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Old 07-17-2017, 11:36 AM   #1
QOTSA
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Default LC turned me into a leftist

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I was involved in LC in the Midwest for a good 4 years. I was gained on campus when I was a freshman. Was very active on campus. Been to all training and conferences I could afford to go to. Loved spending time with the saints. Dropped out of all other extracurriculars by the end of those 4 years. Lost almost all other contacts as well.

Looking back I've never been that depressed or anxious in any other situations. The amount of abuse and stress I was under- kinda unreal to even think about it. Having lived with a racist/white supremacist roommate who was the personification of passive aggressiveness makes everything so much easier in comparison. I'm in grad school studying psychology because, one, I really want to figure out what's wrong with me and second, I'm so intrigued by social psychology, especially theories on cults and trauma. I made it my area of focus and I love what I do. I guess in a way I have to thank LC for that, haha.

Been in behavioral therapy for two years and I can't praise it enough. Therapy saved my life. It rebuilt me as a person from thought processes to actions. I was so damaged and biased and narrow minded I would literally gasp reading some of my old journals from LC years. I didn't sound like a real person; everything on those pages sounded very manufactured and... fake. I was so lost that I didn't feel safe to be honest with myself even, what a tragedy.

Going back to the title. I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years. The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups... Just unbelievable.

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways. And I don't have to figure everyone out, I can just accept people as who they are. My friends are amazing, I love my school, and I'm doing everything I can to help out my community and protect those that are marginalized. When we take care of those that are most vulnerable, we will all be better off.

That'll be it for today. If you've read till this far, I appreciate your attention and time. Much love to you all. Take care.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

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The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups...
You hit the nail on the head... I do think they vilify Christianity more than they do the LGBTQ community. They have no clue how to point people to Christ.

Thanks for sharing...Blessings and God's Love envelop you leading you to all Truth
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:21 PM   #3
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You hit the nail on the head... I do think they vilify Christianity more than they do the OH BTW community. They have no clue how to point people to Christ.

Thanks for sharing...Blessings and God's Love envelop you leading you to all Truth
Thanks for responding! Appreciate it.
And yes, I totally agree. The LC vilify Christianity more than any other communities. Which is so strange... But totally fits into a cult's motives.

Thanks again, countmeworthy. God bless.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:02 PM   #4
aron
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

Bateson's theory of the double bind was easily one of the most liberating things that I ever read. Godspeed you on your journey.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

Welcome, QOTSA

You may be interested in several books written by a woman former member, Jane Carole Anderson. Her first book was The Thread of Gold and is her testimony beginning in her childhood through her exit from the LC. Her newest book is A Woman of Chayil [khah’-yil] which, in Jane's words, "takes an in-depth look at a huge, long-term sin in the body of Christ. This hidden spiritual cancer in the church has been growing for almost two millennia in the wrong relationships that exist between Christian women and Christian men."

In addition, Jane says:
"Let me be clear that I do not consider myself to be a feminist. Rather, I am a free woman in Christ. I have written this book from my perspective as a Christian woman who spent many years in enabling silence, having been subdued and suppressed by numerous Christian men who believed their wrong treatment of me was according to God and His Word. They believed that the Bible they held in their hands supported and even mandated their dominating behavior."

Jane made many of the observations you have made, but takes a different path which you may find interesting as well as biblical.

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jane-Ca...ole%20Anderson

Again, welcome--
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

QOTSA,

Thank you so much for taking the leap from "long time lurker" to "first time poster". If your first post is any indication, you will quickly become a valued contributor to our little forum. Please consider registering for the forum by shooting an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and include your desired UserName (I don't think anybody has take QOTSA yet!)

I had to chuckle just a bit at the title of your opening post. Of course I wasn't chuckling when I read "I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years". It's very sad and a shame to the Lord that any Christian group or association could foster an atmosphere of unrighteousness or injustice, especially to women and children. I'm sure you've been through some of the numerous threads where the truth has come out about the abject unrighteousness and injustice perpetrated upon sisters/women in the "Ministry Office" of the Living Stream Ministry. No public apology has come forth. Though Witness Lee and his son Phillip are now dead, many of the men who promoted and exalted them are still in leadership positions in the movement.

I did want to make a quick comment about the wider issue of being "turned into a leftist". If the scriptures are any gauge, God is neither "left" nor "right". If the record of the Gospels are true and accurate, Jesus Christ was neither "left" nor "right". Maybe the jury is still out on the Holy Spirit, but since He was sent by the Father and speaks only what the Lord Jesus tells him to speak....I'll go out on a limb and say the same thing about Him.

Seriously though, I do find it a huge failure and shame to 21st century Christians that the church in general is not widely considered as a promoter and supporter of social justice. Please understand I am not referring to the most "political" of issues per se, but only to the raw injustices perpetrated upon the most vulnerable in our society. God's people should be the first to come to the aid of these people, and not be heaping condemnation upon them. The Lord Jesus spent at least as much time healing the sick, rebuking the hypocrites and loving on the scored and outcast as he did preaching and teaching.

I will leave you with Psalm 89:14:

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.
-
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:16 PM   #7
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It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways.
This part of tells me you are going to be okay.

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Take care.
You too. God speed.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:49 PM   #8
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Thanks for responding! Appreciate it.
And yes, I totally agree. The LC vilify Christianity more than any other communities. Which is so strange... But totally fits into a cult's motives.

Thanks again, countmeworthy. God bless.
I appreciate your testimony about the LC. I was involved in the church for 13 years decades ago [ see my signature line.] How long were you involved with the LC? How recently did you drop out? I'm interested in knowing to what degree it remains like it was when I was in it.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:30 AM   #10
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Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!
Hey Ladies,
I am a woman as well. I don't consider myself a feminist.. just feminine. I am compassionate person. I try very had not to be judgmental but I am cautious of controlling people. I am especially cautious of religious people!!

God bless you and may He use you both / us mightily for His Kingdom. He has our backs!

Carol
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:28 AM   #11
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

The Old Testament is full of calls for social justice--usually concerning justice and care for the vulnerable (widows and orphans, who in those days were extremely vulnerable).

The Church can and should be involved in this effort. How can we say we care about people if we are not willing to help them with their most practical needs? Certainly everyone's spiritual needs are the long-term priority, but often their physical and emotional needs are the short-term priority--and sometimes the best way to affect the long term need is to focus on the short-term one.

I'm not for "back room and brass-knuckle" politics. But I think there are appropriate ways we can be involved and I think doing so gives glory to God and advances his Kingdom.

I think God is always pleased when we selflessly help "the least of these."
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: LC turned me into a leftist

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Hey Ladies,
I am a woman as well. I don't consider myself a feminist.. just feminine. I am compassionate person. I try very had not to be judgmental but I am cautious of controlling people. I am especially cautious of religious people!!

God bless you and may He use you both / us mightily for His Kingdom. He has our backs!

Carol
LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:23 PM   #13
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LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!
Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially. Boy... has he been SILENT on our very honest, forthright positive experience Bojobox and I had in San Diego.

I don't know why the Holy Spirit decided to shed Light on the church in San Diego. He is up to something. This conversation was GOD'S DOING. He used Bojobox to bring our experience to the forefront for a reason.

God bless Evangelical anyway. The LORD knows His sheep. Nothing is too difficult for GOD to do. The true believers, the true church, the BRIDE of Christ is NOT THE LSM. And He is going to purge the LSM. Don't know when or how. WAIT FOR IT.

Blessings to you.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:49 PM   #14
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Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially. Boy... has he been SILENT on our very honest, forthright positive experience Bojobox and I had in San Diego.

I don't know why the Holy Spirit decided to shed Light on the church in San Diego. He is up to something. This conversation was GOD'S DOING. He used Bojobox to bring our experience to the forefront for a reason.

God bless Evangelical anyway. The LORD knows His sheep. Nothing is too difficult for GOD to do. The true believers, the true church, the BRIDE of Christ is NOT THE LSM. And He is going to purge the LSM. Don't know when or how. WAIT FOR IT.

Blessings to you.
Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.
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Old 07-18-2017, 06:39 PM   #15
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Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego,
Sure you can brother. You choose not to and that is your prerogative. People who I have shared how it was when I got saved and experienced the church life respond positively. They can't imagine our meetings, our fellowship from home to home. YOU CAN! YOU CAN IDENTIFY. But because we are no longer a part of the tumbleweed the LC became, and you love and are loyal to the LSM, you won't comment on our experiences. I am glad you have been reading them though. Thank you.

You wrote:
Quote:
I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.
Briefly, women in the LC/LSM have no leadership roles. Sure they can 'prophesy', which we used to call 'testify' and play the piano, be in charge of 'childrens meeting', cook, clean and fellowship. That's all I will say about that... no need to discuss it.

As for reaching the LGBTQXYZORST, very, very, VERY few Christians know how to reach them. Why do you think the LBGBTQ community has gone 'viral'? I bet JESUS knows how to reach them. It's a piece of cake to HIM. Nothing is too hard for HIM. But He gave us authority and power, Wisdom, Revelation, and Insight on how to reach them. And we don't know how to use our God given anointing in reaching them. The 'law of sin and death' surely can't! It can't reach the heterosexual person. Ya think the law of sin and death is going to fare better with the LGBTQ community?

Hmmm.. I wonder how Jesus would reach them.

Maybe He would talk about Jeremiah 17:9 to them.. explaining how “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Perhaps He would explain what it is to be unequally yoked and the danger of being unequally yoked. And His Loving Kindness, compassion, and Love would convict them, not condemn them. Maybe He would tell them all what David went through and how he prayed for God to create in him a clean heart. Who knows what Jesus would say to pull them to HIMSELF.

Quote:
In the LC I know, there are no dress codes,
Not anymore??? Oh. Good to know.

Quote:
husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged,
Oh yeah.. and they will make it known!!! I remember a newlywed couple in SAN DIEGO, who were 'counseled' to stop sitting together at the meetings.

Quote:
However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.
Yep.. religion always seems to rear its ugly head... even in the early church!

Quote:
Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity.
There are so many 'flavors' and 'varieties' in Christianity.. from the luke warm to the ice cold.

Quote:
I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words.
I've seen that too. I had a neighbor once who did not cut her hair. I went to her 'church' once. All the women had their hair in a bun. Men sat on one side. Women on the other.

Quote:
the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating".
What's the divorce rate in the LC/LSM? I know it's not as low as you may think it is. Reading about the marital problems caused by the LSM teachings is pretty sad. Even if they remain married, there are a lot of unhappy married couples in the LC/LSM ministry.

Quote:
Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating.
I would not know.

Quote:
Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there.
Me either.

Quote:
The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.
Yeppers. I witnessed it first hand.

Blessings to you Evangelical.
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Old 07-18-2017, 06:53 PM   #16
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Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially.
No, no ... CMW no one is ignoring you, at least not me. You brighten my day with all your smilies.

And besides, it's better to be ignored, than constantly insulted by some of the guys around here.

You and I are of the few who are willing to admit the LC's were once a great place to be.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:51 PM   #17
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You wrote: Briefly, women in the LC/LSM have no leadership roles. Sure they can 'prophesy', which we used to call 'testify' and play the piano, be in charge of 'childrens meeting', cook, clean and fellowship. That's all I will say about that... no need to discuss it.
I appreciate you inviting me to comment on San Diego, I enjoyed what you wrote about the positive experiences.

Sometimes I envy the children's meeting, they get to play games, cook, run around and have fun. Why can't a man do that? Because he'll be accused of being a pdf file, that's why.

I don't really buy the claims of "oppression" and "sexism" because "women can't be leaders". Not exactly a "third world problem". I think it is very modern American, and acceptable today, but is it scriptural, does it align with early church practice? The Catholic and Orthodox church says no! And many others, until they were infiltrated with "the worlds" idea of how family should be, which includes, two lesbians and a test tube baby. Am I right? "oppression", "sexism", this is an American thing, because I have traveled Asia, and women are quite happy letting men have the leadership role in church. Not all women want to be leaders. Not all women agree with you. They are quite happy letting the men lead at church, and for sure they will "rule the roost" at home.


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Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
As for reaching the LGBTQXYZORST, very, very, VERY few Christians know how to reach them. Why do you think the LBGBTQ community has gone 'viral'? I bet JESUS knows how to reach them. It's a piece of cake to HIM. Nothing is too hard for HIM. But He gave us authority and power, Wisdom, Revelation, and Insight on how to reach them. And we don't know how to use our God given anointing in reaching them. The 'law of sin and death' surely can't! It can't reach the heterosexual person. Ya think the law of sin and death is going to fare better with the LGBTQ community?

Hmmm.. I wonder how Jesus would reach them.

Maybe He would talk about Jeremiah 17:9 to them.. explaining how “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Perhaps He would explain what it is to be unequally yoked and the danger of being unequally yoked. And His Loving Kindness, compassion, and Love would convict them, not condemn them. Maybe He would tell them all what David went through and how he prayed for God to create in him a clean heart. Who knows what Jesus would say to pull them to HIMSELF.


It's harder because they are taught they are born that way and have science and society to back them up. If you challenge that even by asking them an innocent question they will go on the defensive.

If I had a choice between a normal average person and a person who was a hardened LG whatever, I would choose the average person. Why? Because Jesus chose average people. None of the 12 he chose were extreme sinners, and by that I mean they were not engaged in what God would consider to be an abomination - prostitutes, idolatory, homosexuality etc. If so, at least one of his disciples would have been LGBT. The bible never records Jesus meeting an LGBT person, bible authors were so ashamed they thought it best to omit. That may seem harsh, but it's true. No mention of anything like that. No mention of orgy, homosexuality etc in ancient pagan Rome? I find it hard to believe that it is omitted from the bible because it never happened.


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Oh yeah.. and they will make it known!!! I remember a newlywed couple in SAN DIEGO, who were 'counseled' to stop sitting together at the meetings.
It depends on the couple. If they are kissing and what not, I think I will say something to them. It's distracting, it's rude, some want to use the church meeting like a date night, absolutely no interest in what is going on.


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Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Yep.. religion always seems to rear its ugly head... even in the early church!
I don't think it was religion, it was how God ordained it to be, through Paul. The veil is a sign of submission, according to Genesis, God created Adam first then "the woman", who did not even get a proper name until she sinned, becoming known as Eve.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:17 PM   #18
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No, no ... CMW no one is ignoring you, at least not me. You brighten my day with all your smilies.
Awwwwww

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And besides, it's better to be ignored, than constantly insulted by some of the guys around here.
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!! There is a lot of this instead of a lot of

Quote:
You and I are of the few who are willing to admit the LC's were once a great place to be.
I know!! What's up with that?? Btw, I have been connecting with a brother who was in San Diego when I was there. We knew each other as best as a brother and sister could. He posted once on the forum but has a very hard time trying to figure out how the forum works. He even noted it when he posted. Not knowing who it was, I of all people helped him navigate it. He still has trouble. I sent him the letter John wrote (copied and pasted) He is the one who coined 'ELSIE the cow' to me. He has been out of the LC almost as long as I have been. But has attended meetings in Wisconsin where he has been living a very long time.

You know that thread on the church in San Diego 'history'? I cut and pasted every single post and sent them to him today. I tell you, most of us saints in San Diego from back in the day have very fond memories!

Btw... I am writing a blog here... so watch for it. and have the ready.

Love ya brother! Showers of blessings till we arrive and beyond.
Carol
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:55 AM   #19
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Welcome, QOTSA

You may be interested in several books written by a woman former member, Jane Carole Anderson. Her first book was The Thread of Gold and is her testimony beginning in her childhood through her exit from the LC. Her newest book is A Woman of Chayil [khah’-yil] which, in Jane's words, "takes an in-depth look at a huge, long-term sin in the body of Christ. This hidden spiritual cancer in the church has been growing for almost two millennia in the wrong relationships that exist between Christian women and Christian men."

In addition, Jane says:
"Let me be clear that I do not consider myself to be a feminist. Rather, I am a free woman in Christ. I have written this book from my perspective as a Christian woman who spent many years in enabling silence, having been subdued and suppressed by numerous Christian men who believed their wrong treatment of me was according to God and His Word. They believed that the Bible they held in their hands supported and even mandated their dominating behavior."

Jane made many of the observations you have made, but takes a different path which you may find interesting as well as biblical.

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jane-Ca...ole%20Anderson

Again, welcome--
Nell
Thanks so much for the book recommendations, Nell! Appreciate it. I will check them out.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:05 AM   #20
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QOTSA,

Seriously though, I do find it a huge failure and shame to 21st century Christians that the church in general is not widely considered as a promoter and supporter of social justice. Please understand I am not referring to the most "political" of issues per se, but only to the raw injustices perpetrated upon the most vulnerable in our society. God's people should be the first to come to the aid of these people, and not be heaping condemnation upon them. The Lord Jesus spent at least as much time healing the sick, rebuking the hypocrites and loving on the scored and outcast as he did preaching and teaching.

I will leave you with Psalm 89:14:

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.
-
Thank you so much for saying that, UnToHim. My thought exactly. Not to trivialize the Bible, but so many parts of the New Testament reminds me of FDR's New Deal. We gotta take care of the elderly, the youth, the unemployed, the sick, etc. Things will look so different if everyone can live with dignity. If the church would prioritize advancing welfare for all, wouldn't that be great?

Again, thank you. I very much appreciate your comment.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:06 AM   #21
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This part of tells me you are going to be okay.
You too. God speed.
Thank you for your goodwill, Igzy. Appreciate it.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:21 AM   #22
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I appreciate your testimony about the LC. I was involved in the church for 13 years decades ago [ see my signature line.] How long were you involved with the LC? How recently did you drop out? I'm interested in knowing to what degree it remains like it was when I was in it.
Hi Zeek! Thank you for your comment.
I was involved in the LC from mid 2011 to late 2015. Had to move to a new place and start over because it wasn't easy to cut all ties.
I'll refrain from making comments on people in my LC because I'm still processing my relationships with those folks and it wouldn't be fair if they couldn't respond to my claims. My guess is the LC I was involved in might look very different from the LC you experienced. My LC was small, about 20-30 regulars, mainly comprised of young professionals and college students (it was in a small Midwest college town). Home meetings, prayer meetings and Lord's Table would take place every week.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:27 AM   #23
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Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!
Hi happiernow,

Thank you for your comment. I read your post (without details) and, my heart broke for you. Your experience in LC doesn't define you. I believe you and I support you. You're worthy.

I'm so new to this forum! Haven't figured out how to direct message yet. I would love to chat with you! You sound like a wonderful and amazing individual. Much love.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:35 AM   #24
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The Old Testament is full of calls for social justice--usually concerning justice and care for the vulnerable (widows and orphans, who in those days were extremely vulnerable).

The Church can and should be involved in this effort. How can we say we care about people if we are not willing to help them with their most practical needs? Certainly everyone's spiritual needs are the long-term priority, but often their physical and emotional needs are the short-term priority--and sometimes the best way to affect the long term need is to focus on the short-term one.

I'm not for "back room and brass-knuckle" politics. But I think there are appropriate ways we can be involved and I think doing so gives glory to God and advances his Kingdom.

I think God is always pleased when we selflessly help "the least of these."
Igzy! Thank you for this comment. I'm with you 100%. Maslow's hierarchy of need lays it out pretty plainly: Any spiritual pursuit simply can't take place unless people are fed, sheltered, and safe. It's pretty common sense. People need to face reality.

I took your last sentence as words of encouragement. Thank you. Much appreciated.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:41 AM   #25
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LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!
Thank you, Ohio. I agree with the misrepresentation you mentioned. A lot of what's going on in LC and Christianity is not a fair and just representation of who God is. May He be merciful.

O-H-I-O! Ohio rocks. God bless.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:42 AM   #26
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Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.
Evangelical. Thank you for your input. There are couple things I wanted to talk about but how about we start with one.

What is your understanding on sexism? I'm also in Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies and by no means the "common definition of sexism today" has ever revolved around "females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa". Sexism is, and has always been about "the prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender." Note here that by definition, sexism can affect either gender.

And I apologize if I haven't made it clearer. When I talked about sexism exhibited in the LC, I was referring to misogyny, which stands for dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. From my experience, there certainly is prejudice against women in LC. I'm taking your comment "there's no dress code" at face value; Sure, different localities might have different practices. I'll just ask you one thing: Who do you see, in the leadership circle of LC, is a woman? And whom among those women that you considered leaders in the LC community, is not some elder/male leader's wife, sister, daughter? I'm genuinely curious if you know any sister that is in leadership position because of and only because of her spirituality.

That's the thing. Sexism to me is all about power dynamics. Men hold positions of power in the LC system. Men have all the representation in leadership. There are at least the same number of women, if not more, in the LC system. Why aren't women represented in positions of power and be involved in high level decision making? There are and always have been spiritual giants that are women. When voices from one gender are not heard but rather ignored, whatever the situation is, there is a problem.

I appreciate you bringing up the historical viewpoint. If you think people then got things right and you would rather live according to those standards, well, I'm fairly certain that I know much more about you as a person and a believer than how much info you revealed about yourself on this forum.

Thank you for your input. Looking forward to seeing your reply.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:31 AM   #27
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For the admin of this forum,

Thank you so much for allowing me to speak my mind. I appreciate that more than you think. Take care.
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:45 AM   #28
UntoHim
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That's what this forum is all about. Please consider registering by shooting an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com (include your desired UserName) Then you will not have the inconvenience of your posts having to go through the moderation queue. In any event, I think everyone has really enjoyed your views and understandings of the Local Church experience from a women's point of view, something that is sorely lacking around this place!

Your brother who is unto Him
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:48 PM   #29
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I did want to make a quick comment about the wider issue of being "turned into a leftist". If the scriptures are any gauge, God is neither "left" nor "right". If the record of the Gospels are true and accurate, Jesus Christ was neither "left" nor "right".
I agree Unto, however regarding current events related to UC Berkeley I tend to find similarities between liberals and the LSM leadership. They tend to utilize similar tactics in regard to contrarian points of view.
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Old 07-28-2017, 11:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Evangelical
Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.
First ... hey high CMW. I've tried to call a few times.

And:

When I was in the local church I thought all sisters were angels. I would have never dreamt that some of them, married sisters even, were getting it on with Philip Lee at LSM. And Tim Lee was also getting it on with married sisters.

The sisters are angels!?! bahahahaha ... how naive I was back then.

And then I discovered that, Watchman Nee had nude movies of sisters.

I got an idea. Make all the sisters wear white covering from head to toe. At least they'll look like angels.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:41 PM   #31
countmeworthy
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First ... hey high CMW. I've tried to call a few times.
Hola Mr H
I lost most of my contact info when I replaced my phone with a new one. Leave me a voice mail as I don't have your phone# or text me.

Good to 'see' ya!

Quote:
And:
When I was in the local church I thought all sisters were angels.
Oh! I've been called an angel on more than one occasion!! Then they get to know me.

Quote:
I would have never dreamt that some of them, married sisters even, were getting it on with Philip Lee at LSM. And Tim Lee was also getting it on with married sisters.
The biggest atrocity was Lee covering up while chastising the Godly elders and saints...and the ELSIE diehards hiding their heads under the sand like ostriches. They see NOTHING. KNOW NOTHING.

Quote:
The sisters are angels!?! bahahahaha ... how naive I was back then.
Hey! No sister is an 'angel' but there are some good women in the ELSIE as there are anywhere else. And don't get me started on the men of the ELSIE!

Quote:
And then I discovered that, Watchman Nee had nude movies of sisters.
of Godly sisters?? oh let me back up.. a true Godly sister would not do that..but a fakey sister might. Just wondering if they were really fakey sisters or just secular women? And is there proof? or just someone's word?' At the end of the day, if he did, he has to answer to the LORD as do each and everyone of us for our actions. So I don't really give a bamboozol kittenkaboodle what Lee or Nee did anymore.

Btw.. there really are a lot of fakey believers both in the Elsie and in the Christian community. Jesus Himself told us there would be fakey Christians when He called the 'Christian' men workers of iniquities even though they cast out demons in the Name of Jesus and also prophesied in the Name of Jesus.

But those who still idolize Nee and Lee though denying it, should probably be made aware of their (N & L's) stained, blemished and flaw filled lives. HOWEVER.. those people most importantly need to be fed the Bread of Life and given to drink fresh living water.

One of the reasons the church in Tempe fell apart very early on is all we did was expose Lee and the religious system he was turning the church into. All the bashing, venting and exposing did not edify any of us. it was good to vent and expose no doubt but it needed to be tempered with our love for Jesus and our desire to be led by the Holy Spirit.

We let our lamps run out of oil, and did not know where to get fresh oil and it had been so long, most of us if not all of us forgot how to fill our lamps.

Quote:
I got an idea. Make all the sisters wear white covering from head to toe. At least they'll look like angels.
They'd look more like sisters in law. Most nuns these days don't dress like that anymore but back in the 50s and 60s they covered everything but their faces.
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Old 07-29-2017, 10:11 AM   #32
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The biggest atrocity was Lee covering up while chastising the Godly elders and saints...and the ELSIE diehards hiding their heads under the sand like ostriches. They see NOTHING. KNOW NOTHING.
Yes Lee did cover it up, and wouldn't deal with it. He lost his closest coworkers over it.

Lee expected us to give our all to his ministry. But he didn't give his all to it. He compromised his ministry for his profligate sons.

Everyone would have walked just like the coworkers but they didn't know about it ... cuz it was covered up.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:40 AM   #33
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Thank you for sharing. You are not alone.

Travel, spatially but more importantly culturally turns out to be a great liberal education
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:04 PM   #34
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Everyone would have walked just like the coworkers but they didn't know about it ... cuz it was covered up.
Yes! That's why there was a need to speak lies about the elders who left. At the local level, a localities elders believed what they were being told. In turn brothers and sisters in each locality believed what they elders were saying. Speak a lie enough times and it becomes received as truth.
I've seen it.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:58 PM   #35
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Yes! That's why there was a need to speak lies about the elders who left. At the local level, a localities elders believed what they were being told. In turn brothers and sisters in each locality believed what they elders were saying. Speak a lie enough times and it becomes received as truth.
I've seen it.
Amen Terry. Btw, I love your tagline. Right on with the neutral perspective.
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