How Much To Throw Out?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

My experience was that the more "absolute" the brother the closer he followed the teaching of WL and the less he referred to the bible on spiritual matters. It was WL or the highway. I would be ok with "it's Paul or the highway" because at least Paul was inspired to write parts of the New Testament which led to billions of Christians on the earth. Does anyone really equate WL with Paul?

I would like to hear from our dear recovery bothers and sisters why they think WL was the minister of the age, apostle, oracle of God, etc.

Originally Posted by HERn

I would like to hear from our dear recovery bothers and sisters why they think WL was the minister of the age, apostle, oracle of God, etc.

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

[UntoHim]

Thanks for checking in Unregistered Guest.

Just a few comments from me.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

- The experiences of life were richer

Richer than what? No need to name names or individual ministers or churches, but I think I'm going to pin you down a bit on this one. Witness Lee claimed to have searched the entire earth and (since 1945) couldn't find anyone else who spoke as God's oracle. Are you as world traveled as Lee, and thus qualified make such a bold proclamation? So Lee's ministry was richer than what?

- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together

Again, deeper than what? What made Witness Lee so qualified to "collectively fit together" "the truths in the bible" to such a degree as to be considered as more authoritative and/or enlightening then any of his contemporaries? It certainly wasn't his formal education - He had none. It certainly wasn't his grasp of the deeper meaning of words and phrases in the original languages - He was decidedly ignorant of Hebrew and Koine Greek. It wasn't his garnering of a wide range of knowledge and experience of other Christian teachers, ministers, scholars and apologists - he refused to fellowship with anyone outside of the exclusive sect that he created and tightly controlled.

- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Now on this one the Local Church has far exceeded the efforts of the vast majority of other Christian denominations, ministries or services. They have MUCH to contribute to the Body of Christ in the matter of hospitality and service within the local church. It's just too bad that the other stuff (mentioned above) keeps them separated from their other brothers and sisters in Christ, who in turn have MUCH to contribute to their brothers and sisters in the Local Church. ***This is one reason why this forum was initiated and is now maintained on the Internet***

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

1 Corinthians 9:2
If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

I don't think anyone has ever had a problem with Witness Lee being considered as an apostle to his own followers (although he vehemently denied he held any such office or title), but many, including many of us who sat under his ministry for decades, do have a big problem with Lee being considered "the one apostle with the one ministry for the age", "the one oracle on earth", "the one master builder", etc. We have seen, heard and experienced too much over the past 40-50 years to just let this kind of understanding of this man go unchallenged. ***And yes, for better or for worse, this is another reason this forum was initiated and maintained on the Internet***
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[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

You can't say the experiences of life were richer unless you've experienced every other alternative.

"Deeper," eh? And what does that buy you? If it doesn't buy you a closer relationship with God then it's worthless, and I have seen little evidence that it does. In fact, I would say many of Lee's teachings hinder a relationship with God.

As for "fitting together," this was a fetish of Lee's and was often forced, leading to misplace priorities. His "local ground" teaching is a classic example.

The relationships in the LCM are fine. But they are diminished by the fact that LCMers have very little relationship with those outside the movement. This is lead's me to believe the internal LCM relationships are based more on common culture than a common relationship with God.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

If that's all it takes to be the minister of the age it's kind of a low bar. Seems like depending upon the person there could be many bible teachers who could qualify. What makes WL unique? Also, it seems kind of subjective. The same could be said of many men or women that people decide to follow.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

The "go in peace" here reminds me of "be warmed and filled" of James 2:14: both phrases seem benign and innocuous, yet they conceal a spiritual virus. Initially the Local Church spread through the USA, based on the idea that all Christians were one, in the same faith, same Spirit, same Christ and Lord, same God and Father. Therefore all Christians in any "locality" or geographical area could stand together as the one church, fellowship, assembly, or testimony.

But this "one church" was a trojan horse for the "one ministry of the age", and all who couldn't "get in line", as Witness Lee's predecessor Watchman Nee had made it clear a half-century before, were shed from the system. "Go in peace." Or as some put it, "The Recovery is not for everyone". Wait - I thought the central premise that it WAS for everyone? Oh, the old Bait and Switch.

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, including 9:2, where does he claim the one ministry of the age? He says he is "an" apostle, not "the" apostle. In fact he derides the supposedly super-apostles. Surely such ones will rise up, and lead many astray. And surely the Body should identify them for what they are.

In the Local Church, many gave years and even decades to build up the church but were eventually given two options: Either you're with us and our abject subjection to centralized leadership, or you're out. Go in peace, i.e. go away quietly. Thanks for all your help, now beat it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The "go in peace" here reminds me of "be warmed and filled" of James 2:14: both phrases seem benign and innocuous, yet they conceal a spiritual virus..

I had to chuckle at this one, but pointed indeed. (Btw, James 2.16)

Originally Posted by aron

But this "one church" was a trojan horse for the "one ministry of the age."

Say it isn't so!

How unfortunate that the repeated facts of history support this!

Originally Posted by aron

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, including 9:2, where does he claim the one ministry of the age? He says he is "an" apostle, not "the" apostle. In fact he derides the supposedly super-apostles.

Excellent points, which none of us loyal to the movement ever considered.

Originally Posted by aron

In the Local Church, many gave years and even decades to build up the church but were eventually given two options: Either you're with us and our abject subjection to centralized leadership, or you're out. Go in peace, i.e. go away quietly. Thanks for all your help, now beat it.

This was exactly my case in 2005. I had given 30 of my best years to the Recovery, thru good times and bad, and two migrations. But we were all given the choice to "stand for the truth" with the Blendeds, or "stand for the truth" with Titus Chu.

Some were then more upset with me for posting on the forum than for leaving. For years we were instructed, "if you leave, leave as a gentleman," which means keep your mouth shut and disappear. I decided to "stand for the truth" and report to others how we had gone off course, like the exclusive Brethren before us.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This was exactly my case in 2005. I had given 30 of my best years to the Recovery, thru good times and bad, and two migrations. But we were all given the choice to "stand for the truth" with the Blendeds, or "stand for the truth" with Titus Chu.

Some were then more upset with me for posting on the forum than for leaving. For years we were instructed, "if you leave, leave as a gentleman," which means keep your mouth shut and disappear. I decided to "stand for the truth" and report to others how we had gone off course, like the exclusive Brethren before us.

I'm so sorry this had to happen. It sounds like the end of a bad marriage. "Leave as a gentleman" is manipulative, as if on some level, they knew there was a lot to hide.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Renee

I'm so sorry this had to happen. It sounds like the end of a bad marriage. "Leave as a gentleman" is manipulative, as if on some level, they knew there was a lot to hide.

Manipulation in the LC was so rampant and accepted, that even the more kind-hearted brothers would repeat what was inflicted on them without their even noticing it.

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

Thank you, brother, for sharing your experience. That was very brave, kind, and thoughtful of you.

Could you also describe the fruit of your experience in the LRC? What is it like? I mean, how your rich experiences and the enlightenment transformed your personality and influenced on the relationship with people outside of the Lord’s Recovery? Could you please tell about the changes?

Thanks and God bless.