Brotherly Love the Source of Oneness?

[Prayerful]

There is an interesting article posted here: http://www.thechurchinakron.org/html..._love__1_.html

The writer says that the source of oneness is not the so-called "ground," but brotherly love. Here is an excerpt:

"The local churches of the Living Stream Ministry (LSM) looked to the New Testament to find how oneness was practiced in the first century. There they found the pattern of having only one church in every city. In fact, each church at that time was known by the name of its city, such as the church in Jerusalem, the church in Antioch, and the church in Rome. Although this pattern is biblical, LSM practiced this in such a way that brotherly love evaporated. They became narrow and exclusive in their attitude toward other Christians. They became proud in their doctrine, claiming that no one else had ever seen what they have seen. They set up a worldwide hierarchy that insisted on conformity in teaching and practice. Any who were suspected of “teaching differently” were ostracized. No one could publish anything that had not been approved by this leadership without fear of being excommunicated. Eventually they even began to sue those local churches that did not fall into line in order to punish them and to obtain their property. Outwardly they forced a kind of conforming oneness within their ranks, but the lack of brotherly love was obvious to any objective observer. The testimony of Christ they so longed for was nowhere to be found except in their own imagination."

The whole article, and others like it, is worth reading.

Any comments?

[OBW]

It is refreshing to see those who still hold to the basics of the LC realizing this and articulating it in such a manner. Some may feel that they have a long way to go, but this step is huge.

[djohnson]

Hopefully one day those groups that leave the LCS will not define and identify themselves in antithesis and thus we will not see the LSM mentioned in their local websites or better yet: not mentioned at all!

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hopefully one day those groups that leave the LCS will not define and identify themselves in antithesis and thus we will not see the LSM mentioned in their local websites or better yet: not mentioned at all!

To day "hopefully", I think, is too presumtuous. Being fairly removed from the "LC", its often been easy for me to look upon it like a sick child. And to look upon dialogue on these boards like a committe of wise parents - sometimes warring about alternatives, but united in assessment about the childishness.

That, I say to myself now, is unfair.

Reference to LSM in a thought-provoking publication is not an indication of still-yet-far-to-go. In ANY articulation of a point - especially in a realm that is so enmeshed in subjective assessments - there will always be a FOIL (even if the speaker does not acknowledge one).

While its important that the FOIL doesn't become a caricature, which shields all other manner of missteps, (e.g. you're all good - so long as you don't do what "those guys" did), I think the practice is valuable - and not just in an "emerging-state" way. Our relation to what we've been in, what we are in now and what we observe outside of our sphere will always be the basis of our opinions. What is important is whether we realize, in all that assessment, is whether we need a SAVIOR, rather than a medal, after our realizations. Not how far we are from some identifiable group.

There isn't a "hopefully" in terms of where LCers should end up, in my opinion. There is simply a, where are you Lord? That might mean assessing where we've come from. It might mean embracing the unknown.

His wisdom is multifarious and his grace is varied, given to each of us. How His gifts plays out and how His light shines as things move onward, is far beyond our categorizing minds.

So, I guess what I'm saying is: can we, even those skeptical or condemning of the LC and its forms, hear in our brothers' words a seeking, even if the result doesn't match our own present state? Can we love their interaction with the Lord in the place they are at...? And value that as much as a brother who might agree with our substantive opinions more, but is no more seeking?

Does that make sense?

Peter

[djohnson]

Yes it does make sense Peter. However if a church in Akron, etc can only define itself in antithesis to LSM I'm sure what they'll discover is their appeal and outreach will be limited because most Christians and non-believers in their city do not share their historical narrative i.e. their story. Their story is very parochial. If I read their website as a Christian in Akron thinking of visiting them I would ask: "What is LSM and what does it have to do with meeting and working together as Christians in Akron?" E.g. if ABC church in Akron has a bad experience with Zondervan publishers and they post it on their website I would find that peculiar. Instead of focusing on Christ and working together to build up the church I would be focused on: "What's this about Zondervan?" If it was a tiny relatively unknown publisher like LSM then I would really think it strange.

[Norm]

djohnson,

If you knew the history of those in Akron you would understand the relevance of these articles and the need to define itself in antithesis to LSM. After nearly forty years of being in the public eye they are not a little unknown group. WL used this city as an early base of operations. Many newspaper article were produced. The Christian community in that city would find it very educational as to the present stand of those meeting as the church in Akron.

As you have stated many times, you were never associated with the LC/LSM; therefore you have no way to comprehend the fight that these believers are passing through. Distant theoretical observations do little to address the actual situation. Your words of advice are like someone who has never been in a military battle advising a wounded soldier to just let it go and get on with life. Once wounded you live a different life than those around you.

Email Paul Kerr, he'll tell you.

[djohnson]

Norm I think you are missing my argument. The advantage I have is being an outsider.

I am merely using Akron as an example since it has been posted here. The experience of being wounded is a universal that most human beings can relate to at some level. The experience of being wounded by LSM is not a universal. So if a church on their website says: we are a place filled with the wounded, worn out, etc and Christ is the answer to our condition please come and join us. That is one thing. And most honest human beings will be able to relate to it. If however a church says we are a place filled with those wounded specifically by LSM please come and join us that is another appeal. E.g. if I have been wounded in WW2 and you have been wounded in Vietnam there is a difference between a group for wounded vets and wounded vets from Vietnam.

Suppose some people do come but they have been wounded by ABC ministry not LSM. Will their problem with ABC ministry be posted on the church website? And if so what is the church saying about themselves and if not why not?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Prayerful

The writer says that the source of oneness is not the so-called "ground," but brotherly love. Any comments?

Prayerful, I do feel many in the local churches do want the source of oneness we sung many times in Psalms 133. It was there at one time, but oneness through "brotherly love" was replaced by a oneness in "the ministry". There is still a type of oneness, but it's conditional. Only as we as brothers and sisters are in the same mind as the leading brothers at LSM is there an accepted oneness. Once our speaking, spiritual concepts is different than the speaking and spiritual concepts coming out of LSM, there is no oneness. Only when we have brotherly love for one another is there genuine oneness.

Terry

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

To day "hopefully", I think, is too presumtuous. Being fairly removed from the "LC", its often been easy for me to look upon it like a sick child. And to look upon dialogue on these boards like a committee of wise parents - sometimes warring about alternatives, but united in assessment about the childishness.
That, I say to myself now, is unfair.

Thanks Peter for you input. Good to hear from you.
Of course "assessment" is a rather neutral thing - in and of itself, it is nether good nor bad, neither fair nor unfair. It's what we do with the assessment that can be good or bad, fair or unfair. As ex members, who have had substantial experience with the Local Church, and who may have loved ones still in the movement, it is altogether natural that we make assessments regarding the history and current state of affairs in the LC movement.

Now, to the extent that a person, or even whole church, remains within a certain "system" (albeit disassociated with headquarters) or remains faithful to certain set of beliefs and teachings (in this case of Nee & Lee) this will be extent to which they may fall under the "assessments" of others.

This being said I have never heard anyone on this forum claim (or even imply) that they are part of "a committee of wise parents". Most of us probably have a hard enough time convincing our own children that we are wise parents, much less convincing a whole group of people. Nevertheless, many of us have made some assessments of what we experienced and learned from our time in the LC, and we have also made some assessments regarding some of the things that went on behind the scenes unbeknown to us. For better or for worse, the Internet has afforded some of us the chance to make the results of our "assessments" known to world.

...What is important is whether we realize, in all that assessment, is whether we need a SAVIOR,

Amen to this!

There isn't a "hopefully" in terms of where LCers should end up, in my opinion. There is simply a, where are you Lord? That might mean assessing where we've come from. It might mean embracing the unknown.

Ah, but this is where all of us bitter ex members come in! We walked into the unknown because we had no other choice. We ran into a lot walls, knocked our heads against a lot of low branches, fell into a lot pits, sunk neck-deep into the quicksand, you name it... we ran into it or fell into it. (reminds me of that saying..."we found the enemy..and it's us!") So my advise is (just as a brother, not a wise parent) to the brothers and sisters in the church in Akron, or others so situated, take advantage of us...ask us how we got that big lump on our head, or that bit gash on our face, or even how we lost that limb! Most of us will be happy to tell you. Nobody has to "embrace the unknown" anymore. Praise God for this. And this is one of the biggest reasons that this forum exists.

So, I guess what I'm saying is: can we, even those skeptical or condemning of the LC and its forms, hear in our brothers' words a seeking, even if the result doesn't match our own present state?

We hear! We Hear! And that's why we're here!

[Prayerful]

I feel I have done a disservice to everyone by selecting the excerpt I did in my original post. The article has a lot to say, and the excerpt I chose was the only mention of LSM. The Plymouth Brethren and the RC Church are also used as examples. The point of the article is not to rail against LSM, and I for one get no feeling that this was the intent.

There are 3 articles in all, and I would encourage everyone to read all three to get the full impact.

http://www.thechurchinakron.org/html..._love__1_.html
http://www.thechurchinakron.org/html..._love__2_.html
http://www.thechurchinakron.org/html..._love__3_.html

Please read these and then make more comments.

[TLFisher]

This came from the second of three articles:

"Of course lack of brotherly love is not always so extreme. More often it is displayed through simple neglect. Do we know when our brother or sister is in need of a cup of water? Do we ever visit to find out? If we know, do we do anything about it? Too often the Lord is stopped from answering our prayers for others because He is unable to send us to do the work. Our coldness to one another blinds us from seeing the need or heeding the Lord’s call."

It's far more easier to love those who share our concepts than to love those who are contrary to our concepts.
I've expereinced the best way to show love is to appear at a doorstep. That has more effect on a person than what an email or phone call will do. My experience was a group (one brother and two sisters with whom my family now meets with) knocked at my door. Having them thinking of my family enough to show at my home translates into care and brotherly love.

Terry

[Felix]

When one believes in the Lord, he does not become an only begotten son; he is rather one son among tens of thousands. This very fact eliminates the possibility of shutting oneself up solely to the Father. Though you may be born as an only child in an earthly family, yet when you believe in the Lord, you are born again into the biggest family in the world. No family can be bigger than this family of God, for it includes countless numbers of brothers and sisters. Do not despise them because there is such a great multitude of them; seek rather to know them and to communicate with them since you yourself are one of them. If you have no desire at all to see your brothers and sisters, I wonder if you are really a brother or sister in the Lord. How can one who is born of God not be moved in his heart by those who are also born of God? Can he refuse to give them the right hand of fellowship?

This is from the book of Assembling Together by Watchman Nee , are this practice real in the Lord's Recovery, as well know, LSM?, let me know dear saints, amen...this is my first time writting, excuse me any errors...

Amen God Bless you

[aron]

Originally Posted by Felix

Do not despise [other christians] because there is such a great multitude of them; seek rather to know them and to communicate with them since you yourself are one of them. If you have no desire at all to see your brothers and sisters...

This is from the book of Assembling Together by Watchman Nee , are this practice real in the Lord's Recovery, as well as LSM?

Felix,
To a certain extent, I would say yes, this is practiced. However, if you get on the "bad side" of these christians they will cut you off, excommunicate, quarantine, disfellowship, or whatever the current terminology is.

The way you get on the bad side is if you are labeled "factious" or "divisive". The apostle Paul said that we should cut off the factious man after a first and second admonition. (Titus 3:10)

So yes, these brethren do practice Nee's teaching. But they seem to have a very subjective assessment of what it means to be divisive. Basically, from what I can see, if you don't do everything they say you are being "divisive". So only "yes-men" are allowed to abide there. The rest eventually become troubled and speak up, then they are banished. Or else they simply leave.

To abide there you must sit quietly, and only say "amen" when spoken to. Anything else, and you risk being marked and separated. I have seen this happen several times.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

So yes, these brethren do practice Nee's teaching. But they seem to have a very subjective assessment of what it means to be divisive. Basically, from what I can see, if you don't do everything they say you are being "divisive". So only "yes-men" are allowed to abide there. The rest eventually become troubled and speak up, then they are banished. Or else they simply leave.

To abide there you must sit quietly, and only say "amen" when spoken to. Anything else, and you risk being marked and separated. I have seen this happen several times.

I want to give an example of how 'oneness' is working for me...somewhat at least.
I assemble with Christians who love the Pastor almost to a fault. I hear many people say, they've gone to many, many churches and no one teaches the Word like this pastor does.
(I disagree..but this is where God has me and I have the peace of God to assemble there.)

However, in our home gatherings we fellowship and share what we have learned from other ministries not having anything to do with the Pastor's teaching. We pass around other ministries teachings... If the pastor of our congregation shares something I don't agree with, I can freely explain why I disagree without being afraid.. (Grant it, I do it with respect. We ALL should respect our spiritual leaders.)
Sometimes I might find, I was wrong on my perspective & I have received correction with an EXPLANATION from the bible. Other times, God has used me to shed light and it is well received. Sometimes I keep my thoughts to myself as I listen to the Holy Spirit's leading and Guidance.

Now in the LSM/LC...Brother, (notice how he was never addressed as PASTOR or Apostle )Witness Lee was highly revered and that's probably an understatement. Can you imagine bringing 'something' from 'the outside' into an LSM/LC home meeting? Can you imagine fellowshipping about a book written by someone other than Nee/Lee, or the Revered saints from the past...Andrew Murray, and others...someone contemporary?

There might be a few who can but you know darn well they are being selective.

You know saints, I was contemplating a few days ago my spiritual journey and what I've learned along the way.

I was saved 'in the church'.
I learned to call on the Name of the Lord.
I learned to pray read.
I learned...really learned about the Power of the Blood of Jesus.
I learned to 'testify' and support the message being given. (In the 70s, we testified after a message if we wanted to. I don't know what it's called now.

I learned about my human spirit.
I learned to fellowship.
I learned to preach the gospel.

I learned about 'oneness'.
I saw the 'vision of the church'.
I experienced the church life.

This is a list of good things I experienced. And I'm thankful for this. I'm not going to list the 'bad things'. We've all been there-done that.

Fast forward to where I am...where former LCrs are.

I have made it a 'mission' to use what I learned as a foundation to build on what I'm learning now. Without imposing what I learned on anyone, I bring my positive experiences to build and encourage the body of Christ. BUT, I also take what I'm learning & receiving from my brothers & sisters in Christ who have never heard of the LSM/LC..who don't pray like I was raised to pray yet have a solid relationship with the Lord...who know the Word of God and know how to touch the Throne with their prayers...and without 'knowing' they are building up the body of Christ, are doing just that.

I can see why the Lord brought me to the LC/LSM for a time and for a season. Unfortunately, the experience and deception that there was 'nothing better out there' left me in a quandry for a long time. 25 plus years it was before I began to meet with a congregation of saints under a Pastor.

I needed this to shed the old wineskin and to put on the NEW Wineskin..but it was HARD at first!! Good heavens did I have a critical spirit!!! (I didn't tell anyone what I thought but I sure was judgmental privately!!!)

I'm so glad I've learned...still learning to OBEY the Voice of God by tuning into my spirit.

No one with whom I meet is promoting 'oneness'...it's just coming together 'naturally' and we talk about how the oneness is coming together.

To God be all Praise, Honor, Glory with Thanksgiving. Thank You Lord Jesus..for what you're showing us..how You're working in us through Your Precious Holy Spirit...whom I love as much as the Lord Jesus and God the Father...my Heavenly Father.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

No one with whom I meet is promoting 'oneness'...it's just coming together 'naturally' and we talk about how the oneness is coming together.

Good point CMW. At some point the oneness in the LCs went from celebrating what God had done in Christ Jesus to a kind of "enforced oneness" where you have to be "one" with the latest move/speaking out of HQ in Anaheim.

It is, still, nominally, "oneness" but in reality it is a whole 'nuther animal. "...and no one was able to buy or sell documents or parchments or CDs or DVDs unless they had the mark of HQ, that is, the LIVING STREAM MINISTRy" (cf Revelation 13:17).

This enforced oneness is not what we envisioned when we first signed up for "the local church". But evidently it comes with the territory.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Prayerful

There is an interesting article posted here: http://www.thechurchinakron.org/html..._love__1_.html

The writer says that the source of oneness is not the so-called "ground," but brotherly love. Here is an excerpt:

"The local churches of the Living Stream Ministry (LSM) looked to the New Testament to find how oneness was practiced in the first century. There they found the pattern of having only one church in every city. In fact, each church at that time was known by the name of its city, such as the church in Jerusalem, the church in Antioch, and the church in Rome. Although this pattern is biblical, LSM practiced this in such a way that brotherly love evaporated. They became narrow and exclusive in their attitude toward other Christians. They became proud in their doctrine, claiming that no one else had ever seen what they have seen. They set up a worldwide hierarchy that insisted on conformity in teaching and practice. Any who were suspected of “teaching differently” were ostracized. No one could publish anything that had not been approved by this leadership without fear of being excommunicated. Eventually they even began to sue those local churches that did not fall into line in order to punish them and to obtain their property. Outwardly they forced a kind of conforming oneness within their ranks, but the lack of brotherly love was obvious to any objective observer. The testimony of Christ they so longed for was nowhere to be found except in their own imagination."

The whole article, and others like it, is worth reading.

Any comments?

In response, brotherly love by itself is insufficient.

If you receive what Watchman Nee has to say, measure it according to the Word. Following are Watchman Nee's words as published by Living Stream Ministry:

"I would like to draw your attention to the basis of our oneness. This is fundamental. The basis of our oneness is the forsaking of sins. Please bear in mind that God's children are divided today because of the problem of sins. The matter of sins is always implicated. Because of many sins, there are many divisions. Many of God's children have a basic misunderstanding; they think that patience and forbearance are the basis of oneness. There is no such thing as this. The Bible never takes patience or forbearance as the basis of our oneness. The Bible always takes the forsaking of sins as the basis of our oneness.
If anyone wants to have fellowship with God today, he must walk in the light. We will have fellowship with one another when we are in the light. We may say that fellowship is the basis of our oneness, but the basis of fellowship is our dealing with sin and our removal of sin. When all of us are in God's light, we have fellowship one with another. Other than this, there is no fellowship."

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...3%231%2F%28%0A



Terry

[manna-man]

Brotherly love is evidence of our Oneness in Christ.

It is something that can be faked in the short term. But in the long term it is evidence of Christs love flowing through the saints. Before Christ we cared for nobody but ourselves. But in Christ we find purpose, encouragment and love. And an eagerness to express it to the world and the saints. We are gifts to one another from Him.
So go ahead encourage and love one.

Love,

Jr.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Terry

"If anyone wants to have fellowship with God today, he must walk in the light. We will have fellowship with one another when we are in the light. We may say that fellowship is the basis of our oneness, but the basis of fellowship is our dealing with sin and our removal of sin. When all of us are in God's light, we have fellowship one with another. Other than this, there is no fellowship."

That matches my experience 100%.

And, praise the Lord that He is faithful even when we are not!

[manna-man]

Quote from Terry:"When all of us are in God's light, we have fellowship one with another. Other than this, there is no fellowship."


I would agree we all need to abide in Gods light/Truth.

If that quote above is correct then, the world has no need for us. And that is contrary to Gods plan for the world. We need to communicate/fellowship Christ Crucified to the world! Scripture does not proclaim that the world needs to get Light with the Lord in order for His saints to fellowship/communicate with them.

If I'm reading you right,

JR.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

If you receive what Watchman Nee has to say, measure it according to the Word. Following are Watchman Nee's words as published by Living Stream Ministry:

"I would like to draw your attention to the basis of our oneness. This is fundamental. The basis of our oneness is the forsaking of sins. Please bear in mind that God's children are divided today because of the problem of sins.

While I appreciate much of WN, I have to protest this statement. This is straight from J.N. Darby (and Rome before him.) Darby made the "unity of judgment" as the basis for our oneness. It was perhaps the first tract he wrote for the Brethren. And, of course, it was he, and he alone, who defined what was the "sin" that the congregation must judge ... or else. When this gets translated into action on a personal basis, it really means this: "we can only be one as long as we all hate the same thing." And the necessary corollary to this "oneness" is simple: "headquarters (initially JND) will tell us all who and what we are all to hate."

I know this word "hate" sounds harsh, but I view it as a synonym to much of bigoted religious judgment. If you won't talk to someone, if you have nothing good to say about someone, if you refuse to even acknowledge the person, if you smear their reputation abroad with lying rumors, etc. etc. how can this be any different from "hate?" You tell me the difference.

WN's (and Darby's before him) statement above is the basis for exclusivism. When one first hears this, the normal thought is the rejection of gross sins, as enumerated in scripture e.g. I Cor chapter 5. But ... who is without sin? And who makes up the list of sins? And who sets the limits to those sins? The exclusives were famous for using this "teaching gone wild" to lynch their rivals. There is just about no limit to what can be considered "sin," especially when the matter of "oneness of the body" is elevated way beyond the Spirit of God. Just expressing an opinion can qualify as a "divisive activity," thus worthy of censure.

Here is an example of the "forsaking of sins," also known as the "unity of judgment," run amok in exclusive circles. Mt 18.18-19 says "whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven ... if two or three shall agree on earth concerning anything they ask, it shall be done by My Father in heaven." These scriptures got all distorted by the exclusives, and eventually they came to mean this -- If I don't like you, and I can "pray" with one more saint and get them to agree with me, then your "sin" must be judged, and heaven is bound to enforce it ... along with all the Brethren assemblies. Two brothers in some obscure town can enact binding judgments for all assemblies around the globe! Unbelievable ... but true!

I have not made up any of this folks. This is history. The history of the Brethren and now what is becoming the history of the LC's. The Brethren had a 100 year "head start," that's all. The Apostle Paul, however, never speaks of the "oneness of the body," or something called the "unity of judgment." He speaks of something wonderful called the "oneness of the Spirit." This is so positive! The church should never become a "cesspool of judgments," based on mere human manipulations.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Apostle Paul, however, never speaks of the "oneness of the body," or something called the "unity of judgment." He speaks of something wonderful called the "oneness of the Spirit." This is so positive! The church should never become a "cesspool of judgments," based on mere human manipulations.

Ohio - my appreciation of this comment from Nee was that it was an internal discerning according to our worthiness to participate in the the fellowship of the bread-breaking meeting. I consistently get convicted to confess whenever I move to fellowship with the saints in a meeting of any kind. I immediately plead the blood and move on in the oneness of the Spirit from that point forward.

The interpretation you're speaking about from history sounds horrible and has nothing to do with my experience at all!

Just to make that clear!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Ohio - my appreciation of this comment from Nee was that it was an internal discerning according to our worthiness to participate in the the fellowship of the bread-breaking meeting. I consistently get convicted to confess whenever I move to fellowship with the saints in a meeting of any kind. I immediately plead the blood and move on in the oneness of the Spirit from that point forward.

The interpretation you're speaking about from history sounds horrible and has nothing to do with my experience at all!

Just to make that clear!

Good point, YP.

For clarity's sake, let's call your testimony the "conviction of sins" and the historical record in my post the "judgment of sins." Possibly the "forsaking of sins" can be considered a third item.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Quote from Terry:"When all of us are in God's light, we have fellowship one with another. Other than this, there is no fellowship."


I would agree we all need to abide in Gods light/Truth.

If that quote above is correct then, the world has no need for us. And that is contrary to Gods plan for the world. We need to communicate/fellowship Christ Crucified to the world! Scripture does not proclaim that the world needs to get Light with the Lord in order for His saints to fellowship/communicate with them.

If I'm reading you right,

As I understand it, you do not need others to be in the light to communicate, but you DO need to be in the light to fellowship. BTW, fellowship is a word that must not be taken lightly. More on that later.....

Terry

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[/I]WN's (and Darby's before him) statement above is the basis for exclusivism. When one first hears this, the normal thought is the rejection of gross sins, as enumerated in scripture e.g. I Cor chapter 5. But ... who is without sin? And who makes up the list of sins? And who sets the limits to those sins? The exclusives were famous for using this "teaching gone wild" to lynch their rivals. There is just about no limit to what can be considered "sin," especially when the matter of "oneness of the body" is elevated way beyond the Spirit of God. Just expressing an opinion can qualify as a "divisive activity," thus worthy of censure.

Ohio, as I understand the reference is to gross sin which will affect members of the Body. If that sin isn't judged, division will arise. Thus affecting oneness in the Spirit.
Case and point, bearing false witness.

Terry

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Good point, YP.

For clarity's sake, let's call your testimony the "conviction of sins" and the historical record in my post the "judgment of sins." Possibly the "forsaking of sins" can be considered a third item.

I would say that forsaking of sins is the consequence of conviciton of sins.

Identification.
Repentence.
Fellowship.

That's my experience and it is my joy to say I am saved in it.

This "judgment of sins" malarkey sounds perfectly awful.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Terry

As I understand it, you do not need to be in the light to communicate, but you DO need to be in the light to fellowship. BTW, fellowship is a word that must not be taken lightly. More on that later.....

Terry

Terry,

Are you implying that you could be in darkness to communicate the Gospel? This can not be right. Anything we do we must be lead by the Shepherd otherwise we are doing it in the flesh wouldn't you agree? Fellowship comes from abiding with the Shepherd. He lights our paths with truth. Sharing the Gospel must be done with the Shepherd. Because apart from Him we can do nothing.

JR.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Terry,

Are you implying that you could be in darkness to communicate the Gospel? This can not be right. Anything we do we must be lead by the Shepherd otherwise we are doing it in the flesh wouldn't you agree? Fellowship comes from abiding with the Shepherd. He lights our paths with truth. Sharing the Gospel must be done with the Shepherd. Because apart from Him we can do nothing.

JR.

Not at all. Meaning you can be in the light, but the one you're speaking with is in the dark.

Terry

[TLFisher]

Fellowship today sort of has the ring of popcorn. “Fellowship. Well, we’ll have fellowship.” That means a little back slap. Here’s what it means, “that they may all be one.” Its not sublimating your differences and swallowing them down, or by concealing issues or turning your back on them. It means by totally giving oneself over to the issues of truth. It means expressing what’s in your heart, speaking the truth in love and exhorting one another daily while it is yet today. It means confrontation. It means bringing to the surface and to the light the things that are concealed in the dark rather than swallowing them down and looking the wrong way and hoping by a little glib smile and a slap on the back to pass them over!
(p 7 True Fellowship by Art Katz)

Terry

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Terry

Fellowship today sort of has the ring of popcorn. “Fellowship. Well, we’ll have fellowship.” That means a little back slap. Here’s what it means, “that they may all be one.” Its not sublimating your differences and swallowing them down, or by concealing issues or turning your back on them. It means by totally giving oneself over to the issues of truth. It means expressing what’s in your heart, speaking the truth in love and exhorting one another daily while it is yet today. It means confrontation. It means bringing to the surface and to the light the things that are concealed in the dark rather than swallowing them down and looking the wrong way and hoping by a little glib smile and a slap on the back to pass them over!
(p 7 True Fellowship by Art Katz)

Terry

Amen Terry!
Popcorn styled fellowship can only satisfy so much.(Superficial) Diet food. No real growth can be expected from it.

But Real, deep, open/honest fellowship is healthy grub for spiritual growth in our church life. (Unrestrictive) And it also helps wash down those popcorn kernels which stick to the back of our spiritual throats which could lead eventually to choking.