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Old 08-24-2019, 09:19 AM   #1
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Default YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-2QoHtRerA
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:33 AM   #2
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wow, I can relate almost everything on this! How can you know so much like the marriage issue since you left at age of 23?
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:42 AM   #3
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Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!
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Old 08-25-2019, 03:47 PM   #4
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A new video posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfOv9-6yE-U
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!
Thanks. I've subscribed to your channel.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:38 PM   #6
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Episode #3 on Abuse of Authority has been posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9scXlTXlOI&t=20s
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Old 08-27-2019, 04:22 PM   #7
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Episode #4 on the Fallacy of the Local Ground has been posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Oe6ILfi44
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:11 PM   #8
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Video #5 up. More opinions on the local ground. Thanks for listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xb-EZ0aRJU
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:29 AM   #9
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Episode #6 on the Fallacy of the Minister of the Age now posted.
I wanted to get these foundational videos up quickly. Now I'll take a break for a while. Thanks for listening!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFwdYsxg4pY
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!
Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:10 AM   #11
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Thanks for making those videos, keep them coming.....
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Old 08-31-2019, 05:59 AM   #12
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Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.
That's funny, because my voice is slightly altered on the audios.

No, I'm not him. I got the idea for starting my channel from seeing him, but I do things in a very different style.

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Thanks for making those videos, keep them coming.....
The ones I put out form the basis of my argument about the group. I am praying about how to go forward. Thanks for your support!
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Old 09-01-2019, 03:25 PM   #13
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Episode #7 up, which examines the question of whether the "the Lord's Recovery" is a cult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX-3_llIG6o
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Old 09-02-2019, 04:42 PM   #14
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Episode #8 is up, examining the Christian Research Institute's (CRI) flawed defense of the "The Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2l4B1-NnK4
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:32 AM   #15
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Episode #9 up. Message to the Lord's Recovery - Time to Grow Up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLNHLttR8E
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Old 09-05-2019, 01:01 PM   #16
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Episode #10 posted. Subject - Exposing the Siege Mentality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzhvIizk0Sg
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:41 PM   #17
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I loved the newest installment, Cal. Everything I saw is getting named. Siege Mentality indeed.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:02 AM   #18
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I loved the newest installment, Cal. Everything I saw is getting named. Siege Mentality indeed.
Thank you, byHismercy!
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:01 PM   #19
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Episode #11 posted. "Is That Really How God Does Things?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAoFgzxXZTY
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Old 09-07-2019, 01:06 PM   #20
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Episode #12 posted. On Going on Post-Lord's Recovery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAmSs1dGfMA
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:49 AM   #21
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Episode #13 posted. A Simple Way to Go On Post-Lord's Recovery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R16pRi0-aOQ
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:50 AM   #22
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Episode #14 posted. Not So Unique After All.

Turns out the "Lord's Recovery" is not as unique as it claimed. It is actually a very typical controlling, abusive group, manifesting all ten characteristics of a "cult" as specified by the Cult Education Institute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zmqxabNTNM
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:50 AM   #23
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Episode #15 posted. God Gives Us All Things to Enjoy.

Exposing the extreme and imbalanced austerity of human behavior in "the Lord's Recovery" movement and recommending a healthier approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rkggy7WeAE
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:15 AM   #24
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Episode #16 posted. The Sanctity of Autonomy

No person, group, church or ministry has the right to give you orders. Your spiritual decisions are strictly between you and God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzCL29Ji5-c
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:00 AM   #25
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Episode #17 posted. The Hypocrisy of "the Recovery"

Belief in the principle of recovery should compel "the Lord's Recovery" to understand that people might have to leave the movement for recovery to occur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEp1QIERgeM
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Cal View Post
Episode #17 posted. The Hypocrisy of "the Recovery"

Belief in the principle of recovery should compel "the Lord's Recovery" to understand that people might have to leave the movement for recovery to occur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEp1QIERgeM
Is that your voice on the vid.?
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:23 PM   #27
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Hey Cal, keep em guessing on this one...it ads to the intrigue!
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:26 PM   #28
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Is that your voice on the vid.?
No, that's Ohio.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:53 PM   #29
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Is that your voice on the vid.? -Awareness
Quote:
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No, that's Ohio.
Voice masked (altered electronically).

Well, they know now exactly who you are. They, LSM DCP body.
They will get you.

Let your voice be heard!
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Old 09-15-2019, 04:11 AM   #30
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No, that's Ohio.
Cal vs. Ohio.

The conflict never ends. Who will get quarantined this time? Stay tuned.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:33 AM   #31
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No, that's Ohio.
Now, now, ya can't fool me. I know Ohio's voice. Maybe it's a voice crying out in the wilderness.
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Old 09-15-2019, 07:21 AM   #32
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Ohio is the brains, I just supply the voice.

Or is it the other way around?
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Old 09-15-2019, 07:56 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Ohio is the brains, I just supply the voice.

Or is it the other way around?
I agree Ohio could be the brains. He's a sharp cookie. He'd add much to your youTube channel.
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:04 PM   #34
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I agree Ohio could be the brains. He's a sharp cookie. He'd add much to your youTube channel.
That's an awesome idea! Cal, how about interviews for the channel with ex LCers......current even, and such?
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:12 AM   #35
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Episode #18 posted. The LR De-personalizes God and Relationships

Examining how "the Lord's Recovery" de-personalizes God and relationships to make members emotionally dependent upon Witness Lee's ministry and the group's identity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9fMskhvMUM
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:28 AM   #36
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Episode #19 posted. Making a Mockery of Servant Leadership

Servant leadership is how God protects his people from overbearing leaders. "The Lord's Recovery" leaders run roughshod over and make a mockery of servant leadership.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7szsZw1GYI
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:32 AM   #37
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Episode #20 posted. Exposing the Abuse of Oneness

Examining how "the Lord's Recovery" hijacks the principle of unity for their own purposes, using it to control their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnai6i0SdhQ
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:16 PM   #38
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Episode #21 posted. Exposing More Abuses of Oneness

More examination of how "the Lord's Recovery" hijacks the idea of oneness to control their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEARH1LGmGQ
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:05 AM   #39
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Hey will you post it on YouTube continually? I am going to follow your channel.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:53 AM   #40
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Hey will you post it on YouTube continually? I am going to follow your channel.
Sorry, I don't know what you mean...
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:55 AM   #41
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Episode #22 posted. Exposing More Abuses of Oneness.

Noting the LC "rumor" squashing website shepherdingwords.com. And a call to speak out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51j5wtYvhpg
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:31 AM   #42
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Just started listening to your YouTube channel. Overall very good.

I do think there is one thing that might warrant a different perspective — not necessarily in the videos, but in our thinking. We constantly look back at the LC in the 60s and at least part of the 70s and think about how much certain things were so good.

And they were. But I am not sure that the LC was responsible for that. If you had your ear to the ground, so-to-speak, concerning trends in Christianity, there were many movements in the same direction. the LC was not the first inner-life group to come along. They were not the only group pushing more spiritual views of Christian practices. There were many. My family (I was in high school at the time) was enticed because it tapped into a kind of teaching that was coming from several directions around us.

That we now find more of mainstream Christianity speaking of things that they were not talking about in the 60s and 70s is not about the influence of the LC. It is about the influence of a diverse movement that had great impact on the whole. And so much of that movement was found within the churches it would eventually impact. Or by the people from those churches who also were involved in those inner-life groups.

Unlike the LC which attracted people away from others into a separate fold. The people who come to be part of the LC were people who had some desire toward where that kind of movement was going. They just got caught up in the LC's version of the movement.

But you are right that the LC has stagnated, going nowhere since that time. Why? Because the things that really made the LC were not the inner-life movement, but the specialties of their teaching. Ground. MOA. Deputy authority. God's best. The "up to date move of God." And so on. What was motivating about the early LC was the people who came seeking that inner-life. That were about unity, oneness, fellowship, etc. Things that were forefront at first. Once they were trapped in a system that convinced them they could not go, the joy began to fade. They still grind it out, but it does not look the same anymore.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:10 AM   #43
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Do you have transcripts, or is it strictly to be heard? I'm not suggesting turning it into a book format, though that might be something to consider, but putting it into a format readable by a Nook or Kindle app would be nice. It's harder to stop a YouTube video at any point and then return a day later. Close the browser and you are left either starting over or fishing for where you left off.

I realize that 15 to 30 minutes each is not particularly long, but either I need to carve it up, or put up with others complaining that I am taking too much time at any point.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:44 PM   #44
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Thanks OBW! We've talked about making transcripts. YouTube is supposed to have some kind of service to do this, and I need to look into it. Thanks for the reminder.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:45 PM   #45
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E23 - shepherdingwords.com - Deputy Authority

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" website shepherdingwords.com and its specious claims about "deputy authority."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXVlzmQue-Q
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:17 AM   #46
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E24 - shepherdingwords.com - DA, Shortcomings, MOTA

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" website shepherdingwords.com and its specious claims about "deputy authority" and other matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_aichNcM4s
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:59 AM   #47
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E25 - shepherdingwords.com - Responding to a Listener's Comments

Responding to a listener's posted comments about "deputy authority."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzwIxNiYx7Y
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Old 09-27-2019, 05:08 AM   #48
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E26 - A Better Way to Determine Spiritual Authority

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" views about determining spiritual authority and suggesting a simpler, better way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPybhGqEuoE
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:25 PM   #49
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Quote:
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E26 - A Better Way to Determine Spiritual Authority

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" views about determining spiritual authority and suggesting a simpler, better way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPybhGqEuoE
Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).

The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.

Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:56 AM   #50
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Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).

The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.

Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled
. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....
Great points, Raptor, and I would add that Moses himself made it clear that Jehovah would one day raise up a Prophet like himself. (Deut 18.15)

There is exceedingly strong and overwhelming evidence that this coming Prophet was not Joshua, David, Peter, Paul, Nee, Lee, or Blended Wee, but Jesus, and only Jesus, who built God's house. (Hebrews 3.1-6)

And btw, here is a great polemic, written from the background of a false prophet from Arabia who also claimed Moses' authority, that connects Moses and Jesus is so many ways.
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Old 09-28-2019, 10:18 AM   #51
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E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant

Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:12 PM   #52
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E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant

Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
Great clip Cal.

I saw this comment on your channel: "Cal is so right when he says that "deputy authority" according to Witness Lee is the doctrine of demons. Paul said something similar to Timothy in I Tim 4.1-3. I'm sure Timothy wondered how "forbidding to marry, and abstaining from certain foods" could be so dangerous. But they were. Church history tells us this conclusively. The popes have also claimed to be the "deputy authority," the vicar of Christ, and popes throughout history have killed more genuine Christians than the Roman empire. This doctrine of "deputy authority," might be the worst doctrine there ever was because it can so easily abused by fallen men."
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:27 AM   #53
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E28 - shepherdingwords.com - Racism or Sexism in the LR?

Looking at claims of racism and sexism in the "the Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muxiF6FvmUs
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:55 AM   #54
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E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant

Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
Thanks for doing these videos, they are clear and to the point. I hope that people in the LC will come across these and listen to them.

The shepherdingwords.com tries to downplay the purpose and intention of LC teachings like deputy authority. WL's Pasadena conference is the perfect example of the fruit of that kind of that teaching.
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:01 AM   #55
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Thanks for doing these videos, they are clear and to the point.
Thanks Freedom! I hope they are also short (enough) and living!
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Old 09-30-2019, 12:08 PM   #56
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Thanks Freedom! I hope they are also short (enough) and living!
Keeping all your YouTubes short, quick, living, and to the point?

YES!
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:30 AM   #57
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E29 - shepherdingwords.com - The Daystar Debacle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Examining the unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjxRkTmql34
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:41 AM   #58
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. . . unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.
And since it was probably never reported on tax returns (a presumption) it was also likely a little bit of a money laundering scheme.
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Old 10-01-2019, 10:32 AM   #59
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E29 - shepherdingwords.com - The Daystar Debacle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Examining the unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjxRkTmql34

Good point about the ethical issues of Daystar. After 40+ years, there really isn't anything that could be done about the legal issues anyways, so the fact that they chose to use that as their argument definitely is a big smoke screen.


That was something I noticed right away when reading the article. They completely sidestepped any of the ethical issues.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:54 AM   #60
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I heard the best line ever from Cal . . .

"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer."

.................................................. ...........

Hi Cal,

Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?

Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:52 PM   #61
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I heard the best line ever from Cal . . .

"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer."

.................................................. ...........

Hi Cal,

Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?

Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.
I've talked about it a couple of times, but not in detail. Like I said, you can't make this stuff up!
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:20 AM   #62
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E30 - shepherdingwords.com - The One Publication Edict

Examining the fact that the "the Lord's Recovery's" one publication edict proves it cannot be the "unique move of God."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAKFf7RXyk
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:30 PM   #63
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E31 - Sheep, Wolf or Sheep Dog

Summarizing and expanding on the subjects I've covered so far, and why I feel called to speak out.

I'm going to try to take break for a while. This is a good place to pause and recharge. �� ��

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMxe99uiz00
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Old 10-03-2019, 05:14 AM   #64
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Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.
Naw this is very different. I can sense this brother is speaking truth in love in these youtube videos. I listened to all of them in a few days and it cheered my heart. When I saw the videos of Texas street preacher, it is hardly accurate and he is acting like a bully, and I can't sense any anointing. If The Lord ever spoke through a member, I am certain it wouldn't be like this. (Yes we can recognize his voice). He is merely just judging another and will probably fall into judgment himself. These youtube videos by "cal", as I see it, is spiritual discernment. The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions any way to contact you brother "cal"?

I've been in fellowship with people meeting as the church and reading "the ministry" for 15 years, but the Lord has spoken to me and warned me about being proud, exclusive and falling into empty rituals. Sadly, (this is my personal belief I guess) I think many churches in the Lords recovery, even if the Lord came back, many of these brothers and sisters would still have the Lords table in their traditional way without realizing He came back. I hope I am wrong! The only pathway I see now it to practice to have brotherly love to ALL Christians, not insisting on anything, and personally living in the condition of Philadelphia. When these videos of "Cal" came out, it was like everything the Lord had spoken to me was articulated and it was great joy to me. I now meet with a few other Christian groups, but that isn't easy as well. In the Lords recovery I felt it was one extreme, reading ministry too much, but in the Christian groups i found another extreme, meeting where it all becomes a social arena instead of getting into the Word together. Being a Christians isn't too easy, I confess 😳 anyway thank you so much for the videos and please keep them coming. I hope also many that are currently in the Lords Recovery can listen to them and challenge themselves and search their heart in light of these videos. As soon as a group thinks it is above others there should be a red flag.
Sincerely from a seeking brother in Europe
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:11 AM   #65
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The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions any way to contact you brother "Cal"?
SeekeroftheFullTruth, Thanks for your post! I have a wonderful solution to your problem. Simply send an Email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership for the forum (I have reserved "SeekeroftheFullTruth" for you to have for your UserName). We will shoot you back a temporary password and then you can communicate with Cal and others on the open forum, or through the Private Messaging system.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Your brother who is unto Him

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Old 10-03-2019, 08:42 AM   #66
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Default Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church

Hi SeekeroftheFullTruth,

It makes me happy to know you've gotten some good from my videos.

As for my identity, I've always worked under a pseudonym on this forum, as most of us have, and it just seemed natural to continue that way. I prefer to protect my privacy as well as my family and to keep my options open. I've noticed though with Facebook now, many are speaking out about the LR under their real names, which is great. It's a new generation!

But UntoHim is right, if you get an LCD login, we can communicate with the personal messaging system here.

Thanks again for your kind words!

Just a note that I am going to try to take some time off and figure out which direction to take things going forward.

Blessings,

Cal
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:59 PM   #67
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E32 - It's Easier to Control Others When You're a Morally Exempt God-man - "The Lord's Recovery"

Showing how "the Lord's Recovery" leaders blur right and wrong to enable their controlling of their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:09 PM   #68
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E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant

Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
You mentioned in this YouTube presentation that Witness Lee after a Thanksgiving Conference in 1988 held an elders’ meeting on November 27, 1988, in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel.

If you go to the Thread Bill Mallon’s Passing you will see a post by Thankful Jane dated 10-5-2019 in which she shares:
Some here may be interested in the link below that contains many handwritten notes by Bill Mallon made during two periods of Local Church "rebellions" (1977-78 and 1987-1992).

These notes are collaborative historical evidence that will aid in confirming what is true about these two so-called "rebellions." (Many of today's church-kids were born around the time Bill was making these notes.) His notes have not been made public before now. Over the years, the Living Stream Ministry leadership has rewritten history to support their own narrative (their cover-up) of the truth about things that happened during these so-called rebellions.

Out of respect for Bill, before reading any of his notes please read first all of the material in the topic/thread that begins with “Bill’s Request: ...” (It is also found at the link below.)

Bill Mallon Speaks Posthumously


When you click the above link and look in book VIII of Bill Mallon’s notes (11-23-88 to 1-4-89), specifically photocopies DSC03077 to DSC03080, you can read in real time what Bill was told by John Ingalls after this elders’ meeting. John Ingalls tells Bill that “W.L. is hardened, and almost wild, raving, vindicating himself.”
Please note the Topic entitled “Names of Leaders that Correspond to Initials Used in Bill’s Notes” for assistance with the abbreviations.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:35 AM   #69
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E30 - shepherdingwords.com - The One Publication Edict

Examining the fact that the "the Lord's Recovery's" one publication edict proves it cannot be the "unique move of God."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAKFf7RXyk
You mention John So in this YouTube message and the one-publication edict.

I would refer those who are interested to go to Book III of Bill Mallon’s notes (see my post #68 for details.)

Specifically note photocopy DSC02543 In a conversation with John Ingalls on 1-7-88 in which J. I. says John So tells about Germany, that the saints there know “Mt 16 is the foundation of the church, that it was not given by W. L. or W. N., but the Father. No new way for Ecclesiastes states there is nothing new under the sun. He said he is happy they are far away, that Germans are not gullible.”

Also DSC02589-2590 “Don Rutledge urged me to call John So.” 3-2-88
“P. L. was on John So’s case for 2 years. 5 bros went to Germany to bring printing under Str control and to get them to submit to P. L. But John So couldn’t for conscience sake tho he gave them the liberty. 5 bros got daily instruct from P. L. Then Germany was cut off from Liv Str. Germany sent 4,000 sheets camera ready to L. Str but not printed… John So and Germany in old way. Str set up office in Eng and tried to cut off Germany, cause prob among Eng churches. Also now bros in Switz have permission to print anything but exclu Germany.”
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:56 AM   #70
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This corresponds with John So's own testimony given to the saints in Manila. That is also worth reading.

It is beyond pathetic what Philip Lee did to the saints from Stuttgart in retaliation to John So resisting PL's domination.

Reading what Witness Lee allowed his sons to do to the saints caused me to lose all respect for him.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:17 AM   #71
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E32 - It's Easier to Control Others When You're a Morally Exempt God-man - "The Lord's Recovery"

Showing how "the Lord's Recovery" leaders blur right and wrong to enable their controlling of their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY
When was the second RK clip recorded? Is that something recent?
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:14 AM   #72
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E33 - A Spoken History of the Lord's Recovery (1960-1997)

A spoken version of Steve Isitt's "A History of the Lord's Recovery in the US." This history reveals little known surreptitious events in the movement from 1960 to 1997.

https://youtu.be/VpkP6jOZXXI

Transcript here: https://tinyurl.com/y6qx6spa
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Old 10-11-2019, 02:37 PM   #73
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I listen to these videos every day, and then I start all over again. I found this to be good antidote, and it helps me to wash away all the deception of the whole "ministry spirit" that is in LR and has crept into my heart without me noticing it. Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."

I heard Ron Kangas had said: Steve Issit is a man of death. And from the little I heard, he seemed to mock John Ingalls for following in the conscience, (I am sorry if I misunderstood this)
Ron Kangas will reply to the King: Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
King Jesus will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
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Old 10-12-2019, 04:46 PM   #74
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E34 - shepherdingwords.com - The Significance of Lily Hsu's Book

Responding to shepherdingwords.com's weak accusations about Lily Hsu's book "My Unforgettable Memories," whose contents cast much doubt on the claims and legacies of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

https://youtu.be/V8bV9uOnW2Q
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Old 10-13-2019, 06:14 AM   #75
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Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."
googlelight, thanks for sharing this testimony.

This is exactly how LSM divides the body of Christ on a personal level.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:15 PM   #76
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E35 - Thoughts on Witness Lee's Trinity

Considering Witness Lee's view of the Trinity, and proposing a better view.

https://youtu.be/DLAQh3_8x3E
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:33 PM   #77
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E35 - Thoughts on Witness Lee's Trinity

Considering Witness Lee's view of the Trinity, and proposing a better view.

https://youtu.be/DLAQh3_8x3E
That was deep Cal Ive had 8 years+ of university, and I am still struggling to comprehend what you are saying :scrat chhead:
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:02 PM   #78
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That was deep Cal Ive had 8 years+ of university, and I am still struggling to comprehend what you are saying :scrat chhead:
lol

Then just try reading Jonathan Edward's essay. At least I tried to make it simple.

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...20the%20Tr.pdf
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:24 PM   #79
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Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.

I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.

The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."

I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.
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Old 10-16-2019, 02:53 PM   #80
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Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.

I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.

The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."

I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.
Thank you Cal! I am trying to figure out your age (I guess I am just humanly curious). Contentwise, it seems like you have lived together with Methuselah, becoming 969. But Given you started to fellowship with LR at around 18+ in the 70s, it seems reasonable that you are between 60 and 70. I dont need an answer. My guess would be 64.

I thank you for your service to the Body of Christ. May your videos enlighten all. It is evident that you are not against anyone, but simply speaking the truth in love. For those in the bubble, you are probably now the enemy. I think there will be a time in near future 1 - 5 - 10 years, the Lord will descent to the ministry city, and the ministry tower man has built, and if it pleases Him, he will say: "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other" Genesis 11:7. I may stand corrected, but if this nevertheless happens, I think your videos Cal will help so many confused Christians, hopefully as much as it has helped me.
Today I have found more healthy Christians, where there is the liberty of the Spirit. The meetings are not perfect, and there are many things I am not used to, but I tell you, when I leave that group of Christian, I sense I am filled with love toward them, they hardly do anything right, but they love the Lord in a simple way. Again, thank you for your service Cal. Dont stop!
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:20 PM   #81
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Thanks, googlelight. You're support means a lot. I'm glad to be able to do something to help people. As to my age, let's just say (1) I feel younger than I am and (2) you are a sharp cookie.
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Old 10-16-2019, 06:00 PM   #82
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hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ.
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age.
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:07 PM   #83
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Hello Cal,
I want to respond to your alternative proposition of the inner workings of the trinity. E35

I appreciate all the work and time you are putting into your youtube channel. What you have presented on the trinity certainly does address what lacks in WL’s assessment of who the trinity is. Weather true or not I don’t have enough insight to tell, but it seems far safer than The LC teaching on the trinity. I share your concerns about the damage it, along with much else that comes with the package of the LC, does to the people ensnared in it. I think it takes courage as well as work and time to deliver the messages on your channel.

I find Cal’s posts in themselves demonstrate what the local church lacks….rational, logical, sensible thought processing with a good dose of common sense. Its hard to argue against those and sound plausible, really.

We all rely on, and trust in, a legal system that bases its evaluations on the same principles. Where would our justice system be without them? And therefore our society? Stepping away from those principles is dangerous, in my view. It leads to superstition, and superstition is based in fear. It reverts to an uncivilised way of functioning, actually. A way that western civilisation broke out of as it developed the rule of law, human rights, scientific methodology, democracy etc. all these things are only possible with rational and logical thinking, something WL clearly had no appreciation or understanding of in its history or significance. He didn’t really understand the west, it’s clear. And he clashed against it when he turned against his American followers.

I hope I haven’t rambled.

Cal’s posts demonstrate good sound thinking as well as good conclusions. It’s clear he has given it all deep thought over a long period of time. It’s also noteworthy to me that he is not showing partiality. E28, ‘racism or sexism’ is one example amongst others, where he holds back and is not interested in blanket accusations beyond what he is certain of from his experience. (Those who have such experience can voice those grievances on this forum, and elsewhere, without clashing with him). This is what integrity does. An important detail to be respectful of too.

I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!
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Old 10-17-2019, 06:56 AM   #84
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hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ.
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age.
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition.
Is your point that you feel I've lifted myself up? If so, can you tell me why you feel that way? When did I say I've matured enough? If I said something like that you probably took it in a way I didn't mean. I certainly have more maturing to do.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:04 AM   #85
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I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!
I very much appreciate the support. And what you say I hope is true of me.

As 'least' said, I'm just one small potato. I don't have all the answers, I just have my view and feel led to make these videos at this time. I have no idea how long I will feel led to continue, but I hope people know that I'm not trying to make a name for myself or anything like that. I'm just trying to use the gifts and skills the Lord has given me for the good of his kingdom.

Not everything I say is going to agree with everyone. Realize that I'm not trying to define what should be true for everyone, but rather simply my own beliefs and views.

I'm not anything of any age.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:58 AM   #86
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Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.
I agree. From my memory, the stress was on individual performance. "Eating Jesus is the way", "turn to your spirit", "let's all gain Christ", and similar phrases, got the individual to focus on their own "experience and enjoyment", versus the experiences of Jesus Christ adjudicated by his relationship with the Father.

The experience of Jesus, on earth, v/v the Father in Heaven is amply documented, and I've covered it in such detail that many readers will be bored to tears, so I'll keep it short. "He (the Father) rescued me (the Son) because He delighted in me" in Psalm 18, for instance clearly was corroborated by NT statements that the Father delighted in the Son. We hardly need to cite them, but here's a slow-pitch softball: "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear him", e.g., Matthew 3:17; 2 Pet 1:17; cf Matt 17:5; 12:18.

When you see it, it's soooo obvious what's happening in the text: the Son loves the Father and obeys, the Father delights in the Son and raises him from the dead and gives him glory, and a kingdom that never ends. There's a relationship here that's constantly implied and often stated quite plainly, and is seen consistently in the doings of both parties.

Now, in covering Psalm 18, for instance, either WL would say, "No, God didn't delight in David - David was a sinner", or he'd say, "This is the NT believer enjoying grace on the proper church ground." But in the middle there's a big hole, where the actual person Jesus Christ lived - yes, in "coinherence" (or consubstantiation or what silly physics-level-term we use) - with the Father and by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry to rant but it's been a bit of a peeve - we arguably got short-changed, and the effect's been huge. Instead of focusing on Jesus the Christ as the Way to the Father, we'd focus on self-performance, which was whatever the MOTA wanted us to do, usually for 'ministry' benefit. Then the manipulative demands would begin - look at any HWMR outline, and count how many "we need to" and "we should" and "we must" are embedded in the text. It's rife with them. All WL's unmet needs got placed on the believer, with "making it" and "overcoming" and so forth connected with local church activities and performances. It became about one's relationship to ministry demands, with a distant and abstract "processed God" receding over the conceptual horizon.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:59 AM   #87
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E36 - The Basic Problem

Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:13 PM   #88
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E36 - The Basic Problem

Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68
Just plain excellent!
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:55 PM   #89
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Just plain excellent!
Thanks. God is so good!
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Old 10-17-2019, 02:24 PM   #90
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E36 - The Basic Problem

Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68
"There is a lack of genuine care for people simply as people, there is a lack of love for people as people"

Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.

God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.

Psalm 118:5-6 “Out of my distress I called on the Lord; the Lord answered me and set me free. The Lord is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?”
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:53 PM   #91
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Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.

God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.
I'm so glad you've been helped! Thank you.

Yes Lord! Bless the folks on this forum, on Facebook and all those who have joined together to help each other!
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:59 PM   #92
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As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.

When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.

I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.

(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)

Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 AM   #93
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As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.

When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.

I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.

(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)

Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.
Very well said. The LR is all about "accomplishing God's purpose," and people are just means to that end, and thus expendable in the hands of the "co-workers" in that effort. People are valuable only to the extent they further the cause, otherwise they are just a problem.

But such an attitude make God's love hollow. In truth, the only thing that could have motivated Jesus to suffer and die on the cross the way he did was pure love--love both for the Father and for us. He endured it all for us, each one of us. That's love.
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Old Yesterday, 07:24 AM   #94
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When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.
Sorry if I'm in left field on this thread. I shy away from social media, even youTube channels. Sorry Cal.

But Lee's economy was a failure over and over again. Well until he realized he could be successful pushing his books on the saints. That's why he kept Philip.

It reminds me of AmWay, that realized the real money was in selling the training tapes. LSM is still an ongoing vital business ... doing the same thing.

It should be noted, that it's not the church I pictured that Jesus promised to build. In fact, it's not a church by any definition ... but it's the backbone of Lee's LC movement ; "Gods'" Economy.
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