LC turned me into a leftist

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I was involved in LC in the Midwest for a good 4 years. I was gained on campus when I was a freshman. Was very active on campus. Been to all training and conferences I could afford to go to. Loved spending time with the saints. Dropped out of all other extracurriculars by the end of those 4 years. Lost almost all other contacts as well.

Looking back I've never been that depressed or anxious in any other situations. The amount of abuse and stress I was under- kinda unreal to even think about it. Having lived with a racist/white supremacist roommate who was the personification of passive aggressiveness makes everything so much easier in comparison. I'm in grad school studying psychology because, one, I really want to figure out what's wrong with me and second, I'm so intrigued by social psychology, especially theories on cults and trauma. I made it my area of focus and I love what I do. I guess in a way I have to thank LC for that, haha.

Been in behavioral therapy for two years and I can't praise it enough. Therapy saved my life. It rebuilt me as a person from thought processes to actions. I was so damaged and biased and narrow minded I would literally gasp reading some of my old journals from LC years. I didn't sound like a real person; everything on those pages sounded very manufactured and... fake. I was so lost that I didn't feel safe to be honest with myself even, what a tragedy.

Going back to the title. I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years. The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups... Just unbelievable.

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways. And I don't have to figure everyone out, I can just accept people as who they are. My friends are amazing, I love my school, and I'm doing everything I can to help out my community and protect those that are marginalized. When we take care of those that are most vulnerable, we will all be better off.

That'll be it for today. If you've read till this far, I appreciate your attention and time. Much love to you all. Take care.

[countmeworthy]

The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups...

You hit the nail on the head... I do think they vilify Christianity more than they do the LGBTQ community. They have no clue how to point people to Christ.

Thanks for sharing...Blessings and God's Love envelop you leading you to all Truth

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You hit the nail on the head... I do think they vilify Christianity more than they do the OH BTW community. They have no clue how to point people to Christ.

Thanks for sharing...Blessings and God's Love envelop you leading you to all Truth

Thanks for responding! Appreciate it.
And yes, I totally agree. The LC vilify Christianity more than any other communities. Which is so strange... But totally fits into a cult's motives.

Thanks again, countmeworthy. God bless.

[aron]

Bateson's theory of the double bind was easily one of the most liberating things that I ever read. Godspeed you on your journey.

[Nell]

Welcome, QOTSA

You may be interested in several books written by a woman former member, Jane Carole Anderson. Her first book was The Thread of Gold and is her testimony beginning in her childhood through her exit from the LC. Her newest book is A Woman of Chayil [khah’-yil] which, in Jane's words, "takes an in-depth look at a huge, long-term sin in the body of Christ. This hidden spiritual cancer in the church has been growing for almost two millennia in the wrong relationships that exist between Christian women and Christian men."

In addition, Jane says:
"Let me be clear that I do not consider myself to be a feminist. Rather, I am a free woman in Christ. I have written this book from my perspective as a Christian woman who spent many years in enabling silence, having been subdued and suppressed by numerous Christian men who believed their wrong treatment of me was according to God and His Word. They believed that the Bible they held in their hands supported and even mandated their dominating behavior."

Jane made many of the observations you have made, but takes a different path which you may find interesting as well as biblical.

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jane-Ca...ole%20Anderson

Again, welcome--
Nell

[UntoHim]

QOTSA,

Thank you so much for taking the leap from "long time lurker" to "first time poster". If your first post is any indication, you will quickly become a valued contributor to our little forum. Please consider registering for the forum by shooting an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and include your desired UserName (I don't think anybody has take QOTSA yet!)

I had to chuckle just a bit at the title of your opening post. Of course I wasn't chuckling when I read "I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years". It's very sad and a shame to the Lord that any Christian group or association could foster an atmosphere of unrighteousness or injustice, especially to women and children. I'm sure you've been through some of the numerous threads where the truth has come out about the abject unrighteousness and injustice perpetrated upon sisters/women in the "Ministry Office" of the Living Stream Ministry. No public apology has come forth. Though Witness Lee and his son Phillip are now dead, many of the men who promoted and exalted them are still in leadership positions in the movement.

I did want to make a quick comment about the wider issue of being "turned into a leftist". If the scriptures are any gauge, God is neither "left" nor "right". If the record of the Gospels are true and accurate, Jesus Christ was neither "left" nor "right". Maybe the jury is still out on the Holy Spirit, but since He was sent by the Father and speaks only what the Lord Jesus tells him to speak....I'll go out on a limb and say the same thing about Him.

Seriously though, I do find it a huge failure and shame to 21st century Christians that the church in general is not widely considered as a promoter and supporter of social justice. Please understand I am not referring to the most "political" of issues per se, but only to the raw injustices perpetrated upon the most vulnerable in our society. God's people should be the first to come to the aid of these people, and not be heaping condemnation upon them. The Lord Jesus spent at least as much time healing the sick, rebuking the hypocrites and loving on the scored and outcast as he did preaching and teaching.

I will leave you with Psalm 89:14:
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.
-

Originally Posted by Nell

Welcome, QOTSA

You may be interested in several books written by a woman former member, Jane Carole Anderson. Her first book was The Thread of Gold and is her testimony beginning in her childhood through her exit from the LC. Her newest book is A Woman of Chayil [khah’-yil] which, in Jane's words, "takes an in-depth look at a huge, long-term sin in the body of Christ. This hidden spiritual cancer in the church has been growing for almost two millennia in the wrong relationships that exist between Christian women and Christian men."

In addition, Jane says:
"Let me be clear that I do not consider myself to be a feminist. Rather, I am a free woman in Christ. I have written this book from my perspective as a Christian woman who spent many years in enabling silence, having been subdued and suppressed by numerous Christian men who believed their wrong treatment of me was according to God and His Word. They believed that the Bible they held in their hands supported and even mandated their dominating behavior."

Jane made many of the observations you have made, but takes a different path which you may find interesting as well as biblical.

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jane-Ca...ole%20Anderson

Again, welcome--
Nell

Thanks so much for the book recommendations, Nell! Appreciate it. I will check them out.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by QOSTA

Thanks for responding! Appreciate it.
And yes, I totally agree. The LC vilify Christianity more than any other communities. Which is so strange... But totally fits into a cult's motives.

Thanks again, countmeworthy. God bless.

I appreciate your testimony about the LC. I was involved in the church for 13 years decades ago [ see my signature line.] How long were you involved with the LC? How recently did you drop out? I'm interested in knowing to what degree it remains like it was when I was in it.

[Cal]

The Old Testament is full of calls for social justice--usually concerning justice and care for the vulnerable (widows and orphans, who in those days were extremely vulnerable).

The Church can and should be involved in this effort. How can we say we care about people if we are not willing to help them with their most practical needs? Certainly everyone's spiritual needs are the long-term priority, but often their physical and emotional needs are the short-term priority--and sometimes the best way to affect the long term need is to focus on the short-term one.

I'm not for "back room and brass-knuckle" politics. But I think there are appropriate ways we can be involved and I think doing so gives glory to God and advances his Kingdom.

I think God is always pleased when we selflessly help "the least of these."

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Old Testament is full of calls for social justice--usually concerning justice and care for the vulnerable (widows and orphans, who in those days were extremely vulnerable).

The Church can and should be involved in this effort. How can we say we care about people if we are not willing to help them with their most practical needs? Certainly everyone's spiritual needs are the long-term priority, but often their physical and emotional needs are the short-term priority--and sometimes the best way to affect the long term need is to focus on the short-term one.

I'm not for "back room and brass-knuckle" politics. But I think there are appropriate ways we can be involved and I think doing so gives glory to God and advances his Kingdom.

I think God is always pleased when we selflessly help "the least of these."

Igzy! Thank you for this comment. I'm with you 100%. Maslow's hierarchy of need lays it out pretty plainly: Any spiritual pursuit simply can't take place unless people are fed, sheltered, and safe. It's pretty common sense. People need to face reality.

I took your last sentence as words of encouragement. Thank you. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by zeek

I appreciate your testimony about the LC. I was involved in the church for 13 years decades ago [ see my signature line.] How long were you involved with the LC? How recently did you drop out? I'm interested in knowing to what degree it remains like it was when I was in it.

Hi Zeek! Thank you for your comment.
I was involved in the LC from mid 2011 to late 2015. Had to move to a new place and start over because it wasn't easy to cut all ties.
I'll refrain from making comments on people in my LC because I'm still processing my relationships with those folks and it wouldn't be fair if they couldn't respond to my claims. My guess is the LC I was involved in might look very different from the LC you experienced. My LC was small, about 20-30 regulars, mainly comprised of young professionals and college students (it was in a small Midwest college town). Home meetings, prayer meetings and Lord's Table would take place every week.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by QOTSA

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways.

This part of tells me you are going to be okay.

Take care.

You too. God speed.

Originally Posted by Igzy

This part of tells me you are going to be okay.
You too. God speed.

Thank you for your goodwill, Igzy. Appreciate it.

[happiernow]

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by happiernow

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!

Hey Ladies,
I am a woman as well. I don't consider myself a feminist.. just feminine. I am compassionate person. I try very had not to be judgmental but I am cautious of controlling people. I am especially cautious of religious people!!

God bless you and may He use you both / us mightily for His Kingdom. He has our backs!

Carol

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hey Ladies,
I am a woman as well. I don't consider myself a feminist.. just feminine. I am compassionate person. I try very had not to be judgmental but I am cautious of controlling people. I am especially cautious of religious people!!

God bless you and may He use you both / us mightily for His Kingdom. He has our backs!

Carol

LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!

Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially. Boy... has he been SILENT on our very honest, forthright positive experience Bojobox and I had in San Diego.

I don't know why the Holy Spirit decided to shed Light on the church in San Diego. He is up to something. This conversation was GOD'S DOING. He used Bojobox to bring our experience to the forefront for a reason.

God bless Evangelical anyway. The LORD knows His sheep. Nothing is too difficult for GOD to do. The true believers, the true church, the BRIDE of Christ is NOT THE LSM. And He is going to purge the LSM. Don't know when or how. WAIT FOR IT.

Blessings to you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially. Boy... has he been SILENT on our very honest, forthright positive experience Bojobox and I had in San Diego.

I don't know why the Holy Spirit decided to shed Light on the church in San Diego. He is up to something. This conversation was GOD'S DOING. He used Bojobox to bring our experience to the forefront for a reason.

God bless Evangelical anyway. The LORD knows His sheep. Nothing is too difficult for GOD to do. The true believers, the true church, the BRIDE of Christ is NOT THE LSM. And He is going to purge the LSM. Don't know when or how. WAIT FOR IT.

Blessings to you.

Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially.

No, no ... CMW no one is ignoring you, at least not me. You brighten my day with all your smilies.

And besides, it's better to be ignored, than constantly insulted by some of the guys around here.

You and I are of the few who are willing to admit the LC's were once a great place to be.

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!

Thank you, Ohio. I agree with the misrepresentation you mentioned. A lot of what's going on in LC and Christianity is not a fair and just representation of who God is. May He be merciful.

O-H-I-O! Ohio rocks. God bless.

Originally Posted by happiernow

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!

Hi happiernow,

Thank you for your comment. I read your post (without details) and, my heart broke for you. Your experience in LC doesn't define you. I believe you and I support you. You're worthy.

I'm so new to this forum! Haven't figured out how to direct message yet. I would love to chat with you! You sound like a wonderful and amazing individual. Much love.

For the admin of this forum,

Thank you so much for allowing me to speak my mind. I appreciate that more than you think. Take care.

[UntoHim]

That's what this forum is all about. Please consider registering by shooting an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com (include your desired UserName) Then you will not have the inconvenience of your posts having to go through the moderation queue. In any event, I think everyone has really enjoyed your views and understandings of the Local Church experience from a women's point of view, something that is sorely lacking around this place!

Your brother who is unto Him
-

[Intothewind]

Thank you for sharing. You are not alone.

Travel, spatially but more importantly culturally turns out to be a great liberal education

[Nell]

Bringing more to the top...
It goes off the rails here and there...not unusual for us, right? Basically the topical part is from 2017, posts 1-10.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by QOTSA

The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC...
The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups... Just unbelievable.

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways.

Though it has been years, it is liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person. Though I'd say normality is underrated. Local churches stressed uniformity and not individualism. To be normal is to express to uniqueness we all possess as individuals.
The LC is not only patriarchal, it is a hierarchy towards women and men alike. "Know your role"! Not only that, but a system where brothers flourish with hypocrisy, double-standards etc. As long as a brother can stand up, speak, and parrot the ministry, his conduct, behavior, and manner of life can be excused with a simple "he's a good brother".
A brother might have a concern, a consideration. "That's not your place brother." Ideas and suggestions should come from fellowship. In other words tell-owship from the top down.
Women and men there's unspoken rules and unspoken codes. In relating to the opposite gender, in manner of dress, etc. As a man I've appreciated the liberty I've had with congregations I've met with since leaving the local churches. I can wear hoodies if I want to. I can wear levi's if I want to. I can wear shorts if I want to. No more do I feel compelled by the dark slacks, white shirt, and tie of the local churches. When I was single, I cannot tell you how many Sunday afternoons headaches was the norm. I count it as stress.
Intolerance towards other Christian groups. Not just privately, but publicly it was normal to use Lord's Day prophesying meeting as a platform to belittle and ridicule non-LC/LSM Christian congregations. I heard in the Church in Bellevue, I heard it in the Church in Renton, and I heard it in the Church in San Bernardino. By no means was it a one off or random. Those occasions I felt as the sole person feeling outrage having the meeting for this type of platform. It seemed by the vocal Amens, to belittle non-LC/LSM congregations was something to be celebrated. Don't you know these other congregations are part of the body of Christ too?
Hatred against the LGBTQ communities - not just one time or two times in the Bible, but if I recall 7 times it says to love our neighbor as ourselves. That's not a statement with conditions. Same applies to any distinctive features or traits that stand out for people to treat you with prejudice.
Something I have considered many times ever since I first became a father; what if it was my child who is lesbian or gay? I would not love them any less.