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Spiritual Abuse Titles Spiritual abuse is the mistreatment of a person who is in need of help, support or greater spiritual empowerment, with the result of weakening, undermining or decreasing that person's spiritual empowerment.

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Old 01-25-2018, 07:17 AM   #1
Nell
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Default Whistleblower

Sexual abuse is a crime. Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Ask Penn State University, ask Jerry Sandusky. Ask Harvey Weinstein. Watch the news.

Sexual abuse is a police matter and should be reported. It's called blowing the whistle, saying NO MORE. There is NO spiritual justification for sexual abuse.

While I have not been a victim of sexual abuse, I have been a "whistleblower" in the workplace. My coworkers and I were exposed to criminal behavior in a government agency on the part of our direct supervisor. We contacted the FBI because we did not trust the Inspector General's office for that agency. The FBI contacted the US Secret Service who, in turn, brought in the IG that we didn't trust. This created "oversight" of the entire process. We reported the crime, because it is also a crime to have knowledge of, but not report criminal behavior to the authorities.

If you choose to become a whistleblower in any environment, bring in an outside advocate. (We brought in the FBI.) If you choose to report sexual abuse in the Local Church, don't report it internally. Because of the intensely closed Local Church culture, you don't know who you can trust. Get a lawyer, then go to the police.

This was not easy for my coworkers and I. There was a price. The stress was enormous. I eventually was terribly humiliated when I was unjustly fired from my job. All of my coworkers who reported the crime lost their jobs. Regardless, the Lord was with me and I had some amazing experiences of his love and care for me. I told the truth and was greatly blessed for doing so. Still, it wasn't easy. I told my story on a TV interview, as did another of my coworkers. But we all paid a high price. I could never again apply for a job and check the box "Have you ever been fired from a job?" with a "NO." But there was also a price for the criminals in my office. One of my coworkers, under direction of the Secret Service, "wore a wire" to gather evidence. The criminal actually tried to recruit my coworker on this wire tap, to join their criminal activity.

There was a "raid" on my office. The criminals were removed. Their homes were searched. They confessed to their crime and lost their jobs. They can never again work for a government agency. They bargained for "deferred adjudication" and avoided going to prison and a criminal felony record.

I'm telling you this to say that I'm not just preaching about reporting a crime with no experience. I'm a whistleblower myself. Federal laws were changed after my coworkers and I became whistleblowers. We actually gained the direct support of a member of the U.S. Senate.

You will notice that I keep saying "my coworkers and I." We did what we did together. I don't think I could have done this alone. The Local Church is not above the law. In this #METOO climate, when you report your assault to the police, it will not be swept under the massive Local Church rug.

I would not tell anyone what to do, but I would like to encourage those who were abused in the Local Churches to consider their options today. Think about the others who come after you. Pray about it. If you would like to talk further, PM me and we could perhaps even discuss further on the "sisters only" forum.

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

Blessings to you all--

Nell

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Old 01-25-2018, 07:52 AM   #2
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Default Re: Whistleblower

Thanks for sharing this Nell.

"Blessed are those who have suffered for righteousness sake ..."
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Old 01-26-2018, 07:30 AM   #3
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Thanks for sharing this Nell.

"Blessed are those who have suffered for righteousness sake ..."
Ohio, you're welcome.

I will say that my suffering during my ordeal was temporary. I recovered, found a new and better job and I rarely think of this experience. What I can take away from the experience is that God loves me and cares for me like none other. Also, it's important to tell the truth.

From what I can see, those who experienced sexual abuse in the Local Church (or any other place) as young women cannot yet say "I recovered." Sexual abuse and/or assault happens to your body. It happens to your soul. It takes something away that can never be regained. I pray for these young women who have posted their experiences and commend them for their bravery.

As to the criminals who perpetrated these crimes against young women, their sisters in Christ perhaps, I do not have the assurance that these Local Church men are in fact brothers. I pose this question because, as the scriptures say, "by their fruit you shall know them."

This criminal behavior, sexual sin, is the fruit of the ministry of Witness Lee. Lee's own son was a sexual predator. WL knew this and did nothing about it. Well...except banish those who exposed Phillip's sinful behavior--in the Living Stream office no less.

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Old 01-26-2018, 04:14 PM   #4
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Sexual abuse is a crime. Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Ask Penn State University, ask Jerry Sandusky. Ask Harvey Weinstein. Watch the news.

Sexual abuse is a police matter and should be reported.
Bless you Nell for bringing up this matter.

And you are right, sexual abuse should be reported.

Does it happen in the local church? Yes. Even the founder of the local church, Watchman Nee (Ni Tuosheng), admitted to sexual abuse, and rape of sisters. He spent 20 years in prison for that, and illegal business crimes.

Seems power and sexual abuse run together.

Anyway, it can happen anywhere, and by those no one would ever expect.

And it should be reported, no matter of position and power.

Thanks again Nell.
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Old 01-27-2018, 04:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Whistleblower: History of Sexual Abuse in the Local Church

History of Sexual Abuse in the Local Church

This is the earliest instance of sexual immorality, known to me, in the Local Church. Watchman Nee's immorality was not made public until the last few years. Witness Lee's son, Philip was a predator and was reported by the sister in "the office" to John Ingalls as described below. The events that followed resulted in a disaster in the Church in Anaheim which included the excommunication of Philip Lee. In another instance, a brother walked in on Philip and a sister in "the office." The brother was devastated and reported what he saw to Max Rapoport.

In the cases I will bring to the forefront, Witness Lee's solution was a coverup. We can also surmise that the situation continues today because of Lee's disastrous failures.

I have heard stories about sexual immorality in the Local Churches for years. Some of you have probably heard stories as well.

Below are excerpts from Speaking the Truth in Love by John Ingalls which is posted on this forum here where the elders attempted to reason with Lee on the seriousness of his son's behavior and the need to deal with his son. I also have a copy of this story which was reported in the Los Angeles Times.

John Ingalls (deceased) and Godfred Otuteye were elders in the Church in Anaheim at the time.

A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
September 1987


On the following Tuesday, Sept. 29th, Godfred (Otuteye – O two tay) left for a business trip to Europe. On the next day, Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her. I had been acquainted with this sister for many years and knew her to be faithful, upright, and trustworthy; therefore, I took her word very seriously. I was amazed that she could put up with such conduct for so long. She stated that she tolerated it only for the sake of Brother Lee and his ministry. She said that she had no other recourse but to resign. I confirmed her intention.

That conversation utterly shocked me. I deeply felt that something must be done to acquaint Brother Lee with the situation and to let him know that we would not tolerate it. I obtained Godfred’s telephone number in Europe and called him a soon as the difference in time zones permitted, telling him the things that had come to my ears. Godfred listened and said that he already knew it. I was amazed. That night I considered what could be done. That we had to go to Brother Lee I was certain.
...

PART TWO
ANOTHER SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
December 19,1987


In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze.

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery! We felt that Benson Phillips and Ray Graver, who were deeply involved in the LSM operation, must surely know something of these matters. Therefore, we resolved to confer with them about this when we got to Irving.


...

At this time Witness Lee could have put a leash on his son Philip but he did not.

More to come.

Nell

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Old 01-28-2018, 12:05 PM   #6
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Good post and quotes Nell.

I'm nervous to even bring this up.

Don Hardy was very close with Witness Lee and his family. In a long list of emails he tells goings-on that would pop your eyeballs out, of all kinds on sexual goings-on at the top level of the LC.

Years ago I got a copy of them and wanted to share them with exLCers I'm still friends with. So I put them up on my domain, thinking to send the specific link to my friends, and not the whole WWW.

But that darn Google Spider found the page, so that they showed up if anyone searched for Don Hardy. And lo and behold brother Hardy found them. I was told I had to take them down.

And I did right away. Why? Because of fear of lawsuits by the Lee corporate system, and legal department, aka Defense and Confirmation Project, Inc - DCP.

The practice of suing their critics works to shut down the ugly truth of what really goes on at the top levels of the LC.

The practice of covering up sexual abuse, like what we see with the pedophile priest in the RCC, to protect the image and reputation of the institution, happens also in the local church.

So sister Nell, the information you shared from Speaking the Truth in Love, by John Ingalls, who was also close with the top inner circle, has been covered up in the local church, just as Don Hardy's revelations of the inner goings-on is covered up. And, btw, Lily Hsu's book, "My Unforgettable Memories - Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church," that reveals the sexual infractions by Nee, is also hidden from those in the local church.

Maybe that's because they know, "the truth shall set you free." Like it did to the very close co-workers of Witness Lee, when Lee and Co. was covering up Philip Lee ... and btw, the cover up of Lee's other son, Timothy Lee. His sexual infractions, with married sisters, is hardly mentioned anywhere. Hardy tells of them, because he caught Tim with is wife - now ex-wife. And Witness knew of it for 9 years, and told Hardy's wife to keep it secret.

If you ask me, Lee brought Nee's ministry to America, and Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual practices to America. Even tho it was known to at least 2500 in Shanghai, when Nee confessed, Witness Lee covered that up too.

Some "Recovery" that is.

Thanks again Nell.

Harold
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:35 PM   #7
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Thanks Harold. If you still have that Don Hardy information you might consider posting it here.

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Old 01-28-2018, 01:49 PM   #8
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Bless you Nell for bringing up this matter.

And you are right, sexual abuse should be reported.

Does it happen in the local church? Yes. Even the founder of the local church, Watchman Nee, admitted to sexual abuse, and rape of sisters. He spent 20 years in prison for that, and illegal business crimes.

Seems power and sexual abuse run together.

Anyway, it can happen anywhere, and by those no one would ever expect.

And it should be reported, no matter of position and power.

Thanks again Nell.

I hadn't known about Nee having a serious moral problem till I read Lily Hsu's book. You could feel her deep sentiment and heavy heart in addressing the tumult that had left the church badly shaken involving her brother in Christ, Watchman Nee, and two of her sisters in the Lord - in incidents she determined to share candidly, and carefully. I have never heard of, or experienced, such a devastating scene of disillusionment and sadness in the church as what Lily depicts and brings to light regarding both government and church judgment in an upheaval and exposure of their brother of high regard, Ni Tuosheng.

Book: My Memories of Watchman Nee and the Shanghai Local Church

The opening quote stunned me when I first read it, and unless I missed something about Nee's sentencing, i think the report could be meaningfully adjusted for accuracy's sake, if someone has enough confidence in what could be changed. (And what I have shared here, or will share, someone please adjust, if necessary, for even a small point or mis-impression on this, a most humanly sensitive subject, on a potentially volatile thread.)
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:30 PM   #9
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Thanks Harold. If you still have that Don Hardy information you might consider posting it here.

Nell
I wouldn't without Don Hardy's permission. However, hit me in PM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:38 PM   #10
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Book: My Memories of Watchman Nee and the Shanghai Local Church
There's a thread on it here on LCD :
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ht=lily&page=4
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Old 01-29-2018, 07:38 AM   #11
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More from John Ingalls' Speaking the Truth in Love

ELDERS’ MEETINGS AND FELLOWSHIP WITH BROTHERS IN IRVING, TEXAS
December 1987


On Saturday afternoon, December 19th Ken Unger and I flew to Irving. I did not relate to him what the sister from the LSM office had just told us. On Monday, December 21st, we made an appointment to see Benson Phillips and Ray Graver in the morning. Having been intimate co-workers with them for many years, and knowing that they were aware of many things, we mentioned the concerns that we had presented to Brother Lee on December 12th, excluding the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. We wanted especially to let them know how strongly we felt regarding the colossal mistake they had made in promoting and exalting the office and Philip Lee, starting in 1981. They said that they did not feel they had erred much. This really surprised and disappointed us. We tried to impress them how serious this matter was. They invited us out for dinner, and we decided to meet again in the afternoon to continue our fellowship.

Upon coming together we attempted amid protests to mention the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. They steadfastly refused to hear about it, but we proceeded to speak. Ray Graver then quickly rose and exited the room. Benson (in whose home we were meeting) also rose to register his displeasure. We felt that they had knowledge relevant to the matter and wanted to confer with them about it. Benson admitted that the same sister from the LSM office (mentioned previously) had come to him in Taipei to disclose a related event, but he strongly protested our bringing this matter before them. They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. Some time later, however, I apologized to Benson and Ray for this, feeling that if they chose not to hear, we should not have forced the issue.


Note that when the Church in Houston "disciplined" Jane Anderson as she described in her book, Benson had no problem attending this "kangaroo court" from his "locality" which at the time was Dallas. I suppose this "affair" was not exclusively under the jurisdiction of the Church in Houston, and that "jurisdiction" changes at the whim of the elders or at the convenience of the elders.

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Old 01-29-2018, 08:12 AM   #12
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They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. Some time later, however, I apologized to Benson and Ray for this, feeling that if they chose not to hear, we should not have forced the issue. -- John Ingalls

Note that when the Church in Houston "disciplined" Jane Anderson as she described in her book, Benson had no problem attending this "kangaroo court" from his "locality" which at the time was Dallas. I suppose this "affair" was not exclusively under the jurisdiction of the Church in Houston, and that "jurisdiction" changes at the whim of the elders or at the convenience of the elders. -- Nell
Hypocrites!

They went to Whistler ski resort in BC, Canada to Quarantine Titus Chu and the Midwest.

They quarantined Dong Yu Lan from their LaPalma offices.

They play this "locality game" whenever it's convenient for them.

They later said that Philip Lee could not be disciplined by the Anaheim elders because he worked at LSM, and was not able to meet with the church there.

"Woe to you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence." -- Mt 23.25
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:35 AM   #13
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Hypocrites!

They went to Whistler ski resort in BC, Canada to Quarantine Titus Chu and the Midwest.

They quarantined Dong Yu Lan from their LaPalma offices.

They play this "locality game" whenever it's convenient for them.

They later said that Philip Lee could not be disciplined by the Anaheim elders because he worked at LSM, and was not able to meet with the church there.

"Woe to you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence." -- Mt 23.25

As you will see below, Philip Lee was excommunicated twice. The Anaheim Elders didn't "preside" over the meeting when Philip was excommunicated the first time. The church members did the deed without the elders.

Those in the Church in Anaheim who could no longer tolerate sexual sin in the camp are to be commended. There is another post on this forum regarding sexual abuse in the Local Church wherein the poster continues to say "Somebody needs to do something (about it)." Well, in 1988 somebody did something...the church.

The Storm Breaks
October 9, 16, 1988
...

The next Lord’s Day morning, October 16th, the same group of saints who spoke on October 9th came again obviously to prolong their denunciations. Godfred stood at the beginning and spoke, begging them to desist and allow us to continue our study of Ephesians. They interrupted him frequently, and he patiently answered their questions. Then we proceeded to read some verses in Ephesians and in a tense atmosphere some bravely attempted to share from the Word. Eventually the saints who were intent on speaking more problematic things begin to take over the meeting with much turmoil, upon which Godfred stood and summarily dismissed the meeting. About sixty percent of those attending, including the elders, left the meeting, leaving about thirty or forty, who remained and had their own meeting.

In our absence they stood and read 1 Corinthians 5 together, and took upon themselves to excommunicate a certain brother whom they believed to be guilty of gross misconduct. The elders had not done it so they did it. One of them then proceeded to tear up the announcements on the church bulletin board regarding the coming training and the Chinese Recovery Version, and threw in the trash some LSM books on display in the bookroom. This one called two days later and apologized for such unruly behavior, and we accepted the apology. Due to the chaotic condition we cancelled the evening meeting at the hall and met that night in homes.


...

EXERCISING DISCIPLINE UPON A BROTHER
November 6, 1988

During the months of September and October 1988 we had much consideration with all the elders in Anaheim regarding how to handle the problem of a certain brother and what action should be taken. It was a matter of serious misconduct on the part of the brother, and due to the ramifications of the affair Godfred, Al, and I, who were more familiar with the case, felt that church discipline should be exercised. Minoru and Philip, the other two elders, did not agree but said they would not try to stop this being done.

The date was eventually set for the Lord’s Day, November 6th. Minoru and Philip still dissented from the decision, but Godfred, Al, and I due to the serious nature of the problem, felt that we must go ahead to deal with it on the English-speaking side even without unanimity with the other two brothers on the Chinese-speaking side. The two brothers agreed to read our statements in the Chinese-speaking meeting, and then follow it with statements of their own dissenting from the action and explaining why. In the English-speaking side we would make our statement and follow it by reading the statements of Minoru and Philip.

Thus at the end of the Lord’s Day meeting, November 6th, Godfred stood and asked all the saints to read 1 Corinthians 5:6-11. He then said that in obedience to the Word of God we must ask all the saints not to associate with the brother being disciplined since we had sufficient evidence that he was such a one as described in 1 Corinthians 5:11. He then read statements by Minoru and Philip dissenting from the announcement. Of course it was a highly unusual step to take without the consensus of the brothers and indeed regrettable that all the elders could not concur in this matter. By this you may realize the situation among the elders and realize how strongly we felt about the matter.

After the meeting Godfred and I visited the wife of the disciplined brother and told her that this action did not apply to her or her children. She had come to the meeting in defiance of Godfred asking her not to come. She was greatly grieved, and we felt sorry for her.
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:46 AM   #14
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"jurisdiction" changes at the whim of the elders or at the convenience of the elders.
Absolutely! Just like wind, jurisdiction can change at a moments notice. In one breath "it's a body matter" and in the next breath "it's a local matter". Whichever is politically beneficial for the brothers at that moment.
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:55 AM   #15
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You are right. But in this topic, it's a police matter. Sexual abuse wherever it occurs is a crime. In the church, it's a shame to the Lord's name. I pray for those who have been attacked, and have come onto this forum to tell their stories.

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Old 01-29-2018, 12:22 PM   #16
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The next Lord’s Day morning, October 16th, the same group of saints who spoke on October 9th came again obviously to prolong their denunciations. Godfred stood at the beginning and spoke, begging them to desist and allow us to continue our study of Ephesians. They interrupted him frequently, and he patiently answered their questions. Then we proceeded to read some verses in Ephesians and in a tense atmosphere some bravely attempted to share from the Word. Eventually the saints who were intent on speaking more problematic things begin to take over the meeting with much turmoil, upon which Godfred stood and summarily dismissed the meeting. About sixty percent of those attending, including the elders, left the meeting, leaving about thirty or forty, who remained and had their own meeting.
In the Midwest back in the late 80's, tapes of this meeting were received, so all of us heard about "chaos" in Anaheim. For me personally, I was never told why or what was the reason for the "tense atmosphere." Of course, no one I knew had received John Ingalls' account of events.

The official word from Titus Chu to all the Midwest brothers was simple and twofold -- How dare John Ingalls and the elders in Anaheim let their meetings get out of hand and protest the leadership of "our brother" Lee. Secondly, Midwest brothers were all encouraged to write "shame on you" letters to these elders, and voice their support for Brother Lee.

In a total vacuum of facts, it all made sense. It wasn't until 2005 or 2006 that I learned from Ingalls' account STTIL that Titus Chu was well aware of Philip Lee's history of abuse and molesting sisters, and his actions could only be construed as political. So much for TC's governing principle: "the mistakes of my spiritual father [WL] are none of my business."

Every worthwhile principle in life must also be governed by proper boundaries. "Mistakes" are mistakes, not the coverup of criminal activities. For example, if your father is beating your mother, and you see it, then it is your business to take some action to protect her. American society is now rife with this exact same scenario because those who should have taken action decided it was "none of their business."

In WL's case, it was far worse than merely saying it was "none of my business." Over a long period of time, WL actively protected his degenerate sons Philip and Timothy, who should have been fired from LSM and arrested, and then WL went further to slander and libel the whistle blowers, whose only "crime" was to speak their conscience and stand up for the children of God. Let's not forget that it was the elders in Anaheim who actually stopped the husband of one of Philip's victims from getting a gun and killing him.

This story reminds me of the Congressional "Shush Fund" we have learned about in recent weeks, with payouts to silence the victims of sexual abuse. Not only was the ministry of WL no better than the numerous Christian ministries he long had condemned, but his own ministry was no different than what we see today in rotten politics.
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:21 PM   #17
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I heard this tape you mention, as well as JI spoke about it.

From John Ingalls, Speaking the Truth in Love

This is JI's account of the incident you described:

A VERY THREATENING INCIDENT
December 1987 – March 1988

In late December a brother in the church in Anaheim who had been severely damaged through the misconduct in LSM office was so traumatized psychologically that he sought revenge and took definite steps to execute a very grave act. (Thank God it never happened.)


Nell

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Old 01-30-2018, 07:25 AM   #18
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CONSIDERING HOW TO BRING THE PROBLEMS BEFORE BROTHER LEE
October – November 1987

The grievous conduct reported by the sister from the LSM office had a precedent that we were well aware of. Ten years previously there had been reports of similar incidents in the LSM office confirmed by several eye-witnesses. This compounded the serious nature of the case.


During the next few days I telephoned several brothers, co-workers whom I respected and trusted and with whom I had served for many years. They were aware of the incidents ten years previously. …


What happened ten years prior in 1978? What is John talking about?

Before the information contained on the Bereans Forum "went away," I regularly downloaded the entire forum which contained the posts on the Local Church. The links to this Local Church section on Breans are broken, so I'm relying on what I downloaded years ago. This post has been cleaned up to remove graphic lines and superfluous html coding.

There are names in this post that appeared for years on the Bereans Forum, therefore I'm repeating them here.

Title: Max Rappaport’s ‘Rebellion’
Posts by: Nell on June 23-24, 2005, 01:52:14 PM
After a brother walked into the Living Stream office of Phillip Lee and caught him "in the act" with a married sister who was not his wife, the brother went to Max. Max went to WL and "rebelled". WL predictably "shot the messenger" and Max was hung out to dry. I think that might the one piece of information that could make a lot of things fall into place for you.

This is the nutshell account that I've heard from several sources, more than once, over many years. In the last few months, I was visiting in a home where one of the guests was the very brother who walked in on Phillip and the sister. It was interesting hearing from him on the subject.

Don Hardy walked in on Phillip Lee in a compromising position. My only documents indicated that it was Warren Peterson. She confirmed that there were actually two occasions where brothers walked in on Phillip Lee in the Living Stream Office.


The History of Philip Lee discussion appears on this forum.

From the information appearing in this thread, and other places, I think we have a picture of who the bad actors were/are and how the culture of sexual abuse in the Local Church and the Living Stream Ministry began and why it continues.

I've attached a copy of the article from the Los Angeles Times dated January 7, 1989 which briefly mentions Max near the end.

Again, we pray for all the young women who were abuse by wolves in sheep's clothing. We pray for their healing and real recovery.

To the present day sexual abusers in the Local Church we say, in addition to being a criminal, you are sick. You need help. Hiding behind the "cover the brothers" teaching of Witness Lee will not stand at the judgment seat of Christ. For your own sake, stop your sinful behavior. Repent to those you have abused and repent to the Body of Christ.

Nell
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LA Times LC Article 01.07.89.pdf (1.87 MB, 121 views)

Last edited by Nell; 01-30-2018 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 01-30-2018, 09:25 AM   #19
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In the immediate days after "the Max incident" of the late 70s, Witness Lee did a lot of rebuking of the LC members for not being "policemen" - in other words for not ratting on their brothers and sisters. (a practice that was no doubt established/encouraged at the beginnings of the LC movement by Watchman Nee, and continued by Lee.)

Of course when the tables were turned not many years later, and many brothers and sisters took up Lee's call to be "a policemen", these whistle blowers were labeled as traders, "negative" "rebellious" "touching God's anointed" "poisoned" "evil ones" and worse. The ones taking the lead to be policeman, such as John Ingalls and John So and were publicly excoriated by Witness Lee in the most vicious and unjust manner.

We now know that this "policeman" garbage was pulled by Witness Lee time and time again going back to the 1950's in Taiwan. We also now know that a number of the earlier American followers of Lee were made aware of these shenanigans in the early days in Los Angeles. They should have taken heed back then and took measures to protect themselves and the flock. They ended up paying a very high price for their negligence.

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Old 01-30-2018, 09:50 AM   #20
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CONSIDERING HOW TO BRING THE PROBLEMS BEFORE BROTHER LEE
October – November 1987

The grievous conduct reported by the sister from the LSM office had a precedent that we were well aware of. Ten years previously there had been reports of similar incidents in the LSM office confirmed by several eye-witnesses. This compounded the serious nature of the case.

During the next few days I telephoned several brothers, co-workers whom I respected and trusted and with whom I had served for many years. They were aware of the incidents ten years previously. …


What happened ten years prior in 1978? What is John talking about?

Nell
After I had read a book full of erroneous and misleading content about men and events & their motives and intentions during a tumultuous period in the churches, I decided to uncover the pertinent details left out of that book, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. / Philip Lee was a chaotic presence in the Local Churches which LSM and church leaders have never spoken about or put into print to show the major cause of division that he was.

from Deviating from the Path

Eyewitness Account of Philip Lee

Warren Peterson witness: Brother Warren Peterson was an eyewitness to the moral misconduct of Philip Lee and a sister at Living Stream in the late seventies that all the elders came to know about, as did Brother Lee. Philip denied the matter vehemently when an elder confronted him, but the sister confessed with many tears when elders came to her. At least one current elder in Anaheim knows this and former elders in Anaheim also know this, along with other saints, and they know the following account, as well, of what happened:

Warren said in an interview with me (2001) that he was working at the Anaheim meeting hall one night when brothers were putting a lot of time in on the Living Stream part of the building to get certain things done. He had been there all day and it was getting close to 10:00 P.M. when Brother Lee and Philip Lee approached him and Nolis Miller to ask if they could work longer. Neither brother wanted to stay but Warren did stay and was painting in a room adjoining the office where Philip (married) and a sister (married) were working. They obviously did not realize he was there, only 50 or 60 feet away, when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. Warren was dumbfounded as this went on for about ten to fifteen minutes. He finished what he was doing and went home, not knowing what to do about what he saw. The next day, a Saturday morning, he was determined to report the incident to an elder and did so. He reported the matter to Francis Ball who acknowledged that this was serious and informed Warren that he would bring it up with the elders that morning. Francis did that and then immediately got back to Warren, who was in the hall working with the maintenance bothers. The elders wanted to see him. He went to them, sat down, and opened to them about what he saw. They, of course, felt this was a very serious matter, one of them (Max Rapoport) stating, “we will get this cleared up, Warren. We can’t have this going on down there in the Living Stream; this will corrupt the church life.”

Max then went to Brother Lee, and upon hearing the report Brother Lee bowed his head and called on the Lord and said, “What shall we do?” Max said they had to do something and suggested that Philip leave Anaheim and go back to Taipei. Brother Lee did not agree with this idea. From that point, his word to the elders was that he would take care of his son. When the question was asked how he could take care of his son when he, Brother Lee, was at home sleeping while his son was still working late with a sister, the answer was the same; he would take care of his son. Although leading brothers and Brother Lee knew about the situation, no action was taken and the sister continued working with Philip at the Living Stream office.

Max Rapoport, wanting to get to the bottom of the story, took Philip to lunch and confronted him on the matter. Philip denied everything, nearly causing a fight in what Max described as a terrible scene in the restaurant. The elders then went to the sister to confront her on the matter and she immediately confessed that the story was true and broke down in tears. She was very sorry and expressed her remorse and repentance to the elders. It was the sister, eventually, not Philip, who was sent out of Anaheim, along with her husband and family, moving away to Texas.

Philip was allowed to continue in his position as manager at LSM for ten years when reports of his immoral behavior again came forth and the pattern of non-discipline was repeated.
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:22 AM   #21
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In the immediate days after "the Max incident" of the late 70s, Witness Lee did a lot of rebuking of the LC members for not being "policemen" - in other words for not ratting on their brothers and sisters. (a practice that was no doubt established/encouraged at the beginnings of the LC movement by Watchman Nee, and continued by Lee.)
I thought the whole "policeman" talk was directed solely at Max. As the story went, it was the churches fault for not standing up to his abuses -- firing elders, sending all the young people to campus training centers, laying waste many LC's, etc.

Here WL proved himself the hypocrite. It was he alone who sent Max out to shake up the LC's. Had anyone like TC acted like a "policeman" and called WL, he would have been severely rebuked for not being "one with the ministry." Once again WL's winds and waves of "flows" came crashing down on innocent children of God, but he of course needed the perfect scapegoat -- Max! After it all died down, Lee came out smelling like a rose, and those who knew better were gone.

Most troubling to me was finally learning of Lee's underhanded methods on this forum. Instead of acting like a gentleman, acknowledging responsibility, he used the old Chinese custom of destroying your opponent by humiliating his wife before all the saints, claiming some secret "sisters rebellion" in the church. This occurred during the Memorial day Conference in Anaheim in 1977.

It was the same time that Benson Philips unloaded on a few Texas sisters as recorded in Jane Anderson's book Thread of Gold. Talk about a copycat crime!
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:48 AM   #22
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Max then went to Brother Lee, and upon hearing the report Brother Lee bowed his head and called on the Lord and said, “What shall we do?” Max said they had to do something and suggested that Philip leave Anaheim and go back to Taipei. Brother Lee did not agree with this idea. From that point, his word to the elders was that he would take care of his son. When the question was asked how he could take care of his son when he, Brother Lee, was at home sleeping while his son was still working late with a sister, the answer was the same; he would take care of his son. Although leading brothers and Brother Lee knew about the situation, no action was taken and the sister continued working with Philip at the Living Stream office.

Philip was allowed to continue in his position as manager at LSM for ten years
when reports of his immoral behavior again came forth and the pattern of non-discipline was repeated.

Brother Lee’s Comment About Philip:
During a troubling time, Brother Lee lacked normal human responses to the church and to many individuals, as the spiritual father of us all. However, he was quite attendant to his own family, to his own reputation, and to the protection and welfare of his own son, Philip Lee. His comment to Francis Ball and John Ingalls showed the state of unreality that he was in regarding his son and the poor choice he had made in making Philip the manager of LSM.

John Ingalls: The following week Brother Lee notified me of the annual meeting of the Board of Directors of the Living Stream Ministry. I had been a board member and the secretary of the corporation since its inception in 1968, and I still occupied these positions. The meeting was to take place at his home, Friday morning, July 15th. Present at the meeting were Brother Lee, Sister Lee, Philip Lee, Francis Ball, and myself, the five board members. Brother Lee as the president called the meeting to order and announced that the main purpose of the meeting was to elect officers for the coming year.

After the board meeting was adjourned, Sister Lee and Philip Lee left the room, and Brother Lee continued to talk at length with Francis Ball and myself about the current situation. I just listened, saying very little. He said how much he and Philip Lee and their families had suffered through all the talk about them. He then stated, “Philip, of course, is not perfect; nobody is perfect!” It shocked me that he would make such an inappropriate statement as that after all that had been said and done.
WL did nothing about his sons. Reminds me of old Eli in I Samuel. Actually WL did do something, he promoted his son Philip to "Office Manager," the 2nd in command, subjecting every worker, elder, and saint to his abuse. But hey, what's a little sexual abuse between friends. Nobody is perfect, you know.

Gymnastics Doctor Larry Nassar was not perfect either, and I'm sure his family suffered too! And by the way, Jerry Sandusky's family suffered too. Nasser and Sandusky, however, will finish their days in prison.

Who cares? Obviously WL cared nothing about the victims. Every time I read this, it makes me sick. WL had so many lieutenants who protected him, did his rotten bidding, and acted as ministry "hit men" to silence each and every whistleblower.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:02 PM   #23
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Eyewitness Accounts of Philip Lee
According to Philip Lin's book Sacrifice and Sail On, these eyewitness accounts never happened. That's the historical revisionism expected from LSM co-workers. Facts becomes discarded as fiction. Essentially what it means brothers giving eyewitness accounts are being called liars.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:18 PM   #24
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You are right. But in this topic, it's a police matter. Sexual abuse wherever it occurs is a crime. In the church, it's a shame to the Lord's name. I pray for those who have been attacked, and have come onto this forum to tell their stories.
Nell
In the local church culture it's understood never get the police involved. If one does go to the police, it's received as one who is not taking the cross on the matter.
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Old 01-30-2018, 02:56 PM   #25
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In the local church culture it's understood never get the police involved. If one does go to the police, it's received as one who is not taking the cross on the matter.
Taking the cross? Submitting to sexual abuse is not the cross. What a horrible and disgusting perversion of a most sacred spiritual truth. That has gone on long enough and it's time it stopped.To use the cross as a weapon against Christian women in order to service the fleshly desires of fleshly, sinful and corrupt men who are little more than wolves in sheep's clothing is beyond reprehensible.

It's a new day. It's time to call the police. Let the criminals "take the cross."

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Old 01-31-2018, 05:41 AM   #26
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these whistle blowers were labeled as traders, "negative" "rebellious" "touching God's anointed"
-
When I stated that Lee brought Nee's ministry to America, and Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual improprieties to America, I failed to mention that Lee also brought his bag of tricks in covering up such improprieties. Given Nee's improprieties back in Shanghai, this was old hat to Lee. He knew exactly what to do, and what to say. He had pulled off this scam before, and saw it work.

Some might consider: “By telling the truth, the children of God will stumble, God would not be glorified, and the current Local Churches will also be suffered.” Even some might condemn those who intend to expose the true history of Nee. During the family chaos after Nee’s wedding, Witness Lee said: “By the Lord’s mercy, Sister Wang and I decided to know nothing, do nothing, and say nothing concerning this problem.”(22)
~Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana. My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 4397-4400). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.


In Shanghai Nee was looked up to as God's anointed.

Okay, given that Nee started the local church movement in China, this notion of "don't touch God's anointed" made some sense, even if covering up for Nee's sexual sins and adultery, by using Old Testament history, was reprehensible. However, it made no sense when applied to Philip. Philip, in no way shape or form, could be considered God's anointed

Still, Lee reached into that old grab bag, that he used and brought from Shanghai, and whipped out "don't touch God's anointed."

Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual ways to America, Lee brought his ministry, and Lee also brought the way to excuse and cover up such illicit matters. He had seen it before, done it before, having applied it to Nee, back in Shanghai.

Maybe it was old and shopworn, but it worked when applied to Nee, back in the day, and I'll be darn, it worked when applied to Philip too.

I'm sorry, but this makes Lee look like a shyster. And Nee too.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:26 AM   #27
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The Shameful Behavior Continues

Poster “Hope” has revealed his own name: Don Rutledge. I believe this is common knowledge now.

The posts below do not make it clear, but there were two instances of sexual immorality discussed below. Don Rutledge (Hope) revealed the first instance when Ben McPherson confessed to Ray Graver. I don’t have an exact date for the conversation among the 5 elders below, but it can be traced back to the approximate time that Ben moved to Tyler, which we also don’t have an exact date for. If someone has this date (Don?) please post it.

The second instance occurred quite a few years later, and was discovered in 1991. If not for Witness Lee, Benson and Ray, the sisters in Irving, Arlington, Dallas and Fort Worth would have at least known that there was a sexual predator among them. Instead, they never knew...until the unthinkable happened. How many sisters today know that there are sexual predators among them in the Local Churches????

…and the history of sexual sin and sexual abuse in the Local Churches continues.


The Public Square (http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/index.php)
- Nee, Lee & the Church of Recovery

(http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=342)
- - Texas History (http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=39906)

SECOND IMMORAL CASE (EMPHASIS BY NELL TO CLARIFY)
Ben McPherson had an affair with the wife of a brother he had served with in the Local Church in Houston, and then divorced his wife. When the affair was found out, she divorced her husband.

Ben is now married to his brother's former wife. She was my friend, my sister in the Lord, and a spiritual mother to me for years. Some of us tried to help rescue her, but we all failed.

We begged Benson Phillips to try and help rescue these two marriages too. Benson was close to all the parties involved and was responsible for a serious problem which only he could clear up. He was too busy. He had to fly off to spread the church life to Russia. KSA can tell you how well that went.

Ben's children and his brother's children all grew up together in Houston.

Nell

Nell 10-29-07 09:38
________________________________________
Quote Thankful: post #102

If anyone "in-the-know" in Texas had spoken out "negatively" about Ben M.'s condition many years ago when it was discovered, what happened to the brother who lost his wife might have been avoided.

Whoever knew and didn't tell bears a measure of responsibility in that situation since Ben M. was an elder and should have been publicly corrected. Ben M. might have even been helped. Instead, it looks like he was "protected" at his own expense and at the expense of the uninformed sheep.

No Christian likes to hear these kind of things about a fellow believer. But then again, neither does anyone like to hear a doctor say they have cancer.

If a doctor isn't willing to speak "negatively" when cancer is found, he plays a part in the outcome.

Thankful

Nell 10-29-07 09:42
________________________________________
Hope: #103

Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

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Old 01-31-2018, 09:04 AM   #28
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Once again scripture was discarded in favor of the MOTA.

How many times were brothers led by the Lord in a definite direction only to get a call from HQ's that changed everything?

Yet we called this "fellowship." And we declared ourselves a "local" church, governed by local elders.

No more need to pray and seek the Lord ... had not God spoken?

Yet ... this new way from HQ's never was blessed by the Lord. And no one dared to bring that up.
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Old 01-31-2018, 12:03 PM   #29
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Witness Lee said: “By the Lord’s mercy, Sister Wang and I decided to know nothing, do nothing, and say nothing concerning this problem.”(22)[/B]
~Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana. My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 4397-4400). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition. [/COLOR]
My goodness! Never read the book, but it is telling. If you don't learn from history, you're bound to repeat it.
Fast forward 40+ years to late 1980s Anaheim and you wonder why the Church in Anaheim was in a riotous atmosphere?
Saints were looking to the elders to do the just thing. The elders were looking to Witness Lee to do the right thing. All the while he "knew nothing, did nothing, and said nothing concerning this problem”.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:16 PM   #30
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What is perhaps the most disturbing of it all was the fact that Lee was in a position of power and trust, and he continually abused it. He disregarded concerns that were brought to his attention, because it benefited him to do so. He ignored Nee's escapade, saying that he wanted to know nothing about it. He protected his own sons, despite the outrage at what they had done. In another case, he just had the elders tell a brother to move away instead of actually dealing with the situation.
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Old 02-01-2018, 06:48 AM   #31
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The horror in this post was removed by Happiernow after only a few minutes. She revealed so much that she, at once, thought better of it, and I totally understand. I read all of it and was shocked. It was the worst case of spiritual abuse by a man/predator in the Local Church that I have ever seen.

The replacement post she left in tact asks a question. A few more have responded with their own experiences by Local Church predators who abuse women.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...18&postcount=1

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The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this?
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Happiernow,
Your story breaks my heart. I'm so sorry. It's amazing that you have chosen "happiernow" as your moniker. I believe that during the horror you've experienced in your young life, that God was weeping with you and his heart is surely broken also. The things you described are not of Him, but clearly from his enemy, the Devil.

No one can hurt you as much as your family. That includes your earthly family as well as your Christian brothers and sisters. There are many stories of abuse by Local Church "authorities" who lord it over God's children.

Please don't give up on Him. How can I help you?

Nell
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Old 02-01-2018, 06:58 AM   #32
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Here's another story from a young woman who says "It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again.".

The full post is here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...96&postcount=1

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Hi everyone!
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I was involved in LC in the Midwest for a good 4 years. I was gained on campus when I was a freshman. Was very active on campus. Been to all training and conferences I could afford to go to. Loved spending time with the saints. Dropped out of all other extracurriculars by the end of those 4 years. Lost almost all other contacts as well.

...
Been in behavioral therapy for two years and I can't praise it enough. Therapy saved my life. It rebuilt me as a person from thought processes to actions. I was so damaged and biased and narrow minded I would literally gasp reading some of my old journals from LC years. I didn't sound like a real person; everything on those pages sounded very manufactured and... fake. I was so lost that I didn't feel safe to be honest with myself even, what a tragedy.
Going back to the title. I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years.
...
... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. ...

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again.
Nell
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:25 PM   #33
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Here's another story from a young woman who says "It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again.".
Her apparent support for the lqgbtqy makes me suspicious. Then again that and feminism go hand in hand dont they? Feminism is about getting rid of men and lesbianism is about filling the void.
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:36 PM   #34
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Her apparent support for the lqgbtqy makes me suspicious. Then again that and feminism go hand in hand dont they? Feminism is about getting rid of men and lesbianism is about filling the void.
Women being sexually abused in the Local Church for decades and it being covered up by Née, Lee and the current leadership makes me suspicious.

Don't blame the victim for the damage done to them.
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:53 PM   #35
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Don't blame the victim for the damage done to them.
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:26 PM   #36
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Her apparent support for the lqgbtqy makes me suspicious. Then again that and feminism go hand in hand dont they? Feminism is about getting rid of men and lesbianism is about filling the void.
Does the LC leadership take any responsibility for many young people who leave their faith and have negative attitudes towards men after being victimized?

What do you think "stumbling the least of these" looks like, Evangelical?
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:48 PM   #37
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Those who neatly side-step the issue of the long-standing (and continuing) treatment of women make me suspicious. Remember - Jesus met people where they were. He didn't say, "Go up to Jerusalem; there, I'll meet you by the altar." If you don't see this basic point how can you even preach the gospel?

You have to meet people where they are; if you can't meet people where they are and remain connected to God, then are you really connected to God?
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:06 PM   #38
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Women being sexually abused in the Local Church for decades and it being covered up by Née, Lee and the current leadership makes me suspicious.
Don't blame the victim for the damage done to them.
There is no indication in her post that she was sexually abused for decades. She cites passive aggressiveness from a racist roommate.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:35 PM   #39
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There is no indication in her post that she was sexually abused for decades. She cites passive aggressiveness from a racist roommate.
But that's hardly the point, is it?

The point is the hypocrisy of Witness Lee's ministry and the fruit it has been bearing ever since his son Philip was caught in the LSM office with a sister who was another man's wife. The point is Benson and Ray listening to Witness Lee and not dealing with BenM as they KNEW they should and influencing three other elders in Texas to do the same. The point is these men LIED to the saints and didn't protect the sisters with the truth. The point is BenM later seduced his brother's wife, breaking up two marriages and marrying his brother's wife. The point is that sexual sin continues in the Local Churches TO THIS DAY.

If you want to make a meaningful contribution to this topic, why don't you print it out and carry it to Benson Phillips, Ray Graver and Ron Kangas. Tell them that sexual abuse in the Local Churches cannot continue. Tell them that this sexual abuse in the Local Churches is to the point of being "common knowledge". Tell them this is sinful hypocrisy and makes a mockery of the Lord's name. Tell them this hypocrisy exposes the ministry of Witness Lee as a sham. Tell them that women in the Body of Christ who touch the Local Churches are becoming shipwrecked in their faith because of the predators who abuse women and because of the "brothers" who condone such behavior by their inaction. Tell them you will not stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ with this on your conscience.

Tell them that if THEY DON'T do something about it, YOU WILL. Then YOU stand up in the meeting and TELL THE CHURCH. Otherwise, you're just the same old troll you've been since began posting on this forum. All your pontificating about the wonderful Local Churches and the ministry of Witness Lee are blatant hypocrisy. You're just as big a hypocrite as they are.

Blow the whistle on this criminal behavior before it becomes a police matter.

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Old 02-02-2018, 03:30 AM   #40
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LEADING IN THE WORK

When God’s work started in several places in China in 1921, some truths were not clearly distinguished. For instance, grace and law were not clearly defined; nor were the kingdom of heaven and eternal life, grace and reward, or salvation and victory clearly differentiated. The understanding of truths in the Lord was neither deep nor rich enough. However, the understanding of the gospel of grace was comparatively clear, and it was being quite clearly preached at that time when Mr. Wang Ming-dao was in Teh-Chow, Sister Pearl Wang and Ruth Lee were in Nanking, and some other workers and I were in Foochow.
Look at any LSM history and it's rife with statements like this. Clearly women were instrumental in "Leading the Work" at one point. But they were railroaded when they were no longer expedient, and were a potential threat to those who held power. When the organisation-building process reached critical mass, suddenly they had to "know their place".

The Recovered Church aka Little Flock aka Local Church became another human institution, with all the attendant issues, not unlike the NCAA's Big Ten Sports programs (see, Penn State U. and Michigan State U. athletic departments).

People covered the crimes to protect the institution, and they protected the institution because it fed them power. They had power to abuse, control, manipulate. But no power to heal.
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:43 AM   #41
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The tragedy of actual church history tells us, like the Catholic church scandal, that leaders will always lie and coverup criminal activities to preserve their "reputations."

Don't tell me leaders at LSM are any different than today's politicians either. They rule just "like the Gentiles" we were all warned about.
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:53 AM   #42
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They lie and cover until someone blows the whistle.That's what I'm praying for.

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Old 02-02-2018, 05:59 AM   #43
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The tragedy of actual church history tells us, like the Catholic church scandal, that leaders will always lie and coverup criminal activities to preserve their "reputations."

Don't tell me leaders at LSM are any different than today's politicians either. They rule just "like the Gentiles" we were all warned about.
Women in Hollywood have the courage to stand up to Harvey Weinstein, by comparison Phillip Lee was nothing. The sister's in the church have the spirit of Jesus Christ within them. How are they going to rule the gentiles if they cannot stand up to little Phillip Lee?

I have no idea how many people covered up for PL, but if you knew you should have stood up regardless of whether you were a "small sister" or a "leader". This is what it means to "take up your cross and follow Me". You have to stand up for what you know is right regardless of the cost.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:18 AM   #44
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First, I have said it many times.... if there is criminal behavior it should be reported to the police.

Yet, this whole conversation begs the questions....

Why did John Ingalls, or Godfred who knew before John mentioned it to him, not report the criminal behavior to the police? Did John or Godfred not consider the behavior criminal but rather immoral?

If immoral then why was it so and not criminal?

If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?

This forum asks probing questions about why Witness Lee didnt take his son out back behind the barn and shoot him....in a manner of speaking. How about factoring in what Brother John actually said since he is being quoted extensively. What did he say that indicates he thought this was criminal behavior? You may think it was but did he?

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Old 02-02-2018, 06:38 AM   #45
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Why didn't Witness Lee call the police?

Was not he the spiritual leader? The Minister of the Age?

The one who claimed to be today's Paul, yet unlike Paul, he never exercised to have a good conscience void of offense.

Why did Witness Lee promise to take care of these matters, assuring the brothers around him, and then covered up criminal activity.

The elders and saints wanted to go to the police. It was Lee who stopped them.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:04 AM   #46
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If immoral then why was it so and not criminal? If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?
Some of Phillip Lee's actions were immoral, and some criminal. Your post conflates the two.

When Max first confronted him, that event was immoral, and we know this because the sister confessed as much. Yet, it was still abuse because he used his power.

Since Phillip knew he could act with impunity, without accountability, and protected by his Daddy with his cadre of enforcers, his immoral actions became more aggressive. Eventually, the husband of one molested sister planned to shoot Philip.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:28 AM   #47
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Legally, the victims must file charges. Then the witnesses need to stand up and speak to the abuser or his enabler like John did. Hindsight is 20/20. We can't do anything about what happened 40 years ago. Every case is different, but just because no one called the police then doesn't mean they couldn't have or shouldn't have.

We can only expose the sin in the camp today. We can encourage and support those being abused today. Most important, we can listen to them and believe they are telling the truth. If they decide to report to the police, we can support them in this too because it is an option.

My post #44 suggests a course of action to those in the Local Church. You could go to your local leadership and expose the matter. What you cannot do is continue the cover up by making spurious arguments that mimimize the topic and those who may never recover from their experience with Witness Lee's "ministry".

Most of all we pray for the sisters. We pray that this gross sin in the Body of Christ will end.

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Old 02-02-2018, 09:41 AM   #48
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First, I have said it many times.... if there is criminal behavior it should be reported to the police.

Yet, this whole conversation begs the questions....

Why did John Ingalls, or Godfred who knew before John mentioned it to him, not report the criminal behavior to the police? Did John or Godfred not consider the behavior criminal but rather immoral?

If immoral then why was it so and not criminal?

If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?

This forum asks probing questions about why Witness Lee didnt take his son out back behind the barn and shoot him....in a manner of speaking. How about factoring in what Brother John actually said since he is being quoted extensively. What did he say that indicates he thought this was criminal behavior? You may think it was but did he?

Drake
Hey Drake, I think you are right ... if there's a crime committed, like rape.

But the goings-on in the LSM office wasn't a crime, that I know of. From what I understand, it was consenting adults. And adultery isn't a crime.

As usual, the cover up is as bad as the infraction. Why keep it hush-hush?

That's obvious. To protect the integrity and reputation of the church.

Take John Ingalls. Did he follow Matthew 18:15-17? Yes. But he didn't "tell it to the church." (He did write a book, however).

My question is then, were there crimes committed? If so, it/they should have been reported to the authorities.

I still support the 'MeToo' movement, and think those abused in the LC should be included in it.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:58 AM   #49
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Hey Drake, I think you are right ... if there's a crime committed, like rape.

But the goings-on in the LSM office wasn't a crime, that I know of. From what I understand, it was consenting adults. And adultery isn't a crime.

As usual, the cover up is as bad as the infraction. Why keep it hush-hush?

That's obvious. To protect the integrity and reputation of the church.

Take John Ingalls. Did he follow Matthew 18:15-17? Yes. But he didn't "tell it to the church." (He did write a book, however).

My question is then, were there crimes committed? If so, it/they should have been reported to the authorities.

I still support the 'MeToo' movement, and think those abused in the LC should be included in it.
Right. That is how I read it too.

There was no crime so Brother John did not go to the police. What would the police do? Adultery is not a crime, it is a sin. They would have told Brother John the same thing Benson did. Brother John needed to deal with it.

Therefore, the allegations of rape are false. As terrible as the sin was it was not a crime. There is nothing to report to the police. By every account presented it was consensual. Yet, why did Brother John and Godfred wait so long to take action and only then after a near insurrection in the meeting hall?

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Old 02-02-2018, 11:28 AM   #50
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Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.
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Old 02-02-2018, 11:45 AM   #51
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If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?

This forum asks probing questions about why Witness Lee didnt take his son out back behind the barn and shoot him....in a manner of speaking. How about factoring in what Brother John actually said since he is being quoted extensively. What did he say that indicates he thought this was criminal behavior? You may think it was but did he?

Drake
How many times did the brothers go to Witness Lee? 12? 13? In my opinion they were looking to Witness Lee to do what was right and just. Longer it went on, the less patience many meeting as the Church in Anaheim had.
Speaking of John in particular when it came to the "fake news" of John being ambitious and "wanting to take over the recovery", by that time he had been a co-worker for more than 25 years. having served alongside him for all those years certainly there was a measure of respecting Witness Lee as a fellow brother and knowing the love a father has for his children. That he would defer to Witness Lee to do the right thing.
Regarding Witness lee, many viewed him as my serving ones taught me that Witness Lee is a modern day apostle Paul.
When you place a brother on such a pedestal, certainly you expect his actions to be in accord to his ministry.
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:08 PM   #52
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Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.
Bro OBW are you saying because of the power factor it was rape?
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:12 PM   #53
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Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

OBW,

Exactly. And why would a sister talk to John and Godfred about a consentual "relationship" with Philip Lee??? Does this sound like "consent"?

From Speaking the Truth in Love...
Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.

...

In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. ...

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

...
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:21 PM   #54
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Brother John was right.. it was repulsive.

So, if it was a crime, why didn't Brother John go to the police... and why not that very same morning?

"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. "
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:25 PM   #55
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OBW,

Exactly. And why would a sister talk to John and Godfred about a consentual "relationship" with Philip Lee??? Does this sound like "consent"?

From Speaking the Truth in Love...
Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.
...
In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. ...

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

...
So sister Nell, are you saying it was rape?
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Old 02-02-2018, 01:18 PM   #56
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Right. That is how I read it too.

There was no crime so Brother John did not go to the police. What would the police do? Adultery is not a crime, it is a sin. They would have told Brother John the same thing Benson did. Brother John needed to deal with it.

Therefore, the allegations of rape are false. As terrible as the sin was it was not a crime. There is nothing to report to the police. By every account presented it was consensual. Yet, why did Brother John and Godfred wait so long to take action and only then after a near insurrection in the meeting hall?

Drake
Work place sexual abuse is not a crime?

Using your position to disadvantage the staff, often volunteers, is just a sin? Is that a mortal sin or just a venial sin, Drake?
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Old 02-02-2018, 01:38 PM   #57
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Brother John was right.. it was repulsive.

So, if it was a crime, why didn't Brother John go to the police... and why not that very same morning?

"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. "
Drake
Do you really wish to critique John Ingalls and exonerate Witness and Phillip Lee with this defense?
Quote:
That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.
Doesn't sound consensual to me.
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Old 02-02-2018, 01:40 PM   #58
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The fact that John Ingalls and the others were "were revulsed to the depths of our being" should tell us all we need to know about the nature of the gross sexual misconduct of Phillip Lee. There is no need to get into all the gory details of this sordid affair on this public forum.

What revusles me to the depths of my being is Witness Lee's words and actions (or lack thereof) when he was made aware IN SPECIFIC DETAIL regarding Phillip Lee's gross misconduct. (in fact our dear brother Lee had been informed about Phillip's sordid behavior for YEARS before) At first he didn't want to even discipline his sexual predator son....he apparently just shrugged his shoulders and said "Nobody's Perfect!" Only when he realized that he was about to lose his iron grip on "The Recovery" did he take any serious action.

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. This magnitude of corruption and deception does not come upon a movement in any short period of time....it was years and years and even decades in the making. The recent revelations regarding the sexual misconduct of Watchman Nee now bring a clearer understanding of how and when this corruption and deception entered the LC movement from the very beginnings. From the recent testimonies here on this very forum, we know for sure that this same spirit of utter corruption and deception is still active to this day. May God have mercy.

So strong is this spirit of deception, that otherwise spiritually mature, sane and sensible people will do things, and cover up things, that even unsaved and unsanctified people would scarcely consider doing. How else does one account for the inaction of people like John Ingalls, Al Knoch, Godfred Otutey, Bill Malon, John So and many others in the face of such utter corruption for years and even decades? Of course they all paid a very high price for their decided ignorance and inexcusable tolerance. To be sure, many of these men did eventual act decisively and courageously. Better late than never. But I'm afraid maybe too late for some of the hundreds upon hundreds (thousands?) of vanquished foes strung along the highway of outcasts and defectors of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

Thankfully, our God of mercy and grace is waiting to comfort and heal. For any who need help with this process we are here as well.

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Old 02-02-2018, 01:59 PM   #59
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Let's not forget that it was the elders in Anaheim who actually stopped the husband of one of Philip's victims from getting a gun and killing him.
Did you see the video of that guy with 3 daughters reading to that slimy Larry Nasser doctor during sentencing. Another few seconds and he would have killed the guy. The judge was great, and let him go.

This is the kind of meeting that an honorable Witness Lee should have forced Philip to endure. Let all his victims rebuke him to his face, and shame Philip before all.
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:32 PM   #60
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Work place sexual abuse is not a crime?

Using your position to disadvantage the staff, often volunteers, is just a sin? Is that a mortal sin or just a venial sin, Drake?
Ohio,

Of course, sexual abuse is a crime. Anywhere.

What’s your point?

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Old 02-02-2018, 04:07 PM   #61
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Ohio, Of course, sexual abuse is a crime. Anywhere. What’s your point?
Your post #54 implied it was merely an affair.

You quickly rush to judge Ingalls, but never place responsibility on your MOTA.
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Old 02-02-2018, 04:27 PM   #62
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Your post #54 implied it was merely an affair.
You quickly rush to judge Ingalls, but never place responsibility on your MOTA.
Ohio,

So you are saying that Warren Peterson’s eyewitness testimony is inaccurate and that brothers John and Godfred received a confession and repentance from the sister when they should not have since she was a victim and not a willing participant.

If you believe that then why didn’t they call the cops?


"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact........The elders then went to the sister to confront her on the matter and she immediately confessed that the story was true and broke down in tears. She was very sorry and expressed her remorse and repentance to the elders.

Your sensational charge of rape does not hold up. The eyewitness testimony states consensual and Brothers John and Godfred, the elders, did not report the crime. Unless you believe the elders were also negligent in caring for the flock by not reporting a crime and complicit in the crime by allowing it to go unchecked for a year or more.

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Old 02-02-2018, 04:40 PM   #63
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All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. -
The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth.

It happened to the Mega-church in Ft. Lauderdale, Calvary Chapel, that had grown to 20,000 members.

Pastor Bob, as he was called, had what he called the Moses system of church governance. That is, God delivers to the Moses figure, pastor Bob in this case, who carries the ultimate unquestioned authority of God. That same unquestioned authority was delegated to the 200 preachers below him.

That allowed all kinds of sorted behavior, because the leadership went unquestioned, and were unaccountable.

Long story short, Pastor Bob got caught messing with married sisters, and the preachers below him were even involved with same sex relations. It was all covered up until a whistleblower came forth.

It happens in cults. Rose McGowan, for example, that was first to expose Weinstein, grew up in The Children of God, that was basically a sex cult. At least they were honest, and didn't cover it up.

That's the kind of thing Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority produces ... and that was produced in Lee's Recovery movement.
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:32 PM   #64
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The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth.
That's the problem with deputy authority doctrine and practice. You can run roughshod over brothers and sisters without any real consequence. They either have to take it or leave.
The doctrine produces pride and negates any possibility of being called for accountability.
Reading the various posts through the day. So much focus what was included in John's book.
Not even talking about ones whose stories have yet to be told.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:56 PM   #65
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Ohio,

So you are saying that Warren Peterson’s eyewitness testimony is inaccurate and that brothers John and Godfred received a confession and repentance from the sister when they should not have since she was a victim and not a willing participant.

If you believe that then why didn’t they call the cops?


"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact........The elders then went to the sister to confront her on the matter and she immediately confessed that the story was true and broke down in tears. She was very sorry and expressed her remorse and repentance to the elders.

Your sensational charge of rape does not hold up. The eyewitness testimony states consensual and Brothers John and Godfred, the elders, did not report the crime. Unless you believe the elders were also negligent in caring for the flock by not reporting a crime and complicit in the crime by allowing it to go unchecked for a year or more.

Drake
Get your facts straight.

These events happened a decade apart.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:01 PM   #66
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But that's hardly the point, is it?
You cited someones post who did not say they were sexually abused and tried to make it sound as if they were. If they had issues with the roomate or the training that is a different matter altogether so I dont see the relevance. Clearly their experiences have nothing to do with the matters you have raised.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:42 PM   #67
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Get your facts straight.

These events happened a decade apart.
Well ,ok. Indiana just tossed that in without putting it a timeframe, so don’t get so snippy.

Take your pick..... neither support the rape allegation you made.

What testimony makes that case? Nothing presented thus far substantiates that allegation.

Don’t you think that if Brother John thought a rape was committed that he would have called the police?

Seriously, what kind of person do you think he was?

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Old 02-02-2018, 09:36 PM   #68
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Ohio,

So you are saying that Warren Peterson’s eyewitness testimony is inaccurate and that brothers John and Godfred received a confession and repentance from the sister when they should not have since she was a victim and not a willing participant.
The evidence presented suggests the sister was a willing participant. Else what did she have to repent for.

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If you believe that then why didn’t they call the cops?
Again, you are right bro Drake. But more often than not it doesn't work that way. Consider that all parties are devoted to selling to the world Christ and the Church. So the last thing any of them would want to do is to degrade and stain that message. Going to the authorities would make it public, and would give the church a bad rep. Their reflex would be to keep it in house.

If the sister was forcibly violated then, she shouldn't have taken the assault to anyone in the church. She should have gone straight to the cops. But there again, since she said that, she "served [LSM] sacrificially and faithfully" her reflex would be to protect the reputation of that which she was devoting her life to.

The best way to do that was to take it to the elder(s). And if you ask me, the elder(s) should be legally obligated to report it to the authorities. But again, everyone would want to protect the message that they were giving their whole life to. To accomplish that, if her devotion was still intact, it's likely the sister would carry that as her silent cross, while going on with Christ and the Church.

Surely you understand that ... right bro Drake?

It's been a long time, but I can still put myself into that mindset. And I can tell you right here and now that, in that devotional mind set, the last thing I would want is for any of this to reach the public eye.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:45 PM   #69
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Surely you understand that ... right bro Drake?
It's been a long time, but I can still put myself into that mindset. And I can tell you right here and now that, in that devotional mind set, the last thing I would want is for any of this to reach the public eye.
Yes Awareness, I understand that a person can be a willing participant for a personal preference or even a belief in a noble cause. Still, that is consensual. I am objecting to the sensationalism and mischaracterization of calling it rape. She did not claim it was rape.John or Godfred did not call it rape. The only ones calling it rape are forum members.....

You misunderstand me on your last point. I am of the belief that anything that can be destroyed should be destroyed. I have no need to hide anything from the public eye. I am not so inclined. But neither do I cast off all restraint.... we always must consider our words before the Lord and be well pleasing to Him.

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Old 02-03-2018, 05:56 AM   #70
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http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...18&postcount=1
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The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this?
Happiernow's full story was posted only a few minutes. I happened to open it and read it before she deleted it. She revealed so much information but thought better of it. She deleted it quickly.


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Happiernow,
Your story breaks my heart. I'm so sorry. It's amazing that you have chosen "happiernow" as your moniker. I believe that during the horror you've experienced in your young life, that God was weeping with you and his heart is surely broken also. The things you described are not of Him, but clearly from his enemy, the Devil.

No one can hurt you as much as your family. That includes your earthly family as well as your Christian brothers and sisters. There are many stories of abuse by Local Church "authorities" who lord it over God's children.
Please don't give up on Him. How can I help you?
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:44 AM   #71
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Well ,ok. Indiana just tossed that in without putting it a timeframe, so don’t get so snippy.
Take your pick..... neither support the rape allegation you made.
What testimony makes that case? Nothing presented thus far substantiates that allegation.
So I am "snippy" for telling you to get your facts straight before you challenge men of God and defend that degenerate Philip Lee?
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:47 AM   #72
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Happiernow's full story was posted only a few minutes. I happened to open it and read it before she deleted it. She revealed so much information but thought better of it. She deleted it quickly.
I also read Happiernow's full story which was posted.

It was far worse than Nell is now telling us.
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:00 AM   #73
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So I am "snippy" for telling you to get your facts straight before you challenge men of God and defend that degenerate Philip Lee?
Right. Snippy.

Provide the citation that substantiates rape. And stop mischaracterizing my objections. I am not defending Philip Lee.

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Old 02-03-2018, 07:41 AM   #74
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Right. Snippy. Provide the citation that substantiates rape. And stop mischaracterizing my objections. I am not defending Philip Lee.
Drake, were the Anaheim elders right to excommunicate Philip Lee? And was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the measure?
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:02 AM   #75
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I am objecting to the sensationalism and mischaracterization of calling it rape.
Maybe I missed it, but I asked twice if poster's out here are saying the sister was raped, and neither time was the answer "yes."

Philip was acting the big shot and was sexually inappropriate when I was there but it was kept secret. I was gone by the time it came to light. But I've been on these forums for years, and if he ever did, I've never heard he rape a sister. If he did I'm sorry for that sister(s), but if so she should have reported it to the law then and there.

But if it did happen, and the sister(s) kept quiet, I understand. We can't talk freely about sex out here on this forum, much, much, much less in the LC environment. That is very clear with John I. The sister's claim was dealt with very hush-hushly. Even when he confronted it, and the offense wasn't dealt with, John didn't follow Matthew 18, and announce it to the church. Talking about sex is anathema to Christians in general. I can't even mention spiritual h******ts out here, for some weird strange reason.

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She did not claim it was rape.John or Godfred did not call it rape.
We've seen claims of rape in the MeToo movement, but long after the statue of limitation has passed. Perhaps that will happen with sisters in the LC. Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell. Look how long it took for Watchman Nee's rapes to come out. Those three sisters didn't report it either. Why, bro Drake, why?

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You misunderstand me on your last point. I am of the belief that anything that can be destroyed should be destroyed. I have no need to hide anything from the public eye. I am not so inclined. But neither do I cast off all restraint.... we always must consider our words before the Lord and be well pleasing to Him.
Drake
I might be wrong, I don't know, but I think speaking the truth pleases the Lord.

Thanks for your reply bro Drake. You're a peach.
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:07 AM   #76
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Right. Snippy.
Provide the citation that substantiates rape. And stop mischaracterizing my objections. I am not defending Philip Lee.
By defending the Lee's and attacking whistleblowers, you align yourself with sleazy.

No one is mischaracterizing you. You don't any help for that.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:00 AM   #77
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Drake, were the Anaheim elders right to excommunicate Philip Lee? And was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the measure?
Yes, they were.

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:03 AM   #78
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By defending the Lee's and attacking whistleblowers, you align yourself with sleazy.

No one is mischaracterizing you. You don't any help for that.
No one is attacking whistleblowers. You are not a whistleblower.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:19 AM   #79
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Yes, they were.

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?
Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the excommunication?
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:37 AM   #80
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All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. -
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The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth....
That's the kind of thing Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority produces ... and that was produced in Lee's Recovery movement.
awareness has brought up one of the roots of the problems we are discussing on this thread.
"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" Not a verse in the Bible but speaks of a universal truth nonetheless.

One of the main reasons that the Local Church of Witness Lee got nailed with the "cult" tag back in the 70s is the abject power invested in one man as the unquestioned "one apostle with the one ministry for the age". Of course Lee's off-the-wall home-brewed theology didn't help. Neither did their secrecy about what is really taught and practiced behind the meeting hall doors.

John Myer, in his book A Future and A Hope outlined this dynamic:

The most glaring of these was the stress on the group’s central figure, Witness Lee. I understood the concept of appreciation and respect toward ministers, but when titles like “the oracle,” “the minister of the age” and “the apostle” were routinely ascribed to Lee it struck me as being devotion of an unbalanced kind. According to my long-term observations, this issue alone raised red flags in more people than all the other questionable items in the Local Church Movement put together.
-
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:03 AM   #81
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Yes, they were.
Do you think excommunication was sufficient?
Sufficient or not, this rightful and righteous excommunication of the unapologetic and unrepentant sexual predator, Phillip Lee, was "undone" by those pack of man-pleasing, puppet elders in Anaheim at the direct order of Witness Lee. I know of many dear brothers and sisters who left the LC of Lee because of this dastardly act of cowardness and betrayal to the victims. Of all the lowdown, despicable things done by Witness Lee and those puppet elders, this one act stands out as the worst....and let me tell you...that takes some doing.
-
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:15 AM   #82
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Do you think excommunication was sufficient?
NO!

Bible says to rebuke before all, that all may learn and be in fear. (I Tim 5.20)

In the same section, Paul instructs Timothy "not to lay hands or appoint men prematurely because the sins of some men are quite obvious, preceding them to judgment, but the sins of others surface later."

Philip's character and sins were obvious to all the brothers who knew him. By all accounts he was an unsaved reprobate. No spiritual minister would ever allow such a one as Philip to go near the people of God without posted guards. Yet WL promoted him to 2nd in command while he was in Taiwan. Unbelievable! Not just over his printing presses, but over all the workers around the globe!

WL was great at instructing everyone else how to serve in the church, but apparently never applied his teachings to himself.

Yet what disturbs so many of us the most is what WL did to these men of God, these whistleblowers, these ones like John Ingalls who spoke their conscience, acted like real shepherds, and were willing to suffer for righteousness sake. Then WL had new puppet elders appointed in Anaheim who reinstated Philip without repentance.
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:29 AM   #83
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Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the excommunication?
You’ll need to move from interrogation mode to mutual dialogue if you care continue .

Thanks
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:40 AM   #84
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Ohio>”NO!”

Ok, should criminal charges have been filed also? If so, what?

This is where we agree and disagree. I agree that PL should have been excommunicated and I also believe if he committed a crime the police should have been called in. Did he?

If he did not commit a crime then there would be no basis for calling the police into the situation. Did John or Godfred believe a crime was committed? Did the sister allege a crime was committed? If not, why do you allege what none of them do?

Thank about that... why are you so eager to make claims that principles have not made? Please provide some testimony that proves your allegation of rape.

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Old 02-03-2018, 10:50 AM   #85
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Yes, they were.

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?
Philip wasn't in the church anyway ... so excommunication a non-starter.

And wasn't he brought back? Like Watchman Nee ... by Witness Lee?
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:54 AM   #86
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Philip wasn't in the church anyway ... so excommunication a non-starter.

And wasn't he brought back? Like Watchman Nee ... by Witness Lee?
Bro Awareness,

Please elaborate. I don’t understand what you mean by PL wasn’t in the church anyway.

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Old 02-03-2018, 11:00 AM   #87
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Thank about that... why are you so eager to make claims that principles have not made? Please provide some testimony that proves your allegation of rape.

Drake
Why do you keep screaming "RAPE" in every post?
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:03 AM   #88
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Why do you keep screaming "RAPE" in every post?
Because you have made the allegation before.

But today is a new day.... you can clear it up once and for all.. do you believe PL was guilty of rape?

Yes or no?

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Old 02-03-2018, 11:04 AM   #89
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You’ll need to move from interrogation mode to mutual dialogue if you care continue .

Thanks
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Drake, it doesn't look good for you that you don't want to answer this question.

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:18 AM   #90
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Ok, should criminal charges have been filed also? If so, what?
It's obvious from STTIL that the elders in Anaheim and the victims at LSM wanted to keep the matter "in house" and not go to the law. The principles in I Cor. 6, I Tim 5, etc. were apparently on their minds. They really thought that WL would provide "justice," thinking that judgement "begins in the house of God."

Obviously no one at LSM at that time could be considered a "wise" man. (I Cor 6.5)

Paul instructed Timothy concerning church leaders (I Tim 5.21), "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing out of favoritism."

Consider how sober and serious Paul's instruction to Timothy is here. He calls on God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to witness: Timothy must serve without prejudice and without partiality.

This is exactly the opposite of what WL did!

During that entire time, WL treated Ingalls and others with prejudice and treated his boy Philip with partiality.

Did not God and Christ and the chosen angels witness that?
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:20 AM   #91
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Drake, it doesn't look good for you that you don't want to answer this question.

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?
Koinonia,

I have answered many of your questions. I am happy to answer more when you reciprocate and answer mine.

I don’t care what it looks like. I won’t voluntarily participate in what feels like an inquisition.

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Old 02-03-2018, 11:23 AM   #92
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Because you have made the allegation before.

But today is a new day.... you can clear it up once and for all.. do you believe PL was guilty of rape?

Yes or no?

Drake
Where? Let me see it.
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:25 AM   #93
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Ok Ohio. Yours is a moral and biblical argument.

This thread started with the introduction of the idea of criminal charges.

Should criminal charges have been filed?

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Old 02-03-2018, 11:34 AM   #94
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Drake, it doesn't look good for you that you don't want to answer this question.

Was Witness Lee wrong
to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?
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Koinonia,

I have answered many of your questions. I am happy to answer more when you reciprocate and answer mine.

I don’t care what it looks like. I won’t voluntarily participate in what feels like an inquisition.

Drake
Koinonia, this is hilarious, if not frighteningly sad.

For Drake to admit WL was wrong makes him feel like part of an inquisition.
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:36 AM   #95
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Where? Let me see it.
Ohio>“...PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.”

But look, I’ll be fair. You reserve the right to change your mind and to clarify.

Do you believe that PL committed rape?

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Old 02-03-2018, 11:37 AM   #96
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Ok Ohio. Yours is a moral and biblical argument. This thread started with the introduction of the idea of criminal charges. Should criminal charges have been filed?
When Philip Lee molested and abused sisters, paid or volunteer, at LSM ... yes, the police should be called.
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:43 AM   #97
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Ohio>“...PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.”

But look, I’ll be fair. You reserve the right to change your mind and to clarify.

Do you believe that PL committed rape?

Drake
I wasn't there. I have to go by the accounts of witnesses who were there.

We had one sister from Ohio who claimed to be groped by PL. Some would say that was an attempted rape. Wouldn't that have created a scandal?
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:45 AM   #98
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When Philip Lee molested and abused sisters, paid or volunteer, at LSM ... yes, the police should be called.
Then why didn't John or Godfred make that call or drop a dime on PL?
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:46 AM   #99
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Koinonia, this is hilarious, if not frighteningly sad.

For Drake to admit WL was wrong makes him feel like part of an inquisition.
I did not expect Drake to answer the question. He won't, apparently. And that is very sad and very telling.
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:53 AM   #100
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Bro Awareness, Please elaborate. I don’t understand what you mean by PL wasn’t in the church anyway.
He didn't attend meetings. He was the opposite of a burning brother. He preferred alcohol, porno, and messing with the sisters.

Maybe he could be considered in the church because he was in the LSM office ... but not really.

I suppose excommunication meant no more money. And that's a good thing. Why pay a sexual predator?

Does that help? Or did I go too far? Eventually his excommunication was withdrawn. And back on the payroll. That's what happens when you're the ultimate leaders son.
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:57 AM   #101
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I did not expect Drake to answer the question. He won't, apparently. And that is very sad and very telling.
If you did not expect me to answer it then what kind of game are you playing?

You are avoiding my question... why? Unlike you, I actually expect you to reciprocate and answer mine. You don’t want to? No problem, it wasn’t important enough to you to converse.

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Old 02-03-2018, 12:10 PM   #102
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Then why didn't John or Godfred make that call or drop a dime on PL?
Why didn't Witness Lee drop that dime?

Wasn't he the one that constantly denigrated the morals of American culture while extolling Chinese morality?
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:12 PM   #103
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If you did not expect me to answer it then what kind of game are you playing?

You are avoiding my question... why? Unlike you, I actually expect you to reciprocate and answer mine. You don’t want to? No problem, it wasn’t important enough to you to converse.

Drake
No, Drake, it is you who are playing games.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:43 PM   #104
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Maybe he could be considered in the church because he was in the LSM office ... but not really.
This is why I believe John and Ken went to meet with Benson and Ray. The LSM office was in Anaheim, but Phillip didn't meet with the Church in Anaheim. When someone who doesn't meet in your assembly, how can you excommunicate them?
So it was really an LSM matter. In my opinion Benson and Ray already knew about Phillip's history and didn't want to be involved. To touch Phillip would mean to touch his father and that would hinder their ambitions. So they only recourse was to say it's a local matter.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:53 PM   #105
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Why didn't Witness Lee drop that dime? Wasn't he the one that constantly denigrated the morals of American culture while extolling Chinese morality?
You drop a dime when there is a crime.

What was the crime? What do you tell the police? What would the sister tell the police? What would John or Godfred tell them?

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Old 02-03-2018, 02:18 PM   #106
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If you did not expect me to answer it then what kind of game are you playing?
You are avoiding my question... why? Unlike you, I actually expect you to reciprocate and answer mine. You don’t want to? No problem, it wasn’t important enough to you to converse.
Drake, I asked you my question first. Why didn't you answer it?
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:48 PM   #107
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You drop a dime when there is a crime.

What was the crime? What do you tell the police? What would the sister tell the police? What would John or Godfred tell them?

Drake
I really love some of the things our Lord Jesus said:

Matthew 11: 23 "Woe to you, scribes . . . 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat, but drink down the camel."

Our scribe brother Drake has done an excellent job in straining out the gnat of the potential crime issue associated with our sister's sexual abuse; but, I think he's done a much better job of drinking down the camel of not calling the behavior of the perpetrator and his enabling employer as sin.

Just my two cents.
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:16 PM   #108
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HERn,

If challenging the allegation of rape when there was none straining at a gnat then guilty as charged.

I have made my view clear on what I think of PL and his actions. Do not pretend otherwise. But save the rape charge where it applies.

And you should love everything the Lord Jesus says not just selections that are convenient in the moment.

Thanks
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:41 PM   #109
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Ohio>“...PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.”
Hey Drake, please try your best to use the forum Quote function, especially when it's something important like this. I've looked for this quote on this thread but can't find it. In the past you have taken a quote from one poster and attributed it to another (innocent mistake I'm sure) Not saying that this is what you've done here, but could you please go back and use the forum quote function on this one so we all can see exactly where it came from.
Thanks.
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:50 PM   #110
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Hey Drake, please try your best to use the forum Quote function, especially when it's something important like this. I've looked for this quote on this thread but can't find it. In the past you have taken a quote from one poster and attributed it to another (innocent mistake I'm sure) Not saying that this is what you've done here, but could you please go back and use the forum quote function on this one so we all can see exactly where it came from.
Thanks.
Sure. I think this will hyperlink you.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...5&postcount=65

Drake
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Old 02-03-2018, 05:08 PM   #111
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I have heard others express this line of reasoning. Sure PL increased revenues at LSM, but why would WL place PL in charge and then do nothing to prevent his son from potentially destroying his entire ministry and reputation. Placing PL as the "office" contradicted thousands of WL's own teachings.

PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.
Here's my post above from close to 7 years ago. (I'm really amazed that Drake can use the search engine so well, but not the quote button.)

That old post brings up something that has bothered me for years. Like I bolded above, for those who lived thru the LC days of the "New Way," why would WL place PL in charge and then do nothing to prevent his son from potentially destroying his entire ministry and reputation. Placing PL as "The Office" contradicted thousands of WL's own teachings.

This move was hundreds of times worse than mere nepotism, a failed Motorhome business, or milking the saints of God during every training. WL placed a known reprobate in charge of his life's work, and forced the LC's and the workers to submit to him. Why would he do such a thing? Did he not lord it over as the Gentiles do? Why take such a risk? What did he have to gain? Is this just a fallen part of Chinese culture? Establish the Lee dynasty?
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Old 02-03-2018, 05:17 PM   #112
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If challenging the allegation of rape when there was none straining at a gnat then guilty as charged.
Drake please read this excerpt below again from Ingalls STTIL. We just don't know all the details. I wouldn't be so sure that any of the sisters did not feel they were "raped."

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In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!
Sounds to me like the sisters at LSM were subjected to a little more than just a few of Philip's infamous vulgar tirades.
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:39 PM   #113
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HERn, ...And you should love everything the Lord Jesus says not just selections that are convenient in the moment.
Very good advice brother Drake. I shall ask the Lord for grace to do just that.

Best,
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:52 PM   #114
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HERn, If challenging the allegation of rape when there was none straining at a gnat then guilty as charged. I have made my view clear on what I think of PL and his actions. Do not pretend otherwise. But save the rape charge where it applies. And you should love everything the Lord Jesus says not just selections that are convenient in the moment.
Brother Drake, we are not playing verse wars here or games with scripture.

People got hurt! The children of God were stumbled by a ministry!

Should you not rather take sides with the stumbled "least of My brothers," than take sides with ministry officials who may have millstones around their necks?

Have not the lessons of the Bible and history taught you anything?
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:49 AM   #115
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Brother Drake, we are not playing verse wars here or games with scripture.
People got hurt! The children of God were stumbled by a ministry!
Should you not rather take sides with the stumbled "least of My brothers," than take sides with ministry officials who may have millstones around their necks?
Have not the lessons of the Bible and history taught you anything?
Brother Ohio,

These are reasonable and worthy questions. Of course, people got hurt. Many were stumbled. Some in this forum. History is a valuable teacher. I am in tune. I get it.

However, there are significant collateral issues that you don’t see that I do. Not because I’m smarter and you’re dumber. I don’t believe that at all. Rather, it is vantage point. Some examples are:

1) You (the collective you), may have a legitimate objection but then you go too far. You cast off all restraint in your critique. Your passion runs amok. You feed on it and work into a frenzy. Soon the legitimate concern and objection has turned into slander of brothers and sisters without regard for their well being some potentially in danger of losing freedom or their very lives. A haughty spirit, a mocking spirit, dominates the discussions in tone and tenor. You have gone too far.

2) In that environment you (the collective you again) attack every thought that disagrees or presents a different point of view. There is no middle ground with you. Either I agree it is “RAPE” else I am defending the sleazy. Any objections on most topics will predictably and invariably lead to PL. How dare I believe the truth of the minister of the age, how ridiculous that I follow God’s anointing... why, don’t I understand that PL did those things right there in the ministry office? “Toss out the bath water, toss out the baby, and now toss out the bath tub, the bottles, and the cradle!” You have gone too far.

3) Yet, there is more runway.... you do not stop with attacking dissent you now attack the dissenter. It goes something like this: Drake is a dissenter, cast the die, he knows better so he must be purposely deceiving us. Drake willingly defends every evil we cite, every wrongdoing, every mistake. How dare he stumble little ones. We are crusaders for truth and Drake is trying to cover it up. Either that or he is delusional. We have our theories too, we have worked through them a thousand times, we know how things really are, so who does Evangelical think he is showing us alternative views with all those quotes from theologians and Christian ministers? He too, is up to no good. They are LSM plants or else they are violating LSM rules. If so, they are afraid of getting caught by LSM because they would be punished. That’s why they won’t tell us where they live. Again, you go too far but we know what we signed up for in coming to this forum so all is forgiven without solicitation.

4) Which brings us to the described evil of all evils in this forum. LSM. I have recently presented the New Testament scriptural basis for the work of ministry in another thread. I have also stated that the Living Stream Ministry in its function and execution fulfills that role for the local churches on the earth today. I understand you don’t see it that way. Yet, I have personally benefitted from it in that way and so have tens of thousands of brothers and sisters in the local churches. My church life experience is not dependent on the misdeeds of PL. I am not distraught over the failed motor home business. I am delighted that there are serving ones on the earth today who give their lives to put words of life into my hands, who are willing to get on a plane and spend a weekend, a week, a month, or a year, to fellowship our wonderful Christ, who carry on a ministry that will build up the Body of Christ and may contribute to bringing the Lord back in our lifetime. If this ministry does not inspire you that way then find one that does and let your hearts to be big enough to allow the brothers and sisters in the local churches to pursue the Spirit’s leading in their lives. Your criticisms, though perhaps sometimes valid, go too far. If there is a chance of stumbling little ones it rests on your shoulders for those little ones still in the Lords Recovery and those who may be seeking a path to return.

Finally, you might think.. what about the failings, the mistakes, the misdeeds, the bad judgments of Brother Lee, his sons, the coworkers, the elders, etc. ....shouldn’t we broadcast and shout them from the rooftops? You’ve done that for over a decade and if you have done that under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit then you will receive a great reward according to your works. Yet, if your many words and works are not under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, you will not receive a reward, rather the One Who judges righteously will settle matter in that day. It is a fact, not a threat, and when brought into our understanding the BEMA of Christ will keep us from going too far.

As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows.

Drake
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:25 AM   #116
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So much drama, Drake. You remind me of Nancy Pelosi screaming "Armageddon!" every time the Republicans make news.

Drake, you may claim that you "do not follow a man, I follow the anointing," yet the "kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit," and your "righteousness must surpass the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees," or I doubt if your anointing is the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

It's kind of humorous coming from an LSMer that "my critique casts off all restraint." WL and the Blendeds have made it their calling to continually condemn the entire body of Christ. They have an entire publication A&C that critiques all things Christian. You may be disturbed by my posts here, but let me guarantee you that they are merely a drop in the bucket of your endless ministry of condemnation on all of Christianity. It is truly amazing that you have mistaken the haughty spirit and a mocking spirit in your trainings for the anointing.

What you call "the failings, the mistakes, the misdeeds, the bad judgments of Brother Lee, his sons, the coworkers, the elders, etc." I would call a dastardly plot to smear, discredit, slander, and destroy numerous men of God whose only "crimes" were to protect the innocent children of God and speak their conscience on behalf of righteousness. Actually I would say that you are being quite deceptive here by characterizing these actions as mere "failings, mistakes, misdeeds, and bad judgments." And you have been doing this for 30 years, all the while condemning others for bringing up the subject.

So let me get this straight. According to your "standards," when anyone addresses past criminal or salacious activities at LSM, they will be judged by the Lord, but employees of LSM will always get a free pass for their "mistakes" since they are on the "proper graound."

Oh those poor writers of the Bible! How dare they have recorded all of those "failings, mistakes, misdeeds, and bad judgments" of the Patriarchs, Judges, Kings, Prophets, Apostles, etc.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:44 AM   #117
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Ohio>”So let me get this straight. According to your "standards," when anyone addresses past criminal or salacious activities at LSM, they will be judged by the Lord, but employees of LSM will always get a free pass for their "mistakes" since they are on the "proper graound."

Ohio, nothing I said remotely suggests that so you did not get that straight.

However, it is one thing to cite the facts of a situation and quite another to render judgment in that citation. More often than not, your citation ibecomes a reviling accusation against members of the local churches, elders, coworkers, and God’s servants. Will your reviling accusation bring the Lord’s smile and “Well done good and faithful servant”? I don’t think so. Yet, it is not up to me so time will tell.

Drake
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:54 AM   #118
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Finally, you might think.. what about the failings, the mistakes, the misdeeds, the bad judgments of Brother Lee, his sons, the coworkers, the elders, etc. ....shouldn’t we broadcast and shout them from the rooftops? You’ve done that for over a decade and if you have done that under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit then you will receive a great reward according to your works. Yet, if your many words and works are not under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, you will not receive a reward, rather the One Who judges righteously will settle matter in that day. It is a fact, not a threat, and when brought into our understanding the BEMA of Christ will keep us from going too far.

As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows.

Drake
"Over a decade?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake you've only been here a year ... unless of course you are the "reincarnation" of another famous LSMer on this forum.

"A test to your vision?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake why don't you allow any other believers in the body of Christ the same liberties? Why is only your "Recovery" permitted to overlook mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, crimes, and unrighteousness? All in the name of some "vision."
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:59 AM   #119
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"Over a decade?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake you've only been here a year ... unless of course you are the "reincarnation" of another famous LSMer on this forum.

"A test to your vision?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake why don't you allow any other believers in the body of Christ the same liberties? Why is only your "Recovery" permitted to overlook mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, crimes, and unrighteousness? All in the name of some "vision."
But Ohio.... I am not sure what you mean entirely. No man is without fault save One. And I do not advocate overlooking a failure because from them we may learn and be tested. I said citing the facts is one thing but reviling accusations are quite another. I said you may have a legitimate objection but then in adding in judgment you yourself go too far resulting in reviling accusations. That is not overlooking. With you this has been going on for a decade, based on your join date.

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Old 02-05-2018, 07:21 AM   #120
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More...

Complete post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...6&postcount=43

[QUOTE=BlueOrchid;69295]
Hi NeverfreefromLC,
{Virtual hug <3}
I'm so sorry you went through that.

Yes I agree. I went through a similar experience and the guilt and shame was the most intense feeling and such a depressing burden. For me it was a member of the LC as well. I mentally checked out. It didn't make sense to see this person worshipping at the table meeting, while my young young self was thinking how does he get away with it while I have to keep it a secret and try to be normal? It was exhausting to keep that secret.

I didn't feel good enough for a brother in the church life. I now know that it wasn't my shame or guilt, it was the accuser. and I know that satan tries to get a foot hold into our lives from trauma we experience. It's so deeply rooted in us at a young age, but lies are nothing compared to the truth!

I keep hearing stories of sexual abuse covered up in the church... it's always going to be a thing because satan wants to steal kill and destroy. I just wish there was more love and care for those who had been through things. But they won't in an environment where the truth of many other issues has been stifled for decades. I could never understand it, but from all the testimonies on this forum, so many things make sense!
...

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Old 02-05-2018, 09:55 AM   #121
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"As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows." — Drake

Cool... I have the same sense.
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:48 AM   #122
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"As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows." — Drake

Cool... I have the same sense.
Cool? Are you serious? What Philip Lee did, what BenM did, what the Local Church men are continuing to this day is not "cool". There is nothing about this topic that is "cool". I find this attitude of yours totally disgusting and repulsive. These men made no mistakes. They abused these sisters wilfully. Where is their repentance? Where is their restitution for the horrible damage they have done to the Body of Christ, to the church, and to these women? These men did not "stumble." They knew what they were doing and that is hideous sin.

The Lord knows? I know, too. All you have to do is read the Bible.

These sisters who were abused at the hands of Local Church men were not put there for an object lesson for sexual predators in the Local Church to "rebound from a 'stumble' or prevent a stumble'". Do you think these sisters think there was anything COOL about what they experienced? Did you read their testimonies?

Your agreement with Drake is the problem. This is how the cancer in the Local Church perpetuates itself.

Do you think the Bible is "cool"? Maybe you should put more faith in the Bible than in Drake. Here's what the Bible says:


Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Your and Drake's comments are full of great darkness. God have mercy on your souls.

Nell
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:28 AM   #123
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"As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows." — Drake

Cool... I have the same sense.
Hi Steel, welcome to the forum!

Questions. Have you ever read the accounts of the victims of LSM's abuses?

Or do you just believe that LSM like most ministries is good and wholesome?

This would greatly determine the kind of "sense" you have developed over time.
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:04 PM   #124
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Questions. Have you ever read the accounts of the victims of LSM's abuses?
Yes... On a few occasions over many years.

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Or do you just believe that LSM like most ministries is good and wholesome?
If by "ministries" you are referring to the content of the ink published on the paper... In my experience what I've read from the ministry has been good.

If by "ministries" you're referring to the people associated with the content of the ink that is published on the paper, then no, as scripture is clear... Only God is good.

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This would greatly determine the kind of "sense" you have developed over time.
Actually...

The only determination that you could gain regarding my sense of the matter that I have developed over time would either be that given to you by the Lord... Or that contrived by you in and out of your natural man.

And if you were clear about scripture, you would be clear about that.

Hope that helps.
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:30 PM   #125
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Cool? Are you serious? What Philip Lee did, what BenM did, what the Local Church men are continuing to this day is not "cool". There is nothing about this topic that is "cool".
What you've done in your speaking above, Nell... Is try to present a dishonest straw man... Which is quite poor conduct for a believer in Christ Jesus.

I said nor suggested that I was cool with anything regarding Philip Lee or BenM, or even what the Local Church is continuing to this day.

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I find this attitude of yours totally disgusting and repulsive.
And I should care what a person whose own words expose as being dishonest thinks of me.

Nell... I'll tell you what the Lord finds totally disgusting and repulsive... Dishonesty.

And if you were clear on what scripture reveals you'd know this.

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These men made no mistakes. They abused these sisters wilfully. Where is their repentance?
It certainly seems they are guilty as charged.

But their repentance is between them and the Lord.

According to scripture... Our need is to forgive.

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Where is their restitution for the horrible damage they have done to the Body of Christ, to the church, and to these women?
Scripture tells us that God's wheels of justice grind slowly, but finely.

I trust the Lord to gain what He needs to gain.

You should too.

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These men did not "stumble." They knew what they were doing and that is hideous sin.
Based on what I've read, I would think they did.

But if they were born again, their actions were indicative of falling/stumbling back into sin.

And if they were not saved... Their actions were simply those of a unbelievers.

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The Lord knows? I know, too. All you have to do is read the Bible.
I do read scripture... And I certainly know that the Lord knows... When I'm abiding in my spirit, where the Lord dwells one with me, and me one with the Lord.

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These sisters who were abused at the hands of Local Church men were not put there for an object lesson for sexual predators in the Local Church to "rebound from a 'stumble' or prevent a stumble'".
Absolutely.

But tell me... How many "Local Church men" are there in the world... And how many of these have committed this abuse?

I'm asking because you seem to have no problem casting aspersions across a very wide body of believers... In a very general way.

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Do you think these sisters think there was anything COOL about what they experienced?
Not at all.

Which is why I never said nor suggested they would be... Or I was.

But again... I understand why you seem intent on presenting a dishonest straw man.

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Did you read their testimonies?
What was presented on this thread, yes.

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Your agreement with Drake is the problem.
Not for me before the Lord.

And if it is a problem for you... Then you should take it before the Lord.

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This is how the cancer in the Local Church perpetuates itself.
Actually... No.

The cancer that is within the entire body is exactly that which has corrupted it for two thousand years...

And this corruption is exposed in your own dishonest speaking, as exposed in what I've quoted in this comment...

Speaking that is not of Christ.

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Do you think the Bible is "cool"? Maybe you should put more faith in the Bible than in Drake.
I know scripture is very cool.

And the faith that I have in scripture is the very same faith that the Lord has... And actually is... Just as scripture tells us.

And again, if you were clear on what scripture reveals you'd know this.

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Here's what the Bible says...


Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
This is certainly what scripture tells us...

And in your above dishonesty is exposed the evil/darkness that is being referenced.

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Your and Drake's comments are full of great darkness. God have mercy on your souls... Nell
Being born again and therefore eternally saved... God has most certainly had mercy on my soul... And if Drake can say the same... Hallelujah!

As for my comment being full of darkness (I can't speak for Drake)...

Having already exposed yourself as someone who doesn't seem to know the difference between honesty and dishonesty... At this point, your opinion has no value before the Lord.
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:36 PM   #126
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Actually...

The only determination that you could gain regarding my sense of the matter that I have developed over time would either be that given to you by the Lord... Or that contrived by you in and out of your natural man.

And if you were clear about scripture, you would be clear about that.

Hope that helps.
Brother Steel,

You have jumped into a hornet's nest of controversy here. Probably you had no idea.

Let me say in passing, that I have little objection to how any of the elders in any of the local churches decide to love and serve the Lord. That's really none of my business. But should I not be a little honest with others like you about how LSM sent their lawless agents throughout Midwest area local churches a decade ago and divided up every one of them?

Perhaps you know nothing of these unrighteous and divisive activities. Perhaps you were not in the least bit involved. Neither did you witness all the other corruption I and others lived thru back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Personally I believed all the stories WL and LSM presented to us, believing that "ambitious men" were out to destroy LSM, and never was able to learn both sides of the story. I and many others were greatly deceived, and that's why we are on this forum, so that ones like you can make informed decisions about the ministry you are embracing, and more children of God will not be hurt or stumbled.
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Old 02-06-2018, 06:44 AM   #127
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...But their repentance is between them and the Lord.
As far as repentance being between them and the Lord, let's review the scripture ... Witness Lee knew BenM need to repent. Benson, Ray, DonR, DonL and Joe Davis knew it. Ray Graver knew it. The standard for elders are higher. Further, if Witness Lee had followed the scripture and set the standard with his own son and later with BenM, we might not be dealing with this scourge today. Witness Lee clearly feared his own son more than he feared the Lord.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. (Joe Davis, Don Rutledge, Benson Phillips and Don Looper)
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.


So elders are held to a higher standard. Please provide us with an example of *even one* instance of the Local Church excommunicating a sinning brother for *anything* much less sexual abuse of the sisters in the Local Church.

Don Rutledge's post:

Hope: #103
Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all.


I do have an example of a woman who was excommunicated publicly in the 1970's in The Church In Houston whose sin was fornication as a way of life. I was there in the room. It was a definite warning and there was fear among all who were there that night. I will never forget it. And, amazingly, the Elder who spoke in that meeting, excommunicating her, was BenM. Her sin was not between herself and the Lord. It was a church matter.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



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Old 02-06-2018, 07:08 AM   #128
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I've been reviewing this thread, and I'm so far left confused. Somebody help me please.

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale there was a brother I knew but wasn't close to. I didn't get to know him until after leaving the LC.

Turns out he was caught several times in the parking lot doing the nasty with the young daughters of the saints. The girls were underage, but were active participants in the deed. He was dealt with in each case, it was statutory rape, but the law was never called. Why? Because it would have brought public scandal and shame to the church ... and to the Lord.

This matter of public scandal is what motivates the cover up. We see it today with e RCC, who is presently sitting on evidence of sexual crimes upon young boys by declaring the sovereignty of the state of the Vatican. But it happens in churches all across this land, of the Protestant sort too, not just in the local churches.

And no one wants to shame the church. For obvious reasons. No one wants to shame the Lord.

Churches, of course, are full of sinners, so sins are going to happen. And when they happen the reflex of the loyal members is going to be to cover it up ... especially if it was a crime. And who pays the price? The victim.

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that Philip Lee committed rape? Or that other like crimes were covered up?

Have I missed something? I haven't seen that yet.
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Old 02-06-2018, 07:19 AM   #129
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Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?
Because of his position in LSM I think it is very reasonable to say the charge would have been sexual assault. There is a fine line between the two. Both are felonies.
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Old 02-06-2018, 07:48 AM   #130
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Brother Steel,

You have jumped into a hornet's nest of controversy here. Probably you had no idea.
My brother Ohio...

I "...jump into..." hornets nests almost every day as I participate in online forum discussions... And I've been doing so for some almost twenty years.

I mourn this... But I'm not fearful of it... As He who is in me is greater than he who is in any hornet's nest.

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Let me say in passing, that I have little objection to how any of the elders in any of the local churches decide to love and serve the Lord. That's really none of my business.
Well... I'd say that the well-being of the body of Christ should be the most important concern for all born again believer's in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6:10... "So then, as we have the opportunity, let us do what is good toward all, but especially toward those of the household of the faith."

And seeing that scripture tells us that God is after one thing... The built up church, we should most of all care for His body of believers, as this is to...

Psalms 100:2... "Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; Come before His presence with joyful singing."

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But should I not be a little honest with others like you about how LSM sent their lawless agents throughout Midwest area local churches a decade ago and divided up every one of them?
This is the way of the fallen old man... Divide and conquer.

Those who propagated the British Empire exemplified this way.

The folly Roman Catholic religious institution exemplifies this way.

Folly Christianity exemplifies this way.

Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?

Scripture tells us to always be watchful...

Ephesians 6:18... "By means of all prayer and petition, praying at bevery time in spirit and watching unto this in all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints,..."

Colossians 4:2... "Persevere in prayer, watching in it with thanksgiving,..."

And to have the following mindset...

Psalms 16... "Preserve me, O God, for I take refuge in You... I say to Jehovah, You are my Lord; No good have I beyond You;... As for the saints who are on the earth, they are the excellent; All my delight is in them... The sorrows of them who bartered for some other god will be multiplied; Their drink offerings of blood I will not offer, Nor will I take up their names upon my lips... Jehovah is the portion of my inheritance and of my cup; You maintain my lot... The measuring lines have fallen on pleasant places for me; Indeed the inheritance is beautiful to me... I will bless Jehovah, who counsels me; Indeed in the nights my inward parts instruct me... I have set Jehovah before me continually; Because He is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken... Therefore my heart rejoices and my glory exults; Even my flesh dwells securely... For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, Nor let Your Holy One see the pit... You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand there are pleasures forever."

And...

1 Peter 3:14-15... "But even if you suffer because of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not be afraid with fear from them, nor be troubled,... But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, being always ready for a defense to everyone who asks of you an account concerning the hope which is in you,..."

A believer can choose to look at humanity...

Or to look only at Christ Jesus.

Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.

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Perhaps you know nothing of these unrighteous and divisive activities. Perhaps you were not in the least bit involved. Neither did you witness all the other corruption I and others lived thru back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.
I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches.

But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting...

That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?

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Personally I believed all the stories WL and LSM presented to us, believing that "ambitious men" were out to destroy LSM, and never was able to learn both sides of the story.
And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place.

Scriture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good.

I don't.

We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them.

We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.

Hebrews 12:1-2... "Therefore let us also, having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, put away every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us and run with endurance the race which is set before us,... Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down on the right hand of the throne of God."

"...Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith..."

That's it.

Nothing else matters.

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I and many others were greatly deceived,..."
John 16:13... "But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming."

Do you have this Spirit of reality?

If you are a born again eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus... You most certainly do.

And if you do... Then you could have been guided into all reality regarding any situation you encountered.

And the same is true of other born again believers.

Do you not believe this truth that scripture reveals?

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...and that's why we are on this forum, so that ones like you can make informed decisions about the ministry you are embracing, and more children of God will not be hurt or stumbled.
My brother...

According to scripture...

The best things any brother or sister in Christ can do for another brother or sister in Christ... Is to turn to the Lord in their regenerated Spirit and take Christ as their center/source of their life, living, and being.

I don't need you to give me the knowledge you believe you have acquired from past experiences...

I need you to give me the Christ you have gained from past experiences of your abiding and expressing Him.

2 Corinthians 3:18... "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."

Psalms 27:4... "One thing I have asked from Jehovah; That do I seek: To dwell in the house of Jehovah All the days of my life, To behold the beauty of Jehovah, And to inquire in His temple."

Christ... Christ... And more Christ... This is the only true way to "...be well informed..." and avoid being "...hurt or stumbled...".
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Old 02-06-2018, 07:53 AM   #131
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My brother Ohio...
I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches.
Very funny, reminds me of me. Thanks.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:11 AM   #132
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As far as repentance being between them and the Lord, let's review the scripture ... Witness Lee knew BenM need to repent. Benson, Ray, DonR, DonL and Joe Davis knew it. Ray Graver knew it.
We can all absolutely know when repentance is needed...

But repentance is unto the Lord first... Not man first.

Unbelievers ask forgiveness every day from those around them. And though there may be some natural human value in doing so, there is not divine value.

And, according to scripture, what every born again eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus should be seeking is that which has divine value.

Quote:
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The standard for elders are higher.
The requirement for elders is higher... The standard for all believers is Christ Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Further, if Witness Lee had followed the scripture and set the standard with his own son and later with BenM, we might not be dealing with this scourge today. Witness Lee clearly feared his own son more than he feared the Lord.
This is an assumption on your part.

And we should not be so vain as to think we have the ground to make assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. (Joe Davis, Don Rutledge, Benson Phillips and Don Looper)... 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear... 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Absolutely clear.

And if some don't hold to what Paul instructed Timothy to hold to and set a pattern for other believers with... What should we do?

What does scripture tells us is the proper response to these brothers and sisters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
So elders are held to a higher standard.
Again...

Elders are held to a higher requirement...

The standard for all believers in Christ is... Christ.

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Please provide us with an example of *even one* instance of the Local Church excommunicating a sinning brother for *anything* much less sexual abuse of the sisters in the Local Church.
I can't... As I don't know of any.

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Don Rutledge's post:... "Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all."
Yep...

"In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all."

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
I do have an example of a woman who was excommunicated publicly in the 1970's in The Church In Houston whose sin was fornication as a way of life. I was there in the room. It was a definite warning and there was fear among all who were there that night. I will never forget it. And, amazingly, the Elder who spoke in that meeting, excommunicating her, was BenM. Her sin was not between herself and the Lord. It was a church matter.
The church is the Lord's possession.

And the fact that it seems that you don't understand this very basic reality can only lead you to speak in error regarding the things of the church as they relate to the Lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
This...

"...and ye are not your own?"

Is a reality you seem to have little understanding of.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:28 AM   #133
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...Well... I'd say that the well-being of the body of Christ should be the most important concern for all born again believer's in Christ Jesus.
Christ... Christ... And more Christ... This is the only true way to "...be well informed..." and avoid being "...hurt or stumbled...".
Is this brother using the Bible to cover a multitude of sins, and Jesus to enable them?
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:49 AM   #134
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Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?
Scripture tells us to always be watchful...
Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age." For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities. Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled. In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church. Are not church leaders held to higher standards? Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God? Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

Quote:
I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches. But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting ... That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?
Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.
Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery. He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses. In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard. But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others. Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

Quote:
And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place. Scripture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good. We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them. We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.
Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much." Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM. Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

Quote:
John 16:13... "But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming."

Do you have this Spirit of reality? Do you not believe this truth that scripture reveals?
I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

Quote:
My brother... According to scripture... The best things any brother or sister in Christ can do for another brother or sister in Christ... Is to turn to the Lord in their regenerated Spirit and take Christ as their center/source of their life, living, and being.

I don't need you to give me the knowledge you believe you have acquired from past experiences...

I need you to give me the Christ you have gained from past experiences of your abiding and expressing Him.
Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures? Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post. 3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful? And once you know better, are you not also responsible?
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:50 AM   #135
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I pray this doesn't mean child molestation though I fear it does.

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...
I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.
...
I wish you all the best in your journey!
Full post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...2&postcount=38

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Old 02-06-2018, 10:29 AM   #136
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I pray this doesn't mean child molestation though I fear it does.
Full post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...2&postcount=38
Well I know if a very burning brother, who looked to be very given to the church, that was molesting his own daughters. But he wasn't in leadership, and it wasn't found out until the girls grew up and left the LC. I liked the brother. You never know someone.
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Old 02-06-2018, 10:34 AM   #137
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I've been reviewing this thread, and I'm so far left confused. Somebody help me please.
Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?
I don't think anyone is trying to determine that rape was committed. That's a red herring brought forth from our friend Drake. He produced a quote from Ohio from years and years ago on another thread. NOT RELEVANT TO OUR DISCUSSIONS HERE.

What is not in dispute is the fact that Phillip Lee was a sexual predator of the worse kind - one that was placed in a "position of trust". And the person who put Phillip in this person of trust position was none other than his father, Witness Lee. It is a documented fact that Witness Lee was made fully aware of Phillip's deviant behavior going back at least to the mid-70s. Can there be any doubt that it goes back further in time?

There is absolutely no excuse for Witness Lee allowing his son to be placed in a position of trust with women/sisters. The entire ministry of Lee and even the entire Local Church movement was polluted and defiled by these two men - Phillip as the predator and Witness as the enabler. Any blessing that was experienced in the Local Church was in despite of these two men, and not because of them. And we don't have to wait to "let the Lord judge"....The Lord has already judged sin and death. He has already condemned sin in the flesh. Yes, "we will all appear before the judgement seat" at some point in the future. But the church is NOW. The genuine New Testament ministry is NOW. Women and children should be honored and protected NOW...in this life - we don't have to worry about the life to come....God himself will see to it that women and children are honored and protected in his Kingdom.

The church is watching. The world is watching. The public is watching. Satan and his fallen angels are watching. God is watching too. Local Churchers talk a lot about "bringing the Lord back". What will he come back to?

Quote from John Ingalls in Speaking the Truth in Love:
"and all of this happened in what we call 'The Lord's Recovery'.".

Yes, brother John, all this happened in what we call The Lord's Recovery. And what is worse, I greatly fear, is that it is still happening to this very day. May God have mercy on us, his people.
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:42 AM   #138
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Outstanding response bro Untohim.

So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.

I feel for our brother. He's trying to defend the indefensible.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:34 PM   #139
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I wasn't there. I have to go by the accounts of witnesses who were there.

We had one sister from Ohio who claimed to be groped by PL. Some would say that was an attempted rape. Wouldn't that have created a scandal?
Ohio,

Do you believe that PL attempted rape?

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Old 02-06-2018, 12:45 PM   #140
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So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.
Here is my quote from 7 years ago on another thread ...

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I have heard others express this line of reasoning. Sure PL increased revenues at LSM, but why would WL place PL in charge and then do nothing to prevent his son from potentially destroying his entire ministry and reputation. Placing PL as the "office" contradicted thousands of WL's own teachings.

PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.
awareness, note what I actually said, "risking scandals regarding rape and immorality." Is that not what has happened? How many devoted brothers and sisters have left the LC's over the past 30 years due to "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at LSM? Actually I never accused Philip of rape. I wasn't in the room. But ... does not workplace sexual abuse of volunteer sister-help become a "scandal of rape" when the news hits the streets? Rumors always become bigger that life. Coverups only make it even worse.

My point then and now is the same: Why didn't Witness Lee, who knew the degenerate character of his son, place him in charge at LSM over all the elders and workers? Why did he then cover up for Philip, rather than act as a man of God, act with decency, act according to the scriptures, and act according to the law?
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:50 PM   #141
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Outstanding response bro Untohim.

So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.

I feel for our brother. He's trying to defend the indefensible.
Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

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Old 02-06-2018, 01:12 PM   #142
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Drake, it is you who are digging thru the garbage. Don't they call that "dumpster diving." You jumped in head first trying to rescue LSM. It's really sad that you can not distinguish between actual accusations and my dismay that Witness Lee would risk "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry.

Going back to my original 7-year-old comment that Drake is so obsessed with here, I wondered then and now why WL would not just funnel money to his kids? It was a conversation between Don Hardy and Samuel Cheng, W. Nee's brother-in-law, that alerted the readers to WL's long-term guilt concerning his sons. Why not just give them money? Why place Philip in charge at LSM, knowing what he was prone to do with women, thus risking "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry. Scandals which we are still discussing!
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:21 PM   #143
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Drake, you attack Ohio over a non-issue, yet will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication. It is the same way you criticize John Ingalls for not calling the police on Philip Lee--when it was Witness Lee, the minister of the age, who installed his son in the first place, led the cover-up of his sexual indiscretion and abuse over a 10-year period, kept him on the board of directors of LSM, the "work of ministry," and then quarantined Ingalls for not going along with it.

I think your priorities are out of order.
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:08 PM   #144
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Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

Drake
Would that make you feel better...Drake...? ...deciding, once and for all...what word to attach to a woman's ultimate humiliation? Her ultimate violation by the son of the man who she likely respected above all others? You weren't there. You don't get to decide. That you even insist on making it about what Ohio believes is totally perverse.

The women who were his victims know what word to use. They were forced. If it happened to your wife...your mother...your sister...would you be so cavalier?

Just leave it in the garbage pit and walk away.

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Old 02-06-2018, 02:46 PM   #145
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Is this brother using the Bible to cover a multitude of sins, and Jesus to enable them?
Nope... But it sure seems by the gross dishonesty in your speaking regarding your veiled suggestion of what I'm saying that you have no problem holding to and expressing your old fallen man.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:13 PM   #146
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Drake, it is you who are digging thru the garbage. Don't they call that "dumpster diving." You jumped in head first trying to rescue LSM. It's really sad that you can not distinguish between actual accusations and my dismay that Witness Lee would risk "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry.

Going back to my original 7-year-old comment that Drake is so obsessed with here, I wondered then and now why WL would not just funnel money to his kids? It was a conversation between Don Hardy and Samuel Cheng, W. Nee's brother-in-law, that alerted the readers to WL's long-term guilt concerning his sons. Why not just give them money? Why place Philip in charge at LSM, knowing what he was prone to do with women, thus risking "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry. Scandals which we are still discussing!

Ohio,

I have no need to "rescue" LSM. That is silly. Why would that be even needed? Rescue LSM from .....you? You could post 1000 more times on this topic, another 50 years of posting.... and it would not affect anything in the least at LSM. I have made my view clear... I'll repeat again for your benefit: Anything that could be destroyed should be destroyed. No props are needed. No rescue is needed. If it is not a work of ministry of the Lord then it will fall. It will fail. If it is the work of ministry raised up by the Lord then nothing you say or do here will ever affect it.

Rather, if my spirit is provoked it is because I find your reviling and railing allegations and innuendo of rape a lawless piling on. That there was sexual immorality is an awful, terrible, and repulsive thing... that you would heap on criminal allegations of rape in the face of evidence to the contrary is even worse. You appear to take special delight in dancing on the failures of others. Dumpster diving? You have taken up residence in it. Scandals? You decorate them. Obsession? I've never seen anyone so continuously preoccupied with ideas or thoughts about PL as you are. Well brother Ohio, I just hope your own life record is as righteous as you demand of others. I really hope your conduct in life has been free of sin, immorality, and failures. We will be judged according to standard by which we judged others. Our life record will be played to a broad audience someday. Ready for that?

You have had several opportunities to deny the allegation of rape. You didn't. I tried. You refused. The reader can decide now.

And here is an odd inconsistency. You and others claim to have the highest respect for John Ingalls the elder in the church in Anaheim during this time. Yet, Brother John never called the cops... so either he was delinquent, negligent, and complicit in the crime you allege by his inaction or ..... it did not reach the level of a crime. Would the John Ingalls you knew have reported a crime if he believed one was being committed? Yes, I believe he would have. Rather, his estimation was that it was a matter to be dealt with by the church. Did he not indicate that? Why? Because he considered it sin, or immorality, or something of the genre that the elders should deal with. Not the cops. Had he called the cops for something other than a crime, they would have told him the same thing Benson told him. They would have said that he needed to deal with it as it is under his jurisdiction not theirs.

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Old 02-06-2018, 03:26 PM   #147
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Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.
Oneness among the siants is always a good thing my brother.

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Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age."..."
No such designation in scripture.

And if the "...LC members..." did there due diligence regarding their searching the scriptures they would have know this.

Also... Hopefully being born again of the Spirit, and therefore having the Spirit in them to turn to so that the Spirit could reveal the reality of the situation... They would not have had to depend on what others presented Witness Lee as.

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For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities.
Fallen humans do fallen human things.

Read scripture... It says so very clearly.

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Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled.
"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?

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In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church.
Praise the Lord.

Are you not familiar with this scripture verses...

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Or do you just choose to not believe it.

And don't you know that scripture tells us that a believer must suffer even as the Lord suffered... And that we learn (grow with the growth of God) in and through our sufferings?

Surely you know this.

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Are not church leaders held to higher standards?
Those who are put in positions of leadership by the Lord are held to the requirements of their given position.

The standard that they are held to is the same standard all believers are held to... That standard being Christ Jesus.

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Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God?
In Christ, yes.

Not in their natural humanity.

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Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"
Elders of a local church should always carefully consider anything being applied to the duties of their position.

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Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery.
In chapter 6 of the book titled with his name, Isaiah tells us that he found that out.

God is like shining light... And when He comes in, His shining spontaneously exposes the true condition of what it is shining on.

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He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses.
He certainly could... But then scripture tells us that God can take even that which was meant for evil and bring about good.

Try not to be boastful in your fallen humanity my brother.

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In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard.
Wonderful.

But I didn't say or suggest anyone ignore anything... Did I.

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But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others.
Scripture tells us that Satan is a cunning, crafty enemy.

One whom only the Lord is able to be victorious over.

Which is why we should always be found in the Lord at all times.

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Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.
Which I certainly subscribe to... And have said this on these threads.

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Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!
The Lord gives each of us a measure of grace according to His need.

Don't be downcast by what has past... Be uplifted by what must come.

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I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much."
My brother... You are in Christ... His victory is your victory... You are only a failure when you fail to see and enter into this reality... And yet... Even then... It is the life that is in you... His life... That ensures your victory.

And that life cannot be defeated.

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Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."
Yes...

Look at Joseph... His beginning was awful... But his end was wonderful.

It's not how we begin our race my brother... It's how we finish our race.

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Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM.
Each one is responsible for themselves.

Be responsible for yourself before the Lord.

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Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!
I try my brother... And by God's mercy, I have brothers I can fellowship with about all matters as the Lord leads.

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I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.
Amen... Now what is important is how you apply this reality... Will you do so in and for the Lord?

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Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures?
I try to listen to all that a person is telling me.

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Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)
Absolutely.

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For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post.
Witness Lee has been dead for over 20 years. He can speak nothing. Dead people cannot speak.

He is no threat to me.

And as long as I continously seek the Lord, and hold to what scripture tells me, and follow the leading of the Spirit, I'll be walking in the light of God and have fellowship with Him and other believers.

When it comes to his ministry... I am fine with what brother Lee has presented.

As a human... I didn't know him, so I have nothing to say about the brother.

Let the dead bury the dead.

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3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."
For sure... So did Jesus.

But we all have natural ambition my brother... Towards one thing or another, and to one degree or another.

And so, yes... Always keep watch.

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If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful?
Absolutely... But do so in life... By abiding in and speaking out of your regenerated spirit.

Not in death, by speaking in and out of the offended feelings of your fallen natural man.

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And once you know better, are you not also responsible?
My brother... Don't think to know what I know.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:29 PM   #148
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Local Churchers talk a lot about "bringing the Lord back". What will he come back to?
Exactly what scripture tells us... His builded bride.

Do you know what this bride looks like?

You should.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:47 PM   #149
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Exactly what scripture tells us... His builded bride.

Do you know what this bride looks like?

You should.
If I were still attending LSM's trainings, then I would believe the builded bride looks like thousands of little "Witness Lee tape recorders" spouting off his footnotes on demand.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:47 PM   #150
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Would that make you feel better...Drake...? ...deciding, once and for all...what word to attach to a woman's ultimate humiliation? Her ultimate violation by the son of the man who she likely respected above all others? You weren't there. You don't get to decide. That you even insist on making it about what Ohio believes is totally perverse.

The women who were his victims know what word to use. They were forced. If it happened to your wife...your mother...your sister...would you be so cavalier?

Just leave it in the garbage pit and walk away.

Nell
Nell,

I have been an advocate and supporter of your call to action. If a crime was committed call the cops. Drop a dime. Anonymously if needed. I even suggested that the labor board be contacted... start a civil suit which has a lower bar to clear to prove guilt. I am a champion of your main point. Blow the whistle long and loud.

However, in the particular examples given, I have to trust the judgement in this scenario of the elders. Repulsive, yes. Criminal? Not proven. Else they would have called the cops. You have to allow that the suggestion of force is not proof of it. It is a sad reality that not every accusation or allegation is to be believed as is. Someone claims they were forced, maybe they were. Sometimes it is consensual as the first instance indicated that Max addressed. Maybe it was pressure from a manager, that too is criminal. But it has to be proved. Consensus in this forum is not proof. I believe your personal account, no reason not to. So this is not about that.

But if in doubt... make the call. Do something. I am for that. I agree with your main point. It should be reported. Let the authorities sort it out. Prosecute. Civil suit.

But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us.

Drake
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:17 PM   #151
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Rather, if my spirit is provoked it is because I find your reviling and railing allegations and innuendo of rape a lawless piling on.
Drake, what is reviling is the way Witness Lee treated John Ingalls, slander him before all of his brothers and sisters. Railing allegations and innuendo are what filled the despicable book Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Rape is what the husband of that molested sister at LSM thought of, which is why he went to get a gun and shoot Philip Lee. Piling on is what Lee and the Blendeds have done for years to those who cry out for righteousness.

Hey Drake, why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?

Let me repeat. Why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?

And here is an odd inconsistency. You and others claim to have the highest respect for Witness Lee, the acting God, the Minister of the Age, during this time period. Yet, Witness Lee constantly promised the elders that he would take care of his son. He should have called the cops, but he did not. He should have fired his son, but he did not. He should have taken the proper action any minister of the Lord would take, but he did not ... so either he was dishonest, delinquent, negligent, or complicit in the very same crimes committed by his son Philip.

Why should John Ingalls have reported a crime at LSM months before he learned about it? He did not work at LSM. Philip Lee never met in the church he shepherded. Why did Benson Philips and Ray Graver do nothing, yet they knew all about what happened? What about all the other employees at LSM? Why did they do nothing? They too are complicit of PL's crimes. Why did Kangas and Marks say nothing? Robichaux just took over Ingalls' translation work, so he had a financial motive to remain silent. The rest of LSM's employees faced termination if they spoke up, yet they did nothing on behalf of that little sister.

Shame on the entire LSM organization! They exalt man and not God. They fear man and not God. One day they will all face His judgment seat for their action and inaction.

Well brother Drake, I just hope your own life record is as righteous as you demand of others. You are part of a ministry which daily condemns the entirety of Christianity. I really hope your conduct in life has been free of sin, immorality, and failures. Has not your abundant pride preceded your fall? You will be judged according to the standard by which you judge others. Your life record will be played to a broad audience someday. Ready for that?

I say are you ready for that?
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Old 02-06-2018, 05:41 PM   #152
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Ohio>"Let me repeat. Why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?"


Ohio,

I find it amusing how you latch onto a question that you think is the gotcha of all gotchas... Koinomia has been wringing his hands wanting me to answer this question.... He should funnel all his questions through you so I will answer them ... ... until he starts acting like a brother wanting to have a conversation and less like an inquisitor demanding answers to his entrapment questions.

Ready? Sit down... here comes the answer! Russians! Bombshell!

The answer to that question is easier from my chair than it was from the chairs for those who had to make that decision.

Brother Lee should not have opposed his son's excommunication.

ok?

But, that was not my decision and it was not your decision, was it? The difference is that you are obsessed with it....or rather it possesses you. The failure of others is the basis of your church life and by all indicators your christian life as well. Your words express all that is in your heart. Every post reveals your angst, your anger, your hatred toward brothers in the Lord. Rather, you should know that every man, save One, is a failure at best. You, me, Brother Lee are the same in that way. Brother Lee was a servant of the Lord, but at the most fundamental level he was a brother in the Lord. His misjudgement in this matter of PL does not negate the anointing of his ministry. When I read the Life-study of Genesis or Christ Vs. Religion for example, I do not think "oh, he defended his son, I will throw this all away". What an insult that would be to the Lord's ministry and His anointing.

Rather, all failures are a test to the vision the Lord gave me. It is not dependent on any man. If it is then it should vanish. You mocked following the anointing. But, unless you follow the anointing you will fall into error. I think you followed a man, Witness Lee, at some time in your life... and when he stumbled, you stumbled. You were wrong to follow a man then and you are more wrong to mock following the anointing now. I do not follow a man, never have since coming into the Lord's Recovery. I do not feel any need to defend LSM. Not an inkling. I follow the anointing and today that anointing is on the ministry that produces local churches to build up the Body of Christ and bring the Lord back. If the anointing moves I will by His mercy and grace recognize it and follow it.

You have your reasons for feeling the way you do but those reasons have boxed you in. Every conversation is the same now.... like being caught in an infinite loop... but not infinite because when the Lord comes back all your harsh words will end. Then you will be released.

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Old 02-06-2018, 07:37 PM   #153
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Ohio,

I find it amusing how you latch onto a question that you think is the gotcha of all gotchas... Koinomia has been wringing his hands wanting me to answer this question.... He should funnel all his questions through you so I will answer them ... ... until he starts acting like a brother wanting to have a conversation and less like an inquisitor demanding answers to his entrapment questions.

Ready? Sit down... here comes the answer! Russians! Bombshell!

The answer to that question is easier from my chair than it was from the chairs for those who had to make that decision.

Brother Lee should not have opposed his son's excommunication.

ok?
Thank you. Now was that so hard?
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:17 PM   #154
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My point then and now is the same: Why didn't Witness Lee, who knew the degenerate character of his son, place him in charge at LSM over all the elders and workers? Why did he then cover up for Philip, rather than act as a man of God, act with decency, act according to the scriptures, and act according to the law?
Why? I don't know. But it's obvious to me that what Lee expected of us, he wasn't welling to give the same ... to his own ministry. It must not have been worth as must he sold it as. Or he would have been as all in as we were ... for his ministry ... his own ministry.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:26 PM   #155
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But, that was not my decision and it was not your decision, was it? The difference is that you are obsessed with it....or rather it possesses you. The failure of others is the basis of your church life and by all indicators your christian life as well. Your words express all that is in your heart. Every post reveals your angst, your anger, your hatred toward brothers in the Lord.

Drake
Hi Drake, are you like some internet pseudo-shrink?

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

I simply refuse to put up with your LC hypocrisy, and you obviously are not used to that.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:46 PM   #156
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Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

Drake
Thanks for clearing this up, or trying to anyway. Sorry, but I don't see a claim of rape either. And what I mean by rape is forced unconsensual sex.

But some could mean something else by rape, such as uninvited unwanted groping. That is, I suppose, a kind of rape. Unwanted force is at play.

But the testimony from Speaking The Truth in Love doesn't say any of that.

I don't know. Did the sister do things she didn't really want to do? But since it was Witness Lee's son, who was clearly in the inner circle of the leader she was giving her life to, she went along with it? Then was stricken by her conscience, and then came to the elder about it?

Unless there's contradictory evidence, that's one possible explanation for what went on in the LSM office.

I guess we need to define what we mean by rape.
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Old 02-06-2018, 09:17 PM   #157
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Thank you. Now was that so hard?
Not a bit. If you were paying attention to my previous posts you would know what my view would be. It was only your darkened understanding that prevents you from seeing the obvious.

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Old 02-06-2018, 09:29 PM   #158
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Hi Drake, are you like some internet pseudo-shrink?

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

I simply refuse to put up with your LC hypocrisy, and you obviously are not used to that.
Don’t need to be a shrink to see this serious case of obsession. My goodness Ohio. You cannot carry on a conversation without spewing the same rhetorical nonsense. You refuse to put up with common sense and civil discourse.... I suppose you are not used to that.
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Old 02-06-2018, 10:03 PM   #159
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Awareness>”But the testimony from Speaking The Truth in Love doesn't say any of that. “

Right, Awareness.

Look, we all agree with Nell’s main point. Forced sex of any type is a crime. Report it. Workplace harassment? Report it. File a civil suit.

Adultery, fornication, immorality.... it’s with parents, spouses, elders, etc. it is terrible but law enforcement won’t do a thing about that until it turns into a crime... a law enforcement issue.

But don’t call it a crime when there is no evidence it’s a crime. I say, call it what it is so the right people can deal with it. All the evidence suggests that is how JI saw it.. not a matter for the police.

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Old 02-07-2018, 12:14 AM   #160
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Not a bit. If you were paying attention to my previous posts you would know what my view would be. It was only your darkened understanding that prevents you from seeing the obvious.

Drake
Drake, this is not fair. You say that my query ("Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?") was an "entrapment question." Yet, most anyone else would consider it completely simple and straightforward (and thank you for answering it).

A follow-up would be: "If Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication, was he also wrong for quarantining John Ingalls?" But don't feel entrapped; don't worry--this time it's rhetorical.
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Old 02-07-2018, 02:58 AM   #161
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Don’t need to be a shrink to see this serious case of obsession. My goodness Ohio. You cannot carry on a conversation without spewing the same rhetorical nonsense. You refuse to put up with common sense and civil discourse.... I suppose you are not used to that.
Drake, Obviously the whole sordid history of Philip Lee as the CEO, as "The Office," of LSM strikes a nerve with you. You really need to come clean and get over that. Usually outbursts of anger like yours over past events indicates a guilty conscience. I would encourage you to go to the Lord about what part you played during that awful period when Philip Lee ran LSM with a rod of iron, bringing all the workers, all the elders, and all the LC's under total subjection. (Perhaps you also had a hand in the coverup efforts too.)

Here is some encouragement from the Apostle John, "if you confess your sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:26 AM   #162
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-1

And that last post is the perfect example of what I meant.

You got it bad, bro. Real bad.
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Old 02-07-2018, 05:05 AM   #163
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-1

And that last post is the perfect example of what I meant.

You got it bad, bro. Real bad.
Did you already forget how to use the "QUOTE" button, or are you purposely snubbing the moderator's requests?

Drake, you still have not told us what part you played in the coverup. You know my history, where I am from, and my "psychological state," but we know nothing about you. What are you hiding? What was your role with LSM during the New Way and its aftermath?

Since you have *finally* admitted that it was wrong for Witness Lee to oppose the excommunication of his son Philip, then was Witness Lee also wrong for Quarantining John Ingalls?
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Old 02-07-2018, 05:53 AM   #164
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Nell,

I have been an advocate and supporter of your call to action. If a crime was committed call the cops. Drop a dime. Anonymously if needed. I even suggested that the labor board be contacted... start a civil suit which has a lower bar to clear to prove guilt. I am a champion of your main point. Blow the whistle long and loud.

However, in the particular examples given, I have to trust the judgement in this scenario of the elders. Repulsive, yes. Criminal? Not proven. Else they would have called the cops. You have to allow that the suggestion of force is not proof of it. It is a sad reality that not every accusation or allegation is to be believed as is. Someone claims they were forced, maybe they were. Sometimes it is consensual as the first instance indicated that Max addressed. Maybe it was pressure from a manager, that too is criminal. But it has to be proved. Consensus in this forum is not proof. I believe your personal account, no reason not to. So this is not about that.

But if in doubt... make the call. Do something. I am for that. I agree with your main point. It should be reported. Let the authorities sort it out. Prosecute. Civil suit.

But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us.

Drake
Drake,

That's not your call.

Don't make this issue about you and what you think should have been done 40 years ago. Witness Lee is dead. As far as we know, Lee carried his sin with him to his multi-million dollar grave.

What about today? There are predators in the Local Church TODAY who are sexually abusing women who are vulnerable to Lee's "ministry". There is sin in the camp at the expense of women. You may believe you have hit on some kind of noble perspective that involves clarity on the use of the word "rape", I daresay every woman reading this forum is rolling her eyes in disbelief. Do you think Philip Lee's victims believe they were sexually abused, or, raped? Do you think it matters to them what words YOU use to define what happened to THEM?

"But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us." Really??? What a joke. There IS NO BAR in the Local Church. In the Local Church it's open season on women. Anything goes. Even if a predator gets caught...no problem. "Cover the brothers."

This forum has plenty on Lee's teaching on women...put them in their place...shut them up and do what they're told...ad nauseum. How convenient. What a fertile environment for a sick sexual predator.

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

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Old 02-07-2018, 06:01 AM   #165
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Drake, this is not fair. You say that my query ("Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?") was an "entrapment question." Yet, most anyone else would consider it completely simple and straightforward (and thank you for answering it).

A follow-up would be: "If Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication, was he also wrong for quarantining John Ingalls?" But don't feel entrapped; don't worry--this time it's rhetorical.
Koinonia,

Wait, not fair? Let me clarify why your questions are not simple and straightforward and why they are entrapment questions.

Of course you have another question. That was the purpose of the last one! You have several more to follow. Your questions are like bird crumbs that lead to a box propped up by a stick with a string attached to the stick. Oh my, what’s that all about?

It is craft on your part. If Drake answers this way then you’ll ask that ... but if he answers that way you’ll accuse him of that..... ad nauseam. That is why you won’t answer my questions to you. Yours are leading questions like a lawyer who insists “Mr. Drake, just answer the question! I’m asking the questions here!”

But, no worries. I don’t feel entrapped because it is not that clever. It is kinda cute actually but not funny because the topics are so serious. I don’t find that kind of engagement meaningful or beneficial and since that is the mode you are operating in I put you on my ignore list. If you ever want to have a dialogue then I am always willing to converse with a brother.

Thanks
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:15 AM   #166
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Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell
Sorry Nell. Cant let you skate on that one no matter how much I agree with your main point.

Post the evidence of the rape you allege. Specifically. I do NOT know it’s happening.
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:15 AM   #167
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Koinonia,

Wait, not fair? Let me clarify why your questions are not simple and straightforward and why they are entrapment questions.

Of course you have another question. That was purpose of the last one! You have several more to follow. Your questions are like bird crumbs that lead to a box propped up by a stick with a string attached to the stick. Oh my, what’s that all about?

It is craft on your part. If Drake answers this way then you’ll ask that ... but if he answers that way you’ll accuse him of that..... ad nauseam. That is why you won’t answer my questions to you. Yours are leading questions like a lawyer who insists “Mr. Drake, just answer the question! I’m asking the questions here!”

But, no worries. I don’t feel entrapped because it is not that clever. It is kinda cute actually but not funny because the topics are so serious. I don’t find that kind of engagement meaningful or beneficial and since that is the mode you are operating in I put you on my ignore list. If you ever want to have a dialogue then I am always willing to converse with a brother.

Thanks
Drake
Drake, I am willing to answer most any question you ask of me--but to make it work, you have to answer mine too. And since you did, I'll give you yours:

Quote:
Do you think excommunication was sufficient?
No. However, to me--it is almost a moot point, as the Anaheim elders were not responsible. For whatever reason, you want me to fault the Anaheim elders for not doing enough. And yet you believe--presumably--that Witness Lee was right to quarantine them for involving themselves at all. This does not make sense.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:49 AM   #168
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Thread is back open
PLEASE ADDRESS THE ISSUES AT HAND AND AVOID GETTING PERSONAL.
IT IS THE VICTIMS THAT DESERVE CIVIL DISCOURSE HERE, SO LET'S ALL TRY TO REMEMBER THIS WHEN POSTING.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PRESSING OR EVEN INQUIRING ABOUT A POSTER'S IDENTITY, AFFILIATIONS OR LOCATION.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING ANYTHING PERSONAL.

-
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Old 02-08-2018, 11:51 AM   #169
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"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?
I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches. Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.
The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.
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Old 02-08-2018, 11:59 AM   #170
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My issue with the LRC is not PL, or Ben M., etc. An individual who sins does not destroy the entire assembly, particularly since the vast majority of saints in the LRC were unaware and uninvolved in PL's sins or BM's, etc.

My issue is with the way in which the LRC dealt with the sins, especially those that did become aware.

What did WL do when he first became aware of PL's sins? How did he act to protect saints serving in the LSM? How did he work with PL for him to deal with his sins? Regardless of how you want to cut it the evidence strongly supports the assertion that WL worked to cover up his son's sins, to slander and discredit any who might know of his sins, and to excommunicate any who would stand for righteousness.

Likewise I don't have an issue with JI and the other elders. They were clearly in a very difficult situation, between a rock and a hard place. If any is going to judge them it should be the Lord. Perhaps they could have done a better job, I don't know. What I do know is they took this seriously and acted to deal with the sin.

My issue is with the puppet elders who took their place and wrote an apology letter to PL because "it pleased WL".

In the world if a person in authority like the FBI or College President, or key Olympic official is aware of allegations of misconduct they need to take responsibility. You can claim that you are not responsible right up to the moment you learned of the allegations. From that moment on you will be held accountable for how you act. If further misconduct takes place after you have learned of the allegations then that may be held to your account.

I have not heard any evidence that WL or other key elders were involved in sexual misconduct, however I have heard evidence that their actions after learning were not without reproach.

In this recent Olympic scandal I am most impressed with one girl who was 17 when she made her allegations. It took 14 years for others to finally do their job and convict this guy, but she stood her ground for 14 years.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:18 PM   #171
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If I were still attending LSM's trainings, then I would believe the builded bride looks like thousands of little "Witness Lee tape recorders" spouting off his footnotes on demand.
Or so you think you would.

Abiding in one's natural man will cause any of us to see things according to our offended feelings.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:34 PM   #172
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I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.
I was clear on that.

But my response was focused on "...being shunned and expelled..." from what?

A particular meeting of believers in the local church (local church being all believers in an area)?

Whose problem would that be if before the Lord those who were "...being shunned and expelled..." were actually standing in the Lord... And those doing the shunning and expelling were not doing so in the Lord?

Not mine if it were related to me.

I'd simply say "Amen, Lord... You open doors and You close doors... Lord, I'll wait on You to open another door... And do so praising You and rejoicing in You."

People have problems with being shunned and expelled because they are holding to their vanity and not Christ.

Matthew 5:10... "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens."

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

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Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches.
Well... Welcome to the way of the fallen man that corrupts us all... Us all being all of us born again believers in Christ.

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Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.
Oh boohoo.

Suck it up, take the way of the cross... Be brought into resurrection life... And rejoice all the way through the next door that the Lord opens for you.

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The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.
And why?

Because they have been following their own natural preference/affinity... And not the Lord.

Which is why the Lord comes in and removes believers from their familiar, comfortable, preferred environments.

Shoot...

If I could I'd just rent the building next door to the building I was just escorted from and carry on with the Lord without loosing a step... Make it easy for anyone else who suffers the same... Same ministry speaking... Same recovered way... With the hope that the Lord would in His mercy and grace save myself and any I meet with from becoming religious also.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:38 PM   #173
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Drake, I am willing to answer most any question you ask of me--but to make it work, you have to answer mine too. And since you did, I'll give you yours:
No. However, to me--it is almost a moot point, as the Anaheim elders were not responsible. For whatever reason, you want me to fault the Anaheim elders for not doing enough. And yet you believe--presumably--that Witness Lee was right to quarantine them for involving themselves at all. This does not make sense.
Koinonia,

Of course, the elders are responsible for the administration in the local church. Scripture is clear on that point.

If crimes were being committed then of course, they should have done more.

If immorality, sin, and other such awful things were happening then they were responsible to address it in their office as elders..... but if no crime then it would have been dealt with according to their judgement.

If this was the only reason they were quarantined then I do not think they should have been. Was this the only reason John Ingalls was quarantined? What was the stated reason? Let's have a look and we can agree or disagree.

Drake
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