A Corona Virus Great Awakening?

[Sons to Glory!]

Read an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday and thought to share: A Corona Virus Great Awakening? As Christians we know this - it's the rough times when people turn to Him! I know I have felt the shaking and am being exposed regarding how much I cling to the "Great American Dream" comforts, etc. Oh Lord, prepare our hearts for Your coming!

On a second note, does anybody else see how this virus thing could be a big stimulus for One World Government thinking? The rational follows a few lines, such as:

1. It's too big for any one country to handle
2. We need a strong, unified, one world response
3. We need a common currency - electronic based (so as not to transmit illnesses, better security, etc.)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

As Christians we know this - it's the rough times when people turn to Him! I know I have felt the shaking and am being exposed regarding how much I cling to the "Great American Dream" comforts, etc. Oh Lord, prepare our hearts for Your coming!

First of all,
Jesus tells us in John 14:1 not to let our hearts be troubled. The Precious Blood of Jesus has not only redeemed us and cleansed us from all our sins but also protects us.

SOG, I don't believe for a moment you are a lukewarm Christian. From reading your posts, you encourage the saints, and as the opportunity rises, you share your testimony and try to bring people to Jesus. I am sure you have succeeded. You have many rewards awaiting you..as do the saints here on the form.

That we are blessed with the comforts or at least some comforts of this world, I am very thankful. I am thankful I have a roof over my head, AC in the summer and heat in the winter. I am thankful I have a car, for my pets and for my caring family, friends and neighbors.

I am sure you are too as well all the forum members.

God also did not give us a spirit of FEAR. He tells us not to be anxious (Philippians 4:6-7) And boy oh boy, the media and the spread of the coronavirus is surely doing a number in scaring the pants off people. That's not to say we should not take precaution. But we were given the Spirit of Power, of LOVE and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7

Given the worldwide spread of the virus and especially how it is spreading here in the U.S., I do believe it is a wake up call to the lukewarm believers and the nonbelievers that the Lord has been trying to pull them to Himself.

I know there are some who believe Christians will have to go through the Tribulation. I am not of that camp. I believe all true BLOOD REDEEMED believers will not go through the trib. I believe in the rapture before the trib begins.
That doesn't mean everyone gets the same rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ. We will all be accountable in how we served the Lord.

God is MERCIFUL, UNDERSTANDING, COMPASSIONATE AND VERY, VERY LOVING. There are times when we are not on fire or have backslidden but once we are washed in the Blood of the Lamb we cannot be plucked out of our Father's Hands! That's a fact. That's the Truth and God always KEEPS HIS WORD AND PROMISE!

I also believe there will be several raptures during the trib before the second coming of Christ which occurs at the battle of Armaggedon. For example I believe the 144k in Revelation 14 are raptured and are the same as the 144k of the 12 Tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. I also believe it is very POSSIBLE many will be raptured when the angel flying in the midst of heaving preaches the everlasting gospel to everyone that dwells on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people Rev 14:6. There will also be martyrs and there will be some, JEWS perhaps who will escape the great trib by the Grace of God. I don't know how it will all pan out.

I also don't expect everyone or even anyone here to believe how I believe but I have been a bible prophecy buff since my LC days but became a more serious student in 2005.

I believe this virus could be a preview of what's to come all be it mild in comparison. There were 10 plagues in Egypt before the exodus of the Israelites. On their last night there, God said "when I see the BLOOD, I WILL PASSOVER YOU'. In Revelation 16, 7 plagues are listed under the caption bowls of wrath.

On a second note, does anybody else see how this virus thing could be a big stimulus for One World Government thinking?

I most certainly do! I think it is interesting that the church doors are closed (for now) but will life as we have known it return to 'normalcy'? I don't know however if this is a sign, a wake up call, it may not. NO ONE KNOWS YET. I think closing the church doors could (NOT SAYING IT WILL) lead to the one world religion led by the false prophet (the beast of the earth Rev 13:11-18) who will point people to the false Messiah, the beast of the sea(Rev 13:1-10)

Obviously most people are hoping and praying it does.

During the Great Trib, there will be a one world government and a one world religion. People will not be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast. What IF.. and I know I'll probably get flack for what I am about to write but it is only a thought WHAT IF a vaccine is indeed developed that curtails and suspends the virus from spreading but becomes mandatory for everyone to get vaccinated and without proof no one can buy or sell or even go to restaurants?? It is JUST A THOUGHT and most likely will not happen..at least while the saints are here on earth.

Remember 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, (BEAM ME UP JESUS!) at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us
the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Let not your hearts be troubled. THE KING has our backs!!

P.S.
Does anyone know if the LSM/LC is having meetings? Are they complying in meeting with 10 or less people in their group?

[Nell]

https://www.churchinirving.org/annou...ents-3-22-2020

Important announcement regarding our public meetings
The brothers in the church here in Irving have been monitoring the developments related to the recent health concerns about COVID-19. During this time our responsibility is to pray and stand for the Lord’s interests (Eph. 6:10-20), to watchfully shepherd the flock of God (Acts 20:28), to love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:31), and to cooperate with governmental authorities (Rom. 13:1).
As believers we are to meet together, yet we must exercise foresight before both God and man (2 Cor. 8:21). We thus announce the following interim modifications to our meetings as of March 15th:
 During this time, there will not be any meetings at the Esters Rd hall;
 We would rather propose to meet using different software for video conferences, such as Zoom, Skype, Face Time, etc.
 Any home that hosts a meeting should follow strict guidelines according to the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nCoV/index.html

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

...
On a second note, does anybody else see how this virus thing could be a big stimulus for One World Government thinking? The rational follows a few lines, such as:

1. It's too big for any one country to handle
2. We need a strong, unified, one world response
3. We need a common currency - electronic based (so as not to transmit illnesses, better security, etc.)

It certainly looks that way. However, 3 things: 1) I think Americans and Europeans are seeing the absolute necessity of “borders” and maintaining the ability to close borders when necessary. 2) Many Americans see and agree with the wisdom of “America First” as are other countries at least considering “why am I not putting my country ‘first’”? 3)The “Brexit” movement shows that the EU was not all it was billed to be...all of which counter OWG thinking.

Additionally, it would seem that the World Health Organization is a move toward One World Government. However, evidence is starting to surface that the WHO is and has been for quite some time, overly influenced by one country: China.

The Lord may be giving us a little more time...

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Read an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday and thought to share: A Corona Virus Great Awakening? As Christians we know this - it's the rough times when people turn to Him! I know I have felt the shaking and am being exposed regarding how much I cling to the "Great American Dream" comforts, etc. Oh Lord, prepare our hearts for Your coming!

Can the article be read without subscription?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can the article be read without subscription?

Sorry - looks like they embed some kind of tracking code in the link maybe, to see how many times it was read. I can't read it now either (I don't have a subscription). I'll see if there's another way.

Have tried various ways to get at the article to no avail! Anybody else able to read it and maybe post it here?

[PriestlyScribe]

Actually I am convinced that this pandemic was "authorized" by God to first of all "SIFT" the people and institutions who claim to be His. Malchi 1:10 comes to mind - "I wish one of you would shut the doors [to my house] so that you could not light fires on my altar for no reason. I'm not pleased with you," says the LORD of Armies, "and I won't accept your offerings. (God's Word Translation) Whenever God self-identifies as Lord of Hosts or Armies - the message that follows is often going to be fighting words! Another passage comes to mind: Jeremiah 14:12
Although they may fast, I will not listen to their cry; although they may offer burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Instead, I will finish them off by sword and famine and plague."
Secondly, this SIFTING has already impacted the rest of the world system, and eventually they may figure out that the shaking has come mainly because of a disobedient corporate Jonah hiding in the belly of spaceship earth. My latest video project greatly influenced the writing of this post, and here is a link to it: Why the "Ignorant Elitism" of Ron Kangas has exposed thousands to a Pandemic Of Fear - https://youtu.be/UiqGNy2NlPI - It feels really good to be actively posting on this forum once again... PS

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

First of all,
Jesus tells us in John 14:1 not to let our hearts be troubled. The Precious Blood of Jesus has not only redeemed us and cleansed us from all our sins but also protects us.

SOG, I don't believe for a moment you are a lukewarm Christian. From reading your posts, you encourage the saints, and as the opportunity rises, you share your testimony and try to bring people to Jesus. I am sure you have succeeded. You have many rewards awaiting you..as do the saints here on the form.

That we are blessed with the comforts or at least some comforts of this world, I am very thankful. I am thankful I have a roof over my head, AC in the summer and heat in the winter. I am thankful I have a car, for my pets and for my caring family, friends and neighbors.

I am sure you are too as well all the forum members.

God also did not give us a spirit of FEAR. He tells us not to be anxious (Philippians 4:6-7) And boy oh boy, the media and the spread of the coronavirus is surely doing a number in scaring the pants off people. That's not to say we should not take precaution. But we were given the Spirit of Power, of LOVE and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7

Given the worldwide spread of the virus and especially how it is spreading here in the U.S., I do believe it is a wake up call to the lukewarm believers and the nonbelievers that the Lord has been trying to pull them to Himself.

I know there are some who believe Christians will have to go through the Tribulation. I am not of that camp. I believe all true BLOOD REDEEMED believers will not go through the trib. I believe in the rapture before the trib begins.
That doesn't mean everyone gets the same rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ. We will all be accountable in how we served the Lord.

God is MERCIFUL, UNDERSTANDING, COMPASSIONATE AND VERY, VERY LOVING. There are times when we are not on fire or have backslidden but once we are washed in the Blood of the Lamb we cannot be plucked out of our Father's Hands! That's a fact. That's the Truth and God always KEEPS HIS WORD AND PROMISE!

I also believe there will be several raptures during the trib before the second coming of Christ which occurs at the battle of Armaggedon. For example I believe the 144k in Revelation 14 are raptured and are the same as the 144k of the 12 Tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. I also believe it is very POSSIBLE many will be raptured when the angel flying in the midst of heaving preaches the everlasting gospel to everyone that dwells on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people Rev 14:6. There will also be martyrs and there will be some, JEWS perhaps who will escape the great trib by the Grace of God. I don't know how it will all pan out.

I also don't expect everyone or even anyone here to believe how I believe but I have been a bible prophecy buff since my LC days but became a more serious student in 2005.

I believe this virus could be a preview of what's to come all be it mild in comparison. There were 10 plagues in Egypt before the exodus of the Israelites. On their last night there, God said "when I see the BLOOD, I WILL PASSOVER YOU'. In Revelation 16, 7 plagues are listed under the caption bowls of wrath.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Yes and AMEN!

I listened to a current video someone sent me, of Dave Ramsey (popular Christian financial guru) and he said we probably all vacillate some between stages of fear and belief. Believers still have the flesh, and the flesh gets fearful when it sees its world being shaken. But HALLELUJAH! Christ lives in us! And that is the purpose and mercy of His shaking - so we will turn from the temporary things back to Him who is The Rock! Because of Him we do not loose heart in times of "momentary light affliction, which is working for us an eternal weight of glory!" Praise Him!

Yes, God has blessed me with an incredible existence in this world - wonderful wife, business, neighbors and house, along with good health (and a really wonderful church life)! But, by His mercy, I am reminded constantly that my hope and satisfaction is not in temporal things, but rather it is, and needs to be, fully in Him that is True.

I too see multiple catching-aways (raptures) and stand on His promise to Philadelphia to keep the church of love from the "hour of trial" coming on the whole earth. However, the principle of first-fruits is also pretty evident in scripture, so I think there will be some taken before others, according to how ripe (truly close in their daily walk with the Lord) they are. And as the heat gets turned up - faster ripening . . . again, His mercy! The exact timing I'm not very clear on - if we knew this, we might suppose to know the hour of His full return in glory.

[Nell]

A Coronavirus Great Awakening?
Sometimes the most important ingredient for spiritual renewal is a cataclysmic event.
By Robert Nicholson
March 26, 2020 6:38 pm ET

A Lutheran pastor preaches to an empty sanctuary in Austin, Texas, March 22.
PHOTO: BOB DAEMMRICH/ZUMA PRESS
Could a plague of biblical proportions be America’s best hope for religious revival? As the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II approaches, there is reason to think so.

Three-quarters of a century has dimmed the memory of that gruesome conflict and its terrible consequences: tens of millions killed, great cities bombed to rubble, Europe and Asia stricken by hunger and poverty. Those who survived the war had to grapple with the kinds of profound questions that only arise in the aftermath of calamity. Gazing at the ruins from his window at Cambridge University, British historian Herbert Butterfield chose to make sense of it by turning to the Hebrew Bible.

“The power of the Old Testament teaching on history—perhaps the point at which the ancient Jews were most original, breaking away from the religious thought of the other peoples around them—lay precisely in the region of truths which sprang from a reflection on catastrophe and cataclysm,” Butterfield wrote in “Christianity and History” (1949). “It is almost impossible properly to appreciate the higher developments in the historical reflection of the Old Testament except in another age which has experienced (or has found itself confronted with) colossal cataclysm.”

Americans, chastened by the horrors of war, turned to faith in search of truth and meaning. In the late 1940s, Gallup surveys showed more than three-quarters of Americans were members of a house of worship, compared with about half today. Congress added the words “under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Some would later call this a Third Great Awakening.

Today the world faces another moment of cataclysm. Though less devastating than World War II, the pandemic has remade everyday life and wrecked the global economy in a way that feels apocalyptic.

The experience is new and disorienting. Life had been deceptively easy until now. Our ancestors’ lives, by contrast, were guaranteed to be short and painful. The lucky ones survived birth. The luckier ones made it past childhood. Only in the past 200 years has humanity truly taken off. We now float through an anomalous world of air conditioning, 911 call centers, acetaminophen and pocket-size computers containing nearly the sum of human knowledge. We reduced nature to “the shackled form of a conquered monster,” as Joseph Conrad once put it, and took control of our fate. God became irrelevant.

Who will save us now that the monster has broken free?

“Men may live to a great age in days of comparative quietness and peaceful progress, without ever having come to grips with the universe, without ever vividly realising the problems and the paradoxes with which human history so often confronts us,” Butterfield wrote. “We of the twentieth century have been particularly spoiled; for the men of the Old Testament, the ancient Greeks and all our ancestors down to the seventeenth century betray in their philosophy and their outlook a terrible awareness of the chanciness of human life, and the precarious nature of man’s existence in this risky universe.”

The past four years have been some of the most contentious and embarrassing in American history. Squabbling over trivialities has left the public frantic and divided, oblivious to the transcendent. But the pandemic has humbled the country and opened millions of eyes to this risky universe once more.

“Sheer grimness of suffering brings men sometimes into a profounder understanding of human destiny,” Butterfield wrote. Sometimes “it is only by a cataclysm,” he continued, “that man can make his escape from the net which he has taken so much trouble to weave around himself.”

For societies founded on the biblical tradition, cataclysms need not mark the end. They are a call for repentance and revival. As the coronavirus pandemic subjects U.S. hospitals to a fearsome test, Americans can find solace in the same place that Butterfield did. Great struggle can produce great clarity.


“The ancient Hebrews, by virtue of inner resources and unparalleled leadership, turned their tragedy, turned their very helplessness, into one of the half-dozen creative moments in world history,” Butterfield wrote. “It would seem that one of the clearest and most concrete of the facts of history is the fact that men of spiritual resources may not only redeem catastrophe, but turn it into a grand creative moment.”

Could a rogue virus lead to a grand creative moment in America’s history? Will Americans, shaken by the reality of a risky universe, rediscover the God who proclaimed himself sovereign over every catastrophe?

Mr. Nicholson is president of the Philos Project.

[Nell]

Another voice from people of faith---from all walks of life:

"Legendary baseball broadcaster Vin Scully joined Ed Henry on Monday's "Fox News Rundown" podcast to discuss the coronavirus pandemic and the delayed start to this year’s Major League Baseball season.

The 92-year-old Scully, the radio and TV voice of the Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers from 1950 to 2016, told Henry he belives many people will use the downtime to rediscover their faith.

"Now that I have some leisure time and we're all locked in at home, I read an article and it was talking about what happened to Americans in World War II," said Scully, a devout Roman Catholic. "It was such a terrible time. Three-quarters of Americans belonged to a house of worship."

"Today ... half of Americans are involved in a house of worship, prior to this pandemic," he added. "So there's your answer ... Although they might not be able to go to a house of worship, probably more Americans will be praying since World War II.

"More people will be coming back to the faith," Scully went on. "And now that this terrible thing is upon us, people might very well get back to the center. And it's a better world. We'll see ...

Shifting the conversation to baseball, Scully discussed ..." "



Nell

[Ohio]

God has put the entire world on an extended fast -- no sports, no movies, no bars, no parties, no weddings, no eating out, no work for many -- even no church fellowship -- to prepare us for what is coming.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God has put the entire world on an extended fast -- no sports, no movies, no bars, no parties, no weddings, no eating out, no work for many -- even no church fellowship -- to prepare us for what is coming.

Amen! Prepare our hearts for Your coming Lord!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

It certainly looks that way. However, 3 things: 1) I think Americans and Europeans are seeing the absolute necessity of “borders” and maintaining the ability to close borders when necessary. 2) Many Americans see and agree with the wisdom of “America First” as are other countries at least considering “why am I not putting my country ‘first’”? 3)The “Brexit” movement shows that the EU was not all it was billed to be...all of which counter OWG thinking.

Additionally, it would seem that the World Health Organization is a move toward One World Government. However, evidence is starting to surface that the WHO is and has been for quite some time, overly influenced by one country: China.

The Lord may be giving us a little more time...

Nell

Nell, that's as I see it too. "The Lord may be giving us a little more time..."
Advocates of border security are for national sovereignty and advocates for open borders are for globalism (OWG). Current leaders in US, UK, Italy, Australia seem to have our current situation paused for OWG. I tend to think it's a matter of time.

[Nell]

This is the bellwether. Right? This is the big one. Prophecies of the end times cannot be fulfilled until the temple is rebuilt.

I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about archeological evidence that the location of the ancient temple was not where they have believed for hundreds of years. That is, the Temple Mount where now the Muslim Dome of the Rock is built. Archeologists found evidence that the ancient temple/s were located in the City of David very near, within sight of the current Temple Mount. They found foundational stones arranged in the same shape as the ancient Temple which was destroyed.

I’ve also seen documentaries and read that the Temple has been prefabricated and the stones are hidden in nearby locations. The curtains, gold implements, robes, etc., and everything required to rapidly build the temple and bring all the items required for worship according to Leviticus...all is ready.

What do you all think?

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

This is the bellwether. Right? This is the big one. Prophecies of the end times cannot be fulfilled until the temple is rebuilt.

I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about archeological evidence that the location of the ancient temple was not where they have believed for hundreds of years. That is, the Temple Mount where now the Muslim Dome of the Rock is built. Archeologists found evidence that the ancient temple/s were located in the City of David very near, within sight of the current Temple Mount. They found foundational stones arranged in the same shape as the ancient Temple which was destroyed.

I’ve also seen documentaries and read that the Temple has been prefabricated and the stones are hidden in nearby locations. The curtains, gold implements, robes, etc., and everything required to rapidly build the temple and bring all the items required for worship according to Leviticus...all is ready.

What do you all think?

Nell

There are several things out there that seem to dispell the idea that it was where the Dome of the Rock or the mosque is.

https://yrm.org/lost-temple-mount-found-pt1/

http://templemountlocation.com/bobCo...yDisputed.html

Basically, a few people are saying the Gihon Springs helps to ID the location, which is no where near these two structures. I spent some time a few years ago reading lots of books and other materials around this, and even conversing with authors. At the end I thought the idea has some pretty good merit and seemingly very knowledgeable advocates, but decided it was something of a distraction. If that is the case, i.e., located near Gihon Springs, the Jews could start building tomorrow without major repercussions . . .

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

There are several things out there that seem to dispell the idea that it was where the Dome of the Rock or the mosque is.

https://yrm.org/lost-temple-mount-found-pt1/

http://templemountlocation.com/bobCo...yDisputed.html

Basically, a few people are saying the Gihon Springs helps to ID the location, which is no where near these two structures. I spent some time a few years ago reading lots of books and other materials around this, and even conversing with authors. At the end I thought the idea has some pretty good merit and seemingly very knowledgeable advocates, but decided it was something of a distraction. If that is the case, i.e., located near Gihon Springs, the Jews could start building tomorrow without major repercussions . . .

I dunno...the Jews are pretty attached to the Wailing Wall and the Temple Mount. Building the temple anywhere but there could cause a major repercussion among the Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, in Israel and around the globe.

“Considering that the Temple Mount and Wailing Wall, which is believed to be the outer western wall to the ancient temple, is the holiest site in Judaism, such acceptance would not be easy.” (From the first link.)

How do mean it was “something of a distraction”?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

This is the bellwether. Right? This is the big one. Prophecies of the end times cannot be fulfilled until the temple is rebuilt.

I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about archeological evidence that the location of the ancient temple was not where they have believed for hundreds of years. That is, the Temple Mount where now the Muslim Dome of the Rock is built. Archeologists found evidence that the ancient temple/s were located in the City of David very near, within sight of the current Temple Mount. They found foundational stones arranged in the same shape as the ancient Temple which was destroyed.

I’ve also seen documentaries and read that the Temple has been prefabricated and the stones are hidden in nearby locations. The curtains, gold implements, robes, etc., and everything required to rapidly build the temple and bring all the items required for worship according to Leviticus...all is ready.

What do you all think?

Nell

Years ago I read that the materials and plans for the temple are already prepared off site.

I also read an article that scholars are not in agreement concerning the actual location of the temple, and that there are 3 locations which have undergone great investigation. One of which, of course, is the Dome of the Rock. Archeologists have extensively undermined the temple mount and have mapped it out.

Perhaps, in their next antifada, Palestinian Hamas rockets will "accidentally" strike the Dome?

My understanding is that all of Israel will wrongly believe that the Beast will be their long promised Messiah, since he will enable them to build their Temple. Once the Temple is built, and worship begins, Israel's final week of years according to Daniel 9 begins.

I heard Elden1971 knows a few things about this topic.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

I dunno...the Jews are pretty attached to the Wailing Wall and the Temple Mount. Building the temple anywhere but there could cause a major repercussion among the Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, in Israel and around the globe.

“Considering that the Temple Mount and Wailing Wall, which is believed to be the outer western wall to the ancient temple, is the holiest site in Judaism, such acceptance would not be easy.” (From the first link.)

How do mean it was “something of a distraction”?

Regarding being a distraction, I got quite caught-up in reading this and that, pros and cons to the various theories. Don't get me wrong, it was interesting, but something I felt wasn't profitable to pursue so intently.

Regarding the so-called "Wailing Wall," here's a couple factoids: Jesus said of the temple, "not one stone will be left on another." Josephus, and other historians confirm this in detail, showing how brutally thorough the Romans were in destroying it. One interesting theory is that the wall was was actually part of the Roman garrison's Fort Antonio, which the Romans probably wouldn't have destroyed. If that's the case, it is certainly one of the major ironies of history, isn't it!?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Regarding being a distraction, I got quite caught-up in reading this and that, pros and cons to the various theories. Don't get me wrong, it was interesting, but something I felt wasn't profitable to pursue so intently.

Regarding the so-called "Wailing Wall," here's a couple factoids: Jesus said of the temple, "not one stone will be left on another." Josephus, and other historians confirm this in detail, showing how brutally thorough the Romans were in destroying it. One interesting theory is that the wall was was actually part of the Roman garrison's Fort Antonio, which the Romans probably wouldn't have destroyed. If that's the case, it is certainly one of the major ironies of history, isn't it!?

The wailing wall was never part of the actual temple, but part of the 2nd Temple mount extended platform built by Herod 10-20BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...d's_Temple


"Fort Antonio" sounds like Israel's Alamo, perhaps an old wive's tale.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The wailing wall was never part of the actual temple, but part of the 2nd Temple mount extended platform built by Herod 10-20BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...d's_Temple


"Fort Antonio" sounds like Israel's Alamo, perhaps an old wive's tale.

Yes, definitely seems to not be part of the temple, whatever it was.

As far as the fortress is concerned, I recalled that from memory (I'm over 60 ya know), whereas it's technically called Antonia Fortress I guess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonia_Fortress

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The wailing wall was never part of the actual temple, but part of the 2nd Temple mount extended platform built by Herod 10-20BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...d's_Temple


"Fort Antonio" sounds like Israel's Alamo, perhaps an old wive's tale.

Ohio,

Whatever the historic “origin” of the wailing wall, it may well be an old wives tale, right or wrong, today it’s one of the most sacred sites in Israel and has been for over two thousand years.

“The Western Wall is no mere historical asset. It is the Jewish root – the deepest roots that any people has. Elsewhere, we grope for insight. At the Western Wall, As we water the Wall with our tears and melted the stones with our kisses, we achieve clarity and define who we are, as God's eternal nation.”

https://www.aish.com/w/a/48961906.html

Pretty powerful. I don’t know what’s what. I’m just keeping my ear to the ground.

Nell

[Ohio]

Throughout history there has always been a remnant of Jewish people -- survivors -- in their homeland. The Romans may have extinguished the nation of Israel and destroyed every stone of the temple, but not every Jew was killed. God always has a way of preserving what He needs to fulfill His promises.

I don't think the preservation of the Western Wall was an accident or some mistaken relic of their long lost Temple. I also think there is validity in the rumors of the preservation of the Ark of the covenant. The rebuilding of the Temple will occur, and the speed of its building will shock the World. Daniel's prophecy demands it.

Israel will have their final week of years, sure as the sun rises in the East. Though they will still suffer greatly during this "week," and falsely believe that the Man of Sin is their long awaited Messiah, in the end they will look upon "the One who was pierced" and believe, be delivered, and be restored to their former glory under the real King "David."

[OBW]

Spiritualizing pandemics, earthquakes, wars, etc., has always been a difficult topic. On one hand, there is are specific references to signs as precursors to the end times, yet all of these have happened over the course of history unabated, therefore nothing so definitive as a clear sign that it is now or soon (as we would call soon rather than as the God who created time would call soon).

One thing is clear, this is not the worst pandemic to ever happen. It is only barely beyond 100 years since one that was worse. But it is big enough to make a significant impact on almost everyone living at this time. And in ways far beyond personal health.

But at the same time, if we find that, as Christians, we have not been true to our calling and faith, then every wake-up is welcome to cause us to turn back to our love and obedience to our King and Savior. To live the kind of righteous life that we were intended to live as bearers of the image of God.

I would not fear a one-world government, though it is doubtful that it could ever occur other than by global war and a noose of iron to keep it in place. For all the rumblings about how the EU was setting up to be the base for the Anti-Christ, I find it interesting that they have enough trouble among themselves that they could hardly be such a start for that kind of singular government.

But in any case, we are told over and over to "fear not." So, for right now, the best advice is to love God, love your neighbor (but from at least a 6-foot distance unless circumstances require otherwise), pray, don't hoard, wash your hands, don't toch your face, and wipe-down your phone.

[Sons to Glory!]

Boy that is so true and agree with each point! Yes, so far this pandemic pales in comparison to the so-called Spanish flu of 1918, which they say was actually spread by US troops during WW1. But I suspect if we see the frequency and severity of things like this increasing, along with other Biblically predicted calamities, then that will be a much more sure sign, right?

And the shaking of this current storm is being felt by everyone, believers and non-believers alike. It's remarkable to see how fast everything comes to a screeching halt, and how quickly so many vulnerabilities of humans are laid bare! Personally I feel the Lord shaking so many things in my life that are not firmly grounded on The Rock of Ages - yet His grace is abounding all the more! And, in the big scheme of things, this is really a minor shaking (although that may not be deemed a very tactful or sympathetic statement in light of the 500 coronavirus deaths in one day in NY state) as things progress in the Lord's timetable.

All I can say is, "Lord prepare my heart for your return!"

And thanks for pointing out again how much scripture repeatedly exhorts us not to fear! Why? He's got this, we're in Christ and He's in us, and perfect love casts out fear!

[byHismercy]

For me, personally, the Lord has used the virus as a tool.....to gain my trust and love and dependence on Him. In March, as it spread, and as my fear heightened, I cried to Him, told Him I could not bear the strain of that much anxiety, and I was pretty sure it would crack me, as in, mental breakdown.....I just rebuked the spirit of fear, and declared my spirit of sonship. He just delivered me from that unclean spirit. I don't know how....He is mighty and able to do as He speaks, that is all I know. Every day I lay any fear at His feet. I am praying for my county, each city in Boundary Co, every night with my children. I pray for the staff at both ports and you know what, saints? Zero cases in our county so far. I don't claim to know the plans of the Lord for us, but I selfishly ask for protection, and I am going to keep on doing so. I hope when this passes, I will be boasting about Jesus to everyone who will listen. I hope I am faithful to Him, emboldened by Him, and I hope I am found by Him speaking His throne, His authority over everything, to everyone. I also pray millions of hearts and minds would turn to find Him because of this trouble. Sometimes we need to need Him, a lot. I think He is arranging all so we would just love Him back....a little bit of what love He has for us. God in Jesus bless each of you, and every person who visits this forum.

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for that post! I am reminded today of 2 Chronicles 2:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Minor shaking? Yes, at least in light of predicted things to come . . .

This world is under the strong sway of the evil one he wants to kill us), and as believers with Christ in us we're here as the "boots on the ground" in the midst of everything. And since men's eternal souls are at stake, our loving God will use everything to help shake us from the grip of our mortal enemy before it's too late . . . and many times that takes a pretty hard shaking!

So the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson wrote a thought before the Queen's address to the U.K: Mother Nature has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. She gave us time and she gave us warnings. She was so patient with us. She gave us fire and floods, she tried to warn us but in the end she took back control," Ferguson wrote along with a photo of a yard and trees in bloom.

She got no flack for that.. ok..fine.. NOW, replace the words "Mother Nature" with Almighty God has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. He gave us time and He gave us warnings. He was so patient with us. He gave us fire and floods, He tried to warn us but in the end He took back control,...wholeeee mackeral!! Imagine the BACKLASH!!!!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson wrote a thought before the Queen's address to the U.K: Mother Nature has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. She gave us time and she gave us warnings. She was so patient with us. She gave us fire and floods, she tried to warn us but in the end she took back control," Ferguson wrote along with a photo of a yard and trees in bloom.

She got no flack for that.. ok..fine.. NOW, replace the words "Mother Nature" with Almighty God has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. He gave us time and He gave us warnings. He was so patient with us. He gave us fire and floods, He tried to warn us but in the end He took back control,...wholeeee mackeral!! Imagine the BACKLASH!!!!

Yes that's striking! But like a brother I know once said, "She's just lost!" (like we were once . . . before He found us - hallelujah!)

This is the world system of darkness we find ourselves in, isn't it? Either no one mentions God at all (i.e., Queen - touting man's resilience and pride . . . she does mention "people of all faiths"), or they come out with this Mother Gaia total nonsense.

[countmeworthy]

Hi BHM
First off, my heart goes out to you. But!! I am so glad you were delivered by that unclean spirit of fear. That spirit can paralyze us. It sure has paralyzed a lot of people. That's not to say we should be so puffed up and disregard "the stay at home" recommendations and "social distancing" as some 'churches' are doing.

I have not experienced any fear as not a day goes by that I don't praise, worship give thanks and bless the LORD with all my heart and soul. I also apply the Blood of Jesus daily over myself, my family, my friends, neighbors, my subdivision, my city, my country and all the doctors, nurses, staff, and hard working people who are helping the needy. I have a nephew who lives in Manhattan NY. As a child he went to church but I don't know if he ever really got saved or connected with Jesus. He is doing very well in his job. And does not seem to fear the virus but he is hunkered down and working from home. I pray daily for his protection but most of all that he would connect with Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Asking for protection for yourself and family is not a selfish prayer whatsoever.

The LORD wants us to ask for protection, for Wisdom for Comfort, to supply all our needs according to the riches of His Glory.

May the LORD continue to strengthen you, grant you more Wisdom and Revelation, showering you with His Love, and bless you with the Spirit of Peace and Joy in these 'uncertain times'.

And may the same blessings go to all reading this post.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

For me, personally, the Lord has used the virus as a tool.....to gain my trust and love and dependence on Him. In March, as it spread, and as my fear heightened, I cried to Him, told Him I could not bear the strain of that much anxiety, and I was pretty sure it would crack me, as in, mental breakdown.....I just rebuked the spirit of fear, and declared my spirit of sonship. He just delivered me from that unclean spirit. I don't know how....He is mighty and able to do as He speaks, that is all I know. Every day I lay any fear at His feet. I am praying for my county, each city in Boundary Co, every night with my children. I pray for the staff at both ports and you know what, saints? Zero cases in our county so far. I don't claim to know the plans of the Lord for us, but I selfishly ask for protection, and I am going to keep on doing so. I hope when this passes, I will be boasting about Jesus to everyone who will listen. I hope I am faithful to Him, emboldened by Him, and I hope I am found by Him speaking His throne, His authority over everything, to everyone. I also pray millions of hearts and minds would turn to find Him because of this trouble. Sometimes we need to need Him, a lot. I think He is arranging all so we would just love Him back....a little bit of what love He has for us. God in Jesus bless each of you, and every person who visits this forum.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes that's striking! But like a brother I know once said, "She's just lost!" (like we were once . . . before He found us - hallelujah!)

This is the world system of darkness we find ourselves in, isn't it? Either no one mentions God at all (i.e., Queen - touting man's resilience and pride . . . she does mention "people of all faiths"), or they come out with this Mother Gaia total nonsense.

Fergie as her entire family (most likely) is not saved. She too needs the Salvation and Deliverance Jesus Christ has provided for them as He has for the world through His Blood shed on the cross.

My point is: had a Christian said the exact same thing Fergie wrote replacing Mother Nature with Almighty God, there would have been a worldwide backlash. Justice will come soon enough.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post

So the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson wrote a thought before the Queen's address to the U.K: Mother Nature has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. She gave us time and she gave us warnings. She was so patient with us. She gave us fire and floods, she tried to warn us but in the end she took back control," Ferguson wrote along with a photo of a yard and trees in bloom.

[OBW]

So the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson wrote a thought before the Queen's address to the U.K: Mother Nature has sent us to our rooms . . . .

She got no flack for that.. ok..fine.. NOW, replace the words "Mother Nature" with Almighty God has sent us to our rooms . . . . Imagine the BACKLASH!!!!

I think that worrying about what the world thinks about references to the Almighty is misplaced emphasis. Our calling is not to make the world like us in every way or to get them to even tolerate us. It is to live according to the image of the God we claim to represent. So let the heathen rage, ignore, accuse, criticize, and abuse. We represent the love and righteousness of God, not his judgment or punishment.

Be a little slower to demand our "rights as Americans" or to make declarations about the state of the nation (real or imagined — and none of that was included in the quoted post). If we are asked to comment, we can even do that with love rather than with steam coming from our ears. The world still is under the influence of the evil one. Don't expect to change it with "Christian outrage."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

For me, personally, the Lord has used the virus as a tool.....to gain my trust and love and dependence on Him. In March, as it spread, and as my fear heightened, I cried to Him, told Him I could not bear the strain of that much anxiety, and I was pretty sure it would crack me, as in, mental breakdown.....I just rebuked the spirit of fear, and declared my spirit of sonship. He just delivered me from that unclean spirit. I don't know how....He is mighty and able to do as He speaks, that is all I know. Every day I lay any fear at His feet. I am praying for my county, each city in Boundary Co, every night with my children. I pray for the staff at both ports and you know what, saints? Zero cases in our county so far. I don't claim to know the plans of the Lord for us, but I selfishly ask for protection, and I am going to keep on doing so. I hope when this passes, I will be boasting about Jesus to everyone who will listen. I hope I am faithful to Him, emboldened by Him, and I hope I am found by Him speaking His throne, His authority over everything, to everyone. I also pray millions of hearts and minds would turn to find Him because of this trouble. Sometimes we need to need Him, a lot. I think He is arranging all so we would just love Him back....a little bit of what love He has for us. God in Jesus bless each of you, and every person who visits this forum.

What an encouraging testimony. Your story has been added to Hebrews 11!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What an encouraging testimony. Your story has been added to Hebrews 11!

Good observation - another snapshot of faith in action!

Sobering news out of NY state as over 700 reported perishing in one day. Lord Jesus!

I just got off a conference call (via computer) with a work team and the question was asked, "What's something positive in the current situation you've personally experienced?" Some good things shared - one person donated a box of surgical masks to a local hospital, that he'd been given by a client a few months ago. A number of other positive things were shared by others.

I shared an experience my wife and I had last night about the number of neighbors we're now seeing. We were sitting in our front area and were pleased to see so many people out & about, all maintaining their "social distancing" standards. We exchanged ideas and supplies with a number of people, and everyone wanted to be helpful to one another. The young couple next door had a birthday party in their driveway with a handful of friends and relatives, all sitting in lawn chairs spaced apart from one another. Rubber gloves, face masks (and face mask ideas), hair color and a couple bottles of beer were exchanged, as well as many exhortations of "let us know if you need anything" and "wash those hands!"

It was striking and ironic that it's taken something like this pandemic (plus admittedly it's springtime in AZ), to get everyone out out of their houses and talking to one another! It reminds me of growing up in Ohio, when each evening people would be out on their front porches (remember those?) talking to one another and exchanging little pleasantries (including homemade cookies, etc.).

May the Lord use all of it to rescue us, draw us to Himself and build His church!

[Sons to Glory!]

I read last night's passage in the Daily Light devotional and thought to share with y-all, as it pertains very specifically to our present trial.

[Raptor]

Free audio book from John Piper on Christ and coronavirus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St8NlULiuvo

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Free audio book from John Piper on Christ and coronavirus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St8NlULiuvo

Thanks for sharing! I'll listen later, but can you give a summary?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for sharing! I'll listen later, but can you give a summary?

Hi brother! Still listening....it´s 2 hours long or so....

He pours out, he touches the gospel, God´s sovereignty, faithfulness. So far inviting people to know Christ and encouraging Christians to trust their Lord.

This brother is packed with the Spirt, the word and a real enjoyment of the Triune God.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for sharing! I'll listen later, but can you give a summary?

Actually, Piper give kind of a summary/introduction here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfu6JLB_XE

[Sons to Glory!]

Was finally able to access the WSJ article again (it evidently reset my access for a new month) that I started this thread with, so here it is.

A Coronavirus Great Awakening?
Sometimes the most important ingredient for spiritual renewal is a cataclysmic event.
By Robert Nicholson
March 26, 2020 6:38 pm ET

Could a plague of biblical proportions be America’s best hope for religious revival? As the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II approaches, there is reason to think so.

Three-quarters of a century has dimmed the memory of that gruesome conflict and its terrible consequences: tens of millions killed, great cities bombed to rubble, Europe and Asia stricken by hunger and poverty. Those who survived the war had to grapple with the kinds of profound questions that only arise in the aftermath of calamity. Gazing at the ruins from his window at Cambridge University, British historian Herbert Butterfield chose to make sense of it by turning to the Hebrew Bible.

“The power of the Old Testament teaching on history—perhaps the point at which the ancient Jews were most original, breaking away from the religious thought of the other peoples around them—lay precisely in the region of truths which sprang from a reflection on catastrophe and cataclysm,” Butterfield wrote in “Christianity and History” (1949). “It is almost impossible properly to appreciate the higher developments in the historical reflection of the Old Testament except in another age which has experienced (or has found itself confronted with) colossal cataclysm.”


Americans, chastened by the horrors of war, turned to faith in search of truth and meaning. In the late 1940s, Gallup surveys showed more than three-quarters of Americans were members of a house of worship, compared with about half today. Congress added the words “under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Some would later call this a Third Great Awakening.

Today the world faces another moment of cataclysm. Though less devastating than World War II, the pandemic has remade everyday life and wrecked the global economy in a way that feels apocalyptic.

The experience is new and disorienting. Life had been deceptively easy until now. Our ancestors’ lives, by contrast, were guaranteed to be short and painful. The lucky ones survived birth. The luckier ones made it past childhood. Only in the past 200 years has humanity truly taken off. We now float through an anomalous world of air conditioning, 911 call centers, acetaminophen and pocket-size computers containing nearly the sum of human knowledge. We reduced nature to “the shackled form of a conquered monster,” as Joseph Conrad once put it, and took control of our fate. God became irrelevant.

Who will save us now that the monster has broken free?

“Men may live to a great age in days of comparative quietness and peaceful progress, without ever having come to grips with the universe, without ever vividly realising the problems and the paradoxes with which human history so often confronts us,” Butterfield wrote. “We of the twentieth century have been particularly spoiled; for the men of the Old Testament, the ancient Greeks and all our ancestors down to the seventeenth century betray in their philosophy and their outlook a terrible awareness of the chanciness of human life, and the precarious nature of man’s existence in this risky universe.”

The past four years have been some of the most contentious and embarrassing in American history. Squabbling over trivialities has left the public frantic and divided, oblivious to the transcendent. But the pandemic has humbled the country and opened millions of eyes to this risky universe once more.

“Sheer grimness of suffering brings men sometimes into a profounder understanding of human destiny,” Butterfield wrote. Sometimes “it is only by a cataclysm,” he continued, “that man can make his escape from the net which he has taken so much trouble to weave around himself.”

For societies founded on the biblical tradition, cataclysms need not mark the end. They are a call for repentance and revival. As the coronavirus pandemic subjects U.S. hospitals to a fearsome test, Americans can find solace in the same place that Butterfield did. Great struggle can produce great clarity.


“The ancient Hebrews, by virtue of inner resources and unparalleled leadership, turned their tragedy, turned their very helplessness, into one of the half-dozen creative moments in world history,” Butterfield wrote. “It would seem that one of the clearest and most concrete of the facts of history is the fact that men of spiritual resources may not only redeem catastrophe, but turn it into a grand creative moment.”

Could a rogue virus lead to a grand creative moment in America’s history? Will Americans, shaken by the reality of a risky universe, rediscover the God who proclaimed himself sovereign over every catastrophe?

Mr. Nicholson is president of the Philos Project.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Actually, Piper give kind of a summary/introduction here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfu6JLB_XE

I listened to Piper's 5 minute intro you shared (above link), and it really whet my appetite to hear the entire 2 hour audio book ("Coronavisus and Christ") you pasted - thanks again!

Cronavirus and Christ audio book here

[byHismercy]

StG, I thought this thread was an appropriate place to share this precious testimony....

https://youtu.be/5zgwD8j16NA

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

StG, I thought this thread was an appropriate place to share this precious testimony....

https://youtu.be/5zgwD8j16NA

Maybe the cleaner was an angel...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Maybe the cleaner was an angel...

Hard to believe God would answer a prayer for a Coke.

Pretty amazing, eh?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Maybe the cleaner was an angel...

Agreed. Check the hospital employee records. He prolly doesn't exist.

[Sons to Glory!]

What a wonderful testimony - thanks so much for posting!

So check this out - I have been asking the Lord to speak to me more loudly and clearly and that I could hear His speaking better. Then last night I had a dream in which a brother told me, "Keep your eyes on Jesus!" I woke up with that firmly in my head and thanked the Lord for His speaking. Then when listening to this video just a little later, the recovered brother exhorted us to, "Keep your eyes upon Him - turn your eyes upon Jesus!"

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I listened to Piper's 5 minute intro you shared (above link), and it really whet my appetite to hear the entire 2 hour audio book ("Coronavisus and Christ") you pasted - thanks again!

Cronavirus and Christ audio book here

I began listening to the book last night, bumped up the speed to 1.25. I still fell asleep... I really was liking what I heard and bought the book this morning so I could see the words. Here is the best synopsis I think. It is John Piper's amazing prayer at the end of the book:

Father,

At our best moments, by your grace, we are not sleeping in Gethsemane. We are awake and listening to your Son’s prayer. He knows, deep down, that he must suffer. But in his perfect humanity, he cries out, “If it is possible, let this cup pass.”

In the same way, we sense, deep down, that this pandemic is appointed, in your wisdom, for good and necessary purposes. We too must suffer. Your Son was innocent. We are not. Yet with him in our less-than-perfect humanity, we too cry out, “If it is possible, let this cup pass.” Do quickly, O Lord, the painful, just, and merciful work you have resolved to do. Do not linger in judgment. Do not delay your compassion.

Remember the poor, O Lord, according to your mercy. Do not forget the cry of the afflicted. Grant recovery. Grant a cure. Deliver us—your poor, helpless creatures—from these sorrows, we pray. But do not waste our misery and grief, O Lord. Purify your people from powerless preoccupation with barren materialism and Christless entertainment. Put our mouths out of taste with the bait of Satan. Cut from us the roots and remnant of pride and hate and unjust ways. Grant us capacities of outrage at our own belittling of your glory. Open the eyes of our hearts to see and savor the beauty of Christ. Incline our hearts to your word, your Son, and your way. Fill us with compassionate courage. And make a name for yourself in the way your people serve.

Stretch forth your hand in great awakening for the sake of this perishing world. Let the terrible words of Revelation not be spoken over this generation: “Yet still they did not repent.” As you have stricken bodies, strike now the slumbering souls. Forbid that they would remain asleep in the darkness of pride and unbelief. In your great mercy, say to these bones, “Live!” And bring the hearts and lives of millions into alignment with the infinite worth of Jesus. In Jesus’s name, amen.

Piper, John. Coronavirus and Christ . Crossway. Kindle Edition.


Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Awesome prayer! Amen & AMEN!!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hard to believe God would answer a prayer for a Coke. Pretty amazing, eh?

Ohio, I love how the Lord gifted him what he wanted and also what he needed(the oranges). God is the best gift giver....

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Piper, John. Coronavirus and Christ . Crossway. Kindle Edition.[/I]

I love this prayer, I am gonna borrow it and pray-read it with my kids at bedtime.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What a wonderful testimony - thanks so much for posting!

So check this out - I have been asking the Lord to speak to me more loudly and clearly and that I could hear His speaking better. Then last night I had a dream in which a brother told me, "Keep your eyes on Jesus!" I woke up with that firmly in my head and thanked the Lord for His speaking. Then when listening to this video, the brother exhorted us to, "Keep your eyes upon Him - turn your eyes upon Jesus!"

Sweet. Thanks so much for sharing this, StG. I feel like I am in the Lords' chain mail to you. And, this word really resonates with me. (To keep our eyes trained on the Lord). I see and hear so many crazy conspiracy theories, so much wickedness flies about us, it is hard to discern what is real and what is nonsense......but my feeling is to not be concerned with it all, but be steadfast in looking away unto Him. My poor mother in law actually believes the virus was engineered in a lab for the purpose of murdering older people. That there are people in Congress who hate them and want them gone. It is all so mental. She needs Jesus! But rejects Him. May the Lord turn her heart.

I love Him, don't you? He is so good to answer prayer....I had a similar experience 2,3 years ago when I had been praying something similar....that He would speak to me in a way I would know for sure...I really wanted to be clear. I had prayed for that a few times when one day, the dog came in with poop stuck in his fur(a thick coated poodle) and I have all my little ones running around, and I couldn't find a tool that would help us, scissors and trimmers were too dull.....I was just filled with rising panic at the fear of my kids getting sick from contact....I was calling Him, Lord Jesus! and before His whole name was out of my mouth, He told me, 'Don't be afraid! I am not afraid.' It is so hard to explain how He conveyed this, it was as if it was written across my mind and I could see it. The amazing thing was the fear and panicky feeling simply evaporated. Immediately. He commanded it, then it just was given to me. What is neat is, in an academic setting or even in a personal setting, I really can only take and retain information when I read it. I can't simply hear it, I have to read it. So His response to me was so very personal....so what I needed. He is just awesome, brother!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

And, this word really resonates with me. (To keep our eyes trained on the Lord). I see and hear so many crazy conspiracy theories, so much wickedness flies about us, it is hard to discern what is real and what is nonsense......but my feeling is to not be concerned with it all, but be steadfast in looking away unto Him. My poor mother in law actually believes the virus was engineered in a lab for the purpose of murdering older people. That there are people in Congress who hate them and want them gone. It is all so mental. She needs Jesus! But rejects Him. May the Lord turn her heart.

I love Him, don't you? He is so good to answer prayer....I had a similar experience 2,3 years ago when I had been praying something similar....that He would speak to me in a way I would know for sure...I really wanted to be clear. I had prayed for that a few times when one day, the dog came in with poop stuck in his fur(a thick coated poodle) and I have all my little ones running around, and I couldn't find a tool that would help us, scissors and trimmers were too dull.....I was just filled with rising panic at the fear of my kids getting sick from contact....I was calling Him, Lord Jesus! and before His whole name was out of my mouth, He told me, 'Don't be afraid! I am not afraid.' It is so hard to explain how He conveyed this, it was as if it was written across my mind and I could see it. The amazing thing was the fear and panicky feeling simply evaporated. Immediately. He commanded it, then it just was given to me. What is neat is, in an academic setting or even in a personal setting, I really can only take and retain information when I read it. I can't simply hear it, I have to read it. So His response to me was so very personal....so what I needed. He is just awesome, brother!

Great testimony here, including the need for visual info (better write it down or I'll forget), the dog disaster (won't get into my own story,) and the conspiracies (I hear them too, and some I believe.) The difficulty which thoughtful folks face these days is knowing that we are not being told the truth, at least not the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That seems to be true about everything. So what do we do with all of our unanswered questions? Inquiring minds need to know.

After identifying with your plight, I was reminded of this verse.

... I was inflicted with a thorn in my body, a messenger of the Devil, tormenting me ... 2 Cor 12.7

Here Paul sought the Lord urgently. He was inflicted much the same as we are now. What to do? Why and what is happening? I'm sure the beloved physician Luke did his best to help, trying all known cures, and then some more. Today, like a thorn, a spirit of fear is tormenting all mankind.

Then the Lord made it clear that He was in control. He said, "My grace." The thorn then, served a purpose, God's purpose. The source of it all was the Devil, but God's people were not abandoned by God. He was in control. There is a reason He allowed the catastrophe. His abundant grace is promised to us. We can trust Him. The King of kings is on the throne. And He loves us, always has. Be at peace, no need to fear.

[Sons to Glory!]

Have listened to part 1 of Piper's free audio book (linked below) and it is really good and germane for the present hour. A great and famous paraphrased quote (heard very end of part 1 at about the 1 hour mark): "I am immortal until Christ's work through me is done!" This conveys the absolute sovereignty of God.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great testimony here, including the need for visual info (better write it down or I'll forget), the dog disaster (won't get into my own story,) and the conspiracies (I hear them too, and some I believe.) The difficulty which thoughtful folks face these days is knowing that we are not being told the truth, at least not the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That seems to be true about everything. So what do we do with all of our unanswered questions? Inquiring minds need to know.

After identifying with your plight, I was reminded of this verse.
Here Paul sought the Lord urgently. He was inflicted much the same as we are now. What to do? Why and what is happening? I'm sure the beloved physician Luke did his best to help, trying all known cures, and then some more. Today, like a thorn, a spirit of fear is tormenting all mankind.

Then the Lord made it clear that He was in control. He said, "My grace." The thorn then, served a purpose, God's purpose. The source of it all was the Devil, but God's people were not abandoned by God. He was in control. There is a reason He allowed the catastrophe. His abundant grace is promised to us. We can trust Him. The King of kings is on the throne. And He loves us, always has. Be at peace, no need to fear.

Yes, Ohio. Jesus displayed His authority over the spiritual world when He cast the legion out of the crazed man, and allowed them into the swine herd. He displayed His authority over the physical world when He commanded the storm to still, crossing the sea.

Seen world? Check.
Unseen world? Check. Jesus has it All under His authority.

[Sons to Glory!]

WOW - has anyone else completed their listening to Piper's free online audio book about the coronavirus? I have just now finished it and it is timely, impactful and anointed! The Word is sharp and dividing in this message for both believer and unbeliever!

Coronavirus & Christ audio book

(FYI: About 2 hours long, but sounds real good when playback speed is increased to 1.25)

[Redeemed]

Almost there. To me there is nothing more rock bottom solid and comforting than knowing that God is sovereign in all things. It strengthens me from the inside out!
I liked Piper's words about sorrowful yet always rejoicing, and (my interpretation) how the bitterness of God's dealings are enveloped in such love and tender mercy that they it can't be understood until you go there with Him.

No wonder Job talked about things too wonderful to understand as he repented in dust and ashes.

Awe-some

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

WOW - has anyone else completed their listening to Piper's free online audio book about the coronavirus? I have just now finished it and it is timely, impactful and anointed![/SIZE] [SIZE="3"]The Word is sharp and dividing in this message for both believer and unbeliever!

Coronavirus & Christ audio book

(FYI: About 2 hours long, but sounds real good when playback speed is increased to 1.25)

Yes. I also bought the book. Post #46.

[Sons to Glory!]

Various links have been posted for the audio & print of Piper's "Coronavirus & Christ book (free) . . . here's one link for the all versions: Desiring God website

[OBW]

BTW, presuming that Covid-19 might be orchestrated by God as a so-called "Great Awakening" seems problematic to me. The one true God sends a plague that attacks primarily the weakest and the elderly rather than the strong, and expects anyone other than a few tea-leaf readers to recognize it as coming from the God of the universe? The examples in the Bible were a direct hit on the people he wanted to reach, not to others, including the entire world that mostly does not recognize him as God.

If there is a wake-up call for the church, then why was the message sent a few doors down the street? I think this is more like continued proof of the fall. There is evil in the world and it periodically acts through other than evil men or the weather. Should we "return to God?" For any of his people that have strayed, then the answer is always "yes."

But this presumption of detailed sovereignty does not square with any teaching or example I can find in scripture. Could he do it? Surely. But did he? It appears out of character relative to the revelation of God I see.

[Nell]

Does the coronavirus have a prophetic significance? To answer your question, yes. Isaiah prophesied that God will shake the whole earth. God is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it. Hebrews 12:26 - 27 (NIV) says, “‘Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.’ The words ‘once more’ indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.”

You have to get that in the spirit realm. What is this prophetic word? Here it is. That everything that can be shaken is being shaken. The economies, which people have put their faith in. Political systems, which they have put their faith in and governments. Education. It shut down. Even the Church. Shut down. You have never had a time like this in your lifetime or has this nation. Everything we put our security in is being shaken. All of our idols are coming down. You say, as a preacher, that we have idols in our lives? Yes. An idol is anything that gets between us and God. Anything. It could be money or family or shopping or sports or fame or more education or status. Whatever we treasure and consumes us is an idol. It could even be your church. It could even be your pastor. (Your MOTA?) Emphasis added.

You may have seen an ad for a Mike Evans and David Wilkerson prophecy. I have not heard of Mike Evans, but I looked him up. This is a quote from that “prophecy” document (14 pp). Overall, it was pretty far-out, but I think this quote provides a little perspective. It seems to set the times we’re living in now apart from all other “great awakenings.” No one can deny that the entire world is being shaken and because of the massive communication capabilities of the Internet, we all KNOW about it. This has never happened before...I don’t think. BOOM!

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

BTW, presuming that Covid-19 might be orchestrated by God as a so-called "Great Awakening" seems problematic to me. The one true God sends a plague that attacks primarily the weakest and the elderly rather than the strong, and expects anyone other than a few tea-leaf readers to recognize it as coming from the God of the universe? The examples in the Bible were a direct hit on the people he wanted to reach, not to others, including the entire world that mostly does not recognize him as God.

If there is a wake-up call for the church, then why was the message sent a few doors down the street? I think this is more like continued proof of the fall. There is evil in the world and it periodically acts through other than evil men or the weather. Should we "return to God?" For any of his people that have strayed, then the answer is always "yes."

But this presumption of detailed sovereignty does not square with any teaching or example I can find in scripture. Could he do it? Surely. But did he? It appears out of character relative to the revelation of God I see.

As Nell said, the point is shaking. Everything that can be shaken will be and that is for our own good!

The book of Revelation is about two competing kingdoms - the kingdom of darkness/death and the kingdom of the Son of His love. Things will be fully manifested at the end as to what their source is. The fruit of the two trees must be fully developed, so all can see their result clearly. In love, He sends judgments for the purpose that all fruit of the bad tree will be shaken, so that many more will come to the unshakable True One (and that includes believers and those who don't).

[OBW]

Sorry. I don't buy the presumption of active determinism in everything that happens. I admit that we should always take any warning we received, whether it is actually intended as such, or is something that hits us in the head and we read it as a wake-up call. But trying to insist on the active intent of God in causing this virus for a purpose just isn't supportable. The OT events were directed at Israel for their benefit. God didn't punish the Ethiopians to warn the Jews. He punished the Jews.

As Jesus said (or asked) "Do you think that only the wicked died when that tower fell?"

This kind of thinking seems to be a kind of folk theology.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

Sorry. I don't buy the presumption of active determinism in everything that happens. I admit that we should always take any warning we received, whether it is actually intended as such, or is something that hits us in the head and we read it as a wake-up call. But trying to insist on the active intent of God in causing this virus for a purpose just isn't supportable. The OT events were directed at Israel for their benefit. God didn't punish the Ethiopians to warn the Jews. He punished the Jews.

As Jesus said (or asked) "Do you think that only the wicked died when that tower fell?"

This kind of thinking seems to be a kind of folk theology.

How do you explain the events depicted in Revelation then, that is, all the judgement that are purposefully poured out? Is that done because God hates man or loves man?

[Jo S]

I'll have to agree with OBW on this. To claim that the Coronavirus is a direct cause of God is claiming prophecy. I understand that in the LC's members are taught to be fast and loose with prophecy, but caution and discipline have to be practiced with these kinds of presumptions.

In Revelation, the plagues that take place happen “immediately after the distress of those days”. These plagues are to show the rebellious heart of man. This is also at a time when the restrainer, or the Holy Spirit, who is working today through the the body of Christ on earth will have been completely removed. So when these plagues come, everyone will know it's God's judgment. It'll be in a time much worse then this, but it seems we are getting closer each and every day.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'll have to agree with OBW on this. To claim that the Coronavirus is a direct cause of God is claiming prophecy. I understand that in the LC's members are taught to be fast and loose with prophecy, but caution and discipline have to be practiced with these kinds of presumptions.

In Revelation, the plagues that take place happen “immediately after the distress of those days”. These plagues are to show the rebellious heart of man. This is also at a time when the restrainer, or the Holy Spirit, who is working today through the the body of Christ on earth will have been completely removed. So when these plagues come, everyone will know it's God's judgment. It'll be in a time much worse then this, but it seems we are getting closer each and every day.

So God does not use things like this to shake men's hearts so men may turn to Him and live?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So God does not use things like this to shake men's hearts so men may turn to Him and live?

Of course. Scripture is clear that even things which are meant for evil, God can use for good. But it doesn't mean they're directly from him.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Of course. Scripture is clear that even things which are meant for evil, God can use for good. But it doesn't mean they're directly from him.

A mystery . . .

Has anyone else listened to Piper's free audio book, mentioned earlier on in this thread? I'm curious as to others' take on it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Of course. Scripture is clear that even things which are meant for evil, God can use for good. But it doesn't mean they're directly from him.

Yet...it doesn't mean these "things" are not from him.

OBW: "I don't buy the presumption of active determinism in everything that happens."

No one said everything. We're just talking about COVID19...not everything.

It's just a conversation. Is John Piper wrong? He has an opinion, just like all of us do. I think we can hear him out...it's just a conversation.

Nell

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yet...it doesn't mean these "things" are not from him. No one said everything. We're just talking about COVID19...not everything. It's just a conversation. Is John Piper wrong? He has an opinion, just like all of us do. I think we can hear him out...it's just a conversation.

I suppose that is true. I personally haven't received word from the LORD either way.

While I remain neutral to the cause of the Corona Virus, the reaction to it doesn't accurately reflect history. This leads me to believe at least the situation is being opportunistically politicized.

While it seems the virus is more deadly than Influenza, it's only marginally so. It's definitely not on the level of threat as something like Ebola for example.

I don't know what is going on beyond that but without getting too conspiratorial I do get the sense that the spirit of the world is heavily involved in this. No doubt the LORD is at work as well.

[Sons to Glory!]

I thought of Job's situation as pertaining to understanding all this and read what I thought to be a great synopsis online: https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/oldtestament/section11/

I espcially liked this sentence at the very end:
"God suggests that people should not discuss divine justice since God’s power is so great that humans cannot possibly justify his ways."

It fits well at this discussion I think. (I just wonder which of Job's friend/advisors I would be . . .)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

How do you explain the events depicted in Revelation then, that is, all the judgement that are purposefully poured out? Is that done because God hates man or loves man?

I see three eras.

The first is the OT where God declared that he would punish Israel if they were disobedient. (Yes, he also punished Sodom, and threatened to do the same to Nineveh, among others.) And he sent warnings in some cases stating their error and giving them a chance to repent.

The second is the NT era prior to the end times. That is where we are now. There is clearly promises of difficulty during this time. But no indication of warnings to be given to the church in the manner as was done to/for Israel. We have been given the scripture and the Spirit and should not need overt warnings. There is no promise to take action on nations, leaders, etc. But just as has happened throughout history, nations rise and fall. Both good and bad leaders take power all over the earth and eventually both are overthrown. Yet the church persists.

Then comes the end times. As part of that, there will be judgment for all the earth. It has endured the general judgment that came with the fall, but not the direct and active punishment of God. There are several word pictures indicating that this happens, though the precision as to how it happens is not clear.

Since I believe that we are in the second of those three periods of time, I do not generally understand the cycles of nature, and the whims of man as necessarily messages from God. Not saying he cannot do it or does not. But to think that because there is a pandemic that God is saying something specific beyond what he is always saying — “repent” — is little more than presumption. I cannot find evidence of such events in this era being that kind of prophetic warning.

Should we repent if we need to? (And we always do.) Of course. But what should we repent for? The sins of the evil age in which we live, or our own sins? I suggest it is the latter. Now I think the church has a lot to repent for. Seeking to gain political power to accomplish what only God can do in the lives of those who do not profess belief in Christ. Ignoring the poor, widow, orphan, and alien. Should I continue? We should repent for not living in obedience to the righteousness of God. For not bearing the image of God while we claim to be His ambassadors.

But from what I can see, for the most part the church is not seeing any actual call to repentance, but rather seeing a need to perfect the moral righteousness of the heathen without first leading them to faith in the God who calls for that righteousness. We are so quick to decry such backwards thinking within the church, but instead force it upon the heathen anyway.

[Nell]

Just to clarify, the virus itself is the catalyst for the shaking that is going on worldwide (to paraphrase J. Piper):
1. The economies, which people have put their faith in is shaken to the core virtually worldwide.
2. Political systems and governments are shaken.
3. Education. Shut down.
4. Churches. Shut down.
You have never had a time like this in your lifetime or has this nation.
Looks like some "evidence" to me. It's not happenstance, is it?

The eternal message of God has been to "repent." When repentance did not come, action was taken. Throughout scripture, when men did not repent according the words of the prophets, there was a price to pay...a shaking. It's presumption to think that in the absence of repentance, God would not take action of some sort...to shake. God's "shaking" often precedes repentance. Call it "incentive".

A mother who tells her kid "don't do that" while the kid continues to misbehave, eventually applies a good "shake" to get their attention. So the message of repentance is not contradictory to what's actually happening today. No need to overthink it.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I see three eras.

The first is the OT where God declared that he would punish Israel if they were disobedient. (Yes, he also punished Sodom, and threatened to do the same to Nineveh, among others.) And he sent warnings in some cases stating their error and giving them a chance to repent.

The second is the NT era prior to the end times. That is where we are now. There is clearly promises of difficulty during this time. But no indication of warnings to be given to the church in the manner as was done to/for Israel. We have been given the scripture and the Spirit and should not need overt warnings. There is no promise to take action on nations, leaders, etc. But just as has happened throughout history, nations rise and fall. Both good and bad leaders take power all over the earth and eventually both are overthrown. Yet the church persists.

Then comes the end times. As part of that, there will be judgment for all the earth. It has endured the general judgment that came with the fall, but not the direct and active punishment of God. There are several word pictures indicating that this happens, though the precision as to how it happens is not clear.

Since I believe that we are in the second of those three periods of time, I do not generally understand the cycles of nature, and the whims of man as necessarily messages from God. Not saying he cannot do it or does not. But to think that because there is a pandemic that God is saying something specific beyond what he is always saying — “repent” — is little more than presumption. I cannot find evidence of such events in this era being that kind of prophetic warning.

Should we repent if we need to? (And we always do.) Of course. But what should we repent for? The sins of the evil age in which we live, or our own sins? I suggest it is the latter. Now I think the church has a lot to repent for. Seeking to gain political power to accomplish what only God can do in the lives of those who do not profess belief in Christ. Ignoring the poor, widow, orphan, and alien. Should I continue? We should repent for not living in obedience to the righteousness of God. For not bearing the image of God while we claim to be His ambassadors.

But from what I can see, for the most part the church is not seeing any actual call to repentance, but rather seeing a need to perfect the moral righteousness of the heathen without first leading them to faith in the God who calls for that righteousness. We are so quick to decry such backwards thinking within the church, but instead force it upon the heathen anyway.

Mike, I like everything you wrote here! But I also believe Nell has a good point regarding shaking and the uniqueness of the situation. How about this verse: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17 That's sobering . . .

To me the message is pretty clear - Christians (those who are called by My name) repent!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

Throughout scripture, when men did not repent according the words of the prophets, there was a price to pay...a shaking. It's presumption to think that in the absence of repentance, God would not take action of some sort...to shake. God's "shaking" often precedes repentance. Call it "incentive".

Where are the prophets today? That office ended with John the Baptist. We have the spirit of prophesy which is the spirit of Jesus and he left us with Revelation.

The more I think about it, the only pestilence specifically decreed by God in these last days will be the one's spoken of in Revelation because we are not in the age of the prophets anymore, where God's wrath was poured out, but we are in the age of grace. I'm still leaning towards this whole situation as being purposely blown out of control. For what purpose exactly? I don't know.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Where are the prophets today? That office ended with John the Baptist.

And He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists and some shepherds and teachers . . . until we all arrive . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Just to clarify, the virus itself is the catalyst for the shaking that is going on worldwide (to paraphrase J. Piper):
1. The economies, which people have put their faith in is shaken to the core virtually worldwide.
2. Political systems and governments are shaken.
3. Education. Shut down.
4. Churches. Shut down.
You have never had a time like this in your lifetime or has this nation.
Looks like some "evidence" to me. It's not happenstance, is it?

The eternal message of God has been to "repent."

Nell, said another way, has not every man and woman on earth been forced to ask, "what is going on?"

Is this not a heavenly preparation for something to come?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Where are the prophets today? That office ended with John the Baptist. We have the spirit of prophesy which is the spirit of Jesus and he left us with Revelation.

The more I think about it, the only pestilence specifically decreed by God in these last days will be the one's spoken of in Revelation because we are not in the age of the prophets anymore, where God's wrath was poured out, but we are in the age of grace. I'm still leaning towards this whole situation as being purposely blown out of control. For what purpose exactly? I don't know.

Wow. Just wow. This "whole situation" isn't being purposely blown out of control. This whole situation IS out of control. That is, it's clearly beyond the control of man. The entire world is shaking. We don't need a prophet to figure that out. Rather, listen to "him who speaks from heaven."

The purpose: "...that those things which cannot be shaken may remain."

Heb. 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth (the prophets), much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Nell

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists and some shepherds and teachers . . . until we all arrive . . .

Of course prophesy exists today, that's not what I was implying. Prophesy today however is used to edify the church. It's purpose is to build up and not to condemn. It differs from the functions of the Old Testament prophets. In Luke 16:16 and Matthew 11:13 Jesus makes that distinction.

The main purpose of the prophets of old was to usher in the Messiah. But other functions were to write scripture and to warn God's people of His impending wrath. You don't see that now because Revelation is the final book in scripture and the last prophecy of God's judgments given to the church. In Christ's death Gods wrath was satisfied until the time the 7 bowls of judgment will be poured out.

So if you hear any so called "prophets" declaring this or that pestilence is from God, I'd think twice before accepting their word. Too many of today's "super apostles", John Piper is one, are trying to act as the prophets of old warning the Church of God's impending wrath and adding to scripture rather than focusing on proclaiming the gospel. These are false prophets or at best mistaken Christians.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

Wow. Just wow. This "whole situation" isn't being purposely blown out of control. This whole situation IS out of control. That is, it's clearly beyond the control of man. The entire world is shaking. We don't need a prophet to figure that out. Rather, listen to "him who speaks from heaven."

The purpose: "...that those things which cannot be shaken may remain."

Heb. 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth (the prophets), much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Nell

Nell, the shaking in Hebrews 12 I believe is in reference to Revelation 6:14 & 16:17

The reaction to Covid-19 as being overly exaggerated is just a gut feeling I have. I'm not claiming prophecy on this. Perhaps when all the dust settles we will more clearly understand what happened.

[Sons to Glory!]

Daily Light

April 27th

For yet a little while and He who is coming will come and not tarry. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Hebrews 10:37, Romans 13:12, 1 Peter 4:7

[Nell]

Does anyone (but me) think it’s reeeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy interesting that a herd of “murder hornets” from Asia are reported in the U.S.? Really bad dudes. Like a plague?

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

Does anyone (but me) think it’s reeeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy interesting that a herd of “murder hornets” from Asia are reported in the U.S.? Really bad dudes. Like a plague?

Nell

Yes, interesting . . . . also the massive swarms of locusts in northern Africa they can't seem to control.

I was in the Revelation training of the LC back in the 70s. I keep remembering hearing about how there would first be "natural calamities" followed by "supernatural calamities." It does make me wonder . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Does anyone (but me) think it’s reeeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy interesting that a herd of “murder hornets” from Asia are reported in the U.S.? Really bad dudes. Like a plague?

Nell

Incredible video of the way Asian bees kill giant “murder hornets.”

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Incredible video of the way Asian bees kill giant “murder hornets.”

Amazing video...

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Incredible video of the way Asian bees kill giant “murder hornets.”

Well, the solution to the giant hornets is simple then - just bring those Japanese bees over here!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Mike, I like everything you wrote here! But I also believe Nell has a good point regarding shaking and the uniqueness of the situation. How about this verse: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17 That's sobering . . .

To me the message is pretty clear - Christians (those who are called by My name) repent!

First, the situation is not that unique. It seems that way to us because we have not seen this kind of thing during our lifetime. Yet there have been much worse events in the past. Just 100 years ago there was the so-called Spanish flu (that seems to have originated in Kansas). Killed proportionately many more than Covid-19 has, though it is likely far from over (definitely not just going to disappear as some are saying).

Yes, the time has come for judgment to begin. And it began all the way back in the first century, as Peter wrote. And he did not need a pandemic to come to this conclusion. And the judgment he wrote about was not some external judgment upon the earth. It was about judgment on the house of God. It was a time of persecution. But he also said that the end was near. (And while the end times may not have been as near as he thought, it was still no more than a few years for anyone alive at the time.) Yes, he rightly pointed to the fact that if there is judgment on the house of God, then it will be much greater on those who do not obey.

But how do we respond to a pandemic? Do we retreat into solitude and prayer? Surely, if we have not been praying enough, we should remedy that. And if we have been in some kind of stupor, we should awaken. But ultimately we should find ourselves living in obedience to God's commands.

And, interestingly, the cycle of wars and pandemics seems to constantly remind us that we are not simply our own. That we are not just citizens of one earthly kingdom or another. We are also citizens of the heavenly kingdom. We have duties as citizens of that kingdom. And if we have forgotten them, then we should be awakened. We do need to pray. But there should be no mystery as to what our reaction should be. We already know what we should do. It has not changed. It just takes a new riding of famine, war, pestilence, and/or death through our midst to awaken us to our condition. Yes we, the church, should repent. But don't just stay mired in sackcloth and ashes. As we repent, we should move toward the actions of obedience. Any judgment on us is not about homosexuals, foreigners, liberals, communists, fascists, gay marriage, abortion, etc. Surely that is not us. But have we turned our judgment and faux righteousness on the world instead of loving them while they are yet sinners?

I doubt that this particular pandemic was sovereignly "sent" to bring the church to its knees. Yet the very action of the cycles of such events should shake us from our stupor. And as Paul wrote, God will use everything to our benefit. He didn't say he would ordain that everything happen so that we would get a benefit. But whatever does happen, he will use it. And in the onward march of time through the fall, (in other words, from Adam until the end) there will be pandemics, wars, disease, and more.

And Revelation seems to be telling us to expect that there will be so-called messiahs who promise much but produce little. And the cycle of evil continues. And the end will come. One way or the other. Our day of reckoning is coming. Today, tomorrow, and a few years. Due to our personal death or the actual end of times. Be ready. Be proactive such that the cycle of pandemics does not shake you. Live as citizens in the kingdom of God no matter the conditions. But expect that the results of the fall will continue, and will wreak havoc on mankind. And if you need a reminder of the frailty of man, just wait. There will be a war. Or a rumor of war. Someone will take action in the form of a protest that will run counter to what you believe to be best.

But the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking. Or worldly kingdoms repenting. Or heathen and pagans acting like Christians — without Christ inside. (It is funny that we claim to be unable to be righteous without Christ yet we want the world to do it anyway.) The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace (not fear), and joy (not anger) in the Holy Spirit (not our so-called human spirit).

And for some of us, this particular pandemic has awakened us to our lack of righteousness, peace, and/or joy. SARS didn't do it. Nor the Swine flu. Nor the latest mall, school, or workplace shootings. Nor the collapse of the twin towers (though that one did affect some positively). Bernie didn't do it for those on the right, and Trump didn't do it for those on the left. They just upped the level of angst, joylessness, and unrighteousness. And looking at the responses to the coronavirus, it would seem that there are many who are Christian who still have not gotten the memo. They just want to make a political fight out of it. Keep their sanctuary open and running full force. Demand their "inalienable rights" while dismissing the responsibilities that go with those rights.

They weigh the relative value of an open economy to the value of the death of the citizens. But what is the currency they are using? Just the dollar?

I guess life is cheap.

And I'm not sure that much has "awakened" beyond a sense of increased desire to get what is mine. I hope that any of us that needed spiritual awakening have arisen from slumber. It seems that society has not. And will not.

[Sons to Glory!]

A good read, Mike, a good read!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, said another way, has not every man and woman on earth been forced to ask, "what is going on?"

Is this not a heavenly preparation for something to come?

Ohio,

Yep. Seems pretty simple to me. Isn’t the purpose of a “great awakening” to first: WAKE UP??

No one knows the truth of what God is, or isn’t, doing in 2020. Speculate, explain, minimize, but do we know for sure?

“John Piper is a ‘false prophet’” —-until he isn’t.

Luke 21 tells us to “look up and lift up your heads”.
Further:
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, “what’s going on?” We don’t know, but surely it’s a heavenly preparation for something that is coming. When? We don’t know. It just might be a good idea to pay attention.

What ISN’T going on? We don’t know that either, but it’s an even better reason to pay attention.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

Yep. Seems pretty simple to me. Isn’t the purpose of a “great awakening” to first: WAKE UP??

No one knows the truth of what God is, or isn’t, doing in 2020. Speculate, explain, minimize, but do we know for sure?

“John Piper is a ‘false prophet’” —-until he isn’t.

Luke 21 tells us to “look up and lift up your heads”.
Further:
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, “what’s going on?” We don’t know, but surely it’s a heavenly preparation for something that is coming. When? We don’t know. It just might be a good idea to pay attention.

What ISN’T going on? We don’t know that either, but it’s an even better reason to pay attention.

Nell

Yup! Like a brother who was sharing awhile back said (after we had done a couple months of study regarding to Lord's return): " We don't know all the details about this or that thing, or the timing of this or that event, but the bottom-line is - BE READY!"

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yep. Seems pretty simple to me. Isn’t the purpose of a “great awakening” to first: WAKE UP??

No one knows the truth of what God is, or isn’t, doing in 2020. Speculate, explain, minimize, but do we know for sure?

“John Piper is a ‘false prophet’” —-until he isn’t.

Nell, perhaps these two links may help. In them two sisters in the Lord share their experience and wisdom concerning Piper's ministry.

Link 1

Link 2

With research I'm confident you'll find that going from Nee/Lee to John Piper is no more than a lateral move.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Nell, perhaps these two links may help. In them two sisters in the Lord share their experience and wisdom concerning Piper's ministry.

Link 1

Link 2

With research I'm confident you'll find that going from Nee/Lee to John Piper is no more than a lateral move.

Nell, I've looked at both of these links and have an opinion (that's a big surprise! ). But before I spout off, lets see what you have to say . . .

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Nell, I've looked at both of these links and have an opinion (that's a big surprise! ). But before I spout off, lets see what you have to say . . .

StG/JoS,

Here’s what I have to say:

I don’t follow Piper, never have, and I don’t know enough about him to have an opinion. My point wasn’t Piper.
Jo S: I have made no such “lateral move” to Piper, so I can’t go down that bunny trail.

Perhaps you could read my post #87 again. I would be interested in your response to #87 sans reference to Piper. Sorry.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

Yep. Seems pretty simple to me. Isn’t the purpose of a “great awakening” to first: WAKE UP??

No one knows the truth of what God is, or isn’t, doing in 2020. Speculate, explain, minimize, but do we know for sure?

Luke 21 tells us to “look up and lift up your heads”.
Further:
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, “what’s going on?” We don’t know, but surely it’s a heavenly preparation for something that is coming. When? We don’t know. It just might be a good idea to pay attention.

What ISN’T going on? We don’t know that either, but it’s an even better reason to pay attention.

Nell

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

StG/JoS,

Here’s what I have to say:

I don’t follow Piper, never have, and I don’t know enough about him to have an opinion. My point wasn’t Piper.
Jo S: I have made no such “lateral move” to Piper, so I can’t go down that bunny trail.

Perhaps you could read my post #87 again. I would be interested in your response to #87 sans reference to Piper. Sorry.

Nell

Hi Nell, my comments on Piper were more of a warning seeing as you and others were being drawn to his teachings. I didn't assume you were a follower.

So to sum up my position on whether or not God is directly involved in this Covid situation is this;

I believe scripture teaches that Jesus' death on the cross satisfied God's wrath until the time of judgment when the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls of judgment are poured out onto mankind.

In my mind to claim that this virus is God's doing is essentially saying that He is in the process of judging mankind. This premise directly contradicts revelation given in scripture as there are many things that have to first take place before His judgment through pestilence in Revelation occurs.

To me it's not a matter of waiting to see whether or not John Piper is right, he's already falsely prophesying by contradicting what we already know in scripture.

It's also written that there will be signs and wonders performed by the anti-Christ in the last days that'll be so great even the very elect will be deceived if it were possible.

When I look at how a virus not much deadlier than influenza shut down the entire world, I tend to categorize the response to this pandemic as "signs and wonders" rather than God's judgment.

One thing is for sure, we can agree that we are in the last days.

Does that answer your question?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Hi Nell, my comments on Piper were more of a warning seeing as you and others were being drawn to his teachings. I didn't assume you were a follower.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Nell, perhaps these two links may help. In them two sisters in the Lord share their experience and wisdom concerning Piper's ministry.
...
With research I'm confident you'll find that going from Nee/Lee to John Piper is no more than a lateral move.

You didn’t “assume”. You implied. And as I said, I made no lateral moves to John Piper.

So to sum up my position on whether or not God is directly involved in this Covid situation is this;

I believe scripture teaches that Jesus' death on the cross satisfied God's wrath until the time of judgment when the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls of judgment are poured out onto mankind.

In my mind to say that this virus is God's doing is essentially saying that He is in the process of judging mankind. This premise directly contradicts revelation given in scripture as there are many things that have to first take place before His judgment through pestilence in Revelation occurs.

To me it's not a matter of waiting to see whether or not John Piper is right, he's already falsely prophesying because he's contradicting what we already know in scripture.

It's also written that there will be signs and wonders preformed by the anti-Christ in the last days that'll be so great even the very elect will be deceived if it were possible.

When I look at how a virus not much deadlier than influenza shut down the entire world, I tend to lean more toward the "signs and wonders" category rather than it being God's judgment.

One thing is for sure, we can agree that we are in the last days.

So I’ll repeat my point: Look up! Wake up! We don’t know. We probably shouldn’t take comfort in opinions, reasonings and speculations. Putting God in a box is probably not a good an idea. He can do what he wants, when he wants. Better to “take heed” and/or “watch therefore”.

Does that answer your question?

I didn’t ask a question. I said I would be interested in your response. Thank you for responding.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

To me it's not a matter of waiting to see whether or not John Piper is right, he's already falsely prophesying by contradicting what we already know in scripture.

Jo, could you please tell us who you think IS on the right track among Christian teachers?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

You didn’t “assume”. You implied. And as I said, I made no lateral moves to John Piper.

If I was implying that I would have used the words "having gone from" rather than "going from". It was a courtesy because there are those that follow Piper on the forum. You're free to accept it or not.

Originally Posted by Nell

So I’ll repeat my point: Look up! Wake up! We don’t know. We probably shouldn’t take comfort in opinions, reasonings and speculations. Putting God in a box is probably not a good an idea. He can do what he wants, when he wants. Better to “take heed” and/or “watch therefore”.

I agree, we should keep watch as scripture urges us to. We may not be able to put God in a box but we can rely on what He's given us in scripture. It's not a matter of what God can or cannot do, but what will God do and He won't go against His word.

My position is that if you have repented and received the Holy Spirit you are in no need that any man should teach you the truth (1 Jn 2:27). The danger with prophecy is, if you are contradicting scripture you are painting a different picture of who God is so when guys like Piper come along with a prophetic word we should be diligent in critiquing what he is claiming against scripture.

Think about this; 67,000 people in the US died of the flu in 2017. Did anyone claim it was a shaking from God then? So how come they are saying these things about Covid now? Covid isn’t the cause of all the pandemonium and disruption, it’s the human response to it. So now we are left with judging whether it is God or the spirit of the world acting through the people and influencing their reactions as a whole. I don't know about you but I lean toward the spirit of the world.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

My position is that if you have repented and received the Holy Spirit you are in no need that any man should teach you the truth (1 Jn 2:27).

Then why would the Head of the body provide Teachers as gifts to the body when we have no need for them? (Eph 4.11; Acts 13.1; I Cor 12.28)

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then why would the Head of the body provide Teachers as gifts to the body when we have no need for them? (Eph 4.11; Acts 13.1; I Cor 12.28)

John Piper isn't teaching, he's prophesying which is essentially speaking for God. Prophecy and expository teaching are not the same things. Teachers are to expound on what's already known to be true in scripture, and not to declare what is true by adding to scripture. This is what Nee and Lee did and what John Piper is doing by claiming Covid to be pestilence from God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

John Piper isn't teaching, he's prophesying which is essentially speaking for God. Prophesy and expository teaching are not the same things. Teachers are to expound on what's already known to be true in scripture, and not to declare what is true by adding to scripture. This is what Nee and Lee did and what John Piper is doing by claiming Covid to be pestilence from God.

Have you heard? God gave prophets too.

I think that the Egyptians and the Canaanites also complained that God would never send plagues their way.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you heard? God gave prophets too.

I think the the Egyptians and the Canaanites also complained that God would never send plagues their way.

He gave prophets to encourage and built up the church and not to condemn and declare God's judgments. There's a difference between OT prophecy and NT prophecy but I've already explained that...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

He gave prophets to encourage and built up the church and not to condemn and declare God's judgments. There's a difference between OT prophesy and NT prophecy but I've already explained that...

Huh?

Have you ever read Jeremiah and the other prophets?

You can read for hours and not find anything encouraging. All they do is declare God's judgments!

How about some NT prophecy in the book of Revelation? Full of God's judgments! Not much encouragement there until the very end.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh?

Have you ever read Jeremiah and the other prophets?

You can read for hours and not find anything encouraging. All they do is declare God's judgments!

How about some NT prophecy in the book of Revelation? Full of God's judgments! Not much encouragement there until the very end.

That was the point. The function of prophecy in the Old Testament differed to what prophecy should be in the church age, meaning NT prophecy. John's prophecy was the last of that kind as stated in Rev 22:18.

Prophecy today is to build up the church yet guys like Piper act like Jeremiah and declare God's judgments when instead we should be defining and declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's prophecy for today.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jo S

If I was implying that I would have used the words "having gone from" rather than "going from". It was a courtesy because there are those that follow Piper on the forum. You're free to accept it or not.

You implied. Regardless of your wordsmithing, you implied that I followed John Piper. I don’t. You’re free to accept this or not.

Think about this; 67,000 people in the US died of the flu in 2017. Did anyone claim it was a shaking from God then? So how come they are saying these things about Covid now? Covid isn’t the cause of all the pandemonium and disruption, it’s the human response to it. So now we are left with judging whether it is God or the spirit of the world acting through the people and influencing their reactions as a whole. I don't know about you but I lean toward the spirit of the world.

2017 flu deaths were, as you said, “in the US”. The ENTIRE WORLD is experiencing Covid-19, hence the word “pandemic”. That’s how come people are saying these things about Covid-19 now. This is why no one said these things in 2017.

You say “So now we are left with judging whether it is (a) God or (b) the spirit of the world acting through the people and influencing their reactions as a whole.” So, lets say you decide on option “(b)”, and what if you’re wrong?

We don’t need to make a judgment. Who has know the mind of the Lord? God could actually use the spirit of the world for his own purposes...he’s done that before. We don’t know what God is doing. Better that we “take heed” and all the other scriptural warnings we’ve been given.

Nell

[aron]

I can think of three times in history where the Christian ethos had free and unfettered access to the people's hearts and minds. The Christian faith had untrammeled hegemony, and what happened? As Witness Lee would say, "Not so good".

First was the Empire. The Christian faith was ascendant in what is now Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Persia (Iran), some of Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome, of course, and into Europe (Gaul, Spain). And what of it? They fell to fighting over who was in charge, over the meaning of the word translated as "Nature". There was no Islam - think about that. The Church was ascendant and they blew it.

Then the Holy Roman Empire, post Great-Schism.

Then the Protestant Hegemony, lasting until the 1960s (roughly). In all three cases, the Christian polity and its leaders had essentially unfettered access to the hearts, minds, and wallets of the people. Christianity largely controlled economic, political, social, and conceptual realms. And what of it? What did we do with the opportunity?

My point is simple: the "powers of the air" are still here. And when Christianity gets big, it gets co-opted. Any ministry that becomes large is suspect. Not wrong, mind you, or evil any more than any other, but we the consumers of ideas should be wary. That which is great in this age will not be great in the next. That's the rule, and everyone thinks they have the exception. But again, the spirit of the age is extremely powerful, and isn't called "the subtle one" for nothing, and we all should be wary.

How many of my posts are "good"? Huh. Please. I'm not today's Guru, just saying why I as a Christian have become more wary, as I age, of those who disseminate their concepts in hegemonic ways. What concessions have to be made, to the age. "The ruler of this world is coming, and in me he has nothing." God is good, and His Christ is now above all, glorified forever. Other than that, I am wary.

When they tried to call Jesus "good" he dismissed that. He told his followers, "If you, being evil, know to give your children good things..." Just because I give my children good things doesn't make me good. Just because I go to work on time and pay my bills and drive the speed limit and use my directional doesn't make me good. Even confessing Jesus doesn't make me good. The road is long and hard. Don't presume anything, and watch out for the grifters, the confidence men, like Nee and Lee and many others.

For instance, I remember trying to watch Jonathan Cahn, a modern-day "Christian Rabbi" and "prophet", on the Jim Bakker Show, a couple of years ago (we had an extensive discussion on this forum about Cahn). Jim Bakker, ever the huckster, was offering a promotion - give a hundred dollars and you'll get a free teddy bear. Or the full 6-CD set of prophecies. I mean, it was just awful. Have we come to this? We can sniff at this, but this to me is the part of Christian America that predators like Lee move in. Those are shark-infested waters, folks. So beware. Watch unto prayer. Keep yourself.

[Nell]

Aron, what are you saying? sorry.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Aron, what are you saying? sorry.

Nell

I think he was expounding Romans 3.4

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Jo, could you please tell us who you think IS on the right track among Christian teachers?

Jo, perhaps you missed this, so I thought to repost.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Aron, what are you saying? sorry.

Nell

Kinda like, 'wake up'. A Great Awakening. We can't wake up unless we realise how asleep we've been.

And sorry for the incoherence. It was a kind of stream-of-consciousness that could have used a LOT of editing. But I typically use this forum as a kind of notebook, to see if I make any sense, and sometimes the answer is, "Not much".

My 'larger point' that I was trying to put the conversation into was that the Christian Expression over 2,000 years has been arguably lacking, given the fact that at least 3 times during that span the Christian polity (church, Body, whatever) had full access to present its story. So now, people who say that Christians have to get the Message back to the World, I'm like, "What message are we trying to get out?" I mean, look at what we've been saying, collectively, for 18 centuries.

(And the wacko groups and ministers like Nee & Lee have been functioning in that vacuum. I went into the LC from Protestantism because it wasn't working very well for me. So I got seduced.)

And I was trying to reference successful ministries - "Christian leaders" - which impact on the larger conversation, Revived or Awakened or not, like John Piper (and Jonathan Cahn, who received similar discussion some months ago) in that broader picture. Whether they are charlatans or prophets. How to discern from the clamor of voices out there, sounding various trumpets.

But it was all slapdash and I apologize for that.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Nell

You implied. Regardless of your wordsmithing, you implied that I followed John Piper. I don’t. You’re free to accept this or not.

I believe you, Nell, and I accept that you don't follow him. I never implied that you did but you did follow his opinion on Covid; that much was clear. Regardless, the man is a red herring; my primary focus was his spiritual worldview which coincidentally was shared by Watchman Nee and those that influenced him such as Jesse Penn Lewis.

Originally Posted by Nell

2017 flu deaths were, as you said, “in the US”. The ENTIRE WORLD is experiencing Covid-19, hence the word “pandemic”. That’s how come people are saying these things about Covid-19 now. This is why no one said these things in 2017.

You say “So now we are left with judging whether it is (a) God or (b) the spirit of the world acting through the people and influencing their reactions as a whole.” So, lets say you decide on option “(b)”, and what if you’re wrong?

We don’t need to make a judgment. Who has know the mind of the Lord? God could actually use the spirit of the world for his own purposes...he’s done that before. We don’t know what God is doing. Better that we “take heed” and all the other scriptural warnings we’ve been given.

Nell

Nell, speaking of wordsmithing you say things like "we don't know" and "we shouldn't make opinions" but it's pretty clear that you have one...

We know the mind of the Lord as far as He's expressed it in scripture and Christians have the mind of Christ as to understand it. So yes we can know certain things such as any pestilence from Jesus’ death until God’s wrath is not of God.

Regarding your flu comment, flu effects the entire globe every year on a consistent basis. 600,000 deaths on average worldwide are related to flu with no part of the globe left untouched. And keep in mind that number is WITH the availability and use of vaccines. In contrast there are 315,000 from Covid at this time. So again, why the pandemonium? Why isn't the flu a shaking from God every flu season?

As far as implications go, saying that Covid is a shaking from God is implying that He is the direct cause of it and a virus that kills people is implying God's wrath. This idea simply is not supported by scripture. If you disagree, then I'd be happy to know your opinion along with any scripture to support it.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Jo, could you please tell us who you think IS on the right track among Christian teachers?

I can't answer that as far as modern Christian teachers go but I can say that Jesus was given authority by God and the Apostles were given authority by Jesus. We also know that every Christian that has repented and received the Holy Spirit is taught and reminded of God's truth through that indwelling. I believe it's safe to say aiming to have the above preside over your faith is going to be your best bet.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I can't answer that as far as modern Christian teachers go but I can say that Jesus was given authority by God and the Apostles were given authority by Jesus. We also know that every Christian that has repented and received the Holy Spirit is taught and reminded of God's truth through that indwelling. I believe it's safe to say aiming to have the above presided over your faith is going to be your best bet.

Along with the above comments, in order to understand the NT it's helpful to understand how the NT uses the OT. The NT says that: 1) God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him glory; and 2) this is in accordance with the OT (Moses, law, prophets, psalms). (it says a lot else but everything follows this)

I know WL & followers would go along with the above statement but they did an idiosyncratic hermeneutic that was fraught with ignorance and supposition. Any who questioned were expelled from their assembly.

An example of a better approach is "The use of Psalms in the Book of Hebrews" by Guy G. Stroumsa. There are literally dozens of such books out there, by people familiar with the Greek and Hebrew, who've done the hard work and opened up a view of contextual (contemporary) understanding of scripture that I have personally found to be very helpful. And note that Stroumsa et al do so within a larger discussion, as we're having here. They don't say, "I'm the seer of the divine revelation and everyone else has to shut up and get in line".
https://www.amazon.com/Psalms-Hebrew.../dp/0567198847

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I can't answer that as far as modern Christian teachers go but I can say that Jesus was given authority by God and the Apostles were given authority by Jesus. We also know that every Christian that has repented and received the Holy Spirit is taught and reminded of God's truth through that indwelling. I believe it's safe to say aiming to have the above presided over your faith is going to be your best bet.

Why is this not another dodge - you "can't" or you won't? I don't know if it's just me, but I find many of your answers to be quite evasive.

Originally Posted by Jo S

So yes we can know certain things such as any pestilence from Jesus’ death until God’s wrath is not of God.

This is something I wonder about too, that is, if Jesus death atoned for all sin and took our judgment, then there is no wrath of God toward mankind right now (in the age of grace). However, you can still make the argument that God will use this occurrence, and other negative things, to bring some into the light, right?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Why is this not another dodge - you "can't" or you won't? I don't know if it's just me, but I find many of your answers to be quite evasive.

You are asking me to make a general recommendation for a Christian teacher. I can't do that because I have yet to find one that I fully agree with on all doctrine. Christ and the Apostles, however, I can fully recommend without any reservation.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This is something I wonder about too, that is, if Jesus death atoned for all sin and took our judgment, then there is no wrath of God toward mankind right now (in the age of grace). However, you can still make the argument that God will use this occurrence, and other negative things, to bring some into the light.

He's always at work regardless. The danger is when you start to focus on specific occurrences and look at them through a mystical lens things can quickly snowball into unbiblical prophecy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This is something I wonder about too, that is, if Jesus death atoned for all sin and took our judgment, then there is no wrath of God toward mankind right now (in the age of grace).

And I could add, that if Jesus died for all of our sins, and those who receive that forgiveness now compose the house of God, then how can "Judgment begin in the house of God?" (I Peter 4.17)

I'm waiting for our evasive friend to condemn Peter as a heretic.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

You are asking me to make a general recommendation for a Christian teacher. I can't do that because I have yet to find one that I fully agree with on all doctrine.

And I s'pose you never will.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And I could add, that if Jesus died for all of our sins, and those who receive that forgiveness now compose the house of God, then how can "Judgment begin in the house of God?" (I Peter 4.17)

I'm waiting for our evasive friend to condemn Peter as a heretic.

So you're equating God's discipline in a Christian's life for the purpose of purifying their faith to God's wrath on unbelievers for the purpose of destruction to eternal damnation....

Well, if you'd like me to recommend a teacher for a specific subject, such as hermeneutics and exegesis, then that I can do.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And I could add, that if Jesus died for all of our sins, and those who receive that forgiveness now compose the house of God, then how can "Judgment begin in the house of God?" (I Peter 4.17)

Isn't there a difference between the judgement on His house and His wrath? We submit to His governmental judgement now as members of His household (it's really a mercy & according to His good pleasure) and will avoid the wrath to come. Watayathimk?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Well, if you'd like me to recommend a teacher for a specific subject, such as hermeneutics and exegesis, then that I can do.

It seems you are making this way too complicated. You might just say, "I like what so-and-so has to say, perhaps 90% of the time." (for instance, I would probably say that about Charles Stanley)

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson wrote a thought before the Queen's address to the U.K: Mother Nature has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. She gave us time and she gave us warnings. She was so patient with us. She gave us fire and floods, she tried to warn us but in the end she took back control," Ferguson wrote along with a photo of a yard and trees in bloom.

She got no flack for that.. ok..fine.. NOW, replace the words "Mother Nature" with Almighty God has sent us to our rooms.. like the spoilt children we are. He gave us time and He gave us warnings. He was so patient with us. He gave us fire and floods, He tried to warn us but in the end He took back control,...wholeeee mackeral!! Imagine the BACKLASH!!!!

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This is the world system of darkness we find ourselves in, isn't it? Either no one mentions God at all (i.e., Queen - touting man's resilience and pride . . . she does mention "people of all faiths"), or they come out with this Mother Gaia total nonsense.

My comments earlier today were in reference to these kind of remarks, which have no truck with me. My point was that there were 3 separate and distinct epochs in human history when the Christian narrative dominated society, and what of it? So, what if everyone allowed us to lecture them on God? We already got 3 shots at it. Some might not count the RCC Era but what of American Protestant Hegemony Era - so strong that people were aghast when JFK was elected President because he went to the "wrong" church?

We're supposed to be revived to what? Awakened to what?

Some people seem to think that if the world got full access to their gospel, or if their gospel got unfettered access to the world, it would bring a kingdom of peace, joy, and the end of history, or at least a thousand-year interlude. But I listen to their gospel and I look at the Bible and I say, no dice.

I personally wish people would just wake up to the Bible. It talks about Jesus, his compassion, his insights, his power and authority, his mercy, his sense of humour, his purity... even my words fail. But the words are right there.

Instead we talk of "earth's earliest ages" and "the three parts of man" and "the ground of oneness" and wish everyone would accept 'our' gospel and I say, no dice.

What I was trying to say in post #103 was, unless we see how much we're asleep, we can't wake up. If we don't repent we don't get light. We Christians dominated the social conversation (repeatedly) in the past, and fat lot of good it did. So repent.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It seems you are making this way too complicated. You might just say, "I like what so-and-so has to say, perhaps 90% of the time." (for instance, I would probably say that about Charles Stanley)

There were things in the Stroumsa book (he edited it, there were multiple authors) that I disagreed with, some vehemently. But that people were looking at Psalms' reception in Hebrews was soooo eye-opening to me. A new world of discussion was out there, waiting...I just felt like the Holy Spirit leaning over with His arm on my shoulder, saying, "Look, child, read this"

To see the NT with the eyes of its writers. To see them use OT sources as windows to Jesus. Just amazing. Not some "processed God" but the real people writing real books - the NT epistles - using the scripture and their common faith-basis do depict Jesus Christ.

There are a lot of good books out there, like Stroumsa's, that can set your feet on the path. "My sheep hear my voice."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It seems you are making this way too complicated. You might just say, "I like what so-and-so has to say, perhaps 90% of the time." (for instance, I would probably say that about Charles Stanley)

Honestly, StG, I don't listen to Christian teachers enough to make such a recommendation. Unlike yourself, I don't spend much time chasing after them and their opinions. I may pick up a thing here or there but not enough to confidently endorse anyone in general.

This mindset reminds me of what scripture says about the Greeks and how there's always chasing after new philosophies and teachers with itching ears (2 Tim 2:4).

I'm confused as to why my answer isn't sufficient for you. To me that's the most sound Christian advice one can give especially to those that spent so much time relying solely on others to teach them only to have been hurt by their doctrines in the end.

What I can tell you is that a good teacher will show you how to properly approach scripture for the purpose of encouraging you to learn it for yourself rather than for the purpose of imposing own their views onto you.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Instead we talk of "earth's earliest ages" and "the three parts of man" and "the ground of oneness" and wish everyone would accept 'our' gospel and I say, no dice.

What I was trying to say in post #103 was, unless we see how much we're asleep, we can't wake up. If we don't repent we don't get light. We Christians dominated the social conversation (repeatedly) in the past, and fat lot of good it did. So repent.

We talk of those things among believers, but I don't think we do that so much with those who have no light. But I get your point. Many times Christians squander the conversation by trying to lay down things like moral/political restrictions, which saves exactly no one, and in which there's no power of the good news! So to unbelievers it just looks like someone else spouting off things they prefer, without any apparent basis for those things (at least that they can see).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Honestly, StG, I don't listen to Christian teachers enough to make such a recommendation. Unlike yourself, I don't spend much time chasing after them and their opinions. I may pick up a thing here or there but not enough to confidently endorse anyone in general.

This mindset reminds me of what scripture says about the Greeks and how there's always chasing after new philosophies and teachers with itching ears (2 Tim 2:4).

I'm confused as to why my answer isn't sufficient for you. To me that's the most sound Christian advice one can give especially to those that spent so much time relying solely on others to teach them only to have been hurt by their doctrines in the end.

A good teacher will simply show you how to properly approach scripture for the purpose of encouraging you to learn it yourself rather than to impose their views onto you.

Okay. I'm not just inquiring about people on media (TV, radio, etc.) but also in person or in print. But if that question frustrates you, then we can leave it . . .

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay. I'm not just inquiring about people on media (TV, radio, etc.) but also in person or in print. But if that question frustrates you, then we can leave it . . .

No worries, StG.

Your questions don't frustrate me. Although it would be nice if you were more inquisitive and sincere with your questions in the future rather than looking for ways to make unfounded allegations through them. I imagine all will be well then.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

No worries, StG.

Your questions don't frustrate me. Although it would be nice if you were more inquisitive and sincere with your questions in the future rather than looking for ways to make unfounded allegations through them. I imagine all will be well then.

What can I say - maybe we just communicate past each other . . . What I mean by that is I largely think the same of the way you often respond - with "unfounded allegations"!

But I've seen something vaguely similar when communicating with other folks, for instance my wife. When she doesn't understand what I'm after, I may then repeat it to her a little louder a couple times. Her response frequently is, "Just repeating what you said louder & louder doesn't make it more understandable!" So, maybe it's just me . . .

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What can I say - maybe we just communicate past each other . . . What I mean by that is I largely think the same of the way you often respond - with "unfounded allegations"!

But I've seen something vaguely similar when communicating with other folks, for instance my wife. When she doesn't understand what I'm after, I may then repeat it to her a little louder a couple times. Her response frequently is, "Just repeating what you said louder & louder doesn't make it more understandable!" So, maybe it's just me . . .

Not buying it, StG. The reason is the things you are now alleging are things I've recently called you out on. What that's telling me is you're projecting.

No worries though. If you have any personal grievances to air you can always PM me.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Not buying it, StG. The reason is the things you are now alleging are things I've recently called you out on. What that's telling me is you're projecting.

Man, you don't "buy" nothing! Communication does take two, and I thought I was doing a pretty good job of accepting at least most of the responsibility for our ineffective communication. But then you came back to zing me again. And I'm not buying your response either, so there! (seriously, my impeccable opinion is you certainly dodged first! )

It'd be interesting to run a profile on your traits to see where they'd place on the trusting/skepticism scale. The amiable/confrontational scale would be interesting too . . . (FYI - any strength taken too far is a weakness)

So I'll hoist the white flag - you win.

Let's get back on topic.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Let's get back on topic.

The topic was not just awakening but Great Awakening. Who was greatly awake but Jesus? Or, if not Jesus, who?

Then, what would it look like, just for a moment, to see the world through Jesus' eyes? Peter did. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but the Father in heaven."

Peter saw him, John saw him. They saw through his eyes. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Jesus was the light. He was the True Light. He could see the Father. "I always see my Father before me" John 5:19

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." John 8:29

I mean, what else is there, really? What does one want to see? What else is it, to be awake? There is nothing else. Through him we see the Father. There is nothing else.

[Curious]

Hi I decided to enter this debate on weather this is a judgement of God or not. I find this preposition very black and white. Rather than discussing the views of John Piper, John McArthur, John Rameraz, or any other ‘John’ in the Christian world with an opinion to offer, I’m going to look at the testimony of history and the lessons of the bible, to think this issue through.

I’m going to start with king Nebuchadnezzer, just ‘cause I’ve been reading that recently. Did God punish him by driving him out to live like an animal for 7 years? Or was that necessary for him to achieve a full salvation of his own so that he would put God on the throne of his life properly and become a godly king, and go on to eternity in heaven? Certainly, old Nebbie had come to the place of respecting God, giving Him some honour and regard before his big ordeal happened, through Daniel’s interpretation of his dream, and the fiery furnace faced by the three. But his own giant ego needed to be brought down. It had to happen for Nebbie’s sake, not God’s. You can say it was the judgement of God that he had to suffer 7 years of insanity, but it was equally God’s grace to bring Nebbie to the place where he could receive the fullness of God’s blessings for him and though his kingly powers, to others. He was already on that journey but had reached the sticking point because of his greatness in power, reflected in his last observation before insanity overtook him. To me, God’s judgement IS ALSO His blessing, they are one in the same.

Now let’s look historically at the bubonic plague….if anyone wants to endure with me here further. At the time the plague arrived in Europe, Christianity had gotten stuck much like the current state of the LC today. It’s wording (terminology) and reference point were biblical but the interpretations of those ideas had reverted to paganism, through the exclusivity and domination of the Catholic Church. Examples of this: A pantheon of ‘saints’ (deities) and indulgence certificates (replacing seeking to live a godly and sincere life), submission to the priests (instead of living by faith that the bible instructs), Pope sitting in the place that Christ alone is qualified to, to name a few major aspects.

What was the result of that plague? First, it is considered today that about 1/3 of the population of Europe, from Greece to Iceland, was killed in the first sweep alone. The virus travelled from the Crimea straight to Greece on a boat and took off from there. It did not find its way to Russia or the Middle East or China. Though its origin was physically closer to those areas. Why did it hit the area of the world that had Christianity, albeit in a form that had been corrupted from its truth? Why not let God’s wrath fall on the pagan world? Well the ‘Catholic world’ was stuck much the same as Nebbie was, pride, power and control in the whole system had sabotaged God’s ability to work in and through the people of Europe, and they could not fulfil any purpose God could have for them to bring the gospel to the rest of the world, as it had been so corrupted.

To cut a long story short, the bubonic plague hit at a time referred to as the ‘dark ages’, in a closed system that had no way to grow or adapt, or teach or practice Christianity. True Christianity had been well and truly drowned in heresy. After the plague several important things happened, in my opinion as flow-on effects all begun by the cataclysmic changes and consequences that came from the effects of that plague. It set in motion changes in the social structure directly related to the shrinking of the population, especially of ‘Villeins’ (aka the peasant class, source of the word villain, and indicative of the attitude of judgement towards peasants), that brought about, over time; the Reformation of the church; the signing of the Magna Cater; the emergence of the rule-of-law (in early form known as ‘the King’s Peace’ and developing till the same concept became the ‘Constitution’ which forms the legal backbone in this magnificent nation!); the development of scientific exploration, amongst other accumulation of knowledge; the industrial revolution; the modern age. (Granted, that is a simplification, but if I had more room to pad this out, I could defend that conclusion more, I’m trying to be brief!).

Was that God’s judgement? or God doing what was necessary to forge the way to blessing? Are they two different things, or one in the same? Was there any point to destroy areas of the world that were lost in darkness (Asia, Middle East) or was it in God’s plan to create a way for the societies of Europe, through Protestant Christianity, to raise up enough avenue of truth that missionaries could go from these places and bring that message to the dark areas of the world? As well, to set up new societies using principles of the bible to create a higher level of justice, charity, freedom and security for their people, as Balaam had observed in the Israelites, just after their trials and before they settled in their own land?

I believe God’s eyes are always on the prize and the good that can come from adversity. That happens in our own personal lives, and also on a grand scale at times too. The Pharaoh of Moses’ time would not listen to God regardless of the pressures that came to bear through Moses’ warnings. Nebbie did respond in humility to God. That has to do with the heart of the individual responding to the adversity, either increasing their resistance against, or bowing to, the Holy One. The rest are side issues.

That is my opinion on the covid19 pandemic (plague) and God’s potential purposes in it. We each decide if it is His judgement or His blessing to us, the ball is in our court, individually as well as collectively. And even for those of us who love our Lord, don’t we all need discipline, (consequences) to buck up our ideas from time to time? I definitely do!

[Curious]

Now I’m going to relate this all back to some principles relevant to the LC.

The result of the series of developments, initiated (by the destruction of the past system that dark ages Europe existed under) and undertaken through the vehicle of the bubonic plague, giving rise to the list of things that created a society where persons have human rights, the principle of the rule of law etc, imperfect but desirable above any other human system that has emerged in the world. (Except if you are a tyrannical despot yourself and don’t like the restrictions of a free world).

I believe it is because of that heritage that the mind of the Western person is less susceptible to the tyrannical and despotic rulership of the LC system. Hence more Chinese membership, and which in turn has produced the exposure and downfall of the LC in the U.S. Something fated to happen, I believe. It’s in the blueprint of the western mentality and enshrined in our laws, that we have the right to choose based on our own conscience and individuality, and that even those in authority over us are accountable according to the law-of-the-land which in principle, favours no-one but seeks to identify and uphold the truth. Just like the book of Proverbs instructs.

Key to the whole system of a fair and equitable society is…………accountability in those who hold power…..!!!! The very thing the LC avoids.

The rule-of-law pivots around accountability. It puts everyone into subjection to the laws of the land. If my memory serves me correctly, it was the English King and Queen in Tudor times, that voluntarily subjected themselves to the law of the land. (That’s like the BB’s making themselves accountable and transparent)! It was then that system specifically that was bequeathed to all the historical states of the British Empire and forms the basis on which the legal systems of many Nations in the world function today. Its huge and foundational to our freedoms, peace and stability and all the other features of a healthy (Godly) society I mentioned in the above post.

To give example lets look at Prince Andrew and his foolish association with Jeremy Epstein. He will face the music for what he has participated in. Because he has it seems, in all probability, broken the law of the land, and will be brought down for it like any other law-breaker. The British public has the right to demand an accounting from him, and they will. Yet by contrast, he hasn’t killed anyone. Putin kills and has killed, whomever he chooses, (and set up a system that entrenches his reign and freedom from accountability for the long haul). As does Kim Jong-un, and the Prince of Saudi Arabia, they are murderers with impunity in their own nations too. (Look at the journalist Khashoggi, the ‘dissenter and opposer’ in Saudi Arabia that was eliminated most likely by the Prince). No-one from within their respective nations is able to hold them accountable, they are above the law……..except…..the Western news media exposes them and they can't silence the voice of the free world!!!!

The true story delivered by the Netfix mini-series ‘When will they see us’ of 5 innocent young Afro-American youth jailed and convicted wrongly ….it is not a negative miracle what happened to them. That is the corruption of human nature, mainly the Police in this case, the wielders of power and the law. The miracle is that there is a system that took it upon itself to venerate them in the long run, that could backtrack (lose face!) on their judgement and endure that exposure of their own imperfection, that could admit it made a mistake and provide justice retrospectively in the interests of providing dignity and justice for its victims. The system was there for the right people to utilise to bring that justice. That is the miracle, that good happened at all.

Thereby, this discussion goes full circle lands us right back at the misuse of authority in the LC system. Without the bubonic plague, we would not have the rule-of-law or a ‘justice system’. (my opinion). We would have no defence against the injustices of any system like the LC which seeks to dominate and rule over us. Nor would we have the understanding imbedded in our psyche that we can identify this abuse rather than venerate and worship those abusers. Additionally, our system of law limits, through legislation, the rights these groups have over their members, forcing them to rely only on superstition (emotionally based fears) to contain their membership.

Who knows what are the long term developments from this virus? We don’t know, but God does. We just need to try to be a peace within His will. And stay as safe as possible!! All things work for the good for those who love God!! (Romans 8:28 or somewhere thereabouts!!)

don't you just hate the days I have adequate time on my hands!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

Who knows what are the long term developments from this virus? We don’t know, but God does. We just need to try to be a peace within His will. And stay as safe as possible!! All things work for the good for those who love God!!

I think Joseph is appropriate here. He told his brothers, "What you meant for harm, God has turned to good." We are not smart enough to extrapolate future developments (I'm not anyway), but Jesus told us, "Sufficient is the day's challenges. Tomorrow will take care of itself".

Joseph, in that moment, realized how God's sovereign had was behind his evil brothers' plot. They had indeed intended him harm (he was clear-eyed and honest enough to call a spade a spade) but God's beneficence came in and transformed the event.

That we had such eyes as Joseph! That's what I meant where I said that Peter saw through the eyes of Christ. "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God!" What a revelation. To see Jesus as he saw himself. To see him transform the human race. "You are the Saviour of the world!"

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

This is why I say that the entire NT is essentially an extended treatise on the OT, proving why the Jesus they knew was the prophesied Messiah/Christ. They were witnesses (Gk martyros) of Jesus, and they remembered scripture (our OT) that was written.

What happened centuries later was that Jesus' Christ-hood was taken for granted, and thus the incessant OT references were marginalized, and new meanings then imposed on the NT text. And then when merchandizers like Lee came along (notice that he was both Seer, Book Author, and Book Publisher) and they went into the OT for "type and figure" they supported their imaginary "Christ" with what was often extranea, and missed the man Jesus that Peter and John (and others) knew.

When you see this Jesus everything changes, I warrant.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Curious

Who knows what are the long term developments from this virus? We don’t know, but God does. We just need to try to be a peace within His will. And stay as safe as possible!! All things work for the good for those who love God!! (Romans 8:28 or somewhere thereabouts!!)

The long-term developments . . . yes, I wonder about that too. As was the idea I am attempting to bring out on the "Coronavirus Powergrab?" thread, it does seem like the current situation is a softening-up for implementing a strong, central and worldwide governmental. We may not be smart enough to know exactly how and when it all plays out, but as Jesus said, I think we can recognize the seasons.

BTW - Romans 8:28 says "We know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God . . ." (NASB)

[aron]

Let me restate my premise (cf #s 103,107): assuming the whole world gave you(us) unfettered access to present your(our) gospel, what assurance do you(we) have that it would go any better than the previous times the world was wide open to the Christian message?

I find too often a variation of, "They won't listen to our gospel message" that I quoted in #118, and I'm noting here that when everyone was listening it still didn't go so well. Which indicates two things. First is that things perhaps deteriorated more quickly and severely than most realize. It wasn't just, "they adopted a clergy-laity system" or "Constantine the Great married the Church to the world". No, those were symptoms, the problem was earlier, more severe, deeper. It wasn't just, "The Bad Old RCC, Evil Harlot Babylon" We really need to look intently. Don't take anything for granted. The LC version of Church History was so superficial as to be a Kipling-esque "Just So Story"

Jesus rose from the dead, to glory - this we believe. Everything else, test it. Prove all things. WL teaching that if we just gathered on the "local ground" all problems would be solved in our "glorious church life" was either a delusion or a scam, or some combination of both.

Second and related, is that the problem (and its solution), doesn't rest on "them" but on "us" or more specifically on "me". If you make the whole world sit down quietly, and tell them to listen up, and give me the mike, I could only say, "I repent". That's why I pointed out that Jesus wouldn't let others call him "good", and that he told his disciples, "If you, being evil..." If we want a Great Awakening it starts with a personal awakening. And a personal awakening starts when you realise you've been lulled into sleep. Look at Jesus arguing with the Pharisees in John 8 and 9. He said, "Because you insist that you see, your blindness remains". Too many Christians, who claim to be "close followers" (a la WL & LSM), yet they still don't think this verse applies to them. It's always the other guy.

[Sons to Glory!]

But don't you think that people's hearts are softened by tribulation? If things are cruising along all hunky-dory, then people don't see much reason to turn away from whatever their normal life looks like and turn to God. Their hearts are occupied with whatever and they are not very open to even hear the gospel. This current corona virus situation exposes how much a total reliance on the flesh and material world is folly. Even having the best humans have come up with - the American Dream - will not save us from being ravaged by the virus. So it's a mercy to experience tribulation and be shaken, right? Otherwise, we will pretty much just slumber all the way to death!

Once people see how frail this life is, then they get desperate and call on the One who "will be our guide, even unto death." (Psalm 48:14 - this may be on my tombstone, if I happen to have one)