Politics and the Church

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good point. But my dad considered himself a Southern Baptist Christian. Hating blacks wasn't against Southern Baptist Christianity. The Southern Baptist church was started in support of holding blacks as slaves.

Are Southern Baptists not Christians?

Yes, Southern Baptists are Christians, but the justification of slavery is not.

Yes there are verses in the Bible to people who are in slavery. All Nat Turner proved is that if they revolted it would result in twice as many getting killed and mistreated. Blessed are the meek because they will inherit the earth, that applies to those in slavery. It took 100 years but in the end the nation went down that road and came to an unbridgeable divide where both sides needed the "slaves", hence the North "freed" them. It took another 100 years to get meaningful civil rights legislation and voter rights. It then took another 50 years to get a Black president. In the grand scheme of Human history 250 years is like 6 hours of a single day.

People confuse verses that tell the individual to submit to the situation in which they are to justifying unrighteousness.

They also confuse a world 4,000 years ago that used slave labor (without an underlying racial bigotry) with today where we have replaced slave labor with machines and fossil fuel.

Slavery is not a Christian institution, nor is it a Biblical institution. The Bible instructs people who live in this world to live righteously and that includes treatment of slave labor thousands of years ago. The South's treatment was not righteous and required some kind of racial bigotry to force it on the people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So asking when Christianity became about group-hate is group-hating them? And being against group-hate is group-hate? Sounds like you support group-hate. If so, why?

But you don't "ask," rather you make regular application of group hate to all Christians, southern baptist or not, past and present.

This discussion was never about hate or group hate, but about fear. It was not me who made it about hate. This is a common liberal ploy. If I say that I am afraid of people who act suspiciously and cover their faces with hoodies or masks, then it gets interpreted as racist group hate. It's not hate, it's fear.

I remember one so-called public service commercial on TV. It pictured a white man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" Then it changed the picture to a black man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" I stood and protested, "NO! I have no problem with either of them!"

Then I went on to complain about how deceitful the message was. Why don't they show a public service announcement like this: Picture a black man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" Next show a white kid in a hoodie, hanging out at the mall, and ask "do you have a problem with him?"

This highlights the dishonesty of today's racial narrative.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

But that was 160 years ago. And history tells us that the Democrats in power, northern and southern, are the ones who kept slavery in place.

Shall I maintain the same bigoted attitudes towards all Catholics today for what the Pope did in 1487?

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But that was 160 years ago. And history tells us that the Democrats in power, northern and southern, are the ones who kept slavery in place.

Shall I maintain the same bigoted attitudes towards all Catholics today for what the Pope did in 1487?

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

Yes, true. I wouldn't paint all Catholics based on the sins of those who sit in Moses seat.

Yes, but apparently Awareness and others were raised in an environment where the Bible was presented as not being neutral.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did I do that? Never met his dad.

Perhaps the vestiges of group hate came from Mel Porter.

Good point. And perhaps that's why I resisted Mel. My dad made group-hate ugly.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Why wouldn't you have? But then Catholics have never seemed as serious about their religion as Southern Baptists, so I wouldn't know. My dad, and my mom, made it plain and out front. I couldn't miss it.

But it was because I saw the failures in the SBC that I was attracted to the local church all-in characteristics. They seemed to be more true. It took me time to discover the hypocrisy in the local church.

In the end they both failed me. And I guess I'm a little pissed off about it. Sorry if I'm taking it out on you guys. Y'all never done anything to me. Mea culpa.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But you don't "ask," rather you make regular application of group hate to all Christians, southern baptist or not, past and present.

This discussion was never about hate or group hate, but about fear. It was not me who made it about hate. This is a common liberal ploy. If I say that I am afraid of people who act suspiciously and cover their faces with hoodies or masks, then it gets interpreted as racist group hate. It's not hate, it's fear.

Very good point. And it's natural to fear those that differ from us. Those Arabs are so different from us. So we fear them. And if we're a Bible beliver we'll find Biblical justification for that fear.

And that's what has happened. The Bible has been used to support hate and fear. Is it the Bible's fault? Yes and no. The Bible came from people, living in very hard and scary times. Seems everybody was warring with somebody, in the Bible. And in the Bible even God claims to be a God of war (Exo 15:3).

And what about all those wars the Israelites had with various other tribes? Doesn't that kind of thinking sink into the Bible reader? In a sense we could claim that racists come to the Bible, but in another sense we could claim the Bible creates racism into the reader. Maybe it's both ways.

Still bro Ohio, as a Christian what do we have to fear?

I just don't think the New Man is gripped by fear and hate.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

That's a mischaracterization. The Bible regulates slavery, providing rules. But it doesn't forbid it anywhere, both Old and New.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, true. I wouldn't paint all Catholics based on the sins of those who sit in Moses seat.

Yes, but apparently Awareness and others were raised in an environment where the Bible was presented as not being neutral.

Right. Forming a Christian group in support of slavery, and using the Bible to back it up, is not neutral.

Using Ham is not neutral. Using Ishmael is not neutral.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right. Forming a Christian group in support of slavery, and using the Bible to back it up, is not neutral.

Using Ham is not neutral. Using Ishmael is not neutral.

And Satan appearing as an angel of light is not neutral.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

And Satan appearing as an angel of light is not neutral.

Here an angel of light, there an angel of light, everywhere an angel of light.

So where did that response come from? And what does it mean, and to what does it apply? What does a shape-shifting Satan have to do with our discussion (does Satan have a shape - can he dance on the head of a pin?)?

Inquiring minds want to know???

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Here an angel of light, there an angel of light, everywhere an angel of light.

So where did that response come from? And what does it mean, and to what does it apply? What does a shape-shifting Satan have to do with our discussion (does Satan have a shape - can he dance on the head of a pin?)?

Inquiring minds want to know???

Every single person has an agenda. The apostles had an agenda (though we refer to it as a calling, a mission), slave owners have an agenda, etc., etc.,

Just because someone uses a verse from the Bible to justify their position doesn't make it so, anymore than Satan using the Bible to tempt Jesus.

The expression of the Christian position is Jesus. This same Jesus made it very clear that He is the fulfillment of the OT, He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Trump quotes the Bible that God's love is made complete in us.

Hillary Clinton quotes the Bible "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Everyone and anyone can read the Bible, quote the Bible, use the Bible to justify their position. That doesn't make it true. And it certainly does mean that their position and agenda are "Biblical".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Every single person has an agenda. The apostles had an agenda (though we refer to it as a calling, a mission), slave owners have an agenda, etc., etc.,

Just because someone uses a verse from the Bible to justify their position doesn't make it so, anymore than Satan using the Bible to tempt Jesus.

The expression of the Christian position is Jesus. This same Jesus made it very clear that He is the fulfillment of the OT, He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Trump quotes the Bible that God's love is made complete in us.

Hillary Clinton quotes the Bible "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Everyone and anyone can read the Bible, quote the Bible, use the Bible to justify their position. That doesn't make it true. And it certainly does mean that their position and agenda are "Biblical".

Yes but many people suffered immensely because the Bible, that you believe is Gods' word, doesn't forbid slavery.

That should send a strong warning and signal that we shouldn't trust or use the Bible to support group-hate of any kind.

I'm with Jesus on this, according to the gospel we call Matthew:

Mat 22:36-40: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[awareness]

Bro Ohio has been hard on me for being hard on Christians and Jews but soft on Muslims.

But I can be hard on these Christians and Jews:

Christians And Jews Team Up To Help Muslims After Texas Mosque Fire
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...0af07cb6b8929?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes but many people suffered immensely because the Bible, that you believe is Gods' word, doesn't forbid slavery.

That should send a strong warning and signal that we shouldn't trust or use the Bible to support group-hate of any kind.

I'm with Jesus on this, according to the gospel we call Matthew:

Mat 22:36-40: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We did not have slavery because of the Bible. Egypt did not have slaves because of the Bible. Sumeria did not have slaves because of the Bible. The Bible is a book about slaves finding freedom from slavery.

The context was of slavery being the main economy of the day. However, unlike Egypt the Bible prohibited "institutionalized" slavery but with the slavery offered a path to freedom.

The Bible records slaves praying for deliverance, God hearing them and sending them Moses. He then performed a number of miracles to release them from the grip of Pharaoh culminating with the defeat of Pharaoh at the Red Sea. The Bible then records God commanding the Israelites to not take advantage of others remembering that "they also were slaves in Egypt".

You see the suffering that slaves go through, but what about those who are slaves of sin? Donald Trump has given us a window into the tortured lives of billionaires. Sometimes we forget about the pain and suffering that these billionaires go through but Jesus even came to save them as well.

[zeek]

A Pervert, a Con Artist and a Fascist walk into a bar.
The bartender says, "What'll it be Mr. President?"

[ZNPaaneah]

Hitler struck a chord with everyone who wanted to blame someone else for their failures and defeats. After WWI instead of reflecting on what they had done wrong, their mistakes, their errors, many wanted to blame someone else. Hitler fed this desire. In retrospect from our historical vantage point he is a puny, hateful man. But to those who were looking for permission to find a scapegoat Hitler was "charismatic", "spoke from the heart", "impassioned", with "strength of character". It all depends on the glasses you look at him with. What you thought about Hitler revealed what was in your own heart.

For all the comparisons between Trump and Hitler one needs to remember that Hitler's brand of hate only resonated with a very small number of people in Germany. He never had anything near to the tens of millions that are responding to Trump. To me that is a very big distinction. I find it difficult to believe that 40+ million would have the kind of hateful heart that Hitler had.

With Trump I feel the concern is "are we hearing what we want to hear"? Everyone wants more jobs, less chaos, more law and order, safe borders, no terrorist attacks and lower taxes. I was under the impression that the loss of jobs was due to globalization and massive technological change / advances. He is telling us that they are due to poorly negotiated trade deals. I hope he is right. At the very least I think the ability to negotiate trade deals is a very important skill in a President and we will see if he can deliver what he is boasting about.

"The truth is most of us discover where we are heading when we arrive" (Calvin and Hobbes)

[zeek]

Last night Trump said the time for trivial fights is over. That should leave him with a lot of free time on his hands.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Last night Trump said the time for trivial fights is over. That should leave him with a lot of free time on his hands.

I want to see how he does on rebuilding infrastructure, renegotiating trade deals, and foreign policy.

I think the privatization of education is a given, I have been preparing for it for about six years. I was stunned to hear that he is suggesting using the money for home schooling, even though I have homeschooled 3 kids for a several years each I think that is a terrible idea. Are people going to pull kids out of school so their parents can get an extra $10,000 per kid? What happens to the stereotypical welfare mother with five kids? Is she now going to pull kids out so she can get $50,000 a year? Is the trailer trash grandma now going to homeschool 10 grandkids so the hillbilly dynasty can make an extra 100k?

I also think his plan for success is to shut down all the regulating agencies to get money for his budget proposals. It seems like the fulfillment of the 7 fires prophecy, he is the one choosing cinders and ash road. So much for one bowl and one spoon. That was well and good while there was plenty, but now that Climate change is starting to cause climate refugees it is batton down the hatches, seal the borders, and "I only represent the US". Spoken like a true Wendigo.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I want to see how he does on rebuilding infrastructure, renegotiating trade deals, and foreign policy.

I think the privatization of education is a given, I have been preparing for it for about six years. I was stunned to hear that he is suggesting using the money for home schooling, even though I have homeschooled 3 kids for a several years each I think that is a terrible idea. Are people going to pull kids out of school so their parents can get an extra $10,000 per kid? What happens to the stereotypical welfare mother with five kids? Is she now going to pull kids out so she can get $50,000 a year? Is the trailer trash grandma now going to homeschool 10 grandkids so the hillbilly dynasty can make an extra 100k?

I also think his plan for success is to shut down all the regulating agencies to get money for his budget proposals. It seems like the fulfillment of the 7 fires prophecy, he is the one choosing cinders and ash road. So much for one bowl and one spoon. That was well and good while there was plenty, but now that Climate change is starting to cause climate refugees it is batton down the hatches, seal the borders, and "I only represent the US". Spoken like a true Wendigo.

DC Republicans were happy just to have Trump stay on teleprompter with a script that positively reframed his campaign rhetoric. The lowest point was his proposal of a new agency to regularly publish a list of all crimes committed by immigrants. Clearly Trump wants to ratchet up the hate. The announcement was met with audible groans.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We did not have slavery because of the Bible. Egypt did not have slaves because of the Bible. Sumeria did not have slaves because of the Bible. The Bible is a book about slaves finding freedom from slavery.

The context was of slavery being the main economy of the day. However, unlike Egypt the Bible prohibited "institutionalized" slavery but with the slavery offered a path to freedom.

The Bible records slaves praying for deliverance, God hearing them and sending them Moses. He then performed a number of miracles to release them from the grip of Pharaoh culminating with the defeat of Pharaoh at the Red Sea. The Bible then records God commanding the Israelites to not take advantage of others remembering that "they also were slaves in Egypt".

You see the suffering that slaves go through, but what about those who are slaves of sin? Donald Trump has given us a window into the tortured lives of billionaires. Sometimes we forget about the pain and suffering that these billionaires go through but Jesus even came to save them as well.

Of course slavery existed before one word of the Bible was written down. Moreover, the Bible was written in times when slavery was a commonly accepted practice. And yes the Bible regulates slavery. But it never calls it wrong. Why? Precisely because it was written during those times. So it's not right to attribute it to God, it was culturally determined.

I say this because we now see slavery as wrong, and God's morals and ethics are higher than ours, so He must see it as wrong too. If so, then the writers of the books of the Bible failed to pass on this moral high standard against slavery in their writings. Or maybe God became a lying spirit in the hands of the writers for reasons we don't know, and decided not to put an end to slavery. I guess God maybe works sufferings in mysterious ways.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Of course slavery existed before one word of the Bible was written down. Moreover, the Bible was written in times when slavery was a commonly accepted practice. And yes the Bible regulates slavery. But it never calls it wrong. Why? Precisely because it was written during those times. So it's not right to attribute it to God, it was culturally determined.

I say this because we now see slavery as wrong, and God's morals and ethics are higher than ours, so He must see it as wrong too. If so, then the writers of the books of the Bible failed to pass on this moral high standard against slavery in their writings. Or maybe God became a lying spirit in the hands of the writers for reasons we don't know, and decided not to put an end to slavery. I guess God maybe works sufferings in mysterious ways.

That was hysterical I almost thought you were serious. We now see slavery as wrong, that is why we stopped?! You are certainly kidding.

We now see it is cheaper to pay some kid in Indonesia to make our shoes at a minuscule cost without us being responsible for housing, feeding, and caring for him for the rest of his life. If he wants a raise no problem, we'll move the operation to Vietnam. When they want a raise we can go to Malaysia, etc., etc.

How are the labor practices in China any better than slavery? We just don't call it slavery, but it is.

We have replaced a whole lot of what slaves used to do with appliances, machines, electrical appliances and those run by fossil fuel. We never got rid of slavery because we thought it was morally wrong. We got rid of it when it was no longer economically advantageous. A washing machine, dryer, dishwasher are a whole lot cheaper than a slave.

No doubt there were many people who were bothered by it morally, perhaps even Lincoln, but that isn't what paid for the Civil war, nor is it the reason the North and South went to war.

Today in the US we have many slaves. Yes it may be technically illegal, but lets be real, slavery is still practiced around the world, and although in some forms it is technically "illegal" in many forms it is the standard operating procedure.

The Bible records real slaves being emancipated from one of the cruelest institutionalized slavery in human history. Revelation from the Bible helped our Civil Rights movement, India's emancipation from Britain, and even started in South Africa with Ghandi.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That was hysterical I almost thought you were serious. We now see slavery as wrong, that is why we stopped?! You are certainly kidding.

We now see it is cheaper to pay some kid in Indonesia to make our shoes at a minuscule cost without us being responsible for housing, feeding, and caring for him for the rest of his life. If he wants a raise no problem, we'll move the operation to Vietnam. When they want a raise we can go to Malaysia, etc., etc.

How are the labor practices in China any better than slavery? We just don't call it slavery, but it is.

We have replaced a whole lot of what slaves used to do with appliances, machines, electrical appliances and those run by fossil fuel. We never got rid of slavery because we thought it was morally wrong. We got rid of it when it was no longer economically advantageous. A washing machine, dryer, dishwasher are a whole lot cheaper than a slave.

No doubt there were many people who were bothered by it morally, perhaps even Lincoln, but that isn't what paid for the Civil war, nor is it the reason the North and South went to war.

Today in the US we have many slaves. Yes it may be technically illegal, but lets be real, slavery is still practiced around the world, and although in some forms it is technically "illegal" in many forms it is the standard operating procedure.

The Bible records real slaves being emancipated from one of the cruelest institutionalized slavery in human history. Revelation from the Bible helped our Civil Rights movement, India's emancipation from Britain, and even started in South Africa with Ghandi.

Maybe God is laughing ; and plays as loosey-goosey with the definition of slavery as you too.

By your definition anyone that is employed is a slave ; you, for example, are a slave to the school bd.

But when I think of slavery I think of buying and selling humans like they are livestock, and the Fugitive Slave Act, and the underground railroad ; humans held in captivity.

Even your example, of the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt (if that even really happened), was an example of slaves in captivity. They weren't paid employees, that could quit and walk away.

At any rate, I guess you are saying that slavery is just fine with God, and that's why the Bible doesn't forbid it, and therefore the Bible was directly inspired by God, without any cultural influences having any bearing whatsoever on the text.

Now that is laughable.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe God is laughing ; and plays as loosey-goosey with the definition of slavery as you too.

By your definition anyone that is employed is a slave ; you, for example, are a slave to the school bd.

But when I think of slavery I think of buying and selling humans like they are livestock, and the Fugitive Slave Act, and the underground railroad ; humans held in captivity.

Even your example, of the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt (if that even really happened), was an example of slaves in captivity. They weren't paid employees, that could quit and walk away.

At any rate, I guess you are saying that slavery is just fine with God, and that's why the Bible doesn't forbid it, and therefore the Bible was directly inspired by God, without any cultural influences having any bearing whatsoever on the text.

Now that is laughable.

According to the Bible they could walk away. People were sold into slavery to pay off debts, once the debt was paid they could walk away. People were taken as slaves in war, but once a certain period was over they could walk away.

Read the Jungle, those conditions in the meat packing plants were worse than slavery for most.

Sweatshops pay a rate that will not allow the person to escape poverty so they are essentially a slave until they get sick, in which case they don't work, they don't get paid and they don't have benefits. Also, they then lose their job. Unlike a slave who might get medical care and who had "a job for life".

I am not playing loosey goosey with the definition, I am using your definition. What I am saying is that the reason we stopped using slave labor is because it is more expensive than sweatshops. You have to buy, feed, and care for a slave for life even though 20 years of that time might not be profitable work. With a sweatshop they just pay for those who can work. You don't raise them as children prior to when they can work and you don't care for them when they are elderly. There are no health benefits and no vacation time. The average slave had it much better than the average sweatshop worker does today.

My point was that you think it was some kind of moral enlightenment that did away with slavery. It was simple economics and greed.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to the Bible they could walk away. People were sold into slavery to pay off debts, once the debt was paid they could walk away. People were taken as slaves in war, but once a certain period was over they could walk away.

Read the Jungle, those conditions in the meat packing plants were worse than slavery for most.

Sweatshops pay a rate that will not allow the person to escape poverty so they are essentially a slave until they get sick, in which case they don't work, they don't get paid and they don't have benefits. Also, they then lose their job. Unlike a slave who might get medical care and who had "a job for life".

I am not playing loosey goosey with the definition, I am using your definition. What I am saying is that the reason we stopped using slave labor is because it is more expensive than sweatshops. You have to buy, feed, and care for a slave for life even though 20 years of that time might not be profitable work. With a sweatshop they just pay for those who can work. You don't raise them as children prior to when they can work and you don't care for them when they are elderly. There are no health benefits and no vacation time. The average slave had it much better than the average sweatshop worker does today.

My point was that you think it was some kind of moral enlightenment that did away with slavery. It was simple economics and greed.

So, in your assessment, the US abolished slavery based on economics and greed. Got it. What about you? Do you think slavery is OK? Yes or no.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to the Bible they could walk away. People were sold into slavery to pay off debts, once the debt was paid they could walk away. People were taken as slaves in war, but once a certain period was over they could walk away.

Read the Jungle, those conditions in the meat packing plants were worse than slavery for most.

Sweatshops pay a rate that will not allow the person to escape poverty so they are essentially a slave until they get sick, in which case they don't work, they don't get paid and they don't have benefits. Also, they then lose their job. Unlike a slave who might get medical care and who had "a job for life".

I am not playing loosey goosey with the definition, I am using your definition. What I am saying is that the reason we stopped using slave labor is because it is more expensive than sweatshops. You have to buy, feed, and care for a slave for life even though 20 years of that time might not be profitable work. With a sweatshop they just pay for those who can work. You don't raise them as children prior to when they can work and you don't care for them when they are elderly. There are no health benefits and no vacation time. The average slave had it much better than the average sweatshop worker does today.

My point was that you think it was some kind of moral enlightenment that did away with slavery. It was simple economics and greed.

Okay, okay! I get it. The Bible equivocates on the meaning of slavery. And makes it hard to pin down.

The problem is that it never forbids it. If it had, the West, being of the Bible, wouldn't have participated in the slave trade. And even more important to me, my cradle religion wouldn't have had any Biblical ground to stand on in their support for slavery.

Then maybe the states wouldn't have been divided enough for a civil war to happen, and our first republican president wouldn't have killed the republic.

If only the Bible, Jesus, and followers thereafter, had forbidden slavery.

They didn't. ". . . the idea of human rights, that is, the notion that a human being has a set of inviolable rights simply on grounds of being human, began during the era of renaissance humanism in the early modern period."*

It took renaissance humanism, not the Bible, to recognize that slavery was/is wrong.

* Reference = "History of human rights" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_rights

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, in your assessment, the US abolished slavery based on economics and greed. Got it. What about you? Do you think slavery is OK? Yes or no.

I am responding to this on the new thread I started specifically about slavery in the Bible. I would prefer if you (or the moderator) move this question to that thread.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump's appeals to ultra-nationalism, his scapegoating of ethnic groups, his fear mongering to angry working-class voters and his presentation of himself as the strong man who can fix every problem [the man card] through the force of his will all have echoes of fascist political leaders of the past like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco.

Trump is like these men in the sense of his appeal to nationalism and building his campaign on problems rather than solutions. Most people focus on the terrible things these men did in hindsight, however at the time the masses followed them because they made big promises and blamed other people for their woes.

The tactic is the same, blame someone else (muslims, Hillary, China, the media, Obama etc), and get people to follow you by making big promises. Like Germany, people followed these dictators because they gave them renewed hope for a better country, a better life, better economy.

Trump is unlike these men in the sense that he is perhaps the first Commander in Chief who needs his hand held while walking down the stairs in a bath robe. He has no military experience nor committed any great acts of violence himself. Also, unlike Hitler he does not come from the "grass roots" movement he came to support. He cannot empathize with the people that voted for him or know what they are suffering unless he somehow relates it to his failed business or construction ventures.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

A racist reads a racist interpretation into a Bible verse. It's called "confirmation bias".

A liar who would wire tap his enemies reads a tyrannical interpretation into a news story he hears and assumes that the previous president wire tapped him without even realizing that as President he could confirm his suspicion without playing the fool for the whole world to see. It's called confirmation bias.

Does anyone know what is going on?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

A liar who would wire tap his enemies reads a tyrannical interpretation into a news story he hears and assumes that the previous president wire tapped him without even realizing that as President he could confirm his suspicion without playing the fool for the whole world to see. It's called confirmation bias.

Does anyone know what is going on?

Watch Hannity's interview with Mark Levin and Jay Sekulow.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Watch Hannity's interview with Mark Levin and Jay Sekulow.

I'll try to get to it tomorrow, it is 1 1/2 hours and it is too late for me tonight.

[ZNPaaneah]

President Trump must be held accountable for what he said concerning President Obama.

If he shrugs off these comments he will be an international joke, no credibility. This will cause irreparable damage to the office of the President if he is not held accountable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

President Trump must be held accountable for what he said concerning President Obama.

If he shrugs off these comments he will be an international joke, no credibility. This will cause irreparable damage to the office of the President if he is not held accountable.

Are you serious?

Have you seen the interview with former congressman Dennis Kucinich?

He btw was my mayor when I left Cleveland, and later was congressman for my family home, and whose policies I NEVER agreed with. Obviously NOT a Trump surrogate, and now a huge embarrassment for Obama and Deep State.

Two years after DK left congress, journalists played for him his own taped conversations which were illegally obtained under the Obama administration intelligence related to the pending attack on Libya to take out Gaddafi. Just unbelievable!

Where are your calls to hold Obama accountable? Where is your feigned outrage about "irreparable damage to the office of the President if Obama is not held accountable?"

Obviously Obama was not the one tapping wires and listening to conversations at Trump Tower during the presidential campaign. But he and his people knew! Someone directed them to eavesdrop. That's why he signed that executive order 17 days before leaving office essentially declassifying illegal recordings. That's why he twice applied to FISA court for Trump and Company.

Obviously no proof is available because all this covert political action is protected.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

Have you seen the interview with former congressman Dennis Kucinich?

He btw was my mayor when I left Cleveland, and later was congressman for my family home, and whose policies I NEVER agreed with. Obviously NOT a Trump surrogate, and now a huge embarrassment for Obama and Deep State.

Two years after DK left congress, journalists played for him his own taped conversations which were illegally obtained under the Obama administration intelligence related to the pending attack on Libya to take out Gaddafi. Just unbelievable!

Where are your calls to hold Obama accountable? Where is your feigned outrage about "irreparable damage to the office of the President if Obama is not held accountable?"

Obviously Obama was not the one tapping wires and listening to conversations at Trump Tower during the presidential campaign. But he and his people knew! Someone directed them to eavesdrop. That's why he signed that executive order 17 days before leaving office essentially declassifying illegal recordings. That's why he twice applied to FISA court for Trump and Company.

Obviously no proof is available because all this covert political action is protected.

President Trump is in charge of the most powerful intelligence agency on this planet. If there is evidence of Obama tapping his lines then he has access to it. If he doesn't have evidence he should never have said anything. You don't voice your suspicions when you are president. If it is absolutely necessary to put something out there you leak it through surrogates.

But if you, as President of the US, are going to accuse the President of the US of committing a felony, then yes, I am serious, you must be accountable.

Telling the US citizens that this is the case while at the same time pretending that you have no evidence that this is the case is reprehensible, it is childish, and it is an embarrassment to the US. What this does is destroy the credibility of the US president.

I am disgusted with the immature and irresponsible way in which these accusations have been made. It should have been done with the release of an investigation that was conducted at the orders of the president and that issued a report with the same conclusion. Tweeting about this when it is only hearsay, that is utterly shameful for a President. Giving everyone the stiff arm when they ask for the evidence, dancing around this, practicing all manner of deceit instead of answering requests for evidence honestly is shameful.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

President Trump is in charge of the most powerful intelligence agency on this planet.

This is quite naive.

JFK took on the intelligence community. How did it go for him?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is quite naive.

JFK took on the intelligence community. How did it go for him?

That's right, ZNP. Don't you realize we have one among us right here on Alt Views who KNOWS what is going on inside the DEEEP STATE? He can't tell us HOW he KNOWS because of course it's TOP SECRET INFORMATION that only he is privy to. So, DROP YOUR CONCEPTS. Don't try to figure out what is going on yourself. Just pay close attention to what he says. His political opinions aren't just opinions like the rest of us peons here. He has the inside track to WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is quite naive.

JFK took on the intelligence community. How did it go for him?

All the more reason not to make accusations that you can't confirm and prosecute. Who is really naive when you commit a high crime (slander and libel) that could lead to your being impeached.

Let's suppose for the sake of the argument that Obama did wire tap Trump, yet Trump is completely unable to prove it. This could result in Trump being impeached, adding insult to injury.

Now let's look closer at this idea that Trump was wire tapped but is unable to prove it. What would be the purpose of wire tapping Trump's campaign if you are not going to share that information with the DNC and Clinton to help their campaign. All of their emails have been hacked and leaked. Surely the tell tale evidence would be in those emails as they communicate with each other the information. Therefore all Trump needs to do is hire a few graduate students to go through the emails looking for evidence that they had advance knowledge of his campaigns inner discussions. Who is really being naive?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

That's right, ZNP. Don't you realize we have one among us right here on Alt Views who KNOWS what is going on inside the DEEEP STATE? He can't tell us HOW he KNOWS because of course it's TOP SECRET INFORMATION that only he is privy to. So, DROP YOUR CONCEPTS. Don't try to figure out what is going on yourself. Just pay close attention to what he says. His political opinions aren't just opinions like the rest of us peons here. He has the inside track to WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now let's look closer at this idea that Trump was wire tapped but is unable to prove it.

There's a huge difference between knowing a crime has been committed, and being able to prove it, (Remember O.J.?) especially when the perps are protected by both political and intelligence operatives who's very profession is dissembling information. Thinking about your comments about AE911, I can't believe you are so simplistic here. No President will ever come close to being impeached for saying what more than half the country already believes, and that all the facts are pointing towards.

Did you see Hannity's March 8, 2017 interview with Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer, a retired intelligence officer, and Bill Binney, a former NSA officer? Shaffer was privately told, apparently by former colleagues, that it was US officials which hacked the DNC. Our intelligence community has also long had the technical ability to leave Russian "fingerprints" on these cyber crimes. Classical frame up.

Any idea how powerful these guys are? Do you understand "false flags?" We already have members of Congress, both Democrat (Senator Jeanne Shaheen) and Republican (i.e. Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham) claiming what Russia did (actually done by US operatives framing Russia) was an act of war.

.................................................. ........................

Here's another source that shows how intel really works in the 21st century.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

Interesting. Should I now think more highly of zeek than I ought to think?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

Perhaps zeek only wants it to appear like his account was hacked by a 12 year old Russian girl, when actually his own artificial cyber intelligence directed the hack. One can only wonder.

[zeek]

In hell nobody laughs at themself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

In hell nobody laughs at themself.

I thought you disproved hell for lack of scientific evidence.

Isn't hell contrary to your progressive liberal value system?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now let's look closer at this idea that Trump was wire tapped but is unable to prove it.

Are you familiar with what happened to Cheryl Atkinson the CBS reporter who did a story on whistleblowers during the first Obama administration?

She discovered hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files. Eventually she had the DOJ (Department of Justice, under Eric Holder) Inspector General’s office sent investigators to look at her computers. Their "official" investigation concluded that her "backspace key was stuck." Yup, that will turn your computer on and off in the middle of the night every time.

For Trump to say that Obama wire-tapped Trump's communications, is like saying Putin invaded Ukraine. Did Putin really enter Ukraine? No, of course not, his people did.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you familiar with what happened to Cheryl Atkinson the CBS reporter who did a story on whistleblowers during the first Obama administration?

She discovered hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files. Eventually she had the DOJ (Department of Justice, under Eric Holder) Inspector General’s office sent investigators to look at her computers. Their "official" investigation concluded that her "backspace key was stuck." Yup, that will turn your computer on and off in the middle of the night every time.

For Trump to say that Obama wire-tapped Trump's communications, is like saying Putin invaded Ukraine. Did Putin really enter Ukraine? No, of course not, his people did.

If Trump is going to make this accusation it is pointless unless he is going to prove it. Now as President of the US with the ability to get the FBI, NSA, CIA etc to assist you in an investigation along with the resources that RNC and a billionaire have should be enough to prove your contention.

Making this accusation without proof is a crime (slander, libel) that could lead to impeachment. If Nixon can be forced to resign over watergate then falsely accusing someone of Watergate like crimes should also rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.

As I have already said, if a crime was committed it would have been used to assist Clinton in her campaign. Since all of those emails have been leaked they should be able to provide evidence of the Democrats getting inside information on the Trump campaign.

I have been carefully following this new administration from day 1 and I have seen much more evidence presented indicative of collusion between the Russians and Trump's campaign than I have seen concerning Obama wire tapping Trump. I also consider it ridiculous to think that Obama would violate so many laws in doing a "watergate" scandal without using the information to assist Clinton's campaign. If He did assist Clinton I think the smoking gun would have to be there in the emails. On the other hand if it turns out that Trump's campaign is in fact found to have colluded with the Russians I also want Trump to be charged with obstruction of justice with this baseless claim put forth as a smokescreen and distraction.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Making this accusation without proof is a crime (slander, libel) that could lead to impeachment.

Are you serious?

Then every politician and journalist needs to be locked up!

Just for starters.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have been carefully following this new administration from day 1 and I have seen much more evidence presented indicative of collusion between the Russians and Trump's campaign than I have seen concerning Obama wire tapping Trump.

So have I, and I have arrived at the opposite conclusion.

It just all depends where you get your news.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

Then every politician and journalist needs to be locked up!

Just for starters.


So have I, and I have arrived at the opposite conclusion.

It just all depends where you get your news.

Yes.

Do you remember when the 60 minutes interview with the Tobacco executive aired? Big Tobacco tried to smear him with a 500 pages of lies, misinformation, distortion, etc. Real journalists tracked down every source, verified every accusation and concluded that it was a smear campaign. Big Tobacco was trying to discredit this key witness before his testimony could be heard, instead they got caught in their lies, and I assume you know the rest.

Liars must be held accountable for every word. I am completely disgusted with Trump, Conway, Spicer and the rest of them trying to walk back what they said. Trump's words were very clear, an illegal surveillance (a la Watergate) at the order of Obama on Trump tower. Trying to spin what was said into anything else is a lie. For a president to do this is not only disgraceful but irresponsible and unbefitting the post. To make this claim and then not support it with evidence is childish and despicable.

The Wall Street Journal called the attack on Wigand as the "lowest form of smear campaign". This is what I see from Trump and his minions. I am not listening to a 3rd party interpret the quotes for me, I can hear it from their own mouths.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes.

Do you remember when the 60 minutes interview with the Tobacco executive aired? Big Tobacco tried to smear him with a 500 pages of lies, misinformation, distortion, etc. Real journalists tracked down every source, verified every accusation and concluded that it was a smear campaign. Big Tobacco was trying to discredit this key witness before his testimony could be heard, instead they got caught in their lies, and I assume you know the rest.

Liars must be held accountable for every word. I am completely disgusted with Trump, Conway, Spicer and the rest of them trying to walk back what they said. Trump's words were very clear, an illegal surveillance (a la Watergate) at the order of Obama on Trump tower. Trying to spin what was said into anything else is a lie. For a president to do this is not only disgraceful but irresponsible and unbefitting the post. To make this claim and then not support it with evidence is childish and despicable.

The Wall Street Journal called the attack on Wygand as the "lowest form of smear campaign". This is what I see from Trump and his minions. I am not listening to a 3rd party interpret the quotes for me, I can hear it from their own mouths.

Your example does not fit here. Wygand was an individual. Obama has an administration with millions of employees and contractors.

Can you prove that no one in the Obama administration tapped Trump's phones? Of course not, because we now know, via Snowden, that not just Trump's lines were tapped but yours and mine too! Not just metadata, but the whole conversation, sitting in cyber space ready to be mined for evil.

We know it, but can never prove it. But I have already provided plenty of evidence to prove my point. Unfortunately, you don't agree, but that's OK.

To be honest, I did not like Trump initially, and did not vote for him in the primary. To me he was the rude and crude school yard bully. The same goes for many of my friends and family. But the more the media hates on him, spewing their daily bias, spinning everything, the more I like the guy, and the more I like his decisions and his selection of people around him.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you disproved hell for lack of scientific evidence.

No, I think the lack of evidence falls on the Bible. It, not science, invented hell. Yet the Bible is so confusing on the matter that it's hard to draw indisputable conclusions about it. Maybe we need to discuss it on a different thread.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't hell contrary to your progressive liberal value system?

Now that's an interesting perspective. Which apparently means, liberals don't believe in hell but conservatives do. Why?

Is it so they can say, "Liberals go to hell?"

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you disproved hell for lack of scientific evidence.

Hell is an evocative symbol.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't hell contrary to your progressive liberal value system?

Eternal punishment does seem kind of pointless now that you mention it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files.

Microsoft does this day and night. World round. Face it, everyone is listening. Want to say something to The Donald, say it here. He's reading it right now. And if it's good he'll maybe twitter-twat about it (he admits to liking twats and grabbing them). Just a ready-made Candidate for evangelical Christians. What would Jesus think?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Microsoft does this day and night. World round. Face it, everyone is listening. Want to say something to The Donald, say it here. He's reading it right now. And if it's good he'll maybe twitter-twat about it (he admits to liking twats and grabbing them). Just a ready-made Candidate for evangelical Christians. What would Jesus think?

I thought it was you turning my computer on at night.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It just all depends where you get your news.

You mean from anywhere but Fox, right? Well maybe Breitbart too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

and the more I like his decisions and his selection of people around him.

Do you really like Bannon?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you really like Bannon?

I don't know him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Microsoft does this day and night. World round. Face it, everyone is listening. Want to say something to The Donald, say it here. He's reading it right now. And if it's good he'll maybe twitter-twat about it (he admits to liking twats and grabbing them). Just a ready-made Candidate for evangelical Christians. What would Jesus think?

Think you are talking about Bill Clinton and JFK.

And, btw, your disdain for Christians is getting the best of you.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you familiar with what happened to Cheryl Atkinson the CBS reporter who did a story on whistleblowers during the first Obama administration?

She discovered hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files. Eventually she had the DOJ (Department of Justice, under Eric Holder) Inspector General’s office sent investigators to look at her computers. Their "official" investigation concluded that her "backspace key was stuck." Yup, that will turn your computer on and off in the middle of the night every time.

For Trump to say that Obama wire-tapped Trump's communications, is like saying Putin invaded Ukraine. Did Putin really enter Ukraine? No, of course not, his people did.

Less than two days after Trump gave his well-received speech to Congress, the 24 hour news cycle was stolen by more leaks about his surrogates meeting with Russians. Breitbart came out with the Obama wire-tap story and he jumped on it to change the subject. Trump is very conscious of what's in the news cycle and managing it helped him win the campaign. He used this trick many times. Manipulating the media is his forte.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Less than two days after Trump gave his well-received speech to Congress, the 24 hour news cycle was stolen by more leaks about his surrogates meeting with Russians. Breitbart came out with the Obama wire-tap story and he jumped on it to change the subject. Trump is very conscious of what's in the news cycle and managing it helped him win the campaign. He used this trick many times. Manipulating the media is his forte.

All politicians manipulate the media. Obama, however, slept with them.

But what's that got to do with obama's people hacking reporters' computers?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your example does not fit here. Wygand was an individual. Obama has an administration with millions of employees and contractors.

This is the weak link in the theory. The CIA knows that they cannot keep a secret unless they "tie up loose ends", a euphemism for killing everyone who might know something. The deaths of so many key witnesses in the JFK assassination is the strongest piece of evidence that it was a conspiracy carried out by the CIA. The Mafia also has tried and failed to keep secrets. How is it that some low level tech guy who would know the truth and could sell it for $1 million keeps quiet? I can understand Obama and Clinton keeping quiet, but since they didn't tap the phones themselves there are others who know the truth. In the tobacco case the man who blew the whistle did so at great personal risk and financial loss. He risked going to prison, his kids ending up on welfare without health care when they were asthmatic and could die. In contrast a government employee who knows that Obama broke the law risks absolutely nothing, no way Trump allows them to be fired if they come forward, and they will score a very big payday. Doesn't get better than that, you get paid a million dollars for being a hero who protects democracy.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you prove that no one in the Obama administration tapped Trump's phones? Of course not, because we now know, via Snowden, that not just Trump's lines were tapped but yours and mine too! Not just metadata, but the whole conversation, sitting in cyber space ready to be mined for evil.

Again, you ignore my point about the DNC hacked emails. Who cares that the phones have been tapped, recorded and stored at NSA if no one has listened in? If they did listen in and yet did not forward any information gleaned to the Clinton campaign, again so what? Trump likened this to Watergate. Therefore all you need to prove that something did take place is the DNC emails during the Clinton campaign. These will prove they knew something from inside the Trump campaign. That would be the smoking gun. So yes, since those emails have all been hacked and leaked, Trump could easily prove his claim if it were true. Not only so but he has had 4 months. I imagine that those emails have already been poured over and dissected under a microscope by the RNC and the Trump campaign. Since he still has not given any evidence I have to assume there was not any evidence in those emails.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All politicians manipulate the media. Obama, however, slept with them.

But what's that got to do with obama's people hacking reporters' computers?

I'm talking about Trump's tweet:

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy! 7:02 AM - 4 Mar 2017.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm talking about Trump's tweet:

The thing that bothers me the most about that tweet is Trump's use of the word "sacred". I feel he has no business handling things that are "sacred" and the idea that his campaign was "sacred" is just a slap in the face to all things that truly are sacred.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The thing that bothers me the most about that tweet is Trump's use of the word "sacred". I feel he has no business handling things that are "sacred" and the idea that his campaign was "sacred" is just a slap in the face to all things that truly are sacred.

Nit-pickin' my friend?

The time is coming when democratic elections will be a sacred relic from the past. Look at Israel. The only democracy in the region, yet the UN is so biased against them. Unelected mooslim dictators slaughter millions and don't get the condemnations Israel gets for building houses.

I think Trump is right to refer to them as "sacred," not in a spiritual sense, but in a human one -- something revered as untouchable because of its great value to civilization. That's why rampant voter fraud by the Democratic party is so troubling. When I heard that one major city had 100% voter turnout, and 100% Democratic vote -- that by definition is voter fraud. It's no wonder that they see legitimate voter ID's as prohibitive, racist, xenophobic, etc.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't know him.

You don't know any of those you claim to like that Trump has gathered around him ... yet said you like them. And of course you know Bannon ; the founder of Breitbart ... and notorious white nationalist, and prolly supremacist ; the KKK love him. He's Trump's brain. These are the types Trump has gathered, and you said you like them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is the weak link in the theory. The CIA knows that they cannot keep a secret unless they "tie up loose ends", a euphemism for killing everyone who might know something. The deaths of so many key witnesses in the JFK assassination is the strongest piece of evidence that it was a conspiracy carried out by the CIA. The Mafia also has tried and failed to keep secrets. How is it that some low level tech guy who would know the truth and could sell it for $1 million keeps quiet? I can understand Obama and Clinton keeping quiet, but since they didn't tap the phones themselves there are others who know the truth. In the tobacco case the man who blew the whistle did so at great personal risk and financial loss. He risked going to prison, his kids ending up on welfare without health care when they were asthmatic and could die. In contrast a government employee who knows that Obama broke the law risks absolutely nothing, no way Trump allows them to be fired if they come forward, and they will score a very big payday. Doesn't get better than that, you get paid a million dollars for being a hero who protects democracy.

Snowden and Assange have blown the whistle and they are at great risk. No one is calling them heroes, except the common man. Both are now on the run, knowing each day will be their last. Million dollars means nothing to them.

No one in the intelligentcia simply "comes forward" to talk.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You don't know any of those you claim to like that Trump has gathered around him ... yet said you like them. And of course you know Bannon ; the founder of Breitbart ... and notorious white nationalist, and prolly supremacist ; the KKK love him. He's Trump's brain. These are the types Trump has gathered, and you said you like them.

Your epithets are simply nasty baseless names. Is he not innocent until proven guilty?

I prefer Bannon to Valerie Jarrett, the brains of the last prez. Let's talk about her. For starters: the father, maternal grandfather, and father-in-law of President Barack Obama's closest adviser, Valerie Jarrett, "were hardcore Communists under investigation by the U.S. government."

She is also Iranian. Do you see the connections to Obama's treaty with Iran?

Go read about her.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm talking about Trump's tweet:

Obama was one sick and bad guy!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Think you are talking about Bill Clinton and JFK.

Righto. But did more than 80% of evangelical's support them? Did Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham support them. like their Jr.'s?

Originally Posted by Ohio

And, btw, your disdain for Christians is getting the best of you.

Not as much as they got the best of me. You're tougher than me, or more stubborn. We both grew up in Christian organizations, and then went thru the local church, that failed us. That got to me, but not you. You're tougher or more stubborn, or maybe refuse to see how Christianity has failed you.

Or maybe I'm still infused with Witness Lee's disdain for Christianity (did you not get that memo?):

If so, let me remind you of how Christianity has failed you. He didn't call the Southern Baptist's demonic:

"Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless." - Witness Lee

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not as much as they got the best of me. You're tougher than me, or more stubborn. We both grew up in Christian organizations, and then went thru the local church, that failed us. That got to me, but not you. You're tougher or more stubborn, or maybe refuse to see how Christianity has failed you.

You are right, Christianity has "somewhat" failed me, but I must be fair to say that my childhood Parochial education was vastly superior to the alternative, and I have learned many precious truths in Christianity concerning my Savior. I have met many, many precious children of God over the years, one of which brought me to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, Who loves me and has never done me any wrong.

No matter how bad you think things were for you, someone else was far worse off. No matter how bad the Christian system around you had become, within that rotten shell was the loving Savior Jesus, Who loves you, and gave His life for your sins.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obama was one sick and bad guy!

...In your skewed opinion.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Snowden and Assange have blown the whistle and they are at great risk. No one is calling them heroes, except the common man. Both are now on the run, knowing each day will be their last. Million dollars means nothing to them.

No one in the intelligentcia simply "comes forward" to talk.

This doesn't make sense. The FBI director clearly undermined Clinton's campaign. Surely there are some in the Intelligence community that do not support Obama. Also, Obama is no longer in power.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right, Christianity has "somewhat" failed me, but I must be fair to say that my childhood Parochial education was vastly superior to the alternative, and I have learned many precious truths in Christianity concerning my Savior. I have met many, many precious children of God over the years, one of which brought me to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, Who loves me and has never done me any wrong.

No matter how bad you think things were for you, someone else was far worse off. No matter how bad the Christian system around you had become, within that rotten shell was the loving Savior Jesus, Who loves you, and gave His life for your sins.

Well amen to all of that. No matter what you think I think of Christianity, I do appreciate some of those I met there still today. In fact, most of my friends today are from the LC. And look at me now. If I didn't have the Bible and Christianity to find fault with, what would I do all day? I guess I have a love/hate relationship to them. I'm all kinds of screwed up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well amen to all of that. No matter what you think I think of Christianity, I do appreciate some of those I met there still today. In fact, most of my friends today are from the LC. And look at me now. If I didn't have the Bible and Christianity to find fault with, what would I do all day? I guess I have a love/hate relationship to them. I'm all kinds of screwed up.

It is tremendously valuable to us personally, emotionally, and psychologically (forget spiritually for now) to seek out and hold on to all the good things and people we have crossed paths with in our lives. One great counselor who helped me called this "treasure hunting." He did say that this was often hard to do, but the personal benefits, according to his research, always paid off.

For example, with me personally, I will always be thankful that the LC's helped me to speak publicly. I was a self-conscious kid with serious stage-fright when I first stood up in a meeting. But I was encouraged by others, and given lots of opportunity in small churches to practice. I will always treasure those times I was able to speak for the Lord publicly.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This doesn't make sense. The FBI director clearly undermined Clinton's campaign. Surely there are some in the Intelligence community that do not support Obama. Also, Obama is no longer in power.

Undermined her campaign? By acquitting Hillary before the DNC, he paved the road to victory for her. She should have been indicted, but today she walks the streets free with all the money she stole.

Meet your new mayor!

[zeek]

To the degree that Trump and his cabinet succeed enacting his agenda, the US will have a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

To the degree that Trump and his cabinet succeed enacting his agenda, the US will have a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires.

Spoken like a true socialist, one who thinks successful people are the source of all evil.

Far better to have successful men and women, in the peak of their career, already quite accomplished in industry, who desire to give back to their country, than it is to have power hungry community organizers, those who never had a job, who hate what America stands for, to use their positions to abuse their power, gather billions for themselves, attempt to destroy the character of our republic, and the constitution it was build on.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All politicians manipulate the media. Obama, however, slept with them.

But what's that got to do with obama's people hacking reporters' computers?

Oh boy. No wonder Obama was so lousy. He spent all his time hacking and tapping. I hear he can even hack and make it look like the Russians did it. He weren't no good at presidenting, but he sure could hack up a storm. Listen to Fox. They aren't fake news. haha

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh boy. No wonder Obama was so lousy. He spent all his time hacking and tapping. I hear he can even hack and make it look like the Russians did it. He weren't no good at presidenting, but he sure could hack up a storm. Listen to Fox. They aren't fake news. haha

Are you serious?

Did you read any of the stories?

You remind me of that LSM brother who preferred to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.

Time for you to leave the LC my friend!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Spoken like a true socialist, one who thinks successful people are the source of all evil.

Far better to have successful men and women, in the peak of their career, already quite accomplished in industry, who desire to give back to their country, than it is to have power hungry community organizers, those who never had a job, who hate what America stands for, to use their positions to abuse their power, gather billions for themselves, attempt to destroy the character of our republic, and the constitution it was build on.

...you missed the "for the billionaires" part. Are you a billionaire?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

...you missed the "for the billionaires" part. Are you a billionaire?

I did notice how all those Hollywood billionaires love Trump.

Not to mention how well Obama did for Wall St.

At the expense of Main St. of course.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

Did you read any of the stories?

You remind me of that LSM brother who preferred to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.

Time for you to leave the LC my friend!

I'm trying. How 'bout you?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I did notice how all those Hollywood billionaires love Trump.

Not to mention how well Obama did for Wall St.

At the expense of Main St. of course.

It was Wall St. that Broke Main St. Obama is gone, but not Wall St. In fact Wall St. is in the Trump admin. But keep blaming Obama, while letting Wall St. off the hook. So they can do it all again. They're blowing the bubble right now. But not to worry. Main St. can bail them out again.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It was Wall St. that Broke Main St. Obama is gone, but not Wall St. In fact Wall St. is in the Trump admin. But keep blaming Obama, while letting Wall St. off the hook. So they can do it all again. They're blowing the bubble right now. But not to worry. Main St. can bail them out again.

The world is a train running down train tracks that lead to armageddon. Capitalism is based on an un sustainable increase of 3% interest per year. China is racing along at a higher rate than that just to keep their head above water while their citizens choke to death on the pollution. Climate change is already resulting in tens of millions of refugees and is poised to increase exponentially. We have nuclear powers being run by complete psychos (N Korea as the prime example). Russia, the odd man out, is run by a ruthless KGB agent who has figured out how to derail the political process for his own delight. China sees itself as the superpower in Asia, a viewpoint that S Korea, Japan and the US don't share. US debt has become very limiting in our capability as a country. Naive or criminal negligence on the part of our elected officials has gutted our manufacturing which has contributed to our deficit. Undo oil influence has pushed us into a trillion dollar war in the Middle East, money that would have been far better spent on transitioning our energy supply to something sustainable. Ever since 2015 Wall Street has again been using CDO's, the same kind of highly leveraged bet that caused the first housing crisis.

Let's be realistic, neither Trump nor Clinton are the messiah. Neither one is responsible for the situation we are in and neither one is capable of getting us out of this situation. If you are looking for a savior His name is Jesus.

[zeek]

The Senate Intelligence Committee says they see no indication that President Obama ordered wiretapping or surveillance of Trump Tower. Trump says he learned Obama tapped his phones from the New York Times. Why is Trump standing by his slanderous allegation?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The world is a train running down train tracks that lead to armageddon. Capitalism is based on an un sustainable increase of 3% interest per year. China is racing along at a higher rate than that just to keep their head above water while their citizens choke to death on the pollution. Climate change is already resulting in tens of millions of refugees and is poised to increase exponentially. We have nuclear powers being run by complete psychos (N Korea as the prime example). Russia, the odd man out, is run by a ruthless KGB agent who has figured out how to derail the political process for his own delight. China sees itself as the superpower in Asia, a viewpoint that S Korea, Japan and the US don't share. US debt has become very limiting in our capability as a country. Naive or criminal negligence on the part of our elected officials has gutted our manufacturing which has contributed to our deficit. Undo oil influence has pushed us into a trillion dollar war in the Middle East, money that would have been far better spent on transitioning our energy supply to something sustainable. Ever since 2015 Wall Street has again been using CDO's, the same kind of highly leveraged bet that caused the first housing crisis.

Let's be realistic, neither Trump nor Clinton are the messiah. Neither one is responsible for the situation we are in and neither one is capable of getting us out of this situation. If you are looking for a savior His name is Jesus.

Good post bro. But Trump is not Jesus. He's Cyrus the great. I hear from prophecy buffs that he's moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and building the temple where no stone is on another. Then, according to 2 Thess, he will sit himself up in the temple as God, and then we'll all be raptured. Amen. Go Trump go. He's not going to drain the swamp. He'll bring the scorching of the whole earth, and the burning of all those nasty people out there.

They don't care if everybody burns, as long as they get their Jesus. That's why evangelicals went for Trump. That and the fact that he'll ban all Muslims. The courts are interfering with Armageddon.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good post bro. But Trump is not Jesus. He's Cyrus the great. I hear from prophecy buffs that he's moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and building the temple where no stone is on another. Then, according to 2 Thess, he will sit himself up in the temple as God, and then we'll all be raptured. Amen. Go Trump go. He's not going to drain the swamp. He'll bring the scorching of the whole earth, and the burning of all those nasty people out there.

They don't care if everybody burns, as long as they get their Jesus. That's why evangelicals went for Trump. That and the fact that he'll ban all Muslims. The courts are interfering with Armageddon.

Man what are you smoking?

Most working class Christians I know just wanted a Prez that would protect their jobs and their families, and stop giving freebies to illegal aliens.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Man what are you smoking?

I knew you'd love it. I wrote it just for you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Most working class Christians I know just wanted a Prez that would protect their jobs and their families, and stop giving freebies to illegal aliens.

You can't protect working class jobs. Self driving cars will eliminate taxi and commercial drivers (over the next 10 years).

3d printing will eliminate much of the manufacturing. They even recently used a 3d printer to make a house in less than a week. Most people are opting for ordering online rather than going to the mall, as a result clerks and cashiers will be put out of business.

Some Restaurants are experimenting with taking your order via a smartphone app, eliminating the waitress.

Soon you will log online, order what you want, it will be pulled from the shelf with a robot or printed out with a 3d printer, packed in a box and shipped by a robot, driven to your town with a self driving vehicle and flown to your house via a drone.

If you wanted to "protect jobs" you should have voted for the candidate that was offering free college tuition.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Man what are you smoking?

Most working class Christians I know just wanted a Prez that would protect their jobs and their families, and stop giving freebies to illegal aliens.

Ryan's health care plan punishes the very people Trump vowed to help. It would raise premiums by as much as 25 percent on people between 50 and 64, one core of the Trump voter base. It would hurt working-class voters whose incomes put them just above the Medicaid threshold.

The Trump budget contradicts the populism he campaigned on. It eliminates or cuts organizations like the Appalachian Regional Commission and the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative that are important to people from Tennessee and West Virginia up through Ohio and Michigan. It cuts job-training and road-building programs. It does almost nothing to help expand opportunity for the working class and almost everything to serve defense contractors and the national security state.

Scapegoating immigrants was Trump's fascist appeal to the baser instincts of the working class in order to get himself elected. He will continue to blame them and the liberals for the woes of working class folks. That should appeal to you very much.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Ryan's health care plan punishes the very people Trump vowed to help.

You aren't supposed to take him literally.

Originally Posted by zeek

It would raise premiums by as much as 25 percent on people between 50 and 64, one core of the Trump voter base. It would hurt working-class voters whose incomes put them just above the Medicaid threshold.

The Trump budget contradicts the populism he campaigned on.

The populism he campaigned on was very frank about taking advantage of people. Thousands of lawsuits, grabbing women by their privates, cheering on Russian hackers. Nothing that he is doing now contradicts what was plain for all to see about him.

Originally Posted by zeek

It eliminates or cuts organizations like the Appalachian Regional Commission and the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative that are important to people from Tennessee and West Virginia up through Ohio and Michigan. It cuts job-training and road-building programs. It does almost nothing to help expand opportunity for the working class and almost everything to serve defense contractors and the national security state.

That is ridiculous. He has already gotten a very big deal from the Chinese who have approved his using his name as a brand. His daughters business is soaring. There have been other deals approved as well. In fact he has expanded opportunities for the Trump brand worldwide.

Originally Posted by zeek

Scapegoating immigrants was Trump's fascist appeal to the baser instincts of the working class in order to get himself elected. He will continue to blame them and the liberals for the woes of working class folks. That should appeal to you very much.

Look, it is going to get very ugly, just look at what has happened to Britain since their Brexit. Therefore he is going to have to blame someone, news media and immigrants and don't forget teachers. That is the best way to privatize education and turn all those inner city kids into a profit making machine.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You aren't supposed to take him literally.
The populism he campaigned on was very frank about taking advantage of people. Thousands of lawsuits, grabbing women by their privates, cheering on Russian hackers. Nothing that he is doing now contradicts what was plain for all to see about him.
That is ridiculous. He has already gotten a very big deal from the Chinese who have approved his using his name as a brand. His daughters business is soaring. There have been other deals approved as well. In fact he has expanded opportunities for the Trump brand worldwide.
Look, it is going to get very ugly, just look at what has happened to Britain since their Brexit. Therefore he is going to have to blame someone, news media and immigrants and don't forget teachers. That is the best way to privatize education and turn all those inner city kids into a profit making machine.

We agree about Trump.

[awareness]

Trump supporters put your blinders on when reading the last three posts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump supporters put your blinders on when reading the last three posts.

Please say something accurate and intelligent so I can respond to it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Please say something accurate and intelligent so I can respond to it.

I'm doing my darnedest ... to hold down the normal emotional & spiritual strain, and Christian cognitive dissonance, caused by involvement with politics.

After all, this is the Politics and the Church thread. Politics is not allowed to interfere in religious matters, so our constitution dictates. But really, should the church interlope into politics? Is that what Jesus would advise his church to do? Methinks politics is too dirty for Jesus.

Is this intelligent enough for you? or is it not accurate enough to warrant a response?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You can't protect working class jobs. Self driving cars will eliminate taxi and commercial drivers (over the next 10 years).

3d printing will eliminate much of the manufacturing. They even recently used a 3d printer to make a house in less than a week. Most people are opting for ordering online rather than going to the mall, as a result clerks and cashiers will be put out of business.

Some Restaurants are experimenting with taking your order via a smartphone app, eliminating the waitress.

Soon you will log online, order what you want, it will be pulled from the shelf with a robot or printed out with a 3d printer, packed in a box and shipped by a robot, driven to your town with a self driving vehicle and flown to your house via a drone.

If you wanted to "protect jobs" you should have voted for the candidate that was offering free college tuition.

That's right, it's not the Chinese to be blamed for taking American jobs - it's Silicon Valley!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's right, it's not the Chinese to be blamed for taking American jobs - it's Silicon Valley!

Well I don't know about that. You can't blame corporations for cutting costs. They hold strictly to the bottom line. Americans can't work for 3 dollars a day, or even an hour.

And even before the WWW, or Silicon Valley, computers said to be made in America, were put together with Chinese parts inside.

Cheap labor is cheap labor. But yes, I guess you can say Apple is part of Silicon Valley.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm doing my darnedest ... to hold down the normal emotional & spiritual strain, and Christian cognitive dissonance, caused by involvement with politics.

After all, this is the Politics and the Church thread. Politics is not allowed to interfere in religious matters, so our constitution dictates. But really, should the church interlope into politics? Is that what Jesus would advise his church to do? Methinks politics is too dirty for Jesus.

Is this intelligent enough for you? or is it not accurate enough to warrant a response?

That is absurd. The Lord told us not to leave the world, but rather to be in the world but not of the world. Therefore you could definitely be fully involved in politics, but not "dirty" politics.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I don't know about that. You can't blame corporations for cutting costs. They hold strictly to the bottom line. Americans can't work for 3 dollars a day, or even an hour.

And even before the WWW, or Silicon Valley, computers said to be made in America, were put together with Chinese parts inside.

Cheap labor is cheap labor. But yes, I guess you can say Apple is part of Silicon Valley.

Why would anyone who has a choice want to be involved in "cheap labor". I get it as an opportunity for poor and undeveloped nations to climb their way out of poverty, but if we are replacing menial labor with skilled labor then that is not only a good thing but the way of progress.

The Washing machine, dishwasher, refrigerator, and stove have all made the job of "homemaking" much simpler, allowing women to work in the workforce. Yes, these appliances did "take away jobs from women" but open your eyes, that opened the door for better jobs.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I don't know about that. You can't blame corporations for cutting costs. They hold strictly to the bottom line. Americans can't work for 3 dollars a day, or even an hour.

And even before the WWW, or Silicon Valley, computers said to be made in America, were put together with Chinese parts inside.

Cheap labor is cheap labor. But yes, I guess you can say Apple is part of Silicon Valley.

The big picture is this. The American worker is not really competing against the Chinese worker doing the same job for $2 an hour. They are competing against the (silicon valley) technology which the Chinese worker is producing (for the Americans), which will replace them and 50 of their co-workers.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why would anyone who has a choice want to be involved in "cheap labor". I get it as an opportunity for poor and undeveloped nations to climb their way out of poverty, but if we are replacing menial labor with skilled labor then that is not only a good thing but the way of progress.

The Washing machine, dishwasher, refrigerator, and stove have all made the job of "homemaking" much simpler, allowing women to work in the workforce. Yes, these appliances did "take away jobs from women" but open your eyes, that opened the door for better jobs.

Before the washing machine etc, women did not have to work in the workforce. A one person income was sufficient. I think some women would prefer to stay at home and raise children then be forced to work for a living, in any job.

Yes the jobs that machines replace can open the door for better jobs however with every machine comes a net loss in the number of jobs available. It is not a one machine to one person ratio. Machines can do it much faster and better.

Also, some might argue that replacing a physical job with a sitting behind a desk job is not a better job (if you are a physically active person, that is, and overall computer work is not good for health).

That is why companies now can run with only 10 staff whereas 20 years ago they needed 100 staff. Better jobs can result but also fewer jobs. A job which used to take 10 people to do, can be replaced by 1 machine and 1 machine supervisor/operator. So there is a net loss in the number of jobs available. At the same time, with population growth, there is more people who need jobs. So less jobs available and more people who need them means more unemployment.

It is not just machines part of this problem but also software. Better software can replace jobs that people had to do by hand. The job of the person who would transcribe interviews and notes etc has been replaced by automatic speech to text software and things like this.

Extrapolate to the future when machines will do everything and everyone will need to depend upon a minimum wage. There will be lots of people with not much to do. So governments will need to pay everyone a base salary whether they work or not, so that people can survive. They tried this idea already in some country in Europe I think.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The big picture is this. The American worker is not really competing against the Chinese worker doing the same job for $2 an hour. They are competing against the (silicon valley) technology which the Chinese worker is producing (for the Americans), which will replace them and 50 of their co-workers.

It will only hurt for awhile. Then we can live a life of leisure. We'll live off welfare, and tax the robots to pay for it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Before the washing machine etc, women did not have to work in the workforce. A one person income was sufficient. I think some women would prefer to stay at home and raise children then be forced to work for a living, in any job.

A woman who is married does not need to work in the workforce instead of raising a family. One child in day care runs about $500 a month, which means the first $750 the woman makes merely goes to pay someone else to raise her one kid, $1500 if she has two. A cell phone contract runs about $50 a month at the least, and cable TV is about $150 (two things that were not available to the pre washing machine women). So then, drop those two luxuries and the first $1,050 the woman makes each month would be eliminated if she stayed home with 1 child, $1800 if she has two. In addition if you are working in the workforce you need transportation, assume that is an extra $100 a month, you need a bigger budget for your wardrobe, another $100 a month (dry cleaning, etc) and you will probably spend more on breakfast and lunch since you don't have the time to make it (juggling a job, family and day care), another $200. All in all the first $1,500 a woman makes a month merely pays for her extra expenses if she has 1 child, $2300 if she has two. Personally, I think this is extremely conservative. I would therefore argue that a woman making less than $36,000 a year is not working to help support her family, she is doing it solely because she would rather work than be at home raising the kids. The problem is that as people make more, they also spend more on each of those items I mentioned. Look carefully at the budget, it is very possible that the woman with two kids making $51,000 a year, net after taxes is $34,000 a year, is spending much closer to $3,000 a month on her extra expenses. If so, her working is her choice, not a necessity. If you double it and say she is making $100,000 a year, then her taxes will probably be a third, leaving her with $66,000 a year. That works out to $5,500 a month. But in this case you can be sure she is paying more than $500 a month per child for child care, she has the full phone plan of $100 a month or more, and you can double her food and clothing budget as well. Also, how many women making $100,000 a year take the bus to work? Between car payments, insurance, gas and oil she has raised her transportation budget from $100 a month to $500 a month. She is probably spending $4500 a month to take care of those kids and she is probably hiring someone to clean house once a month. So then once a woman is making $100,000 a year she is probably taking home $500 a month for the family, $6,000 a year, at the most. Except, when she pushed the family into a higher tax bracket that included her husband as well. Assuming he also makes $100,000 a year he is now paying an extra $8,000 a year in taxes. Oops, still not making a dime to help support the family. A woman in a marriage with a husband that has an equally valuable job does not need to work to support the family.

The reason married women work in the workforce is because the ground has been cursed, man has to work by the sweat of his brow for his sin. When some women entered the workforce married women were afraid that their husbands would leave the frumpy housewife with two kids for the secretary, so they were afraid, shipped kids off to day care, went to work and spent their paychecks on clothes, cars and hair salon. In addition to that you have a bunch of broken families, single mothers, again a curse as a result of sin. Abortion (close to 100 million in the US since legalization) is not due to rape or incest. It is due to women who want to advance their career and feel a child at this point is inconvenient. It is the real "inconvenient truth".

Who suffers? The kids. Just as the Bible says, God will visit the sins of the fathers on the children. It is well documented that a healthy diet is much better for a developing child than a high carb junk food diet the kid is going to get with the working mother juggling family, career and day care. It is also well documented that children raised in the home by the mother are much better developed psychologically. These are obviously averages with the worst nightmare for a mother being worse than the best day care, but let's be real, the worst nightmare for daycare is pretty horrific.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It will only hurt for awhile. Then we can live a life of leisure. We'll live off welfare, and tax the robots to pay for it.

Life is like riding a bicycle, the minute you stop pedaling you fall over.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you really like Bannon?

You got me thinking, so I read this article about Bannon by Bloomberg News couple years ago.

What it really explained to me was why crooked Hillary lost.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You got me thinking, so I read this article about Bannon by Bloomberg News couple years ago.

What it really explained to me was why crooked Hillary lost.

Hillary lost because a lot of people hated her, including me.

But you didn't answer my question. Do you really like Bannon?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hillary lost because a lot of people hated her, including me.

But you didn't answer my question. Do you really like Bannon?

What a weird question. And then you ask me it twice on a forum. What's up with that? So what ... I read an article about him ... I read one about Valerie Jarrett too, and I like her like a colonoscopy.

I mean you seem to have issues with me even liking the Bible.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Life is like riding a bicycle, the minute you stop pedaling you fall over.

You have to learn how to coast. Same goes for driving cars.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have to learn how to coast. Same goes for driving cars.

Just don't make a sharp turn in gravel. You might break something.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just don't make a sharp turn in gravel. You might break something.

Good advice.

[awareness]

Neil deGrasse Tyson (tweet):
"The very best way to support and feed your delusions: Surround yourself with people whose world views match yours exactly."

Sounds like the local church to me ... and a lot of other cults too ... and Trump & Co.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Neil deGrasse Tyson (tweet):
"The very best way to support and feed your delusions: Surround yourself with people whose world views match yours exactly."

Sounds like the local church to me ... and a lot of other cults too ... and Trump & Co.

Sounds like the "safe space" progressive liberal snowflakes demand.

Since I am the only conservative here, it sure doesn't apply to me.

Can't apply to Trump since the entire media is against him.

Anyways, I been thinking about giving up something for Lent. Perhaps Alt-Views would be perfect thing to give up, more difficult than sweets. See you later.

[Evangelical]

Trump is building his reputation around the world as the "Liar in Chief", particularly with his nonsense about wiretapping and Germany "owing NATO". Whatever credibility he had (if any) when coming to power, is being eroded away with every tweet.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just don't make a sharp turn in gravel. You might break something.

I came miraculously close to being killed that way.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like the "safe space" progressive liberal snowflakes demand.

Since I am the only conservative here, it sure doesn't apply to me.

Can't apply to Trump since the entire media is against him.

Anyways, I been thinking about giving up something for Lent. Perhaps Alt-Views would be perfect thing to give up, more difficult than sweets. See you later.

So I guess we aren't those that support your world view and you're running to surround yourself with those that hold your world view? Just wondering???

[awareness]

I'm sad that bro Ohio is leaving AltV's. But then I'm a mugwump, and it's hard for me to surround myself with other mugwumps that hold my world view.

But that allows me to love those that don't hold my world view, and I like to surround myself with those that don't hold my world view.

I guess I don't get it. Jesus said love your neighbor and even your enemies. But Christians, typically but not always conservative, can't love those that don't hold their world view. Why? Aren't they followers of Jesus first an foremost? I guess not.

So I repeat. Politics is too dirty for Jesus.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like the "safe space" progressive liberal snowflakes demand.

Since I am the only conservative here, it sure doesn't apply to me.

Can't apply to Trump since the entire media is against him.

Anyways, I been thinking about giving up something for Lent. Perhaps Alt-Views would be perfect thing to give up, more difficult than sweets. See you later.

But for the irony, this would be a classic sour-grapes rationalization.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm sad that bro Ohio is leaving AltV's. But then I'm a mugwump, and it's hard for me to surround myself with other mugwumps that hold my world view.

But that allows me to love those that don't hold my world view, and I like to surround myself with those that don't hold my world view.

I guess I don't get it. Jesus said love your neighbor and even your enemies. But Christians, typically but not always conservative, can't love those that don't hold their world view. Why? Aren't they followers of Jesus first an foremost? I guess not.

So I repeat. Politics is too dirty for Jesus.

So after quoting Jesus own words that show that Politics is not something Jesus would avoid, you decide to just repeat your assertion without any rebuttal or submission of evidence. Are you sure that you and Trump don't agree? You seem very similar.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So after quoting Jesus own words that show that Politics is not something Jesus would avoid, you decide to just repeat your assertion without any rebuttal or submission of evidence. Are you sure that you and Trump don't agree? You seem very similar.

Lol ... but without the overblown narcissistic ego. Me and Trump. Two peas in a pod ... haha.

I remember trying a few times to get you to come back to LCD. Now it's your turn to call bro Ohio back to AltVs.

[Evangelical]

As Ohio goes to celebrate the Feast of Tammuz, from the Catholic point of view giving up things for Lent is supposed to replicate Jesus's 40 days in the desert being tempted by Satan. So there is precedent for one staying in the "desert" of Alt. views. to be "tempted by Satan" to deny Trump, God's chosen President.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Lol ... but without the overblown narcissistic ego. Me and Trump. Two peas in a pod ... haha.

I remember trying a few times to get you to come back to LCD. Now it's your turn to call bro Ohio back to AltVs.

Maybe if his posts are not referred to as "delusions" but given the respect he has earned he would take my call.

[zeek]

On Monday, James Comey, Director of the FBI revealed that since July 2016 the Trump administration has been under investigation for ties to Russia. Why didn't he reveal that in October when he revealed that the FBI was resuming investigation of Hilary Clinton's email server?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

On Monday, James Comey, Director of the FBI revealed that since July 2016 the Trump administration has been under investigation for ties to Russia. Why didn't he reveal that in October when he revealed that the FBI was resuming investigation of Hilary Clinton's email server?

You can't reveal that, it would influence the election.

Trump has told you repeatedly the system is rigged.

Does anybody even look at this from his point of view? He was bankrupt, couldn't get a loan so he went to the only place where he could get the money to save his business, Russian loan sharks. He got in bed with them literally, and they have it on video tape. The poor guy is trapped by these Russian mobsters. He can't see them in the Whitehouse, can't talk to them on the phone, the only way to communicate is on the golf course, and after how he condemned others for doing just that. He sent Spicer out with the upside down flag to let us know and does anyone care? No, too busy making jokes and insults.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is why the Bible shouldn't guide our politics:

Oklahoma State Rep says rape and incest are the ‘will of God’ in abortion bill hearing
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/watc...-bill-hearing/

What does this have to do with the Bible? The problem is that so few people know the Bible that they will swallow this garbage. It is very clear to me that the Bible does not guide his politics and that is the problem.

The most despicable thing about this story is that no one stood up to refute this allegation using the Bible. Awareness is living in la la land. References to religion, culture and the Bible cannot be outlawed or forbidden. That would be censorship of the worst kind. He would respond to one idiot by turning the US into a censorship of the most draconian kind. Say goodbye to the first amendment, this is not freedom or religion, it is outlawing all references to religion. It seems Awareness is getting his inspiration from Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Stalin. What is next, pushing people out of windows who don't comply to your censorship a la Putin? Therefore, just like refuting a trump tweet, people in politics need to know the Bible well enough to hold this guy accountable and shut him down.

[zeek]

Big Winner Trump loses again.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thoma...ed-gop-failure

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Big Winner Trump loses again.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thoma...ed-gop-failure

"We will have so much winning if I get elected that you may get bored with the winning," Trump

[Evangelical]

Spends much of his time playing golf:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7650166.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Spends much of his time playing golf:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7650166.html

What choice does he have? He is being investigated by the FBI for treason, how can he consult with the members of his staff, his campaign, and the Russians they have worked with? They can't use the phone, can't meet in the Whitehouse, etc. The only place they can go and expect at least a decent chance of not being taped and recorded is the golf course. Probably the only people he can trust to carry messages are family members. So the sad thing is that the S.S. Trump is not just him, he'll probably take a good number of others including family members with him.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"We will have so much winning if I get elected that you may get bored with the winning," Trump

Winning for who?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Winning for who?

I think at this point I have to agree with Trump. I do not think he has "won" on a single point, although the final judgement has yet to come down I think on numerous points we are seeing him lose, lose, lose. Which of course means that the American people are winning, democracy is winning and the free press is winning. We are winning so much it is becoming boring.

But even more stunning I am growing bored of this. At first his rants were riveting TV, now they are becoming more and more obviously the delusions of a pitiful embarrassment to both the US and his family. He is now going after Paul Ryan, is there anyone left in the Republican party he is not going after? He is clueless when it comes to consensus and coalitions. What happens when they have to vote on impeachment, will he have any friends at all? Like he said this last vote has taught us about loyalty. He has none.

So I am not enjoying this, it is like an NFL team beating up on a sub par HS team with the "star quarterback" who is nothing but a loudmouth egotistical jerk.

This loss on healthcare is truly stunning. He doesn't want to call it Trump care, or Ryancare, or Republicancare, so I guess "I don't care" is the best name for it. That was basically his response. Sure they were all elected based on this one issue, and sure the Republicans have the majority and should be able to pass something based solely on Republican votes. They are all trumpeting the fact that Obamacare is "blowing up". They are the ones in power. Yet they do not seem to care. They did this prior to the budget, how hard would it have been to negotiate with those against the health care by offering something in the budget?

But again, he is right. It is boring watching someone who is truly incompetent. What is interesting is watching a genius at work or a master of their craft. In the collective wisdom of the people they have put someone completely incompetent in power, like pouring sugar into the gas tank of the car. This is what happens when the government is overrun by lobbyists and no longer cares about the people, the best thing to do is junk the car so it doesn't run at all.

[zeek]

Yes Trump has risen to a job which is beyond his level of competence. But, can anything prevent him from having his Reichstag fire?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Yes Trump has risen to a job which is beyond his level of competence. But, can anything prevent him from having his Reichstag fire?

The FBI, the CIA, the Media, the Democrats, and of course the Republicans like McCain, Ryan, etc.

Trump does not compare very well with Hitler, the best comparison to Hitler today is Putin. Taking the Ukraine can be viewed as Hitler rolling into Austria. Coming into the fray in Syria, maybe Poland. Putin has taken a country devastated by the cold war, economic ruin, headed by a buffoon, and completely turned it around so that they have become very nationalistic and very scary. I would not want to be Eastern Europe today.

I think a better analogy for Trump is Neville Chamberlain.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The FBI, the CIA, the Media, the Democrats, and of course the Republicans like McCain, Ryan, etc.

Trump does not compare very well with Hitler, the best comparison to Hitler today is Putin. Taking the Ukraine can be viewed as Hitler rolling into Austria. Coming into the fray in Syria, maybe Poland. Putin has taken a country devastated by the cold war, economic ruin, headed by a buffoon, and completely turned it around so that they have become very nationalistic and very scary. I would not want to be Eastern Europe today.

I think a better analogy for Trump is Neville Chamberlain.

George W. Bush had his Reichstag Fire. It was called 9/11. After that, his popularity rose empowering him to curtail our civil liberties with the Patriot Act to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and to get reelected. The so-called "balance of powers" of Congress, the Judiciary, and the media that you cited didn't prevent that. A major terrorist event could have a similar effect for Trump. So, I expect to see a similar event happen for Trump. I hope I'm wrong.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

A major terrorist event could have a similar effect for Trump. So, I expect to see a similar event happen for Trump. I hope I'm wrong.

Trump needs it and has the wherewithal to create it. I hope not, but wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

George W. Bush had his Reichstag Fire. It was called 9/11. After that, his popularity rose empowering him to curtail our civil liberties with the Patriot Act to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and to get reelected. The so-called "balance of powers" of Congress, the Judiciary, and the media that you cited didn't prevent that. A major terrorist event could have a similar effect for Trump. So, I expect to see a similar event happen for Trump. I hope I'm wrong.

Are you claiming that George Bush was the perpetrator of 911? Because the way I understand the Reichstag fire is that the Nazi's were the perpetrators, blamed the communists, and used the even to then seize power in Germany. We can certainly see George Bush using 911 to blame Iraq, and then use that to seize power through the Patriot act. But are you saying that George Bush somehow manipulated the death of thousands of Americans?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump needs it and has the wherewithal to create it. I hope not, but wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

I would be very surprised if the FBI and CIA and NSA just "accepted" a terrorist attack without careful investigation. Trump seems to be exceedingly isolated without any allies. Quite a few of the major leaders in the Republican party are either attacking him outright or calling for a fair, independent investigation that "goes where it goes".

He has abysmally low popularity ratings.

The only ally he had, Paul Ryan, he is now throwing under the bus.

The conservatives have rejected him.

Who has Trump not alienated?

He has acted like someone completely incompetent. This is very different from Hitler who was underestimated. By comparison Trump is overestimated. We have a crucial superpower being led by a complete incompetent at a time when both Russia and China are unnervingly scary and making very aggressive moves. Trump is our chump, he is our Neville Chamberlain. Will North Korea, or Pakistan or ISIS be the trigger that sets off the crisis? Take your pick, the world is soon going to realize we have a power vacuum in the US and they will fill that vacuum.

[ZNPaaneah]

Wow, I was not aware that this was treasonous. Today I mixed mayo and ketchup together on a sandwich. It wasn't technically Russian dressing, but is it treasonous? I don't know? Should we ask Shawn Spicer? Will he yell at us? Has anyone seen anything like this before?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you claiming that George Bush was the perpetrator of 911? Because the way I understand the Reichstag fire is that the Nazi's were the perpetrators, blamed the communists, and used the even to then seize power in Germany. We can certainly see George Bush using 911 to blame Iraq, and then use that to seize power through the Patriot act. But are you saying that George Bush somehow manipulated the death of thousands of Americans?

It doesn't matter if Bush perpetrated 9/11 or not My point is that it had a salutary effect on his presidency even though it happened on his watch.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

It doesn't matter if Bush perpetrated 9/11 or not My point is that it had a salutary effect on his presidency even though it happened on his watch.

Seriously? Lots of events will have a "beneficial" effect on a presidency, Iranians releasing hostages for Reagan, Rise in employment for Trump (based on Obama's policies).

The Reichstag fire is a prime example of a "false flag" event. That makes it special, unique. Hitler didn't benefit as a result of coincidence but as a result of deceit, manipulation and evil.

Comparing 911 to the Reichstag fire will obviously be interpreted by many as you saying they are both false flag events. If you are not saying that then it definitely matters, it is clearly going to cause confusion and misunderstanding.

There are many, myself included, who feel that 911 was a false flag event. If there wasn't any suggestion that 911 was a false flag event then maybe you would be right, but since there are many that do believe it was a false flag event and compare it to the Reichstag fire for exactly that reason, Hitler used the fire to bring in certain laws opening the door for his dictatorship, 911 was used to pass the Patriot act, which has many similarities to the laws Hitler passed in Germany.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, I was not aware that this was treasonous. Today I mixed mayo and ketchup together on a sandwich. It wasn't technically Russian dressing, but is it treasonous? I don't know? Should we ask Shawn Spicer? Will he yell at us? Has anyone seen anything like this before?

Well, technically it's American dressing, that thing called "Russian dressing" was invented in America. If you add caviar then it becomes more Russian, and is possibly treasonous. So the question everyone should be asking - did Trump add caviar to his sauce?

Oh the irony.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Seriously? Lots of events will have a "beneficial" effect on a presidency, Iranians releasing hostages for Reagan, Rise in employment for Trump (based on Obama's policies).

The Reichstag fire is a prime example of a "false flag" event. That makes it special, unique. Hitler didn't benefit as a result of coincidence but as a result of deceit, manipulation and evil.

Comparing 911 to the Reichstag fire will obviously be interpreted by many as you saying they are both false flag events. If you are not saying that then it definitely matters, it is clearly going to cause confusion and misunderstanding.

There are many, myself included, who feel that 911 was a false flag event. If there wasn't any suggestion that 911 was a false flag event then maybe you would be right, but since there are many that do believe it was a false flag event and compare it to the Reichstag fire for exactly that reason, Hitler used the fire to bring in certain laws opening the door for his dictatorship, 911 was used to pass the Patriot act, which has many similarities to the laws Hitler passed in Germany.

I don't know whether it was a false flag or not, but the result was that it empowered Bush and a similar event would likely empower Trump. Trump has shown that he would use that power against the free media and the judiciary.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't know whether it was a false flag or not, but the result was that it empowered Bush and a similar event would likely empower Trump. Trump has shown that he would use that power against the free media and the judiciary.

Don't you care? It was a trillion dollar war paid for with US tax dollars. It caused the rise of ISIS. You might argue that we had Al Qaeda, but what if that was a smoke screen and Al Qaeda was actually a front, similar to the "communist" accused of burning down the Reichstag? In that case we substituted a false enemy with a real one.

[ZNPaaneah]

Trump recently threatened certain politicians with payback for the defeat of his healthcare bill. Some in the media have characterized this behavior as childish. However, when one of those threatened was asked if this behavior from the President was appropriate he responded "if you are in fifth grade". Now although it might be technically correct to characterize 5th grade behavior as childish, I think the more appropriate term is juvenile.

I really hope the media can put a stop to this obvious bias, the president is not acting childish, he is acting juvenile.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Don't you care? It was a trillion dollar war paid for with US tax dollars. It caused the rise of ISIS. You might argue that we had Al Qaeda, but what if that was a smoke screen and Al Qaeda was actually a front, similar to the "communist" accused of burning down the Reichstag? In that case we substituted a false enemy with a real one.

I opposed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Trump recently threatened certain politicians with payback for the defeat of his healthcare bill. Some in the media have characterized this behavior as childish. However, when one of those threatened was asked if this behavior from the President was appropriate he responded "if you are in fifth grade". Now although it might be technically correct to characterize 5th grade behavior as childish, I think the more appropriate term is juvenile.

I really hope the media can put a stop to this obvious bias, the president is not acting childish, he is acting juvenile.

What an offense to all the 5th graders out there.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What an offense to all the 5th graders out there.

Being likened to Trump?

Reminds me of the guy who went into a bar in Montana and started griping about the "current" president, calling him a horse's behind, and promptly got decked. So he picked himself up and went down to the other end of the bar and asked a guy there, "What's with this place. Is this Clinton country?"

"No. It's horse country."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Being likened to Trump?

Reminds me of the guy who went into a bar in Montana and started griping about the "current" president, calling him a horse's behind, and promptly got decked. So he picked himself up and went down to the other end of the bar and asked a guy there, "What's with this place. Is this Clinton country?"

"No. It's horse country."

Trump recently said that the libel and slander laws should be changed. He was thinking of libel and slander against him. But not thinking of all the libel and slander that he's guilty of.

Here's an example:
Newspaper publisher threatens to sue state lawmaker over ‘fake news’ claim
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02...ke-news-claim/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump recently said that the libel and slander laws should be changed. He was thinking of libel and slander against him. But not thinking of all the libel and slander that he's guilty of.

Here's an example:
Newspaper publisher threatens to sue state lawmaker over ‘fake news’ claim
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02...ke-news-claim/

Why don't you give him credit for the wonderful honesty in his tweets? For example, concerning this investigation into Trump's campaign colluding with Russia to steal the election he confessed in his tweet that it was "a big scam". Wow! Talk about honesty.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why don't you give him credit for the wonderful honesty in his tweets? For example, concerning this investigation into Trump's campaign colluding with Russia to steal the election he confessed in his tweet that it was "a big scam". Wow! Talk about honesty.

Honest people don't go around saying "believe me" constantly ... unless they are unbelievable ... and that he is indeed.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Honest people don't go around saying "believe me" constantly ... unless they are unbelievable ... and that he is indeed.

How about his recent comment that "he likes nepotism"? Do you believe that?

What about his comments that asking for immunity indicates that you have committed a crime and then encouraging Flynn to seek immunity? Do you believe that?

[ZNPaaneah]

I see some eery comparisons between the period prior to WWI and today.

1. There were four major powers: Britain, France, Russia and Germany. Today I would equate those four with US, Nato, China and Russia.

2. Britain felt that the bigger threat was Russia, hence their foreign policy was designed to favor Russia and disadvantage Germany. Today the US sees China as the bigger threat and we favor China and disadvantage Russia.

3. France had an active policy of containment towards Germany. Today Nato has an active policy of containment towards Russia.

4. France insulted Germany when they seized Morocco. I see Hillary Clinton’s treatment of Russia as also insulting and analogous. The French error led to the resignation of a seasoned and experienced man (Declasse) in charge of foreign policy who was replaced with a novice (Rouvier). Clinton’s insults to Russia have led to her loss of the election and being replaced with a novice. We are now sending Kushner around handling our foreign policy.

5. Germany was forced to attempt to break up the alliances of Britain and France, and also of France and Russia. Today Russia is forced to break up the alliances of the US and Nato and the West with China. This is what is so concerning about the allegations concerning Trump, not just that he has colluded with Russia, but that he is also undermining the alliance with Nato. Taking the phone call from Taiwan was a major slap in the face to China. We will soon see what he does with China. He clearly signaled earlier this week that it would be OK for Syria to do as they wish without US interference. He has thrown three very big wrenches into our alliances with Nato and China, not to mention many little insults as well.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I see some eery comparisons between the period prior to WWI and today.

1. There were four major powers: Britain, France, Russia and Germany. Today I would equate those four with US, Nato, China and Russia.

2. Britain felt that the bigger threat was Russia, hence their foreign policy was designed to favor Russia and disadvantage Germany. Today the US sees China as the bigger threat and we favor China and disadvantage Russia.

3. France had an active policy of containment towards Germany. Today Nato has an active policy of containment towards Russia.

4. France insulted Germany when they seized Morocco. I see Hillary Clinton’s treatment of Russia as also insulting and analogous. The French error led to the resignation of a seasoned and experienced man (Declasse) in charge of foreign policy who was replaced with a novice (Rouvier). Clinton’s insults to Russia have led to her loss of the election and being replaced with a novice. We are now sending Kushner around handling our foreign policy.

5. Germany was forced to attempt to break up the alliances of Britain and France, and also of France and Russia. Today Russia is forced to break up the alliances of the US and Nato and the West with China. This is what is so concerning about the allegations concerning Trump, not just that he has colluded with Russia, but that he is also undermining the alliance with Nato. Taking the phone call from Taiwan was a major slap in the face to China. We will soon see what he does with China. He clearly signaled earlier this week that it would be OK for Syria to do as they wish without US interference. He has thrown three very big wrenches into our alliances with Nato and China, not to mention many little insults as well.

By comparing today with WWI are you seeing a pattern that is building up to WWIII? You did a great job on your post, you just forgot to add a point.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

By comparing today with WWI are you seeing a pattern that is building up to WWIII? You did a great job on your post, you just forgot to add a point.

I would like to think that we have "learned from the past" but with the present administration that would be ludicrous. If Trump came out and said that he is leaning heavily on the pros, Generals that graduated from West Point, etc. then I would think these guys would certainly know how to avoid the mistakes of the recent past. But lets be real, Trump is like Kaiser Wilhelm (a complete idiot on the same scale as Trump) who ignores his military leaders and they in turn will ignore him.

Terrorists in Serbia were no worse than today's ISIS, North Korea and Syria. Whatever happened to the evolution of man? Last night I heard one of these Trump apologists trying to compare Trump's foreign policy with Russia to that of Nixon with China. Comparing Trump and Kushner with Nixon and Kissinger, That is how idiotic these people are. Nixon may have been a crook, but when it came to foreign policy and geopolitics he was in a master league.

Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Eisenhower, or even Nixon. We used to have world class leaders and that is what we need. My point is that in the historical sense we are in "treacherous" waters. We need a very capable captain to guide this ship through these waters. Trump is not that person. How do we know? Syria. ISIS is calling him an idiot. You cannot allow these terrorists to think the US is being led by a buffoon. China called his bluff about "currency manipulator". They can't have any respect for him and they must view him as a very serious enemy after his little stunt with Taiwan. I think they gave North Korea the green light to start shooting off these missiles to blackmail Trump.

Instead of adding a point I would greatly prefer removing Trump. I can't see how we avoid catastrophe on a historic scale with him as president.

Russia is so isolated and has so few allies how can they afford to give up their foothold in Syria and hence the Mid East? China will calculate South Korea is a fair trade for Taiwan, so we see this mess in North Korea as insane, they see Trump as insane. ISIS views the US as an evil empire that uses Muslims as the "boogey man" to justify their undo influence and manipulation of leaders in the Middle East.

In every case I see Trump as making things worse, not better.

[OBW]

I do not know where the statement came from, but one of those banners under the CCN or Fox News talking heads yesterday indicated that someone had suggested that before the term is up, there is a decent chance that Trump could be in jail.

Not sure I buy it, but it would be a definite first.

(Don't ask for specifics. I just saw it in passing walking through our building at work.)

[ZNPaaneah]

It was Ukraine's interest in joining NATO that prompted Russia's invasion, and that invasion has put Montenegro on notice, who was also invited to join NATO.

If you liken the Austro-Hungarian empire at the turn of the last century to the UN with a bunch of different ethnicities stitched together in a patchwork quilt, it was clear then that Russia had a vested interest in seeing that arrangement fail.

So then, what is the purpose of Syria using Sarin gas in direct violation of the UN laws except to tell these people that it is a waste of time to appeal to the UN. These are the same civilians who have been pouring into Europe and are a humanitarian crisis that the UN is supposed to reconcile.

If we look at both the Ukraine invasion and this recent action by Syria we can see very clearly what Russia's "red line" is. When that line is crossed they don't give a press conference, they act. They will not willingly cede power and authority to either NATO or the UN.

Russia is acting like a cornered animal. When you have an animal that is cornered you want to open up a way of escape for them. You could view the melting arctic and the huge oil field as that "way of escape". When Clinton seemingly stood in the way of that once again Russia acted to get rid of her.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then, what is the purpose of Syria using Sarin gas in direct violation of the UN laws except to tell these people that it is a waste of time to appeal to the UN. These are the same civilians who have been pouring into Europe and are a humanitarian crisis that the UN is supposed to reconcile.

I've heard that purpose was to open a pathway into an area that is presently controlled by rebel forces. If so, it was to send a message to the civilians to get out of there, so that Syrian forces can focus on the rebels. But, they stunned the world with their atrocity. And, now Trump has stunned the world again. The world is run by fools with toys of mass destruction. Can anyone imagine a happy ending? Dr. Pinker?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've heard that purpose was to open a pathway into an area that is presently controlled by rebel forces. If so, it was to send a message to the civilians to get out of there, so that Syrian forces can focus on the rebels. But, they stunned the world with their atrocity. And, now Trump has stunned the world again. The world is run by fools with toys of mass destruction. Can anyone imagine a happy ending? Dr. Pinker?

What Trump just did last night was brilliant!

His strike was appropriate, decisive, timely, and measured.

He attacked the airbase which launched the chemical weapons.

He sent a message to Obama, Assad, Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the Ayatollah Khamenei.

.......

Just passing by, wanted to say hi to all my Trump-hating friends!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What Trump just did last night was brilliant!

His strike was appropriate, decisive, timely, and measured.

He attacked the airbase which launched the chemical weapons.

He sent a message to Obama, Assad, Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the Ayatollah Khamenei.

.......

Just passing by, wanted to say hi to all my Trump-hating friends!

He did it because Hillary & co. told him to do it. He's changed his mind about Assad and Syria. At least now his presidency will be guaranteed by accepting the reality and siding with Hillary & co. You should be happy about that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

He did it because Hillary & co. told him to do it. He's changed his mind about Assad and Syria. At least now his presidency will be guaranteed by accepting the reality and siding with Hillary & co. You should be happy about that.

That now makes as much sense as saying the Russians hacked the election for Trump.

Liberalism is a mental disorder -- Michael Savage.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've heard that purpose was to open a pathway into an area that is presently controlled by rebel forces. If so, it was to send a message to the civilians to get out of there, so that Syrian forces can focus on the rebels. But, they stunned the world with their atrocity. And, now Trump has stunned the world again. The world is run by fools with toys of mass destruction. Can anyone imagine a happy ending? Dr. Pinker?

Dr. Pinker gave his positive spin based on "per capita" violence. If the world's population has increased ten fold you could have a catastrophe that would have wiped out every single person in 1900, perhaps 10% of the world's population at some future cataclysm, yet on a historical basis using the "per capita" formula would not seem that big. There is nothing in Dr. Pinker's thesis that rules out a war killing 1 billion, instead he argues that relatively speaking that is still not as bad as the violence was thousands of years ago. He wasn't talking in absolute terms but relative terms.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What Trump just did last night was brilliant!

His strike was appropriate, decisive, timely, and measured.

He attacked the airbase which launched the chemical weapons.

He sent a message to Obama, Assad, Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the Ayatollah Khamenei.

.......

Just passing by, wanted to say hi to all my Trump-hating friends!

I applaud what he did and the way in which he did it.

[Evangelical]

I hate to break it to you Ohio, but Hillary said that the US should attack the airfields before Trump decided to do it:

https://qz.com/952656/hours-before-t...ads-airfields/

Hillary has been the the one who thought airstrikes against Assad was a good idea. Trump has always opposed it, until now. I can imagine, that while he was in his bathrobe sitting in bed using the inter net, he probably heard or read about Hillary's thoughts and decided it was a good idea.

He's just backflipped on "not being the world's policeman" in a big way.

It's got me thinking that Hillary & co. has him on a proverbial leash. There may be something else at play here - Trump sides with Hillary, secures his presidency, meanwhile distances himself from Russia by attacking Russian interests.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

My point is that in the historical sense we are in "treacherous" waters. We need a very capable captain to guide this ship through these waters. Trump is not that person. How do we know? Syria. ISIS is calling him an idiot. You cannot allow these terrorists to think the US is being led by a buffoon. China called his bluff about "currency manipulator". They can't have any respect for him and they must view him as a very serious enemy .

Well now. Your post came before The Drumpfster fired 59 Tomahawk missiles into Syria.

Now Trump is great again. And the world knows he has expensive weapons (1 million per Tomahawk) and will use them. Trump needs to look great. He's obsessed with it, it's a compulsion, a fetish of some kind. He needs it so bad that he might even make World War's great again.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well now. Your post came before The Drumpfster fired 59 Tomahawk missiles into Syria.

Now Trump is great again. And the world knows he has expensive weapons (1 million per Tomahawk) and will use them. Trump needs to look great. He's obsessed with it, it's a compulsion, a fetish of some kind. He needs it so bad that he might even make World War's great again.

He claimed to be shocked by the killing of innocent babies by chemical weapons. But he was against taking action when Assad struck innocent babies with toxic chemicals in the past and he has been unwilling to offer asylum to the innocent babies of Syria in the past. Trump is nothing if not duplicitous and self-contradictory. Now he has put the world on alert. Still, that plus approval of his pick Gorsuch for the SCOTUS makes this his best week so far. Heaven help us all.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

He claimed to be shocked by the killing of innocent babies by chemical weapons. But he was against taking action when Assad struck innocent babies with toxic chemicals in the past and he has been unwilling to offer asylum to the innocent babies of Syria in the past. Trump is nothing if not duplicitous and self-contradictory. Now he has put the world on alert. Still, that plus approval of his pick Gorsuch for the SCOTUS makes this his best week so far. Heaven help us all.

Syria is like a womb. He cares about the babies in the womb, but when they come out of the womb they're on their own ... like the abortion thingie. Same thing.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That now makes as much sense as saying the Russians hacked the election for Trump.

Liberalism is a mental disorder -- Michael Savage.

Hey, hey!!! Lent isn't over. But glad yer back.

[OBW]

Liberalism is a mental disorder -- Michael Savage.

I used to listen to Michael Savage some. Generally couldn't take much more than about 30 minutes of him a week.

I have to admit that I tended to agree with his underlying politics (or at least what was said to be his politics on the show). But I despised his demeanor and rancor.

And I would say that his gross disdain for anyone not generally in agreement with him suggested that he might have a mental disorder. One in which he was able to basically hate anyone not agreeing with him and call it righteous.

Michael Savage is not someone I would want to mention in the context of politics and the CHURCH. He is the antithesis of what kind of politics the people of God should have.

And as far as the church is concerned:

Conservatism is not Christian
Liberalism is not Christian
Socialism is not Christian
Capitalism is not Christian

Love God and your neighbor as yourself is Christian

I just couldn't get much love for anyone out of listening to Michael Savage.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well now. Your post came before The Drumpfster fired 59 Tomahawk missiles into Syria.

Now Trump is great again. And the world knows he has expensive weapons (1 million per Tomahawk) and will use them. Trump needs to look great. He's obsessed with it, it's a compulsion, a fetish of some kind. He needs it so bad that he might even make World War's great again.

The return of "the greatest generation". So that is what he meant by "make America Great again".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The return of "the greatest generation". So that is what he meant by "make America Great again".

To Trump everything he does is great. Even if it's not great, or not as great as Obama, he'll say and believe that it is great. Cuz he's great. He'll tell you, and back it up with plenty of "believe me's."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I hate to break it to you Ohio, but Hillary said that the US should attack the airfields before Trump decided to do it:

https://qz.com/952656/hours-before-t...ads-airfields/

Hillary has been the the one who thought airstrikes against Assad was a good idea. Trump has always opposed it, until now. I can imagine, that while he was in his bathrobe sitting in bed using the inter net, he probably heard or read about Hillary's thoughts and decided it was a good idea.

He's just backflipped on "not being the world's policeman" in a big way.

It's got me thinking that Hillary & co. has him on a proverbial leash. There may be something else at play here - Trump sides with Hillary, secures his presidency, meanwhile distances himself from Russia by attacking Russian interests.

Hillary got wind of the plan from John McCain, who actually had military experience, who was briefed by Trump's staff. The military developed their strategy to attack the Shy-Rat airfield nearly five years ago when your hero Nobama mentioned his "red line" in the desert sand.

[zeek]

Trump's ineffectual missle strike was an attempt to avert attention from his collusion with Russia. The US is still mired in Syrian proxy war with no end in sight.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hillary got wind of the plan from John McCain, who actually had military experience, who was briefed by Trump's staff. The military developed their strategy to attack the Shy-Rat airfield nearly five years ago when your hero Nobama mentioned his "red line" in the desert sand.

Yeah, when a black man does it, congress shuts him down. But when a white man does it, congress gives him a tongue bath ... even when it's unconstitutional ... that they all took an oath to uphold.

Still, it only took 59 Tomahawk missiles, costing a pittance of only 59 million (plus expenses), to make Trump great again.

Go Trump. Keep on being great ... even if it takes WWIII.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump's ineffectual missle strike was an attempt to avert attention from his collusion with Russia. The US is still mired in Syrian proxy war with no end in sight.

How do you know?

Syria's use of Sarin gas is a very clear violation of the UN rules and the world needed someone to take the lead. If the US hadn't reacted it would have meant UN laws are a sham.

Tit for Tat is a legitimate strategy in game theory, adding the option to forgive in certain situations is the ideal strategy. Trump's action was clearly a Tit for Tat. He hit the air base that used the Sarin Gas with a lot of missiles and it sent a very clear message that Syria will pay if they do this again. On the other hand you don't want to destroy Syria's air force because that would open the door for ISIS.

It seems clear to me this was a plan developed by the Pentagon, it was implemented cleanly without any loss of US life, and it sent a very clear message -- use chemical weapons and you will pay a price. We don't want to destroy your air force unless you force us to do it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How do you know?

Syria's use of Sarin gas is a very clear violation of the UN rules and the world needed someone to take the lead. If the US hadn't reacted it would have meant UN laws are a sham.

Tit for Tat is a legitimate strategy in game theory, adding the option to forgive in certain situations is the ideal strategy. Trump's action was clearly a Tit for Tat. He hit the air base that used the Sarin Gas with a lot of missiles and it sent a very clear message

No ... a clear message would have been to only fire one Tomahawk missile ... into Assad's palace ; just one, costing only 1 million busks. That would have sent a clear message ; that Assad's life is in danger, if he does it again.

The strike left a string of jets untouched. And Assad used the same airstrip to take off from, to go bomb the city he gassed.

Zeek is right "Trump's ineffectual missle strike...."

But who cares. Trump is great. It sure accomplished that ; missile strike effective.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How do you know?

Syria's use of Sarin gas is a very clear violation of the UN rules and the world needed someone to take the lead. If the US hadn't reacted it would have meant UN laws are a sham.

Tit for Tat is a legitimate strategy in game theory, adding the option to forgive in certain situations is the ideal strategy. Trump's action was clearly a Tit for Tat. He hit the air base that used the Sarin Gas with a lot of missiles and it sent a very clear message that Syria will pay if they do this again. On the other hand you don't want to destroy Syria's air force because that would open the door for ISIS.

It seems clear to me this was a plan developed by the Pentagon, it was implemented cleanly without any loss of US life, and it sent a very clear message -- use chemical weapons and you will pay a price. We don't want to destroy your air force unless you force us to do it.

absolutely.

The Pentagon prepped the identical plan for Obama, the black man, five years ago who should have acted on it, but never did. Obama was pro-Shiite, since Valerie Jarrett was an Iranian communist.

Hillary, McCain, and half of DC knew the plan.

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel. They take strategic action against Israel for building houses, yet do nothing when Assad gases his own people. The UN charter was supposed to stop genocide, not better housing. Trump should end all payments to the UN.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, when a black man does it, congress shuts him down. But when a white man does it, congress gives him a tongue bath ... even when it's unconstitutional ... that they all took an oath to uphold.

Still, it only took 59 Tomahawk missiles, costing a pittance of only 59 million (plus expenses), to make Trump great again.

Go Trump. Keep on being great ... even if it takes WWIII.

Obama set us up for WWIII.

He did nothing about North Korean nukes.

He gave Iran billions for their Nuke program.

He did nothing to stop Assad since Hezbollah trained in Syria.

Obama even scolded Romney for being concerned about Russia.

The entire Russian hacking fake news is a ruse to coverup Clinton ties with Putin.

Then he got his coveted UN resolution condemning Israel over Palestine.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

absolutely.

The Pentagon prepped the identical plan for Obama, the black man, five years ago who should have acted on it, but never did. Obama was pro-Shiite, since Valerie Jarrett was an Iranian communist.

Hillary, McCain, and half of DC knew the plan.

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel. They take strategic action against Israel for building houses, yet do nothing when Assad gases his own people. The UN charter was supposed to stop genocide, not better housing. Trump should end all payments to the UN.

America can withdraw from the UN.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[/B]
Obama set us up for WWIII.

He did nothing about North Korean nukes.

He gave Iran billions for their Nuke program.

He did nothing to stop Assad since Hezbollah trained in Syria.

Obama even scolded Romney for being concerned about Russia.

The entire Russian hacking fake news is a ruse to coverup Clinton ties with Putin.

Then he got his coveted UN resolution condemning Israel over Palestine.

Sounds like Obama was the most powerful president ever in history. He has to be. Or Trump wouldn't be great ... when he undoes everything Obama ... except for that pesky OBAMAcare.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

No ... a clear message would have been to only fire one Tomahawk missile ... into Assad's palace ; just one, costing only 1 million busks. That would have sent a clear message ; that Assad's life is in danger, if he does it again.

The strike left a string of jets untouched. And Assad used the same airstrip to take off from, to go bomb the city he gassed.

Zeek is right "Trump's ineffectual missle strike...."

But who cares. Trump is great. It sure accomplished that ; missile strike effective.

That would have been extremely destabilizing without any damage to his ability to strike back. You shoot at me then you have lost any high ground for any response I make, because now my response is self defense.

We don't want to destabilize Syria, that opens the door to ISIS. What we want is for Syria to continue to be a buffer against ISIS without using chemical weapons.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

absolutely.

The Pentagon prepped the identical plan for Obama, the black man, five years ago who should have acted on it, but never did. Obama was pro-Shiite, since Valerie Jarrett was an Iranian communist.

Hillary, McCain, and half of DC knew the plan.

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel. They take strategic action against Israel for building houses, yet do nothing when Assad gases his own people. The UN charter was supposed to stop genocide, not better housing. Trump should end all payments to the UN.

I agree that setting a red line, and then watching passively as Syria crossed that line was a serious mistake. To say he was pro shiite is further than I am willing to go.

[Evangelical]

The Syrian government killed 70 people, of which 20 were children. That's a child to civilian ration of 29%.

Trump in response, killed 9 civilians, of which 4 were children.That's a child to total civilian ratio of 44%.

Therefore Trump is more of a child-killer than Assad, in this instance.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Syrian government killed 70 people, of which 20 were children. That's a child to civilian ration of 29%.

Trump in response, killed 9 civilians, of which 4 were children.That's a child to total civilian ratio of 44%.

Therefore Trump is more of a child-killer than Assad, in this instance.

Wow! So Stalin and Hitler, even though they killed millions, since less than a third of those they killed were children that would make Trump a bigger child killer than Stalin or Hitler?! Who knew!

This is terrifying. I read a story about this "sweet" old lady who "accidentally" hit and killed a child while driving. It came out in the story that this was her first accident. She only killed one person in her entire life and it was a child! OMG, she is a bigger child killer than Stalin, Hitler, or even Trump!

Great use of statistics in verifying Mark Twain's claim. BTW I also read that teenage pregnancy drops off dramatically when girls hit the age of 25.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Syrian government killed 70 people, of which 20 were children. That's a child to civilian ration of 29%.

Trump in response, killed 9 civilians, of which 4 were children.That's a child to total civilian ratio of 44%.

Therefore Trump is more of a child-killer than Assad, in this instance.

Yeah right!

There were little children playing in armored military hangers at 3 am, while all the Russians were taking off!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That would have been extremely destabilizing without any damage to his ability to strike back. You shoot at me then you have lost any high ground for any response I make, because now my response is self defense.

We don't want to destabilize Syria, that opens the door to ISIS. What we want is for Syria to continue to be a buffer against ISIS without using chemical weapons.

UN Ambassador Nikki Haley disagrees with you. She says there won''t be peace without removing Assad.

It would only take one Tomahawk to do so.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Ya can't be totally against Israel and send the largest shipment of military weapons in history for Israel to use against the Gazans ... including white phosphorus bombs.

Maybe you are just seeing appearances. Obama has to stick up for the plight of the Palestinians ... as any humane human should do. But behind the appearances, money and weapons, proved that he was with Israel.

Methinks, as I gather from most anywhere, that it's religion that blinds people to the plight of the Palestinians ; driving them to even go so far as to claim antisemitism against those sticking up for the Palestinians. Like Jimmy Carter, for instance.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

UN Ambassador Nikki Haley disagrees with you. She says there won''t be peace without removing Assad.

It would only take one Tomahawk to do so.

They want to remove him by diplomatic means, not force, and they have set fighting ISIS as a higher priority. So I guess that means I was right after all.

Returning to the WWI analogy -- Russia was viewed as a country that was growing unchecked both in population and wealth. They seemed like an unstoppable force. It may seem weird to us today, but this was definitely the feeling of Germany and others. That is not unlike the view of China today.

Germany felt that war was inevitable and the longer they waited the more likely they would lose.

England and France were so caught up in their own security they did not regard the security of Germany. I think this is called the "security dilemma" where one country increases their feeling of security at the expense of another which then feels less secure.

But in the mix of these four you had the "Austro Hungarian" empire which was a patchwork quilt of different ethnicities who were the most miserable -- Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro being the foremost. These countries were the only ones who actually wanted war.

Today that would be ISIS, Iraq and Syria.

If you take out Assad with a missile you also take out Russia's connection to the Middle East. That would greatly increase their feeling of insecurity. You can't do that unless you want to start WWIII. Syria and ISIS are fighting an ugly, no holds barred war to the death. We don't need to have these two misfits drag the US and Russia into a world war over the Middle East.

What we need is for a negotiated settlement where Russia removes Assad and replaces him with someone they are comfortable with.

The UN is today's "Austro-Hungarian" Empire and could easily be the lynchpin to another major war.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They want to remove him by diplomatic means, not force, and they have set fighting ISIS as a higher priority. So I guess that means I was right after all.

Returning to the WWI analogy -- Russia was viewed as a country that was growing unchecked both in population and wealth. They seemed like an unstoppable force. It may seem weird to us today, but this was definitely the feeling of Germany and others. That is not unlike the view of China today.

Germany felt that war was inevitable and the longer they waited the more likely they would lose.

England and France were so caught up in their own security they did not regard the security of Germany. I think this is called the "security dilemma" where one country increases their feeling of security at the expense of another which then feels less secure.

But in the mix of these four you had the "Austro Hungarian" empire which was a patchwork quilt of different ethnicities who were the most miserable -- Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro being the foremost. These countries were the only ones who actually wanted war.

Today that would be ISIS, Iraq and Syria.

If you take out Assad with a missile you also take out Russia's connection to the Middle East. That would greatly increase their feeling of insecurity. You can't do that unless you want to start WWIII. Syria and ISIS are fighting an ugly, no holds barred war to the death. We don't need to have these two misfits drag the US and Russia into a world war over the Middle East.

What we need is for a negotiated settlement where Russia removes Assad and replaces him with someone they are comfortable with.

The UN is today's "Austro-Hungarian" Empire and could easily be the lynchpin to another major war.

Let's make world wars great again.