Living with an LC spouse...

[ZoeGrace]

Hello. I have a somewhat different tale of involvement with the LC. Quick background: raised catholic; became a born again Christian; married 13 years, both of us having been divorced; was in a denomination, coincidently where I met my husband; after two years of marriage, my husband decided to go back to where he spent the majority of his Christian life, the LC (he was in Anaheim with Witness Lee). At first, I attended meetings, but began to question what I was hearing and/or reading. Three major issues occurred...huge lawsuits for millions of dollars, quarantine and ex-communication, and then the one publication rule. I felt like I was going backwards. Not to mention all the “fallen” Christianity and other such comments directed at any other Christians not in the LC. I am not saying that those I have met in the LC are bad people...they are very sincere. I stopped attending meetings seven years ago. It really makes my heart hurt that the LC have such disdain for the other children of God.

In my estimation, and I am no expert theologian, the LC has been entirely hypocritical about Christianity and denominations while doing exactly the same things. My husband will not explain anything. He quotes the same verses over and over and repeats the LC teachings, not really answering. He hates to be questioned. He wants me to be as enthusiastic and involved as he is with the LC. He really is a good man, and I feel horrible and guilty! It is a very small group of families (six or seven) where we live and I am the only spouse who does not attend all the functions and socializing. The other wives have talked to me about not supporting my husband. I know they care for him as a brother. I have spoken to a couple of pastors, but they really do not understand as they believe the LC is no different than any other denomination and I should attend with my husband.

We have had some fairly "heated" discussions in the last few years. Some have been hurtful...as in, from him, "You are not even a Christian" to "You are in apostasy." Mine have been along the lines of...you are CRAZY, you are in a cult, and calling Witness Lee a pope...not my finer moments! (The pope comment was after he told me Witness Lee was the oracle of the age!)

Any words of wisdom? I don't want this to destroy our marriage, but it is very lonely outside of the LC when that is considered THE only social life! It is hard to have friends when they are looked upon as a recruit! And, if they are not interested, they are considered foolish and in “Babylon.”

I find your website very informative. Many of the things I question are being discussed. It's hard to be a fairly “new” Christian (30 years catholic) and try to muddle through all of this! Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

was in a denomination, coincidently where I met my husband; after two years of marriage, my husband decided to go back to where he spent the majority of his Christian life, the LC

Two questions come to mind: first why did your husband leave the LC and go meet in a denomination, and second why did he go back to the LC.

I would guess that he originally left because he was dissatisfied, and he went back because he was convinced that there was no place else to go. And I bet he's still the same inside: dissatisfied in the LC but convinced there is nothing else for him. He has a deep and powerful program in his mind, to think that everything else outside the LC is "death". So he can be dissatisfied in the LC and live with it, but when he was in the denomination became dissatisfied then suddenly the siren call of the LC began to sound within him. The "deep program" was activated.

It is a programming issue. The more you understand the thought processes of those around you, you will have sympathy and not just think "they are wrong", which may indeed be the case. Because we are all wrong. You are wrong, I am wrong, your husband is wrong, etc. But God is not wrong -- God is wise and soveriegn, and God put you there. My advice is to find God in your situation then God can easily move. Nothing stops God. If you can find patience and strength and abide in God's will, certainly He can take care of your husband's situation vis-a-vis the LC. God can do anything. If you can understand and sympathize with those around you, who are quite different from you and different from what you want to be, then God will have a way. Never forget how powerful God is! If you say, "God, You are all powerful. You are so powerful that I can rest here, peacefully, in this seemingly untenable situation." Then God will be happy. Your job is to just rest in the beloved. This is true faith.

I would say this to my husband: "Honey, sorry for my bad mood of late. I have been quarrelsome and judgmental. I want to be positive, and a good companion." Never mind that the LCs are quarrelsome and judgmental, and "negative" towards all others. Just take care of yourself. Just tell them, "Sorry to be negative". You don't have to agree. Just be peaceful, positive, empathetic, understanding, an cheerful. God can do this! Then you will see God move. If they are also negative and judgmental that is their problem not yours. God is soveriegn, and put you in this position, and now wants to know what you will do. If your answer is "I will do nothing" then God's answer will be "I will do everything." Finding God is the unique human experience. Find Him now. Your situation means nothing to God. Just find Him and He will re-arrange everything. Don't touch your situation. Let God touch it.

Let me put this another way: if you are dissatisfied, then God is also dissatisfied. God wants something. But are you willing to be patient? Are you willing to believe in God's soveriegnty in this situation? God is very patient with us! If we can in some small way respond with patience toward God then this is a great victory. Satan wants you to move, but God wants you to be restful. Remember what Jesus said on the cross: It is finished.

[awareness]

ZoeGrace I'm so sad for you. My heart, mind, and prayers go out to you. Sorry I don't have any answers. If you love each other you'll work it out. If not you're destined to be unhappy. Maybe a trial separation is in order.

[aron]

Jesus said, "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man (or woman), it flies about in waterless places seeking rest." It occurred to me that seeking rest is actually a universal phenomenon. We all seek rest. Whether we are obedient or disobedient, clean or unclean, holy or evil, we seek rest. The question is: are we going to enter into HIS rest or are we going to continue to try and find our own rest, apart from Him?

I daresay you can find rest in your situation. God is that good, and wise, and powerful. Don't be tricked into thinking that rest can only be found in a different situation. You will never find rest that way. You will run and run and run. Don't look at all the problems around you. Just repent, and turn, and obey in your present reality. God will flood your reality with Himself. He is that powerful.

Your spouse left the LCs, seeking rest, and couldn't find it, and now is back in, and I daresay he still can't find rest. But he consoles himself by saying that this is the best he can do, here on this earth.... he's conditioned to think that the LC is "God's best", even if a little voice is nagging him. So he just keeps repeating the LC mantra of the week (HWFMR etc) and hopes the little voice will go away.

If you can find rest, and peace, and joy, and love, and light in your situation that will be the strongest testimony not only to him and the families you touch, but to all creation. God put you there, simply to testify of the rest found in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Just some thoughts from a pilgrim along the way.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

At first, I attended meetings, but began to question what I was hearing and/or reading. Three major issues occurred...huge lawsuits for millions of dollars, quarantine and ex-communication, and then the one publication rule. I felt like I was going backwards. Not to mention all the “fallen” Christianity and other such comments directed at any other Christians not in the LC.

In my estimation, and I am no expert theologian, the LC has been entirely hypocritical about Christianity and denominations while doing exactly the same things.
I have spoken to a couple of pastors, but they really do not understand as they believe the LC is no different than any other denomination and I should attend with my husband.

Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

I have put into bold what my issues had been. It's one thing to legitimately quarantine someone based on scripture. It's when you begin quarantine based on being politically incorrect, that's what I have issue with.
Whether in Washington or visiting in California, I have been in meetings in each state where there are comments directed at Christians not meeting in the local churches. Basically the assumption if you're Christian not meeting in the local churches, you're meeting in division (denominations).

I would agree with the pastors. The local churches is no different than any other denomination. For example many LC's use LSM publications while Baptists use Lifeway publications.

It's one thing to know teachings LSM publishes about. If teachings were practiced, where would the issues lie? However the practices do not match the teachings. It's easy for CRI to publish "We were Wrong" when the sole focus was on the teachings, and not the practices. It's through these practices that has resulted in divisions, strife, and turmoils.

[bearbear]

Hi ZoeGrace,

It sounds like your husband has built up Witness Lee to be a false idol. Perhaps one solution is to break this idol through fasting and prayer and to ask God to create an opening in his heart to hear what you have to say. Along with this could be to expose the idol for what it is (Eph 5:11). This could require wisdom and may have to be done as gently as possible. Do as the Lord leads you, but in any case...

Here's a youtube video of a conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit you could show your husband.

Sal Benoit, an elder in the church in Boston, loaned $100k to fund DayStar, a company Witness Lee founded to produce and sell RVs. Because of Benoit's enormous investment, Witness Lee takes the liberty to describe a scheme that involved defrauding saints via a money laundering operation which involved juggling money between OCS, Living Stream Ministry (501c tax-exempt non-profit), DayStar and Phosphorus. When DayStar went bankrupt after the 1970s Iranian Oil Crisis, Witness Lee protected himself from losses, while forcing church members, many who took out huge loans or gave up their life savings, to shoulder the burden.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHJ...ature=youtu.be

Transcript:
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf

PDF of Money Laundering Scheme:
http://www.geocities.jp/lee_localchu...chInBoston.pdf

Revelation 2:2
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

Hello. I have a somewhat different tale of involvement with the LC. Quick background: raised catholic; became a born again Christian; married 13 years, both of us having been divorced; was in a denomination, coincidently where I met my husband; after two years of marriage, my husband decided to go back to where he spent the majority of his Christian life, the LC (he was in Anaheim with Witness Lee). At first, I attended meetings, but began to question what I was hearing and/or reading. Three major issues occurred...huge lawsuits for millions of dollars, quarantine and ex-communication, and then the one publication rule. I felt like I was going backwards. Not to mention all the “fallen” Christianity and other such comments directed at any other Christians not in the LC. I am not saying that those I have met in the LC are bad people...they are very sincere. I stopped attending meetings seven years ago. It really makes my heart hurt that the LC have such disdain for the other children of God.

In my estimation, and I am no expert theologian, the LC has been entirely hypocritical about Christianity and denominations while doing exactly the same things. My husband will not explain anything. He quotes the same verses over and over and repeats the LC teachings, not really answering. He hates to be questioned. He wants me to be as enthusiastic and involved as he is with the LC. He really is a good man, and I feel horrible and guilty! It is a very small group of families (six or seven) where we live and I am the only spouse who does not attend all the functions and socializing. The other wives have talked to me about not supporting my husband. I know they care for him as a brother. I have spoken to a couple of pastors, but they really do not understand as they believe the LC is no different than any other denomination and I should attend with my husband.

We have had some fairly "heated" discussions in the last few years. Some have been hurtful...as in, from him, "You are not even a Christian" to "You are in apostasy." Mine have been along the lines of...you are CRAZY, you are in a cult, and calling Witness Lee a pope...not my finer moments! (The pope comment was after he told me Witness Lee was the oracle of the age!)

Any words of wisdom? I don't want this to destroy our marriage, but it is very lonely outside of the LC when that is considered THE only social life! It is hard to have friends when they are looked upon as a recruit! And, if they are not interested, they are considered foolish and in “Babylon.”

I find your website very informative. Many of the things I question are being discussed. It's hard to be a fairly “new” Christian (30 years catholic) and try to muddle through all of this! Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

Do you have children? If not, consider yourself free to follow your heart. Stay married or leave it which ever you choose. Why would God want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

Do you have children? If not, consider yourself free to follow your heart. Stay married or leave it which ever you choose. Why would God want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable?

God's ministry includes healing and reconciliation. We were once God's enemy but he reconciled us to himself through the death of Jesus (Rom 5:10). The Lord is our good shepherd who will leave the 99 behind to seek the one he is lost. God never gives up on repairing a broken relationship, so we shouldn't give up on His power to do so either.

Since God views the marriage covenant as sacred, we should trust that He will be able to repair it.

This is assuming the first divorces were due to marital unfaithfulness or other exceptional circumstances. If not, then it also depends on if one interprets the act of re-marriage (in the case of illegitimate divorce) as a one time commitment of adultery, or continuous state of of adultery.

http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God's ministry includes healing and reconciliation. We were once God's enemy but he reconciled us to himself through the death of Jesus (Rom 5:10). The Lord is our good shepherd who will leave the 99 behind to seek the one he is lost. God never gives up on repairing a broken relationship, so we shouldn't give up on His power to do so either. Since God views the marriage covenant as sacred, we should trust that He will be able to repair it. This is assuming the first divorces were due to marital unfaithfulness or other exceptional circumstances

Whether or not any of that applies to ZoeGrace, and if so, how, only she can figure out. In any case, if we are free beings, then she is free to choose. What I asked is why God would want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable. Nothing you have said answers that question. If God is supernatural as you have asserted elsewhere, then I suppose he could instantly fix any unhappy marriage if he wished or better yet prevent any marriage from becoming unhappy. But, that is manifestly not the case in the real world including the Christian world. So, you may need to put on your best theodicy shoes to outrun this little problem of evil, bearbear.

[aron]

Delete copy

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

Do you have children? If not, consider yourself free

Neither Jesus nor Paul gave this kind of advice. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't feel so free myself. If the word "sacred" has any practical meaning at all in this world, then probably the marriage covenant is sacred.

But obviously many Christians disagree today. In the LCs, if one's spouse is attached to a different denomination (and "the local church" is a name just like any other) it's probably grounds for divorce. You know, "not being faithful to the ministry". That's probably enough, in their eyes.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

Whether or not any of that applies to ZoeGrace, and if so, how, only she can figure out. In any case, if we are free beings, then she is free to choose. What I asked is why God would want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable. Nothing you have said answers that question. If God is supernatural as you have asserted elsewhere, then I suppose he could instantly fix any unhappy marriage if he wished or better yet prevent any marriage from becoming unhappy. But, that is manifestly not the case in the real world including the Christian world. So, you may need to put on your best theodicy shoes to outrun this little problem of evil, bearbear.

There's no promise in scripture that everyone's marriage will be smooth. Instead scripture says that our faith will be tested by suffering and we should expect it. We should rejoice in our suffering for the sake of righteousness because it makes us partners with Christ in his suffering (1 Peter 4:13). Unjustified divorce is a shortcut out of suffering and would rob us of an opportunity to experience God's grace and grow in relationship with Jesus.

Romans 5:3-5
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

http://www.verserain.com/verseset/sh...7ab049dd9908ca

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

What I asked is why God would want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable. .

You know, there's a funny story in the NT. A woman was miserable, lonely. So she got married. Still miserable. So she got divorced. Still miserable. So she got married. Still miserable.

Finally when Jesus met her she was on her seventh companion.

Misery is an inside job. It doesn't go away with a change of scenery. Believe me, I know; if relocation would fix my problems I would have made it free. I ran for years.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

Neither Jesus nor Paul gave this kind of advice. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't feel so free myself. If the word "sacred" has any practical meaning at all in this world, then probably the marriage covenant is sacred.

But obviously many Christians disagree today. In the LCs, if one's spouse is attached to a different denomination (and "the local church" is a name just like any other) it's probably grounds for divorce. You know, "not being faithful to the ministry". That's probably enough, in their eyes.

You and ZoeGrace are free to follow their advice instead mine. A number of people do with mixed results as far as I can tell. Assuming she owns a Bible, she already had access to their advice before she asked the question here.

I live in a "no-fault" divorce state, so "grounds" is little more than a formality in most cases. Marriage was quite a bit different in New Testament times. Women were often treated as chattel. To leave a marriage might not have been conducive to survival given the first century social welfare system. Jesus and Paul may have been speaking from compassion.

The same isn't necessarily true today in our society when marriage may have more to do with its impact on one's tax bracket. Anyway, no one has answered my "why" question. If it is because marriage is "sacred" then I would ask why is it sacred and what exactly that means particularly in those situations where the married couple is causing each other to suffer.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Unjustified divorce is a shortcut out of suffering and would rob us of an opportunity to experience God's grace and grow in relationship with Jesus.

I'm not suggesting that people jump out of marriage because they are suffering. I'm just noting what everybody knows already: that they are free to do so. If people choose to stay because they care for their partner even though they themselves are suffering, well then, that's their choice. I believe in a God of compassion, so I wouldn't stay for God's sake because I don't think God would want me to.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

You know, there's a funny story in the NT. A woman was miserable, lonely. So she got married. Still miserable. So she got divorced. Still miserable. So she got married. Still miserable.

Finally when Jesus met her she was on her seventh companion.

Misery is an inside job. It doesn't go away with a change of scenery. Believe me, I know; if relocation would fix my problems I would have made it free. I ran for years.

There's a lot of truth to that aron.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm not suggesting that people jump out of marriage because they are suffering. I'm just noting what everybody knows already: that they are free to do so. If people choose to stay because they care for their partner even though they themselves are suffering, well then, that's their choice. I believe in a God of compassion, so I wouldn't stay for God's sake because I don't think God would want me to.

My aunt was in an unhappy marriage and on the edge of divorce. Both probably would have ended it had they not been Christians. However God led them to a healthy church after leaving the LCs and their marriage was saved after both my aunt and uncle were transformed by Gods love. I noticed the change in their relationship and after I left the LCs I decided to give their church a try seeing how much they grew to love Jesus and their growth in humility. They've long been small group leaders since then and have helped to transform many other lives through the love of God.

The thing is we don't know the future but God does. If we base our decisions on our feelings we could be shortchanging ourselves. So we trust in God and lean not on our own understanding and He will make our paths straight. (Prov 3:5-6)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God's ministry includes healing and reconciliation. We were once God's enemy but he reconciled us to himself through the death of Jesus (Rom 5:10). The Lord is our good shepherd who will leave the 99 behind to seek the one he is lost. God never gives up on repairing a broken relationship, so we shouldn't give up on His power to do so either.

Since God views the marriage covenant as sacred, we should trust that He will be able to repair it.

This is assuming the first divorces were due to marital unfaithfulness or other exceptional circumstances. If not, then it also depends on if one interprets the act of re-marriage (in the case of illegitimate divorce) as a one time commitment of adultery, or continuous state of of adultery.

http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html

Goodness bearbear, why don't you just lay the law down on the girl.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Neither Jesus nor Paul gave this kind of advice. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't feel so free myself. If the word "sacred" has any practical meaning at all in this world, then probably the marriage covenant is sacred.

But obviously many Christians disagree today. In the LCs, if one's spouse is attached to a different denomination (and "the local church" is a name just like any other) it's probably grounds for divorce. You know, "not being faithful to the ministry". That's probably enough, in their eyes.

I know of a brother, from Santa Cruz days, and after leaving the LC, whose wife was forced to divorce her husband, by the elders, because he expressed that he was no longer devoted to Lee and his ministry. They had children too, and he loved his wife dearly. It crushed him. So even the local church don't hold to legalism when it comes to divorce.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

There's no promise in scripture that everyone's marriage will be smooth. Instead scripture says that our faith will be tested by suffering and we should expect it. We should rejoice in our suffering for the sake of righteousness because it makes us partners with Christ in his suffering (1 Peter 4:13). Unjustified divorce is a shortcut out of suffering and would rob us of an opportunity to experience God's grace and grow in relationship with Jesus.

bearbear, I don't know how this strikes ZoeGrace, but your idealism in this matter strikes me as so distasteful.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness bearbear, why don't just lay the law down on the girl.

My apologies for going to far with the technicalities. Yet when I think about it, God would probably view the second marriage as sacred despite any conditions because it is still a covenant after all. This is probably above my pay grade and may be suited for someone with pastoral training on this subject. Obviously there are probably many differing views out there and the best advice could be to ask God for an answer. I think the LCs have a pretty conservative view regarding this matter (as long as the couple are both for the ministry from what it seems) so I assumed it was probable zoegrace and her husband's union has the church's blessing and can be upheld by even conservative views of scripture which also makes room for desertion by an unbeliever. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

bearbear, I don't know how this strikes ZoeGrace, but your idealism in this matter strikes me as so distasteful.

Zoegrace said she didn't want the issue to destroy their marriage so it is evident they want to salvage their marriage. I find advice to break their marriage apart distasteful too on the other hand because it does not respect the sacredness of marriage so clearly spelled out in scripture, which zoegrace seems to believe in.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My aunt was in an unhappy marriage and on the edge of divorce. Both probably would have ended it had they not been Christians. However God led them to a healthy church after leaving the LCs and their marriage was saved after both my aunt and uncle were transformed by Gods love. I noticed the change in their relationship and after I left the LCs I decided to give their church a try seeing how much they grew to love Jesus and their growth in humility. They've long been small group leaders since then and have helped to transform many other lives through the love of God.

The thing is we don't know the future but God does. If we base our decisions on our feelings we could be shortchanging ourselves. So we trust in God and lean not on our own understanding and He will make our paths straight. (Prov 3:5-6)

It's true we don't know the future. So, responsible people make these decisions with fear and trembling. It is said that God knows people's hearts. That being the case, it would seem to make sense for us to get to know our own. Which do you think is ultimately more important, to live authentically or to follow the rules? Think of the unruly prodigal son and his ruly homey brother. Who received the greater reward? They say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's true we don't know the future. So, responsible people make these decisions with fear and trembling. It is said that God knows people's hearts. That being the case, it would seem to make sense for us to get to know our own. Which do you think is ultimately more important, to live authentically or to follow the rules? Think of the unruly prodigal son and his ruly homey brother. Who received the greater reward? They say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Yes, It is better to follow the one living inside our heart, Jesus, than following rules for the sake of rules. If we are in love with Jesus we will do what we can to please him which includes obeying his commandments (John 14:15). Genuine obedience comes out of relationship. Obedience to rules without relationship is religion.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yes, It is better to follow the one living inside our heart, Jesus, than following rules for the sake of rules. If we are in love with Jesus we will do what we can to please him which includes obeying his words (John 14:15). Genuine obedience comes out of relationship. Obedience to rules without relationship is religion.

It's all so simple. Jesus is right there plain as day. There's really a pat answer for everything. When you put it like that, it really makes you wonder why anybody has a problem in the world. Must just be the DEVIL messing things up.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's all so simple. Jesus is right there plain as day. There's really a pat answer for everything. When you put it like that, it really makes you wonder why anybody has a problem in the world. Must just be the DEVIL messing things up.

If everyone was filled and led by the Holy Spirit and loved Jesus and therefore their neighbor as they should, then it would be paradise on earth. Jesus is the solution to all our problems, Jesus is the way to eternal life.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My aunt was in an unhappy marriage and on the edge of divorce. Both probably would have ended it had they not been Christians. However God led them to a healthy church after leaving the LCs and their marriage was saved after both my aunt and uncle were transformed by Gods love. I noticed the change in their relationship and after I left the LCs I decided to give their church a try seeing how much they grew to love Jesus and their growth in humility. They've long been small group leaders since then and have helped to transform many other lives through the love of God.

The thing is we don't know the future but God does. If we base our decisions on our feelings we could be shortchanging ourselves. So we trust in God and lean not on our own understanding and He will make our paths straight. (Prov 3:5-6)

My name is Ohio and i appove of this message.

[ZoeGrace]

I apologize....I didn't mean to imply that I want to leave my marriage. That is a definite NO! I love the man and I know the Lord put us together for a reason. We both had devastating, disastrous, and abusive in my case, previous marriages. We both believe that marriage is sacred and that it takes work. And we really do love one another. I guess the problem boils down to...the most important part of my life is my faith, as is his, and having some of the LC issues between us makes it harder to have that deeper relationship, because if you can't share the most important part of your life, what have you got? We tend to start out well, but then things disintegrate when we lean toward the Life Studies and the Recovery bible. Here's an example: He wanted to have a bible study/home prayer meeting at our house and invite our neighbors. I was fine with that. It started out quite innocent. We got together, everyone bringing their bibles. We prayed, did some singing and then discussed what book of the bible would be interesting. We decided on John as we had some young adults that had never read a bible. The next meeting, out come the books the LC use for the high school kids and everyone got a Recovery NT. We didn't read much scripture, focusing mostly on the LC books and the footnotes in the Recovery. Some people did not come back. The next meeting, one of the FT couples from the area came and then it really got serious. Most people were like, what are they talking about and why aren't we reading the bible? We made it six weeks and it collapsed on itself. And that is generally how it starts in our private life as well, and seems to follow that same pattern. I have also been treated somewhat disdainfully because of perceived lack of understanding of the Life Studies, Recovery footnotes and HWMR. I wasn't quite called stupid, but it was intimated. (I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and not the dullest either!) I don't know if I am explaining this very well.

I would agree with Aron that I have been judgmental and not very sympathetic, which definitely does not help the situation. Like I said, not my finer moments. I think I understand why my husband loves the church life. It is his family. He came from a very broken home and when he began meeting with the LC, it was everything he never had. He met his first wife there, raised their children there and was 110% involved. I am speculating here, but I am supposing that to him it is a personal attack on his family when I am negative and judgmental about the LC.

And also, what Aron said about programing makes sense. When we first met, everything was stripped away...he was on his own in a foreign land...I am speaking metaphorically...it's called urban vs backwoods rural. LOL! Small enough that outsiders were looked upon with suspicion. I heard so many rumors...on the run from the mafia, witness protection, etc. (Sorry...had to make a heavy situation a little lighter!) At the time, most of us attending worship services treated each other like one big family. Now, it is like that never happened. My husband says the pastor was never a friend because of the clergy/laity system and talks about when he looked out into the congregation, all he saw were “dead” people looking back. (We were both part of the music worship team.) I don't get it...the pastor was very respectful to my husband and there were some wonderful christians to fellowship with in the area. (I should explain that we moved several states away from that area. I still visit as that is my home town. He hates to go back there because it is so “dry” and he “dies of thirst” while he is there! Which kind of depresses me since my children, grandchildren and extended family are all there. Suffice it to say, the LC does not do well there!)

Bearbear...thanks for the youtube links. I will peruse them. I doubt I can get him to watch any of them. He thinks the internet is “evil” as I have asked him about the DayStar company previously. He was there when that was occurring. And I have asked him about other things I have read online. He dismisses them all and says that the enemy has used many people to speak lies about the LC and Witness Lee.

Zeek and bearbear are right...Jesus is the answer to everything. Of course, we are human and boy, do we mess things up!! I, for one, am very thankful for forgiveness, mercy and grace!

I really appreciate that this is a safe, respectful and compassionate place to hear other perspectives and be able to look at situations from different angles. That is a true blessing. And by doing so, you have shined light into some of my dark places!! I believe you have all given me some good advice and things to ponder and pray about. Thank you!!

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's all so simple. Jesus is right there plain as day. There's really a pat answer for everything. When you put it like that, it really makes you wonder why anybody has a problem in the world. Must just be the DEVIL messing things up.

In all due fairness, usually the answer is quite simple. It is our problems that seem complicated. But God usually has a way to cut the "Gordian knot" if we let Him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

[Dave]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

Here's an example: He wanted to have a bible study/home prayer meeting at our house and invite our neighbors. I was fine with that. It started out quite innocent. We got together, everyone bringing their bibles. We prayed, did some singing and then discussed what book of the bible would be interesting. We decided on John as we had some young adults that had never read a bible. The next meeting, out come the books the LC use for the high school kids and everyone got a Recovery NT. We didn't read much scripture, focusing mostly on the LC books and the footnotes in the Recovery. Some people did not come back. The next meeting, one of the FT couples from the area came and then it really got serious. Most people were like, what are they talking about and why aren't we reading the bible? We made it six weeks and it collapsed on itself. And that is generally how it starts in our private life as well, and seems to follow that same pattern. I have also been treated somewhat disdainfully because of perceived lack of understanding of the Life Studies, Recovery footnotes and HWMR. I wasn't quite called stupid, but it was intimated. (I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and not the dullest either!) I don't know if I am explaining this very well.

I really appreciate that this is a safe, respectful and compassionate place to hear other perspectives and be able to look at situations from different angles. That is a true blessing. And by doing so, you have shined light into some of my dark places!! I believe you have all given me some good advice and things to ponder and pray about. Thank you!!

It goes without saying that you and your husband on are not on the same page, at least, in this area of your lives. As active as he is this is a significant part of your lives. I am not sure you are looking for answers but more interested in talking to someone who can understand what you are going through. It would be nice if there was someone in your area who had our LC backgrounds who you could relate to and share your difficulties.

It sounds like you are doing the best you can considering the situation. People live with those who have different faiths all the time and for you it is like living with a Mormon. You have to settle on his Life Studies, his Recovery Bible, his friends, his LC lifestyle etc. When I was involved back in the day I was praying every morning and going to meetings almost every night and I don't know how much his active LC involvement impacts your life together but obviously you will have to focus on the time he is not involved to make your life enjoyable. Not sure if you would be able to attend another church without hearing about Babylon all the time or have church friends without the same result but hopefully you can develop friendships or have friends or family you can spend time with. BTW...you may have mentioned this but how has he impacted your family---children, brothers, sisters if at all? take care.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

My husband says the pastor was never a friend because of the clergy/laity system and talks about when he looked out into the congregation, all he saw were “dead” people looking back. (We were both part of the music worship team.) I don't get it...the pastor was very respectful to my husband and there were some wonderful christians to fellowship with in the area.

Notice the subjectivity. "I looked out into the congregation and saw dead people looking back." I could say the exact same thing about an LC congregation, or any congregation if I wanted to.

I remember in one LC meeting, and the "young people" got up to testify about a road trip they took. One of the things they visited was a great big cathedral in the city. One of them said that when they went there, he felt dead and cold. But when they had a home meeting, he felt warm and alive. It got a great big "amen" from the group. Yes, but how about when I felt dead and cold during his testimony? And how about the little old lady in the city who went into the big cathedral and felt warm and alive?

In the LC subjectivity reigns. As long as you "feel good", and you are programmed to "enjoy the ministry", then you are fine. And everything except the "ministry" and the "church life" is incessantly hammered as grossly deficient, so how can any member "feel good" about anything else? It is a programming issue.

All you can do is have a good program yourself. Love your neighbor. If your neighbor belongs to the LC, so be it. Love them. You don't have to agree with everything; just find common ground and go on.

An interesting thing: God is so powerful that we really can love our neighbor. There is a Muslim at my job, and all we agree on, doctrinally, is that "God is good." So we say this to each other all day long. It's pretty funny actually. He is very serious about his faith and he realizes so am I. But we get along and respect each other. I have no problem with him or his faith, nor he with mine. Then a few weeks ago I asked him if he believed David was a prophet and if the Psalms were oracular of God. He said yes. Suddenly I had an opening to share some of my experiences, and he was very impressed with what I have seen. And I am impressed that Islam is about submission, and obedience. Surely this man was put there to remind me to submit to God's will!

People who demand that everybody else be exactly like them, in order for them to be comfortable and happy, will never be comfortable and happy. Because God put you in a universe displaying the variegated glory of God.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Not sure if you would be able to attend another church without hearing about Babylon all the time or have church friends without the same result but hopefully you can develop friendships or have friends or family you can spend time with. BTW...you may have mentioned this but how has he impacted your family---children, brothers, sisters if at all? take care.

Good points here. If you can have Christian fellowship where you are valued not as a member of some group but as a believer, that may help you. You don't have to "join" a different congregation. It can be someone at work, in the neighborhood, in your family or friends. Just someone who listens to you because God is in you and cares. That is important. And God will move in the LC group, as well. God is a businessman and put you there for a reason. The situation is never hopeless. God can move anywhere. Just be patient, stay connected, and look to Him always.

God bless.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

If everyone was filled and led by the Holy Spirit and loved Jesus and therefore their neighbor as they should, then it would be paradise on earth. Jesus is the solution to all our problems, Jesus is the way to eternal life.

Right, and the strange thing is that even Christians who believe exactly this, still have the same problems as everybody else.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right, and the strange thing is that even Christians who believe exactly this, still have the same problems as everybody else.

I can see where you are coming from because I recently watched an episode of Kitchen Nightmares on Amy's Baking Company:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLdkvEziZUc

Chef Amy makes her faith known to the viewers. However, although it's evident that she identifies as a Christian, she obviously has problems living out Jesus' teachings on forgiving others and loving your enemies. Instead of directing her worship and affections on to Jesus, she is diverting it to things that can't satisfy her (success in running a restaurant) and then hijacking her faith as a means to help and justify her misdirected goals. If this is the type of Christian you are exposed to on a daily basis then I can't fault you. But I know from personal experience that there are Christians out there who do have the love of Jesus and glorify God by hosting the love of God and His presence in their hearts.

What I had in mind was if everyone on earth loved Jesus like my Grandma. She's my role model and a person I know who loves Jesus and others in humility dearly. She's been through many terrible things in her life, but her relationship with Jesus has always carried her through every storm.

Of course we'll all be in different life stages / maturity so many of us including myself still struggle to live out God's word and to love our enemies, so we will still have issues to work on but God will be there to help us if we are willing.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

Good points here. If you can have Christian fellowship where you are valued not as a member of some group but as a believer, that may help you. You don't have to "join" a different congregation. It can be someone at work, in the neighborhood, in your family or friends. Just someone who listens to you because God is in you and cares. That is important. And God will move in the LC group, as well. God is a businessman and put you there for a reason. The situation is never hopeless. God can move anywhere. Just be patient, stay connected, and look to Him always.

God bless.

(Note: I attend a church that has woman pastors/ministers)

One of the ministers in my church grew up in a Catholic home but had a dramatic encounter with God the day she decided to commit suicide due to physical/sexual abuse. Her best friend forced her to attend a youth meeting at her church on that same day without knowing what she was planning. She became a born-again Christian but her family was strictly Catholic and didn't allow her to attend the evangelical church she was saved in.

After fellowshipping and praying with her youth counselor at church they decided it was best to honor/submit to her parents wishes for a season. So she did her best to obey and honor her parents despite their differences.

She testified that while she was attending the Catholic church with her family and going through rites and ritual bowing/kneeling, she felt the presence of God come upon her strongly each time (including tangibly in the form of a blowing wind she could feel) and she would weep. Although she couldn't make it to the church she wanted to go, God made sure to visit her in the Catholic church each time. After she turned 18, her parents were moved by the changes they saw in her and respected her evangelical/Christian faith and blessed her wish to attend whatever church she wanted in college.

I don't know if this applies in this case because a child/parent relationship is going to differ from spouse/spouse but aron's advice reminded me of this testimony.

The LCs emphasize a wife submitting to her husband, but according to 1 Peter 3:7 if a husband does not honor his wife, God will not listen to his prayer. And Peter says both are equal co-heirs in Christ, which would have been a revolutionary concept in those times. A balanced biblical view of marriage probably falls along the lines of mutually submitting/serving one another.

1 Peter 3:7
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

My husband says the pastor was never a friend because of the clergy/laity system and talks about when he looked out into the congregation, all he saw were “dead” people looking back. (We were both part of the music worship team.) I don't get it...the pastor was very respectful to my husband and there were some wonderful christians to fellowship with in the area.

He thinks the internet is “evil” as I have asked him about the DayStar company previously. He was there when that was occurring. And I have asked him about other things I have read online. He dismisses them all and says that the enemy has used many people to speak lies about the LC and Witness Lee.

ZoeGrace, the local church is every bit part of the clergy/laity system without being as obvious.

If your husband was in Anaheim, he probably knew John Ingalls (who still lives there). If you or your husband has read Speaking the Truth in Love, what is the sentiment?
Generally in regard to local church history, it's a type of Isaiah 5:20. Truth is regarded as lies and lies are regarded as truth.

[bearbear]

This is a beautiful marriage prayer song sung by John Waller and his wife that has helped both my wife and I. It encourages both husband and wife to serve to one another and to love each other and God more each day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4_sfgjRcfI

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Thanks for sharing.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Chef Amy makes her faith known to the viewers. However, although it's evident that she identifies as a Christian, she obviously has problems living out Jesus' teachings on forgiving others and loving your enemies. Instead of directing her worship and affections on to Jesus, she is diverting it to things that can't satisfy her (success in running a restaurant) and then hijacking her faith as a means to help and justify her misdirected goals.

Isn't that quite a presumptive statement? Do you think that being in business is a diversion of affections from Jesus? If that is the case, then we all have problems since we have been commanded to do excellent work for our bosses no matter who they are. And this kind of position finds such diligent work to be a hijacking of the faith.

I think that one problem that so many of us have is that we think that the faith and love for Jesus is about spiritual endeavors and that secular endeavors do not count. The truth is that the real Christian life is not in meetings and in testimonies (or prophesying) but in living the life of Christ in the world as we do all the "secular" things that are so often despised.

This is the big problem. Too many Christians separate the Christian life from the secular life when there should be no such thing for the Christian. Everything should be Christian and nothing secular. There is no separation of church and state in the manner in which we live our lives.

Yes, it is true that some people will try to put lipstick on a pig by making Christian statements as they live lousy, immoral lives. But you have provided no evidence that Amy is such a person. Rather someone who lives an honest life providing good food for her customers and with it has a venue to point to the fact that her life is tied-up with Christ. Is she perfect? Evidently not, although you provided little evidence other than some kind of generality. Might it be better for her to consider all aspects of loving her neighbor if she is going to be such a public spokesperson for Christians? Probably. But that is true of us all. And her lack of forgiveness is not evidence that her success in business is about a hijacked faith. That is presumptive, at best. And quite possibly a poor presumption.

Where is the action that is worthy of such a complaint?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't that quite a presumptive statement? Do you think that being in business is a diversion of affections from Jesus? If that is the case, then we all have problems since we have been commanded to do excellent work for our bosses no matter who they are. And this kind of position finds such diligent work to be a hijacking of the faith.
....
Where is the action that is worthy of such a complaint?

I have no problems with any Christian running a business or working in the world of which I am one. Actually I was trying to be as gentle as possible. I recommend watching the show or a shorter summary clip. They did things like verbally threaten, swear at and physically assault customers and staff. They also stole 100% of tips from waitresses and served reheated frozen food that was advertised to be fresh. The restaurant had a turnover of over 100 staff within a year, some who broke down and cried from the emotional abuse during the show. Amy believed God was on her side in all this. After the show, the owner was almost arrested for assaulting a customer with a knife. This isn't your typical Christian run business.

That said there are probably many issues at play with Amy's psychology, past hurts and upbringing and I shouldn't judge her, and we should pray for her. However she is misrepresenting the faith.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...abrk/16400137/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthi...-facebook-ever

[OBW]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I have no problems with any Christian running a business or working in the world of which I am one. Actually I was trying to be as gentle as possible. I recommend watching the show or a shorter summary clip. They did things like verbally threaten, swear at and physically assault customers and staff. They also stole 100% of tips from waitresses and served reheated frozen food that was advertised to be fresh. The restaurant had a turnover of over 100 staff within a year, some who broke down and cried from the emotional abuse during the show. Amy believed God was on her side in all this. After the show, the owner was almost arrested for assaulting a customer with a knife. This isn't your typical Christian run business.

That said there are probably many issues at play with Amy's psychology, past hurts and upbringing and I shouldn't judge her, and we should pray for her. However she is misrepresenting the faith.

I will accept your characterization as reasonably accurate. And, as I noted, this is always a potential problem with some of the vocalizations from people who openly claim faith but live as if they have none.

My real complaint was that it seemed that at least part of you post was chastising her for being successful in business as if that is, by definition, impossible for a good Christian. It should not be, yet there is a propensity for some to make those kinds of statements as if they are gospel fact. And we all hear them so much that it is sometimes just part of our own background noise and then we speak it without really thinking about it.

And I don't want to beat it anymore because it is not really about living with an LC spouse.

[Cal]

ZoeGrace,

All I can add is to encourage you to pray a lot. God answers prayer. I happen to think if ex-LCers and friends of LCers would analyze and talk less and pray more everyone would reach the point of freedom much sooner.

LC indoctrination is a spiritual stronghold. It is difficult to appreciate the level of conviction and compulsion your husband experiences. I know because I've been under it. It's an extremely powerful, guilt-and-fear-based mindset. Mere words will not change things. The Bible says spiritual strongholds are dealt with by divine power.* Prayer is the way to tap into God's power and bring it to bear. Your husband cannot be won over by reasoning alone. God has to act in power, and will, if you pray.

The great thing about prayer is it brings us close to God and forces us to deal with him as we ask him to deal with our situations. As you pray for your husband, God will speak to you about what your attitude should be. He will change YOU in just the right way to have the proper effect on your husband. But you must trust him and pray, a lot. Fretting and arguing won't do anything like prayer will. You must become a prayer warrior. I'm serious about this.

The good news is LCers do try to tune into God. In fact, they take pride in the idea that they are "walking in the spirit" and listening to God's leading. The problem is they get so much interference from the programming aron spoke of that they don't hear God as much as they think they do. But they do want to. So that opens a door for you.

Look at it this way: As you pray, day after day, even month after month, God will either tell your husband to listen to you, or he will tell you to listen to your husband. In the meantime you will grow closer to God in ways you never imagined. So you really can't lose. The circumstance is sovereign. God wants to do great things and is waiting for you to pray. I will pray, too.

Igzy


* "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
2 Cor 10:4-5

[ZoeGrace]

Hello, again. I wanted to stop by and post that I really appreciate all the advice. I have been encouraged by your words. I do believe my greatest fault was trying to control and “over-think” the issues and no patience for the Lord to do His work in me. Focusing and worrying about where my husband and I are today is basically doubting that the Lord can resolve everything in His time. I was also so overwhelmed with guilt for not wanting to follow the Recovery, a good portion of it self imposed, that I made everything worse. Since I have stopped pushing back, it has certainly been better. I do enjoy browsing the comments here as they continue to give me insight into the Recovery. This site has also helped me to be much more empathetic with my husband as he is a victim also. Maybe victim is too strong a word, I don't know. Thank you for having such a great resource to help people involved with the Recovery.

[Lisbon]

I want to post a strong amen to Igzy's post above on the importance of prayer.

I live in a family of four LCs whom I am very close to. I believe by the mercy of The Lord I have had no arguments these two years. I continually get the check from The Lord to essentially say nothing. I agree heartily with Igzy that we are in a spiritual battle and The Lord has to be the victor. More and more I love that scripture,"unless The Lord build the house, unless The Lord keep the city, they labor in vain."

This just has to be our experience.

Lisbon

It appears that I and ZoeGrace have much in common. I, too, am married to an LCer who feels absolutely driven to remain in the LC, regardless of how much light and life he finds elsewhere. I was raised in the Bible church and had strong, clear Bible teaching from an early age on. This was not true of my husband. While he attended a mainline denomination for many years, he never heard the gospel until attending the LC for the first time. His attachment, therefore, is very strong since they provided the information he needed to gain salvation by calling on the Lord and also provided the first real teaching he had ever had in the Bible. I personally believe the number of these kind of persons in the LC is a high one. Due to having come from a church that taught little or having no church background at all, the LC has become, almost literally, their "mother" and they have difficulty abandoning her no matter what else they may "see" as time progresses.

How did I choose to deal with this? Well, at first, with his kind understanding and permission (although he frequently shared his feelings with great "enthusiasm" about the superiority of the LC), I began attending a Bible church again. While I truly enjoyed my time there, I felt bothered about my decision. This "bothering" or "brooding" went on in my heart for some years. Being rebellious, I chose to ignore it with arguments about differences in doctrine or, yes, even the unfavorable things I had heard about Daystar, etc. This did not fix the "problem" I felt inside. Something was not right and I knew it. I began to think about what the meaning of the word "submission" was and knew that I was not in alignment with it. If our husbands are truly to be the spiritual leaders in our home (and I believe the Bible indicates they are), we would, then, need to follow that leadership. Oh, how I fought this! Slowly, my conviction grew about following my husband's leadership. These were, after all, dear people who truly loved the Lord Jesus. Were their doctrines and teachings different? Yes, some. But did they love the Lord Jesus and earnestly seek to follow Him to the extent that they knew how? Most definitely! I could find no clause in Scripture exempting me from following my husband's leadership--especially since these were TRUE BELIEVERS worshiping the same Lord I professed to worship. I began to consider how Sarah had persuaded Abraham to take Hagar to produce a son and the results of that insertion of HER will into that situation. I reconsidered how Rebekah schemed for Jacob's sake (inserting HER will and preference) and the sad outcome of never seeing him alive again. And I began to seriously think about what the outcome would be if I continued to follow my own, separate path. Now, mind you, my husband had openly and purposely given me verbal permission to go to where I was happy. It was never HE that caused me to feel this way. After years of inwardly fighting against this feeling but growing more and more convicted that I should follow my husband's leadership, I decided to go to the LC and remain. Instantly the burden of conviction was lifted. There were, however, trials to come as I had to constantly deal with teachings that were "off" to me and to listen to constant criticism leveled against other denominations--which, at the least, are a waste of breath, and, at the most, the ugly sin of judging. Then I made the astonishing discovery that while they were judging others, I was guilty of judging them simultaneously! We are not given special exemption to judge others because they judge us or those we like! (It took me years to catch on to this--and I was a so-called Bible student!) So, I have had to work on NOT judging them for judging others, lest I fall into the exact same sin!

Please understand that it is NOT my intention to tell you what to do--only to share what has happened to me as I took these things to the Lord. LCers are true believers. That is an inescapable truth. It is for this reason that I CAN worship with them, differences in doctrine and terminology aside. I have looked for those that I can minister to inside and tried to pour myself out on them. I have tried to make myself useful and serve on those committees (service groups) that I am asked to work in. I have made good friends in the LC that I have come to love. My husband's God was always my God, but now his people have become my people. I know what I believe inside about various doctrines and cannot be persuaded differently, but, as I am a guest in their "house", I keep my mouth shut about those and just enjoy talking about Jesus with them--an inexhaustible and beautiful topic and person!

Oh--and what about all that "stuff" that happened with WL, Daystar, and whatever? Well, I have a friend who is Catholic and she says that all the stuff about all those evil popes and priests does not change the fact that she is there to worship Christ. I have Baptist friends whose churches have had to depose preachers for affairs, stealing from the offerings, or just plain goofing off. They stay in those churches and worship, regardless. They just become wiser about what to do and what not to do. We all have to be vigilant and make the decision NOT to be involved in those things not of Christ. I was never a part of those things. My husband was not involved. No one I know in the LC that we attend was ever a part of that. Are there some who were involved who are still in leadership positions? Perhaps, but our lives do not touch theirs as far as I can tell (outside of the trainings and materials we receive--and I have already shared that I still have differences with the teachings). Is it possible that they are doing things that we would not approve of with our tithes and offerings? We do not know of anything that would give us pause and God knows that we are giving to Him. Those who misuse His funds will have to answer to Him.

I am now at peace with God about where I worship. I no longer have the dread of inserting my will into my husband's efforts to lead and facing the possible negative outcomes. I still speak to him about those things that bother me and he listens patiently. He still loves the LC. I love him and want him to be happy. And I want to be with him where he is happy--as long as Christ is our focus and center.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am now at peace with God about where I worship. I no longer have the dread of inserting my will into my husband's efforts to lead and facing the possible negative outcomes. I still speak to him about those things that bother me and he listens patiently. He still loves the LC. I love him and want him to be happy. And I want to be with him where he is happy--as long as Christ is our focus and center.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.

A great testimony; thanks for logging on. It cannot be overstressed that when you perceive others behaving in a sectarian and divisive way, there is NO invitation from God waiting for you to respond in kind. The Christian way is always magnanimity.

If the shoe was on the other foot, however... how many LC wives deal with husbands who don't meet there with them, and do not submit to God's sovereign arrangement? Just some food for thought.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It appears that I and ZoeGrace have much in common. I, too, am married to an LCer who feels absolutely driven to remain in the LC, regardless of how much light and life he finds elsewhere.

Two further comments (sorry, I am chatty). First regarding the RCC, it could be argued that Luther and Erasmus showed two alternate choices. Both perceived the failures, some deep and profound, which swirled around them. But Erasmus stayed. Today if you read Erasmus, you may be surprised by the depth of his writings. Luther, while he did pick up on "Justification by faith", is much more shallow. (This is my personal opinions of course, but it's the opinion of one raised Protestant fundamentalist who was trained to despise and overlook everything Catholic).

Secondly is your comment that these are true believers with the same Lord Jesus. Yes and no. We all have the common faith, yes. But I have found by looking at the text (see e.g. my thread on the Psalms) that Witness Lee taught them that there was "no Jesus" there. So that was disappointing to me. Am I a better person than any of them? Of course not! But if you talk about Jesus with them it may be according to their doctrines and not according to the actual text of scripture. Just something to keep in mind.

As an illustration, my friend tells me a story about someone he met once. The guy kept going on and on about how he loved Jesus. "I love Jesus!" He kept saying over and over. The guy took him home and there on the wall was a blacklight poster of "Jesus of Nazarene", like the ones you get in a gas station for $15. The guy knew no scripture, wasn't really interested, but this poster was his guardian. So the guy had a name and a few rudiments, and he did incessantly talk about 'love', but it can still be challenging to talk to such a one. How much common ground is there?

But, but, but.... if God puts that guy with the poster on the wall, in your life, do you despise him? Remember the question the Pharisees asked, "Who is my neighbor?" Or do you receive him, or her, as best as you can?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Today if you read Erasmus, you may be surprised by the depth of his writings. Luther, while he did pick up on "Justification by faith", is much more shallow. (This is my personal opinions of course, but it's the opinion of one raised Protestant fundamentalist who was trained to despise and overlook everything Catholic).

I am not arguing here that Luther made the wrong choice, and that the RCC is the "true" church. The RCC arguably abandoned the Orthodox, who would more rightly claim the "true" church mantle. But arguing over "true" churches is a waste of breath.

I just think it is interesting that when Nee and Lee left the Protestants they didn't care much about the sanctity of the church. Suddenly it was about the sanctity of the ground. But once they got it up and running, o boy do we love the church! They did a complete reversal. Now you could never question the church, or its leaders. Even if they were wrong they were the shepherds of the flock. But that logic didn't hold when Nee and Lee were under the Protestants.

The problem with being a fundamentalist is that you hold the rules when they are to your benefit, but when they aren't helpful you ignore them, and search for other rules.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Two further comments (sorry, I am chatty). First regarding the RCC, it could be argued that Luther and Erasmus showed two alternate choices. Both perceived the failures, some deep and profound, which swirled around them. But Erasmus stayed. Today if you read Erasmus, you may be surprised by the depth of his writings. Luther, while he did pick up on "Justification by faith", is much more shallow.

aron,

While I observe the differentiation of outcome for Erasmus and Luther, and wonder if things might have been better for all if Luther had not accepted the protection of the German government and departed, in our current state of affairs how does one determine what is the place to stay? Just because you are born into a particular "tradition," or saved within it, or change affiliation at some point in the past, what is it that makes any one of them the one to keep?

There is evidence within the RCC that things are not simply stagnant, nor that they only go downhill. But they do not move quickly to change. so has Martin Luther stayed the course, he or his thoughts might have had to outlive a pope to become seriously debated and considered, and possibly added to the teachings. But through his own exit, he help create the current system in which all groups, new or old, are prone to stick to their ways and let those who disagree just keep quiet or leave. So when things get really bad, rather than having a self-correcting system of open discussion — even of issues that are contentious — they (we) all tend to take a position, close our eyes and ears, and run off anyone who disagrees.

In that kind of system, the only way that truly bad teachings and practices are exposed is for something that looks a lot like the Mars Hill Seattle, not Grand Rapids) debacle of the past weeks. Many of the satellite groups have completely disbanded in no time. And those that live on will struggle to find their way in a different landscape. And it will not be discussions that changes the LRC. It will either be such an exodus that the people start to take note that something is wrong and eventually the excrement hits the fan, or it will slowly push the gross sins, and the extremism into the past and rock along as another Seventh Day Adventist or similar group that insisted on remaining loyal to a lousy (dead) leader and fade into obscurity.

I applaud those who remain where they are not entirely in agreement. But that is generally meaningful and successful where the differences are on the table, not hidden in a closet. Where the Pentecostal guy is more than just attending a decidedly non-Pentecostal assembly. (teaching, even leading, but able to abide by the doctrinal statement) But I am not sure that I can agree to continue to abide by a doctrinal standard that is as errant as that of the LRC just because I was already there when I realized how off it was. If I had know in advance, I would never have darkened the door. Why does the historical fact that I did darken their door make me somehow under obligation to stay? Maybe we just assert that I was visiting — for 14 years.

[OBW]

I will add that when you add the fact of a spouse who is taken one direction while the other intends a different direction, there is a dynamic at play that is not as simple as the singular consideration. So I do not propose drastic actions where differences of opinion among married persons is involved. Yet that does not mean that unanimity is required.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am now at peace with God about where I worship. I no longer have the dread of inserting my will into my husband's efforts to lead and facing the possible negative outcomes. I still speak to him about those things that bother me and he listens patiently. He still loves the LC. I love him and want him to be happy. And I want to be with him where he is happy--as long as Christ is our focus and center.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.

Interesting life transition testimony. If you are at peace I don't know if anything else can be said.

In regards to Daystar, I wasn't involved but a considerable number of people lost money at the urging of WL. It's interesting that you would compare it to the many things that go wrong in churches. In regards to the Catholic church it would be like comparing WL to the Pope who would be found out that he mistreated people and took their money. Once people found out he would be condemned and the RCC would lose members. Yes, it happens but after WL condemned other churches for being Babylon he was held to a higher standard. As it turned out he was on the same plane as those he judged harshly and his preaching didn't produce the transformation expected by people in him. In addition, it seems like the LC swept it all under the rug along with other problems.

As I indicated, I think some of the "judging" of the LC is because of their own harsh judging of others, their lawsuits, their mistreatment of others such as excommunication of long time caring members etc. They opened themselves up to it.

Once a person becomes involved in it the experience of many is that it is very difficult to get out and when you do often people have a difficult time over a course of time. Of course, each person is different. Hope it all continues to work for you.

[Cal]

Unregistered,

You are to be commended for seeking peace with your husband and a reasonable resolution to your life dilemma. A divided house is not a good thing, and the Bible does ask the wife to submit.

At the same time, you should realize that your decision to make the best of things in no way excuses the LC for its crimes. We are not just talking about money mismanagement. We are talking about treating people as chattel. In a word, abuse. No group is perfect, but the best groups own up to their mistakes. The LC's abuses are not relics from the past. They continue to this day as common policy. The LC will not change until the rank-and-file insist on accountability. That means your husband and you and the rest of the common members.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I am not arguing here that Luther made the wrong choice, and that the RCC is the "true" church. The RCC arguably abandoned the Orthodox, who would more rightly claim the "true" church mantle. But arguing over "true" churches is a waste of breath.

I just think it is interesting that when Nee and Lee left the Protestants they didn't care much about the sanctity of the church. Suddenly it was about the sanctity of the ground. But once they got it up and running, o boy do we love the church! They did a complete reversal. Now you could never question the church, or its leaders. Even if they were wrong they were the shepherds of the flock. But that logic didn't hold when Nee and Lee were under the Protestants.

The problem with being a fundamentalist is that you hold the rules when they are to your benefit, but when they aren't helpful you ignore them, and search for other rules.

Interesting views aron.

I grew up as an active Catholic, educated in their schools, named after my uncle The Priest OFM. Luther and them Lutherans were regularly denigrated. Then i joined the LC's and Luther suddenly was a great hero, the first MOTA in fact, but of course we still condemned those blasted Lutherans.

It all boils down to which side of the fence we are on. According to Lee, God would judge me if i ever spoke up about his failures, but it seemed as if God would provide us with a double blessing for openly critiqueing those outside the Recovery in "poor, poor, Chritianity."

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

aron,

While I observe the differentiation of outcome for Erasmus and Luther, and wonder if things might have been better for all if Luther had not accepted the protection of the German government and departed, in our current state of affairs how does one determine what is the place to stay?

There is evidence within the RCC that things are not simply stagnant, nor that they only go downhill. But they do not move quickly to change. so has Martin Luther stayed the course, he or his thoughts might have had to outlive a pope to become seriously debated and considered, and possibly added to the teachings. But through his own exit, he help create the current system in which all groups, new or old, are prone to stick to their ways and let those who disagree just keep quiet or leave. So when things get really bad, rather than having a self-correcting system of open discussion — even of issues that are contentious — they (we) all tend to take a position, close our eyes and ears, and run off anyone who disagrees.

I know there are people out there who'd condemn the bolded part above, as the musings of an armchair warrior. They would say that Luther was a "lover of Christ who gave his all and offered a sweet fragrance to the Lord". Etc.

But we have the benefit of history, and time, and we should use it. It is not sacrilegious to ask such questions, and to pose such "counterfactuals" in history. To ask "what if". If nothing else it makes us a little more humble, and not so quick to leap to the conclusion that we are right, and wearing white hats, and the other party is black as sin itself. I think that contention is a tricky business. Surely I as a poster here have been outspoken, repeatedly, but at the same time I hope to always try to remember that "the other guy" is still arguably my neighbor.

I really know too little of the story: did Luther really try to remain, or was there some other force(s) at work? Did Nee really try to work it out with the Protestants, or was he seeking an excuse to jump ship and start his own thing, with himself as Top Dog (naturally)? I can neither condemn nor excuse... I truly don't know. My own motives here are likewise not always pristine -- maybe sometimes I just want to vent instead of closing the door and praying to the Father who is in secret. Maybe I just want to preen and puff up my "knowledge" in front of an audience. Who knows? So a little circumspection is in order.

But I will say this: if you read Luther's last letters blasting Erasmus for betraying "the cause" (Reformation), and read Erasmus' reply, it looks like Luther is the foaming madman and Erasmus has retained his sanity. Not only that, but Luther's stance regarding the European Jewry, and his indifference to the tens of thousands who were butchered in the peasant uprisings which followed his political/religious unrest, reveal him as not God's Man of the Hour. Luther was just another bozo on the bus, doing his best. Likewise if you read Nee's later work it seems that he really forgot all about Jesus Christ in his attempt to reconcile his movement ("the Church") with the onrushing Communist Party ("the State"). His writings to me show no light at all. A lamentable darkness, in fact. But would I have done worse?

Originally Posted by OBW

I applaud those who remain where they are not entirely in agreement. But that is generally meaningful and successful where the differences are on the table, not hidden in a closet. Where the Pentecostal guy is more than just attending a decidedly non-Pentecostal assembly. (teaching, even leading, but able to abide by the doctrinal statement) But I am not sure that I can agree to continue to abide by a doctrinal standard that is as errant as that of the LRC just because I was already there when I realized how off it was. If I had know in advance, I would never have darkened the door. Why does the historical fact that I did darken their door make me somehow under obligation to stay? Maybe we just assert that I was visiting — for 14 years.

The problem here, as I see it, is that we are trying to move from specifics to generalities, and back and forth. It can get strange quickly. Surely there are cases where the HS says "Leave". And others where the word is unequivocally "Stay". As one who shuttled from Protestantism to the Local Churches and back, if anyone should have circumspection here, it is I. And as our friend "Unregistered" pointed out, it is often the people who are rootless, not stable, the proverbial lost sheep, that get tossed to and fro in the welter of ideas around them. Surely that was me as well; I have shared my testimony.

But Paul did write that if God called you as a slave, remain as a slave. If you were called while married to an unbeliever, that is God's problem, not yours. Surely Luther, and Nee, and other "schizmatics" should really ponder these ideas carefully. I will at least say that much. I do know that it is useful to find a forum to put my thoughts in the open. Luther didn't have a discussion forum; we do.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Interesting views aron.

I grew up as an active Catholic, educated in their schools, named after my uncle The Priest OFM. Luther and them Lutherans were regularly denigrated. Then i joined the LC's and Luther suddenly was a great hero, the first MOTA in fact, but of course we still condemned those blasted Lutherans.

Interesting to think how we grow up captive to the message of our environment. Hopefully we learn to challenge it, before we wade into a crowd of women & children with a vest of explosives strapped on. Or the verbal equivalent, here on the internet.

It is my holiday wish that many like zoegrace and Unregistered, who meet with the LCs not because they are under the ministry of the age, or they are God's unique move on the earth, but because they name Jesus Christ as Lord, would sign on & say hello. And that those here already would greet them with welcome and blessings. You know, peace on earth and goodwill toward all who are called according to the purpose of God. (And that purpose is not "building the church"; it is to believe into His Son).

[awareness]

I married a Chinese sister in the local church. The best wife I ever had. She was submissive by nature, before ever learning about "wives submit to you husbands" in the Bible. She did it in stride. It was part of her personality, so it seemed.

But because of how our marriage was arranged in the local church the marriage was missing what a marriage is really based upon: LOVE.

We had no time to date, or get to know each other, and fall in love. There was no romance. We married because we thought that was what God wanted [the elders wanted]. Lee told us, "find a sister [any sister will do] get married, and go on with Christ and the church." (What a nutjob Lee was).

I guess what I'm saying sister Zoe is, if you and you husband really love each other in the end you'll work it out. Submission may only be a part of that, for now, and in your present situation. But love may at one point find other ways to make it work. In the end it's love that makes it work. If you love your husband you won't even have to try to submit. You prolly won't even notice that you are doing it.

Many blessings, peace, and love ...

Ha

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It all boils down to which side of the fence we are on. According to Lee, God would judge me if i ever spoke up about his failures, but it seemed as if God would provide us with a double blessing for openly critiquing those outside the Recovery in "poor, poor, Christianity."

We let Lee challenge our thinking, but none of us could challenge his; likewise today the Blendeds can expose our concepts but no one is allowed to expose theirs. But I don't think it's disrespectful to challenge people's thinking. I think it is a sign of respect for the God who put us in conversation. Obviously some will think differently than I -- should I ignore them, or try to listen, and find God's voice there? And having listened, can't I then respectfully communicate what seems to be missing God? We can be respectful of each other even if we hold each others ideas at arm's length. Arguably the great message of the Bible is love; God loved us and sent His Son. Though Jesus often disagreed with his followers, He would not let them go.

I remember on one internet forum heavily populated by Lee die-hards I acknowledged his ministry, then said what parts I found deficient. They said that I was praising him, then attacking him, like I was a traitor. Like Lee had blessed me with his teachings but I cursed him in return. I was being simultaneously "positive" and "negative" -- a no-no to them. I then replied that the LSM publication was called "Affirmation and Critique"; why was I being blasted if I both affirmed and critiqued Lee? Why could they do it, and none could do it to them? Puzzling. Why be so stressed if someone doesn't agree with every single thing you say? Especially if you are happily judging others?

A forum is a good place to disagree, yet still acknowledge each as valid. A place to critique ideas yet not disparage the idea-holder. The main message of the Bible is to love one another as Jesus did to us. If we acknowledge one another, even being different and often thinking differently, that's probably a confirmation of God's peace. The fact that LC leadership, both past and present, has been unwilling and unable to acknowledge those who think differently is a real sign of weakness. Hopefully they will at some point try to join the rest of the human race. Because God loves the human race, not just those "under the ministry".

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I married a Chinese sister in the local church. The best wife I ever had. She was submissive by nature...

Perhaps she was submissive by culture, not by nature. The problem with the fallen human culture, which in the LCs wasn't supposed to exist any more, is that often you don't see it until it jumps up and kills you. Then you wonder what truck just ran you over?

That the LCs don't acknowledge culture among them indicates to me that they're willing to let the same dump truck run them over and over and over...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Perhaps she was submissive by culture, not by nature.

Yes maybe. You could see it that way. It might have been her breed. What ever it was it was her nature.

Originally Posted by aron

The problem with the fallen human culture, which in the LCs wasn't supposed to exist any more, is that often you don't see it until it jumps up and kills you.

Just where do you live bro. I've never even come close to something jumping up to kill me.

Originally Posted by aron

Then you wonder what truck just ran you over?

Help me understand here. In this metaphor, and this context, is the truck the LC, or the spouse?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just where do you live bro. I've never even come close to something jumping up to kill me.

Metaphorically speaking. Kills your enjoyment, your vitality, and spontaneity of your relationships. Because you went left and the other party went to the right. "Blonk!!" No shared understanding, and game over.

Help me understand here. In this metaphor, and this context, is the truck the LC, or the spouse?

The truck is culture. Earthly, fallen, human culture. Culture (my definition) is the shared norms, values, experiences, understandings and expectations that allow a society to function harmoniously. So if you're a bachelor, and see a submissive female, that's probably more attractive to you than a yappity one. And "submissive female" is more common in some cultures; "independent female" is more common in other cultures. It's just culture, pure and simple.

But there is a Mack truck hidden there. There always is. And the LC, which supposedly had no vestiges of earthly culture remaining, allowed Mack trucks to roam freely, squashing tender feelings and fragile relationships.

Kapeesh?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Metaphorically speaking. Kills your enjoyment, your vitality, and spontaneity of your relationships.

Well I did see that sort of thing in the LC. And experienced it. What keeps us in after losing our enjoyment? I suppose the same thing that keeps us in a joyless marriage. Our heart is deeply invested.

Ya wanna know what I thought was insidious about some thing Witness Lee said? I hope so ... cuz I'm gonna tell you anyway. I remember Witness Lee would say that Wives, Husbands, and Children, or brothers and sisters if we were single, were our Little Grinders ... supposedly polishing us living stones, and supposedly in this painful process accomplishing God's eternal purpose. It was cute, and usually brought laughter.

But he said it too many times for him not to be serious about it. I think what was insidious about it was how it made us look at each other; like all we were to each other was sandpaper.

So in that way, whatever was killing our joy was to be considered good for us, and good for God's eternal purpose.

It's such a mind trap; trapped by deep heart attachment. And hard to get out of ... like a bad marriage ... and painful.

Enough of my rambling about that ...

Originally Posted by aron

The truck is culture. Earthly, fallen, human culture.

You're saying a mouthful there bro, and mind full. Reminds me of -->Cow, Pigs, Wars, and Witches<-- ... And -->The Story of B <--(clip). -- (Heads up Dave - On the Boiling Frog)

Originally Posted by aron

And the LC, which supposedly had no vestiges of earthly culture remaining ...

That's the death of the Old Man idea, isn't it? We're suppose to be the New Man ... a man of no culture (or heavenly culture). But I never saw any vestiges of the old man really gone. One example: tribalism. Tribalism is unquestionably of the old man, going back, actually, to our primitive days. And the local church, and Witness Lee, was and still is very tribalistic. "The New Man?" Don't make me split a gut.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

I remember on one internet forum heavily populated by Lee die-hards I acknowledged his ministry, then said what parts I found deficient. They said that I was praising him, then attacking him, like I was a traitor. Like Lee had blessed me with his teachings but I cursed him in return. I was being simultaneously "positive" and "negative" -- a no-no to them. I then replied that the LSM publication was called "Affirmation and Critique"; why was I being blasted if I both affirmed and critiqued Lee? Why could they do it, and none could do it to them? Puzzling. Why be so stressed if someone doesn't agree with every single thing you say? Especially if you are happily judging others?

aron, are you referring to the old Bereans forum?

I still remember the sideways looks I got when I wondered (aloud) why we could have a magazine that "critiques" others...

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

Metaphorically speaking. Kills your enjoyment, your vitality, and spontaneity of your relationships. Because you went left and the other party went to the right. "Blonk!!" No shared understanding, and game over.

The truck is culture. Earthly, fallen, human culture. Culture (my definition) is the shared norms, values, experiences, understandings and expectations that allow a society to function harmoniously. So if you're a bachelor, and see a submissive female, that's probably more attractive to you than a yappity one. And "submissive female" is more common in some cultures; "independent female" is more common in other cultures. It's just culture, pure and simple.

But there is a Mack truck hidden there. There always is. And the LC, which supposedly had no vestiges of earthly culture remaining, allowed Mack trucks to roam freely, squashing tender feelings and fragile relationships.

Kapeesh?

Some of the things Witness Lee was teaching during his last few years:

-divine and mystical realm
-"God became man to make man God"
-the need in the Lord's Recovery for "a new language" with "a new culture"

Here is a quote re the latter point (emphasis is mine):

"In the third stage of His ministry, the stage of His intensification, Christ is accomplishing three great things. First, He is intensifying His organic salvation; second, He is producing His overcomers; and third, He is consummating the New Jerusalem. Hence, in summary, in the three stages of His full ministry, Christ accomplishes ten great things. The New Testament simply deals with these ten things. This is the new language expressing a new culture in the Lord's recovery that has never been seen in Christianity." (Lee, Witness. How to be a Co-worker and an Elder: And how to Fulfill Their Obligations. Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1996. P. 43.)

So while Lee often spoke of the wiles of "fallen human culture," he also proposed that "the Lord's recovery" could have "a new culture" complete with "the new language" to express it.

To put it another way -- Hallelujah, when our group has a culture, it is not like all those other organizations with their own fallen, human culture!

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

aron, are you referring to the old Bereans forum?

I still remember the sideways looks I got when I wondered (aloud) why we could have a magazine that "critiques" others...

Yes, and don't you dare to "critique" LSM. Right? Only they are qualified to criticize others.

The forum is called "Network Norfolk and Norwich." On the guestbook some of the Liites were offering their wares. See e.g. "Is Jesus the Father?" I tried to respecfully engage them.

The moderators there were pretty severe. I think that is the only thread remaining on the guest forum. The Liite posters could get pretty vicious if you persisted in questioning their logic. And really Witness Lee's theology is little more than homespun 19th century logic applied to scripture. Partly valid, partly not. But if you pointed that out to them boy did they get aggressive!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

The forum is called "Network Norfolk and Norwich."

Link it bro ... link it ...

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Link it bro ... link it ...

See the new thread. I don't want to derail this one further. It's in the "Local Church in the 21st century" section.

[ZoeGrace]

Interesting comments from Unregistered Guest. I am very happy that she has found a way to be at peace with her situation. For some reason, I have had the opposite occur. When my husband started back with the LC, I jumped in whole-heartedly and began reading everything. Bought the RV bible and began reading the footnotes. Studied the morning revival. Listened to the video trainings. Totally immersed myself in the LC. I had a nagging feeling telling me to be cautious, but I ignored it as the LC people were on fire for Jesus! I had never been exposed to anything quite like it. Circumstances occurred that caused me to have extended time away from the LC, and I attended other “denomination” meetings as there were no LC meetings in the area. I also reconnected with my Christian friends who, coincidently, believed I had disappeared and when I did happen to reappear, all I did was send them LC materials. So, was it coincidence that circumstances caused me to not become totally immersed in the LC? I don't know, but when I did go back to LC meetings, I was no longer sure that this was where I was supposed to be. That is actually when things became most intense between my husband and myself. I began questioning things and since my husband had been in the LC so many years, he was the one I went to for advice and information. When I compared scripture to LC teachings/writings and pointed this out, he would dismiss it. Again, circumstances occurred that caused my husband and myself to live apart for quite a while (not because of our marriage or the LC...suffice it to say my children's lives went way off course and my husband and I agreed the only thing to do was go and deal with the crisis.) It actually made our relationship stronger. So lately, I try to “keep my mouth shut” most of the time, but sometimes the absurdity causes me to lose that ability! An example: The pastor of our church where my husband and I met...to me we were excellent friends. We shared meals, our eldest daughters were best friends, we prayed together and my husband and the pastor did a lot of outreach, not only the spiritual, but the physical needs. They had a lot of theological discussions, but respectfully. And now... “that pastor was never my friend as he thought he was above me with his self-taught pastorship (never went to formal college!) and participation in the clergy-leity system.” To me, that is ABSURD! On so many levels!!!

In meetings, sometimes I sit back and think...Wow, these people sound totally irrational! Sorry if I offend, that is not the purpose. I haven't been attending very often. Have met a couple of times in homes with other couples.

Back to the guest post. I watch how the wives submit to their husbands and the LC families' lives seem to be peaceful. Maybe I was/am being disrespectful by not following my husband's lead. Hmmm...leaves me with some food for thought!

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

Back to the guest post. I watch how the wives submit to their husbands and the LC families' lives seem to be peaceful. Maybe I was/am being disrespectful by not following my husband's lead. Hmmm...leaves me with some food for thought!

I remember in my LC that wives with husbands not meeting in the Recovery system weren't under any compunction to submit to them regarding fellowship. If the husband wasn't "for the ministry" or "for the churches" or "for the Body" then all bets were off. Likewise, an LC elder with unbelieving or lawless children could ignore Paul's advice to Titus (1:6). So if the scripture supported the ministry we'd say, "the Bible says"; and if it didn't we'd essentially ignore it.

Secondly, look at the context of "wives submit". This was an unequal social environment, 2,000 years ago, and suddenly in Christ Jesus everybody was "free". So slaves wondered why they were slaves, etc. Everybody suddenly was wondering if they were also free of the social strictures. We are all equal in Christ; how to co-exist in an environment in which we are not. Paul's advice was to accept the social environment "as from the Lord". Don't struggle to erase external social distinctions. Accept them for what they are. So Paul's advice to the "weaker vessels" should be understood in its social context. Remember that he was also writing to Greeks, Jews, slaves, masters, etc.

If it were simply the law of the land, "wives submit", then why are other laws being ignored, like Titus 1:6, etc, etc, etc? Why the selective focus? Why is it only being selectively applied when it is favorable to the cause?

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZoeGrace,

All I can add is to encourage you to pray a lot. God answers prayer. I happen to think if ex-LCers and friends of LCers would analyze and talk less and pray more everyone would reach the point of freedom much sooner.

LC indoctrination is a spiritual stronghold. It is difficult... to appreciate the level of conviction and compulsion your husband experiences. I know because I've been under it. It's an extremely powerful, guilt-and-fear-based mindset. Mere words will not change things. The Bible says spiritual strongholds are dealt with by divine power.* Prayer is the way to tap into God's power and bring it to bear. Your husband cannot be won over by reasoning alone. God has to act in power, and will, if you pray.

The great thing about prayer is it brings us close to God and forces us to deal with him as we ask him to deal with our situations. As you pray for your husband, God will speak to you about what your attitude should be. He will change YOU in just the right way to have the proper effect on your husband. But you must trust him and pray, a lot. Fretting and arguing won't do anything like prayer will. You must become a prayer warrior. I'm serious about this.

The good news is LCers do try to tune into God. In fact, they take pride in the idea that they are "walking in the spirit" and listening to God's leading. The problem is they get so much interference from the programming aron spoke of that they don't hear God as much as they think they do. But they do want to. So that opens a door for you.

Look at it this way: As you pray, day after day, even month after month, God will either tell your husband to listen to you, or he will tell you to listen to your husband. In the meantime you will grow closer to God in ways you never imagined. So you really can't lose. The circumstance is sovereign. God wants to do great things and is waiting for you to pray. I will pray, too.

Igzy


* "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
2 Cor 10:4-5

Love this post.

Our temptation is to draw battle lines. We argue our best case and feel good about our argument. That good feeling is just in the flesh, and leaves us with no real peace. We are trying to win a spiritual battle with weapons of the flesh. To live by the flesh is to die, and even though we might feel victorious in our minds, we have no peace, because we are not abiding in life.

The Living Stream Ministry is a stronghold of the Enemy in the minds of too many dear believers. Strongholds are built with much work. There is a whole lot of sweat associated with the brainwashing of the Living Stream Church believers - great effort to be "trained," and great effort to keep that "training" locked into the minds. However, we should never loose sight of the fact that it is indeed in the realm of unseen things.

I can't speak to everybody's experience in marriage. Given their situations I can't know what I would have done. I won't be so presumptuous as to judge my fellow believers who lost their marriage over dastardly Local Church advice, or, what they call "fellowship." For my part, I couldn't even think of sacrificing my marriage on the altar before Witness Lee. I consider it a sacred thing. The Lord was merciful to us in our situation. In spite of a long battle, ours was preserved.

I must say, though, that if I had been less carnal in my methods, the battle might have been way shorter.

My advise would be to try and save your marriage. Pray much and spend as much time as possible before the Lord.

It's a funny thing. People will say they have been liberated from the grips of a cult-like Christian sect, such as the Living Stream Church, and rejoice with great noise. But there is always something so comforting to return to the old slipper. I can't understand it because I never had that draw to go back to the Catholic Church. It's real though. Those who are held by the tentacles of Witness Lee's ministry need our prayers and understanding. In a sense, they don't know what they are doing.

Wow! It's been a while since I posted here, and stopped writing articles for a local periodical about 3 months ago. It's amazing how fast writing skills can go downhill. Forgive me.
pc

[Dave]

Izgy said

Fretting and arguing won't do anything like prayer will. You must become a prayer warrior. I'm serious about this.

Great statement but not supported in the NT. Right belief is supreme. I don't care what you pray if you don't have the proper belief it is for naught. I'm not referencing the OT but the NT.

[UntoHim]

Wow, way out there Dave, way out there. Care to sight some verses?

[bearbear]

Great advice Paul and I look forward to reading more of your posts here. Our war is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces which require weapons not in the natural but in the spiritual.

Eph 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Jesus said those who live by the sword die by the sword, but then he also said he didn't come to bring peace but a sword.

In the first instance, Jesus was talking about the swords of the physical world and the flesh, in the second instance he was referring to spiritual warfare.

Prayer is a powerful weapon which Paul mentions in Ephesians 6, as well as many other tools available for the believer in his arsenal.

Ephesians 6
Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.

On a maybe unrelated note, I noticed that it's interesting that the last bit of the verse relates both the word of God and prayer, to the Spirit. That reminds me of a prayer intercessor who I met with recently. His advice was to take the word of God and pray it back to him when a believer doesn't know what to pray. He found that kind of prayer to be the most effective from his experience. It sounded somewhat like read-praying, interesting! (however it is not to be taken as a religious routine, but instead it's taking God's word and praying it from your heart)

Basically you can take a promise of God and pray it back to him. For example, when you feel like you need wisdom, you can take hold of this promise in James 1:5

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you."

and pray something like

"Lord God, your word says you give generously to all without finding fault and that you give wisdom to those who ask. I ask that you would please give me wisdom concerning this situation. I ask that you would give me insight in how you view this situation and what I should do."

I recall Countmeworthy sharing something along these lines from her experience with praying also. There is some good stuff from Nee and Lee's ministry if you can separate the chaff from the wheat.

[OBW]

An interesting interchange, starting with a portion from a much earlier post of Igzy's:

Originally Posted by Igzy

But you must trust him and pray, a lot. Fretting and arguing won't do anything like prayer will. You must become a prayer warrior. I'm serious about this.

Originally Posted by Dave

Izgy said Great statement but not supported in the NT. Right belief is supreme. I don't care what you pray if you don't have the proper belief it is for naught. I'm not referencing the OT but the NT.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Wow, way out there Dave, way out there. Care to sight some verses?

Funny thing is that Igzy's post, while not considered "way out there," was not challenged for references/verses. He did have a verse (actually 2) immediately after his signature, but those did not actually mention prayer. Maybe the context outside of that would make it so . . . . it doesn't. Can I assume that prayer is part of what Paul was talking about here? Maybe. And that would be a typical assumption. But it is not necessarily so.

So what are our weapons if not prayer, or if not just prayer?

Other places, while not described in these precise words, seem to indicate that the Word is a significant weapon. And since the Word is also spoken of in relationship to prayer, that cannot be omitted.

And there is the "blood of the Lamb," and the "word of our testimony." (And while not on topic, I would say that the word of Lee's testimony was poor because his testimony was of financial trickery, lies, and slander — all perpetrated on the flock he claimed to shepherd.)

(At least one other came to mind as I was typing, but I lost it before I could finish what I was on. Another "squirrel" moment.)

I think that neither Igzy nor Dave are wholly correct, nor wholly wrong. Prayer is clearly part of our arsenal. But prayer is primarily the means by which we invoke the power of God, and part of how we listen to understand what God is saying in his Word.

But belief is the core of any of it. If, as Dave suggests, I do not believe, I am not sure what kind of response God will give to my prayers. I do believe that there are examples of contrite heathen in the OT praying to God for healing and obtaining God's grace/mercy. But they were specifically in obedience to the one true God. If they were simply praying to every god they ever heard of, including Yahweh, I a not sure that they should expect much from it. (Of course, in the right circumstances, it is within God's power to grant the request of any prayer, and to use that as the proof of his power and supremacy.)

It would seem that prayer might be the glue of the relationship, and the channel for our relationship with God. But the power is in the Word. In the name of the Lord. And the overcoming of Satan is by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.

And if we don't believe, none of it is relevant.

I would even suggest that, assuming the so-called "sinner's prayer" is important, there must be belief in the prayer or it is nothing. If I am saying words that I do not believe, what is it? Yes, it is only the grace of God that saves me. But do I get that grace for salvation without belief? Does already having belief nullify that the only thing that saves me is the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross? No. I still cannot save myself through my own works. But I must have come to believe to receive the gift. I think that people who insist that I can't even have the belief first have taken it too far.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Dave

Great statement but not supported in the NT. Right belief is supreme. I don't care what you pray if you don't have the proper belief it is for naught. I'm not referencing the OT but the NT.

You are kidding, right?

Regarding "right belief" being supreme, what does that mean? Do you mean having faith, or believing the right doctrines?

If the first, obviously I was talking about prayer with faith.

If the second, then you are flat-out wrong. The Bible never says we have to be doctrinally correct to get our prayers heard. Do you think the Roman centurion in this story had the "right beliefs."

Luke 7:6 - 10
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof.That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. or I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

As for prayer as fighting not supported in the NT. Really?

Mark 9:29 - And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.”

Colossians 4:2 - Be earnest and unwearied and steadfast in your prayer, being alert and intent with thanksgiving.”

Ephesians 6:10-18 - Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

[Rick Coleman]

Originally Posted by Dave

Izgy said Great statement but not supported in the NT. Right belief is supreme. I don't care what you pray if you don't have the proper belief it is for naught. I'm not referencing the OT but the NT.

James 5::16 ... The effectual fervent prayer of a rightoues man availeth much.
Our prayers aer effectual when we live a life that is pleasing to the Lord.

[Cal]

Why would anyone try to make the case that I was implying in any fashion that prayer without faith is effective? To me prayer is only prayer if it is an expression of faith.

Really, guys...

Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Neither did I imply in any fashion that prayers are not hindered by sin.

James 4:3 - You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

Mark 11:25 - “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

And others. I never said someone could be unbelieving and committed to sin and be an effectual prayer warrior.

I said that in order to break free of the LC mental strongholds, you have to pray. That's biblical. Why anyone would have a problem with that is beyond me. Unless they have an impulse to minimize prayer, which, coming from the LC, is possible.

[Cal]

To me the Word and prayer work together. When I say pray, again it should be obvious I don't mean that praying something other than the Word is better than praying the Word.

But I guess since I didn't mention the Word explicitly some take that to mean I was excluding it. This is the "mutually exclusive" way of reading posts--if someone doesn't mention something, assume they don't believe it. It's a great way to ignite needless controversies.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Neither did I imply in any fashion that prayers are not hindered by sin.

And others. I never said someone could be unbelieving and committed to sin and be an effectual prayer warrior.

This verse supports both of your statements ...

I Timithy 1:18-19 "Fight the good fight, holding faith and a good conscience."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This verse supports both of your statements ...

I Timithy 1:18-19 "Fight the good fight, holding faith and a good conscience."

Good point. Wow! That sums it all up.

[UntoHim]

Ok, in deference to our new friend ZoeGrace, can we all take a step back, take in a deep breath and try to be a little less confrontational? Only around this place do you see people go at each other on a thread where somebody is reaching out for some words of wisdom!

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

Any words of wisdom? I don't want this to destroy our marriage, but it is very lonely outside of the LC when that is considered THE only social life! It is hard to have friends when they are looked upon as a recruit! And, if they are not interested, they are considered foolish and in “Babylon.”

I find your website very informative. Many of the things I question are being discussed. It's hard to be a fairly “new” Christian (30 years catholic) and try to muddle through all of this! Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for prayer as fighting not supported in the NT. Really?

Mark 9:29 - And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.”

Colossians 4:2 - Be earnest and unwearied and steadfast in your prayer, being alert and intent with thanksgiving.”

Ephesians 6:10-18 - Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

Igzy,

Your own verses show how you are overstating your position. Yes, prayer is a part. It is not the thing.

The first clearly indicates that there are times when you need to pray. But the way it is stated seems to indicate that, as was their experience, that kind of prayer was not always required — just the actions that they have been taught to do (command, etc.). So it does not make a case of primary or "always" weapon of warfare. It might still be true, but this verse does not get you there. It even suggests something different — one of several weapons in the arsenal. Choose the right one at the right time.

The second is not about fighting, so doesn't make the point.

The third makes it clear that it is part of the arsenal. There is a full armor that is required. And prayer comes along. There are many things listed. Prayer is but one.

I know that some have claimed that I have gone onto a works kick lately. I think they miss the fact that I am generally speaking to the things that I see as missing from the discussion, not replacing the discussion. In the same way, you have lately seemed to jump over everything else and landed on prayer as the end-all to every issue. That is probably not what you intend, but it is how it comes off. And putting out verses that do not actually support what you are saying seems to underscore that notion.

I realize that prayer is not like breathing. You have to try to not breath. But at some level, I think that your words concerning prayer would be better understood as an add-on. Sort of like line in that classic drama, Follow That Bird, in which Elmo exhorts Big Bird "Don't forget to breathe!!. In and out!"

As I said, you can't forget to breathe. But you can forget to pray, so the reminders are welcome. But they are not the all-important thing. They are part of that complete breakfast. They are one of the important tools in the box (and hopefully all of them are sharp).

And similarly, works are not everything. And they are not a simple thing. They are everything that you do, whether serving at the homeless shelter, doing your job well, driving civilly, being honest in your dealings with others, etc. In other words, works are how you live as a Christian in everything you do. And we never ignore it all. But sometimes we think that because we have grace, we can be sloppy in our works and claim grace to cover it. And sometimes we think we can just do it and continue to do it without any contact with God. We need prayer. And yet when we come up against an issue, it may be that the answer is in the Word (not necessarily spelled-out, but in principle). And setting our wills to quote scripture to Satan when he flings arrows at us is important. And on and on.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok, in deference to our new friend ZoeGrace, can we all take a step back, take in a deep breath and try to be a little less confrontational? Only around this place do you see people go at each other on a thread where somebody is reaching out for some words of wisdom!

ZoeGrace,

Pray for your husband and marriage, and use the Word when you pray. Pray in faith and be on the lookout for sins that hinder your prayers.

Howzat?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy,

Your own verses show how you are overstating your position. Yes, prayer is a part. It is not the thing.

OBW, I never said it was the thing. The reason I emphasized it is because I believe it is neglected. It is neglected far more than posting on this board is, if you catch my drift. Again I believe if most ex-LCers on this board prayed more they would get better results. That was my main point to ZoeGrace.

In deference to UntoHim's wishes, let's drop it. All I was doing was clearing up what I meant. There is no need for micro-analysis on this thread.

Thanks for your comments.

Igzy

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZoeGrace,

Pray for your husband and marriage, and use the Word when you pray. Pray in faith and be on the lookout for sins that hinder your prayers.

Howzat?

Excellent prophesying. Short, quick, living, and to the point!

But OBW will still find fault, you see, because spiritual things can't just be brokendown into fragmented instructions ...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Prayer is a powerful weapon which Paul mentions in Ephesians 6, as well as many other tools available for the believer in his arsenal.

Ephesians 6
Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.

On a maybe unrelated note, I noticed that it's interesting that the last bit of the verse relates both the word of God and prayer, to the Spirit. That reminds me of a prayer intercessor who I met with recently. His advice was to take the word of God and pray it back to him when a believer doesn't know what to pray. He found that kind of prayer to be the most effective from his experience. It sounded somewhat like read-praying, interesting! (however it is not to be taken as a religious routine, but instead it's taking God's word and praying it from your heart)

I love and speak Ephesians 6 a lot. I rejoice in the revelation the Holy Spirit gave to your prayer intercessor friend Bear-Bear. That's EXACTLY how I pray. It is an uplifting 'habit'. A good habit I have developed. I also pray 'personal' prayers. But for me, there is nothing quite like praying the Word BACK to Father God by His Spirit. How can we go wrong praying GOD's WORD back to HIM? It is HIS WORD after all!

Basically you can take a promise of God and pray it back to him. For example, when you feel like you need wisdom, you can take hold of this promise in James 1:5

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you."

and pray something like

"Lord God, your word says you give generously to all without finding fault and that you give wisdom to those who ask. I ask that you would please give me wisdom concerning this situation. I ask that you would give me insight in how you view this situation and what I should do."
I recall Countmeworthy sharing something along these lines from her experience with praying also. There is some good stuff from Nee and Lee's ministry if you can separate the chaff from the wheat.

That's EXACTLY how I pray !!!! I use the different titles of God to address Him as well: Jehovah Jireh (Provider), Jehovah Raphi (Healer), Jehovah El-Shaddai (Almighty God), Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit etc....

I personally LOVE to pray. And I do think there was something Anointed in pray reading. It was a foundation for me that taught me how to pray the Word back to El-Shaddai.

I don't 'pray read' like we were taught back in the day but I do read the Word prayerfully.

[Cassidy]

Unregistered> These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.


Sister, thank you for sharing your experience. I am deeply touched how the Lord would not let you go, how you responded to Him, your experience of the cross, and how the Lord blessed you with the peace that passes all understanding for your obedience.

May grace continue to chase after you on your journey.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZoeGrace,

Pray for your husband and marriage, and use the Word when you pray. Pray in faith and be on the lookout for sins that hinder your prayers.

Howzat?

Only sis Zoe can say. I would just add that sometimes prayer can be an avoidance to what should be done in the first place.

Only sis Zoe can know if prayer is helping her or not. Maybe prayer can end up leading us away from what we know should be done.

None of this is easy when we're going thru it. Maybe we can't give definitive answers to our sister. But we can stand with her. And we can pray for her.

And wish our sister ZoeGrace nothing but blessings ... whatever the outcome.

Ha.old

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe prayer can end up leading us away from what we know should be done.

Not likely. Not real prayer anyway.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Excellent prophesying. Short, quick, living, and to the point!

But OBW will still find fault, you see, because spiritual things can't just be brokendown into fragmented instructions ...

Not very charitable. Seems like you can find fault in my speaking before I make it.

And I find no fault in Igzy's comments.

I did find fault in a series where UntoHim insisted upon references from Dave, but not Igzy (and there was no relevant verse in the post quoted by Dave). And then when verses were provided by Igzy, I did not find them to make the case that he appeared to be making. And even as I said that, I noted that it was what I could read in what he said, not what I actually thought was intended.

But what you write is what gets read, not what you intend. (And don't I know that well.) And providing irrelevant verses weakens whatever case is actually being made.

It is not unimportant.

No, this is not the right thread for the discussion, but it is where it happened, and just taking it elsewhere sometimes makes it seem bigger than it really is.

[OBW]

BTW. Short, quick and to the point can be good (and probably was in this case). Living, on the other hand, is subjective. If you mean that Igzy was alive when he wrote it, then that is fairly certain. If you mean that the instruction was short, quick, and to the point, therefore living, then just say short, quick and to the point. If you meant something spiritual by it, then what does it mean? The right thing to say? An important thing to say? A reasonable thing to say?

But short, quick and to the point is not always the best answer . . . unless you expect to hear the little bells ringing on your testimony if it goes over the allotted time.

Again, off topic. But I seem to be turning into the LRC-speak Natzi.

[HERn]

I hope things are going well for you ZoeGrace.

[ZoeGrace]

Thank you HERn...things have been going well actually. I have taken much of the advice from this forum and applied it to my situation. Becoming a prayer warrior like Igzy suggested has been a blessing. Colossians 4:2 really helped bring my life into focus. And Ephesians 6:10-18. Also, I chose to love and honor my husband as he is a gift from the Lord and a blessing in my life. My attitude has changed and I believe that our relationship is even better now. I stopped feeling guilty that I don't go to Recovery meetings and that was a major step in the right direction. It took the pressure off of myself and my husband. He seems to be at peace with my decision to not attend LC meetings and I am at peace that he chooses to attend. We have actually had discussions about Bible verses we are reading without arguments. I decided that I would listen to his testimonies, as that is what he really enjoys, without comment. I asked that he stop going on and on about the “evil” denominations and so far he has toned that down immensely. He sometimes will throw out some deliberate comments about my Christian and non-Christian friends, but I let it go because it really does not matter. I love them and that will never change. I have been trying to focus more on the things we both enjoy, like our love of music. The last several years he would only listen to ministry music and I am a CCM fan (even though some of it is not that substantial, but fun nonetheless!) He has been listening to the CCM music again with me and wants to start playing some of the songs together. To me, this is HUGE as Christian music has been in the same category as denominations! He especially has been touched by “Broken Together” by Casting Crowns. Common ground for new beginnings?? I know it is oft repeated, but, the Lord works in mysterious ways!

I think this forum is excellent. It is a positive and encouraging place for people with LC connections to find solace, companionship, and advice, even when opinions differ. I am very thankful I stumbled upon this site!

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

... He has been listening to the CCM music again with me and wants to start playing some of the songs together. To me, this is HUGE as Christian music has been in the same category as denominations! He especially has been touched by “Broken Together” by Casting Crowns. Common ground for new beginnings??

An interesting aspect of exclusivist Christian groups is that they claim their "goodly heritage" from Christianity, while shunning any contemporary expressions. So you can sing John Wesley and Frances Crosby, but once the hymn-writer Watchman Nee began to pen songs, then Christianity suddenly became void.

When I was there, any contemporary Christian expression, whether book, magazine, music or whatever was considered grossly inferior to "the apostle" Witness Lee, and usually "leavened" with something of the fallen human soul, and thus unfit for public consumption in the local church. That seems to have changed somewhat, especially since now "the apostle" is deceased and no longer producing material for consumption. So they are grudgingly allowing that Christianity exists, and might, just might have something worth saying.

That's progress.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

I think this forum is excellent. It is a positive and encouraging place for people with LC connections to find solace, companionship, and advice, even when opinions differ. I am very thankful I stumbled upon this site!

The only thing missing is a "Like" button for great posts like that one!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The only thing missing is a "Like" button for great posts like that one!

And vBulletin supports it ... if only UntoHim can figure it out.

[UntoHim]

I'm not sure if your talking about the icons you can attached to a post, but they are there right below the posting box. I have attached a smiley to this post. Otherwise you can ask Igzy, he probably could figure it out.

[Lisbon]

I've had a personal saying for many years,"there's no telling what's in the Bible." Within the last couple of years I came across 2Chron 20;12. This is one of the top verses in my Bible. Jehoshaphat is being attacked by some group and he quotes, "Oh our God, see all these enemies coming against us which we are powerless to fight off. We don't know what to do but our eyes are on You." That's our case most of the time. Things really have to be simple for us to take care of.

Praise the Lord and our eyes can be and must be on Him.

Lisbon

[boughtbyJesus]

Blessings ZoeGrace,

I am a new member having just posted my own experience with this group. When I read your 1st post, it was like reading my own experience.

My husband too has said some of the hurtful things you wrote about and I feel your pain. I am currently in the midst of these scenarios in my own home.

I pray that God would show us both the way to interact with one another and to treat each other with love and kindness and have stopped (not always successfully) telling him he has been brainwashed and has been deceived. I have also stopped trying to change him or what he believes. I realize that I cannot change his heart, that is not my job nor is it something that I can accomplish. I'm just giving it to the Lord, he is sovereign, he is good, he is faithful, and in his time and in his way, my husband will see the light!