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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 05-13-2014, 08:05 PM   #1
Chris Fleming
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Default A Public Service Announcement

Just some thoughts for those here and for those who may be still in the LSM churches.

--I do not read, "the recovery version", I read the BIBLE. If that happens to be a Bible from LSM, it doesn't magically become a special Bible over all others.

--"The Saints" are ALL believers, ALL real Christians, not just the select few who meet with LSM groups.

--The "ministry of the age" is THE BIBLE, and the "minister of the age" is Christ Jesus. No one else.

--Jesus Christ is "the acting God". Not Witness Lee, not "the blended brothers". No. One. Else.

--Reading someone's ministry books, even if they happen to have Bible verses in them is NOT the same as reading the Bible.

--You are more than capable to have the Bible through the Spirit teach you what it says without relying on "footnotes" to tell you what it says.

--Christians throughout the centuries have been able to love and serve the Lord just fine without LSM. In fact, God is doing mighty works of gospel preaching, healing and deliverance right now through people who have never even heard of WL. (shock of shocks! How can that be possible?!?!)

--Believe it or not, there are more people out there who need to hear the gospel, not just college freshmen.

--How should I put this....if you think a part of the Bible is actually referring to your ministry, you probably need a head check.

--How should I put this...nobody really cares about what LSM thinks. The churches I've seen are waaaaaaay too busy loving and serving the Lord to worry about them not "being in oneness" with your group.

--If groups of Christians were to organize a city-wide prayer meeting and you are not willing to go because you think only you are "the church"....guess what? That makes YOU the divisive ones.

--If your Christianity consists of reading books, talking about those books, watching messages, talking about those messages, going to meetings, talking about those meetings and not actually doing what Jesus said to do (preach the gospel to ALL, heal the sick, do deliverance, help the poor), you have a serious problem. Dead faith.

That is all. Carry on.

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Old 05-14-2014, 09:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: A Public Service Announcement

I couldn't have said it but I totally agree with it.

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Old 05-14-2014, 12:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: A Public Service Announcement

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Originally Posted by Chris Fleming View Post

--If groups of Christians were to organize a city-wide prayer meeting and you are not willing to go because you think only you are "the church"....guess what? That makes YOU the divisive ones.
Relating to this I believe it was Igzy who had posted relating to this topic in Austin, TX. A City wide prayer among saints meeting in Austin churches. As I recall the LSM/LC church in Austin declined to participate.
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3302
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: A Public Service Announcement

Hi, I am new here. Still somehow kind of on the observing side with the LC. This is a very insightful post!
I don't go to their Lord's day meeting but I do sometimes fellowship with them.
I think they don't really trust me because every time I mention anything that is not what they read in their special recovery bible or ask a question, all I hear is no, no, no, no....
They love to point out how other Christians are wrong and refer back to the footnote to their Bible.....
I wonder why I still go to their fellowship....
That's why I am here for support I guess so I can leave...
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: A Public Service Announcement

Hi Sarah!

Thanks for having the courage to register and post. You are one of the main reasons that this forum exists... or I should say that one of the main functions of this forum is for people like you to reach out for fellowship and advise.

You will find support here.

Now it seems to me that it would not be too difficult of a task to leave the Local Church if you are not attending regularly on Lord's Day morning. What I am assuming is that you have made some acquaintances and maybe friendships with a number of Local Church members, correct? If this is the case then it will still be somewhat of a difficult situation. The good news is that you have the Holy Spirit who is also known as the Spirit of Truth. Ultimately, He is the One who will guide you into all truth. But in the meantime you will need some practical fellowship, and I really think it is of the Lord that you have reached out here first.

If you are in a city/metro area of any size then I think you will find that the Lord has reserved a place for you to seek Him and have fellowship with some who would have your best interest at heart. If you would like to Private Message me and let me know which metro area you are in I would be more than happy to point out some good places for you to have fellowship.

Thanks again for registering.

Your brother who is unto Him.
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Relating to this I believe it was Igzy who had posted relating to this topic in Austin, TX. A City wide prayer among saints meeting in Austin churches. As I recall the LSM/LC church in Austin declined to participate.
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3302
I had a similar experience, where I invited all the "saints" in my group to come to an annual all-city prayer meeting held at a local Catholic church. Exactly as Chris said, I was told it was not a genuine prayer meeting and people muttered excuses, I was the only one from the group who went. Oh, actually one young guy (who had never been to another church outside LC) said, "you should be careful in that church, they are not Christian, they worship the Virgin Mary".

It was their loss… there were Christians present from all over the city, Catholic, Anglican, Evangelical, Baptists, Methodists, a bunch from the seminary, and the message was of unity and reconciliation, cross-denominational exchange and cross-cultural exchange. Beautiful really, but of course the anti-thesis of the Witness Lee church.

Good announcement Chris! Hope more trapped LC folk will read it.
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:38 AM   #7
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Default Re: A Public Service Announcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah View Post
Hi, I am new here. Still somehow kind of on the observing side with the LC. This is a very insightful post!
I don't go to their Lord's day meeting but I do sometimes fellowship with them.
I think they don't really trust me because every time I mention anything that is not what they read in their special recovery bible or ask a question, all I hear is no, no, no, no....
They love to point out how other Christians are wrong and refer back to the footnote to their Bible.....
I wonder why I still go to their fellowship....
That's why I am here for support I guess so I can leave...
Welcome Sarah!

I was with the LC's a long time, and sadly watched things deteriorate. I have found many of the Christians there to be kind, loving, and giving, but most of the leaders are an intolerant bunch. Unfortunately, it is these intolerant zealots who advance among their ranks.

They have long been taught that members (especially sisters!) should not have any opinions, and that the teachings of W. Lee decide every discussion, trumping even the Bible. If you have friendships with members in the LC, you really should ask the Lord before dropping them, but go prayerfully slowly before jumping head first into their "pool" of fellowship.
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Old 05-15-2014, 12:59 PM   #8
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It was their loss… there were Christians present from all over the city, Catholic, Anglican, Evangelical, Baptists, Methodists, a bunch from the seminary, and the message was of unity and reconciliation, cross-denominational exchange and cross-cultural exchange. Beautiful really, but of course the anti-thesis of the Witness Lee church.
It's really wonderful seeing something that overcomes the walls of the congregations we meet in, but unfortunately in the local churches such a coming together of Christians within a city is termed as "shaking hands over the fence."
I recall back in the mid to late 90's there was something similar that ocurred in many US cities that brought Christian men together regardless of where they broke bread Sunday mornings. I'm sure many on this forum heard of Promise Keepers. In Seattle the event filled up the Kingdome (50,000+/-). However in the local church the Promise Keepers event was minimized if mentioned at all.
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:23 PM   #9
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Thank you for your kind words. I will come and fellowship here more and more often I think. :-)
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:38 PM   #10
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Thank you for your kind words. I will come and fellowship here more and more often I think. :-)
You've piqued my interest.

And by the way :

!!! WELCOME !!!
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Old 05-16-2014, 06:12 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Chris Fleming View Post
--Christians throughout the centuries have been able to love and serve the Lord just fine without LSM. In fact, God is doing mighty works of gospel preaching, healing and deliverance right now through people who have never even heard of WL. (shock of shocks! How can that be possible?!?!)
This one has always been a burr under my saddle. There was a time when I was convinced (brainwashed?) that our great God actually limited His work among mankind to the sphere of the Recovery. Imagine that! The God of the universe confined to the work of a little Chinaman in Anaheim (his words, not mine.)

Common sense and the facts of life eventually got the best of me as I emerged from that little cocoon believing that surely God was with the greater body of Christ outside of the Recovery. I think what really got me going was how few actually got saved among us as compared with those outside, coupled with the constant drain of our children to the world.

After I left the Recovery, facts surrounding the ministries of both Nee and Lee began to emerge from beneath the rocks. Why is it that both of these "MOTA's" used the "burden" to evangelize the whole inhabited earth as a pretext for power and wealth? Nee in his "resumption" and Lee in his "new way" both spoke of the saints "handing over" all they were and all they had, not to the Lord, but to the ministry, that is to "the work" which they ruled with an iron fist.

The Bible calls that filthy lucre, using the gospel as a pretense for wealth, power, and personal gains. Nee and Lee are neither the first nor the last to use the gospel for filthy lucrative means, but they promised us something better, and never delivered.
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Old 05-16-2014, 02:50 PM   #12
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This one has always been a burr under my saddle. There was a time when I was convinced (brainwashed?) that our great God actually limited His work among mankind to the sphere of the Recovery. Imagine that! The God of the universe confined to the work of a little Chinaman in Anaheim (his words, not mine.)
I fell for this too. But I saw it as the spearhead of God's present movement on the earth. Something all other believers should join up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
I think what really got me going was how few actually got saved among us as compared with those outside, . . .
Bringing outsiders in was made much harder because we looked so wierd and frantic in our meetings. Like a pair of new ones behind me at a Friday night gospel meeting remarked, "These people are a half-bubble off level."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
coupled with the constant drain of our children to the world.
My heart is really burdened for those growing up in the local church. I grew up indoctrinated in the Southern Baptist Church. I know how it can be. And the SBC isn't even close to the cult that the local church is. From what I've seen growing up in the LC really screws up kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Why is it that both of these "MOTA's" used the "burden" to evangelize the whole inhabited earth as a pretext for power and wealth?
They really really blew up a big bubble in the air, made up of puzzle-pieces-pictures from Bible verses, intended to mesmerize, while setting themselves up as the head honcho of God. I was there. It was really bewitching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Nee in his "resumption" and Lee in his "new way" both spoke of the saints "handing over" all they were and all they had, not to the Lord, but to the ministry, that is to "the work" which they ruled with an iron fist.
A whole heart for the ministry didn't leave much heart left for the saints. So if a brother or sister had a problem, as we all do from time to time, they became fodder, or worse, considered to be a drag on the ministry, and in need of purging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
they promised us something better, and never delivered.
They delivered, perchance, in the abstract. But their practice exposed their hypocrisy.
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:48 PM   #13
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I apologize if this has been said a lot. Collecting over one million dollars from the saints to receive the two trainings is bad bad bad. I'm sure not on the insiide but it doesn't take a math major to know that 4000 plus in Anaheim twice a year at $100 per plus all the videos throughout the US add up to well over one million. Even the dishonesty of calling it a donation... Maybe they don't call it that now but they did for years.

It's inconceivable that Paul or Peter would have put a price tag on their letters. It's just plane crazy and we were so drugged, drugged, drugged. It was surely us who were drinking the kool aid.

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Old 05-16-2014, 08:13 PM   #14
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My heart is really burdened for those growing up in the local church. I grew up indoctrinated in the Southern Baptist Church. I know how it can be. And the SBC isn't even close to the cult that the local church is. From what I've seen growing up in the LC really screws up kids.
Having grown up in the LC, I can attest to this. I know a few who I grew up with who aren't doing so well as adults. In my own experience, the paradigm of the LC did nothing to prepare me for the real world. That is part of what caused me to start questioning the LC and brought me to this point.

There is a lot more that can be said about growing up in the LC, but I don't want to get too far off topic. The problem with growing up in the LC is that everything related to the LC seems "normal" and everything on the outside seems "abnormal".

I have found that it really take a lot to move on past the effects of the LC. Even though I am still associated with the LC, I have taken steps in certain areas of my life to try and undue some of the damage. For example, since about 5 years ago, I have not attended a since semi-annual training. I have chosen instead to spend that time with family and go to events like Christmas gatherings (gasp).

I agree with all the points brought up in the thread 100%. I still feel sad that others in the LC don't see the hypocrisy of it all. At times it makes me angry when I think about the damage inflicted upon me and others. I have personal issues that I will have to deal with for many years to come. I know there are many here who are the same way. What helps me is I realize what is being done in the LC is being done with good intentions, just severely misguided intentions. I am just thankful to the Lord that I have seen past so much of the nonsense.
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Old 05-17-2014, 05:55 AM   #15
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My heart is really burdened for those growing up in the local church.
I grew up in the local church, and as I think I've said here before, of those with whom I grew up there are very few left. Maybe around 10%. A few left as a result of the storms, while others just drifted and drifted until they were gone.

I've noticed now that unless you're involved in lc activities on a regular basis you're pretty much forgotten by most, especially the younger crowd. But, it's true too of the late 20s/30s married crowd.

I used to help out with the high schoolers on Saturday nights, but I stopped because I just couldn't watch what was happening. I tried to speak up, tried to get things back to the Bible, but was just...heard and then nothing. Saturdays consisted of playing some kind of game. Sitting in in 2 semi circles facing each other, boys on one side, girls on the other. Sing the same songs for about 15 minutes while repeating some of the lines. Move on to a long portion of the ministry. Kids slump in their chairs. Read around the semi circles. There was always one or two who had learned to pray-read the lc way. The serving ones focused on them.
Meeting over. I've never felt lack of life so strongly.

Never a bible answer night, never talk about what's happening in their lives, never talk about boys and girls and love and responsibility...nothing relevant. Read the ministry. I couldn't take it.

My generation is gone (high school in the early 90s). This generation has one leg out the door already.
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:01 AM   #16
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Never a bible answer night, never talk about what's happening in their lives, never talk about boys and girls and love and responsibility...nothing relevant. Read the ministry. I couldn't take it.
And another example of The Ministry trumping even care for the young ones growing up in the LC. In the end The Ministry is eating its own tail, and is bringing its own destruction. In fact it's already dead as a door nail. No wonder the young are walking away. Most to psychological troubles ... from LC damage.
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:27 AM   #17
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There is a lot more that can be said about growing up in the LC, but I don't want to get too far off topic. The problem with growing up in the LC is that everything related to the LC seems "normal" and everything on the outside seems "abnormal".
Wow, what a very insightful observation! I never really thought about putting it that way, but now that you mention it really makes sense. Of course The Local Church is not the only insular, self-absorbed group where we see this dynamic play out so strong, but it's the one we are most familiar with, so I would love to see this theme develop here on this thread (or elsewhere if appropriate)

I came in contact with the LC when I was a 17 yr old Junior in High School, and before I knew it, I was attended 3 or 4 meetings a week and of course every holiday was consumed with special conferences and bi-annual trainings. All of the sudden family events and birthdays were considered "worldly" and to be avoided. This hurt my mother deeply...especially when I wouldn't bother to take a Saturday or Sunday afternoon for a special family event or especially her birthday. This was way back in the day, mid 1970s, and I understand things have loosened up a bit. (you younger guys can chime in on this notion much better than me)

For example I got a text from a current member who was staying at a long-time LC couple's home - the sister (wife) had received a Mother's Day flower bouquet from her son who is LSM full-timer. I thought to myself, man, this would have never happened 30 or maybe even 20 years ago. Mother's Day?...who cares about Mother's Day when you have 2 or 3 meetings to enjoy the Ministry! And that $20 bucks for the flowers could be better spent on the "Up-To-Date, High Peak, Ministry of the Age, Current Speaking".
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Old 05-17-2014, 10:06 AM   #18
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Of course The Local Church is not the only insular, self-absorbed group where we see this dynamic play out so strong, but it's the one we are most familiar with, so I would love to see this theme develop here on this thread (or elsewhere if appropriate)
This is a topic that I would like to start a thread on when I have more time. I think that those who grew up in the LC really saw a different dynamic to it and the effects of it.

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This was way back in the day, mid 1970s, and I understand things have loosened up a bit. (you younger guys can chime in on this notion much better than me)
From what I've seen, things have loosened up slightly. There aren't as many "lectures" about holidays as I used to see.

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I thought to myself, man, this would have never happened 30 or maybe even 20 years ago. Mother's Day?...who cares about Mother's Day when you have 2 or 3 meetings to enjoy the Ministry! And that $20 bucks for the flowers could be better spent on the "Up-To-Date, High Peak, Ministry of the Age, Current Speaking".
While the stance on holidays may have loosened up a bit, I don't think the "official" stance will ever change. WL made a number of statements about holidays, especially Christmas. What he says goes in the LC, there's no arguing, questioning or debating anything he says.
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Old 05-17-2014, 12:44 PM   #19
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Having grown up in the LC, I can attest to this. I know a few who I grew up with who aren't doing so well as adults. In my own experience, the paradigm of the LC did nothing to prepare me for the real world. That is part of what caused me to start questioning the LC and brought me to this point.

There is a lot more that can be said about growing up in the LC, but I don't want to get too far off topic. The problem with growing up in the LC is that everything related to the LC seems "normal" and everything on the outside seems "abnormal".
Thanks for your reply bro Freedom,

And I've seen plenty who have real problems upon leaving the LC and entering that "abnormal" outside world. Some have ended up in mental institutions, or treatment. Some have become alcoholics.

But then some have gone to non-harmful adjustments, like Buddhism and the like. Turns out Jesus and Buddha get along quite well.

Hay, one of my friends from as far back as 2nd grade, who was an elder in San Diego, now considers himself to be a Native American Indian Shaman.

People adjust to the abnormal outside of the LC world in all kinds of ways.

But from what I've seen children raised in the LC have serious problems adjusting to the outside world.

And those my heart most relate to.
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Old 05-17-2014, 05:30 PM   #20
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I apologize if this has been said a lot. Collecting over one million dollars from the saints to receive the two trainings is bad bad bad. I'm sure not on the insiide but it doesn't take a math major to know that 4000 plus in Anaheim twice a year at $100 per plus all the videos throughout the US add up to well over one million. Even the dishonesty of calling it a donation... Maybe they don't call it that now but they did for years.

It's inconceivable that Paul or Peter would have put a price tag on their letters. It's just plane crazy and we were so drugged, drugged, drugged. It was surely us who were drinking the kool aid.

Lisbon
Lisbon and others reading on, I believe the "donation" is now $150 per person whether in person or via video. However your point is well taken. The matter of a "donation" being treated as a "fee". If attending was sincerely regarded as a donation, it wouldn't matter if your donation was $5 or $50.

To top it off Southern California localities don't give hospitality as they did when I was a young lad. Now you've got to pay for your lodging while you're at the training. While you're there, why not look up brothers and sisters in Anaheim who used to meet with the local churches as see how they're doing?
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Old 05-17-2014, 06:11 PM   #21
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My heart is really burdened for those growing up in the local church. I grew up indoctrinated in the Southern Baptist Church. I know how it can be. And the SBC isn't even close to the cult that the local church is. From what I've seen growing up in the LC really screws up kids.
Let's not be too hard. First the responsibility falls on parents for raising their children and getting them prepared to be an adult. It is a travesty when pressures of the ministry dictates how parents should raise their children.
Second as much time as young people spend with their serving ones, the serving ones could either be used as a resource in getting young people prepared to be an adult, or they can stunt a young people getting prepared.
Since awareness did bring up the SBC, I will comment on the Southern Baptist Convention in it's comparison to the local churches. I know saints in the SBC. All their Christian experience is related to meeting with SBC churches just as children raised in the local churches don't know anything different than to meet in LSM churches. For each, it's their comfort zone.
To see what saints in community churches, Bible churches, etc are doing, you are not going to know.
They may be indoctrinated with falsehoods regarding non-LSM Christianity. I don't know. I can only speak what I was indoctrinated with growing up in the local churches. Not all was bad and not all was good.
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Old 05-17-2014, 06:14 PM   #22
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Lisbon and others reading on, I believe the "donation" is now $150 per person whether in person or via video. However your point is well taken. The matter of a "donation" being treated as a "fee". If attending was sincerely regarded as a donation, it wouldn't matter if your donation was $5 or $50.

To top it off Southern California localities don't give hospitality as they did when I was a young lad. Now you've got to pay for your lodging while you're at the training. While you're there, why not look up brothers and sisters in Anaheim who used to meet with the local churches as see how they're doing?
The local church lost its spiritual mojo a long time ago. What is said falls flat. Ron Kangas speaks and it falls flat.

Anyone paying $150 for that is among those that are born every minute.

I know a LSM brother that goes the conferences and even elders' meetings. The church pays his fees. When I ask what was spoken of he says, "I don't listen to that crap. I go to see brothers and sisters I've known for decades."

The message falls flat.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:08 PM   #23
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The local church lost its spiritual mojo a long time ago. What is said falls flat. Ron Kangas speaks and it falls flat.

Anyone paying $150 for that is among those that are born every minute.

I know a LSM brother that goes the conferences and even elders' meetings. The church pays his fees. When I ask what was spoken of he says, "I don't listen to that crap. I go to see brothers and sisters I've known for decades."

The message falls flat.
I used to pay to go to those trainings. Now you couldn't pay me to go.

Even at the point where I was attending training, I had a hard time sitting through it all. If that weren't enough study sessions every morning made it exhausting.

I have always taken issue with the fact that they called the fee a "donation". A mandatory donation is a fee, so why not call it that? Anyways, I know plenty of saints in the LCs that find ways to avoid attending the trainings. I actually find it kind of ironic that people in the LC avoid attending trainings even though such a big deal is made about how everyone should be going to the semi-annual trainings.
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:18 AM   #24
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I have always taken issue with the fact that they called the fee a "donation". A mandatory donation is a fee, so why not call it that?
To fraud the IRS.
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:27 AM   #25
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To fraud the IRS.
I was told by an LC accountant friend of mine that the IRS places zero value on the speaking of Christian ministers.

I am beginning to understand why.
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:47 PM   #26
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Relating to this I believe it was Igzy who had posted relating to this topic in Austin, TX. A City wide prayer among saints meeting in Austin churches. As I recall the LSM/LC church in Austin declined to participate.
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3302

WOW! I was just speaking in principle but they actually went and proved their complete divisiveness. I sure didn't hear about this back then. I get that some groups just want to do their own thing but if you want to say you accept all believers and then take every step to shun everyone who isn't in your group, that speaks volumes.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:32 AM   #27
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Even at the point where I was attending training, I had a hard time sitting through it all. If that weren't enough study sessions every morning made it exhausting.

I have always taken issue with the fact that they called the fee a "donation". A mandatory donation is a fee, so why not call it that? Anyways, I know plenty of saints in the LCs that find ways to avoid attending the trainings. I actually find it kind of ironic that people in the LC avoid attending trainings even though such a big deal is made about how everyone should be going to the semi-annual trainings.
I am always exhausted after all those training and sessions, too. Especially in our relatively small hall when some saints tend to talk for 20 and even 40 minutes. So on Sundays, we may start at 10 am and finish at 1 pm. It can be I who is lazy and don't want to exercise my spirit, but when I look around, I see that the majority is also tired, sleepy, and absent in their thoughts. Why does it happen? I believe this happens because we don't really have communion with the Lord while listening to speeches. In other words, we don't experience the living reality of God behind the words, doctrines, and concepts. Well, this may happen at any church. And it may be our personal fault too. But with the LRC, the whole matter boils down to dry and lifeless doctrines invented or adopted by WL. The purpose of the church is to experience living communion with God, through prayer and worship. However, based on my experience, the purpose of the LRC has little in common with it. They just want you to buy, study, and promote WL's books and doctrines.

A few weeks ago I bought this booklet "Rose Book of Bible & Christian History Time Lines".

http://www.amazon.com/Rose-Bible-Chr.../dp/1596360844

I wonder, if the LRC is the only genuine Church church, and WN and WL are such influential figures, how come their names are absent in the Christian history time line? What kind of history do they belong to?

Well, I understand that Rose Publishing might make a mistake but what about other timelines?

http://christianityinview.com/timeline.html

http://carm.org/church-history-outline

Not even Wikipedia (that "knows everything") mentions WL, WN, and their organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christianity
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:10 AM   #28
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I wonder, if the LRC is the only genuine Church church, and WN and WL are such influential figures, how come their names are absent in the Christian history time line?
Now, now. Don't give LSM any ideas. They'll edit Wiki to add Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to the Christian timeline ... even if they'd be interlopers in the timeline. You know how they are with BS.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:37 PM   #29
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But with the LRC, the whole matter boils down to dry and lifeless doctrines invented or adopted by WL. The purpose of the church is to experience living communion with God, through prayer and worship. However, based on my experience, the purpose of the LRC has little in common with it. They just want you to buy, study, and promote WL's books and doctrines.
In other words be filled with knowledge. I'm positive many of the speaking brothers know the Bible better than I do. Yet the agenda of the LSM churches seems to focused on the "high peaks" and pass over the basic fundamentals because it's considered too low. It's these basic fundamentals I need to see as the testimony of the churches.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:58 PM   #30
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For example I got a text from a current member who was staying at a long-time LC couple's home - the sister (wife) had received a Mother's Day flower bouquet from her son who is LSM full-timer. I thought to myself, man, this would have never happened 30 or maybe even 20 years ago. Mother's Day?...who cares about Mother's Day when you have 2 or 3 meetings to enjoy the Ministry! And that $20 bucks for the flowers could be better spent on the "Up-To-Date, High Peak, Ministry of the Age, Current Speaking".
Yes, things have changed a lot. I think I had mention this in my own thread under Intros & Testimonies. Today, it is understandable if you cannot attend a semi-annual training because you need to spend "Christmas" with your family. I know back then this was condemned. I believe one of the reasons so much changed was because the LRC couldn't gain and retain new members (and younger members). So this slowly crept in to allow more members to join the movement without having to sacrifice everything. I would like to start a new thread to discuss this. It would be an interesting comparison: LRC before 1990 vs after 1990.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:06 PM   #31
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But from what I've seen children raised in the LC have serious problems adjusting to the outside world.
Yes, that was me. Still dealing with issues today.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:10 PM   #32
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To top it off Southern California localities don't give hospitality as they did when I was a young lad. Now you've got to pay for your lodging while you're at the training. While you're there, why not look up brothers and sisters in Anaheim who used to meet with the local churches as see how they're doing?
They still do give hospitality; however they are not "pushed" as much to do so today, so I know many families don't do it. Again, this is another change that slowly crept in over the years in the LRC. A new thread: pre 1990 vs post 1990?
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:14 PM   #33
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I know a LSM brother that goes the conferences and even elders' meetings. The church pays his fees. When I ask what was spoken of he says, "I don't listen to that crap. I go to see brothers and sisters I've known for decades."
The message falls flat.
Yep, the 7-gatherings (trainings/conferences) has become a major social event for most; though most will not admit that. Saints who go (except for brand new ones) are much more excited about meeting up with their friends then they are about "diving into the ministry".
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:19 PM   #34
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I am always exhausted after all those training and sessions, too. Especially in our relatively small hall when some saints tend to talk for 20 and even 40 minutes. So on Sundays, we may start at 10 am and finish at 1 pm. It can be I who is lazy and don't want to exercise my spirit, but when I look around, I see that the majority is also tired, sleepy, and absent in their thoughts.
The whole things has become nothing but a show.
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:34 PM   #35
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The whole things has become nothing but a show.
The spirit of pretense drives the Lee movement now. Even Kangas is pretending. It's hollow ... shallow ... flat. They're pretending God is with them when He's not.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:32 PM   #36
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A new thread: pre 1990 vs post 1990?
Please do start. I'll look forward to reading and participating.
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:51 PM   #37
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BTW, last Sunday, in my locality, they announced that they are going to stop Crystallization-studies of the Bible and start some new training, focused on the base (basics) of Christian teaching, i.e. on the foundation of the faith. They say "You may know high-peak truth and go on growing in life, but if the foundation is weak, the whole building can collapse." I wonder why they suddenly decided to turn back. Maybe the leaders of the LRC really feel that they went too far from the message of the Gospel, and their organization may collapse without solid foundation. Or it's getting harder to recruit new members, especially those, from different denominations, who can tell the difference between the message of Christ and the message of WL.
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Old 05-25-2014, 08:32 AM   #38
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BTW, last Sunday, in my locality, they announced that they are going to stop Crystallization-studies of the Bible and start some new training, focused on the base (basics) of Christian teaching, i.e. on the foundation of the faith. They say "You may know high-peak truth and go on growing in life, but if the foundation is weak, the whole building can collapse." I wonder why they suddenly decided to turn back. Maybe the leaders of the LRC really feel that they went too far from the message of the Gospel, and their organization may collapse without solid foundation. Or it's getting harder to recruit new members, especially those, from different denominations, who can tell the difference between the message of Christ and the message of WL.
Next week we are pursuing a new HWMR. The title says "The Intrinsic Significance of the Church": The Father's House; The Son's Vine; The Spirit's Child; The Lord's Prayer in John 17 for His Glorification and for the Oneness of the Church as the Body of Christ; Taking the Shepherding Way in John 21 for the Building Up of the Church. I thumbed through it, expecting it to be something new, fresh, and vivid. But it's the same dry and tedious stuff with no life, no spirit, and no joy in Christ behind the words.
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:18 AM   #39
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I thumbed through it, expecting it to be something new, fresh, and vivid. But it's the same dry and tedious stuff with no life, no spirit, and no joy in Christ behind the words.
Once again highlighting the sad phenomenon so characterizing LSM: the lack of the real anointing of the Spirit.
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:03 PM   #40
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As the old man of the forum, I went to two or three of the elders and responsible ones meetings about ten years ago. Once or twice a speaker said something I had an inward amen to but since no one else did I of course kept quiet. With our normal noisey meetings it was so strange that all would be so quiet when just elders were present. My thinking, it's all just an act. Sorry!

So no more elders meetings, trainings, and few conferences. You do see friends at confereces and you don't have to go to the meetings. But for a retiree, it's just plain too much money. They never paid my way.

We are still forced to admit this didn't happen without the Lord's eye. I still like some posters words, Where do we go from here? We must not just complain. With all the hundreds of sects, we have to believe the Lord cares little about clearing up sects and my feeling now is that the LC has always been just another sect and very well a cult. I don't tell my LC friends that.
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Old 05-26-2014, 11:59 PM   #41
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Once again highlighting the sad phenomenon so characterizing LSM: the lack of the real anointing of the Spirit.
I think so. When I read WL's books about God, I feel as if they were written by someone who struggled to convince us that he knew everything about the Sun while he had had always lived in the light of a daylight lamp.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:53 AM   #42
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Here's an example of what I read this morning:"Christ’s being the firstborn Son of God implies that He has many brothers and that He is the Firstborn among these brothers (Rom. 8:29). The birth that took place through Christ’s resurrection involved the birth not only of an individual but of a group, a group that includes the firstborn Son and the many sons of God. This indicates that through one birth, one delivery, many sons were brought forth. This resurrection was the birth of the corporate child—the corporate new man. Thus, 1 Peter 1:3 says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” God regenerated us through Christ’s resurrection. We, as human beings, were all divinely sonized through His resurrection to be many sons of God to participate in His divine sonship. We are the many brothers of the firstborn Son of God in His resurrection. In resurrection God begot a Son, Jesus Christ, and in resurrection God regenerated many sons. This shows us that the resurrection of Christ was a great delivery. In that same delivery the Firstborn was Christ, and this firstborn Brother had many “twins” to follow Him. In the unique resurrection Christ was born and we were regenerated; hence, we were His “twins” in the same delivery. This was a universal delivery of a corporate child, which included the Son of God as the Head and His many brothers as the Body. The firstborn Son of God is the Head, and His many brothers, sons of God, are the members of Christ. Therefore, Christ’s resurrection was the one universally big delivery of Himself as the firstborn Son and the believers as His many brothers, His millions of “twins.” (The Conclusion of the New Testament, pp. 2941-2943)
Further Reading: Crystallization-study of the Epistle to the Romans, msg. 1; The Conclusion of the New Testament, msg. 48"

Twins???? Wow.
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:57 PM   #43
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Here's an example of what I read this morning:"Christ’s being the firstborn Son of God implies that He has many brothers and that He is the Firstborn among these brothers (Rom. 8:29)...
As you can read in Romans 8:15, 8:23, and 9:4; Paul refers to us "adoption as sons". Take which version you prefer; New King James, New American Standard, NIV, Darby; they are all translated this way. I expect the RcV is translated differently. I think in part to emphasize having God's life and nature, but not in the God-head. To accept "adoption as sons" would seem to nullify this teaching.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:05 PM   #44
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I still like some posters words, Where do we go from here?
At the most I go to one LC meeting a year when I visit my parents. Otherwise I have the peace to go on meeting with a community church locally. A need is being met and I don't feel inwardly disturbed unless the pastor gives a message that convicts my inner man.
The key seems to be finding an assembly you identify as your home church.
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:42 PM   #45
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I think in part to emphasize having God's life and nature, but not in the God-head. To accept "adoption as sons" would seem to nullify this teaching.
Actually the term "adoption as sons" does not nullify that we have received God's life and nature - they are very simply descriptions of two different aspects of our rich, wonderful and complete salvation.

Two very negative things happened to man at the Fall -
Through their disobedience man lost his "legal" standing to be sons of God. Though God was indeed their creator, and in a very real sense their Father, they lost this legal standing and thus lost all the rights and privileges that are naturally bestowed upon a son. They were then ejected from the Garden.

Through their choosing of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (over the Tree of Life) man lost the opportunity to become partakers of God's life and all that this entails. Whether or not one believes the Tree of Life literally contained God's life or that it was a symbolic figure of sorts, it does not change the basic fact that man missed his opportunity to become partakers of God's life, and by extension his nature as well.

The Gospel addresses both of these negative things that took place in the fall -
One: God, through the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, has restored our relationship with the Father - we have been legally and officially "adopted" back into the family as sons, with all the rights and privileges that go along with legal and official sonship. All praise and glory to the Father who has accepted us through his Son....who has called us brothers!

Two: The Gospel also addresses the other negative thing from the Fall - The missed opportunity to receive the Life of God into our entire being. At the Creation, God "breathed into man the breath of life" - So man did initially receive God's life, if nothing else as the animating, enlivening energy for his body and soul, though we know that this was not a full and complete reception of God's life. Then came the second "breathing" - And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22). Now, along with our legal and official adoption as sons we become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The reason we can partake of the divine nature is that God has breathed into us his very life - the Spirit of life, the Holy Spirit. Thank you Lord for the second breathing!

So adoption as sons and receiving God's life and nature are simply two aspects of God's comprehensive and complete salvation. They are not in the least in "competition", much less antithetical as Witness Lee would have us believe. And to be sure, let's all be clear that if any particular teaching from man seems to be "nullified" by scripture, then by all means let it be nullified, and even obliterated. "yea, let God be true, but every man a liar"
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:19 PM   #46
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Actually the term "adoption as sons" does not nullify that we have received God's life and nature - they are very simply descriptions of two different aspects of our rich, wonderful and complete salvation.
I agree with Unto. There is something about the references to adoption that remains positive. There is clearly the aspect of the impartation of life which adoption does not provide. But there is the aspect of selection of will and not just what you get from the natural process of biology that adoption brings to the table.

Ignoring the ability to terminate a pregnancy, you don't get to pick your children (or your parents). You are stuck with what you get. But God chose to provide a way out of our natural birth condition. Without denying that there is an organic aspect, adoption adds the aspect of choosing to bring those not naturally "to the manor born." We were already born, and were in a sorry state. Yet he chose to both die to remove our sin, and bring us into His house to live as his sons and daughters.

To pass by that in favor of only the organic aspect of having the life of Christ within us is to miss an important facet of what we have been brought into. It is more than just the natural organic process. It is also the act of will and choice to include us.

And while I am sure that someone will say that I am just looking for another dig at Lee, I continue to see how he decimated the whole of the revelation of scripture in favor of pet parts. Forget about the wrong theology like the "Christ became . . ." stuff. He willfully omitted much of the record by turning everything into "simply" something else. Even something else that was good.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:09 AM   #47
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Here's an example of what I read this morning:"Christ’s being the firstborn Son of God implies that He has many brothers and that He is the Firstborn among these brothers (Rom. 8:29). The birth that took place through Christ’s resurrection involved the birth not only of an individual but of a group, a group that includes the firstborn Son and the many sons of God. This indicates that through one birth, one delivery, many sons were brought forth. This resurrection was the birth of the corporate child—the corporate new man. Thus, 1 Peter 1:3 says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” God regenerated us through Christ’s resurrection. We, as human beings, were all divinely sonized through His resurrection to be many sons of God to participate in His divine sonship. We are the many brothers of the firstborn Son of God in His resurrection. In resurrection God begot a Son, Jesus Christ, and in resurrection God regenerated many sons. This shows us that the resurrection of Christ was a great delivery. In that same delivery the Firstborn was Christ, and this firstborn Brother had many “twins” to follow Him. In the unique resurrection Christ was born and we were regenerated; hence, we were His “twins” in the same delivery. This was a universal delivery of a corporate child, which included the Son of God as the Head and His many brothers as the Body. The firstborn Son of God is the Head, and His many brothers, sons of God, are the members of Christ. Therefore, Christ’s resurrection was the one universally big delivery of Himself as the firstborn Son and the believers as His many brothers, His millions of “twins.” (The Conclusion of the New Testament, pp. 2941-2943)
Further Reading: Crystallization-study of the Epistle to the Romans, msg. 1; The Conclusion of the New Testament, msg. 48"

Twins???? Wow.
"Twins", even with quotation marks, sounds weird, indeed.

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.


Christ is the only-begotten Son, the only one born of God. There isn’t anyone like Him. There is no other “Son of God” except Jesus Christ. We can't be His "twins" because we are not born of God. We are created in the image and likeness of God. After the fall of man, sin has darkened or stained God's image, but it has not annihilated it. God’s purpose is to conform us to the image of the Son. Through Christ, the image of God is renewed in man as believers are transformed by the grace of the Holy Spirit. Through our faith and by God's grace we become God's children and Christ's brethren.

Theodoret, a fifth century bishop of Cyr in Syria, explains Romans 8:29-30:

Those whose intention God foreknew, He predestined from the beginning. Those who are predestined, He called, and those who were called, He justified by baptism. Those who were justified, He glorified, calling them children…

I believe Christians can be called Christ's brothers, sisters, and friends but "twins" sounds odd to me. There is no way we can do what He has done and is doing for us. We are the clay. He is our potter. "It is not you who shape God; it is God who shapes you" - St Irenaeus, second century Bishop of Lyons, student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle.

---

Christ in Holy Scripture and devotional texts is characterized as "firstborn". Besides, in one of the Resurrectional hymns we chant: "He became the firstborn of the dead" (πρωτότοκος των νεκρών εγένετο).

The word "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος) refers to the first child of a family. This name is assigned to Christ in many ways. The Apostle Paul writes that the Son and Word of God is "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15), "the firstborn of many brethren" (Rom. 5:29) and "the firstborn from the dead" (Col. 1:18).

Saint John of Damascus, analyzing these Scriptural phrases, says that the Son and Word of God is called "the firstborn of all creation" as the Only-begotten who was born from God the Father before all ages, though creation was created in time. This is why Christ is called firstborn and not first-created. He is also characterized as "firstborn of many brethren" because in His Incarnation He received flesh similar to ours, when He was born the firstborn from His mother, and we are brethren except that He is by nature the Son of God, while we are sons of God by Grace. This is why He told His disciples: "I ascend unto My Father and your Father" (Jn. 20:17).

Within this perspective, Christ is the firstborn from the dead, because He raised Himself up first as God, and then gave this gift to us. The Apostle Paul confesses: "And He is the Head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18). Christ is the Head of the Church and has preeminence above everyone. As Christ is the firstborn of all creation, because He was born before all ages, so also He is firstborn from the dead before others. And before Him some rose from the dead by His power, but they died again. But He, with the power of His Divinity, raised His Body and remains throughout the ages alive. He was the first who emerged from Hades and arose. Saint John Chrysostom writes that He who is above all others in heaven merged Himself with those upon the earth, and in this way "He is always first; the first above, the first in the Church... first in the resurrection."

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013...from-dead.html
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:15 AM   #48
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We were already born, and were in a sorry state. Yet he chose to both die to remove our sin, and bring us into His house to live as his sons and daughters.
Given over 33,000 Christian sects we sure squabble like sons and daughters, and worse. We can't even get along within our own sect. Seems to me we're still pretty much in a sorry state. Even God's oracle on earth, Witness Lee, was in a sorry state. Look how he treated even his co-workers, not to mentions all the other sons and daughters outside his sect.
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Old 05-29-2014, 12:45 PM   #49
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Actually the term "adoption as sons" does not nullify that we have received God's life and nature - they are very simply descriptions of two different aspects of our rich, wonderful and complete salvation.
Unto, I think you're missing my point. In the mid-90's I began hearing a new teaching in the local churches that we are God in life and nature, but not in the Godhead. I could never buy into that teaching. I was predestined and chosen by God. My spirit has been regenerated, but my human birth was of fallen humanity and not as Jesus' birth was.
My analogy is recently we met a family. The couple has a daughter by adoption. She is not born of them, but her parents love her and chose her to be their daughter. Just the same way we were chosen by God and loved by God as His children.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:13 PM   #50
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Unto, I think you're missing my point. In the mid-90's I began hearing a new teaching in the local churches that we are God in life and nature, but not in the Godhead. I could never buy into that teaching. I was predestined and chosen by God. My spirit has been regenerated, but my human birth was of fallen humanity and not as Jesus' birth was.
My analogy is recently we met a family. The couple has a daughter by adoption. She is not born of them, but her parents love her and chose her to be their daughter. Just the same way we were chosen by God and loved by God as His children.
John's writings emphasize our birth as genuine sons of God.

Paul emphasizes our Roman law legal status as adopted sons of God.

Both are true, and should not contradict in any way.

Unfortunately, Lee latched onto the former, while dismissing the latter. Just another way he attempted to prove that only he was right, and all of the rest of Christianity was "poor, poor" and hopeless.
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Old 05-30-2014, 05:35 AM   #51
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Here's an example of what I read this morning:"Christ’s being the firstborn Son of God implies that He has many brothers and that He is the Firstborn among these brothers (Rom. 8:29). The birth that took place through Christ’s resurrection involved the birth not only of an individual but of a group, a group that includes the firstborn Son and the many sons of God. This indicates that through one birth, one delivery, many sons were brought forth. This resurrection was the birth of the corporate child—the corporate new man. Thus, 1 Peter 1:3 says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” God regenerated us through Christ’s resurrection. We, as human beings, were all divinely sonized through His resurrection to be many sons of God to participate in His divine sonship. We are the many brothers of the firstborn Son of God in His resurrection. In resurrection God begot a Son, Jesus Christ, and in resurrection God regenerated many sons. This shows us that the resurrection of Christ was a great delivery. In that same delivery the Firstborn was Christ, and this firstborn Brother had many “twins” to follow Him. In the unique resurrection Christ was born and we were regenerated; hence, we were His “twins” in the same delivery. This was a universal delivery of a corporate child..."

Twins???? Wow.
Note the places bolded in red. "A indicates B"; "B shows us C"; and "C implies D". Therefore the moon is made of cheese.

Also note the proprietary terminology: "sonized", "universal corporate delivery", "many twins" etc.
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:47 AM   #52
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Note the places bolded in red. "A indicates B"; "B shows us C"; and "C implies D"...
All of us do this, to some extent. We are rational beings. We read the Bible and give meaning to the words we see, based on our understanding of those words and what we suppose they convey.

"This means that" is instinctive in our thought process, and in our explanations of reality to one another.

Where it got warped, here, was that the so-called ground of the church carried the so-called deputy authority, which carried the so-called one trumpet and one speaking, so whatever Witness Lee said something meant, well, that was it. We no longer had the Bible speaking to us but rather what Witness Lee told us the Bible was speaking to us. And the difference between the two is vast.

So the thrill we initially got when Witness Lee explained the Bible to us was probably a counterfeit of the Spirit itself. "Do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit" tells me that being drunk is a counterfeit to the real experience. It is fake; it wears off over time. The Holy Spirit is the real deal. So if Witness Lee's teachings had in fact been genuine we would still be there; we wouldn't be reading these posts, and replying to them.

We are here because Lee's drug eventually wore off. The Holy Spirit's counterfeit, or analog, was manifested for what it actually was. Words and teachings.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:57 AM   #53
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Interesting comment in a podcast I heard on the way to work this morning said something like "almost every claim of finding something new is either novel repackaging of old theology, or flirting with heresy . . . and sometimes both."
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:06 PM   #54
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Interesting comment in a podcast I heard on the way to work this morning said something like "almost every claim of finding something new is either novel repackaging of old theology, or flirting with heresy . . . and sometimes both."
Good one Mike ....
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