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Old 01-28-2014, 12:43 AM   #1
InChristAlone
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Default How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am new to this forum. So I do not know if I should start a new thread or there is a similar topic where my problem has been discussed.

I am not an active member of the “Local Church” but my wife is. Generally, I do not consider myself a member of this organization. However I still attend the Lord's table meetings with my wife. But the more I attend the meetings, the more I am convinced that it's a destructive organization that deceives sincere and good-hearted people, leading them away from Christ. So my concern is how people like me (husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters, etc.) can help their relatives to know the truth about this organization?

If I start telling my wife all the bad things I have read about WN, WN, and the Local Church, she will not buy that. She is totally blinded. There is no way I can shake her trust in the cult and its idols. On the other hand, suppose she knows the truth – what then? It may not only hurt but also ruin her. I am an empty vessel, neither religious, nor spiritual. I believe in Christ, but I can’t give my wife what she gets in her sect. What should I do?

In the “Lord’s Recovery” they would say, “Pray”. Of course, I will. But are there any practical steps how to pull our dear friends and relatives out of the cult, soothe their pain, and then help them find peace, joy, and love in Christ again?

Thank you.

Blessings,
InChristAlone
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:20 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by InChristAlone View Post
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am new to this forum. So I do not know if I should start a new thread or there is a similar topic where my problem has been discussed.

I am not an active member of the “Local Church” but my wife is. Generally, I do not consider myself a member of this organization. However I still attend the Lord's table meetings with my wife. But the more I attend the meetings, the more I am convinced that it's a destructive organization that deceives sincere and good-hearted people, leading them away from Christ. So my concern is how people like me (husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters, etc.) can help their relatives to know the truth about this organization?

If I start telling my wife all the bad things I have read about WN, WN, and the Local Church, she will not buy that. She is totally blinded. There is no way I can shake her trust in the cult and its idols. On the other hand, suppose she knows the truth – what then? It may not only hurt but also ruin her. I am an empty vessel, neither religious, nor spiritual. I believe in Christ, but I can’t give my wife what she gets in her sect. What should I do?

In the “Lord’s Recovery” they would say, “Pray”. Of course, I will. But are there any practical steps how to pull our dear friends and relatives out of the cult, soothe their pain, and then help them find peace, joy, and love in Christ again?

Thank you.

Blessings,
InChristAlone
I may be wrong, but I think few people here who have escaped LC did so because someone else convinced them to do so.

The first practical step is to renounce all desire to pull them out of the cult. This must be the last thing on your mind. The cult is like one of those Chinese finger traps - you pull, it tightens.

Just be happy she's found something she likes - if you don't like it, you gotta show her something better, that's girlfriend 101. I am sure it's the same with wives. Within two months of me leaving LC and enjoying something else on a Sunday, my gf was "jaaaaaaaaames73, can I come to X with you??".

And of course I told her no. "You gotta keep going to the Lord's Table!" I said and that was the clincher, she's not been back since. Hahaha. If that sounds manipulative, it wasn't intended like that at the time it just happened. And it COULD happen because I followed practical step #1 above.

Well, that was my experience. Not belittling anyone else's more difficult extraction, and I know there are enough tragic stories on these boards to show that really, it's a lot of luck whether a couple gets out as one piece or gets broken up.

Good luck!
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:30 AM   #3
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james73, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You are right. I gotta show her something better. So far I have no idea what it may be. I can't convince her because for any leeist, WL is a greater spiritual authority than anyone else. I want it to be her inner work, but I do not know what can trigger that.

Wish there were a method or an algorithm, but it usually goes with logic. While someone's belief is an irrational thing.

I’d like to stop going to the Lord’s Table, but I am afraid my wife will not understand me. I will be another sinner who needs a lot of prayer.

Thanks again! And God bless.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:19 AM   #4
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Bro InChristAlone, how long have y'all been in the LC?
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:39 AM   #5
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james73, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You are right. I gotta show her something better. So far I have no idea what it may be. I can't convince her because for any leeist, WL is a greater spiritual authority than anyone else. I want it to be her inner work, but I do not know what can trigger that.

Wish there were a method or an algorithm, but it usually goes with logic. While someone's belief is an irrational thing.

I’d like to stop going to the Lord’s Table, but I am afraid my wife will not understand me. I will be another sinner who needs a lot of prayer.

Thanks again! And God bless.
Hi, I actually went through something similar with my wife and can imagine how tough of a situation it is. I prayed that if God wanted us to leave then he had to help me make it happen. And he did, gloriously. After some time the real fruits of being in the LC manifested itself and that was the evidence God gave me to help steer my wife to the truth.

If you'd like to fellowship more here is my email:

sam at eternityinourheart dot com
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:46 AM   #6
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Bro InChristAlone, how long have y'all been in the LC?
My wife has been there since she was a kid. I think it's over 30 years. As for me, it's about 7 years.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:49 AM   #7
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My wife has been there since she was a kid. I think it's over 30 years. As for me, it's about 7 years.
Have you been married that long? Any kids?
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:57 AM   #8
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My wife has been there since she was a kid. I think it's over 30 years. As for me, it's about 7 years.
Even after we left my wife still had some doubts because we were leaving so much behind (all our friendships, and service in ministry), but ultimately she sealed her decision ironically because of a teaching they stressed in the LC- that a wife has to submit to her husband, and this is the reason she used to those who were trying to get her back (I share this with you because it could be something you could use). In the locality we left, I was portrayed as the enemy who was evilly influencing her, but thank God she stuck by me which I am very thankful to both God and her for.

It all started when I think God spoke to me in the morning during prayer time. The thought was "unless you leave the LCs, you cannot become an overcomer". I didn't hear it audibly but it was such a strong thought and it was overwhelming me. So I asked God that if this was from him then he had to help my wife see things the way I did about the LC. After that prayer, a chain of events started which led us to leave.

In all this process I gave my wife a lot of freedom and never forced my will onto her. I just gave her my perspective. I was afraid if I forced her that she would push back and concerning this point, I think james is very correct. However I did tell her that I felt I was dying spiritually in the LCs and had no way to go on which was true at the time.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:44 AM   #9
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Bring her straight to the Word of God (no footnotes). If she's been in the LC that long she's probably most comfortable with the recovery version, and chances are she's got an older copy of it without the footnotes. Read through Psalms or James slowly, carefully and perhaps with some cross references. Let the Word work on her without any filter. She'll learn how to read (something I think most lcers don't know how to do). This isn't just good for her or someone in the lc, it's good for all believers. And above all, trust God. His word is powerful and better than any footnote.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:10 AM   #10
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Also I think prayer is very important. After I believed it was God's will for us to leave and I prayed to this direction, God gave me the wisdom to help steer my wife away from the LCs gradually. Another thing that contributed was getting in touch with healthy non-LC Christians so that my wife could witness that there is really healthy fruit out there outside of the LCs. In my case this was my aunt.

One compelling reason why God doesn't want people to stay in the LC is simple: He is angry when people steal the glory that belongs to him. When Herod simply failed to give God the glory, he was smited (Acts 12:18-25). Another example is when Hezekiah showed off all the things God gave him to the Babylonians. Despite having been faithful to God all his life, his kingdom was severely judged for his hubris. Some "servants" of God throughout history have unfortunately followed in the same pattern and one would really hate to be in their shoes on the day of judgment.

You can make a strong argument for why Witness Lee and the ministry he left behind has stolen the glory that belongs to God. Many times in an LC meeting you'll hear his name or his ministry glorified and credited more times than even the name of Jesus. I think this is a point that all LCers are aware of and subconsciously know they are guilty of and one can also work in this direction.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:27 AM   #11
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You can make a strong argument for why Witness Lee and the ministry he left behind has stolen the glory that belongs to God. Many times in an LC meeting you'll hear his name or his ministry glorified and credited more times than even the name of Jesus.
One time a brother from the Great Lakes Area actually counted 33 times in one semi-annual training message where "Blended" brother Ed Marks extolled the glorious name and ministry of Witness Lee.

I can go to a Lutheran church and never hear the wonderful name of Luther ... and yet the LC's vociferously proclaim they are not "of Lee," and meanwhile claim all Lutherans are "of Luther."

"And wisdom is vindicated by her children..."
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:07 AM   #12
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Hi, I actually went through something similar with my wife. I prayed that if God wanted us to leave then he had to help me make it happen. And he did, gloriously. After some time the real fruits of being in the LC manifested itself and that was all the evidence God gave me to help steer my wife to the truth.

If you'd like to fellowship more here is my email:

sam at eternityinourheart dot com
Thank you, Sam. I think you have a good point. With God all things are possible. I'll keep in touch with you soon.

Besides prayer, I believe I need to start questioning the doctrine. Step by step. It's my fault that I used to take it for granted. I did not really bother to check out the facts. Even when I read something that did not make sense to me, I thought, "Ok. Maybe it's in the Bible. I do not know the Scriptures well enough".

I was saved in a "denominational church", and started to attend the Local Church conferences and the Lord's table meetings after my marriage. At the beginning, I tried to understand the teaching. It seemed all right to me. A bit advanced because I could not get why they need the "Body", "oneness" and the New Jerusalem when they are not ready for these things. (In my humble opinion). But then I wanted to be closer to Christ. I wanted to learn how to forgive and love my neighbour. But they kept on teaching me something else. They wanted me to have oneness, to be in one accord, and keep on building the 'Body". What for? Where is the way to Christ here? How can we have oneness if we do not have love in our hearts?

Looking back I now believe that the Local Church does not give a good path for a spiritual growth. You can be full of knowledge, but if you have no love in your heart, why do you need that information? Take a look at the leaders of the organization. They seem to be nice people, and they have a proper appearance. But do they look spiritual? To me they look and talk like scholars and lecturers, not spiritual leaders. Appearances are deceptive, but not in numbers.

One more thing that doesn’t make sense to me is shouting while praying at prayer meetings. We all know that God is omnipresent, i.e. present everywhere at the same time. Why do we need to chant and shout then? To be heard? God can hear even our breath. So why do we need to scream out? If we do not talk to our parents in such a way, why do we do that to Our Heavenly Father? They say they touch the Lord in this way. Maybe. Thought I have never seen anyone touched. Affected by their emotions and noise – yes. But that’s all.

I am sorry for my wife and other believers. Most of them are sincere, naive and good-hearted people. It’s pity that they have been deceived.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:17 AM   #13
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Have you been married that long? Any kids?
Yup, that long. No kids...
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:30 AM   #14
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Even after we left my wife still had some doubts because we were leaving so much behind (all our friendships, and service in ministry), but ultimately she sealed her decision ironically because of a teaching they stressed in the LC- that a wife has to submit to her husband, and this is the reason she used to those who were trying to get her back (I share this with you because it could be something you could use). In the locality we left, I was portrayed as the enemy who was evilly influencing her, but thank God she stuck by me which I am very thankful to both God and her for.

It all started when I think God spoke to me in the morning during prayer time. The thought was "unless you leave the LCs, you cannot become an overcomer". I didn't hear it audibly but it was such a strong thought and it was overwhelming me. So I asked God that if this was from him then he had to help my wife see things the way I did about the LC. After that prayer, a chain of events started which led us to leave.

In all this process I gave my wife a lot of freedom and never forced my will onto her. I just gave her my perspective. I was afraid if I forced her that she would push back and concerning this point, I think james is very correct. However I did tell her that I felt I was dying spiritually in the LCs and had no way to go on which was true at the time.
Thank you, bearbear! God blessed you with a wonderful wife.

I can say the same about mine. My wife does listens to me. But this organization is her whole life. She has been over 30 years in the cult (since her childhood). And we have been married about 7 years. I do not know what to expect. The only thing I can do is to pray and submit myself to God and His will.

You are right about the spiritual death in the LC. I feel the same.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:37 AM   #15
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Bring her straight to the Word of God (no footnotes). If she's been in the LC that long she's probably most comfortable with the recovery version, and chances are she's got an older copy of it without the footnotes. Read through Psalms or James slowly, carefully and perhaps with some cross references. Let the Word work on her without any filter. She'll learn how to read (something I think most lcers don't know how to do). This isn't just good for her or someone in the lc, it's good for all believers. And above all, trust God. His word is powerful and better than any footnote.
ABrotherinFaith, thank you for the piece of good advice!

Could you please share why it must be Psalms and James? If I am not mistaken, I heard WL was not in favor with them or something. Could you explain that to me, please?
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:39 AM   #16
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No kids...
In the situation you are in make sure you don't make any. You're in a pickle enough already.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:45 AM   #17
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One time a brother from the Great Lakes Area actually counted 33 times in one semi-annual training message where "Blended" brother Ed Marks extolled the glorious name and ministry of Witness Lee.

I can go to a Lutheran church and never hear the wonderful name of Luther ... and yet the LC's vociferously proclaim they are not "of Lee," and meanwhile claim all Lutherans are "of Luther."

"And wisdom is vindicated by her children..."
Ohio, bearbear, thanks! Another good point. I will ask my wife to start counting.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:08 PM   #18
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I was saved in a "denominational church"
Brother, this matter of denominations is a big deception which strikes at the core of their existence. After decades of dealing with this, I came to the conclusion that what makes a "denomination" is not a name, but a controlling headquarters, which LSM is. How can they claim to not have a name, when they sued my old "church in Columbus" over the rights to that name? What hypocrisy is that?


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I could not get why they need the "Body", "oneness" and the New Jerusalem when they are not ready for these things ... They wanted me to have oneness, to be in one accord, and keep on building the 'Body". What for?
After studying much church history, I learned that these teachings of distorted oneness have been some of the most destructive of all. At best they are controlling and manipulative, at worst they were used by the Catholic Church to torture and kill all those who violated the "oneness of the Holy Catholic Church." Because of the demands of distorted oneness, members were forced to conform to every heresy and evil Satan threw at them. Under the threat of death, and tortures to bring about compliance, all Catholics were forced to kneel to Marble Mary in order to "keep the oneness."

Proper Biblical oneness emphasizes our relationship with God and those around us. Corinthians tells us it is "many members, but one body," which was the local church in Corinth. Lee convinced us it was "many churches, but one body," which could only be realized in his ministry at LSM. Thus your relationship with others was far less significant than your relationship "with the ministry." This one error alone explains why their is so little love in that program, and how they can sue anyone who disagrees.


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But then I wanted to be closer to Christ. I wanted to learn how to forgive and love my neighbour. Where is the way to Christ here? How can we have oneness if we do not have love in our hearts?
You're not the first one who was troubled by this. Back in the 70's we did have much emphasis on love and forgiveness. We would always examine our heart before we broke bread, asking the Lord to shine on any offenses. More than once I sought out a brother to apologize to right before we broke bread.

My how things have changed!


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Looking back I now believe that the Local Church does not give a good path for a spiritual growth. You can be full of knowledge, but if you have no love in your heart, why do you need that information? Take a look at the leaders of the organization. They seem to be nice people, and they have a proper appearance. But do they look spiritual? To me they look and talk like scholars and lecturers, not spiritual leaders. Appearances are deceptive, but not in numbers.
Read what the apostle Paul says about love in I Cor 13, and the lack thereof. I no longer believe that the Recovery even cares about spiritual growth. It is all about commitment to their program. Over the years the leaders have also changed. All of those who were genuinely spiritual have been either quarantined or left voluntarily because of what was happening.


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One more thing that doesn’t make sense to me is shouting while praying at prayer meetings. We all know that God is omnipresent, i.e. present everywhere at the same time. Why do we need to chant and shout then? To be heard? God can hear even our breath. So why do we need to scream out? If we do not talk to our parents in such a way, why do we do that to Our Heavenly Father? They say they touch the Lord in this way. Maybe. Thought I have never seen anyone touched. Affected by their emotions and noise – yes. But that’s all.
There are times when shouting was real and anointed by the Spirit. What they are left with today, however, is called "vain babbling."


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I am sorry for my wife and other believers. Most of them are sincere, naive and good-hearted people. It’s pity that they have been deceived.
I place all the responsibility on the evil workers. Paul call them "dogs." As you say, nearly all the saints I have ever known were genuinely precious.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:12 PM   #19
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I can say the same about mine. My wife does listens to me. But this organization is her whole life. She has been over 30 years in the cult (since her childhood). And we have been married about 7 years. I do not know what to expect. The only thing I can do is to pray and submit myself to God and His will.

You are right about the spiritual death in the LC. I feel the same.
Just a suggestion ... please do not use the word "cult."

It will produce the opposite effect of what you intend to accomplish.

(Some of the posters will disagree with me though.)
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:46 PM   #20
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I may be wrong, but I think few people here who have escaped LC did so because someone else convinced them to do so.
I would not encourage that. It may result in stumbling. If a brother or sister has the peace to meet in the local churches, let them in peace.
My experience required no convincing. At least directly. In directly through the evil speaking of former leading ones, something was off and it seemed as if I was the only who was inwardly disturbed by the condescension and slander until I came to formerly thebereans.net and now this forum.
I don't see quite as escaping the local churches, but needing to find a Christian fellowship that meets my spiritual needs.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:08 PM   #21
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Just a suggestion ... please do not use the word "cult."

It will produce the opposite effect of what you intend to accomplish.

(Some of the posters will disagree with me though.)
Like me. Who was fortunate enough to see the cult face to face.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:15 PM   #22
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I would not encourage that. It may result in stumbling. If a brother or sister has the peace to meet in the local churches, let them in peace.
My experience required no convincing. At least directly. In directly through the evil speaking of former leading ones, something was off and it seemed as if I was the only who was inwardly disturbed by the condescension and slander until I came to formerly thebereans.net and now this forum.
I don't see quite as escaping the local churches, but needing to find a Christian fellowship that meets my spiritual needs.
My wife would have never realized the need to leave the LCs, but now after we left we both know we were much better off for it despite the warnings from some LCers that we would fall spiritually. Our marriage is also much better off now.

This brother's post is spot on. We've both learned to love and forgive much more than in the past due to being fed by our current church ministry. This has helped our marriage and relationships tremendously. There was also a lot of brokenness in our past, such as my struggle with rejection, bitterness, unforgiveness and shyness that God was able to heal in us through the word, his speaking and the ministry from the new church we are in. I'm a completely different person now than I was in the LCs and it feels good to be free and have all these chains broken, and I hope others can come to share in this after leaving the LCs.

A lot of strain was brought into our relationship because of the new baby, but we've been able to overcome a lot of difficulties and pitfalls in our marriage through a lot of prayer, love, forgiveness and trying to see things from the other person's perspective. I think my marriage would have been in danger honestly had we not found the church we're meeting in now.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:30 PM   #23
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My wife would have never realized the need to leave the LCs, but now after we left we both know we were much better off for it despite the warnings from some LCers that we would fall spiritually. Our marriage is also much better off now.

This brother's post is spot on. We've both learned to love and forgive much more than in the past due to being fed by our current church ministry. This has helped our marriage and relationships tremendously. There was also a lot of brokenness in our past, such as my struggle with rejection, bitterness, unforgiveness and shyness that God was able to heal in us through the word, his speaking and the ministry from the new church we are in. I'm a completely different person now than I was in the LCs and it feels good to be free and have all these chains broken, and I hope others can come to share in this after leaving the LCs.
Amen! My wife was not raised in the local churches as I was. She enjoyed being with the brothers and sisters for the Lord's Table, but was indifferent towards Witness Lee's ministry. A bigger concern is how we regard one another as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Since moving on, the Community church we now meet, I learned an important lesson about grace. How to give grace practically.

For my parents, for my uncle and aunt, I would never try to convince them to leave. It's much more than spiritual. For many of the older couples I know in their 60's and 70's, the local church is their social connection.
For younger brothers I know raised in the local churches, I wouldn't say anything that could result in them being stumbled. As long as it meets your need, go on positively.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:22 PM   #24
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In the situation you are in make sure you don't make any. You're in a pickle enough already.
awareness, you are right, but we still want to have kids. I'll leave it to the Lord.

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Brother, this matter of denominations is a big deception which strikes at the core of their existence. After decades of dealing with this, I came to the conclusion that what makes a "denomination" is not a name, but a controlling headquarters, which LSM is. How can they claim to not have a name, when they sued my old "church in Columbus" over the rights to that name? What hypocrisy is that?
Ohio, I agree with you. The Local Church is a denomination in its own right, the denomination of Witness Lee. When they say they do not have any hierarchy, it doesn't look plausible to me. What about their elders, responsible brothers, full-timers and WL on the top of this structure? Isn't it some kind of hierarchy? When I pointed this issue to my wife, she said, “We are all equal. We are all brothers and sisters, nobody is higher than anybody else.” But then... why do they collect money so that some of these equal brothers to get a salary? They seem to be doing a priest’s job.

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After studying much church history, I learned that these teachings of distorted oneness have been some of the most destructive of all...

Proper Biblical oneness emphasizes our relationship with God and those around us. Corinthians tells us it is "many members, but one body," which was the local church in Corinth. Lee convinced us it was "many churches, but one body," which could only be realized in his ministry at LSM. Thus your relationship with others was far less significant than your relationship "with the ministry." This one error alone explains why their is so little love in that program, and how they can sue anyone who disagrees.
That’s a very good point.

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Read what the apostle Paul says about love in I Cor 13, and the lack thereof. I no longer believe that the Recovery even cares about spiritual growth. It is all about commitment to their program. Over the years the leaders have also changed. All of those who were genuinely spiritual have been either quarantined or left voluntarily because of what was happening.
1 Corinthians 13

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

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I place all the responsibility on the evil workers. Paul call them "dogs." As you say, nearly all the saints I have ever known were genuinely precious.
I have never met the evil workers. Maybe they are in the headquarters. But I do not see a way for the genuinely precious saints to know the truth and leave this organization... Unless bro Ed, bro Ron and Co. tell them “We were wrong.”

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Just a suggestion ... please do not use the word "cult."
Maybe not at the very beginning. Ideally, I’d like it to be her own conclusion.

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If a brother or sister has the peace to meet in the local churches, let them in peace.
That’s a problem for me. My wife has the peace. She “enjoys the Lord” in the Lord’s Recovery. But it’s a false church, and I do not want my wife to follow false prophets and their questionable doctrines. She does not grow spiritually. Besides, she encourages other people to join this organization.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:56 PM   #25
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Brothers, I’d like to thank all of you for your words of support and encouragement. Two days ago I had no idea what to do. Now, with your help, I have some ideas that look like a plan. I just need God’s grace.

I also want to thank the brother who sent me this private message, along with his kind permission to post it here. I believe his advice will be helpful for everyone who is in my shoes.

Quote:
I would suggest one simple 'operating instruction' from the mouth of Jesus himself: "What God has put together, let no man tear apart." God put you and your wife together. Just be simple and love her. Don't stress about the Local Church thing. Just be a simple, grateful redeemed sinner who has been rescued by the love of God in Christ Jesus. And God in His wisdom put you with your wife. So my advice is to respect that, and respect that for now anyway God has allowed her to be in the Local Church.

My point is don't focus on your wife's relationship with the Local Church, but rather focus on what you can control, which is your relationship with your wife. If you work at it every day it will be "heaven" to you, even if she is in the Local Church. If she is there, then you are there. Why? Because you are with her, and God gave you an unbreakable love for her. God put you together. Nothing will break this.

If your wife sees, every day, evidence of your great love for her in Christ Jesus then she will be happy. Let God deal with the Local Church situation. God put her, or allowed her anyway, to be there. God put you together. So just seek God there and he'll bless you.

Peace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

p.s. As far as prayer I find that we too often ask for 'our' things, instead of asking what does God want. If we find ourselves seeking what God wants ("seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness") then God can easily deal with our needs and our situations. If your prayers begin to echo the prayers of the interceding Jesus in heaven, then you will begin to see the earth move around you. Note the impact Jesus had on the earth. Anyone can can have that impact if they simply seek the Father's will. Forget about you, your wife, the Local Church. Seek God's kingdom. You will be astonished at what happens. God will surprise you. He loves to bless His children!
God bless you all.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:13 AM   #26
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Brothers, I’d like to thank all of you for your words of support and encouragement. Two days ago I had no idea what to do. Now, with your help, I have some ideas that look like a plan. I just need God’s grace.

I also want to thank the brother who sent me this private message, along with his kind permission to post it here. I believe his advice will be helpful for everyone who is in my shoes.
So what I'm hearing is, your solution is : get out of your mind and turn to your spirit ; make kids ; and go on with Christ and the church ; prayer will empower you ; pretending will sustain you.

Good luck with that.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:41 AM   #27
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So what I'm hearing is, your solution is : get out of your mind and turn to your spirit ; make kids ; and go on with Christ and the church ; prayer will empower you ; pretending will sustain you.

Good luck with that.
Wow awareness, you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You just jumped all over the poor guy.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:51 AM   #28
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So what I'm hearing is, your solution is : get out of your mind and turn to your spirit ; make kids ; and go on with Christ and the church ; prayer will empower you ; pretending will sustain you.

Good luck with that.
Have I announced my solution?
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:55 AM   #29
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Wow awareness, you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You just jumped all over the poor guy.
That's all right. I love awareness, and I am glad he can't read my thoughts.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:05 AM   #30
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That's all right. I love awareness, and I am glad he can't read my thoughts.
Yeah he's a great guy.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:21 AM   #31
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Wow awareness, you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You just jumped all over the poor guy.
I know, I went off half cocked. Maxima mea culpa. But just this week sister Dancing shared how a bro committed suicide, and all the elders did to help was to tell him to turn to Christ.

And I felt that that's what our bro was being advised to do.

So I spelled it out in LC lingo ... except the pretense part ... on second thought ... there's prolly plenty of pretending going in the local church.

Sorry if I sounded mean. I can be an idiot sometimes.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:29 PM   #32
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I know, I went off half cocked. Maxima mea culpa. But just this week sister Dancing shared how a bro committed suicide, and all the elders did to help was to tell him to turn to Christ.

And I felt that that's what our bro was being advised to do.

So I spelled it out in LC lingo ... except the pretense part ... on second thought ... there's prolly plenty of pretending going in the local church.

Sorry if I sounded mean. I can be an idiot sometimes.
Brother, you sounded frank, not mean to me. I see your point.

I am really grateful to all brothers for their advice. It might seem vague but it's not. They told me about their experience. They shared their points of view. And they were wise enough not to tell me "Hey bro, we have a clear plan for ya. Do A first, then - B, C, and D, and then you will succeed." We are all different. Someone's perfect plan may not work out for me.

My goal is to open my wife's eyes, pull her out of the cult, and bring her to Christ. That's not an easy task because I must be there, too. But when there is a will, there is a way. I know it will take lots of inner and outer work. But if God’s will and mine are one, why should I give up? I am going to get a notepad, collect information, ask my wife lots of questions, and then draw conclusions. And of course, I will need to pray more. To pull off the plan, I have to become something else than I am now. To open the "door", I need to obtain the key first. Will I be able to get it, I do not know. The journey looks challenging, but the reward is worth the effort.

I want to share another message that I received from the brother. I have been touched, and I hope that people who are in my shoes will be inspired as well.

Quote:
The Lord gave me three words for you. the first was from Luke 2.

13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”


Our job as Christians is to see, by faith, what those angels saw. To see the glory of God, to praise Him, and to announce the good news. Just ask God to show you His glory. He will show it to you. It will change your life forever. Suddenly everything will make sense. Even your wife being in the Local Church!

The second word is also from Luke, from chapter 4.

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”


That anointing, that power of the Spirit is fully yours today. Just focus on God. Make this focus your life. If you seek first this kingdom then God will take care of everything else. Beyond your relationship with God, your relationship with your wife is the second most important thing in your life. Just be "one" with her. She is the companion God gave you. God gave you the power to be the companion that she has always wanted. It is you. You are the husband God gave to her. Be that man. If you have respect for God (and I know that you do) you will be that man.

The third verse is from Acts 10. Peter is speaking to Cornelius.

36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

This power to do good and heal those around you is now yours and is in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. God has given you the right Spirit, and has put people all around you, including (importantly) your wife. Just be the man that God wants you to be. Believe me, God can deal with the Local Church, and what is going on there. God can do anything. Be at peace!
Thanks again to all the brothers.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:48 PM   #33
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I have just received this email from another brother. I want to thank him and also share his wonderful message. I know, brothers, you may not need it. You have solved your problem. So I am doing it for people who may find themselves in my situation.

Quote:
Always bring things to the Lord in prayer and in all things seek his will and he'll give you wisdom and put words into your mouth when you speak to your wife.

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.

I gave you my experience as something to draw from, but my situation could be totally different God will lead you and your wife to the truth! His word says so.


John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.



God Bless!
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:07 PM   #34
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Today I experienced excruciating chronic shoulder pain preventing me from doing much so I went to the grocery store to pick up some Tylenol. On the way there I prayed that God would show me someone to share the gospel with since it had been a while. As I came out of the store, a homeless gentleman by the name of Tom asked me for help because the recycling center next to Nob Hill was closed prematurely. Long story short I got to help them out materially and minister to him and his friend Anthony by sharing the gospel and God's love for them. Tom was so touched that God cared enough about him to send someone to provide for their need that he cried. I felt so blessed that God answered my prayer so quickly and gave me the opportunity to sow into their lives because God loves the homeless.

However, after I left, I realized I had forgotten to pray for their healing to show them God's love via his power. It's something I've been reminding myself to do after watching so many of Tom Fischer's videos on youtube (see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E62EgXvqfrc). But then as I walked home regretting that I didn't push further towards healing in ministry, I noticed my own shoulder pain was COMPLETELY GONE. Praise God! It's the first time I experienced healing like this and I didn't ask for it then, though I'd been praying all day for it since the pain was so overwhelming. I may have forgotten to pray to heal them, but God didn't forget to heal me

In all this I was reminded by God how much he wants us to help the poor. This is one of the glaring flaws of Witness Lee's ministry, that they deliberately avoid ministering to the poor when it's on God's heart that we do so. And then I realized, this is an argument we can also press into to when helping others to realize the truth about Lee's ministry.

God's word clearly shows he is concerned for the poor and needy. In the Matthew 25 sheep/goat judgment Jesus personally damns the goats because they turned a cold shoulder to the poor. Many people also think Sodom was judged due to sexual immorality which is true, but their original sin was that they were proud and didn't help the poor and needy:

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

There are tons of other scripture to this regard I'm sure the rest of you can pull up. Lee abused Jesus' words "the poor and needy you have with you always" referring to the disciples question: "Why this waste?" regarding Mary's pouring of the alabaster flask to justify not helping the poor and needy when the bible clearly teaches elsewhere that helping the poor should be an integral part of Christian ministry. For some reason Lee was so willing to over emphasize those verses while overlooking the Apostle Paul's willingness to include helping the poor as part of his ministry:

Galatians 2:10 ESV
Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:00 AM   #35
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That's a good news, brother bearbear! I don't want to sound like a leeist, but I do want to say, "Praise the Lord!"

Brothers, can somebody make a short list of other glaring flaws of Witness Lee's ministry?

I have some links:

Questionable Teachings of the “Local Church” and Living Stream Ministry
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.co...al-church.html

The Exclusivism of the Local Church by Jim Moran
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?o...d=478&Itemid=8

Watching Out for Watchman Nee
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/wnee.html

The History of Witness Lee's son, Philip Lee
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=39435

The Writing on the Wall
http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-.../chapter-1.htm

The False Gospel of Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministries
http://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/...am-ministries/

Witness Lee's Local Church Denomination
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html

The Overcomers and the Non-Overcomers
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#Overcomers

Easy-Believism
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#easy

Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ad.php?p=30719
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ad.php?p=30712

Open Letter to Ron Kangas
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=529

Concerns about the Local Churches
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4734

Did Witness Lee believe his teaching on "One city one church"?
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4090

Speaking the Truth in Love - John Ingalls. Speaking the Truth in Love

A True Account of Events and Concerns Related to The Local Churches 1987 – 1989

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=411

My Experience in the Local Churches – Steve Isitt
http://www.twoturmoils.com/MyExperie...alChurches.pdf

Ex-Member's Memoirs
http://www.thethreadofgold.com/TheThreadOfGold.pdf

My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr. Hsu
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3489
http://www.amazon.com/The-Unforgetta.../dp/1612157874
http://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgettab...cm_cr-mr-title

Open Letter To the Leadership of The Local Church of Witness Lee
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...of-Witness-Lee

Important Facts About Witness Lee's Cult
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/wlcult.htm

A Ex-Local Church Testimony
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx13.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx12.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx11.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx8.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx1.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx4.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx9.html


But I want something brief and easy for understanding. Something that any leeist can comprehend, test, and decide if it's right or not. I don't mean Modalism, "the Processed God", and other rocket science. An ordinary leeist trusts his guru in these questions because the guru "knows best". I want something simple, down to earth, and... glowing. Take Lee's attitude to the poor and other churches, easy-believism, or the "overcomer" thing which is not in the Bible.

Thanks!
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:01 AM   #36
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Brothers, can somebody make a short list of other glaring flaws of Witness Lee's ministry?

I have a few links:
You have done your homework ICA. This is helpful. Perhaps it can be made "sticky."
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:29 AM   #37
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You have done your homework ICA. This is helpful. Perhaps it can be made "sticky."
I am still in the process. Wish someone could help me to systematize my thoughts.

Right now I am thinking of an algorithm that might make a leeist with rational mind leave the Local Church, in other words, what he should know about this organization and how this knowledge can help him to make a decision.

1 The False Gospel of Witness Lee.

One should know that the Local Church doesn't follow teachings of Christ but Witness Lee’s teachings. And they are two different things.

How the Local Church doctrines contradict the teachings of Scripture... (There must be some examples)

a) The Overcomers and the Non-Overcomers.

"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:3-5

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#Overcomers

b) Easy-Believism

"And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." In this phrase they take "calling on the name" out of context, not considering the figure of speech being used. But they should have realized their error if they simply read Romans 10.

Romans 10:13,14

"for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

To call on someone's name is not simply to mouth the words, as they advocate. One must first know the person. In reality what happens in such conversions is that a person is given the phrase "O Lord Jesus", and then sticks it on whatever idol the person has built in their own mind of what a "Jesus" is, rather than conforming their definition of Christ to the Bible. (But then again I find similar practices quite common in other evangelical churches too).

Secondly in teaching unbelievers to say "O Lord" they are teaching people to lie. To call Jesus "Lord" without the intention of doing what he said, that is to practice lying. Jesus said,"Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?"Luke 6:46 According to Jesus what he thinks calling him "Lord" means is that, perhaps among other things, you are agreeing to to what he said. In fact there are perhaps many Christians who likewise are lying, not having the right to call Jesus "Lord", as allegedly "believing in Christ" but without the intention of doing what he said.
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#easy

c) ...

d) ...

2 The Local Church and Non-denominational Churches.

The Local Church is not a non-denomination church, but a denomination in its own right, the denomination of Witness Lee.

a) Principles, signs, and similarities of denominational churches and the church of Witness Lee.

- reading texts written by only one author
- undivided authority - headquarters and LSM
- indisputable authority of Witness Lee and elders
- hierarchy - full-times, elders and responsible brothers
-
-

3 The Local Church and Cult Characteristics.

a) Principles, warning signs, and similarities between cults and the church of Witness Lee.

- self-appointed, dogmatic and messianic leader who is always right.
- reading texts written by one author.
- undivided authority - headquarters and LSM.
- indisputable reputation and authority of Witness Lee and elders
- WL is the exclusive means of knowing "truth", no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
- anything the leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
- no critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate. The leadership are godly, honest, have divine authority and you must trust them.
- extreme obsessiveness regarding the leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration ("Fellowship with brothers", "Ask the Lord which tie to wear today.")
- misplaced loyalty. Loyalty for Christ is replaced by the Local Church and Witness Lee.
- claiming to have a special corner on the truth, something no other groups has. They put down other churches, while pointing out their faults and errors to build themselves up.
- blind loyalty to whatever Witness Lee and elders say.
- pride of the group. We are the only ones who are right. (As a brother said, "They don't think they can learn anything from you. They believe that already have all the answers").
- they alone have the truth so one must join them to be saved. The cult has an us against them attitude.
- submission.
- preoccupying with bringing in new members.
- discouraging questioning and critical thinking, rejection of rational analysis and constructive criticism.
- automatic acceptance of beliefs.
- devotion to convert others to their group and its belief system. Service to the church is understood as service to God. Meetings are mandatory. One's meetings will keep them so busy they will no longer have time for their friends and family, job or hobbies.
- blind implicit belief in Witness Lee and his word.
- Mind-numbing, mind-altering practices and techniques.
- elitism, claiming a special, exalted status for themselves and their teachings.
- inducing guilt feelings in members.
- Divine Commission - claiming new revelation from God.
- schedule control, major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals, keeping members so busy they don't have time to think. They expect you to attend all group activities.
- mind programming and intense study with focus is on the LC doctrines.
- extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda - radio, books, magazines, journals, bookshops.
- excessive use of fear, fear of thinking independently, fear of losing one's "salvation", fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group, fear of disapproval.
- phobia indoctrination - programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The members feel there can be no life outside the context of the Local Church. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
- no happiness or fulfillment "outside" of the group.
- terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; etc.
- shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
- never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group's perspective, people who leave are: "weak"; "undisciplined"; "unspiritual"; "worldly"; "brainwashed by family, counselors"; seduced by money, power, sex, rock and roll.
- information control.
- need to ask permission for major decisions.
- rejection of old values.
- confusing doctrines.
- adopting "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés").
- need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth".
- individualism discouraged, group think prevails.
- thought-stopping techniques - chanting, hamming and various forms of repetitive actions to stop critical thinking.
- no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or evil.
- former followers are at best considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
- former members relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
- striving for the unreachable - no matter what you do, it is never enough.
- followers feel they can never be "good enough", there is no spiritual growth after many years.
-
-
-

http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum...cteristics.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/culteac.htm

b) Similarities between the church of Witness Lee and Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Islam, etc.

(Actually, it's more or less the same but maybe there are some good points to mention).

-
-
-

4 Peace, Love and Salvation in Christ.

Salvation in Christ, not the Church of Witness Lee. Leaving the Local Church, one should not be afraid that he is betraying God. He doesn't betray God. He comes back to Him.

Brothers, what can we mention?

-
-
-
-
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:47 PM   #38
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ICA,

Like Ohio, I am impressed by the serious review of a lot of sources. But I would be wary of certain kinds of discussions, such as . . . .
Quote:
Similarities between the church of Witness Lee and Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Islam, etc.
I am not saying that there are no comparisons. But too often, just like the discussion of "cults," just pointing to those groups creates presumptions of much more than is intended.

For example, many hear "cult" and assume Moonies, Jim Jones, David Koresh. All extremes and 2 of the 3 ended in a form of suicide. Not what we are thinking about or expecting concerning the LRC.

And Mormons don't really beleive that Jesus is their savior (at least not from what I can gather) but the LRC does.

It is dangerous, not because there are not comparisons, but because even those who think there is something wrong with them (the LRC) will quickly dismiss the discussion as going too far because you even mention those groups.

Sort of falls under a logical fallacy referred to as the "ad Hitlerum" [sp?] fallacy. Just comparing anything to Hitler, no matter how valid the specific comparison may be, automatically drags everything else about Hitler into the discussion and you are totally derailed.

In any case, a comparison to another error is not relevant to the discussion of the actual error. It is more important to know what the errors of the LRC are than to consider whether they might be like someone else's errors.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:03 PM   #39
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OBW,

Thank you. I agree with you. But I see it as a long-term process. First, we will be trying to look for errors in the Local Church doctrines. Occasionally... step by step and one by one. So that a leeist may realize that he is not following Jesus's teaching but Witness Lee's teaching. Then we will be looking for similarities between the LRC and other cults (no names here). Occasionally... step by step and one by one. Then we will be comparing similarities between the church of Witness Lee and Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Islam, etc. It's not a one day process. The whole thing may take up to one or even two years. (That's how I see it now).
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
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ABrotherinFaith, thank you for the piece of good advice!

Could you please share why it must be Psalms and James? If I am not mistaken, I heard WL was not in favor with them or something. Could you explain that to me, please?
There's a thread here about Psalms that'll show you why someone in the LC would benefit from reading it without footnotes, and James is in the same boat as far as they're concerned.

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

If your wife has been in the LC for 30+ years she's heard how many of the Psalms and much of James has been traduced. She's also probably just taken their word for it without having gone and read for herself. If you were to read it both books together without the footnotes, she'd be forced to consider the books, to let them speak for themselves so to speak. Without footnotes many in the LC are unable to tell you why a verse or pslam or author has been deemed not in line with God's economy. Reading these in context would give them a much broader picture than the picking and choosing, cutting and pasting and chopping that are the content of a lot of the notes and much of the morning revival material. It would make them consider God's word. That's the first step. Ultimately, your pitting whatever you see wrong in the LC doctrine or practice against God's word. Get her (and yourself) intimately familiar with it.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:39 PM   #41
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Hi ABrotherInTheFaith, I just saw this 3 minute video today which is spot on with what you just said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Is8QnxviOI

and everyone in the LC, including myself and those of us who left should see.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:42 PM   #42
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ABrotherinFaith, thank you so much! We will start reading them.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:52 PM   #43
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I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html
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Old 01-31-2014, 04:58 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearbear View Post
I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html
Thank you, brother Sam.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:41 AM   #45
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Quote:
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As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.
This is a profound statement.

As I was pointing out in a different context (another thread here) today, when someone says that you are learning something that cannot be seen by anyone else, or they have to rewrite the scripture to make their teachings work, then it is only those who do not read and try to critically understand what the scripture is actually saying that will continue to follow.

Says a lot for those who continue to follow Nee and Lee.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:49 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearbear View Post
I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html
This was quoted from your blog referenced above ...

Quote:
The conversation would be as such:
"Congratulations! You've been raptured/resurrected!"
"Ah wait... you've been a bad Christian... Sorry. Have fun in solitary confinement for 1000 years!"
"You look nervous. Relax, you'll have plenty of time to recover from 1000 years of isolation induced mental insanity in the eternal New Jerusalem!"
Is this any way to expound the scriptures? You have made light of the most serious moment we will ever face. Facetious comments like yours here do little to alter the truth.

2 Cor. 5.10 "For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be compensated for the things done in our body, according to what he has done, whether good or worthless."

Can you offer some proof that the "outer darkness" mentioned in Matt 25.30 is eternal, and that it is identical to the white throne judgment and the lake of fire mentioned in Revel. 20.11-15?
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:55 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith View Post
As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.
This comment goes far to support my paradigm of an early-Lee and a later-Lee. In the early days, many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God. They knew how to read the Bible for themselves.

Nearly all of these gifted brothers are now gone from the movement. Many of them stated plainly that Lee led the Recovery in a direction contrary to the scriptures, and contrary to the founding principles which first caught their attention.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:11 AM   #48
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BB,

Ohio is right. You have simply told a story and substituted its conclusions as that of scripture. That is something both Nee and Lee did.

There is no clear definition as to what it is that happens to those who have things that are "worthless." Whether it is 1,000 years, or just something directly related to the nature of the worthlessness is not stated. But it is not simply heaven or hell.

Ohio,

In your next post you once again reference the "early Lee" era with the statement "many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God." But not all of his statements were confirmed.

In any case, who were the serious students of the scripture that came this way? Were they mostly those who rose in the early small localities, some of which are still around today, and some of which left? Those that left are evidence that they eventually saw through something. It might have even been some of the stuff that they thought was so attractive in the early years. For those that stayed, well, you get the idea. Not so sure that their discernment of what is scripturally sound is very good.

And Lee's lynch-pin work was The Economy of God, which was spoken in August through September, 1964. Its very opening is an effort in logical fallacy and rhetorical tricks to make something not said in scripture into this overarching thing that was eventually the reason that so many verses were rewritten or otherwise could not mean what they clearly meant.

In other words, early Lee may not have been the forefront of what was going on, but the errors that would plague the group in years to come were already there. We just couldn't see them because we were told that red was grey and yellow white. In the 60s. (Of course, I wasn't there then. And I don't think you were either, if I recall correctly.)
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:24 AM   #49
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The ways of God are past finding out. A few days ago I thought that the Local Church, in spite of all the quirks and oddities, teaches the word of God, but now I see clearly that it's not a church of God but a cult of Witness Lee. They teach Witness Lee's teachings, not Jesus's teachings. How come I never thought of this? What a delusion. It's like you are dreaming, but you have no idea that it's a dream. It's full of shams, delusions, and glowing signs that it's a dream but you take them real. You can't realize that you are dreaming because you are in there, deep inside. Mr Lee was indeed the true enchanter, whose spell operates upon the heart, the mind and the soul, beyond imagination.

“Be hole, be dust, be dream, be wind,
Be night, be dark, be wish, be mind,
Now slip, now slide, now move unseen,
Above, beneath, betwixt, between.”

It's pity to see how Lee’s teaching poisons every follower. Poor girls and boys become “dead men walking”, but they don’t even realize that.

I mentioned "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" in a thread. One of the latest titles says, "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose." I never even thought over its meaning. It was the "high-peak truth," too deep and profound for my understanding. And now I see that "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose" does not mean anything. As a brother said, "it's just clanging cymbals". There is no substance in this mantra. Where do we meet this mumbo-jumbo in the Bible? It has nothing to do with the Word of God. It’s not Jesus’s teaching but Lee’s.

“Was blind but now I see...”
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:58 AM   #50
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Ohio,

In your next post you once again reference the "early Lee" era with the statement "many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God." But not all of his statements were confirmed.

In any case, who were the serious students of the scripture that came this way? Were they mostly those who rose in the early small localities, some of which are still around today, and some of which left? Those that left are evidence that they eventually saw through something. It might have even been some of the stuff that they thought was so attractive in the early years. For those that stayed, well, you get the idea. Not so sure that their discernment of what is scripturally sound is very good.
Years ago I heard the testimonies of Phil Comfort, Chuck Debelek, John Ingalls, Bill Freeman, and others who spoke of this.

My impression of those that left who "eventually saw through something," was mostly that the leadership was hypocritical, and did not practice their own teachings. For example, Nee's book The Normal Christian Churchlife had merit, yet no one ever practiced it. Calling on the name of the Lord was valuable to some, but quickly deteriorated into vanity.

Remember that in his earlier days in the US, Lee passed on many riches from others, while in his later days, he developed those exclusive teachings of his own and Nee and Darby.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:02 AM   #51
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Hey guys, I'll start a new thread on outer darkness and millennial exclusion. I don't want to pull another bearbear and blow up this thread

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ed=1#post30783
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Old 01-31-2014, 11:10 PM   #52
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This morning I tried to talk to my wife. I told her about Philip Lee, the clanging cymbals of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival", and the signs of denominational churches in the LC. She became defensive, ignored every argument, and even called me Satan. There was some kind of tension after our conversation. But thank God, it's ok now. BTW, when I told her that God had talked to me and opened my eyes, she said I sounded schizophrenic. The funny part is that in the LRC they always say, "Ask the Lord", "God talked to me", "I asked the Lord and He told me...", and she buys that 100%. But when I told her the same thing, she said we must beware of people who say that God talked to them. Looks like she believes God can talk to all brothers but her husband.

I expected more from our dialogue. However I believe it was not in vain. Tonight we will start reading Psalms.
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:42 AM   #53
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InChristAlone,

First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way.

I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago!

You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church.


http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:00 AM   #54
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Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly. UntoHim is right though, it may be best not to bring it up again until she is ready.

I had to slowly expose flaws in the local church system my wife herself was subconsciously aware of and slowly build that up to how it's damaged our family members. I also showed her verses in scripture which clearly state we're expected to have a heart for the poor and obvious things like that which Lee's ministry goes against.

After I felt she was ready, I had her read John So's testimony. She believed everything he said but still made excuses for what happened which was hard to believe for me. Don't underestimate what spending years in the LCs can do to build up mental walls in a person. Eventually, I had her read John Ingall's testimony and she was a little bit more open.

She ultimately chose to leave after I said I couldn't go on spiritually in the LC. Then we started going to different churches and she got to see for herself that there are other folks crazy or crazier for Jesus out there. Then she started realizing how much she was fooled into looking down on these Christians by the LC system. She also came to realize that the LCs are even more of a denomination than other churches, it's non-denominational in name only but in practice it's almost more hierarchical and centralized than even the Catholic church, not to bash Catholics because I've met some that love Jesus and know more bible than 99% of LCers.

An elder's wife from our locality severely reprimanded her for entertaining the thought of leaving. This of course backfired Hallelujah! The whole time after we left, everyone from the LC tried to get my wife on their side after they realized I was deadset on leaving. But we wouldn't budge because we weren't willing to let go of our newfound freedom, however bad the consequences. I felt we were like the Israelites who were leaving the system of slavery in Egypt, though we lost all our comforts (friendships, relationships etc.), we chose to cherish our freedom more than the things we left behind (unlike most of the Israelites).

I'm thankful for the love and help the saints from the LC showed us during our time there and I wish I could find more ways to appreciate them. I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system. I wish it could be the other way around sometimes where we are the ones bringing them out of the system and not them trying to bring us back into it.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:38 AM   #55
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An elder's wife from our locality severely reprimanded her for entertaining the thought of leaving. This of course backfired Hallelujah! The whole time after we left, everyone from the LC tried to get my wife on their side after they realized I was deadset on leaving. But we wouldn't budge because we weren't willing to let go of our newfound freedom, however bad the consequences. I felt we were like the Israelites who were leaving the system of slavery in Egypt, though we lost all our comforts (friendships, relationships etc.), we chose to cherish our freedom more than the things we left behind (unlike most of the Israelites).

I'm thankful for the love and help the saints from the LC showed us during our time there and I wish I could find more ways to appreciate them. I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system. I wish it could be the other way around sometimes where we are the ones bringing them out of the system and not them trying to bring us back into it.
Bearbear, that happened to my wife too! I guess they thought she was a "pushover."

Another eye-opener was how they treat you once you leave. One elder's wife never would greet me when I would occasionally visit to break bread and see some old friends. Then one day I came with our former moderator and his wife. Everyone loved me, and she was all friendly too. They thought I was bringing "new ones."
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
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InChristAlone,

First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way.

I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago!

You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church.


http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx
UntoHim, thank you for your kind words of encouragement. Special thanks for the link. I know this wonderful hymn. BTW, you were right. When I was choosing my moniker, I was inspired by a Christian song. It has the same title, In Christ Alone, but different tune and lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtCghNUyBGc

"...My source of strength
My source of hope
Is Christ alone."

And here is Anthony Burger's brilliant piano version of this song:

http://www.amazon.com/In-Christ-Alone/dp/B001TOARPO

I think I share your personal experience now, too. It was not profitable to get into the subject of WN, Phillip Lee and Co. with my wife. Yesterday night I quarreled with her again. Usually, she is a lovely girl, but when I touched her comfort zone, she got irritated. So I ended up reading Psalms alone. From now on I've got to be more careful. I'll still do my part, but I will leave the main work to the Lord. We are going to read Psalms, Proverbs, and the Epistle of James every day.
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Old 02-02-2014, 05:57 AM   #57
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bearbear, what a wonderful and inspiring testimony!

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Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly.
I'd not say "brave"; it was rather reckless.

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I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system.
It does feel like that!

Unfortunately, my wife doesn't see any flaws in the system. She thinks she is in a Christian church. And not only a church but the Church, the only one genuine Christian church. She doesn't notice the usurpation.

Once we listened to one of RK’s messages. It looked great for everyone in the hall. Bro Ron talked about the LC and spirituality. He said that spiritual individuals are dangerous for the church. “We must build the Body first, and then the Lord will dismiss the limits. God doesn't want spiritual giants. God wants the Body, for saints to have oneness with God and each other.” Sounds good, right? I don’t need to be spiritual to take care of my spiritual needs. I need to take care of the Body fist. What’s wrong with this idea? Well, a plastic apple and a natural apple may look the same. And you never know which one is real until you bite.

I don’t find anything wrong with personal spirituality. That's true -- there are lots of traps on the way to God. But ego, pride, and selfishness have nothing to do with true spirituality. There are lots of “spiritual giants” in other churches. For example, in the Orthodox Church there are lots of saints, monks, and other spiritual individuals. It benefits the church AND ordinary believers. The more spiritual individuals, the stronger the church.

In my opinion, the more you grow spiritually, the closer you get to God. How are WL’s followers going to have oneness and build the Body when they do not have spirit of God? You must be a spiritual person, who gained God’s love and grace to be qualified to have oneness and be in the Body with other spiritual brothers and sisters. But in the LC they believe that spirituality is a Body matter. You don’t need to be spiritual. Just be in the Body. As Tostoy say, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."

It’s some kind of manipulation, a typical thing for cults. Just be in the gang, “Big Brother” will take care of you. Be loyal, follow the crowd, and don't stick your neck out! Big Brother will do your job. Look are WL, RK, EM and Co. – none of them look spiritual. But they have an “excuse”. They have a bigger job. They are building the Body.

I can be mistaken, but my answer is “Be closer to God first, have personal relationships with Him, and then you will have oneness with Him and His Body”. In other words, you must take effort, put your seeds in the soil, grow the tree, and then reap the fruits, not the other way around.

On the other hand, being in the Body may also transform you, make you more spiritual, and bring you closer to God, but it must be the Body of Christ, His Body and His Church, not the quasi-church of Witness Lee.

I feel sad when I see so many wonderful brothers and sisters who have been entrapped, poisoned, and enslaved by the system. They are longing for Christ. They think the are building His Body. But they are just pawns in the big game. Deceived and manipulated, they stopped their spiritual growth. They are not getting closer to God, but are serving the system.

PS I’m not a big fan of Tolstoy’s books and teachings, but I want to share some of his quotes.

"Where Love Is, God Is"

"Don't seek God in temples. He is close to you. He is within you. Only you should surrender to Him and you will rise above happiness and unhappiness."

“An arrogant person considers himself perfect. This is the chief harm of arrogance. It interferes with a person’s main task in life—becoming a better person.”

“He who exalts himself shall be humbled; and he who humbles himself shall be exalted.” (Matthew 23:12) The person who exalts himself ... will be humbled, because a person who considers himself to be good, intelligent, and kind will not even try to become better, smarter, kinder. The humble person will be exalted, because he considers himself bad and will try to become better, kinder, and more reasonable.

“Genuine religion is not about speculating about God or the soul or about what happened in the past or will happen in the future; it cares only about one thing—finding out exactly what should or should not be done in this lifetime.”
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:28 AM   #58
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Unfortunately, my wife doesn't see any flaws in the system. She thinks she is in a Christian church. And not only a church but the Church, the only one genuine Christian church. She doesn't notice the usurpation.

Once we listened to one of RK’s messages. It looked great for everyone in the hall. Bro Ron talked about the LC and spirituality. He said that spiritual individuals are dangerous for the church. “We must build the Body first, and then the Lord will dismiss the limits. God doesn't want spiritual giants. God wants the Body, for saints to have oneness with God and each other.” Sounds good, right? I don’t need to be spiritual to take care of my spiritual needs. I need to take care of the Body fist. What’s wrong with this idea? Well, a plastic apple and a natural apple may look the same. And you never know which one is real until you bite.

In my opinion, the more you grow spiritually, the closer you get to God. How are WL’s followers going to have oneness and build the Body when they do not have spirit of God? You must be a spiritual person, who gained God’s love and grace to be qualified to have oneness and be in the Body with other spiritual brothers and sisters. But in the LC they believe that spirituality is a Body matter. You don’t need to be spiritual. Just be in the Body. As Tostoy say, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."
There are other groups that consider their fellowship to be "the Church". The closed Brethren and Iglesia Ni Cristo just to name a few.
I'll give Ron Kangas this, he is a good speaker. When I listened to a message Ron gave in the Northwest a few years ago on Mark 11:25 (Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.) I wondered if he practices what he's speaking, Ron must have forgiven John Ingalls. As Ron had attributed some responsibility to late 80's turmoil to John Ingalls.

You will need to understand when I hear LSM speak on The Body, it's from the context LSM practices are sectarian as they divide the Body. View among many local churches is those in fellowship with LSM constitute the Body. LSM/LC have made their receiving narrower than God's receiving.

Generally if much of the ministry LSM publishes was actually practiced, some of us might not be on this forum. When one takes the approach to use the ministry through God's Word to show we are not practicing the ministry, you might get accused of using the minstry to attack the ministry.

As for blending brothers, many have been part of the problem when they could be part of the solution.
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Old 02-04-2014, 01:11 AM   #59
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Brother Terry, I agree with you. RK is a wonderful speaker. Besides, he looks like a nice old man, a perfect fruit of the "Witness Lee's tree". But I'm afraid there are a few words about both of them in the Bible.

And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.
Luke 6:39-40

Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15:14

My wife and I started to read Psalms every morning before reading WL’s “Morning Revival”. And before we go the bed, we read the Epistle of James. I feel the difference between the word of God and the word of man. “Morning Revival” bears no comparison. It's too dry, shallow, and powerless.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:44 AM   #60
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Brother Terry, I agree with you. RK is a wonderful speaker.
I remember back when Ron gave testimonies. Seemed he could always read the moment of learning, and could speak to it in a penetrating way. He tried to teach me that gift, but I could never do it even close to his way. But I didn't have Princeton Theological Seminary behind me like him.

So I've listen to some of his sermons on the web. They're a wonderful sleep aid. He now seems to me to just drone on and on. Seems to me his speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:03 AM   #61
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Seems to me RK's speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.
No, he's his own man. He loves those Deeetroit Tigers!
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:48 PM   #62
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My wife and I started to read Psalms every morning before reading WL’s “Morning Revival”. And before we go the bed, we read the Epistle of James. I feel the difference between the word of God and the word of man. “Morning Revival” bears no comparison. It's too dry, shallow, and powerless.
Excellent you are reading the Book of James. It served as a deliverance of sorts for me. Releasing me from many of the LC practices that had been ingrained in me since youth. I think in part that's why Psalms and James is not thought highly of in LSM circles. I would even include Proverbs and Malachi too.
These books in scripture expose the systemic practices LSM/LC rely on.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:14 AM   #63
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Today I tried to talk to my wife about what makes her think that the LC is the only genuine church, while there is a bunch of other organizations that have the same claims. She said, “That’s true. I just know that the LC is the only genuine church”. When I asked her for any proofs, she wanted to give me some WL’s books. When I asked for some proofs in the Bible, not one man’s interpretation of the Scriptures, she said, “I’d listen to you if you knew Hebrew and Greek and studied the Bible, but since you are not an expert, it doesn't make sense to continue our discussion.”
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:34 AM   #64
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Excellent you are reading the Book of James. It served as a deliverance of sorts for me. Releasing me from many of the LC practices that had been ingrained in me since youth. I think in part that's why Psalms and James is not thought highly of in LSM circles. I would even include Proverbs and Malachi too.
These books in scripture expose the systemic practices LSM/LC rely on.
Thank you, brother Terry. And thanks to all brothers who recommended me to read the Book of James, Psalms, and Proverbs. I'd never have started doing it on my own.
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:02 AM   #65
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I remember back when Ron gave testimonies. Seemed he could always read the moment of learning, and could speak to it in a penetrating way. He tried to teach me that gift, but I could never do it even close to his way. But I didn't have Princeton Theological Seminary behind me like him.

So I've listen to some of his sermons on the web. They're a wonderful sleep aid. He now seems to me to just drone on and on. Seems to me his speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.
I think he has some kind of mojo, but only if he is interested in the topic.

I don't quite understand him. He reminds me of WL, not only because I find his speeches spiritless, but also because I'm not sure that deep down in his heart he believes what he preaches. He looks as if he wants to convince himself and "his" people of the truth of his words.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:00 AM   #66
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Today I tried to talk to my wife about what makes her think that the LC is the only genuine church, while there is a bunch of other organizations that have the same claims. She said, “That’s true. I just know that the LC is the only genuine church”. When I asked her for any proofs, she wanted to give me some WL’s books. When I asked for some proofs in the Bible, not one man’s interpretation of the Scriptures, she said, “I’d listen to you if you knew Hebrew and Greek and studied the Bible, but since you are not an expert, it doesn't make sense to continue our discussion.”
What about come Hebrew or Greek scholars or experts outside of the Recovery?
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:20 AM   #67
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Witness Lee rely on concordances and interlinears just like the rest of us Greek-less peons? Did he know Greek?

By your wife's argument, seminary is a valuable credential to have. If I were to do life all over again I'd probably gravitate towards seminary so I could learn biblical Greek and Hebrew.

However Greek and Hebrew are not necessary for knowing the truth. Jesus warns us against relying too heavily on fallible teachers by teaching us to only consider our Father in heaven as our Teacher (Matt 23:8). Paul even uses the term teachers sparingly but seemed to prefer terms like "guides" (1 Cor 4:15)

We can know the truth when we're born again because we have the Spirit of truth who guides us to all truth living in us. God is truth and when he lives in us and we live in him and on his words we'll know the truth.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

2 John 1:2
because the truth lives in us and will be with us forever

1 John 2:4
If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.

The test of if someone is living in the truth is based on whether they are obey the Lord with their lifestyle, because that's a sign the Holy Spirit is living in them.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations.

If someone claims to be a teacher of the truth of God but unrepentantly launders money, covers up and makes excuses for the sexual violations of his son on his flock and defraud saints, this person is probably not living in the truth and therefore not being guided by the Holy Spirit.
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:34 PM   #68
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I think he has some kind of mojo, but only if he is interested in the topic.

I don't quite understand him. He reminds me of WL, not only because I find his speeches spiritless, but also because I'm not sure that deep down in his heart he believes what he preaches. He looks as if he wants to convince himself and "his" people of the truth of his words.
Kangas was always an intellect. Trained at Princeton he was a man of the mind. I don't think he ever took "get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" as anything but a cliché.

As a result he could easily grasp sophisticated hermeneutics, such as Witness Lee's "God's Economy" and promulgate it/them.

And that's why he's nothing but a scribe ... of Witness Lee ... a Leebot ... pushing Lee's force ... and making Living Stream Ministry money.
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:42 PM   #69
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What about come Hebrew or Greek scholars or experts outside of the Recovery?
I am afraid that even if she heard about them, they were not qualified well enough to get the "the revelation".

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Kangas was always an intellect. Trained at Princeton he was a man of the mind. I don't think he ever took "get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" as anything but a cliché.

As a result he could easily grasp sophisticated hermeneutics, such as Witness Lee's "God's Economy" and promulgate it/them.
I think so. Otherwise, I don't understand what makes him keep on chewing those boring and lifeless doctrines.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Witness Lee rely on concordances and interlinears just like the rest of us Greek-less peons? Did he know Greek?
Somehow my wife thinks that he knew Hebrew and Greek. Or maybe she believes that brothers who translated the Bible (Recovery version) found proofs of WL's words in the Bible. I'll check it out.

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If someone claims to be a teacher of the truth of God but unrepentantly launders money, covers up and makes excuses for the sexual violations of his son on his flock and defraud saints, this person is probably not living in the truth and therefore not being guided by the Holy Spirit.
Brother Bearbear, you've nailed it. But unfortunately, most of WL's followers have no idea about those facts. My wife has never heard about DayStar, and she believes that the sexual violations are fictitious and fabricated.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:17 PM   #70
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Regarding Witness Lee being studied in Greek, here's the zinger you can give your wife:

W. Lee, Elders’ Training Book 4, p. 129. The quote, in context, reads: “In expounding any verse, we would go back directly to the Greek text. We did not study Greek, yet we had dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances to help us in our study.”

taken from:

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/Tru...iarism_LSM.pdf

original quote in Nigel's writings:
"W. Lee was a gifted minister, yet, by his own admission, he was not a trained theologian nor a scholar in biblical languages. “We did not study Greek,” W. Lee acknowledged, but relied instead on secondary sources; “we had dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances to help us,” he continued. No doubt “helpers” assisted W. Lee with the Recovery Version and other publications.

Here's a link on ministrybooks.org:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchM...?id=2D0AD71F2E

It's Chapter 11, Section 2 of Elders’ Training Book 4
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:24 PM   #71
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Regarding Witness Lee being studied in Greek, here's the zinger you can give your wife:

W. Lee, Elders’ Training Book 4, p. 129. The quote, in context, reads: “In expounding any verse, we would go back directly to the Greek text. We did not study Greek, yet we had dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances to help us in our study.”

taken from:

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/Tru...iarism_LSM.pdf

original quote in Nigel's writings:
"W. Lee was a gifted minister, yet, by his own admission, he was not a trained theologian nor a scholar in biblical languages. “We did not study Greek,” W. Lee acknowledged, but relied instead on secondary sources; “we had dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances to help us,” he continued. No doubt “helpers” assisted W. Lee with the Recovery Version and other publications.

Here's a link on ministrybooks.org:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchM...?id=2D0AD71F2E

It's Chapter 11, Section 2 of Elders’ Training Book 4
Bearbear Bearbear (as your new avatar makes me want to call you!), this is good, but be careful knocking Lee on the head too hard with that. The concordance/dictionary approach is actually a very good way to study the bible and get senses and inspirations behind meanings - I use biblecc.com, for example, where a Greek version is very easy to come by, together with Strongs concordance of meanings in all sorts of contexts, it can really shed new light on a verse. (Not to mention how beautiful some things like sound in the Greek, e.g. Lord's Prayer, there is a poetry and rhythm to it which doesn't jump out so much in the English.

That said, I think InChristAlone's comments about his wife believing Lee spoke Greek is something to do with a misdirection and sleight of hand by LC. They always said things like "Lee actually went back to the original Greek" as if he was the first person in 2,000 years to do so. And, for most people there, it sounded impressive. If you have no knowledge of bible history or whatever, then it sounds like "wow, Lee actually went back to the source while nobody else ever has". They dropped that in a lot, as does Lee in his teachings with things like "The word X, in Greek, actually means Y" - it's as though he deliberately took the uncommon definition from the concordance just to demonstrate a little other-wordly knowledge. It's a party trick the way he presents it most of the time - but as I said, there is value in taking this approach.
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:08 AM   #72
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Thank you, brother Bearbear. I’ve just asked my wife. She is really sure that WL was an expert in Greek and Hebrew.

james73, I agree with you that the concordance/dictionary approach is a good way to study the Bible or learn a new language but it can’t be the best way to understand neither the Bible nor the language. Some words and phrases, translated literally, will make no sense or have another meaning. Anyway, I agree with you about the party trick. In the LC they really think, "wow, Lee actually went back to the source while nobody else ever has".
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:45 AM   #73
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Thank you, brother Bearbear. I’ve just asked my wife. She is really sure that WL was an expert in Greek and Hebrew.
In the local church fishbowl Witness Lee is lifted up to the level of God's perfect man ... into a god ... that hears directly from God. So to them Lee knew Greek, Hebrew, and God's native tongue. Like Jesus Lee followed only the Father, so they think and act. Like Nee was in Shanghai before him, he is deified.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:26 AM   #74
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Kangas was always an intellect. Trained at Princeton he was a man of the mind. I don't think he ever took "get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" as anything but a cliché.

As a result he could easily grasp sophisticated hermeneutics, such as Witness Lee's "God's Economy" and promulgate it/them.

And that's why he's nothing but a scribe ... of Witness Lee ... a Leebot ... pushing Lee's force ... and making Living Stream Ministry money.
What bothers me about this is that if RK was such an intellectual, he should have been the first one to say "wait a minute, that's not what it says." But it would appear that he joined the rest of us and checked the most important part of his brain at the door. He refused to keep his "Berean" mind and instead turned into a rubber stamp. With credentials like his, for him to agree with Lee was a "false positive" confirmation.
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:38 AM   #75
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My wife has never heard about DayStar, and she believes that the sexual violations are fictitious and fabricated.
Daystar occurred over 40 years ago. It was a business venture in United States with connections to Taiwan. Honestly one local church home meeting I had attended (2010/2011), several brothers older than I were having a hushed discussion about Daystar. I happened to be in earshot.

As for the sexual violations, I refer to the context of Isaiah 5:20. To say it was fabricated is to call two brothers liars who witnessed on separate occasions. If it was fabricated, why did it cause division in the Church in Anaheim. Read John Ingalls' Speaking the Truth In Love. He covers part of it.

What is a fabrication is to say certain brothers were ambitious and wanted to take over the recovery. Sure! That is a favorable explanation to give. However there at least two sides to every story.

One of them told me if he was ambitious, he would have never left. Another one said in regard to the fabricated claim of him wanting to take over the recovery, "who would want that responsibility?"
One phrase I heard about (some, but not all) elders, brothers and sisters who don't want to listen to the other side of the story,

Don't confuse me with facts. My mind is already made up.
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:22 AM   #76
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What bothers me about this is that if RK was such an intellectual, he should have been the first one to say "wait a minute, that's not what it says." But it would appear that he joined the rest of us and checked the most important part of his brain at the door. He refused to keep his "Berean" mind and instead turned into a rubber stamp. With credentials like his, for him to agree with Lee was a "false positive" confirmation.
In this regard Ron Kangas is just an employee of a publishing firm, rising to prominence, and hoping for a promotion.

Since Ron was indeed a "smart" employee, he knew it was best NOT to hear about the latest intern sleeping with his boss, Philip Lee.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:41 AM   #77
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What bothers me about this is that if RK was such an intellectual, he should have been the first one to say "wait a minute, that's not what it says." But it would appear that he joined the rest of us and checked the most important part of his brain at the door. He refused to keep his "Berean" mind and instead turned into a rubber stamp. With credentials like his, for him to agree with Lee was a "false positive" confirmation.
Yeah, something is out of whack with brother Ron Kangas. I can't explain it either. Maybe my impressions of him back in Detroit were illusions. But he had a Teddy Bear side, and I loved him. He called me from Anaheim when I was going thru my turmoils in the C. of Ft. Lauderdale. He pleaded with me to come to Anaheim, selling me on a new wonderful flow. He cried.

He's got a lovable side.

He was the most intellectual Christian I have ever personally known. And widely informed of world religions. But I guess even great minds can slip a cog. To me, now, what RK appears to have become is a mystery, wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma. But he had leadership written all over him, back in those days.

And look at him now. Y'all praise his sermons. I'm baffled. Maybe I can't put my finger on it (maybe his wife drove him crazy - I've seen her shame in meetings), but my dear brother Ron doesn't appear to be right in the head ; more than a screw loose, a part missing.

How could he not take a principled stand against Lee allowing his sinful sons to stain the testimony of Christ (and the ministry, BTW)? Maybe I was so enamored with his brain that I missed his character flaws ... or he hid them very well, with his good preacher persona.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:02 AM   #78
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Here's a testimony of how a seminary trained pastor prepares a sermon:
http://www.desiringgod.org/interview...e-your-sermons

Many of your local pastors with MDiv degrees are able to read the bible in their original languages. This is one gift they have to offer to the body of Christ. Before many prepare their sermons, they'll read the scripture in the original Greek or Hebrew in addition to praying for understanding and revelation.

Furthermore, if they are shepherding healthy congregations, they'll be humbly pointing their flock to Christ and not to themselves.

Witness Lee couldn't even read Greek and Hebrew yet many are duped into giving their life to him and his movement, trusting that he's understood and had perfect revelation of the scriptures.

Now there are plenty of pastors who are not good at the biblical languages and preach and write just fine or even better in some cases. This is because they have the Holy Spirit to anoint and teach them. But even on this account Witness Lee seems to be found wanting. According to 1 John 2:4, someone who is living in lawlessness cannot have the truth in them:

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:27 AM   #79
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Witness Lee couldn't even read Greek and Hebrew yet many are duped into giving their life to him and his movement, trusting that he's understood and had perfect revelation of the scriptures.
Witness Lee was as wrong with scripture as ->William Miller<- was in the 19th c., who caused ->The Great Disappointment<-, with his wrong Bible interpretation of the precise date of the Parousia. They both thought they had figured out the Bible like no one else. Both were wrong. And I was greatly disappointed.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:42 AM   #80
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Thank you, brothers, for your comments. I don’t have your knowledge, intelligence, and experience. So I’m very grateful to you for your comments and testimony. They have helped me not only to see the whole picture clearer but also to understand some details of the LC doctrines better. I used to think that the LRC is just another Christian church, and now I’m confident that it’s a mask, “sheep's clothing”, and an imitation of the Body of Christ. Quasi-church mimicry at its best.

I feel sorry for my wife and other sincere and well-hearted believers who are duped by WN, Witness Lee, and their teachings. Somehow these nice brothers and sisters become narrow-minded as if someone injected a mental virus into their minds. Now I am not even sure that it may take me one or two years to pull my wife out of this organization. I don’t have deadlines anymore. But I know that the truth, enduring faith, and God’s word make the best antidote. So I’ll keep doing my part. I’ll try to do what I can and let the Lord do what I can’t.

I don’t have much free time. So I am going to write less to the forum. But I’d like to share a few testimonies that I’ve read in other threads. They helped me realize some glowing flaws in WL’s teachings. Maybe one day there will be a guy in my shoes. So I hope the brothers’ words will help him in the same way as they were helpful to me. I’ll only share three brothers’ testimonies, but, of course, there were more testimonies, insights, and words of wisdom than that. Thank you all, my dear brothers and sisters.

The first quote is not about the LC. It’s about me. Though brother Aron said it to another brother on other occasions, but I think I can apply his words to my situation:

"I pray that the Lord would stay your hand from the work, and keep His upon it".

That’s very profound. I can think of many ways to deal with my wife and the LC, but only God knows which way is the best. So I’ll just submit myself to the Lord and let Him do the work – through me, through His word, and through other things which I can’t even think of.

I also liked brother Aron’s words about oneness and one accord:

"Believing into the name of Jesus brings us into an accord, the likes of which any of our own attempts to replicate cannot but pale in comparison".

In the LC, they always tell us about oneness and one accord with each other, but it’s all about striving for the unreachable. We must believe in Jesus Christ, accept Him as our Saviour, learn how to love God, learn how to love our neighbor as ourselves, and have oneness with the Lord first... the rest will come in due time. In other words, we must let Christ be our Shepherd, have oneness with Him, and He will bring us into one accord with our brothers and sisters, not the other way around.

Brother Ohio also had a very good point about WL’s doctrine about local churches:

“Though many teachings in TNCCL are good and scriptural, the Bible only describes "one city / one church," it never prescribes it. This is very important! Reading Revelation chaps. 2-3, it appears like each city was a church, but the Bible only records that it happened, and never that it must happen. In fact a careful examination of some verses (Acts 9.31; Romans 16.5; Col. 4.15) indicates that there probably was more than one church in some cities, and yet they were not considered divisions in the body.”

Brother Lisbon:

“In my 41 years in the lc, I don't think I ever heard the whole of 1 Tim 3 or 4. They always stopped at "which is God's economy." The last four words are critical and it is insane that they are so often omitted. I'm not at all saying this is typical of lcs but it is for Texas. I went to Chicago in around 74 when we marched around Moody with a "gospel march." That's my contact with GLA.

Paul said, "as I urged you when going in to Macedonia that you charge certain ones not to teach myths and endless genealogies that render confusion rather than God's economy which is in faith. To leave out that small phrase "which is in faith" is deceit. In a good sense, faith is a foundation of our belief and to obviously omit the word indicates deceit. The next verse is part of the same thing for it says that the end of the charge is wow!! love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and genuine faith. I don't think anyone has ever come to the proper translation of oikonomia but we have spent nearly half a century talking about. The items just following, ie love, good conscience, genuine faith, we probably don't know that much but there is some light. The speaking about economy just mainly lead to the formation of another of the thousands of Christian sects which certainly lcs have done.”


Brother Ohio’s comment to the post:

“Great post, Lisbon.

If I could add just a little ...

Cannot all of Witness Lee's brief summations of church history, with the lineage of Ministers Of The Age (MOTA's) from Martin Luther until now, be considered nothing more than "myths and endless genealogies."


I agree with brother Ohio. Witness Lee's church history is just a myth, a good marketing trick that he sold to his followers. They bought it the same way that Muslims buy Mohammed’s story about the last word of God.

Brother Aron’s comment:

“The problem is that Lee took a "slightly less than traditional expression" and made it a template to over-ride the plain words of scripture in front of us. If Jesus' teaching on Oikonomia, for example, which stressed individual responsibility (note that the unjust steward has "his" Oikonomia taken away in Luke 16:2) runs afoul of Lee's extended riff on Paul's "God's economy" then Jesus' teaching must fall by the wayside. To Lee, Jesus' parable simply didn't exist.

So we got "God's economy" rammed down our throats, literally (think of all the chanting of Lee's outlines and bullet points), while Jesus' teachings on personal stewardship, using the exact same Greek word, were ignored.

And to add insult to injury, if you didn't fanatically parrot this stuff, and actually tried to read the Bible for yourself, then you were castigated as being dangerously independent. You weren't "one" with the teaching of God's current apostle.”


Now I’ll just copy a few comments by brother Aron that he wrote in different threads:

“I tried to touch on this with Lee's "God's economy" metric, in which "oikonomia", briefly presented in Paul's epistles without much supporting commentary, gets voluminous treatment by Lee. You'd almost think the whole Bible was about nothing but dispensing.

Then, in the gospels, Jesus' teaching about "oikonomia" (there translated "stewardship") is effectively ignored. Why? Because it might distract us from Lee's "God's economy = dispensing" metric.

When I said that I felt cheated by sitting under Lee's teachings, it wasn't because they were "a subtle rewrite of scripture", or "an alternative explanation", even though that may be true. As OBW said, his pastor probably distorts scripture somewhat with his explanatory overlays, as do we all. Nobody really can be said to "cut straight the word" but God Himself, and Him whom God has sent to us, Jesus Christ. The rest of us are struggling toward the light. Only Jesus is the light. Big difference.

So I give Lee a pass there. My current claim of having been cheated stems from the fact that we were told this was the "all-inclusive ministry", which had gleaned the wheat and discarded the chaff of 2,000 years of careful Bible study. That's like saying a third grader's drawing is an accurate representation of a nuclear power plant. You really have to put so many qualifiers on "accurate" that you make it mean something different.”

”There is only one faithful witness. Jesus Christ. Not John [the Apostle], not Watchman Nee, not Witness Lee, not you or me. Our job is to witness(testify) concerning Jesus Christ. We testify concerning Jesus, not concerning the "true" church”...

“I got that line: "There is only one faithful witness" from Revelation chapter 1. Jesus is called the faithful witness. I realized that the rest of us are only partly faithful. Only Jesus is the Christ. The rest of us are failures, sinners. But when we believe into the faithful one, we begin our process of restoration. God begins to make us more and more like His firstborn Son. At that moment I stopped looking at men (Witness Lee, Ron Kangas, etc) and began looking at Jesus. He is right before us in the Bible.

And what bothered me was that Witness Lee taught in the Psalms that Jesus was not there! That it was only the Psalmist with his 'concepts'. But Peter in Acts chapter 2 clearly said that the Psalmist David was a prophet and was testifying of the one who was to come after him, Jesus the Nazarene. Witness Lee ignored that because he was focused on his idea of "God's economy". So Witness Lee missed the mark; he was not a good 'witness'.

Neither am I; neither are you. None of us are good witnesses. But we can point to Jesus, the one who is. Anyway, I stopped looking at men and began to look in the Bible and see Jesus. The Holy Spirit came and began to show me Jesus. "But we see Jesus"... Hebrews 2:9”

“If you get hung up on [WL’s] teachings about "false churches" you will forget all about Jesus Christ. That is what the local churches of Witness Lee have done. They only "care for the Body", and "for the ministry".

“Jesus taught us to have mercy on others, then the Father will have mercy on us. If you are surrounded by "false churches" go and show them mercy. It will be an opportunity for God to be merciful to you. If you judge them God will judge you...”

"God is to be praised, as always. I am certainly glad for my time in the local churches of Nee and Lee. I met many wonderful people and was helped a lot. But today, looking back, WN's model church is not something I can support. It doesn't stand up to scripture, nor to logic, nor to the test of history (i.e. its 'fruit'), nor will you find the leading of the Holy Spirit. In an 'authoritarian church' you will only find some human authority pretending to be God.”

“When you begin to "see" Jesus Christ in the text it literally transforms you. Now, as Paul wrote, the Word of Christ begins to dwell in you richly (Col 3:16). Witness Lee's footnotes said that the prayers of the Psalms were low, and Paul's prayers in Ephesians were high. But Paul in Ephesians (see ch. 5) pointed his readers back to the Psalms!

Did Jesus pray Paul's "high prayers" from the Epistle to the Ephesians or did Jesus pray the "low" prayers of Psalms? I believe that Paul saw Jesus inhabit the Word and express the Word and even become the Word made flesh tabernacling before us all, and in this Paul marveled greatly and praised God in his epistles.

So I guess my first point is that the Word points us to Jesus Christ, and second is that Jesus Christ told us the Spirit would lead us to all the reality of the Father's house. Not Watchman Nee, or Paul, or Witness Lee, but the Spirit of Jesus. So if you abide in the text a marvelous thing will happen. The Spirit will come. I cannot explain it: I just can tell you that the Spirit will come. And you will begin to see the Father's house emerge before you.

And you will not be "walking on your own" because the Spirit will be your constant guide. Will you obey? Will you abide? I cannot say, but the Spirit will nonetheless guide. Believe me, the Spirit is capable of overcoming our failures!

The third and final point is that all this is not for your amusement or "enjoyment", but so that God can use you. You will meet a non-believing person, looking for reality. You will meet a new believer needing help. You will meet an ancient and feeble believer, needing confirmation and support. You will meet someone who is lost and needs to hear the Name of Jesus. You will meet the hungry, the sick, the poor, the despised. And as you despair in your helplessness the Spirit will come in a rush of power to help you; the same power that raised Jesus from the dead will flow through you to the 'dead' ones around you. Then you will be serving God.

This, my friend, is the "new testament church life". It will fulfill and satisfy you beyond your dreams. It is right there in front of you. You already have it. If you keep looking for "the right church" you will be in for a long and disappointing search. One day, many years after leaving Lee's local church, I stopped seeking something new and better and different and began to seek God in the Word. At that point everything began to change.

Have I done a good job of it? Probably not. But I stopped looking for "Mr. Right". Mr Right is already here. His name is Jesus. He is clearly portrayed before us in the Word, not only in the NT but 'especially' in the OT. In fact, the entire NT could be seen as a brief outline telling you how to find the Christ in the OT!

His Spirit is here. The hungry poor ones are all around us. The fields are white for harvest. He told us, "Blessed is the one who is feeding others when the Master returns." (Matt 24:46, Luke 12:43).

The "proper church life" is right in front of us. It has been there all along. We just didn't know what we were looking for, and were easily misled.

And occasionally on Sunday morning I "go to church". But I don't go to despise, or judge, or be superior. I am just another loser on the "Jesus bus". So I go the same as everywhere else - I go to try and take care of 'my neighbor'; to try and feed and shepherd (see John chapter 21: Jesus speaking to Peter). There really is nothing else. Love God with all your heart and soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And some of your neighbors go to church”.

“The danger here is to oversimplify. First, look at chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation. This is one of the ‘proof texts’ that the local churches used when I was there. ‘To the church in Smyrna’, ‘to the church in Pergamos’ etc. Right? It doesn’t say to the “Baptist Church in Smyrna” or to “the Presbyterian Church in Laodicea”. Right?

But if you look at it more carefully it says “To the angel of the church in Ephesus”. Eventually, after many years, I realized that these people don’t want you to look at the Word of God. They want you to look at what they say about the Word of God, not the Word itself. They call it “the interpreted Word.” They don’t trust you to read it for yourself. You might see something they don't want you to see. So be careful with Watchman Nee. He didn’t give you the Word, but rather his interpretation, his reading of the Word. Big difference...”

”At its core our faith is simple: Repent, believe into Jesus Christ, love your neighbor. The rest is not so important. Watchman Nee's "Normal Church" became very abnormal. Believe me; I was there. No love. Just a zeal for the program. For "the church". No more love for your neighbor.”

“Let me simply ask two questions, which helped me: First, if the first-century church life was so “normal” then why was the aged apostle John writing to seven churches in Asia and telling five of them to “repent”? Secondly, if things were so bad (“Jezebel’s teaching” [2:20] was there, and the “throne of Satan” [2:13], and so forth) why didn’t John leave and start his own “pure” or “recovered church”? Why did John stay with the degraded saints?

Look at Revelation 1:5,6 “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a king-dom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.”

“Jesus freed “us” from our sins by his blood. We are all imperfect, and we are all freed by his blood. Eventually I stopped looking for “proper” people and realized that all these “improper” people were opportunities to minister.

Also, I realized that Watchman Nee didn’t really see that much. Yes, he realized that “the de-nominations were degraded”. But was his model better? Jesus taught that it is very easy to see the splinter in your neighbor’s eye and miss the beam in your own. It is very easy to see the splinter in “Christianity”. Yes, it is degraded. But anyone who thinks they have “laid hold” on this side of the Judgment Seat of Christ is, in my opinion, deluded. By the time Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were old enough to realize their shortcomings they were too busy trying to prop up their empires to do anything about it. Remember in the story of the sinful woman in John 8, it was the older ones who became ashamed first and left (v.9). When I was younger I would agree with all your statements concerning the “unbiblical
denominations” and would probably leave (I did, for many years); today I still agree but feel that God loves them as much as he loves you or me.

As I said, showing mercy to others is an opportunity for God to show mercy. And the Bible is much deeper than Watchman Nee realized. But he got caught up in “church building” and never got around to reading the whole thing. He just read the parts that he could use for “church build-ing.” So he ended up with a rather small Bible.

When you are in first grade, the third-graders seem very sophisticated and mature. And it is easy for the third-graders to judge the first graders. Nee was like a third-grader, judging the first-graders. But who wants to stay in third grade forever?”

"Where in the "new testament model of the local church" do you see, either prescribed, described, or even hinted at, the "one publication" (i.e. "nobody publishes but me") idea? Where it comes from, I argue, is that it is necessary to prop up "the ministry" of "the recovery" of the supposed "new testament model of the church". So by its fruits the thing is certainly known as something not of the new testament model.

The new testament model is to love your neighbor as yourself. Not "get married for Christ and the church". The new testament model is to follow the Spirit, not "whatever Brother X says is right". The new testament model is "all scripture is God-breathed and profitable", not "James and Peter and Job and Psalms (etc) are too natural, and written according to fallen man's concepts".

“The practices and teachings in the NT[ New Testament] are for us to love one another, and forgive one another. The rest is not so important. Don't get lost in the details.”


---

Thank you, brothers!
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:17 AM   #81
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Thank you, brothers, for your comments. I don’t have your knowledge, intelligence, and experience. So I’m very grateful to you for your comments and testimony. They have helped me not only to see the whole picture clearer but also to understand some details of the LC doctrines better. I used to think that the LRC is just another Christian church, and now I’m confident that it’s a mask, “sheep's clothing”, and an imitation of the Body of Christ. Quasi-church mimicry at its best.
Thank you for your kind reception of our words. We are, all of us, just lost sheep trying to get home. We hear the voice of the Shepherd and we try to respond. Then the Spirit (Paraclete) sees us struggling and comes alongside and helps us.

When we can simply acknowledge each other in Christ Jesus, and not judge one another's journey, it gives glory to our Father God. I love Paul's word: "Receive one another therefore, just as God has received you in Christ Jesus."

The church is not something we do. The church is us coming together to celebrate what God has done. Our only "work" is to: 1) repent and believe into God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and 2) receive one another. That's it.

Enjoy the journey.
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:37 PM   #82
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Thank you for your kind reception of our words. We are, all of us, just lost sheep trying to get home. We hear the voice of the Shepherd and we try to respond. Then the Spirit (Paraclete) sees us struggling and comes alongside and helps us.

When we can simply acknowledge each other in Christ Jesus, and not judge one another's journey, it gives glory to our Father God. I love Paul's word: "Receive one another therefore, just as God has received you in Christ Jesus."

The church is not something we do. The church is us coming together to celebrate what God has done. Our only "work" is to: 1) repent and believe into God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and 2) receive one another. That's it.

Enjoy the journey.
Thank you, brother Aron. May the Lord bless you and all the brothers.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:08 PM   #83
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I just came across a PDF for how to recognize cults and cult leaders. Many of them disturbingly match the LC system:

http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite....cteristics.pdf

This could be a helpful guide for friends and family who are considering whether or not they should leave the LCs for healthier churches.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:52 AM   #84
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I just came across a PDF for how to recognize cults and cult leaders. Many of them disturbingly match the LC system:

http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite....cteristics.pdf

This could be a helpful guide for friends and family who are considering whether or not they should leave the LCs for healthier churches.
Thanks BearBear-

One I found useful was: http://www.enlightened-spirituality....nal_cults.html

The link I posted there offers a list of 35 "warning signs". Using this I decided to score three Hong Kong churches, with 0-10 points for each warning sign, giving a maximum score of 350. It's subjective but I did TRY to be objective in allocating points I did this while still in the LC and deciding whether I should stay or go. I scored the other churches cos I was just curious if it was maybe a Christian thing, and also to get some kind of benchmark. You could call it a "cult score".

Church in Hong Kong (Living Stream Ministry): score 226, or 65%
International Christian Assembly (Assemblies of God): score 89, or 25%
St Johns Cathedral (Anglican): score 15, or 4%

Interesting to see if anyone else has the time and inclination to do likewise, see if there's any consistency in the results!

Cheers

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Old 02-08-2014, 03:59 AM   #85
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Brother BearBear and brother James, thank you for the interesting links!

Personally I believe the LC is not a Christian sect but a cult, since they not only tend to control their members but also faithfully follow WL's teachings, not Jesus Christ's teachings. It's an imitation of Christianity to destroy the truth and persuade men to follow religious ideas not of God.

Sect: a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.

Cult: a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.

Excessive brainwashing and control over members make the difference.

It's a waste of time and effort when my wife sacrifices her personal life for numerous meetings, conferences, and training that don't lead her anywhere.

PS "By sociological typology, cults are, like sects, new religious groups. But, unlike sects, they can form without breaking off from another religious group, though this is by no means always the case. The characteristic that most distinguishes cults from sects is that they are not advocating a return to pure religion but rather the embracement of something new or something that has been completely lost or forgotten (e.g., lost scriptures or new prophecy). Cults are also much more likely to be led by charismatic leaders than are other religious groups and the charismatic leaders tend to be the individuals who bring forth the new or lost component that is the focal element of the cult...

Cults, like sects, can develop into denominations. As cults grow, they bureaucratize and develop many of the characteristics of denominations. Some scholars are hesitant to grant cults denominational status because many cults maintain their more esoteric characteristics. But given their closer semblance to denominations than to the cult type, it is more accurate to describe them as denominations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolo...ious_movements
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:00 AM   #86
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Thanks BearBear-

One I found useful was: http://www.enlightened-spirituality....nal_cults.html

The link I posted there offers a list of 35 "warning signs". Using this I decided to score three Hong Kong churches, with 0-10 points for each warning sign, giving a maximum score of 350. It's subjective but I did TRY to be objective in allocating points I did this while still in the LC and deciding whether I should stay or go. I scored the other churches cos I was just curious if it was maybe a Christian thing, and also to get some kind of benchmark. You could call it a "cult score".

Church in Hong Kong (Living Stream Ministry): score 226, or 65%
International Christian Assembly (Assemblies of God): score 89, or 25%
St Johns Cathedral (Anglican): score 15, or 4%

Interesting to see if anyone else has the time and inclination to do likewise, see if there's any consistency in the results!

Cheers

James
According to that link, even the Republican Party is cultic!

Notoriously "left out," however, is the radical liberal Democratic Party.

I did find it comforting to learn that nearly every organization is cultic in some way, whether benign or malignant, functional or dysfunctional.
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Old 02-08-2014, 06:36 AM   #87
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I just thought that probably it’s not that important if the Local Church is a sect, a cult or even a church. The main point is that they are not what they pretend to be.
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:10 AM   #88
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I just thought that probably it’s not that important if the Local Church is a sect, a cult or even a church. The main point is that they are not what they pretend to be.
Yes indeed, and, of course, it was all those broken promises, false claims, and haughty pretensions which finally awakened me from my slumber to begin to examine who we really had become.
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Old 07-19-2014, 01:48 PM   #89
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Default College Conferences...what were your experiences?

So, I have recently become aware that there is a college conference or "training" in my college town. My friend used to hate them, but she's been brainwashed and soaked back up into this mess, so I'm sure she's been at the conference all day. I know she just always used to feel uncomfortable and never enjoyed the experience.

Can anyone tell me what it's like? Maybe a schedule, the atmosphere, how everyone is dressed, what people say?

I found some guidelines that said this:

"Seek first God’s kingdom and His righteousness.
Cultivate an atmosphere of prayer, fellowship, and seeking the Lord.
Study all materials as required and be prepared for testing.
Abide punctually by the schedule and diligently fulfill all assigned responsibilities.
Do not engage in social relationships with the opposite sex.
Dress code: No sleeveless shirts permitted; no shorts, jeans, T-shirts or flip-flops are to be worn in the meetings.
Sign out when leaving the training facilities for any length of time outside of scheduled activities.
Keep a good testimony by respecting all property including the grounds, equipment, and furnishings; maintain cleanliness and orderliness of living and meeting facilities at all times."

From this site: http://www.collegetraining.org/home/2014/

So... are there tests? What happens if you don't pass a test?

Anyways, my best friend is still in this mess. Every time I talk to her it's like talking to a new person. She's rude, mean, and heartless to me. Seems like she doesn't care about me anymore, nor does she want anything to do with me. This all started when she decided to dive head first back into this church. But she's had her moments where she'll apologize for not being herself and she's even told me "I don't belong there."

So, I need a lot of prayers on this one. I hate it for my best friend, and I hate to lose her but it feels like that's what's happening. I mean, she's losing herself.

Any advice on helping me help her? Also, any testimonies about the college trainings and the experience of those?

Thanks!
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Old 07-19-2014, 03:06 PM   #90
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Just to tag along on the end of this, while we are mentioning brainwashing. I have a friend of my friend who is in the church. My college best friend came about this new friend, and they hang out a lot.

Anyways, I told her that she's in a cult. I brought up how it was in that encyclopedia and all that. She said it was dispelled with that "we were wrong" article. And I said the author of that article has also been called corrupt.

So we dropped the subject for a second, and I mumbled "You're more gone than I thought."

And she says, "what?"

And I looked her in the eye and said, "They brainwash you there, do you know that? You're brainwashed."

Now here's the kicker, her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least. They should be allowed to think for themselves but I can't seem to get through to them. I'm going to try to ask them to read Psalms and James, like you guys have suggested.

I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.

InChristAlone, have you had any success with your wife? I've been going through the same encounter practically with my best friend.
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:18 AM   #91
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Default Re: College Conferences...what were your experiences?

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So, I have recently become aware that there is a college conference or "training" in my college town. My friend used to hate them, but she's been brainwashed and soaked back up into this mess, so I'm sure she's been at the conference all day. I know she just always used to feel uncomfortable and never enjoyed the experience.

Can anyone tell me what it's like? Maybe a schedule, the atmosphere, how everyone is dressed, what people say?

I found some guidelines that said this:

"Seek first God’s kingdom and His righteousness.
Cultivate an atmosphere of prayer, fellowship, and seeking the Lord.
Study all materials as required and be prepared for testing.
Abide punctually by the schedule and diligently fulfill all assigned responsibilities.
Do not engage in social relationships with the opposite sex.
Dress code: No sleeveless shirts permitted; no shorts, jeans, T-shirts or flip-flops are to be worn in the meetings.
Sign out when leaving the training facilities for any length of time outside of scheduled activities.
Keep a good testimony by respecting all property including the grounds, equipment, and furnishings; maintain cleanliness and orderliness of living and meeting facilities at all times."

From this site: http://www.collegetraining.org/home/2014/

So... are there tests? What happens if you don't pass a test?

Anyways, my best friend is still in this mess. Every time I talk to her it's like talking to a new person. She's rude, mean, and heartless to me. Seems like she doesn't care about me anymore, nor does she want anything to do with me. This all started when she decided to dive head first back into this church. But she's had her moments where she'll apologize for not being herself and she's even told me "I don't belong there."

So, I need a lot of prayers on this one. I hate it for my best friend, and I hate to lose her but it feels like that's what's happening. I mean, she's losing herself.

Any advice on helping me help her? Also, any testimonies about the college trainings and the experience of those?

Thanks!
I won't post much. The atmosphere depends on the person. The people are generally very open and friendly. I won't say that is true of everyone there are some that are a bit rude, they are a minority. There are rules but they seem harsher on paper then in reality. No one chides you for breaking any rule. The test is just verse memorization. You can't fail it. They don't even tell you the results. The dress is typical training regulation for the group. Long skirts for the girls and guys wears chinos/khakis/dress pants.

Now for a personal bit. There is a clear generational gap between the leaders and the trainees. As a lot of us have seen this forum and are very aware of the issues. Those that came before us view Lee very much as a father and this can be very dangerous. It can blind there decision making. None of us have ever met the guy he died in 1997. Though we benefit from his teaching and others. For those that regularly attend the conferences for yp. At least in the midwest their seems to be a clear vibe that "Were not perfect", we can't be perfect, were human. Now acknowledging the past and apologizing I don't see it happening. Though it seems if a situation happened like that here in the midwest they would be more forward in its dealings. If you have anymore specific question please act. I don't think I would be able to talk on general topics much.
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:02 AM   #92
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her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least.
Brainwashing is a sort of controversial term, like "cult". It's so emotionally freighted that it's hard to use in any objective way that all the participants in the discussion agree upon.

My own subjective reaction is this: brainwashing is good if it is done by God, but not good if done by other fallen humans. The Bible is God's speaking to us; it shows us the heavenly kingdom, and releases us from the bonds of earth. As Paul said, "the things that are seen are not real, but the invisible things are eternal." The Bible shows us the invisible things and it's good, by faith, to receive these words of life. This is good brainwashing; to have our soul (our mind) re-made in God's image.

The problem here is that Nee's and Lee's thinking is the vehicle for brainwashing, and that is no better than if you become my acolyte or I become yours. We then become followers of others, and not of God. Jesus told the Pharisees, "You lead your disciples into the ditch"; the blind lead the blind. So my question is: who is washing your brain - God or man?

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I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.
Look what Jesus did to break people's rotten thinking. He showed the contradictions inherent in their own belief systems. As soon as they realized the inherent irrationality of their mental constructions, they were freed from their power. See, for example:

"Whose son is the Christ?"

"David's son"

"Then how does David in spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'The LORD said to my Lord..."

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) bases its mental constructions on a set of mutually reinforcing principles. They propose only one church in each city, for example. But that bases itself on a set of reinforcing verses which create an image of scriptural rationality. The uses of ekklesia, or "church" that don't fit the LSM understanding, are ignored. Hundreds of years before Jesus told Peter, "on this rock I will build my church" the Greek Septuagint was already using the word; see for example Psalm 22:22. Obviously it had different meanings before the NT.

Another example is Acts 19:41. "And with these words he dismissed the assembly". How could the town clerk in Ephesus dismiss a church (ekklesia)? So we translate the Greek word to something different to maintain our mental coherence.

And in Romans 16, there are assemblies in Rome that meet in houses, and are also called 'ekklesia'. So Paul was aware of more than one 'church' in Rome and didn't have a problem with that. In fact, multiple assemblies per urban area demonstrate growth and multiplication, not division as LSM maintains! Even the LSM allows multiple assemblies in each urban area, as long as they play with words and call them 'meetings' or something like that; then they don't violate their own concepts.

Your job is to point out the contradictions inherent in LSM ideas. They don't see the contradictions because they are inside the small circle of thoughts and shared meanings. You're outside the circle, using a bigger Bible, a broader range of meanings, and can raise these points. Jesus said, "A house divided cannot stand"; the words of scripture can expose the division in LSM teachings and show that they are confused, contradictory, and of Babel.

Now, I could do the same with all of LSMs foundational principles, which they use to brainwash their clients. All of them are based on small sets of verses which deliberately ignore scriptures that don't fit the Nee and Lee 'vision'. In LSM terms, you have to "get the vision"; the vision of the Body, of the local church, of the ministry of the age, etc. You have to uncritically receive a set of propositions that are inherently contradictory with the entire Biblical corpus. As long as you attend the trainings regularly and get your brain washed with the narrow tenets of the group, which involves ignoring and explaining away non-LSM scriptures, you can maintain the fiction.

So my suggestion is that if you care about your friends, to educate yourself in a Bible beyond that used by LSM. Like you mentioned, they ignore stuff like Psalms & James, that doesn't fit their 'vision'. So if you have a bigger Bible than they do, then you can free them.

Remember how Jesus freed peoples' minds: "Have you not read the scriptures?" (Matt 19:4) Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of My Father's mouth". Not just some of the words, those that fit your mental constructions. Jesus said, "These things were written concerning Me". Not just the things that Lee liked, in the 'Christ in His human living' teachings. Jesus is bigger than Lee's teachings and you can present this to your friends. This will open the doors of perception. Then they can leave. As long as the LSM maintains a tight grip on their brain they can't leave.

It is the same kind of therapy used to free schizophrenics. Make them aware, make them confront the contradictions inherent in their own thinking, and then they will see the doorway out. Otherwise they are trapped, and round and round the circle they go.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:27 AM   #93
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Brainwashing is a sort of controversial term, like "cult". It's so emotionally freighted that it's hard to use in any objective way that all the participants in the discussion agree upon.

....

It is the same kind of therapy used to free schizophrenics. Make them aware, make them confront the contradictions inherent in their own thinking, and then they will see the doorway out. Otherwise they are trapped, and round and round the circle they go.
A linchpin in all this is that the LRC discredits the independent thought processes necessary to arrive at conclusions other than theirs. Not only do they inundate members with their teachings, they issue explicit warnings and impose controlling social structures which make it practically impossible to exist in their culture while holding to differing views. The member is trained that even entertaining the idea that the CHURCH is in error is a transgression.

It's not hard to consider possible alternatives to the LRC's beliefs and practices. What's hard is to have the courage to drop the LRC versions for the alternatives.

This is the "genius" of controlling groups. The very act of initially considering they might be in error is itself a sin. To question the group is to step out of the light. They shoot the horse before it has a chance to leave the gate.

It's an extremely effective, self-reinforcing means of control. We all fell prey to it.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:58 PM   #94
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A linchpin in all this is that the LRC discredits the independent thought processes necessary to arrive at conclusions other than theirs.
That's encapsulated in the euphemism, "get out of your mind and into your spirit." Which ends up really meaning: quit thinking and get with the program. It's a mind control method.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:31 PM   #95
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Just to tag along on the end of this, while we are mentioning brainwashing. I have a friend of my friend who is in the church. My college best friend came about this new friend, and they hang out a lot.

Anyways, I told her that she's in a cult. I brought up how it was in that encyclopedia and all that. She said it was dispelled with that "we were wrong" article. And I said the author of that article has also been called corrupt.

So we dropped the subject for a second, and I mumbled "You're more gone than I thought."

And she says, "what?"

And I looked her in the eye and said, "They brainwash you there, do you know that? You're brainwashed."

Now here's the kicker, her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least. They should be allowed to think for themselves but I can't seem to get through to them. I'm going to try to ask them to read Psalms and James, like you guys have suggested.

I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.

InChristAlone, have you had any success with your wife? I've been going through the same encounter practically with my best friend.
I have been to a college training. I have also been to a number of college conferences for that matter. I tended to be fine with college conferences, but I had a hard time at the college training. The environment seemed strict and tense.

When I look back at the time when I was in college and why I went to a college training, I think my main motive was that it made me feel "important" and I knew I would get props for going. I realize that some are pushed to go even though they don't want to. That wasn't the case with me. I felt like I had something to prove by going.

My experience of the college training was that I had to follow a strict schedule, sit through 3+ meetings a day and basically act like I was being "trained". I look back on it and realize it was all a big act I was putting on. I think all the rules and regulations really kept it from being a more positive experience for me.

I think that it goes without saying that the posted rules are strict and you wouldn't expect to see rules like that at a retreat for any other church. I don't necessarily have a problem with strict rules, but it would do one well to ask what is the motive and purpose is behind those rules? Who is making those rules and why are they necessary? Their superficial answer to that question is that the college students need to be "trained". I think that the whole issue of the whole trainer/trainee idea is just that they need people who are willing to do what they are told and accept LC doctrines without question.

Regarding "brainwashing", I never experience anything like it. I will say that sitting in meetings for 6 or more hours a day can be quite stressful and can have ill effects on people, I know it does for me. Looking back the result of a week of the college training, was that it created a bit of a superiority complex in me. By that I mean I felt I saw a "vision" unique to those who were there.
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:51 AM   #96
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Regarding "brainwashing", I never experience anything like it.
Reminds me of a line from the classic movie "The Sting". The old con artist, played by Paul Newman, tells his trainee, "You have to keep this con after you take his money. He can't know you took him."

The most effective brainwashing is where the mark doesn't realize that their brain has been taken over. It must be set up carefully to be effective. The Local Church version requires two things. First, get them to agree that there is a God in the universe and that Jesus is the way to God. Make them see that the Bible shows Jesus Christ the Savior of the world. So first you establish the authority of the scriptures.

Then, you are all set: all you have to do is select some parts of the Bible that will guide your "mark" to take the bait. Put your "mark" in a heavy, emotional scene where people are screaming these special words, shaking, men are crying, women are drooling and slumped over, and get the mark to wave their arms and shout the special words.

Once the mark has created an emotional response to your special words, you've got them. Now your words are inserted not only in their brain but in their "heart". They refuse to critically examine these words because of the special emotional relationship established. Their ability to learn, to grow, to change (i.e. be transformed) has been terminated.

Look at the disciples of Jesus. How many times in the gospels does it say that "they were astonished beyond measure." Once you take the Local Church way, the only way to get that "astonished beyond measure" experience is to go to some heavy, charged atmosphere where people are crying out the teachings of Lee. "I'm a God-man!!! I'm a God-man!!!" Etc. They call them, meetings, trainings, conferences, and so forth. But they are inculcation seminars. They are re-wiring your brain with the Lee program.

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Looking back the result of a week of the college training, was that it created a bit of a superiority complex in me. By that I mean I felt I saw a "vision" unique to those who were there.
That special feeling you got, was an indicator that you'd been had. But as long as you could point back to a few Bible verses, you never knew you'd been taken for a ride.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:17 AM   #97
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The most effective brainwashing is where the mark doesn't realize that their brain has been taken over. It must be set up carefully to be effective. The Local Church version requires two things. First, get them to agree that there is a God in the universe...Then... select some parts of the Bible that will guide your "mark" to take the bait. Put your "mark" in a heavy, emotional scene where people are screaming these special words, shaking, men are crying, women are drooling and slumped over, and get the mark to wave their arms and shout the special words.

Once the mark has created an emotional response to your special words, you've got them... That special feeling you got, was an indicator that you'd been had. But as long as you could point back to a few Bible verses, you never knew you'd been taken for a ride.
The way to see that this is all a con is where Lee says that only his chosen verses are "revelatory", and that others are "natural" and "fallen". So you think you are following the Bible, but really you're following those parts of the Bible which Lee has chosen as a vehicle for his con. Believe me, there is a big difference. But until you see the difference, you'll never know that you've been had.

I testify to its effectiveness; when I left the Local Churches, and went "back to Christianity", I spent several years trying to convince the poor, fallen, moo-cowing Christians in "the denominations" and "the free groups" of the superiority of the Lee vision. It took years to read the Bible without "Lee glasses" on. Every time I read the Bible I had Lee's commentary in my head, and when I read scriptures that Lee hadn't commented on, my mind simply went back to the "controlling verses" that I was familiar with. There was no way for me to think critically about what I was reading, and no way further into the divine revelation. I believed that Lee had presented us with the "high peak" and there was no way to go further.

So, given that it took me years to shake this stuff out of my brain, after leaving the Local Church program, think how hard it is for someone who's fully in the indoctrination program? Tuesday night prayer meeting, Thursday night home meeting, Friday night college meeting, Saturday morning "ministry" meeting, and of course Sunday is the Lord's Table meeting. And in all those meetings, and in private conversations, is the constant reinforcement of how superior this teaching is, how everyone else's is poor, dark, divided, fallen and so forth. And you constantly hear how dangerous it is to be "individualistic", and think for yourself. You gotta give them credit, they have a pretty effective system.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:38 AM   #98
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And in all those meetings, and in private conversations, is the constant reinforcement of how superior this teaching is, how everyone else's is poor, dark, divided, fallen and so forth. And you constantly hear how dangerous it is to be "individualistic", and think for yourself. You gotta give them credit, they have a pretty effective system.
Someone could make a movie: and one of the climactic scenes would have the Maximum Brother saying, "Who among you have I controlled? Tell me!! Who!?" And the crowd, replete with glassy stares, sing-songy tones, and hands thrusting forward, replies, "You controlled no one, Big Brother!"
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:32 PM   #99
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InChristAlone, have you had any success with your wife? I've been going through the same encounter practically with my best friend.
NeedofHelp, I am sorry for my late reply. I have been very busy these days.

Unfortunately, I have not had any visible success. The only big change is that she is not angry with me when I am trying to explain her that the LRC is a cult. (Well, maybe that was stupid of me but I had to tell her everything I think of the Local Church). One more change: we don't read Morning Revival in the morning anymore. But we read the Holy Bible. Besides, we also read some articles on prayer from books which were published by my church.

My wife still attends all the meetings and conferences. She thinks they draw her closer to God. She rejects any critical remarks. So it looks as if I am talking to a wall. I just hope the process of transformation has started. But it may take my wife a few years to see the truth. She needs God's grace to make it happen.

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Now here's the kicker, her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"
I believe God never uses brainwashing. He is not a manipulator. God is our healer. He heals and never manipulates. Someone said, "Devil knocks at man's mind. God knocks at man's heart." Well, maybe this statement is not 100% true, but it's false teachings and doctrines that Devil uses to deceive, manipulate, and brainwash people. God says, "I love you, my beloved child. Come to me." Satan says, "Do you want to know God? Follow me. I know the way". For God, the key is love. If you want to know God, human brains are useless. If we want to know Him, we must use our hearts. But Devil says, "Wait, my friend. Do you want to know God? I'll give you the knowledge". That's what happens in the LRC. The LRC members put the Holy Bible aside, close their hearts, and open their brains for "the high-peak truth". They think WL and blended brothers are leading them to the Kingdom of God, but in fact, they are going somewhere else. I can't say where they are going but I am 100% sure that the Lord's message and Witness Lee's message are not the same. Just open the Gospels at any page and do the same with Morning Revival or any other book of WL. The difference is significant. Unfortunately, the LRC members can't see it.

I don't give up. I am in my motherland now, alone, but when I come back to my wife, I believe I will give her all my support and even let her have the LRC meetings at our place. However, I will stop taking part in them. So no more critics for her and no more meetings for me. The latter is waste of time and I don't want to be a part of it. The LRC meetings, books, and seminars don't lead us anywhere. Communion with God is possible if a man develops a close relationship with the Lord, not when he reads someone's opinion about God. So I want to make a change and live a spiritual life that leads me to Christ. And if there is a change in my life, then there is a chance that my wife's life will be changed as well.

Trust in the Lord. My experience says me that all is for the best.

May the Lord bless and help you.
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Old 07-23-2014, 07:08 PM   #100
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One more change: we don't read Morning Revival in the morning anymore.
This past Sunday morning my family and I attended a LC service. Reading through the week of the morning revival they were covering, I was appalled there are those who actually believe what was printed. Compared to the broad spectrum of the Body of Christ, the assumption LSM printed came across as being sectarian.
Of course that's based on the belief the Body of Christ is all inclusive where you meet; in the community churches, home churches, or even the denominations.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:26 AM   #101
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Thanks, InChristAlone. I hope your wife pulls through.

I don't know what's going on with my friend - she hasn't talked to me for about two weeks now. I've given up, realizing I have no ability to pull her out, it's gotta be her and God. So I'm just trusting Him to do what He needs to do.

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

I'm just content with my happier memories of who my friend is, and I just try to not think about the mess she's become.

Thank you all for your help!
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:57 AM   #102
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Thanks, InChristAlone. I hope your wife pulls through.

I don't know what's going on with my friend - she hasn't talked to me for about two weeks now. I've given up, realizing I have no ability to pull her out, it's gotta be her and God. So I'm just trusting Him to do what He needs to do.

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

I'm just content with my happier memories of who my friend is, and I just try to not think about the mess she's become.

Thank you all for your help!
I can relate. As soon as I stopped meeting in the Friday night home meetings etc, the phone calls stop and the emails stop coming from brothers and sisters to my wife and I.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:19 PM   #103
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Thanks, InChristAlone. I hope your wife pulls through.

I don't know what's going on with my friend - she hasn't talked to me for about two weeks now. I've given up, realizing I have no ability to pull her out, it's gotta be her and God. So I'm just trusting Him to do what He needs to do.

However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.

I'm just content with my happier memories of who my friend is, and I just try to not think about the mess she's become.

Thank you all for your help!
NeedOfHelp, I am sorry if my experience made you come up with this decision. I don't know if it's right or not. I just share my experience. Man's transformation doesn't happen over night. So far, my efforts to pull my wife out don't seem to be effective. No matter what I say, no matter what I do, it's all useless. At least outwardly. My wife is living under delusion, she likes it and doesn't want to wake up. So, I believe it's only God's grace that can help her. But it's my responsibility to live the right spiritual life so that my wife see some light in the darkness of the LRC teachings.

We judge the tree by the fruit it bears. If your friend became mean and rude to you, you may have an idea of what kind of "church" she attends. Wish I knew how to get your friend back to you, but I don't have the solution. Just pray for her, be a true Christian and grow in your spiritual life, purifying yourself of all worldly and moral defects in order to be united with the love of Christ. "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect." So, live in Christ, becoming perfect in God, through love.

Who knows, maybe one day your friend gets back to you and asks for forgiveness. You will not need to be with her but you have to be ready to forgive her. She is not a bad person, but a victim of a false teaching. Treat her with love. Always.

If you want, you may write her a letter. Then - come what may. Trust the Lord. As I said earlier, my experience says to me that all is for the best. Life goes on. Bless your friend and her path, and ask the Lord to lead you through the situation towards the best for both of you.

May the Lord bless and help you.

With love in Christ,
ICA
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Old 07-24-2014, 03:37 PM   #104
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I don't give up. I am in my motherland now, alone, but when I come back to my wife, I believe I will give her all my support and even let her have the LRC meetings at our place. However, I will stop taking part in them.
ICA you are the head of the house. If the meetings are in your home, then you can share your portion of Christ from His word. You might be surrendering too much to let others run meetings in your own home.

Consider this when you pray. May the Lord bless you and your family.
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Old 07-24-2014, 03:39 PM   #105
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However, one thing I will note is how she is so much ruder to me, as well as her little friend in the church. They are very rude and mean to me, when they used to be so loving and kind. Maybe the church beat it out of them - I'll never know.
It is my personal impression that this rudeness comes out of spiritual pride and self-righteousness which LSM ministers to its adherents.
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:25 PM   #106
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ICA you are the head of the house. If the meetings are in your home, then you can share your portion of Christ from His word. You might be surrendering too much to let others run meetings in your own home.

Consider this when you pray. May the Lord bless you and your family.
I don't know. Everyone is different. But I think this could be good advice from bro Ohio.

If done right, you could steer the meeting away from Nee/Lee centrality. This might produce good fruit in your wife's thinking.

You seem bright enough, informed enough, and if spiritually guided, capable of slowly waking your wife up out of her delusion.

Just be loving ... find enjoyment in loving ... even if it hurts. And it will. If you care.

You could, just stop caring. Is that even an option?
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Old 07-24-2014, 06:37 PM   #107
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"You could, just stop caring. Is that even an option?"

It seems like an option, but it's not. You'll always care. I know I may be young and out of my league here, but I'll always care about my friend. It just turns into a matter of suppressing your care. Because where I'm at right now - where they are mean to me - I don't deserve that. But I'll always care.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:25 PM   #108
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"You could, just stop caring. Is that even an option?"

It seems like an option, but it's not. You'll always care. I know I may be young and out of my league here, but I'll always care about my friend. It just turns into a matter of suppressing your care. Because where I'm at right now - where they are mean to me - I don't deserve that. But I'll always care.
I thought so NoH ... and also think so for ICA ... but will hold that until he speaks.

Caring about each other is far better than caring about the ministry. But will earn you castigation eventually, and considered a Judas against total loyalty to the ministry.

No one should fall for that. Jesus made it clear, in the gospels, that love is the way ... and caring about "the least of these" is caring about Jesus.
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:59 PM   #109
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Thank you, brothers, for your support. You helped me to look at the situation from another point of view.

I must think it over. My original decision was to stop participating in all activities of the LRC. I love my wife, I do like the saints (the latter care about me more than I care about them and they do it sincerely). But I don't want to belong to an organization that deceives its members, preaching a false gospel. To me, attending their meetings is like giving them moral support. Of course, I didn't do it for the LRC or saints. I was giving moral support to my wife. She always dragged me to the meetings even if I told her about their uselessness. Maybe she was afraid to lose her face. Maybe she wanted to "save" me. Or maybe she didn't want me to lose my face in front of other saints. In case if some of them started thinking that there was something wrong with her husband.

I need to pray about the situation. On the one hand, I don't want to nod and say countless "amen" to their hogwash. On the other hand, I don't want to quarrel with saints, struggling to explain them that they follow a false teacher. However, I also don't want to quarrel with my wife. And I do want to give her support. But I'd not like to support her by my participation in something that I consider a wrong thing. Unfortunately, my wife thinks that it's the right thing. She even wants to take part in the summer/winter training in Anaheim. It's gonna make a hole in our budget. And I always stopped her from doing it but this time I feel like saying, "Go ahead." If she is still hungry, I want her to eat the word of Lee as much as she can digest. There is a danger that she will never be full. But there is also a chance that she will be fed up one day. It's hard to guess what may come. I just see that my tactics of telling the truth about the LRC didn't work out. So according to my logic, my next step should be cancelling my activities in the LRC. It's going to be painful for my wife. She may lose her respect for me. This can be tough for me since I love my wife and I don't want to lose her. Well, maybe I just need to go through it.

So far, it's a dilemma and I really have to pray for the solution.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:23 PM   #110
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I love my wife, I do like the saints (the latter care about me more than I care about them and they do it sincerely). But I don't want to belong to an organization that deceives its members, preaching a false gospel. To me, attending their meetings is like giving them moral support.
Well I certainly wouldn't want, in such a situation, to be an enabler.

My ex became a drug addict, and impossible to live with. Her heart preferred drugs, to me and our child.

From what you've said so far, you seem to be caught in a gripping, maybe impossible, matter of the heart. Your heart is to your wife. Her heart is to the local church. Your heart is not. There are no easy answers. You've got to be torn.

So maybe it's a good idea to encourage her deeper into the local church. Maybe if she dives in, and over time, doesn't see the promised results, she'll wake up ... and put her heart where it belongs, where likely the lord wants it, to her marriage and husband.

In short, the local church has usurped her heart. She's caught in a cult, or cuz cult is such a loaded term, at least a semi-cult. At any rate, in any case, it appears, her heart and mind aren't her own.

Lord, be into this situation, and with our brother ... and his wife.

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:05 PM   #111
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Well I certainly wouldn't want, in such a situation, to be an enabler.

My ex became a drug addict, and impossible to live with. Her heart preferred drugs, to me and our child.

From what you've said so far, you seem to be caught in a gripping, maybe impossible, matter of the heart. Your heart is to your wife. Her heart is to the local church. Your heart is not. There are no easy answers. You've got to be torn.

So maybe it's a good idea to encourage her deeper into the local church. Maybe if she dives in, and over time, doesn't see the promised results, she'll wake up ... and put her heart where it belongs, where likely the lord wants it, to her marriage and husband.

In short, the local church has usurped her heart. She's caught in a cult, or cuz cult is such a loaded term, at least a semi-cult. At any rate, in any case, it appears, her heart and mind aren't her own.

Lord, be into this situation, and with our brother ... and his wife.

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Thank you so much, Harold. That was really kind of you.

I feel sad about your wife. If I am not mistaken, your ex was Chinese by blood. My wife is also Chinese. I believe I idealize and adore Chinese girls, maybe because I love mine so much. I am a sentimental man, so I feel really sad when I hear bad news about Chinese women. It's like a spot or corruption that sticks to my ideal. I don't want this ever happen.

I have decided to leave the LRC and let my wife dive into it. Well, that's what I am saying now when I am in another corner of the world, thousands of miles away from my wife. And I have no idea what I will say when I see her. I am praying for her so that the Lord open her eyes before I come back. It would be a miracle if she and I could leave the LRC together. The chances are slim, but prayer is the only thing I can do now.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:27 AM   #112
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I talked to a priest, asking for his advice about the LC. He didn't recommend me to leave them abruptly: "You have to save your marriage. So, try to leave the Local Church slowly, attending it less and less." It was not the answer I expected to hear, so I need to think it over. Anyway, I'll have to talk to my wife and explain her the reasons why I want to leave the Local Church.
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Old 08-07-2014, 03:50 PM   #113
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InChristAlone,

If you find any success, please share which method worked out the best. I've still lost my friend to this madness.

What's worse is that she's just turned into this heartless, rude, mean person to me. I hate it for her, because we are about to embark on the time of our lives - the part that we're supposed to have fun and enjoy. And I just feel like she's thrown it all away and is feeling like that's the only answer.

Let me know, and I hope the best for you.
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Old 08-08-2014, 08:40 AM   #114
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InChristAlone,

If you find any success, please share which method worked out the best. I've still lost my friend to this madness.

What's worse is that she's just turned into this heartless, rude, mean person to me. I hate it for her, because we are about to embark on the time of our lives - the part that we're supposed to have fun and enjoy. And I just feel like she's thrown it all away and is feeling like that's the only answer.

Let me know, and I hope the best for you.
NeedOfHelp, that's sad to hear. Wish I could help you, but you see, I can't even help my wife. Anyway, if I have any positive results, I will let you know.

My experience helped me to realize one thing: if I want to change my wife, I have to change myself first. I.e. if I want my wife to stop living a Lee-centered life and start living a Christ-centered life, in other words, to come from Lee to Christ, then I have to come to Christ first. It means I have to love God and my neighbor, keep the commandments, and fight my passions, developing Christian virtues: faith, hope, knowledge, wisdom, honesty, humility (meekness, humbleness), love, gratitude (contentment), generosity (kindness), temperance (self-control, chastity), faithfulness, courage, patience (diligence), and obedience.

Right now my wife sees Christ in her church brothers and sisters more than she sees Him in me. So my task is not to stay a nominal Christian as I am now but develop Christian virtues and live a Chirst-centered life. I know I am weak and sinful but the Lord is strong and merciful. I hope one day Christ will join my wife and me together through Him so that we become not only one in flesh but also one in spirit.

Again - ask the Lord for help, guidance, and blessings, fight your passions, live a simple and pure life, do good, righteous things, don't judge people, pray more, read the Gospels and the Book of Psalms every day. Breathe the word of God in and out. Share it with others. Let the word of God become a part of your nature so that you know what to say about Christ and His message to your friend. Be humble. They say humility is the mother and the source of the virtues.

Acquire peace and love in your heart and always trust the Lord. God knows what is best for us His children. Trust His plan for you and your friend. Everything is for the best. If my wife were not a member of the LC and didn't live a Lee-centered life, I would not care much about God. So, no matter what happens, remember it's the best situation for you and your friend -- not to get rusty but to grow in spirit, following God's plan which is the best thing for your growth in Christ. "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11

May the Lord bless and help you.

PS About prayer and virtues:

"As it is impossible for a man without legs to walk, even if the rest of his body is healthy, so it is impossible to approach God, or reach God in prayer, without active virtue. Look in the apostolic teachings, and you will see that in them prayer does not stand alone, but together with a whole host of virtues." St. Theophan the Recluse. http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Theophan-Homily4.html
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:51 PM   #115
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You can download Jane Anderson's book in a .pdf format. Jane has written her story of being rescued by God from the Local Church of Witness Lee.

http://www.thethreadofgold.com/

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Old 08-26-2014, 06:34 AM   #116
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But are there any practical steps how to pull our dear friends and relatives out of the cult, soothe their pain, and then help them find peace, joy...
My own experience tells me that it is difficult to "pull" them out by "telling" them. It's a subjective experience. Stories varied. Some might involve Lord's callings. Mine was ugly and inhumane.

If they are happy there, let them be. Our Lord loves them too. It will cause unnecessary frictions among us when our love ones are pushed too hard.

Someone once told me: Going through poverty might be a good thing, so you will know going to the "full time training" is a stupid thing to do. How do you feed your family while going to the training? I was too comfortable (never lived in poverty) so that I had time and money to attend meetings after meetings and buying LSM books after books. When I stopped doing that, I saw the other side of the local church I was in. It's my sujective experience.
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:53 AM   #117
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You can download Jane Anderson's book in a .pdf format. Jane has written her story of being rescued by God from the Local Church of Witness Lee.

http://www.thethreadofgold.com/

Nell
Jane's book emerged as I left the LC's. It really enlightened me to understand the character of the then current president of LSM.

So many nagging questions I had lived with for years seemed to get answered while reading her book.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:49 PM   #118
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Jane's book emerged as I left the LC's. It really enlightened me to understand the character of the then current president of LSM.

So many nagging questions I had lived with for years seemed to get answered while reading her book.
Though it didn't become evident until decades later, it served as a case to show there was a subtle move in the 70's to alter the nature of the recovery from Christ as the basis for receiving (see Romans 15:7) to a man and a ministry as the basis for receiving.
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