until the frog is boiled and dead. UG, what a coarse illustration but take it for what it is worth.

Hope, Don Rutledge, a believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple

TLFisher · 11-07-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Terry: Whether the emphasis was on “Christ and the church” or “the ministry,” either is actually problematic. While we do not as quickly see error in “Christ and the church” we were not emphasizing Christ and the assembling of believers. We were emphasizing Christ and a particular brand of assembled believers. We spoke of it in generic enough terms that we believed we were talking about everyone, but we were only talking about “Christ and the LC” or “Christ and the recovery.”

I would agree that the emphasis on the ministry in more recent times is a bigger deterrent to any outsiders, but that “church” was too exclusive. While I understand and even agree with most of YP’s stand on “universal church,” the term does poorly describe an aspect of the Christian faith in which we are all truly one even when we do not agree on everything. But that is not the kind of oneness that “Christ and the church” was trying to emphasize. It was meant to emphasize “Christ and our sect.” Yes, the trend was downward, but the start was not as pure as we often believed.

OBW, I read what you had to say. I acknowledge, I was quite young during the pre-training era of the recovery. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt, that the so-called recovery was far more inclusive towards Christianity than it is today. For instance what was the definition of Christ and the Church prior to 1973? Within the last 20 years, Christ and the Church is meant to mean those Christians meeting with assemblies under LSM fellowship. A healthy attitude to have is to say Christ and the Church being inclusive to all those born again who encompass the universal church.

Terry

Hope · 11-08-2008, 05:17 AM

Dear Believers in Christ Jesus,

Regarding the issue of too much emphasis on "church" that was in the LSM/LC.

Before the writings of WN were introduced in the USA, there was practically no awareness of the church as the Body of Christ and desire to maintain the unity of the Spirit. Billy Graham was very very unique in his ministry in that he sought to reach across denominational lines and unite the believers for the work of the gospel. But sadly after he left town the rivalries began anew. Thus to read about the Body of Christ and Paul declaring in Eph. chapter five that he spoke concerning "Christ and the Chruch" was revolutionary.

During our beginning, we would read Romans chapter 12 and be enthralled with the discovery of the functioning members in the one Body of Christ. There are pages I could write regarding our discovery of the great emphasis on the Body of Christ, the church, and it was not related to WL or the LSM. There was no LSM and WL had published little.

The term "church life" came from the book originally titled "Concerning our Mission" but titled by Karl Hammond as "The Normal Christian Church Life." That title was perfect for the time. 98.4% of believers saw the church as a place to attend services and through which to offer tithes and offerings. Your went to Sunday services and then you were on your own and your real life began for the week. Every man for himself, you were on your own, rugged individualism.
Initially there was a great anointing on the subject of the church. In some gatherings we sat three inches above our chairs as the Lord opened the scriptures regarding “I will build My Church.”
With the coming history, I will not dwell on what it was like at ground level before 1973-1974 due to the urgency to complete the overview of our history. But I am now planning to write a second book on the order of “A book of Remembrances” Mal 3:16-17, Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name.

Hope, Don Rutledge, a believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple

Indiana · 11-10-2008, 01:35 AM

I have quoted Hope in the 2 paragraphs below. They are striking to me. Later Hope, you wrote about a solution to your quandary; that is, you have decided to write a Book of Remembrance. This, I expect to be exceedingly sweet and also honorable to the Lord and to many saints, including certain leaders. Your second paragraph below, I believe, is a foretaste of such a record.

Don shares,

"I understand that the LSM is putting out their version of history now. They will not say much at all about any blessing the churches and saints knew except to relate it to something of WL’s ministry. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have been advised to move forward and cover the history from a high level rather then get into too much detail regarding the many times of the rich experience of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. I agree with this and now will concentrate on my original plan to tell the story from the perspective of the leadership, their good points and positive contributions and their errors in truth and practice and failures in character and virtue.

"But I am very concerned that what we learned of Christ not be lost in all the commotion of the leadership problems. Eph 4:20-21, But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: For several years our experience was just what is referred to in the above passage. We heard Him almost daily and in nearly every meeting. In my home where my family and several single brothers lived, oh how rich was our daily living. We all looked forward to the evening meals and sweet fellowship. My children loved the brothers and waited excitedly for their arrival each afternoon. The brothers were constantly bringing friends, classmates and co-workers over for meals and fellowship. Many young unbelievers found Christ at my table or in my living room. We all laughed and cried and rejoiced together and there was real love among us. Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days."

Oregon · 11-10-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Terry,

I would rather say that all the flows came from a wrong understanding of God’s purpose and administration. As long as WL stayed in the background and fulfilled his role of a teacher who could assist other gifted persons in perfecting the saints that they, the saints, would do the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, the Lord could flow according to His plan and way. When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.”

Hope, Don Rutledge

I just wanted to emphasize the importance of this statement. This tread of discussion is excellent. By the way Ohio.......I started to respond to your request to hear more concerning those early years. I'm not ignoring you.......just have been very busy. I certainly would like to and will respond. Thanks to all who are sharing and participating in this discussion.

Indiana · 11-12-2008, 01:38 AM

I had shared previously,

I have quoted Hope in the 2 paragraphs below. They are striking to me. Later Hope, you wrote about a solution to your quandary; that is, you have decided to write a Book of Remembrance. This, I expect to be exceedingly sweet and also honorable to the Lord and to many saints, including certain leaders. Your second paragraph below, I believe, is a foretaste of such a record.

Don shares, (in the second paragraph),

"But I am very concerned that what we learned of Christ not be lost in all the commotion of the leadership problems. Eph 4:20-21, But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: For several years our experience was just what is referred to in the above passage. We heard Him almost daily and in nearly every meeting. In my home where my family and several single brothers lived, oh how rich was our daily living. We all looked forward to the evening meals and sweet fellowship. My children loved the brothers and waited excitedly for their arrival each afternoon. The brothers were constantly bringing friends, classmates and co-workers over for meals and fellowship. Many young unbelievers found Christ at my table or in my living room. We all laughed and cried and rejoiced together and there was real love among us. Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days."

Yes, Don, maybe you should write the fullest account possible. May our LSM brothers be doing the same, as they consider their writing of local church history and the reality of the one accord in the church life pre-Man and a Ministry, as indicated below.

Originally Posted by Hope

Terry,

I would rather say that all the flows came from a wrong understanding of God’s purpose and administration. As long as WL stayed in the background and fulfilled his role of a teacher who could assist other gifted persons in perfecting the saints that they, the saints, would do the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, the Lord could flow according to His plan and way.

When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.”

Hope, Don Rutledge

TLFisher · 11-13-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days."

When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.”

Hope, an account of what pre-training church life was like would give a picture. Stories I've heard from various brothers is brothers and sisters would arrive an hour or more before the meeting started. As a high schooler in the mid-eighties, it was the norm for brothers and sisters to gather a good 30 minutes before the meeting started. During the 1990's, rushing to the meetings before the meeting was due to start was a thing of the past. Instead brothers and sisters would start showing up a good 5-10 minutes before the meeting was due to start. This is one way to show how the joy waned over the years.
Another aspect of pre-training versus post-training church life is to show the growth. In this era I view the churches suffering from attrition. Unable to attract new ones apart from those who have an appetite for the ministry and unable to keep the ones already meeting in the local churches. Partly due to the focus on the ministry and the college work which creates a struggle for those who are more for Christ than the ministry and those whose demographics are well past the college age saints.
Another point to bring up is were the pre-training era issue far more in "life" while the post-training era issued in "knowledge"? I say this becuase the switch to focus on the ministry make some meeting in the local churches more exclusive in behavior and superior in attitude as to say "look what this ministry has". The centering of a ministry may have caused many to lose their focus. To lose generality, receptiveness, and inclusiveness which we find in Jesus Christ.

Terry

09-02-2008, 12:14 AM	#1
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 707	Moniker & a March off the Ground I would like to share a few things with you in the link below. www.twoturmoils.com/Indiana3.pdf Last edited by Indiana; 09-02-2008 at 12:44 AM.

10-03-2008, 01:40 PM	#2
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,363	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground I'm trying to play catch up here.....Indy..Thanks for sharing your journey in Christ while in Seattle, Indianapolis and Chicago. I came into 'the church' in 1975...and for me the downfall of the LC came about in 1978/79. I never struggled leading someone to Christ but I sure struggled in bringing them to 'the church'. I know the 'ground of oneness' was a big thing for everyone. I didn't have much trouble with that teaching per sae because I was already 'grounded' in the LC. I had saints I fellowshipped with and I was over all comfy with the church life in San Diego. But bringing people into the LC..well. That was another story. I didn't know why I struggled with it as I was 'happy' there. In looking back, I think, I was troubled with the doctrine of the 'ground of oneness'. If there had never been such a teaching..and our 'ground of oneness' was our LORD Jesus CHRIST, everything would have fallen into place I believe. Still, over all were my years in the LC in San Diego were good years for me...even though I was quite in the 'fire' being refined quite a bit ...to God be the Glory. Now I have a couple of questions for you regarding your comments: The word of God poured into me in those days as I spent between 7-9 times a day with the Lord in the Word and writings Regarding 'writings', whose writings did you read? Were you 'allowed' to read writings other than Nee's and Lee's..and those they allowed you to read..that is in the LC bookstores? When you or any other saint testified about someone's writings, were they ever anyone else's writing other than Nee, Lee or those 'blessed' by Lee? For example, did anyone ever get up at a meeting..or in small fellowship say something like 'WOW...I just read Smith Wigglesworth biography !' I bring it up because, Nee and Lee's writings and those writings 'blessed' by Lee himself, is what the saints fellowshipped about coupled with their thoughts/experiences from the Word of God...which is known as the BIBLE. That's all 'fine' until we knew by unspoken language we did not read anyone's works unless it was sanctioned by the Lee ministry. The next observation I made is this: The LINGO...the LC lingo!! Here is an example from your testimony: *Christ as our only center and enjoyment* and people could join our fellowship and have *the sense within them* that they were home. And, they were home as believers in Christ on a proper ground of oneness. I listen to believers who were never in the LC speak...and ya know, they never use the terminology we used in the LC. There is nothing particularly wrong with the lingo itself..however it sure rings of 'exclusiveness'. We just weren't like 'Christianity'...and we wanted to make sure we stood out. IF that was the motive..& I think it was..it was wrong of us...I blame all of us because we blindly allowed ourselves to speak like the 'leading ones'. May the Lord Jesus Christ become Numero UNO again in our fellowship one with another. It's time if you ask me, we crush the devil's head & all of his cronies with the Word of God as the Sword of our spirit and with our love for the brethren & the unbelievers. When we love our God with all of our hearts, souls, minds, body and of course our spirit...and we love our neighbors as we love ourselves..which includes all the brethren and the unbelievers, surely the devil has to shut up once and for all as we execute his judgment alongside our KING JESUS! __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

10-29-2008, 11:23 PM	#3
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 707	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground Count, I see that you asked me questions a while back, Oct 3 - You had asked me, -"Regarding 'writings', whose writings did you read? Were you 'allowed' to read writings other than Nee's and Lee's..and those they allowed you to read..that is in the LC bookstores?" At that time, as has been shared, Witness Lee was in the background of the church, not the foreground. Although I was in the church only a year and a half, and fresh out of the world, I got in on the last couple years of a revival. The atmosphere was electric. In my second month in the church we piled into cars (Feb 1971) and headed for San Francisco from Seattle, driving 15 hours, and through the night till daybreak and in time for the first meeting of a conference with Brother Lee. Everyone across the country looked forward to conferences with him (also conf. with Ingalls, Barber, Mallon). On the way back to Seattle, at a rest stop a brother exhorted that we spend time with the Lord, individually. We did so and got into the word of God and prayer on our own. This was an exceedingly strong practice that I was introduced to upon coming into the church in Seattle, as the saints were well-grounded in the word of God and in the morning watch and in spending time with the Lord. They knew that “an eating church was a functioning church”. The ministry was secondary, though a huge help; but the Bible was primary. Praying the word of God into us was our essential practice that resulted in an overflow of the saints’ giving their testimonies in the meetings of their experience of Christ. “Eating Christ for the building up of the church” was a recurring theme in my first three years in the church – Jan 1971 - 1974. The ministry of Witness Lee had its proper place, and so did the word of God. In the bookroom were precious books by Nee and Lee, but there were no announcements “every week” of new books coming out and there was no campaigning to follow Lee and his ministry. On the cover of some of Lee’s writings were merely his initials – W. L. The few books that were available had plain covers, but those plain covers and the content of the books, were so attractive to me. I gained so much from the ministry of Witness Lee. In answer to your question, we not only felt free to read other books, we were encouraged to read them. Andrew Murray, George Mueller, Hannah-Whitehall Smith, Suzannah Wesley (John Wesley’s wife, she had writings on raising children that were taken very much to heart by Seattle sisters, as she was an amazing woman of God.). Madame Guyon’s writings were treasured the most by Seattle sisters, and also by many brothers. WL and Nee had spoken highly of her and her spiritual experience. Jessie Penn-Lewis was prized reading in the church in Seattle. The book on intercessory prayer by Rees Howell was read by many saints. Biographies and the Brethren writings were widely read, such as Panton’s Earth’s Earliest Ages. We were free to read and to learn, and this freedom continued well into the eighties. And, yes, a brother or sister could freely share in the meetings about their appreciation of the fellowship in books they were reading outside of Nee and Lee. Christ was really the center. He was also the attraction. It didn’t matter what we were doing that might have seemed different or peculiar to a newcomer; the Attraction of Christ often outweighed the concern new ones may have had. Troubles come when our Center has competition from a second center, as indicated in what John Myer of Columbus has actually been dealing with from his beginnings in the church life in 1984. He shared in his latest chapter about a couple he and his wife were caring for who came to their meeting: – “Immediately after the meeting, the couple disappeared but not before paying a quick visit to the church library to confirm their other suspicion—that we were a Witness Lee church. I had fed them the standing-on-the-shoulders-of-those-who-went-before-us apologetic to prove our inclusiveness, but rows and rows of books bearing one name and one publishing house uniformly reinforced the opposite idea”. – end quote I understand the idea of Brother Lee having stood on the shoulders of others. But he did not remain in the background in the churches. He was brought forward. When he, his ministry, and the office became inordinately lifted up in the churches, another center was created and Witness Lee came to the foreground in the local churches. Magnetism of Earlier Era Another quote by John in his latest chapter: “After years…I began to grudgingly admit that something was broken. Apparently the Local Church meetings that had exerted such magnetism toward seekers in an earlier era had quietly slipped into extinction.” That extinction began in 1974 with the advent of trainings under brother Witness Lee (See Don Rutledge history or Deviating from the Path.) As the New Center began to emerge and come to the foreground, the magnetism was sliding away and it has never returned. Obsessive attention has been given to the second center bringing in confusion, chaos, and division in the local churches – and the testimony, impact and Attraction that once had its day in the local churches has become diluted, mixed, and compromised. Thus the need to study local church history in a serious manner to trace the diversion from Christ alone. Local Church Terminologies CMW, You also mentioned your concern about using terms found only in the local church, such as the words I used about Christ being “our only center and enjoyment and people had the sense within them that they were home” in the church. But language is a part of a culture and if the words of local church language have resonated in my heart and in my spirit it would follow that I will want to use some of that language with those of that culture, and sometimes with those outside the culture. There really is no rule about this, but to follow “the sense within”. Yet, as a kind of “rule” the more normal our language the better with ones inside or outside the culture. Your concern is understood by many, I’m sure, and by me. But I would hope that the LC use of the language is not so that the local churches would “stand out” from other Christians due to an impure kind of motivation among the leadership or the saints. I think you indicated that you felt that this was the case, that they are trying to stand out. I think rather that WL strove for the highest utterances and labored much on his choice of words to use, for the sake of the highest communication and the most meaningful expression. For this, I am thankful and will always be very appreciative. Last edited by Indiana; 10-30-2008 at 12:43 AM.

10-30-2008, 06:48 AM	#4
Oregon Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground Thank you for sharing concerning the early years Indiana. It brought back pleasant memories of the glorious church life. I remember well those turning years of 74 to 75 when "the ministry" started to become the real center. That was the beginning of the downward slide. There was such a freshness in those early days which was gone form 1975 and on. CMW......don't take this as a personal critisism but the sponateous moving of the Spirit among us was gone before you even arrived. I'm not discounting your personal experience but anyone who was not in the church life from 1974 and ealier will never know what a newness of Spirit there was among us. The organization that came in over time quenched the moving of God's Spirit among us. It reminds me of the account in Ezekiel when the glory of God slowly departed from God's house....the temple. Last edited by Oregon; 10-30-2008 at 06:58 AM.

11-02-2008, 06:36 AM	#7
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground Great Thread, Dear Brothers and Sisters, We had two wonderful week-ends first in Westminster and then Arizona. The Lord led us to consider “Our Fellowship” based upon 1 John 1:1-7 and the portion in Romans chapter 1 verses one, eight and twelve: Rom 1:8, First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith." A couple of new expressions came out which were very helpful. One was the difference between DC fellowship and AC fellowship. The other was some practical help on how to individually stay in the fellowship with the Lord when we have an “Elijah Moment” see 1 Kings 19. I believe the forum is moving in a very good direction. I have been very occupied with family, business and church over the last many weeks and am catching up on the forum posts. Since last spring, I felt to lay aside my writing on the history and consider how to address the years after 1973. I have noticed the effort by many to understand our history by constructs such as early Lee, early Nee and later Lee and later Lee etc. I endorse strongly the view that there were definitely different eras in the history of the local churches. I desire to testify to what I have seen and heard myself directly. Thus, my early years were very different from the last few years. I now believe I must give much more detail to the wonderful times we enjoyed with Christ and His precious members. To understand the measure of the fall of the local churches and Brother Lee’s work, we must accurately describe the wonderful positive effects it had early on. At the same time, it is imperative to discover the seeds of the later years and learn from it. To see and understand this dichotomy has been a great help to me and others in recovering from the damage done to the faith and conscience of many. I also believe I need to give much more detail concerning the various personalities that had a strong influence in shaping the history. The story of the local churches is also the story of John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So, Max Rapoport, Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, James Barber, Titus Chu, Bill Freeman and several others such as Phillip Lee, Paul Hon, Andrew Yu, Patsy Freeman and others. To say all everywhere at all times were the same bunch of bad apples is way way off. When I have read posts about “the Evil Texas churches” the only posters were those who were in Houston and OK City. Ray Graver was the count Richelieu of the local churches and James Barber was known everywhere as “legal James”, an oppressor of the saints. I did notice that the only detractor who claimed to have been in Dallas was “Processed” who when her posts are put together was around 1-6 years of age while I may have been in Dallas and could not have experienced the excellent times we had there during the first 12 years. She also did not know who Don Looper was. I wonder how her father could have been an elder there in Dallas. I can only come up with one possibility and he was only there when this person was a very small child if it is he. I say this to warn you all that my history will tell the story of the good things of the Lord that we experiences which before 1974 was the essence and content of our history. I am considering going back to add in much detail to the early years. (Please feel free to advise.) Finally, I strongly agree that we should discuss teachings and practices which led to the terrible outcomes we have seen. But it is not only the teachings that need to be considered but also the personalities that played an equally important role in our fall from grace. A believer in Christ Jesus seeking to be a true disciple, Hope, Don Rutledge

11-03-2008, 06:06 PM	#9
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground Terry, I would rather say that all the flows came from a wrong understanding of God’s purpose and administration. As long as WL stayed in the background and fulfilled his role of a teacher who could assist other gifted persons in perfecting the saints that they, the saints, would do the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, the Lord could flow according to His plan and way. When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.” The idea of following the flow was a development under the promotion of brothers such as James Barber, Max Rapoport, Benson Phillips and Ray Graver. They believed that the various local churches were parts of a network with the anointed minister of the age as the spiritual and deputy authority or today’s Paul. Each of these promoters desired to be an instrument to carry out what God was doing and that was not the building of the local churches directly but was realized in some proposal coming from the center. Those who promoted “the flow principle” actually despised the blessings the various churches had known and declared repeatedly that the old was holding back the implementation of the latest flow. The keeping of the “Oneness of the Spirit”, which was and is vital to the experience of the riches of Christ and to Christ being glorified in the church, was replaced with “oneness with the ministry, the office etc., and any and every mention of previous times of blessing was dismissed and seen as competition to this new fangled invented oneness. I understand that the LSM is putting out their version of history now. They will not say much at all about any blessing the churches and saints knew except to relate it to something of WL’s ministry. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have been advised to move forward and cover the history from a high level rather then get into too much detail regarding the many times of the rich experience of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. I agree with this and now will concentrate on my original plan to tell the story from the perspective of the leadership, their good points and positive contributions and their errors in truth and practice and failures in character and virtue. But I am very concerned that what we learned of Christ not be lost in all the commotion of the leadership problems. Eph 4:20-21, But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: For several years our experience was just what is referred to in the above passage. We heard Him almost daily and in nearly every meeting. In my home where my family and several single brothers lived, oh how rich was our daily living. We all looked forward to the evening meals and sweet fellowship. My children loved the brothers and waited excitedly for their arrival each afternoon. The brothers were constantly bringing friends, classmates and co-workers over for meals and fellowship. Many young unbelievers found Christ at my table or in my living room. We all laughed and cried and rejoiced together and there was real love among us. Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days. But back to Terry’s question. None of the flows was an attempt to recover former blessings but were the exercise of the point of view that all that the Lord wanted came from a single source and was contained in a new activity, “flow.” A believer in Jesus Christ who is seeking to be a true disciple, Hope, Don Rutledge

11-07-2008, 11:33 AM	#11
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground Hope: Are new expressions really that helpful? The LC has a lexicon full of new expressions and we know where that took us. What is “DC fellowship” and “AC fellowship?” I’m not really asking. It just stands out as pointless to mention something with no definition (at least that I could find in a few minutes of quick searching in this thread). Did I miss something somewhere? Terry: Whether the emphasis was on “Christ and the church” or “the ministry,” either is actually problematic. While we do not as quickly see error in “Christ and the church” we were not emphasizing Christ and the assembling of believers. We were emphasizing Christ and a particular brand of assembled believers. We spoke of it in generic enough terms that we believed we were talking about everyone, but we were only talking about “Christ and the LC” or “Christ and the recovery.” I would agree that the emphasis on the ministry in more recent times is a bigger deterrent to any outsiders, but that “church” was too exclusive. While I understand and even agree with most of YP’s stand on “universal church,” the term does poorly describe an aspect of the Christian faith in which we are all truly one even when we do not agree on everything. But that is not the kind of oneness that “Christ and the church” was trying to emphasize. It was meant to emphasize “Christ and our sect.” Yes, the trend was downward, but the start was not as pure as we often believed. Last. I think that the teachings of the LC have been so ingrained in us that we too often miss what the scripture teaches us. The LC pointed us to a “church life.” Our worlds revolved around church. I’m not dissing church. I am quite committed to it, especially the fellowship I have been part of for the past 21 years. I hope each of you are as committed to some Christian fellowship, even if you do not practice in the same way I do, or agree on all minor points of doctrine with me. But my life is a complete life. I am a tax specialist. I take dance lessons. I play the guitar. I attend a Christ-based 12-step program to help deal with anger issues. I go to church, often 2-3 times a week. There is a lot more. It is all infused by Christ. It is not all infused by church. I set my mind on the Spirit, not on the church. My life is not church. Becoming more like Christ is not about better expressions. It isn’t even very much about the religious activities I do or don’t do. It is about living a life that proves I believe. (It is clear that I do not think I have arrived — for starters, I’m dealing with anger issues.) I note that either Igzy or YP (can’t remember which) recently pointed out in another thread that the great commandment was actual 2 — love God and love others. With that background, I also note that knowing the truth that sets us free was predicated by holding to Jesus’ teachings. Holding to does not mean know them well and fight for them strongly. It means to live according to them. Do we believe the Bible? I don’t mean acknowledge that the words are correct. I mean do we live as if we believe it? Do we hold to the words through our actions? Now, to make this post fit under the thread’s title, I can definitely say that I have marched off “the ground,” away from “the ministry” and out of “THE church” (the LC). I continue to search, but not for Christ. I found Christ before I found the LC. I have learned much more about Him since I left the LC. But I am coming to realize that my learning needs to affect my day doing tax work, and my evening playing my guitar and talking with my wife, or out talking dance lessons. It is not about bigger and better meetings. It is not about “the flow.” The only recovery it is about is recovering people to Christ and not to some sect. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

11-07-2008, 12:43 PM	#12
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground My guess would be that AC fellowship means two-way fellowship (alternating current), while DC fellowship means one-way fellowship (direct current).

11-07-2008, 05:10 PM	#13
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground From OBW Hope: Are new expressions really that helpful? The LC has a lexicon full of new expressions and we know where that took us. What is “DC fellowship” and “AC fellowship?” I’m not really asking. It just stands out as pointless to mention something with no definition (at least that I could find in a few minutes of quick searching in this thread). Did I miss something somewhere? Hope's statement to which Mike was refering We had two wonderful week-ends first in Westminster and then Arizona. The Lord led us to consider “Our Fellowship” based upon 1 John 1:1-7 and the portion in Romans chapter 1 verses one, eight and twelve: Rom 1:8, First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith." A couple of new expressions came out which were very helpful. One was the difference between DC fellowship and AC fellowship. The other was some practical help on how to individually stay in the fellowship with the Lord when we have an “Elijah Moment” see 1 Kings 19. Igzy's post My guess would be that AC fellowship means two-way fellowship (alternating current), while DC fellowship means one-way fellowship (direct current). Good job Igzy. Mike, I admit I just threw the expression out to see if there was any interest. Sorry about only getting you a little miffed. Our time was all about the wonderful fellowship that should be had among the believers. Too often the fellowship, though very real, is like DC current. It only flows one way. On the other hand the fellowship which Paul and John sought was definitely two way, "from faith to faith." While the DC fellowship is true and helpful it does not have the power of the mutual fellowship from faith to faith sort of like AC current. The expressions are not to be canonized but were just something spontaneous and illustrative of the interaction among the believers at those particular times and places. As far as “Christ and the Church” please accept the use of the terms in a pure sense rather than an LC/LSM mantra. Most of the believers who were meeting in the local churches prior to 1973-4 did not understand the expression to mean Christ and the LC or Christ and the ministry or Christ and the recovery. Things did go that way. But from the beginning, for most of the saints, it was not so. One mistake I must state I see repeatedly is placing the template of later years in the LC over what was in the hearts and minds of most who were there in the beginning. But we became somewhat like the frog in the boiling water. The water is heated very slowly until the frog is boiled and dead. UG, what a coarse illustration but take it for what it is worth. Hope, Don Rutledge, a believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple

11-08-2008, 05:17 AM	#15
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: Moniker & a March off the Ground Dear Believers in Christ Jesus, Regarding the issue of too much emphasis on "church" that was in the LSM/LC. Before the writings of WN were introduced in the USA, there was practically no awareness of the church as the Body of Christ and desire to maintain the unity of the Spirit. Billy Graham was very very unique in his ministry in that he sought to reach across denominational lines and unite the believers for the work of the gospel. But sadly after he left town the rivalries began anew. Thus to read about the Body of Christ and Paul declaring in Eph. chapter five that he spoke concerning "Christ and the Chruch" was revolutionary. During our beginning, we would read Romans chapter 12 and be enthralled with the discovery of the functioning members in the one Body of Christ. There are pages I could write regarding our discovery of the great emphasis on the Body of Christ, the church, and it was not related to WL or the LSM. There was no LSM and WL had published little. The term "church life" came from the book originally titled "Concerning our Mission" but titled by Karl Hammond as "The Normal Christian Church Life." That title was perfect for the time. 98.4% of believers saw the church as a place to attend services and through which to offer tithes and offerings. Your went to Sunday services and then you were on your own and your real life began for the week. Every man for himself, you were on your own, rugged individualism. Initially there was a great anointing on the subject of the church. In some gatherings we sat three inches above our chairs as the Lord opened the scriptures regarding “I will build My Church.” With the coming history, I will not dwell on what it was like at ground level before 1973-1974 due to the urgency to complete the overview of our history. But I am now planning to write a second book on the order of “A book of Remembrances” Mal 3:16-17, Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. Hope, Don Rutledge, a believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple

11-10-2008, 01:35 AM	#16
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 707	Re: From Quandary to a Book of Remembrance I have quoted Hope in the 2 paragraphs below. They are striking to me. Later Hope, you wrote about a solution to your quandary; that is, you have decided to write a Book of Remembrance. This, I expect to be exceedingly sweet and also honorable to the Lord and to many saints, including certain leaders. Your second paragraph below, I believe, is a foretaste of such a record. Don shares, "I understand that the LSM is putting out their version of history now. They will not say much at all about any blessing the churches and saints knew except to relate it to something of WL’s ministry. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have been advised to move forward and cover the history from a high level rather then get into too much detail regarding the many times of the rich experience of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. I agree with this and now will concentrate on my original plan to tell the story from the perspective of the leadership, their good points and positive contributions and their errors in truth and practice and failures in character and virtue. "But I am very concerned that what we learned of Christ not be lost in all the commotion of the leadership problems. Eph 4:20-21, But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: For several years our experience was just what is referred to in the above passage. We heard Him almost daily and in nearly every meeting. In my home where my family and several single brothers lived, oh how rich was our daily living. We all looked forward to the evening meals and sweet fellowship. My children loved the brothers and waited excitedly for their arrival each afternoon. The brothers were constantly bringing friends, classmates and co-workers over for meals and fellowship. Many young unbelievers found Christ at my table or in my living room. We all laughed and cried and rejoiced together and there was real love among us. Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days." Last edited by Indiana; 11-10-2008 at 03:21 AM.

11-12-2008, 01:38 AM	#18
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 707	Re: A picture of the church life and one accord I had shared previously, I have quoted Hope in the 2 paragraphs below. They are striking to me. Later Hope, you wrote about a solution to your quandary; that is, you have decided to write a Book of Remembrance. This, I expect to be exceedingly sweet and also honorable to the Lord and to many saints, including certain leaders. Your second paragraph below, I believe, is a foretaste of such a record. Don shares, (in the second paragraph), "But I am very concerned that what we learned of Christ not be lost in all the commotion of the leadership problems. Eph 4:20-21, But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: For several years our experience was just what is referred to in the above passage. We heard Him almost daily and in nearly every meeting. In my home where my family and several single brothers lived, oh how rich was our daily living. We all looked forward to the evening meals and sweet fellowship. My children loved the brothers and waited excitedly for their arrival each afternoon. The brothers were constantly bringing friends, classmates and co-workers over for meals and fellowship. Many young unbelievers found Christ at my table or in my living room. We all laughed and cried and rejoiced together and there was real love among us. Perhaps I should add an appendix after the main account is finished regarding what the church life was like in pre LSM days." Yes, Don, maybe you should write the fullest account possible. May our LSM brothers be doing the same, as they consider their writing of local church history and the reality of the one accord in the church life pre-Man and a Ministry, as indicated below. Originally Posted by Hope Terry, I would rather say that all the flows came from a wrong understanding of God’s purpose and administration. As long as WL stayed in the background and fulfilled his role of a teacher who could assist other gifted persons in perfecting the saints that they, the saints, would do the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, the Lord could flow according to His plan and way. When WL decided to put out his exposition of the Bible and use ten day trainings to provide an audience the blessings began to wane and eventually “the Ministry” completely replaced the vision of “Christ and the Church.” Hope, Don Rutledge Last edited by Indiana; 11-12-2008 at 12:39 PM.