The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada

[Norm]

I thought this would be a good beginning.

Norm

[Testing123]

Well, as I have stated elsewhere, I am very much attached to music, hymns and hymnbooks. I believe it was SpeakersCorner that mentioned that a new hymnal is in the works in the GLA. If it's appropriate to let us know more on what is being put together, I'd be most interested.

[TLFisher]

Testing123, you have caught my interest. A new hymnal? Haven't heard of it. I'm not musicly inclined, but I've always enjoyed local church songtapes wherever they're produced.

Terry

[Testing123]

Me too, brother Terry. I'm not exactly sure if this is breaking the guidelines on referencing BARM posts, but the new hymnal was mentioned in post #5 of "Quarantining the Supplement." Sounds very promising.

[TLFisher]

Any song tapes or should I say CD's?

[Testing123]

Terry, I've always been fond of the style of music and recording that I think is particular to the Local Church. I don't exactly know how to describe it, but I haven't really encountered it elsewhere since coming out of the system. In the last several years, a group of LCers has been putting out cds with some great music on it. I'd recommend them:

http://www.nycypcd.org

[Prayerful]

Does anyone know when and where this new hymnal will be available?

[TLFisher]

In February 2008, there was a conference held in Goshen, Indiana. I had heard about it by word of mouth. Without the internet, I would not had known how to hear the messages given. Through http://keepitintune.net/ I was able to order the messages in cd format which I might add were free of charge.

Terry

[TLFisher]

I was taken with Vern Yoder's speaking in message five. Much of what our brother touched on was the matter of Gifts and Functioning. The base of Vern's speaking was from Ephesians 4. Perception of many see gifts as being obvious such as teaching, speaking, evangelizing, etc. True, if you're not good at public speaking or shy away from it, you're gift is probably not an evangel.
Well, I believe each of us have gifts. Just in different ways and in different measure. I consider the small group I meet with. One brother is a gifted teacher, another is a shepherd, another in contacting people, and another in receiving. Each has something to contribute that another may be deficient in.
Vern's speaking on functioning blew my concepts. For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening. I'll need to go back and listen to message five again before saying anything further on the matter of functioning.

Terry

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Vern's speaking on functioning blew my concepts. For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening.

If this is the recent conference that Nigel, Vern and John did, I read some of the transcripts. I guess I did not read this particular one, but maybe I should.

I think you are onto something here. We were all trying to come up with the right thing to say so that we would be “in the flow” and get a lot of enthusiastic “amens.”

When you say “intently listening,” I think that was the key. If what was being spoken was really of value, we should have been intent to listen, and even contemplate what we had just heard. But instead, we were thinking about our own words while we left one ear marginally tuned in to hear the buzz words that warranted an “amen” or “hallelujah.” There would be no pause at the end of any speaking for contemplation. Someone was spring-loaded and pulled the lever to pop-up and continue the free-for-all.

So functioning looked more like a circular massaging of each others’ shoulders. I’ll make you feel good if you make me feel good.

I really enjoy taking time to consider the things I read and hear. Sometimes that extra time results in revelation that could never come from straining to get my own two cents worth into the fray. My function is not popcorn speaking. It is not active evangelism. It surely wasn’t door knocking in the mid-80s.

On that last one, I think that is among the reasons that we left. Not simply because of door knocking, but because all the energies of the LC went into that activity and there was nothing for those who weren’t gung-ho for it. My wife I needed more than door knocking and “just call on the Lord” but it was not to be found.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

When you say “intently listening,” I think that was the key. If what was being spoken was really of value, we should have been intent to listen, and even contemplate what we had just heard. But instead, we were thinking about our own words while we left one ear marginally tuned in to hear the buzz words that warranted an “amen” or “hallelujah.”

My function is not popcorn speaking. It is not active evangelism. It surely wasn’t door knocking in the mid-80s.

On that last one, I think that is among the reasons that we left. Not simply because of door knocking, but because all the energies of the LC went into that activity and there was nothing for those who weren’t gung-ho for it. My wife I needed more than door knocking and “just call on the Lord” but it was not to be found.

By listening intently, it's about giving undivided attention to the speaker and not thinking about what you're going to say. Often saying amen becomes routinely habitual without realizing what am you or I saying amen too.
Off topic a bit, back in the mid-eighties era of door knocking it was often suggested to "turn to your spirit" in order to solve problems, issues, etc.
What I sense you and your wife needed is a few brothers and sisters to give a prayer in your presence. Whether or not the prayer is answered, it's encouraging, comforting, and healing to be prayed for in such an intimate informal manner.

Terry

[Testing123]

For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening.

Terry, I appreciate the concept, but what is the implication here? Is that certain speakers ("gifted" speakers) like Vern should be given more time to speak, and that everyone else should "intently listen." It might be my anti-hierarchy streak showing, but I'm always a little skeptical when "speaking brothers" like these make such points in defense of their own prerogative to speak more than everyone else.

[Guest1]

Originally Posted by Terry

I was taken with Vern Yoder's speaking in message five. Much of what our brother touched on was the matter of Gifts and Functioning. The base of Vern's speaking was from Ephesians 4. Perception of many see gifts as being obvious such as teaching, speaking, evangelizing, etc. True, if you're not good at public speaking or shy away from it, you're gift is probably not an evangel.
Well, I believe each of us have gifts. Just in different ways and in different measure. I consider the small group I meet with. One brother is a gifted teacher, another is a shepherd, another in contacting people, and another in receiving. Each has something to contribute that another may be deficient in.
Vern's speaking on functioning blew my concepts. For years the practice had been to function, one had to speak. If you weren't speaking, you weren't functioning. One aspect to consider is if all thr brothers and sisters want to speak in order to function, who is really listening to what's being spoken? There so much emphasis on speaking that no one is intently listening. I'll need to go back and listen to message five again before saying anything further on the matter of functioning.

Terry

Hi .. I am a newbie here and have a lot to learn and catch up on... I remember Vern Yoder as a dear brother .. who left the 'church' ... ok I just wanted to say that I hear alot of local church 'lingo' in this thread.. what is Vern Yoder now.. ?? is Nigel the Nigel also from the church in Chicago.. sorry not trying to be disrespectful or anything.. just trying to understand whats going on .. what is GLA .. thanks for your patience with me..

God's Blessings...

[djohnson]

Recently a major division occurred and is still unfolding in the LSC [local church system] between the GLA [Great Lakes area] and more or less the rest - complete with lawsuits over meeting hall properties. Some of the leaders in the GLA are Titus Chu, Nigel Tomes, John Myer, etc. Titus Chu and his coworkers have been "quarantined" by the LSM crowd. They are considered lepers i.e. untouchables. Titus Chu was denounced publicly at a leaders conference in Whistler, BC. To my knowledge Vern Yoder still works with Chu, Tomes, etc. so presumably he's a leper too!

[Guest1]

wow.. so they are still into the local church.. I mean who cares what the LSM crowd thinks.. ?? I think it would be a blessing to be considered a leper by any religious cult.. Lord Jesus have mercy on us.. we love you Lord and we give you all the Glory.. Praise God.. thank you so much for answering my questions.. your post helped greatly ... so we are praying that they will be rescued from this horrible situation.. plucked out of that horrible system and freed in Christ Jesus..Amen

[TLFisher]

One phrase Nigel uttered from message six should become our reality:
"we don't have it all, but we have a contribution"

I took his speaking as meaning when we gather with other Christians, we shouldn't act or conduct ourselves as Biblical know it alls, but we do have a content and a portion of Christ to share....
Any thoughts from those that were there in February?

Terry Fisher

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Terry

One phrase Nigel uttered from message six should become our reality:
"we don't have it all, but we have a contribution"

I took his speaking as meaning when we gather with other Christians, we shouldn't act or conduct ourselves as Biblical know it alls, but we do have a content and a portion of Christ to share....

Terry,

I can't recall Nigel's exact utterance, but I do believe he was touching on one of the crucial matters being discussed these days in the GLAs: how do we fit into the general body of Christ? Of course, from our LC days we thought ourselves to be a special subset of the body, but when that evolved into exclusivism, sectarianism, arrogance, etc., it revealed something underlying this idea of being "special" that is very dangerous. John Myers talked about this as well in the Goshen conference.

As for me, I'm not so sure where I stand on this issue. It seems to me that any subset within the body of Christ -- and by that I mean any church, sect, denomination, etc. -- must be a subset for a reason and that reason is related to having a clearer view of God's operation. I know the Mennonites around me clearly feel they understand peace issues better than the general body and that's one big reason they stay together. Likewise, Baptists clearly think they understand salvation and the "fundamentals" of the faith better than others and that's what keeps them, at least in part, together.

Further, I would say that the diminishing of the mainline groups is in large part because they are losing their sense of "specialness" or distinctiveness. It just seems to me that the reason we meet with whoever we do is because we have a common vision that we feel is better in some way than others around us.

Anyway, I'm grappling with these issues.

BTW, I'm the old "SpeakersCorner" from the other forum. I registered as such but never got an email response so I couldn't activate my account. If I were a paranoid sort, I'd think maybe they didn't want me here ... but I know that can't be true. They allowed Ohio in. (Just kidding, Ohio! It was a joke.)


SC or, sadly I guess now, LC

(Hm, this may not work at all.)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

BTW, I'm the old "SpeakersCorner" from the other forum. I registered as such but never got an email response so I couldn't activate my account. If I were a paranoid sort, I'd think maybe they didn't want me here ... but I know that can't be true. They allowed Ohio in. (Just kidding, Ohio! It was a joke.)
SC or, sadly I guess now, LC

Hey SC, they let me in because I had "3 referrals" on my "profile" rap sheet. I had more than anyone else! I guess that's a good thing. Maybe not. Maybe it's a bad thing.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Terry,

I can't recall Nigel's exact utterance, but I do believe he was touching on one of the crucial matters being discussed these days in the GLAs: how do we fit into the general body of Christ? Of course, from our LC days we thought ourselves to be a special subset of the body, but when that evolved into exclusivism, sectarianism, arrogance, etc., it revealed something underlying this idea of being "special" that is very dangerous. John Myers talked about this as well in the Goshen conference.

SC or, sadly I guess now, LC

(Hm, this may not work at all.)

SpeakersCorner, that was the essence of my point. Being special as a self-percieved notion we're set apart from the rest of Christianity. There was always the lurking danger of exclusivism becoming a behavior. I'm sure we all have friends, family, and co-workers who are Christians not meeting in the local churches. What we were imparted with while recieving Witness Lee's ministry should never make us think we're better than this group or that group. Rather we should consider what we may fellowship on as a contribution.
The danger I see that exists some may not be consciously aware of. I've noticed behavior while meeting with the local churches and in my time since. Something along the lines of, so and so is a devout Christian even if the don't meet with the Church in _______. Other points of exclucivism may be on the reality of the church or on the proper ground, etc.
I'm sure there are many groups I've never met with who may consider themselves having a special niche in Christianity. Key is, will ones drop their concepts and doctrines just to meet and fellowship through the Bible?

Terry Fisher

[UntoHim]

Discussions and reports regarding the MidWest/GLA area.

[Old Rasputin]

These bi-annual youth conferences have been lightning rods for criticism, controversy, and dissension both before and after the Anaheim-GLA split. They are also a handy litmus test to see where various saints and churches stand on certain matters regarding what practices are allowed, etc. They also seem to be the strongest engine of change within the GLA, Nigel and the Concerned Brothers not excepted. I'd like to know what others think of Mountain Top.

[Peter Debelak]

I have some thoughts on this, but since they were more general than these conferences, I started another Thread entitle "Raising the Children of Christians...

[djohnson]

OldRasp do you mean after the split with Anaheim that within the spin off GLA churches there is dissension about this issue? Just trying to get clarification about what you posted. Thanks.

[Old Rasputin]

OldRasp do you mean after the split with Anaheim that within the spin off GLA churches there is dissension about this issue?

Yes, you said it better than I did! I think that Mountaintop and Ignite are still controversial items in the GLA churches. When discussing John Myers or Nigel Tomes we often comment on the rate and direction of change in the churches they influence and possible resistance to them. I think these youth conferences are a useful place to observe new directions being tested by young leaders in the GLA as well as criticisms of some of those new directions.

[djohnson]

Thanks for clarification Old Rasp. I had the mistaken impression that the youth ministry that includes Ignite, etc was widely accepted in the GLA area except among the LSM die hards who have since split off. What is it that some people find so objectionable?

[Old Rasputin]

A common criticism seems to be that it is spiritually shallow.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by Old Rasputin

A common criticism seems to be that it is spiritually shallow.

Yes, 'cause they use "worldly music" and go amusement parks.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Old Rasputin

A common criticism seems to be that it is spiritually shallow.

To be honest...I was so touched watching those young people pray and confess with tears in their eyes...
Only a hardened believer could call that shallow.

[Testing123]

Recently, I've been able to get hold of a copy of the directory booklet - "United States, Canada, Mexico, Central America & Caribbean: Church Addresses, 2008-2009" published by "The Church Address Book Project" in Anaheim (the mailing address for the publisher is that of the service office of the Church in Anaheim located in the building used by the Acaciawood School). This is the first updated book to be published since the 2005-2006 edition. One disclaimer at the beginning states - "This booklet is not an 'official' list of churches, but is a source of information only." Also - "The brothers whose names are listed to contact for each place are not necessarily elders."

Given the current climate in the LC related to the "Great Lakes Area" churches, I wanted to see how those groups had been handled in terms of their entries in this church directory. Not surprisingly, there are very substantial changes. Note: it would not be possible for me to determine whether the churches removed had chosen to be taken out, or whether they were removed against their wishes; perhaps someone like Norm could clarify. Nonetheless, this may, de facto, be seen as a presentation of those groups no longer recognized as legitimate LCs by the leadership in the rest of the country.

Some of the changes will, of course, be unrelated to the events surrounding the GLA. Also, some of the churches in this exercise would not have been affected in the first place, being at the far reaches of the relevant territory (I have not even categorized New York City or Philadelphia here, as they are not even relevant). However, for the sake of organization, I've compared all of the other listings in both books for the states of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. I've compared Canadian GLA churches here (link).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Without Substantial Changes

Chicago (Irving Park), IL
Glen Carbon, IL
Palatine, IL
Streamwood, IL

Lafayette, IN

Iowa City, IA

Bloomfield Hills, MI
Kalamazoo, MI
Wixom, MI

Brooklyn Park, MN

Hazelwood, MO
Kansas City, MO

Elyria, OH
Fairborn, OH

Danville, PA

Eau Claire, WI
Milwaukee, WI

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Removed in the New Edition

Chicago (Downtown), IL
Naperville, IL

Goshen, IN
Indianapolis, IN

Des Moines, IA

Detroit, MI
Grand Rapids, MI
Troy, MI

Minneapolis, MN

Columbia, MO
Joplin, MO
St. Louis, MO

Buffalo, NY (replaced with Amherst, NY)

Akron, OH
Cambridge, OH
Cincinnati, OH
Cleveland, OH
Dayton, OH
Lorain, OH
Shaker Heights, OH
Toledo, OH
Westlake, OH
Willoughby, OH

Manheim, PA (replaced with Lancaster, PA)
New Oxford, PA
State College, PA

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs With New Information (Replaced or Restructured)

Ames, IA (new leadership, new addresses)

Ann Arbor, MI (new leadership, new addresses)

Rochester, MN (new leadership)

Amherst, NY (replaced Buffalo, NY)

Columbus, OH (new leadership)
Mansfield, OH (new leadership)

Lancaster, PA (replaced Manheim, PA)
Pittsburgh, PA (new leadership, new addresses)

Madison, WI (new leadership, new addresses)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
New LCs in the New Edition

Champaign-Urbana, IL
Waukegan, IL

East Lansing, MI

Rochester, NY

Dallas, PA
Hershey, PA

[Testing123]

Recently, I've been able to get hold of a copy of the directory booklet - "United States, Canada, Mexico, Central America & Caribbean: Church Addresses, 2008-2009" published by "The Church Address Book Project" in Anaheim (the mailing address for the publisher is that of the service office of the Church in Anaheim located in the building used by the Acaciawood School). This is the first updated book to be published since the 2005-2006 edition. One disclaimer at the beginning states - "This booklet is not an 'official' list of churches, but is a source of information only." Also - "The brothers whose names are listed to contact for each place are not necessarily elders."

Given the current climate in the LC related to the "Great Lakes Area" churches, I wanted to see how those groups had been handled in terms of their entries in this church directory. Not surprisingly, there are very substantial changes. Note: it would not be possible for me to determine whether the churches removed had chosen to be taken out, or whether they were removed against their wishes; perhaps someone like Norm could clarify. Nonetheless, this may, de facto, be seen as a presentation of those groups no longer recognized as legitimate LCs by the leadership in the rest of the country.

Some of the changes will, of course, be unrelated to the events surrounding the GLA. Also, some of the churches in this exercise would not have been affected in the first place, being at the far reaches of the relevant territory. However, for the sake of organization, I've compared all of the other listings in both books for the provinces of Ontario, Nova Scotia, and Quebec. A post with US churches is here (link).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Without Substantial Changes

Halifax, NS

Adelaide-Metcalfe, ON
Brampton, ON
Kitchener, ON
London, ON
Markham, ON
Ottawa, ON
St. Catherines, ON
Toronto (Hall 1), ON}
Toronto (Hall 2), ON} (replaced with Toronto, ON)
Toronto (Hall 3), ON}

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs Removed in the New Edition

Mississauga, ON

--------------------------------------------------------------------
LCs With New Information (Replaced or Restructured)

Montreal, QC (new addresses, new leadership)
Toronto, ON (new addresses, new leadership)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
New LCs in the New Edition

Kingston, ON

[Guest1]

have you ever gone online or called any of the United States lc's .. they all have the same message and posts.. all generic..all the numbers that i called.. this was awhile back .. no one ever answers the phone.. weird

[Testing123]

GTCA (Gospelize, Truthize, and Churchize America) has officially been launched! Applications forms are now available for "migration" Champaign, IL and Columbus, OH!

http://gtca.us/

http://www.churchinChampaign.org/Home.html

http://www.churchincolumbus.org/gtca/

[countmeworthy]

Regarding Columbus, Ohio.........they gonna have to do some serious 'truthizing & churchizing' there 'cause Rod Parsley & his World Harvest church have a big chunk of the 'ground' in Columbus, Ohio.


Sorrrrrrrry. I couldn't resist.

For those who don't know...Rod Parsley is one of many TV Evangelists & has a huge following. I don't personally follow his ministry. There are SOME good things about it but overall, it's not my cup of Tee.

[Only by Grace]

Originally Posted by Testing123

GTCA (Gospelize, Truthize, and Churchize America) has officially been launched! Applications forms are now available for "migration" Champaign, IL and Columbus, OH!

http://gtca.us/

http://www.churchinChampaign.org/Home.html

http://www.churchincolumbus.org/gtca/

Gospelizing, Truthizing and Churchizing America (GTCA) is a present move of the Lord in His recovery to practically carry out the burden and responsibility to preach the gospel of the kingdom, to teach the high peak truths, and to establish local churches in every city, town and village in America.

Gosh, I thought the Urbana, Illinois campus...the longtime (until they could no longer accommodate 20,000 attendees) home of the Urbana! student mission conference sponsored by Intervaristy Christian Fellowship every three years (see www.urbana.org) was already gospelized, truthized, churchized and even missionized!

Advice to the PR campaign folks who wrote this stuff...if you don't want to sound...well, minimally silly and maximumly scary...just say you want to plant some of your brand of churches next to the hundreds of other churches in the area...rather than announcing that you're God's gift to Urbana...It seems that God has already mightily blessed this campus and tremendously gifted this area with LOTS of Christians eager to preach the gospel all around the world! Praise Him for that and thank God for Urbana and the intervarsity ministry that already has such a presence on campus!

[Shawn]

http://www.churchincolumbus.org/gtca/

I checked out the Church in Columbus site; No verses, only quotes from the ministry... how sad.

Shawn

[Old Rasputin]

Thanks for the link, Shawn. The application is bizarre. Have they changed that much or have I? A qualification for spreading the gospel is being raised in the church life? Man, they aren't even hiding it anymore.

[finallyprettyokay]

From the first link:



Paying a Price to Gain the Typical Americans
Published by raquel at 9:57 am under Ministry

After the recovery spreads to a certain nation, it should reach the typical local people. America was built up by the Caucasians. The recovery in the United States should reach the Caucasian people. If we cannot do this or we would not do this, we will suffer a big deficiency. God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)….Recently, I had a thought deep within me that the reason we have gained so few Caucasians in recent years might be because in our meetings we have a high percentage of people of other races. We do not practice the separation of the races as some denominations do. Nevertheless, because this is the United States, the majority of the saints in the churches in this country should be Caucasian. The other races should be a minority. If the percentage of those of other races in the meetings is too high, it will be difficult for the Caucasian people to be attracted to the recovery. Therefore, we must find a way to get into the Caucasian community. We are healthy in our teaching, but we are not healthy in our practice. We must reconsider our situation. I would like to pay some price to gain the Caucasian people. All the Caucasian brothers and sisters need to be burdened and consider so that they may be enabled by the Lord to find a way (Fellowship Concerning the Urgent Need of the Vital Groups, pp. 3-4).

This is just insane. Insane.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Old Rasputin

Thanks for the link, Shawn. The application is bizarre. Have they changed that much or have I? A qualification for spreading the gospel is being raised in the church life? Man, they aren't even hiding it anymore.

I'll pass your appreciation on to Only By Grace, who was the source of my link!

Whoops! OBGreceived it from Testing123, sorry!

Blessings to you,

Shawn

[Noah Body]

The columbus website says that the GTCA starts 8/9/08.
Well here it is 09/21/08 and the result is probably the same as always for their "moves" of God. Either nothing or very little. Anybody have anything to report on their "success"?

[Suannehill]

Well, I hold in my hands a rather slick and nicely done flyer.


Labor Day Weekend

August 30, 9:30 AM-September 1 12:30 PM

Titus Chu
Nigel Tomes
John Meyer
Vern Yoder
Paul Neider

Hilton Doubletree Hotel
Columbus, Ohio

[TLFisher]

I hope there will be cd's of the conference messages available in days or weeks following the Labor Day conference. Please update when information is available.

Terry

[Suannehill]

I have no doubt there will be CDs available.
John Meyer has them abundantly right now.
Sue

[djohnson]

Is this roster of speakers a reflection that they are all in agreement with Tomes and Meyers assessment of Witness Lee's erroneous teachings and practices?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Is this roster of speakers a reflection that they are all in agreement with Tomes and Meyers assessment of Witness Lee's erroneous teachings and practices?

Meyers is Myer. :rollingeyes2:

Years ago it was TC on the forefront of "change," using every opportunity to do a little "blended bashing," and for the most part deservedly so. As far as actual change, and his impact upon the saints, I do believe John Myer is ahead of every one else. As brilliant and as educated as Nigel is, it is extremely rare to find a brother with the genius of Myer, one who barely made it thru high school by his own admission. He is also the most gifted speaker. Paul Neider is a long time Cleveland elder -- from Mansfield no less -- who always tried to put people ahead of programs. He is the only one not full-time. For the most part, Yoder follows TC, and is the "surprise" of the group. Where's Norm?

The attitudes of all these brothers towards the blendeds is similar, having witnessed first hand the divisions and lawsuits. It is hard to say how far each one goes in his assessment that WL was the source of all "blended behaviour." This is a more touchy subject, which some admit in private, but becomes controversial in discussions. For years the saints got "conditioned" with the thought that it was TC was more spiritual and more closely following WL as the "true successor."

Now ... going a step further, and realizing that TC and WL and the blendeds are in many ways all the same ... may never happen.

[Suannehill]

I just got a call that beloved leading one Dwight Rader has passed on this morning.
Sue

[Suannehill]

Upon arriving home from Dwight's funeral I find myself with mixed emotions...
The brothers who shared were honest and loving in their testimonies...however...
His wife had requested that due to the large number of people that only seven people speak and she named the seven. This was announced as such and those seven did a touching tribute to our brother...however...
As soon as the final prayer was said...one of the new elders from the LSM side stood to speak...my husband and I stood up and left.
Do the LSMers have no respect at all? It was made clear the families' wishes...yet here they go...they MUST have the last word!
Isn't it enough that they stole 40 years worth of labor from the man? Must they inject themselves into his funeral too? It was the most blatant disrespect I've ever seen at a funeral.
Pardon me, but I am still so bothered within.
This was how every Lord's Table was ruined...the LSMers could not contain themselves!!!!
Dwight built meeting halls all over the Midwest, gave himself to repair and remodel wherever needed. I can't begin to tell you how hard he labored spiritually and physically. He designed and built the Mansfield Meeting Place that is now occupied by LSMers. There is no shame or conscience on their part. The building he built from scratch cannot be used for his funeral dinner.

Sue

[SpeakersCorner]

I don't know how to stand with you, sister, but your word touched me and I wanted to let you know. I did not know brother Dwight personally (I had met him) but have heard much of his faithfulness.

Peace to you and to all those aching from the loss of this brother.


SC

[Suannehill]

Thank you.
My husband and I just keep looking at each other and saying how bothered we still are by this. It will go away, but I think of his wife and how betrayed she must feel by ALL of this. We remember her and the rest of his family before the Lord.
Sue

[countmeworthy]

I didn't know this man of God who passed away...never heard of him but how heartwrenching it must be for the family..for you & your husband Suanne & those who truly knew him and loved him to be disrespected by the LSM.

All will stand before the Throne......

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

Dwight built meeting halls all over the Midwest, gave himself to repair and remodel wherever needed. I can't begin to tell you how hard he labored spiritually and physically. He designed and built the Mansfield Meeting Place that is now occupied by LSMers. There is no shame or conscience on their part. The building he built from scratch cannot be used for his funeral dinner.

Sue

Sue is right about Brother Dwight overseeing the construction of many greater Ohio meeting halls. Hence, he was quite a blessing. It's surely not easy to coordinate church volunteers, provide them with tools, and hope they don't hurt themselves ... and produce attractive and useful halls for the minimalist of costs. He and a few others would spend all day doing the challenging work and then prepare for the evening and weekend shifts when the "army" would show up. Often times that is more stressful than doing the work yourself! My father was a general contractor, and there was no way he would tolerate such "egregious work conditions." Dwight would literally spend months working out of town for other churches.

Many brothers learned much from working with brother Dwight. He could be tough at times, but he had a great sense of humor, and you knew ... eventually ... that he loved you. He was focused on the task at hand, but he did not sacrifice people for the program. Many times we Christians "oow and aah" over great ministers whom we have never even shaken hands with. I prefer the ministers who can work with their hands, rub shoulders, and really get to know. Dwight was such a person.

What a painful ordeal for his widow and family and friends to be excluded from the very church hall that Dwight himself built. When Dwight was a younger man, there is no way that LSM and her local operatives could have accomplished what they did.

[Norm]

Sue,

Many also had the same feelings about the last testimony as you did.

Norm

[Prayerful]

It seems that spirituality is not the only thing lacking in the LSM leaders. Basic humanity is also in short supply.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...

What a painful ordeal for his widow and family and friends to be excluded from the very church hall that Dwight himself built. When Dwight was a younger man, there is no way that LSM and her local operatives could have accomplished what they did.

UMMM yep!
IF anyone had dared to square off with Dwight and disrupt the Lord's Table like these LSM ones did...I believe he would have physically put them off of the property regardless of how many there were and how big they were. A Christian brother once tried to be dishonest with Dwight in a business dealing and Dwight said to him..."I'm going to punch you in the nose... and THEN plead the blood!!!!"
Dwight laughed and said it was not necessary to punch him the nose after that!
Sue

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sue is right about Brother Dwight overseeing the construction of many greater Ohio meeting halls. Hence, he was quite a blessing. It's surely not easy to coordinate church volunteers, provide them with tools, and hope they don't hurt themselves ... and produce attractive and useful halls for the minimalist of costs. He and a few others would spend all day doing the challenging work and then prepare for the evening and weekend shifts when the "army" would show up. Often times that is more stressful than doing the work yourself! My father was a general contractor, and there was no way he would tolerate such "egregious work conditions." Dwight would literally spend months working out of town for other churches.

Many brothers learned much from working with brother Dwight. He could be tough at times, but he had a great sense of humor, and you knew ... eventually ... that he loved you. He was focused on the task at hand, but he did not sacrifice people for the program. Many times we Christians "oow and aah" over great ministers whom we have never even shaken hands with. I prefer the ministers who can work with their hands, rub shoulders, and really get to know. Dwight was such a person.

Ohio, I had never heard of brother Dwight. Based on the posts, he was quite a brother, very loved, and dearly missed.

Terry

[Toledo]

I wasn't able to attend the funeral. Both my wife and I had planned to be there, but I had nearly three dozen family members in town from Ohio, Texas and Michigan. We could not get away.

I got to work with Dwight on four different meeting halls. There were lessons about the practical expression of the church I learned from working with him that I couldn't have gotten from a thousand messages.

It is God's mercy that he didn't have to see what so many of the local churches have become.

[Toledo]

I hope this post does not stir up a controversy; that is not my intention. I'm sorry if this is deemed "inappropriate", but I've been asked to share a bit more about my experience with Dwight Rader. All my experiences with him were frankly positive.

Suffice to say that my labor with Dwight was absolutely practical: we built meeting halls together. He did the general oversight and much of the carpentry; I did much of the sweeping.

I am no carpenter (I can tell which end of a hammer to hold, if I look at it for a minute), but I used to take several weeks off to "stand with" with Dwight in his work. I stood with him for the halls in Cleveland (twice), Willoughby (twice), Columbus, and Mansfield.

I saw him put brothers together in the most practical ways ("If you want to pray-read, go home! We're here to work"). I watched his patience in dealing with brothers who were incompetent (like me) or opinionated or both. I could see his personal concern for the safety of the saints, and for the careful completion of the tasks at hand.

Dwight had a harsh voice but a tender heart. He could take charge on the work site, then sit and weep before the Lord all through a church meeting. He caused those who knew him to love the Lord in a genuine and practical way. Dwight made me realize the churches are a whole lot more about saints cooperating together and loving one another, and a whole lot less about doctrines and teachings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I hope this post does not stir up a controversy; that is not my intention.

Toledo, welcome to the forum!

How can your post "stir up controversy?"

This thread is perhaps the only peaceful thread we ever had.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Toledo, welcome to the forum!

Thanky kindly, sir! I've been lurking here and over on the Berean site for a while.

Originally Posted by Ohio

How can your post "stir up controversy?"

Frankly, it would seem that positive posts with regard to the church life are often not well received here. My experience with Dwight was neither idolatrous, demonic, nor addicting. So I wasn't sure it would fit in.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This thread is perhaps the only peaceful thread we ever had.

Indeed, perhaps that's what encouraged me to write. I missed the funeral and I just wanted to say something about Dwight. He was a dear man and I'm glad his suffering is over. My Dad had Alzheimers, too, so I know how difficult that can be for everyone concerned.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Frankly, it would seem that positive posts with regard to the church life are often not well received here. My experience with Dwight was neither idolatrous, demonic, nor addicting. So I wasn't sure it would fit in.

Never mind that little fight we're having in the "back room" called "LCS factor." These are all wonderful folks here. Even those of us "sportin' a 'tude" are really nice guys. We just have to work out a few "details" in our presentation.

[Hope]

Hello Toledo,

I really like your theme verse. It is one of mine also. The Lord gave it to me shortly after the turmoil of the mid, late 80's. I have read it hundreds of times. Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance.

I appreciated your posts regarding Brother Dwight Rader.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Thanky kindly, sir! I've been lurking here and over on the Berean site for a while.


Frankly, it would seem that positive posts with regard to the church life are often not well received here. My experience with Dwight was neither idolatrous, demonic, nor addicting. So I wasn't sure it would fit in.

You have been reading your forums!

Ahhh ... Toledo, no "behind the scenes cesspool of politics" with brother Dwight?

I agree with you there.

[Norm]

The non-LSM side does not want to see any of the saints suffer any further. It has taken a large toll on both sides, both have lost members. It would now go to court and be frontline news. The non-LSM side feel it should not be settled in the courts.

The non-LSM have proposed giving the LSM-view side everthing and bring the whole mess to a conclusion.

The final wording is being worked out.

It is better to be wronged.

Norm

[djohnson]

Yup! Never wrestle with a tar baby. It's waste of time, money and energy.

[Suannehill]

Exactly my desire from the begining.
It's a little late now.
Damage is done.
Sue

[kisstheson]

Dear brother Norm,

I say a strong "Amen!" to the decision that the non-LSM side has reached. Yes, it is much better to be wronged. What a shining testimony you all now have! Surely the Lord will provide a much better meeting facility for those meeting on the non-LSM side.

You appear to be very well read, so I assume you are familiar with the testimony of Robert Chapman, "The Apostle of Love", one of the Open Brethren. He and those with him willingly gave up a meeting place on two separate occasions, and both times the Lord provided something much better!

Lawsuits against fellow believers are a thing that we need to leave "far, far, behind us". Thank you for sparing our dear Lord Jesus Christ the shame of another lawsuit amongst His people.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Norm

It is better to be wronged.

Nakedness, public humiliation, shame, bitterness, injustice...

Exo 15:23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
Exo 15:24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
Exo 15:25 And he cried unto Jehovah; And Jehovah showed him a tree, and he cast it into the waters, and the waters were made sweet.

[Norm]

The four brothers from the non-LSM side have signed the final agreement turning all the assets over to the LSM-view side. Now they, the Lsm-view side, need to get their 40+ signatures to close this ugly chapter.

Norm

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Norm

The four brothers from the non-LSM side have signed the final agreement turning all the assets over to the LSM-view side. Now they, the Lsm-view side, need to get their 40+ signatures to close this ugly chapter.

Norm

For those saints who apparently have "lost all," one of the mountains to climb is the gnawing feeling that the LSM side is somehow "right." Didn't they bring up all the accusations? Aren't they standing in oneness? Aren't they one with the ministry? Aren't they standing one with the Lord's servants WN and WL? Didn't the courts justify their actions? Didn't God answer their prayers? Don't they now have possession of the meeting hall? Don't they get the church housing? Don't they get to use the children's rooms? Don't the outsiders view them as being justified? Don't they appear to be approved by God?

Climbing this mountain can be the most blessed experience of their lifetime.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For those saints who apparently have "lost all," one of the mountains to climb is the gnawing feeling that the LSM side is somehow "right." Didn't they bring up all the accusations? Aren't they standing in oneness? Aren't they one with the ministry? Aren't they standing one with the Lord's servants WN and WL? Didn't the courts justify their actions? Didn't God answer their prayers? Don't they now have possession of the meeting hall? Don't they get the church housing? Don't they get to use the children's rooms? Don't the outsiders view them as being justified? Don't they appear to be approved by God?

Climbing this mountain can be the most blessed experience of their lifetime.

I suppose if there had been a "fair" trial and LSM won, those would be issues for me. HOWEVER, there was not. They obviously love the building more than anything else. Therefore, all means are justified to hold on to it, and anyone destroyed in their path is just collateral damage. They used family members to carry out the "deeds" by whipping them into a frenzy. Now, there will be sweet victory for the hardened core of believers and confusion (spiritually) for those used by them. They really need prayer to be able to keep a sweet walk with the Lord.
Sue

[AndPeter]

Here is a brief report on the Columbus Labor day weekend conference.

There was lots of refreshing ministry from Titus Chu on Lessons from the Life of Joshua, learning then leading the Children of Israel into the good land. There were also break-out sessions from John Myer, Nigel Tomes, Vern Yoder & Paul Neider on various topics as well as a separate stream for the chinese speaking saints.


Lots could be said. I think, however, that one good indicator is that the saints are writing & singing new songs again. After years of un-singable and forgetable LSM-slogans set to music, the creative spark has come back to the GLA saints. It's like the "good old days" when brothers & sisters wrote songs by the dozens based on their experience of Christ & the church-life. Some songs were good for one session & passed into oblivion; others lasted for decades as a source of joy & encouragement. Well in the GLA, those days are back! And back with a bang! A good 30 minutes was spent at the start of every session, led by different groups of saints--guitars (yes, some electric) , drums, piano, violins, cello etc etc. There was also an evening "Songfest" for saints to present their new & old compositions to those present. Some of the compositions presented show that the saints are having deep experiences with their Lord. [These sessions were video taped. I hope some of these songs can be posted on U-Tube].

Maybe other participants can add more to this thread.

Steve

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by AndPeter

I think, however, that one good indicator is that the saints are writing & singing new songs again.
...
It's like the "good old days" when brothers & sisters wrote songs by the dozens based on their experience of Christ & the church-life. Some songs were good for one session & passed into oblivion; others lasted for decades as a source of joy & encouragement.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth"

I have long thought the music that comes from saints enjoying God's life together is a way of tracing the move of the Spirit. The songs from Luther, and the Wesleys, and the brethren, etc. seemed to sweeten the operation of His hand.

Originally Posted by AndPeter

A good 30 minutes was spent at the start of every session, led by different groups of saints--guitars (yes, some electric) , drums, piano, violins, cello etc etc.

You guys are gonna burn in hell. You're only allowed to use a piano to accompany singing (I'm sure that's in the bible somewhere...).

[SpeakersCorner]

I have long believed music is a huge, corporate voice which both leads and follows every move of the Spirit and of the spirit (meaning, in secular ways as well). Music has been a big dividing issue in the LSM schism against the GLA, maybe even bigger than the One Pub stuff.

Up to this point, the GLA has been re-connecting with the Christian body in general via music. The kids are learning from Hillsong and others and are moving forward. There is still a lot of room for development in this area and I expect to see it.

I hope to have some links available soon for some of the new music that's coming out of the GLA. We're working on it.


SC

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

You guys are gonna burn in hell. You're only allowed to use a piano to accompany singing (I'm sure that's in the bible somewhere...).

J. N. Darby and the reclusives (oops ... I mean the exclusives) felt that even the piano was "worldly" ... calling it a "wooden brother."

And, by the way Toledo, you don't "burn in hell" for breaking the rules, you only get quarantined -- "hell on earth."

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Ohio

J. N. Darby and the reclusives (oops ... I mean the exclusives) felt that even the piano was "worldly" ... calling it a "wooden brother."

And, by the way Toledo, you don't "burn in hell" for breaking the rules, you only get quarantined -- "hell on earth."

The GLA spent many years limited to the piano.

[Shawn]

Hi All,

I am very thankful that I can be "recovered" in loving and worshiping the Lord in music, I had the great enjoyment of playing with the Pittsburgh group on Saturday night with our African brothers.

One thing, I was not able to attend the "Ephesians moment" fellowship on Saturday, could any who attended fill in the blanks for me?

Thanks,

Shawn

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

The GLA spent many years limited to the piano.

And acoustic guitars ... yes?

[Noah Body]

Didn't participate in the event but sure would like to hear the content.
Any chance the messages will be released as mp3's somewhere on the web?
THX

[Norm]

Brother Dan Rodgers went to be with the Lord late this afternoon. He suffered a major heart attack last night.

He had been quite ill for the last two years.

Remember his wife and family in your prayers.

Norm

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Norm

Brother Dan Rodgers went to be with the Lord late this afternoon. He suffered a major heart attack last night.

He had been quite ill for the last two years.

Remember his wife and family in your prayers.

Norm

So sad to hear this. I worked with Dan years ago. He came to his first church meeting in Cleveland to "save me from error," and then we both together were filled in spirit. He gave me the word, and I gave him the spirit. He was a genuine Baptist, only steeped in doctrine, yet never tasting the Lord. Then ... Oh the joy on his face. Dan would grin from ear to ear.

I loved Dan. We spent long hours together playing chess, talking about our Savior, and praying for his wife. I never did win a game of chess, but that didn't matter, because I loved every visit to Dan's house. Dan was the second Christian to befriend me as a new believer. He would test all things with the scripture, which was a great help to me. Dan's joyful laugh was always so contagious. I would start laughing just because he was.

Lord, do care for his wife and children.

[Toledo]

Years ago my wife and I used to have dinner with Dan and Rita every Thursday night. Then we'd read a chapter out of II Corinthians together (and follow that with a movie...). Their kids were friends with our kids.

I will miss him.

[Norm]

In memory of our brother

Daniel O. Rodgers

(September 24, 1947—September 19, 2008)


In his young and tender years
Dan found Christ his Savior dear;
But, as he grew his heart did stray
In that time of troubling days.

Dan began to seek for Christ
When a mortar crossed his life.
Like many in that foreign land,
He saw his life on sinking sand.

Dan returned, that Christ to find;
From that time he set his mind
To seek his Lord within the Word—
That truth became his mighty sword.

But that knowledge soon was dry;
Inwardly arose a cry.
His Lord was faithful once again,
His life in Spirit did begin.

He had weakness like us all,
Then upon his Lord he’d call.
His laugh from deep within would well,
As his joy again did swell.

But what shone above all else,
When in sickness or in health,
He preached the gospel to all souls—
For Christ a soldier true and bold.

by Norman J Minahan

[Norm]

A brother here in Detroit had a lunch recently with one of the leading ones in an LSM-view church. The one with the LSM-view was asked about the lawsuits which had taken place in the churches in this area and how he could justify them.

He fumbled around and feebly explained it as somewhat an action out of the flesh due to the fallen nature.

That is the most honest word I have heard out of their side to date.

[TLFisher]

I had recently read two letters (one from Titus Chu and one from Paul Wu) that contradict each other. Since 2003 I had given Titus Chu the benefit of the doubt throughout the recent turmoil considering I had never heard or read a divisive word from Titus Chu. One of the author's of these letters isn't being entirely accurate.

http://www.afaithfulword.org/reports/PaulWu.html

http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...erToPaulWu.pdf



Terry

[ABrotherInChrist]

Originally Posted by Terry

I had recently read two letters (one from Titus Chu and one from Paul Wu) that contradict each other. Since 2003 I had given Titus Chu the benefit of the doubt throughout the recent turmoil considering I had never heard or read a divisive word from Titus Chu. One of the author's of these letters isn't being entirely accurate.

http://www.afaithfulword.org/reports/PaulWu.html

http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...erToPaulWu.pdf



Terry

Just my thoughts.... I don't trust anything posted on A Faithful Word.org. That site is an LSM propaganda site, and they have often twisted and bent the truth to fit their agenda, especially with regards to Titus Chu recently. The Word they seem to be capable of being Faithful to is that of Witness Lee, not the Lord.

When they put in a quarantine against Titus Chu, they did so not following scriptural principles. They did not even try to fellowship with him (from any of the material available), they tried to dictate to him that he must follow their directions or else. Then they held a public lynching at Whistler which was a shameful display of their arrogance and pride.

If anyone is to be set aside for being divisive, the proof so far has shown that it is the Blended Brothers in California. They split the church yet again. Titus may or may not be innocent, but their mud-slinging session of 5 hours did nothing to show him as divisive. Independent, sure, but not divisive.

Anyways... If one of them isn't being completely honest, I know which I'd be looking at, but that's just me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherInChrist

Just my thoughts.... I don't trust anything posted on A Faithful Word.org. That site is an LSM propaganda site, and they have often twisted and bent the truth to fit their agenda, especially with regards to Titus Chu recently. The Word they seem to be capable of being Faithful to is that of Witness Lee, not the Lord.

Terry, there is no way to get "to the bottom of things." LSM has lost much credibility because they twisted the events, added WL's so-called principles, and threw in a huge dose of fear to all their readers. Even some "independent" thinkers were affected by their 28 booklet "attack pack" which came out of the afaithfulword.com. Few people can maintain their integrity, when so much is on the table.

I have concluded that nearly no one "under the ministry" for some length of time is able to properly discern using the scriptures only. LSM lives and serves and quarantines brothers based upon the events surrounding John Ingalls 20 years ago. If you don't understand what happened then, you can't understand what happened in the GLA. In fact, I didn't really understand what happened until I read several accounts of the first Brethren division ... then it became easy to understand ... it was a struggle for power and control ... and all the so-called "spiritual principles" are nothing more than "smokescreen."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Terry, there is no way to get "to the bottom of things." LSM has lost much credibility because they twisted the events, added WL's so-called principles, and threw in a huge dose of fear to all their readers. Even some "independent" thinkers were affected by their 28 booklet "attack pack" which came out of the afaithfulword.com. Few people can maintain their integrity, when so much is on the table.

In light of what happened in 89/90, I would hope there would be facts or a way to show DCP is bending what was actually said. Over the last 20 years I am biased towards what A Brother in Christ said. I don't think the brothers who run afaithword.org are liars, but I do think they spin what is said for their benefit. Whether the reader of afaithful.org believes the website is forthright, it's their prerogotive.
Please understand my point view. I have loved ones who are more apt to believe what afaithfulword.org says and what the blended co-workers say, than what I may think.
Since Paul Wu's letter was posted at afaithfulword.org, I gather he and Titus Chu were close co-workers at one time. I suspect either DCP edited the letter of Paul Wu's that was released for public consumption or there was an atmosphere of peer pressure that changed the brother's relationship? Otherwise, what are the facts surrounding the discrepancies?
At the end of the day, only these two brothers and the Lord know for certain.

Terry

[Hope]

Ohio,

I just heard a rumor. I heard that OSU lost their third straight BCS bowl game and it was to the hated Texas Longhorns. I hope this rumor is just that. Can you confirm?


By the way a year or so ago I heard an interview with the quarterback of the hated Texas Longhorns, Colt McCoy. Seems when he was in the 11th grade, his family was on vacation. They had rented a cottage on a lake. Around 11 P M they heard screams from across the lake. A woman was drowning. Colt leaped into the lake. Swam across the lake and rescued the woman. When the interviewer declared that Colt was quite the hero, he just dropped his head and replied in his West Texas drawl, au shucks, you would have done the same thing.

Hope, Don Rutledge

[TLFisher]

Here is the link to 2009 West Coast Conference.
http://www.westcoastchristianconference.com/2009/
It is being held at San Fransisco State University July 22-26.
The theme is: Recovering the Testimony of Christ

[countmeworthy]

Don't forget they just had a conference in Atlanta 2 weeks ago and then there is the Memorial weekend conference in Phili...all ahead of the San Fran conference...

Ho-Hum.... uttingtosleep:

[TLFisher]

CMW, please enlighten me about these conferences? Personally the speaking of Lance Lambert keeps my attention. The humility in the speaking is refreshing and adjusting.

Terry

[UntoHim]

Terry is not talking about a conference of the Local Church of Witness Lee/LSM, but rather a conference run by Stephen Kaung's ministry...see http://www.christiantapeministry.com/

-

[countmeworthy]

Thanks for the clarification Unto.

Sorry Terry.......the conferences I referred to are LSM/LC.
I can stop scratching my head now wondering what you meant by

the speaking of Lance Lambert keeps my attention. The humility in the speaking is refreshing and adjusting.

I don't know who Lance Lambert was...and my mind was wondering why you seemed to have such an interest in this man's sharing/speaking....thinking he was LSM. DUH!

[IDon'tKnow]

Around the end of Last year I got the impression from one of the conferences that the whole situation in the midwest had been cleared up. Now seeing as how they have moved on to excomunicating (sorry quarantining) Dong Yu I'm guessing that at least from LSMs point of view they've finished with Titus, now it's time to chop off some new limbs.

So the question is what does it look like down on the ground in the midwest, have they managed to smash Titus to the point where his followers are blown around like chaff in the wind, or is just a simple case off all the former churches in the midwest are now considered as being sects and they've raised up a bright shining new churches of 10 people from out of town or loyalists to replace it.

[UntoHim]

It seems to me that Titus Chu is going about his business in pretty much the same way he has for 30+ years. Maybe the big difference is that he has lost influence (and $ I assume) from a number of former "satellite" churches in the Midwest area. We know that nobody over at the headquarters over in Anaheim has produced one shred of evidence that he has "taught different" then Witness Lee. If anything, he follows and teaches Lee closer then any of the blended brothers. The whole thing really defies logic. Somebody closer to the whole situation can fill us in on this situation much better then I can.

As an aside, I remember that a number of LC/Lee critics predicted that, after Lee passed on, there would be major dissension and division, and much of it would be over "interpreting the interpreter". It took a number of years but their predictions proved to be prophetic.

Of course it is now apparent that quite of number of the blended brothers to-be have had it out for ole Titus for a long, long time. We also know that their claims that they are simply following through on Witness Lee's wishes belies their huge conflict of interest. If Lee wanted to "quarantine" Titus Chu he could have (and would have) done so with not much more then a lifting of his finger. He would have disposed of Titus just as he had done to all the others - simply stand up at the podium and declared him a "rebellious, evil leper" who let ambition and opinion destroy him. (and of course Lee knew it all along, he was just giving him a chance)

-

[SpeakersCorner]

The churches in the Midwest have been going through a period of self-examination, I believe, or maybe vision-examination would be a better word. They are at as many places in this process as there are churches. Uniformity is not the codeword here.

Most, maybe all, are happy that the LSM drew the line in the sand. It was liberating. But like liberating a housecat into a life in the wild, there are perils. Some are stepping cautiously into the new world. Some hover near other houses (to continue my cat into the wild metaphor) where it appears more safe. None that I know of has any inclination to return to the LSM fold.

Let me leave the metaphor and be more clear. A few churches here have questioned the whole no name business. Some have adopted names like "XX Christian Fellowship." This has caused some debate among the churches but it has been friendly and open. I have heard no condemnation.

Some have experimented with raising up new churches according to models used by Rick Warren and others: doing surveys, being seeker-based, having Sunday a.m. services that are short, modern, and friendly. Longstanding practices like having communion every week have been altered in some locations ... but certainly not all. Music, a big sticking point in the debate with the LSMers earlier, has broadened and now it is not uncommon for churches to use drums, have a band of some sorts, and sing a mix of contemporary praise songs as well as hymns from the old hymnal. But there is no standard practice regarding music: churches are definitely all over the map on music.

Our theology has not changed too much but the WL worship is gone. The ground of the church doctrine is under review in some places (not all). Long time saints still call on the Lord audibly in meetings and in their personal lives but this practice has definitely diminished. Young folks don't cotton to it. The youth conferences (Ignite, Mountaintop) which caused so much consternation, are still going on with attendance staying strong but not quite as high as at its peak. Of course, the loss of whole churches from the pool (like Chicago) is the biggest reason for this. But the novelty is off which is both a good and bad thing.

Numberswise, I think the general attendance in meetings in the Midwest churches is holding fairly steady. But it has dropped off in some churches that were hardest hit by the "storm." I know of at least two churches where growth is definitely occurring.

We continue to have regional conferences once or twice a year and attendance seems to be as high as ever. The speaking in the conferences is sometimes old school, sometimes new. By that I mean it is sometimes long, sometimes short and punchy. It depends on the speaker. The level of "anointing," in my view, is still very high, perhaps higher than a few years back before all the controversy. This entire controversy has opened up areas of the Bible in new ways.

The LSMers will use as proof that we in the Midwest were rebels and wrong if the churches here fail. That was the argument they used against the 80's "storm" with Ingalls and company. "Look at the fruit," they say. It is a legitimate yardstick ... as long as we can all agree on what the yardstick looks like and what it is saying. My yardstick includes a section that evaluates the amount of liberating truth that is coming out of the ministry. A stagnant message, ritualistic repetition of previous insights is not a good outcome. In this, we in the Midwest kick the LSM's butt all over the parking lot. But by their accounting, they have the anointing because they continue to commune with the deceased WL. (I yearn for the time when he actually appears and says, "Why have you disquieted me from my slumber?" But I digress.)

I guess you could sum up my view of things like this. The Midwest churches are in dangerous territory, perhaps a wilderness. They could fail. The LSM churches are in safe territory and will probably "succeed" if by success you mean continue for another four hundred years. But it's Babylon.

One last anecdote. A leading brother from Chicago recently reportedly said, "You churches under TC are a denomination." I laughed out loud when I heard that one. It's wrong on so many levels. First, we're not under TC. Second, we have less denominational traits than back in the good old days. We don't all even have the same name anymore. We have no institutional benefits. And third, look who's talking. A member of the group with a headquarters, a seminary, and an army of cardinals (but no pope yet).

The above represents my view only. Like all reports on any subject, it is biased and subjective. Some here will likely dispute aspects of it. I haven't been to every church in the area and some of my information is secondhand. But I think I'm pretty close to the reality of the situation.


SC

[UntoHim]

Many thanks to SpeaksCorner. Great insights and observations.

When all the dust settles, here is the most important thing I believe:

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

...The Midwest churches are in dangerous territory, perhaps a wilderness. They could fail. The LSM churches are in safe territory and will probably "succeed" if by success you mean continue for another four hundred years. But it's Babylon..

I am still really curious about Chicago. Are they still a firm and staunch "LSM" church that is fully in the fold? I understand that Jim Reetzke is a hardliner, but what about the others? I assume their are now "split" families there in the Midwest - kind of like the civil war when brother ended up frighting brother (one in the Confederate South and the other in the Union North).

I think some churches will fail, some will remain stagnant and some will regain their health and actually grow. The main determining factor will be the return to God's Word. This is what has been the salvation to any individual who has left the LC religion (system) and this will be the salvation of any former LSM church if they choose to stay together. My experience and close observation is that the more one returns to the Word the more one will find themselves at odds with "the ministry". Many of us have had to go through this "process" alone, and let me tell you it is a long and rocky road to hoe. (most of us still have pick in hand and still swingin away). I am actually very envious and even a little jealous of you brothers and sisters in the Midwest. There is strength in numbers. May God continue to strengthen, bless and encourage all them in this "dangerous territory".

-

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I am still really curious about Chicago. Are they still a firm and staunch "LSM" church that is fully in the fold? I understand that Jim Reetzke is a hardliner, but what about the others? I assume their are now "split" families there in the Midwest - kind of like the civil war when brother ended up frighting brother (one in the Confederate South and the other in the Union North).

Unto,

You are pretty much right. There are split families. I've heard tales of brothers who cannot talk to each other anymore. I know of families split parents to children (interestingly, in one case it's the children who went LSM).

Chicago lumbers on. But there is a contingent, a remnant if you will, who meet outside the "Meeting Place of the Church in Chicago"'s jurisdiction. They call themselves nothing, I believe. They aren't even the church with no name. They're just a collection of believers who once met in the LSM stronghold and no longer do, for a variety of reasons.

We are all brothers, of course. One day these trifling walls of separation will be blown down by the mere nostril breathing of our returning Lord. But today, they stand like cardboard fences, pathetic but somewhat effective.

I've had opportunity to "fellowship" (in my case, simply be with) several who camp on the other side of those cardboard fences. It was kind of like the North serving the South tea during a break in the action (it happened, I'm told). A tad uneasy, but once we had talked past the 800-pound gorilla, rather sweet. I do believe the rank and file saints in Chicago are grieved by the loss of fellowship with others in the region. They're just trying to follow the guidance they're receiving from the leaders. So I credit them there.

Chicago surely was the key for the LSM in making the break. But if I were the LSM, I'd be just a bit concerned about that church. My hunch is that there is an undercurrent there that hasn't bought into this whole LSM thing. It's just a hunch, really, but hunches are kind of spiritual now, aren't they? Time will tell if this one was.


SC

[kisstheson]

Hello dear ones,

SC - thanks so much for the in-depth update. Lots of very encouraging signs there! I have listened to many of the GLA messages to which you have posted links in the past and I do find almost all of them very encouraging and enlightening. The fresh seeking of the Lord which is going on in the GLA really comes through in the speaking of the GLA brothers.

Getting back to IDon'tKnow's question and comments. I remember almost one year ago, at last year's LSM Memorial Day Conference, there was some very strong speaking regarding the need to "retake the ground" in all the "rebellious" localities in the Midwest. In fact, this appears to be have been the seed from which "Gospelize, Truthize, Churchize America" sprang forth. So, while LSM is resigned to the loss of all these dear ones and all these localities, they will gradually be moving brothers and sisters from other parts of the U.S. to "retake" the Midwest. This process of bringing in "out of town loyalists" has already begun in Columbus, OH and Urbana-Champagne, IL.

[Ohio]

In Cleveland's recent summer training and posted in their latest Fellowship Journal, the following "Comments" were highlighted and boxed for emphasis ...

Our Christian life must be governed by the Spirit rather than ways or methods, even though we need "ways" to carry out certain things. If our Christian life becomes governed by some way rather than the Spirit, that is a tragedy. For instance, we should be careful regarding anything that can lead or drive our singing beside the Spirit. Anything of Christ that is deep or profound can be spoiled by how it is carried out. Music can help us touch the Lord, but music should not take over. It is because of this that I am a "dissuader" when it comes to the use of drums in the meetings. We should not be against the possibility of using certain things, but neither should we allow anything to replace the Spirit. What should determine everything in the churchlife is whether our enjoyment is of the Spirit, or of something else. ... The problem is that so few Christians really know the Spirit. -- Titus Chu, July 2009

My first reaction reading this was that the matter of "drums" was being used to signal a return to the old, old ways of dominance by "headquarters. Do you really think that all Christians who have drums in their meetings, qualify as "so few Christians really know the Spirit." If you think that this is just quote is just "one person's views," let me note that the LC where I formerly served, no longer has drums to accompany their guitars during music worship. They abruptly stopped using drums.

It is so-called "fellowship" like this which is how all LC mandates were disseminated from above. Standard Modus Operandi. If one would challenge this "fellowship," then leaders would diffuse it saying, "TC is just sharing his feelings, based on his experience." But leaders know there is much more to this ...

The use of drums or not is 100% cultural. TC doesn't like them, but instead of just saying "I just don't like them," he shrouds his "feelings" in spiritual talks to persuade others under his influence. He provides no scripture, because there is none. Any item of a million things in the churchlife could have been been inserted in the above quote to replace "drums." Could not the piano be used to "lead or drive our singing beside the Spirit" and "to replace the Spirit" thus becoming a great "tragedy." That was Darby's "opinion" about pianos, and the very reason why exclusive Brethren, to this day, have never had musical accompaniment for their hymns.

[countmeworthy]

The 'danger' with what people like TC said is they are inadvertantly or even perhaps purposely trying to interject THEIR OWN OPINIONS on what is from the Spirit and what is not.

There is some music where the drums played are beautiful and uplifting and there is other music where it is wayyyyyy too loud for me! And YES...some of it, perhaps A LOT of it is CARNAL. Do I go telling people it is carnal and 'of the devil' ? NO.....unless they ask !

I try not to concern myself with judging other people's preferences. I am more concerned with making sure I AM in right standing with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I also try to seek like minded people filled with the Holy Spirit and the Word of God so that I may grow stronger in Christ Jesus and be built up in the Spirit of Unity with the LORD.

There are a lot of people who blow a lot of hot air and are full of hot air. It is refreshing when we meet those who are on the same page we are in or even better on a higher plane than us.

[TLFisher]

The emphasis of the music should be about Making a Joyful Noise to the Lord. The music leads us to worship, but it's not the center of worship.
As for musical instruments, culture is truly a driving influence on what instruments to use.

What about the saints who have visited Africa, China, and other countries?What musical instruments do they use in song worship?

Being raised in the local church, there wasn't any use of electrical instruments. Where I currently meet, there is use of electrical instruments. It's not according to my cultural upbringing, but it's not right or wrong. It's about leading the assembly into worship through music.

Terry

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Terry

The emphasis of the music should be about Making a Joyful Noise to the Lord. The music leads us to worship, but it's not the center of worship.
As for musical instruments, culture is truly a driving influence on what instruments to use.
What about the saints who have visited Africa, China, and other countries?What musical instruments do they use in song worship?

Being raised in the local church, there wasn't any use of electrical instruments. Where I currently meet, there is use of electrical instruments. It's not according to my cultural upbringing, but it's not right or wrong. It's about leading the assembly into worship through music.

Terry

Nice job of 'splaining it in a nutshell Terry!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

What about the saints who have visited Africa, China, and other countries?What musical instruments do they use in song worship?

I visited a church (not Local Church) in Nairobi in the early 90s. Electric and acoustic guitar, bass and drums. Had a sound similar to Reggae. Some of the songs were familiar.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I visited a church (not Local Church) in Nairobi in the early 90s. Electric and acoustic guitar, bass and drums. Had a sound similar to Reggae. Some of the songs were familiar.

All the points about music are well taken, but what troubled me about that quote was the "spiritualization" of cultural preferences in order to control believers and churches under the sphere of influence of a regional LC leader. This became typical of so many things in exclusive settings, whether the Brethren or the Recovery. Leadership preferences get "spiritualized" and then become dogma for all his adherents.

The recent quarantines did serve positively to "shake things up," and then force many saints to step back and take a "good hard look" at many things that had been taken for granted for many years. Music was just one arena which the GLA looked at. They were delivered from the imposed bondage of LSM mandates to use "pianos only and the hymnal." The GLA LC's, for a season, had the liberty to use any instruments they desired in order to "make a joyful noise" in their worship of the Lord. LSM, of course, strongly condemned them for using such "gimmicks."

http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...orsakeGimmicks

These freedoms, however, appear to be short-lived. When the "powers to be" take away the liberty we have in worshiping the Lord in music, they don't tend to stop there. They continue to invade other arenas of the churchlife. If this is the case, then why not reattach yourselves to the LSM-promoting churches. Today you are told what instrument to use. Tomorrow you will be told what book to read.

[Prayerful]

I did some inquiry, and according to my sources, those attending the conference where TC spoke these words took them only as his opinion and not as an imposition. In fact, I am told that many (not all) of the churches around Cleveland, including Cleveland itself, use a variety of instruments, including at times drums and electric guitars. They say that there is a lot of freedom to make a joyful noise however the Spirit leads. The church that TC’s own son-in-law leads is very contemporary in this and all matters of worship. As a result, it is quite successful in reaching out to the community.

The inclusion of this short article in their magazine, along with the highlighting, etc, was entirely the choice of the magazine’s editor. TC probably never intended for these words to go into print as they did. Nevertheless, he did speak this, so it shows where he is concerning drums, etc. personally.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Prayerful

I did some inquiry, and according to my sources, those attending the conference where TC spoke these words took them only as his opinion and not as an imposition.

Thanks for this post, Prayerful.

I do know that TC's "opinion" does not influence all the GLA leaders like it once did, but there are still some with whom it does. Definitely. I know some.

But you bring up another point. Since TC is, of course, well aware of the "church that TC’s own son-in-law leads is very contemporary in this and all matters of worship. As a result, it is quite successful in reaching out to the community," then why would he voice his opinion at a regional conference? Why would he disagree publicly with what the Lord is blessing? He surely knows that his opinions are taken as "gospel" by many, just as WL's opinions were.

I have long said, to the effect, that TC "shoots himself in the foot" when it comes to the way he treats people and exerts his influence on them. He was not speaking locally, but rather regionally. He knows that his messages reach a wider audience, because they are posted online. As the leading minister, he should not be sharing "spiritual" fellowship to a widespread audience that will sow seeds of controversy among many of the young people.

Let me say plainly that I am not a fan of drums. I am not insisting on any instrument. Most contemporary churches use drum "shields" because the sound can be overpowering. Drums are just rhythm instruments. They establish a music "frequency." There is no way that a set of "drums," can be spiritual or not spiritual, any more than a piano. Isn't it just ridiculous that Christian leaders once viewed pianos as "worldly," but now see them as "spiritual."

Let's get back to the bigger point. I have repeatedly said that the recent quarantine was simply a power struggle between opposing factions. Leaders fighting leaders about who controls the sheep. Of course, all the "talk" back then was "spiritualized" with Biblical "principles," but it was all "smokescreen" for the real issues. The GLA churches felt the battle was about their Christian liberties. It was about the liberty to publish books. Liberty to pick what book to read. Liberty to pick what song to sing. Liberty to pick what instrument to use during worship.

TC's opinion is a step in the wrong direction.

Many other points were made in the recent conference that were also steps in the wrong direction.

.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me say plainly that I am not a fan of drums. I am not insisting on any instrument. Drums are just rhythm instruments. They establish a music "frequency." There is no way that a set of "drums," can be spiritual or not spiritual, any more than a piano. Isn't it just ridiculous that Christian leaders once viewed pianos as "worldly," but now see them as "spiritual."

Ohio, I share your sentiments. Drums are a rhythm instrument. They help set a tone just as a piano does. Not having learned to play any instrument, I respect those that do.

Terry

[awareness]

Ohio:
Many other points were made in the recent conference that were also steps in the wrong direction.

Hey bro Ohio. Good to hear your voice, so to speak.

I attend a Church of Christ assembly, and drums, piano, or any instrument is considered the opposite of worship.

I remember Lee putting the kibosh on drums and tambourines back in the early 70's, when they broke out in Cleveland. That spoke loudly to me. Personally I don't care of the use of instruments or no instruments. I like the enjoyment in the Spirit, which can be found either way.

And in Cleveland I was really enjoying the Spirit. Great meetings. The kind you can't wait to get to. And the drums and tambourines added to it. It wasn't the drums per se, it was the release in the Spirit that mattered. And that was good, and all of it was good, the drums too.

Then Lee's shoe dropped. Next meeting wasn't so good. That's when we were told that Lee said "NO! NO!

During that meeting, I walked out, into the balcony that surrounded the building we were meeting in, on the second floor.

I was eager for another meeting in the spirit, and what I got was authority as thick as butter. It was a real downer, a definite Spirit killer.

I looked out, over the rail on the balcony, and thought : If the Spirit isn't in control, and Lee is, what do we have?

By then I was drinking the kool-aid, and let it go. But the church was different after that. I learned that what Lee said went, even if the Spirit was squelched.

And meetings after that were far and in between that allowed the Spirit freedom. They were precious when they happened. They just didn't happen as often.

If I'm seeking to go with the Spirit, and I have to second guess what Lee wants, thinks, or commands, that's a killer. Probably, in reality, the meetings went on pretty much the same as they always had, but the problem was instilled me, by a new realization. I was changed by the realization that authority came from the "Command Center" way off somewhere ; didn't matter where, just envisioning it was a killer.

So TC is the leading minister. That just extends his reach, and extends the Spirit killing Command Center. If it's a choice between the Spirit and TC, which would you chose? To me TC would be packing sand. But I'm not dependent upon TC, nor anyone else. Let everyone live what he or she sees.

But let me guess. TC's reach didn't kill everyone. Some don't like drums. They're happy, and saying "No Drums! Amen! Amen!" They don't know that by so doing they let something else slip in. They didn't want drums, and were happy, but what they got also was, "Command Center." They'll eventually be sorry for that. It robs the Spirit ; the whole point in going to a meeting. If the Spirit's not there, what point is the meeting, unless we settle for religion, that is. Religion is a drag to me. Want no part of it. Dung is what it seems to me. Arduous. I learn the meaning of eternity trying to sit thru it.

But bro Ohio. We have to grow up. We have to grow to enjoy the Spirit anywhere and everywhere, not just in the meetings. And when we learn that, to hell with non-led Spirit meetings. Who needs 'em?

TC is irrelevant. So are the BBs. I don't owe them nothing, and neither does anyone else. But, to each their own. If you don't like it, leave. Find someplace else. Try your back yard. It's as good as any place.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember Lee putting the kibosh on drums and tambourines back in the early 70's, when they broke out in Cleveland ... I was really enjoying the Spirit. Great meetings. The kind you can't wait to get to. And the drums and tambourines added to it. It wasn't the drums per se, it was the release in the Spirit that mattered. Then Lee's shoe dropped. Next meeting we were told that Lee said "NO! NO! I was eager for another meeting in the spirit, and what I got was authority ... a definite Spirit killer. I thought : If the Spirit isn't in control, and Lee is, what do we have?

So TC is the leading minister. That just extends his reach, and extends the Spirit killing Command Center. If it's a choice between the Spirit and TC, which would you chose? ... But let me guess. TC's reach didn't kill everyone. Some don't like drums. They're happy, and saying "No Drums!" They don't know that by so doing they let something else slipped in. They didn't want drums, and were happy, but what they got also was, "Command Center."

In this regard, what TC has told us for years is really true, "Everything I know ... I learned from WL." For typical LC folks, whether pro-LSM or pro-GLA, there is no such thing as the question, "If it's a choice between the Spirit and TC, which would you chose?" What do you mean "choose?" Didn't TC "raise us up?" Didn't TC "establish the GLA churches?" Isn't he is one with the Spirit. Doesn't the Spirit speak thru him?

Exclusive systems always have one man at the top! The RCC has its succession of popes. The exclusive Brethren had Darby and his lineage. The Recovery had WN, WL, and now TC. Before the recent quarantine many in the Far East were saying, "Nee, Lee, Chu, Nee, Lee, Chu" I'm not joking, I was told that by a brother who heard it directly from TC.

My point is simple: The LC/exclusive system must have a leader figure who gets all the glory and has all the authority. He is today's "Paul." There is no plurality, as in "elders" or "ministers." WL's appointment of "Blendeds," the so-called brother "We," only ensured that WL himself would still be "The Man" posthumously, and so far it has worked.

One reason I left the "local church" is because the continued aggravation of not being "local" finally got to me. The "local" church is a huge farce. My LC operated on remote control. So many decisions were made locally, via the prayer and fellowship of all the responsible brothers, only to be dissolved by one little comment from headquarters. That was so frustrating. Why should we pray and fellowship in the first place, just "tell us what to do! ... you're going to change it anyways." Often I think back to how many times we gathered to "pray and fellowship" how to carry out the latest "move of the Lord" originating, not with the Spirit, but at headquarters.

Yesterday in Ohio ... drums were just fine. Today in Ohio ... drums are real bad.

Directives from the "Command Center" have "replaced the Spirit." As awareness so aptly testified about Cleveland, it is the directives from "The Man" which have "replaced the Spirit."

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember Lee putting the kibosh on drums and tambourines back in the early 70's, when they broke out in Cleveland. That spoke loudly to me. Personally I don't care of the use of instruments or no instruments. I like the enjoyment in the Spirit, which can be found either way.

And in Cleveland I was really enjoying the Spirit. Great meetings. The kind you can't wait to get to. And the drums and tambourines added to it. It wasn't the drums per se, it was the release in the Spirit that mattered. And that was good, and all of it was good, the drums too.

Then Lee's shoe dropped. Next meeting wasn't so good. That's when we were told that Lee said "NO! NO!

During that meeting, I walked out, into the balcony that surrounded the building we were meeting in, on the second floor.

I was eager for another meeting in the spirit, and what I got was authority as thick as butter. It was a real downer, a definite Spirit killer.

There is an interesting testimony from brother Doug Krieger, from the Berkely area in the late '60s. They had a jug band, & drove around on the back of a flatbed truck and played music for all the hippies & freaks in the height of the counterculture Height/Ashbury movement. According to Doug, the Spirit was quite prevailing. All the thirsty hippies were crowding around. Then Lee got wind of it and said, "No jug bands".

[TLFisher]

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all. I Corinthians 12:4-6

By this passage, it is very clear to many Howard Higashi had a ministry in music. Howard had a gift in composing and writing music. Through his music, many hearts were moved and many a spirit was touched. Based alone on the Long Beach Hymns, Howard Highashi had composed at least 66 hymns if not more.

Terry

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all. I Corinthians 12:4-6

By this passage, it is very clear to many Howard Higashi had a ministry in music. Howard had a gift in composing and writing music. Through his music, many hearts were moved and many a spirit was touched. Based alone on the Long Beach Hymns, Howard Highashi had composed at least 66 hymns if not more.

Terry

Interesting. I never knew who wrote what. I didn't even keep up with what was Lee's, although there were a couple that were clearly his and were there to cover some doctrinal point but never intended to be sung. (That being said, in Dallas we once did sing all umpteen verses of "Let Us Contemplate the Grapevine.")

But music is so important for many reasons. It provides expression beyond the words. It gives a way to make excellent thoughts stick in the mind and play through during the day. It is an art form that I will never have. I don't have a poetic bone in my body, and while I am quite musical, any three or four notes sounds like a song I already know that I can't get out of my head so I can write a new tune.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Howard had a gift in composing and writing music. Through his music, many hearts were moved and many a spirit was touched. Based alone on the Long Beach Hymns, Howard Highashi had composed at least 66 hymns if not more.

I remember hearing a song from Long Beach. I was in a room doing something, and the boom box was playing a cassette tape. It started like this:

"Thank You Lord, You died for me

You took my place upon the tree

All my sins were laid on Thee

You bore them all away"

I froze. I felt like I'd been shot. I literally couldn't move. I hardly dared breathe. It felt like God was there, singing to me about Jesus the Nazarene.

I walked over to the cassette player, and listened intently to each word. The song was so well done, simple and elegant. It was as good as anything by Wesley or Luther or any of the greats of antiquity.

I never forgot that moment. What a gift of composition that person had! I was greatly affected.

[YP0534]

Howard taught me a couple of them back around 1986.

There was a round based upon 2 Cor. 13: 14 and Rev. 22:1.

It was always one of my favorites but it required explanation how to do it and some people don't value the singing enough to make it worth the effort.

I think I remember singing it at a College Station conference, though.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Howard taught me a couple of them back around 1986.

There was a round based upon 2 Cor. 13: 14 and Rev. 22:1.

It was always one of my favorites but it required explanation how to do it and some people don't value the singing enough to make it worth the effort.

I think I remember singing it at a College Station conference, though.

Amazing. One of the songs I've come to appreciate is Good Samaritan.

terry

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Terry

Amazing. One of the songs I've come to appreciate is Good Samaritan.

terry

I don't know that one.

The other one was this one:

I love you, Lord Jesus.
I love you, Lord, precious One.
No other One
could compare to you.
Jesus, Lord, Jesus,
Jesus, Lord, precious One,
Nothing compares to you.

I remember him playing it on my guitar in my dorm room with his eyes lightly closed and a big warm smile.

He just really loved the Lord.

[TLFisher]

I read the following content from a letter to the Blended co-workers from Titus Chu.
http://www.jesusloversincleveland.or...kersJuly06.pdf

"What concerns me the most is your understanding regarding the local church. In 2004 Brother Ron Kangas wrote to Brother Ron Brubacher in London, Canada, an email in which he accused him of embracing “the notion of a local Body,” saying: “It seems you have embraced the notion of a local Body implying that the body, like the church, is both one “universal” and many “local.” Is this a correct definition of your doctrine? Do you believe that just as there are many local churches there are many local bodies? The idea of the local body as distinct from the truth that a local church is a local expression of the body of Christ lead to such a conclusion.”

It seems that Brother Ron Kangas rejects the idea that there is a local aspect of the Body of Christ. Yet Brother Lee clearly taught that the Church as the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12 is “both universal and local.” (W. Lee, Life Study of 1 Corinithians) Brother Lee’s terse statement surely implies the Body has both universal and local aspects. Moreover, Brother Nee strongly emphasized that the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians refers to the believers in Corinth, the local church there. (W. Nee, Further Talks on the Church-life) First Corinthians 12:27 says, “You (the believers in Corinth) are Christ’s Body.” [Note the absence of the definite article in the Greek.] We definitely “embrace the notion” that the Body of Christ is a “two-fold divine truth” revealed in the Bible, as taught by Brothers Nee and Lee, having both universal and local aspects. Moreover, we question whether the statement “local aspect of Christ’s Body” expressed in 1 Cor. 12:27 is adequately encompassed in the phrase: “a local church is a local expression of the body of Christ.” The apostle Paul did not say that. He said in 1 Corinthians 12:27, “You (the believers in Corinth) are Christ’s body.” Since this is a “two-fold” divine truth, the statement that there is a local aspect of the body is not inconsistent with the propositions that the universal Body of Christ is expressed by many local churches and that all the local churches are the expressions of the Body of Christ. We firmly declare that there are many local churches but one Body, as all the local churches are the expression of the one Body.

However, it seems that you brothers diminish the “local aspect” of the Body (even as you diminish the local church) in order to emphasize the universal aspect of the Body. You denounce any who talk about the local aspect of the Body as “embracing the notion of a local Body” (as Ron Kangas has done in his attack on the elders of the church in London, Canada). Such a statement risks denying the “local aspect of the Body,” and ignores the importance which Brother Nee gave it. Might not brother David Wang of London, and others who make similar points, be presenting the same balanced view of both the universal and local aspects of the Body, as was presented by Brother Nee?

I am surprised at the statement made by Brother Ron Kangas. How could he cut off a verse (1 Cor. 12:27) from the Bible? And if Brother Ron does not even see the sense expressed by Brother Nee in which all the local churches are the Body of Christ, how can he lead all the local churches? No wonder you brothers keep on de-emphasizing the local church by quoting what Brother Lee once spoke, that the local churches are merely the procedure. Dear brothers, don’t you all realize that Christ and the local churches are the basic commitment revealed to us by our dear respected brothers Nee and Lee. We should all clearly know that the universal Body of Christ is expressed by many local churches. All the local churches are the expressions of the Body of Christ. And not only so, but there is a sense in which a local church is Christ’s Body (1 Cor. 12:27). We firmly declare that there are many local churches but One Body, as all the local churches are the expression of the one Body. Dear brothers, I do not understand how Ron can even disagree with the Bible itself. If the apostle Paul wrote to the church in Corinth that, “you are the Body of Christ,” for sure the church in Corinth – a local church – is the body of Christ. Also, I am often grieved at your spirit when you speak that the local church is merely a procedure – a spirit of belittling the local church. My dear brothers, don’t you know the procedure decides the outcome, just as eating is a procedure and why we all pay attention to eating healthily. The local churches are a procedure. When the New Jerusalem appears, there will be no local churches. But the New Jerusalem can only come when the local churches are healthy – the Spirit is able to lead each church, Christ becomes the content of the church life, the Bible becomes the unique standard in their belief and practice, and the local church takes the stand which is inclusive to all the saints in that locality. Dear brothers, I am concerned about your clarity on this matter.

Moreover, I am concerned that you brothers may not be clear about the universal aspect of the Body either. Brother Minoru Chen has said that “the recovery equals the Body.” In addition, brother Ron Kangas referred to the (so-called) “seven feasts” as times when the Lord speaks “to the entire Body.” Yet, if the Body of Christ is universal, including all believers in time and space, how can you brothers declare that “the recovery equals the Body,” and how could an LSM gathering “speak to the entire Body”? If this is indeed “a body,” what kind of “body” is it? A “global LSM body”? Are you brothers clear about the truth concerning “the Body,” a topic you’ve repeatedly emphasized for the past nine years? Moreover, during the LSM Summer Training which has just ended, brother Ron Kangas conveyed the idea that believers can be in the local church, yet not be in the Body. Brothers, what kind of teaching is this? Are you brothers seeking to produce a two-tier system where some saints are “merely in the local church” and others (the elite) are in the Body? Where is this thought in the Bible? Where is this concept in the teaching of Brothers Nee and Lee? Do you brothers remember the illustration given by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, even if a member says it is not of the body because it is not a particular member, it is still a member?"

(Pages 11-13 Titus Chu’s Response to Blended Co-Workers July 22,2006)

Comments?

Terry

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

I read the following content from a letter to the Blended co-workers from Titus Chu.
http://www.jesusloversincleveland.or...kersJuly06.pdf

Comments?

Clearly, The Blendeds speak with forked tongue and from two sides of their mouth....

Their doctrines don't matter so much anyway, as they are into authority.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by awareness

Clearly, The Blendeds speak with forked tongue and from two sides of their mouth....

Their doctrines don't matter so much anyway, as they are into authority.

BB = Bloviating Brothers

[Suannehill]

An obituary in the local newspaper states that this sister belonged to the Local Church since 1955...SAY WHAT???????

...and of course ALL donations go to the Local Church...sigh...

Good thing they brought in those folks from Calif. to correct the history here!

[UntoHim]

They actually put a sister in the local paper's obituary? I thought only Witness Lee was worthy of that. Of course since she was in the Local Church before there was a Local Church(1955:veryconfused there I guess she's a special case

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

As we did some more research we would realize that Ray Graver says the lampstands all went out in the GLA when they wouldn't fall in line with the Anaheim Politburo and would think: "Hey this is what they do to their own coworkers, elders and churches within the system." Does anyone over there at LC HQ seriously believe we would want to have anything to do with that sort of "practical oneness"?

The lights went out at LSM many years ago.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Irony indeed! Once all the dust settles it's just the same thing on a different scale.

alwayslearning, I remember back around 2006-07, after I had been out of the LC's a couple years and articles were being written like crazy on both sides (afaithfulword.com and concernedbrothers.com), that I had this stark realization -- if those loyal to TC would just keep reading this stuff, they would eventually learn that TC is no different than the Blendeds. TC was engaged in a battle with LSM which was more dangerous than he ever imagined.

Today TC has little left of his vast empire. The number of brothers who still look up to him is dwindling.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today TC has little left of his vast empire. The number of brothers who still look up to him is dwindling.

Ohio, could you say more about this? I used to be in the Midwest, and I've wondered what's happened to that "empire."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ohio, could you say more about this? I used to be in the Midwest, and I've wondered what's happened to that "empire."

Can you look back at some of the threads where we discussed this.

During the quarantine, many of the brothers who had known TC chose to side with LSM. These letters are posted on their website. You can see who sided with the quarantine.

Some of the outspoken brothers, like Nigel, Norm, Myer, etc., who rejected LSM's quarantine, and stood with TC, today have little contact with him.

A huge number of GLA leaders, who once gathered together for prayer and fellowship on a regular basis, can no longer even talk to one another.

So much for the recovery of Philadelphia, the church of brotherly love, and the testimony of oneness on the local ground.

Ohio, I am familiar with the threads where this was discussed previously.

What I was wondering about was where you said this: "Today TC has little left of his vast empire. The number of brothers who still look up to him is dwindling."

The excommunication of TC happened a number of years ago. What's the situation now?

Is there still a large group of "full-timers" who go to Cleveland every month or so to receive direction? Or has that been discontinued? Does TC still maintain a publishing work, and is it given any credibility?

Among the Midwest churches who left the control of LSM/Anaheim, are they still in fellowship with one another, or are they exercising independence (including from Cleveland)?

I'm asking because I'm truly curious. I don't know what the situation is there anymore. I remember the conflict between TC and the Blended Brothers, but a lot of time has passed since then. The impression I got from your post about TC's empire is that things have kind of splintered in the Midwest. So again, could you say more, not about the events leading up to the excommunication, but about the years since then? You've mentioned that the elders in your locality were subservient to TC. Is that still the case?

Also, are the Midwest "saints" still reading TC's messages, and attending his conferences, or is there a lack of interest? Has there been an acknowledgement that TC was himself part of the problem for all those years when Lee was in control?

You get the gist. What's going on now? Has the outcome of the excommunication been good for the Midwest, or are the churches still stagnating while they claim the "local ground"?

[Ohio]

Try my best here ...

1. Things have changed since the quarantine. Many who stood with TC during the quarantine, are not close to him now. I like to believe that information provided on these forums have been extremely educational for some.

2. Yes, there are some FTers and elders who regularly meet with TC, and their churches sometimes use his materials. He still has helpers to polish and publish his messages.

3. As was posted in the past, some places which rejected the quarantine, are now distant from TC, such as Grandview Christian Assy and Cincinnati Christian Assy which are in fellowship with one another. Many GLA brothers, however, will not associate with them anymore.

4. Yes, things have splintered. The 3 elders of my old church is totally loyal to TC.

5. My place does review TC conferences, and of course attends them all. The ones who have left TC's controls have realized that being in relationship with him is just as bad as with the Blendeds. The elders in my place will say that TC is not easy to work with, but voice no complaints.

6. The local ground has become a discarded teaching for those who have left both Anaheim and Cleveland. John Myer said there is more justification in the Bible for head covering, than for the ground of locality, and that has alienated him from TC loyalists.

All the TC-loyalists which I know, have all become, over time, bullies like their master. Those who reject his nasty abuses have all been liberated to pursue the Lord without all the nasty baggage and entanglements in Cleveland. The liberation of brothers and churches from both Anaheim and Cleveland has brought them back to the freedoms of the Spirit.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

alwayslearning, I remember back around 2006-07, after I had been out of the LC's a couple years and articles were being written like crazy on both sides (afaithfulword.com and concernedbrothers.com), that I had this stark realization -- if those loyal to TC would just keep reading this stuff, they would eventually learn that TC is no different than the Blendeds. TC was engaged in a battle with LSM which was more dangerous than he ever imagined.

Today TC has little left of his vast empire. The number of brothers who still look up to him is dwindling.

They all had the same teacher!

IMHO regardless of scale or in what form (individual or collective) the whole idea and practice of having a MOTA is unbiblical for good reason. It shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers.

If the result of the fall out in the GLA is that Titus Chu is finally put in his proper place (not by the Anaheim Politburo who are just as bad or worse) but by the churches and their leaders then I think that's a silver lining.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

They all had the same teacher!

IMHO regardless of scale or in what form (individual or collective) the whole idea and practice of having a MOTA is unbiblical for good reason. It shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers.

If the result of the fall out in the GLA is that Titus Chu is finally put in his proper place (not by the Anaheim Politburo who are just as bad or worse) but by the churches and their leaders then I think that's a silver lining.

There's still lots of brothers who feel that TC should be the current MOTA.

And all the things you said how the MOTA -- shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers. -- still are occurring.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There's still lots of brothers who feel that TC should be the current MOTA.

And all the things you said how the MOTA -- shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers. -- still are occurring.

But thankfully dwindling as you said! BTW how would you quantify the before and after with regards to this issue? What does "dwindling" look like in application? E.g. of 35 churches in GLA 23 sets of elders still think and act like Titus Chu is the MOTA or...?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

But thankfully dwindling as you said! BTW how would you quantify the before and after with regards to this issue? What does "dwindling" look like in application? E.g. of 35 churches in GLA 23 sets of elders still think and act like Titus Chu is the MOTA or...?

Unless I attended one of their recent conferences, I could not provide accurate information on all localities.

Besides Metro Cleveland, the biggest GLA churches were Detroit, Chicago, Columbus, and Toronto. None of these places now view TC as the MOTA.

There are probably a dozen or so new gatherings in the GLA which are pro-LSM splinters. West of Ohio probably has only central Minneapolis, Naperville, Goshen, and a couple small places still with TC, all the rest are with LSM.

Let me repeat my appreciation for Titus. He really is a gifted brother. Unfortunately, he has learned all of Lee's bad habits of how to treat other brothers, with the exception of lawsuits. This mistreatment, I believe, is the primary reason why so many brothers, who knew Titus personally, agreed with the quarantine. They may have feared Titus, but they never loved him. They viewed the Blendeds as a known quantity, the lesser of two evils, and a better ministry resource for their congregations. It also helps to side with the majority, which was clearly LSM. Nearly all of these brothers had heard TC sow suspicion into them about the Blendeds for years, so none of them were naive about WL's successors.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There's still lots of brothers who feel that TC should be the current MOTA.

And all the things you said how the MOTA -- shifts focus from the church at a local level and usually entails undermining the local eldership. Everything becomes about what does the MOTA think? Did you fellowship with the MOTA about it? We have to drop everything and go hear the MOTA! We have to finance the MOTA. Etc. Ultimately such an atmosphere devalues the local church and individual believers. -- still are occurring.

The devaluation of the local assembly, and the individual believers, shows what has happened to "the greatest commandment of all", which is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor as ourselves. This greatest commandment, to paraphrase the LOTR trilogy, is the "one ring to rule them all" -- i.e. it is the one rule to which every other rule should be subservient. In the MOTA realm, as long as you have heard the latest MOTA message, are "positive" toward the MOTA's hierarchy, and are going along with the "practices" pushed by the MOTA's ministry, it matters little if the greatest commandment now has secondary or even tertiary status.

For a confirmation of the teachings of Jesus, not that we need one, look at Paul, who is in absolute lockstep with his Master in this regard. In Romans 13:9 Paul goes through a list of "thou shalt nots", then says, "...if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (KJV).

Paul's scripture is "briefly comprehended" in this saying. Paul's scripture is summed up; it is driven by, it is fully revealed by the rule: Love your neighbor as yourself. To the extent that the MOTA distracts, diverts, and confuses us from this rule, and I believe it does (see the various "rebellions", "quarantines", lawsuits, cover-ups, "new moves of the Lord"), then it should itself be relegated to tertiary status.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The devaluation of the local assembly, and the individual believers, shows what has happened to "the greatest commandment of all", which is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor as ourselves. This greatest commandment, to paraphrase the LOTR trilogy, is the "one ring to rule them all" -- i.e. it is the one rule to which every other rule should be subservient.

Never heard that before.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

The devaluation of the local assembly, and the individual believers, shows what has happened to "the greatest commandment of all", which is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor as ourselves. This greatest commandment, to paraphrase the LOTR trilogy, is the "one ring to rule them all" -- i.e. it is the one rule to which every other rule should be subservient. In the MOTA realm, as long as you have heard the latest MOTA message, are "positive" toward the MOTA's hierarchy, and are going along with the "practices" pushed by the MOTA's ministry, it matters little if the greatest commandment now has secondary or even tertiary status.

For a confirmation of the teachings of Jesus, not that we need one, look at Paul, who is in absolute lockstep with his Master in this regard. In Romans 13:9 Paul goes through a list of "thou shalt nots", then says, "...if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (KJV).

Paul's scripture is "briefly comprehended" in this saying. Paul's scripture is summed up; it is driven by, it is fully revealed by the rule: Love your neighbor as yourself. To the extent that the MOTA distracts, diverts, and confuses us from this rule, and I believe it does (see the various "rebellions", "quarantines", lawsuits, cover-ups, "new moves of the Lord"), then it should itself be relegated to tertiary status.

I can hear Albert, Bilbo, Pat C., or one of the other faithful of years past chime in now:

Don't you realize that to even think this way is to prove that you are not spiritual, therefore you cannot discern spiritual things?

And I have never heard this before either. But it is an accurate overlay of the way things work in the LRC. Dispensing and abiding trump works. The ground trumps the great commandment. And Lee, the Minister of the Age, trumps everything.

[Ohio]

For those who need their "vision" refreshed, how appropriate to dedicate this year's conference to the "Ground of Locality" ...




We are pleased to announce a mini-conference over the weekend of April 6th and April 7th. All gatherings and meetings for the conference will be at 3170 Warren Rd, Cleveland Ohio 44111. This time will include fellowship and ministry by various serving brothers from the area concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment. We hope that by the Lord’s Grace we could all be unveiled, enlightened, and strengthened in our revelation during this time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

How about that! Isn't God sovereign! Such an up-to-date speaking for our timely need! It's been years since I have heard teaching like this.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For those who need their "vision" refreshed, how appropriate to dedicate this year's conference to the "Ground of Locality" ...




We are pleased to announce a mini-conference over the weekend of April 6th and April 7th. All gatherings and meetings for the conference will be at 3170 Warren Rd, Cleveland Ohio 44111. This time will include fellowship and ministry by various serving brothers from the area concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment. We hope that by the Lord’s Grace we could all be unveiled, enlightened, and strengthened in our revelation during this time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

How about that! Isn't God sovereign! Such an up-to-date speaking for our timely need! It's been years since I have heard teaching like this.

Amazing Ohio. Yes, God is sovereign. Brother, I am concerned on the matter of "meeting on the ground of oneness". I hope there isn't any limitations on "meeting on the ground of oneness". In particular when it comes to distinctions of ministries. If you or I are limited due to ministry, how can there be meeting on the ground of oneness? Unless the base of the ground is interpreted on a ministry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Amazing Ohio. Yes, God is sovereign. Brother, I am concerned on the matter of "meeting on the ground of oneness". I hope there isn't any limitations on "meeting on the ground of oneness". In particular when it comes to distinctions of ministries. If you or I are limited due to ministry, how can there be meeting on the ground of oneness? Unless the base of the ground is interpreted on a ministry.

IIRC, John Myer got the boot because he failed to properly answer questions about the unique ground of oneness in the locality. At one point John even had the audacity to say that there is more justification for head covering in the N.T. than the ground of locality.

After this enriching and enlightening conference, featuring the basis of our heavenly vision, each attendant will be given a test.

[Cassidy]

[quote=Ohio;24298][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/I]Yet, [/FONT]Titus Chu's proxy on the internet (Nigel Tomes) states..

[/B]

[/SIZE][/FONT] [/I]We will see in April whether Titus Chu espouses the "one city, one church" dictum/mold that Nigel Tomes finds unscriptural and apparently disagreeable. Or whether Titus Chu will now publicly dis-associate himself from Watchman Nee's ministry and create his own definition of the ground of locality.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Yet, Titus Chu's proxy on the internet (Nigel Tomes) states emphatically:

Cassidy, based on what is Tomes a proxy for the "gravitational center" in Cleveland?

Now I realize you often scoff at "the professor's" papers, but why would you completely discredit his voice of scholarship as a mere proxy for TC?

Obviously you have confused Nigel Tomes with another absent minded professor of your liking.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Cassidy, based on what is Tomes a proxy for the "gravitational center" in Cleveland?

Now I realize you often scoff at "the professor's" papers, but why would you completely discredit his voice of scholarship as a mere proxy for TC?

Obviously you have confused Nigel Tomes with another absent minded professor of your liking.

Ohio,

That Nigel Tomes became the proxy spokesperson, on the internet, for Titus Chu in 2006 is beyond debate:

"Because of our stand on these points, Titus and I are accused of being “dissenters,” who “teach differently.”

"The allegation that Titus & co. are divisive..."

"We have never opposed..."

"What we oppose is the imposition of this restriction upon other workers (including ourselves) who do not share this view and never endorsed this policy."

"...why quarantine Titus?"

(QUARANTINE—APPLYING LSM’s ‘ONE PUBLICATION’ POLICY; Nigel Tomes 2006)


What I am puzzled about is the stated topic of this conference conflicts with Tomes' own views on the ground of locality. I suppose we will have to wait and see what Titus Chu and Nigel Tomes (assuming he is invited to speak) will say.

Will they be able to reconcile these incompatible statements?

[Ohio]

After the recent trauma in the LC's, with quarantines and lawsuits aplenty, I should think that any discussion about the ground of oneness in the Recovery would be utter hypocrisy and borderline lunacy. Hasn't anyone been paying attention to what that teaching produces? The more they talk "oneness," the more they backbite their own brothers. The more they discuss their "vision," the less they can tolerate one another. They are the last Christians on earth who should be ministering on "the ground of locality."

If any group of elders dares to focus solely on their own locality, they will surely suffer repercussions from headquarters. Cleveland has "politely" invited member churches for a conference "concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city," but should the elders of a church decide that their congregation has no need for this teaching, those elders will be marked out by TC. Like John Myer from Columbus, they will be called to Cleveland for questioning, and then found guilty. If they persist in their "independent" ways, they will be removed and blacklisted.

Their form of oneness is not optional. It is mandatory. It is forced upon its members. Theirs is really not a vision at all. Their only "commitment" is to their leader TC.

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are pleased to announce a mini-conference over the weekend of April 6th and April 7th. All gatherings and meetings for the conference will be at 3170 Warren Rd, Cleveland Ohio 44111. This time will include fellowship and ministry by various serving brothers from the area concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment. We hope that by the Lord’s Grace we could all be unveiled, enlightened, and strengthened in our revelation during this time.

Here we go again.
"We feel burdened" means "Titus has chosen this topic."
Why? Too many brothers and sisters have gone off the reservation, even meeting with other Christian groups.
So "the ground of oneness" needs to be emphasized once again. In other words, "Stay in prison! You are not allowed to leave!"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Midwest bro

Here we go again. "We feel burdened" means "Titus has chosen this topic."

Why? Too many brothers and sisters have gone off the reservation, even meeting with other Christian groups.

So "the ground of oneness" needs to be emphasized once again. In other words, "Stay in prison! You are not allowed to leave!"

Yo Midwest Bro ...

Glad to see you're able to decipher LC doublespeak.

Does that mean you have lost your "vision?"

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Midwest bro

Here we go again.
"We feel burdened" means "Titus has chosen this topic."
Why? Too many brothers and sisters have gone off the reservation, even meeting with other Christian groups.
So "the ground of oneness" needs to be emphasized once again. In other words, "Stay in prison! You are not allowed to leave!"

Midwest bro,

We don't really know how Titus Chu will conduct this. Well, I should say I don't but maybe you do seeing how you live there. However, based on the invitation banner I don't really see how he could embrace both " concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment" and these assertions from Nigel Tomes:

"….The Local Church dogma of “one city, one church” is not based on Scripture’s prescriptive teaching but on its descriptive examples. It rests on the a priori assumption that a unique biblical blueprint underlies the biblical data; all the “puzzle-pieces” are forced into “one picture.” When this axiom is dropped, different “pictures” emerge. Paul’s churches fit the city-church paradigm; other churches (e.g., Jerusalem and Rome) don’t conform to this mold. Insisting that “one city, one church” is the only biblical pattern amounts to using Paul to “trump”35 the other apostles (e.g., Peter & James). Yet the biblical canon documents the supra-local church in Jerusalem raised up by Peter and James, along with city-churches raised up by Paul. The supra-local church in Jerusalem/Judea is described in Scripture. House churches are also illustrated (e.g., Rome). Scripture testifies to each of these patterns." (JERUSALEM & ROME—CHURCHES ON THE LOCAL GROUND?

“It’s us, it’s us, O Lord, standing on the local ground” (Song) -
Nigel Tomes, April 2009)

Any two people could have three or four differing opinions between them but not usually when the one (Nigel Tomes) has been the proxy spokesman for the other (Titus Chu) on the internet for many years now.

Yet, maybe they have already worked it all out. We'll see soon.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Any two people could have three or four differing opinions between them but not usually when the one (Nigel Tomes) has been the proxy spokesman for the other (Titus Chu) on the internet for many years now.

Yet, maybe they have already worked it all out. We'll see soon.

Cassidy, I thought I already talked to you about this "proxy" stuff. You can no more say that Tomes was a proxy for Titus, than you can say John Myer was a proxy for Titus. You have greatly misjudged their relationship.

Even though both Tomes and Myer have spoken out about the deterioration which has taken place at LSM, and started writing about the same time TC was quarantined, both of these authors have really only spoken for themselves. Their disclaimers explicitly state this.

Both Tomes and Myer have also seriously upset the Cleveland status quo. Some of TC's loyal supporters won't even talk to Myer and Tomes any more.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some of TC's loyal supporters won't even talk to Myer and Tomes any more.

I can understand that about Myer, but why Tomes? I thought Titus and Nigel were on the same page.

Say more!

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Cassidy, I thought I already talked to you about this "proxy" stuff. You can no more say that Tomes was a proxy for Titus, than you can say John Myer was a proxy for Titus. You have greatly misjudged their relationship.

Even though both Tomes and Myer have spoken out about the deterioration which has taken place at LSM, and started writing about the same time TC was quarantined, both of these authors have really only spoken for themselves. Their disclaimers explicitly state this.

Both Tomes and Myer have also seriously upset the Cleveland status quo. Some of TC's loyal supporters won't even talk to Myer and Tomes any more.

Ohio,

I read your objection to my assertion that Nigel was a proxy for Titus on the internet. That is why I posted Nigel's defense of himself and Titus in post #61. I believe his own words from that article are more convincing, more compelling, for his being Titus' spokesman ON THE INTERNET than your objection.

With the passage of time things change and that perhaps you and I are only disagreeing when a divergence between Titus and Nigel occurred and not "if".

Yet, I wonder if Nigel will lend his support to this conference by even showing up and if so how he and Titus would reconcile these polarized statements and teachings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are pleased to announce a mini-conference over the weekend of April 6th and April 7th. All gatherings and meetings for the conference will be at 3170 Warren Rd, Cleveland Ohio 44111. This time will include fellowship and ministry by various serving brothers from the area concerning the scriptural revelation of a church in a city, meeting on the ground of oneness. We feel burdened concerning this matter which is related to our vision and commitment. We hope that by the Lord’s Grace we could all be unveiled, enlightened, and strengthened in our revelation during this time.

I understand that Cleveland has been frantically calling all the brothers in the region once favorable to them. Especially in churches where the leaders have distanced themselves from the manipulations and controls of both Anaheim and Cleveland, certain "select" brothers have been invited to this conference and special times of fellowship.

Is this any different than what Anaheim did 5 years ago in all the GLA churches, holding special conferences and training meetings to lure key brothers out from beneath their eldership in order to gain a stronghold in various LC's? When Anaheim used these ploys, Cleveland cried bloody murder. Now they are doing exactly the same.

So the "burden" of this conference has little to do with scriptural revelation or vision. It's all about "commitment." Commitment and alignment with Cleveland under the old format. How can this weekend's "ministry" edify these believers, if the featured topic is not even spelled out in the Bible? If they really wanted to equip the saints with this "recovered truth," one would think that Nigel Tomes would be invited, since he has written two excellent articles on this very topic. Cleveland has long complained that the Blendeds were always closed to any alternate views except their own. Where is their openness to fresh insight from the scripture now?

TC has always portrayed himself before the GLA brothers as the guardian of the pure word of God in the Recovery. He regularly pointed out Blended deviations from the truth. Now the hypocrisy in Cleveland is really exposed. All that "pure word" talk was great, since it enlarged his following before the quarantine. Now in the aftermath, "pure word" talk is not faring so well. In fact, their camp is shrinking as fast as the Blendeds. Hence the burden to leave the "pure word" and revive an old sacrament, the ground of oneness, supposedly the source of all "blessing."

[ZNPaaneah]

Fascinating. It is like watching the unfolding of the LSM franchise in slow motion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fascinating. It is like watching the unfolding of the LSM franchise in slow motion.

When I first began to study Recovery history, and not the pseudo-history presented to the faithful insiders, I was really surprised to learn that the storms I passed thru were no different from what happened in Taiwan and mainland China. That was a bit of an eye-opener. Eventually I had to let the facts of history detox me of all the history I heard from WL.

So when our past is no different than our distant past, then we should not be surprised when our near future is little different than our recent past. Such is the unraveling of events in Cleveland and Toronto.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I first began to study Recovery history, and not the pseudo-history presented to the faithful insiders, I was really surprised to learn that the storms I passed thru were no different from what happened in Taiwan and mainland China. That was a bit of an eye-opener. Eventually I had to let the facts of history detox me of all the history I heard from WL.

So when our past is no different than our distant past, then we should not be surprised when our near future is little different than our recent past. Such is the unraveling of events in Cleveland and Toronto.

They seem different to me.

1. We now have an account of WN that is not flattering, does not depict him as a martyr, and certainly undercuts the legitimacy of some kind of MOTA. I did not have this. By all accounts WN was a saint and hence his closest coworker could be given a certain level of trust.
2. We now have an internet which makes finding these things and learning about them free and easy. Will everyone check the internet? Perhaps not, but I expect a great many of those who first contact the LRC and their families will. The LRC focuses their gospel on the college campuses. How many of those students and their friends don't have internet access? Probably 0. There is no doubt that had I had this when I was first approached I would have discovered everything the internet had to say on WL before attending one meeting. If not me, then one of my roommates would have done the research.
3. WL's sins are readily available for all to read. Even when I was in the LRC you could never have learned any of this, even asking a question would have put you under suspicion. Today, any new members can google these same questions.
4. When I was in the LRC we had to deal with the God Men and the Mind Benders when we preached the gospel. Hence the justification for the lawsuits. It was difficult. Today look at what you would have to contend with. If things were bad then they must be awful now.
5. There is a long list of reputable brothers who have left. Although they were smeared I doubt that many of us on this forum still give those defaming remarks much weight.
6. Nigel Tomes is quarantined not from one faction but two factions of the LRC and yet he seems to be a member in good standing in his church with a ministry. That was unheard of when I first came into the LRC. So then, how many factions of the LRC are there? Is there a different faction in Hong Kong, Brazil, GLA, Anaheim, Toronto, Africa? That is very different from when I was first in the LRC. The point is, there is no powerful "center" anymore and there is no "prevailing ministry" anymore.
7. When I first came into the LRC we would travel around the country and fellowship with other churches. We went from Texas to Anaheim, Florida, the North East, northern California, Taiwan, etc. Can anyone do that anymore? That is something that has changed.

It may seem like more of the same, but in reality it looks like the level of decay is far worse now than before.

Perhaps moving from WN to WL was one level of decay. Then WL moving from Taiwan to the US was a second level of decay. Then Daystar brought in a third level of decay. PL brought in a fourth level of decay. The Blendeds were evidence that the end was near because there was no one of any credibility to take over the ministry. The quarantine of TC was actually evidence of the decay because TC didn't feel the need to toe the line. Likewise with the Quarantine in S. America. But likewise, people are leaving TC just as TC left.

It used to be that there was a "new" ministry with conferences and trainings that you wanted to go to. That is no longer the case.

It used to be there was a large network of churches that you could fellowship with. Again, that is becoming less and less the case.

It used to be there was a prevailing gospel work and the churches were growing in the US. Is that still the case? I cannot believe it. What I see is that year by year there are fewer and fewer churches that are still affiliated with the LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How can this weekend's "ministry" edify these believers, if the featured topic is not even spelled out in the Bible? If they really wanted to equip the saints with this "recovered truth," one would think that Nigel Tomes would be invited, since he has written two excellent articles on this very topic.

I understand that one of the "chiefs" from the TC reservation got "hoppin mad" when Nigel Tomes sent his recent article to the saints in his LC. Imagine that! It's not like Nigel secretly targeted these ones, as they have been on Nigel's mailing list for some time now.

I had heard a while ago that warrior chief and Nigel "don't talk anymore." See, God's truth still has impact on those in the reservation. Before they weren't talking, and now Chief Hoppin' Mad is talking again, perhaps not yet with Nigel, but talking nevertheless about Nigel. Perhaps reconciliation is on the horizon.

It's become so obvious how contentious this "ground of locality" teaching has become. It draws up battle lines to divide the brothers. It stands in opposition to brotherly love. Cleveland feels completely justified to covertly invite Toronto brothers, but when Nigel decides to openly and scholarly discuss this topic, then brothers feign righteous indignation. Is their "vision" that vulnerable to examination? Have not the recent turmoils caused anyone on the reservation to rethink their position?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's become so obvious how contentious this "ground of locality" teaching has become. Have not the recent turmoils caused anyone on the reservation to rethink their position?

In my honest opinion Ohio, when Watchman Nee endorsed this doctrine in China, historically it made sense. Christianity in China was very denominated. Set aside your denominatons and come together in Christ.
In the present state of Christianity in North America, many have come out of denominations and into community Churches, foursquare churches among other non-denominational churches.
Now the ground of locality teaching has morphed into a ground of ministry teaching. Here in Washington, one local church can say "we are meeting on the ground of locality", but if this local church is not under the same ministry as the other local churches, this local church is called a rebel church (as it was in the mid-1990's) or now "they're our friends". From your posts something similar has already happened in the Midwest.
A church can call themselves The Church in _____, but if this church is not under the same ministry, this church is not considered a local church. Just as the Plymouth Brethren have gone through division after division, the Local churches are taking the same course. My message: Set aside the ground teaching, set aside emphasizing a ministry, and just come together in Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

In my honest opinion Ohio, when Watchman Nee endorsed this doctrine in China, historically it made sense. Christianity in China was very denominated. Set aside your denominatons and come together in Christ.

I believe this is correct. It appears likely that the "ground of locality" was an over-reaction by scholarly young Chinese against British colonialism in the form of rigid denominational mission boards. Didn't W. Nee's so-called "perfecter," named Margaret Barber, who supposedly "raised him up" by publicly rebuking him, apparently the "great-grandmother" of the local church movement, have a falling out with her own mission board.

By the time Lee got started in the USA, the denominational strongholds were dying. That was completely due their stagnancy and the move of the Spirit during the 60's "Jesus movement" than any of Lee's teachings.

Hence, Lee was forced to maliciously attack "free groups" which were springing up all over. Genesis Life Study Message #54 records Lee's thoughts on "Free Groups." It is forever on record as one of the most judgmental, disparaging, and deprecating messages in the annals of church history. Witness Lee likens all those genuine children of God, born of the Spirit, outside of denominations in loosely connected "free groups," as today's incestuous children of Lot. His arrogance reached a "high peak" in that Genesis message. Today many of these free groups have become large independent community churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So the "burden" of this conference has little to do with scriptural revelation or vision. It's all about "commitment." Commitment and alignment with Cleveland under the old format. How can this weekend's "ministry" edify these believers, if the featured topic is not even spelled out in the Bible? If they really wanted to equip the saints with this "recovered truth," one would think that Nigel Tomes would be invited, since he has written two excellent articles on this very topic.

There was a time when the GLA Annual Spring Conference normally held in Chicago attracted upwards of a thousand saints, and that was the reason Chicago built a huge expansion to their hall a decade or so ago. Last weekend's conference was but a fourth of that, composed mostly of older saints and 2nd generation raised in the program.

Apparently the repercussions of Nigel Tomes' recent article "LSM's Sacrament..." reverberating from the saints' computers, forced Paul Neider and other "burdened" brothers to rethink their failed strategy. Instead of mentioning the "ground of locality" or the "ground of oneness," there was talk about the "city church" pattern in the New Testament. I have to wonder how many of the younger attendees showed up with Nigel's paper in hand.

Yet they still promoted the old schemes, that "God is one, He created only one man Adam, He called only one man Abraham, etc." perhaps lifted directly from Lee's book The Genuine Ground of Oneness. They even publicly acknowledged that the "city church" model in the Bible is merely descriptive and not prescriptive. If that is the case, then what good is it? Is not the apostolic record also descriptive of riverside meetings, house meetings, prison meetings, and temple meetings?

If the N.T. is not prescriptive of "city-churches" with the accompanying mandate of an uniquely exclusive "city-church-eldership," then why even discuss the topic at all. Why have a conference? Why waste people's time? Forgetting for a moment that the Neider household might not even be living in Cleveland, the question is whether Paul Neider is an elder over every Christian in Cleveland, or not.

It would have been far more valuable for Paul Neider to invite Nigel Tomes and openly discuss this topic. Employ a seasoned moderator, open up the scriptures, take off the gloves, and settle this thing once and for all! If it's in the Bible, then promote it fearlessly. If it's not in the Bible, then discard it with the weekly trash. Why play games and dress up this old failed doctrine in new clothes, promising "life-changing" ministry on their website?

Apparently the only folks not studying this old doctrine in the light of the God's word are the elders in Cleveland with their few remaining lackeys around the GLA, like the young hireling, Chief Hoppin Mad. For a group of churches so proud of their scriptural knowledge and spiritual riches, they should heartily welcome a challenge to the basic tenets of their Recovery foundations. Nigel Tomes' recent paper only served to highlight how much of their foundation was built upon the sinking sands of Nee's and Lee's doctrines.

The talk around the meeting hall water cooler during the breaks could be summarized as "Did you read Nigel's article? ... Nigel broke ranks with the brothers ... Nigel hijacked the proceedings of the conference ... " But did Nigel really do all this? Or was this really the Lord as the Good Shepherd and the Door of the sheep, leading them into a green Pasture. (John 10)

Ohio, could you say more about the conference, and the aftermath?

[Ohio]

In the conference Vern Yoder gave a message about "our oneness." He shared that we should be so "open" to receive other believers, making the point of his message that if GLA local churches found a group which was "meeting like us" then we would wholeheartedly welcome them into our fellowship. Yoder gave the example of what happened decades ago in Rochester MN, though he did not specifically mention them by name, but obviously us "old-timers" could easily make the connection, since such events have been so extremely rare. Quarantines and excommunications, by the way, are far more common than whole groups of Christians coming into the Recovery!

Interestingly, the church in Rochester, MN joined the LC's after Bill Freeman (then with the church in Seattle) visited them and ministered to them. Since Rochester was in the "Midwest territory" of Titus Chu, Bill Barker & James Reetzke of Chicago were sent to visit these brothers and bring them into the local church fold. I should note that during the recent quarantine, most of Rochester sided with LSM and Chicago, agreeing that Titus Chu should be quarantined for divisive activities.

It's hard to believe that Vern Yoder would mention such an old case to confirm his burden that the LC's are truly "one" and "open" to receive outside Christians. Don't you have another example that's less than a third of a century old?!? And what's the point? Even the Lutherans would zealously court a congregation willing to enter their fold. In reality there's nothing "one" and "open" about the way LC leaders like Vern Yoder treat other Christians. All of his conference talk was standard LC doublespeak to offer vain promises to the remaining faithful. Since Nigel Tomes crashed their party with his timely "LSM Sacraments ...," Yoder was forced to resort to false pretense rather than rekindle fear to pen up the saints with locality talk.

The hypocrisy of this message is just mind-boggling. Yoder and company are willing to cut off John Myer with Grandview Heights and Keith Miller with Cincinnati when they resist Titus Chu's abuses and dominance, but then publicly announce to all the saints that they are "one" and "open" to receive all Christians. You reject brothers who have worked with you for a quarter century, who are like you in nearly every teaching and practice, and then talk about being one with all Christians in the essentials of the faith, and extending to them the right hand of fellowship. That's like the Pharisees giving a message on Passover Day about the coming Messiah, while the body of Jesus still lies warm in the tomb.

What makes this exceeding ironic is the fact that Cincinnati actually did what Yoder was talking about, joining another like-minded congregation nearby them, exhibiting the real oneness and openness to outsiders. Of course, Yoder would not see things this way. He would mourn how those brothers are "doing their own thing" and have "lost their vision." I would ask Vern Yoder to reconsider what kind of "vision," and what kind of "oneness" is he is clinging to.

The real question that should be presented to Yoder is this: are you talking about oneness or "control?" Both Anaheim and Cleveland have a long history of ruling others like the Gentiles do, "lording it over them, and exercising great authority over them." (Matt 20.25) The Lord warned us repeatedly about this, but most LC leaders including Vern never got that memo. Both Lee and Chu were notable for how poorly they treated their brothers. Yoder and other LC leaders have learned far too many bad habits from their mentor Titus Chu. How easy it is to be charmingly nice and lovingly kind to first-time guests, yet brutally intolerant and disrespectful to the ones right next to them.

So I ask again, are you really seeking "oneness" according to the Spirit, or are you connected only with those ones willing to be controlled and submit to your leadership?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So I ask again, are you really seeking "oneness" according to the Spirit, or are you connected only with those ones willing to be controlled and submit to your leadership?

I think the key to understanding this, Ohio, is to realize that these LC leaders have no clue what oneness is. To them oneness is going with the program, being a yes-man, and never rocking the boat for any reason.

But that's not oneness.

Real oneness means you can fellowship with any brother or sister in any setting, with no judgment or agenda. Period.

The LC leaders are all about agenda. In fact, they consider being for the agenda as being one. But that's being a religionist.

A Christian who truly knows oneness knows how to drop his or her agenda in a heartbeat, receive brothers and sisters, and stayed focused on Christ.

People who stayed focused on Christ are always going to annoy people with agendas. People with agendas always think they are right about something and the rest of us need to get on board with it. Their method is to convince you that you need to go along with them to show you are truly a devoted Christian--aka guilt, fear and bullying. At the heart of that is arrogance.