The question is: Can a group of believers practicing....

Shawn · 10-28-2008, 08:44 AM

Brothers and Sisters,

The question is: Can a group of believers practicing the church life as outlined in the ministries of Witness Lee and watchman Nee have a victorious Christian experience, individually as well as corporately, with the given that the abusive leadership issues that plauged certain localities, never materialized in this hypothetical church.

Specifically, can the teaching of the ground of the church lead to a true oneness if practiced as it was written, or is it doomed to failure.

The answer to this question is crucial to a post LSM church life in determining if the ministries of Nee and Lee can be re considered in the light of the whole Christian community and applied with positive results, or are there serious flaws that would lead to the eventual down fall of any attempt to practice what has been preached by thes two brothers?

Thanks,

Shawn

Nell · 10-28-2008, 10:09 AM

Shawn,

I'm not sure our Christian lives or practices should be judged on "failure" or "success". If failure or success is the standard, it becomes subjective and depends on who is doing the judging. Some have determined that the life of Jesus Christ ended in failure when he was crucified on the cross with two criminals.

Any teaching that depends on the proper execution thereof by man or a group of men, has already failed. Even the fact that these kind of questions are still being asked, indicates impending failure.

Christ gave himself for the church, and He told us He would build it. Men have been getting in His way ever since. His job is to build the church. My job is to trust and obey. This removes "success" and "failure" from the picture. It also removes questionable teachings like "ground of the church" from the picture. Christ plus nothing.

Even if you succeed at WL and WN teachings, what does it mean? Success at practicing Lee's teachings brings glory to Lee? Glory to Nee? In this case, we have succeeded to fail.

Just another perspective ...

Nell

Cal · 10-28-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn

Brothers and Sisters,

The question is: Can a group of believers practicing the church life as outlined in the ministries of Witness Lee and watchman Nee have a victorious Christian experience, individually as well as corporately, with the given that the abusive leadership issues that plauged certain localities, never materialized in this hypothetical church.

Shawn,

Very, very good question.

Read my signature below. My opinion is that the local ground teaching is by nature guaranteed to lead to abuse.

Igzy

UntoHim · 10-28-2008, 07:58 PM

Yes Shawn, very, very good and thoughtful questions! So good that I though they deserve their very own thread.

Here is a question well worth our consideration on this forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn

...The answer to this question is crucial to a post LSM church life in determining if the ministries of Nee and Lee can be re considered in the light of the whole Christian community and applied with positive results, or are there serious flaws that would lead to the eventual down fall of any attempt to practice what has been preached by thes two brothers?

YP0534 · 10-29-2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn

Brothers and Sisters,

The question is: Can a group of believers practicing the church life as outlined in the ministries of Witness Lee and watchman Nee have a victorious Christian experience, individually as well as corporately, with the given that the abusive leadership issues that plauged certain localities, never materialized in this hypothetical church.

Specifically, can the teaching of the ground of the church lead to a true oneness if practiced as it was written, or is it doomed to failure.

My brief answer is that the "local church" as envisioned within the Local Church is doomed to failure because of its subtle and hidden "universal church" concept. Nee and Lee never saw this issue. Their writings all reflect an entirely unexplored belief that their efforts, and ours, should be directed to benefit the "universal church," which efforts, of course, especially involve those focused on the "local church." They are not unique to wearing these religious blinders, of course, but if their teachings are practiced "as written" the same denomination will inevitably result.

On the other hand, I don't know of any way to go on but to exercise to have practical oneness with all the believers around me where I live. Much of what these two wrote was an expanding on this fundamental principle. So, I would not recommend ignoring what they wrote altogether, as a seeming majority here do. If you keep in mind the Lord's promise that wherever two or more are gathered in His name, there He is, you can avoid many of the problems in their writings. Because of their "universal church" concept, they also wander off into promoting religious observances that must be avoided. Lee was more inclined to do this than Nee, according to my readings to date.

You care for your meetings with those believers you meet every day and struggle to maintain oneness in the reality of the Spirit in assembling with them. God will be present with you in glory, building will result, and His eternal purpose will be fulfilled. At the end of the day, focusing on being scriptural isn't going to build anything but a denomination (i.e. a "universal church") no matter how good the doctrine is, even if that doctrine is called "the ground of the church."

Nell · 10-29-2008, 06:08 AM

YP0534 and all--

I made a big mistake. I was replying to your post #5 and accidently ended up editing it instead. I'm the moderator on this board, so I have that ability. It wasn't my intention to edit your post at all and I apologize for my mistake. Please forgive me.

I think I got your post back from the email I received when you posted. Please check to make sure this is correct. Do you have a copy? Please accept my apology. I'm so sorry. I'll pay more attention next time.

Nell

YP0534 · 10-29-2008, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

YP0534 and all--

I made a big mistake. I was replying to your post #5 and accidently ended up editing it instead. I'm the moderator on this board, so I have that ability. It wasn't my intention to edit your post at all and I apologize for my mistake. Please forgive me.

I think I got your post back from the email I received when you posted. Please check to make sure this is correct. Do you have a copy? Please accept my apology. I'm so sorry. I'll pay more attention next time.

Nell

I didn't get a notice but if it's changed, I like the improvement.

I'm cool.

Nell · 10-29-2008, 07:23 AM

Thanks, YP--Nell

YP0534 · 10-29-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks, YP--Nell

and thank you for a chance to FINALLY use the "cool" smiley!

I hope you'll go ahead with your reply now and try to go easy on me.

countmeworthy · 10-29-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn

Brothers and Sisters,

The question is: Can a group of believers practicing the church life as outlined in the ministries of Witness Lee and watchman Nee have a victorious Christian experience, individually as well as corporately, with the given that the abusive leadership issues that plauged certain localities, never materialized in this hypothetical church.

Specifically, can the teaching of the ground of the church lead to a true oneness if practiced as it was written, or is it doomed to failure.

Hi Shawn,

Grace to you, (dear friend and brother) and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [Ephesians 1:2]

First off...let's remember, any religious or made made work OUTSIDE of GOD'S True Word is going to fail and be burned up as wood, hay and stubble.

So if the church life is practiced according to Lee and Nee's teachings and not the anointing of the Holy Spirit, it is going to fail.

Now let's say for a moment, they had a true revelation of the church life according to the Word of God and did their best to present the vision given to them by God our Father and His Word to the church. According to the measure of Faith given to them, if they themselves practiced it unto the LORD...then they obeyed the Holy Spirit's leading.

However, If they took the vision shared with them and abused the vision, well...that's between them and the LORD.

As for the church life......God certainly instructs us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together as is the manner of some. (Hebrews 10:25)

We ARE instructed to exhort one another, and so much the more AS we SEE the DAY approaching.

[Come QUICKLY LORD JESUS!! The Spirit and the BRIDE say "COME".]

So...if the saints in the LSM see and follow the instructions in accordance to the Word of God and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, they will be blessed.

But the blessings begin individually...not corporately for each of us as individuals will stand before the Son of Man at the Judgment seat of Christ. We will NOT stand corporately together!

So that lends to the question the importance of assembling together.

The answer to that is simple there is STRENGTH in Numbers. Where 2 or three are gathered, our LORD JESUS is in our midst! (Matthew 18:20)

We have a common enemy: Satan and his cronies.

Now, we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another...for the building up of the Body of Christ...

Together.....we overcome the enemy, the thief, whose goal is to steal, kill and destroy our love for the LORD, for the Brethren, our families, our relationships, our health, our Faith. Together by the BLOOD of the LAMB and by the Word of our Testimony, we overcome the enemy.

Don't forget:
Ecclesiastes 4:12
if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Nell · 10-30-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

and thank you for a chance to FINALLY use the "cool" smiley!

I hope you'll go ahead with your reply now and try to go easy on me.

YP-
I was so upset when I zapped your post that I lost my post.

I can give you a little hint, though.

You said: "...focusing on being scriptural isn't going to build anything but a denomination ..."

I said: "When I read this, all my teeth fell down..."

Work has been encroaching on my forum time lately, so I'll try to reconstruct this weekend.

Later--
Nell

10-28-2008, 08:44 AM	#1
Shawn Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 54	The question is: Can a group of believers practicing.... Brothers and Sisters, The question is: Can a group of believers practicing the church life as outlined in the ministries of Witness Lee and watchman Nee have a victorious Christian experience, individually as well as corporately, with the given that the abusive leadership issues that plauged certain localities, never materialized in this hypothetical church. Specifically, can the teaching of the ground of the church lead to a true oneness if practiced as it was written, or is it doomed to failure. The answer to this question is crucial to a post LSM church life in determining if the ministries of Nee and Lee can be re considered in the light of the whole Christian community and applied with positive results, or are there serious flaws that would lead to the eventual down fall of any attempt to practice what has been preached by thes two brothers? Thanks, Shawn

10-28-2008, 10:09 AM	#2
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,055	The question is: Can a group of believers practicing..... Shawn, I'm not sure our Christian lives or practices should be judged on "failure" or "success". If failure or success is the standard, it becomes subjective and depends on who is doing the judging. Some have determined that the life of Jesus Christ ended in failure when he was crucified on the cross with two criminals. Any teaching that depends on the proper execution thereof by man or a group of men, has already failed. Even the fact that these kind of questions are still being asked, indicates impending failure. Christ gave himself for the church, and He told us He would build it. Men have been getting in His way ever since. His job is to build the church. My job is to trust and obey. This removes "success" and "failure" from the picture. It also removes questionable teachings like "ground of the church" from the picture. Christ plus nothing. Even if you succeed at WL and WN teachings, what does it mean? Success at practicing Lee's teachings brings glory to Lee? Glory to Nee? In this case, we have succeeded to fail. Just another perspective ... Nell Last edited by Nell; 10-28-2008 at 10:18 AM.

10-29-2008, 06:08 AM	#6
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,055	BIG Mistake YP0534 and all-- I made a big mistake. I was replying to your post #5 and accidently ended up editing it instead. I'm the moderator on this board, so I have that ability. It wasn't my intention to edit your post at all and I apologize for my mistake. Please forgive me. I think I got your post back from the email I received when you posted. Please check to make sure this is correct. Do you have a copy? Please accept my apology. I'm so sorry. I'll pay more attention next time. Nell Last edited by Nell; 10-29-2008 at 06:13 AM.

10-29-2008, 07:23 AM	#8
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,055	Re: The question is: Can a group of believers practicing.... Thanks, YP--Nell