Meeting with a Coworker

Hi I've recently joined and left a local church
I am meeting with a brother tomorrow who wishes me to return
Any advice?

[aron]

Originally Posted by anna

Hi I've recently joined and left a local church
I am meeting with a brother tomorrow who wishes me to return
Any advice?

Ask him why Nee & Lee taught that the church should not found universities & hopitals but Lee used the church members' savings to initiate his son Timothy and his motor coach company, the Daystar Corporation?

When the company went belly-up they told them to consider their investment as a donation. Those who insisted evidently got reimbursed, but many lost a decent amount.

How come the Baptists & Methodists got criticised for their universities & hospitals, but the LSM/lc could start a for-profit motor home company?

[aron]

Also, ask him why Dora Yu could school Watchman Nee in the inner life practices, but no woman can school any LSM/lc member in anything today? What has changed in the last 90 years?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Ask him why Nee & Lee taught that the church should not found universities & hopitals but Lee used the church members' savings to initiate his son Timothy and his motor coach company, the Daystar Corporation?

When the company went belly-up they told them to consider their investment as a donation. Those who insisted evidently got reimbursed, but many lost a decent amount.

How come the Baptists & Methodists got criticised for their universities & hospitals, but the LSM/lc could start a for-profit motor home company?

Don't forget the FTTA which is their version of a seminary or bible college.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by anna

Hi I've recently joined and left a local church
I am meeting with a brother tomorrow who wishes me to return
Any advice?

I guess it depends on your situation, and the coworker. It may be nice to share the Gospel with them and talk about who Jesus is in your life - no script, no memorized religious babble.

It would be interesting to understand how they can have a church that is centered on the works of Witness Lee and the publishing arm of LSM. What happens when a local church no longer follows the LSM directive (see threads on the quarantines in various areas), what happens when a member no longer wants to follow the LSM directive (see multiple personal experiences on threads here). What is one thing that Witness Lee taught that this particular "coworker" doesn't agree with? If it is a local church, why must everything point back to Witness Lee and the LSM? Is it possible that Witness Lee isn't who he said he was? If so, what are the implications of that?

Honestly, your time would be better spent praying for the brothers/sisters that you met during your time there.

It probably depends on which locality you are in...that seems to dictate the level to which the coworker has dug his head into the sand.

[HERn]

If he asks for the names of people you have been talking to or who have been critical of LSM/LC/HWFMR be careful. He's trying to identify and the isolate the source of your "infection" or "poisoning". It is my feeling that a Coworker/elder will defend LSM/WL to the point of encouraging spouses to separate, parents to restrict access to grand kids, and saints from meeting together. I was in a locality where the elders asked some stay at home moms to stop their lunch meetings for talk and fellowship. I'm sure they had a good reason because spiritual sisters can be dangerous.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by anna

Hi I've recently joined and left a local church
I am meeting with a brother tomorrow who wishes me to return
Any advice?

Don't forget to ask the Holy Spirit to counsel you and guide you in your discussion. Ask Jesus to cover and protect you with His Precious Blood. Remember your alliance is to GOD. He is the One Who saved you. Trust HIM. He wants you to depend on HIM.

Focus on Jesus.

[aron]

And why don't they translate 'ekklesia' as 'church' in Acts 17:41? Why change meanings of words for theological convenience?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

And why don't they translate 'ekklesia' as 'church' in Acts 17:41? Why change meanings of words for theological convenience?

If you ask them such questions, they'll usually say, "All Bibles do this." In other words, if the KJV translated 'ekklesia' in Psalm 22:22 as 'congregation', and the same phrase quoted in the NT in Heb 2:12 the word is translated 'church', so can we. Why pick on us?

I pick on them because the church that seemingly does everything by the book suddenly does something by human convenience and convention, hoping you wouldn't notice.

Once I asked an LSM/lc brother - Why should we register with the government as a 501(c)3 non-profit? He said, "We have to". Really? What Bible verse says you have to register with the government? I must have missed that one. Was that from a lost epistle?

Or, "Well, everybody does it." Suddenly convention is the watchword. The ministry that condemns everyone else for "traditions" suddenly follows tradition, even cites tradition as a seeming bona fide.

The only reason they translate 'ekklesia' as 'church' in some places, and as 'congregation' and 'assembly' in others, is to prop up their one-church-per-city dogma. They've invented a theology, a 'truth', then must read it back on the text, and where the text can't match the dogma they'll modify (or re-translate) the text. Because, "Everybody does it."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by anna

Hi I've recently joined and left a local church
I am meeting with a brother tomorrow who wishes me to return
Any advice?

Anna,

Have a frank conversation and follow the Lord according to what He has shown you.

Drake

[HERn]

How did the meeting go?

The meeting.
We discussed the bible and my preference for the kjv as opposed to the recovery version
The co worker agreed the kjv was better
He wanted me to return so I could make a stand in the meetings on more bilical teaching
He said I was a prophetess
I asked him who was in charge
He said the Holy Spirit
I pressed him on this and admitted a couple were in charge who recieved a salary
I challenged him on shepherding.
I challenged him on biblical responsibility regarding sin within the church
He did not want me to share what we had discussed
He said he had challenged leaders and got no answes
I asked him why hymns had been changed
He said print out hymn and we will sing it
He wont leave the local church because he will miss the fellowship
He said he was an apostle
The meeting finished after 2.5 hours
He keeps sending texts asking to meet up and pray
I feel very sad for him and others

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by anna

The meeting.
We discussed the bible and my preference for the kjv as opposed to the recovery version
The co worker agreed the kjv was better
He wanted me to return so I could make a stand in the meetings on more bilical teaching
He said I was a prophetess
I asked him who was in charge
He said the Holy Spirit
I pressed him on this and admitted a couple were in charge who recieved a salary
I challenged him on shepherding.
I challenged him on biblical responsibility regarding sin within the church
He did not want me to share what we had discussed
He said he had challenged leaders and got no answes
I asked him why hymns had been changed
He said print out hymn and we will sing it
He wont leave the local church because he will miss the fellowship
He said he was an apostle
The meeting finished after 2.5 hours
He keeps sending texts asking to meet up and pray
I feel very sad for him and others

It may not be appropriate to share, if so, please disregard... but who would be considered “a couple” who were in charge?

Why didn’t he want your discussion shared?

[Drake]

-2

Sister anna,

I would not meet one on one... but always with another present or a couple. Where are the elders?

Something is not right about this..... that is my sense.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

It may not be appropriate to share, if so, please disregard... but who would be considered “a couple” who were in charge?

Why didn’t he want your discussion shared?

LofT,

I agree. The circumstances and the responses are unusual and odd. I am wondering whether this local church is even part of the Lord's Recovery.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

I agree. The circumstances and the responses are unusual and odd. I am wondering whether this local church is even part of the Lord's Recovery.

Drake

Drake, after 40 years in the program, you have no idea how bad this statement is. It is the very definition of a divisive sect in the body of Christ. It creates walls of who is in and who is out. It sounds "unusual and odd" to you because it doesn't sound like LSM, the official ministry of every LC, and their official headquarters in Anaheim.

Whether or not the Lord ever had a work called "recovery" is one thing, but once you capitalize "Lord's Recovery," it is no longer the Lord's anything. It is a mere movement of men (Romans 16.17-19), men who love their special place (3 John 9), and men who draw the believers after themselves (Acts 20.30).

[least]

Originally Posted by Drake

-2

Sister anna,

I would not meet one on one... but always with another present or a couple. Where are the elders?

Something is not right about this..... that is my sense.

Drake

Good advice.
"I would not meet one on one... but always with another present or a couple. Where are the elders? " - two or three witnesses.

Sounds to me he is not a lsm/lc blended person. Strange that he is a 'co-worker'.

[least]

I just realised that anna did not call this brother 'co-worker'.
How big is this congregation? Do they use the recovery version bible? Do they use lsm messages?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by least

I just realised that anna did not call this brother 'co-worker'.
How big is this congregation? Do they use the recovery version bible? Do they use lsm messages?

She used the term co worker and coworker.

She also mentioned using the recovery version bible. The footnotes in the recovery version are a joke... how many churches outside the the LSM approved churches would use that version?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

She used the term co worker and coworker.

She also mentioned using the recovery version bible. The footnotes in the recovery version are a joke... how many churches outside the the LSM approved churches would use that version?

There are individuals who attend denominations who use the Recovery version. It is much better than the KJV because it has footnotes. As a translation it is very good as well. Much better than the watered down message bible etc etc. People in denominations use it because their pastors/priests are not teaching the bible and explaining what it says/means. I know denominational people that use it for their bible studies, one is a missionary to Africa. They are able to answer every question that people who don't have one cannot answer. They quickly become the bible study leader.

[least]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

... the Recovery version. It is much better than the KJV because it has footnotes. As a translation it is very good as well. Much better than the watered down message bible etc etc. .

A 'genuine' lsm/lc coworker will answer as above, lol.

I'm worried in case it is one of those 'eastern lightning' / 'almighty god' type scam.
They are not ashamed to associate with the LSM MOTA too ...

[Drake]

-1>”I'm worried in case it is one of those 'eastern lightning' / 'almighty god' type scam. ”

Alarms are going off for me too, least. If that is the case, here is a sister in need, real need. She needs our prayers and in this thread every believer should become a shepherd to Anna, and use discernment to read that situation. It may also be that the “coworker” is misrepresenting things for some ulterior motive. That is why I advise the sister not to meet one on one with him and to include others that she is safe with if she decides to pursue further discussions.

Drake

[UntoHim]

I'm quite sure this fellowship is not with anyone associated with the Eastern Lightning/Almighty god people. I think our friend anna is dealing with a genuine LSM related Local Church, but she may have a slight issue with expressing this in English. Let's give her a chance to set us straight on her progress in this situation.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Have a frank conversation and follow the Lord according to what He has shown you.

The ability to have conversations in the LSM/lc is somewhat circumscribed - in order to have a conversation, both parties have to be able to learn something from it, not just one of them. Witness Lee told us that he hadn't learned anything from anyone in over 40 years. Likewise, LSM/lc folk typically will learn from you only if you tell them what you've "enjoyed" from the ministry, and demonstrate abject servility and fealty. Other than that, they don't have a heart, as they say; no interest or appetite for "other" ministries or revelations, except from God's so-called oracle.

Be that as it may, in my frank conversation I'd ask this: why does the "interpreted word" get passed off as revelatory of Christ, when the actual scripture is being termed "fallen", "low", "natural concepts" and so forth? How do we know that the scripture isn't being composed according to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and revealing Christ, and the interpreted word isn't actually "fallen human concepts"?

Similarly, how do we know that when the Maximum Brother chides the flock for being "natural" and "soulish" that the MB isn't also being the same? What assurance do we have, except from the MB himself, that his ministry isn't tainted with the same fallen tendencies that he presumes to view in everyone else, including the writers of scripture?

One would think someone might want to ask such a question, if they weren't intimidated into silence. Or completely brain-dead, or befuddled, or bewitched.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There are individuals who attend denominations who use the Recovery version. It is much better than the KJV because it has footnotes.

Actually, it is of dubious value because of the nature and slant of its footnotes. Better to not have footnotes than to have those chosen, edited, or written by Lee.

Yes it is a local church I have been going to, there were around 25-30 members a lot were Asian

They kept going on about getting local people to join but all efforts were focused on recruiting at 2 campuses. I feel so sad for the people involved as they really are serious about loving the Lord. Unfortunately no-one seems to be using discernment but blindly following seemingly mature Christians.

From the meeting I had (there were 2 brothers the 'evangelist/apostle' is Korean and has been a member for 19 years the other brother was from Fiji and has been a member for 3 years) I was quite disturbed as the older brother knew what was wrong in the group but felt that the answer was to love and not judge but I felt that was a get out clause for him. People are being misled and I feel so sad, especially for the young folks.

He keeps sending scriptures via text and then adding a prayer that seems a bit manipulative emotionally
I am so sad that this is going on

[HERn]

I am sorry for your grief, but it seems to me that in order to move on you need to cut the ties and associate with healthier Christians. I have never heard of an LSM lc brother refer to himself as an apostle, that was reserved for WL; although some of the GLC might of respected Titus Chu as an apostle. I don't believe there is anyone on the level of Paul; even Luther nor his followers consider him an apostle on the level of Paul. It's only the heretics that believe they have an apostle on the level of Paul that can open and reveal the intrinsic meaning of scripture.

[least]

Good to hear from you anna. The Lord is the shepherd.

Originally Posted by anna

Unfortunately no-one seems to be using discernment but blindly following seemingly mature Christians.

Trained and trained and trained. Conditioned. Lost discernment.
Seemingly mature = well versed in LSM/lc teachings and ways.

Originally Posted by anna

From the meeting I had (there were 2 brothers the 'evangelist/apostle' is Korean and has been a member for 19 years the other brother was from Fiji and has been a member for 3 years) I was quite disturbed as the older brother knew what was wrong in the group but felt that the answer was to love and not judge but I felt that was a get out clause for him. People are being misled and I feel so sad, especially for the young folks.

Good that there was one more person present. The older ... I say gives me impression of 'old fox', double hypocrite. Is he the one salaried?

Originally Posted by anna

He keeps sending scriptures via text and then adding a prayer that seems a bit manipulative emotionally
I am so sad that this is going on

Block him from text/email etc., Really not healthy.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by anna

They kept going on about getting local people to join but all efforts were focused on recruiting at 2 campuses.

I like that phrase: "local people". Are there people who are not local? The college students? What is the opposite of a local person? A transient?

What a strange group. The only people who exist are local persons. Only God is omnipresent. The rest of us are local.

Strange terminology, fronting strange thinking and behaviours.

Originally Posted by anna

there were 2 brothers the 'evangelist/apostle' is Korean and has been a member for 19 years the other brother was from Fiji and has been a member for 3 years

Are these brothers local? One is from Fiji and one from Korea. They're trying to vacuum up college naifs, easily swayed and barely more than children, and eventually send them somewhere remote to serve the LSM. It's a strange hodge-podge of subjectivism, mercantilism and imperialism. "We have the truth - the true path to God - submit to our Processed God - we have the Way bottled and ready to serve, just for $5.98 this month only - step right up, folks!"

God sent His Son. God loved us. Come without money and without price. The Way has been opened wide. The doorway of salvation will receive all who receive Him. There is no Special Church and Ministry which stands between the Lord and His sheep.

I am so happy that I have seen that Jesus is the Lord of all. I am also happy that my brain is not crushed underneath one of these supposed mediatory parties, trying to copyright the truth. The truth is free. Come without money and price.

[Evangelical]

Doesn't sound like a local church, or the elder in question is not absolute for the ministry in which case it is a local church specific problem.

This is why it's important to have authority in the church, this is why there is a need for leading brothers in the church and one ministry. If everyone does their own thing it will be a chaos.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Doesn't sound like a local church, or the elder in question is not absolute for the ministry in which case it is a local church specific problem.

This is why it's important to have authority in the church, this is why there is a need for leading brothers in the church and one ministry. If everyone does their own thing it will be a chaos.

Whose ministry?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Doesn't sound like a local church, or the elder in question is not absolute for the ministry in which case it is a local church specific problem.

This is why it's important to have authority in the church, this is why there is a need for leading brothers in the church and one ministry. If everyone does their own thing it will be a chaos.

Do you have any idea how pathetic this is? Talk about being "of Lee!"

That's exactly what it is to be "absolute for the ministry" of Witness Lee. So divisive!

What a LC really needs is elders who serve the Lord and minister to the saints. These elders must pick and choose whether any outside ministry can benefit their people.

This is exactly what W. Nee taught in TNCCL, because that is the Biblical pattern.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If everyone does their own thing it will be a chaos.

That's what the RCC told Luther and the COE told Wesley. "You're overturning the established order."

Of course Catholic and Angican leaders were arguably "doing their own thing" as well, so Luther and Wesley didn't listen.

Here's a more immediate application. LSM/lc headquarters tells us that the scripture has vain, fallen, natural concepts: the psalmist writes that he will obey & please God, but WL in the footnote says that he's mistaken, and that none can obey. But the clear pattern of NT reception of the psalms says that Jesus Christ obeyed the Father, and was given glory.

"I come to do your will, oh God; behold: in the scroll of the book it is written concerning Me". Jesus said, "David was in spirit, writing about Me", and nowhere do I see any commensurate warning off of the psalmist's oeuvre. So it seems NT writers mined the whole corpus as such, as the revelatory, life-supplying "word that proceeds out of the mouth of God", and that WL went rogue here, and did his own exegetical thing.

Now, who do I follow in such cases; the clear pattern (to me) of scriptural reception, or Headquarters?

The LSM/lc has always promoted a reflexive, unthinking, "blind obedience" to the dictates of church leadership. But if that were to be the case, there wouldn't have been any Reformation, would there?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's a more immediate application. LSM/lc headquarters tells us that the scripture has vain, fallen, natural concepts: the psalmist writes that he will obey & please God, but WL in the footnote says that he's mistaken, and that none can obey. But the clear pattern of NT reception of the psalms says that Jesus Christ obeyed the Father, and was given glory.

"I come to do your will, oh God; behold: in the scroll of the book it is written concerning Me". Jesus said,

Now, who do I follow in such cases; the clear pattern (to me) of scriptural reception, or Headquarters?

The LSM/lc has always promoted a reflexive, unthinking, "blind obedience" to the dictates of church leadership. But if that were to be the case, there wouldn't have been any Reformation, would there?

I really tried to stay out of this thread... but I was led to post some thoughts.

I echo everything you wrote Aron.

I want to add..
In 1975 when I got saved, Lee was teaching the LC to follow the Spirit. What happened to that teaching?

We learned from the scriptures CHRIST is in us, and through His Spirit, we are able to crucify the flesh. And thus we are obey HIM, His leading. I know this is everyone's experience, but I will share mine: I got saved, born again because the Holy Spirit (not Lee or the LC) led me to JESUS. Thus I OBEYED the Holy Spirit's leading. How 'bout that?? Being led to Jesus by the Holy Spirit before I got saved, born again... and not knowing anything about Lee or his teachings. (Yes. an LC brother led me to CHRIST and to the lc but back then, we were all about CHRIST and the Life Giving Spirit. I did not hear about Lee until 4 months after I was in the LC.

Oh how times have changed!


I truly believe the only way we can obey is through our 'eating and drinking' Jesus. And even then we stumble and fall flat on our face.

I will tell you the Holy Spirit, (not the spirit of Lee or religion) convicts me and when He does, I immediately repent and wash myself clean in the Powerful and Precious Blood of the Lamb of God.

One more thing. I am really beginning to think Evangelical is getting a charge of yanking and pulling our chains. He likes to see people's feathers all ruffled up. He likes people to get in a puff'. So he comes up with these absurd and silly comments. I don't believe he even believes half the stuff he writes.

And if he does, he certainly does not have the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and Father God leading him. Evangelical has the spirit of Witness Lee leading him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

We learned from the scriptures CHRIST is in us, and through His Spirit, we are able to crucify the flesh. And thus we are obey HIM, His leading. I know this is everyone's experience, but I will share mine: I got saved, born again because the Holy Spirit (not Lee or the LC) led me to JESUS. Thus I OBEYED the Holy Spirit's leading. How 'bout that?? Being led to Jesus by the Holy Spirit before I got saved, born again... and not knowing anything about Lee or his teachings. (Yes. an LC brother led me to CHRIST and to the lc but back then, we were all about CHRIST and the Life Giving Spirit. I did not hear about Lee until 4 months after I was in the LC.

Oh how times have changed!

CMW, I completely agree.

Back in those days in the LC's, Christ was everything -- "Christ, only Christ!" was our daily slogan.

Then the Young Galilean / Max Rapoport Storm of 1977 swept thru the country.

Lee used the fallout from that horrible commotion in the LC's to convince all the LC's how much we desperately needed him to protect us from the likes of people like Max.

Problem with this scenario is that it was Lee himself that used Max to go out and shake up all the LC's and undermine the local elderships and regional ministers.

Get the picture? Does everybody understand how this works?

In the military they call this a "False Flag" strategic operation. Look it up. That's what Lee did. He started a war so that in the end he could consolidate more power. After things calmed down, Lee looked like a hero while guys like Max Rapoport got the firing squad for committing treason.

Very convenient! Eh?

[least]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

One more thing. I am really beginning to think Evangelical is getting a charge of yanking and pulling our chains. He likes to see people's feathers all ruffled up. He likes people to get in a puff'. So he comes up with these absurd and silly comments. I don't believe he even believes half the stuff he writes.

And if he does, he certainly does not have the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and Father God leading him. Evangelical has the spirit of Witness Lee leading him.

wow. you nailed it.
I tried to understand this 'Evangelical phenomenon' and the best I came up with was: that he is bored, could not behave/speak freely in his blending meetings and so he comes here to spin for entertainment, for himself and others here.
Have fun bro. E. Don't be offended ...
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by least

wow. you nailed it.
I tried to understand this 'Evangelical phenomenon' and the best I came up with was: that he is bored, could not behave/speak freely in his blending meetings and so he comes here to spin for entertainment, for himself and others here.
Have fun bro. E. Don't be offended ...
-

Google the word "troll". There are several out there and none of them good.

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by least

wow. you nailed it.
I tried to understand this 'Evangelical phenomenon' and the best I came up with was: that he is bored, could not behave/speak freely in his blending meetings and so he comes here to spin for entertainment, for himself and others here.
Have fun bro. E. Don't be offended ...
-

Possibly you have me confused with Awareness. If I want entertainment I go to the Alternative Views section. If Awareness wants entertainment he comes here.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I really tried to stay out of this thread... but I was led to post some thoughts.

I echo everything you wrote Aron.

I want to add..
In 1975 when I got saved, Lee was teaching the LC to follow the Spirit. What happened to that teaching?

We learned from the scriptures CHRIST is in us, and through His Spirit, we are able to crucify the flesh. And thus we are obey HIM, His leading. I know this is everyone's experience, but I will share mine: I got saved, born again because the Holy Spirit (not Lee or the LC) led me to JESUS. Thus I OBEYED the Holy Spirit's leading. How 'bout that?? Being led to Jesus by the Holy Spirit before I got saved, born again... and not knowing anything about Lee or his teachings. (Yes. an LC brother led me to CHRIST and to the lc but back then, we were all about CHRIST and the Life Giving Spirit. I did not hear about Lee until 4 months after I was in the LC.

Oh how times have changed!


I truly believe the only way we can obey is through our 'eating and drinking' Jesus. And even then we stumble and fall flat on our face.

I will tell you the Holy Spirit, (not the spirit of Lee or religion) convicts me and when He does, I immediately repent and wash myself clean in the Powerful and Precious Blood of the Lamb of God.

One more thing. I am really beginning to think Evangelical is getting a charge of yanking and pulling our chains. He likes to see people's feathers all ruffled up. He likes people to get in a puff'. So he comes up with these absurd and silly comments. I don't believe he even believes half the stuff he writes.

And if he does, he certainly does not have the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and Father God leading him. Evangelical has the spirit of Witness Lee leading him.

I'm sure the Spirit led you to judge.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

Google the word "troll". There are several out there and none of them good.

Nell

Very scriptural:

Mark 10:18 Jesus replied, "No one is good except God alone"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm sure the Spirit led you to judge.

We all should take heed by what spirit we judge. We're all accountable for our words. Too often I write with a spirit of vindictiveness, or bitterness. If an unbeliever comes by, will they fall on their faces and declare that God is here? (1 Cor 14:25)

And when I endure, at my job or with my family, am I just being passive-aggressive, or am I truly bearing the cross, and turning the other cheek? I'll know at the judgment seat of Christ, the Bema. Until then I don't presume too much.

But those who claim to be teachers are to be judged differently (Lu 12:47,48; Ja 3:1). I don't see cmw or Ohio starting a training center, and telling others that they have the ministry of the age. Witness Lee should be judged according to his, and your, claims.

Case in point: what spirit motivated WL in his footnotes? I was reading the RecV on Deuteronomy 17:18-20, on the King of Israel, and His relation to the Father God in Heaven, through the mediatory agency of the word (the law). You know what Lee said? That this pertained to the LSM/lc elders, as the local ruling ones. They're "enjoying grace", says the footnote; not one word about Jesus Christ. Not one word.

Yet Jesus was the King of Israel. If He wasn't, he'd have demurred when Nathaniel declared this, in John 1:49.

WL caused us to look away FROM Jesus, not to look away TO Jesus. (cf Heb 12:2) His teachings put a stumbling in front of the saints. Jesus said the Spirit would reveal the things of the Son to us (John 16:14,15); by contrast, WL said that the scripture showed David in vanity and possessed of fallen human concepts, or else scripture showed (in type) the "NT believer enjoying grace", and entirely missed the Saviour. See e.g., footnotes opening the RecV book of Psalms - and most of the 150 psalms are then panned, or ignored.

So I ask what spirit motivated the author of the footnotes. If we don't see Jesus (Heb 2:9), when context and/or subsequent scriptural reception suggests we might, then how can the Holy Spirit be there?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm sure the Spirit led you to judge.

I believe you are a troll. I believe you know the LC/LSM schpeel inside and out. I don't believe you know Jesus Christ. Even Satan quoted the scriptures and talked to God. Judas hung around with Jesus and the disciples.

Prove to us you are not a troll.
Are you willing to share with us your testimony? I ask respectfully.

Thanks in advance

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I believe you are a troll. I believe you know the LC/LSM schpeel inside and out. I don't believe you know Jesus Christ. Even Satan quoted the scriptures and talked to God. Judas hung around with Jesus and the disciples.

Prove to us you are not a troll.
Are you willing to share with us your testimony? I ask respectfully.

Thanks in advance

Jesus is Lord and came in the flesh, that's all I have to say to prove my salvation. A troll does not post as I do - lengthy, well thought out biblical arguments.

But let's review the topic. This thread is about Anna. What she posted about her elder or church seemed not right to Drake, me, even Ohio it seems. As Drake said "It may also be that the “coworker” is misrepresenting things for some ulterior motive.". My post continued that thought, to say that the coworker may be doing his own thing, if it is a genuine local church. There was nothing troll in my post. Somehow you have turned this into "is Evangelical saved and is he a troll".

I don't know why. How long were you in the local churches if I may ask? Because you don't seem to have detected, like others here have, that what Anna described about this elder does not seem like a typical local church elder. For example, a male elder meeting a female by himself seems unusual, as is his use of terminology , 'prophetess', and 'apostle'. Straight away I know this is not a normal local church or this elder is doing his own thing.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by least

wow. you nailed it.
I tried to understand this 'Evangelical phenomenon' and the best I came up with was: that he is bored, could not behave/speak freely in his blending meetings and so he comes here to spin for entertainment, for himself and others here.
Have fun bro. E. Don't be offended ...
-

Post #85 in Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the
You wrote:

"You dumb ... never learn the LSM games strategy ... loser."

And you say *I* don't have the Spirit of Christ and the Father leading me?

Maybe I just exposed you right now as a phony, talking about the love of Christ one post, and calling people names in other posts. Maybe you are not a phony, everyone gets a little hot under the collar now and then, but I think you have no right to judge who is and who is not led by the Spirit.

[Drake]

Evangelical >”A troll does not post as I do - lengthy, well thought out biblical arguments.”

Right. The “troll” label occasionally gets rolled out as an ad hominem attack. Since you are unconvinced by my argument you must be a troll, so the fallacious argument often goes.

Best as I can tell there are no trolls in this forum, only people following the conviction of their beliefs. Even Awareness.

But I think we should let Anna have this thread and give her the best advice according to the Lords leading. I’m still concerned frankly that something is not right.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Best as I can tell there are no trolls in this forum, only people following the conviction of their beliefs. Even Awareness.

Thanks bro Drake. Ya got me. And again, you're a peach.

But I think we should let Anna have this thread and give her the best advice according to the Lords leading. I’m still concerned frankly that something is not right.

Drake

I think maybe we big bad battling boys (we bbbb's) have perchance scared the angel Anna away.

Or maybe she's greatly impacted by her meeting with a Coworker. He prolly makes us bbbb's look like child's play. He might show more love.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A troll does not post as I do - lengthy, well thought out biblical arguments..

But you have little or no respect for lengthy, well-thought out biblical arguments of others. In this you share the spirit of Lee, who always had time to indulge the voices in his head but never listened to anyone else, deeming them mere "opinions". HIS voices, au contraire, were right from the throne of God! A spirit of strong delusion, if you ask me. Self-obsession. The stuff of earthly satraps, not heavenly kings.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

But you have little or no respect for lengthy, well-thought out biblical arguments of others. In this you share the spirit of Lee, who always had time to indulge the voices in his head but never listened to anyone else, deeming them mere "opinions". HIS voices, au contraire, were right from the throne of God! A spirit of strong delusion, if you ask me. Self-obsession. The stuff of earthly satraps, not heavenly kings.

Aron,

That is not accurate. Brother Lee and Brother Brother Nee before him went to great lengths to identify and credit the many men and women upon whose shoulders they and we all now stand on concerning the truths that God has shown all of us in the Bible. Brother Lee also explained in thousands of messages why he disagreed with some of the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church and denomination Christianity not only from a doctrinal perspective but through his personal experience and journey with the Lord in those groups. Not voices in his or Brother Nee's head, for if that were so then the Lord would not show thousands of us the same thing in the spirit of revelation.

If dismissing well thought out explanations and presentations is your quibble then you need to venture no further than this forum to observe the lack of any serious challenge to Evangelicals well thought out scriptural, historical, and theological arguments put forth for open debate.

Lastly, you mentioned obsession. My goodness aron, I have never seen a worse case of obsession, group think, or tribal mentality as may be found in this place! Your post above and others of its genre are quintessential examples of obsession and other psychological conditions. Bound together by similar decades old experiences you hack to death any deviation from your well rehearsed tribal dance. That , my friend, has become your obsession.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

That is not accurate. Brother Lee and Brother Brother Nee before him went to great lengths to identify and credit the many men and women upon whose shoulders they and we all now stand on concerning the truths that God has shown all of us in the Bible. Brother Lee also explained in thousands of messages why he disagreed with some of the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church and denomination Christianity not only from a doctrinal perspective but through his personal experience and journey with the Lord in those groups. Not voices in his or Brother Nee's head, for if that were so then the Lord would not show thousands of us the same thing in the spirit of revelation.

If dismissing well thought out explanations and presentations is your quibble then you need to venture no further than this forum to observe the lack of any serious challenge to Evangelicals well thought out scriptural, historical, and theological arguments put forth for open debate.

Lastly, you mentioned obsession. My goodness aron, I have never seen a worse case of obsession, group think, or tribal mentality as may be found in this place! Your post above and others of its genre are quintessential examples of obsession and other psychological conditions. Bound together by similar decade old experiences you hack to death any deviation from your well rehearsed tribal dance. That , my friend, has become your obsession.

Drake

This is a message brought to you by the Living Stream Ministry Broadcast Station. (Insert the PBS “The more you know” jingle.)

[aron]

-2

Drake,

Please name 10 Christians ministering in the years 1945-95 that Witness Lee recommended to the church. Name 5.

That's 50 years. How many contemporaries did Lee have? My count is zero. Lee told us in the early '90s that he hadn't learned anything from anyone else for the past 45 years.

I'd like you to show us different.

[HERn]

"That is not accurate. Brother Lee and Brother Brother Nee before him went to great lengths to identify and credit the many men and women upon whose shoulders they and we all now stand on concerning the truths that God has shown all of us in the Bible."

Wow! That is a whopper! I've read or scanned hundreds of books by Lee and Nee and don't remember a single References or Literature Cited section. Take a look at one of John Piper's books. Most every chapter has citations to other Christian writers.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

-2

Drake,

Please name 10 Christians ministering in the years 1945-95 that Witness Lee recommended to the church. Name 5.

That's 50 years. How many contemporaries did Lee have? My count is zero. Lee told us in the early '90s that he hadn't learned anything from anyone else for the past 45 years.

I'd like you to show us different.

That is rock fetch question. On what basis is that even a relevant argument? You may be creating a new fallacy of argumentation - petras fetches aronus!!

However, I will offer you one ducks point of view on this.

Though there are many notable christian authors and ministers in the last century there are none whose ministry or revelation is focused on the building up of the Body of Christ through the establishment of local churches as the basis for unity of all believers as the procedure to accomplish God's eternal purpose that He may gain His bride to bring the Lord back and establish His kingdom on the earth. In my view, there is no higher calling or purpose for a Christian than that. I have not found any ministries that aspire to achieve that in teaching, practice, or mission. Though I still read a variety of authors and ministers I have found in the ministry of Brothers Nee and Lee the most complete compilation of fundamental orthodox christian teaching and the revelation of God's eternal purpose as a special calling to those whom He wills to reveal it.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by HERn

"I've read or scanned hundreds of books by Lee and Nee and don't remember a single References or Literature Cited section. Take a look at one of John Piper's books. Most every chapter has citations to other Christian writers.

Well then HEn, you should go to the lsm.org site and read more.

Here is but one small token of what mean:


"We are not boasting that we have seen the picture of God’s eternal purpose, for we are standing on others’ shoulders to see this vision. We thank God for those who have gone before us. Many great teachers are our support. We are standing on the shoulders of John Nelson Darby, Darby stood on the shoulders of Count von Zinzendorf, and Zinzendorf stood on the shoulders of Martin Luther. We have gone higher, not by ourselves but by standing on all the foregoing great teachers. The divine book has never been as open and clear to the church as it is today. Even twenty years ago the Bible was not as clear to us as it is today. It took us more than forty years to properly place some of the pieces of the puzzle. It is because of the Lord’s mercy and grace that today we are able to see and speak of God’s eternal purpose, which is to work Himself into all of His chosen people as their life, nature, and everything that they may be fully saturated by and with God Himself. This purpose can be seen in Ephesians 3:17, which says, “That Christ may make His home in your hearts.” Christ making His home in our hearts is the experience of God working Himself into us to fulfill His eternal purpose."

The Vision and Experience of the Corporate Christ. Witness Lee

Drake

[HERn]

Very good, Drake! Please, take a look at this site where there are many references to the riches of God's word. https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...s-dg-recommend

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

John Nelson Darby, Count von Zinzendorf, and Martin Luther.

aron,

He has provided you 3 of 5 so far.

I remember the first time in the LSm church that someone mentioned Zinzendorf... they were stunned I hadn't heard of him before.

I'm trying to think if I can help out Drake... maybe something will come to me.

In the mean time, lets check out LSm approved books in their bookstore. How many authors do they have out of all their publications?

https://www.livingstream.com/en/35-books

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

aron,

He has provided you 3 of 5 so far.

I remember the first time in the LSm church that someone mentioned Zinzendorf... they were stunned I hadn't heard of him before.

I'm trying to think if I can help out Drake... maybe something will come to me.

In the mean time, lets check out LSm approved books in their bookstore. How many authors do they have out of all their publications?

https://www.livingstream.com/en/35-books

It says "Publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee" at the top, so what else do you expect?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It says "Publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee" at the top, so what else do you expect?

Well the word ministry is in their name...and we all know how important names are - especially you Evangel. So I guess you'd be right, what else would I expect - after all - the "ministry" is to Witness Lee and Nee - not Christ.

But then I'm confused, because their website says:

"Living Stream Ministry has one goal: to supply spiritual food for the nourishment of all believers that they may grow in the divine life for the sake of the building up of the Body of Christ."

So is the ministry for Christ, or for Lee?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

That is rock fetch question. On what basis is that even a relevant argument? You may be creating a new fallacy of argumentation - petras fetches aronus!!

It’s not a rock fetch because there’s no rock to fetch.

Kenneth Wuest (1883-1962)
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)
William E. Vine (1883-1949)
Henry Alford (N.T. in Greek [1841-1861])
Marvin Vincent (1834-1922) (Word Studies in the N.T., 1887)
Gerhard Kittel (1888-1948)

“There is no evidence Lee used contemporary resources” N. Tomes

[Drake]

-1

Originally Posted by aron

It’s not a rock fetch because there’s no rock to fetch.

“There is no evidence Lee used contemporary resources” N. Tomes

Oh, now I see. Nigel Tomes made an irrelevant point so you ran with it.

Nevertheless, it is still a fallacy in argumentation.

Drake

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Well the word ministry is in their name...and we all know how important names are - especially you Evangel. So I guess you'd be right, what else would I expect - after all - the "ministry" is to Witness Lee and Nee - not Christ.

But then I'm confused, because their website says:

"Living Stream Ministry has one goal: to supply spiritual food for the nourishment of all believers that they may grow in the divine life for the sake of the building up of the Body of Christ."

So is the ministry for Christ, or for Lee?

The apostle Paul had a ministry, and he published books which comprise a large portion of what we now call the New Testament.

Think about it.

[aron]

-2

Irrelevant? I said Lee only listened to the voices in his head. Who could talk to him? No one. From 1945 to 1995 who guided him? No one.

What spirit led him when he dunned the saints for funds for his son's motor home business, then told them to consider it a donation?

I say it was a spirit of strong delusion. The man wasn't even qualified to be leader in a local assembly, much less sole mouthpiece of God for the present age.

And you're worried that the person talking to our poster 'anna' is independent? What was Lee but independent? What or who could ever restrain him?

[Drake]

-1

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

Take responsibility for substantiating your own argument by showing five ministries between 1945 and 1995 that should have guided Brother Lee in his ministry and explain why.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

Take responsibility for substantiating your own argument by showing five ministries between 1945 and 1995 that should have guided Brother Lee in his ministry and explain why.

Thanks
Drake

I could give you 55. You know why? They listen to others. Lee listened to no one.

NT Wright

JG Steyn

Robert Mounce

GK Beale

Loren T Stuckenbruck

Whatever happened to being the least in this age, if you wanted to be great in the kingdom of God? Lee wanted to be great in this age, and he guaranteed that he'll be the least in the next age. Lee lived in a world where nobody else could compare to his greatness. The world of illusion. Wake up. God has lots of people qualified to minister. Always has. Not just one spiritual giant and his drooling sycophants.

[Drake]

-1

Why?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well then HEn, you should go to the lsm.org site and read more.

Here is but one small token of what mean:


"We are not boasting that we have seen the picture of God’s eternal purpose, for we are standing on others’ shoulders to see this vision. We thank God for those who have gone before us. Many great teachers are our support. We are standing on the shoulders of John Nelson Darby, Darby stood on the shoulders of Count von Zinzendorf, and Zinzendorf stood on the shoulders of Martin Luther. We have gone higher, not by ourselves but by standing on all the foregoing great teachers. The divine book has never been as open and clear to the church as it is today. Even twenty years ago the Bible was not as clear to us as it is today. It took us more than forty years to properly place some of the pieces of the puzzle. It is because of the Lord’s mercy and grace that today we are able to see and speak of God’s eternal purpose, which is to work Himself into all of His chosen people as their life, nature, and everything that they may be fully saturated by and with God Himself. This purpose can be seen in Ephesians 3:17, which says, “That Christ may make His home in your hearts.” Christ making His home in our hearts is the experience of God working Himself into us to fulfill His eternal purpose."

The Vision and Experience of the Corporate Christ. Witness Lee

Drake

Darby stood on the shoulders of Count von Zinzendorf?

Any evidence for this?

Why not his fellow countrymen Whitefield and the Wesleys?

Never!

Darby doubtfully stood on anyone's shoulders. There were few brothers he even respected. Anthony Groves, Chapman, and Henry Craik maybe. Maybe.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Oh, now I see. Nigel Tomes made an irrelevant point so you ran with it.

Nevertheless, it is still a fallacy in argumentation.

Drake

Drake, you guys at LSM sure have a problem with contemporary scholarship, even within the LC's, Nigel Tomes for example.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

Take responsibility for substantiating your own argument by showing five ministries between 1945 and 1995 that should have guided Brother Lee in his ministry and explain why.

Thanks
Drake

T. Austin-Sparks, contemporary of Nee, for one. He was mentioned often in the LC's.

How about Christian Chen, Stephen Kaung, and the other co-workers of Nee?

How about J. Vernon McGee and others?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Why?

I already told you. They listened, they learned. Lee would not learn. Supposedly he was above all that. (Even though he didn't know Greek or Hebrew & taught from 19th-century word studies).

If you can't learn, how can you teach? Remember, "As you do - so you get". How did Lee expect anyone to learn from him if he couldn't learn from others? The only thing he listened to was the voice in his head. And that voice was not God, sorry.

Others:

D Boyarin (not a Christian, I know, but he gets into thought-worlds of early Christianity v/v Judaism like Lee & Blendeds never could)

AF Segal

G Stroumsa

A Harnack

G Vermes

E Schurer

Originally Posted by Drake

Though there are many notable christian authors and ministers in the last century there are none whose ministry or revelation is focused on the building up of the Body of Christ through the establishment of local churches as the basis for unity of all believers as the procedure to accomplish God's eternal purpose that He may gain His bride to bring the Lord back and establish His kingdom on the earth.

You still have not answered post #61. What spirit led to the creation of the Daystar Motor Home Company with church members' money? And when it was gone, they were told to "Consider it a donation"? If it was not the Holy Spirit, then how can you say that God used Lee to establish His kingdom? If Lee was so flawed, why was he supposed to be so great?

Sycophant: one who gets fleeced by a Guru and comes back for more. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Remember, if you want to teach then you have to be willing to learn. Lee refused the latter & thus signally failed as the former.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Sycophant: one who gets fleeced by a Guru and comes back for more. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Drake,

I know you'll probably protest you didn't lose a farthing to Timothy Lee and Daystar. But the ones who rose to prominence in the '70s and '80s did, and they learned to come back for more. How do you think they made it to the top?

And you base the legitimacy of your Christian walk, at least in part, on the legitimacy of theirs. The vaunted church life, found nowhere else. All those dressing-downs, aka spiritual perfection - they learned to take it & come back for more.

[Drake]

-1 & -2

Aron,

Let’s stay with the argument you introduced and there is ample and endless time afterward for you to revert to your usual talking points.

You have recommended 5 men that should have guided Brother Lee between 1945 and 1995. Why these 5? What focus or insight would they EACH bring to the ministry of Witness Lee or to him personally?

First, confirm that you have personally read more than a single article by EACH of these men, that this is not a list you got from Nigel Tomes but that you are personally familiar with their teaching, and then substantiate your recommendation to add them as advisors to the ministry of Witness Lee by listing the specific focus and insight they would bring to that ministry.

List them here (5 is sufficient to make your point)

1. NT Wright

2. JG Steyn

3. Robert Mounce

4. GK Beale

5. Loren T Stuckenbruck


Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I know you'll probably protest you didn't lose a farthing to Timothy Lee and Daystar. But the ones who rose to prominence in the '70s and '80s did, and they learned to come back for more. How do you think they made it to the top?

I was told by an old-time ex-LCer that no one lost money to Daystar, and everyone was repaid. That was the message everyone heard from WL and TC.

Funny how "lies can circle the globe before truth even puts on his shoes."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Let’s stay with the argument you introduced and there is ample and endless time afterward for you to revert to your usual talking points.

Dear Drake,

Why is it that the poster associated with LSM, which has its own Public Relations team, its own Legal Defense team, and an army of seasoned Wordsmiths can accuse a handful of posters of "reverting to our usual talking points."

Doesn't the stench of hypocrisy trouble you in the least?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Let’s stay with the argument you introduced and there is ample and endless time afterward for you to revert to your usual talking points.

Talk about a rock fetch! You don't give me one name. Witness Lee had no peers. Right? I give you plenty of names, of "other Christian voices that Lee, and any sseking one, would do well to heed.

1. They spoke Greek and Hebrew. Lee instead used decades-old word studies.
2. They actually learned from one another. Lee was unable to learn from anyone. He told us that. I was in the meeting. 45 years, he said, nothing good from "Christianity".

Therefore Lee was either God's special anointed one, raised up to lead us all to light and peace, or he was a sham. The Daystar and Philip Lee fiascos show the fruit. Yet you repeatedly ignore it. Lee was unqualified to be a local church elder, much less the minister of God's kingdom on earth.

Talking points?? "Building up the Body", "Consummated high peak truths", etc. That's all I hear, is make-believe spirituality from one man's mind, and uncorroborated by a single other witness. Only Witness Lee. No other witness comes forth. None. Talk about a troll!

Here, let me give you one example. Witness Lee said that Jesus Christ was "a prophet like Moses" in that 1) he was a human being, like Moses, and 2) he prophesied, which was to "speak forth God". Paul's epistle to the Corinthians was referenced.

Now, I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but that looks pretty thin to me. Maybe Witness Lee should have been a student before he became a teacher. #1 Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel were also human beings like Moses, but they were not the "prophet like Moses"; else the people in John's gospel would not have repeatedly been referencing "the" prophet (the RecV even uses a capital 'p').

And "speaking forth God" is not the answer because Paul and Peter and James and you and I can all presumably prophesy one by one.

No, Jesus was the new Moses because he gave us the new law. The new covenant. He alone spoke to God the Father face to face, like Moses. Nobody else could go up that particular mountain. Just like Moses. "if even a donkey should touch the mountain it would be stoned to death."

I don't know what Beale said about "a prophet like Moses". But I bet it was not the Just So Story of Uncle Witness. Have you ever read any of these writers? Wright? Beale? Steyn? Reading them, and then reading Lee is like going back to 3rd grade. Seriously. Why was Moses' prophecy repeated in Acts 2 by Peter and in Acts 7 by Stephen? To show us that Jesus was a human being? Really? That's all the information that the oracle of God can suss from the text? I can go anywhere and find better than that! And I will.

Drake, I'm sorry I can't convince you. You're obviously resolute in seeing Witness Lee as God's special messenger for these last days. But I look at the LSM/lc and see megalomania and stubbornly brain-dead acolytes.

[Drake]

-1

So you have read the writings all of those 5 men, did I get that right?

Yet Aron, you have yet to provide any explanation why EACH of them should be Witness Lees counselors to his ministry other then they spoke Greek and Hebrew and listened and learned (which my poodle does pretty well at also). With that as a criteria just about any one of tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of people who speak both languages could fit the bill by your definition, even unbelievers which you included at least one in your top ten list. But if you mean theologians then what do you think a ministry is, some kind of theological social club or think tank?

Yet, you admittedly, know neither language yourself, nor do you have a ministry, but you would counsel God who His ministers should be and from whom they should take their direction?

Seriously, aron, you make an assertion that you borrowed from Nigel Tomes and demand that Witness Lee could have learned from these men and we are supposed to take your word for it because....... you said it? That is probably good enough for many if not most in this forum, but I for one am not taken in by your raving antics about lost fortunes on hotdog looking motor homes. Why, if you said your issue was that you lost a bunch of money in Daystar, and that set you back pretty hard, and you wished that the CEO of Winnebago had been brought in as a trusted advisor to that operation , well then that would at least be logical and understandable. What is not logical or understandable is why Witness Lees ministry, or any ministry for that matter in the entire world, should heed advice and counsel from someone who has no ministry whatsoever, criticizes those who do for not knowing Greek and Hebrew though he does not know it himself either, and is not capable to muster even a simple compelling argument as to why the men he nominates are qualified to be ministry counselors.

No Aron, I am not convinced. Not because I am a brain dead acolyte as you say. Rather, because you have no compelling argument.

So, you have nominated 5 men as counselors to Witness Lees ministry. Now, explain why EACH them should serve in the role. It’s your argument to make, not mine.

Drake

[UntoHim]

I see the living, breathing, walking, talking fallacy machine is hard at work again! Employing the Change the Argument fallacy (Ignoratio elenchi) Bringing out the old Strawman fallacy and topping it all off with liberal use of the Ad Hominem fallacy.

Sometimes I wonder if our old friend Drake has pre-written form posts that all he has to do is insert a few details such as the name of the person he is attacking/insulting, and couple sound bites from the original post. Hey Drake, A broken record called us asking for his gig back...

Seriously. If you don't want to address the issue at hand then just open another thread for the things you really want to talk about....you know....claiming that any former LC member who dares address any of the false teaching, harmful, divisive practices or sordid history is just venting out from some personal offense from 30 years ago, has ambition problems, been poisoned by other opposers...yada yada yada....
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

That is probably good enough for many if not most in this forum, but I for one am not taken in by your raving antics about lost fortunes on hotdog looking motor homes.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey Drake, A broken record called us asking for his gig back...

Too funny!

Thanks guys. I always like good clean humor.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, you have yet to provide any explanation why EACH of them should be Witness Lees counselors to his ministry other then they spoke Greek and Hebrew and listened and learned (which my poodle does pretty well at also).

So your poodle can listen and learn, but Lee could not. Maybe you'd better follow your poodle.

In your defense you say there's no one to learn from besides Lee. I've started another thread to address that question. It's worth examining. We'll see if anyone out there has any ideas. You may indeed be right- who knows?

[Drake]

-1

Oh wow aron, I'd definitely follow my poodle before I'd follow you.

Also, in all your scampering to avoid substantiating your opinion you never offered the scriptural basis for a ministry needing surround themselves with other ministries or theologians.

What is it?

Feel free to reference Tomes if that helps.

We can pick it up in the other thread and give this back to Anna.

Thanks
Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by anna

Hi I've recently joined and left a local church
I am meeting with a brother tomorrow who wishes me to return
Any advice?

That happened to me once (2009/2010). Friendly talk concluding with a conditional word/request.
I have only one question regarding advice; what caused you to leave that you would want to go back to?
Often it seems people leave because the ministry is found to be lacking and brothers/sisters want something more in substance. Has anything changed?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The apostle Paul had a ministry, and he published books which comprise a large portion of what we now call the New Testament.

Think about it.

I never thought about that - Paul was a book publisher, kinda like the LSm, but different. Very interesting thought Evanglic.

Paul's ministry WAS Christ. Lee's ministry WAS HIS "ministry" - he made that very clear. I've heard his phone call with Sal Benoit... and also the many testimonies here on this forum.

Paul:
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Paul:
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Wish I had been there bro leastofthese, to hear Paul speak. It's hard to know someone by their writings.

[UntoHim]

You make a good point awareness. The thing is though, the goal of Paul's writings is not to get to know Paul, the goal is to get to know God.

"That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,"
(Philippians 3:10)

And this is the reason why it is a fool's errand to spend a lot of time, energy and fuss about whether or not the apostle Paul actually and literally wrote a certain NT book attributed to him - Man...even the biblical authors....are simply the instruments which God uses to bring His Word to us.
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[awareness]

Same thing bro Untohim. It's hard to know God by His writings. His LIVING SPEAKING helps a lot. Seeing Him is the best way. Paul saw Jesus.

[UntoHim]

Of course it's hard, Harold, didn't your mommy teach you that anything worth while takes lots of time and much effort?

Where Witness Lee and his followers have got it wrong (with devastatingly tragic results) is that they believe that the interpretation of the Divine Revelation is actually equal to the Divine Revelation itself. This is how Lee could make such absurd declarations as "James was devoid of the Divine Revelation". Of course this is preposterous on it's face - James could NOT have been devoid of the Divine Revelation because his writings ARE THE DIVINE REVELATION!

Furthermore, God's "living speaking" is contained in the Word of God, NOT in the interpretation of it. At best, all man does is add a little salt and pepper. Lee got it backwards - he taught that his interpretations and teachings were the main course, and the Bible was to be employed as simply a proof text.
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[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Of course it's hard, Harold, didn't your mommy teach you that anything worth while takes lots of time and much effort?

Where Witness Lee and his followers have got it wrong (with devastatingly tragic results) is that they believe that the interpretation of the Divine Revelation is actually equal to the Divine Revelation itself. This is how Lee could make such absurd declarations as "James was devoid of the Divine Revelation". Of course this is preposterous on it's face - James could NOT have been devoid of the Divine Revelation because his writings ARE THE DIVINE REVELATION!

Furthermore, God's "living speaking" is contained in the Word of God, NOT in the interpretation of it. At best, all man does is add a little salt and pepper. Lee got it backwards - he taught that his interpretations and teachings were the main course, and the Bible was to be employed as simply a proof text.
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I would say the Recovery both respects the Word of God as the divine revelation and also the interpretation as the divine revelation. Yes there is the interpretation, but remember there is also pray-reading the Word which respects the Word itself as the divine revelation.

Some parts of the bible need more interpretation than others. e.g. clear cut words from Christ or the prophets don't need much interpretation. Revelation needs a lot of interpretation - one could read it forever and still not understand it.

I dont think the bible agrees that the interpretation is not the revelation. The interpretation is otherwise known as the spirit of the word/law. The interpretation is more important than the letter as bible says. Thats why a believer and unbeliever can read the same passage and one gets revelation and the other doesn't. If the words themselves were the revelation then everyone would get revelation when they read it. Even people of other faiths read the bible but they dont get revelation because of their wrong interpretation. Christians interpret the old testament through the lens of the new testament. There is always some interpretation involved. A written "God said" divine revelation to a Jew is a "God said" interpretation to a Christian, particularly where it concerns the law.

By the way, the book of James was treated with suspicion in the early church, not being found in the earliest list of new testament books, and accepted later as the divine revelation. So we can't escape this matter of interpretation, whether it is the text itself or its authenticity.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Drake

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Sister anna,

I would not meet one on one... but always with another present or a couple. Where are the elders?

Something is not right about this..... that is my sense.

Drake

Drake, I would agree with you. In my experience when an elder came to visit me in my home, he brought another brother (a non-elder at the time) as a witness.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by anna

I was quite disturbed as the older brother knew what was wrong in the group but felt that the answer was to love and not judge but I felt that was a get out clause for him.

This seems to be common. Elders, co-workers, and responsible ones know and maybe even disagree, but perhaps in private discussions. Certainly will not publicly contradict their peer responsible brothers until they themselves have been thrown under the bus. Until that time they will kowtow.