For OBW - What is the nature of Faith?

Peter Debelak · 01-16-2014, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Whoooohooooo! Somebody actually cares what UntoHim thinks!

For those of you who don't know, our friend Peter is a Juris Doctor...and people of this ilk never, never "ask a question that they don't know the answer to". Seriously though, I appreciate the chance to redeem myself as a wayward Admin of our little virtual clubhouse.

YES! YES a thousand times yes!. I would welcome "non Local Church" discussions here. The only thing I would say is that I wish that it could be within the rough confines of our "shared experience". Also so long as it does not wonder off into discussions including things that challenge and/or degrade the basic elements of the Christian faith - that the Bible is indeed the Word of God - that God has revealed himself to man through the Triune God - The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit - That the Lord Jesus Christ was the One and Unique God-Man, the unique Son of God, who was born of a virgin, lived a human life, was crucified and was raised from the dead and that those who believe on his name are saved.

Any questions?

Faith, MIke. Here's your thread.

I can lead a "well-lived" Christian life and never require faith, in a particular sense. I could just master cultural norms and vocabulary. If I'm dynamic, others might even praise me for it. So where does this "faith" you talk about play out? What does it look like? How does one find it? What's the dynamic between "faith" and "group"?

I have some thoughts on these questions

, but would rather hear your take. Ramble as long as it takes!

bearbear · 01-16-2014, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Faith, MIke. Here's your thread.

I can lead a "well-lived" Christian life and never require faith, in a particular sense. I could just master cultural norms and vocabulary. If I'm dynamic, others might even praise me for it. So where does this "faith" you talk about play out? What does it look like? How does one find it? What's the dynamic between "faith" and "group"?

I have some thoughts on these questions

, but would rather hear your take. Ramble as long as it takes!

Hi All,

I've written a blog post about this earlier stemming from a discussion in a previous thread. My definition of faith is found in Hebrews 11:1 as it relates to the children of Israel in their wilderness experience.

God expected the Israelites to actually have biblical "faith" (conviction, trust, assurance) in Him in order to receive their promised inheritance after they left Egypt. Many Israelites had faith that only went as far as credence that Jehovah existed as their deity, but they didn't actually have real "faith" in God that he would deliver them from every situation, despite Yahweh's many assurances in the past from performing miracles for them such as the ten plagues and parting of the Red Sea.

This is important because Paul says in Ephesians 2 that we are saved by "faith" alone in Christ Jesus. The apostle James also distinguished between a type of faith that cannot save you and one that can.

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-save-you.html

OBW · 01-17-2014, 05:12 AM

Not sure that I really asked for any particular discussion, but I do like this one.

And my responses will probably be unexpected. But as this is a morning with a short fuse that follows a day out of town, my responses will, at best, be coming later in the day or possibly tomorrow.

But I will say that I am less concerned with defining faith than in the evidence of those who a true followers of Christ. And I believe there is a way to discern that without being as unclear as we sometimes think.

OBW · 01-17-2014, 12:31 PM

Other than a comment about separating out discussions that are not LRC-related, I don't recall having an itch for any particular topic, but I'll bite.

And it will be nuanced and uncertain. Do not take anything I say as a declaration of certainty. That "this is it." I could probably go find specific verses that say very specific things, but too often it is uncertain that they actually apply in the way we think (if at all) in different circumstances. For example, Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross is not a statement to me. It surely has value in the discussion, but does not clearly force a specific conclusion — other than with respect to the thief. Similarly, the prayer of Jabez was something about Jabez. It may or may not have such far-reaching applicability that there should be a book written about it and people start going around acting like the promise made there must come to them. That is a variant of the prosperity gospel. It may not be taught in a prosperity context, but the effect is the same. Enough of the right kind of faith will guarantee me some kind of return that I can point to in a fantastic way.

It ain't necessarily so. And it is a position that demeans the faith of people who do not dare to do fantastic things while relying on this particular prayer.

- - - -

So the topic is faith. First, I think that it is probably safe to say that faith is defined as whatever Webster or whatever other dictionary says it is. The real question is what does it mean to actually have faith. I think that having faith is, to some degree, a different way of asserting belief. While the two words are not synonyms, we probably use them to discuss many of the same attributes.

Faith is the certainty that something not already a done deal will happen. It is the certainty that what you hear about the past that cannot be simply verified in a history book is as it is described. It is the certainty that there is something that will "come to the rescue" if other things go wrong. Many ways to think about it in life.

Not rocket science. But do we actually have faith? At differing levels, people believe that God is. They believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurrected, then ascended. How strongly do they believe? Probably differs from one to another, even among strong Christians. Don't forget "I believe. Help me in my unbelief."

I like that story about the guy with the wire across Niagara Falls and a wheelbarrow because the only one who believed strongly in his ability to get another person across the falls alive was the one who got in. But after he did it, others believed more strongly. Enough to get in? Not sure. Where is enough faith? I believe the guy could do it. But I was not asked to get into the wheel barrow. My level of faith is not tested. Does that make it incomplete?

Even though I may say that I have enough, if I arrived at the falls and was asked to get in, I might not have enough. If that was the difference between Heaven and Hell, then it is important. But if just admitting that I don't have enough faith and asking for more is it, then what about that?

And keeping the focus on that rather anxiety-producing example of riding a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls makes the cost more than most of us (if any) would be asked to bear.

I think that faith is something that is only theoretical until it is demonstrated. Therefore, the wheelbarrow example is not entirely useless.

But for most people, faith must play out in simpler ways. And James puts it into better perspective when he says that faith, belief, spirituality is not measured by claims, but by actions. And the actions that the Bible points to are works. They are acts of righteousness, love, kindness, charity, integrity, etc. And yet so many scoff at those because there are many people who can (and do) do at least a lot of those things without any belief in Christ.

That is a distractor. it is irrelevant that there are some who can. The question is — do you? Do I? And the righteousness, love, etc., that we are requested to give is not necessarily different in act than could be accomplished by a pagan. The real issue is why do you do it?

And since most of us, even the really good ones, are clear that we are nowhere near sinless perfection, then it is clear that we have areas in which we will fail at this charge. To me, the evidence that there is faith is not that we keep trying. But that in the process of keeping trying, we continue to seek guidance, strength, etc., from the only one who has enough to do it all. And that is Christ.

If you say that you believe in Christ, undertake to live the life that is required, and seek His help in accomplishing that, then I see faith.

If you believe in Christ, but your only seeking of Him is to get more warm fuzzies, then there is a serious question mark on your faith.

If you say you believe in Christ and undertake to live the Christian life, but at every set-back you withdraw into yourself and to giving up, then I question your faith. (Can't rule you out. I can't see everything.)

If you don't believe in Christ, the rest is pointless and the answer is that there is no faith.

Some will point out that I said nothing about how much time is spent in the Word. I will not provide any kind of bright-line claim for requirement. I will not even attempt to declare how it must happen. The person who hears the word spoken periodically (say, in the weekly meeting) and thinks on that through the week is "in the word." And while not at the same level as a seminary scholar, he/she is in the word. In history, there have been times when for a majority of the people who professed faith in any way, that is all they could do. Having a printed (or hand copied) Bible was irrelevant.

I would suggest that those who do not consider the Word in any way do not set put to undertake the life required in the Bible. So the need, though extremely varied in appearance, would seem to be satisfied.

As for things of the "inner life," I wonder if maybe those are more often misunderstood as to their meaning. Maybe it is more that they are realities of those who live the life rather than the place to go to get the life. Not dismissing it entirely, but suggesting that it is of uncertain importance to dwell on it as an activity or study.

Last, there is a propensity by some to start replying to posts point-by-point. While I do not claim that everything I have said is entirely the way it really is, it is not a collection of alleged facts. It is not dismantled by trying to disprove specific premises. It really is a picture of a whole. And I believe that it aligns pretty well with the picture that I see drawn in the scripture.

So, rather than attacking notion by notion, tell me first where the whole fails. I am surely not expecting my idea to be found a perfect example of gold, silver,, and precious stones. I'm expect that there may be some chaff. Maybe quite a bit. But does that actually destroy the picture painted? Does it simply recolor portions? Or do we need to clutter the thread with proof texts for specific, nuanced points that may not actually speak to the whole of the question, but rather to something somewhat singular and specific?

So I guess what I am saying is that I would seek a kindred soul — not in conclusion, but in method. Let's start with the overall premise. Is it really a package deal? Is it a combination of what you believe (or think you believe), what you do with that, and whether you are seeking the help of the one you claim to believe?

For that kind of theology, I don't think you need to figure out some definition for faith. You need to believe and act like it in all ways (even when you fail).

OBW · 01-17-2014, 12:42 PM

Let me add that my last comments were not meant to dismiss specifics of scripture. But I believe that there is a tendency to chop large discussions, narratives, etc., into bits that may cause them to say, or at least infer, things that are not really germane to the actual discussion. I am fully on board with the scripture. But I'm not sure that finding a "thus saith the Lord" always means what some think it does. And not "every promise in the book is mine" as the song we sang in my childhood would declare. Some of the promises are explicitly to the person(s) to whom it is made, and that is it.

And I believe that each portion of narrative has meaning. And things not relevant to that narrative that might be ripped from a fortune-cookie apporach to the words in it are not likely relevant to the real meaning of scripture (for example, 1 Cor 15:45, out of context).

Those are points of view that not everyone shares. If that is a problem for anyone, then we will be at odds in reading some parts of scripture.

I don't think that it is an offense at the level of heresy (either way). So I can live with not coming to agreement with those who could not take that way. I can still fellowship with them. And I can take communion with them. We are one in the Spirit, not in the doctrine.

Peter Debelak · 01-17-2014, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Last, there is a propensity by some to start replying to posts point-by-point. While I do not claim that everything I have said is entirely the way it really is, it is not a collection of alleged facts. It is not dismantled by trying to disprove specific premises. It really is a picture of a whole. And I believe that it aligns pretty well with the picture that I see drawn in the scripture.

So, rather than attacking notion by notion, tell me first where the whole fails. I am surely not expecting my idea to be found a perfect example of gold, silver,, and precious stones. I'm expect that there may be some chaff. Maybe quite a bit. But does that actually destroy the picture painted? Does it simply recolor portions? Or do we need to clutter the thread with proof texts for specific, nuanced points that may not actually speak to the whole of the question, but rather to something somewhat singular and specific?

So I guess what I am saying is that I would seek a kindred soul — not in conclusion, but in method. Let's start with the overall premise. Is it really a package deal? Is it a combination of what you believe (or think you believe), what you do with that, and whether you are seeking the help of the one you claim to believe?

For that kind of theology, I don't think you need to figure out some definition for faith. You need to believe and act like it in all ways (even when you fail).

Mike:
First, this thread was specifically started because you asked UNTO if we could discuss non-LC-related topics, and that you’d been thinking about the nature of faith. UNTO, discussed that, I asked him we could do it, and he consented – so I started this thread…. 

I agree with your impulse to ask that people respond to the “whole” rather than the “point-by-point,” especially in a matter like this one.

I very much like your Niagra distinction between “belief” and “applied faith.”

In fact, I think it actually brings up another (related) topic – not of “faith” but of the sphere to which you subject your faith. It is very often that we create “wombs” for our faith. Mutually-reinforcing congregations that mostly commend your life, rather than challenge it.
It is not a formed thought, but sometimes I wonder whether faith is best formed, and developed, in a tenuous world, rather than in a known arena like a formal congregation. (there’s a lot of assumptions here, I know – we can discuss further).

In particular, I often wonder about how we “teach faith” to our children. Honestly, within Christian communities, I see far more faithless-indoctrination, and much less faith-based teaching. If, for example, we believe in Christ as the son of God and our Savior and that this is TRUTH – what do we teach our children? Do we indoctrinate them on this matter, or do we, instead – teach them 1) to know the law (since it is a child conductor) and 2) to be seekers after truth, based on our FAITH that if someone who knows their conscience, if they pursue TRUTH, they will encounter Christ and their own fallibility.

I think the definition of faith is MOST tested in terms of what and how we teach our children. Do you agree? Disagree?

Thoughts?

Peter

awareness · 01-18-2014, 08:10 AM

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith ...

OBW · 01-18-2014, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Mike:
First, this thread was specifically started because you asked UNTO if we could discuss non-LC-related topics, and that you’d been thinking about the nature of faith. UNTO, discussed that, I asked him we could do it, and he consented – so I started this thread…. 

I agree with your impulse to ask that people respond to the “whole” rather than the “point-by-point,” especially in a matter like this one.

I very much like your Niagra distinction between “belief” and “applied faith.”

In fact, I think it actually brings up another (related) topic – not of “faith” but of the sphere to which you subject your faith. It is very often that we create “wombs” for our faith. Mutually-reinforcing congregations that mostly commend your life, rather than challenge it.
It is not a formed thought, but sometimes I wonder whether faith is best formed, and developed, in a tenuous world, rather than in a known arena like a formal congregation. (there’s a lot of assumptions here, I know – we can discuss further).

In particular, I often wonder about how we “teach faith” to our children. Honestly, within Christian communities, I see far more faithless-indoctrination, and much less faith-based teaching. If, for example, we believe in Christ as the son of God and our Savior and that this is TRUTH – what do we teach our children? Do we indoctrinate them on this matter, or do we, instead – teach them 1) to know the law (since it is a child conductor) and 2) to be seekers after truth, based on our FAITH that if someone who knows their conscience, if they pursue TRUTH, they will encounter Christ and their own fallibility.

I think the definition of faith is MOST tested in terms of what and how we teach our children. Do you agree? Disagree?

Thoughts?

Peter

Troublesome places these churches are. They provide a place to discover that you are off kilter, to learn more, to increase your faith, etc., and at the same time they can stifle your growth because they are geared for only ABCDGK & M. Forget about EFHIJLN . . .

I think that at some level no place is perfect. If we have open eyes we will always see something lacking. But more often than not, it is probably lacking in us as much or more than in the others. We just notice it. That does not mean that we need to move on, because the next place may have "X" but they have abandoned "G."

For me, the only real problem is when they are indoctrinating with something that is questionable or wrong. Or they are more worried about indoctrination against other Christians than against the world.

I recently read something about a guy who used to lead worship where we attended. He had long ago moved to Colorado. The thing said "[name], too liturgical for the progressives and too progressive for the liturgical. Someone that everyone can hate." To be honest, I loved the way he had created this strange tapestry of old and new in the worship back in the mid 2000s. Nothing was there just to be cool or just to please the hymns crowd or the praise song crowd. It was a mix of uplifting and contemplative. New and old (even very old). Everyone I know of enjoyed it and it has lived on several years afterward.

awareness · 01-17-2014, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

God expected the Israelites to actually have biblical "faith"

The Israelite's didn't have a Bible.

bearbear · 01-17-2014, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

The Israelite's didn't have a Bible.

Perhaps that's why they failed, because they didn't have Hebrews 11:1 yet

But putting myself in their shoes, it's sometimes hard to relate to their situation. After witnessing the ten plagues and red sea parting, I think I would have been "Yea Right On Jehovah!!!" all the way until the end.

They must have had one hell of a time in Egypt despite being slaves. Or perhaps they never left their mindset of slavery. They needed to take the extra step of believing they were children of God and no longer slaves.

It's like if you are bill gate's son and your car breaks down and you start crying, forgetting that a billionaire is your father. That's what God must feel like sometimes towards children who forget their identity.

Phil 4:19
And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:6
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

01-17-2014, 05:12 AM	#3
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: For OBW - What is the nature of Faith? Not sure that I really asked for any particular discussion, but I do like this one. And my responses will probably be unexpected. But as this is a morning with a short fuse that follows a day out of town, my responses will, at best, be coming later in the day or possibly tomorrow. But I will say that I am less concerned with defining faith than in the evidence of those who a true followers of Christ. And I believe there is a way to discern that without being as unclear as we sometimes think. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-17-2014, 12:31 PM	#4
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: For OBW - What is the nature of Faith? Other than a comment about separating out discussions that are not LRC-related, I don't recall having an itch for any particular topic, but I'll bite. And it will be nuanced and uncertain. Do not take anything I say as a declaration of certainty. That "this is it." I could probably go find specific verses that say very specific things, but too often it is uncertain that they actually apply in the way we think (if at all) in different circumstances. For example, Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross is not a statement to me. It surely has value in the discussion, but does not clearly force a specific conclusion — other than with respect to the thief. Similarly, the prayer of Jabez was something about Jabez. It may or may not have such far-reaching applicability that there should be a book written about it and people start going around acting like the promise made there must come to them. That is a variant of the prosperity gospel. It may not be taught in a prosperity context, but the effect is the same. Enough of the right kind of faith will guarantee me some kind of return that I can point to in a fantastic way. It ain't necessarily so. And it is a position that demeans the faith of people who do not dare to do fantastic things while relying on this particular prayer. - - - - So the topic is faith. First, I think that it is probably safe to say that faith is defined as whatever Webster or whatever other dictionary says it is. The real question is what does it mean to actually have faith. I think that having faith is, to some degree, a different way of asserting belief. While the two words are not synonyms, we probably use them to discuss many of the same attributes. Faith is the certainty that something not already a done deal will happen. It is the certainty that what you hear about the past that cannot be simply verified in a history book is as it is described. It is the certainty that there is something that will "come to the rescue" if other things go wrong. Many ways to think about it in life. Not rocket science. But do we actually have faith? At differing levels, people believe that God is. They believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurrected, then ascended. How strongly do they believe? Probably differs from one to another, even among strong Christians. Don't forget "I believe. Help me in my unbelief." I like that story about the guy with the wire across Niagara Falls and a wheelbarrow because the only one who believed strongly in his ability to get another person across the falls alive was the one who got in. But after he did it, others believed more strongly. Enough to get in? Not sure. Where is enough faith? I believe the guy could do it. But I was not asked to get into the wheel barrow. My level of faith is not tested. Does that make it incomplete? Even though I may say that I have enough, if I arrived at the falls and was asked to get in, I might not have enough. If that was the difference between Heaven and Hell, then it is important. But if just admitting that I don't have enough faith and asking for more is it, then what about that? And keeping the focus on that rather anxiety-producing example of riding a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls makes the cost more than most of us (if any) would be asked to bear. I think that faith is something that is only theoretical until it is demonstrated. Therefore, the wheelbarrow example is not entirely useless. But for most people, faith must play out in simpler ways. And James puts it into better perspective when he says that faith, belief, spirituality is not measured by claims, but by actions. And the actions that the Bible points to are works. They are acts of righteousness, love, kindness, charity, integrity, etc. And yet so many scoff at those because there are many people who can (and do) do at least a lot of those things without any belief in Christ. That is a distractor. it is irrelevant that there are some who can. The question is — do you? Do I? And the righteousness, love, etc., that we are requested to give is not necessarily different in act than could be accomplished by a pagan. The real issue is why do you do it? And since most of us, even the really good ones, are clear that we are nowhere near sinless perfection, then it is clear that we have areas in which we will fail at this charge. To me, the evidence that there is faith is not that we keep trying. But that in the process of keeping trying, we continue to seek guidance, strength, etc., from the only one who has enough to do it all. And that is Christ. If you say that you believe in Christ, undertake to live the life that is required, and seek His help in accomplishing that, then I see faith. If you believe in Christ, but your only seeking of Him is to get more warm fuzzies, then there is a serious question mark on your faith. If you say you believe in Christ and undertake to live the Christian life, but at every set-back you withdraw into yourself and to giving up, then I question your faith. (Can't rule you out. I can't see everything.) If you don't believe in Christ, the rest is pointless and the answer is that there is no faith. Some will point out that I said nothing about how much time is spent in the Word. I will not provide any kind of bright-line claim for requirement. I will not even attempt to declare how it must happen. The person who hears the word spoken periodically (say, in the weekly meeting) and thinks on that through the week is "in the word." And while not at the same level as a seminary scholar, he/she is in the word. In history, there have been times when for a majority of the people who professed faith in any way, that is all they could do. Having a printed (or hand copied) Bible was irrelevant. I would suggest that those who do not consider the Word in any way do not set put to undertake the life required in the Bible. So the need, though extremely varied in appearance, would seem to be satisfied. As for things of the "inner life," I wonder if maybe those are more often misunderstood as to their meaning. Maybe it is more that they are realities of those who live the life rather than the place to go to get the life. Not dismissing it entirely, but suggesting that it is of uncertain importance to dwell on it as an activity or study. Last, there is a propensity by some to start replying to posts point-by-point. While I do not claim that everything I have said is entirely the way it really is, it is not a collection of alleged facts. It is not dismantled by trying to disprove specific premises. It really is a picture of a whole. And I believe that it aligns pretty well with the picture that I see drawn in the scripture. So, rather than attacking notion by notion, tell me first where the whole fails. I am surely not expecting my idea to be found a perfect example of gold, silver,, and precious stones. I'm expect that there may be some chaff. Maybe quite a bit. But does that actually destroy the picture painted? Does it simply recolor portions? Or do we need to clutter the thread with proof texts for specific, nuanced points that may not actually speak to the whole of the question, but rather to something somewhat singular and specific? So I guess what I am saying is that I would seek a kindred soul — not in conclusion, but in method. Let's start with the overall premise. Is it really a package deal? Is it a combination of what you believe (or think you believe), what you do with that, and whether you are seeking the help of the one you claim to believe? For that kind of theology, I don't think you need to figure out some definition for faith. You need to believe and act like it in all ways (even when you fail). __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-17-2014, 12:42 PM	#5
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: For OBW - What is the nature of Faith? Let me add that my last comments were not meant to dismiss specifics of scripture. But I believe that there is a tendency to chop large discussions, narratives, etc., into bits that may cause them to say, or at least infer, things that are not really germane to the actual discussion. I am fully on board with the scripture. But I'm not sure that finding a "thus saith the Lord" always means what some think it does. And not "every promise in the book is mine" as the song we sang in my childhood would declare. Some of the promises are explicitly to the person(s) to whom it is made, and that is it. And I believe that each portion of narrative has meaning. And things not relevant to that narrative that might be ripped from a fortune-cookie apporach to the words in it are not likely relevant to the real meaning of scripture (for example, 1 Cor 15:45, out of context). Those are points of view that not everyone shares. If that is a problem for anyone, then we will be at odds in reading some parts of scripture. I don't think that it is an offense at the level of heresy (either way). So I can live with not coming to agreement with those who could not take that way. I can still fellowship with them. And I can take communion with them. We are one in the Spirit, not in the doctrine. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-18-2014, 08:10 AM	#7
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: For OBW - What is the nature of Faith? Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith ... __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.