Re: Life after the LC

Hello all,

Op here

Interesting the way this discussion has involved.

I have a few dear friends who are gay. The stuff they go through is unfortunate...I certainly cannot judge...one girl is one of the most supportive people I know. Says a lot. The real world is complicated and the writings of a select few fail miserably to explain. Divorce, psychological things and the like are taboo. I realized I didnt know people all that well, as shown by the falling out between me and the longtime roommate? In what other culture would you keep that sort of thing a secret from a close friend?


I realized my views on the world in truth havent changed too much.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In what other culture would you keep that sort of thing a secret from a close friend?

The LC is a very compartmentalized world. There is the public face, then there is the reality. That's just the way it is.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hello all,

Op here

Interesting the way this discussion has involved.

I have a few dear friends who are gay. The stuff they go through is unfortunate...I certainly cannot judge...one girl is one of the most supportive people I know. Says a lot. The real world is complicated and the writings of a select few fail miserably to explain. Divorce, psychological things and the like are taboo. I realized I didnt know people all that well, as shown by the falling out between me and the longtime roommate? In what other culture would you keep that sort of thing a secret from a close friend?


I realized my views on the world in truth haven't changed too much.

In most traditional cultures you might be inclined to keep that "sort of thing" secret for fear of being rejected for it. You certainly might keep it a secret from a Christian friend given how many Christians feel about it. That doesn't just apply to LC Christians. But, yes, it seemed to me during the last days of my participation in the LC that we were engaging in displays of pseudo-oneness in meeting of people who didn't really like or know each other very well. Sexuality in general was off limits for discussion, to say nothing of homosexuality. There wasn't even language for talking about homosexuality except to condemn it. It was literally, "unspeakable."

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

There wasn't even language for talking about homosexuality except to condemn it. It was literally, "unspeakable."

I remember overhearing two brothers talking about some "rebellion" or "storm", which evidently recently had occurred, and when I asked them what they were talking about one of them looked at the floor and said, "We don't talk about it." In other words, if I wasn't already in the conversation, then I wasn't getting into it with them. I never knew any of the details, until I came on the internet. Linko, Philip Lee, Daystar, none of it was mentioned publicly or privately.

There was a lot of unspeakable stuff going on there. Not just sexuality. There was a code of silence. If Big Brother doesn't speak it from the podium, then it doesn't exist.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

The LC is a very compartmentalized world. There is the public face, then there is the reality. That's just the way it is.

Yeah, there's no cure for it so far. And they prolly wouldn't even seek treatment for it if there were.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a few dear friends who are gay. The stuff they go through is unfortunate...I certainly cannot judge...one girl is one of the most supportive people I know. Says a lot. The real world is complicated and the writings of a select few fail miserably to explain. Divorce, psychological things and the like are taboo. I realized I didnt know people all that well, as shown by the falling out between me and the longtime roommate? In what other culture would you keep that sort of thing a secret from a close friend?


I realized my views on the world in truth havent changed too much.

I know that this is a bit of a controversial subject, so I don't want to say too much, however, I'm assuming you are responding to what I posted a week or so ago about the church kids I knew who turned out to be gay. None of those who I mentioned are still in the LC.

I know of at least 2 older current LC members who are gay. They never publicized this, however, I would say that most who know them really well know that they are gay. One of these people actually lived with their partner and this was known among some LC saints. To the credit of the LC saints, no one ever judged them or tried to address the subject with them. Of course, this kind of attitude could vary widely among the different LC's. In fact, it definitely isn't representative of what W. Lee himself spoke (he probably wouldn't have tolerated it):

A Sodomite is a homosexual. Paul speaks of them in Romans 1:24 and 27. There are many Sodomites today and much sodomitical lust is expressed. Sodomites seem to have no spirit; they are like brutal animals.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Genesis, Message 52, Pg. 695

W. Lee called homosexuals "brutal animals". This is kind of talk sounds like it came straight from the Westboro Baptist Church playbook. Knowing the "official stance" of the LC in regards to homosexuality, I do find it interesting that there would be gay members who wouldn't mind staying in the LC. I would think that they wouldn't care for Lee's attitudes. It's hard to say. It's not a question I would ask them.

[awareness]

Unregistered, I'd really like to know more about you, and your life in the local church and afterwards.

I know plenty that have left, and gone on to many diverse ways afterwards.

I'm not sure why but I feel to share one of my up close observations, that, Jesus doesn't 'cure' sexual orientation; almost like it doesn't need to be cured.

It's the Bible that makes homosexuality an abomination. But that was written 2000/3000 years ago, during the Iron age, and late bronze age ... way before our advanced medical and scientific knowledge of today. Example: The boy possessed by a demon in Mark 9 reveals it was believed back then that Epilepsy was demon possession.

Therefore I don't think it's wise to trust the Bible on this sort of matter.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Jesus doesn't 'cure' sexual orientation; almost like it doesn't need to be cured.

I'm not sure that 'cure' is the right verb here. I don't think Jesus addressed the issue. But there's probably a lot of stuff Jesus didn't address. So maybe we shouldn't read too much into it, either way.

Certainly Paul addressed the issue, unequivocally. And the OT record is likewise clear. But as awareness says, this was in the days of animal sacrifice, human slavery, etc. Certainly the world has changed a lot. Even the past 15 years we have seen huge changes in attitudes, publicly.

The LC position, of unwavering fundamentalism (no sex outside of marriage, no homosexuality) has its attraction. I remember going in, and leaving my former "inclusive" church, and being relieved that someone had drawn the proverbial line in the sand and said "Go no further". The problem with an inclusive church is that everything becomes relative: "I'm ok, you're ok" is the norm. But at some point we have to draw a line. Going into a movie theater with a gun and blasting people is not ok. So there's a line. The fundamentalist church makes this formalized, and explicit, and my view of the "inclusive" church was that they tried to pretend that the line doesn't exist. Everybody's fine, everyone's ok. Do whatever makes you feel good. It's all good.

So it can be comforting to be in a situation where it's rigid, formalized, and explicit: "This is good; this isn't good." I know that initially I liked fundamentalism for that reason (among others). But the world has changed, as I said, and the fundamentalist position becomes increasingly challenged to remain attractive, relevant, and valid.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''

Last night, for no reason, two songs came to my mind. One was "He stopped loving her today" by George Jones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R2F9f2Cl6Y

Actually it's a song about faithfulness. The guy stopped loving his girl when he died. He pledged love until death and he kept his word. But when I was growing up, I was into Led Zeppelin and Hunter S. Thompson. My dad used to play this music in the living room so I remember it well. But I despised it, really - "Square".

The second song is "Another somebody done somebody wrong song" by B.J. Thomas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym_mJokfTQg

Not a particularly great song, but I remember it because it was on the radio a lot. Kinda sappy, though.

But both songs came to my mind last night, for some reason, and I bring them up here because they're part of culture, specifically my culture (my growing up, hearing them on the radio, etc). But they maybe aren't terribly relevant to the younger writers and readers of this forum.

Now to my points: first is that 30 or 40 years later I find comfort in hearing songs that I initially despised. Now I listen to my "daddy's music" and I like it, while Led Zeppelin usually sounds frantic, distorted, and unhappy. So my tastes have changed. But more specifically, I'm strangely drawn to the known and the familiar, even though I never liked it in the first place! I think our views on sexuality and sexual expression may be strongly colored by these kinds of early experiences. Sex is clearly a deep issue, and within us there's a matching, deep program: "This is how my daddy raised me" may have its good points, and its not so good points, and we may accept our daddy's view, or reject it, but either way it strongly shapes our ability to grasp at such a fundamental issue.

Secondly, the young people growing up today didn't get taught by my daddy. George Jones probably means nothing to them. So I should be wary of imposing my comfort zones on others, whatever my comfort zone is, today. It's mine and it's not yours.

[awareness]

Aron,

Concerning Paul.

This story is abbreviated:

I had a customer that was awful. He was always angry and screaming at his secretaries like they were dirt. He was a lawyer. I worked for many of them, and so got use to this kind of behavior (lawyers? what else can't you expect?). But him I just couldn't take, so I told him I wouldn't work for him any more and walked out.

About a year later I saw him on TV, crying, and admitting that he was gay and had A.I.D.S. I thought, that explains a lot about him.

A few months go by and he called me and told me he had a new office and asked if I'd wire his office and network his computers. I agreed.

While I was working I noticed a plaque on his wall of a date when he received Jesus as his savior. I remarked about it and his face lit up and he told me Jesus changed his life, and how he was a different person now. When he wasn't around I asked one of his secretaries if it was true and she said "yes, he's a completely different person."

So when he walked by I asked him, "Dennis, since you've met Jesus does that mean you've given up your gay life style?" He said, "No. I go to a gay church. I go to the Metropolitan Church." Well I'm liberal but not that liberal and it blew my good ol' fundamentalist mind that I grew up with.

As would have it my next customer was at a home of a retired old Florida cracker Bible thumping preacher. So I ran this lawyer past him.

And he blew my mind. He said, "Back then Paul didn't know anything about homosexuality and what causes it. We now know there's natural causes for it. And if God causes it he surely can't judge it."

That was a day when I went home after work with my mind completely blown; born again gays? A Bible inerrantist claiming Paul was wrong? My universe shifted at least one degree ... prolly two.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Aron,

Concerning Paul.

This story is abbreviated:

I had a customer that was awful. He was always angry and screaming at his secretaries like they were dirt. He was a lawyer. I worked for many of them, and so got use to this kind of behavior (lawyers? what else can't you expect?). But him I just couldn't take, so I told him I wouldn't work for him any more and walked out.

About a year later I saw him on TV, crying, and admitting that he was gay and had A.I.D.S. I thought, that explains a lot about him.

A few months go by and he called me and told me he had a new office and asked if I'd wire his office and network his computers. I agreed.

While I was working I noticed a plaque on his wall of a date when he received Jesus as his savior. I remarked about it and his face lit up and he told me Jesus changed his life, and how he was a different person now. When he wasn't around I asked one of his secretaries if it was true and she said "yes, he's a completely different person."

So when he walked by I asked him, "Dennis, since you've met Jesus does that mean you've given up your gay life style?" He said, "No. I go to a gay church. I go to the Metropolitan Church." Well I'm liberal but not that liberal and it blew my good ol' fundamentalist mind that I grew up with.

As would have it my next customer was at a home of a retired old Florida cracker Bible thumping preacher. So I ran this lawyer past him.

And he blew my mind. He said, "Back then Paul didn't know anything about homosexuality and what causes it. We now know there's natural causes for it. And if God causes it he surely can't judge it."

That was a day when I went home after work with my mind completely blown; born again gays? A Bible inerrantist claiming Paul was wrong? My universe shifted at least one degree ... prolly two.

Great post. When you consider how attitudes have changed over the years e.g. ending slavery, women's rights etc (at least in our country) whereas back in the days of the NT they did not have the ability to reflect back and see the science and the human freedoms that are possible in a society. They saw things through a rose colored glass (don't we all to some extent). When we are reading the NT if we do not consider the time context it was written in we miscalculate its meaning and intent. Of course the same problem occurs with other religions who try to apply what was written centuries ago into the current times. I think I have mentioned before that my wife and I went to a MCC church one time and I was amazed at the hymns and sermon were all about Jesus and the Bible. But on the other hand it was entirely a LGBT congregation with great music and enthusiasm. We have to continuously think outside the box.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

The LC position, of unwavering fundamentalism (no sex outside of marriage, no homosexuality) has its attraction.

No sex outside of marriage? Yeah right! At the minimum varying by locality. One in particular the Church in Bellevue had been very forgiving it seems or at least looking the other way.

[Intothewind]

I forgot to login, so I am the unregistered poster.

At the moment I would consider myself a functional atheist. I like naturalism and humanism.I think for the first time in my life I truly am unabashedly proud of my views(i remember crying in front of a 3rd geade teacher because i somehow got cornered into trying to explain why my family didnt celebrate halloween).

I do know of noted sciencey folk that have even compartmentalized their brains enough to accept very standard religion...I suspect anything of that sort id subscribe to in the future would be very free flow. The closest I can get to spirituality is awe, respect, and deep attempts to understand the natural world and our place in it.