Learning from Beyond the Fundamentals

[byHismercy]

https://youtu.be/5wOwMsfYkeA

Every time Kevin says Calvinists, substitute Local Churchers. Every time he says Bro. Melms, hear Bro Lee.

It is incredible to me, how related various ideologies and deceptions are.....they are identical, really. Same father of lies, same source.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

https://youtu.be/5wOwMsfYkeA

Every time Kevin says Calvinists, substitute Local Churchers. Every time he says Bro. Melms, hear Bro Lee.

It is incredible to me, how related various ideologies and deceptions are.....they are identical, really. Same father of lies, same source.

The Bible really is a balanced book. God intended that His children read it.

The difficulty with many teachers is that they cherry pick verses which suite their agenda. With enough picking and squeezing and shoehorning, one can make the Bible say anything you like.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible really is a balanced book. God intended that His children read it.

The difficulty with many teachers is that they cherry pick verses which suite their agenda. With enough picking and squeezing and shoehorning, one can make the Bible say anything you like.

Very True indeed.

But if we study and Be diligent to present ourselves approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth as 2 Timothy 2:15 exhorts us to do, we would all be better disciples of Christ I believe.

I am working on it but have not arrived yet.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

https://youtu.be/5wOwMsfYkeA

Every time Kevin says Calvinists, substitute Local Churchers. Every time he says Bro. Melms, hear Bro Lee.

It is incredible to me, how related various ideologies and deceptions are.....they are identical, really. Same father of lies, same source.

Thanks for sharing this BHM!


I am reminded that God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. And while Lee had some things right, he did not follow 2 Timothy 2:15 thus confusing the saints.

That said, I did not know anything about Calvinism back then.

I still don't know that much about it. However studying the dispensational teachings and the different covenants God has made with man has helped my walk with the Lord and has helped me understand God's Word better.

Clarence Larkin has some good books explaining 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.

Blessings!!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Thanks for sharing this BHM!


I am reminded that God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. And while Lee had some things right, he did not follow 2 Timothy 2:15 thus confusing the saints.

That said, I did not know anything about Calvinism back then.

I still don't know that much about it. However studying the dispensational teachings and the different covenants God has made with man has helped my walk with the Lord and has helped me understand God's Word better.

Clarence Larkin has some good books explaining 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.

Blessings!!

I would like to check out Larkin, Carol. I didn't know anything about Calvinism because I thought we had it all in the LC, so, for many years, I didn't look outside, or around, or anywhere! After coming out of the LC, my search for fellowship has been marked with finding Calvinism all around me....actually it seems like the Lord has been teaching me all about counterfeit gospels and spirits, doctrines and teachings.....what do they say, people who train to find counterfeit money study the real thing....then the counterfeit is easy to spot. It goes the flip side, too....that is, the counterfeits seem to share much in common, and I think that is because the source of all deception and lies is our enemy, Satan. I keep spotting patterns, or seeing something so familiar, you know?

I am so glad you are improving and posting here, sister! Much love to you!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible really is a balanced book. God intended that His children read it.

The difficulty with many teachers is that they cherry pick verses which suite their agenda. With enough picking and squeezing and shoehorning, one can make the Bible say anything you like.

I am guilty of cherry picking, too, Ohio. But the Lord is teaching me, and with His help, I would be a good student! For certain, He is the One who keeps me walking, running, and I know, following Him. This really is unique, what we are collectively going through. A real training ground for believers to live in trust, not fear. I feel for those who are facing this world without knowing the savior Christ. I would never make it without His peace!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I am guilty of cherry picking, too, Ohio. But the Lord is teaching me, and with His help, I would be a good student! For certain, He is the One who keeps me walking, running, and I know, following Him. This really is unique, what we are collectively going through. A real training ground for believers to live in trust, not fear. I feel for those who are facing this world without knowing the savior Christ. I would never make it without His peace!

I agree that this is a "real training ground" time for us to "live in trust, not fear," but that's what really concerns me -- what is coming next that we are being trained for.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I am guilty of cherry picking, too, Ohio. But the Lord is teaching me, and with His help, I would be a good student! For certain, He is the One who keeps me walking, running, and I know, following Him. This really is unique, what we are collectively going through. A real training ground for believers to live in trust, not fear. I feel for those who are facing this world without knowing the savior Christ. I would never make it without His peace!

Let me give a little example of this. It was back during the I Corinthians training, concerning "tongues." I would listen to Lee, railing on tongues in the meetings, and then go back and read the Word. Apostle Paul and Lee just did not match. Paul was balanced, Lee was not. Lee hated tongues, Paul did not.

When we left the LC, we found a Pentecostal community church. Some of those folks just loved to talk in tongues. They knew all the verses. But when I read those same verses in context, the Scripture did not match their enthusiasm. Just another disconnect.

Today the world-wide Evangelical Christian community is divided 50-50 over tongues. Split right down the middle. Half haters, half lovers. Both sides reading the same Bible, yet nearly none receives a balanced view. Actually I believe both sides have something to offer the other side, yet cannot, because of the great divide between them.

Such is the result of our cherry-picking the word of God.

[UntoHim]

Actually this guy reminds me more of Witness Lee and his followers than the "Calvanist Ideologues" he rails against in the video. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, and maybe I'm just a little mad at this guy for taking away 45 minutes of my frustrating, monotonous, selter-in-place life that I'll never get back.

This guy uses the pejorative epithet "ideologue" in the same way Witness Lee used the term "theologian". It seems to me that they both blab on and on about something they know very little about. They also both go on and on telling us about what they are against, without providing any sound, biblical reasons to believe anything they say. They try to make their case with circular reasoning, begging the question, and all sorts of other logical fallacies.

Yes, this guy is definitely beyond the fundamentals.
-

[byHismercy]

Said the Calvinist.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=byHismercy;92022]I would like to check out Larkin, Carol. .../QUOTE]

Hi Cara and all,
Clarence Larkin wrote : "While the bible was written for all classes of people and for our learning, [I]it is not addressed to all people in general.[/I. Part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part of it to the GENTILES and part of it to the CHURCH. The Jews, the gentiles and the church constitute the 'three classes' into which humanity is divided." He cites 1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

"It follows therefore that while the whole Bible was for the instruction of the church, it is not all written about the church.
"
Larkin continues to write: "The church is not mentioned in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is mostly taken up with the history of one nation, that of Israel."

To prove that the bible is not all about the church, including the New Testament, he gives an example about the book of James.

He writes "The epistle of James is not addressed to the church but rather to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad (James 1:1)."

He continues to write: "In the epistle to the Hebrews many Christians stumble at the words "fall away" (Hebrews 6:4-6) and "if we sin willfully" (Hebrews 10:26. But these words do not apply to Christians. They were spoken to the apostate Jewish professors of Christianity who had never been born again and who IF THEY did not accept Jesus as their Messiah were practically crucifying Him again, and were as bad as their brethren who did crucify Jesus".
*****

******Where I tend to differ a tad on his commentary on the apostate Jewish professors is I think HEBREWS was written to the saved Jewish people who were learning to walk and follow the Holy Spirit in their spirit as opposed to leaning on the Law of Moses as they did for soo many years.

For in Hebrews 9 (Paul) is reviewing the Old Covenant, the First Covenant with them. Then comes verse 14 and He tells them that the Blood of Christ, Who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT, ...purges their conscience (and ours) from dead works to serve the Living God. Something that the blood of bulls and goats never did, and never will.******


He died in 1924 before Israel was 'reborn' in 1948 so in his comments about Israel, he refers it to Palestine, not to confuse it with the 'Palestinian nation' of today.
There is much, much more in his book 'Rightly Dividing the Word' but I was not going to write the entire book here!

You can download many of his books for free. I have a couple of the hardback ones, Rightly Dividing the Word, The Spirit world, The book of Daniel and the book of Revelation.

Here's one I don't have anymore. "Dispensational Truth" I gave it away.. but will read it again on line:
BY CLARENCE LARKIN I hope the link below works.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...OGJlNjFmMTE3OQ

He may not have everything right but his books have helped me understand the bible a lot better.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me give a little example of this. It was back during the I Corinthians training, concerning "tongues." I would listen to Lee, railing on tongues in the meetings, and then go back and read the Word. Apostle Paul and Lee just did not match. Paul was balanced, Lee was not. Lee hated tongues, Paul did not.

I still don't know if tongues is real or not. I tried my best to be open to it as I was in a charasmatic, Word of Faith church for a while. I seemed to discern some tongue babbling was true but others were not. I never knew for sure if when I 'prayed' in tongues was real or not.

That said, there are some very good pastors who teach well that speak in tongues. As we have all said, 'Don't throw out the baby with the bath water'.

When we left the LC, we found a Pentecostal community church. Some of those folks just loved to talk in tongues. They knew all the verses. But when I read those same verses in context, the Scripture did not match their enthusiasm. Just another disconnect.

I also did not like and still don't when some say unless you speak in tongues you are not saved. I was told that once even though I told them the HOLY SPIRIT was living inside me... it was not good enough.

Today the world-wide Evangelical Christian community is divided 50-50 over tongues. Split right down the middle. Half haters, half lovers. Both sides reading the same Bible, yet nearly none receives a balanced view. Actually I believe both sides have something to offer the other side, yet cannot, because of the great divide between them.

Such is the result of our cherry-picking the word of God.

I wonder if our country is divided because the church is divided.

Thanks for sharing good stuff Ohio.
Carol

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I am guilty of cherry picking, too, Ohio. But the Lord is teaching me, and with His help, I would be a good student! For certain, He is the One who keeps me walking, running, and I know, following Him. This really is unique, what we are collectively going through. A real training ground for believers to live in trust, not fear. I feel for those who are facing this world without knowing the savior Christ. I would never make it without His peace!

Me either Cara!!
Do you know how many people have read Philippians 4 and know we should not be anxious and worry? But we still do! I don't worry as much anymore and when that spirit comes upon me, the Holy Spirit (Praise His Holy Name) reminds me to trust in God by Praising and thanking Him constantly, and lean not on my own understanding. He always comes through.

Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The Bible really is a balanced book. God intended that His children read it.

The difficulty with many teachers is that they cherry pick verses which suite their agenda. With enough picking and squeezing and shoehorning, one can make the Bible say anything you like.

YES Ohio! But that is what is great about learning how to rightly divide God's Word. Dispensational doctrine teaches that not everyone gets saved the same way. But Blood shedding seems to always have been involved.

For example Adam and Eve did not know Jesus.. Yet when they sinned, God most likely killed a Lamb and covered them with the skin (bloody) and thus they received salvation. The Israelites had to go through the priests and High Priests to rid of their sins.

And they had to offer a blood sacrifice. Today, we just trust in the Blood of the Precious Lamb of God.

Dispensational teaching may not have everything right but it sure makes it easier for me to read and understand the bible.

[byHismercy]

[QUOTE=countmeworthy;92039]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I would like to check out Larkin, Carol. .../QUOTE]

Hi Cara and all,
Clarence Larkin wrote : "While the bible was written for all classes of people and for our learning, [I]it is not addressed to all people in general.[/I. Part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part of it to the GENTILES and part of it to the CHURCH. The Jews, the gentiles and the church constitute the 'three classes' into which humanity is divided." He cites 1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

"It follows therefore that while the whole Bible was for the instruction of the church, it is not all written about the church.
"
Larkin continues to write: "The church is not mentioned in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is mostly taken up with the history of one nation, that of Israel."

To prove that the bible is not all about the church, including the New Testament, he gives an example about the book of James.

He writes "The epistle of James is not addressed to the church but rather to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad (James 1:1)."

He continues to write: "In the epistle to the Hebrews many Christians stumble at the words "fall away" (Hebrews 6:4-6) and "if we sin willfully" (Hebrews 10:26. But these words do not apply to Christians. They were spoken to the apostate Jewish professors of Christianity who had never been born again and who IF THEY did not accept Jesus as their Messiah were practically crucifying Him again, and were as bad as their brethren who did crucify Jesus".
*****

******Where I tend to differ a tad on his commentary on the apostate Jewish professors is I think HEBREWS was written to the saved Jewish people who were learning to walk and follow the Holy Spirit in their spirit as opposed to leaning on the Law of Moses as they did for soo many years.

For in Hebrews 9 (Paul) is reviewing the Old Covenant, the First Covenant with them. Then comes verse 14 and He tells them that the Blood of Christ, Who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT, ...purges their conscience (and ours) from dead works to serve the Living God. Something that the blood of bulls and goats never did, and never will.******


He died in 1924 before Israel was 'reborn' in 1948 so in his comments about Israel, he refers it to Palestine, not to confuse it with the 'Palestinian nation' of today.
There is much, much more in his book 'Rightly Dividing the Word' but I was not going to write the entire book here!

You can download many of his books for free. I have a couple of the hardback ones, Rightly Dividing the Word, The Spirit world, The book of Daniel and the book of Revelation.

Here's one I don't have anymore. "Dispensational Truth" I gave it away.. but will read it again on line:
BY CLARENCE LARKIN I hope the link below works.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...OGJlNjFmMTE3OQ

He may not have everything right but his books have helped me understand the bible a lot better.

Now he really has my interest, Carol. I can see the difference in the teaching based on who the Lord was speaking to, in the new testament. I understand the bible very differently based on who is being addressed. The other day I was talking to someone (not really, online) who knew they could not live a perfectly righteous life, without sin. Because of this they were not born again, or had not received Christ. They were referring to when the Lord was trying to show the self righteous pharisees that if they wanted to be righteous according to their law keeping, they must keep every law, perfectly, forever, without a stumble. This person had read and applied something to herself, erroneously, and had given up, preemptively. I tried my best to explain to her, Christ becomes our righteousness, when we put Him on, and it was a human impossibility to never sin.

This rightly dividing is utterly crucial!! And I never heard of until these past 2? years post- LC. Thanks for suggesting Larkin. I will try to find his online publications.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=byHismercy;92042]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Now he really has my interest, Carol. I can see the difference in the teaching based on who the Lord was speaking to, in the new testament. I understand the bible very differently based on who is being addressed. .....
This rightly dividing is utterly crucial!! And I never heard of until these past 2? years post- LC. Thanks for suggesting Larkin. I will try to find his online publications.

I had never heard of Calvinism until a couple of years ago (although I had heard of John Calvin).

I had never heard of the teaching of dispensation either but the dispensation of the fulness of times is mentioned in Ephesians 1:9-11 and in 3 other places. Truth be told I had no understanding of what that really means but I looked up the definition of dispensation in the biblical sense and this is what I found:
DISPENSATION:
A. The divine ordering of the affairs of the world.

B. An appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.

C. A divinely appointed order or age: the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

D. A dispensing with, doing away with, or doing without something.

Clarence Larkin is not the only teacher on explaining the Word of God from a dispensation view point. Gene Kim and Robert Breaker are a couple of online pastors who also teach the Bible from this perspective.

When I began to understand what rightly dividing the Word of Truth was, I remember re reading Hebrews 1. It suddenly dawned on me that in the OT God did not speak through His Son, (although Jesus was indeed present as was the Holy Spirit) but He spoke through the prophets and the fathers.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,

So in reading the gospels, I began to understand and pay attention to whom Jesus was speaking to. When the disciples were asking Jesus about His second coming in Matthew 24, He was describing what the JEWS were going to go through during the Tribulation, not the church for the church had not been born yet. Jesus had not shed His Blood yet. And the church is comprised mostly of Gentile believers who never followed the 'Law'.


So then what Larkin wrote makes perfect sense to me:
"While the bible was written for all classes of people and for our learning, it is not addressed to all people in general. . Part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part of it to the GENTILES and part of it to the CHURCH. The Jews, the gentiles and the church constitute the 'three classes' into which humanity is divided." He cites 1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

"It follows therefore that while the whole Bible was for the instruction of the church, it is not all written about the church.


I also like that they all also emphasize salvation through the Blood of Jesus. When we trust in the Blood of Christ and apply it daily over our lives, our mind, our heart, we put on the full armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-17) and truly then we experience the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding.

I never get tired of studying what all the Blood of Jesus does for us and through us. Not a day goes by I don't apply the Precious Blood over me and my loved ones.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Said the Calvinist.

....Said the Arminian/Dispensationalist

Actually, if you've even casually followed my postings over the past 15 years you would know that I don't get involved in Calvinist/Arminian Covenant/Dispensationist theology deputes. I see biblical truths in both theological views. I also see a lot of unnecessary arguments over secondary issues that do not touch upon the core elements of the Christian faith, from both sides. But since I am a student of biblical, historical and systematic theology, I endeavor to have a decent grasp of all sorts of theological views and understandings. Even if one has strong disagreements with others, it is still the Christian thing to do to represent the opposing views in an accurate and fair manner. And that's where I think this Beyond the Fundamentals fellow got himself sideways. And thus the comparison with Witness Lee...a man who couldn't have represented opposing views accurately or fairly even if his life depended upon it.
-
Peace Out.

[countmeworthy]

Hi UntoHim,

While I think thus far that the Dispensationalist teachings make the most sense to me, I believe there is truth in many different Christian theologies. and there are errors made as well as we are all searching, discerning and learning from the Holy Spirit's revelation of His Word.

One thing that the dispensationalist teachers online all make a big stink of is using the Authorized King James ONLY. They don't even believe the original manuscripts in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek are totally accurate.

This burns me up. So I am thankful to the Holy Spirit for being the TRUE Revelator of God's Word. But I am also thankful for the many anointed teachers who have enlightened me and that includes the true teachings of the Word I learned in my time with the LC.

God has given each of us a measure of Faith and we are not to think more highly of ourselves because of what we have learned.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:3