Ideals and Institutions, or People?

Cal · 03-15-2018, 08:37 AM

I felt to post something of clarification.

On both sides of the LCM debate is concern and criticism. Each side thinks it is on God’s side, or at least, is defending the most important principles.

Are LCM critics right to say the LCM has erred? Or are LCM defenders right that pursuing their core ideals trumps all else? Who is right? Which side is God on?

To answer that question, I think you have to decide what God really cares about. What are his priorities?

The way I see it God first and foremost cares for people. The first two commandments are love God, love people. The whole Law and Prophets are contained in those two simple commands. There is nothing else. The signature characteristic of the Pharisees is that they cared about their ideals, but did not care about people.

All people are precious. All believers are precious. All LCMers are precious. Steel is precious. Evangelical is a pedantic pain-in-the-rear, but he is still precious. Drake has been very kind to me in private, so it hurts me to have to write that I think he stonewalls. He is precious. All people are precious. We are supposed to be in love and fellowship, not at each other’s throats. Still, we all feel to stand up for what we think is right.

I think it is key to understand that people are more important than ideals and institutions. The Church should not be viewed as an institution apart from God’s people, or as something for which people exist. No, the Church IS God’s people. Jesus left the 99 sheep to find the one lost sheep. None of us are means to an end. We all matter to God. No move or movement or flow or purpose is more important than people. Everything God did is for people, for all of us. Jesus died for people. There is nothing else.

So to me the question becomes: Where are people getting hurt? Where are they getting damaged? You can argue for a theoretical ideal of “oneness." But the lack of it existing cannot be proved to have damaged any one real individual. However, the LCM’s pursuit of such “oneness” can be directly traced to real, identifiable people getting hurt. Did Jesus die for these people so that they would be damaged by someone’s relentless pursuit of an ideal?

God doesn’t give five cents about abstract ideals, whether you call them “oneness” or “the Recovery” or “his purpose” or whatever. God cares about living, breathing, feeling, hoping, hurting people. That’s the way I see it and that’s why I have a problem with how the LCM goes about things. I've seen too many people hurt by how the LCM operates.

So my suggestion is we get back to what God really cares about. When you hear of brothers and sisters being shipwrecked because of how they were treated, don’t just write them off as acceptable collateral damage. Have the heart God has for them and ask, “Is there another way?” There must be.

1 Cor 13
1 John 4:20

ZNPaaneah · 03-16-2018, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

I felt to post something of clarification.

On both sides of the LCM debate is concern and criticism. Each side thinks it is on God’s side, or at least, is defending the most important principles

I would agree that the "most important principles" are summed up in the two greatest laws: to love God and to do unto others as you would have them do to you.

These laws are unlike all other laws which tell you what you can't do, these tell you what you can do and provide you with the full freedom to do that. The Jews were not allowed to eat with Gentiles, but in the church Peter was able to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. These laws require that you are a doer. In a dead religion they tell you what you can't do and want you to be a hearer only.

The next level of deception is revealed in the tongue. Are the words a crystal clear spring of living water, or are they a fire burning down everything in sight? For some reason those who are deceived think they are doing God service when they set the world on fire, whereas pure religion is visiting those in their affliction while keeping yourself from corruption.

manna-man · 03-19-2018, 05:22 PM

Amen Igzy and ZNPaaneah!

My greatest fear is becoming like the religious ones of the day that missed/rejected The Christ.

In our own precious history we have seen unbridled zeal and the aftermath. May we learn to be humble and love people and the simplicity of the good news of our Savior crucified.

awareness · 03-21-2018, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manna-man

Amen Igzy and ZNPaaneah!

My greatest fear is becoming like the religious ones of the day that missed/rejected The Christ.

In our own precious history we have seen unbridled zeal and the aftermath. May we learn to be humble and love people and the simplicity of the good news of our Savior crucified.

Hear! Hear! Hosepipe Jr.

03-15-2018, 08:37 AM	#1
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Ideals and Institutions, or People? I felt to post something of clarification. On both sides of the LCM debate is concern and criticism. Each side thinks it is on God’s side, or at least, is defending the most important principles. Are LCM critics right to say the LCM has erred? Or are LCM defenders right that pursuing their core ideals trumps all else? Who is right? Which side is God on? To answer that question, I think you have to decide what God really cares about. What are his priorities? The way I see it God first and foremost cares for people. The first two commandments are love God, love people. The whole Law and Prophets are contained in those two simple commands. There is nothing else. The signature characteristic of the Pharisees is that they cared about their ideals, but did not care about people. All people are precious. All believers are precious. All LCMers are precious. Steel is precious. Evangelical is a pedantic pain-in-the-rear, but he is still precious. Drake has been very kind to me in private, so it hurts me to have to write that I think he stonewalls. He is precious. All people are precious. We are supposed to be in love and fellowship, not at each other’s throats. Still, we all feel to stand up for what we think is right. I think it is key to understand that people are more important than ideals and institutions. The Church should not be viewed as an institution apart from God’s people, or as something for which people exist. No, the Church IS God’s people. Jesus left the 99 sheep to find the one lost sheep. None of us are means to an end. We all matter to God. No move or movement or flow or purpose is more important than people. Everything God did is for people, for all of us. Jesus died for people. There is nothing else. So to me the question becomes: Where are people getting hurt? Where are they getting damaged? You can argue for a theoretical ideal of “oneness." But the lack of it existing cannot be proved to have damaged any one real individual. However, the LCM’s pursuit of such “oneness” can be directly traced to real, identifiable people getting hurt. Did Jesus die for these people so that they would be damaged by someone’s relentless pursuit of an ideal? God doesn’t give five cents about abstract ideals, whether you call them “oneness” or “the Recovery” or “his purpose” or whatever. God cares about living, breathing, feeling, hoping, hurting people. That’s the way I see it and that’s why I have a problem with how the LCM goes about things. I've seen too many people hurt by how the LCM operates. So my suggestion is we get back to what God really cares about. When you hear of brothers and sisters being shipwrecked because of how they were treated, don’t just write them off as acceptable collateral damage. Have the heart God has for them and ask, “Is there another way?” There must be. 1 Cor 13 1 John 4:20

03-19-2018, 05:22 PM	#3
manna-man Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida Posts: 405	Re: Ideals and Institutions, or People? Amen Igzy and ZNPaaneah! My greatest fear is becoming like the religious ones of the day that missed/rejected The Christ. In our own precious history we have seen unbridled zeal and the aftermath. May we learn to be humble and love people and the simplicity of the good news of our Savior crucified.