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Old 07-31-2017, 08:22 PM   #1
Koinonia
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Default New Book by Henry Hon

Henry Hon, former LC elder in Berkeley, CA (and brother of LC coworker Paul Hon), has published a book: ONE: Unfolding God's Eternal Purpose from House to House.

In this interview with Frank Viola, Hon describes his experience leaving the LC:

Quote:
While I was actively enjoying the body life from house to house, I was still involved in an organized church group. This church was founded on the basis of practicing the oneness of the body; therefore, I was attracted because they lifted up Christ and were receiving all believers as the one body. But their teaching also included accusation and condemnation of institutional churches. As this church evolved, their teaching of unity in the body became one of having a unique leadership structure, an exclusive ministry led by specific teachers, and a singular way to practice the oneness. My assembling from house to house in the complete freedom of the Spirit became conflicting with their way to practice oneness. Due to my unwillingness to submit to their direction, I was told that I was no longer part of building up the body. They directed and influenced believers that we were fellowshipping with to stop coming to our home gatherings. This experience caused me to reexamine the Scripture to improve my understanding of the oneness of the body, including the practices and manifestation of this oneness.

Due to confusion caused by the opposition from the leadership of this church, the home gatherings that I initiated were greatly disrupted. Our family with just a few other believers started again in a small home gathering. We started to grow again with new and young believers, and I started to proactively go out to greet, to embrace in fellowship, other believers and groups that are not in our small circle of relatedness. As I was enjoying expanding my circle of fellowship, I received fresh insight to Romans 16 with strong confirmation. In that chapter, believers were commanded to go out to greet other disparate believers to expand the fellowship in order to manifest the oneness of the body.
Hon also has a website for his ministry: ONE Body Life: Reset to ONE; Revival Next!
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: New Book by Henry Hon

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Henry Hon: Most Christians are concerned mainly with what God can do for them, their own interest. As long as they are saved to go to heaven and God blesses them, then they are quite satisfied. God’s eternal purpose is concerning what God is after, His interest, and what is on His heart. Therefore, most Christians are not interested in such a topic if they don’t think it can affect them or benefit them directly.

On the other hand, there is a longing within every Christian, a desire to know what their purpose is. They want to know what God has in store for them. Therefore, “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren sold over 30 million copies. In his book, Mr. Warren did not unveil the highest revelations concerning God’s eternal purpose as books such as “From Eternity to Here” by Frank Viola. So, the reader of the Purpose Driven Life didn’t really receive the real understanding concerning God’s eternal purpose other than what most have already understood, but presented in a more concise manner. There was not the kind of fresh and in-depth revelation as in Mr. Viola’s book.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/eternalpurpose/
Certain talk, such as what is seen in the above quote makes me cringe. By that I mean generalizations such as "most Christians are mainly concerned with what God can do for them." Or where it is stated that Rick Warren’s book doesn't "unveil the highest revelation" but Frank Violas books do. That right there is enough to keep me from reading Mr. Hon's book.

I'm not out to criticize, but it seems that with some who have left or been purged from the LC, there is a notion that all is really needed is a reboot of the same old themes. In the links provided, I see certain language present such as "body life", "oneness", etc. It leaves me wonder whether the LC connotation of those words/phrases is intended or not.

Also, I’m not against the house church movement or what they’re seeking to accomplish, however, I tend to question the stated importance home gatherings of vs. what is found in mainstream Christianity. Where I’m from, the LC leaders were nothing short of obsessed with WL’s “new way” ministry, specifically his talk about the home gatherings. From my own experience in that kind of setting, the presentation of home gatherings as being some sort of secret formula to accomplishing God’s goal, always seemed too good to be true (and it was).
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Old 08-01-2017, 02:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: New Book by Henry Hon

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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
I'm not out to criticize, but it seems that with some who have left or been purged from the LC, there is a notion that all is really needed is a reboot of the same old themes. In the links provided, I see certain language present such as "body life", "oneness", etc. It leaves me wonder whether the LC connotation of those words/phrases is intended or not.
Why is it when Christians become so obsessed with oneness, they can no longer fellowship with those they are with, and must separate ("divide?") themselves off to "fulfill God's eternal purpose" for the "one" body of Christ? Nee and the Exclusives had to part ways for the oneness. Lee left all of Christianity for the oneness. The Blendeds dumped Brazil Dong and Midwest Chu for the oneness. And here Henry Hon must leave his Blended brothers for the oneness. It's always for the oneness. And God's eternal purpose.

In his interview with Viola, Henry Hon said this of his LC experience ...
Quote:
Additionally, though I had received the vision of the oneness of believers, I was frustrated in its actual practice: it wasn’t happening. While church groups that grew out of the Jesus Movement were typically contrary to the traditions and divisiveness of mainline denominations, they also competed amongst themselves. Being in such a group, we expected Christians to leave their churches and groups to join us if they, too, saw the vision of God’s purpose. Needless to say, that didn’t work well; rather, it produced even more divisions.
Obviously Hon tries to hide his association with Lee and the Blendeds, but here we see it described ...
Quote:
While I was actively enjoying the body life from house to house, I was still involved in an organized church group. This church was founded on the basis of practicing the oneness of the body; therefore, I was attracted because they lifted up Christ and were receiving all believers as the one body. But their teaching also included accusation and condemnation of institutional churches. As this church evolved, their teaching of unity in the body became one of having a unique leadership structure, an exclusive ministry led by specific teachers, and a singular way to practice the oneness. My assembling from house to house in the complete freedom of the Spirit became conflicting with their way to practice oneness. Due to my unwillingness to submit to their direction, I was told that I was no longer part of building up the body. They directed and influenced believers that we were fellowshipping with to stop coming to our home gatherings. This experience caused me to reexamine the Scripture to improve my understanding of the oneness of the body, including the practices and manifestation of this oneness.
Sounds to me like our favorite Blendeds at LSM went and quarantined brother Hon.

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Old 08-01-2017, 08:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: New Book by Henry Hon

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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
Certain talk, such as what is seen in the above quote makes me cringe. By that I mean generalizations such as "most Christians are mainly concerned with what God can do for them." Or where it is stated that Rick Warren’s book doesn't "unveil the highest revelation" but Frank Violas books do. That right there is enough to keep me from reading Mr. Hon's book.

I'm not out to criticize, but it seems that with some who have left or been purged from the LC, there is a notion that all is really needed is a reboot of the same old themes. In the links provided, I see certain language present such as "body life", "oneness", etc. It leaves me wonder whether the LC connotation of those words/phrases is intended or not.

Also, I’m not against the house church movement or what they’re seeking to accomplish, however, I tend to question the stated importance home gatherings of vs. what is found in mainstream Christianity. Where I’m from, the LC leaders were nothing short of obsessed with WL’s “new way” ministry, specifically his talk about the home gatherings. From my own experience in that kind of setting, the presentation of home gatherings as being some sort of secret formula to accomplishing God’s goal, always seemed too good to be true (and it was).
I more or less agree with you and had the same impression. But we should also give him some credit. Think of how disruptive it must have been for him--a prominent elder in a prominent LC--to break ties and start to feel his own way. He's on the journey.

I can only imagine how he is being characterized and slandered now. Ambitious, charismatic, always doing his own thing, a work within the work, attracting people to follow after himself, nothing new, everything from the ministry etc., etc.
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:03 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
I more or less agree with you and had the same impression. But we should also give him some credit. Think of how disruptive it must have been for him--a prominent elder in a prominent LC--to break ties and start to feel his own way. He's on the journey.

I can only imagine how he is being characterized and slandered now. Ambitious, charismatic, always doing his own thing, a work within the work, attracting people to follow after himself, nothing new, everything from the ministry etc., etc.
I don't know anything about him besides what I read in this thread. Was he well-known in the LC outside of where he is from?

The thing that I find interesting about all of this is that a practice of home meetings is something Lee taught and emphasized. So for someone to get 'quarantined' over organizing relatively small gatherings in homes, it makes the inevitable LC accusation of him being 'ambitious' all the more absurd.
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:23 PM   #6
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Why is it when Christians become so obsessed with oneness, they can no longer fellowship with those they are with, and must separate ("divide?") themselves off to "fulfill God's eternal purpose" for the "one" body of Christ? .
Good point Ohio. I don't know Hon in the least. Reading his website I agree he's seems to be riding on the "God's Eternal Purpose," and "oneness" schtick. But he doesn't seem to be capitalizing on his ministry on his website. Maybe he's taking a loss leader while ramping up, but his book sells for less than $4.00. And it's not covered up with marketing like Hank Hanegraaff's site.
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: New Book by Henry Hon

Why isn't this the case of a man thinking he can do the same sort of thing Lee did but do it better himself? why is it not an example of a work within a work? reinventing the wheel?
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:10 PM   #8
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I don't know anything about him besides what I read in this thread. Was he well-known in the LC outside of where he is from?

The thing that I find interesting about all of this is that a practice of home meetings is something Lee taught and emphasized. So for someone to get 'quarantined' over organizing relatively small gatherings in homes, it makes the inevitable LC accusation of him being 'ambitious' all the more absurd.
Berkeley is a fairly large LC with a well-known campus work. Henry Hon was the "lead elder" there for many years. Very involved in the student work, home meetings, perfecting trainings, etc.
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:25 PM   #9
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Why isn't this the case of a man thinking he can do the same sort of thing Lee did but do it better himself? why is it not an example of a work within a work? reinventing the wheel?
Sorry, but--who cares?
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:36 PM   #10
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Sorry, but--who cares?
I was wondering the same thing given no one seems to know who he is.
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Old 08-02-2017, 02:51 AM   #11
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I was wondering the same thing given no one seems to know who he is.
Most people have never heard of Witness Lee either. Who knows--maybe Hon is the current Minister of the Age.
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Old 08-02-2017, 05:31 AM   #12
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I was wondering the same thing given no one seems to know who he is.
Back in the days of the New Way, his brother Paul Hon was a rising star. Is he an official Blended brother yet?

Since Henry worked a job to support himself, his influence could never spread beyond his locality. Only LSM approved speakers can speak outside their LC.

Obviously Henry never wanted to compromise his faith nor be brought under the subjection his brother was.
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:57 AM   #13
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Most people have never heard of Witness Lee either. Who knows--maybe Hon is the current Minister of the Age.
If he is, as far as I'm concerned, that disqualifies him altogether. The idea that there is a MOTA in modernity is a cockamamie idea cooked up by megalomaniacs.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:51 AM   #14
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If he is, as far as I'm concerned, that disqualifies him altogether. The idea that there is a MOTA in modernity is a cockamamie idea cooked up by megalomaniacs.
It was a joke.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
I more or less agree with you and had the same impression. But we should also give him some credit. Think of how disruptive it must have been for him--a prominent elder in a prominent LC--to break ties and start to feel his own way. He's on the journey.

I can only imagine how he is being characterized and slandered now. Ambitious, charismatic, always doing his own thing, a work within the work, attracting people to follow after himself, nothing new, everything from the ministry etc., etc.
One more descriptive word that would be characterized of such brothers is individualistic. Of course I tend to see it more as an unwillingness to sacrifice principles for the group.
I agree Koinonia, he is on a journey. As we have heard many times...."the vision". Appears there was a conflict in vision that caused one door to close and another to open.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:12 PM   #16
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In the links provided, I see certain language present such as "body life", "oneness", etc. It leaves me wonder whether the LC connotation of those words/phrases is intended or not.
Speaking strictly for myself and perhaps others have this feeling too, having been jaded in the LC in the inferences of certain phrases:
  • Building up of the Body
  • Oneness
  • speaking the same thing
I'm sure there are more, but with any ordinary believer we might know from relations, friends, or work, the phrases in itself are harmless and quite positive. The LC inference is it could only be found through their brand of fellowship.
In my opinion if there is truly a care for oneness among believers, we don't care where they meet but themselves as a member of the Body as seen in 1 Corinthians 12.
How many times has fellowship been extinguished because of where a person meets or doesn't meet?
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Old 08-02-2017, 02:12 PM   #17
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I more or less agree with you and had the same impression. But we should also give him some credit. Think of how disruptive it must have been for him--a prominent elder in a prominent LC--to break ties and start to feel his own way. He's on the journey.

I can only imagine how he is being characterized and slandered now. Ambitious, charismatic, always doing his own thing, a work within the work, attracting people to follow after himself, nothing new, everything from the ministry etc., etc.
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One more descriptive word that would be characterized of such brothers is individualistic. Of course I tend to see it more as an unwillingness to sacrifice principles for the group.
Notice how none of these demeaning characteristics of ministers, apparently so treacherous in the LC's, is ever critiqued in the Bible. Sounds a whole lot like all the Apostles! I bet the Judaizers perfected all of these accusations and many more with Apostle Paul.
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Old 08-02-2017, 06:14 PM   #18
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Most people have never heard of Witness Lee either. Who knows--maybe Hon is the current Minister of the Age.
Give him 60 years and we'll see how his church and himself evolves
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Old 08-02-2017, 07:02 PM   #19
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If he is, as far as I'm concerned, that disqualifies him altogether. The idea that there is a MOTA in modernity is a cockamamie idea cooked up by megalomaniacs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia
It was a joke.
My principle stills stands. Nee's and Lee's claims about a MOTA is a big fat lie.
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Old 08-02-2017, 08:06 PM   #20
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Give him 60 years and we'll see how his church and himself evolves
Why don't you hold WL to the same standards of scrutiny?
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Old 08-02-2017, 08:33 PM   #21
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My principle stills stands. Nee's and Lee's claims about a MOTA is a big fat lie.
I completely agree.
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Old 08-02-2017, 08:35 PM   #22
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Give him 60 years and we'll see how his church and himself evolves
The Lord's up-to-date move.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:51 AM   #23
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The Lord's up-to-date move.
The Lord's got to get around the Blended brothers one way or another.
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Old 08-03-2017, 10:47 AM   #24
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One more descriptive word that would be characterized of such brothers is individualistic. Of course I tend to see it more as an unwillingness to sacrifice principles for the group.
I agree Koinonia, he is on a journey. As we have heard many times...."the vision". Appears there was a conflict in vision that caused one door to close and another to open.
One reason the situation with Mr. Hon caught my attention is because WL made a big deal about trying to get people to start and organize home gatherings. In certain parts of WL's ministry, it seems that he actually encouraged people to take initiative (in regards to getting an increase), even individual initiative if others weren't doing anything. Of course, WL contradicted himself on this. However, it seems that when Hon was in the LC, he must have taken to heart something that WL taught about home meetings. As I mentioned previously, in the area that I'm from, the leaders were really big on WL's "new way." The interesting part of it all is all the too good to be true promises that WL made. He spoke of exponential increase, “the final revival,” etc, etc.

As would be expected, the results of such things were never as promised, and this was always my observation in the area I’m from. However, in the case with Hon, you have someone who has their own little spin on what WL taught and because it happened to be successful, headquarters got jealous and came in to take over. It's ironic, because in order to practice what WL taught and avoid any kind of interference, it seems like it is dependent on having something mediocre, something that doesn't attract much attention. If a work ends up being successful, then everyone can rest assured that it’s only a matter of time before headquarters comes in to take over.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:01 PM   #25
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One reason the situation with Mr. Hon caught my attention is because WL made a big deal about trying to get people to start and organize home gatherings. In certain parts of WL's ministry, it seems that he actually encouraged people to take initiative (in regards to getting an increase), even individual initiative if others weren't doing anything. Of course, WL contradicted himself on this. However, it seems that when Hon was in the LC, he must have taken to heart something that WL taught about home meetings. As I mentioned previously, in the area that I'm from, the leaders were really big on WL's "new way." The interesting part of it all is all the too good to be true promises that WL made. He spoke of exponential increase, “the final revival,” etc, etc.

As would be expected, the results of such things were never as promised, and this was always my observation in the area I’m from. However, in the case with Hon, you have someone who has their own little spin on what WL taught and because it happened to be successful, headquarters got jealous and came in to take over. It's ironic, because in order to practice what WL taught and avoid any kind of interference, it seems like it is dependent on having something mediocre, something that doesn't attract much attention. If a work ends up being successful, then everyone can rest assured that it’s only a matter of time before headquarters comes in to take over.
Bro Freedom, did you ever consider the possibility that Witness Lee was delusional?
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:08 PM   #26
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If a work ends up being successful, then everyone can rest assured that it’s only a matter of time before headquarters comes in to take over.
Correct. That's what happened to Austin, Tx.

Not only so, but the leader must also get all the credit, all the glory, for the successes. In this regard, Cleveland was the same as Anaheim. The success of any subordinate is always viewed with suspicion. A fruitful subordinate is always viewed as a potential rival. This is systemic to the program.

Hence, the ultimate irony. Lee was "successful" in the US until he took over. Ask anyone from Elden Hall why the Lord blessed them, and they will tell you that Lee was not responsible for their blessing. Yet hagiography demanded it. So, by the time Lee did take over the Recovery, every one of his numerous "winds and waves of teaching" was a failure, despite the manufactured results.

Hence, a twofold response to failure was always mandated. First, blame all failures on subordinates. Second, steal all the glory from those who happened to bear fruit.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:35 PM   #27
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Hence, the ultimate irony. Lee was "successful" in the US until he took over. Ask anyone from Elden Hall why the Lord blessed them, and they will tell you that Lee was not responsible for their blessing. Yet hagiography demanded it. So, by the time Lee did take over the Recovery, every one of his numerous "winds and waves of teaching" was a failure, despite the manufactured results.
This could very well lead posts in a different direction, the increase Elden Hall had in the early seventies could be tied to the Jesus People movement that carried over from the late 60's. Then the growth just stagnated. Why was that?
Was it fallout from Daystar?
Was it an obvious change from Christ and the Church to a man and a ministry that began in 1974?
Elders have raised the question before "why has the increase stagnated", but they don't want a sincere answer.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:53 PM   #28
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One reason the situation with Mr. Hon caught my attention is because WL made a big deal about trying to get people to start and organize home gatherings. In certain parts of WL's ministry, it seems that he actually encouraged people to take initiative (in regards to getting an increase), even individual initiative if others weren't doing anything. Of course, WL contradicted himself on this. However, it seems that when Hon was in the LC, he must have taken to heart something that WL taught about home meetings.
Initiative is the key word. Indicates sidestepping fellowship protocol and taking individual decision making. Brothers and sisters alike are paralyzed from not making individual decisions when there's fellowship protocol that's expected.
I didn't have a problem with brother Hon's burden on home meetings. My question is what's the purpose of the home meeting? For many non-LC churches, home meetings is the best format for participation that wouldn't be possible on a Sunday morning service.
In Local Church home meetings the safe choice is to make the home meeting a miniature prophesying meeting. Just take turns reading sentences from HWFMR. It's pretentious. There's no real risk of having to bear one's soul.
For one to take the initiative and suggest, "let's set aside the ministry and present our individual burdens and trials before the group to pray over", how do you think that would go over? If it didn't come from elders, such a suggestion would be marginalized as being individualistic. Or as trying to seek a following.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:42 PM   #29
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Bro Freedom, did you ever consider the possibility that Witness Lee was delusional?
Yes, there is certainly that possibility if he was completely serious about some of the stuff he said. But I tend to view Lee as manipulative more than anything else.
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Old 08-03-2017, 05:13 PM   #30
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Correct. That's what happened to Austin, Tx.

Not only so, but the leader must also get all the credit, all the glory, for the successes. In this regard, Cleveland was the same as Anaheim. The success of any subordinate is always viewed with suspicion. A fruitful subordinate is always viewed as a potential rival. This is systemic to the program.

Hence, the ultimate irony. Lee was "successful" in the US until he took over. Ask anyone from Elden Hall why the Lord blessed them, and they will tell you that Lee was not responsible for their blessing. Yet hagiography demanded it. So, by the time Lee did take over the Recovery, every one of his numerous "winds and waves of teaching" was a failure, despite the manufactured results.

Hence, a twofold response to failure was always mandated. First, blame all failures on subordinates. Second, steal all the glory from those who happened to bear fruit.
Wow! bro Ohio! Why don't you knock it outta de park? Great and penetrating post.

You know, I have a friend from early on in the c. in Ft. Laud (1974-75). He's Hosepipe out here, but we don't hear much from him. Cuz we don't want to. I'll just say he don't mince words concerning "Witless Lee" as he likes to call him.

He was at the infamous Elden Hall when at its peak ... when the Holy Spirit took over the meetings, I'm told, by him. Infamous might not be the right word. It implies something bad. Maybe it's infamous cuz it's when Witless Lee killed the Holy Spirit.

Anyway bro Ohio, when you brought up hagiography it got me thinking. Then I wondered if Elden Hall, and the hyper-grand stories of supernatural goings-on, with the telling of unbelievable stories, of powerful moving's of the Holy Spirit, isn't riddled with hagiography.

I can tell you tho, it changed Hosepipe from that point on. Cuz he knew when the Holy Spirit was present or not. I remember he'd get up and walk out of the meeting. Later when I asked him why he said, "cuz the Holy Spirit wasn't there."

And he was right. The Holy Spirit wasn't needed. The lead elder. Mel Porter, took over. He had a group of 14 brothers in his trust, that he was using to "seed" the meetings, the way the elder wanted it to go, and to make it look like the Holy Spirit was guiding the meetings. It's a real sleight of hand (or in this case 'mind') trick. Hosepipe quit coming to meetings, because the Spirit wasn't there, he said, before he knew about the elder seeding the meetings.

But I digress. Back to hagiography and Elden stories. One story Hosepipe told me about what happened at Elden was that, in the meetings they would all in unison make up brand new songs, singing them together on the fly, with no one missing a single word, or note, or messing up out of confusion. And that proved to Hosepipe that the Holy Spirit was mightily moving at Elden. Is it fantastical? Well yes. It might just be hagiography of Elden speaking.

Hey. How far back does Hon go? Does he know about Elden? Can he add to the wonders of the hagiographying of Elden?
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Old 08-03-2017, 06:41 PM   #31
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Correct. That's what happened to Austin, Tx.
What's the story in Austin? Maybe you can point me to a different thread?
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Old 08-03-2017, 08:13 PM   #32
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The lead elder. Mel Porter, took over. He had a group of 14 brothers in his trust, that he was using to "seed" the meetings, the way the elder wanted it to go, and to make it look like the Holy Spirit was guiding the meetings. It's a real sleight of hand (or in this case 'mind') trick. Hosepipe quit coming to meetings, because the Spirit wasn't there, he said, before he knew about the elder seeding the meetings.
That's not a stretch to say awareness. I witnessed similar speaking by an elder in the NW when there was fellowship in taking Life Lessons in lieu of HWFMR. Instead of "seed", the term used was "plant". Brothers would be planted to steer the meeting. Of course it would appear as being spontaneous when really it wasn't.
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Old 08-03-2017, 08:24 PM   #33
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What's the story in Austin? Maybe you can point me to a different thread?
Don't know about another thread. Perhaps those from Texas (Nell, Igzy, OBW, Nell, etc.) can say more.

Under Don Looper the church in Austin had a fruitful work for many years on the U. of Texas main campus leading students to the Lord. LSM took it over. Instead of Christ our Savior, we now introduce students to "the ministry" and a full-time training.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:09 AM   #34
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Hence, the ultimate irony. Lee was "successful" in the US until he took over. Ask anyone from Elden Hall why the Lord blessed them, and they will tell you that Lee was not responsible for their blessing. . . . So, by the time Lee did take over the Recovery . . .
where was Eldon Hall? Why wasn't it ready to be the central place for the building of the so-called recovery?

Because it was already in decline due to the beginnings of Lee's takeover. He had to go some place new that had not been spoiled. And that place was Anaheim.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:07 AM   #35
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where was Eldon Hall? Why wasn't it ready to be the central place for the building of the so-called recovery?

Because it was already in decline due to the beginnings of Lee's takeover. He had to go some place new that had not been spoiled. And that place was Anaheim.
Elden Hall was an old Brethren meeting place in LA obtained by the newly formed LC. Don Rutledge, in his account, said that WL told him privately that Elden had become stale and his ministry needed a new start, and thus the move to Anaheim and the new name, from Stream Publisher to Living Stream Ministry. Numerous other posters (Elden1971, HosePipe, etc.) who were part of Elden have stated that Lee was not responsible for the blessing there, but his rise as the preeminent speaker expedited the end of the blessing.

The story oft-repeated in the GLA was that crime forced them out of LA. Titus Chu was always protective of WL, and covered up any and all unrighteousness at LSM including that of Philip amd Tomothy Lee, when the police should have been called. TC would allow any brother to be thrown under the bus in order to protect WL, his so-called "spiritual father," and his family. John Ingalls account STTIL made that clear. TC felt he owed everything to WL, including his own life. Most of us would conclude that we owed everything including our life to the Lord Jesus.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:20 AM   #36
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Elden Hall was an old Brethren meeting place in LA obtained by the newly formed LC. Don Rutledge, in his account, said that WL told him privately that Elden had become stale and his ministry needed a new start, and thus the move to Anaheim and the new name, from Stream Publisher to Living Stream Ministry. Numerous other posters (Elden1971, HosePipe, etc.) who were part of Elden have stated that Lee was not responsible for the blessing there, but his rise as the preeminent speaker expedited the end of the blessing. The story oft-repeated in the GLA was that crime forced them out of LA.
I do not doubt that conditions for retaining any particular hall may be less than supportive. But it is also evident that Lee didn't help them, and once he really started to preach, they went into decline. What they had was taken from then. The local crime rate probably didn't help. But once Lee began to do some of that major teaching from LA, the end was in sight.

Anaheim provided a new place to mess up. And by the time of the building of the Ball Road hall, it was already beginning to be a mess. And it just continued on and on, ultimately chasing the most valuable members from the premises.
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:55 AM   #37
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Elden Hall was an old Brethren meeting place in LA obtained by the newly formed LC.
I hadn't made that connection until now. If I'm not mistaken Hosepipe was meeting with brethren before the LC, prolly right there (I'll have to check with him ... if he'll talk to me -- politics, don't ya know).

So is Elden the epitome of the moving of the Holy Spirit for Lee's Local Church Movement?

It could be the death of Lee's movement. Example: Hosepipe had family in Tampa Florida. So he started pushing to establish a LC in Tampa. He got quite a gathering, that were meeting and praying. When it got big enough for Witness Lee to take notice, Lee sent in one of his crony's to take control. Hosepipe strongly and loudly objected. He said something to the effect of "We're following the Holy Spirit here, not Witness Lee."

Wow! Buuuuurrrrnnnn. There ya have it, the Holy Spirit, right there, putting down the following of Witness Lee.

If only everyone would have listened to what the Holy Spirit spoke at Elden. Lee wouldn't have been able to be the MOTA. The Spirit is still doing that, and some are listening.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:10 AM   #38
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Please excuse my total ignorance, but no one answered my question about Hon. Was Henry around for Elden Hall? Help! my awareness might be failing me!
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:12 AM   #39
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When it got big enough for Witness Lee to take notice, Lee sent in one of his crony's to take control. Hosepipe strongly and loudly objected. He said something to the effect of "We're following the Holy Spirit here, not Witness Lee."
BRAVO for Hosepipe!! Goes to show Lee did not trust the Holy Spirit.


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If only everyone would have listened to what the Holy Spirit spoke at Elden. Lee wouldn't have been able to be the MOTA. The Spirit is still doing that, and some are listening.
The LC taught us to 'turn to our spirit'.. but did not teach us to listen and follow the Voice of God, Who is the Holy Spirit living and operating in us. I'm trying to pay attention to His guidance. Getting better at discerning His Voice and my own! Still not quite there though.

Great observation Mr A!!
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:27 AM   #40
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So is Elden the epitome of the moving of the Holy Spirit for Lee's Local Church Movement?
For decades I heard about the wonderful blessing poured out by the Spirit of God upon Elden Hall.

I was constantly informed of the sole reason for this blessing -- the brothers and sisters were absolutely one with brother Lee. That is what I was repeatedly and definitively was told by WL and other LSM speakers.

Truth be told that version of history by WL was self-serving revisionist hagiography akin to present day LC mythology. It was a never ending pipe dream which all the diehard loyalists so diligently sought after.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:29 AM   #41
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I do not doubt that conditions for retaining any particular hall may be less than supportive. But it is also evident that Lee didn't help them, and once he really started to preach, they went into decline. What they had was taken from then. The local crime rate probably didn't help. But once Lee began to do some of that major teaching from LA, the end was in sight.

Anaheim provided a new place to mess up
. And by the time of the building of the Ball Road hall, it was already beginning to be a mess. And it just continued on and on, ultimately chasing the most valuable members from the premises.
The hall was still under construction and Phillip Lee was already hitting on the volunteer staff at LSM.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:47 AM   #42
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For decades I heard about the wonderful blessing poured out by the Spirit of God upon Elden Hall.

I was constantly informed of the sole reason for this blessing -- the brothers and sisters were absolutely one with brother Lee. That is what I was repeatedly and definitively was told by WL and other LSM speakers.

Truth be told that version of history by WL was self-serving revisionist hagiography akin to present day LC mythology. It was a never ending pipe dream which all the diehard loyalists so diligently sought after.
I thought Elden stories were swimming in hagiography. It produced fake news from WL & Co. Lee had to take the glory ... not the Holy Spirit. It (she/he/it - no name) gets no credit cuz it doesn't necessarily follow Witness Lee.
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Old 08-04-2017, 12:07 PM   #43
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Hosepipe had family in Tampa Florida. So he started pushing to establish a LC in Tampa. He got quite a gathering, that were meeting and praying. When it got big enough for Witness Lee to take notice, Lee sent in one of his crony's to take control.
Some from my mother's family (before we heard of Nee or anything else) were meeting in Clearwater, FL under the influence of Stephen Kwuang (I generally spell that wrong). We understand that eventually LA/Anaheim sent some to "meet with them" but it only lasted until it was evident that they were not going to follow Lee's leadership and they split-off and started their own group (maybe in St. Petersburg or other nearby city).

So much for the oneness of the body. More like the oneness of the ministry.
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Old 08-04-2017, 12:36 PM   #44
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Some from my mother's family (before we heard of Nee or anything else) were meeting in Clearwater, FL under the influence of Stephen Kwuang (I generally spell that wrong). We understand that eventually LA/Anaheim sent some to "meet with them" but it only lasted until it was evident that they were not going to follow Lee's leadership and they split-off and started their own group (maybe in St. Petersburg or other nearby city).

So much for the oneness of the body. More like the oneness of the ministry.
Some AoG were meeting in Detroit, ran into Nee writings, and declared themselves to be the church in Detroit.

Then they made a mistake. They contacted Lee in L.A. Once again Lee sent in his cronies. He sent Ron Kangas, Harry Ahlers, and Tim Scroggins. loyal Lee followers, and pushed out the existing elders.

Now there are two local churches in Detroit. One an LSM LC, and one not. The one not is the original, Ron Kangas, c. in Detroit.

So much for the ground of oneness doctrine.
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Old 08-04-2017, 12:36 PM   #45
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I thought Elden stories were swimming in hagiography. It produced fake news from WL & Co. Lee had to take the glory ... not the Holy Spirit. It (she/he/it - no name) gets no credit cuz it doesn't necessarily follow Witness Lee.
I just always wondered how much of the "wonderful move of the Spirit" was some special benefit from the Spirit v the general state of mind because of the freedoms they enjoyed and the camaraderie they shared. Not trying to suggest there was no "spiritual" enjoyment, but rather that we are prone to describing positive experiences as being from God or the Spirit and negative experiences as from "the evil one." Lee perpetuates this when he suggests that the sinking feeling in your stomach (or heart, or wherever you want to centralize it) when someone suggests a problem with LRC teaching is "from the evil one" instead of admitting that it might be a legitimate sinking feeling from the fact that your mind has caught on to the problem in the teaching you've been following for years. But there's Lee, ready to help you ignore your mind and that sinking feeling and blame it on Satan.

Then we just need a pep rally of "we are special" songs, cheering, and chanting to return to our anesthetized selves.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:57 PM   #46
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I'm enjoying reading everyone's perspective about Hon's insignificant little sect that no one knows about and has not heard of before. I must thank Koinonia for bringing this insignificant little sect to our attention.

I wonder if they have any sort of structure to their meetings and whether or not they all focus on one particular devotional or message, or perhaps just a conglomeration and confusion of topics what everyone feels like talking about at the time.
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:05 PM   #47
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I'm enjoying reading everyone's perspective about Hon's insignificant little sect that no one knows about and has not heard of before. I must thank Koinonia for bringing this insignificant little sect to our attention.

I wonder if they have any sort of structure to their meetings and whether or not they all focus on one particular devotional or message, or perhaps just a conglomeration and confusion of topics what everyone feels like talking about at the time.
The double-standard that you hold is getting long in the tooth. What seperates the LCM and those like Hon? Not too much. The principles they hold to are the same, and the ideology is the same. The only difference is which ministry they associate themselves with. So why do you call Hon's group as sect and not the LSM denomination?
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:43 PM   #48
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I just always wondered how much of the "wonderful move of the Spirit" was some special benefit from the Spirit v the general state of mind because of the freedoms they enjoyed and the camaraderie they shared. Not trying to suggest there was no "spiritual" enjoyment, but rather that we are prone to describing positive experiences as being from God or the Spirit and negative experiences as from "the evil one." Lee perpetuates this when he suggests that the sinking feeling in your stomach (or heart, or wherever you want to centralize it) when someone suggests a problem with LRC teaching is "from the evil one" instead of admitting that it might be a legitimate sinking feeling from the fact that your mind has caught on to the problem in the teaching you've been following for years. But there's Lee, ready to help you ignore your mind and that sinking feeling and blame it on Satan.

Then we just need a pep rally of "we are special" songs, cheering, and chanting to return to our anesthetized selves.
I have found it interesting to read all the various accounts of LC history available, as well learning about the various spin-off groups. It seems all those who were around in the early days of the LCM were awestricken by the rapid increase/growth of the LCM in the U.S.

I don't intend to question what people have claimed to experienced at that point in time, however, it seems much of the growth of the movement was fueled by the perception or belief that the LCM was something exceptional. So the meaning attributed to the growth of the LCM was most likely a false cause fallacy.

The initial growth rate of the LCM in the U.S. has been unsurpassed by anything happening now in the LCM. Therefore, it seems fair to attribute that initial growth to some factor not pertaining to anything that the LC stands for or claims to stand for. It could have been as simple as an initial zeal that died off.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:08 PM   #49
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I'm enjoying reading everyone's perspective about Hon's insignificant little sect that no one knows about and has not heard of before. I must thank Koinonia for bringing this insignificant little sect to our attention.

I wonder if they have any sort of structure to their meetings and whether or not they all focus on one particular devotional or message, or perhaps just a conglomeration and confusion of topics what everyone feels like talking about at the time.
Yeah, let's dismiss Hon and his puny little sect. Only problem is, I've seen God blessing puny little sects. So dismissing Hon may just be dismissing God.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:31 PM   #50
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I'm enjoying reading everyone's perspective about Hon's insignificant little sect that no one knows about and has not heard of before. I must thank Koinonia for bringing this insignificant little sect to our attention.

I wonder if they have any sort of structure to their meetings and whether or not they all focus on one particular devotional or message, or perhaps just a conglomeration and confusion of topics what everyone feels like talking about at the time.
Wow, your attitude is showing...
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:39 PM   #51
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Gee, maybe I missed something. Did Henry Hon ever proclaim himself to be THE ONLY PERSON SPEAKING AS GODS ORACLE ON EARTH? Surely somebody would have caught this kind of blatant absurdity on their cell phone. Did Henry Hon ever force every member of his insignificant little sect to read ONLY WHAT HE HAS SPOKEN AND WRITTEN, and tell them that if they read other stuff that "the process of sanctification would stop in their lives" and that "they would never be a great spiritual person?" Did Henry Hon ever fire and or publicly humiliate any elder or co-worker who looked cross-eyed at his son?....just sayin....
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:19 AM   #52
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As highlighted by Freedom and others, it seems Mr Hon still holds onto the vision he has received from the Recovery about God not just wanting to save people but having a higher purpose. He distinguishes between what Lee calls the low gospel which is about what God can do for man, and the high gospel about what God wants man to do for Him.

Also, him pointing out the shortcoming of Rick Warren's book is an observation I have also made.

Hon also mentions God's consummate goal which is language that is very Lee-like. However where Lee would say God's goal is to head up all things in Christ, which is biblical,
Hon says it is Oneness.


Sentences by Hon such as this one:

"People the world over, though diverse, have the same yearning: to live in peace and come together as one. "

sound a little like the Utopian dream of the New Age movement - world peace and oneness.

The bible however makes clear that God's goal is to head up all things in Christ, the Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem. Before that happens there won't be oneness but warfare and division.

God's consummate goal can be found in the last book of the bible, Revelation, and it is not the Oneness that Hon claims although Oneness will be there.

What distinguishes Hon's group from a typical house church movement is the holding into Recovery-like ideas such as oneness, God's consummate goal and the deficiencies in Christiandom.

So I think describing his group as a "local church sect" is an okay description. The word sect means a cut, so it seems to be a cut away of the local church.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:33 AM   #53
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As highlighted by Freedom and others, it seems Mr Hon still holds onto the vision he has received from the Recovery about God not just wanting to save people but having a higher purpose. He distinguishes between the low gospel which is about what God can do for man, and the high gospel about what God wants man to do for Him.
Every church I have ever attended spoke, "about God not just wanting to save people but having a higher purpose." Are you serious, EvanG?

And, btw, the so-called "high calling purpose" in the Recovery has nothing to do with God's needs, but has everything to do with LSM's needs.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:40 AM   #54
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Every church I have ever attended spoke, "about God not just wanting to save people but having a higher purpose." Are you serious, EvanG?

And, btw, the so-called "high calling purpose" in the Recovery has nothing to do with God's needs, but has everything to do with LSM's needs.
You got that from Rick Warren I suppose. Was this higher purpose oneness like the Recovery and Hon believes? I don't think many churches know that God's purpose is oneness. They typically think God's purpose is some sort of ministry or activity.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:58 AM   #55
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Don't know about another thread. Perhaps those from Texas (Nell, Igzy, OBW, Nell, etc.) can say more.

Under Don Looper the church in Austin had a fruitful work for many years on the U. of Texas main campus leading students to the Lord. LSM took it over. Instead of Christ our Savior, we now introduce students to "the ministry" and a full-time training.
It's been interesting reading many of these posts about Eldon Hall and "seeding of meetings", but they sure seem off topic.

On the topic of Austin: One of the deadest and sickest Meetings I attended in TLR was there. I had been away from TLR in California from 1986 to mid 1988 (and had gotten clear of the "stench" and straight jacket), but was in Austin with family, and went to a meeting with a family member who was still in TLR. I was stunned! Some "brothers" coming and going from the hall looked like zombies (no kidding). And, talk about lack of The Spirit in a meeting! I wondered what happened to make it so dead.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:30 AM   #56
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Gee, maybe I missed something. Did Henry Hon ever proclaim himself to be THE ONLY PERSON SPEAKING AS GODS ORACLE ON EARTH? Surely somebody would have caught this kind of blatant absurdity on their cell phone. Did Henry Hon ever force every member of his insignificant little sect to read ONLY WHAT HE HAS SPOKEN AND WRITTEN, and tell them that if they read other stuff that "the process of sanctification would stop in their lives" and that "they would never be a great spiritual person?" Did Henry Hon ever fire and or publicly humiliate any elder or co-worker who looked cross-eyed at his son?....just sayin....
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I'm with those who want to give Henry Hon some credit and "benefit of the doubt" before rushing to judgement. I saw Henry and his brother Paul at "trainings" and conferences in Anaheim, as well as "Bay Area" (San Francisco Bay Area) conferences and church meetings (which I drove to from my Central Valley home) from 1978 through the 1990's, and again after 2005.

Henry clearly bought hard and deep into "the new way" of "vital groups", and says home meetings started according to that model have been very Spirit filled, and successful in bringing many to salvation and growth in Christ over the past 20 years in the Bay Area. His writings clearly read like Lee's (he gives his history from 1969 salvation and local church experience early in the book, and admits his writings' influence by Nee and Lee).

I've also been part of many great home meetings associated with a number of different groups since the late 1980's, and wondered why local church elders were too chicken to let go of the dependence on their meeting halls.... when home meetings were better than "the big meetings", at having attendees talk to each other honestly about their lives, get into the Bible together, and pray.

Being a short drive from the Bay Area now, I may go check them out at "a Blending Meeting" advertised on the Face Book page linked to the web site his book promotes. Gee, I wonder where he got that term?!

Honestly, when Christians get together in Jesus' name, read the Bible together, pray, fellowship (truthfully, not faking it), sing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs (rooted in the Bible), love one another, and don't fall into the trap of promoting one minister above another... The Holy Spirit pours out. That happened sometimes during TLR's history (many of us are witnesses). But, we gave glory to a man and not God the source of all blessings.
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:16 AM   #57
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Henry's brother Paul took the lead to spread TLR in Mexico. As of 2015 he hadn't reached "Blended Brother" status, but was always a featured speaker at Bay Area conferences he attended.

While he was always loyal to LSM and not the most Spirit filled speaker (to me, and maybe me only), I appreciated that he spent a lot of time in the Bible, and spoke from verses he had received light from, not just the latest LSM party line. At one of the last conferences I attended, at which he spoke, his speaking on the Lord's word "don't be anxious (about food, shelter, clothing)" was very exposing and helpful to me. I remember it frequently when worry about those things creeps in, and let it go. A big help!
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:10 AM   #58
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Henry's brother Paul took the lead to spread TLR in Mexico. As of 2015 he hadn't reached "Blended Brother" status, but was always a featured speaker at Bay Area conferences he attended.

While he was always loyal to LSM and not the most Spirit filled speaker (to me, and maybe me only), I appreciated that he spent a lot of time in the Bible, and spoke from verses he had received light from, not just the latest LSM party line. At one of the last conferences I attended, at which he spoke, his speaking on the Lord's word "don't be anxious (about food, shelter, clothing)" was very exposing and helpful to me. I remember it frequently when worry about those things creeps in, and let it go. A big help!
Which one are you referring to by "he?"
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:24 AM   #59
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You got that from Rick Warren I suppose. Was this higher purpose oneness like the Recovery and Hon believes? I don't think many churches know that God's purpose is oneness. They typically think God's purpose is some sort of ministry or activity.
Is God's purpose really oneness?

Christians have been obsessing over "oneness" for two millennia, and it has never turned out well for us. The Catholic "oneness" church obsessed over oneness, and look where it led them. Same with the Exclusive Brethren and the so-called Recovery. Why is it every time church leaders obsess over oneness, their followers end up obsessing over their leader? Think Popes, Oracles, and MOTAs.

This is why I often say, based on church history, that distorted oneness has done more damage to the church of God than any other heresy, and that's exactly what obsessing over distorted oneness is, a horrible heresy in the church. The Catholics held endless inquisitions (and tortures) over perceived violations of their distorted oneness, and the Exclusives and Lee/Blendeds have held endless quarantines (and lawsuits) over perceived violations of their own distorted oneness.

The Lord Jesus commanded us to love God and to love our neighbors. In this regard, love is to be much more desired than oneness. It's also much more difficult to fake love than oneness, since oneness can be so easily disguised as uniformity, manufactured by an unholy allegiance to an earthly headquarters.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:18 PM   #60
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Did Hon and his little sect declare the ground somewhere?

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As highlighted by Freedom and others, it seems Mr Hon still holds onto the vision he has received from the Recovery about God not just wanting to save people but having a higher purpose. He distinguishes between what Lee calls the low gospel which is about what God can do for man, and the high gospel about what God wants man to do for Him.

Also, him pointing out the shortcoming of Rick Warren's book is an observation I have also made.

Hon also mentions God's consummate goal which is language that is very Lee-like. However where Lee would say God's goal is to head up all things in Christ, which is biblical,
Hon says it is Oneness.


Sentences by Hon such as this one:

"People the world over, though diverse, have the same yearning: to live in peace and come together as one. "

sound a little like the Utopian dream of the New Age movement - world peace and oneness.

The bible however makes clear that God's goal is to head up all things in Christ, the Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem. Before that happens there won't be oneness but warfare and division.

God's consummate goal can be found in the last book of the bible, Revelation, and it is not the Oneness that Hon claims although Oneness will be there.

What distinguishes Hon's group from a typical house church movement is the holding into Recovery-like ideas such as oneness, God's consummate goal and the deficiencies in Christiandom.

So I think describing his group as a "local church sect" is an okay description. The word sect means a cut, so it seems to be a cut away of the local church.
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:06 PM   #61
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Why won't people just let the Holy Spirit be our TEACHER AND LEAD??

Jesus told us He would send Him to us.
“But the Helper, (the Comforter) the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

I also know the LORD GOD also raises people to teach..
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

(I think Ephesians 4:10-12 gave the enemy the license to entice religious people with these offices. So now we have "apostle so and so" 'bishop so and so", "Evangelist so and so" "Pastor so and so"... and of course the MOTA.)

and yet Hebrews 8:11 says
they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ For all will know Me, From the least to the greatest of them.


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Did Hon and his little sect declare the ground somewhere?
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:51 PM   #62
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As highlighted by Freedom and others, it seems Mr Hon still holds onto the vision he has received from the Recovery about God not just wanting to save people but having a higher purpose. He distinguishes between what Lee calls the low gospel which is about what God can do for man, and the high gospel about what God wants man to do for Him.

Also, him pointing out the shortcoming of Rick Warren's book is an observation I have also made.

Hon also mentions God's consummate goal which is language that is very Lee-like. However where Lee would say God's goal is to head up all things in Christ, which is biblical,
Hon says it is Oneness.


Sentences by Hon such as this one:

"People the world over, though diverse, have the same yearning: to live in peace and come together as one. "

sound a little like the Utopian dream of the New Age movement - world peace and oneness.

The bible however makes clear that God's goal is to head up all things in Christ, the Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem. Before that happens there won't be oneness but warfare and division.

God's consummate goal can be found in the last book of the bible, Revelation, and it is not the Oneness that Hon claims although Oneness will be there.

What distinguishes Hon's group from a typical house church movement is the holding into Recovery-like ideas such as oneness, God's consummate goal and the deficiencies in Christiandom.

So I think describing his group as a "local church sect" is an okay description. The word sect means a cut, so it seems to be a cut away of the local church.
Evangelical, spiritual truths--if they are truths--are not owned by Witness Lee or "the Recovery." That you seem to think so would demonstrate how narrow you are.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:06 AM   #63
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Which one are you referring to by "he?"
Paul. Sorry for being unclear. I don't remember much about Henry.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:56 AM   #64
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Is God's purpose really oneness?

Christians have been obsessing over "oneness" for two millennia, and it has never turned out well for us. The Catholic "oneness" church obsessed over oneness, and look where it led them. Same with the Exclusive Brethren and the so-called Recovery. Why is it every time church leaders obsess over oneness, their followers end up obsessing over their leader? Think Popes, Oracles, and MOTAs.

This is why I often say, based on church history, that distorted oneness has done more damage to the church of God than any other heresy, and that's exactly what obsessing over distorted oneness is, a horrible heresy in the church. The Catholics held endless inquisitions (and tortures) over perceived violations of their distorted oneness, and the Exclusives and Lee/Blendeds have held endless quarantines (and lawsuits) over perceived violations of their own distorted oneness.

The Lord Jesus commanded us to love God and to love our neighbors. In this regard, love is to be much more desired than oneness. It's also much more difficult to fake love than oneness, since oneness can be so easily disguised as uniformity, manufactured by an unholy allegiance to an earthly headquarters.
Good point Ohio. Ephesians 1 and 3 plainly state God's eternal plan or purpose is to sum up (Recovery version alone says head up) all things in Christ, and that it has already been accomplished (3:11). Through the mysterious stewardship of God the Apostle Paul was given grace to participate in and reveal, we gentile believers along with Jewish believers in the assembly are given sonship, an inheritance, and peace through Christ, and are the first to hope in Christ. And, his working in us is to be to the praise of the glory of God's grace, and be a display to the heavenly rulers and authorities.

Evangelical is right that Revelation is a good place to see God's plan manifested.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:45 PM   #65
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The Lord Jesus commanded us to love God and to love our neighbors. In this regard, love is to be much more desired than oneness. It's also much more difficult to fake love than oneness, since oneness can be so easily disguised as uniformity, manufactured by an unholy allegiance to an earthly headquarters.
I thought this needed to be repeated. Jesus commanded us to love one another. With oneness He prayed that we would all be one, but it was not the law of liberty. In fact there are many instances in the NT where you would be required to "not be one" with someone.

Uniformity comes to us an angel of light, as "oneness". Unholy allegiance comes to us as an angel of light, as "oneness". Hatred, back biting, insults, and self justification comes to us as an angel of light, by condemning all others for not "caring of the oneness". In this way they ignore the Lord's command to love one another.
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Old 08-07-2017, 05:59 AM   #66
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I thought this needed to be repeated. Jesus commanded us to love one another. With oneness He prayed that we would all be one, but it was not the law of liberty. In fact there are many instances in the NT where you would be required to "not be one" with someone.

Uniformity comes to us an angel of light, as "oneness". Unholy allegiance comes to us as an angel of light, as "oneness". Hatred, back biting, insults, and self justification comes to us as an angel of light, by condemning all others for not "caring of the oneness". In this way they ignore the Lord's command to love one another.
Great points.

And wouldn't he who claimed to be the Minister of the Age qualify also for what Paul called a "Super Apostle?"
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:56 AM   #67
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I connected with Henry Hon by e-mail and phone over the last week.

He has an interesting story.... which is told in his book.

It seems he got in trouble with TLR leadership and expelled from their meetings for doing exactly what the "Vital Groups" books by WL promoted (meeting in homes and preaching the gospel from door to door). Go figure!

He was bewildered by it, because the leaders who confronted him couldn't tell him what he had done wrong, offered no witnesses of wrong doing privately, and didn't "tell it to the church" either. They were mostly upset because they didn't have any control over it.

After a while he realized they had done him a favor. He was free to continue doing what he and his family had been doing for 20 years, just outside TLR. So he has.

He doesn't want any part of being bitter, just positive. He's moved on, and continues to enjoy Christ and spread His good news.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #68
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because the leaders who confronted him couldn't tell him what he had done wrong, offered no witnesses of wrong doing privately, and didn't "tell it to the church" either. They were mostly upset because they didn't have any control over it.
Same experience I've heard from other brothers. No matter how many times one would ask for a reason, no reply.
"didn't have any control over it", that I would liken to little boys who expel other little boys who won't play by their set of rules.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:13 PM   #69
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Yes, Terry. Pretty juvenial isn't it.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:58 PM   #70
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I'm sure the anticipate response is to "be coordinated". In other words that amounts to asking permission.
'Brothers, may I have permission to host a home meeting in my home?"
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:02 PM   #71
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I'm sure the anticipate response is to "be coordinated". In other words that amounts to asking permission.
'Brothers, may I have permission to host a home meeting in my home?"
The situation with Hon highlights one of the big reasons that the LCM is in a state of decline. The only thing that Hon did 'wrong' was that he took something that Lee taught seriously and attempt to implement and practice it. This, of course, is a big no-no, because it involves being proactive and taking initiative.

Throughout Lee's ministry, there can be found plenty of examples of calls to action. Yet, it appears, that neither Lee nor his successors ever wanted people to take heed to such calls. Rather, it seems it was some sort of 'inspirational' type of message to get everyone feeling positive, maybe in attempt to divert attention from other things.

Anyways, as it applies to the rank and file members, a question arises. If LC members aren't supposed to do anything proactive, then what are they supposed to do? I know that many of those who I was around in the LC knew very well to not do anything that would give even the slightest hint of taking initiative or being proactive. Rather, everyone was expected to wait around until they were assigned to handle something. Yet elders would routinely criticize all of us for not being 'fruitful' or not ever taking on responsibility. It got to the point of being ridiculous, because the minute someone did attempt to do anything, they would jump on that person.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:07 PM   #72
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The situation with Hon highlights one of the big reasons that the LCM is in a state of decline. The only thing that Hon did 'wrong' was that he took something that Lee taught seriously and attempt to implement and practice it. This, of course, is a big no-no, because it involves being proactive and taking initiative.
He seems to have gone off on a tangent to try and create a kind of New Age Utopian world:


"People the world over, though diverse, have the same yearning: to live in peace and come together as one. "


This sort of thing sounds like the language of rainbows and unicorns, not Lee's teaching and not really biblical.

He doesn't seem to go beyond seeing that oneness and world peace is not God's end goal.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:15 PM   #73
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He seems to have gone off on a tangent to try and create a kind of New Age Utopian world:


"People the world over, though diverse, have the same yearning: to live in peace and come together as one. "


This sort of thing sounds like the language of rainbows and unicorns, not Lee's teaching and not really biblical.

He doesn't seem to go beyond seeing that oneness and world peace is not God's end goal.
I already stated that it his book looks to be his own spin on some of Lee's teachings. But as you know, I don't find Lee's teachings to be appealing either. Regardless, he was kicked out of the LCM for what appears to be the crime of having home meetings in his home.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:02 PM   #74
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The situation with Hon highlights one of the big reasons that the LCM is in a state of decline. The only thing that Hon did 'wrong' was that he took something that Lee taught seriously and attempt to implement and practice it. This, of course, is a big no-no, because it involves being proactive and taking initiative.

Throughout Lee's ministry, there can be found plenty of examples of calls to action. Yet, it appears, that neither Lee nor his successors ever wanted people to take heed to such calls. Rather, it seems it was some sort of 'inspirational' type of message to get everyone feeling positive, maybe in attempt to divert attention from other things.

Anyways, as it applies to the rank and file members, a question arises. If LC members aren't supposed to do anything proactive, then what are they supposed to do? I know that many of those who I was around in the LC knew very well to not do anything that would give even the slightest hint of taking initiative or being proactive. Rather, everyone was expected to wait around until they were assigned to handle something. Yet elders would routinely criticize all of us for not being 'fruitful' or not ever taking on responsibility. It got to the point of being ridiculous, because the minute someone did attempt to do anything, they would jump on that person.
One of these "calls to action" was for other brothers in TLR to write books. So they did. Later on this got them quarantined.

I also believe that this contradictory construct of challenge to be fruitful yet condemn those who take initiative is maintained to hold them in servitude. It is foreign to Americans, and it must be a Chinese cultural construct.

One senior GLA worker, well-respected and quite fruitful, once commented on working under Titus Chu. He likened it to being a dog and coming to his master in subjection. Like you said this "highlights one of the big reasons that the LCM is in a state of decline."
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:13 PM   #75
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It got to the point of being ridiculous, because the minute someone did attempt to do anything, they would jump on that person.
I had that thought too. Not that many years ago when I was part of the LC Renton home meetings, I had the consideration we should not be taking turns reading sentences in a ministry publication, but rather pray for one another's situations, issues, etc. As Freedom pointed out the anticipated consequence of such a suggestion is "you're being individualistic", "you're not in coordination", etc.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:32 PM   #76
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He seems to have gone off on a tangent to try and create a kind of New Age Utopian world...
You might want to dig a little deeper than his opening statement before criticizing him, Evangelical. He is right that people the world over desire peace and oneness (witness the Unitarians). His point may be that only Christ gives true peace (true and scriptural), and true oneness is only found in the Father, Son, and Spirit (also true and scriptural).
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:51 PM   #77
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I went to one of the One Body Life "blending meetings" today. A Holy Spirit filled bunch of saints, who love Jesus, the Bible, and one another. Various saints meet in homes and from home churches and various churches in SF Bay Area, Central Valley, and other West Coast cities.

From what I could see, Henry's "One Body Life" is not just a Utopic vision, but a reality he, his family, and many others have been living for quite a while.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:30 AM   #78
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You might want to dig a little deeper than his opening statement before criticizing him, Evangelical. He is right that people the world over desire peace and oneness (witness the Unitarians). His point may be that only Christ gives true peace (true and scriptural), and true oneness is only found in the Father, Son, and Spirit (also true and scriptural).
It was more this book summary that had me wondering where he seems to think Christ's "one mission" was to unite people together as one. No mention of Jesus's "one mission" to die on the cross, to save people from their sins. No mention of regeneration:

Jesus Christ had one mission: to unite disparate people to become ONE. The night before His death, He offered a monumental prayer (John 17). In this prayer He made His heart's desire clear: wants all people, irrespective of differences in background, ethnicity, politics, and/or socio-economic status, to be ONE. Just as Jesus and the Father are perfectly ONE, Jesus desires His people to be included in this complete oneness. He made the ultimate sacrifice in order to achieve His consummate goal: He died on the cross for all people, and, in triumphant resurrection and ascension, He gave three gifts so that “. . . they [we] may be ONE.”
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:06 AM   #79
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Yes, his summary does seem over-simplified. The book, however goes into the details you mention.

Henry twice asked me for any comments, including criticism, on his book (which I'm still reading). And that may be something I'll offer (reduce sweeping over-generalizations of things and avoid placing too much weight on a limited number of verses). Those are things Witness Lee was prone to doing, and many of us here take issue with.
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:27 PM   #80
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So, I reread Chapter 1 of Hon's book. It does a good job of explaining why he places so much weight on John 17 for what God's purpose is, and relates what Jesus prayed there to other verses on God's purpose.

As "that they(His believers) would be one" (even as He and the Father) is stated three times in John 17. Since out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and Jesus and the Father are one, this is clearly God's hearts desire for believers. So who am I to say Hon is wrong to place such emphasis there?

I have two or three sentences in Chapter 1 to suggest changes to, but will do that to Henry privately.

The book goes on to discuss much more detail on the oneness of the Spirit we all have and are charged to keep, and all of us maturing into the oneness of the faith from doctrinal and practical standpoints. And I witnessed it in action Saturday, so I want to do what I urged Evangelical to do "not rush to judgement" here.
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Old 01-20-2018, 01:37 PM   #81
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Witness Lee a little China man was sent to this country by the great Triune God to teach the proud American Christianity the central thought the central point of the Bible and that is that God in his Trinity has gone through a process to become the all inclusive Spirit to dispense himself into man's spirit and then into man's soul to reconstitute him to be the body of Christ to express Him in His fullnes to the universe ultimaely as the New Jerusalem. It is not Witness Lee's fault that he is become one of the top gifts in the last two thousand years to the Lord's Church. If you don't believe me pick up a Recovery Version and read just a few of his more than 9,000 footnotes and then look at the hundreds of prper local churches produced through his ministry throughout the entire world and you will be convinced
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Old 01-20-2018, 06:35 PM   #82
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'One of the top gifts'? - name all the top gifts, and lets see who and what are 'top gifts'.
Pls note: 'top gifts' not biblical. 'Gifts' are mention in the bible, ' top gifts' no, - NO.

' prper local churches' ?
What are prper local churches ? Which are prper local churches?
Answer pls. And lets see what you mean.

Name of top gifts required. Name of prper local churches required.

God is light and, if 'top gifts' and ' prper local churches' are of God, they are not in 'darkness', they shine for all to see, dare you not mention them?
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Old 01-20-2018, 07:28 PM   #83
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Been there, done that. Got the tee shirt. Sold it at a yard sale.
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Old 01-20-2018, 08:08 PM   #84
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LC members do not realize that--when genuine--they often sound like a satire of themselves.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:59 AM   #85
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Witness Lee a little China man was sent to this country by the great Triune God to teach the proud American Christianity the central thought the central point of the Bible and that is that God in his Trinity has gone through a process to become the all inclusive Spirit to dispense himself into man's spirit and then into man's soul to reconstitute him to be the body of Christ to express Him in His fullnes to the universe ultimaely as the New Jerusalem. It is not witness Lee's fault that he is become one of the top gifts in the last two thousand years to the Lord's Church. If you don't believe me pick up a Recovery Version and read just a few of his more than 9,000 footnotes and then look at the hundreds of prper local churches produced through his ministry throughout the entire world and you will be convinced
Thanks for joining us Unregistered. I have a Recovery Version of the Bible, and have read most of the footnotes, and spent 17 years in two different “local churches” and have spent 32 years comparing Witness Lee’s teachings and practices versus the Bible (because I witnessed huge problems in “the churches”) and concluded he “wasn’t all that”.

Please take the time to register, stick around a while, and help explain the many contradictions of Witness Lee to us.

Thanks,

JJ
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:30 PM   #86
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I attended part of the “One in Messiah” conference in Sacramento this weekend where Henry Hon and many others spoke.

Parts of the conference were very good! The one body.life website has links to internet TV recordings of the sessions if you are interested in watching.

I highly recommend Henry’s and Richard Enns’ sessions in particular. But, I haven’t seen most of the other sessions, and doubtless missed a lot of good stuff!

There were several former “local church” members in attendance. We were able to trade “war stories” but also encourage each other in Christ through the fellowship with the Father and through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is Lord and Christ, and is coming soon!

Blessings.

JJ
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:52 AM   #87
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Correction to my previous post. Gaylord Enns, not Richard.
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Old 09-08-2018, 03:26 PM   #88
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Gee, maybe I missed something. Did Henry Hon ever proclaim himself to be THE ONLY PERSON SPEAKING AS GODS ORACLE ON EARTH? Surely somebody would have caught this kind of blatant absurdity on their cell phone. Did Henry Hon ever force every member of his insignificant little sect to read ONLY WHAT HE HAS SPOKEN AND WRITTEN, and tell them that if they read other stuff that "the process of sanctification would stop in their lives" and that "they would never be a great spiritual person?" Did Henry Hon ever fire and or publicly humiliate any elder or co-worker who looked cross-eyed at his son?....just sayin....
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The answer to all your questions is "no". Henry Hon is far more concerned that the lost would get saved and the saints would enjoy Christ, than matters of hierarchy, authority or power. I've known Henry since 1977. While I don't agree completely with his actions, no one can impugn his character or motives.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:31 PM   #89
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I attended part of the “One in Messiah” conference in Sacramento this weekend where Henry Hon and many others spoke.

Parts of the conference were very good! The one body.life website has links to internet TV recordings of the sessions if you are interested in watching.

I highly recommend Henry’s and Richard Enns’ sessions in particular. But, I haven’t seen most of the other sessions, and doubtless missed a lot of good stuff!

There were several former “local church” members in attendance. We were able to trade “war stories” but also encourage each other in Christ through the fellowship with the Father and through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is Lord and Christ, and is coming soon!

Blessings.

JJ
Interesting . . . on the One Body Life website you mentioned, Doug Kieger (who was being discussed on another thread) is listed as a director along with Henry Hon. https://www.onebody.life/about

Anyway, I knew Henry while in the LC in Ba-zerkly back in the 70s - he always appeared to me as a sincere and zealous seeker of Jesus.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:14 PM   #90
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Interesting . . . on the One Body Life website you mentioned, Doug Kieger (who was being discussed on another thread) is listed as a director along with Henry Hon. https://www.onebody.life/about

Anyway, I knew Henry while in the LC in Ba-zerkly back in the 70s - he always appeared to me as a sincere and zealous seeker of Jesus.

Another dear brother who got quarantined by the system.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:19 PM   #91
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Another dear brother who got quarantined by the system.
And therein lies the problem - "the system." Any time a system starts to move in, the Lord is pushed out.
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