Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I must repeat that Chinese culture isn't inferior to that of USA or Germany etc; all are fallen. But in assuming that no trace of worldly human culture tainted his ministry... their blindness remained (cf John chap 9).

An interesting thing about the LC experience is that it began as a reaction to Western imperialism, which came to Asia alongside the gospel imperative. Eventually, WN and the indigenous Chinese church threw off the yoke of the running dogs of the West, i.e. the denominations.

One hundred years later, WL returned the favor. We were willing to accept their Eastern imperialism, and the Asian-flavored kingdom of God, if it gave us a leg up on the gospel. Turns out, that it didn't. The "virgin soil" of China wasn't that virginous, after all.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

An interesting thing about the LC experience is that it began as a reaction to Western imperialism, which came to Asia alongside the gospel imperative. Eventually, WN and the indigenous Chinese church threw off the yoke of the running dogs of the West, i.e. the denominations.

One hundred years later, WL returned the favor. We were willing to accept their Eastern imperialism, and the Asian-flavored kingdom of God, if it gave us a leg up on the gospel. Turns out, that it didn't. The "virgin soil" of China wasn't that virginous, after all.

Just as Europe had their nationalism movement in the mid 19th century, China had theirs in the first half of the 20th century. You could say the so-called recovery movement as seen through Watchman Nee/Witness Lee was part of the nationalism movement.

This thread parallels that somewhat of the Asian Mind and the Western Mind. Those in LSM leadership embrace the characteristic of the Asian culture where authority is absolute and submission is unconditional. As a result those in leadership don't need to be accountable nor responsible to anyone.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

This thread parallels that somewhat of the Asian Mind and the Western Mind. Those in LSM leadership embrace the characteristic of the Asian culture where authority is absolute and submission is unconditional. As a result those in leadership don't need to be accountable nor responsible to anyone.

Originally Posted by Don Hardy

It was a LARGE Mtng (bros. had flown in), and WL was sitting up-front in “the captain’s chair”. John Smith of San Diego, asked him something like this: “WHAT happened with Daystar, WL? Soooo many saints are still suffering. Somehow we have to pay them $$ back”

WL’s answer: something like this (I’ll “never” forget): “They have lost their virginity”.

Dick Taylor was very perplexed, and asked: ”Why, WL, what on earth do you mean?!!”

“Well bros. when the saints first came into Elden Hall, in the “early days” they were all somewhat pure virgins, WHOLLY for the LORD, seeking the Lord, wanting only the Lord. But over Daystar, so many LOST their virginity, they lost their first love. (They got mixed).

Dick (or someone else) said, HOW did that happen WL?

WL said, they were (all) SEDUCED, they lost their virginity!”

And there were MANY brothers there, but NOT one asked, “WHO did the seducing, WL?” I did not ask publicly, but I asked (and was answered) within me! "Why, the "little precious man" sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!"

Notice that this is a big meeting, many "responsible" and "mature" ones have come in from afar, many of the LC members are suffering, and confused, the appearance of unrighteousness or impropriety or malfeasance rears up, and no one says a thing! They couldn't, because their culture had paralyzed them. To question WL in a public setting would make him lose face, and that wasn't an option. Righteousness was optional, but making the leader publicly lose face was simply not possible.

Once you see the cultural element in the Leadership structure of the LC, it is hard not to see it. Because it's so obvious.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

Notice that this is a big meeting, many "responsible" and "mature" ones have come in from afar, many of the LC members are suffering, and confused, the appearance of unrighteousness or impropriety or malfeasance rears up, and no one says a thing! They couldn't, because their culture had paralyzed them. To question WL in a public setting would make him lose face, and that wasn't an option. Righteousness was optional, but making the leader publicly lose face was simply not possible.

Once you see the cultural element in the Leadership structure of the LC, it is hard not to see it. Because it's so obvious.

This is why I don't believe all cultures are equal. They may be equally fallen, but I don't think they are all equal. The fact that none of the strong-willed American brothers like MR could take down WL tells me he was incredibly intelligent, strong-willed, and possibly under the influence of evil spirits.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Don Hardy
And there were MANY brothers there, but NOT one asked, “WHO did the seducing, WL?” I did not ask publicly, but I asked (and was answered) within me! "Why, the "little precious man" sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!"

Originally Posted by HERn

This is why I don't believe all cultures are equal. They may be equally fallen, but I don't think they are all equal. The fact that none of the strong-willed American brothers like MR could take down WL tells me he was incredibly intelligent, strong-willed, and possibly under the influence of evil spirits.

Don Hardy, on a number of occasions, also mentioned the seduction in the Recovery by evil spirits. This goes way beyond the influence of culture, which aron has often discussed on the forum.

I believe the delusion of evil spirits was most evident when men who knew better actively halted the voice in their conscience in order to silence the prophets God sent to us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

This is why I don't believe all cultures are equal. They may be equally fallen, but I don't think they are all equal..

One leader who I respect today is George Washington. Washington was surrounded by brilliant and able men: Hamilton, Madison, Jefferson, etc. but he wasn't threatened by them. He was secure, not in his position but in his person. He never cared about position, either his or others'. As a result, men like Hamilton were able to flourish, and use their powers of rhetoric and persuasion, because they didn't have to constantly look over their shoulders at the Commander in Chief.

WL said we in the LC were an army, not a democracy - he'd have done well to look at the Continental Army that Washington commanded. People in Washington's army had opinions, and were allowed to voice them. After "much discussion", a la Acts 15:7, the generals of the army would reach consensus, and General Washington would pronounce his opinion of the consensus, and the army would move.

Where was the "much discussion" in Witness Lee's Army? Where was mutuality, the "submit to one another"? No, it was 1) Know Who's Boss, and 2) Get in Line.

Originally Posted by HERn

The fact that none of the strong-willed American brothers like MR could take down WL tells me he was incredibly intelligent, strong-willed, and possibly under the influence of evil spirits.

But WL was abetted by a system. The man is gone but the system remains. It would be good to expose it for what it is. You know, fallen human culture and fallen spirits are not that far apart - they're arguably quite related. One is motivated by the other, and the other takes refuge in the one, and is manifested through it.

And if you begin to critically compare Recovery "church life experience" with scripture, it soon begins to reveal of what sort it is. LSM is practiced in the art of critique (see e.g. Affirmation and Critique, etc); they'd do well to be subject to the same.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One leader who I respect today is George Washington. Washington was surrounded by brilliant and able men: Hamilton, Madison, Jefferson, etc. but he wasn't threatened by them. He was secure, not in his position but in his person. He never cared about position, either his or others'. As a result, men like Hamilton were able to flourish, and use their powers of rhetoric and persuasion, because they didn't have to constantly look over their shoulders at the Commander in Chief.

But WL was abetted by a system. The man is gone but the system remains. It would be good to expose it for what it is. You know, fallen human culture and fallen spirits are not that far apart - they're arguably quite related. One is motivated by the other, and the other takes refuge in the one, and is manifested through it.

Since I have seen these fallen characteristics in both the Recovery and Brethrenism, I am under the belief that religious (think Laodicean) pride, manifested in exclusivism and elitism, produces basically insecure leaders who must be the recipient of all the glory the system provides. I personally have witnessed this on the local, regional, and national level, and that is why I believe this disease is systemic and inherent to the system.

I remember years ago a family counselor explained to me that unhealthy self-esteem can manifest itself either as depression or egotistical behavior. This surprised me at the time, since I was more familiar with the "down" side of unhealthy self-esteem, but equally unhealthy were those with a bully-nature, glory-possessed, and megalomanic personalities.

One of the common complaints I have heard working with LC leaders is their obsession with having all the ideas. Since they are supposedly next in line to the throne of God, it must always be so. This goes two ways. Whether their idea is good or worthless, all must promote it unquestioningly, and continually sing its praises. But, should the idea of an underling be accepted, THE MAN will always steal it and make it his own, and like before, all must promote it unquestioningly, and continually sing its praises.

That is why I have concluded that at the root of all the so-called "storms" or quarantines, or whatever language is used to spin them, is the fallen nature of talented egotistical men to eliminate potential rivals who might share their glory. Though not a church leader, apparently G. Dubya escaped these pitfalls, and the country was blessed for it. When James and John exhibited these traits among the early disciples, Jesus was able to nip it in the bud, and the church has been blessed for it.

With all their great learning and abundant talents, ministers like Darby, Lee, and Chu have not learned these same lessons. In their early days, other gifted men surrounded the movements and flourished, but eventually one-by-one they were driven out as potential rivals due to their "independent" thinking, and those sycophants who remained also rose to preeminence in the program.