Moved from Main Page: We Should Do Something

[ExChurchKid]

Hi all,
I was forced by my parents to grow up in the churchlife, and it was terrible. I felt judged, shamed, controlled, and isolated. But somehow, I also felt like I had to stay, because of the brainwashing. It took much therapy and the experience of the outside world throughout undergrad and grad school for me to realize that I was normal, and the church was not. Not the other way around, which I had always thought. I had always seen myself as abnormal for not experiencing the Lord, or feeling Him in me, or all these other things that were supposedly what the churchlife was about. I just learned to do whatever it was I wanted to do the least (i.e. read a fantasy novel, or a ministry book? Better read a ministry book because I need to deny myself and that's probably what God wants anyway because the novel sounds more fun).

But I'm free! I finally got financially independent, emotional independent, and left. Now I rarely talk to either churchlife people, or even my parents. I've come to realize that growing up in the churchlife (and for reference, I was born in the 90s), and then leaving, is a unique experience that only other ex-church kids can truly understand. People still in the church don't understand, and neither do people who never experienced the local churches. So in conclusion, I think we should do something. I'm so grateful I found this website (it was recommended to me by someone on Reddit who says they're a minor stuck in the churchlife because their parents are forcing them, which I think is terrible). Is there anything we can do? Can we help the current church kids to not have to go through what we went through? Can we expose the truth of the local churches? I read about a libel suit in the 80s that the local churches actually won, by suing the authors and publishers of a couple of books that I think tell the truth about the churches. I think those books should be back in print. I feel somewhat powerless and lost.

Thanks for reading!

[Acolyte4236]

I wrote this to help people coming out of various abusive groups. You might find it helpful.

https://energeticprocession.wordpres...ing-your-cult/

[Curious]

Hi, Exchurchkid, great to hear from you.

To address you question.... In a free society, there are limits to what can be done, and the LC is one of many abberant groups. They are more subtle and insidious than most which is the thing that gets my heckles up about them! (the most concerning factor about them). I mean, the jehovas witness and the Mormons have a clear reputation that goes before them, but who's heard of the LC's? Even their lack of a clear defining name helps keep it under the radar to the general public.

This forum is one of the ways to reach people trapped inside. Sadly, we can't do more than create something for people to choose to look into, and they have to be brave or extremely disillusioned, or angry enough to do so.

An encouraging thing recently has been the unusually high numbers of new posters among people such as yourself. Ex-church kids, and younger generation people who maybe joined through a campus outreach, and have been in long enough to have seen through it, but not long enough to be so intimidated or deeply indoctrinated. This plus other sites on the Internet committed to this cause, and one-on-one personal contact with members, (tackling the mind games head-on, not an easy task) is the best that can be done that I can think of, anyway.

The other aspect about a free society is that a person IS free to leave, and retribution from the LC itself has to he limited to what is legal. They can't do a literal 'witch-hunt' to destroy you, only play psychological warfare with words. Damaging enough yes, but not as bad as past episodes of church history!

Focusing on one's own full recovery is the best first move. I wish you well on your journey!!

[Trapped]

Welcome ExChurchKid! (How was that username not already taken??)

Glad to see another fellow church kid on this forum.

I don't have time to say much at the moment, but as far as doing something, I personally think the more web presence out there, the better.

The local churches only exist at this point because of the heavy drive on college campuses to get naive, uncertain college students in their clutches. Without that influx, the local churches would be steadily dropping in numbers.

The best way to reach college students is to put more online about what the local churches really are. Jacob Howard's site, www.thelordsrecovery.org is a good example, as is his personal example of the way he interacts with existing members who disagree. It is commonplace now that when you encounter something new - a restaurant, a store, a product, a campus club - you google it. You look it up. You see what others have to say. College students have come across Jacob's site this way, and they have chosen to leave the church (or the campus club) as a result. This is exactly what's needed, the way I see it.

So there needs to be more out there with what we have to say about the local church. Use the right keywords. Use the right metatags. So when new people do inevitably look it up, they see real people's real experiences and educated comments about the local church and the abusive teachings, doctrines, and practices. That alone is a huge step up from what the rest of us had.

Hope you post more.

Trapped

P.S. but what's put online also needs to be the right content. Not rage-filled anger and sounding like a lunatic. Not 8 different fonts and outdated appearances. Not rambling about unrelated personal experiences. It needs to be clean, easily navigatable, logical, reasoned, Biblically-based, and condemning the right things - the teachings and the ones who defend the controlling teachings - rather than the general saints as a whole. The saints are the sheep being mistreated by wicked shepherds. Sheep won't respond if the content condemns them directly.

Just my two cents.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Welcome ExChurchKid! (How was that username not already taken??) Glad to see another fellow church kid on this forum.

Just to tie this back to what you are - a church kid - real quick (and again, I'm short on time, sorry), but I wanted to add one thing in case it seemed like I was focusing on the new college students rather than on another equally important group, the church kids. Websites that expose the teachings would serve the church kids, both in and out, just as much as it would the new college recruits, because it's the teachings that enslave and entrap. And it's the teachings that are the psychological binds that tie so many deflated and downtrodden church-kid-adults and keep them judged, shamed, controlled, and dependent, just like you described feeling.

The sheer volume of layers of chains and padlocks that the local church deftly wraps around and closes tightly around its members takes years to unwind and unshackle. I feel like I can write circles around a few of the more major doctrines of error the local church holds to, and yet I still find myself operating according to those same doctrines of error in my daily thought life and action life more often than I'd like to admit. More websites about the erroneous and unbiblical teachings are a critical part of the unchaining process, at least the way I see it, because it 1) says that there are people who speak up when the church life atmosphere is designed to be so opposite to that, and 2) allows for that first crack in the armor that there are people who know "the ministry" and had the same experience growing up as the ones reading the site, and yet see genuine issues with it. For me, it was one crack in the armor - the error of claiming "we are not a denomination" when what we did was so much worse (hyperfocusing on a person-wise) than what we despised the denominations for doing. Once that crack was allowed to exist, I realized that absolutely everything else was up for questioning. And once you can question things, then they all fall apart pretty quickly.

Congratulations, by the way, on becoming free and independent!! [insert confetti emoji here] I totally get what you mean about feeling like it is a unique experience that not many people will get. It's true. Especially once you leave, you don't "fit" with the people still in, and you feel like a weirdo trying to explain to others what your previous life was like and its effects. It's a bit isolating, unfortunately, because there are usually so many things you are trying to sort out and yet may have really no one to talk to about it! You are of course welcome to post here, and there are counselors out there who understand what "abusive churches" are (which is what the local churches are), but it's a rare counselor who has the necessary gamut of skills, training, and personal life experiences who can handle the range of issues that a former church kid ends up having to grapple with. But it's still worth looking for, as far as I'm concerned.

I also am right there with you on feeling abnormal for "not experiencing the Lord, or feeling Him in me", etc. But guess what? I came to find out decades later as an adult that those same church kids I grew up with who I looked at thinking THEY were "experiencing" the Lord when I wasn't myself, are now struggling and tripping up and faltering over the local church just like me. So much of it for church kids was outward appearance while a whole storyline of other thoughts, feelings, opinions, and emotions was going on inside. And like is so typical in abusive churches, no one could or would talk about the truth of what they were really thinking or going through.

The other side is, how can anyone "enjoy" or want to "experience" the condemning, threatening, oppressing "god" of the local church? No wonder church kids struggle so much in that area!! It's not the real God!

I'm also there with you when it comes to "normal fun thing vs ministry/Bible/God". The local church is all about denying yourself when God isn't asking you to deny yourself. The truth is we are supposed to deny ourselves when it's relative to obedience to God, but not just for the sake of denying ourselves any fun when God isn't asking us to. I still have a hard time with "frivolous fun" (games, sports, hobbies, etc) because it's been so hardwired into me that getting any pleasure or enjoyment out of anything is wrong. We were cheated, I'll just say that.

But God takes what others have abused, and renews them instead.

As I said in my previous post, hope you'll post more.

Trapped

[SerenityLives]

Welcome Exchurchkid! You are not alone. I am also a 90s kid who was raised and born in the LC. If you ever want to talk, shoot me a PM. Just letting you know that it was a confusing time and difficult for me when I left as well, it happened in stages, I saw some things wrong when I was in middle school, then high school, then the pivotal moment was in college where I just started attending less and less meetings until almost everyone was used to me being absent. I’m really really happy you are out. when I was 19, I also wanted to tell the whole world, including my parents (my parents already knew that there was something wrong with the church but my mom grew up in it as well and my father was ingrained since college), but tbh I found that you cant really convince the crazy haha. Or even have the litigation money since you know, poor millenials and such. first few years I was just working on myself, exploring other church groups, pursuing my hobbies, even changing my career plans twice to help and give back to the community in other ways, and most importantly, seeking a counselor or talking to ex LCers , especially ex LC kids to normalize your experience. There’s only so much we can do, but I believe that the biggest change to making my family less prone to recruiting me back into the church was seeing me grow and mature into a successful adult and being able to handle all sorts of situations and live in a way that brings you happiness.

[countmeworthy]

Welcome Serenitylives and ex church kid

There are lots of topics to explore here. People are very helpful to answer your questions.

Keep in mind everyone’s experience in the LC is different. In addition, Everyone ‘s level of spirituality is different too. Not everyone is on the same page. Even when scriptures are quoted to express a thought, it is their thought, their insight.

At the end of the day The Holy Spirit of God the Father and Jesus The Son and Savior is our Teacher and our Counselor. He reveals the Word of God to us that we may grow in God’s Love, Patience and Wisdom

Blessings,
Carol

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I found that you cant really convince the crazy haha. Or even have the litigation money since you know, poor millenials and such. first few years I was just working on myself, exploring other church groups, pursuing my hobbies, even changing my career plans twice to help and give back to the community in other ways, and most importantly, seeking a counselor or talking to ex LCers , especially ex LC kids to normalize your experience. There’s only so much we can do, but I believe that the biggest change to making my family less prone to recruiting me back into the church was seeing me grow and mature into a successful adult and being able to handle all sorts of situations and live in a way that brings you happiness.

You are correct SerenityLives one cannot change or convince “the crazies” in the LC. But GOD CAN!! And if they are truly seeking Him, He will set the prisoners free. He did it with you and all of us here.

I commend you for ‘working out your salvation’ through exploring church groups, pursuing hobbies even counseling. I am more than sure Father God is smiling at you.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You are correct SerenityLives one cannot change or convince “the crazies” in the LC. But GOD CAN!! And if they are truly seeking Him, He will set the prisoners free. He did it with you and all of us here.

I commend you for ‘working out your salvation’ through exploring church groups, pursuing hobbies even counseling. I am more than sure Father God is smiling at you.

Hey Carol,
I appreciate the kind words to SerenityLives and myself, but I would request that you be careful with the religious rhetoric. Like you said, everyone's experience and level of spirituality is different. God is not my teacher or counselor, at least not at the moment. I feel no need to "work out my own salvation", and I sure don't feel like any all-powerful entity is smiling at me at the moment. I respect your beliefs, but personally, I'm a bit agnostic after everything I went through growing up. I hope you're right about God convincing the true believers that the LCs are crazy, but my journey of leaving the LCs had nothing to do with God. He did not set me free. In my experience, he was keeping me prisoner and I set myself free. Since not everyone's experience is the same, please don't lump us all into the same boat by saying God set all of us here free. At least, please don't lump me into that boat.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Hey Carol,
I appreciate the kind words to SerenityLives and myself, but I would request that you be careful with the religious rhetoric. Like you said, everyone's experience and level of spirituality is different. God is not my teacher or counselor, at least not at the moment. I feel no need to "work out my own salvation", and I sure don't feel like any all-powerful entity is smiling at me at the moment. I respect your beliefs, but personally, I'm a bit agnostic after everything I went through growing up. I hope you're right about God convincing the true believers that the LCs are crazy, but my journey of leaving the LCs had nothing to do with God. He did not set me free. In my experience, he was keeping me prisoner and I set myself free. Since not everyone's experience is the same, please don't lump us all into the same boat by saying God set all of us here free. At least, please don't lump me into that boat.

ExChurchKid, would you be willing to say more about your experience here? i.e. what is your view of God, how did you arrive at that conclusion, etc?

I'm asking because as a church kid who was saved in the local church, my salvation experience was this:

1. got saved
2. hated God for the next few decades
3. only recently found out that the local church preaches about a "god" that is not of the Bible, and am starting to see there is good evidence He 1) exists, and 2) is totally different from what the local church teaches.

I felt like God had me in a straightjacket for years and years as He gleefully watched me suffer in distress, but that was the local church tentacles choking me, while the real creator God was slowly getting me out of the local church so I could hear about Him in the very place I had been told He wasn't - in "evil Christianity".

Anyway, my purpose isn't to preach at you or evangelize, but just to hear some of your thoughts, experiences, conclusions, because I think a lot of church kids have some very intense feelings about God, understandably so, and I also think it's a good thing to be able to get those feelings/thoughts out, if you are comfortable to.

I would just ask any others reading on this thread not to try to "correct" anything ExChurchkid says in response, if she responds to my question, but just to listen and understand.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Trapped

ExChurchKid, would you be willing to say more about your experience here? i.e. what is your view of God, how did you arrive at that conclusion, etc?

I'm asking because as a church kid who was saved in the local church, my salvation experience was this:

1. got saved
2. hated God for the next few decades
3. only recently found out that the local church preaches about a "god" that is not of the Bible, and am starting to see there is good evidence He 1) exists, and 2) is totally different from what the local church teaches.

I felt like God had me in a straightjacket for years and years as He gleefully watched me suffer in distress, but that was the local church tentacles choking me, while the real creator God was slowly getting me out of the local church so I could hear about Him in the very place I had been told He wasn't - in "evil Christianity".

Anyway, my purpose isn't to preach at you or evangelize, but just to hear some of your thoughts, experiences, conclusions, because I think a lot of church kids have some very intense feelings about God, understandably so, and I also think it's a good thing to be able to get those feelings/thoughts out, if you are comfortable to.

I would just ask any others reading on this thread not to try to "correct" anything ExChurchkid says in response, if she responds to my question, but just to listen and understand.

Hey Trapped,
That's a really insightful question, thanks for asking. I definitely feel a lot of the same things you're describing, although I don't have a problem with Christianity in general. I've been to a few Catholic masses and they're boring and somewhat pointless in my opinion, but they don't make me angry. Same for a Methodist funeral I went to. I just don't like having religion or God shoved in my face. I cant stand listening to the type of praying or pray-reading or calling on the name of the Lord that happens in an LC. The terminology they use still gets to me. I'd say I'm agnostic at the moment, but for some reason I still read my Bible every night (no footnotes ugh), and I pray in my head in the morning sometimes while I'm in the shower or whatever. Mostly what I need from God right now, if he even cares, is to fix the damage. Even if the LCs got everything crazy wrong, I still tried for 2 decades to be a good Christian. I think that should count for something, but I'm left with anxiety, depression, chronic pain, and a severe lack of close family and friends. It really grinds my gears when someone talks to me in a way that attributes beliefs to me that I don't agree with.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

... I just don't like having religion or God shoved in my face. .. Mostly what I need from God right now, if he even cares, is to fix the damage. Even if the LCs got everything crazy wrong, I still tried for 2 decades to be a good Christian. I think that should count for something, but I'm left with anxiety, depression, chronic pain, and a severe lack of close family and friends. It really grinds my gears when someone talks to me in a way that attributes beliefs to me that I don't agree with.

I'm very glad to see some former LC church kids post here. The damage suffered to their humanity, growing up in that environment, was extensive. Most of them were so traumatized by it that they don't want to talk about it, but avoiding the subject entirely may slow the healing.

So - while this is a forum largely populated by Christians who wear their faith on their sleeve, figuratively speaking, it would behoove us all to remember that not everyone thinks exactly the same. In fact, I'd say that this may be an antidote to the "everyone must think exactly the same" mindset that we remember so well.

And I offer my own experience as a representative sample. After leaving the LC physically, it took me years to unpack what happened mentally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. At one point, after years of fruitless church-hopping, I just gave up. I was tired praying to a god that didn't answer. I started to pray one morning, because I was supposed to pray, but instead,I said, "You're fired".

I didn't pray or read the Bible for several years. And they were good years, relatively speaking. Better than the previous ones. Less frustrating. Eventually I realized, that you can't deny your soul-life unless you first have one, and after being generous and selfish with myself, self-indulgent if you will, I got some small semblance of a soul-life, a humanity, a "me", and began to seek again. But it was on my terms, not someone else's. I get to define what the Bible means to me. Of course I still listen to others, but I own the terms of my journey.

Today, I feel that many around me have been conditioned to 'see' what the Bible says, and if it says something other than our conditioning, we look away. The LC is a poster child for this, but it's only an extreme example of a widespread phenomenon. But if one instead looks away from their received conditioning, and starts looking at the actual contents of the scriptural text, a narrative emerges. It can be quite fascinating, really. Happy hunting.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

I'm very glad to see some former LC church kids post here.

Thanks . I'm really glad I found this website. It actually took me far too many years to realize that there were other ex-LC, even other ex-church kids like me out there. And thanks for sharing your experience too. Perhaps I will seek more in the future, but like you said, on my own terms. The Recovery is pretty strong about integrating God into literally every conversation, and making every moment of your life about the churchlife, so I guess I'm pretty sensitive about people talking very religiously towards me, even if it isn't LC-related stuff. I especially hate it (unrelated to this thread, because this is in a sense a forum for talking about religion), when people randomly and repeatedly bring God into the conversation, even outside of the Recovery. Thanks for understanding, aron.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Hey Trapped,
That's a really insightful question, thanks for asking. I definitely feel a lot of the same things you're describing, although I don't have a problem with Christianity in general. I've been to a few Catholic masses and they're boring and somewhat pointless in my opinion, but they don't make me angry. Same for a Methodist funeral I went to. I just don't like having religion or God shoved in my face. I cant stand listening to the type of praying or pray-reading or calling on the name of the Lord that happens in an LC. The terminology they use still gets to me. I'd say I'm agnostic at the moment, but for some reason I still read my Bible every night (no footnotes ugh), and I pray in my head in the morning sometimes while I'm in the shower or whatever. Mostly what I need from God right now, if he even cares, is to fix the damage. Even if the LCs got everything crazy wrong, I still tried for 2 decades to be a good Christian. I think that should count for something, but I'm left with anxiety, depression, chronic pain, and a severe lack of close family and friends. It really grinds my gears when someone talks to me in a way that attributes beliefs to me that I don't agree with.

Hey ExChurchKid,

Yeah, makes total sense, and I understand. Thanks for sharing and explaining. Your thoughts are very normal given what you've grown up in and been through. I was right there in step with you when you said "...if he even cares...". I started a thread on this forum a while back titled something like "How do you know God cares?" because I felt the same way. I personally came to a point a year or so ago where I decided "okay, there has to be a creator God" (what on earth else could be responsible for all of creation, etc?), but I didn't think that that creator God was a caring God at all. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything here, but just to say that I understand.

I'm going to recommend the same thing I've recommended to some other church kids: read books on spiritual abuse. They are the things that helped make the most sense for me of what we grew up in. The two I would most recommend are:

1. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson and VanVonderen
2. Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue

Since you don't like having religion or God shoved in your face, I'll tell you up front that you will encounter some Christian/Biblical language in these books. But I just skimmed through them again and can say that they are both written not in a way to preach AT you, but more to show that abusive churches (which is what the local church is) actually operate contrary to the Bible. The verses and words in the books are used so differently than what you and I grew up in, I don't think it should be triggering or grind your gears as much as LC-speak would. What I'm doing with this recommendation is trying to get you more information that will make sense to you about how a system like the LC works.

You can "look inside" the first few pages on Amazon here:

https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-.../dp/0764201379

https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Spiri.../dp/0830816607

The authors of the first book did an interview, which is in two parts here, if you like listening rather than reading:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGL_Wl7BAfE
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MelXy5Gj7Jc

I'm no doctor, and I'm not qualified in ANY way to talk about your medical or health history, and I'm saying this knowing you might have other reasons for your mental and physical health struggles, but when I hear of a church kid, who might otherwise be a healthy young adult, who speaks of dealing with anxiety, depression, chronic pain, and lack of close relationships, I can't help but think of the local church as at least one source of the issues. It takes an IMMENSE amount of inner emotional energy as a young kid to exist under the weight of what I call "constant waves of condemnation" that come at you from the meetings, the teachings, the serving ones, anything you read from the ministry, and even your parents (if they were staunch local churchers).

Growing up feeling like the God of the universe, who you obviously can't fight against and win, who gets His way "no matter what" (psh, and you want me to believe He "cares"?), who doesn't want you to enjoy doing anything or read a normal fantasy novel or relax and kick back and have fun with friends without feeling bad about it, is like growing up having your soul whipped and slowly crushed year after year. And when you are in a place where you can't speak up, disagree, push back, call out problems, correct errors, or have any effect on wrongdoing, it means your physical body absorbs all the blows, all the inner feelings, all the conflict, all the fear and sadness, all the feelings of helplessness and feelings like God doesn't give a crap about how you feel.

And that can end up manifesting as anxiety, depression, pain, and an inability to be close to anyone. Your entire existence ends up being shackled without a way to do anything.....and as I'm typing that I can definitely understand your urging of "we should do something", in that context. I would just say that if you can read those two books, they might start to help unshackle you and loosen some of the chains. Finding out that the Bible shows pretty clearly that God and Jesus hate the type of things the local church does and teaches was revolutionary for me. I'm speaking more of my mental health there, rather than speaking religiously.

It might be a difficult read due to some of the subject matter, but there is also a great book called "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel Van der Kolk that comes to mind. It's not Christian or biblical or church-related, but is about how trauma, abuse, neglect, etc affect the body. Being a church kid in the local church means that you have almost certainly been abused (spiritual abuse) and traumatized, even if you don't know it.

As an example of that last sentence, just in case it seemed over-the-top: it's a true statement to say that church kids grew up under death threats, either inferred, symbolic, or literal. Most church kids heard enough to understand that if you leave the church, there's a decent chance something horrible will happen to you, possibly even dying. (Not true, of course). Most church kids heard enough to know not to "touch death" (i.e. normal human things, or the truth about the local church like what is on this forum).

Ok. Those are "threats of death - inferred, symbolic, and/or literal". That's not a normal thing for children to grow up under. It's traumatizing, and it's spiritually abusive. These things have detrimental effects on our minds and our bodies.

I 100% understand what you said (somewhere....can't pinpoint where) about being annoyed when people shove God into everything. I remember going on, say, family trips to some national park or place of natural beauty, and being there so glad to be away from the meetings and in a different place, and my parents always had to say something about God which would totally spoil the view I was looking at. Now as an adult who believes in God, I do kind of understand the awe they were probably trying to get across, but man......I just wanted to say "would you shut up about God already? Geez, I hear about Him all the time, can you give it a break? Let me freaking enjoy these mountains without you shoving GOD DOWN MY THROAT!!" I think it's great if adults want to have those kind of conversations among themselves all the time, but kids need to be allowed to be little human kids without everything being spiritualized. There is a caring, healthy way to bring kids to God, and there is a force-fed way of choking them with God. You can guess which one doesn't work.....

Yes, for me, finding out that the local church had grossly misrepresented God certainly helped my view of God as well as my willingness to give Him a chance, but again, I won't get into that.

There is one more thing you said that I want to respond to, but I don't know how to yet. It was this thought of yours: "Mostly what I need from God right now, if he even cares, is to fix the damage. Even if the LCs got everything crazy wrong, I still tried for 2 decades to be a good Christian. I think that should count for something..."

It's a hard thing to respond to, partially because I could totally botch it and make things worse, so I want to think about it some more. But once again, I totally get it. Every word.

[ExChurchKid]

Wow, thanks for the really well thought-out response! I'll keep everything you said and suggested in mind, and I really appreciate your validation of how I feel. Although I do understand that God can be separated from LC, I'm still not really interested in religion or spirituality at the moment. I mostly just want to right the wrongs.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I'm very glad to see some former LC church kids post here. The damage suffered to their humanity, growing up in that environment, was extensive. Most of them were so traumatized by it that they don't want to talk about it, but avoiding the subject entirely may slow the healing.

So - while this is a forum largely populated by Christians who wear their faith on their sleeve, figuratively speaking, it would behoove us all to remember that not everyone thinks exactly the same. In fact, I'd say that this may be an antidote to the "everyone must think exactly the same" mindset that we remember so well.

And I offer my own experience as a representative sample. After leaving the LC physically, it took me years to unpack what happened mentally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. At one point, after years of fruitless church-hopping, I just gave up. I was tired praying to a god that didn't answer. I started to pray one morning, because I was supposed to pray, but instead,I said, "You're fired".

I didn't pray or read the Bible for several years. And they were good years, relatively speaking. Better than the previous ones. Less frustrating. Eventually I realized, that you can't deny your soul-life unless you first have one, and after being generous and selfish with myself, self-indulgent if you will, I got some small semblance of a soul-life, a humanity, a "me", and began to seek again. But it was on my terms, not someone else's. I get to define what the Bible means to me. Of course I still listen to others, but I own the terms of my journey.

Today, I feel that many around me have been conditioned to 'see' what the Bible says, and if it says something other than our conditioning, we look away. The LC is a poster child for this, but it's only an extreme example of a widespread phenomenon. But if one instead looks away from their received conditioning, and starts looking at the actual contents of the scriptural text, a narrative emerges. It can be quite fascinating, really. Happy hunting.

Great post bro Aron. And similar to my exit, and path since. Better articulation. Thanks for expressing it.

[awareness]

I'm completely gobsmacked by this thread, and the resulting openings up.

If I opened up the result would be at least one book.

And speaking of books, does "The Body Keeps the Score" also speak of keeping the good score?

Like Bob Dylan writes, and sings : "Behind every beautiful thing, there's some kind of pain."

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

If I opened up the result would be at least one book.

You should write that book

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

You should write that book

Thanks. If I gathered all of my posts, from exLC forums, I'd prolly have a couple of books.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Wow, thanks for the really well thought-out response! I'll keep everything you said and suggested in mind, and I really appreciate your validation of how I feel. Although I do understand that God can be separated from LC, I'm still not really interested in religion or spirituality at the moment. I mostly just want to right the wrongs.

I'm glad you feel validated. You're feelings are, as I said, very normal.

Since there are some misunderstandings on the forum at the moment, let me say this up front here before I ask my next question: imagine my tone is as if we are discussing this over a cup of coffee, thoughtfully, intellectually, and respectfully.

From my side, I can talk all day long about the numerous wrongs in the LC, but I usually include God in the picture and/or compare things to what the Bible actually says.

I respect that you don't see God in the picture, and that you simultaneously also want to right the wrongs. So we have the same goal, but come from different viewpoints. From your viewpoint, what wrongs do you see that you would like to see righted?

This is a thought exercise for me too, because I'm not used to thinking about it from this angle.

[ExChurchKid]

Trapped,

To be honest, I always imagine your tone as that of a nice coffee shop conversation! If it were completely up to me, we would write a book or a website or something that collates all of our real experiences. Like what Duddy tried in his book, but with real people and real experiences, and preferably without the libel suit part. Or something that would stand up to a libel suit. It would have to appeal to Christians, agnostics, atheists, and everyone in between in order to be effective, I would think. I just want the world to be aware, and perhaps some kids to be saved some suffering. I want our story told and other children to be saved from having to repeat it.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Trapped,

To be honest, I always imagine your tone as that of a nice coffee shop conversation! If it were completely up to me, we would write a book or a website or something that collates all of our real experiences. Like what Duddy tried in his book, but with real people and real experiences, and preferably without the libel suit part. Or something that would stand up to a libel suit. It would have to appeal to Christians, agnostics, atheists, and everyone in between in order to be effective, I would think. I just want the world to be aware, and perhaps some kids to be saved some suffering. I want our story told and other children to be saved from having to repeat it.

Hmm....I haven't read Duddy's book, so I don't know the approach he took. No "look inside" options on Amazon either! As far as real people and real experiences, what you are describing sounds a little bit like what was done about a year ago on www.mylocalchurchexperience.com.

From what I can tell the site seems to have collected about 8 stories and then kind of ground to a halt (although I'm not sure why). Is that kind of collection of experiences the kind of thing you are looking for, or not quite?

What is some of the suffering you want other children to be saved from? Can you give me some examples? If you want me to start, I think one good example is the death threat thing I mentioned earlier. To hear that in any church screams "run for the door!"

[ExChurchKid]

The lack of look inside option is probably because the book was run out of print by the libel suit. I'm looking to get a used copy for myself, but reading the judge's ruling and the wikipedia description of the suit gives me an idea of what Duddy was trying to express. The website is kind of what I'm looking for, but a bit on the religious side. Duddy's book is more along the lines of where I would go. And a book would be more far-reaching than a website, especially if it was aimed at more than just Christians. But perhaps that is just a pipe dream.

I just want other children to be saved from being forced into the LC. Nothing more specific than that, really. There's way too many things that happen to them to be able to target specific sufferings. Sorry, I know that might not be very explanatory! I just thought if knowledge of the Recovery was more widespread, people would be more aware, and perhaps more likely to intervene if they saw a niece/nephew/cousin/grandkid/etc. being forced by their parents. Or, parents would receive backlash from others and perhaps it would open their eyes. I don't really know. But I think a book would be better than nothing. And currently, there's nothing, because the previous attempts were run out of print.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I just want other children to be saved from being forced into the LC. Nothing more specific than that, really. There's way too many things that happen to them to be able to target specific sufferings. Sorry, I know that might not be very explanatory! I just thought if knowledge of the Recovery was more widespread, people would be more aware, and perhaps more likely to intervene if they saw a niece/nephew/cousin/grandkid/etc. being forced by their parents. Or, parents would receive backlash from others and perhaps it would open their eyes. I don't really know. But I think a book would be better than nothing. And currently, there's nothing, because the previous attempts were run out of print.

I have long felt that an easily accessible (e.g., Amazon.com for $7), comprehensive, scholarly/objective yet simple treatment of the LC would be beneficial. You find out your kid isn't coming home for Christmas, but is going to the "college training" - what is that? Your kid probably doesn't know that WL's sons preyed on church members.

If I knew about Daystar and Philip Lee, I would not have joined. I just heard of "rebellions" that were not spoken of openly. I had no ready avenue for information, other than what I was being fed by my handlers. By the time I got clues that something wasn't right, I was "sold out", I was "wrecked, ruined" for the group. Things unfortunately had to get really bad for a long time, before I screwed up the courage to walk.

It would be nice if people had information But could anyone write about them openly without being sued?

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

I have long felt that an easily accessible (e.g., Amazon.com for $7), comprehensive, scholarly/objective yet simple treatment of the LC would be beneficial...It would be nice if people had information But could anyone write about them openly without being sued?

I totally agree with you about the book thing! Regarding being sued, I think as long as everyone is willing to attach their name and legal testimony to their story, and the stories corroborate each other, we would have a good defense against libel. In addition, we could try to find help from a non-profit anti-cult group (or perhaps even something like the ACLU), to help us were we to get sued. We'd have to be prepared, but I think it could work. Also, if we were to set up an LLC, any legal action would be taken against the LLC, and we would only lose the money in the LLC (i.e., book profits), not anything in our own names.

[SerenityLives]

Like Trapped said, I highly recommend Body Keeps Score too. Had to read in my graduate program and it’s good for anyone who have experienced any sort of trauma, including religious trauma. It’s more from a secular, psychological and mental health point of view and has scholarly publications in the back.

I’n interested in the non profit endeavor too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Like Trapped said, I highly recommend Body Keeps Score too. Had to read in my graduate program and it’s good for anyone who have experienced any sort of trauma, including religious trauma. It’s more from a secular, psychological and mental health point of view and has scholarly publications in the back.

It was one of the best books I ever read. Hands down.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I totally agree with you about the book thing!

The best just-the-facts accounts of the LC experience from former insiders are:

1. Indiana (Steve Isitt)
2. Hope (Don Rutledge)
3. John Ingalls
4. Jane Anderson
5. Lily Hsu
6. Jo and Greg Casteel

They are of course subjective, sometimes obviously so, but still they were by people who saw the inside. Start with those, build your case. Then add other voices. They can't sue you for what you saw.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

The best just-the-facts accounts of the LC experience from former insiders are:

1. Indiana (Steve Isitt)
2. Hope (Don Rutledge)
3. John Ingalls
4. Jane Anderson
5. Lily Hsu
6. Jo and Greg Casteel

They are of course subjective, sometimes obviously so, but still they were by people who saw the inside. Start with those, build your case. Then add other voices. They can't sue you for what you saw.

Do you know where we can find these people's accounts?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Do you know where we can find these people's accounts?

All but #5 are complete on the "Writings of former members" section of this forum. The Lily Hsu book is on Amazon.
"My unforgettable memories ". I read it on pdf that was passed around.

Btw, I panned the book at first. But later I realized that it really showed a lot about what it was like there in China. And while WN's confession, made in a Communist show trial, was done to save his own bacon, knowing full well the devastation it would cause. That tells me a lot about who he really was. It was all about "me", all along. And WL's two sons, Philip and Timothy - all about "me". All that self-abnegation was a scam to impose on others.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

All but #5 are complete on the "Writings of former members" section of this forum. The Lily Hsu book is on Amazon.
"My unforgettable memories ".

Thanks, I will definitely take a look! A couple of questions:

1) Were any others besides Lily Hsu's actually published, and available in print for people to stumble on?
2) Are any of these written to appeal to a non-Christian, i.e., that frame things in a scholarly rather than religious way?


I'm sure I'll get some answers when I actually read through the writings, but since you've been so helpful, I thought I'd ask!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

...It would be nice if people had information But could anyone write about them openly without being sued?

Yes. You can write about anything but it has to be the truth. Even if it's the truth, you can be sued. (Anybody can sue anybody for anything.)

If you do get sued, you need to be able to finance your defense through to a jury decision and not have it decided by a default judgment. This was Neil Duddy's problem when he was sued over "The God-Men".

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks, I will definitely take a look! A couple of questions:

1) Were any others besides Lily Hsu's actually published, and available in print for people to stumble on?
2) Are any of these written to appeal to a non-Christian, i.e., that frame things in a scholarly rather than religious way?


I'm sure I'll get some answers when I actually read through the writings, but since you've been so helpful, I thought I'd ask!

John Ingalls, deceased, published Speaking the Truth in Love (pdf on Forum).
Jane Anderson published The Thread of Gold, God's Purpose, the Cross and Me. Send a PM to Thankful Jane to find out how to get a .pdf, or purchase it on Amazon and several other sites. She also has a website.
Hope, Don Rutledge is a forum member but inactive since 2014 but it wouldn't hurt to PM him.
Kyle Yoakum forum member knows Don personally and may be able to forward a message to him, or arrange contact in some way.
Check with Indiana (PM) on any published works.

I don't believe these authors wrote for an audience other than former or current LC members.

Nell

[HERn]

If you click on the paperclip next to my introduction thread you will find a partial doctoral dissertation written by Morris Aron Fred (1968) that discusses a split in the local church that occurred in Taiwan.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

John Ingalls, deceased, published Speaking the Truth in Love (pdf on Forum).
Jane Anderson published The Thread of Gold, God's Purpose, the Cross and Me. Send a PM to Thankful Jane to find out how to get a .pdf, or purchase it on Amazon and several other sites. She also has a website.
Hope, Don Rutledge is a forum member but inactive since 2014 but it wouldn't hurt to PM him.
Kyle Yoakum forum member knows Don personally and may be able to forward a message to him, or arrange contact in some way.
Check with Indiana (PM) on any published works.

I don't believe these authors wrote for an audience other than former or current LC members.

Nell

Also : Story of Watchman Nee Against the Tide
https://www.amazon.com/Against-Tide-...=UTF8&qid=&sr=

[ExChurchKid]

Thanks to all of you for the info! It looks like I might have a gap to fill if I try to get a book out that looks at the LCs from a more secular point of view, with plenty of stories from ex-members (as long as I can find enough willing ones, of course)

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks to all of you for the info! It looks like I might have a gap to fill if I try to get a book out that looks at the LCs from a more secular point of view, with plenty of stories from ex-members (as long as I can find enough willing ones, of course)

I think that a non-apologetics book simply covering what happened, what people saw, what it was like, is potentially very powerful. One example that I like is a man named Daniel Boyarin. He is a Jew who doesn't believe in God, at least in the 'orthodox' sense, but works as a scholar on Jesus and the early church. His perspective is really eye-opening, in the fullest sense of the word. He uses sources. He has read the literature. He knows the early witnesses, and can weave them into his narrative. It is such a powerful experience to read his books. I read "Border Lines" about how early non-Jewish Christians 'invented' Judaism to distinguish what their faith was. They created a caricature, if you will. And then the Jewish sages were forced to argue against that, and created modern rabbinic Judaism as reaction.

If you grew up on WL's "History of the church and the local churches", it's so amazing to read someone who actually uses sources. Assemble all the witnesses, and let the narrative emerge.

Let me indulge, if you will, and circle back to the Lily Hsu book once more. When I read it, I felt that it was a cheap hatchet job. I was not predisposed to be favorable to Watchman Nee, but the account was of a young woman witnessing a Chinese Communist 'show trial' in the mid-1950s, where Watchman Nee confessed to producing pornography. The evidence was suspect , to me - who'd produce pornography and write on it, "this belongs to Watchman Nee" as the ChiComs allege? I was quite dubious. And my counter argument was this - nobody in the Chinese Communist system could plead innocent, mount a defence, call witnesses, argue a case, and be acquitted. You had to admit guilt or be executed. So WN pleading guilty was moot.

But then as time went on, I began to feel that this was still a witness. It was still a voice. The LSM apologist says "This was just a young impressionable girl. She didn't know Watchman Nee." But she describes what happened to her faith as she heard him confess. And like I said, a 'senior co-worker' Ruth Lee also was devastated, as many were. Why? Because WN was their shining star. WN, like WL after him, built a caste system in which the Top Dog, were he to fail, would cause the whole to crumble. So the Top Dog is untouchable. Thus, "Even if he's wrong, he's right" as the LC saying went.

Secondly, it brings up an interesting question that I didn't consider at the time. Either WN lied and confessed to something that he didn't do, simply to save his hide, or he confessed to something that he did, to save his hide. Either way, he put his hide above the flock. He knew full well what would happen to the faith of so many like Lily Hsu and Ruth Lee. It's the Kingdom of Self, with a spiritual veneer. Suddenly, WL putting sons Philip and Timothy into the LC trough to fill their bellies makes perfect sense. It wasn't an aberration at all.

So my point of the story is, seek out as many disparate witnesses as you can. You may not appreciate or enjoy the stories, or agree with their conclusions and explanations, but as you put them together, a sort of mosaic will coalesce and you will see a picture. You'll gain understanding, bit by bit, which will help you heal, and pehaps be a roadmap of healing for others.

(when I say 'you', of course I simply speak to my experience. It may or may not be applicable to others. It's just how I like to write).

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

So my point of the story is, seek out as many disparate witnesses as you can. You may not appreciate or enjoy the stories, or agree with their conclusions and explanations, but as you put them together, a sort of mosaic will coalesce and you will see a picture. You'll gain understanding, bit by bit, which will help you heal, and pehaps be a roadmap of healing for others.

(when I say 'you', of course I simply speak to my experience. It may or may not be applicable to others. It's just how I like to write).

Really good point, and a lot of food for thought, thank you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Really good point, and a lot of food for thought, thank you.

Thank you for the kindness.

More on Boyarin: I kind of missed my point. I was trying to say that for me, reading a non-Christian author using primarily Christian texts to make his case for "what happened" was almost hallucinogenic. It was as if what I'd always seen and heard and assumed to be so, I was now seeing anew, through Boyarin's eyes. It didn't matter, ultimately, whether I agreed with him or not but that I gained new perspectives. It was quite liberating.

That's largely why I advise people today, Read books that challenge your perceptions. Then read books that challenge them. In so doing you'll have a better understanding of why you believe what you do, and not other things.

A big weakness of the LC programme is that they don't allow for such open, critical examination. I think it speaks of the inerent frailty of their position. Last year, the "The Great Rebellion of 2019" was actually a 38 year-old mother of 2, a registered dietition, who posted an open letter on facebook. That was all it took.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

Last year, the "The Great Rebellion of 2019" was actually a 38 year-old mother of 2, a registered dietition, who posted an open letter on facebook. That was all it took.

The Great Rebellion of 2019? Please tell me more.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

The Great Rebellion of 2019? Please tell me more.

I guess it was the spring, maybe April of 2019, a couple named Greg and Joanna Casteel from Tennessee posted an open letter on facebook. "Dear saints in the Lord's Recovery..." Jo grew up in the LC, I think Greg joined in HS or college. They both went through the Full Time Training in Anaheim, and became "working saints" or "community saints" after the training. And then things just got weirder and weirder. They read the Bible, apart from the "interpreted word", and it looked more and more discordant, what they were seeing in the "church life". So they searched online, found out about Daystar, and Philip Lee, and sexual abuse covered over in the LC, and said, "No thanks".

LSM called a special meeting of FTT graduates at the summer training, telling them, "Don't read the letter! It is poison!" etc. All the leaders of the LC were alarmed, making speeches, threatening that the earth would swallow these rebels up. The LC had to start a whole new website, "Shepherding Words.com" to address (or obfuscate) the stuff that the Casteels brought up.

The reaction from LSM leadership to one couple posting on facebook, really shows what kind of realm they were living in.... everyone's like, "NOOOOO!!!!!!" Talk about living in a bubble. The slightest bit of light and just like Dracula - shrieking and waving wildly as the body ossifies and crumbles.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

LSM called a special meeting of FTT graduates at the summer training, telling them, "Don't read the letter! It is poison!" etc. All the leaders of the LC were alarmed, making speeches, threatening that the earth would swallow these rebels up. The LC had to start a whole new website, "Shepherding Words.com" to address (or obfuscate) the stuff that the Casteels brought up.

The reaction from LSM leadership to one couple posting on facebook, really shows what kind of realm they were living in.... everyone's like, "NOOOOO!!!!!!" Talk about living in a bubble. The slightest bit of light and just like Dracula - shrieking and waving wildly as the body ossifies and crumbles.

You make a really good point. Growing up it was all about not being "corrupted", but researching the facts and breaking out of your own little bubble doesn't "corrupt".

Somewhat related, but this line of reasoning takes me to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was it bad for humans to seek knowledge? (Sorry, I know this is a little bit off topic)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

You make a really good point. Growing up it was all about not being "corrupted", but researching the facts and breaking out of your own little bubble doesn't "corrupt".

Exactly. If the truth and facts are what "corrupts" the local churches.....what does that say about what the local churches are protecting or trying to hide?

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Somewhat related, but this line of reasoning takes me to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was it bad for humans to seek knowledge? (Sorry, I know this is a little bit off topic)

ExChurchKid,

So glad you decided to stick around. For reals.

I would say that the garden of Eden story is probably one of the all-time single most botched interpretations that Witness Lee disgraced us with. He twisted it until it is unrecognizable, and used that twisted version to control saints, excuse sin, cover unrighteousness, and oppress many consciences.

It wasn't bad for humans to seek knowledge. It was bad for humans to disobey God.

Knowledge, and distinguishing good and evil, are spoken of as good things in the Bible (or as being bad to NOT have):

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Hebrews 5:11-14
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Witness Lee taught that knowledge was bad/death/poison. But the Bible never says that. Death was not a part of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is what Lee taught. Death was the punishment from God for disobedience.

There are numerous verses in Romans that speak of what the problem was, and I'll spare you from reading all of them, but I'll include two:

Romans 5:18-19
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The problem was not obtaining knowledge, or good and evil being "of death" (they aren't)....the problem was "the trespass" or "the disobedience". Adam and Eve had....probably.....100s or 1000s of other trees to choose from, and God only forbade one of them. God punished them for disobedience, but not because knowledge was bad.

Trapped

[ExChurchKid]

Thanks, Trapped, that's very nice of you to say. I will mention that StG and jigsaw (much more so the former, on the lgbtq thread in alt views, but jigsaw just had to throw something into the libel suit thread after we had gotten things back on track) are pushing at my patience again. I've reported their comments, but...it feels pretty nasty to feel like I have to be nice and play by the rules while they're lobbing unnecessary comments at me and the discussions I'm trying to have.

Thank you for the very well thought-out response, and all the supporting verses (it's always good to see something come straight from the Bible). Follow-up question: why didn't God want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge in Eden?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The problem was not obtaining knowledge, or good and evil being "of death" (they aren't)....the problem was "the trespass" or "the disobedience". Adam and Eve had....probably.....100s or 1000s of other trees to choose from, and God only forbade one of them. God punished them for disobedience, but not because knowledge was bad.

Trapped

It's really hard to understand the garden story without using symbolism. To me all that happened with the wrong tree is that Adam and Eve grew up from innocent childhood and became adults.

And as far as God being only upset with disobedience, the tone has "them" being upset that Adam and Eve "became as one of us." (and not any sign that "they" were the trinity -- we don't really know who "us" was or is).

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Trapped

ExChurchKid,

So glad you decided to stick around. For reals.

I would say that the garden of Eden story is probably one of the all-time single most botched interpretations that Witness Lee disgraced us with. He twisted it until it is unrecognizable, and used that twisted version to control saints, excuse sin, cover unrighteousness, and oppress many consciences.

It wasn't bad for humans to seek knowledge. It was bad for humans to disobey God.

Knowledge, and distinguishing good and evil, are spoken of as good things in the Bible (or as being bad to NOT have):

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Hebrews 5:11-14
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Witness Lee taught that knowledge was bad/death/poison. But the Bible never says that. Death was not a part of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is what Lee taught. Death was the punishment from God for disobedience.

There are numerous verses in Romans that speak of what the problem was, and I'll spare you from reading all of them, but I'll include two:

Romans 5:18-19
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The problem was not obtaining knowledge, or good and evil being "of death" (they aren't)....the problem was "the trespass" or "the disobedience". Adam and Eve had....probably.....100s or 1000s of other trees to choose from, and God only forbade one of them. God punished them for disobedience, but not because knowledge was bad.

Trapped

I would like to add, after having puzzled over these questions myself.....the elements that caused Adam and Eve to disobey, included doubting God. Choosing not to trust Him, to reject His instruction to them as a lie, and instead, trusting the evil one, to their own peril.

'Without faith we cannot please God' [Hebrews 11:16] 'Faith was attributed to Abraham as righteousness' [Romans 4:9]. Not just to Abraham but all of us. What 'the law' failed to accomplish, is accomplished by us having faith.

Faith is the only antidote to doubt. It is the risk we can choose to take to 'undo' the breakage of the fall. Adam and Eve 'broke faith' with God by their trusting the words of the serpent over His words to them.

I believe God put the two trees at the center of the garden because they were both critically important for Adam and Eve. The tree of life, his love and gift of life to us, His sustaining power for us. And to know good from evil. I think God would have had a plan to teach this knowledge to Adam and Eve Himself, as He had lost one third of all the angels of heaven already. They had fallen in a very similar way to Adam and Eve, trusting Lucifer over God, choosing to follow him instead in rebellion, and being lost to God forever.

Two of our biggest lessons of this life are 1. to 'trust God with all our hearts, lean not into our own understanding' [Proverbs 3:5-6], and 2. Know good from evil, from the perspective of God's training and guidance, not ours or satan's. [As per Trapped's scripture references above]. Only then can we know God and that there is no darkness in Him and no shadow of turning. We have to know what darkness (evil) IS to be able to know God as not!

It is the end goal of this forum....to help us all here to distinguish good from evil: God's true character from the LC system, in this particular case. It makes this journey worthwhile, and as an eternal lesson, the cost though great, worth bearing.

[jigsaw44]

@ExChurchKid, I am more than willing to have a conversation with you on any personal issues you with me on private msg. What ever concerns, comments, and questions you may have for me- I am more then willing to take in a private manner. That way we can get to a middle ground on your issues on this forum so far.

In fact would you like me or SOG to deliver some oatmeal and macadamia cookies in order to alleviate the indignant mood you have obtained upon your experiences so far? I am pretty sure we would not mind at all doing such a menial task in order to compensate for your troubles! We wish for you to have best the experience on this server and we would love to carry on a little extra burden to slowly walk in your delicate home made out of the most pristine thin and fragile glass with the most greatest of modesty. If touched without the most delicacy, this house would shatter and collapse like a house of cards that got swept by a zephyr. Hopefully I learn to one day operate in such a delicate home and perhaps others shall to!

- We deeply care for you Exchurchkid and just want to be welcomed in your home, that is made out of the most thin and frail glass out there.
- In the name of love and care we welcome you.

Sincerely,
Jigsaw44

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's really hard to understand the garden story without using symbolism. To me all that happened with the wrong tree is that Adam and Eve grew up from innocent childhood and became adults.

And as far as God being only upset with disobedience, the tone has "them" being upset that Adam and Eve "became as one of us." (and not any sign that "they" were the trinity -- we don't really know who "us" was or is).

Wait, I'm confused, can you elaborate? Becoming an adult was bad in God's view? Or becoming God-like was bad? Gaining God's knowledge, I guess?

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Curious

I would like to add, after having puzzled over these questions myself.....the elements that caused Adam and Eve to disobey, included doubting God.

It is the end goal of this forum....to help us all here to distinguish good from evil: God's true character from the LC system, in this particular case. It makes this journey worthwhile, and as an eternal lesson, the cost though great, worth bearing.

Thanks for the perspective. Why is doubting God bad? Or why was it bad, in Eden?

Also, I believe the end goal of this forum is for ex-LCers to express their experiences and vent in a safe place, but not necessarily end up with the same beliefs as everyone else on this forum. Also, to ask questions about God in a safe non-LC space, and yes differentiate the God of the Recovery from the other types of God that people believe in, but not necessarily ending up with a certain set of beliefs. Mods, correct me if I'm wrong? I really am trying to understand this forum.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

@ExChurchKid, I am more than willing to have a conversation with you on any personal issues you with me on private msg. What ever concerns, comments, and questions you may have for me- I am more then willing to take in a private manner. That way we can get to a middle ground on your issues on this forum so far.

In fact would you like me or SOG to deliver some oatmeal and macadamia cookies in order to alleviate the indignant mood you have obtained upon your experiences so far? I am pretty sure we would not mind at all doing such a menial task in order to compensate for your troubles! We wish for you to have best the experience on this server and we would love to carry on a little extra burden to slowly walk in your delicate home made out of the most pristine thin and fragile glass with the most greatest of modesty. If touched without the most delicacy, this house would shatter and collapse like a house of cards that got swept by a zephyr. Hopefully I learn to one day operate in such a delicate home and perhaps others shall to!

- We deeply care for you Exchurchkid and just want to be welcomed in your home, that is made out of the most thin and frail glass out there.
- In the name of love and care we welcome you.

Sincerely,
Jigsaw44

Thank you, but no, anything you want to say to me you can say in public. I take issue with your response #103 from the libel suit thread. You threw in an unnecessary defense of how vitriolic Ohio was being, after UntoHim had already gotten us back on track and warned the ones who had derailed the conversation in the first place. God, why is this forum full of hypocrites??? StG freaks out if anyone so much as questions his precious self-declared angelic character, and Ohio throws insults everywhere at the slightest provocation, and rushes to defend his bro StG if anyone even dares to disagree with him. Such a representation of everything wrong with religion. Why am I even here? I am unwanted, by people who claim they love God, so what does that say of how God feels of me?

[ExChurchKid]

Trapped, please help me

[jigsaw44]

@exchurchkid you sure you don't want cookies? Would you prefer the classic chocolate chip flavor of cookies or perhaps something like lemon or sugar cookies? We could mail any kind of cookie you want that is reasonable to obtain!!!

[HERn]

I don't think doubting God is bad in Eden or anywhere else. Maybe it's OK to doubt God until we don't?

Wow jigsaw... are you sure you’re not projecting? A little self reflection might be in order. People like you and Ohio and StG constantly hijacking threads and being obtuse is the reason so many end up lurking instead of participate in discussion here. 10 mins browsing this forum is enough to scare any church kid looking for answers off. This should be one of the most valuable tools/resources out there for people who are at the start of their deconstruction journey. Thank you exchurchkid for all of your valuable insight and contribution and for standing up to the bullies.
From another millennial, female ex church kid.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks for the perspective. Why is doubting God bad? Or why was it bad, in Eden?

I am thinking about the answer here....First offerening...

We were created to be in relationship with God. When we don't trust /doubt to the point of deciding against/ rebel against that 'person' for no good reason, someone we are in a loving relationship with, we destroy the foundation of that relationship. We cannot have an intimate relationship with someone we don't trust. We have voted to trust instead, in this case, God's enemy. They betrayed God and the foundation of trust He provided them.

That's one thought.

My other thought is, according to the Christian beleif, God is the source of all that's good. Satan is the deceiver, he kills, steals, destroys, and is the manifestation of evil. They aren't just two different people, absolutes are at stake. To bail on one and sign up with the other, is a significant choice. God warned them the consequence of taking that action would be that death would enter their world. They disregarded the seriousness of it, took the risk that God was lying. This betrayal was over something important, not trivial.

The last thought I have is, the temptation to greatness that the serpent offered. 'You will elevate yourselves to equality with God of you 'outsmart' Him and act against His counsel'. It was the offer of glory or greed to become greater than God made them that ensnared them to lust for this power and status. To resource themselves outside of His knowledge or provision to get there. (The question I have with this one is, if they were made perfect then why would an offer that uses the hook of pride and vanity even work on them? I don't know, except that freedom of choice exists in us, to even choose pride and vanity. Maybe Trapped or someone else here can provide some insight on this part) .

Certainly it was an unfriendly, perhaps hostile act, to one who had provided lovingly, everything they could ever want or need, in an utopian environment. It was a betrayal of the love He bestowed apon them, so it mattered. And it instantly changed them into liars, blame-shifters and deceivers themselves. No longer trusting they became untrustworthy, This was the fruit.

Then the other vices rode in.

Thats my general understanding of it. Hope it is interesting to you.

I am happy to explore these questions without requiring you or anyone else to agree or disagree. We each have the freedom and responsibility to work it all out for ourselves, at out own pace, and to our own conclusions.

[jigsaw44]

Unregistered Poster number 55, make an account and join the forum! Don't worry little miss we won't bite ya, its an anonymous internet forum, join with and type away with your zeal and robust persona! Everyone is free to hop in on any thread and express their opinion and choice of words. No exclusivity here, but be warned there is a catch.
There is a thing called humanity and mankind has various people with different forms of thought, opinions and expression. In life you will encounter people who are the complete opposite of you and perhaps these differences create a taste of dislike. It's not like you can just snap your finger and kill off all these people, so you just gotta deal with em and this goes on all sides. Ahhhh humanity, the species of many minds yes?

Isn't if beautiful we have a species that is so diverse in the state of mind and expression of will? Even those whose minds are combusted with the step of a tongue and whose hearts boil upon the spice of conversation


A forum of free speech, come and join!!!!
Sincerely'
Jigsaw

[jigsaw44]

Happy Holidays @everyone

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow jigsaw... are you sure you’re not projecting? A little self reflection might be in order. People like you and Ohio and StG constantly hijacking threads and being obtuse is the reason so many end up lurking instead of participate in discussion here. 10 mins browsing this forum is enough to scare any church kid looking for answers off. This should be one of the most valuable tools/resources out there for people who are at the start of their deconstruction journey. Thank you exchurchkid for all of your valuable insight and contribution and for standing up to the bullies.
From another millennial, female ex church kid.

Unregistered,

I agree that any church kid looking for help or answers would be scared off right now. I am, however, so happy to know another ex church kid is on the forum, and am glad you piped in. Hopefully past threads, where people had their heads screwed on more tightly, have been a help to you.

I have no idea why anyone is piling on new members with biting sarcasm like they are the enemy, or why some don't understand that things like "just enjoy Christ" are the very same types of over-spiritualized and unhelpful comments used as weapons against very real hurting people in the LC, and still feel like weapons outside of it. Hoping I'll wake up tomorrow and find out this insanity was just a bad dream.

So glad you are an EX church kid!

Trapped

Trapped, thank you for your welcome. Information on this forum has been very helpful at times over the last few years. It’s a shame that certain people make it so off putting for many others to participate as I am certain that there are many more church kids out there that stumble upon it.. Unfortunately it often reflects the very same attitudes from the LR that we’re trying to find healing from. We’ve already spent The entirety of our formative years being manipulated by men of a certain demographic on how to behave, think, feel, dress, marry, raise children etc and don’t have any energy left for people who wish to be version 2.0.

[SerenityLives]

ExChurchKid, since we are young, we can look to publishing a book in the future about a compilation of our experiences. And we can publish under pen names too. Or we can wait until our parents are in their 70s and do it. We can also recruit other millennial ex church kids to pitch in their stories. I think this would be nice and different compared to the usual one-person biographies that others have published over the years. We can also make the writing more simple and entertaining (but serious) so that it can reach wider audience. We can incorporate poetry and anecdotes, funny stories, etc and artwork (I can do some illustrations) as well. My personal mentor/therapist has always told me I should publish my own biography but I also think committing to a project like this will be worthwhile. What do you think? We can pitch it to the fb group once you have your account ready to go.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Don't worry little miss we won't bite ya

That is a blatant lie. You and others I've already mentioned bite all the time. Others don't want to register because they don't want to deal with the BS that gets lobbed at them once they have a username and therefore can become a target.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

There is a thing called humanity

Yes, and you don't have any.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

A forum of free speech

It does indeed seem this is the case, since the vitriolic posts from religious ones (again, those I've already mentioned, yourself included) don't seem to be deleted, and those responsible aren't banned. I've been trying to be respectful, but since UntoHim won't delete my account, and respect doesn't seem to be a valued virtue to some on this forum, I'm done caring about that any longer. So I will use my free speech to tell you that you can take those cookies you'd like to bring to my glass house, and shove them into that hole that you speak from, which obviously isn't your mouth. I'm not as fragile as you presume, and quite capable of standing up for myself. I was simply standing down out out of respect for the productivity of this forum. But there is something seriously wrong with this forum, and while I applaud those who are able to ignore the negativity, I cannot. Perhaps it's a personality flaw. But something is wrong, and as long as I am a member, I will try to make it right. Go get started on those cookies bud.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Trapped, thank you for your welcome. Information on this forum has been very helpful at times over the last few years. It’s a shame that certain people make it so off putting for many others to participate as I am certain that there are many more church kids out there that stumble upon it.. Unfortunately it often reflects the very same attitudes from the LR that we’re trying to find healing from. We’ve already spent The entirety of our formative years being manipulated by men of a certain demographic on how to behave, think, feel, dress, marry, raise children etc and don’t have any energy left for people who wish to be version 2.0.

Very, very well said. And assuming you're the same unregistered poster as earlier, I want to thank you for your kind words about my contribution to the forum.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

ExChurchKid, since we are young, we can look to publishing a book in the future about a compilation of our experiences. And we can publish under pen names too. Or we can wait until our parents are in their 70s and do it. We can also recruit other millennial ex church kids to pitch in their stories. I think this would be nice and different compared to the usual one-person biographies that others have published over the years. We can also make the writing more simple and entertaining (but serious) so that it can reach wider audience. We can incorporate poetry and anecdotes, funny stories, etc and artwork (I can do some illustrations) as well. My personal mentor/therapist has always told me I should publish my own biography but I also think committing to a project like this will be worthwhile. What do you think? We can pitch it to the fb group once you have your account ready to go.

This sounds like an excellent idea. Thank you so much for seriously considering my idea! I agree about posting something on the FB group once I've got that all set up. In the meantime, if the forum here can get its **** together, perhaps I'll create a separate post just about our planned book.

[jigsaw44]

@Exchurchmember oh little miss there is a lot to say, let me address you with the following points.

1. You misunderstand the glass house analogy =), Ill say the more you post on this forum, the more the analogy comes true.

2. This forum welcomes people of all sorts, even current LC members who vigorously defend the LC when they want to contribute (users like evangelical for example, although she hasnt been active from 2018). What im trying to say is that you have this sense of entitlement that everything has to revolve around your expectations on every facet of speech.
You claim you dont want to associate yourself with certain users, yet you mention their name from thread to thread? These people havent even mentioned you since you asked them not associate themselves with you. But you cant seem to keep their names out of your mouth. In the real world, do you want to know what most people would do if you were to mouth off their names? They would confront you and an issue would start. If your goal is to avoid certain people- why would you keep mouthing off their names?
You keep stalking people from thread to thread and getting mad they are expressing their rightful opinions on this server. They dont have to align with your views at all and sometimes their opinion would anger you, that is the diversity of humanity.
I dont know how you are going to handle current LC members who pop up in here, if you lose your marbles over Sons of Glory. Like honestly he is very sweet compared to other folk who pop up in here time to time. Toughen up miss, glass houses do not last long in this world =).

3. Ohio Post #89 on the libel suit thread. Honestly in my rightful opinion, it sort of seems like you wish this to be some sort of despot authoritarian forum that has no true expression of thoughts and opinions. Even on this thread, how you claim you wish certain users to be unjustifiably banned because you don't like what they say or what they represent. To add to pile of nonsense, you somehow barge in here trying to paint this image on what the server should be and how your views and opinions are the best standard of what this website should cater to?
- Let me make it clear, this server primary function is to have an open discussion on the lords recovery and that include discussion on the church itself as in institution, its doctrine, its interpretation of scripture, its way of life etc. The best way to have these discussions is to have multiple views from all facets of thoughts and we have pro LC people on here and very anti LC people on here, then there is people in the middle somewhat.

- If you think SonsofGlory and myself are quote on quote "aTaCkInG" you- you are not going to last very long with some other people. To add more detail, outside of a few people on this server, you look kind of silly insinuating a ban and or censor for SonsofGlory. SonsofGlory is man with 2k+ post to back his reputation of respect, kindness, and tolerance. Within your 70+ post, just look at the picture you have painted for yourself @exchurchmember.

4. This is an open discussion forum, if you were an admin with no checks and balances, In my opinion this server would look like the book 1984 full on, with the only opinions and discussion allowed are those that cater to your glass house. Exchurchmember you are a person has escaped the LC and seem be getting through in life, be strong and grow up and be capable of having full fledge discussions as any reponsible adult should be. This authoratarian, I want everyone who does not align with me to be banned/censored mentality is honestly an inferior trait in my rightful opinion.
In fact, those inferior traits describe the LC fully. What do you think Local churches do when they encounter anything that they deem "pOiSon" or "aMbItIoUs" or even "dIvIsIve"? We all know what they do when they encounter anything that speaks out against them. You might not realize it, but in a certain way, you reflect the traits of the very institution you and many other people on this website, disagree with.

5. Conclusion- People you disagree with and or like are goign to continue to pop in threads and express their views and beleifs- deal with it like an adult and feel free to engage in a dialogue that is respectable, civil, and passionate.
Mentioning others people name in your mouth, is just going to increase the change of drawing them to you- if you want to decrease your chances of interacting with these people, then STOP MENTIONING THEM DIRECTLY ON MULTIPLE THREADS =). If you want to confront these people and spit out their names, then be ready girl be strong and ready and put on some big girl pants and prepare for a civil/proper functioning conversation between adults (and teens perhaps).
- This is not 1984, this a free forum. You said you want this "fOrUm" to get their s*** together. well @exchurchmember, how about you get some of your s*** together to.
Every post you make will be looked at and an image of you will be created, reputation is important on online forums since its the main thing they have to work with since they dont know you personally.

- I honestly want you participate in this forum, but you are making it kind of hard for lots of other people to participate. You do know that sonsofglory and Ohio represent the persona and character of a lot of people on this server right? Lots of people are similar to SonsofGlory and Ohio, and even me. So when you make these opinions and remarks of religious people and people who speak of God, you are directing those comments to a lot more people than you think honestly. I'm sorry but those are a majority of people on this website, in which you make it hard to have a full fledge discussion with a diverse set of minds.

- You are making it a bit hard dear, your glass house is very hard to approach without it being shattered due to the slightest touch of contrasting words. if you wish to stay as you are now, feel free and honestly it is at your discretion to be who you want to be. But be aware, people are watching and painting a picture of you.

6. "Your reputation precedes you" (famous adage).

7. This post is done in the name of rightful opinion and freedom to express ones thoughts and concerns.

[jigsaw44]

We care for you girl but damn you are making it hard.

[jigsaw44]

I'm sorry if my previous post is harsh but I had to let it out, I wanted to pm you but you don't want any pms for some reason. You meet some good people on here and continue to contact them and do what you need to do. Proceed how you wish from this point on, at your discretion. You can derail me and call me names In order to express your frustration, you can agree with me, or you can resent me- the choice is yours dear.

Regardless, I said what I said. Stick around on these forums but just be aware it's not always going to go your way. This forum is the only place people have to discuss the local churches and it is a forum that is going to have to house alot of different people with different mind sets. Miss, continue to enjoy staying here even if it means just talking with a few people. I truly do care for you and wish for you to prosper and fulfill your desires. I wish the best of luck to you exchurchkid.

Sincerely,
Jigsaw44

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

@Exchurchmember oh little miss there is a lot to say, let me address you with the following points....

jigsaw44, who do you think you are? You joined recently and you're already jumping on members, even members that grew up in the LC and were abused and are still being abused, and now abused out here, even by you.

XCK may be sensitive, due to what she grew up with and in, but anyone on this forum casting any kind of aspersions at her should be ashamed of themselves ... including you.

I don't know if you're male or female, but you strike me as acting like her angry ex-husband.

If you want to pick on someone, pick on me. I've got tons that you can pick on. Ask anyone.

I'm sick and tired of females being pushed out of this forum.

[jigsaw44]

Ok awareness Ill take a shot at ya.

1. If you describe post 63 as being "aBuSivE", I dont know what to tell you to be honest. The fact that you are throwing that label around- speaks for itself honestly.

2. What is your obsession with gender? I was not even aware of ECK gender until you keep on mentioning it along with some other users. My entire post had nothing to do with gender at all. It was proper etiquette and conduct on a forum, that applied to all individuals no matter the gender (as it has no relevance what so ever). You keep acting like there is some grand persecution of women on this server. People don't give a darn on the gender a person is on this forum. There is both men and women on this server who fall under anonymous usernames to discuss the local churches for the most part. No one cares what gender you are for ones participation on this forum. Idk even know personal details on an overwhelming majority of people on this server and it does not matter one bit- its not relevant at all. The only situation where gender is relevant, is if the topic pertains to it one way or another. Even in those threads, there isnt some grand persecution at all............ There is always civil discussion in relations to topics specifying gender, like "the role of the women in the LC". Threads like that are informative and productive in knowing a crucial aspect of LC lifestlye. Idk you trying to make this image of women being pushed out of this website. We have a ton of men and women on this forum and people on this forum could care less about your personal details.

3. Post 63 was a truthful statement that emphasized how to behave and interact on a public forum. Gender had no part of it whatsoever and can no way be centered around it unless skewed in the most unorthodox way. It applied to anyone whether male or female, it does not freaking matter what sex a person is. The value of being humble, respectful, and thoughtful of one another's opinion in a form of civil discussion- is a principle that should be valued universally (who cares on ones gender in regards to matters such as this). The goal of post 63 was to cater to having productivity on an online forum and to point out what happens/ and what traits lead to unproductivity on a public forum.

There are gonna be threads on or topics in which gender is of significance, but I'm sorry, post 63 had nothing what gender whatsoever and certainly was not "aTtAcKiNg" anyone- it was proper critique and rebuttal that was in proportion to what EXC was spitting out, tbh it was def much less. EXC is the only user advocating for what she desires. Am I going to get beheaded for critique?

4. As for am who? I am an individual who wishes to express his rightful opinion, just as you and any other user on this server. But there has to be limitations and when people go beyond those limitations- unproductivity ensues and the forum becomes no more than a circle fest of the same 2 or 3 people smacking their lips to each other.
- I was being neutral for darn long and had was so humble, others was to. It might not have been the help you were looking for EXC, but the users were genuine in their intent. They even stopped when you asked them to, but you just had to keep putting their name your mouth and rail on them, even conveying heck I would go as for as advocating for the censor/ and or ban of certain users. These users are sweet souls and they dont need some pressure or fear from other people in even expressing their opinions on this forum.

Sincerely,
Jigsaw

[jigsaw44]

Listen awareness, I want to get back to normal. I just want to participate in threads and have fluid discussions on topics that interest me. This back and forth of this particular kind of argument is unfortunate and Is the lowest form of conversation. I just want to move on and many people have. EXC can return or not- its up to her, but you are nuts if you thought this forum would be in healthy condition if behavior like that became the norm among users. I wish the best to you all- but I had to express my opinion.

Sincerely,
Jigsaw

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Listen awareness, I want to get back to normal. I just want to participate in threads and have fluid discussions on topics that interest me. This back and forth of this particular kind of argument is unfortunate and Is the lowest form of conversation. I just want to move on and many people have. EXC can return or not- its up to her, but you are nuts if you thought this forum would be in healthy condition if behavior like that became the norm among users. I wish the best to you all- but I had to express my opinion.

Sincerely,
Jigsaw

Okay bro/sis, it's just that you sounded like God coming out the whirlwind in Job, coming out to give Job some kicks too.

Let's try to keep the gals coming back. This site is too male dominated.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay bro/sis, it's just that you sounded like God coming out the whirlwind in Job, coming out to give Job some kicks too.

Let's try to keep the gals coming back. This site is too male dominated.

You bring up a good point bro awareness - maybe UntoHim needs to institute an Affirmative Action program to insure a fair amount of females is on here. (guess I'd be outa here if that happened & all y-alls could really miss me then )

Jigsaw, your lack of emotional intelligence and inability to see how you contradict yourself/your words apply to your own behaving is completely blowing my mind right now. I told myself I wouldn’t engage with you any longer but .. just .. wow. Also did you know that over explaining oneself could be a sign of insecurity about our own position of things? Not necessarily saying this is the case for you. Just pointing it out. Also if gender doesn’t matter on this forum then please stop calling females “little miss” in a condescending way.

How is there supposed to be any fluid discussion if certain people on this forum can’t refrain from being an avalanche of word vomit. It just ends up becoming an echo chamber for whoever can yell the loudest and longest.

Same unregistered ex church kid as before

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***MODERATOR NOTE**** OK "Same unregistered ex church kid as before" consider this as your parting shot....unless and until you come and register.***

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[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

You bring up a good point bro awareness - maybe UntoHim needs to institute an Affirmative Action program to insure a fair amount of females is on here. (guess I'd be outa here if that happened & all y-alls could really miss me then )

Don't be silly. More girls wouldn't push you out.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It’s a shame that certain people make it so off putting for many others to participate as I am certain that there are many more church kids out there that stumble upon it.. Unfortunately it often reflects the very same attitudes from the LR that we’re trying to find healing from. We’ve already spent The entirety of our formative years being manipulated by men of a certain demographic on how to behave, think, feel, dress, marry, raise children etc and don’t have any energy left for people who wish to be version 2.0.

I suspect that there are thousands who grew up in the LR and left, totally unprepared for the world but determined not to look back, like Lot's wife. They do a search on the web, find this forum, see people harping at each other over the Trinity or "modes" or whatever and they're like, "No thanks". Completely sensible and valid reaction. Why go back to version 2.0?

Many on here, yours truly among them, are not "good discussion forum material" but simply use the forum to sound off. But the ex church kids are especially not meant to fit in here. Maybe they don't want to discuss, they want to shout! They don't want to reflexively say, "amen" they want to say, "Naff off!" And we should give them LOTS of grace to find a safe space to speak up here. Many of them now want nothing to do with God, associating it with years of unrelieved trauma that they (hopefully) left far behind them.

The WLMCP* was so subtle, for all its amateurishness at times, in that it weaved 'orthodox' Christian tropes with mind-control techniques, so many of these ex LC children are simply allergic to what most would call 'normal' Christian discussion. Yet they passed thru the fire and deserve a place at the table. Whatever place that is, is theirs to determine, not ours.

They were told that Mommy & Daddy made a choice, now they can't make any choices but have to be sold out for the ministry. Or Grampa got some light back in 1968, now they have to shut up and sit in some dumb meeting, day after week after year. Give them some space. They need it. Even if they choose to say things we don't always agree with, let them feel free to speak up. They have a right to vent, to heal.

Jesus healed people, fairly indiscriminately. He didn't just heal the "good material" for some Greater Cause. His greater cause was the human being, every single one of them who came in front of him and asked for help got it. Even the Syro-Phoenician woman, who wasn't supposed to be approaching a "good Jew" like Jesus. Yet he cared, he reached out, he healed. He taught, "Love those who can't/won't love you back." The whole thing w Jesus was the formerly dispised/rejected/shunned "Other" was now "Us". Yet we too easily set up our arbitrary comfortable fences to keep out the "Other".

How many thousands of ex Church Kids have stumbled on this site and said, "Why bother". They might get some helpful info but why bother with the abuse? Who needs LR 2.0?

All of us have been abused, and have also been abusive. I'm sure I have.

*Witness Lee Mind Control Programme

[SerenityLives]

Thanks Aron, this is exactly how I feel when I’m on the main forum.
For jigsaw, if you have “nothing good to say, dont say it at all”, from Thumper, the cute little rabbit from Bambi.
One last thing, if this forum isnt built for ex church kids, shouldnt we be making it more friendly instead of keep following in our old ways to push the young out. After all, I’m sure the younger ex Lcers make up half the ex LC population. I get that this forum was created a while ago by old timers but it should evolve with the times, or it wont stay alive once you guys are all gone to heaven (excuse my insinuations here). I care about all points of view but there should be a line drawn into what is actually said and what is thought. And tbh, having some sister or younger generation moderators wouldnt be a bad thing. I think Ex church kid was trying to miderate because there was no moderation in what could be said against her. we’re trying to break away from the MOTA cycle right?

[aron]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

One last thing, if this forum isnt built for ex church kids, shouldnt we be making it more friendly instead of keep following in our old ways to push the young out. After all, I’m sure the younger ex Lcers make up half the ex LC population.

I was in a LC started in the Great Migration out of Elden Hall. Many young families with children, dozens of them all told, and when I went back years later, they were all gone but maybe 2 out of more than 50. The rest were "Not meeting" as the parents dejectedly reported. A few had been siphoned off to serve the ministry. The vast majority were gone as gone. That's just one "locality"... we're probably talking thousands of young children who weren't allowed any semblance of a normal childhood because they were being groomed for the Cause, then who got summarily spit into the World because they couldn't Make It. They were thoroughly indoctrinated to be isolated and fearful of the Evil World, run by Satan, then suddenly comes the troubled and uncertain teen years and then just as suddenly they're pushed out into the World because they weren't fit for God's Plan.

Don't you think they deserve to have some kind of voice? I do. Don't you think they matter? I do. We're only as self-actualized as we allow others around us to actualize themselves. If I'm the only person getting healed, then I'm not getting healed.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Thanks Aron, this is exactly how I feel when I’m on the main forum.
For jigsaw, if you have “nothing good to say, dont say it at all”, from Thumper, the cute little rabbit from Bambi.
One last thing, if this forum isnt built for ex church kids, shouldnt we be making it more friendly instead of keep following in our old ways to push the young out. After all, I’m sure the younger ex Lcers make up half the ex LC population. I get that this forum was created a while ago by old timers but it should evolve with the times, or it wont stay alive once you guys are all gone to heaven (excuse my insinuations here). I care about all points of view but there should be a line drawn into what is actually said and what is thought. And tbh, having some sister or younger generation moderators wouldnt be a bad thing. I think Ex church kid was trying to miderate because there was no moderation in what could be said against her. we’re trying to break away from the MOTA cycle right?

I've not been a part of this thread much, but I looked it over to try and see the basic flow of things. From my perspective, I don't see the "abuse" that some on here are claiming that other posters are allegedly guilty of. I've also looked at other threads where this was claimed, and I'm sorry, I just don't see it in at least in 90% of the instances. I'm open to some self-examination here, but how it seems to me is that offence gets taken which is in the much-ado-about-nothing realm. But then the reaction to this perceived offence is way over the top as in, "You're attacking me & way out of line!" To me it's a Straw Man Fallacy*, and this type of thing is often what makes effective discussions come to a screeching halt or go sideways. I don't know what it stems from - oversensitivity perhaps? (Ohio might call this "cancell culture" I guess)

I do want to understand it better and we are all perhaps (including myself) looking through eyes that have logs in them, accusing others as being the ones having logs in their eyes. (see Matthew 7:5)

And thanks, SerenityLives, for demonstrating a little thicker skin, which I think is prudent, as we all need to operate on here without getting ourselves overly offended.

* Straw Man Fallacy: occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

BTW - maybe we should start a thread (Alt Section?) where we could dissect the perceived "offending statements" more closely and get a better understanding of where each one is coming from. . .

[Trapped]

aron, thanks for being a voice of reason and compassion. I've been in knots for days but have such a non-confrontational personality in real life that I've repeatedly deleted before posting numerous drafts where I've let it rip but then been concerned about "offending".

UntoHim, would you consider retracting your "final shot" post? In other words, don't close the gates on ExChurchKid being here. I've gone back and read the two threads of contention on the main forum. I have no dog in the fight and have no partial feelings towards one "side" or the other, except having the ability to understand personally myself where ExChurchKid is coming from.

The beginnings of the issues just seemed to be Sons to Glory repeatedly throwing in overly spiritual phrases even after ExChurchKid made it clear that they hurt her. Plennnnnnty of church kids are "triggered" by those kind of spiritual phrases, since they are often used in the local church to dismiss people's hurt.......you know.....that whole "peace, peace, when there is no peace" verse. If people here can't understand that basic of all basic points of pain for church kids, then this forum is useless to about three generations. On her introductory thread in particular, she has the right to request (which she did so politely) that people not throw spiritual phrases at her, and Sons to Glory just kept doing it. He was in the wrong.

Things went downhill when Ohio and jigsaw jumped in to StG's defense, which shouldn't have happened. I fully agree that StG should not need to censor himself everywhere on the forum, but there was the initial mistake on one thread and it snowballed. And because of the piling on, it then seemed like ExChurchKid was the enemy, when she's not. And since she didn't get the necessary understanding up front, it meant that other spiritual comments on other threads felt like more of the same insensitivity, rather than just a normal part of the forum. From my view she has reacted because she's mostly gotten punches rather than care so far. I've had countless pleasant exchanges with Ohio and StG and jigsaw for a while, but I would react the same way if they did to me what they did to ECK.

To all, this is my perspective, and I think it's a fair one. What I'm seeing is abuse to someone seeking relief from abuse. Some of you have no idea what that does to a person.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

On her introductory thread in particular, she has the right to request (which she did so politely) that people not throw spiritual phrases at her, and Sons to Glory just kept doing it. He was in the wrong.

I was a little confused by this. Actually to clarify, her first thread is this one, which was started on 11/16, and I only made a comment on it starting today. The rather tumultuous thread in question that you speak of is the "Thoughts on the Libel Suit," started by her on 11/18 in the "Oh Lord, Where do we Go from Here" section. It's interesting to look at that thread to see how communication can go sideways . . . (I already apologized for my part)

[UntoHim]

Ok, now I'm officially confused (like that's real hard to do)

The person who posted in #71 named themselves as "same unregistered church kid" who made posts #53 and #58. This is not the same person as our registered member ExChurchKid.

I don't mind people coming and making a couple of posts as an unregistered guest (in fact I have encouraged that for years) it's just that things can get a little confusing for the other viewers and forum members. Furthermore, if someone is going to engage in some significant dialogue over an extended period of time then I think it's best for all concerned that they register with a UserName.
-

[jigsaw44]

What do you mean this forum is not for LC kids? I have seen some current LC teens on here and they participate just fine. The problem is not age it's persona. IDC how old someone is, if they lose their marbles and start throwing labels around and want people to get banned/ censored for every contrasting word that comes out- then a problem ensues.

Stop making this about being "LC kids friendly", it has nothing to do with that, as LC kids come on here all the time. The problem arises when someone wants to be a full despot when it comes to words being spoken.

- with people like EXC how would you even define something being said as mean? It seems most oppossing opinions are "mEaN". Whatchu really prob mean is just shut up and take a bunch of crap or kiss ass. Which is the only 2 things you can really do with those individuals. I tried the neutral game in the other thread and she just wanted put my name in her mouth in other threads. Same with other users she supposedly had issues with, just kept on stalking users from thread to thread and calling them out on her threads with the usual, I'm offended so censor and or ban this individual.

I understand she has been through a lot, but so has other people on here, it does not give anyone a free pass to do what ever. I tried to be tolerant and neutral, but I got fed up. It seems as though being neutral was not gonna make her stop. Now she has stopped after being called out- the deed is done. This forum is for everyody, not just for her.

[jigsaw44]

Idk I keep falling for this conversation. Agree or disagree I'm moving on, feel free to go full force on me, cause other threads look good right now so I'll departure and take a look at other things going smoothly.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I've not been a part of this thread much, but I looked it over to try and see the basic flow of things. From my perspective, I don't see the "abuse" that some on here are claiming that other posters are allegedly guilty of. I've also looked at other threads where this was claimed, and I'm sorry, I just don't see it in at least in 90% of the instances. I'm open to some self-examination here, but how it seems to me is that offence gets taken which is in the much-ado-about-nothing realm. But then the reaction to this perceived offence is way over the top as in, "You're attacking me & way out of line!" To me it's a Straw Man Fallacy*, and this type of thing is often what makes effective discussions come to a screeching halt or go sideways. I don't know what it stems from - oversensitivity perhaps? (Ohio might call this "cancell culture" I guess)

I do want to understand it better and we are all perhaps (including myself) looking through eyes that have logs in them, accusing others as being the ones having logs in their eyes. (see Matthew 7:5)

And thanks, SerenityLives, for demonstrating a little thicker skin, which I think is prudent, as we all need to operate on here without getting ourselves overly offended.

* Straw Man Fallacy: occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

BTW - maybe we should start a thread (Alt Section?) where we could dissect the perceived "offending statements" more closely and get a better understanding of where each one is coming from. . .

I think this is a good idea on Alt Views. But nonetheless, if some Ex LcChurch kids are viewing it as offence, we cant just discount their feelings about it based on strawman fallacy. Their feelings are as valid. This is the point I’m trying to get at. It doesnt hurt to be more sensitive to their pleas. after all, they werent listened to in the Lc and we ought to listen to them on here, or how are we any better than the LC?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

What do you mean this forum is not for LC kids? I have seen some current LC teens on here and they participate just fine. The problem is not age it's persona. IDC how old someone is, if they lose their marbles and start throwing labels around and want people to get banned/ censored for every contrasting word that comes out- then a problem ensues.

Stop making this about being "LC kids friendly", it has nothing to do with that, as LC kids come on here all the time. The problem arises when someone wants to be a full despot when it comes to words being spoken.

- with people like EXC how would you even define something being said as mean? It seems most oppossing opinions are "mEaN". Whatchu really prob mean is just shut up and take a bunch of crap or kiss ass. Which is the only 2 things you can really do with those individuals. I tried the neutral game in the other thread and she just wanted put my name in her mouth in other threads. Same with other users she supposedly had issues with, just kept on stalking users from thread to thread and calling them out on her threads with the usual, I'm offended so censor and or ban this individual.

I understand she has been through a lot, but so has other people on here, it does not give anyone a free pass to do what ever. I tried to be tolerant and neutral, but I got fed up. It seems as though being neutral was not gonna make her stop. Now she has stopped after being called out- the deed is done. This forum is for everyody, not just for her.

Apparently the millenials have a different mindset than the others on here. I’ve seen it over and over again. This cannot be discounted. Sure you can be straightforward with your views but I’d say at this point please leave her alone. I got stressed over reading responses (not just yours) to her posts. She is just trying to stand up for herself.
Now can we get back to her initial topic? I think she has pointed out something worth discussing.

[SerenityLives]

I have to add to this. Jigsaw has called exchurchkid to put on her “big girl pants” in his previous post. How is this not sexist? Awareness and I have know she was a sister from Post 1. Post 1!!!!!! Untohim, I think you should censor some registered folks instead of just telling unregistered folks to register. Play both sides and be a goddamn (sorry Stg) moderator for gods sakes.

“You do know that sonsofglory and Ohio represent the persona and character of a lot of people on this server right? Lots of people are similar to SonsofGlory and Ohio, and even me.” if this were a true statement, I’m outta here but I’m not.

Also “your reputation precedes you”? rly? you dont know ex church kid like I know her. I met her IRL, in childrens meeting. Just stop it, the more you talk, the more it makes me want to punch something. I’ve never been this angry, not even at Ohio.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

This sounds like an excellent idea. Thank you so much for seriously considering my idea! I agree about posting something on the FB group once I've got that all set up. In the meantime, if the forum here can get its **** together, perhaps I'll create a separate post just about our planned book.

Lets do it before we die!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I was a little confused by this. Actually to clarify, her first thread is this one, which was started on 11/16, and I only made a comment on it starting today. The rather tumultuous thread in question that you speak of is the "Thoughts on the Libel Suit," started by her on 11/18 in the "Oh Lord, Where do we Go from Here" section. It's interesting to look at that thread to see how communication can go sideways . . . (I already apologized for my part)

You are right; I read both threads one after the other and didn't mentally delineate where you made your spiritual comments. It was on the libel thread. The issue, and I'm speaking as a church kid, is that you kept throwing spiritual phrases at her directly, even on that thread, even as she made it clear that she herself didn't like it. I'm saying this as a fellow believer myself, but for church kids who have been hurt by the local church to the point where they don't feel like God cares at all (think about that for just a second.....can you imagine feeling that way?) to repeatedly have "Praise the Lord" and "Christ is our hope of glory!" and "He loves us!" and "now we know how to pray for you" and all that kind of stuff....even after she made it clear she would rather not have that sickly spiritual christian-ese language directed AT her......is insensitive, thick-headed, deaf, and drives people away. You invalidated the person behind the words. She said she doesn't think God cares, isn't a believer, doesn't feel like she'd been given a free gift. And you responded by essentially telling her she actually was a believer, and the best thing is to take problems to Jesus (the very one, btw, she feels doesn't care at all). Deaf, to say the least. I am fine with your suggestion to take this particular topic (what is considered "insensitive" for church kids) to another thread, if anyone thinks there is value to it.

By the way, I'm not trying to keep beating you over the head about it; as you said, you apologized. I'm trying to explain so the issues church kids come to the forum with are better understood.

And I'll also tone down what I said about the forum being useless to three generations of church kids. I think it's more accurate to say it's useless to three generations of any church kids who come here who are truly struggling with their faith and don't see any reason to believe that God cares, and for whom overly spiritual language shuts them down. The church kids in that category is not an insignificant percentage. The ex-LC member facebook page is replete with members who are still "triggered" by that kind of speaking. What happened to "being all things to all people"?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

What do you mean this forum is not for LC kids? I have seen some current LC teens on here and they participate just fine. The problem is not age it's persona. IDC how old someone is, if they lose their marbles and start throwing labels around and want people to get banned/ censored for every contrasting word that comes out- then a problem ensues.

Stop making this about being "LC kids friendly", it has nothing to do with that, as LC kids come on here all the time. The problem arises when someone wants to be a full despot when it comes to words being spoken.

- with people like EXC how would you even define something being said as mean? It seems most oppossing opinions are "mEaN". Whatchu really prob mean is just shut up and take a bunch of crap or kiss ass. Which is the only 2 things you can really do with those individuals. I tried the neutral game in the other thread and she just wanted put my name in her mouth in other threads. Same with other users she supposedly had issues with, just kept on stalking users from thread to thread and calling them out on her threads with the usual, I'm offended so censor and or ban this individual.

I understand she has been through a lot, but so has other people on here, it does not give anyone a free pass to do what ever. I tried to be tolerant and neutral, but I got fed up. It seems as though being neutral was not gonna make her stop. Now she has stopped after being called out- the deed is done. This forum is for everyody, not just for her.

Seems you have info about members that only Untohim could know. So who the hell are you, really, slinging your weight around like you are a moderator?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

You are right; I read both threads one after the other and didn't mentally delineate where you made your spiritual comments. It was on the libel thread. The issue, and I'm speaking as a church kid, is that you kept throwing spiritual phrases at her directly, even on that thread, even as she made it clear that she herself didn't like it. I'm saying this as a fellow believer myself, but for church kids who have been hurt by the local church to the point where they don't feel like God cares at all (think about that for just a second.....can you imagine feeling that way?) to repeatedly have "Praise the Lord" and "Christ is our hope of glory!" and "He loves us!" and "now we know how to pray for you" and all that kind of stuff....even after she made it clear she would rather not have that sickly spiritual christian-ese language directed AT her......is insensitive, thick-headed, deaf, and drives people away. You invalidated the person behind the words. She said she doesn't think God cares, isn't a believer, doesn't feel like she'd been given a free gift. And you responded by essentially telling her she actually was a believer, and the best thing is to take problems to Jesus (the very one, btw, she feels doesn't care at all). Deaf, to say the least. I am fine with your suggestion to take this particular topic (what is considered "insensitive" for church kids) to another thread, if anyone thinks there is value to it.

By the way, I'm not trying to keep beating you over the head about it; as you said, you apologized. I'm trying to explain so the issues church kids come to the forum with are better understood.

And I'll also tone down what I said about the forum being useless to three generations of church kids. I think it's more accurate to say it's useless to three generations of any church kids who come here who are truly struggling with their faith and don't see any reason to believe that God cares, and for whom overly spiritual language shuts them down. The church kids in that category is not an insignificant percentage. The ex-LC member facebook page is replete with members who are still "triggered" by that kind of speaking. What happened to "being all things to all people"?

Thanks for the reply. After considering this a bit and praying about it, I'm not going to try and fix this or myself . . . because I can't. Rather, I chose to take Paul's admonition to forget those things which are behind, and that includes statements made on this thread, both from myself and others. (and this is after I made the suggestion earlier that we do an Alt Section thread to examine these things to understand better what happened - see my post #76)

I'm not trying to be flippant, rather this is a reminder to me to give each and every post to Him, before hitting the "Enter" button. I don't always do that well, and so yes, sometimes things come through that appear insensitive. I've had a number of times where after asking, "Lord, what do you think of this post I'm ready to make?" that I've been constrained from making a post, and numerous times where I've modified a post.

BTW - I've also been told by other forum members that I had nothing to apologize for in that thread. But I am also sensitive to the matter of being "tone deaf." My flesh would want to keep going at this whole topic, but again, I think it's best to forget it and leave it to Him.

[Sons to Glory!]

Just want to convey a little observation that I thought interesting. This morning, before I even got out of bed, I was considering this thread before the Lord. I told Him, "Whatever you want to do with that is fine with me, I give it to you." I then thought that perhaps UntoHim would just kill the whole thing (especially after fiery comments one poster made), and I realized that I was at peace with whatever God wanted to do through our moderator.

When going online I discovered that the last dozen or so messages of the regular forum thread had disappeared. I said, "Amen Lord." I then had a little realization that this was just a small picture of how God will cause the old heavens and earth to be dispensed with and consumed by fire, before giving us a new heaven and earth. As 2 Peter 3:10-11 says, "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves . . . " We are encouraged not to look at the things which are going away (like Lot's wife). None of it will survive - the good (man's best), the bad (sin) and the ugly (death & man's worst) will be gone. All that will remain is what our loving God intended, and it will all be ours! (1 Cor 3:22)

[awareness]

Why is it moved? That I strike a nerve calling Jigman out?

[ExChurchKid]

Hi all,
I would like to address a few things. First of all, thanks to all of you who defended me, and restored a tiny bit of my faith in the forum, by speaking the truth. I will mention that it took a lot of courage to log back on and post this. I took the time to draft this response and summary of how I feel beforehand, so I request that any other commenters please take the time to really consider what they want to say. I do see a lot of well-thought-out responses already, so I very much appreciate that. And some not-so-well-thought-out responses as well, so...I guess I shouldn't have expected too much.
Everything that jigsaw44 has said on this thread has cut me to the bone. Not because it is true, but because it is so blatantly false. Getting offended and blowing up at the slightest disagreement? Trolling through threads looking to attack those I disagree with on the forum? Utterly false, and I dare say, a much more accurate description of what jigsaw44, SonstoGlory, and Ohio do. Now, I will qualify this statement by saying that my only experience of these three is within the threads I have posted or commented on. The main ones are this thread, the libel suit thread, the I don’t understand this forum thread in Alternative Views, and the LGBTQ thread in Alternative Views. I have never begun a conversation by responding directly to any one of these three. In each case, I responded to them after they entered into a discussion I had started. It is true, I have publicly wondered why some of their comments haven’t been deleted, or even why they haven’t been banned. I am willing to revise the banning statement to say perhaps banned from certain threads? I am sure that is something UntoHim could arrange. Or perhaps, as with the women-only forum, we could have a non-envangelicals-only forum. Why does one not already exist? Perhaps that speaks to our moderator’s evangelical bias. But more on that later.
I think it is fitting that things ended up coming to a head on this thread, my original testimony thread, because I would like to add to my testimony. After leaving the Recovery, for a while I thought there was no one else who had experienced what I had, and that I was alone in my unique experience of growing up in the LCs and then leaving. It took me five years to realize that wasn’t true. I found this website. I posted my introduction, and received some really great validation of everything I had been carrying around inside me for five years, or you could say even for over two decades, if you include all of the times I felt I couldn’t express myself in the LC. Then I posted the libel suit thread, because I was angry that the Recovery had such power, and I thought we, who knew the truth of it, could do something. Christian, agnostic, athiest, or any other faith; I thought it wouldn’t matter if we were all united in our agreement that the Recovery was abusive to its members, and especially to those who are forced by their parents to be a part of it. Now, let’s revisit that thread, where the animosity began. In response to being a tad confused by Ohio’s assertions of kidnappings of LC members (Nell has since provided evidence, and Ohio himself added more detail, but at first I found it hard to believe), and us getting a little side-tracked, I posted this:
“I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, but yes, I would happily sue my parents, if I could find a lawyer to take the case. Anyways, I think we're going down a bit of a nebulous rabbit hole here.”
I was attempting to gracefully bow out, but I think this is the point at which I unintentionally hit a nerve, and he posted:
“You asked questions about books, lawsuits, and how we were affected. I tried to share a perspective from someone who lived thru it. Sorry if that is a nebulous rabbit hole to you. Perhaps others can help you.”
He wasn’t insulting per se, but he does sound a bit offended and patronizing. So I ignore it, the thread continues, jigsaw44 asks a very insightful question that I happily answer, and there are some disagreements (which are allowed in a public forum as long as they remain respectful). I think a nerve is hit in SonstoGlory when Nell says:
“So you think this forum is a "magnet" for airing grievances about something and a place for people to complain?

This forum is a safe place for wounded believers to come and say what they need to say. We try to help them...not pass judgment on them for being "negative". Suffering abuse IS negative.

Why are you here?”
SonstoGlory responds (this is just a part of his comment, and the only part that was a little questionable):
“So why am I here? I wonder a little about the tone of this inquiry . . . however, choosing to believe you meant it in the most innocent way, here's my answer. “
Again, not insulting per se, but a bit offended and patronizing. I think these little clues show us when nerves are hit. Then, the animosity comes out later. Not from SonstoGlory, who, props to him, gracefully bows out with:
“I believe I didn't communicate well and the basics of what I was attempting to convey was fairly misunderstood . . . not that important.

We move on. Sorry. “
But, from Ohio:
“Here we go again. Forum cancal culture on full display. Others ganging up on you to force you into submission and rally the troops to humiliate you? Seriously? There was nothing in your comments that should be apologized for. And now you are scrutinized for WHY you are here?

Hello folks, SonsToGlory doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is one of the kindest brothers around. He loves the Lord and His body. He is only here to help.

On the contrary, he often gets pushback because he is not harsh enough on this forum towards the LC system. Imagine that. Please pass the irony.”
Ohio’s comment, in defense of SonstoGlory, is where the animosity begins. So I ask you to consider; where did the animosity start? With me? No. It started when nerves were hit in SonstoGlory and Ohio, and the reaction was disproportionately de-railing and contentious, exactly as jigsaw44 accuses me of doing. Here, as a side note, I will mention that it seems that the three I speak of take issue with me as a person, whereas I only take issue with their words and actions. We don’t judge people for who they are, but for what they do and say. Otherwise, we would never be able to revise our judgments. For instance, SonstoGlory apologized near the end of the libel suit, so at that point, I revised my thoughts on him.
But back to the thick of the thread. The animosity comes out again in response to my repeated attempts to request that the preaching end:
“I'm not a believer. God has no love or capability for me or my situation, if he is even real. Prayer does nothing in my experience, so what I need isn't prayer. I need you to accept that not everyone is a believer and that's okay”
“I am not a believer. I think what you are saying is false. You are free to have it be true to you, and I will not force my agnosticism on you, but to me it is false. Take your religiousness elsewhere and drop it. By forcing it on me, you are hurting the very type of person you claim you want to help. I have received no free gift and how dare you presume I have? If I am pushed much farther by the religion in portions of this forum, I will not be so nice about my agnosticism any longer. “
Back to Ohio (this is a summary, there are of course comments in between these comments):
“Under normal times, this vitriol would get you banned. STG never "forced" anything on you. He was completely kind towards you. You are completely free to ignore any comments about the love of God towards you by him or me or any other poster. But that does not give you a license to disrespect those whom you dislike or disagree with.

Agnosticism means that you don't know anything about God or care too. That is your prerogative. But it also seems like you don't know anything about STG either. Keep acting this way and you will lose your supporters too.”
I said nothing disrespectful, unless in Ohio’s mind, disrespectful meant disagreeing, which again is something jigsaw44 is claiming as a quality that I have (I will mention, Ohio has completely backed off lately, so I appreciate that). Meanwhile, jigsaw44 is repeatedly insinuating that something is wrong with me and SonstoGlory is only trying to help me, and that I have a hole in my heart, and that I need to speak to Trapped to get that fixed (side note, I was having pleasant conversations with Trapped, but those conversations were not about how to ignore derailing of discussions in the forum). Nell asks me to downgrade my description of what SonstoGlory is saying from hypocritical to tone-deaf, which I do. He posts another tone-deaf comment, which I call out, and at that point Ohio says:
“Have you ordained yourself as the forum speech-Nazi?

STG was gracefully backing out of the discussion but you still took a parting shot.”
This cut me to the bone, as jigsaw44’s comments have in this thread, because it was both false and hurtful. So I decide to leave the forum:
“Congratulations Ohio! I'm done. You hurt me to the point of wanting to leave this forum. Isn't that what you wanted? I'm sure that makes you feel so powerful and Christ-like. Have fun injuring future ex-LC-raised-kids. Jesus will be so proud.”
Clearly, I came back later, after I received some support from other members of the forum, and SonstoGlory apologized. Then, based on his accusing me of refusing help in his comments in this thread, I believe I hit a nerve in jigsaw44 with this:
“You have repeatedly stated that I have a hole in my heart and that I need help. Please stop insinuating that I need help. I am asking you respectfully. I have not asked for help in this thread, only for discussion regarding the libel suit. I am conversing with Trapped about certain things, and I am happy with how that is going. “
He agrees, I thank him, and that is that. UntoHim posts a warning that any further off-topic comments on that thread will be deleted. Jigsaw44 posts:
“The way he is using Nazi in this regard is just a reference to the connotation of being overly authoritarian/control freak. It's like when people use the term "grammar" Nazi when referring someone who persecutes people who don't have the utmost highest standard in language/literature. I can see how people will take it negatively and maybe overthink the use of it. I am not taking sides here and taking a stance on his statement, I'm simply just want to clear the air and make clear he is not trying to directly call you a supporter or sympathizer for the national socialist party of the German empire in the 1930s-40s.............

Ohio prob is a little aggrivated from the interactions from exchurcmmeber and himself but Ill let him speak for himself since he is more than capable of doing so. “
I report it to UntoHim for being off-topic, and it isn’t deleted. That frustrates me. Then, I come across something I want to post to the LGBTQ thread, so I post it. SonstoGlory at some point jumps in with some slightly off-topic stuff about Christ, and after some back and forth of me asking him to stop, I post (not understanding how he could continue to act the same way after the libel suit thread apology):
“It isn't a Christian forum. Unless I'm missing something, it is a Local Churches forum. Also, it is a place for logical, productive discussion. You are neither being logical, nor participating in productive discussion.

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one, and to be proud of it, but it isn't okay to whip it out in public and start waving it around, and it especially isn't okay to shove it down anyone's throat.”
Personally, I think that was the most respectful way I could get him to understand what he was doing. He posts:
“LC, Christian, whatever.

Nobody is shoving anything down your throat. You seem to have an extreme visceral and emotional reaction to anybody sharing anything of their faith. (If someone's faith is real to them, then wouldn't that just come out pretty naturally, openly and frequently?)

You are welcome to tune out things you see on here, and if you don't like what I say, then just ignore it and don't reply to me. Of course, maybe I can't see the speck in your eye for the huge log in my own . . . (or is it the other way around?)

In other words - lighten up and perhaps be a little less sensitive, okay?! “
I reported it. It was insensitive, and just a repeat of the libel suit thread, but perhaps more insulting. It wasn’t removed. So with all of this going on, in this thread (which has now been moved to Alternative Views...why exactly?) Trapped mentions they’re glad I stuck around. I say:
“Thanks, Trapped, that's very nice of you to say. I will mention that StG and jigsaw (much more so the former, on the lgbtq thread in alt views, but jigsaw just had to throw something into the libel suit thread after we had gotten things back on track) are pushing at my patience again. I've reported their comments, but...it feels pretty nasty to feel like I have to be nice and play by the rules while they're lobbing unnecessary comments at me and the discussions I'm trying to have.



Thank you for the very well thought-out response, and all the supporting verses (it's always good to see something come straight from the Bible). Follow-up question: why didn't God want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge in Eden? “
Jigsaw44 sees it, and all hell breaks loose on this thread. I mention his name once, and tell him I take issue with his specific response in the libel suit thread after UntoHim’s warning, and he loses his marbles, just as he accused me of losing mine. Yet I am the one who reacts too strongly? Who creates roadblocks to productive discussion? It is so ridiculous that it’s hurtful. I would like to repeat what I said earlier in this thread to jigsaw44, because I mean it:
“Thank you, but no, anything you want to say to me you can say in public. I take issue with your response #103 from the libel suit thread. You threw in an unnecessary defense of how vitriolic Ohio was being, after UntoHim had already gotten us back on track and warned the ones who had derailed the conversation in the first place. God, why is this forum full of hypocrites??? StG freaks out if anyone so much as questions his precious self-declared angelic character, and Ohio throws insults everywhere at the slightest provocation, and rushes to defend his bro StG if anyone even dares to disagree with him. Such a representation of everything wrong with religion. Why am I even here? I am unwanted, by people who claim they love God, so what does that say of how God feels of me? “
Shortly after I saw his first essay on what’s wrong with me, I turned off PMs and notifications, logged out, and lost a little more faith in God and Christians. This is after asking UntoHim to delete my account and when he refused, to at least ban me so I could be done with this forum. For some reason, I was lacking the self-control to stop caring about the forum, as long as I was a member. Only because UntoHim refused and I saw others come to my defense am I back, and only to post this. Even now, SonstoGlory is attempting to make all of this about God.
It is easy for God to become something to hide behind, so you don’t have to examine your words and actions too closely. It causes people to lose introspection. I think that is what is happening in this forum, sometimes. In addition, as previously mentioned, we have a moderator who is biased towards evangelicals. SerenityLives was right when she said I was attempting to moderate for myself, since UntoHim was not doing it for me. Unless UntoHim agrees to make more moderators, or start moderating more fairly, or we as the members somehow figure out how to take moderation into our own hands, I do not want to waste more time and energy here. I am tired of seeing comments that make my blood boil, and provoking disproportionate responses when I attempt to restrain myself and address them with respect. I am tired of getting comments from SonstoGlory that make me feel like I'm still in the LC, and that would be considered extremely disrespectful if he was peddling anything other than Christianity in this forum. Jigsaw44 claiming to remain neutral until he couldn’t take my responses anymore? How false! It was the other way around. In addition, was Jesus respectful when he threw the tax collectors out of the temple? I would say no. Yet he’s the same man who claimed whatever anyone did to the least member he would consider as being done to him. I think this speaks to the balance between respect, protecting the vulnerable, and righteous indignation. This is my righteous indignation. UntoHim, if this is an evangelical forum, then at least be honest about it. But I would ask all of you evangelicals here to consider, what picture do you paint of the Christ you claim to follow, when you speak the way you have spoken to me on this forum? When you hurt the least among you?
Well, thanks for reading. My PMs and notifications are still off. SerenityLives and awareness know how to contact me if things improve.

[awareness]

ExChurchKid, I am so happy to have you on this forum. And I'm sorry it feels like you've been tossed into a Lion's den.

But you are just what LCD needs. We need ex-church kids out here and we need to listen listen listen to them. Same goes for the gals.

We've got way too many swinging penises out here.

So I thank you for spilling your guts ... and taking us down a few notches. We need more of you, and more SenertyLives too.

The irony is, it's almost like you need to have balls to last.

I could say more, and likely will. Or maybe we need to dust our feet off.

Your post left below.
Harold
--------------------------------------

I’ve attempted to register an account but admin seems to be in no rush. Who knows if this post will make it through seeing as apparently my last post was the last one I was allowed.

There is something very wrong with adults who cannot respect someone’s boundaries even after they have been clearly stated and laid out for them clearly multiple times. How they are oblivious to this being a form of abuse is beyond me. Forcing religion onto someone again and again after they have repeatedly stated no is like being spiritually molested. It sounds extreme but maybe that’s what it has to be likened to to get it though their heads. This has already been the case for our entire lives as church kids in the LR. It is straight up spiritual abuse and gaslighting plain and simple. Church kids are beginning their own journey of finally having the freedom to find out who they are and figure out what they believe in on their own terms. The bible bashers on this forum need to understand they are not doing themselves or Christianity any favours with their behaviour. They are only pushing people further away from Christianity and seem more interested in stroking their own spiritual ego/gaining Jesus brownie points in the short term than genuinely caring for the well-being of recovering church kids.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Trapped, thank you for your welcome. Information on this forum has been very helpful at times over the last few years. It’s a shame that certain people make it so off putting for many others to participate as I am certain that there are many more church kids out there that stumble upon it.. Unfortunately it often reflects the very same attitudes from the LR that we’re trying to find healing from. We’ve already spent The entirety of our formative years being manipulated by men of a certain demographic on how to behave, think, feel, dress, marry, raise children etc and don’t have any energy left for people who wish to be version 2.0.

I have been watching-on here from the side-lines. But I do want to say something now.

Thank you, younger generation, ECK’s, for persevering with your message. Though it’s a bit raw and messy, this is the way towards a breakthrough of sorts, in mutual understanding. IMO.

The older generation who have paved the way by learning the harm, then setting up this forum, have done so in recognition that this information is important for the wellbeing of anyone and everyone who has been hurt by the LC.

However, as they are, in the main, individuals who have either maintained or returned to their fundamental Christian faith, this factor has been part of their motivation, and part of their conviction. That is to say, unpacking and unravelling the ways the true message of the bible has been distorted and re-aligned to ‘endorse’ WL and his various, personal agendas is one main theme of this forum. As is obvious I know. However, they have meant no harm in this, its their (mine too) comfortable place.

However, an important ‘blind spot’ has been identified in this thread. In the comradery and enthusiasm of unpacking the false doctrines together, being free to discuss our faith openly is a very normal part of our discussions. We did not know until now, the triggering effect this has the potential to have on the younger generation. To learn that it actually keeps some or potentially many, ECK’s from signing up and entering the discussions, and/or puts ECK’s right off is an important thing to recognize. And well worth being aware of. it is certainly not at all intended. It may seem trivial to long-time posters, who, like me, love to discuss faith. However, these discussions look very different to those whose spiritual abuse is raw. To become aware of, and able thereby to validate and be sensitive to those who are ‘triggered’ by religious talk could really help this forum to be a helpful place to many more individuals. In turn, helping it to achieve its goals, especially towards supporting ECK’s and younger generation.

After all, to serve the demographic speaking out in this thread, is to listen and be prepared to think of ways to create a suitable space that does not talk Christian-ese at them. And realize this is very important. Even if Christian doctrine is discussed, to be done so in a way that does not cross boundaries. Being informed and in mutual understanding about what those boundaries are. I think this is a great development!

I know how off-putting Christianity is when delivered in a 'religious spirit' from my own personal history. I recognized that religious tone taking over in my meetings with LC'ers and that contributed to my ceasing to meet. If conversations here are perceived in that tone by those whose only experience has been in such an atmosphere, then no wonder it becomes a non-starter. I get it.

We are perhaps, guilty of insensitivity.

[SerenityLives]

I just want to say one thing. I’m sad we pushed XCK away. It seems she spent a lot of time to write her last response.

Secondly, something needs to be changed. Last time, I posted my testimony on here, it also got delegated to Alt views because of just one component- the lgbtq component. I dont know about you all, but when we (the younger generation) have our testimonies thrown below grounds, it’s an insult and makes us not want to share our testimonies in the first place on here.

I guess the best strategy then would just post our testimony and then leave and not reply to any rebuttals. But that doesnt seem right either.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Curious

We are perhaps, guilty of insensitivity.

Hear! Hear! Amen to that!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I just want to say one thing. I’m sad we pushed XCK away. It seems she spent a lot of time to write her last response.

Secondly, something needs to be changed. Last time, I posted my testimony on here, it also got delegated to Alt views because of just one component- the lgbtq component. I dont know about you all, but when we (the younger generation) have our testimonies thrown below grounds, it’s an insult and makes us not want to share our testimonies in the first place on here.

I guess the best strategy then would just post our testimony and then leave and not reply to any rebuttals. But that doesnt seem right either.

It's sad ... and not right. It hurts my soul.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for the reply. After considering this a bit and praying about it, I'm not going to try and fix this or myself . . . because I can't. Rather, I chose to take Paul's admonition to forget those things which are behind, and that includes statements made on this thread, both from myself and others. (and this is after I made the suggestion earlier that we do an Alt Section thread to examine these things to understand better what happened - see my post #76)

I'm not trying to be flippant, rather this is a reminder to me to give each and every post to Him, before hitting the "Enter" button. I don't always do that well, and so yes, sometimes things come through that appear insensitive. I've had a number of times where after asking, "Lord, what do you think of this post I'm ready to make?" that I've been constrained from making a post, and numerous times where I've modified a post.

BTW - I've also been told by other forum members that I had nothing to apologize for in that thread. But I am also sensitive to the matter of being "tone deaf." My flesh would want to keep going at this whole topic, but again, I think it's best to forget it and leave it to Him.

This is a huge cop out of a response. You can cloak it in verses to make yourself feel better, but it's still a cop out.

Of course you can fix yourself. If you make a comment about how the dinner your wife cooked was bland, and she tells you "hey......that doesn't make me feel good", do you respond "I'm not going to try to fix myself" or "I can't fix myself"? Of course not. Come on man. Don't use the Bible to absolve yourself of personal responsibility as well as your own God-given ability to learn.

"Forgetting what is behind" was said just after Paul listed out his high accomplishments and attainments.....it's not in reference to offenses and hurt. What you did there was the same type of misuse of scripture as the LC co-workers do.

"Leave it to Him" is a very convenient way to skip away and do the same thing again the next time someone comes having been hurt so badly by the LC they don't believe God cares. The mindset that we can't do anything negates God's judgment of us. When He comes to judge us we can just say "Christ didn't indwell me enough!" and point the blame to Christ. Nope. You absolutely can do something about your behavior, actions, and responses. It's the only basis for God's judgment.

I can surmise which forum members told you you had nothing to apologize for. Other forum members have told me you did have things to apologize for. Hopefully from the numerous posts, particularly on the Alt-view forum recently where you have acknowledged my reasoning on sensitive topics, you should know that I'm not one to make issues out of things that aren't there.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Just want to convey a little observation that I thought interesting. This morning, before I even got out of bed, I was considering this thread before the Lord. I told Him, "Whatever you want to do with that is fine with me, I give it to you." I then thought that perhaps UntoHim would just kill the whole thing (especially after fiery comments one poster made), and I realized that I was at peace with whatever God wanted to do through our moderator.

When going online I discovered that the last dozen or so messages of the regular forum thread had disappeared. I said, "Amen Lord." I then had a little realization that this was just a small picture of how God will cause the old heavens and earth to be dispensed with and consumed by fire, before giving us a new heaven and earth. As 2 Peter 3:10-11 says, "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves . . . " We are encouraged not to look at the things which are going away (like Lot's wife). None of it will survive - the good (man's best), the bad (sin) and the ugly (death & man's worst) will be gone. All that will remain is what our loving God intended, and it will all be ours! (1 Cor 3:22)

I don't see that any last dozen or so messages have disappeared. I see them all still here, to the best of my recollection. If they hadn't disappeared, would you still have responded the same way as you described, and written a post about saying "Amen Lord" to responses that did not get deleted?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Hi all, I would like to address a few things.

ExChurchKid,

I usually can write a lot but I'm so frustrated and sad that words fail me. Plenty of readers saw what happened and don't agree at all with the way you were treated and responded to by some forum members. Normally I would try to convey that not all Christians are like this, but I'm too deflated and disgusted by what I've seen that I don't even have the energy to do that. Along with awareness and SerenityLives and Nell, I hope you can return to the forum some day and get the kind of warm welcome you initially received and deserve.

I wish you well on your journey.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

ExChurchKid, I am so happy to have you on this forum. And I'm sorry it feels like you've been tossed into a Lion's den.

But you are just what LCD needs. We need ex-church kids out here and we need to listen listen listen to them. Same goes for the gals.

We've got way too many swinging penises out here.

So I thank you for spilling your guts ... and taking us down a few notches. We need more of you, and more SenertyLives too.

The irony is, it's almost like you need to have balls to last.

I could say more, and likely will. Or maybe we need to dust our feet off.

Your post left below.
Harold
--------------------------------------

Agreed, although I do have to point out that the earlier talk of penises being shoved down throats could also be intensely problematic for anyone reading, whether members or lurkers, who have any kind of history of sexual abuse or assault. While I understand the comparison as well as the emotions behind what going on to provoke the comparison, I hope that in general that kind of talk can largely be toned down out of care for any abuse victims reading.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered NZexCK

I’ve attempted to register an account but admin seems to be in no rush. Who knows if this post will make it through seeing as apparently my last post was the last one I was allowed.

There is something very wrong with adults who cannot respect someone’s boundaries even after they have been clearly stated and laid out for them clearly multiple times. How they are oblivious to this being a form of abuse is beyond me. Forcing religion onto someone again and again after they have repeatedly stated no is like being spiritually molested. It sounds extreme but maybe that’s what it has to be likened to to get it though their heads. This has already been the case for our entire lives as church kids in the LR. It is straight up spiritual abuse and gaslighting plain and simple. Church kids are beginning their own journey of finally having the freedom to find out who they are and figure out what they believe in on their own terms. The bible bashers on this forum need to understand they are not doing themselves or Christianity any favours with their behaviour. They are only pushing people further away from Christianity and seem more interested in stroking their own spiritual ego/gaining Jesus brownie points in the short term than genuinely caring for the well-being of recovering church kids.

Again, nailed it, NZexCK. There are plenty of threads on the forum for Biblical-speak. And there are clearly some threads where Christians need to set themselves aside and focus on the well-being of recovering church kids.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Curious

I have been watching-on here from the side-lines. But I do want to say something now.

Thank you, younger generation, ECK’s, for persevering with your message. Though it’s a bit raw and messy, this is the way towards a breakthrough of sorts, in mutual understanding. IMO.

The older generation who have paved the way by learning the harm, then setting up this forum, have done so in recognition that this information is important for the wellbeing of anyone and everyone who has been hurt by the LC.

However, as they are, in the main, individuals who have either maintained or returned to their fundamental Christian faith, this factor has been part of their motivation, and part of their conviction. That is to say, unpacking and unravelling the ways the true message of the bible has been distorted and re-aligned to ‘endorse’ WL and his various, personal agendas is one main theme of this forum. As is obvious I know. However, they have meant no harm in this, its their (mine too) comfortable place.

However, an important ‘blind spot’ has been identified in this thread. In the comradery and enthusiasm of unpacking the false doctrines together, being free to discuss our faith openly is a very normal part of our discussions. We did not know until now, the triggering effect this has the potential to have on the younger generation. To learn that it actually keeps some or potentially many, ECK’s from signing up and entering the discussions, and/or puts ECK’s right off is an important thing to recognize. And well worth being aware of. it is certainly not at all intended. It may seem trivial to long-time posters, who, like me, love to discuss faith. However, these discussions look very different to those whose spiritual abuse is raw. To become aware of, and able thereby to validate and be sensitive to those who are ‘triggered’ by religious talk could really help this forum to be a helpful place to many more individuals. In turn, helping it to achieve its goals, especially towards supporting ECK’s and younger generation.

After all, to serve the demographic speaking out in this thread, is to listen and be prepared to think of ways to create a suitable space that does not talk Christian-ese at them. And realize this is very important. Even if Christian doctrine is discussed, to be done so in a way that does not cross boundaries. Being informed and in mutual understanding about what those boundaries are. I think this is a great development!

I know how off-putting Christianity is when delivered in a 'religious spirit' from my own personal history. I recognized that religious tone taking over in my meetings with LC'ers and that contributed to my ceasing to meet. If conversations here are perceived in that tone by those whose only experience has been in such an atmosphere, then no wonder it becomes a non-starter. I get it.

We are perhaps, guilty of insensitivity.

Curious, this post allowed me to breathe again. Thanks for being one of the very few who seemed to understand what the issue has been the past few days. I hope members and lurkers can read and comprehend and take to heart what you have written.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I just want to say one thing. I’m sad we pushed XCK away. It seems she spent a lot of time to write her last response.

Secondly, something needs to be changed. Last time, I posted my testimony on here, it also got delegated to Alt views because of just one component- the lgbtq component. I dont know about you all, but when we (the younger generation) have our testimonies thrown below grounds, it’s an insult and makes us not want to share our testimonies in the first place on here.

I guess the best strategy then would just post our testimony and then leave and not reply to any rebuttals. But that doesnt seem right either.

I'm sad too. I'm going to take a specific stance regarding the rest of your post here that you may or may not agree with.

If someone comes and posts their testimony and experiences, and that testimony includes the fact that they are LGBTQ and includes the way they were treated in the LC for being LGBTQ, I see absolutely no reason why that post and thread should be moved. It should stay on the main forum. To move a thread like that only sends the same message the LGBTQ person has probably gotten already - we don't want you here - which is a horrible message to send, and the wrong one.

However, due to the personal beliefs of the owner of this forum, I can understand having the threads on the topic of LGBTQ on the Alt-views section. If someone believes that same sex actions are a sin, I can understand their not wanting posts in affirmation of that sin on the main forum. In that case, I would hope that just the LGBTQ defense/offense posts were moved, and not the entire thread where the LGBTQ person introduced themselves.

Having said that, I'm not necessarily set in stone on that either. It's all stuff that various people leaving the LC might have to wrestle with or may never have been able to talk about, so why separate it out? But I do agree that something needs to change in the way we welcome new people, no matter what they believe or are.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Agreed, although I do have to point out that the earlier talk of penises being shoved down throats could also be intensely problematic for anyone reading, whether members or lurkers, who have any kind of history of sexual abuse or assault. While I understand the comparison as well as the emotions behind what going on to provoke the comparison, I hope that in general that kind of talk can largely be toned down out of care for any abuse victims reading.

Good point ... sorry for being tone-deaf in that regard.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm sad too. I'm going to take a specific stance regarding the rest of your post here that you may or may not agree with.

If someone comes and posts their testimony and experiences, and that testimony includes the fact that they are LGBTQ and includes the way they were treated in the LC for being LGBTQ, I see absolutely no reason why that post and thread should be moved. It should stay on the main forum. To move a thread like that only sends the same message the LGBTQ person has probably gotten already - we don't want you here - which is a horrible message to send, and the wrong one.

However, due to the personal beliefs of the owner of this forum, I can understand having the threads on the topic of LGBTQ on the Alt-views section. If someone believes that same sex actions are a sin, I can understand their not wanting posts in affirmation of that sin on the main forum. In that case, I would hope that just the LGBTQ defense/offense posts were moved, and not the entire thread where the LGBTQ person introduced themselves.

Having said that, I'm not necessarily set in stone on that either. It's all stuff that various people leaving the LC might have to wrestle with or may never have been able to talk about, so why separate it out? But I do agree that something needs to change in the way we welcome new people, no matter what they believe or are.

Yes Trapped, I would agree with you that if the coversation did go sideways like focusing on biblical analysis of lgbtq relationships or atheism, then it should be in a different thread. What I was upset about was that my entire testimony (not just the particular posts that went off topic) was moved to Alt views before (this thread was later deleted). Same with XChurchKid’s Testimony. The whole thing was moved over. I’m not sure how difficult it is for the mod to just start at the point where people veered off topic to debate certain aspects of the testimony, and move the posts AFTER that point or points to Alt views. Then again, there are ex LCers also suffering or experiencing atheism and/or sexuality issues and I think it’s be best to leave these sorts of testimonies in the main forum to include diversity. Esp among the younger generations, it is beneficial for them to see they’re not the only ones going through it, and that they dont have to scroll all the way down to Alt views to find that others are experiencing the same things.
Then again, this is my two cents, if someone thinks lgbtq plus is/is not a sin, both views are equally valid, so to choose one over the other in order to make a decision whether or not that should be in the main forum is making a decision for all LCers who may think differently about the issue.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered NZexCK

I’ve attempted to register an account but admin seems to be in no rush. Who knows if this post will make it through seeing as apparently my last post was the last one I was allowed.

Sorry about that NZexCK. For some reason your email was kicked over to my spam section. I hardly ever check my spam box. But as fortune would have it, I was perusing Alt. Views and saw your post from last night.

Your introduction email should be in your inbox now.

****For future reference - If anyone sees that someone is having a problem registering for the forum please, please let me know!****
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't see that any last dozen or so messages have disappeared. I see them all still here, to the best of my recollection. If they hadn't disappeared, would you still have responded the same way as you described, and written a post about saying "Amen Lord" to responses that did not get deleted?

As far as I can tell, those messages were moved from the main forum to the Alt Section (meaning this thread here), right? That's what I was referring to.

Your other comments are interesting. I'm not ignoring them, but am digesting before responding (or not) . . . The last thing this forum seems to need right now is another knee-jerk reaction.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm sad too. I'm going to take a specific stance regarding the rest of your post here that you may or may not agree with.

If someone comes and posts their testimony and experiences, and that testimony includes the fact that they are LGBTQ and includes the way they were treated in the LC for being LGBTQ, I see absolutely no reason why that post and thread should be moved. It should stay on the main forum. To move a thread like that only sends the same message the LGBTQ person has probably gotten already - we don't want you here - which is a horrible message to send, and the wrong one.

I understand why local churcher's, and even believing exLCer's, would kick the LGBTQ down : they cling to the book, and the few verses that appear to condemn it, and not to Jesus' teachings on love (half the verses condemning it are way pre-Jesus - would Jesus say, let him without sin cast the first stone).

How many first stone throwers do we have out here?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by awareness

I understand why local churcher's, and even believing exLCer's, would kick the LGBTQ down : they cling to the book, and the few verses that appear to condemn it, and not to Jesus' teachings on love (half the verses condemning it are way pre-Jesus - would Jesus say, let him without sin cast the first stone).

How many first stone throwers do we have out here?

I am not making this up. I know at least seven sisters and two brothers who identify as lgbtq and are ex LCers. Do we really want to kick their voices down? How much better are we than the actual LC in dealing with these brothers and sisters, by silencing their experiences? They told me they are scared to post on this forum. Is this right? Is this Christian? Is this love? Where do these people go for support? I cant be the only one handling all of them but yet I am. I am very disappointed

[Sons to Glory!]

I am responding to the last two posts over on the Things Learned/LGBTQ+ thread.

[ExChurchKid]

UntoHim,
Please state your stance on the issue this thread has been discussing, and answer the questions/comments/concerns/suggestions directed towards you. It would be very helpful to understand if there is a path forward in this forum, and what it would be.

Thanks to everyone who posted a supportive response to my probably overly-long post.

[UntoHim]

ExChurchKid,

You've asked me a really big question. I don't think I could possibly address it in just one post. Let me go back to your opening post:

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Can we help the current church kids to not have to go through what we went through? Can we expose the truth of the local churches?

I think LCD is probably the only venue on the Internet that there are people like yourself can come and dialogue with the current and former church kids. I have supplied the venue. I pay the rent on the meeting hall, which I am glad to do. However I do not have the knowledge or skill to lead the conversation when it comes to the younger generation of church kids. I have hoped and prayed for many years that such a person would come along and moderate such discussions.

"Can we expose truth of the local churches" Well some of us have been trying for about 20 years now. I plan on LCD to be around for the foreseeable future to keep the exposing going strong! But we can always use all the help we can get!

As far as "a path forward" please see post #94 by Curious and my recent post on the Greatest Error thread on the main forum. I hope to answer this a little better for you maybe later today.
-

[ExChurchKid]

Thank you for your response. I agree with this being the only venue on the internet, which is why I've been trying to fight to fix the issues. I have the knowledge and skill to lead the conversation with the younger generation of church kids. So, I believe, does SerenityLives. I mention the two of us, because we ARE the younger generation of church kids. Perhaps there are others that I've missed (Trapped? I have no idea how old you are). Why not make one of us a moderator? You can be the older male evangelical, and SerenityLives (assuming she's willing) or I (I am more than willing) can be the younger female agnostic. This would make for a more balanced forum. I did read the post by Curious, and I just found your recent post in the Greatest Error thread. They are much appreciated, and speak much truth I think. A few follow-up questions:

1. Why was this thread moved to Alternative Views?

2. Will you make me (or someone like SerenityLives, perhaps Trapped, etc.) a moderator alongside you?

3. Am I allowed to be agnostic in this forum, without fear of needing to be "fixed"?

4. Do you understand why the comments of those I've mentioned specifically make me and others like me so uncomfortable? When I go to check on a thread and see that SonstoGlory has responded...it makes my skin crawl, sorry to say. Not that he is a bad person (although I think he enjoys crashing through boundaries, and then getting to be offended when he gets called out, and then being vitriolically defended by his buddies Ohio and jigsaw44, which speaks to bad motivations). But his actions are bad. His religious speech is hypocritical. He hides behind God so he doesn't have to examine his posts. He gets offended when anyone disagrees with his beliefs, and yet claims that everyone else must respect his, when he most certainly doesn't respect the beliefs of others. My question is: do you understand how harmful this is? Why it makes me so uncomfortable that he could jump in at any moment, Bible bash me, and derail my conversation? Are you willing to call him and others out for the "false religion" you speak of in the Greatest Error thread?

5. Will you request apologies from SonstoGlory, Ohio, and jigsaw44, for how they have acted on this forum, to promote healing and get us back on track?

6. Will you apologize to me, for telling me to "just ignore" comments that make me uncomfortable, as I described above? For lack of moderation allowing abuse into this forum? I mean, seriously, have you read the LGBTQ thread, and the posts of your evangelical buddies towards SerenityLives??

7. Will you pay more attention to reported comments, and either delete the comments or warn/ban from the thread the person who is derailing the conversation, or simply being insulting? (i.e. the comment from jigsaw44 that expressly violated your posted warning, which I reported, and wasn't deleted the last time I checked?)

8. Out of curiosity, since I am clearly such a handful...why did you not grant my original request to delete and/or ban my account?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

since I am clearly such a handful...

Handful my patootie. I find you nothing but loveable.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

A few follow-up questions:
1. Why was this thread moved to Alternative Views?.........................................

The answers to these 8 things should be most . . . interesting. I pray for wisdom & grace for all of us, and especially our brother, UntoHim!

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The answers to these 8 things should be most . . . interesting. I pray for wisdom & grace for all of us, and especially our brother, UntoHim!

DUDE how insensitive can you be? Seriously?? What the hell were we JUST talking about on this thread? Are you TRYING to Bible bash people out of this forum and into atheism? Do you even THINK about how you might hurt someone before you post, or is all you care about feeling self-righteous in your fake religion (see UntoHim's Greatest Error comment for more on fake religion)? Do you post intentionally to provoke, so you can then whine about the strawman fallacy that you aren't even using correctly (a strawman is a debate term, where you INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE a debate opponent to throw them off of your real argument)? Because it often seems that way. How hypocritical is it for you to blatantly ignore Trapped calling you out on your gigantic cop-out of a response from earlier, just to pretend to take the highroad through "prayer"? Prayer accomplishes nothing. Just ask awareness about how Jesus saved his finger (spoiler alert, awareness is missing a finger).

[ExChurchKid]

I just need to add, StG: have you even read Matthew chapter 6? Do you understand that when it says "don't be like the hypocrites", it's talking about you? Because it is.

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Stop trying to be seen by others, and go pray in secret.

[awareness]

Can I add this? :

As I walk through this wicked world
Searchin' for light in the darkness of insanity
I ask myself, "Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred and misery?"
And each time I feel like this inside
There's one thing I wanna know
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?

And as I walk on through troubled times
My spirit gets so downhearted sometimes
So where are the strong and who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony, sweet harmony?
'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away
Just makes me wanna cry
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?

So where are the strong and who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony, sweet harmony?
'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away
Just makes me wanna cry
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?

Elvis Costello

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssd3U_zicAI

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Do you post intentionally to provoke, so you can then whine about the strawman fallacy that you aren't even using correctly (a strawman is a debate term, where you INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE a debate opponent to throw them off of your real argument)? Prayer accomplishes nothing. Just ask awareness about how Jesus saved his finger (spoiler alert, awareness is missing a finger).

At least awareness has his name other extra fingers, to masturbate with.

Thanks for calling him out on his use of the strawman fallacy. I was just trying to respond to his analogy of comparing Christians as being loving parents trying to help wayward lgbtq community (children). And then he compared his Christian love as being a well-meaning friend to me. Idk, it seems I dont feel the friendship at this time.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

a strawman is a debate term, where you INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE a debate opponent to throw them off of your real argument

Close, but not quite: "A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making." From Here

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Just ask awareness about how Jesus saved his finger (spoiler alert, awareness is missing a finger).

I should tell this story. Long story short I smashed my finger in my log splitter.

I immediately ran into my shop and cut the glove of with scissors. Then I tried to fix it with a popsicle stick. That didn't work so I drove 10 miles to CVS to buy those foam metal finger supports. That didn't work either, and I noticed it was turning white.

So I called the hospital and asked if they had someone that could sew my finger back on. They said yes, so I drove to the hospital, got checked in and waited for the doctor.

When he came in he took a look, and began to pray over me. When he was finished I busted out with excitement and said, praise the Lord Jesus is going to save my finger.

Then the doctor said they were going to put me out. I said, no, no, I drove here and I'm driving back. I told the doctor to just numb it all with Novocaine, and sew it back on.

He did, and left me with a nub. So on my right hand I'm missing most of my index finger.

Then, going back after a couple of weeks I went in to have the stitches removed. I didn't see the doctor. So I called and requested an appointment to see the doctor. That took a month. And when he came in I said let's pray, which I did.

Then I asked the doctor for a prosthetic finger. He said he doesn't do that. While I waited I collected knee replaces, hip replacements, and a shoulder replacements. I said you replace all these but not a finger. So he made me wait a half hour and came in with a referral to a doctor that would do it about an hour away. So I called that office and was told it would cost about $10,000.00 dollars. I said, wait a minute, I can buy a whole life sized rubber doll for only $5,000.00, with 10 fingers, and all the rest of the body parts. But insurance wouldn't pay for that. So I just gave it up, and decided I'd buy a Halloween finger, which I couldn't ever find.

So Jesus didn't save my finger. His prayer didn't work.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Close, but not quite: "A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making." From Here

Still your argument in the lgbtq thread doesnt hold up with or without the strawman fallacy.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Close, but not quite: "A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making." From Here

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

I would say you're the one who constantly commits the strawman fallacy, since you never actually articulate a proper refutation, to anything.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

I would say you're the one who constantly commits the strawman fallacy, since you never actually articulate a proper refutation, to anything.

Can't Jesus be a straw man?

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can't Jesus be a straw man?

If the person making the argument is attempting to distract the opposing debater with Jesus, so as to make a point about something other than Jesus, than yes, yes he can be a strawman.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Thanks for calling him out on his use of the strawman fallacy. I was just trying to respond to his analogy of comparing Christians as being loving parents trying to help wayward lgbtq community (children). And then he compared his Christian love as being a well-meaning friend to me. Idk, it seems I dont feel the friendship at this time.

I'm sure you already know this, but friendship is mutual. He can ask to be your friend or have a parental relationship with you, but if you refuse, he must respect that. The LC forces us to be "brothers" and "sisters" with people who hurt us, so I would think in this forum people would want to stay away from forcing unwanted friendship/parental feelings on others. As for love, to quote from StG's favorite book, we have 1 Corinthians 13:4-7:
"⁴ Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. ⁵ It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. ⁶ Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. ⁷ It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Does this sound like StG to you? Not to me. Or does it sound like jigsaw, who claimed to love me in between his avalanches of word vomit below? Nope, I don't think it does. Have we received patience and kindness on this forum? Yes, from certain people. From others, we have received boasting, pride, dishonor, quick anger, grudges (records of wrongs, even when they weren't wrongs in the first place) and the effects of self-seeking.

Have we been protected, trusted, preserved?

[ExChurchKid]

UntoHim,
I was hoping you'd reply soon, but oh well. I'll get out of your hair now. I just want you to know, never have I felt so spiritually abused since the LC, than on this forum. Never have I lost more faith in Christianity and God and all that is supposed to be right with the world. I'm pretty active on reddit, and there's some hurtful **** that gets thrown back and forth on there. But in this place that is supposedly of healing?? Reddit has never turned me to tears as this forum has. Good luck.