Disturbing scriptures, Your interperetation please.

[Seeker]

I do a fair bit of discussing of religion and some disturbing quotes are thrown at me.

This seems to say that the doctrine of Christ is imperfect.
Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

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The following seems to say that the prophets and their works are corrupt.

Isaiah 56:11) "They are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for the day of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORD occupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9) & (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)

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On the subject of God never changing.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

I can see a growing favor in man, but from God, no.


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These are particularly disturbing.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

I would like to answer back more intelligently on these and need ideas.
Thanks in advance for your interpretations.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Seeker

I do a fair bit of discussing of religion and some disturbing quotes are thrown at me.

This seems to say that the doctrine of Christ is imperfect.

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The context of Heb. 6:1-2 seems to be all of Heb. 5 which addresses the maturity of the believers, or rather the immaturity which may indicate the immaturity and/or imperfection of the believers rather than the doctrine of Christ.

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The following seems to say that the prophets and their works are corrupt.

Isaiah 56:11 "They are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for the day of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORD occupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9) & (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)

Who are the shepherds? Who are "they" who have no understanding? That is, who is Isaiah describing? Perhaps the outcasts of Israel? In context, starting with v. 8:

Isaiah 56:8-11
8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

On the subject of God never changing.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

I can see a growing favor in man, but from God, no.

In the context of Luke 2:52, Jesus is a 12 year old growing boy. (v. 42) I don't see God increasing in favor of his Son as God "changing". God is a proud Papa watching his Son grow up as he "increased" something that was already present in Jesus.

These are particularly disturbing.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

I would like to answer back more intelligently on these and need ideas.
Thanks in advance for your interpretations.

What is disturbing to you about these 3 verses?

Nell

[Seeker]

They are talking of the single or third eye which is a lot more Eastern religion than Christianity is.

My clergy sure never recommended meditation or of me emulating Jesus and judging all things for myself.

This other quote that goes with that theme seems almost directed at the clergy.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Lawyers of course means the scribes who wrote for the prophets or the prophets themselves.

They are shown as being a hindrance just as that Isaia quote does.

It makes me wonder whose side the bible is on in terms of a guide for us.

Originally Posted by Seeker

They are talking of the single or third eye which is a lot more Eastern religion than Christianity is.
My clergy sure never recommended meditation or of me emulating Jesus and judging all things for myself.
This other quote that goes with that theme seems almost directed at the clergy.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.Lawyers of course means the scribes who wrote for the prophets or the prophets themselves.
They are shown as being a hindrance just as that Isaia quote does.
It makes me wonder whose side the bible is on in terms of a guide for us.

I'd be glad to help you with these questions. The talk of the single eye is spiritual in nature. Jesus often talked about having eyes that see and ears that hear. Exhorting one to have a single eye is for believers. It is to keep your eye fixed on Jesus Christ himself. Not to let things of this world or even people to compete for the top place in your heart. It is only as one lives a cruciform life, or is at least on their way that they are going to be enjoying the inheritance that is found in Jesus Christ. I could dive into this with you much deeper if you would like.

"My clergy sure never recommended meditation or of me emulating Jesus and judging all things for myself." This makes me suspect that you are currently Catholic?. If so, your suspicions are correct. Jesus is talking about those who are void of understanding at seek to lure people into listening to them rather than seeking a personal relationship with God. God does/did send prophets to help guide his people. We are to seek help from others. That is what is going on here at this very site. What we aren't suppose to do is place in other men in the place of Jesus Christ himself. This has taken many forms with people today. One prime example is the Pope within the catholic church. Anybody that would discourage you from reading the Word of God for yourself, meditating on it, seeking understanding for yourself directly from God is somebody you need to flee from and have nothing to do with. It is highly questionable whether that person is saved. God wants personal relationships with all people. One of the reasons for this whole experience on earth is to sort out who really desires to know God and who doesn't. It sounds to me like God is opening your eyes to see. That he is drawing you to himself. This will expose errors that you have. Ways that you have been lead astray. BUT! If you go on with God. Find him for salvation if you haven't already. All of God's working in you that you go along with will lead unto a great inward Revelation of Jesus Christ himself. It will be unto your own good with in the Will of God.

One last thing. We don't really "emulate" Jesus. A Christian works to die to self so that they might live with Christ. That they would have Jesus Christ revealed in them. That they may live his life. This isn' the same as trying to emulate Jesus Christ from out of our own natural life. Unfortunately this teaching or at least neglect of proper teaching is all over. Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." I suspect that you will need some time to meditate on this to understand it.

Again if you desire any more fellowship on these matters I would be more than happy to oblige! I can provide you with some other sources that speak on these matters if you would like also.

Seeker I wanted to add a few more things for you. Satan has counterfeit(s) for everything that is of God. The third eye thing of eastern religion is a counterfeit what the Bible is talking about with having a single eye. A scribe/lawyer and a prophet are different. A Prophet speaks of things that he knows. Things that he experiences. Things that he understands. That word understands is a key word in the Bible. A scribe/lawyer is speaks of things that he has been told. Things that he has studied. Not things that he has understood in an experiential way. Here is the best solution for you to find the truth. Pray to God that you desire to know him. Ask him to reveal himself to you in his Word. Then read the Bible. If you truly desire to know God he will give you the understanding and faith to find and/or know God. 1 Timothy 2:4 "4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'd be glad to help you with these questions. The talk of the single eye is spiritual in nature. Jesus often talked about having eyes that see and ears that hear. Exhorting one to have a single eye is for believers. It is to keep your eye fixed on Jesus Christ himself. Not to let things of this world or even people to compete for the top place in your heart. It is only as one lives a cruciform life, or is at least on their way that they are going to be enjoying the inheritance that is found in Jesus Christ. I could dive into this with you much deeper if you would like.

"My clergy sure never recommended meditation or of me emulating Jesus and judging all things for myself." This makes me suspect that you are currently Catholic?. If so, your suspicions are correct. Jesus is talking about those who are void of understanding at seek to lure people into listening to them rather than seeking a personal relationship with God. God does/did send prophets to help guide his people. We are to seek help from others. That is what is going on here at this very site. What we aren't suppose to do is place in other men in the place of Jesus Christ himself. This has taken many forms with people today. One prime example is the Pope within the catholic church. Anybody that would discourage you from reading the Word of God for yourself, meditating on it, seeking understanding for yourself directly from God is somebody you need to flee from and have nothing to do with. It is highly questionable whether that person is saved. God wants personal relationships with all people. One of the reasons for this whole experience on earth is to sort out who really desires to know God and who doesn't. It sounds to me like God is opening your eyes to see. That he is drawing you to himself. This will expose errors that you have. Ways that you have been lead astray. BUT! If you go on with God. Find him for salvation if you haven't already. All of God's working in you that you go along with will lead unto a great inward Revelation of Jesus Christ himself. It will be unto your own good with in the Will of God.

One last thing. We don't really "emulate" Jesus. A Christian works to die to self so that they might live with Christ. That they would have Jesus Christ revealed in them. That they may live his life. This isn' the same as trying to emulate Jesus Christ from out of our own natural life. Unfortunately this teaching or at least neglect of proper teaching is all over. Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." I suspect that you will need some time to meditate on this to understand it.

Again if you desire any more fellowship on these matters I would be more than happy to oblige! I can provide you with some other sources that speak on these matters if you would like also.

I would not mind chatting on Jesus if you wish to take the usual position of saying that substitutionary atonement is somehow good.

I picked up this link that seems to make moral sense. Give me your thoughts on it from a moral/legal POV if you like and we can discuss this issue here, or start a new thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

This next is longer but has a Bishop talking a lot of sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg

Regards
DL

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Seeker I wanted to add a few more things for you. Satan has counterfeit(s) for everything that is of God. The third eye thing of eastern religion is a counterfeit what the Bible is talking about with having a single eye. A scribe/lawyer and a prophet are different. A Prophet speaks of things that he knows. Things that he experiences. Things that he understands. That word understands is a key word in the Bible. A scribe/lawyer is speaks of things that he has been told. Things that he has studied. Not things that he has understood in an experiential way. Here is the best solution for you to find the truth. Pray to God that you desire to know him. Ask him to reveal himself to you in his Word. Then read the Bible. If you truly desire to know God he will give you the understanding and faith to find and/or know God. 1 Timothy 2:4 "4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

You quote a passage that shows how God is a Universalist God who would have all souls saved.

That is more of a Gnostic Christian view than the Christian view that has most of us end in hell while only a few take the narrow path to heaven.

Rather a strange Christian position where they have to see God as incompetent and a really poor creator.

Regards
DL