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Old 10-06-2019, 01:14 AM   #1
googlelight
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Default The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

Something I considered:

Let`s say that the blended brothers in LR is truly Gods move on earth today. Since they are constituted and trained by the minister of the age and have matured in life in ways we cannot fathom, they now are the only ones that are equipped by the Lord to receive the newest light from the Lord. Well, even if this was true, that they are today like Noah + 8 souls... what about these verses?
Quote:
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
It seems to me, that the Father is pleased to also reveal things to those who are nothing. And if that is the case, then the Lords Recovery and the blended brothers also need the rest of the Christians. I just thought about this verse

Any input about this?
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: the pros vs "the little children" in Matthew 11

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Originally Posted by googlelight View Post
Something I considered:
Let`s say that the blended brothers in LR is truly Gods move on earth today.
Stop me in my tracks!!! Do you know how funny that sounds?!?

When I first heard of The Blended Brothers I rolled on the floor busting a gut. The Blended Brothers? What the you-know-what is that?, I thought. Who's the minister of the age now?, I continued wondering? How could anyone buy into that?

Are the Blended's dissected Lee? Like dissecting jelly fish into pieces, sort of? Are they just the one many headed minister of the age now?

Funny stuff. That takes blind faith to follow. And that's not funny.

As to the "God's Move" thing? What? Really? God's move is the Blended Brothers?

Funny God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by googlelight - Like that handle, btw
Since they are constituted and trained by the minister of the age and have matured in life in ways we cannot fathom, they now are the only ones that are equipped by the Lord to receive the newest light from the Lord. Well, even if this was true, that they are today like Noah + 8 souls...
How does the new light thing work? Does the new light enter the brains of all the Blended's at the same time? Or does the Lord deliver the new light to one of them ... and they get together and cast lots on it? Or do they search the scripture, I mean all of Lee's writings, to dig up new light? Do they have the new high peaks light/material? Or are they old and stale ... Lee hashed over ... and out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by googlelight
what about these verses? 25 At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Well I knew Kangas to be wise and prudent/learned ... at least he liked to appear that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by googlelight
It seems to me, that the Father is pleased to also reveal things to those who are nothing.
Now you've got it. Ask yourself, do you need the Blended Brothers? Do you need secondhand light?

But then you might not be please with what the Father is revealing so in that case get different light from the Blended's ... and become Leebots.
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Old 10-06-2019, 05:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

The Hebrews had two main foci - one was humanity's failure, and the other was God's beneficence. God's goodness, patience, kindness, long-suffering, his outstretched arm, power, wisdom, holiness and blessings were incomparable, and more than enough to make up for our many lacks. His ability to make good on his promises outstrip our inability to see, to lay hold, to appreciate.

Now, how does this relate to Jesus and his teachings? Those who are "something" in the world, because of sin, are actually "nothing" in the kingdom, and those who are least in the world become great in the kingdom. Any who elevate themselves above others, and take pride of place here on earth, are automatically demoting themselves in the kingdom. Conversely, those who lower themselves, and take the least place, can be positioned for blessing. (I could quote 15 or 20 verses in Jesus' teachings covering the above points. They are endemic to his message).

This is especially true in learning. Those who seem to be learned, who are wise, who have spiritual experiences, are in danger of getting blocked from learning. Those who know nothing/see nothing/have nothing are well-positioned for blessing. That's just the way it is - as soon as you think you have something you have nothing. Because of sin, no "experience" is trustworthy. Only at the Bema, when the Master says, "Come up further" can one move up in safety. Until then, any position is probably ruinous.

My theology today is that God raised Jesus on the third day, and gave him glory. Don't see how I can be Christian otherwise. But beyond that, I can hold no "truth". Maybe, "Love one another", but even that... how does one love? Lip service? Do I really know what love means?

---

Let me give an example. There are a lot of folks out there explaining things. Most of it is, frankly, rubbish. But if you sort around, someone may just blow your mind. The other day, I was reading about "faithfulness" - and it was presented quite different from "faith" a la Martin Luther - you know, as opposed to "works".

In the context of Hebrew Scripture, to be a "faithful" person, or one having faith, meant continual obedience to instruction. So the Hebrews had to be constantly obedient to God's command. You couldn't obey some, and ignore others. You couldn't keep the commands on Monday and Tuesday, then take Wednesday off. It was all in, at all times. THAT was what "faith" meant, in action. To have faith without works was nothing - don't be passive hearers of the word, but be doers of the word. It was about what you continually do. It is your life, your living, in toto, 24/7/365.

Now here's this guy Jesus being presented in the NT. He was the personification of the preceding paragraph. He was THE OBEDIENT JEW, and as such he was and is the King of Israel, the King of the Jews. He alone was the truly righteous one. "I always do the Father's will". Not sometimes - always. And now we recognise who he is, and what he is, and surrender. He's the King. As the Obedient One he's the Lawgiver, the New Moses. And as he obeyed the Father, we must obey him. That's our faith: to believe, to confess, and to obey. To hear, and to follow.

And I learned that from one who knew of "faith" in Hebrew language in the OT and was able to transpose it on Paul's writings on "faith" in the NT, e.g., Romans. So it was good, for me... food for thought. Now "faith" as a concept took on a deeper root within.

---

Ironically, LSM has always touted Watchman Nee for taking just this approach - he availed himself of thousands of sources of Christian learning. Witness Lee said that Nee had a library of 3,000 Christian books. How many different views did he open to? How many unique and disparate points of view, by quite different authors? Shouldn't we all do the same? Why limit ourselves to only one source? What do you think Nee's spiritual output would have been, with just one source of interpretive guidance, one source of spiritual light?
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:48 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

[QUOTE=aron;89492]The Hebrews had two main foci - one was humanity's failure, and the other was God's beneficence. God's goodness, patience, kindness, long-suffering, his outstretched arm, power, wisdom, holiness and blessings were incomparable, and more than enough to make up for our many lacks. His ability to make good on his promises outstrip our inability to see, to lay hold, to appreciate.

"Now, how does this relate to Jesus and his teachings? Those who are "something" in the world, because of sin, are actually "nothing" in the kingdom, and those who are least in the world become great in the kingdom. Any who elevate themselves above others, and take pride of place here on earth, are automatically demoting themselves in the kingdom. Conversely, those who lower themselves, and take the least place, can be positioned for blessing. (I could quote 15 or 20 verses in Jesus' teachings covering the above points. They are endemic to his message)."

"This is especially true in learning. Those who seem to be learned, who are wise, who have spiritual experiences, are in danger of getting blocked from learning. Those who know nothing/see nothing/have nothing are well-positioned for blessing. That's just the way it is - as soon as you think you have something you have nothing. Because of sin, no "experience" is trustworthy. Only at the Bema, when the Master says, "Come up further" can one move up in safety. Until then, any position is probably ruinous."

Very good points brother! Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heavens (Matt 5:23).

"My theology today is that God raised Jesus on the third day, and gave him glory. Don't see how I can be Christian otherwise. But beyond that, I can hold no "truth". Maybe, "Love one another", but even that... how does one love? Lip service? Do I really know what love means?"
Though many circumstances I have also been "simplified" like this, if I may use that word. I studied psychology for 5+ years, and was very interested in Spirit - Soul - Body, since spirit is kinda "erased" in the field, or atleast is not the same as the Bible teaches. Now, years later, having gained a lot of knowledge on this studying all the verses in NT and OT, if someone ask me, I dont have much to say about the topic, I dont really understand or know what it truly is. If I did, my life and living would probably look more like Pauls, but far from it I may have come to the conclusion (atleast in this point in life), no truth as any value apart from Him.

---

Let me give an example. There are a lot of folks out there explaining things. Most of it is, frankly, rubbish. But if you sort around, someone may just blow your mind. The other day, I was reading about "faithfulness" - and it was presented quite different from "faith" a la Martin Luther - you know, as opposed to "works".

In the context of Hebrew Scripture, to be a "faithful" person, or one having faith, meant continual obedience to instruction. So the Hebrews had to be constantly obedient to God's command. You couldn't obey some, and ignore others. You couldn't keep the commands on Monday and Tuesday, then take Wednesday off. It was all in, at all times. THAT was what "faith" meant, in action. To have faith without works was nothing - don't be passive hearers of the word, but be doers of the word. It was about what you continually do. It is your life, your living, in toto, 24/7/365.

Now here's this guy Jesus being presented in the NT. He was the personification of the preceding paragraph. He was THE OBEDIENT JEW, and as such he was and is the King of Israel, the King of the Jews. He alone was the truly righteous one. "I always do the Father's will". Not sometimes - always. And now we recognise who he is, and what he is, and surrender. He's the King. As the Obedient One he's the Lawgiver, the New Moses. And as he obeyed the Father, we must obey him. That's our faith: to believe, to confess, and to obey. To hear, and to follow.

And I learned that from one who knew of "faith" in Hebrew language in the OT and was able to transpose it on Paul's writings on "faith" in the NT, e.g., Romans. So it was good, for me... food for thought. Now "faith" as a concept took on a deeper root within.

I can appreciate this very much. I sense you are on to something... As we personally recognize who is He, and what he is, we surrender. Isnt this also the experience of that perfect and upright man Job, once He recognized who and what God is, said:
"My ears had heard of you,
but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42).
The personal meeting with the living God, that makes everything else in life irrelevant for a moment

"Ironically, LSM has always touted Watchman Nee for taking just this approach - he availed himself of thousands of sources of Christian learning. Witness Lee said that Nee had a library of 3,000 Christian books. How many different views did he open to? How many unique and disparate points of view, by quite different authors? Shouldn't we all do the same? Why limit ourselves to only one source? What do you think Nee's spiritual output would have been, with just one source of interpretive guidance, one source of spiritual light?"
I agree! All my 16 years in LR, I always continued reading from other sources
like F.A.Assisi, Spurgeon, Darby, D.L. Moody, J.P. Lewis, H. Taylor, and Ravi Zacharias, John Lennox and countless others, and even though we were always encouraged to specifically focus on reading "the ministry"/witness lee, I always had inner peace with reading from many other sources. I remember so many meetings, where I actually shared some "pearls" from Darby or from Spurgeon, and many people appreciated and enjoyed it, but it was when I didnt tell the source. Once I told it wasnt life-study or from W.Lee, there were more scepticism. Today I think it has become more clear to me, that the "oneness" isnt the one I have been presented in the LR. The Lord has even manifested this several times. I have been visiting seeking Christians, in their homes, who "belong" to "denominations," but in our fellowship, we have truly touched the heavenlies with joy, peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. In this meetings I never had any agenda to "gain" someone, or to promote Witness Lee or LR, rather I just forgot about all of this, and simply had fellowship with His children, and trusted His promised where two or three are gathered in His name, there He will be in our midst. After this has been manifested time and time again, to me it seems this "oneness" I learned about in LR is at best flawed, and in worst case, false and deceiving. I have always been puzzled how this can be, that such brother can actually come to this point. But with all "spiritual giants" in Church History, it seems this has happened again and again, so this isnt unique for LR

As far as I know even J.N Darby became very exclusive in the end. But this is also a mystery to me considering his condition before releasing Synopsis of the Bible. How pure, humble and loving his attitude was at this time. Let me quote: "Firstly, the immense responsibility, which, when it is a question of the Word of God, attaches to the one who would give guidance to the thoughts of Christians; and however modestly it might be, to present ideas as being the intention of the Spirit of God. How grave an error to wrongly direct the dear children of God in the understanding of His thoughts and of His will; or to present as the purpose of His precious communications, that which may not be it!"

This makes me realize, in the end, you can never trust man. In the final analysis, you can only put your full trust in God... Otherwise you will probably be led astray, at some point
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

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Now here's this guy Jesus being presented in the NT. He was the personification of the preceding paragraph. He was THE OBEDIENT JEW, and as such he was and is the King of Israel, the King of the Jews. He alone was the truly righteous one. "I always do the Father's will". Not sometimes - always. And now we recognise who he is, and what he is, and surrender. He's the King. As the Obedient One he's the Lawgiver, the New Moses. And as he obeyed the Father, we must obey him. That's our faith: to believe, to confess, and to obey. To hear, and to follow.

---

Ironically, LSM has always touted Watchman Nee for taking just this approach -
he availed himself of thousands of sources of Christian learning. Witness Lee said that Nee had a library of 3,000 Christian books. How many different views did he open to? How many unique and disparate points of view, by quite different authors? Shouldn't we all do the same? Why limit ourselves to only one source? What do you think Nee's spiritual output would have been, with just one source of interpretive guidance, one source of spiritual light?
aron, reading this post of yours a couple times, I saw a far more sinister irony in the Recovery. Consider the continual message and taglines we were continually fed for decades on why the Recovery was unique and exceptional.

First, the gospel of poor, poor degraded Christianity. It was all about this guy Jesus in the N.T. whom God raised from the dead. He was a man who did the Father's will. He was born of a virgin. He was crucified. He saved us from sin. God raised Him up and exalted Him high above all. We were told this was the "Low Gospel." It merely provided us with hopelessly divided Christianity.

Nee and Lee, however, were special, recovering the church back to God's Economy. They were MOTA's were uniquely "raised up" by God on "virgin" soil. As such God now had genuine "Deputies" on earth to "act" on His behalf, speaking as His oracle. We were told that they "made mistakes," yet none of these were ever acknowledged. Instead we heard how every other N.T. minister had failed, including Peter and Paul. Nee and Lee, however, were scandal-free, so-called, and pure as the driven snow.

Jesus might have saved us from our sins, but Nee and Lee gave us the church, the Recovered church. They gave us the body of Christ. They gave us god-man living for the building up. They taught us how to meet, what to think, how to talk, how to walk, how to live our lives. They gave us the "High Gospel."

Pretty convincing, eh?
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:18 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

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I've always been puzzled how this can be, that such brother can actually come to this point. But with all "spiritual giants" in Church History, it seems this has happened again and again, so this isn't unique for LR.
My thesis of late has been that the Lord knows who are ten-talented and who are one-talented. Our job is simply to do our best. Whatever we "are" and "will be" is up to God - both the choosing, the willing and the working. Our job is merely to do our best, repent when we fail (often, it sometimes seems), and forgive others who also fail. Jesus prayed, "Forgive us our trespasses" - so we his disciples trespass, else why should we pray this? Of course we don't say, "Let us sin that grace may abound" but even in our efforts to obey we fail.

Contrast that to the so-called "spiritual giants" that you reference. To me such terminology presumes pride of place which can only come from God's hand. Given the fallen human condition, nobody should say, "I have laid hold", or pretend someone else has (Nee, Lee, Darby, Luther etc) so that they as the Chief Promoter thence assume the "mantle". Fancy that - the Top Sycophant becomes the New Top Dog. This is the "way of the gentiles". It is clearly spelled out by Jesus in the gospels. And it doesn't matter if it's a British gentile hierarchy, a Zulu gentile one, a Xhosa gentile one, or a Chinese gentile one. It's still the way of the gentiles.

To me this is Christianity 101. They should teach new converts this lesson the first few weeks. Otherwise they may fall into the trap that Nee, Lee, Darby and others seem to get snared by. Their very success became their failure, their great light became their darkness.

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As far as I know even J.N Darby became very exclusive in the end. But this is also a mystery to me considering his condition before releasing Synopsis of the Bible. How pure, humble and loving his attitude was at this time.
Anyone who trusts in their experiences is in danger. Only at the Bema, when the Master of the Feast says, "Come, sit up higher", can you move without fear. Until then, no.

When we see this, it preserves us from being stumbled by our success. And it preserves us from being snared by self-styled "super apostles". We've had discussions on this forum about others, and the similarities with what we've seen in the LC system. Think of David Koresh, today's New Apostolic Reformation, Joseph Smith (the 'Mormon Prophet'), Haile Selassie and so many others. Anyone who thinks they're something, or have something, in this age, it should be a great big red flag to others of the faith.

The reason Jesus has the Name above every name is because God raised him from the dead and gave him glory and rule and power and authority and a kingdom which never shall end. Who else can claim such? No one. Look at all the others whom I listed. Their graves are with us to this day, cf Acts 2:29.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:03 AM   #7
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We've had discussions on this forum about others, and the similarities with what we've seen in the LC system. Think of David Koresh, today's New Apostolic Reformation, Joseph Smith (the 'Mormon Prophet'), Haile Selassie and so many others. Anyone who thinks they're something, or have something, in this age, it should be a great big red flag to others of the faith.
But we're the ones that lift them up above all others. Lee would have been nothing without his following proving to him that God was working thru him.

Haile Selassie is an example. He had no idea he was The Messiah. He got off the plane in Jamaica and didn't understand what he had been made into.

It's we the followers that make them great. Luther was proven great by how many joined his following ; even city-states, opposing papal dominance.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

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...... in the end, you can never trust man. In the final analysis, you can only put your full trust in God... Otherwise you will probably be led astray, at some point
Last week Proverbs 29:25 spoke to me.. I think it is very appropriate to paste it here:
The fear of man brings a snare:
but whosoever puts his trust in the Lord shall be safe.


The New Living Translation puts it like this:
Fearing people is a dangerous trap,
but trusting the Lord means safety.


Lee and the blendeds instilled so much fear in the sheeple that they have trusted Lee more than in their Savior, the Lord Jesus thus finding it very difficult to find safety in the LORD HIMSELF.
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:22 PM   #9
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Stop me in my tracks!!! Do you know how funny that sounds?!?

When I first heard of The Blended Brothers I rolled on the floor busting a gut. The Blended Brothers? What the you-know-what is that?, I thought. Who's the minister of the age now?, I continued wondering? How could anyone buy into that?

Are the Blended's dissected Lee? Like dissecting jelly fish into pieces, sort of? Are they just the one many headed minister of the age now?

Funny stuff. That takes blind faith to follow. And that's not funny.

As to the "God's Move" thing? What? Really? God's move is the Blended Brothers?

Funny God.


How does the new light thing work? Does the new light enter the brains of all the Blended's at the same time? Or does the Lord deliver the new light to one of them ... and they get together and cast lots on it? Or do they search the scripture, I mean all of Lee's writings, to dig up new light? Do they have the new high peaks light/material? Or are they old and stale ... Lee hashed over ... and out?


Well I knew Kangas to be wise and prudent/learned ... at least he liked to appear that way.


Now you've got it. Ask yourself, do you need the Blended Brothers? Do you need secondhand light?

But then you might not be please with what the Father is revealing so in that case get different light from the Blended's ... and become Leebots.
High peaks light/ material? Old and stale Lee hashed over?

Hey, I liked a term I found somewhere on here; ''refried Lee!''
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:59 PM   #10
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High peaks light/ material? Old and stale Lee hashed over?

Hey, I liked a term I found somewhere on here; ''refried Lee!''
The Blended's are used Lee salesmen.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

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Let`s say that the blended brothers in LR is truly Gods move on earth today. Since they are constituted and trained by the minister of the age and have matured in life in ways we cannot fathom, they now are the only ones that are equipped by the Lord to receive the newest light from the Lord. Well, even if this was true, that they are today like Noah + 8 souls... what about Matthew 11:25?

It seems to me, that the Father is pleased to also reveal things to those who are nothing. And if that is the case, then the Lords Recovery and the blended brothers also need the rest of the Christians.

Matthew 11:25 --At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children"
A related question - if Watchman Nee availed himself of some 3,000 "Christian classics" per the Lee biography, then were there some 30 (+/-) sequential "spiritual giants", each with the "vision of the age" penning some 100 works (+/-), each building on the previous one? No, according to Lee: rather WN picked the good bits from each one* and fashioned his unique message.

Then why don't we each also pick the good bits from Nee, and others, and likewise fashion our own?

Oh, no! Can't do that! You see, the age turned, and now it is one-stop shopping. In fact, if one should try to cobble together a revelation from disparate sources whole meeting in the LC, one would be deemed a rebel, ambitious, divisive, and so forth.

Only Nee could do this. The rest can't. Why? Only he possessed such capacity, apparently. If anyone else tried it would be presumptuous and bring ruin. You see, Nee's conclusions were truth and divine light, whilst yours & mine are mere opinions and lead to stumbling in the flock. Don't think, because someone else did your thinking for you. "Get out of your mind, brother! Only Watchman Nee could go there, and survive the experience."

(*including women like Penn-Lewis, McDonough, and Guyon, who supposedly aren't fit to teach.)
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

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A related question - if Watchman Nee availed himself of some 3,000 "Christian classics" per the Lee biography, then were there some 30 (+/-) sequential "spiritual giants", each with the "vision of the age" penning some 100 works (+/-), each building on the previous one? No, according to Lee: rather WN picked the good bits from each one* and fashioned his unique message.

Then why don't we each also pick the good bits from Nee, and others, and likewise fashion our own?

Oh, no! Can't do that! You see, the age turned, and now it is one-stop shopping. In fact, if one should try to cobble together a revelation from disparate sources whole meeting in the LC, one would be deemed a rebel, ambitious, divisive.
The Blendeds have strictly warned all the LC saints that they can NOT pick and choose which parts of the ministry they prefer.

"It's all or nothing!" We were told.

I said, "OK, have it your way."
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:48 PM   #13
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A related question - if Watchman Nee availed himself of some 3,000 "Christian classics" per the Lee biography, then were there some 30 (+/-) sequential "spiritual giants", each with the "vision of the age" penning some 100 works (+/-), each building on the previous one? No, according to Lee: rather WN picked the good bits from each one* and fashioned his unique message.
And Lee said Nee had a photographic memory. That he could read a chemistry book in one night, and than the next day you could open the book to a random page, and ask, for example : "What's on page 168," and Nee could read it off.

I never really bought into that. Lee was creating a Nee legend, making Nee great, and a spiritual/leader superman -- prolly to cover for Nee's private lascivious life. Plus, Nee had to be great, cuz Lee was riding on his coattails ; Nee gave Lee bona fides.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Pros vs "The Little Children" in Matthew 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Then why don't we each also pick the good bits from Nee, and others, and likewise fashion our own?
And further to your own post, we don't pick the good bits from Nee and Lee because there is danger that we will find them to be tainted by their leaven and therefore suspect as to whether they are, in fact, good bits. Better to look elsewhere.

I know that this is talking about how they spoke about their own teachings, but it is still worthwhile to point out that taking anything from them might be the wise choice.
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