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Old 02-11-2016, 04:15 PM   #1
zeek
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Default Politics and the Church

Here is a sample of the LCM teaching on politics and the church:


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POLITICS
AND RELIGION

Separation of politics and religion is a fine teaching in the Bible. "You know that those who are esteemed as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it is not so among you [the Christians]" (Mark 10:42-43). The Lord Jesus declared that His kingdom is not of this world. Hence, the church, which is subject to the Lord, does not need to go to war. But the question now is much deeper than that of separation between politics and religion.

Many believers think that it is good for politics and religion to be separated one from the other, that the church should not bother itself with politics, and that politics should not interfere with the church. But they think that the church should declare its stand and express its view concerning current issues and that believers can join political movements and serve as government officials. What they say seems to be reasonable, because they say that since believers are also citizens of a country, they have their works as citizens. We should look at the teaching in the Bible. The Lord Jesus left us "a model so that you may follow in His steps" (1 Pet. 2:21). The Lord is our example in everything. We will not go wrong if we follow Him in respect to our relationship to politics. Was the Lord Jesus a politician? Did He pay attention to the politics of His country? Did He ever represent the voice of the people to criticize the officers of Palestine? Did He ever rebuke the political oppressors on behalf of the politically oppressed? Did He ever rally any political power around Him? Please read Luke 12:14; 13:1-3; Matthew 17:24; 22:21.

Christians are merely strangers and sojourners on earth (Heb. 11:13-16; 1 Pet. 2:11). Who can interfere or participate in the politics of a country? Only those who are the citizens of that country can do this. Those Chinese who reside in Japan have no right to interfere with the politics of Japan. The fact that we are strangers and sojourners shows that we have nothing to do with the politics of this world.

Some have said, "Who can be more qualified to be government officers? Are they not more just and morally qualified than others?" The answer in the Bible is that Christians are the most unqualified to be government officers. A government officer is one who executes the law. The laws in the world are based on justice, and all transgressors have to be punished. However, the principle of conduct of Christians today is mercy (Matt. 5:38-48). Can world politics act according to the teaching on the Mount? The words "do not judge, that you be not judged" (Matt. 7:1) have forever disqualified believers from interfering with politics or being executors of law.

The Lord Jesus forever separated politics from the church of God in Matthew 22:21. Since believers do not belong to Caesar (who represents politics), they should never do the work of Caesar. Let those who belong to Caesar do the work of Caesar. We who belong to God should be separated solely unto God.

The Bible only commands believers to be obedient citizens of a country and obey the officers; it has not commanded the believers to be officers themselves and be obeyed. Please read Titus 3:1; Romans 13:1, 5-7. If we are pressured to act contrary to God's commands, we have to act according to Acts 5:29. Matthew 10:23 is also a good solution. We can choose to disobey, but we must never become non-submissive or rebel.

If God's children try to be officers at the gate of Sodom, they will find that before Lot had a chance to convert Sodom, Sodom had converted Lot! Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 07: The Christian (5)
According to Nee the Bible teaches that it is wrong for a Christian to hold political office. So, professing Christians should not run for or hold public office or work for the government. The business of government should be left to unbelievers.

I worked for the State of Florida for 37 years. It never occurred to me that I was acting unchristian. How about that?
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Old 02-12-2016, 10:53 AM   #2
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
According to Nee the Bible teaches that it is wrong for a Christian to hold political office. So, professing Christians should not run for or hold public office or work for the government. The business of government should be left to unbelievers.

I worked for the State of Florida for 37 years. It never occurred to me that I was acting unchristian. How about that?
Given the kind of politics that some push (as you linked in a recent post elsewhere), there is an aspect in which the Christian is better of to not be in politics. But that extreme is no different than the one that says you should have nothing to do with it. Somewhere in between is the real biblical position.

I assume that your service in government was both valuable and worthy of your efforts. (Not saying you always may have felt that way.)

And even to hold public office is a noble task. But forcing Christian morality onto the world through such position is a different thing. And sticking your head in the sand is just as poor.
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:23 AM   #3
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According to Nee the Bible teaches that it is wrong for a Christian to hold political office. So, professing Christians should not run for or hold public office or work for the government. The business of government should be left to unbelievers.
Then I suppose that the only "proper" occupations in the Bible for Christians are fishing (Peter), medical doctors (Luke), preaching (Apollos), and tent-making (Paul). Perhaps I missed a couple others. Ahh yes, slaves and slave owners.

And all you computer guys, engineers, day-traders, fashionistas, garbage men, landscapers, sales people, car mechanics, etc. are all on notice for being too worldly.

Btw, Nee took his political views from Darby. Perhaps the exclusives posted spies at the polling booths to see if any of their members had become "worldly." I read what Nee taught on politics, and I am shocked at the poor teachings supposedly supported by scripture. Think of his logic: The Lord Jesus was not a politician, so neither should we be. But the Lord was neither in pharmaceuticals like Nee was. Didn't he know that "pharma," the root word for pharmaceuticals, is the Greek word for demons?
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Old 02-13-2016, 08:38 AM   #4
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Then I suppose that the only "proper" occupations in the Bible for Christians are fishing (Peter), medical doctors (Luke), preaching (Apollos), and tent-making (Paul). Perhaps I missed a couple others. Ahh yes, slaves and slave owners.

And all you computer guys, engineers, day-traders, fashionistas, garbage men, landscapers, sales people, car mechanics, etc. are all on notice for being too worldly.

Btw, Nee took his political views from Darby. Perhaps the exclusives posted spies at the polling booths to see if any of their members had become "worldly." I read what Nee taught on politics, and I am shocked at the poor teachings supposedly supported by scripture. Think of his logic: The Lord Jesus was not a politician, so neither should we be. But the Lord was neither in pharmaceuticals like Nee was. Didn't he know that "pharma," the root word for pharmaceuticals, is the Greek word for demons?
Good points bro Ohio. Nee was so against government that he didn't pay 'em taxes (didn't render to Caesar). That got him arrested. Then he relented toward government ... and changed his mind, to get a lighter sentence ... and admitted many more sins toward those efforts ... damaging many, and his ministry, in the process. Martyr my behind. Witness Lee go tell it to those who don't know you, or Nee.

Should we trust Nee, or Lee, about anything?
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Old 02-13-2016, 07:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

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Good points bro Ohio. Nee was so against government that he didn't pay 'em taxes (didn't render to Caesar). That got him arrested. Then he relented toward government ... and changed his mind, to get a lighter sentence ... and admitted many more sins toward those efforts ... damaging many, and his ministry, in the process. Martyr my behind. Witness Lee go tell it to those who don't know you, or Nee.

Should we trust Nee, or Lee, about anything?
An ad hominem argument is a fallacy unless it can be shown that the character of the proposer is relevant to the truth of his/her proposition. Even a pathological liar may correctly observe that the sky is blue. So, it doesn't necessarily follow that if Nee transgressed then his propositions regarding politics are false. If you wish to refute Nee's points, you can't just attack Nee. You actually have to show how they are false.
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Old 02-14-2016, 07:40 AM   #6
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WE WILL NEVER SAY THAT WE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! (WATCHMAN NEE)

"We will never say that we can never be wrong! Even if all others approve us, we will be the last to approve ourselves. It may be that our mistakes are more numerous than those of others! But, dear brothers, we are willing to follow the Bible literally. If we are wrong, we are indeed willing to be corrected. We would ask those who know where we are wrong to please point out to us our mistakes from the teachings of the Bible, and not from the opinions of men. We know that we are not trustworthy. This is why we trust in the Bible. Since we know that we are not trustworthy, we would also ask your forgiveness in our unwillingness to trust in any famous Bible expositor. We admit that the exposition in The Christian is quite different from the traditional interpretations of men. We are definitely not for our readers to follow us blindly. If they do this, it would be better for The Christian to cease its publication. We can only proclaim the truth that we know. Our readers should never think that what The Christian has said can never contain any mistake. We have to tell the brothers frankly that we do not believe we are like the biblical prophets who wrote the Scriptures by divine inspiration. We can make mistakes. Even though those who love The Christian are increasing day by day, perhaps no one is more aware of the shortcomings of the magazine than the editor himself. The Lord also knows our shortcomings. We hope that every reader will check our messages against the teachings of the Bible. If they are the same, then please pay the price to follow these teachings. If they are not the same, we advise you to refuse them totally. Never follow blindly just because you trust The Christian and its editor. Our unique goal is to lead people closer to God's living word and His written Word. If a man can be drawn closer to Christ and to the Bible, our work has received its great reward. I wish that The Christian would simply be something like a pontoon bridge, something that is used and then forgotten, with itself receiving no recognition at all."

COLLECTED WORKS OF WATCHMAN NEE, THE (SET 1) VOL. 07: THE CHRISTIAN (5)

Chapter 19 Section 1
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Old 02-14-2016, 09:02 AM   #7
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Then I suppose that the only "proper" occupations in the Bible for Christians are fishing (Peter), medical doctors (Luke), preaching (Apollos), and tent-making (Paul). Perhaps I missed a couple others. Ahh yes, slaves and slave owners.
Yeah the only occupation of Christians should be those found in the Bible. And their only allowed to dress like back then too ...

And David was a king, and Jesus too ... so government is allowed ... especially President, our version of king. Obama, for example, is king of Babylon ... and he's a Christian. Cruz? I don't know. He's a Canuck. Has birther issues. Unlike Obama.
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Old 02-14-2016, 09:52 AM   #8
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Yeah the only occupation of Christians should be those found in the Bible. And their only allowed to dress like back then too ...

And David was a king, and Jesus too ... so government is allowed ... especially President, our version of king. Obama, for example, is king of Babylon ... and he's a Christian. Cruz? I don't know. He's a Canuck. Has birther issues. Unlike Obama.
Unlike yobama??? They proved he was a Mooslim born in Kenya. I've seen how they forgered his birth certificate.

I'm starting to feel the "Bern." I'm going to vote for Sanders. He just seems so sincere, compared to all the other guys. I figure I'll get free education, free health care, free food and housing, and free bus tickets. And Hillary and Trump will pay for it all! How could I pass up such a great deal?

I need to get it in writing, though, you know how those lawyers and politicians are.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
WE WILL NEVER SAY THAT WE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! (WATCHMAN NEE)

"We will never say that we can never be wrong! Even if all others approve us, we will be the last to approve ourselves. It may be that our mistakes are more numerous than those of others! But, dear brothers, we are willing to follow the Bible literally. If we are wrong, we are indeed willing to be corrected. We would ask those who know where we are wrong to please point out to us our mistakes from the teachings of the Bible, and not from the opinions of men. We know that we are not trustworthy. This is why we trust in the Bible. Since we know that we are not trustworthy, we would also ask your forgiveness in our unwillingness to trust in any famous Bible expositor. We admit that the exposition in The Christian is quite different from the traditional interpretations of men. We are definitely not for our readers to follow us blindly. If they do this, it would be better for The Christian to cease its publication. We can only proclaim the truth that we know. Our readers should never think that what The Christian has said can never contain any mistake. We have to tell the brothers frankly that we do not believe we are like the biblical prophets who wrote the Scriptures by divine inspiration. We can make mistakes. Even though those who love The Christian are increasing day by day, perhaps no one is more aware of the shortcomings of the magazine than the editor himself. The Lord also knows our shortcomings. We hope that every reader will check our messages against the teachings of the Bible. If they are the same, then please pay the price to follow these teachings. If they are not the same, we advise you to refuse them totally. Never follow blindly just because you trust The Christian and its editor. Our unique goal is to lead people closer to God's living word and His written Word. If a man can be drawn closer to Christ and to the Bible, our work has received its great reward. I wish that The Christian would simply be something like a pontoon bridge, something that is used and then forgotten, with itself receiving no recognition at all."

COLLECTED WORKS OF WATCHMAN NEE, THE (SET 1) VOL. 07: THE CHRISTIAN (5)

Chapter 19 Section 1
These are great words from Nee. Nee said a lot of great things. But in the end, from what I've learned, and seen with my own eyes in Lee's movement in America, he says one thing and produces another ; not to mention is own personal sexual improprieties, in his hidden personal life.

So what was your purpose in posting it testallthings?
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Old 02-14-2016, 05:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
WE WILL NEVER SAY THAT WE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! (WATCHMAN NEE)




"We will never say that we can never be wrong! Even if all others approve us, we will be the last to approve ourselves. It may be that our mistakes are more numerous than those of others! But, dear brothers, we are willing to follow the Bible literally. If we are wrong, we are indeed willing to be corrected. We would ask those who know where we are wrong to please point out to us our mistakes from the teachings of the Bible, and not from the opinions of men. We know that we are not trustworthy. This is why we trust in the Bible. Since we know that we are not trustworthy, we would also ask your forgiveness in our unwillingness to trust in any famous Bible expositor. We admit that the exposition in The Christian is quite different from the traditional interpretations of men. We are definitely not for our readers to follow us blindly. If they do this, it would be better for The Christian to cease its publication. We can only proclaim the truth that we know. Our readers should never think that what The Christian has said can never contain any mistake. We have to tell the brothers frankly that we do not believe we are like the biblical prophets who wrote the Scriptures by divine inspiration. We can make mistakes. Even though those who love The Christian are increasing day by day, perhaps no one is more aware of the shortcomings of the magazine than the editor himself. The Lord also knows our shortcomings. We hope that every reader will check our messages against the teachings of the Bible. If they are the same, then please pay the price to follow these teachings. If they are not the same, we advise you to refuse them totally. Never follow blindly just because you trust The Christian and its editor. Our unique goal is to lead people closer to God's living word and His written Word. If a man can be drawn closer to Christ and to the Bible, our work has received its great reward. I wish that The Christian would simply be something like a pontoon bridge, something that is used and then forgotten, with itself receiving no recognition at all."

COLLECTED WORKS OF WATCHMAN NEE, THE (SET 1) VOL. 07: THE CHRISTIAN (5)

Chapter 19 Section 1
Humble words those, but when others actually did say "we" were wrong 'we" sued the pants off of them. So "we" said one thing and did another. Let me know if I'm "wrong" but I think that's called hypocrisy.
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Old 02-14-2016, 06:19 PM   #11
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Default W. Nee: POLITICS AND RELIGION

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Separation of politics and religion is a fine teaching in the Bible. "You know that those who are esteemed as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it is not so among you [the Christians]" (Mark 10:42-43). The Lord Jesus declared that His kingdom is not of this world. Hence, the church, which is subject to the Lord, does not need to go to war. But the question now is much deeper than that of separation between politics and religion.
This is similar to Jefferson's federalist statement "the separation of church and state." It was not that the church could not be a part of the state, but that the state could not rule the church. That was the separation the framers intended.

Jesus said, "it is not so among you," meaning that in the church no leader should exercise authority as the Gentiles do. Jesus never said that His children could not engage in any politics. Where is that specific verse? Notice how many liberties Nee takes to promulgate his own opinions.

Note that in this first paragraph, Nee's most provocative point was that the church does not need to go to war. He got that from Mark 10.42-43? Seriously? Is that like Cassius Clay becoming a "conscientious objector" so that he could dodge the draft and remain a professional boxer? Pulleeease! What about all those verses about submitting to authorities? Jesus said "His kingdom is not of this world," does that also mean that we should not live in houses because we are the "house of God?"
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Old 02-14-2016, 06:41 PM   #12
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Default W. Nee: POLITICS AND RELIGION

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We should look at the teaching in the Bible. The Lord Jesus left us "a model so that you may follow in His steps" (1 Pet. 2:21). The Lord is our example in everything. We will not go wrong if we follow Him in respect to our relationship to politics. Was the Lord Jesus a politician? Did He pay attention to the politics of His country? Did He ever represent the voice of the people to criticize the officers of Palestine? Did He ever rebuke the political oppressors on behalf of the politically oppressed? Did He ever rally any political power around Him? Please read Luke 12:14; 13:1-3; Matthew 17:24; 22:21.
I agree, the Lord Jesus was our model, and He was never a politician. He surely did, however, pay attention to the leaders of Israel. Remember our Lord was not sent to Rome or Greece or Egypt, He came to Israel as the prophets have told us. And Jesus did indeed publicly chastise the Jewish leaders for oppressing the children of God! Go read about how He rebuked the Pharisees and scribes. He shamed the Sanhedrin, the political leaders of the day, telling them "woe to you ..."

Jesus came as the Lamb of God to redeem God's people. There are lots of things He did and did not do. Jesus was not an Architect. He cared little for Herod's gorgeous temple, even prophesying that no stone would remain on another. Does this mean that no Christian should be an Architect?

What about a bazillion other professions? Jesus was silent on them all, especially computers and smart phones. Hear ye, hear ye, all you backsliding Christians! Come out of her My people! And throw all your computers and smart phones in the fire! And be faithful to follow Jesus the carpenter!

In my neighborhood there are lots of nice houses going up all around, and the Amish do the rough carpentry on them all. According to Nee's hermeneutic, all of us Christians should be carpenters like Jesus, just like the Amish are. (And, btw, the Amish don't pay taxes either!)
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Old 02-14-2016, 06:46 PM   #13
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1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


To awareness:

Nee was trying to present what he understood from the Bible. He didn't pretend to be correct all the time, so he asked his readers to check with the Bible and if they found him wrong to correct him. That was my point (actually Nee's point). He accepted correction from the Bible but not from the opinions of men. So far I haven't seen a single verse (maybe allusions), from anyone, disproving what Nee said.


The second thing is, if you believe he sinned in an horrible way, why are you still concerned about what he wrote. It seems that to prove his point was wrong you have to attack his person. If his point was wrong it would be wrong even if he was “perfect” in his conduct.


To all:

Nee was Nee. Lee was Lee.
Please, do not judge Nee's writing by what Lee or Lee's coworkers did or said.
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:39 PM   #14
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This is similar to Jefferson's federalist statement "the separation of church and state." It was not that the church could not be a part of the state, but that the state could not rule the church. That was the separation the framers intended.
No. The first amendment to the US Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." It cuts both ways. Jefferson wanted to prevent state churches like they had in Europe.
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Old 02-14-2016, 11:10 PM   #15
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1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


To awareness:

Nee was trying to present what he understood from the Bible. He didn't pretend to be correct all the time, so he asked his readers to check with the Bible and if they found him wrong to correct him. That was my point (actually Nee's point). He accepted correction from the Bible but not from the opinions of men. So far I haven't seen a single verse (maybe allusions), from anyone, disproving what Nee said.


The second thing is, if you believe he sinned in an horrible way, why are you still concerned about what he wrote. It seems that to prove his point was wrong you have to attack his person. If his point was wrong it would be wrong even if he was “perfect” in his conduct.


To all:

Nee was Nee. Lee was Lee.
Please, do not judge Nee's writing by what Lee or Lee's coworkers did or said.
Yes they were different guys and their teaching should not be conflated. However, The Lord's Recovery Movement claims allegiance to both. So, the faithfulness of the movement to Nee's teachings ought to be evaluated. For that matter, Nee's adherence to his own teaching can be assessed. His teachings over time can be also be compared for consistency.

Was the teaching you shared an early one? Did Nee remain that humble? If he claimed to be the minister of his age, what possible meaning could that title have if he admits that anything he teaches could be wrong and that we ought not follow him blindly? If you accept that a guy is God's sole minister of the age, aren't you obligated to follow him blindly? Of course, why anyone would accept that claim from anybody is another question.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:12 AM   #16
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No. The first amendment to the US Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." It cuts both ways. Jefferson wanted to prevent state churches like they had in Europe.
Yep. What I said.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:33 AM   #17
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To Zeek

I'll try to find if Nee remained humble or not (although I don't see the connection with Politics and the Church). The quote I posted refers to the same magazine you took your quote from, probably is the same year (I am not sure).

Would you please tell me where Nee says that he is was the minister of his age?
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:28 AM   #18
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To Zeek

I'll try to find if Nee remained humble or not (although I don't see the connection with Politics and the Church). The quote I posted refers to the same magazine you took your quote from, probably is the same year (I am not sure).

Would you please tell me where Nee says that he is was the minister of his age?
I haven't seen that Nee did make that claim explicitly but the LSM defends the claim that he was the MOTA. My impression is that he implied it. http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html Whether or not Nee considered himself the unique MOTA is presently a controversy between LSM and Nigel Tomes and others.

As if that isn't problem enough, the anonymous author of the piece states "At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving." Yet Witness Lee claimed to be the MOTA so the putative Lord's desire was delayed while he was alive according to the LSM.

In my opinion, these preachers should really have stuck to reading the Bible rather then all this speculation about people being the MOTA, an issue which really can't rise beyond the level of opinion. To any somewhat objective observer it looks pretty silly. Don't you agree?
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


To awareness:

Nee was trying to present what he understood from the Bible. He didn't pretend to be correct all the time, so he asked his readers to check with the Bible and if they found him wrong to correct him. That was my point (actually Nee's point). He accepted correction from the Bible but not from the opinions of men. So far I haven't seen a single verse (maybe allusions), from anyone, disproving what Nee said.


The second thing is, if you believe he sinned in an horrible way, why are you still concerned about what he wrote. It seems that to prove his point was wrong you have to attack his person. If his point was wrong it would be wrong even if he was “perfect” in his conduct.


To all:

Nee was Nee. Lee was Lee.
Please, do not judge Nee's writing by what Lee or Lee's coworkers did or said.
Good post TAT. I'd like to hear more about how the verses you provided relate, but that can be set aside.

First. Are you saying that the con of a preacher conman can be dismissed as long as he teaches the Bible?

Second. Zeek's quote of Nee, and his teaching that Christians should not be involved in government, can be Biblically disproven by the fact that there are many examples in the Bible of men of God who were involved in government. King David comes to mind. And even Jesus provides an example. He was executed because he was King of the Jews. Doesn't the position of king involve government? Plus, Jesus said the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Again, isn't that government?

Then, according to the Bible, we've got both God and Jesus sitting on thrones.

So Nee was wrong, concerning Christians and government, according to the Bible.

Third. I have no quibble with your quote:

WE WILL NEVER SAY THAT WE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! (WATCHMAN NEE)

In fact I proved with the Bible that Nee was wrong.

Fourth. We're getting our quotes from Living Stream Ministry. So Nee is too connected with Lee, and Lee to Nee.

Thanks for your input TAT. I'm anxious to learn more about where you are going.
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Old 02-15-2016, 02:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: W. Nee: POLITICS AND RELIGION

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Yep. What I said.
...Not!...
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:40 PM   #21
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R.I.P Antonin Scalia. Obama will need to replace him. We should all be praying for Obama.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: W. Nee: POLITICS AND RELIGION

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...Not!...
Just for clarity:

Not being able to ignore Jefferson, the Christian right has decidedcided to deliberately misinterpret his message. Anti-separationists deny that Jefferson's term "wall of separation between Church and State" meant anything like what modern "liberals" mean by the phrase. But if we read the whole passage from which this phrase was extracted, it really seems that he did:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State [italics mine]. (from his [Jefferson] letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, January I, 1802)"
Brooke Allen. Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers (Kindle Locations 802-805). Kindle Edition.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:49 PM   #23
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Joh 18:23 Jesus answered him, "If I have said anything wrong, tell me what it was. But if I have told the truth, why do you hit me?"



Could this verse be used in our discussion? Can we just tell what the wrong was without hitting the person who spoke (Nee in this case)? It seems to me, that the tendency is not to prove but just to hit.

Regarding, “He says one thing and produces another.” Do you refer to Lee? The Lord Jesus said (for example), love your enemy, do not love mammon, etc.. If we fail in obeying His word, should someone be entitled to blame the Lord for the bad result? About Nee's sins, I have not yet investigated or read about it. But if, every time there is an issue about what Nee taught, and the only way to win the argument is always to refer to his sins,(or to what Lee did) then there isn't anything to discuss, we just condemn in toto what he said and that is the end of the story. On the other end, if we are interested in proving from the Bible if what he said is right or wrong, well then let's do it.

Now to your points:

“First. Are you saying that the con of a preacher conman can be dismissed as long as he teaches the Bible?” In another post you said, “These are great words from Nee. Nee said a lot of great things.” I guess you are the one who should answer your question.

“Second. Zeek's quote of Nee, and his teaching that Christians should not be involved in government, can be Biblically disproven by the fact that there are many examples in the Bible of men of God who were involved in government. King David comes to mind. And even Jesus provides an example. He was executed because he was King of the Jews. Doesn't the position of king involve government? Plus, Jesus said the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Again, isn't that government?

Then, according to the Bible, we've got both God and Jesus sitting on thrones.

So Nee was wrong, concerning Christians and government, according to the Bible.”


Here you have proved that David (a Jew) ruled as king of Israel. (Are we talking about Christians or not?)

You have proved that Jesus was the King of Israel. Yes, and this is what he told Pilate, “Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here." If His kingdom was not of this world, then should Christians rule as kings (or as presidents) in this world? Jesus answer seems to reject this thought.

Joh 18:37 Pilate asked him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and I came into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is committed to the truth listens to my voice." Here the Lord Jesus continues to show Pilate the kind of king He was (at His first coming). His job was to testify to the truth. Should this be our job, too?
So, the Lord Jesus was a king, but did He really reigned as such? Where was His throne?

Joh_6:15 Then Jesus, realizing that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, withdrew again to the hillside by himself.
What should be our reaction in a similar situation? Shall we accept what the Lord refused?

The Lord is surely the King, and at His second coming He will rule forever and ever.



You have proved that the Lord “Jesus said the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel.”


Here is the verse, “Mat_19:28 Jesus told them, "I tell you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.”
This was a promise that will be fulfilled at the Lord second coming when He will sit on His glorious throne. Could the disciples sit on thrones before He sits on His? Did the disciples reign as kings in the Acts period? When they were persecuted did they proclaim to be kings and so be the only one entitled to rule and judge? Does anyone have in his Bible the Gospel according to King Matthew? Or the 1 & 2 King Peter? Or the 1, 2, & 3 King John?

“Third. I have no quibble with your quote:

WE WILL NEVER SAY THAT WE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! (WATCHMAN NEE)

In fact I proved with the Bible that Nee was wrong.”

Good for you. You “proved with the Bible that Nee was wrong.” Did you?

“Fourth. We're getting our quotes from Living Stream Ministry. So Nee is too connected with Lee, and Lee to Nee.”

Yes, but this should not be a pretext to use the teaching of one to condemn what the other didn't say. Here again I quote the 2 verses:
1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


In conclusion, I tried to answer your disprove. I hope in doing so I didn't hit anyone, in that case I ask your forgiveness.

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today I am quoting from the ISV (no particular reason). If you have something against this version let me know.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

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Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
Joh 18:23 Jesus answered him, "If I have said anything wrong, tell me what it was. But if I have told the truth, why do you hit me?"



Could this verse be used in our discussion? Can we just tell what the wrong was without hitting the person who spoke (Nee in this case)? It seems to me, that the tendency is not to prove but just to hit.
Your statement reinforces what I already proposed below, i.e. that we judge Nee's propositions not Nee. Now if Jesus or the authors of the Bible thought it was wrong for Christians to hold political office, why didn't they just say so directly? Why beat around the bush?

Nee states "A government officer is one who executes the law. The laws in the world are based on justice, and all transgressors have to be punished. However, the principle of conduct of Christians today is mercy (Matt. 5:38-48). Can world politics act according to the teaching on the Mount? The words "do not judge, that you be not judged" (Matt. 7:1) have forever disqualified believers from interfering with politics or being executors of law."

If mercy is the principle that Jesus taught us to practice, then why not practice it in every sphere of life including government? Didn't Jesus expect his followers to bring the practice of the Kingdom of God to the world? Wouldn't practicing mercy in government be doing exactly that?

According to Nee's teaching, since Jesus' principle is mercy we should avoid situations where think mercy is inappropriate. According to Nee then, should we just avoid people and situations where we don't wish to show mercy? So, if I don't like you, I should just stay away from you because if I'm around you, I might have to show mercy toward you. Avoidance including avoidance of political office seems to be a poor standard of practice for Christian life that would lead to social isolation rather then bringing the Kingdom of God into the world like Jesus did.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:46 AM   #25
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
Joh 18:23 Jesus answered him, "If I have said anything wrong, tell me what it was. But if I have told the truth, why do you hit me?"



Could this verse be used in our discussion? Can we just tell what the wrong was without hitting the person who spoke (Nee in this case)? It seems to me, that the tendency is not to prove but just to hit.

Regarding, “He says one thing and produces another.” Do you refer to Lee? The Lord Jesus said (for example), love your enemy, do not love mammon, etc.. If we fail in obeying His word, should someone be entitled to blame the Lord for the bad result? About Nee's sins, I have not yet investigated or read about it. But if, every time there is an issue about what Nee taught, and the only way to win the argument is always to refer to his sins,(or to what Lee did) then there isn't anything to discuss, we just condemn in toto what he said and that is the end of the story. On the other end, if we are interested in proving from the Bible if what he said is right or wrong, well then let's do it.

Now to your points:

“First. Are you saying that the con of a preacher conman can be dismissed as long as he teaches the Bible?” In another post you said, “These are great words from Nee. Nee said a lot of great things.” I guess you are the one who should answer your question.

“Second. Zeek's quote of Nee, and his teaching that Christians should not be involved in government, can be Biblically disproven by the fact that there are many examples in the Bible of men of God who were involved in government. King David comes to mind. And even Jesus provides an example. He was executed because he was King of the Jews. Doesn't the position of king involve government? Plus, Jesus said the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Again, isn't that government?

Then, according to the Bible, we've got both God and Jesus sitting on thrones.

So Nee was wrong, concerning Christians and government, according to the Bible.”


Here you have proved that David (a Jew) ruled as king of Israel. (Are we talking about Christians or not?)

You have proved that Jesus was the King of Israel. Yes, and this is what he told Pilate, “Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here." If His kingdom was not of this world, then should Christians rule as kings (or as presidents) in this world? Jesus answer seems to reject this thought.

Joh 18:37 Pilate asked him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and I came into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is committed to the truth listens to my voice." Here the Lord Jesus continues to show Pilate the kind of king He was (at His first coming). His job was to testify to the truth. Should this be our job, too?
So, the Lord Jesus was a king, but did He really reigned as such? Where was His throne?

Joh_6:15 Then Jesus, realizing that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, withdrew again to the hillside by himself.
What should be our reaction in a similar situation? Shall we accept what the Lord refused?

The Lord is surely the King, and at His second coming He will rule forever and ever.



You have proved that the Lord “Jesus said the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel.”


Here is the verse, “Mat_19:28 Jesus told them, "I tell you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.”
This was a promise that will be fulfilled at the Lord second coming when He will sit on His glorious throne. Could the disciples sit on thrones before He sits on His? Did the disciples reign as kings in the Acts period? When they were persecuted did they proclaim to be kings and so be the only one entitled to rule and judge? Does anyone have in his Bible the Gospel according to King Matthew? Or the 1 & 2 King Peter? Or the 1, 2, & 3 King John?

“Third. I have no quibble with your quote:

WE WILL NEVER SAY THAT WE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! (WATCHMAN NEE)

In fact I proved with the Bible that Nee was wrong.”

Good for you. You “proved with the Bible that Nee was wrong.” Did you?

“Fourth. We're getting our quotes from Living Stream Ministry. So Nee is too connected with Lee, and Lee to Nee.”

Yes, but this should not be a pretext to use the teaching of one to condemn what the other didn't say. Here again I quote the 2 verses:
1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


In conclusion, I tried to answer your disprove. I hope in doing so I didn't hit anyone, in that case I ask your forgiveness.

________________
Notes:
today I am quoting from the ISV (no particular reason). If you have something against this version let me know.
Well I feel good and beat up. And prolly deserve it. But actually, brother TAT has set me straight. And as Nee taught, we should admit it when we're wrong.

So, Nee is right, Christians should not be in government. That means, those running for office today, that claim to be Christian, are not living by Biblical teachings.

Good job TAT.

Okay, let's move on to a question that came up in our discussion. Did Watchman Nee claim to be the MOTA?

I know Lee did, cuz I was booted out over it. So from where did Lee get that notion? Did it come from Nee, or did Lee make it up?

If there's continuing interest in this, we can prolly get down to the truth of the matter.

More if interested.

Thanks TAT.
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Old 02-16-2016, 01:47 PM   #26
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Your statement reinforces what I already proposed below, i.e. that we judge Nee's propositions not Nee. Now if Jesus or the authors of the Bible thought it was wrong for Christians to hold political office, why didn't they just say so directly? Why beat around the bush?
Nee was gifted at waxing flamboyant with scripture. Not just with this minor concern, of Christians and government, but with his flagship doctrine ; that of the ground of the church. Nowhere in the New Testament is the doctrine or principle of one church one city explicitly developed. Nee embellished it into an extra-Biblical doctrine and dogma, and made it the bases of his movement.

Same with the MOTA ... that we've yet to discuss.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:25 PM   #27
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To TAT,

You say:

You have proved that Jesus was the King of Israel. Yes, and this is what he told Pilate, “Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here." If His kingdom was not of this world, then should Christians rule as kings (or as presidents) in this world? Jesus answer seems to reject this thought.

But then, if historically factual, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey:

Joh 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt!"
.
Publicly displaying that he's the king of the Jews. His kingdom then would be of this world, and a government figure, by more than implication.

It's interesting that both not of this world, and king of the jews appear in the gospel of john:

Joh 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt!"

Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?"
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."


So we're back to Nee being Biblically wrong. To bad he's not here to admit to it.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:19 PM   #28
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DID NEE REMAIN THAT HUMBLE?



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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Was the teaching you shared an early one? Did Nee remain that humble? If he claimed to be the minister of his age, what possible meaning could that title have if he admits that anything he teaches could be wrong and that we ought not follow him blindly? If you accept that a guy is God's sole minister of the age, aren't you obligated to follow him blindly? Of course, why anyone would accept that claim from anybody is another question.
Not Taking What We See Today
as the Whole Truth

We cannot judge God's word by what we see in this age. What we see today is still limited. Perhaps fifty years from now, other brothers will rise up to say that we are in darkness. We only wish we could climb higher than we are to see God's word. Just as we are not saved and then regenerated, in the same way we do not first receive an individual life and then come to realize the Body life. Just as salvation and regeneration happen at the same time, the realization of the individual life and the Body life happen at the same time (Acts 9:17-18). In every age there are truths of that age. There are also errors of that age. We cannot make the truth of an age become an error just because we do not have enough knowledge about that truth. Take again the example of baptism and the laying on of hands. The two things should happen at the same time. After a person is baptized, he should immediately experience the laying on of hands, and he should immediately be brought to see the coordination, the Body, and be joined to the brothers and sisters. Due to the fact that some truths were recovered first and some later, men set a sequence to the order of the truth. This is wrong. This is why we cannot consider what we have seen today as the whole truth, nor can we judge God's word by our own experience. Never forget that we are ministers of God's word.
(Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 57: The Resumption of Watchman Nee's Ministry, Chapter 6, Section 2) [emphasis added](These words were spoken in 1948).

I am not sure if this can answer your question. I will still look for more.
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Old 02-17-2016, 06:29 AM   #29
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DID NEE REMAIN THAT HUMBLE?





Not Taking What We See Today
as the Whole Truth

We cannot judge God's word by what we see in this age. What we see today is still limited. Perhaps fifty years from now, other brothers will rise up to say that we are in darkness. We only wish we could climb higher than we are to see God's word. Just as we are not saved and then regenerated, in the same way we do not first receive an individual life and then come to realize the Body life. Just as salvation and regeneration happen at the same time, the realization of the individual life and the Body life happen at the same time (Acts 9:17-18). In every age there are truths of that age. There are also errors of that age. We cannot make the truth of an age become an error just because we do not have enough knowledge about that truth. Take again the example of baptism and the laying on of hands. The two things should happen at the same time. After a person is baptized, he should immediately experience the laying on of hands, and he should immediately be brought to see the coordination, the Body, and be joined to the brothers and sisters. Due to the fact that some truths were recovered first and some later, men set a sequence to the order of the truth. This is wrong. This is why we cannot consider what we have seen today as the whole truth, nor can we judge God's word by our own experience. Never forget that we are ministers of God's word.
(Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 57: The Resumption of Watchman Nee's Ministry, Chapter 6, Section 2) [emphasis added](These words were spoken in 1948).

I am not sure if this can answer your question. I will still look for more.
Interesting. I remember Witness Lee saying the same kind of thing from time to time.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
The Resumption of Watchman Nee's Ministry,
But why was Nee being humble?

Talking about the resumption of Nee's ministry, in 1942 was the "SCA Storm" as it was called. It was when Nee was dis-fellowhipped for scandals with a couple of sisters:

"After his arrest, Nee disclosed the names of the two victims, MYC and ZQN. Not until 1956 did we know of Nee’s affair with ZQN. Yet the discovery of his affair was the underlying cause of the “SCA Storm” in 1942."
~ Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 2061-2063). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

After the SCA Storm and with many coworkers alienated from him, Nee had nowhere to go but back to his hometown, Fuzhou.
~Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 2928-2929). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

Then in 1949 Witness talked Nee back. So of course Nee would be humble.

The Prelude to Nee’s Resumption
Witness Lee Convinced coworkers to Accept Nee Lee was unswervingly loyal to Nee. He realized there were bitter feelings toward Nee among SCA leaders because of the “SCA Storm in 1942.”(1) Upon his arrival Nanjing and Shanghai, he talked to most of the senior coworkers, including Li Yuanru, Zhang Yuzhi, Xu Dawei (David Hsu), Du Zhongchen, and Yu Chenghua. He persuaded them by saying that the cause of their spiritual back-sliding was their focusing on “Was something truly wrong with Watchman Nee?” They forgot to show gratitude to Nee for his spiritual help. Also, he repeatedly emphasized: “The issue is of ‘the Tree of Knowledge’ versus ‘the Tree of Life.’”
Kinnear writes: Already in 1946 Witness Lee had challenged the Shanghai elders: “Were you in the Spirit when you made the decision to reject him? And what was the effect? Can you say it brought life?” “No,” they had replied sorrowfully to each question.(2)
The coworkers accepted Lee’s viewpoint of “considering ‘life,’ but not ‘the knowledge of good and evil.’” The previous grudge was then resolved.

Lee and Wang Prompted the Resumption of Nee
Witness Lee and Wang Peizhen were eager to have Nee returning to his ministry. Lee said: By being in Shanghai again, I had much opportunity to see Brother Nee after a separation of more than six years. .*.*. Also, at this time Peace Wang [Wang Peizhen] and I were concerned for the recovery of Watchman’s ministry. For this reason we both took every opportunity to have fellowship with him.*.*.*. We presented to him the urgent need to resume his ministry because of the restoration of the church in Shanghai and the wide doors opened in new fields. I asked him to resume his ministry, but he told me that because of certain rebellious brothers, his ministering spirit would not allow him to minister to the church in Shanghai. I realized from this that in order to recover his ministry, there was the crucial need of a revival among us.(3)
~Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 857-859). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.


So Nee was being humble because he was like a little boy coming back after being punished.
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Old 02-17-2016, 08:01 PM   #31
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To zeek “Your statement reinforces what I already proposed below, i.e. that we judge Nee's propositions not Nee.”

Isn't that the purpose of this (your) thread?


“Now if Jesus or the authors of the Bible thought it was wrong for Christians to hold political office, why didn't they just say so directly? Why beat around the bush?”


You could turn your question around and ask, Now if Jesus or the authors of the Bible thought it was right for Christians to hold political office, why didn't they just say so directly? Why beat around the bush? Of course the answer is a bit more complicated.

“Or second, He might command the angels to proclaim His word. The Bible does record some instances of angels delivering the word of God, but these are very rare and only used as an exceptional or emergency measure. This is not the normal and regular way of God’s speaking. Nevertheless, should it please God to propagate His word by the angels, He could simply compile many articles similar to the Ten Commandments and command the angels to deliver them to men to learn. No personal experience would be involved, and no human error would be possible. We might think this would eliminate many theological problems, arguments, and heresies. How simple it would be if God’s word were reduced to the form of a law of five or six hundred articles. By hearing or reading these items men would know God’s word in total. Perhaps many believe that the Bible would be easier to comprehend if it were one thousand one hundred and eighty-six articles instead of that many chapters. It would not be unlike a handbook of Christianity. A quick glance would give a general summary of the Christian faith. But God has not so done.” The Ministry of God's Word, chapter 2, page 21, Watchman Nee, Christian Fellowship Publishers, Inc. New York Copyright ©1971[emphasis added]


A New Testament believer prays, gives thanks, praises, or seeks after the Lord without the need of a prophet to act on his behalf. The greatest blessing for a New Testament believer is the ability to receive the leading of the Holy Spirit, as Hebrews 8:11 says, "And they shall by no means each teach his fellow citizen and each his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all will know Me from the little one to the great one among them." We have many fellow citizens and brothers, but there is no need for them to teach us, saying, "Know the Lord." We have the Holy Spirit within us. The Spirit is our prophet today. In the Old Testament there was Nathan, Gad, and many other prophets, in addition to many "fellow citizens." But in the New Testament, we do not need all these "fellow citizens" to teach and guide us......A prophet cannot give anyone personal guidance; this is the essence of the New Testament. In the New Testament there are no personal prophets. Everyone can know God directly and be led of God and know God's will directly. Do you have a prophet? I am ashamed that many people have considered me a prophet, that is, the kind of personal prophet mentioned above. The danger of a worker is to burden himself with the work of a prophet. When there are too many personal prophets, the proper place of the new testament prophet is annulled. The New Testament church does not need any spiritual giants to act as personal prophets to teach others what they should do. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the work of the prophets. The main work of the new testament prophets is for building up, encouraging, and consoling men. This is the work that God's workers should do today.”
(Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 2) Vol. 42: Conferences, Messages, and Fellowship (2), Chapter 3, Section 1)[emphasis added]


“Nee states "A government officer is one who executes the law. The laws in the world are based on justice, and all transgressors have to be punished. However, the principle of conduct of Christians today is mercy (Matt. 5:38-48). Can world politics act according to the teaching on the Mount? The words "do not judge, that you be not judged" (Matt. 7:1) have forever disqualified believers from interfering with politics or being executors of law."

“If mercy is the principle that Jesus taught us to practice, then why not practice it in every sphere of life including government? Didn't Jesus expect his followers to bring the practice of the Kingdom of God to the world? Wouldn't practicing mercy in government be doing exactly that?”


This is what in a 2006 speech, then-Sen. Barack Obama, in a mocking way, said, “Jesus' Sermon on the Mount was so radical the Defense Department wouldn't survive its application.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWpAQDx1iVQ

What shall a Christian do if, being the president of a country, he faces war? Shall he follow the Lord Jesus teaching, “But *I* say unto you, not to resist evil; but whoever shall strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other”, and so condemn to death millions of his own people, who probably do not share his belief, or shall he use the sword and in so doing going against the Lord's commandments and his own conscience?


“According to Nee's teaching, since Jesus' principle is mercy we should avoid situations where think mercy is inappropriate. According to Nee then, should we just avoid people and situations where we don't wish to show mercy? So, if I don't like you, I should just stay away from you because if I'm around you, I might have to show mercy toward you. Avoidance including avoidance of political office seems to be a poor standard of practice for Christian life that would lead to social isolation rather then bringing the Kingdom of God into the world like Jesus did.”


I am not sure what you are saying. Could you clarify, just for me, please.


Many Christians had a strong aversion about politics, (Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, the Brethren, Nee, etc..)

“I owe no duty to forum, campaign, or senate. I stay awake for no public function. I make no effort to occupy a platform. I am no office seeker. I have no desire to smell out political corruption. I shun the voter’s booth, the juryman’s bench. I break no laws and push no lawsuits; I will not serve as a magistrate or judge. I refuse to do military service. I desire to rule over no one – I have withdrawn from worldly politics! Now my only politics is spiritual – how that I might be anxious for nothing except to root out all worldly anxieties and care.”- Tertullian

In us, all ardor in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead. So we have no pressing inducement to take part in your public meetings. Nor is there anything more entirely foreign to us than affairs of state. – Tertullian

Celsus also urges us to “take office in the government of the country, if that is required for the maintenance of the laws and the support of religion.” But we recognise in each state the existence of another national organization founded by the Word of God, and we exhort those who are mighty in word and of blameless life to rule over Churches. Those who are ambitious of ruling we reject; but we constrain those who, through excess of modesty, are not easily induced to take a public charge in the Church of God. And those who rule over us well are under the constraining influence of the great King, whom we believe to be the Son of God, God the Word. And if those who govern in the Church, and are called rulers of the divine nation–that is, the Church–rule well, they rule in accordance with the divine commands, and never suffer themselves to be led astray by worldly policy. And it is not for the purpose of escaping public duties that Christians decline public offices, but that they may reserve themselves for a diviner and more necessary service in the Church of God–for the salvation of men. And this service is at once necessary and right. They take charge of all–of those that are within, that they may day by day lead better lives, and of those that are without, that they may come to abound in holy words and in deeds of piety; and that, while thus worshipping God truly, and training up as many as they can in the same way, they may be filled with the word of God and the law of God, and thus be united with the Supreme God through His Son the Word, Wisdom, Truth, and Righteousness, who unites to God all who are resolved to conform their lives in all things to the law of God. – Origen

http://unsettledchristianity.com/the...ublic-service/



Still, every Christian should decide by/for himself, according to the Word and the leading of the Spirit (and his own conscience).

Col 3:1 If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God: Col 3:2 have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:50 PM   #32
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To awareness
“So we're back to Nee being Biblically wrong. To bad he's not here to admit to it.”
First, you have to prove that he was wrong on this point, then I am sure if he was here he would gladly admit to it.




“But then, if historically factual, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey:
Joh 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt!"
Publicly displaying that he's the king of the Jews. His kingdom then would be of this world, and a
government figure, by more than implication.”
'Now, do I understand you correctly, with this one verse you are proving that Christians should be involved in politic, in government office, etc.? Should you not provide at least two witnesses?

But, again, you are proving that the Lord Jesus was/is a King. On this point, let me assure you, I know no Christian who would object to it. The Magi from the East, and the Romans (Pilate) from the West, recognized Him as the king of the Jews, in accord with the tenor of the Gospel of Matthew. Those who didn't accept Him as Messiah-King were the Jews.

Joh 19:14 (now it was the preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour and he [Pilate] says to the Jews, Behold your king!
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Take him away, take him away, crucify him. Pilate says to them, Shall I crucify your king? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.


Act 3:13 The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus, whom *ye* delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when *he* had judged that he should be let go.
Act 3:14 But *ye* denied the holy and righteous one, and asked that a man that was a murderer should be granted to you;

Furthermore, let's look at Luke 19:11-27, “But as they were listening to these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem and they thought that the kingdom of God was about to be immediately manifested. He said therefore, A certain high-born man went to a distant country to receive for himself a kingdom and return. And having called his own ten bondmen, he gave to them ten minas, and said to them, Trade while I am coming. But his citizens hated him, and sent an embassy after him, saying, We will not that this man should reign over us. And it came to pass on his arrival back again, having received the kingdom, that he desired these bondmen to whom he gave the money to be called to him, in order that he might know what every one had gained by trading. And the first came up, saying, My Lord, thy mina has produced ten minas.
And he said to him, Well done , thou good bondman; because thou hast been faithful in that which is least, be thou in authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, My Lord, thy mina has made five minas. And he said also to this one, And *thou*, be over five cities. And another came, saying, My Lord, lo, there is thy mina, which I have kept laid up in a towel. For I feared thee because thou art a harsh man: thou takest up what thou hast not laid down, and thou reapest what thou hast not sowed. He says to him, Out of thy mouth will I judge thee, wicked bondman: thou knewest that *I* am a harsh man, taking up what I have not laid down and reaping what I have not sowed. And why didst thou not give my money to the bank; and *I* should have received it, at my coming, with interest? And he said to those that stood by, Take from him the mina and give it to him who has the ten minas. And they said to him, Lord, he has ten minas. For I say unto you, that to every one that has shall be given; but from him that has not, that even which he has shall be taken from him. Moreover those mine enemies, who would not have me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.”


What I understand from this parable (you might have another understanding, I don't know) we see this:

1. He said this parable because many believed the kingdom of God was going to be manifested (it didn't happen).
2. The Lord Jesus had to go first in a far away country to get the kingdom and to return.
3. His disciples/believers had to exercise, trade, their talents.
4. At Christ's return He will reward His servant. Then, and only then, they shall rule over cities.
5. He will be avenged of His enemy.

He will exercise His right to reign at His second coming, and so will his disciples.



That He would be rejected at His first coming we can see it from the story of Joseph and Moses, too.

Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and told it to his brethren, and they hated him yet the more. And he said to them, Hear, I pray you, this dream, which I have dreamt: Behold, we were binding sheaves in the fields, and lo, my sheaf rose up, and remained standing; and behold, your sheaves came round about and bowed down to my sheaf. And his brethren said to him, Wilt thou indeed be a king over us? wilt thou indeed rule over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams and for his words.

His brothers sold him. Later, in a “distant country” he became the second in power. After that his brothers bowed to him.

Concerning Moses we read, Act 7:23 And when a period of forty years was fulfilled to him, it came into his heart to look upon his brethren, the sons of Israel;
Act 7:24 and seeing a certain one wronged, he defended him , and avenged him that was being oppressed, smiting the Egyptian.
Act 7:25 For he thought that his brethren would understand that God by his hand was giving them deliverance. But they understood not.”

Moses, too, went to a “distant country” Act 7:30 And when forty years were fulfilled, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai, in a flame of fire of a bush...and now, come, I will send thee to Egypt.
Act 7:35 This Moses, whom they refused, saying, Who made thee ruler and judge? him did God send to be a ruler and deliverer with the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush.


It is interesting that the Lord Jesus himself quoted this same words in the Gospel of Luke 12:13-14, Luk 12:13 “And a person said to him out of the crowd, Teacher, speak to my brother to divide the inheritance with me.
Luk 12:14 But he said to him, Man, who established me as a judge or a divider over you?”

Being the King of the Jews, why did he refuse to judge?


Another case.


Pro 20:8 A king sitting on the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.

Pro 14:35 The king's favour is toward a wise servant; but his wrath is against him that causeth shame.

Pro 20:26 A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.

In the Gospel of John we have a famous story.
Joh 12:3 Mary therefore, having taken a pound of ointment of pure nard of great price, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair, and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Joh 12:4 One of his disciples therefore, Judas son of Simon, Iscariote, who was about to deliver him up, says,
Joh 12:5 Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?
Joh 12:6 But he said this, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and had the bag, and carried what was put into it .
Joh 12:7 Jesus therefore said, Suffer her to have kept this for the day of my preparation for burial;
Joh 12:8 for ye have the poor always with you, but me ye have not always.

Did the Lord Jesus judge Judas? Shouldn't this be the case for those who hold a government office? Shall he condone thieves, murderers, etc.?

There will be a time for His judgment.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; and he treads the wine-press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 And he has upon his garment, and upon his thigh, a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords.


And for His kingdom to come.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded his trumpet: and there were great voices in the heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come, and he shall reign to the ages of ages.
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 saying, We give thee thanks, Lord God Almighty, He who is, and who was, that thou hast taken thy great power and hast reigned.


May He come quickly.
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Old 02-17-2016, 11:11 PM   #33
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To zeek “Your statement reinforces what I already proposed below, i.e. that we judge Nee's propositions not Nee.”

Isn't that the purpose of this (your) thread?


“Now if Jesus or the authors of the Bible thought it was wrong for Christians to hold political office, why didn't they just say so directly? Why beat around the bush?”


You could turn your question around and ask, Now if Jesus or the authors of the Bible thought it was right for Christians to hold political office, why didn't they just say so directly? Why beat around the bush? Of course the answer is a bit more complicated.
Gee I don't know...could it be that God allows humans free will and doesn't coerce them or is that a foreign concept to you?

Quote:
“Or second, He might command the angels to proclaim His word. The Bible does record some instances of angels delivering the word of God, but these are very rare and only used as an exceptional or emergency measure.
Right after you figure out how many angels fit on the head of a pin you'll figure out the answer to this angel question.

Quote:
This is not the normal and regular way of God’s speaking.
What exactly is the NORMAL AND REGULAR way of God's speaking? It seems pretty normal for him to be silent outside of the Bible for most people.

Quote:
This is what in a 2006 speech, then-Sen. Barack Obama, in a mocking way, said, “Jesus' Sermon on the Mount was so radical the Defense Department wouldn't survive its application.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWpAQDx1iVQ What shall a Christian do if, being the president of a country, he faces war? Shall he follow the Lord Jesus teaching, “But *I* say unto you, not to resist evil; but whoever shall strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other”, and so condemn to death millions of his own people, who probably do not share his belief, or shall he use the sword and in so doing going against the Lord's commandments and his own conscience?
“Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

[Ironically, most Right-wing Christians these days are war hawks who would agree that national defense cannot be run on a policy of love, mercy and forgiveness if it wasn't Barack Obama making the proposition. There is also a smaller group who are of the libertarian-isolationist persuasion like Ron and Rand Paul]


Quote:
Still, every Christian should decide by/for himself, according to the Word and the leading of the Spirit (and his own conscience).
Exactly
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:34 PM   #34
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To awareness
“So we're back to Nee being Biblically wrong. To bad he's not here to admit to it.”
First, you have to prove that he was wrong on this point, then I am sure if he was here he would gladly admit to it.
Did Jesus tell the tax collectors that he hung with to get out of gov'ment?
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:37 AM   #35
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Did Jesus tell the tax collectors that he hung with to get out of gov'ment?

No, He didn't.
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:09 AM   #36
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Did Jesus tell the tax collectors that he hung with to get out of gov'ment?
I wish He would hang out with some of those IRS agents.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:49 AM   #37
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So have we shown that Nee was wrong concerning the gov'ment ... according to even Jesus?
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:08 PM   #38
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If the kingdom of God is within us as Jesus said didn't Christianity betray this crucial insight early on, whether by transferring the kingdom into the next world world and thereby devaluing this life, or by becoming political and seeking salvation through organizations, sacraments, and the clergy?
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:32 PM   #39
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If the kingdom of God is within us as Jesus said didn't Christianity betray this crucial insight early on, whether by transferring the kingdom into the next world world and thereby devaluing this life, or by becoming political and seeking salvation through organizations, sacraments, and the clergy?
YES

The kingdom is first and foremost right here among us because it is in us. And what is seen of that kingdom is what we display. If we display political ambition and a desire to criminalize/marginalize everyone that does not follow our God, then that is what is seen of that Kingdom in this life.

If we cannot find the way to display the Kingdom that Jesus taught, then we are going to be very surprised by what comes our way in the next age since we really didn't understand it in the first place.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:21 PM   #40
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THE SILENCE OF SCRIPTURE


Originally Posted by awareness:

Did Jesus tell the tax collectors that he hung with to get out of gov'ment?


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Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
No, He didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
So have we shown that Nee was wrong concerning the gov'ment ... according to even Jesus?


Proving something from what Jesus didn't say can lead to very dangerous conclusions. If we apply the same kind of reasoning awareness used to prove Nee wrong (and with Nee many, many servants of God, from the church fathers to Spurgeon, etc.) then we can show:

1. That Jesus was for soldiers, the army, for the sword, for war, for killing people, etc., because he didn't tell the centurion to leave the army (Mat. 8:5-13).

2. That Jesus was for thieves, for stealing, because He didn't tell Judah not to steal money from the bag he carried (John 12:6).

3. That Jesus didn't care about sinning, because when He healed the sick of palsy and forgave his sins He didn't tell him to sin no more (Mat. 9:2-7).

4. That Jesus was for worldly government (even for Caesar's kingdom, because the tax collectors worked for Rome) and for sinners! (because in the same passage where He didn't say to the tax collectors to leave their job, He didn't say, either, to the sinners to sin no more) (Mat. 9:9-13)

Other things could be added to the list, but I think everyone can see the absurdity of these conclusions.

JESUS THE FRIENDS OF SINNERS

It is very interesting how Jesus came in contact with tax collectors (or publicans).

Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (KJV)

Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. Luk 5:28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.Luk 5:29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them. Luk 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. Mar 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. Mar 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

It is the call of Matthew (or Levi). Jesus called Matthew to follow Him, and so he left his job. He didn't serve the Lord part time. Jesus was a friends of tax collectors and sinners, but He made sure that among His disciples there were no tax collectors.


THE CHURCH'S (BELIEVERS) ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE WORLD (SINNERS)


1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Am I wrong if I understand that Paul was saying that we can have sinners friends in this world, but not sinners brothers in the church? If that is correct isn't this what the Lord Jesus did in the Gospels? He was the friend of sinners (tax collectors included) but in the church (His disciples) the story is different.

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:46 AM   #41
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TAT, you are so serious. But a lot of fun. Except your posts are like doing homework. But you're so intriguing they're worth the read.

So now, we come back full circle to the conclusion that Nee was right : get out of gov'ment. Did you get that zeek?

And then we learn that Paul advocated staying away from sinning brothers (and sisters, surely, we're left to presume).

Which means we can't keep company with brother zeek, who worked for the gov'ment more than 3 decades. But it's to late for me. I already love the brother before finding all this out. And how do you unlove someone?

But ... if we take all of Paul's admonitions then, we'd have to stay away from pretty much everyone (since elsewhere he says, "all have sinned and come short ...") That would mean we should all become anchorites.

Are you an anchorite bro TAT? Except for the internet, I pretty much am.

And I never worked for the gov'ment to boot. But I've sinned in other ways. So ... best to stay away from me.

What say ye, all of you?
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:44 PM   #42
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THE SILENCE OF SCRIPTURE


Originally Posted by awareness:

Did Jesus tell the tax collectors that he hung with to get out of gov'ment?

Proving something from what Jesus didn't say can lead to very dangerous conclusions. If we apply the same kind of reasoning awareness used to prove Nee wrong (and with Nee many, many servants of God, from the church fathers to Spurgeon, etc.) then we can show:

1. That Jesus was for soldiers, the army, for the sword, for war, for killing people, etc., because he didn't tell the centurion to leave the army (Mat. 8:5-13).

2. That Jesus was for thieves, for stealing, because He didn't tell Judah not to steal money from the bag he carried (John 12:6).

3. That Jesus didn't care about sinning, because when He healed the sick of palsy and forgave his sins He didn't tell him to sin no more (Mat. 9:2-7).

4. That Jesus was for worldly government (even for Caesar's kingdom, because the tax collectors worked for Rome) and for sinners! (because in the same passage where He didn't say to the tax collectors to leave their job, He didn't say, either, to the sinners to sin no more) (Mat. 9:9-13)

Other things could be added to the list, but I think everyone can see the absurdity of these conclusions.
Indeed.

Quote:
JESUS THE FRIENDS OF SINNERS

It is very interesting how Jesus came in contact with tax collectors (or publicans).

Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (KJV)

Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. Luk 5:28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.Luk 5:29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them. Luk 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. Mar 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. Mar 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

It is the call of Matthew (or Levi). Jesus called Matthew to follow Him, and so he left his job. He didn't serve the Lord part time. Jesus was a friends of tax collectors and sinners, but He made sure that among His disciples there were no tax collectors.


THE CHURCH'S (BELIEVERS) ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE WORLD (SINNERS)


1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Am I wrong if I understand that Paul was saying that we can have sinners friends in this world, but not sinners brothers in the church? If that is correct isn't this what the Lord Jesus did in the Gospels? He was the friend of sinners (tax collectors included) but in the church (His disciples) the story is different.
Paul's teaching is different then Jesus' teaching. Paul's seems the more practical of the two. But, time showed that it wasn't. That a church without sinners is empty has been proven over and over throughout it's history. Paul's teaching always leads to the sinners of the church in-crowd "putting away" the sinners of the out-crowd. If you associate with humans, you associate with sinners.

In point of fact, Jesus was overturning the purity customs and laws of his society. He ate with the cast-offs, the dregs, the untouchables. Everybody was welcome at the "Lord's table" and that was a radical rejection of the dominant culture which consisted of the Romans and the Jews who collaborated with them. We could call that "anti-political" but to be anti-political in that sense has profound political implications which is probably why they crucified Jesus.

Quote:
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
It's unlikely that historical Jesus taught that. It's based on Deut. 19:15:
Quote:
“A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.
It probably reflects a useful standard of evidence that "Matthew's" church used in the process of settling disputes.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:20 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
If the kingdom of God is within us as Jesus said didn't Christianity betray this crucial insight early on, whether by transferring the kingdom into the next world world and thereby devaluing this life, or by becoming political and seeking salvation through organizations, sacraments, and the clergy?
The Gospel of Thomas V. (3)

"Yeshua said,
If your leaders tell you, “Look, the kingdom is in heaven,”
then the birds of heaven will precede you.
If they say to you, “It’s in the sea,”
then the fish will precede you.
But the kingdom is inside you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will understand that you are children of the living father.
But if you do not know yourselves,
then you dwell in poverty and you are poverty."

V (113)

"His students said to him,
When will the kingdom come?

Yeshua said,
It will not come because you are watching for it.
No one will announce, “Look, here it is,”
or “Look, there it is.”
The father’s kingdom is spread out upon the earth
and people do not see it."

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Old 02-24-2016, 07:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

THE CHURCH AND THE SINNING BROTHERS


Let's consider few passages:

1Co 5:11 but now I write unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.

1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they which practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children;
Eph 5:2 and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odour of a sweet smell.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, which is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them;

Rev 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.


Some are concerned that if we apply these verses the church would be empty. True. Even people like

Noah, who “drank of the wine, and was drunken” (Gen. 9:21),
David who committed adultery and murdered an innocent man (2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the word of the LORD, to do that which is evil in his sight? thou hast smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.)
Peter, who denied the Lord three times (Mat_26:75 And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.), and
John, who for two times bowed down to worship (did he really worship him?) an angel (Rev 19:10 And I fell down before his feet to worship him. And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 22:8 And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow- servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them which keep the words of this book: worship God.), would have to be removed from its midst (and would have no part in the kingdom of God).

Now it is clear from the Word that David, Peter an John (can we include Noah?) would be in the kingdom of God, and even have a prominent position. So what did Paul mean in his epistles when he listed those sinners? He was referring to people (brothers) who didn't not just slip few times in an horrible sin, but that habitually were living and practicing them ( that they which practise such things, Ga:5:21).

Noah was drunken, he was not a drunkard.
David committed adultery and killed an innocent man, he did not practice those sins as his habit (he repented, see Ps. 51)
Peter denied the Lord once (three times), it was not his practice to deny the Lord (see how he testified to the high priest, Acts 4), and he repented.
John fell two times in trying to worship an angel, it was not his practice to worship other beings).


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.


WHAT, THEN, IS THE PURPOSE OF THE CHURCH'S DISCIPLINE.

The church should be holy as God is holy. It cannot tolerate a brother who lives continually in sin. The church should admonish the sinning person few times first, but if he/she doesn't listen to the church, the church cannot have fellowship with the sinning one.

This seems so tragic, but there is still hope. Hope that the brother would repent and be reinstated in the fellowship. That seems the case with the sinning brother in 1 Co. 5. Let's see what happened.

2Co 2:1 But I determined this for myself, that I would not come again to you with sorrow.
2Co 2:2 For if I make you sorry, who then is he that maketh me glad, but he that is made sorry by me?
2Co 2:3 And I wrote this very thing, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
2Co 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be made sorry, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
2Co 2:5 But if any hath caused sorrow, he hath caused sorrow, not to me, but in part (that I press not too heavily) to you all.
2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the many;
2Co 2:7 so that contrariwise ye should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you to confirm your love toward him.
2Co 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye are obedient in all things.
2Co 2:10 But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the person of Christ;
2Co 2:11 that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

From this passage, the sinning brother in 1 Co. 5, after been “punished” he repented with much sorrow. So Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth to “confirm your love toward him”, to forgive in the person of Christ .

The church's discipline should aim at regaining the sinning brother.
Praise the Lord for the forgiveness, and for the love of the saints!
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Old 02-25-2016, 04:35 PM   #45
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Good post. But is it about Politics and the Church?
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:44 PM   #46
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TAT,

Paul's got more books in the New Testament than Jesus, even if we discount the disputed books.

So the church ended up becoming more Paul than Jesus. And so has lost track of Jesus.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:23 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Good post. But is it about Politics and the Church?
What can I say? I agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
TAT,

Paul's got more books in the New Testament than Jesus, even if we discount the disputed books.

So the church ended up becoming more Paul than Jesus. And so has lost track of Jesus.
Do you really believe what you said in your last sentence?
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:39 AM   #48
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Default Re: Politics and the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
THE CHURCH AND THE SINNING BROTHERS


Let's consider few passages:

1Co 5:11 but now I write unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.

1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they which practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children;
Eph 5:2 and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odour of a sweet smell.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, which is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them;

Rev 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.


Some are concerned that if we apply these verses the church would be empty. True. Even people like

Noah, who “drank of the wine, and was drunken” (Gen. 9:21),
David who committed adultery and murdered an innocent man (2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the word of the LORD, to do that which is evil in his sight? thou hast smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.)
Peter, who denied the Lord three times (Mat_26:75 And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.), and
John, who for two times bowed down to worship (did he really worship him?) an angel (Rev 19:10 And I fell down before his feet to worship him. And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 22:8 And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow- servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them which keep the words of this book: worship God.), would have to be removed from its midst (and would have no part in the kingdom of God).

Now it is clear from the Word that David, Peter an John (can we include Noah?) would be in the kingdom of God, and even have a prominent position. So what did Paul mean in his epistles when he listed those sinners? He was referring to people (brothers) who didn't not just slip few times in an horrible sin, but that habitually were living and practicing them ( that they which practise such things, Ga:5:21).

Noah was drunken, he was not a drunkard.
David committed adultery and killed an innocent man, he did not practice those sins as his habit (he repented, see Ps. 51)
Peter denied the Lord once (three times), it was not his practice to deny the Lord (see how he testified to the high priest, Acts 4), and he repented.
John fell two times in trying to worship an angel, it was not his practice to worship other beings).


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.


WHAT, THEN, IS THE PURPOSE OF THE CHURCH'S DISCIPLINE.

The church should be holy as God is holy. It cannot tolerate a brother who lives continually in sin. The church should admonish the sinning person few times first, but if he/she doesn't listen to the church, the church cannot have fellowship with the sinning one.

This seems so tragic, but there is still hope. Hope that the brother would repent and be reinstated in the fellowship. That seems the case with the sinning brother in 1 Co. 5. Let's see what happened.

2Co 2:1 But I determined this for myself, that I would not come again to you with sorrow.
2Co 2:2 For if I make you sorry, who then is he that maketh me glad, but he that is made sorry by me?
2Co 2:3 And I wrote this very thing, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
2Co 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be made sorry, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
2Co 2:5 But if any hath caused sorrow, he hath caused sorrow, not to me, but in part (that I press not too heavily) to you all.
2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the many;
2Co 2:7 so that contrariwise ye should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you to confirm your love toward him.
2Co 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye are obedient in all things.
2Co 2:10 But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the person of Christ;
2Co 2:11 that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

From this passage, the sinning brother in 1 Co. 5, after been “punished” he repented with much sorrow. So Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth to “confirm your love toward him”, to forgive in the person of Christ .

The church's discipline should aim at regaining the sinning brother.
Praise the Lord for the forgiveness, and for the love of the saints!
Look at your post. You NEVER cite Jesus. Do you prefer Paul and John to Jesus? Can you unite the three? Jesus speaks in terms of universal ethics whereas Paul and John speak to the church as if to a special class.
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Old 02-26-2016, 06:26 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness
TAT,

Paul's got more books in the New Testament than Jesus, even if we discount the disputed books.

So the church ended up becoming more Paul than Jesus. And so has lost track of Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAT
Do you really believe what you said in your last sentence?
What bro zeek said.
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by testallthings View Post
Do you really believe what you said in your last sentence?
I don't know about awareness (although I bet I can guess) but I believe it. Not because I think Paul said things incorrectly. But I think we read Paul as if he is the source, therefore do not consider how it is seen through the lens of the gospel as presented by Jesus. Instead we too often read Paul incorrectly, then layer that analysis over the gospel thereby making it into something else.

Lee was a master at this. But at somewhat lesser levels, many Evangelical teachings do some of the same things. We read how it is "by faith alone" and layer that over everything so that we can ignore Jesus' clear command to obey and do. Just one example.

We need to read the gospels, and use that as the lens whereby we read and understand Paul and the others. If Jesus said that how we teach and act under an expanded version of the law has an effect on our place in the kingdom, then to read Paul to say that there is no more law is to misread Paul. Or to read Paul to say that we don't need to try to be righteous (it will just fall on us after we spend enough time sitting around soaking up spiritual stuff) is an error. It is contradictory to the source — God — who said otherwise. Unless your righteousness exceed that of . . . . That requires doing, not soaking.
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Old 02-27-2016, 07:56 AM   #51
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I'm kinda waiting to see if TAT is willing to have a discussion and conversational discourse. So far he's just stuck his toe in.

We don't even know if he was ever in the local church, that came out of Nee and Lee.
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Old 02-28-2016, 12:11 AM   #52
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I have been accused by awareness and zeek to not have quoted the Lord Jesus in one of my last post (like this was a crime). Instead I quoted from Paul and John. In my post number 40 I showed how the Lord Jesus was a friend of sinners and how He made a difference between the sinners of the world and those who sin in the church. I quoted the Lord Jesus' words from Mat. 9:9-13; Luke 5:27-32 and Mk. 2:14-17. I quoted from 1 Cor. 5:9-13 (from Paul) and finally, again the Lord Jesus' words in Mat. 18:17.
(To this verse zeek said, “It's unlikely that historical Jesus taught that. It's based on Deut. 19:15.
What he meant by the “historical Jesus” raised some doubts in me, but I didn't asked him for an explanation. At this point I would like to ask zeek, do you believe the Bible is God's inspired Word. If those in Mat. 18:17 are not the words of the Lord Jesus whose words are they?)
Then, in a following post I continued on the same topic quoting from Paul and John.

Awareness responded with such a comment:

"Paul's got more books in the New Testament than Jesus, even if we discount the disputed books.
So the church ended up becoming more Paul than Jesus. And so has lost track of Jesus."

Now, if you know of books that the Lord Jesus wrote, would you like to share them with us? The Lord Jesus wrote no books and yet all the books are His (or the word of God).

__________________________________________________ ______________________
In my posts I have quoted or given reference to:

Gen. 37:5 Deut. 24:16 Ez. 18:20 Gen. 9:21 2Sam. 12:9 Ps. 51 Pro. 20:8 Pro. 14:35 Pro. 20:26 Mat. 8:5-13 Mat. 9:2-7 Mat. 9:9-13 Mat. 18:17 Mat. 19:28 Mat. 26:75 Mk. 2:14-17 Luke 5:27-32 Luke 19:11-27 Luke 12:13-14 John 6:15 John 2:1-2 John 12:3-8 John 18:23 John 18:37 John 19:14-15 Acts 4 Acts 7:23-25, 30, 35 Acts 13:13-14 1 Cor. 5:9-13 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Gal. 5:19-21 Eph. 5:1-7 Col. 3:1-2 Rev. 11:15-17 Rev. 19:10, 15-16 Rev. 22:8-9

That's about 36 references from 16 books of the Bible of which 3 by Paul.

I quoted Tertullian and Origen and Obama (once), too.

__________________________________________________ ________
Let's see what awareness quoted:

1 Ti. 2:1-3 John 12:15 John 18:35-36 (he mentioned King David and the promise the Lord Jesus gave the 12 to sit on 12 thrones)

Then he quoted the Gospel of Thomas (it is from here that you get to know our Lord Jesus?)

He mentioned Antonin Scalia, Obama (4 times) and a quote from

Brooke Allen. Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers (Kindle Locations 802-805). Kindle Edition.


If you are really concerned about the Lord Jesus why do you quote Him so rarely? And why in your signature you have a quote from Jimi Hendrix and not from the Lord Jesus?
Would you like to explain where did you get your last quote and what it means? It sounds like that there is no need to look for the “historical Jesus” (the same words zeek used commenting on Mat. 18:17) because He never existed, like the false gods of old?)

"Job 25:6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
No amount of intellect or education can grant one immunity where matters of the heart and faith are concerned.
So watch out! There's a serpent in every paradise!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Heroes fail, when you get to know them ... then they fall, just like the gods of old. Why else quest for the historical Jesus?"
__________________________________________________ _______
Now let's see what zeek quoted:

“Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”


And Deut.19:15 to disprove that the words in Matthew 18:17 probably were not uttered by the “historical Jesus”.

Then he mentioned
The first amendment to the US Constitution, Jefferson, right wing Christians, Barack Obama, Ron and Rand Paul.

Not much about the Lord Jesus.


__________________________________________________ ________

OBW,

I don't think Paul is the source. The source is God Himself who spoke in the Son.
The word of the Lord Jesus are the words of God, and so were those of the apostles.

Joh 12:49 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 7:16 Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me.

He also said,


Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you.


If we believe His words then we know that the words of Peter, James, John, Jude and Paul are the word of God.

1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.


You mentioned the importance of doing. It is a very important issue, but before that we should know who we are. Are we Jews? Are we Gentiles? I am a Gentile, and for such as me God prepared and apostle (as He appointed the 12 to send them to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), Paul.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)


1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.


If he was the apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, and he was, he knew exactly how to teach and what to teach to us Gentiles.
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Old 02-28-2016, 07:18 PM   #53
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I have been accused by awareness and zeek to not have quoted the Lord Jesus in one of my last post (like this was a crime). Instead I quoted from Paul and John. In my post number 40 I showed how the Lord Jesus was a friend of sinners and how He made a difference between the sinners of the world and those who sin in the church.
I was referring only to post #44.


Quote:
(To this verse zeek said, “It's unlikely that historical Jesus taught that. It's based on Deut. 19:15.
What he meant by the “historical Jesus” raised some doubts in me, but I didn't asked him for an explanation. At this point I would like to ask zeek, do you believe the Bible is God's inspired Word. If those in Mat. 18:17 are not the words of the Lord Jesus whose words are they?)
In John 10:24, the "Jews" accused Jesus of making them doubt. Jesus is the Word according to John 1:1. The Bible never makes the claim that it is the Word of God. How could it? It was written by a group of authors some of who were unaware of others who's writings would eventually become part of the canon.

Now I'm not certain who wrote the Gospel of Matthew but, as I understand it, it is merely a matter of tradition that it was written by Matthew. If you have better information on that, please, let me know.

Quote:
Now let's see what zeek quoted...Deut.19:15 to disprove that the words in Matthew 18:17 probably were not uttered by the “historical Jesus”.
No, Deut. 19:15 I cited as the probable origin of the principle the author appropriates in Matthew 18:17. You know, the four Gospels never themselves make the claim that they are historically accurate in the modern sense like a news story claims to be. Why do people assume that they are? The short answer for many of us is that it was the indoctrination we received. If we are called on to back it up, we can't. But, maybe you are the exception. So, by all means, make your case for an historically accurate Bible and I'll read it happily.

If Bible stories are not historical they still may embody spiritual truth. We don't suppose that Jesus' parables are literally true and they require us to interpret them metaphorically, but yet convey deep truths. If other Bible stories are parables, that doesn't necessarily make them less meaningful, does it? Witness Lee used to give allegorical interpretations of what had been previously viewed by most fundamentalists as merely factual historical accounts. Whether you agree with his interpretation or not, he did demonstrate that the stories have meaning on another level than the mere historical-factual one.

Lee also drew our attention to passages in which Paul allegorized the Old Testament. For example, Lee notes that "an example of this insight is Paul's allegorizing Sarah, Abraham's wife, and Hagar, Abraham's concubine, as two covenants (Gal. 4:22-26). Apart from Paul's allegorizing of these women in Galatians 4, we could read Genesis again and again without seeing that Sarah and Hagar signify two covenants." (Life-Study of Acts, Chapter 64, Section 1) Allegorizing is a method of interpretation that is effective for interpreting Greek and other pagan mythologies despite the fact that few people take them to be literally historical. To what degree can Bible stories be demonstrated more accurate than Greek myths? Doesn't each story have to be evaluated in terms of what can be verified by independent historical documents? So, for example the claim that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified has some independent historical documentation although none that is contemporary with him whereas the story of him raising Lazarus from the dead has none even in the other Gospels.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAT
Let's see what awareness quoted:

1 Ti. 2:1-3 John 12:15 John 18:35-36 (he mentioned King David and the promise the Lord Jesus gave the 12 to sit on 12 thrones)

Then he quoted the Gospel of Thomas (it is from here that you get to know our Lord Jesus?)

He mentioned Antonin Scalia, Obama (4 times) and a quote from

Brooke Allen. Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers (Kindle Locations 802-805). Kindle Edition.


If you are really concerned about the Lord Jesus why do you quote Him so rarely? And why in your signature you have a quote from Jimi Hendrix and not from the Lord Jesus?
Would you like to explain where did you get your last quote and what it means? It sounds like that there is no need to look for the “historical Jesus” (the same words zeek used commenting on Mat. 18:17) because He never existed, like the false gods of old?)

"Job 25:6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
No amount of intellect or education can grant one immunity where matters of the heart and faith are concerned.
So watch out! There's a serpent in every paradise!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Heroes fail, when you get to know them ... then they fall, just like the gods of old. Why else quest for the historical Jesus?"
Well, now we're getting somewhere ; a conversation. I'm only addressing what was directed at me.

One thing I can say bro Tat, is that, you are very astute. But I failed big time from the get-go with you. Cuz I failed to say:

Welcome to Alternative Views.

Where I am the moderator ... cuz I'm prooly the most alternative out here.

So let's have some fun. Is fun okay bro TAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAT
Let's see what awareness quoted:

1 Ti. 2:1-3 John 12:15 John 18:35-36 (he mentioned King David and the promise the Lord Jesus gave the 12 to sit on 12 thrones)

Then he quoted the Gospel of Thomas (it is from here that you get to know our Lord Jesus?)
Well your verse quotations sure got me beat. I'll have to work harder. I can cut and paste whole gospels ... and thrown in some Gospel of Thomas to boot. Can you beat that bro TAT?

But why do that? Y'all can read 'em on your own.

I quoted the GoT in support of bro zeek's question about the kingdom of heaven being within us. And by the way, there are early Christian and New Testament scholars that believe the GoT came up from the oral period, before any of the books of the NT were written; even Paul's, the earliest.

So the words of Jesus in the GoT may be more accurate than those found in the canon, written decades later, by God knows who, or whom. Only God knows.

In the end, we can not only not get at any of the autograph copy's of the books of the NT, we can't get at the autograph copy of any of the books Jesus wrote. So the actual historic Jesus is lost to us. Maybe if, all the books of him that, "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen," we'd have a better chance at getting at the historic Jesus. And all the Jesus scholars, seeking to find the historic Jesus, wouldn't be so frustrated.

To save everybody from having to read a bodacious long post, I won't comment on, Jimi Hendrix, that we're worms, the intellect, and the serpent in every paradise. They're in my tag line, and the purpose of them is to make people think. I see they've done a fine job of it. Amen Jesus. Thank you for people that think. Where would we be without 'em? Tho I can find no Bible verse to support that thinkers have any special access to the kingdom of heaven, I think it might be so. Jesus was obviously a thinker. That much we know about him.

Now let's get back to politics and the church.

Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell Jr. have endorsed Trump. Shouldn't Jerry Falwell Sr. be spinning in his grave? Wasn't it Cruz than announced his run at Liberty U.?
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:15 PM   #55
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When I remarked that Bernie was pretty light on fear, Ohio responded:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Yeah, at least they promise the forgiveness of sins and a future in heaven, and God can deliver on that promise!
I guess the gospel of fear works in both religion and politics.

But what about crazy? Lindsey Graham said: 'My party has gone 'bat[fecal matter] crazy.' I think this whole election has gone bat[fecal matter] crazy.

Especially that Evangelicals support Trump.

What say ye, all ya Evangelicals? Has your evangelical camp gone bat[fecal matter] crazy too?

Untohim, come and save the day.
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Old 02-29-2016, 06:01 PM   #56
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When I remarked that Bernie was pretty light on fear, Ohio responded:

I guess the gospel of fear works in both religion and politics.

But what about crazy? Lindsey Graham said: 'My party has gone 'bat[fecal matter] crazy.' I think this whole election has gone bat[fecal matter] crazy.

Especially that Evangelicals support Trump.

What say ye, all ya Evangelicals? Has your evangelical camp gone bat[fecal matter] crazy too?

Untohim, come and save the day.
Why have all the liberal Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy for Sanders?
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Old 02-29-2016, 08:38 PM   #57
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Why have all the liberal Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy for Sanders?
I must be missing something. That evangelicals are going for Trump is easy enough to prove. But I haven't seen that liberal Christians are going for Sanders. Please educate me bro Ohio. To me that would be a sensational as evangelicals going for Trump. Have all Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy? Has the whole world?
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Old 02-29-2016, 08:45 PM   #58
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Hey bro TAT. You didn't answer. Have you ever been in the local church that came out of Nee and Lee?
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Old 02-29-2016, 08:58 PM   #59
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I must be missing something. That evangelicals are going for Trump is easy enough to prove. But I haven't seen that liberal Christians are going for Sanders. Please educate me bro Ohio. To me that would be a sensational as evangelicals going for Trump. Have all Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy? Has the whole world?
I dont know any Trump-crazy Christians, but I know some who are feeling the Bern, including some here.
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:47 AM   #60
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Here's some actual evidence about how professing Christians will vote for those who prefer empirical research over fantasy. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...r-tuesday.html
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Old 03-01-2016, 03:27 AM   #61
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MISS ME YET?

[QUOTE=awareness;47423]

So let's have some fun. Is fun okay bro TAT?...


Now let's get back to politics and the church.
QUOTE]

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Hey bro TAT. You didn't answer. Have you ever been in the local church that came out of Nee and Lee?
Fun is OK.
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:08 AM   #62
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Here's proof that Jesus would vote for the Bern


Here's the Biblical argument for Bernie Sanders
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:20 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by awareness
So let's have some fun. Is fun okay bro TAT?...

Hey bro TAT. You didn't answer. Have you ever been in the local church that came out of Nee and Lee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAT
Fun is OK.
Well that sure was a fun dodge ... maybe ... possibly ...

It doesn't matter if you were never in the LC, but are a fan of Nee ... just sayin ....
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:25 AM   #64
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That's interesting bro Ohio. On more than one level. Thanks for the link

Quote:
"I actually wouldn’t have been able to post onto that Reddit board and say that I’m supporting Bernie. There is an Honor Code at Liberty University, and while it’s not always enforced, if you support a candidate who is pro-choice or pro-gay marriage, you can be punished by the University, up to and including expulsion from the school."
End quote.

So Liberty U. is a mind controlling cult. Not surprising. And the personality cult leader is Jerry Falwell Sr. ... tho dead ... like Witness Lee.

Funny how we need leaders in the flesh ... must be a need of the flesh.

In passing: Politically God is on the far right, and Jesus on the far left ... and they get along just fine. And so should we. Something far greater than politics connects us.
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:27 AM   #65
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There is an element of truth in Ohio's view. If there is one thing that Trump and Sanders have in common it is that they have picked up on the public's anxieties about the US economy. The USA suffered a heart attack in the 2008 recession. The nation may be off life-support now but its recovery has been slow and patchwork and many American's are still suffering. The establishment elite seem indifferent to our concerns. So Trump and Sanders represent different alternative solutions to the real economic dilemmas of many voters.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:04 AM   #66
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Quote:
In passing: Politically God is on the far right, and Jesus on the far left ... and they get along just fine. And so should we. Something far greater than politics connects us.
Then we have to define "left" and "right."

What do these terms mean to you?

I grew up in blue collar Cleveland, which was strongly Democratic. I was a Kennedy Democrat, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," who got abandoned by "leftist extremists in the party." One particular cause that affected me was when all the abortion clinics came to town. I led a huge parade through town with a coffin on the roof with baby body parts hanging out just to draw attention to this atrocity. Yet today even "liberal" Christians care little for life, saying "a woman has rights" and we don't need any more "unwanted babies."

My personal conviction is that all personal rights end when someone else gets hurt.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:23 AM   #67
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There is an element of truth in Ohio's view. If there is one thing that Trump and Sanders have in common it is that they have picked up on the public's anxieties about the US economy. The USA suffered a heart attack in the 2008 recession. The nation may be off life-support now but its recovery has been slow and patchwork and many American's are still suffering. The establishment elite seem indifferent to our concerns. So Trump and Sanders represent different alternative solutions to the real economic dilemmas of many voters.
My son is a hedge fund senior financial analyst, whose work is not affected by religious views. He (and btw most of his colleagues) is firmly convinced that the US will face a far worse crisis than 2008 in the near term. He recently told me we will have a couple more "jitters in the markets" like we did last month and then things will collapse.

He cited a number of causes: Obama administration has done little for jobs, real jobs, and his policies have basically only helped the banks in the short term. The only bright spot in the economy was the energy sector. Then the Saudis began to dump oil on the market to maintain their own market share. Today these energy companies are all defaulting, and the media is ignoring the story.

Secondly, "high yield" investments are merely "junk bonds." The entire credit industry is reaching the "end of a credit super cycle." Credit fuels everything in the financial world, and the collapse of credit will end life as we know it.

No one in their right mind would say that "the nation may be off life-support now." This is only a falsehood because the Fed now has carte blanche "Quantitative Easing" to prop things up. It only pays the interest on the debt.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:33 AM   #68
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My son is a hedge fund senior financial analyst, whose work is not affected by religious views. He (and btw most of his colleagues) is firmly convinced that the US will face a far worse crisis than 2008 in the near term. He recently told me we will have a couple more "jitters in the markets" like we did last month and then things will collapse.

He cited a number of causes: Obama administration has done little for jobs, real jobs, and his policies have basically only helped the banks in the short term. The only bright spot in the economy was the energy sector. Then the Saudis began to dump oil on the market to maintain their own market share. Today these energy companies are all defaulting, and the media is ignoring the story.

Secondly, "high yield" investments are merely "junk bonds." The entire credit industry is reaching the "end of a credit super cycle." Credit fuels everything in the financial world, and the collapse of credit will end life as we know it.

No one in their right mind would say that "the nation may be off life-support now." This is only a falsehood because the Fed now has carte blanche "Quantitative Easing" to prop things up. It only pays the interest on the debt.
And the greed factor is up there where it was just before the great depression. And pop goes that bubble.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils."
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:57 AM   #69
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And the greed factor is up there where it was just before the great depression. And pop goes that bubble.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils."
The private sector "greed factor" makes the world go round, and hence government supposedly "protects" us. Actually the two just work together, and then control the media to deceive us.

It is sheer lunacy to believe that Bill and Hillary "led the fight" to bring reform to Wall Street.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:37 AM   #70
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Here's some actual evidence about how professing Christians will vote for those who prefer empirical research over fantasy. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...r-tuesday.html
Quote:
“I would say that Ted Cruz is leading in the ‘Jerry Falwell’ wing, Marco Rubio is leading the ‘Billy Graham’ wing, and Trump is leading the ‘Jimmy Swaggart’ wing,” Moore recently told Roll Call."
End Quote

Jimmy Swaggart? LOL
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Old 03-01-2016, 01:13 PM   #71
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I don't think Paul is the source. The source is God Himself who spoke in the Son.
That particular reference (In Hebrews, at least sort of) was not talking about the writings of various prophets or others in the OT, but where God was quoted . . . "Thus saith the Lord." The speaking in the Son is the speaking of the Son, not the speaking of Paul. Paul's speaking, though inspired, is not on par with the speaking of Christ.

And in any case, my point was not to be disparaging about any of the things that anyone wrote. Rather, it was to note how we tend to read some things in a vacuum, providing ample opportunity to misunderstand, then move out to other areas and use our "in a vacuum" understanding as the lens through which other things are read. And the propensity of much of Evangelicalism, including that wayward sect, the LRC/LCM, has been to start with Paul and then layer that over Jesus.

I am not suggesting that it is impossible to misread Jesus and then layer that over everything else. But if we start with Jesus, we are at least starting with the source and not the commentary. (What I mean by that is that in the OT times, even to this day, the Jews consider the OT in two primary parts. There is what God spoke or gave directly, such as the law. Everything else is commentary. It is examples. Applications. Metaphors. All of which must be read in the light of the source, not in the light of something else.)

And all of which is among the documents that we refer to as the Bible, or the word of God.

In the case of Nee's and Lee's teachings, they would often tell some story. it worked out a certain way and seemed to be a good way for things to work out. They then took that story and used it as a basis to declare that something in the scripture meant something that might not easily fit. The scripture didn't go there. Just the story. So now we have reinvented the meaning of scripture because of a nice-sounding story.

Paul makes reference to the law being abolished. But what is he talking about there? Righteousness, obedience, etc., or rituals. But in Matt 5, Jesus not only leaves the core of the law intact, he makes it clearly more demanding and declares that anyone teaching less than this was least in the kingdom. But Lee read Paul (incorrectly) as saying the law is now abolished, so that part in Matt 5 no longer applies in the way it would appear.

I have not disparaged Paul. Nor Jesus. Only Lee who disparaged them both.

Quote:
The word of the Lord Jesus are the words of God, and so were those of the apostles.
This is a problematic statement to me. I would agree that the words of the apostles as recorded are part of the inspired revealing of God in the Bible. But God did not speak them. The disciples did. And they did not declare that it was God's words coming out.

I do not deny that those words are now part of the book that we refer to as the word of God. But the Word of God is not synonymous with the Bible. The Word of God is only defined in one place (that I can recall) and that was in John 1. The bible is a testimony of God as told by men (for the most part). They used their words. It is truly the story of God. It was inspired by God. But not dictated. Therefore it is their words.

I realize that there is a comment about jots and tittles. But I don't think that it was understood in those days as meaning that the punctuation, or even the specific words used, were necessarily ordained. Rather, it was still a world of narratives. The narrative that was given was correct. There was nothing to add to or take away from it that would make it better. Only worse. But if we think that it is about punctuation and words, then it is essentially impossible to understand God in anything but original languages. There is no obvious English equivalent to everything. That is the reason that we can read a King James, NIV, Living, Message, etc., and come to essentially the same conclusions as to what is being said. (Yeah, KJV is harder to read centuries later, but it can sill work.)

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You mentioned the importance of doing. It is a very important issue, but before that we should know who we are. Are we Jews? Are we Gentiles? I am a Gentile, and for such as me God prepared and apostle (as He appointed the 12 to send them to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), Paul.
Huh? As Christians, there is no more Jew or Gentile. I do not mean that I have problems with those who retain many Jewish traditions after salvation. Nor do I fail to recognize that in those terms I too am a Gentile. But where is there a call to know who you are before you obey the one who you have chosen and committed to follow? I don't see it.

It might have a nice sound to it, but why is there any reason not to immediately obey to the extent that you see the command? I know Lee would say to wait for enough "dispensing." Why are you waiting?
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Old 03-01-2016, 04:15 PM   #72
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No one in their right mind would say that "the nation may be off life-support now." This is only a falsehood because the Fed now has carte blanche "Quantitative Easing" to prop things up. It only pays the interest on the debt.
"The United States' economy is in better shape than the presidential candidates make it seem, investor Warren Buffett said Saturday, even though businesses like his still face challenges." http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...efuls-say.html
Excuse me if I give more credence to Buffett than you.
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:47 PM   #73
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"The United States' economy is in better shape than the presidential candidates make it seem, investor Warren Buffett said Saturday, even though businesses like his still face challenges." http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...efuls-say.html
Excuse me if I give more credence to Buffett than you.
And ISIS is the JV team.
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:34 AM   #74
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Cyborg-like, white-collar criminal, Florida Governor Rick Scott with his near total lack of human feeling would be a suitable vice-presidential running mate for the Donald. Or his lack of conscience would be a useful asset for overseeing whatever agency Trump selects to be his equivalent of the Nazi S.S. Look for him in Trump's administration somewhere if Trump gets elected.
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:51 AM   #75
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Cyborg-like, white-collar criminal, Florida Governor Rick Scott with his near total lack of human feeling would be a suitable vice-presidential running mate for the Donald. Or his lack of conscience would be a useful asset for overseeing whatever agency Trump selects to be his equivalent of the Nazi S.S. Look for him in Trump's administration somewhere if Trump gets elected.
Doubtful Trump would select a governor for VP, else Christie would be first choice. Common wisdom seems to point to senators.

Personally I think senators make for lousy presidents. Is anybody left to vote for who is not a senator?
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:54 PM   #76
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Doubtful Trump would select a governor for VP, else Christie would be first choice. Common wisdom seems to point to senators.

Personally I think senators make for lousy presidents. Is anybody left to vote for who is not a senator?
Is Kasich out now? My preference was from the governors (with Christie at the low end of that, although not by much).

I like Rubio, but he is just too young. Maybe not in years necessarily, but he comes across a little light on wisdom under fire.

Cruz is just the wrong kind of politics (IMO).

As much as I don't like Trump, at least he has moved (mostly) toward confronting the Dems rather than his own party.

My hope is that we go to the convention undecided and when they start haggling, someone unexpected but viable pops out.

What we need is someone right of center, but left of the far right. And we need someone who is not afraid to admit that it will take more than an un-budging president to get it done. Compromise is not a dirty word. It is lack of compromise that has gotten us where we are — in gridlock.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:57 PM   #77
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I like Rubio, but he is just too young. Maybe not in years necessarily, but he comes across a little light on wisdom under fire.

Cruz is just the wrong kind of politics (IMO).

As much as I don't like Trump, at least he has moved (mostly) toward confronting the Dems rather than his own party.
I have felt all along that Trump will bolt the GOP and run independent, kind of like Perot did, guaranteeing another Clintonistas' victory. My wife is convinced that Trump is working for Hilary.

In the end, all the politicking will be a waste of time if the economy tanks again like it did in 2008. The democrats will be voted out, and any re-Publican can win.
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:04 PM   #78
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That particular reference (In Hebrews, at least sort of) was not talking about the writings of various prophets or others in the OT, but where God was quoted . . . "Thus saith the Lord." The speaking in the Son is the speaking of the Son, not the speaking of Paul. Paul's speaking, though inspired, is not on par with the speaking of Christ.

And in any case, my point was not to be disparaging about any of the things that anyone wrote. Rather, it was to note how we tend to read some things in a vacuum, providing ample opportunity to misunderstand, then move out to other areas and use our "in a vacuum" understanding as the lens through which other things are read. And the propensity of much of Evangelicalism, including that wayward sect, the LRC/LCM, has been to start with Paul and then layer that over Jesus.

I am not suggesting that it is impossible to misread Jesus and then layer that over everything else. But if we start with Jesus, we are at least starting with the source and not the commentary. (What I mean by that is that in the OT times, even to this day, the Jews consider the OT in two primary parts. There is what God spoke or gave directly, such as the law. Everything else is commentary. It is examples. Applications. Metaphors. All of which must be read in the light of the source, not in the light of something else.)

And all of which is among the documents that we refer to as the Bible, or the word of God.

In the case of Nee's and Lee's teachings, they would often tell some story. it worked out a certain way and seemed to be a good way for things to work out. They then took that story and used it as a basis to declare that something in the scripture meant something that might not easily fit. The scripture didn't go there. Just the story. So now we have reinvented the meaning of scripture because of a nice-sounding story.

Paul makes reference to the law being abolished. But what is he talking about there? Righteousness, obedience, etc., or rituals. But in Matt 5, Jesus not only leaves the core of the law intact, he makes it clearly more demanding and declares that anyone teaching less than this was least in the kingdom. But Lee read Paul (incorrectly) as saying the law is now abolished, so that part in Matt 5 no longer applies in the way it would appear.

I have not disparaged Paul. Nor Jesus. Only Lee who disparaged them both.

This is a problematic statement to me. I would agree that the words of the apostles as recorded are part of the inspired revealing of God in the Bible. But God did not speak them. The disciples did. And they did not declare that it was God's words coming out.

I do not deny that those words are now part of the book that we refer to as the word of God. But the Word of God is not synonymous with the Bible. The Word of God is only defined in one place (that I can recall) and that was in John 1. The bible is a testimony of God as told by men (for the most part). They used their words. It is truly the story of God. It was inspired by God. But not dictated. Therefore it is their words.

I realize that there is a comment about jots and tittles. But I don't think that it was understood in those days as meaning that the punctuation, or even the specific words used, were necessarily ordained. Rather, it was still a world of narratives. The narrative that was given was correct. There was nothing to add to or take away from it that would make it better. Only worse. But if we think that it is about punctuation and words, then it is essentially impossible to understand God in anything but original languages. There is no obvious English equivalent to everything. That is the reason that we can read a King James, NIV, Living, Message, etc., and come to essentially the same conclusions as to what is being said. (Yeah, KJV is harder to read centuries later, but it can sill work.)

Huh? As Christians, there is no more Jew or Gentile. I do not mean that I have problems with those who retain many Jewish traditions after salvation. Nor do I fail to recognize that in those terms I too am a Gentile. But where is there a call to know who you are before you obey the one who you have chosen and committed to follow? I don't see it.

It might have a nice sound to it, but why is there any reason not to immediately obey to the extent that you see the command? I know Lee would say to wait for enough "dispensing." Why are you waiting?

I apologize to our excellent moderator, br. awareness, and ask him to forgive my last response (under this thread) to br. OBW (we need to find another place).

Almost 7 years ago on your blog (yes I am reading it and I find it interesting, and touching) commenting on Eph. 5:21-25, you still considered Paul's words as God's words. "But instead of relying on Paul’s words (acknowledging that they are also God’s words), let’s look at those of Jesus." If you have changed your view we could start a new thread under the title, THE BIBLE (what is it?), or something like that. This issue is more important to me than the difference about Jews and Gentiles.

In the Body there is no more Jew nor Gentile. And yet, I am still a Gentile. Again I will quote what you said on your blog (same one, n. 7),

"Scripture is correct when it says that we become “one flesh.” But that does not mean that we cease to be “two flesh.” It is not a contradiction, but is about different things. He is always who he is, and so is she. At the same time, there is a new entity that joins to be “married,” and do the things of marriage, including bearing and raising children."

This should not be an excuse for not doing. I agree with you 100%. Love your neighbor doesn't require any "illumination", it is something written in the Law, in the Gospel, in the Epistles. It is something we just have to do!

But let me ask you a question, which gospel do you preach today?
The gospel of the kingdom of God? Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel( A gospel that doesn't contemplate the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus)

The gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24).

Or the everlasting gospel? Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (A gospel that tells people to fear God and worship Him as the Creator).

These are your words to Dancing on ... What HE says! (post 51)
"Dancing,

The thing is that the verses that you have quoted were all things said to people at a particular time and place, not statements made in a manner that indicates permanence and ongoing fact. Said to Abraham. Said to the children of Israel as they were about to enter the good land."


These words come "close" (if they do not excuse me for posting them) to the belief in what is called different dispensations, do you agree that there are different ways of God dealing with different people, at different times, etc.?
I have to stop now.


“It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, but of whom and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goeth before and what followeth after. ”
Miles Coverdale (1488 – 20 January 1569).
(from my thread
Putting To Test The Recovery Version, post 51, there is an example how to read James)
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:34 PM   #79
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Doubtful Trump would select a governor for VP, else Christie would be first choice. Common wisdom seems to point to senators.

Personally I think senators make for lousy presidents. Is anybody left to vote for who is not a senator?
Christie is already standing by his man.

Ohio Gov. John Kasich is still left to vote for, Ohio.
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:23 AM   #80
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The popularity of Donald Trump among evangelical voters is causing some the movement's leaders to question the "evangelical" label. http://www.npr.org/2016/03/03/469005...supports-trump
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:41 AM   #81
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Christie is already standing by his man.

Ohio Gov. John Kasich is still left to vote for, Ohio.
The great governor from Ohio has little chance ...
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:04 AM   #82
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TAT,

First, the Quote button was not working today, so bear with my makeshift attempt to comment.

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Almost 7 years ago on your blog . . . commenting on Eph. 5:21-25, you still considered Paul's words as God's words.
You are inferring your understanding of what I am saying and not mine. Although I said exactly what you quoted, it is not so hard to understand it differently. When I say "acknowledging that they are also God's words" I was not intending to imply that in the sense of dictation, therefore the precise words, rather that they are, under inspiration, revealing more concerning God and our relationship with him.


And even in what I said, I clearly indicate a preference for the words of Jesus as the starting point of consideration rather than those of Paul. Not that I find anything deficient in what Paul said, but that since it is a revelation of God, but spoken in the words of a man (not God) there is a need to put those words into a framework and place within the large "story" of God. Where better to get the story of God more succinctly than in the words that he spoke in his Son, Jesus. Therefore, the meaning, even then, is that while it is all "God's word," if there is any question in understanding parts of it, what God said in his owns words rises above those spoken in the words of various men no matter how we think inspiration works.

If there is something that should be clear in the speaking of Jesus, then the words of Paul should not be understood as altering that. Rather the other way around. Paul was commenting, under inspiration, on the core that God has more directly provided — both in the OT and in Jesus. His intent was to take what was delivered to the apostles and find words to apply it to the needs of the current situation of the Ephesians, or the Philippians, etc. It was not to expound unique revelation of God that could be used to reinterpret otherwise clear speaking of Jesus.

And the quote that I provided should have indicated that even 7 years ago I thought generally as I am speaking now. I was clear that Paul was not the starting point. No. It was and still is Jesus.

And if you think that what I thought 7 years ago, even if different, is important to this discussion, then are you suggesting that what I thought in 1973, 1977, 1982 or even 1986 are important to know to question what I think today? If that were the criteria for reviewing the past, then no one could claim to leave the LCM and be in any way more than a wishy-washy person with no strength of conviction. Instead, I am fairly strong of conviction. But with a loose hold. Not a loose hold on Jesus, but a loose hold on doctrine. and that loose hold is not because of lack of conviction, but because I understand that we are easily lead astray, and more so when we are unwilling to challenge what we think we know about anything.

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But let me ask you a question, which gospel do you preach today?
Are you suggesting that there is a hierarchy of gospels and that there is a "one" to preach today? Or is the gospel the good news. And everyone needs the good news. And the good news has many layers. At the lowest layer (not meaning low in a degrading way as some would, just primary, or starting point) is the need to be forgiven of sins. But it goes so much further. It is not just about a ticket to heaven (or however people want to describe the eternal part of our existence). Neither is it just about this life. But it is all aspects. Salvation as an initial thing is a matter of grace. And a matter of decision. But also a matter of confession of Christ as Lord, and a following, which means obedience. It should ultimately affect how we live today. This will work toward how we live in the time to come.


Why is the truth of God's revelation parceled into distinct "gospels" that one must chose or ignore — like having to pick one over another?

Quote:
These words come "close" (if they do not excuse me for posting them) to the belief in what is called different dispensations, do you agree that there are different ways of God dealing with different people, at different times, etc.?
While I find my home for worship among those who are heavily under the dispensationalist belief, I do not particularly hold to it. On the other hand, there is some truth in their teaching.


But what I said, "The thing is that the verses that you have quoted were all things said to people at a particular time and place, not statements made in a manner that indicates permanence and ongoing fact," is that much of what is often taught as the only way to understand certain things, especially words, is not supportable. The so-called paradoxes that Lee so often pointed to were not paradoxes, they were different situations that were treated differently despite being able to find a common fact among them, like a particular word. For example, we are warned not to judge, yet admonished to judge. But the contexts in which the two are spoken are different. Therefore judging is not simply forbidden nor encouraged.

In an example with which we are all familiar, Lee made a lot of hay about speaking the same thing. And making it a rule among all of the leadership. But Paul did not simply say the same thing. He spoke differently to almost everyone. So despite one place making reference to speaking the same thing, it was clearly not of universal application because he was one of the more constant violators of any such absolute edict. So it must be that there is a truth in what has been spoken, and is being spoken, that is constant and unwavering. But the specific things that need to be expounded upon are different in all the cases. Otherwise, why would he suggest that eating meat offered to idols is unimportant, and yet also say that you shouldn't do it?

Context. There is a difference between context and dispensationalism. Context recognizes that there are reasons that what you think is the obvious, or "same," answer is not what is given. Leaven is not simply bad. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven placed into a lump of dough, clearly something positive. Yet the Pharisees are leaven to be avoided. So is the issue with some constant meaning of leaven, or the understanding of what it is being used in reference to?

You don't have to be a dispensationalist to consider the understanding of scripture in the manner that Miles Coverdale (whom you quoted) seems to.
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Old 03-03-2016, 06:42 PM   #83
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The popularity of Donald Trump among evangelical voters is causing some the movement's leaders to question the "evangelical" label. http://www.npr.org/2016/03/03/469005...supports-trump
Trump exposed the ENIOs > Evangelical In Name Only. And there's lots of 'em.

Christians? Is there any hope for 'em?
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:10 PM   #84
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Christians? Is there any hope for 'em?
Do you consider yourself one of these hopeless Christians?
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:15 PM   #85
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Do you consider yourself one of these hopeless Christians?
Yes. And I'm in good company going back to the beginning of Christianity. But modernity, and science, is really giving Christianity a hard way to go theses days, like never before.

Plus, Christianity in is such a mess ... and comes nowhere close to Jesus' prayer in John 17. So bad indeed that Witness Lee could claim that Christianity is Christless ... and it had the ring of truth to it.

And now, evangelicals are voting for Trump ... and the wheels are coming off the evangelical wagon ... and making them look bad, and/or crazy.

So ... Isn't modernity and science winning? By observation and evidence, Christianity does indeed look hopeless ... sorry to say.
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:42 AM   #86
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Yes. And I'm in good company going back to the beginning of Christianity. But modernity, and science, is really giving Christianity a hard way to go theses days, like never before.

Plus, Christianity in is such a mess ... and comes nowhere close to Jesus' prayer in John 17. So bad indeed that Witness Lee could claim that Christianity is Christless ... and it had the ring of truth to it.

And now, evangelicals are voting for Trump ... and the wheels are coming off the evangelical wagon ... and making them look bad, and/or crazy.

So ... Isn't modernity and science winning? By observation and evidence, Christianity does indeed look hopeless ... sorry to say.
It's your view that things are a mess. Like I always said, "it all depends on where you get your news." Are things today any worse than during the "dark ages?" Even God responded to Elijah's critique, "i have 7,000 who have not..."

You read some political article about Trump, and it shapes your whole view of the church?" Science winning what? Jesus said the kingdom of God does not come by observation. You are not going to find it on the news.
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:05 PM   #87
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It's your view that things are a mess.
No it's pretty much the view of all Christians ... who believe their group is right and everybody else's group (most of the Christians) is wrong. It's a very popular opinion, by supposed insiders, that Christianity is a mess.

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Are things today any worse than during the "dark ages?"
It's not the dark ages because of the secular state. The secular state rose up and threw some fixes at Christianity ; stripped it of it's political power, but couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together. So Christianity stays a mess. It's a conviction. What do you expect? Thank God, or rather the secular state, for the fixes so far.

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You read some political article about Trump, and it shapes your whole view of the church?"
Hard to tell where the crazy begins, and where it ends. I guess I wouldn't have that trouble if I just stuck to one news source.
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:20 PM   #88
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No it's pretty much the view of all Christians ... who believe their group is right and everybody else's group (most of the Christians) is wrong. It's a very popular opinion, by supposed insiders, that Christianity is a mess.
That's too funny. I'm not buying. How can you know everything God is doing by reading multiple news sources on the internet? Anyways, I no longer listen to the view of those "who believe their group is right and everybody else's group is wrong." I thought we left that nonsense years ago.

It's not the dark ages because of the secular state. The secular state rose up and threw some fixes at Christianity ; stripped it of it's political power, but couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together. So Christianity stays a mess. It's a conviction. What do you expect? Thank God, or rather the secular state, for the fixes so far.
I don't think some "secular state" has fixed anything in the church. If Christianity was always the "mess" you say it is, then it would have died off centuries ago. Who would pay attention to such a mess? You apparently spend too much attention examining the tares, and not the Lord Himself, who indwells the wheat.

Hard to tell where the crazy begins, and where it ends. I guess I wouldn't have that trouble if I just stuck to one news source.

God is doing an invisible work, like I said "not by observation," in His believers. This world is all chaotic, and it even affects the people of God, but if you think the children of God are too messed up to spend time with, what is the alternative? trusting the government? trusting your own resources? trusting mother earth?
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:17 AM   #89
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No it's pretty much the view of all Christians ... who believe their group is right and everybody else's group (most of the Christians) is wrong. It's a very popular opinion, by supposed insiders, that Christianity is a mess.
That's too funny. I'm not buying. How can you know everything God is doing by reading multiple news sources on the internet? Anyways, I no longer listen to the view of those "who believe their group is right and everybody else's group is wrong." I thought we left that nonsense years ago.
We did. But it didn't leave us. We now know how to see it that way. Once you see it you can't unsee it.

But really, we can't blame Christianity, for being such a mess. It's not Christianity's fault. The blame belongs to human nature.

That's why we see it everywhere ; that Christianity is a mess. We see it both in the masses, and up close and personal. I personally know crazy Christians. And I love 'em. They bring their crazy to Christianity.

That's why Christianity is such a mess. It's made up of humans. That Jesus commands us to love,
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Old 04-05-2016, 11:31 PM   #90
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Hey folks! Get ready for Witness Lee's vision of world domination realized only worse if Ted Cruz gets into the White House!

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"Anyone who has watched [Ted] Cruz on the stump knows that he often references the important role that his father, traveling evangelist Rafael Cruz, has played in his life. During a 2012 sermon at New Beginnings Church in Bedford, Texas, Rafael Cruz described his son’s political campaign as a direct fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

The elder Cruz told the congregation that God would anoint Christian “kings” to preside over an “end-time transfer of wealth” from the wicked to the righteous. After this sermon, Larry Huch, the pastor of New Beginnings, claimed Cruz’s recent election to the U.S. Senate was a sign that he was one of these kings.

According to his father and Huch, Ted Cruz is anointed by God to help Christians in their effort to “go to the marketplace and occupy the land … and take dominion” over it. This “end-time transfer of wealth” will relieve Christians of all financial woes, allowing true believers to ascend to a position of political and cultural power in which they can build a Christian civilization. When this Christian nation is in place (or back in place), Jesus will return.

Rafael Cruz and Larry Huch preach a brand of evangelical theology called Seven Mountains Dominionism. They believe Christians must take dominion over seven aspects of culture: family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business and government. The name of the movement comes from Isaiah 2:2: “Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains.”http://www.religionnews.com/2016/02/...ca-commentary/
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Old 04-06-2016, 06:08 AM   #91
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These people scare the ____ out of me. I think I'd rather have Bernie than that. I can at least be a Christian without the harm that kind of malarkey does to our reputation.
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Old 04-11-2016, 03:24 PM   #92
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The following was posted by someone elsewhere (I am not identifying where or who because I would prefer to take on this without reference to persons):

Quote:
Not to sound facetious, but I have far more trouble understanding how intelligent Christian people could espouse liberalism, than Lee and the LC's. I'm serious here. It just boggles my mind how people could become aware of the lies and corruption of the current administration, and still support it. Understanding the folks in the LC is far easier.
So the question of the day is:
Why is it that we presume that an intelligent Christian cannot espouse liberalism in general?
To answer this question we first need to separate liberalism from any particular administration and from the evil actions that individuals with positions make take.

There are many evil and/or stupid actions/positions that are take by people of both sides of the political spectrum:
  • Abortions
  • Killing abortion doctors
  • Railing on women who have had abortions
  • Homosexuality
  • Physical, economic, sociological and psychological assaults on homosexuals
  • Acting unrighteously toward any who are identified as homosexual
  • Forcing people who disagree to act as if they agree (under threat of law or monetary penalty)
These are just a few examples of how some people act on both sides of a few of the hot debates of the day.

These are issues that various people think of as immoral. We are not talking about these things.

Let's stick to the general position of liberalism v conservatism.


And if you want to consider the LCM in terms of a liberal position, I know that there have been some illegal aliens that were regular attenders in Dallas. That may not be a liberal position, but it is pretty laid-back relative to standing for the conservative position.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:14 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by OBW View Post
The following was posted by someone elsewhere (I am not identifying where or who because I would prefer to take on this without reference to persons):

So the question of the day is:
Why is it that we presume that an intelligent Christian cannot espouse liberalism in general?
To answer this question we first need to separate liberalism from any particular administration and from the evil actions that individuals with positions make take.

There are many evil and/or stupid actions/positions that are take by people of both sides of the political spectrum:
  • Abortions
  • Killing abortion doctors
  • Railing on women who have had abortions
  • Homosexuality
  • Physical, economic, sociological and psychological assaults on homosexuals
  • Acting unrighteously toward any who are identified as homosexual
  • Forcing people who disagree to act as if they agree (under threat of law or monetary penalty)
These are just a few examples of how some people act on both sides of a few of the hot debates of the day.

These are issues that various people think of as immoral. We are not talking about these things.

Let's stick to the general position of liberalism v conservatism.


And if you want to consider the LCM in terms of a liberal position, I know that there have been some illegal aliens that were regular attenders in Dallas. That may not be a liberal position, but it is pretty laid-back relative to standing for the conservative position.
Don't understand your questions here, but I'm pretty sure the quote is mine.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:16 AM   #94
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Don't understand your questions here, but I'm pretty sure the quote is mine.
I didn't want personality in it.

But it almost makes your response an attack on your own position.

The one question is:

Why is it that we presume that an intelligent Christian cannot espouse liberalism in general?

Is there something difficult in that question?

The rest was not a question. It was a plea to separate poor behavior on the part of some from the ideals behind general political philosophies. To stick to the political ideals of both liberalism and conservatism.

If the liberal political positions are wrong because of the perceived evil of the present administration, then it is just as easy to argue that the conservative political positions are wrong because of abortion clinic bombers, gay bashers, and an array of very unloving actions and words toward your neighbor wrapped in the cloak of the Christian right.

If you want to talk about either of those, that is a different discussion and is full of problems on both sides.

If you want to discuss whether liberal v conservative politics in general are more or less Christian in the true sense (not just in terms of numbers taking the positions) then that is the discussion I want to have.

I will start by saying that I am politically conservative. But I do not presume that my positions are the God ordained way. Or that Jesus would necessarily vote my way. I think it is a better position for the good of the nation, But I know very good, intelligent Christians that take the opposite position. And for reasons that are not anti Christian.

Why must the intelligence or Christianity of a person be questioned because they do not agree with you on politics? We see how positions like that play out in these forums in terms of whether Lee was or was not a legitimate Christian minister. They do not win friends or influence people.

And it would seem that if there are differing positions among otherwise like-minded Christians, then influencing those who you think have the lesser position will only happen when you consider them as intelligent equals and present a rational reason for changing their minds.

And their failure to agree with you (or me) is not proof of their lack of intelligence or lack of Christian faith. In fact, I wonder if the determination to link Christianity with a political position is due to lack of Christian faith and an attempt to replace it with political faith. And we are just small potatoes in a sea of "Christian right" replacing faith in God with faith in government.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:15 AM   #95
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I didn't want personality in it.

But it almost makes your response an attack on your own position.

The one question is:

Why is it that we presume that an intelligent Christian cannot espouse liberalism in general?

Is there something difficult in that question?
You twisted my question around. I did not say "we" but I said the following, "I have far more trouble understanding how intelligent Christian people could espouse liberalism, than Lee and the LC's. I'm serious here. It just boggles my mind how people could become aware of the lies and corruption of the current administration, and still support it. Understanding the folks in the LC is far easier."

This is a public forum. Good place to express personal views. Sorry if you don't like mine. This is why I do.

I grew up in a blue collar working class Cleveland neighborhood called West Park, and all my friends were Kennedy democrats. My first chance to vote was in '72, when I voted for McGovern. Sure I was woefully naive, but his platform of decriminalization made sense to me. Why do we need g'ment controlling our lives?

Then Roe was passed down with the slaughter of the unborn. How could the platform of the Democratic Party promote the well-being of individuals and the downtrodden, and not the totally defenseless? Today, abortion is a pillar of liberalism. Before I was saved, I was active in the pro-life movement.

That caused me to distance myself from the party. Since then, they have continually moved further left. JFK could not recognize his party today. Today's centrist is tomorrow's conservative. Next step socialism. Then comes communism.

Intelligent Christians must consider how liberal policies affect not only the unborn, but all our youth. Liberalism devalues life itself, devalues morality, devalues the family, devalues God and the Bible. The list goes on. That's why I made my comment.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:58 PM   #96
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These people scare the ____ out of me. I think I'd rather have Bernie than that. I can at least be a Christian without the harm that kind of malarkey does to our reputation.
It is Bernie's supporters, like those black lives matter hoods, that scare the @#$% out of me. I was not very sympathetic to The Donald's campaign until I watched those thugs shut down his campaign rally in Chicago.

In another well-publicized Trump rally, I actually agreed with that old guy punching that goon who flipped him off with both hands. Trump offered to pay his legal expenses. Good for him.

What some of Bernie's supporters have done is not freedom of speech, it's called starting trouble and provoking people. Bernie is using class warfare to promote his agenda. That's the standard M.O. for third world insurrections. Dictators around the world have done that for decades.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:40 PM   #97
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So liberalism is just about the slaughter of the unborn?

Are those inextricably intertwined? Is impossible for people who disagree with abortion to otherwise have a generally liberal viewpoint on so many other things? Is a thinking Christian in danger of losing his faith (or his brains) because he voted for Clinton, Kerry, Obama, Dukakis, Carter, etc., and maybe even supports Sanders at this point in the primaries?

Does one issue that is mostly a shouting match with little or no current action decimate all other positions that tend to go with the people who hold that way?

I think this is the reason that our political system is in such turmoil. The huge collection of points and positions that is either political party is being hijacked by one or two hot topics that a secular society does not entirely agree upon even within the parties that seem to mostly take one stance or the other. Just being less extremely conservative (or liberal) is viewed as complete capitulation to the other side.

And we cannot have a rational debate about healthcare (its either Obamacare or nothing), immigration (its either let them all in without restriction or round them all up an toss them back over the new 90-foot, nuclear-bunker strength fence), etc., because middle ground on anything is being a traitor to the polar positions.

And then, when we get into the church and the discussion is about how it will respond, they won't even be civil to the LGBT person. They should straighten themselves out before I even think about preaching a gospel of anything other than condemnation to them.

That may not be you. But I see it all the time and it sickens me.

How should the church deal with homosexual individuals? I started to say "confront" but that is too often all we do. Confront them. Scream at them about their sin. When you do that openly about every other sin, even still going on among the "faithful," then maybe, just maybe. Confront that guy openly in the hallway about his extramarital affair.

I hate distilling politics and culture down to homosexuality, abortions, and immigration, but that is what so many do these days. Put up with heinous rules and regulations that their chosen party does enact so that we are seen as standing with the side on things that they mostly will have nothing to actually do anything about.

Either sides is a huge collection of positions. Some of them are good on both sides. Sometimes both sides are dogmatically stupid. Sometimes both have something to offer to a discourse on that particular issue.

But now an entire side of the discussion is eliminated as unthinking and un-Christian because of one position that not everybody with that general bent agrees with. Can you have a discussion on a series of different issues, some of which are possibly best represented by a liberal viewpoint? Or is the whole bankrupt because of one issue?

It has been suggested that Evangelicalism as we know it is on the brink of shrinking (maybe to near extinction) because we are putting more trust in our positions in the culture wars than in Christ.

So far you have given me no reason to dismiss the left in general. Only railed on a couple of pet positions.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:47 PM   #98
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You twisted my question around.
I did no such thing. I quoted you verbatim. Then I asked my own question. It was based upon your statement. I was under no obligation to simply re-quote you. And I didn't. And I didn't say that you asked that question. I asked it.

And if you would rather rant about abortion, immigration, LGBT, and Obamacare, then I gave you the option of not joining this conversation. It was not intended to talk about those. It was an opportunity to discover whether there are reasons other than lack of brains or Christian faith to take liberal positions. Not every liberal position.

But it would seem that no liberal positions are acceptable because the only way to find them is to talk to someone who might think abortion is OK.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:51 PM   #99
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As for the rabble rousers supporting any particular candidate, what is it about them that makes their behavior a natural outgrowth of the positions they take. If that is the way to distinguish good positions, then fighting against abortion and gays must be the job of mean-spirited SOBs. They call themselves Christians, so I guess I can't be a Christian anymore.

That is where that logic seems to lead.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:52 PM   #100
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And if you would rather rant ...
So ... I rant. But you do not.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:16 PM   #101
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So ... I rant. But you do not.
You rant. And I respond in kind. So yes, I rant.

But the rant (from my perspective) is about the immediate response to the question that takes the discussion where I didn't care for it to go. If you want that discussion, start your own.

But unless someone else comes along and starts to discuss, I guess it was just a waste of my digital breath.

Sorry I brought it up.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:21 PM   #102
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You rant. And I respond in kind. So yes, I rant.

But the rant (from my perspective) is about the immediate response to the question that takes the discussion where I didn't care for it to go. If you want that discussion, start your own.

But unless someone else comes along and starts to discuss, I guess it was just a waste of my digital breath.

Sorry I brought it up.
Sounds to me like you only want discussions that match your views.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:30 PM   #103
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... then fighting against abortion and gays must be the job of mean-spirited SOBs. They call themselves Christians, so I guess I can't be a Christian anymore. That is where that logic seems to lead.
What if some Christians feel they are accountable for doing nothing to defend the unborn and protect the sanctity of marriage? In your mind they are all "mean-spirited SOBs?" Really?

Then how do you define "Christian?" What if some other Christians spent the same amount of time speaking against abortion and the gay movement, as you have against Lee and the Recovery? What if some Christian got released from LGBT, and felt compelled to inform others? Are they then worse Christians than you? As someone once said, "That is where that logic seems to lead."
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:47 PM   #104
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Sounds to me like you only want discussions that match your views.
I would like to discuss what it is about liberal positions in general that cannot be held by an intelligent Christian. I have known some that did just that and I was not compelled to wonder as if there is some kind of cloud hanging over either their intelligence or their Christian faith.

And I have stated that my views are conservative. But it seems problematic to presume that views that disagree with me are the result of either poor to no Christian faith or a lack of intelligence (or both).

Without separately responding to the other post, I note that there are reasons to have conversation with all kinds of people from the standpoint of the gospel, among other reasons. I am not suggesting that we remove our positions. But rather that from a political standpoint, those positions should not drive all kinds of other positions simply because they are generally within a grouping of positions that we call liberal.

You seem OK with dismissing the worst of the conservative side as not speaking for you, or not representing your intentions. I similarly hold to many conservative positions. But those who are involved in various kinds of hate crimes from within the ranks of conservatives does not make all of the conservative positions invalid.

Neither does a position in favor of available abortion simply invalidate all other liberal positions.

The question is valid. Does taking liberal positions call into question the intelligence or Christian faith of the one with those positions?

You have been ducking that question. And maybe you can actually make specific arguments that would cause particular liberal positions (and let's keep the hot topics off the table) to be of questionable validity. But so far you haven't even tried. You have pointed to all kinds of things that do not address the question or the issue.

Do you think that only supporters of abortion hold to other liberal positions? Such as more generous welfare? An immigration amnesty program? And so on?

And even if a lot who hold those other positions also do support abortion, does that automatically taint the other positions?
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:58 PM   #105
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What if some Christians feel they are accountable for doing nothing to defend the unborn and protect the sanctity of marriage? In your mind they are all "mean-spirited SOBs?" Really?

Then how do you define "Christian?" What if some other Christians spent the same amount of time speaking against abortion and the gay movement, as you have against Lee and the Recovery? What if some Christian got released from LGBT, and felt compelled to inform others? Are they then worse Christians than you? As someone once said, "That is where that logic seems to lead."
The question is not that there is or is not speaking against those things. The issue is how. With nasty rhetoric and placards marching in the streets vilifying them as persons? Or in reasoned discussion concerning the claims of right, or the rational limitations of freedom of one person compared to the freedom of another?

The latter is how we hope that we deal with the errors of Nee, Lee, and the LCM. Not just with harsh rhetoric, but with evidence that they are wrong. With reasons to rethink.

When it comes to some of these political issues, we can say what we want about speaking for God's morality. We do live in a secular society, not a theocracy, so the rules that the majority decide on are what we get. That does not mean don't seek any kind of input. Or don't speak for the unborn.

But engagement in these areas is full of pitfalls for the Christian. It is not just about our sense of morality. It is also about our attitude toward those who do not even pretend to be Christian who disagree with us. If we are close enough to speak, they are our neighbor (even if electronically). How do we treat them? Like we want to be treated?

But those are not anything like even a major part of "liberalism" and you have distilled my question to those items. You can talk about those things until the cows come home. But don't pretend that you have addressed my question.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:03 PM   #106
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http://religionnews.com/2016/05/01/c...-donald-trump/

"The ascendancy of a demagogic candidate and his message, with the angry constituency he is fueling, is a threat to both the values of our faith and the health of our democracy. Donald Trump directly promotes racial and religious bigotry, disrespects the dignity of women, harms civil public discourse, offends moral decency, and seeks to manipulate religion."
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:17 PM   #107
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http://religionnews.com/2016/05/01/c...-donald-trump/

"The ascendancy of a demagogic candidate and his message, with the angry constituency he is fueling, is a threat to both the values of our faith and the health of our democracy. Donald Trump directly promotes racial and religious bigotry, disrespects the dignity of women, harms civil public discourse, offends moral decency, and seeks to manipulate religion."
Compared to what the Clintons and Yobamas have done, the Trumps are like a boy scout club.
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Old 05-05-2016, 07:21 AM   #108
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Compared to what the Clintons and Yobamas have done, the Trumps are like a boy scout club.
Bigots prefer Trump. http://www.blueridgemuse.com/node/36587
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Old 05-05-2016, 08:06 AM   #109
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Bigots prefer Trump.
It's a smear campaign by the liberal left. I have watched them twist his words for months.

Hillary just railed on men "going off the reservation" and all native Americans, and she got a free pass. She and Yobama are the worst thing that ever happened to women and the African-Americans.

Try to see past the distorted political rhetoric and get to the facts. I know that's hard for you to do, but please try.
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:26 AM   #110
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It's a smear campaign by the liberal left. I have watched them twist his words for months.

Hillary just railed on men "going off the reservation" and all native Americans, and she got a free pass. She and Yobama are the worst thing that ever happened to women and the African-Americans.

Try to see past the distorted political rhetoric and get to the facts. I know that's hard for you to do, but please try.
The distorted political rhetoric is coming out of Trump. You're in good company with the KKK and the Neo-Nazi's who support Trump, bro .
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:24 AM   #111
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The distorted political rhetoric is coming out of Trumps. You're in good company with the KKK and the Neo-Nazi's bro who support Trump.
That's baloney. Am I now guilty by association with every guy who votes for the same candidate I do. And, btw, I did NOT vote in my recent primary since only 25% of the delegates were decided by the primary, and 75% were decided by others.

And with the Clintons, you are in good company with murderers, thieves, liars, philanderers, and traitors. There's no guilt by association there.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:08 AM   #112
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It's a smear campaign by the liberal left. I have watched them twist his words for months.
Maybe.

But I have also heard his words and been convinced that I cannot vote for him. This may truly be the demise of the Republican Party. While no less variety of thought than is within the Democratic Party, the third-party candidates generally do not appeal to them, so they always return to the fold. For the Republicans, there are too many who will simply strike out on their own (Libertarians, Tea-Party, Perot, Paul, and so on). And to vote for those is to ensure that the Democrats get it. And maybe they should. Trump doesn't just get maligned for things he doesn't say. He is attacked constantly with what he does say. If he really doesn't mean it, then I suggest a serious character flaw beyond his narcissism. He cannot be trusted to say what he means.

Maybe Hillary really is the better choice. (Did I really say that out loud?)
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:12 AM   #113
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That's baloney. Am I now guilty by association with every guy who votes for the same candidate I do.
You are clearly correct on this. And you are not guilty because of the position of others.

Ted Bundy probably voted for someone. Is everyone who voted for the same candidate a serial killer?

But I can turn this question back on you. Is everyone who takes an overall liberal position a proponent of abortion and/or gay marriage? You seemed hell-bent on insisting that in the other thread.
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:51 AM   #114
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That's baloney. Am I now guilty by association with every guy who votes for the same candidate I do. And, btw, I did NOT vote in my recent primary since only 25% of the delegates were decided by the primary, and 75% were decided by others.

And with the Clintons, you are in good company with murderers, thieves, liars, philanderers, and traitors. There's no guilt by association there.
Your guilt isn't merely by association. It's in the fact that you share bigotry with Trump.
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:44 PM   #115
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Whether Trump was a bigot or not they'd still call him one. They always do. It's like the boy that cried wolf. Tim Tebow could run for president and they'd call him a bigot. The hypocrisy of it is amusing, but I'm sure that's lost on the liberals. They are dead serious.

If you are any kind of normal person, as opposed to a politician, and just say what you think, you are going to get reemed by the press because they are going to play pattycake with what you said. We've been trained to expect these politicians to be so benign in their speech that they essentially say nothing. Trump doesn't want to be that kind of candidate, so he's blunt, which shocks people who expect politicians to be wind-up toys who mouth talking points. Anyone who doesn't is considered crazy and dangerous. And they are, to the status quo, that is.

In several cases I've seen, Trump was purposefully taken out of context. Once that starts, and people buy it, then it snowballs because most have jumped on the bandwagon and few check the facts, and it becomes a lynch mob. The fact that he's a Republican just makes it worse because liberals LOVE to accuse Republicans of being bigots.

I'm not saying he hasn't put his foot in his mouth some. I'm saying it's overblown.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:31 PM   #116
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Here's a bunch of things Trump said that scandalized everyone. It's obvious much of it is tongue-in-cheek.

Trust me, if this guy was a liberal and saying these kinds of things about Republicans, he'd be guesting on The Daily of Show and Saturday Night Live. He'd be the toast of the town.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...s-made-6975782

I remember the horrible things that were said about Linda Tripp. Please spare me the fastidiousness about Trump.
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:58 PM   #117
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Here's a bunch of things Trump said that scandalized everyone. It's obvious much of it is tongue-in-cheek.

Trust me, if this guy was a liberal and saying these kinds of things about Republicans, he'd be guesting on The Daily of Show and Saturday Night Live. He'd be the toast of the town.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...s-made-6975782

I remember the horrible things that were said about Linda Tripp. Please spare me the fastidiousness about Trump.
Half the things Trump says are liberal then he says the opposite, sometimes in the same sentence.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Donald_Trump.htm
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:04 PM   #118
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Whether Trump was a bigot or not they'd still call him one. They always do. It's like the boy that cried wolf. Tim Tebow could run for president and they'd call him a bigot. The hypocrisy of it is amusing, but I'm sure that's lost on the liberals. They are dead serious.
Does the "they" figure largely in your world view?



Quote:
If you are any kind of normal person, as opposed to a politician, and just say what you think, you are going to get reemed by the press because they are going to play pattycake with what you said. We've been trained to expect these politicians to be so benign in their speech that they essentially say nothing. Trump doesn't want to be that kind of candidate, so he's blunt, which shocks people who expect politicians to be wind-up toys who mouth talking points. Anyone who doesn't is considered crazy and dangerous. And they are, to the status quo, that is.
So, in your opinion, when people say what they really think, it turns out they're bigots? The rest are just pretending in order to be politically correct?

Quote:
In several cases I've seen, Trump was purposefully taken out of context. Once that starts, and people buy it, then it snowballs because most have jumped on the bandwagon and few check the facts, and it becomes a lynch mob. The fact that he's a Republican just makes it worse because liberals LOVE to accuse Republicans of being bigots.
So Trump's remarks just appear bigoted because they taken out of context. How did they do that during the debate? Did they dub in different words then he was actually saying? I mean those weren't just sound bites. Was it some trick of the lizard people conspiracy or something?

Theses examples were trumped up I suppose: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b03260bf777e83

Trump has taken bigotry to a new low level as far as presidential aspirants in my life time except for maybe George Wallace. Or was the liberal media taking him out of context too?

Quote:
I'm not saying he hasn't put his foot in his mouth some. I'm saying it's overblown.
Which simply means that other people react differently than you do to his bigotry. Maybe you're just desensitized to it because you've been around it a lot. Hell maybe you agree with it or some of it. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Are you a Bobby Knight fan? He agrees with it, or says he does. Knight endorsed Trump cuz he thinks he would be willing to nuke people. If you are looking for a guy to precipitate an apocalypse, Trump could be your guy.
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Old 05-10-2016, 05:58 AM   #119
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Does the "they" figure largely in your world view?
You should be happy you can characterize Trump as a bigot. Someone who you couldn't would wipe the floor with Hillary, and he might anyway.
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Old 05-10-2016, 06:51 AM   #120
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Which simply means that other people react differently than you do to his bigotry. Maybe you're just desensitized to it because you've been around it a lot. Hell maybe you agree with it or some of it. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Are you a Bobby Knight fan? He agrees with it, or says he does. Knight endorsed Trump cuz he thinks he would be willing to nuke people. If you are looking for a guy to precipitate an apocalypse, Trump could be your guy.
It's so relieving to see ole zeek's bigotry radar in operation.

Where's that post where he slams Hillary for her bigotry against men and native americans "going off the reservation?"

Yesterday I heard about Obama's chief negotiator Rhodes revealing how the American people were deceived during the Iranian nuclear treaty initiated by our good friend Hillary.

zeek: But wait! She may be a crook, a murderer, a traitor, and a liar, but she's not a bigot!

Hey zeek, your bigotry radar needs to be recalibrated.
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Old 05-10-2016, 06:56 AM   #121
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Hey zeek, your bigotry radar needs to be recalibrated.
Don't you know, Ohio? Only Republicans can be bigots. Democrats can display seeming manifestations of bigotry, but they can't be bigots, because they are Democrats.
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:25 AM   #122
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Don't you know, Ohio? Only Republicans can be bigots. Democrats can display seeming manifestations of bigotry, but they can't be bigots, because they are Democrats.
It's not just traditional conservatives like us. We are also tagged "bigots" just because we believe in Jesus and believe the Bible is the word of God. According to liberals, our judgment is thus totally flawed by something called faith.

Think about it. Once a person shows the slightest concern for the slaughter of the unborn, immediately the person is branded as a mysogynist, who wants to rob all women of their "rights." Once a person shows the slightest concern for the decency and the rights of all women using public restrooms, the person is branded as an LGBT hater and bigot. Liberalism is a mental disorder. Now we need urinals in all the ladies' rest rooms.

These same liberals then condemn God for acting righteously, as the Bible has prophesied He would.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:11 AM   #123
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This thread is too ugly even for me.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:26 AM   #124
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This thread is too ugly even for me.
I highly doubt that!
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:37 AM   #125
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You should be happy you can characterize Trump as a bigot. Someone who you couldn't would wipe the floor with Hillary, and he might anyway.
Considering the history of the Clintonistas, bigotry is a noble virtue.

Remember all those Arkancides?

Arkancide is the unfortunate habit of potential witnesses to the Clintons’ dirty dealings in Arkansas suddenly deciding to shoot themselves twice in the back of the head. Police and Coroners in Arkansas, notably Fahmy Malak who answered to Governor Bill Clinton, automatically described these shootings as “suicides.” After Bill Clinton became President the phenomenon spilled over to Washington D.C. when Hillary Clinton’s ex-lover Vincent Foster was “Arkancided.”
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:11 PM   #126
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I used to think of Bill Clinton as a shameless narcissist. But, Trump trumps him on the narcissism scale. How far Trump goes on the sociopathy scale I don't want to see him get elected to find out. Conservatives made an issue of the authenticity of Obama's Christianity, but Trump's attempt at presenting himself as a Christian was laughably inept and you guys cannot help but have seen that.
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Old 05-10-2016, 02:30 PM   #127
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I used to think of Bill Clinton as a shameless narcissist. But, Trump trumps him on the narcissism scale. How far Trump goes on the sociopathy scale I don't want to see him get elected to find out. Conservatives made an issue of the authenticity of Obama's Christianity, but Trump's attempt at presenting himself as a Christian was laughably inept and you guys cannot help but have seen that.
Comparing the two is like comparing a mafia godfather to a rich schoolyard bully, and then commenting that the bully is a egomaniac.
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Old 05-10-2016, 03:05 PM   #128
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Considering the history of the Clintonistas, bigotry is a noble virtue.

Remember all those Arkancides?

Arkancide is the unfortunate habit of potential witnesses to the Clintons’ dirty dealings in Arkansas suddenly deciding to shoot themselves twice in the back of the head. Police and Coroners in Arkansas, notably Fahmy Malak who answered to Governor Bill Clinton, automatically described these shootings as “suicides.” After Bill Clinton became President the phenomenon spilled over to Washington D.C. when Hillary Clinton’s ex-lover Vincent Foster was “Arkancided.”
Push down on Hillary get Trump. Push down on Trump and get Hillary. Pick your evil.
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Old 05-10-2016, 05:44 PM   #129
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Push down on Hillary get Trump. Push down on Trump and get Hillary. Pick your evil.
Why is a little nationalism such a bad thing?

We don't know what a Trump presidency will look like, but it seems it will be nasty talk and good decisions for the country. Unless we all have amnesia, we know what a Clinton presidency will look like. While she is promising us all the world, jobs are lost, illegal immigrants get a free lunch, 1st and 2nd amendment rights will vanish, scandals abound, political opponents die mysteriously, etc.
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:31 PM   #130
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Why is a little nationalism such a bad thing?

We don't know what a Trump presidency will look like, but it seems it will be nasty talk and good decisions for the country. Unless we all have amnesia, we know what a Clinton presidency will look like. While she is promising us all the world, jobs are lost, illegal immigrants get a free lunch, 1st and 2nd amendment rights will vanish, scandals abound, political opponents die mysteriously, etc.
Trump's appeals to ultra-nationalism, his scapegoating of ethnic groups, his fear mongering to angry working-class voters and his presentation of himself as the strong man who can fix every problem [the man card] through the force of his will all have echoes of fascist political leaders of the past like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:11 PM   #131
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Trump's appeals to ultra-nationalism, his scapegoating of ethnic groups, his fear mongering to angry working-class voters and his presentation of himself as the strong man [the man card] who can fix every problem through the force of his will all have echoes of fascist political leaders of the past like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco.
Hitler? But, of course, you are not fear-mongering here because you made the first accusation. Liberalism has blinded you friend.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:37 AM   #132
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Trump's appeals to ultra-nationalism, his scapegoating of ethnic groups, his fear mongering to angry working-class voters and his presentation of himself as the strong man who can fix every problem [the man card] through the force of his will all have echoes of fascist political leaders of the past like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco.
What's so interesting here is you've described what he does with just enough negative spin to make it look horrible.

Is Trump scapegoating ethnic groups? Or is he simply pointing out that illegal aliens are a problem and that wholesale immigration of Muslims has caused problems in every non-Muslim nation it's occurred in? Why is that about "race" all of a sudden. Maybe it's just about having laws and controlling culture shock.

Is he fear-mongering to the working class? Gee, I thought that's what Democrats do every election when they complain about rich privilege. Wasn't complaining about "Wall Street" fear-mongering?--when the policies of the Congress and the Fed were as much if not more a cause of the financial crisis? "Blame Wall Street, and pay no attention to that man (Alan Greenspan/Ben Bernanke) behind the curtain."

Strong man? Would you rather have him act weak and timid? What's wrong with being strong? Now all of a sudden acting strong is evil? Hello!

Then the clincher--compare him to sociopathic despots. Every campaigner "echoes" fascist leaders in some way because they are all campaigning.

Really, zeek? You are smarter than that. As a thinker you should know you are employing selective reasoning here.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:55 PM   #133
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There's more support for Donald Trump among white supremacists than among leaders of the Republican Party.
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Old 05-12-2016, 03:00 AM   #134
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There's more support for Donald Trump among white supremacists than among leaders of the Republican Party.
There's more support for Hillary Clinton among felons on death row than among leaders of the Democratic Party.
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Old 05-12-2016, 07:37 AM   #135
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There's more support for Hillary Clinton among felons on death row than among leaders of the Democratic Party.
Pretty sure the NAMBLA crowd is foursquare behind Hillary.

We could do this all day, zeek. What does it prove?


Don't forget them "tabacca lawyers," zeek. James Carville used to get a lot of distance yelling about them.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:31 AM   #136
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There's more support for Hillary Clinton among felons on death row than among leaders of the Democratic Party.
This is a typical superficial tit-for-tat response such as I have come to expect from you. There is no parallel. Clinton is the preferred candidate of the Democratic Party leaders whereas most Republican leaders are having major reservations about endorsing Trump.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:14 AM   #137
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This is a typical superficial tit-for-tat response such as I have come to expect from you. There is no parallel. Clinton is the preferred candidate of the Democratic Party leaders whereas most Republican leaders are having major reservations about endorsing Trump.
The Communist Party has elected every single one of their leaders with unanimous overwhelming support. So what's the point? Real democratic process has conflicts. Get over it. And besides, take away those corrupt "super" delegates paid off by the Clintons, and Bernie would probably win.

You know zeek, some of your responses should be moderated, if we had one, that is. You are not addressing the points, instead it's hit-and-run attacks. Instead of meaningful responses, you just love to criticize and patronize me.

I still have a bunch of PM's from you where you berated me endlessly for quoting you scriptures from Timothy. That's when this all started. It seems to me like you come home drunk every night, hit the keyboard, and vent your day away.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:24 AM   #138
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The Communist Party has elected every single one of their leaders with unanimous overwhelming support. So what's the point? Real democratic process has conflicts. Get over it. And besides, take away those corrupt "super" delegates paid off by the Clintons, and Bernie would probably win.

You know zeek, some of your responses should be moderated, if we had one, that is. You are not addressing the points, instead it's hit-and-run attacks. Instead of meaningful responses, you just love to criticize and patronize me.

I still have a bunch of PM's from you where you berated me endlessly for quoting you scriptures from Timothy. That's when this all started. It seems to me like you come home drunk every night, hit the keyboard, and vent your day away.
The moderator is recovering from surgery so little Ohio will have to fend for himself for now. You should have no problem with my remark as it was used by your guy Trump against Rubio in the Presidential debates. A very presidential remark it is too.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:45 AM   #139
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This is a typical superficial tit-for-tat response such as I have come to expect from you. There is no parallel. Clinton is the preferred candidate of the Democratic Party leaders whereas most Republican leaders are having major reservations about endorsing Trump.
Your comment about "white supremacists" was baiting, zeek, and you know it. You got back what you deserved. If you want to make an intelligent comment about party support, leave out the irrelevant comparisons, and you won't beg them from others.
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Old 05-12-2016, 12:04 PM   #140
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The moderator is recovering from surgery so little Ohio will have to fend for himself for now. You should have no problem with my remark as it was used by your guy Trump against Rubio in the Presidential debates. A very presidential remark it is too.
There you go again.

Trump ain't "my guy." I never voted for him.

Since when is "presidential" a qualifier? Who gets to define that?

And, btw, you have never addressed any of the egregious concerns about Clinton. So typical of liberals. You all deserve free meds.
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Old 05-12-2016, 12:17 PM   #141
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Trump ain't "my guy." I never voted for him.
But, you will. My hands are 7.5 inches long. How big are yours? It must be an important measure. After all, Presidential candidates Rubio and Trump discussed it in the Republican Presidential Debates.
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Old 05-12-2016, 02:28 PM   #142
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But, you will. My hands are 7.5 inches long. How big are yours? It must be an important measure. After all, Presidential candidates Rubio and Trump discussed it in the Republican Presidential Debates.
I think Rubio, Cruz, and Trump, should have just whipped it out ... and longest takes all.

Note they didn't bring it up until Carson dropped out.

And Hillary don't measure up at all ... but she's clearly got the biggest balls.

And zeek, stop picking on "little" Ohio.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:12 PM   #143
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I think Rubio, Cruz, and Trump, should have just whipped it out ... and longest takes all.

Note they didn't bring it up until Carson dropped out.

And Hillary don't measure up at all ... but she's clearly got the biggest balls.

And zeek, stop picking on "little" Ohio.
Hey that Trump came up with some great lines that he used against the other Republican Candidates. Those kind of lines really helped unify the party. After all Trump's a true Christian, right? I mean he switched to pro-life didn't he? So I think we should use Trump's lines here to help unify the brothers. Hey wait, now he's saying the huge wall that he crowed that he would build was "just a suggestion?" What? He's not flip-flopping is he? How flagrantly old school political that would be. What a bull****ter. In the latest bit of political theater, Paul Ryan has been assigned the role of reigning in the Bad Boy.
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Old 05-13-2016, 07:21 AM   #144
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Hey that Trump came up with some great lines that he used against the other Republican Candidates. Those kind of lines really helped unify the party. After all Trump's a true Christian, right? I mean he switched to pro-life didn't he? So I think we should use Trump's lines here to help unify the brothers. Hey wait, now he's saying the huge wall that he crowed that he would build was "just a suggestion?" What? He's not flip-flopping is he? How flagrantly old school political that would be. What a bull****ter. In the latest bit of political theater, Paul Ryan has been assigned the role of reigning in the Bad Boy.
Hey zeek, you seem to be victimized by selective history loss.

How can the schoolyard bully trouble you, but not the Clintonista mafiosa, who are not only above the law, but make the law, much like corrupt dictatorships. But why should you be bothered when they get away with theft, lies, murders, treason, etc. since they are your beloved progresso-liberals?
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Old 05-13-2016, 07:25 AM   #145
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And zeek, stop picking on "little" Ohio.

Like Little Kevin Love "droppin' dimes."
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Old 05-13-2016, 09:35 AM   #146
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Hey zeek, you seem to be victimized by selective history loss.

How can the schoolyard bully trouble you, but not the Clintonista mafiosa, who are not only above the law, but make the law, much like corrupt dictatorships. But why should you be bothered when they get away with theft, lies, murders, treason, etc. since they are your beloved progresso-liberals?
It's all relative in the broken American presidential political system. I would have preferred any of the other Republican candidates to Trump even "Lying Ted."
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Old 05-13-2016, 11:51 AM   #147
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It's all relative in the broken American presidential political system. I would have preferred any of the other Republican candidates to Trump even "Lying Ted."
The political apparatus has decided that Hillary is next in line. Unless Comey is willing to risk suicide, that is what will happen.
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:34 PM   #148
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The political apparatus has decided that Hillary is next in line. Unless Comey is willing to risk suicide, that is what will happen.
Then doom, doom, doom, is coming. Whichever way it goes. I feel like I'm being conned.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:18 AM   #149
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ELECTION 2016
Former Cult Member Explains How Donald Trump and His Followers Are Just Like a Cult
“The fear and the anger had been demagogued in such a way that their faces were set like flint and it’s like they have blinders on.”


"Kendal Unruh — a Republican delegate and high school teacher from Colorado — grew up in a religious cult, and that’s why she’s determined to stop Donald Trump from becoming president.

The 51-year-old Unruh, who was raised among members of The Move cult established by Sam Fife, said she knows what a cult leader looks like, and she said that perfectly describes the Republican presidential nominee."

http://www.alternet.org/election-201...oters-are-cult
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:03 AM   #150
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ELECTION 2016
Former Cult Member Explains How Donald Trump and His Followers Are Just Like a Cult
“The fear and the anger had been demagogued in such a way that their faces were set like flint and it’s like they have blinders on.”


"Kendal Unruh — a Republican delegate and high school teacher from Colorado — grew up in a religious cult, and that’s why she’s determined to stop Donald Trump from becoming president.

The 51-year-old Unruh, who was raised among members of The Move cult established by Sam Fife, said she knows what a cult leader looks like, and she said that perfectly describes the Republican presidential nominee."

http://www.alternet.org/election-201...oters-are-cult
Time for me to pen an article, "Former Cult Member Explains How Hillary Clinton and Her Followers Are Just Like a Cult."

Let me start with all of the "Arkancides," (Google that one!) and then we will move on to other forms of "silencing" others' opinions. Just recently the lives of a few more of her outspoken critics have been abruptly ended.

I hope you don't get the impression that I'm a Trump supporter. I'm just an ordinary informed citizen who has lived with these Clintonistas for a quarter century.
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:28 PM   #151
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Time for me to pen an article, "Former Cult Member Explains How Hillary Clinton and Her Followers Are Just Like a Cult." . . .
Ya got that right bro. So we've got a choice between one cult or the other. We ex-LCers should know better ... and should avoid them both.

Let's write in "Jesus."

H-A
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:05 AM   #152
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How do professing Christians who support Trump answer these questions?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerl...-donald-trump/
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:56 AM   #153
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How do professing Christians who support Trump answer these questions?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerl...-donald-trump/
How do so-called "professing" Christians support the Clinton and the Democratic Party after watching the documentary "Hillary's America: The Secret history of the Democratic Party"?
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:29 PM   #154
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How do so-called "professing" Christians support the Clinton and the Democratic Party after watching the documentary "Hillary's America: The Secret history of the Democratic Party"?
I admit to being surprised that Evangelicals are supporting Trump in droves. Bible belt Kentucky, as an example, supported Trump in the primaries.

It just doesn't add up. Hey, where's those "Family Values" the pubbies are so fond of harping about?. But some Christian Trump supporters bring up Cyrus the great ... a Zoroastrian (pagan) that allowed the Jews to go back and rebuild the temple. So to them, it might be the same for the non-Christian Trump ; Trump being like Cyrus. I agree that that is just crazy logic, but I've heard it bantered about in Christian interwebs. That's how I know about that preposterous proposition.

But to be fair. At a recent family gathering, of predominately Southern Baptists, most of them admitted that they were in a quandary over who to vote for. Some said they aren't going to vote for either one.

Sorry to say, but that sounds more Christian to me than voting for either Hillary or Trump.

Seems to me that Christians have lost track of : "My kingdom is not of this world."
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:00 PM   #155
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Seems to me that Christians have lost track of : "My kingdom is not of this world."
How does picking a "sinner" for President conflict with the kingdom of God? Have you ever read history?

I have yet to see Trump accused of perjury, dozens of murders, slandering her husband's rape victims, theft, corruption, treason, etc. The numerous crimes of the Clintons' have filled the internet for decades, yet she will sweet talk her constituents day in and day out, and their Attorney General will always be there to protect them. She has never accomplished anything for the American people, yet she is the "experienced" candidate.

For me the contest is between the egotistical "schoolyard bully" and the "puppet candidate for a syndicated crime family." Sure Trump likes to intimidate and mock his detractors, but do you prefer to be "sweet-talked" as you are knifed in the back? The Clintons' make the Godfather look like a Catholic priest.

Just the other night I again heard how the church has been "sleeping" for 8 years, and needs to "wake up and support Trump." That kind of talk is just as pathetic to me. It's so easy for some Christians to criticize the church of God because they are not doing what we like! Both sides of the argument make me sick.
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Old 08-15-2016, 06:12 PM   #156
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I generally begin my defense of voting for the "lesser of two evils" with the notion that the candidate of my party will at least adhere to the basic tenets of that party, therefore, while not 100% in sync, will tend to be what I expect them to be (especially since Congress will have a say in it anyway).

But this year I must stay that I am more impressed with a question I heard recently (paraphrased due to lack of direct link):
Quote:
Since the lesser of two evils seems a rather inept position this year, the question is which pile you are willing to step into?
I have to assess the difference between dislike of political leanings and open disregard for humanity and decency. At this point in time, I fear where Trump can take us in the world arena more than I fear what some liberal agenda will do to the "fabric" of our country. I am convinced that as long as the issues are internal, the fact of 3 branches of government and the significance of Congress in it all will mitigate some of the potentials. But the ability of a president in this day and age to have our military deployed almost anywhere without a declaration of war makes a hothead like Trump unacceptable.

To be way over the top about it . . . . As ballistic as he goes when someone comments on his small hands, what happens when it is a foreign leader and he can send a battalion of Marines.

I'm sorry, but I think we can survive the liberal Democratic agenda more easily than the whims of an incoherent, hot-headed, immoral, egotistical madman with the military at his command.

This is where the multi-candidate primaries are coming up to bite us. Trump never took 50% of any of them. I suspect that if it had all been between Trump and a generally acceptable Republican candidate, Trump would be gone.

Of course, because he is so egotistical, he might have then simply set out as an independent and drawn enough voters away to scuttle the Republican hopes, giving us Hillary anyway.

Might as well get ready for it. Like it or not.

And it could surprise a lot of us. But I suspect not. Trump seems to be on the way to self-destruction.
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Old 08-15-2016, 06:38 PM   #157
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Because the Clintons' are the darlings of the media and the academia, they turn a blind eye to all of their criminal activity, and then exaggerate all of Trump's gaffes. Thus we are forever cursed with Manchurian-like, teleprompter-driven, spineless, politically-correct, establishment crooks and puppets.

But, hey, I can still pray.
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:33 AM   #158
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I generally begin my defense of voting for the "lesser of two evils" with the notion that the candidate of my party will at least adhere to the basic tenets of that party, therefore, while not 100% in sync, will tend to be what I expect them to be (especially since Congress will have a say in it anyway).

But this year I must stay that I am more impressed with a question I heard recently (paraphrased due to lack of direct link):
I have to assess the difference between dislike of political leanings and open disregard for humanity and decency. At this point in time, I fear where Trump can take us in the world arena more than I fear what some liberal agenda will do to the "fabric" of our country. I am convinced that as long as the issues are internal, the fact of 3 branches of government and the significance of Congress in it all will mitigate some of the potentials. But the ability of a president in this day and age to have our military deployed almost anywhere without a declaration of war makes a hothead like Trump unacceptable.

To be way over the top about it . . . . As ballistic as he goes when someone comments on his small hands, what happens when it is a foreign leader and he can send a battalion of Marines.

I'm sorry, but I think we can survive the liberal Democratic agenda more easily than the whims of an incoherent, hot-headed, immoral, egotistical madman with the military at his command.

This is where the multi-candidate primaries are coming up to bite us. Trump never took 50% of any of them. I suspect that if it had all been between Trump and a generally acceptable Republican candidate, Trump would be gone.

Of course, because he is so egotistical, he might have then simply set out as an independent and drawn enough voters away to scuttle the Republican hopes, giving us Hillary anyway.

Might as well get ready for it. Like it or not.

And it could surprise a lot of us. But I suspect not. Trump seems to be on the way to self-destruction.
. . . . . . Like some establishment pubbies have stated recently : "Liberal courts won't be as bad as Trump" (paraphrased).

And OBW, I don't want to step in either pile of evil. Ohio is right about the Clinton's. After Dubya I declared that I no longer ever wanted another Bush in the highest office, or another Clinton. And then Trump came along ... and is making me eat those words, as bitter as they are.

Personally I think we have the garlic room effect here. This election cycle is insanity. But we've grown so use to it that, we no longer recognize it for what it is.

It's not only Christians that have lost their minds, it's all of America. Terrorism is winning. It's driven us to insanity, and self destruction.
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:30 PM   #159
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I obviously do not think about everything the same way as everyone else. And that is OK (for Me and "you").

I think the truth is that we are facing piles that look like something from the third Jurassic Park movie. (Think 8-foot pile that starts ringing.) I respect that everyone doesn't see things my way.

And just like any risk assessment, everyone has a different hierarchy of preferences and fears that drives their conclusions.

The truth is that neither candidate is really talking about meaningful issues. They are both talking about each other. About the reasons to fear the other "guy." Not really anything meaningful about the present.

Don't even hear hollow promises of hope. Just the sounds of walls being built. We are approaching becoming the Divided States of America. It will look like one of those "in place" divorces where there is no actual divorce. Just sleep in different beds and ignore each other. Or maybe more like "War of the Roses."
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Old 08-16-2016, 07:59 PM   #160
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae..._11290252.html
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:56 AM   #161
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News Flash!

Huffington Post is not a valid site for Christians to get their news.
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Old 08-17-2016, 06:53 AM   #162
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News Flash!

Huffington Post is not a valid site for Christians to get their news.
News Flash! That's nothing more than your opinion.
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:49 AM   #163
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News Flash!

Huffington Post is not a valid site for Christians to get their news.
So what site is valid for Christians to get their news from?
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:57 AM   #164
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Find fault in the article, not the writer or the publisher. Otherwise it is a classic misdirect. A true ad hominem.

From a truly Christian perspective, virtually every source of news is tainted in some way. Fox News, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, Huffington Post, the Drudge Report . . . .

Even Christianity Today. It has a slant that is opposed to whole segments of Christianity and is therefore carrying a bias that is not always favorable toward the truth, but toward the bias.

So what is a person to do?

Think. Hear the report. Observe. Think.

Don't just accept. And don't think the source that is biased in your direction is always right. I know mine isn't. I almost can't stomach them anymore.
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:08 AM   #165
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Find fault in the article, not the writer or the publisher. Otherwise it is a classic misdirect. A true ad hominem.

From a truly Christian perspective, virtually every source of news is tainted in some way. Fox News, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, Huffington Post, the Drudge Report . . . .

Even Christianity Today. It has a slant that is opposed to whole segments of Christianity and is therefore carrying a bias that is not always favorable toward the truth, but toward the bias.

So what is a person to do?

Think. Hear the report. Observe. Think.

Don't just accept. And don't think the source that is biased in your direction is always right. I know mine isn't. I almost can't stomach them anymore.
Note the thumbs up top left corner.

But to humor bro Ohio, I'm supposing that he won't object to "NewsMax" being a Christian source for news ... where Wayne Grudem's article is posted. Newsmax is a noted conservative news source -- therefore I suppose more Christian (so commonly believed) :
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Tru.../30/id/741334/
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:39 AM   #166
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So what is a person to do?

Think. Hear the report. Observe. Think. Don't just accept.

And don't think the source that is biased in your direction is always right. I know mine isn't. I almost can't stomach them anymore.
There you go man!

Keep as cool as you can!

Face piles and piles of trials with smiles.

It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.

And keep on thinking free.
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:56 AM   #167
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So what site is valid for Christians to get their news from?
I've been studying the Clintons' for a quarter century. I've been reading about Trump for much less time.

But in my mind, there is no way we can compare the Clinton sleaze factor with Trump's abrasive tendencies. Trump is a product of the abrasive in-your-face business world, while the Clintons' are puppets of the political underworld.

Just this year we have another handful of "mysterious deaths" surrounding Hillary. Over the years, this number approaches a hundred. And that's on top of all the other scandals we have endured over the years.

Everyone has their own agenda folks. Too many young girls I know support Hillary for just one reason: She guarantees the continued right to abortions. What does that tell you?
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Old 08-17-2016, 01:29 PM   #168
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There you go man!

Keep as cool as you can!

Face piles and piles of trials with smiles.

It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.

And keep on thinking free.
At least we try.

And Harold . . . stop picking on Ohio. He's trying to figure out how to make do with the *stuff* on the market shelves. Just like I am. I read an article like the one zeek linked and I find fault in both the article and the position of the one he was griping about (Gruden or someone like that). We are all faced with pretty bad choices.

One writer I occasionally read suggested that Trump (although I suspect it was more like the combination of Trump/Clinton if the truth be told) could result in the destruction of both the Republican and Democratic parties. The internal strife over Trump v Cruz v Rubio v Kaisich (sp?) etc. and Hillary v Bernie created significant divides among those of allegedly similar goals. We might be able to imagine it results in a better system, but the truth is that it might result in a 4-party system in which there is never a winner via standard means. It would take a constitutional amendment to get a president. Of course the congress could simply declare a president because that is evidently the last option if the electoral college completely fails.

Let's see. A multi-party system. Missouri Synod Republicans, the Tea Party, the Hard-Shell Democrats, and the Southern Democrats (couldn't resist filtering in a few denominational puns).
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:33 PM   #169
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At least we try.

And Harold . . . stop picking on Ohio. He's trying to figure out how to make do with the *stuff* on the market shelves. Just like I am. I read an article like the one zeek linked and I find fault in both the article and the position of the one he was griping about (Gruden or someone like that). We are all faced with pretty bad choices.
Me too. Needless to say, since I stated this whole election cycle is garlic room insanity.

And hey, bro Ohio quoted the Moodies. I can't fault that.

Note Thumbs up again.
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:02 PM   #170
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Let's see. A multi-party system. Missouri Synod Republicans, the Tea Party, the Hard-Shell Democrats, and the Southern Democrats (couldn't resist filtering in a few denominational puns).
Hey Harold ... Tell him about the Yellow Dog and Blue Dog Democrats.
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