Choosing to See No Iniquity in Israel

[Indiana]

A brother who had condemned my “slanderous websites” had apologized to me when we crossed paths one evening. He said, “I don’t know, I just don’t know”. I followed up with an email to him a few days later and he responded reminding me that God sees no iniquity in Israel…


twoturmoils.com/ChoosingtoSeeNoIniquityinIsrael.pdf

[Ohio]

In Steve's article, he quotes these comments from a friend of his in the LC's ...

The time that I do have I must spend in the current ministry, which is building up the Body of Christ. I don't have time to look back at the past. As brother Lee made clear long ago, we would be foolish to look for bones and feathers when there is fresh meat to eat.

If you feel it your calling to do that, then please don't involve me in your endeavor. From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church. If the Lord doesn't see it, then I also will choose to not see iniquity.

I was this way myself, since I spent my best 30 years in the Recovery, so I can readily understand this dear brother quite well.

But let's look at what we can conclude from what Steve's friend has told us ...

• Lee has convinced us that only his ministry is for the "building up of the body of Christ"
• Lee convinced us that only his ministry was "fresh meat to eat"
• Why is it that Lee could regularly condemn all of Christianity, and no one dared to challenge him about eating all the "bones and feathers" there?
• How did Lee ever convince us that it was OK to constantly "see iniquity" in the body of Christ, but not in his Recovery?

[UntoHim]

Typical response from a longtime follower of Witness Lee....quoting scripture totally out of context, because that is how many of Lee's teachings present the scriptures - totally and hopelessly out of context. The fact is that this dear saint probably doesn't even know the context of Numbers 23, only that they are defending the indefensible.

First of all, the context, the ACTUAL context, from which this is coming from is so far removed from the defending of a tiny, insignificant Christian sect (which, by the way, came about 3,500 after Numbers was written) that it really doesn't even deserve a response. But I hail you brother Steve for giving it try!

Secondly, this does bring forth the mindset of the typical Local Churcher - that their teeny, tiny religious organization/sect is actually to be compared to biblical Israel. I mean, if it weren't so sad it would actually be funny. May God have mercy.

[awareness]

We can deny that stink exists til the cows come home, but we can't avoid stink.

It was too stinky for me when I left the church back in early 80s. And whenever I check back with the local church since, it's gotten stinker.

Solution, for the LCer's? Deny harder. Deny deeper. Deny like praying.

How's that working out for you? How's it smell?

[Indiana]

Dear Local Church saints, in initiating this thread, it is not my intention to offend you as Local Church members, but to bring attention to serious concerns that have existed for far too long.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Dear Local Church saints, in initiating this thread, it is not my intention to offend you as Local Church members, but to bring attention to serious concerns that have existed for far too long. If anyone associated with LSM (including leaders) disagrees, you are certainly welcome to try to uplift our discussion here with your fellowship and accommodation of us and our concerns.

This forum scene should end, but much depends on your help and cooperation in a spirit of love. The respect level between us needs to rise that genuine ongoing fellowship might be be obtained.

I won't hold my breath ...

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In Steve's article, he quotes these comments from a friend of his in the LC's ...
I was this way myself, since I spent my best 30 years in the Recovery, so I can readily understand this dear brother quite well.

But let's look at what we can conclude from what Steve's friend has told us ...

• Lee has convinced us that only his ministry is for the "building up of the body of Christ"
• Lee convinced us that only his ministry was "fresh meat to eat"
• Why is it that Lee could regularly condemn all of Christianity, and no one dared to challenge him about eating all the "bones and feathers" there?
• How did Lee ever convince us that it was OK to constantly "see iniquity" in the body of Christ, but not in his Recovery?

Good points Ohio. And, as UntoHim says, they only know to defend the indefensible. This, in fact, is how they are trained. But Jerry is a brother who did concede a bit after his first email.

Jerry's first email 2010

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out
that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you
maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding
at least eight coworkers and several elders.

"Hearing about evidence such as a nearly two inch stack of emails that you wrote regarding Joel
Kennon, and the fact that you maintain much contact with ones who oppose the Lord’s Recovery
such as John Ingalls, leaves me no alternative but to discontinue my contact with you.

"Regardless of what new ones you want to introduce to me, there is no way I can have fellowship
with you. Your behavior is divisive, and you have not shown any willingness to repent. If you
reply that these facts are not true, then I’ll only believe that after you’ve taken down your
slanderous web sites and come face to face with Sherman and Joel and the other elders in Seattle
and Bellevue and retract the materials you have written. [My emphasis]

"You told me that you want to be allowed to fellowship with the church in Bellevue, yet
your actions tell another story. I have given the Lord and His Recovery thirty seven years of my
life, and there is no other life I desire to live. Don’t bother sending me any more emails. I’m
just going to delete them anyways. J. M. Dec 2010

"Jerry admitted that he had not read my writings before sending me that email. When we again met – sovereignly - four months later, I confronted him about his email. He had read some of my material by this time and within minutes offered an apology to me for his rush to judgment in his email, and said, “I don’t know; I just don’t know”. That is true. Without thorough investigation, no one, including the leaders know."

"Still your brother in Christ, (Jerry's email was included here at the end of a letter to Ray, an elder)

"Steve Isitt
June 16, 2013"
................................................

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Jerry's first email 2010

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding at least eight coworkers and several elders.

Regardless of what new ones you want to introduce to me, there is no way I can have fellowship with you. Your behavior is divisive, and you have not shown any willingness to repent. If you reply that these facts are not true, then I’ll only believe that after you’ve taken down your
slanderous web sites and come face to face with Sherman and Joel and the other elders in Seattle and Bellevue and retract the materials you have written. [My emphasis]

You told me that you want to be allowed to fellowship with the church in Bellevue, yet your actions tell another story. I have given the Lord and His Recovery thirty seven years of my life, and there is no other life I desire to live. Don’t bother sending me any more emails. I’m just going to delete them anyways. J. M. Dec 2010

I remember Jerry M. from Cleveland. He is a dear brother who loves the Lord and his people, but sorry to say ... he keeps drinking that Kool-Aid without reading the ingredients.

If Jerry M. (originally from Milwaukee, and also was in Kent) feels this strongly about Steve Isitt, I can't imagine how he feels about Titus Chu, all the elders and workers in the GLA, and all the LC's in the area which were excommunicated by the Blindeds in Anaheim at LSM.

I would like to ask rhetorically whose behavior is the most divisive, and who is in need of repenting the most? I doubt if it is any of these one talented members who have invested their lives in the Recovery. I place the bulk of the responsibility on those rotten leaders at LSM.

the real issue at hand is choosing to see no iniquity in witness lee. it's always about witness lee. It was about witness lee back in the 70s with the max rapaport debacle it was about witness lee with the john ingalls debacle it was about witness lee with the titus chu great lakes debacle. it is never about God or his word. it is always about witness lee. "who do men say that I am"? sadly it is now "who do men say that witness lee is"? what part of personality cult do you people not understand? the biannual training just finished. was the name of anybody else mentioned besides witness lee? Oh maybe watchman nee was mentioned in passing (even though he is the founder of the local church) maybe even the name of jesus Christ was mentioned a few times. whos name is on every book, on every cd on everything? is it jesus Christ? is it even God? no many times no. it is witness lee.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In Steve's article, he quotes these comments from a friend of his in the LC's ...
I was this way myself, since I spent my best 30 years in the Recovery, so I can readily understand this dear brother quite well.

But let's look at what we can conclude from what Steve's friend has told us ...

• Lee has convinced us that only his ministry is for the "building up of the body of Christ"
• Lee convinced us that only his ministry was "fresh meat to eat"
• Why is it that Lee could regularly condemn all of Christianity, and no one dared to challenge him about eating all the "bones and feathers" there?
• How did Lee ever convince us that it was OK to constantly "see iniquity" in the body of Christ, but not in his Recovery?

These are some good points. It’s not too difficult to understand why the attitude develops of “choosing to see no iniquity in Israel”. I was definitely of that mindset in the past, and I thought that because the LC was something special, it made it okay to ignore concerns. One of the big issues is, of course, the double standard that Lee applied. He could criticize anyone he chose, but when the criticism was directed at him, all the sudden, it became unacceptable.

[Freedom]

Are you in Anaheim as a spy, investigating whether or not Witness Lee has any "dung"? I cannot live without "dung." To be sure, both "feathers" and "bones" can be found here in Anaheim. The elders have made many "bones." But I would stand, even dance, upon all the "bones" they have made; I would not be so foolish as to eat them.

Three or four of us knew Brother Nee very intimately. He fully opened himself to us, and we knew his imperfections… When a great turmoil was aroused against his ministry, I was not ashamed to say that I was an absolute follower of Brother Nee. I did not care what others said about his mistakes…

How foolish it would be for anyone in the church to devote his time to finding "dung" or stuffing his pockets with "feathers," saying, "This is a 'feather' from that 'chicken' Witness Lee, and these are the 'bones' of the church in Anaheim. Don't you know that the church in Anaheim has made mistakes?" If this is your intention, you are wasting your time…Whatever Witness Lee is, he is what he is. Whether the church is genuine or not, the church is what the church is. Neither the church in Anaheim nor my ministry is afraid of exposure. On the contrary, we appreciate it. But what will you gain by exposing us?

Life-Study of Genesis, Message 88

I had to post the above excerpt, because I remembered coming across it years back when I was reading the LS of Genesis. At the time, it struck me as a bit peculiar, because I had never considered there could be much of any "feathers and bones" in the LC. I was so caught up in what I perceived to be the "good" of the LC, that it didn't occur to me that there would be any reason to concern myself with such matters.

When I read Lee's words now, I see him pushing the notion that everyone was out to find his faults or the faults in the local churches. I really think that I would be hard-pressed to find anyone who has made a sport out of criticizing Lee. As far as I am aware, all of the criticism which has been directed at him and the LCM has been done out of genuine concern to address serious matters related both to doctrine and practices.

I'm sure Lee knew that there was a bit too much "dung" surrounding his ministry, and he needed a way to insulate himself from that. What better way than to tell everyone not to worry about the feathers and bones? Generally speaking, people are often willing to ignore the bad for the greater good of things. Lee knew that, and he took advantage of that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

. . . what part of personality cult do you people not understand? . . .

Amen bro Unregistered. I sure wish you would join. I need backup.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding at least eight coworkers and several elders.

If there are such websites full of slander regarding the Lord's Recovery, how come there have not been any legal lawsuits brought forth by DCP? Has there ever been threats of lawsuit by DCP?
Unless DCP knows the websites are truthful and DCP knows they cannot risk brothers being deposed under oath.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would like to ask rhetorically whose behavior is the most divisive, and who is in need of repenting the most? I doubt if it is any of these one talented members who have invested their lives in the Recovery. I place the bulk of the responsibility on those rotten leaders at LSM.

Exactly Ohio! Actually brothers identified as being divisive (Nigel Tomes, John Ingalls, etc) are actually concerned brothers reacting to divisiveness. There is a common denominator of the late 80's and that of the GLA turmoil. Those currently in the lead at LSM were part of the problem in both turmoils instead of being part of the solution.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A brother who had condemned my “slanderous websites” had apologized to me when we crossed paths one evening. He said, “I don’t know, I just don’t know”. I followed up with an email to him a few days later and he responded reminding me that God sees no iniquity in Israel…


twoturmoils.com/ChoosingtoSeeNoIniquityinIsrael.pdf

This "brother" has obviously never read the Old Testament. Seeing no iniquity in Israel? Are you kidding me? Much of the writing of the prophets is consumed with God citing the iniquity in Israel. Just read Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or just about any of the OT prophets and you will see God seeing a lot of iniquity in Israel. Yes, he promises to save and not forsake completely. But he also promises to judge severely.

Jeremiah 5

5 “Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem,
look around and consider,
search through her squares.
If you can find but one person
who deals honestly and seeks the truth,
I will forgive this city.

2 Although they say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’
still they are swearing falsely.”

3 Lord, do not your eyes look for truth?
You struck them, but they felt no pain;
you crushed them, but they refused correction.
They made their faces harder than stone
and refused to repent.

4 I thought, “These are only the poor;
they are foolish,
for they do not know the way of the Lord,
the requirements of their God.

5 So I will go to the leaders
and speak to them;
surely they know the way of the Lord,
the requirements of their God.”
But with one accord they too had broken off the yoke
and torn off the bonds.

6 Therefore a lion from the forest will attack them,
a wolf from the desert will ravage them,
a leopard will lie in wait near their towns
to tear to pieces any who venture out,
for their rebellion is great
and their backslidings many.

7 “Why should I forgive you?
Your children have forsaken me
and sworn by gods that are not gods.
I supplied all their needs,
yet they committed adultery
and thronged to the houses of prostitutes.

8 They are well-fed, lusty stallions,
each neighing for another man’s wife.

9 Should I not punish them for this?”
declares the Lord.
“Should I not avenge myself
on such a nation as this?

10 “Go through her vineyards and ravage them,
but do not destroy them completely.
Strip off her branches,
for these people do not belong to the Lord.

11 The people of Israel and the people of Judah
have been utterly unfaithful to me,”
declares the Lord.

12 They have lied about the Lord;
they said, “He will do nothing!
No harm will come to us;
we will never see sword or famine.

13 The prophets are but wind
and the word is not in them;
so let what they say be done to them.”

14 Therefore this is what the Lord God Almighty says:
“Because the people have spoken these words,
I will make my words in your mouth a fire
and these people the wood it consumes.

15 People of Israel,” declares the Lord,
“I am bringing a distant nation against you—
an ancient and enduring nation,
a people whose language you do not know,
whose speech you do not understand.

16 Their quivers are like an open grave;
all of them are mighty warriors.

17 They will devour your harvests and food,
devour your sons and daughters;
they will devour your flocks and herds,
devour your vines and fig trees.
With the sword they will destroy
the fortified cities in which you trust.

18 “Yet even in those days,” declares the Lord, “I will not destroy you completely.

[Cal]

"See no iniquity in Israel?!?" Anyone who has read the OT knows that God is continually seeing and rebuking and promising to judge Israel for its gross sins. I thought LCMers were supposed to know the Bible!

This whole thing has become so bizarre and around the bend. White has become black, and truth, darkness.

It is so ironic that the LCM treats modern day prophets like Indiana just like the corrupt leaders of Israel treated the prophets of that day.

Who are today's prophets, LCM? Who is speaking truth to power? You don't even believe in prophets. You believe anyone who speaks against you is a deadly dissenter. Did it ever occur to you that is the way the leaders of Israel viewed the prophets of that day?? Do you think the Jews liked it when Ezekiel said the following to them? Do you think they called him a "dissenter?"

Ezekiel 5

5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations,
with countries all around her.

6 Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees
more than the nations and countries around her.
She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees.

7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
You have been more unruly than the nations around you
and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws.
You have not even conformed to the standards of the nations around you.

8 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you
in the sight of the nations.

9 Because of all your detestable idols,
I will do to you what I have never done before
and will never do again.

10 Therefore in your midst parents will eat their children,
and children will eat their parents.
I will inflict punishment on you
and will scatter all your survivors to the winds.

11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord,
because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images
and detestable practices, I myself will shave you;
I will not look on you with pity or spare you.

12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish
by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls;
and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

13 Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside,
and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath on them,
they will know that I the Lord have spoken in my zeal.

14 I will make you a ruin and a reproach among the nations around you,
in the sight of all who pass by.

15 You will be a reproach and a taunt,
a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you
when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath
and with stinging rebuke.
I the Lord have spoken.

16 When I shoot at you with my deadly
and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you.
I will bring more and more famine upon you
and cut off your supply of food.

17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you,
and they will leave you childless.
Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you,
and I will bring the sword against you.
I the Lord have spoken.”

[HERn]

Love your sign-off Igzy; "The bottom line is, I was crazy enough to be in the LC, and sane enough to leave."

I don't know which was crazier; me joining the LC, or believing this tiny Christian sect was the equivalent of biblical Israel. Of course it might not end up being so tiny if all the underground house churches in China end up under LSM and the BBs.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

Love your sign-off Igzy; "The bottom line is, I was crazy enough to be in the LC, and sane enough to leave."

I don't know which was crazier; me joining the LC, or believing this tiny Christian sect was the equivalent of biblical Israel. Of course it might not end up being so tiny if all the underground house churches in China end up under LSM and the BBs.

Not to fear. I read Eastern Lightning (1 million strong) is hijacking the house churches.

The “Lord Changshou” sect

One branch of the Shouters held Witness Lee in such high esteem that they began to regard his authority and status as greater than Christ’s.[16] They called Witness Lee, “Lord Changshou” [17] (Changshou is Witness Lee’s given name).
http://www.facts.org.cn/ebook/201310...11_1137654.htm

The Local Church:

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not to fear. I read Eastern Lightning (1 million strong) is hijacking the house churches.

The “Lord Changshou” sect

One branch of the Shouters held Witness Lee in such high esteem that they began to regard his authority and status as greater than Christ’s.[16] They called Witness Lee, “Lord Changshou” [17] (Changshou is Witness Lee’s given name).
http://www.facts.org.cn/ebook/201310...11_1137654.htm

In March 1989, Mr. Zhao was made head of the Changshou sect in Heilongjiang and was named “Lord of Power”. He Zhexun was made the Leader of the Hengshan Church (a Shouter church).

At the end of 1990 because of pressure from the public security authorities and other reasons, the Changshou sect was broken up. Mr. Zhao saw his opportunity and sent some of his core people to various Changshou sect areas and got those believers to believe in the Lord of Power (that is, himself) instead of Witness Lee. He wrote his own tract, called “Preaching the Word”. Under this tract’s influence, his followers gave up the Bible and Witness Lee’s Life-Study of the Bible.

The DCP website denies any link between the LC, and Eastern Lightning, but all evidence that I've seen suggest otherwise. The "Lord Changshou" sect is apparently the missing link between the two. It's some scary stuff.

[TLFisher]

From Micah 3,

And I said,


“Hear now, heads of Jacob
And rulers of the house of Israel.
Is it not for you to know justice?
2 “You who hate good and love evil,
Who tear off their skin from them
And their flesh from their bones,
3 Who eat the flesh of my people,
Strip off their skin from them,
Break their bones
And chop them up as for the pot
And as meat in a kettle.”
4 Then they will cry out to the Lord,
But He will not answer them.
Instead, He will hide His face from them at that time
Because they have practiced evil deeds.

5 Thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who lead my people astray;


When they have something to bite with their teeth,
They cry, “Peace,”
But against him who puts nothing in their mouths
They declare holy war.
6 Therefore it will be night for you—without vision,
And darkness for you—without divination.
The sun will go down on the prophets,
And the day will become dark over them.
7 The seers will be ashamed
And the diviners will be embarrassed.
Indeed, they will all cover their mouths
Because there is no answer from God.
8 On the other hand I am filled with power—
With the Spirit of the Lord—
And with justice and courage
To make known to Jacob his rebellious act,
Even to Israel his sin.
9 Now hear this, heads of the house of Jacob
And rulers of the house of Israel,
Who abhor justice
And twist everything that is straight,
10 Who build Zion with bloodshed
And Jerusalem with violent injustice.
11 Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe,
Her priests instruct for a price
And her prophets divine for money.
Yet they lean on the Lord saying,
“Is not the Lord in our midst?
Calamity will not come upon us.”
12 Therefore, on account of you
Zion will be plowed as a field,
Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.

[Cal]

Yes, it's settled. God saw no iniquity in Israel. That's why he spent ABOUT HALF THE OLD TESTAMENT REBUKING THEM FOR THEIR SINS AND WARNING THEM OF JUDGEMENT!

The reference is to Numbers 23:21. "He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither has he seen perverseness in Israel." Commentators agree that this is reference to forgiveness, not blindness to sin.

Thus in the worst possible way the LCM indulges in the "free ticket to heaven/fire insurance with no responsibility" view for which they so long and mockingly excoriated the rest of Christianity!!

You just can't make this stuff up, folks. You cannot make it up.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

Love your sign-off Igzy; "The bottom line is, I was crazy enough to be in the LC, and sane enough to leave."

I had a feeling you of all people would appreciate that.

[TLFisher]

Jerry said to Steve; "From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church."

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.
But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’"

Revelation 2:1-7

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

Jerry said to Steve; "From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church."

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.
But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’"

Revelation 2:1-7

Good point Terry. It's worth noting that none of the seven churches in Revelation were exempted from an "analysis", even the church which was not in erring.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A brother who had condemned my “slanderous websites” had apologized to me when we crossed paths one evening.

Seems whether one is using the word slander or slanderous, in LC circles it's used loosely and liberally much as "false accusations" was liberally used on another forum.
In essence whenever there was something that portrayed the local churches or local church leaders in a negative light that's when words of slander and false accusations are loosely employed.
Keep in mind these so-called slanderous websites predated the Harvest House lawsuit. Specifically, Steve's Hiding History website. If it was indeed slanderous, don't you think DCP/LSM would have taken a lawsuit against Steve? At that junction, LSM had not experienced a lawsuit not in their favor. That is until Harvest House.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I had to post the excerpt [post #11], because I remembered coming across it years back when I was reading the LS of Genesis. At the time, it struck me as a bit peculiar...

Lee knew that there was a bit too much "dung" surrounding his ministry, and he needed a way to insulate himself from that. What better way than to tell everyone not to worry about the feathers and bones? Generally speaking, people are often willing to ignore the bad for the greater good of things. Lee knew that, and he took advantage of that.

Paul wasn't willing to ignore the bad for the greater good, in writing the Corinthians. "What is this I hear concerning you...?"

Nor in his letter to the Galatians. Paul was willing to see iniquity in Israel, and to address it for what it was.

Likewise James was willing to note partiality among believers, in receiving others according to social status. And James was willing to call it out for what it was.

Actually in the NT record, the greater good seemed to involve pointing out the glaringly obvious. But if someone thinks that the greater good requires people to say, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand", what kind of church is it that they're protecting?

[OBW]

I note that Igzy added two important posts back in July pointing to God's clear observation of Israe's iniquity.

Let's take it one step further. If there is no iniquity in the church, then why the letters in Revelation 2 and 3?

That should be enough to shoot this idea in the head.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I note that Igzy added two important posts back in July pointing to God's clear observation of Israe's iniquity.

Let's take it one step further. If there is no iniquity in the church, then why the letters in Revelation 2 and 3?

That should be enough to shoot this idea in the head.

And what is the motive to mention the glaring "bones and feathers" that emerge from the Lee-led church life and teachings? You can't hide them, so you have to explain them away. And the companion argument, if you can't explain them away, is "Just ignore them", followed by a verse or two which supposedly settles the matter.

By contrast in the OT you have Ezekiel and Jeremiah (and others like Amos), and in the NT you have Paul's admonitions, some rather pointed I think, you have James and Jude and Peter's epistolary comments, and Rvelations 2 and 3.

Lastly, we ought to mention that Lee saw a lot of iniquity in Christianity, i.e. in everyone else. He just couldn't stand it when the same jaundiced eye swung round and faced his oeuvre.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

And what is the motive to mention the glaring "bones and feathers" that emerge from the Lee-led church life and teachings? You can't hide them, so you have to explain them away. And the companion argument, if you can't explain them away, is "Just ignore them", followed by a verse or two which supposedly settles the matter.

Lee was both defensive of the "bones and feathers" of his ministry, and he was quick to assume that others were purposely seeking to point them out. It seems that became a theme within the LC, that all the so-called "negative ones" had some vendetta against the LC.

What is striking is that there was no denial that the "bones and feathers" existed. Of course, it was made clear that members were to turn a blind eye to such things. It is rather obvious that this was a type of conditioned reaction rather than there being any real reason to ignore all the chaff, as Lee would have wanted everyone to believe.

Just as an analogy, when a president leaves office, he will not be remembered so much by his successes, but by the sum of all he has done in office, both the good and bad. To assume that the all the good done can justify all the bad is a bit of a stretch. Unfortunately, that is exactly what Lee tried claim.

[Cal]

Lee resented people pointing out his "bones and feathers" but liberally commented on the "bones and feathers" of everyone else. I remember him commenting judgmentally on a Christian teacher he met with one time who smoked a pipe. His point was the man could not possibly have any clarity because he smoked a pipe, and that this was another reason those in the "Recovery" were so much better that those outside of it.

Please tell that to C.S. Lewis.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lee resented people pointing out his "bones and feathers" but liberally commented on the "bones and feathers" of everyone else. I remember him commenting judgmentally on a Christian teacher he met with one time who smoked a pipe. His point was the man could not possibly have any clarity because he smoked a pipe, and that this was another reason those in the "Recovery" were so much better that those outside of it.

Please tell that to C.S. Lewis.

I have great respect for C.S. Lewis, and I always have. That is despite what I know about his lifestyle. The thing is, as far as I am aware, his lifestyle wasn't something that interfered with what he was doing. From a public perspective, his smoking and pub visits were completely benign. I can't say that I've run into many people who have expressed much criticism towards C.S. Lewis. Maybe a LCer or two has rolled their eyes, but that's about it.

Lee on the other hand, had the tendency to make his personal problems into everyone's problems. He didn't smoke, drink or play mahjong. But his itch for business ventures, family entanglements, authoritarian ways, etc, all had a profound effect on everyone. So much of Lee's "bones and feathers" were not just things that could be ignored. I by no means think that every little defect in someone is worth making an issue out of, but there is a reasonable line that can be drawn as to what's acceptable and what's not.

So why did Lee get the free pass to nitpick and point out others faults, but his own highly visible faults that severely affected others were off limits? What a hypocrite he was!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

... why did Lee get the free pass to nitpick and point out others faults, but his own highly visible faults that severely affected others were off limits? What a hypocrite he was!

Now, now, don't forget the cardinal rule: "When others do it, it is hypocrisy, but when we do it, it is not hypocrisy." Remember the song, "So subjective is my Christ to me, real in me and rich and sweet..."? We must realize how subjective this Christ was - so subjective, real and rich and sweet that objective reality, i.e. the outside world (with its possible unpleasant adjustments), could not be allowed in. In other words, delusion; and it doesn't matter how many thousands you suck into your hermetically-sealed world, it's still a delusion.

I'm going to quote from another thread, on a brother's experience in the Dong Yu Lan offshoot of the Nee/Lee group. The testifying brother, here, was involved in the business of spreading EAV literature, and had some concerns about what he was seeing, and its disparity with the scriptural text.

Originally Posted by aron

I just repeated the observations he (Dong Yu Lan) had made in the letter that I write to him, pointing to the problem of discomfort on the promotion of Dong Yu Lan and AV by congregations over the name of the Lord, and neglect the Word of the Apostles and of the Lord Jesus Himself in particular the emphasis on the teaching and practice with respect to business.

At this point there was something quite remarkable. When I mentioned that it was unacceptable that the "restoration" ignore the words of the Lord Jesus, so I started to quote the verse that Jesus spoke in the temple, "it is written, my house ..." (Luke 19:46). I could not finish. Dong Yu Lan stood up and started screaming, "Enough! Enough! U will not convince me of anything. If u want to follow me, follow me, if u do not want to follow me, do not follow me. " (with Chinese translation into Portuguese)

This is Donguismo !!!!

The delusion reveals itself, by its stubborn refusal to hear the Word of God. Words are for promoting the marketing, not for correcting the marketer! No outside correction must be allowed to alter the vision (read: delusion) of the Apostle and Promulgator of the Great Plan to Spread the Truth (i.e. sell books).

That the so-called Apostle has training centers across the globe, and willing acolytes by the dozen or hundreds or even thousands, doesn't diminish the level of delusion; if anything it exacerbates it. And because the edifice is built on a positive feedback loop, with no chance of "negative" correction, the scheme swells to impressive proportions before it eventually deflates back to nothing. Because under the instruction set (more!! more!!) there's really nothing at all.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have great respect for C.S. Lewis, and I always have. That is despite what I know about his lifestyle. The thing is, as far as I am aware, his lifestyle wasn't something that interfered with what he was doing. From a public perspective, his smoking and pub visits were completely benign. I can't say that I've run into many people who have expressed much criticism towards C.S. Lewis. Maybe a LCer or two has rolled their eyes, but that's about it.

Lee on the other hand, had the tendency to make his personal problems into everyone's problems. He didn't smoke, drink or play mahjong. But his itch for business ventures, family entanglements, authoritarian ways, etc, all had a profound effect on everyone. So much of Lee's "bones and feathers" were not just things that could be ignored. I by no means think that every little defect in someone is worth making an issue out of, but there is a reasonable line that can be drawn as to what's acceptable and what's not.

So why did Lee get the free pass to nitpick and point out others faults, but his own highly visible faults that severely affected others were off limits? What a hypocrite he was!

Lee was definitely guilty of "straining gnats and swallowing camels," as were those who modeled themselves after him.

I remember a new member in our small group. He and his wife were in that new period when they were just enjoying the freshness and hadn't yet been conformed to the LCM accepted cultural model. (I always felt sorry for those delightful new people because I knew either their individual uniqueness would get stamped out or they would leave the movement disillusioned.)

Anyway, he said he was having some lunch at a Mexican restaurant and having a beer with his dinner because to him you just don't have Mexican food without beer. (I concur, by the way.) He said an LCM sister came in and greeted him, but once she saw his beer her expression changed and she couldn't take her eyes off of that beer. To her it was indicative that there was something seriously wrong with the brother.

Now, where does it say a Christian can't have a beer with his Mexican food if he wants to? Nowhere. The Bible warns against excessive drinking, but never says don't do it at all. But Lee decided the Bible standard wasn't good enough and he was going to put the screws to everything and create a movement of super-spiritual, super-proper people. And we know the rest of the story: Hypocrisy run rampant. Gnats expelled and camels embraced.

It's interesting. I recently found this passage in Ecclesiastes 7:

16 Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself? 17 Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time? 18 It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them. (NASB)

The Easy Read Version renders it this way:

16-17 So why ruin your life? Don’t be too good or too bad, and don’t be too wise or too foolish. Why should you die before your time?
18 Try to be a little of this and a little of that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

And what is the motive to mention the glaring "bones and feathers" that emerge from the Lee-led church life and teachings? You can't hide them, so you have to explain them away. And the companion argument, if you can't explain them away, is "Just ignore them", followed by a verse or two which supposedly settles the matter.

By contrast in the OT you have Ezekiel and Jeremiah (and others like Amos), and in the NT you have Paul's admonitions, some rather pointed I think, you have James and Jude and Peter's epistolary comments, and Rvelations 2 and 3.

Lastly, we ought to mention that Lee saw a lot of iniquity in Christianity, i.e. in everyone else. He just couldn't stand it when the same jaundiced eye swung round and faced his oeuvre.

If one wants to hold to the claim God sees no iniquity in Israel, don't read Malachi. Then on the other hand, it's so negative one might say "Malachi was on the wrong tree."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lee was definitely guilty of "straining gnats and swallowing camels," as were those who modeled themselves after him.

I remember a new member in our small group. He and his wife were in that new period when they were just enjoying the freshness and hadn't yet been conformed to the LCM accepted cultural model. (I always felt sorry for those delightful new people because I knew either their individual uniqueness would get stamped out or they would leave the movement disillusioned.)

I can't tell you how many new people I saw come into the LC, only to last a short time because someone decided to lay down the law on them. It was sad, but it was probably for the better. It sure beats spending years in the LC before coming to that same realization that there is something wrong.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Anyway, he said he was having some lunch at a Mexican restaurant and having a beer with his dinner because to him you just don't have Mexican food without beer. (I concur, by the way.) He said an LCM sister came in and greeted him, but once she saw his beer her expression changed and she couldn't take her eyes off of that beer. To her it was indicative that there was something seriously wrong with the brother.

Now, where does it say a Christian can't have a beer with his Mexican food if he wants to? Nowhere. The Bible warns against excessive drinking, but never says don't do it at all. But Lee decided the Bible standard wasn't good enough and he was going to put the screws to everything and create a movement of super-spiritual, super-proper people. And we know the rest of the story: Hypocrisy run rampant. Gnats expelled and camels embraced.

It's a good thing the Bible doesn't forbid beer, because I like it. It was indeed a relief to finally come to the realization that so many of the knats the LC loved to strain mean absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by Igzy

16 Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself? 17 Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time? 18 It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them. (NASB)

The Easy Read Version renders it this way:

16-17 So why ruin your life? Don’t be too good or too bad, and don’t be too wise or too foolish. Why should you die before your time?
18 Try to be a little of this and a little of that.

I think these verses offer a good standard to hold ourselves to - not being "too good" neither "too bad". It's a hard concept to grasp, coming from a background of extremes. It might even sound a bit paradoxical to LCers, however, things don't work according to their extremes.

What if the LC could stop nitpicking in the name of "perfecting", and learn to meet people where they are at? What if they could let each individual live according to his or her own standards instead of imposing WL's standards as the model to live by? Of course, that will never happen, but I think there could be a night and day difference.

It really seems that hypocrisy develops from the extreme of being "too good". If people see themselves as super-spiritual and super-proper, it is just asking for trouble. I think it becomes a matter of pride, and when a camel appears, the reaction is to swallow it. That is WL's legacy. He spent so much time nitpicking and criticizing others, but when he was put to the test, he failed miserably. I feel fairly confident that he neither saw it coming, nor was he completely clear as to where he failed and went wrong.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It really seems that hypocrisy develops from the extreme of being "too good". If people see themselves as super-spiritual and super-proper, it is just asking for trouble. I think it becomes a matter of pride, and when a camel appears, the reaction is to swallow it. That is WL's legacy.

Hypocrisy develops from placing extreme demands on others that leaders themselves could never nor would never meet themselves.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hypocrisy develops from placing extreme demands on others that leaders themselves could never nor would never meet themselves.

I'm met many a LC leader who was all too ready to place demands on others. Probably, many leaders think that is a key part of their job as leaders. To me, it was never the demands that got me upset, it was the whole idea that if someone wasn't up for the demand, that meant they weren't "perfected" enough, thus even more demands had to be placed upon that person.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm met many a LC leader who was all too ready to place demands on others. Probably, many leaders think that is a key part of their job as leaders. To me, it was never the demands that got me upset, it was the whole idea that if someone wasn't up for the demand, that meant they weren't "perfected" enough, thus even more demands had to be placed upon that person.

I eventually learned why my local elders heaped excessive demands upon me for all those years ... they were getting the same treatment from TC ... who got the same treatment from WL.

I have said many times, that to challenge young people according to their measure of life is wonderful and even necessary, schools and jobs do this every day, but there were times when I nearly collapsed under all the pressure.

Eventually, however, I saw thru all the hypocrisy.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

What if the LC could stop nitpicking in the name of "perfecting", and learn to meet people where they are at? What if they could let each individual live according to his or her own standards instead of imposing WL's standards as the model to live by? Of course, that will never happen, but I think there could be a night and day difference.

It really seems that hypocrisy develops from the extreme of being "too good". If people see themselves as super-spiritual and super-proper, it is just asking for trouble.

There was one brother in my home meeting group in the mid/late 1990's who was consistently speaking of "meeting people where they're at. No other brothers would speak in such a way or else they might get answers they have an inability to cope with. What if a brother or sister has no interest in reading "the ministry", but instead their reading is in the Word. Oh brother so and so, what have you been enjoying? Brother, I've been enjoying James, Malachi, and Proverbs.

Instead the WL/LC standards is the game grown men play. Just pretend to be super-proper by speaking the accepted phrases, focusing on all things spiritual. Anything soulish is between you and the Lord. No one else needs to know what a phony charade you might think it is. After all as long as the saints think you're a good brother, keep playing the game.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Instead the WL/LC standards is the game grown men play. Just pretend to be super-proper by speaking the accepted phrases, focusing on all things spiritual. Anything soulish is between you and the Lord. No one else needs to know what a phony charade you might think it is. After all as long as the saints think you're a good brother, keep playing the game.

Wow! Do you have any idea how much you just said?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wow! Do you have any idea how much you just said?

I'm sure there's many ways to say it.
Really, the jargon we've all heard spoken in meetings, who really speaks that way in every day life?
Play-acting pure and simple.