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Old 07-13-2017, 01:02 PM   #1
Boxjobox
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Default Royalties ?

I'm curious, does anyone know if Al Knoch and John Ingalls received royalties for their translation of the Recovery Version? Did John Ingalls receive royalties for his compilation of the Hymnal, and for his songs. Nothing against these brothers, I'm just curious of the LSM business set up. Did local elders receive any compensation for the sell of LSM in their localities? For pushing their products?
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Royalties ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
I'm curious, does anyone know if Al Knoch and John Ingalls received royalties for their translation of the Recovery Version? Did John Ingalls receive royalties for his compilation of the Hymnal, and for his songs. Nothing against these brothers, I'm just curious of the LSM business set up. Did local elders receive any compensation for the sell of LSM in their localities? For pushing their products?
Have you read John Ingalls' account Speaking The Truth In Love?

John talks about getting fired by Philip Lee, and his work was basically canned.

His name has effectively been expunged from all LSM publications, including the Hymnal.
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Have you read John Ingalls' account Speaking The Truth In Love?

John talks about getting fired by Philip Lee, and his work was basically canned.

His name has effectively been expunged from all LSM publications, including the Hymnal.
I'm asking about royalties-a percentage of the profits from each sell.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:41 PM   #4
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That posted phone conversation between Sal and WL over LSM business was quite eye opening. To find out that Sal as an elder had no clue how LSM was run, and that WL didn't want to reveal the set up made me wonder just what the elders really got out of throwing themselves and the church into the hands of such. I know the little potatoes (to borrow a term) that did the book room service were not compensated. But I kind of thought that the relation of the elders to LSM may have been quid pro quo. Was there any compensation to the elders for following the LSM scheme?
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
That posted phone conversation between Sal and WL over LSM business was quite eye opening. To find out that Sal as an elder had no clue how LSM was run, and that WL didn't want to reveal the set up made me wonder just what the elders really got out of throwing themselves and the church into the hands of such. I know the little potatoes (to borrow a term) that did the book room service were not compensated. But I kind of thought that the relation of the elders to LSM may have been quid pro quo. Was there any compensation to the elders for following the LSM scheme?
All authority flowed down hill, and all money went uphill.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: Royalties ?

Quote:
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All authority flowed down hill, and all money went uphill.
Here's a post summarizing a testimony of a Brasilian LC'er who'd once had the temerity to ask Dong Yu Lan where the money was going:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
This is an interesting testimony. What is striking are the parallels to Lee, even so much as DYL's son being put in charge of a business and the claims of money laundering. With respect to DYL and WL, the apple really didn't fall far from the tree. This is something that has been completely ignored by LSM leaders. They see those like TC or DYL and the havoc that is being wrecked (not to mention their own blended havoc), and then assume the problem can all be amounted to a brother being "off". Did anyone ever realize even for a second that the existence of TC and DYL can be credited to Lee? They both spawned from him. Just consider the life of King Lee, he was a one man show, claiming to be carrying out "God's move". He was viewed a sole source of authority and as God's mouthpiece on earth. It shouldn't surprise anyone that brothers saw this example and followed suit..
This lack of transparency, lack of accountability, and loyalty to men rather than laws, seen clearly with WN, WL, TC, and DYL, is culturally-conditioned such that #1 they don't see themselves as doing anything wrong; #2 they don't see any alternative as feasible to the current way of things; and #3 they explode with indignation if someone has the temerity to suggest that things might be otherwise. Whether Sal Benoit on the phone with WL or a rank-and-file lieutenant questioning DYL's "black box" finances, anyone within the fiefdom who wants to modify it will be labeled a "rebellious one" or "ambitious" or an "accuser" and will be shown the door. The system has 5,000 years of cultural accretion behind it, and as long as the Deputy God knows more Bible verses than the mass of people they lord over, they'll keep it that way. And the tree that these apples are falling from is oriental culture: WN, WL, DYL, TC are all feeding from the same root source.

Look at Singapore: not Communist, but Oriental. One family runs the show. People there go along because they'll be punished and ostracized as seditious if they don't comply; and because everyone in Singapore has a job, the trains run on time, the garbage gets collected, the electricity works - good enough. . . the culture values stability over the uncertainty of freedom.

http://www.asiasentinel.com/society/...-and-nepotism/

As do the Little Flock/LCs in their various iterations. Stability equals functionality and peace, while accountability and transparency signals instability and unrest. So in this system, everyone gets to be a "small potato" except the Deputy God, who's supposedly so transformed that they fly under a different set of rules, DG rules. And the main rule to remember is, "Whatever DG wants today is to-days up-to-date truth". No matter if it contradicts yesterday's speaking (early Lee vs later Lee), or scripture, or common sense, or apostolic precedent. The Deputy God needs "x" today.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: Royalties ?

John Ingalls compiled the hymn book and included some of his songs. Was all of his material as well as any other "poison" people's material removed from the hymnal?

I take it, with few exceptions, everyone from the little potatoes and up the chain were working for LSM or promoting LSM as volunteers thinking they were doing the "Lord's service", yet all the money chain was going to the LSM machine. I know when we were helping building the Ball Road meeting hall/ LSM facility, WL's house, we gleefully thought we were doing a service for the Lord's work. There was the thought that this is big, the Recovery will blossom. Little did we think, the recovery was all about $$$, and the ministery was just the vehicle toward the LSM prosperity.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
John Ingalls compiled the hymn book and included some of his songs. Was all of his material as well as any other "poison" people's material removed from the hymnal?

I take it, with few exceptions, everyone from the little potatoes and up the chain were working for LSM or promoting LSM as volunteers thinking they were doing the "Lord's service", yet all the money chain was going to the LSM machine. I know when we were helping building the Ball Road meeting hall/ LSM facility, WL's house, we gleefully thought we were doing a service for the Lord's work. There was the thought that this is big, the Recovery will blossom. Little did we think, the recovery was all about $$$, and the ministery was just the vehicle toward the LSM prosperity.
Everyone, including John Ingalls, was considered a Levitical volunteer, and only the Lee family benefitted financially at LSM.

The credit for all of John's work was given to Lee because John was branded a rebel and a "leper."

Building meeting halls was our "most reasonable service." In the end the Lord will reward His children for all their work.
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Royalties ?

I’m very curious to know if WL’s family receives loyalties from LSM....if so, how much?
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:13 PM   #10
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From Living Steam 2016 filing
Form 990, Schedule L, Part IV -

"Business Transactions Involving Interested Persons"


(1) KERRY ROBICHAUX SECRETARY/ DIRECTOR $29,800 RENT
(2) TIMOTHY GRAVER CHILD OF OFFICER $52,816 W-2 WAGES
(3) AMY GRAVER CHILD OF OFFICER $29,854 W-2 WAGES
(4) NICOLE DUSSELJEE CHILD OF OFFICER $27,870 W-2 WAGES
(5) JOSEPH PRIM IN-LAW OF OFFICER $29,878 W-2 WAGES
(6) YIN FONG LEE DAUGHTER-IN-LAW OF FOUNDER $75,056 W-2 WAGES
(7) SAMUEL LEE GRANDSON OF FOUNDER $59,406 W-2 WAGES
(8) JOANNA KUO DAUGHTER OF FOUNDER $28,542 W-2 WAGES
(9) PHILEMON LEE SON OF FOUNDER $40,635 W-2 WAGES & RENT
(10) VALENA WARDEN WIFE OF OFFICER $45,067 W-2 WAGES
(11) BERNICE DANKER WIFE OF DIRECTOR $56,163 W-2
(12) VIRGINA HAGE SISTER OF OFFICER $38,424 1099-MISC
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Royalties ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
From Living Steam 2016 filing
Form 990, Schedule L, Part IV -

"Business Transactions Involving Interested Persons"


(1) KERRY ROBICHAUX SECRETARY/ DIRECTOR $29,800 RENT
(2) TIMOTHY GRAVER CHILD OF OFFICER $52,816 W-2 WAGES
(3) AMY GRAVER CHILD OF OFFICER $29,854 W-2 WAGES
(4) NICOLE DUSSELJEE CHILD OF OFFICER $27,870 W-2 WAGES
(5) JOSEPH PRIM IN-LAW OF OFFICER $29,878 W-2 WAGES
(6) YIN FONG LEE DAUGHTER-IN-LAW OF FOUNDER $75,056 W-2 WAGES
(7) SAMUEL LEE GRANDSON OF FOUNDER $59,406 W-2 WAGES
(8) JOANNA KUO DAUGHTER OF FOUNDER $28,542 W-2 WAGES
(9) PHILEMON LEE SON OF FOUNDER $40,635 W-2 WAGES & RENT
(10) VALENA WARDEN WIFE OF OFFICER $45,067 W-2 WAGES
(11) BERNICE DANKER WIFE OF DIRECTOR $56,163 W-2
(12) VIRGINA HAGE SISTER OF OFFICER $38,424 1099-MISC

Who are these people anyway? Are they getting paid by LSM?
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Old 05-30-2019, 05:07 PM   #12
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To UntoHim:The LSM 2013 IRS return used to be available on the Net, but now it seems to be under the control of some entity called Scrib'd.
Nothing else seems to show up? Have any insights on this?
Thank you.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:08 AM   #13
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To All:

There is a website called Charity Navigator
Link to Charity Navigator
that monitors and rates 501(c)(3) charities. The Living Steam Ministry used to be rated by Charity Navigator, but at some point CN dropped them from their ratings because Living Stream Ministry no longer meets their standard for transparency. I was told this directly from an employee of Charity Navigator.

Charity Navigator does, however, still maintain a list of Living Stream Ministry's 990 filings for the years 2012-2016. You do have to register your email in order to view these 990 filings. Living Stream's assets are listed at just over 100 million dollars on the 2016 990 filing, which is the most recent available. The list of "Interested Persons" and their salary/benefits I posted here comes from the 2016 990 filing. All the officers and directors and their salary and benefits is listed on this form as well. Benson Phillips is still listed as LSM President. Ray Graver is listed as the treasure.


Quote:
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Who are these people anyway? Are they getting paid by LSM?
I think the 990 forum speaks for itself. The persons listed as relatives "of the founder" are just that - Direct relatives of Witness Lee. I am not sure if royalties paid to any of the Lee family are required to be reported on these 990 forms. I do know that a number of years ago some of Lee's kids demanded that they be paid more royalties than they had already received or were receiving at the time. A memo/email that was leaked or mistakenly posted on the Internet related the situation to some of the LSM board directors and they were going to have an emergency board meeting with some of Lee's children present. To my knowledge, no information about the results of this board meeting were ever publicly released.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Living Stream's assets are listed at just over 100 million dollars on the 2016 990 filing, which is the most recent available. The list of "Interested Persons" and their salary/benefits I posted here comes from the 2016 990 filing. All the officers and directors and their salary and benefits is listed on this form as well. Benson Phillips is still listed as LSM President. Ray Graver is listed as the treasure.
Lee has openly condemned every other Christian ministry for the exact same things they are guilty of.

100 million dollars? And they could not reimburse Daystar losses? And they still demand LC member contributions for DCP legal expenses? And they held training sessions to assist local dissidents to sue GLA LC's (Toronto, Mansfield, Columbus, etc.) for their assets?
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Old Yesterday, 12:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Royalties ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I’m very curious to know if WL’s family receives loyalties from LSM....if so, how much?
According to Philip Lin in his book Sacrifice and Sail On, the answer is no. Skeptical as I am, documentation would be more convincing.
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Old Yesterday, 12:46 PM   #16
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There is plenty of documentation. Philip Lin doesn't know what he's talking about. Lee's kids/family are receiving "salaries" and other benefits. Some of them are recorded on the 990 forms just posted recently.
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Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM   #17
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I really couldn't care if every Lee family member had their fingers in the cookie jar since the day he began Stream publishers. It's only money. Think about how much they have wasted on all the lawsuits, one of which they took to the SCOTUS. It's hard to find a politician or businessman, and WL was basically both, who is not a crook and a liar.

Why didn't WL just give his boys an allowance? Pay them off every month just to behave themselves. Why put them in charge of the saints? Why place them in charge of failed church businesses? Why let them manage the ministry "office."

Because this allowed his boys to be predators. WL gave them a fresh supply of victims, aka ministry volunteers. Kind of like how Joe Paterno enabled Jerry Sandusky.
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