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Old 07-24-2008, 02:17 PM   #1
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Default Witness Lee's teaching on women

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Originally Posted by Thankful Jane View Post
WL said that all the major heresies in church history were introduced by women. You might not hear that the same way a woman would. I was told that sisters cannot get revelation from the Bible. Why? ... because they can be easily deceived, like Eve was. You can't know what it's like to not be able to open your Bible for years and read it without fear that you might be being deceived if you happen to think you see anything in what you read, and that because of a pronouncement that was laid on you by some of Adam's descendants.
Thankful?

Are you kidding me?

I mean, I could believe it, I guess, because of the cultural context, but, it just seems so extreme!

Can you tell me where I could find this opinion in print? I've still got a bunch of old books on my shelf but I don't want this sort of thing in my house for sure! That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, the lack of knowledge of Christian history revealed in such a statement is astonishing. Women weren't even permitted speak on such topics for most of the last 2000 + years!

How can they be "silent in the church" and simultaneously the leaders of the heresies??? :rollingeyes2:
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:29 PM   #2
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Default Witness Lee's teaching on women

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Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
Thankful?

Are you kidding me?

I mean, I could believe it, I guess, because of the cultural context, but, it just seems so extreme!

Can you tell me where I could find this opinion in print? I've still got a bunch of old books on my shelf but I don't want this sort of thing in my house for sure! That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, the lack of knowledge of Christian history revealed in such a statement is astonishing. Women weren't even permitted speak on such topics for most of the last 2000 + years!

How can they be "silent in the church" and simultaneously the leaders of the heresies??? :rollingeyes2:

You know, I absolutely remember this "teaching" clearly. I remember reading it, and talking about it.

Jane: WL said that all the major heresies in church history were introduced by women. You might not hear that the same way a woman would. I was told that sisters cannot get revelation from the Bible. Why? ... because they can be easily deceived, like Eve was.

I can not remember where I read it, but I clearly remember it. Jane, do you know where it was?

And then, of course, I heard so many times "this is so simple, even the sisters will understand". If only I had a dollar for each time ---

Simple-minded and all heresies and deception came from woman. Nice.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:31 PM   #3
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Thankful?
Quote:
Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post

Are you kidding me?

I mean, I could believe it, I guess, because of the cultural context, but, it just seems so extreme!

Can you tell me where I could find this opinion in print? I've still got a bunch of old books on my shelf but I don't want this sort of thing in my house for sure! That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, the lack of knowledge of Christian history revealed in such a statement is astonishing. Women weren't even permitted speak on such topics for most of the last 2000 + years!

How can they be "silent in the church" and simultaneously the leaders of the heresies???
I wish I was kidding you.... “Extreme” is a word that WL wears well. I cannot tell you where this is in print. It may be one of the things that got edited out. Maybe someone else knows.

One thing for sure, the women who heard it, didn’t forget it. Since this statement is clearly not a product of logic, as you so eloquently stated, then it’s pretty clear that it’s a product of the enmity between Satan and the woman.

That you don’t want to have such a statement in your house warms my heart!!! You’re an okay dude, YP0534!

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Old 07-24-2008, 02:34 PM   #4
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And, I would hate to see this discussion moved to the Women's Only thread.

When this sort of bigotry exists, everyone needs to hear it. OBW, I really do understand your point. I do not enjoy entering into sort of theological discussions at all --- they usually seem so circular to me. But if you know that this is what women were taught at that place, it becomes relevant.

Control on any level was what WL was all about. All holds barred for the sake of control.

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Old 07-24-2008, 03:04 PM   #5
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I can not remember where I read it, but I clearly remember it. Jane, do you know where it was?
No, I don't. Maybe someone can find it since we now know it’s out there...
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And then, of course, I heard so many times "this is so simple, even the sisters will understand". If only I had a dollar for each time ---Simple-minded and all heresies and deception came from woman. Nice.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard him use the phrase “clever sisters" in a derogatory way. He said they were always troublemakers. I always wondered what he meant by “clever.” Since he put it in such a bad light, I always thought he meant "cunning" or something like that, but my dictionary says it means “showing intelligence.” Hmmm ....

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Old 07-24-2008, 03:07 PM   #6
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You know, I absolutely remember this "teaching" clearly. I remember reading it, and talking about it.

Jane: WL said that all the major heresies in church history were introduced by women. You might not hear that the same way a woman would. I was told that sisters cannot get revelation from the Bible. Why? ... because they can be easily deceived, like Eve was.

I can not remember where I read it, but I clearly remember it. Jane, do you know where it was?

And then, of course, I heard so many times "this is so simple, even the sisters will understand". If only I had a dollar for each time ---

Simple-minded and all heresies and deception came from woman. Nice.

Huh.


I knew of two things and they didn't quite sit well but I didn't have a huge issue with them.

One, I heard the repetitions of the express words of Paul, which present issues of their own. A brother I know and I have discussed this recently and he's of the opinion that some of this kind of talk may actually be later superimposition on the text by clerics. I haven't investigated that but it does seem plausible. In any event, to make too much of what Paul presumably taught doesn't even make sense in the context of the rest of the New Testament. If there is anything to it beyond Paul's own culture, it surely isn't much.

The other thing I heard that I have been guilty of repeating is that the sisters are in the lead when there is a degraded situation. And I think I made reference to it elsewhere at some point that the thing I noticed was that however much of a position the brothers in the Local Churches held and exercised, I always touched something of more practical enjoyment and expression of Christ in the prayers and singing of the sisters in the meetings. In other words, to my perception, the so-called spiritual brothers were kind of playing at being little kings while the truly spiritual sisters exercised yet more patience and let them play.

Of course, this is just my perception. The burdens and sufferings of the sisters clearly aren't worthy to be compared with the responsibility of wielding the power of a deputy authority.

Yes.

There is something upside down about that, isn't there?


(P.S. full disclosure - knowing what makes a good husband doesn't necessarily make you a good husband, unfortunately)
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:19 PM   #7
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And, I would hate to see this discussion moved to the Women's Only thread.

When this sort of bigotry exsists, everyone needs to hear it.
If you moved this one to Mary and Martha's house, I think I would have to ask for permission to visit there for this discussion. I do not think we should ignore this important issue.

But I would like to see this in another thread since, once again again, I'm not sure the Midwestern brothers have really been focused on this particular topic.

Although, I could be mistaken.

I'm not up on all the news from the Midwest.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:39 PM   #8
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One, I heard the repetitions of the express words of Paul, which present issues of their own. A brother I know and I have discussed this recently and he's of the opinion that some of this kind of talk may actually be later superimposition on the text by clerics. I haven't investigated that but it does seem plausible. In any event, to make too much of what Paul presumably taught doesn't even make sense in the context of the rest of the New Testament. If there is anything to it beyond Paul's own culture, it surely isn't much.
I have been studying a book by a sister who was born in the mid 1800’s who studied in depth what you have touched on here in your post. I have found studying this to be fascinating. If you're interested in this topic, you might be interested in this book. There is an online version of it available: God's Word to Women by Katharine Bushnell. Here is her impressive bio and a little about how the book came into being:

Katharine C. Bushnell (1856-1946) was a courageous and gifted servant of God who modeled her life’s motto “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Phil 4:13). She was a physician, missionary, crusader, reformer, author and speaker as well as a brilliant and original scholar who spoke seven languages and was grounded in Greek and Hebrew. Bushnell left medicine to do what she considered the more important work of reforming conditions of human degradation through leadership in the Women’s Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) of the 19th century women’s movement. The scriptural status of women was of intense concern to Bushnell who came to believe that mistranslations were responsible for the social and spiritual subjugation of women. She left the WCTU in 1896 to spend her remaining years writing and sharing the biblical truth of God’s original and unchanging intent of full equality for women.

God's Word to Women by Katharine Bushnell is a groundbreaking study that carefully examines every scripture relating to women. Jessie Penn Lewis said that the material opened up the Scriptures in a way that can only be described as containing a revelation direct from God. For many today, it is the book that set them free to be what God has called them to be and to do the work that the Holy Spirit has placed in their hearts.

While in China as a medical missionary, Bushnell discovered that the Chinese Bible was mistranslated to support cultural prejudice against the ministry of women. She wondered whether the same male bias might prejudice English translations as well and renewed her study of Hebrew and Greek. Later, while traveling throughout the world for the WCTU, she made good use of hours spent on trains, boats and in rooms where she was staying to carefully compare biblical translations with the Word as found in the original languages.

Through experience and study, the Lord was preparing Bushnell to write God's Word to Women. Begun in 1908 as a correspondence course, it was first published privately by Bushnell. Despite positive early reaction, the book soon disappeared; and Bushnell died believing that her life had made little impact. God knew better! The book was rediscovered and continues to be republished by those who see its priceless value. Today it is finally receiving well-deserved recognition as a foundational reference for those working on the cutting edge of biblical equality for women.

I think WL might have considered her to be a clever sister.

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Old 07-24-2008, 06:09 PM   #9
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If you moved this one to Mary and Martha's house, I think I would have to ask for permission to visit there for this discussion. I do not think we should ignore this important issue.

But I would like to see this in another thread since, once again again, I'm not sure the Midwestern brothers have really been focused on this particular topic.

Although, I could be mistaken.

I'm not up on all the news from the Midwest.
YP--

I know! You could open a thread. Call it "The house of Mary, Martha and Lazrus". Of course, you could call it "Mary, Martha and Lazrus' house, but Lazrus' (possessive) is so clumsy to pronounce.

I see appx. 89 brothers coming this way from the midwest with water balloon launchers in both hands and they don't look like this:

The house of Mary, Martha and Lazrus. Has a nice ring doesn't it? Admin can move the posts as soon as you're ready. After TJ's last post, we've gone to a whole 'nuther level. She's really now.

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Old 07-24-2008, 07:00 PM   #10
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Some nearly random thoughts along the line this discussion has been taking:

1. On cultural context --In addition to verses on women, Paul also said in Ephesians 6, "Slaves, obey your masters, etc". Today, we don't think much about that apostolic injunction; we ignore it because it is no longer culturally relevant. In the pre-Civil War days of America, perhaps it might have been bandied about in conversations, or even from the pulpit, but the collective enterprise known as 'society' has moved on and so has the 'church'. Why not the same with women, not withstanding the obvious physical differences, and so forth? Why insist on rigidly holding the 'old standard', even when the society of which we are a part has so obviously moved on? Why not give women the same rights of equality we do to the blacks and the native americans and the jews? Very strange to me. It has never computed, the lack of logic of that one.

2. Paul also says in Galatians chapter 3, "There is no Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free, no male nor female". In the eternal realm, the spiritual realm, there is no distinction, no 'rule' and 'obey'. So in the slavery days a christian slave needed to heed the temporal outward situation, knowing that in God he was free forever. But those slavery days are over. Likewise, in the gender inequality times a believing female needed to heed the social constraints, even though in God she was completely free and equal to every one else. Outwardly, she had to accept a context in which there were few choices beyond staying home and tending the children. Those outward days of inequality are over. Why try to keep them in the church?

3. Someone needs to tell Ron Kangas he is a borderline misogynist, if not a full-blown one. He really puts down the sisters. The contempt dripping from his voice is obvious to me, and quite offensive, and I am a brother! I can't imagine what it would be like as a female to sit there and take it as he endeavors to put them in their "proper" place. It is really odious. I bet it stinks all the way to high heaven.
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Old 07-24-2008, 07:36 PM   #11
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Just to put in my twosense. Anybody heard of Fanny Crosby? She was a sister who lived in the 19th century and into the 20th century (1820-1915). Over 8000 hymns are attributed to her. One of her most sung hymns is Blessed Assurance. #308 in the Hymnal.

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Old 07-24-2008, 07:43 PM   #12
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Thumbs up For Terry

A line from Fanny Crosby's Blessed Assurance:

Visions of rapture now burst on my sight.



Here's the deal ..... she was blind. All the rapturous visions, with her spiritual eyes. Beautiful, huh?





FPO

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Old 07-24-2008, 07:53 PM   #13
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3. Someone needs to tell Ron Kangas he is a borderline misogynist, if not a full-blown one. He really puts down the sisters. The contempt dripping from his voice is obvious to me, and quite offensive, and I am a brother! I can't imagine what it would be like as a female to sit there and take it as he endeavors to put them in their "proper" place. It is really odious. I bet it stinks all the way to high heaven.
Brothers who may have contempt for sisters or have little thought for sister's meaningful contributions, I wouldn't call it a Local Church practice. Rather could a brother's upbringing forge their attitudes and behaviors towards sisters?

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Old 07-24-2008, 08:05 PM   #14
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Brothers who may have contempt for sisters or have little thought for sister's meaningful contributions, I wouldn't call it a Local Church practice. Rather could a brother's upbringing forge their attitudes and behaviors towards sisters?

Terry

Terry:

Without a doubt, men can have all sorts of reasons why they have wrong and hurtful attitudes about women. And all sorts of churches have these ideas, the LC is not alone in this. Remember, Jimmy Carter was a Baptist for, oh I don't know --- forever --- and he dropped his official membership because of their stances concerning women.

It IS a local church practice, because it is insitutionalized. They preach it from the pulpit. That is not to say that every brother there has those beliefs, but it is to say it is accepted and actually taught there.

Shame on them.

FPO

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Old 07-24-2008, 09:29 PM   #15
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And all sorts of churches have these ideas, the LC is not alone in this.

FPO
FPO, back in the 60's when people started meeting what is now known as the Local Churches, not all of them were newly regenerated Christians. I'm sure many came out of Baptist, Southern Baptist, Mennonite, Jehovah Witness, Brethren, Presbyterian, among other possible backgrounds.
In many cases whatever their backgrounds were, attitudes and behaviors from these backgrounds came with them.

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Old 07-24-2008, 09:47 PM   #16
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FPO, back in the 60's when people started meeting what is now known as the Local Churches, not all of them were newly regenerated Christians. I'm sure many came out of Baptist, Southern Baptist, Mennonite, Jehovah Witness, Brethren, Presbyterian, among other possible backgrounds.
In many cases whatever their backgrounds were, attitudes and behaviors from these backgrounds came with them.

Terry
Terry:

That's true, and probably continues to be true. Let's see if anyone can find the place where WL actually writes about how all deception came from Eve, and even to this day women can be so easily deceived, etc, etc on and on. Terry, he did. He preached that women are less than men. And I do know that this is not exclusive to the lc, but like all things, they took it further than many people.

And how single sisters were treated is a whole other story. Without a man, a sister was really really lesser. But it's late, and that really is a whole other story.

I'm going to watch a little Letterman, just a few minutes, read a tiny bit and then it is snooze-ville for me. uttingtosleep:uttingtosleep:uttingtosleep:


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Old 07-25-2008, 04:07 AM   #17
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Default Concerning the Sisters

OK

I'm not really feeling like I've got a whole lot to share on this topic of the "proper role of sisters" but it's obvious to me that there's a whole lot to discuss and this thread needs a home.

So, trusting that Admin or Helper will move all of the sisters-related fellowship from the "89 brothers" thread to this temporary abode of Mary, Martha and Lazarus, I offer the following.

I found the quote about the heresies.

Quote:
The "law" in verse 34 refers to the books written by Moses (Matt. 5:17; 7:12; 11:13). In Moses' writings, Genesis 3:16 charges the woman to be subject to man's rule. This is God's ordination.

First Corinthians 14:34 should not be understood in isolation from the rest of the Bible. On the contrary, we need to interpret the Bible by the Bible and with the Bible. According to the teaching of the entire New Testament, sisters may prophesy, but they do not have the authority to define doctrines. This must be left to the brothers. Furthermore, it is a fact of history that some of the most serious heresies have come in through women.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of First Corinthians

So, Lee's word is technically not that ALL the worst heresies came in through the sisters. Still, the implication is obviously that the sisters are just too unreliable.

Here's another interesting quote:

Quote:
We who are used to the church life are truly under God’s blessing, not only spiritually and mentally, but even physically. All of the church people are so healthy because they are under God’s blessing through the church life. Many of the church people can testify that before they came into the church life they were weak and sickly. Many were sick mentally, but after being in the church life they became sober and healthy. This is the blessing. This blessing comes as a result of offering Christ to God through the cross. Sisters, if you want to be healthy, you need to experience Christ and to offer Him to God through the cross. If you live this way for awhile, you will see how strong you will be and how mentally sober you will become. Every young sister who lives this way will be healthy both mentally and emotionally. Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist - come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God’s blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living - all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ
through the cross.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis

Just one more for now.

Quote:
WIVES TO BE SUBJECT TO THEIR HUSBANDS
Let us now go on to consider 3:1-7 verse by verse. Verse 1 says, "In like manner, wives, subject yourselves to your own husbands, that even if any disobey the word, they will be gained without a word through the manner of life of their wives." The phrase "in like manner" refers to the subjection of the household servants to their masters, as described in 2:18. Therefore, as a household servant submits himself to his master, so the wives should subject
themselves to their own husbands. This kind of word is certainly contrary to the emphasis of the so-called women's liberation movement. That movement is against the Bible, for it is against God's ordination in His creation with
respect to male and female. Using Peter's expression (3:7), God created the females weaker vessels. What country would use women as the main fighting force in the army? Females are weaker physically and psychologically. For
this reason, it is easy for women to shed tears, which are often a sign of weakness. Furthermore, it is easy for a female to be troubled in her mind or emotion. All these are signs that the female is a weaker vessel.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of First Peter

Opposition to the "women's liberation movement" (When was the training for 1st Peter held?) is pretty clearly a reflection of a cultural normative belief, although Lee rather boldly uses the Bible to prop up his opinions here. The relationships between husbands and wives and even the restrictions placed upon the sisters within the assembly are at least within the domain of legitimate teaching on the topic.

To read verses like Genesis 3:16 and 1 Peter 3:1 as Biblical injunctions against feminism in general borders on preposterous. These verses clearly relate back to the relationship between husbands and wives, especially the believers. How do they at all implicate a woman's right to seek, for instance, domestic violence, maternity leave, voting rights or equal pay? I think the answer is fairly simply that they do not and Lee was incorrect in such opinions.

I suppose the kindest thing to say is that Lee just didn't really understand women's lib, probably due to his own cultural background. But that's all the more reason he shouldn't have even said anything about it.

I'm certainly not about to hold forth on rocket science or brain surgery since those are topics I know nothing about.

Not that I'm saying that understanding what women want is that difficult
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:17 AM   #18
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YPO:

Did you sleep last night?

Great work. Still, these do not sound like the quote I remember reading and talking about. Let's see, it would have been some time around 1973 or 74, maybe a little earlier, but probably not later than 74. Just by thinking about where we lived at the time.

The quote was concerning Genesis (I think) , and how 'sin and deception entered through woman' and thus women --- blah, blah, blah. We all know the drill by now.

Jane --- any of that time period ring a bell?

YPO, you are the Sherlock Holmes of old quotes! Anyone else?

What a rockin' group of people we are here!!!


FPO

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Old 07-25-2008, 07:01 AM   #19
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Default Poor Brothers !

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We who are used to the church life are truly under God’s blessing, not only spiritually and mentally, but even physically. All of the church people are so healthy because they are under God’s blessing through the church life. Many of the church people can testify that before they came into the church life they were weak and sickly. Many were sick mentally, but after being in the church life they became sober and healthy. This is the blessing. This blessing comes as a result of offering Christ to God through the cross.

Sisters, if you want to be healthy, you need to experience Christ and to offer Him to God through the cross. If you live this way for awhile, you will see how strong you will be and how mentally sober you will become. Every young sister who lives this way will be healthy both mentally and emotionally. Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist - come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God’s blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living - all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ
through the cross.


Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis
The problem I have with what he wrote here is he left out THE BROTHERS!! Poor Brothers! What? They don't suffer from mental problems??? They don't see pyschiatrists? They're automatically emotionally balanced, sober and healthy when they get saved? Please.

Now there is truth as we IMMERSE ourselves in the Presence of God through His Word, dying to self, praying for each other, fellowshipping with each other which includes being FRIENDS in CHRIST..real FRIENDS where we know each other and our families. Where we can confide in one another..we ARE HEALED emotionally, physically and above all spiritually!!

Lee simply said, had a TERRIBLE way of expressing himself!!
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:14 AM   #20
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The problem I have with what he wrote here is he left out THE BROTHERS!!
Yes, I agree. If you are a male or female, Greek or Australian, young or old, tall or short, educated or not, you still need God's healing. This "sisters" speaking was a not-so-subtle control mechanism.

How many bossy brothers were attracted to the 'local church' life, at least in part, because there was a crowd of docile sisters? I shudder to think...Lord, have mercy on us all! Forgive us the error of our ways! Amen, Lord!
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:55 AM   #21
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YPO:

Did you sleep last night?

Great work. Still, these do not sound like the quote I remember reading and talking about. Let's see, it would have been some time around 1973 or 74, maybe a little earlier, but probably not later than 74. Just by thinking about where we lived at the time.

The quote was concerning Genesis (I think) , and how 'sin and deception entered through woman' and thus women --- blah, blah, blah. We all know the drill by now.

Jane --- any of that time period ring a bell?

YPO, you are the Sherlock Holmes of old quotes! Anyone else?

What a rockin' group of people we are here!!!


FPO

Another full disclosure:
I bought the LS set on CD when it came out, so it's easy for me to search that. I've since acquired the other' publisher's CD of Nee's works. After that, I use Google sometimes and then logic plus my understanding of the group's history. (Still looking for a set of the 1977 republication of The Stream if anyone knows how I can get one!)

The quote in Genesis I did see but it failed to make a strong impression upon me, at least as it was printed. It wasn't well worded but it would be a little nit-picky to me to discuss at length whether sin entered first through Adam or Eve. (oops! ) The main emphasis of Lee's teaching on Eve is that she is a type of the counterpart of Christ, which I have no problem with.

Here is what I found along these lines, for what it's worth. If there were other loose talk along these lines, it hasn't been preseverd in the printed texts that I can see:

Quote:
We not only have these verses, but also a great sign in the universe found in Revelation 12:1----the sign of a woman with the sun, the moon, and the stars. In order to move properly in this universe, we have this woman as a great sign. This woman is something related to the church. I do not say that the woman is the church, but that the church is a great part of this woman. If we are to move and behave and act in this universe, we must know this woman.

She originates in Genesis 3. The Bible is a book of women. Satan entered the human race through a woman, and the Lord Jesus also entered the human race through a woman. Eventually, the Bible consummates with the New Jerusalem, which is a female, the bride of Christ. Hallelujah! We will all be a part of that woman. So, we all must know the woman in Revelation 12. She is a biblical woman, a universal woman covering the whole Bible. Strictly speaking, she began in Genesis 2 with Eve, not in Genesis 3, and then proceeds from Genesis 2 to Revelation 22. If you know this woman, you know the signs. She is a very prominent sign. She is a sign for God’s people to know whether they must go on or stop. Because many Christians lack this woman, they don’t know what to do. They have no way to go on. We need a sign, a sign which comes from the fourth-day lights.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis


But I found this little gem while I was looking...

Quote:
This is the basic and logical principle that we must care for: we can never express God or represent God by our own life. Consider your life. Your life is incapable of expressing God; it is only adequate to express yourself. To a certain extent, a woman is not even qualified in life to represent her husband, because her life is not as high as her husband’s. I wonder if the sisters agree with this. At any rate, we all must admit that our natural life disqualifies us from expressing God and representing Him.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:58 AM   #22
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Thanks for the replies. I'm having a good laugh.

Anyway, keep on keepin on.
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:39 AM   #23
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Default All major heresies came from women?

I know for certain I heard WL say this and heard BP and others quote him. There was always an automatic knee jerk reaction by WL and his close circle toward strong women. But then they had the same reaction toward strong men who did not line up with the program.

I cannot ever remember any more than a passing mention that in Christ Jesus there is neither male or female.

This subject or problem is not limited to WL or the LC.

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Old 07-25-2008, 08:45 AM   #24
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YPO:

I have been wondering if it could have been Nee. None of these quotes seem like the exact one I was thinking of, but they all certainly make the case for Lee's feelings about women being waaaay less than men.

So, anything in the Nee stuff?

I remember in one of Nee's books, he expounded on parenting. I wonder what his creds were for that -- he wasn't a parent, and had no training that I know of. Anyway, I remember it said that in order to keep our kids from being puffed up, when they have an accomplishment we should tell them "there are very many children who can do that as well as you can" (obviously, not a direct quote, it is from memory, but it made quite an impression on me.)

Remember Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey? SNL? This one always reminded me of Nee's advice about kids:

Children need encouragement. If a kid gets an answer right, tell him it was a lucky guess. That way he develops a good, lucky feeling.


Maybe it was Nee -----


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Old 07-25-2008, 09:44 AM   #25
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YPO:

I have been wondering if it could have been Nee. None of these quotes seem like the exact one I was thinking of, but they all certainly make the case for Lee's feelings about women being waaaay less than men.

So, anything in the Nee stuff?

I'll have to look into it when I get home.


But Hope also corroborates your memory on the other thread.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:49 AM   #26
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I cannot ever remember any more than a passing mention that in Christ Jesus there is neither male or female.
Boy, does that speak volumes.

Because it's at least as worthy of comment as the other distinctions that are eliminated in Christ...
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:50 AM   #27
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But Hope also corroborates your memory on the other thread.

I saw that --- thanks Hope!

Moderators --- it's getting quite cumbersome. Could we combine the relevant parts of these two threads? Thanks.


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Old 07-25-2008, 10:21 AM   #28
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The other thing I heard that I have been guilty of repeating is that the sisters are in the lead when there is a degraded situation. And I think I made reference to it elsewhere at some point that the thing I noticed was that however much of a position the brothers in the Local Churches held and exercised, I always touched something of more practical enjoyment and expression of Christ in the prayers and singing of the sisters in the meetings. In other words, to my perception, the so-called spiritual brothers were kind of playing at being little kings while the truly spiritual sisters exercised yet more patience and let them play.
Dear YP0534,

Interestingly, until this year, the main thing that gave me shelter when I came under accusation or condemnation due to my gender was the idea about the role of women in degraded situations. It was no small hurdle for this little lady to publish a book. If it had not been for the work of the Holy Spirit in many ways leading me down that path and the support of my husband, son, and another strongly encouraging and determined brother, I might not have made it over that hurdle. Considering my background and what I was accused of in the LC (leading a sisters rebellion) for daring to peep a little, the fact that the book exists is nothing short of a miracle.
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Of course, this is just my perception. The burdens and sufferings of the sisters clearly aren't worthy to be compared with the responsibility of wielding the power of a deputy authority. Yes. There is something upside down about that, isn't there?

I wanted to laugh when I read your satire here, but like all good satire (Jonathan’s Swift’s “Modest Proposal” to solve social ills by eating children for example), the situation behind the satire is too serious for laughter. It did, however, make the point quite well.

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Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
(P.S. full disclosure - knowing what makes a good husband doesn't necessarily make you a good husband, unfortunately)
... but it certainly is a step in the right direction! Thanks for sharing as you have. It means a lot for brothers to speak up with care as you and some others such as aron and Terry have done.


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Old 07-25-2008, 10:27 AM   #29
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I know for certain I heard WL say this and heard BP and others quote him. There was always an automatic knee jerk reaction by WL and his close circle toward strong women. But then they had the same reaction toward strong men who did not line up with the program.

I cannot ever remember any more than a passing mention that in Christ Jesus there is neither male or female.

This subject or problem is not limited to WL or the LC.

Hope
Thanks for sharing this, Hope. In many ways this explains a lot. I knew he spoke like this in public and assumed he did in private, but I don't think I have ever heard this clearly stated before by someone who heard him.

I have been in on the picking-up-the-pieces end of the lives of ex-LC sisters and their families for a number of years now, including my own . I agree with you that this is not only an LC problem, but a much broader one among Christians in general.

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Old 07-25-2008, 10:30 AM   #30
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Good morning!

I have just read and caught up with the posts since yesterday. The first thing I did, YP0534, was note the time you started this thread. I had the same question as FinallyPrettyOkay, did you sleep?? But now that we know you have the ability to search on Lee/Nee's works (wow to that), I can see how you did this.

I note in Hope's post on the other thread that he had heard Lee make the same statement (about sisters and heresies) on numerous occasions. Keep in mind that many times the actual things Lee said in public were modified by the editing process. I have heard this from some who were involved. I have noticed that things I clearly remember hearing in some messages were different when they were published. Hope heard this behind closed doors, I suspect in male company only, which is more insidious.

Quote:
The quote in Genesis I did see but it failed to make a strong impression upon me, at least as it was printed. It wasn't well worded but it would be a little nit-picky to me to discuss at length whether sin entered first through Adam or Eve. (oops! )" --YP0534
Watch it there with that loaded language, bubba. A nit is the egg of a louse. The dictionary says nitpicky is to find insignificant details of something unsatisfactory, often unjustifiably. Hmmm... Okay, I’ll give you a pass this time. A nit-picker isn’t what is needed for this big topic, although getting rid of the eggs might be important. I think I’ll get out my gorilla-picker.

Aah, what a beautiful day it is going to be.

Thankful Jane

Last edited by Thankful Jane; 07-25-2008 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 07-25-2008, 11:21 AM   #31
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Good morning!

I have just read and caught up with the posts since yesterday. The first thing I did, YP0534, was note the time you started this thread. I had the same question as FinallyPrettyOkay, did you sleep?? But now that we know you have the ability to search on Lee/Nee's works (wow to that), I can see how you did this.

I note in Hope's post on the other thread that he had heard Lee make the same statement (about sisters and heresies) on numerous occasions. Keep in mind that many times the actual things Lee said in public were modified by the editing process. I have heard this from some who were involved. I have noticed that things I clearly remember hearing in some messages were different when they were published. Hope heard this behind closed doors, I suspect in male company only, which is more insidious.

Watch it there with that loaded language, bubba. A nit is the egg of a louse. The dictionary says nitpicky is to find insignificant details of something unsatisfactory, often unjustifiably. Hmmm... Okay, I’ll give you a pass this time. A nit-picker isn’t what is needed for this big topic, although getting rid of the eggs might be important. I think I’ll get out my gorilla-picker.

Aah, what a beautiful day it is going to be.

Thankful Jane
Actually, Thankful, I got in trouble in my locality because I got to the point of very closely scrutinizing the differences between what I heard in the training meetings and what was eventually issued on the printed pages. This was back in 1988 and, regardless that there were issues with what Lee actually taught, I can tell you that I grew alarmed that some of the best things I heard him speak were just whittled away to nothing by that funky editing process. One leading brother in my place reassured me that it was nothing to be concerned about and that there was no conspiracy at LSM.

Ha.
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Old 07-25-2008, 12:16 PM   #32
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This is the basic and logical principle that we must care for: we can never express God or represent God by our own life. Consider your life. Your life is incapable of expressing God; it is only adequate to express yourself
. ... At any rate, we all must admit that our natural life disqualifies us from expressing God and representing Him.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis


Well NO WONDER the LSM/LC is in disarray !!! They're reaping what they & Lee sowed!

Quote:
To a certain extent, a woman is not even qualified in life to represent her husband, because her life is not as high as her husband’s.
I wonder how Lee's 2 wives felt about this. They must have suffered something awful...unless they accepted their fate because 1) they were Chinese and 2) they were Lee's wives.

And just so everyone is clear Lee was not a Polygamist. Lee had 8 children by his first wife before she died. He remarried after his wife's death. I don't know if they had any children together.

It would also be interesting to know something about THEM. Anyone know?
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Old 07-27-2008, 08:03 AM   #33
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And, I would hate to see this discussion moved to the Women's Only thread.

When this sort of bigotry exists, everyone needs to hear it. OBW, I really do understand your point. I do not enjoy entering into sort of theological discussions at all --- they usually seem so circular to me. But if you know that this is what women were taught at that place, it becomes relevant.

Control on any level was what WL was all about. All holds barred for the sake of control.
I have been following with interest this thread about Witness Lee’s teaching on women. Some people may wonder why the women in the LC went along with this. In addition to our being enthralled with WL’s grasp of the scriptures, many of us also were very idealistic regarding paying heed to the Word. The verse I Corinthians 11:3, which states that “the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” is an encouragement to women as they put their hope in God and trust that their husband will be under the headship of Christ. I for one believed that the more I submitted to my husband, the more accountable to Christ he would be. However, in daily living this may take quite a long time to be worked out due to fallen human nature. And surely this is why this is a problem not only in the LC.
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Old 07-27-2008, 08:55 AM   #34
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... In addition to our being enthralled with WL’s grasp of the scriptures, many of us also were very idealistic regarding paying heed to the Word. The verse I Corinthians 11:3, which states that “the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” is an encouragement to women as they put their hope in God and trust that their husband will be under the headship of Christ. I for one believed that the more I submitted to my husband, the more accountable to Christ he would be. However, in daily living this may take quite a long time to be worked out due to fallen human nature. And surely this is why this is a problem not only in the LC.
Bookworm,
I remember this being my thought also. (in addition to many other things)
I'm not so certain this is a wrong thought. It just took some awful twists and turns with the cultural things of the LC.

And...we are all "working out our own salvation".

But...I remember being a little pleased that HE was the responsible one before the Lord.
Perhaps even taking a little perverse pleasure in the fact that he was responsible for me!
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:47 PM   #35
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"Consider your life. Your life is incapable of expressing God; it is only adequate to express yourself. To a certain extent, a woman is not even qualified in life to represent her husband, because her life is not as high as her husband’s. I wonder if the sisters agree with this. At any rate, we all must admit that our natural life disqualifies us from expressing God and representing Him."


Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis

Was this quote meant to imply brothers are capable of representing their sister-spouse, but the sister-spouse is not capable of representing their brother-spouse?
If that's the case, I disagree. My marriage is more like a partnership. On most practical matters, my sister-spouse is quite capable speaking on my behalf. On many an ocassion even if she wanted to check with me, our thoughts were the same. Based on the quote from the Life-Study, I would agree on the quote for those couples newly married.

I would pose this question, is it possible for a sister to have more growth spiritually than her husband?

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Old 07-28-2008, 02:33 AM   #36
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The very consideration of a "higher life" or "lower life" in the context of marriage is a ridiculous notion altogether.

It is not that newly married couples don't know each other well enough to know one another's thought. I too would agree with that, as would mostly anyone. But knowing the mind of another doesn't suit Lee's example here. Surely God's thoughts are far above man's.

For Lee, in this statement, it is a woman's created constitution, her "life" which is not as "high," that disqualifies her from being able to be an adequate representative.

It's a lot of superstitious cultural malarkey dressed up in quasi-biblical terminology.

And, yes, of course it's possible for a sister to have more growth spiritually than her husband. My observation while among the Local Church people was that this was usually the case. But Lee probably never considered what this might imply because he merely discounted it as the "abnormal" situation.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:09 PM   #37
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And, yes, of course it's possible for a sister to have more growth spiritually than her husband. My observation while among the Local Church people was that this was usually the case. But Lee probably never considered what this might imply because he merely discounted it as the "abnormal" situation.
I tend to believe each couple is different in their spiritual growth so it would be in error to stereotype.

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Old 08-22-2008, 07:06 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Thankful Jane
"WL said that all the major heresies in church history were introduced by women. You might not hear that the same way a woman would. I was told that sisters cannot get revelation from the Bible. Why? ... because they can be easily deceived, like Eve was. You can't know what it's like to not be able to open your Bible for years and read it without fear that you might be being deceived if you happen to think you see anything in what you read, and that because of a pronouncement that was laid on you by some of Adam's descendants. "

Jane, what was taught by Witness Lee easily applies to brothers too. Anyone can be easily decieved. Which is why we all need prayer when we speak or when we listen, that the enemy won't decieve us. It can be easy to misinterpret or misunderstand something that is spoken.
To say it's geared towards sisters because of the Eve typology, because woman was formed from man, or because women are generally weaker than man is just a smokescreen.
Please read Luke 7:37-50, or Mark 14:3-4 and I make my point. It was a woman who broke a flask of alabaster on Jesus. In Luke 7:50 Jesus says,
"Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

Maybe the real issue among some brothers, but not all, is the fact sisters put Christ firstplace before the ministry. Brothers see the ministry as the way to be overcomers to reign in the New Jerusalem. It's the sisters who just want Jesus!

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Old 08-22-2008, 10:13 PM   #39
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Quote:

This is the basic and logical principle that we must care for: we can never express God or represent God by our own life. Consider your life. Your life is incapable of expressing God; it is only adequate to express yourself
. ... At any rate, we all must admit that our natural life disqualifies us from expressing God and representing Him.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis


Well NO WONDER the LSM/LC is in disarray !!! They're reaping what they & Lee sowed!

Quote:
To a certain extent, a woman is not even qualified in life to represent her husband, because her life is not as high as her husband’s.
I wonder how Lee's 2 wives felt about this. They must have suffered something awful...unless they accepted their fate because 1) they were Chinese and 2) they were Lee's wives.

And just so everyone is clear Lee was not a Polygamist. Lee had 8 children by his first wife before she died. He remarried after his wife's death. I don't know if they had any children together.

It would also be interesting to know something about THEM. Anyone know?

"Sister Lee," so far as I know, is still with us. They had no children together, she probably already being past that age when they were married. She is a dear, sweet sister who poured herself out to take care of Witness. From his testimonies, it seems Witness was quite obedient to her in the matter of what he ate.

Also, Stephen Kaung was remarried not too long ago. His first wife died a number of years back. This sister who married Stephen was simply burdened to take care of him. He didn't want, at first, but then agreed.

Stephen is looking pretty good these days. Because of her burden and care, he has had, and probably will have a few more years of needful ministry among the saints. She also has been burdened for the legacy of his ministry. Consequentially, there has been quite a renovation over at his ministry, in every aspect.

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Old 04-30-2015, 02:57 PM   #40
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Lee contradicts himself in his teaching on women. He seems to indicate that a man in Christ has left the life of the natural man, who cannot please God, and entered the realm of the spiritual man, who can and does please God. But a woman is not afforded the same basis? Women are criticized for natural attributes, but as I see it, the same criticism of the natural man is true of the natural woman. Since there is no male or female IN CHRIST, then, when a woman becomes spiritual by being reborn spiritually, she is the same as a reborn man. Both man and woman should be assessed the same way. It is futile to keep harping on the sins of a woman who is still in the natural, because the focus should be on the spiritual, not the natural. I am a born again woman. I contend for the right to be as spiritual as a man, as able to learn directly from God, His Word and His Spirit, as a man. It is God Who teaches us all our roles in Him, whether as godly men or godly women. But nevertheless we all need no man teach us, for we all have the anointing. To represent that man learns directly from God but that woman needs a third entity -- a man -- to teach her, is NOT SCRIPTURAL. Paul could not have meant that. Surely he was speaking only in the context of speaking out of order in meetings, and somehow that was a problem in that particular early setting. Paul in other places, speaks very highly of certain women ministers.
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Old 04-30-2015, 03:32 PM   #41
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Default Re: Witness Lee's teaching on women

Wow. This is an old thread. But a good one.

And the last point is quite valid.
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Old 05-02-2015, 07:05 AM   #42
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Default Re: Witness Lee's teaching on women

These quotes from Nee & Lee were brought to my attention:

"First Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14, and Revelation 2 all show that God forbids a woman from teaching. Any sect that is started by a woman or headed up by one, or any group in which the woman occupies the same place as the man is highly suspicious. More than half of the heresies in the world have been started by women. For example, the founder of the Christian Scientists was Mary Baker Eddy, and the founder of the Seventh-day Adventists was Mrs. White. When the Bible speaks about Roman Catholicism, it also refers to the teaching of the woman Jezebel." [Watchman Nee, Messages for Building Up New Believers, Vol. 3, Chapter 20, Section 5]

"Paul forbade woman from doing the work of a teacher in 1 Timothy. The ascertaining of truth is a work that belongs to the teacher, and sisters should not do this. Some of the greatest heresies in this world come from women. The founders of the Christian Scientists, the Seventh-day Adventists, etc., have been women. The work of the sisters can be great, but the person of the sisters cannot be great. They should not expose themselves and should not be the ones to discern the truth." [Watchman Nee, Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 58: Spiritual Judgment and Examples of Judgment, Chapter 13, Section 1]

"First Corinthians 14:34 should not be understood in isolation from the rest of the Bible. According to the teaching of the entire New Testament, sisters may prophesy, but they do not have the authority to define doctrines. This must be left to the brothers. Furthermore, it is a fact of history that some of the most serious heresies have come in through women. On the one hand, the sisters should not be prohibited from giving testimonies or edifications in the meetings. On the other hand, the sisters should be careful to stay within the boundary and not presume to teach in the sense of defining doctrine." [Witness Lee, Conclusion of the New Testament, The (Msgs. 205-220), Chapter 2, Section 2 also Witness Lee, Life-Study of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 63, Section 3]

"God's creation was corrupted by Satan through a woman (Gen. 3:1-6). In principle, the church that God redeemed also was corrupted by Satan through a woman. For this reason, God does not permit women to teach in the church (1 Cor. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12; cf. 1 Cor. 11:5). This is because, in principle, all the heresies were brought in by a woman; it was a woman who brought in the leaven. Both the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches believe in their own creeds more than in the Bible. They would twist the word in the Scriptures in order to give the word of the Catholic Church a higher position. When the word in the Scriptures differs from the word of the Catholic Church, they would rather listen to the word of the Church. The Roman Catholic Church is the adulterous woman who brought in heresy. Everything the Bible teaches is centered on Christ, who is signified by the fine flour in the parable. However, the Catholic Church as the evil woman has mixed things other than Christ, corrupted things, into the teaching of the Bible." [Witness Lee, What the Kingdom Is to the Believers, Chapter 9, Section 2]
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Old 05-02-2015, 09:42 AM   #43
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"First Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14, and Revelation 2 all show that God forbids a woman from teaching. Any sect that is started by a woman or headed up by one, or any group in which the woman occupies the same place as the man is highly suspicious. More than half of the heresies in the world have been started by women.
Let's think about the converse/corollaries to these statements ...

Then the other half of the heresies were started by men.

Any sect started by a Chinese man or headed up by one is highly suspicious.
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:26 AM   #44
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"Sometimes I think that the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister." - RK, current voice of the Blendeds.
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:32 AM   #45
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"First Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14, and Revelation 2 all show that God forbids a woman from teaching. Any sect that is started by a woman or headed up by one, or any group in which the woman occupies the same place as the man is highly suspicious. More than half of the heresies in the world have been started by women.
Obscene ... but Biblical.
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:37 AM   #46
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"Sometimes I think that the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister." - RK, current voice of the Blendeds.
Hmmmm, it sounds like Ron wouldn't have gotten along well with Nee's mentor (M.E. Barber).
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:42 AM   #47
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Let's think about the converse/corollaries to these statements ...

Then the other half of the heresies were started by men.

Any sect started by a Chinese man or headed up by one is highly suspicious.
I had the exact same thought. Both Nee and Lee had a habit of employing faulty logic. In order for them to make this type of argument, the first thing that should have been done is for them both to admit that men also teach heresy and therefore they shouldn't be teaching.
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Old 05-02-2015, 04:03 PM   #48
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"Sometimes I think that the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister." - RK, current voice of the Blendeds.
Is there a bigger dope on the face of the earth than Ron Kangas?
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Old 05-02-2015, 04:05 PM   #49
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Hmmmm, it sounds like Ron wouldn't have gotten along well with Nee's mentor (M.E. Barber).
When it comes to "raising up" the brothers and "perfecting them" by using public rebukes and shaming, a.k.a. "those weekly ice baths," the recovery is altogether unique. Even though they have no scriptural justification for how their leadership operates, they do have ... as their "founding mother" ... a dominant sister ... a missionary from a degraded denomination ... to vindicate their actions.

How in the world do they reconcile these pernicious anomalies?
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Old 05-02-2015, 04:05 PM   #50
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Hmmmm, it sounds like Ron wouldn't have gotten along well with Nee's mentor (M.E. Barber).
What about getting along with his wife? She was a dozy ... and a definite balance for Ron. But she didn't keep his head out of the clouds.

Given that it's no wonder RK made that statement about sisters. That and the fact that the Bible treats women like second class citizens, in the least, property, in the most, and Eve in the worst. Like Paul mentioned in 1st Tim. 2:14,

1Co_7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
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Old 05-02-2015, 05:00 PM   #51
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When it comes to "raising up" the brothers and "perfecting them" by using public rebukes and shaming, a.k.a. "those weekly ice baths," the recovery is altogether unique. Even though they have no scriptural justification for how their leadership operates, they do have ... as their "founding mother" ... a dominant sister ... a missionary from a degraded denomination ... to vindicate their actions.

How in the world do they reconcile these pernicious anomalies?
The irony is sad. It's probably safe to say that there would be no LC movement if it weren't for M.E. Barber, as she is the one who supposedly "perfected" Nee. I've heard it said within the LC that Nee's ability to handle the "rebuking" of M.E. Barber is what set him apart from all his peers. Nee and Lee should have both admitted the LC is a church with a "founding mother". Like Ohio stated, the LC could be viewed as suspicious by standard of Nee's own words "Any sect that is started by a woman or headed up by one, or any group in which the woman occupies the same place as the man is highly suspicious."
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Old 05-02-2015, 05:14 PM   #52
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What about getting along with his wife? She was a dozy ... and a definite balance for Ron. But she didn't keep his head out of the clouds.
IMO, Ron's main problem is his inability to accept constructive criticism. He is the type who cannot accept blame, and I don't think he is able to admit to being wrong in any way. He has gone beyond his blended peers and insulated himself from all criticism. He calls the brother whom he considers to be his arch nemesis a "man of death". If he says that he considers "spiritual sisters" worse than those he would label as "rebellious", then I'm scared to know what he really thinks of women.
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Old 05-02-2015, 07:09 PM   #53
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IMO, Ron's main problem is his inability to accept constructive criticism. He is the type who cannot accept blame, and I don't think he is able to admit to being wrong in any way. He has gone beyond his blended peers and insulated himself from all criticism. He calls the brother whom he considers to be his arch nemesis a "man of death". If he says that he considers "spiritual sisters" worse than those he would label as "rebellious", then I'm scared to know what he really thinks of women.
We've had many a post about his views of women. None are good.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:19 PM   #54
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IMO, Ron's main problem is his inability to accept constructive criticism. He is the type who cannot accept blame, and I don't think he is able to admit to being wrong in any way. He has gone beyond his blended peers and insulated himself from all criticism. He calls the brother whom he considers to be his arch nemesis a "man of death". If he says that he considers "spiritual sisters" worse than those he would label as "rebellious", then I'm scared to know what he really thinks of women.
Seems to me the thread should be renamed Ron Kangas' teaching on sisters. Something I cannot say about all the messages I have heard Witness Lee speak, but brother Ron, I cannot say I haven't heard a message when he isn't denigrating sisters.
I think Ron may have a problem with spiritual sisters because they tend to be Christ-centered instead of ministry-centered. That alone results in Christ versus Religion.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:46 PM   #55
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Ron may have a problem with spiritual sisters because they tend to be Christ-centered instead of ministry-centered...
Oooh... THAT cuts pretty close to the problem, no? They love Christ instead of "christandthechurch", ministry-style. And then they're wide open to love their neighbors, which might well involve putting the needs of those neighbors before the needs of the Mother Church. And so on, as religious organization takes a back seat to love. Big problem, here - can't have that, not for a minute.

So "spirituality" becomes a big shibboleth. No, we want Organization Men (and Women), though and through. They are here for the Lord's Move. No loving your neighbors, or that spiritual stuff.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:59 PM   #56
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Oooh... THAT cuts pretty close to the problem, no? They love Christ instead of "christandthechurch", ministry-style. And then they're wide open to love their neighbors, which might well involve putting the needs of those neighbors before the needs of the Mother Church. And so on, as religious organization takes a back seat to love. Big problem, here - can't have that, not for a minute.

So "spirituality" becomes a big shibboleth. No, we want Organization Men (and Women), though and through. They are here for the Lord's Move. No loving your neighbors, or that spiritual stuff.
There is a lot of truth to this. From what I have seen there are many LC sisters who care primarily about practical needs, and of course this gets stomped on by leaders and brothers such as Ron. It's probably safe to say that some are just along for the ride, supporting their husbands and trying to make the best of things. Nevertheless, any hint of "spirituality" is seen as a threat to brothers.
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Old 05-04-2015, 04:42 AM   #57
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Obscene ... but Biblical.
Biblical? The Bible actually says this with sufficient clarity that any other position is in contradiction of the Bible?

No matter how strongly some feel about the issues of women teaching in full or even limited capacities, some do not see it the same way and can point to passages that seem to contradict, so it is not so clear. And I don't think that it says anything about "more than half the heresies" being started by women.

So "biblical" does not seem to fit very well.

I would suggest that the way it is bandied about by some, making statements like Lee and RK have, that the lack of love in their rhetoric makes them "not biblical" no matter how right they think they are on the subject.
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Old 05-04-2015, 05:28 AM   #58
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Seems to me the thread should be renamed Ron Kangas' teaching on sisters. Something I cannot say about all the messages I have heard Witness Lee speak, but brother Ron, I cannot say I haven't heard a message when he isn't denigrating sisters.
I think Ron may have a problem with spiritual sisters because they tend to be Christ-centered instead of ministry-centered. That alone results in Christ versus Religion.
Ron Kangas's views of women seem to be steeped in ancient Chinese cultural norms passed down from Nee and Lee. Perhaps these oppressive ideas are at the root of the marital problems which so plague the LCM.

One time in the crowded foyer of Cleveland's meeting hall, my elder was furious with me for a personal decision my wife and I made. He was screaming at me, just inches from my face, amidst the bustle of saints during break time. He made the stinging accusation, "can't you control your wife?!?"

I paused for a few milliseconds and then responded, "it's against the law to control my wife." Then I turned and walked out the lobby door. It was so tense, that a simple gesture like wiping the sweat off my brow would have resulted in a Pacquio barrage -- just a 30 second video clip into the teachings and practices of "Witness Lee's teaching on women," and it's effect on his protege Titus Chu, and one of his students.
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Old 05-04-2015, 06:27 AM   #59
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What about getting along with his wife? She was a dozy ... and a definite balance for Ron. But she didn't keep his head out of the clouds.

Given that it's no wonder RK made that statement about sisters. That and the fact that the Bible treats women like second class citizens, in the least, property, in the most, and Eve in the worst. Like Paul mentioned in 1st Tim. 2:14,

1Co_7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
I was in a church meeting with Ron once in which he said that he needed to make an adjustment with his wife. After accomplishing the task the Lord seemed to ask him "was that I making the adjustment or was it you." Strangely he didn't answer the question but I did of course to myself. Susan or is it Sue had a mind of her own. I'm sure there were other adjustment made thru the years on both sides.

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Old 05-04-2015, 11:47 AM   #60
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One time in the crowded foyer of Cleveland's meeting hall, my elder was furious with me for a personal decision my wife and I made. He was screaming at me, just inches from my face, amidst the bustle of saints during break time. He made the stinging accusation, "can't you control your wife?!?"
The elder was completely out of line. As I had posted on Facebook this past weekend,

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Ephesians 5:25
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:00 PM   #61
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Oooh... THAT cuts pretty close to the problem, no? They love Christ instead of "christandthechurch", ministry-style. And then they're wide open to love their neighbors, which might well involve putting the needs of those neighbors before the needs of the Mother Church. And so on, as religious organization takes a back seat to love. Big problem, here - can't have that, not for a minute.
It's been my opinion brothers such as BP an RG were utterly offended by Jane Anderson because she as many sisters are Christ first, marriage & family second, and maybe ministry third. I have considered there was shepherding among the sisters on marriage and family according to Christ. Not according to Lee's ministry.
So when BP heard about the so-called sister's rebellion in Anaheim (which I believe was really a counterattack on Max for his restaurant confrontation with Phillip Lee), in BP's mind it justified the actions taken as many of us have read in The Thread of Gold.
My impression of sisters married to brothers who place ministry before the marriage/family, you might see
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Old 05-08-2015, 09:00 PM   #62
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...It is futile to keep harping on the sins of a woman who is still in the natural, because the focus should be on the spiritual, not the natural. I am a born again woman.
The "sins of a woman" issue, more seriously, nullify the death of Jesus Christ as atonement for the sins of mankind. This is heresy. The death of Jesus Christ atoned for all sin, including Eve; including the sin of all men and women. To me this is the great error of many teachings about women.


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Old 01-08-2016, 06:17 AM   #63
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"First Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14, and Revelation 2 all show that God forbids a woman from teaching. Any sect that is started by a woman or headed up by one, or any group in which the woman occupies the same place as the man is highly suspicious. More than half of the heresies in the world have been started by women. For example, the founder of the Christian Scientists was Mary Baker Eddy, and the founder of the Seventh-day Adventists was Mrs. White. When the Bible speaks about Roman Catholicism, it also refers to the teaching of the woman Jezebel." [Watchman Nee, Messages for Building Up New Believers, Vol. 3, Chapter 20, Section 5]

"Paul forbade woman from doing the work of a teacher in 1 Timothy. The ascertaining of truth is a work that belongs to the teacher, and sisters should not do this. Some of the greatest heresies in this world come from women. The founders of the Christian Scientists, the Seventh-day Adventists, etc., have been women. The work of the sisters can be great, but the person of the sisters cannot be great. They should not expose themselves and should not be the ones to discern the truth." [Watchman Nee, Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 58: Spiritual Judgment and Examples of Judgment, Chapter 13, Section 1]
This assessment is contradictory coming from someone who was saved, trained, heavily influenced by, and who worked closely with women such as Madame Guyon, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Elizabeth Fischbacher, Miss Groves, Margaret Barber, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Mary E. McDonough, and Ruth Lee. Among others.

If women had constitutional or dispositional incapacity of exerting functional influence, then why the admittedly great influence, here, upon the speaker, who then promptly denied them and their role?

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... Since there is no male or female IN CHRIST, then, when a woman becomes spiritual by being reborn spiritually, she is the same as a reborn man. Both man and woman should be assessed the same way. It is futile to keep harping on the sins of a woman who is still in the natural, because the focus should be on the spiritual, not the natural. I am a born again woman. I contend for the right to be as spiritual as a man, as able to learn directly from God, His Word and His Spirit, as a man. It is God Who teaches us all our roles in Him, whether as godly men or godly women. But nevertheless we all need no man teach us, for we all have the anointing. To represent that man learns directly from God but that woman needs a third entity -- a man -- to teach her, is NOT SCRIPTURAL. Paul could not have meant that. Surely he was speaking only in the context of speaking out of order in meetings, and somehow that was a problem in that particular early setting. Paul in other places, speaks very highly of certain women ministers.
To me, key to understanding Paul's word here (on women functioning in church) was that he was addressing it within his present social context. To Paul, freedom in Christ Jesus did not mean an abandonment of society's mores and constraints. A slave and a master were brothers, and equal before God as redeemed and revived sinners, but they still must heed social conventions. Internally, and eternally, they were "in Christ", but externally and temporally they still were slave and master, with the unchanged expectations of those roles. Paul merely counseled, "Do all unto the Lord." Likewise men and women. In Christ there was no man or woman, but in the flesh one still must respect God's sovereign arrangement. The established and accepted social order must be respected.

But God's sovereign arrangement, circa 50 or 60 AD Palestine, was not once and for all. Slavery as an institution ended, and eventually women were recognized as having the same personhood as men. Except in certain churches, of course. There, it is still first-century Palestinian social arrangements.

And the glaring incongruity of it all is seen in the disparity between the words and actions of Watchman Nee; what he actually did, versus what he proclaimed as his 'truth'.
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Old 01-08-2016, 06:43 AM   #64
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But God's sovereign arrangement, circa 50 or 60 AD Palestine, was not once and for all. Slavery as an institution ended, and eventually women were recognized as having the same personhood as men. Except in certain churches, of course. There, it is still first-century Palestinian social arrangements.
While I agree with your analysis, this idea that the ways of the time was "God's sovereign arrangement" is an overlay that we Christians feel the need to put on everything. Is it not sufficient to state that we are commanded to live peaceably within our environment and then note that the environment has not always been perfect? Why do we feel the need to justify the way things are as being ordained by God?

Unless we are saying that the fact that God ordained to remove his absolute control on a temporal basis is effectively God's ordination of how things are. That God restrains judgment is different from saying God ordains something.

Not saying that whether or not women should be allowed to have position is worthy of judgment. Just generally saying that God is clearly withholding judgment on evil in the world. Do we say that God is ordaining the evil? Or do we rather say that God uses our living within evil to work in us?

Just asking. This need for claiming God's ordination on everything is something that has been bothering me for some time.
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Old 01-08-2016, 06:48 AM   #65
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This need for claiming God's ordination on everything is something that has been bothering me for some time.
I was just using a familiar trope. Probably could have phrased it better.
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:53 AM   #66
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In the quote by Nee in post #63, he says that a woman's work can be great, but her person cannot be great. Does this mean that a man's person can be great?

I'm reminded of the gospel passage where the disciples were arguing over which ones were great (Luke 9:46; also 22:24). Did Watchman Nee think that if he wins the argument, and dominates the assembly, that he'll then be great? That once Leland Wang was out of the way, and the women co-workers 'knew their place', that he'd then be top of the heap? It seems to be implied, in the quote. The apostle of the age, and God's deputy, were sure to follow.
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Old 10-04-2017, 04:52 PM   #67
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I must agree wholeheartedly with Unreg above when she disputes the idea that a woman must learn from a man in spiritual matters! How absurd is this?? Did Mary need a man around to receive revelation from Gabriel? We all know that she did not.

I have been a Christian for many decades and the LORD has been so gracious to me, speaking to me in my heart. How sweet it is to receive revelation directly from our LORD! And we ALL do! We are all fully able to receive that rhema and to enjoy His Presence without any other mediator--both male and female.

We women are under headship here in the Earthly realm but when we pray and fellowship with Him, we are already seated in the heavenlies--and there is NO curse from the Fall there and, therefore, no need for headship or any lessening of our role. Praise the Lord!
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Old 10-05-2017, 02:25 PM   #68
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The Lord has given women a wonderful, truly equal role with men. It's not their fault that men cannot see it. To them has been given the greater position of service so that their reward may be great. Hold your heads high, women! The Lord has given you the better portion.

"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world." Lord, open our eyes!
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:38 PM   #69
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Unreg >"...no need for headship ...."

What a travesty. Of course, there is a need, but more importantly a fact, of headship and authority in the universe.

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Old 10-08-2017, 01:18 AM   #70
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Unreg >"...no need for headship ...."

What a travesty. Of course, there is a need, but more importantly a fact, of headship and authority in the universe.

Drake
Where was the headship when Lee installed son Philip, the "unspiritual chef", as his office manager at LSM?

Where was the headship when Lee dunned the LC members for cash for his son Timothy's new motor home business?

People who insist on headship often have none themselves. Their desire to manipulate and control is an attempt to cover their lack of self-control. Their need for temporal power reveals an absence of spiritual reality, of true power.

"Don't you know that I have the power to kill you?" said Pilate (John 19:10). That's the kind of power wielded in churches like the LC. Fear-based power. It isn't real - reject it. It has no authority over you.

The real authority is to forgive, to heal, to love in repeated, consistent action. We occasionally saw that, furtively, in the margins of the LC, among the so-called small potatoes, but rarely if ever in the center, at the supposed locus of power.
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Old 10-08-2017, 04:35 AM   #71
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-1

>""Don't you know that I have the power to kill you?" said Pilate (John 19:10). That's the kind of power wielded in churches like the LC. Fear-based power. "

What a silly notion.
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Old 10-08-2017, 07:28 AM   #72
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-1

>""Don't you know that I have the power to kill you?" said Pilate (John 19:10). That's the kind of power wielded in churches like the LC. Fear-based power. "

What a silly notion.
Silly notion? Are you serious?

Read again the conversation between John Ingalls and Titus Chu in STTIL and also others in the book.

There were definite threats hung over JI's head letting him definitely know that they had the power to kill him, and his ministry. John had to learn the difficult lesson that it is far better to fear God rather than man.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:20 PM   #73
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""Don't you know that I have the power to kill you?" said Pilate (John 19:10). That's the kind of power wielded in churches like the LC. Fear-based power. "
Let me explicate my "silly notion". People believed into Jesus, but they were afraid of the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin had the power to put them out of the social group, the synagogue. See John 12:42 &c. . .

The LC creates a social group, the "church life". You get job references, job placement (many of us have). You get housing. You get your social group. They are your "true family"; you call them 'brother' and 'sister'. You usually marry someone in the group. Everything in the group is Us; outside is Them.

All this is based on group allegiance. Then the maximum boss does a nutty. What to do? Do you stand up and say what is right, and get put out? Or do you keep your mouth shut, and go on?

That's what I meant by fear-based power. Perhaps Pilate seemed like an extreme example, "silly" to you. But fear-based power is the same, whether it has social stigma/shame/ostracism behind it, or actual violence. Fear is fear. Control is control.

It's not that silly once you grasp what is going on. Temporal, earthly power hides the lack of actual reality.

Jesus took the shame, the humiliation. He never lorded it over anyone. They repeatedly tried to push Him to the forefront, but He repeatedly withdrew. His destiny was clear.

What happens to believers is they become befuddled, and think that somehow earthly greatness is equivalent to heavenly greatness. Jesus was clear: it's not.

That's why I thought the quote by Nee (post # 63) - "Women cannot be great in their persons" - was so interesting. Because it seemed to imply that men, by contrast, can be great in their persons. Which is not following Jesus at all. And once you buy into the illusion, that you're under a great man, the fear (from inadequacy/powerlessness/shame) behind that illusion starts to control you. The shame is transferred. Jesus took the shame away, but the 'great man' transfers his shame to you.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:26 PM   #74
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What is super silly is the notion the local churches wield power like Pilate.... to kill people.

Now excommunication is a serious matter but it us not the same thing and your inability to distinguish them will trip you up.

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Old 10-08-2017, 05:28 PM   #75
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-1

What is super silly is the notion the local churches wield power like Pilate.... to kill people.

Now excommunication is a serious matter but it us not the same thing and your inability to distinguish them will trip you up.

Drake
Fear is fear, manipulation is manipulation, control is control. In Pilate's case it is naked, in Lee's case it is cloaked. Subtle is more dangerous. In the subtle case, the prey often doesn't see they're being manipulated. If the host is oblivious, the parasite lives on.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:30 PM   #76
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Fear is fear, manipulation is manipulation, control is control. In Pilate's case it is naked, in Lee's case it is cloaked. Subtle is more dangerous.
It's just your imagination . No comparison.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:32 PM   #77
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It's just your imagination. No comparison.
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nc2GSjmsYQ
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:25 PM   #78
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What is super silly is the notion the local churches wield power like Pilate.... to kill people.

Now excommunication is a serious matter but it us not the same thing and your inability to distinguish them will trip you up.

Drake
What Lee and his future Blendeds did to John Ingalls and others was, in some ways, worse than murder. They destroyed their reputations among the only people that John and others cared about. John and others lived and served the local churches. That was their complete life. Lee and his cadre of blendeds robbed them of that.

Something you refuse to admit.
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:38 PM   #79
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"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nc2GSjmsYQ
And what a great line by Dorothy ...

"If you were really great and powerful, you would keep your promises!"
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:39 PM   #80
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Fear is fear, manipulation is manipulation, control is control. In Pilate's case it is naked, in Lee's case it is cloaked. Subtle is more dangerous..
A snake in the open is better than a snake in the grass.
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Old 10-09-2017, 04:11 AM   #81
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And what a great line by Dorothy ...

"If you were really great and powerful, you would keep your promises!"
Then she tells him, "You're a very bad man." He replies "Oh no, my dear. I'm a very good man. I'm a very bad Wizard."
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:31 PM   #82
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Unreg said: "We women are under headship here in the Earthly realm but when we pray and fellowship with Him, we are already seated in the heavenlies--and there is NO curse from the Fall there and, therefore, no need for headship or any lessening of our role. Praise the Lord!" To which our brother Drake replied that there would always be a need for headship in the universe.

Well, let's think about this. When we are in prayer and praise and our spirit soars to unite and be one with our Lord to enjoy Him, is any kind of Earthly headship needed? Isn't the very fact that we are in the presence of the Lord and HIS headship all that is needed to provide any covering? In Christ, there is freedom--for all. Merged with our true Head (the Lord), would anyone need any other headship? I think not. So I would say that Unreg is right--women need no covering or headship in their intimate time with the Lord--for there is neither male nor female in Christ. True fellowship causes us to soar above this realm. The curse of the Fall is only present here on Earth and in this physical life. The more union with Christ we have, the less ALL of us are impacted by the curse--which included headship for women and, really, even for men. Of course, Unreg was referring to male headship over women on Earth. None of us will ever leave--or desire to leave--the eternal and glorious headship of Our Bridegroom.

Yes, praise the Lord for this!
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