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Old 09-22-2019, 07:56 PM   #1
Hannah
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Default New website of misinformation

I dont know if this is the right place to put this. But this is a new website addressing all those "rumors" and "lies." https://shepherdingwords.com/
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:37 PM   #2
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Can you point out the 'misinformation' in this new website?
Thank you.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:53 PM   #3
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I dont know if this is the right place to put this. But this is a new website addressing all those "rumors" and "lies." https://shepherdingwords.com/
Hannah, thank you for posting this. It is fascinating to see this group spin-doctoring. I for one stand behind every word of my testimony as true. God is true and in Him is no lie. If they want to bury the truth that is up to them, but I think they are on the wrong side of the line. I hope all the saints there innocent of the leaderships' ways and practices are led out by the Lord. I hope they all turn away from the wicked lies and practices and repent. Jesus is merciful! It is not too late.
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:53 AM   #4
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I dont know if this is the right place to put this. But this is a new website addressing all those "rumors" and "lies." https://shepherdingwords.com/
These wordsmiths at LSM/DCP are masters at spinning the facts for base gain.

Obviously the recent Facebook activity which spilled over to this forum has raised no small stir among the faithful still held captive in the Recovery.

This website, so called "Shepherding Words," in reality only steers the questioning faithful back to the bondage of Lee-ism. To these readers I can say that I concluded long ago never to trust LSM's version of events. LSM lost all respect when they decided to accuse beloved brother John Ingalls of orchestrating a global conspiracy in order to coverup the sexual transgressions of Philip Lee, who ran LSM for his Dad.

It's really just big business squashing the truth. Too bad none of us has the money to continually develop all of their expensive websites. When they quarantined the Midwest churches, their printing operations developed 28 beautiful booklets, the "attack pack," distributed freely. Same with local training sessions to coach dissidents how to sue their church -- just big business crushing LC's, the little flock of God.
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:39 AM   #5
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Can you point out the 'misinformation' in this new website?
Thank you.
Is that a genuine question? Have you allowed yourself to read about any of the items on the website not from the perspective of LSM? LCD is full of first hand accounts, I am relatively new so I wouldn't be able to point you to those.

The cognitive dissonance is so strong in the LC. Just because they say something isnt so, like people are free to meet anywhere, they arent an organization, there is no hierarchy, women are treated the same as men, there has never been a cover-up doesnt change what is actually true. A duck is a duck even if you insist on calling it a frog
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:29 AM   #6
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Default Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Please post all responses to the various articles on ShepherdingWords.Com here on this thread
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

What's shepherdingword.com ? Is this website LSM's affliated?
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Well it says "From the Co-Workers in The Lord’s Recovery in North America", so that would be a pretty big hint that this website is Living Stream Ministry affiliated.
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Well it says "From the Co-Workers in The Lord’s Recovery in North America", so that would be a pretty big hint that this website is Living Stream Ministry affiliated.
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"From the Co-Workers?"

Don't these folks have any names, or are they hiding behind monikers like the posters here, as if we have the power and financial wherewithal to sue them, as they have done to so many others.

This "shepherdingword" website definitely is in response to all the scandals exposed by the Casteel Facebook site. Obviously it scared the Blendeds far more than our comments on this forum. I did not understand the power of Facebook until now.

YouTube too! Let's all up vote Cal's "Opinions Free" channel!
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:49 AM   #10
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

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This "shepherdingword" website definitely is in response to all the scandals exposed by the Casteel Facebook site.
Silly me. I was expecting them to get into the scandals. But all I saw was spin.

And why didn't they put their names to the site? But then, they don't want anyone too know who's doing the spin-wash.

If a site or article doesn't have an author(s) then I don't give it any weight.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

They put something in there about the deposition of Max saying in which he said not all in the newspaper articles he was in was inaccurate. I had not read that before. All these years, he was the ambitious wolf who wanted to seize control of the recovery. There was the usual all lies and rumors and don't expose the deputy authority.
Then there's the ministry/minister of the age. Why did it only begin with Martin Luther? Who would have been the MOTA in the age of the church fathers? Was Augustine a MOTA?
I wonder if the co-workers live in the past? There does seem to be some advancement among the Christians about coming to know the Lord since WL first arrived in the USA.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

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"From the Co-Workers?"

Don't these folks have any names, or are they hiding behind monikers like the posters here, as if we have the power and financial wherewithal to sue them, as they have done to so many others.
You have no power and financial wherewithal to sue them. What if their own members whom they tried to pacify and win back become more unsettled and would confront them or even sue them? Surely cannot put their names down!

Another explanation is: there are too many of em 'co-workers' to name.
Or: they are not their people's shephards, but hirings. The sheep do not know them and they dare not put their names down in a 'shepherding' site as if they are shepherds. And they admit it is only 'shepherding'WORDS. Only words ....

"The co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America"
note: NORTH AMERICA

When they feel they still cannot win the battle, they will mobilise 'co-workers of the whole world'.

Quote:
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This "shepherdingword" website definitely is in response to all the scandals exposed by the Casteel Facebook site. Obviously it scared the Blendeds far more than our comments on this forum. I did not understand the power of Facebook until now.
LSM itself use Facebook as much as they use websites. LCers use fb extensively, not just those who have been through the full-time trainings. So the Casteel Facebook post IS very damaging to them. It now has over 6k views. Guess how many who were told not to view that page had actually viewed that page.

They need how many 'co-workers', 'fathers', 'delegated authorities' ... to fight ONE woman?
They need how many meetings, big and small, and how many nights and days, long and short, and how many means and how much resources, to counter ONE facebook post?

Obviously it scared the Blendeds far more than our comments on this forum.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

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Originally Posted by least View Post
LSM itself use Facebook as much as they use websites. LCers use fb extensively, not just those who have been through the full-time trainings. So the Casteel Facebook post IS very damaging to them. It now has over 6k views. Guess how many who were told not to view that page had actually viewed that page.

They need how many 'co-workers', 'fathers', 'delegated authorities' ... to fight ONE woman?
They need how many meetings, big and small, and how many nights and days, long and short, and how many means and how much resources, to counter ONE facebook post?

Obviously it scared the Blendeds far more than our comments on this forum.
I remember being in trainings and hearing the blendeds telling everyone to not read any 'negative' websites, and back then I had no idea what they were even talking about. But social media presents information in a different way entirely and that definitely has the blendeds scrambling.

It's actually very telling that this new website of theirs mentions matters that they've been mostly ignoring. There are all kinds of writings online that attempted to address such matters or solicit a response from the blendeds, and the blendeds have pretty much ignored all of it. But all the sudden, when a facebook post circulates and is widely viewed, that same strategy doesn't work for them anymore. As might be expected, they're saying things like "these rumors were long ago disproven." But really, what I think has happened here is that they finally are starting to realize that the history they have tried to bury is not so buried after all.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Excerpt From: Some Questions and Answers Regarding Deputy Authority

What if a deputy authority is wrong? If a deputy authority is wrong, we should still submit (Dan. 3:19-21; Acts 16:20-25), though we cannot obey if the authority insists that we act contrary to God (Dan. 3:16-18; Acts 5:29). In the church a failure by the deputy authority should be handled through proper fellowship. For example, a failure in the eldership should be handled through fellowship with the apostles (1 Cor. 1:10-11; 5:1, 13; 1 Tim. 5:19-20).
(emphasis supplied)


I have a couple of burning questions to ask the author(s) of this article.

1) If a deputy authority is wrong ABOUT WHAT? What if they are wrong about a central and core item of the Christian faith? What if they teach heresy? What if they commit major financial malfeasance? What if they bring a family member into the ministry and this person is abusive to those who work and volunteer at said ministry? What happens when the deputy authority knowingly and willingly allows the abuser to attack and abuse, and then turns and attacks the wistleblowers?


2) "Through fellowship with the apostles". WHO ARE TODAY'S APOSTLES? NAME THEM. The apostle Paul named himself as an apostle: (1 Timothy 1:1) The apostle Peter named himself as an apostle: (1 Peter 1:1) The Acts of the apostles names the apostles. Presumably, some or all of the Blended Brothers consider themselves as today's apostles. Hard to say since they are constantly exercising, enforcing and reinforcing apostolic authority WITHOUT IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES BY PERSONAL NAMES.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weighingin View Post
They put something in there about the deposition of Max saying in which he said not all in the newspaper articles he was in was inaccurate. I had not read that before. All these years, he was the ambitious wolf who wanted to seize control of the recovery. There was the usual all lies and rumors and don't expose the deputy authority.
Yeah sure, as a newbie in the LC's, I saw the chaos caused by Max back in the 70's. But how could that have been bad for W. Lee? Where was the rebellion against Lee? Max's goal was simple: to incite all the young people to embrace Lee's latest "flow," called the "young Galilean's."

Oh, and I should mention that Max Rapoport rose to prominence at Lee's new global headquarters on Ball Road in Anaheim by traveling around the LC's instructing the saints to consider their Daystar investment an "offering." Was that not a fleecing? And who put him up to that? And who then promoted him?

I was there in those chaotic meetings in Cleveburg during the summer of 1977. The Max-induced conflict was between the elders (think Titus Chu) and some of the young people's leaders who were exceedingly zealous to be "faithful to Brother Lee's burden."

So here are two facts that LSM won't tell you about Max:
  • How was Max trying to "seize control of the recovery" when the young people were all fired up by his ministry to zealously follow, not Max, but Brother Lee's burden?
  • It was Witness Lee himself who authorized and instructed Max to go out to all the LC's and "shake things up" thus "liberating" the young people from the "control" of their elders.
When Max left he had a thorough repentance. He repented of any damaged he had caused by obeying Lee's orders. Too bad others have not learned from him.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Excerpt From: Some Questions and Answers Regarding Deputy Authority

What if a deputy authority is wrong? If a deputy authority is wrong, we should still submit (Dan. 3:19-21; Acts 16:20-25), though we cannot obey if the authority insists that we act contrary to God (Dan. 3:16-18; Acts 5:29). In the church a failure by the deputy authority should be handled through proper fellowship. For example, a failure in the eldership should be handled through fellowship with the apostles (1 Cor. 1:10-11; 5:1, 13; 1 Tim. 5:19-20).
(emphasis supplied)


I have a couple of burning questions to ask the author(s) of this article.
I have a burning question too. Who appoints the "Deputy Authority" of the Recovery? Who gave him this authority?

Doesn't that guy Francis in Rome already claim to be the Vicar of Christ, God's "Deputy Authority?" According to the Blendeds, if the Pope is wrong, we should still submit to him. Right?

Yo Blendeds, you can't have it both ways!
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:10 AM   #17
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Correction: I meant that not all was accurate in the Max newspaper articles.
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Old 09-23-2019, 01:34 PM   #18
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I have a burning question too. Who appoints the "Deputy Authority" of the Recovery? Who gave him this authority?

Doesn't that guy Francis in Rome already claim to be the Vicar of Christ, God's "Deputy Authority?" According to the Blendeds, if the Pope is wrong, we should still submit to him. Right?

Yo Blendeds, you can't have it both ways!
Could it be Brother We who appointed the Deputy Authority? 😃 But I had read
that WL said that he was confident that there was a group of
blended bros that would carry on the ministry.
(passing the mantle to a group as there were no more
spiritual giants after him?)
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Old 09-23-2019, 01:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Quote:
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I have a burning question too. Who appoints the "Deputy Authority" of the Recovery? Who gave him this authority?

Doesn't that guy Francis in Rome already claim to be the Vicar of Christ, God's "Deputy Authority?" According to the Blendeds, if the Pope is wrong, we should still submit to him. Right?

Yo Blendeds, you can't have it both ways!
Well David was always respectful and subservient, to a fault, of King Saul - even though Saul kept trying to personally kill him. This was because David was mindful that the Lord had anointed Saul king, regardless of the bad things Saul was doing.

But you do have a point about the Church in Rome guy (aka Pope). There's a case to made there (and 1.2 billion Catholics would agree)!
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:09 PM   #20
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So here are two facts that LSM won't tell you about Max:
  • How was Max trying to "seize control of the recovery" when the young people were all fired up by his ministry to zealously follow, not Max, but Brother Lee's burden?
  • It was Witness Lee himself who authorized and instructed Max to go out to all the LC's and "shake things up" thus "liberating" the young people from the "control" of their elders.
When Max left he had a thorough repentance. He repented of any damaged he had caused by obeying Lee's orders. Too bad others have not learned from him.
Having read through these new DCP articles, it's incredible how much of a spin they will put on things and they're really just grasping at straws. There have been a lot of things said about Max, but what the article on Max focuses on is not even what I would consider to be important about the events surrounding him.

So Max gave a newspaper interview and regretted it later. Big deal. It really has nothing to do with his stance regarding the LC or the events leading up to him leaving. And of course they would never tell anyone why Max left or how WL had his hand in it.
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:40 AM   #21
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Terry Risenhoover posted the following on Facebook:

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DCP posted their latest website and I want to give five specific examples of how they lie by not telling the truth by avoiding the actual issue.

1. They do not address the fact that the sale of Daystar unregistered securities were a violation of Federal and State law.
2. They do not address the transfer of funds from a non profit to a for profit foreign entity.
3. They do not address the fact that the repayment of loans and some investors came from the charging of training fees.
4. They completely distorted, twisted and factually misrepresented the actual events related to Sal Benoit and the Church in Boston.
Sal confirmed that yesterday in an hour long conversation.
5. They completely misrepresent the testimonies of Max and Sandee Rapaport and many of us on this forum have first hand knowledge of this.
Time does not permit me to address the myriad of misrepresentations made throughout their website as I am preparing to take my wife for major surgery tomorrow morning and we would appreciate your prayers.
There is an ever growing mountain of evidence from co-workers, elders and former members that fully exposes the unrighteousness of the blended brothers.

Judgment begins at the House of God and we must first examine our own hearts and then pray for our deceived brethren because we too were once deceived and the Lord had mercy on us. The battle belongs to the Lord and the enemy is a vanquished foe so let us rejoice in the Lord and give God the Glory!

May God Bless all of you and may you feast on the unsearchable riches of Christ in His Word.


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Old 09-24-2019, 09:54 AM   #22
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Here's another post concerning LSM/DCP from a FaceBook poster named John Thumper of Chicago. (not sure if that's his real name)

Quote:
Here's some shepherding words for everyone: DCP hires private investigators, has pictures taken of people considered "opposing", and goes through their trash to look for information. They have rows and rows of file cabinets with information on people, genuine Christians mind you, who they consider "negative".

Maybe we missed that chapter in the book of Investigations in the Bible that described the underhanded tactics necessary in defending a now-admitted fallible human being's ministry that has been passed off for years as something we cannot question, disagree with, discern for ourselves, or proclaim the truth when it is flat out wrong, un-scriptural, and damaging.

Why so many meetings, Q&As, fearful warnings telling people to run away from simple printed words, letters among the leading ones, and now an entire dedicated website in response to one Facebook post that is just one drop in the gigantic ocean of Facebook posts in existence?

Is this behavior of a group that has nothing to hide? Is this behavior of a pure church that has the highest teachings and thinks they have so little need of anything else they actively and intentionally do everything they can to cut themselves off from the rest of the Body of Christ (those dear, genuine, Jesus-following fellow believers in "evil Christianity")?

We all know how we act when we don't want the truth to be discovered. We are getting a master class in it right now from LSM and DCP. Saints, start asking questions. God has a mind. We are created in His image. We are not made to "get out of our mind". Start using your God-given minds to think critically about what is going on.



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Old 09-24-2019, 10:19 AM   #23
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Does anyone think that "shepherding words" and "co-workers in the Lord’s recovery" qualifies as a non sequitur? And also is a classic oxymoron.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

I was reading on the Shepherding Words website the page about "Concerning Having One Publication Work." In reading this page on their website, I must say it really grated on me how they were doing their best to maintain justification for centralized control. Regardless of their specious argument, I just don't see the basis for this control in scripture (unless possibly you want to go Old Testament and talk about Jerusalem and the temple as the one place . . .)!

And if I remember my Local Church history correctly (at least how I've heard it secondhand), wasn't this one of the main reasons Bill Freeman was ousted from the LC in the mid-80s? Bill and others were publishing a regular newspaper in the NW called, "The Christian," which had a pretty wide dissemination. We even used to receive it while in Ohio, and it was very good. He was also publishing books and pamphlets, as were some others who were with him. My understanding is that he was told by LC leadership to cease these independent works (i.e., independent of LSM) and publications. From there his days were numbered in the LC. Is that an accurate understanding of this occurrence?

BTW - what is DCP?
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

Deputy authority does not exist because its impossible to determine who it is in this day and age.

The LR co-workers method of identifying deputy authority--revelation, resurrection and ministry--could be applied to any Christian. It's extremely subjective. What if two Christians have all three and disagree, who has more authority? Who decides for everyone else which has more of these components? Certainly not the "co-workers of the Lord's Recovery." In fact, no one can.

Whether any Christians has spiritual authority is not up to them, it is up to each observer. In short, it is for others to recognize, not for the ostensive authority to claim. If others do not recognize it, it may in fact not be there, or they may not recognize it. But no one is obligated to recognize authority because the so-called authority claims it exists or some third party claims it exists. It is up to each individual to decide. It's between each of us and the Lord.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:13 PM   #26
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Defense and Confirmation Project
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

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And if I remember my Local Church history correctly (at least how I've heard it secondhand), wasn't this one of the main reasons Bill Freeman was ousted from the LC in the mid-80s? Bill and others were publishing a regular newspaper in the NW called, "The Christian," which had a pretty wide dissemination. We even used to receive it while in Ohio, and it was very good. He was also publishing books and pamphlets, as were some others who were with him. My understanding is that he was told by LC leadership to cease these independent works (i.e., independent of LSM) and publications. From there his days were numbered in the LC. Is that an accurate understanding of this occurrence?

BTW - what is DCP?
Defense and Confirmation Project -- duplicitous expression based on Philippians 1.7 -- which in reality only offers the defense of the Lee family business, and not the Gospel at all.

In the early days (70's?) there was a "writer's conference" and Lee encouraged many to write and publish as a way to "get the riches out." In Feb 1986, during that "Pledge Allegiance to Lee" episode in the Elders Conf, Lee shut down all other writings except his own. Cleveland (Chuck Debelak) also had a fruitful paper called "The Harvest." Chicago (Jim Reetzke) had the "First Fruits." There were also papers in Texas and elsewhere.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:12 PM   #28
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What is DCP?

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Defense and Confirmation Project
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:33 PM   #29
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Here's another post concerning LSM/DCP from a FaceBook poster named John Thumper of Chicago. (not sure if that's his real name)
"Here's some shepherding words for everyone: DCP hires private investigators, has pictures taken of people considered "opposing", and goes through their trash to look for information. They have rows and rows of file cabinets with information on people, genuine Christians mind you, who they consider "negative"."

Seriously. Will John Thumper (of Facebook) come here to shed more light on this?
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:22 AM   #30
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Concerning the Ministry’s Attitude Toward Sisters
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This does not mean, however, that males should behave in a domineering manner, and to imply that the ministry in the Lord’s recovery teaches that they should is again dishonest.
Firstly, a "Ministry" doesn't have an attitude...a ministry isn't a person, a ministry is an organization composed of people with attitudes. And let's take a look at this ministry leader's attitude towards his wife:

"I am the co-worker, my wife is nothing! I will never exalt her, I will never crown her! This would be to damage her!"
Mr. Ron Kangas
Presumed Blended Brother and
Co-Worker in The Lord's Recovery


One could only assume about the horrific attitude that this man must have towards women who are not his wife. We all know where this horrific attitude towards women came from - it came from Ron's guru and acting god, Witness Lee.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:21 AM   #31
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"I am the co-worker, my wife is nothing! I will never exalt her, I will never crown her! This would be to damage her!"
Mr. Ron Kangas
Presumed Blended Brother and
Co-Worker in The Lord's Recovery


One could only assume about the horrific attitude that this man must have towards women who are not his wife. We all know where this horrific attitude towards women came from - it came from Ron's guru and acting god, Witness Lee.
-
I married a Chinese sister. She was by far the most submissive woman I've ever known. And she didn't do it because the Bible, or anyone in the LC, told her to. She did it because it's her culture. Until marriage Chinese females submit to their fathers. Then to their husbands. And if their husband dies, then to their son.

Paul's record towards women, plays right into that. The question remains, why would someone that went to Princeton buy into it? Methinks education perchance isn't up to the task of wiping out misogyny. I don't know how Kangas was raised. He never brought it up. But I know he wasn't raised in a Chinese culture.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:43 AM   #32
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Defense and Confirmation Project -- duplicitous expression based on Philippians 1.7 -- which in reality only offers the defense of the Lee family business, and not the Gospel at all.

In the early days (70's?) there was a "writer's conference" and Lee encouraged many to write and publish as a way to "get the riches out." In Feb 1986, during that "Pledge Allegiance to Lee" episode in the Elders Conf, Lee shut down all other writings except his own. Cleveland (Chuck Debelak) also had a fruitful paper called "The Harvest." Chicago (Jim Reetzke) had the "First Fruits." There were also papers in Texas and elsewhere.
Oh yes - I vaguely remember the "First Fruits" publication, and that it was really good.

Boy, try to find support in the word for what was done! (although the DCP Shepherding Words website does try to make a weak support of that kind of action . . . to mask centralized command and control I suspect)
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:45 AM   #33
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"Here's some shepherding words for everyone: DCP hires private investigators, has pictures taken of people considered "opposing", and goes through their trash to look for information. They have rows and rows of file cabinets with information on people, genuine Christians mind you, who they consider "negative"."
Do you think they have files on all of us, and are trying to figure out who we are?
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:51 AM   #34
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Do you think they have files on all of us, and are trying to figure out who we are?
Bro, your file was opened back when you were in Berkeley. And they only keep the dirt on you, all the good stuff is ignored.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:57 AM   #35
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Oh yes - I vaguely remember the "First Fruits" publication, and that it was really good.

Boy, try to find support in the word for what was done! (although the DCP Shepherding Words website does try to make a weak support of that kind of action . . . to mask centralized command and control I suspect)
DCP is "God's Move" on the earth today. Haven't you heard? Why in the world would they need any "support in the word" of God?
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Old 09-25-2019, 09:31 AM   #36
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Do you think they have files on all of us, and are trying to figure out who we are?

Yes.


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Old 09-25-2019, 09:33 AM   #37
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Concerning the Ministry’s Attitude Toward Sisters


Firstly, a "Ministry" doesn't have an attitude...a ministry isn't a person, a ministry is an organization composed of people with attitudes. And let's take a look at this ministry leader's attitude towards his wife:

"I am the co-worker, my wife is nothing! I will never exalt her, I will never crown her! This would be to damage her!"
Mr. Ron Kangas
Presumed Blended Brother and
Co-Worker in The Lord's Recovery


One could only assume about the horrific attitude that this man must have towards women who are not his wife. We all know where this horrific attitude towards women came from - it came from Ron's guru and acting god, Witness Lee.
-
Their deception and hypocrisy is just so striking. When people bring forth complaints regarding the LC's mistreatment of women or any other issue, it's mostly based on real-life experiences, not what WL did or didn't say.

WL did make statements, however, showing his own attitude towards women. So they publish an article trying to claim that WL didn't mean what he said. But that's not even the real issue at hand. The real issue is the statements that are still being made like what Ron said during the summer training. The real issue is also the actions of LCers that have caused people to become concerned in the first place.
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Old 09-25-2019, 09:44 AM   #38
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Yes.


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Well, as "they" say - just because yer paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
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Old 09-25-2019, 11:07 AM   #39
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Do you think they have files on all of us, and are trying to figure out who we are?
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Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Yes.
When Drake showed up recently, he made a few comments about me that could only be known by someone who had monitored the forum for a lengthy period of time. Now that could mean that he was a long time lurker who decided to register one day, but I doubt it. Either he was reading from a DCP file on me, or ole Drake was merely a reincarnation of past posters (I have a couple names in mind), or both.
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Old 09-25-2019, 05:02 PM   #40
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"Here's some shepherding words for everyone: DCP hires private investigators, has pictures taken of people considered "opposing", and goes through their trash to look for information. They have rows and rows of file cabinets with information on people, genuine Christians mind you, who they consider "negative"."

Seriously. Will John Thumper (of Facebook) come here to shed more light on this?
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Do you think they have files on all of us, and are trying to figure out who we are?
StG, read post 22 by Ohio.

Those words in red was part of what someone posted in facebook.
I hope this person can come here to shed more light on DCP actions.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:57 PM   #41
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Well I don't care if the DCP, or anybody else, finds out who I am. It wouldn't be that hard to figure out, since we are a small group here in Scottsdale, and there is only one here who's been in the LC in both Berkeley and Ohio!

So if another Christian went after me for my beliefs and I just show them love, does that constitute a heavenly reward for me? (i.e., does that constitute persecution?)
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:09 PM   #42
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Well I don't care if the DCP, or anybody else, finds out who I am. It wouldn't be that hard to figure out, since we are a small group here in Scottsdale, and there is only one here who's been in the LC in both Berkeley and Ohio!

So if another Christian went after me for my beliefs and I just show them love, does that constitute a heavenly reward for me?
hmmmm ....

Make sure they get a 'shining celebrity' version of your photo to sit in their cabinet (you are counted worthy).
When you see a camera aiming at you, s m i l e .... cheeeese se se ....love .... yey!
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:16 AM   #43
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Terry Risenhoover posted the following on Facebook:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCP posted their latest website and I want to give five specific examples of how they lie by not telling the truth by avoiding the actual issue.

1. They do not address the fact that the sale of Daystar unregistered securities were a violation of Federal and State law.
2. They do not address the transfer of funds from a non profit to a for profit foreign entity.
3. They do not address the fact that the repayment of loans and some investors came from the charging of training fees.
4. They completely distorted, twisted and factually misrepresented the actual events related to Sal Benoit and the Church in Boston.
Sal confirmed that yesterday in an hour long conversation.
5. They completely misrepresent the testimonies of Max and Sandee Rapaport and many of us on this forum have first hand knowledge of this.
Time does not permit me to address the myriad of misrepresentations made throughout their website as I am preparing to take my wife for major surgery tomorrow morning and we would appreciate your prayers.
There is an ever growing mountain of evidence from co-workers, elders and former members that fully exposes the unrighteousness of the blended brothers.

Judgment begins at the House of God and we must first examine our own hearts and then pray for our deceived brethren because we too were once deceived and the Lord had mercy on us. The battle belongs to the Lord and the enemy is a vanquished foe so let us rejoice in the Lord and give God the Glory!

May God Bless all of you and may you feast on the unsearchable riches of Christ in His Word.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Terry Risenhoover posted the following on Facebook:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCP posted their latest website and I want to give five specific examples of how they lie by not telling the truth by avoiding the actual issue.

1. They do not address the fact that the sale of Daystar unregistered securities were a violation of Federal and State law.
2. They do not address the transfer of funds from a non profit to a for profit foreign entity.
3. They do not address the fact that the repayment of loans and some investors came from the charging of training fees.
4. They completely distorted, twisted and factually misrepresented the actual events related to Sal Benoit and the Church in Boston.
Sal confirmed that yesterday in an hour long conversation.
5. They completely misrepresent the testimonies of Max and Sandee Rapaport and many of us on this forum have first hand knowledge of this.
Time does not permit me to address the myriad of misrepresentations made throughout their website as I am preparing to take my wife for major surgery tomorrow morning and we would appreciate your prayers.
There is an ever growing mountain of evidence from co-workers, elders and former members that fully exposes the unrighteousness of the blended brothers.

Judgment begins at the House of God and we must first examine our own hearts and then pray for our deceived brethren because we too were once deceived and the Lord had mercy on us. The battle belongs to the Lord and the enemy is a vanquished foe so let us rejoice in the Lord and give God the Glory!

May God Bless all of you and may you feast on the unsearchable riches of Christ in His Word.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good ol' Risenhoover. Who knows Lee committed crimes cuz he was there.
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Old 09-30-2019, 11:57 AM   #45
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On the shepherdingwords.com site, there is a letter that was sent out to elders in July (not sure if they had this letter posted previously):
https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/Nor...205%202019.pdf
Quote:
Matters that do not involve crimes fall under the administration of the church and should be handled by the leading ones with much prayer and fellowship. Accusations related to criminal matters should be referred to law enforcement professionals and/or child protection agencies...
It's interesting how they try to pretend like they've always handled things this way. Anyone who knows anything about LC history knows this isn't the case. There are multiple stories of the elders specially telling people NOT to contact the authorities.

Quote:
The leading ones should help the saints to realize that any accusation brought to them that falls within the church’s administration must be dealt with cautiously and judiciously based on verifiable facts. Though this may tax the saints’ patience, it is necessary to deal fairly with all parties... The saints should know that if a matter has been referred to the elders, they should not talk about it among themselves lest they sin by damaging others’ reputations,compromise the elders’ ability to effectively address the situation, and inflame fleshly reactions among the saints...
This quote from their letter is an example of how they like to pretend to be fair and balanced even though they have no intention of dealing with the actual issue at hand. When someone feels to make an accusation or wants to discuss a problem, the facts aren't always readily available. That itself shouldn't necessarily stop someone from speaking up. The LC seems to have this thing where stuff gets brought to the elders and then disappears into a black hole of of being "dealt with" by them. Of course, there is never any transparency or indication of a resolution, so that I think is what gets all the rumors started. Do they not realize this?

The whole reason people usually go public is when they feel like their concerns have not or will not be adequately addressed in-house.
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Old 09-30-2019, 12:25 PM   #46
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The LC seems to have this thing where stuff gets brought to the elders and then disappears into a black hole of of being "dealt with" by them. Of course, there is never any transparency or indication of a resolution, so that I think is what gets all the rumors started. Do they not realize this?
Freedom, you have accurately summarized 100 years of Recovery history in one paragraph!

These internal "rumors" become "storms" in the Recovery because the injured parties continue to cry out for justice. But none comes! Instead we get endless articles from headquarters, just like the one you linked, explaining away all accountability. Vindication, justification, and dissembling are their M.O. That's all they know.

Witness Lee established a rotten pattern for all the Blendeds to follow when it comes to all manners of ministry abuses. Perhaps he learned himself from others in China. Today, the Blendeds have been trained this way. There's no changing them.

I have concluded that hoping for anything else is a waste of time. More articles and websites, yes. Honesty, accountability, or change, no.
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Old 09-30-2019, 01:24 PM   #47
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These internal "rumors" become "storms" in the Recovery because the injured parties continue to cry out for justice. But none comes! Instead we get endless articles from headquarters, just like the one you linked, explaining away all accountability. Vindication, justification, and dissembling are their M.O. That's all they know.

Witness Lee established a rotten pattern for all the Blendeds to follow when it comes to all manners of ministry abuses. Perhaps he learned himself from others in China. Today, the Blendeds have been trained this way. There's no changing them.
Yes, and actually the fact that the Blendeds like to classify everything as "rumors" is something that LCers should give some thought to. Does it really seem sensible that within the LC (or any other Christian group) people would be going around and recklessly spreading rumors about others? Of course not. In fact, it would be expected that Christians would be all the more cautious about that.

The so-called "rumors" are really just the end effect of inappropriately handling a situation. Any type of dispute involves at least two parties and it just doesn't seem realistic that they would think things could be contained to the point of there being no discussion among the saints.

For instance, over the years, I saw multiple occurrences of situations where someone took issue with what someone else did, and then stopped meeting after there was no effort by anyone to mediate or help resolve the situation. Lets say the person who leaves is involved in several church services like cleaning, music, etc. All the sudden, the people who are in those services are also indirectly affected by the situation, and it just multiplies from there. At a certain point, it is no longer possible to contain it as being off limits for discussion. It's easy to see how stuff becomes a much bigger problem if it is not addressed quickly and transparently.
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:38 AM   #48
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From the main page of the Shepherdingwords.com site:
Quote:
Shortcomings of individual saints or churches nullify neither the vision of the Lord’s recovery nor the standing of the local churches on the unique ground of oneness...

Nevertheless, we must realize that, consistent with the testimony of the New Testament, not every believer who meets in the local churches is walking in life and light. Sinful things, even evil things, can and do happen, but that does not prove that the ministry we receive or the churches it produces are not of God...
These statements are examples of how the LC likes to have things both ways. They like to go around thinking that they are the so-called Recovery, yet when various bad things happen that would cast a shadow on that image, they tell people to not take that to mean anything. It's ironic, because the LC wastes no time in pointing out the supposed "flaws" in other Christian groups in order to arrive at the conclusion that those groups are fallen, degraded, etc.

One of the reasons these type of statements catch my attention is because this type of reasoning is a common tactic they use to keep members with concerns from leaving. Statements like: nobody's perfect, the church-life is like a hospital, etc. The logic just doesn't add up, however. On this forum there has been a lot of discussion about the failures and shortcomings of the LC. The DCP/coworkers would like people to believe that such discussions are just people nitpicking about stuff. And it totally misconstrues the point that is being made. In almost all cases, the issue isn't so much a matter of what happened, it's a matter of how those situations were handled, and there's a big difference between the two.
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:22 AM   #49
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These statements are examples of how the LC likes to have things both ways. They like to go around thinking that they are the so-called Recovery, yet when various bad things happen that would cast a shadow on that image, they tell people to not take that to mean anything. It's ironic, because the LC wastes no time in pointing out the supposed "flaws" in other Christian groups in order to arrive at the conclusion that those groups are fallen, degraded, etc.
Exactly. I lived for years with this contradiction:
When something "bad" happens in Christianity, it proves they are degraded, hopeless, pathetic, etc.

When something "bad" happens in the Recovery, it doesn't mean a thing since "nobody's perfect."
Total hypocrisy! Didn't Jesus confront it and say, "With what judgment you judge, you will also be judged." -- Matt 7.2
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:50 AM   #50
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What's the difference between the blendeds and co workers?
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Old 10-02-2019, 02:03 PM   #51
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What's the difference between the blendeds and co workers?
I don't know but I think coworkers worked with Lee and Blendeds come after Lee is gone ... they're the ones that were most blended with Lee. That means the coworkers got a promotion.
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Old 10-02-2019, 03:25 PM   #52
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Exactly. I lived for years with this contradiction:
When something "bad" happens in Christianity, it proves they are degraded, hopeless, pathetic, etc.

When something "bad" happens in the Recovery, it doesn't mean a thing since "nobody's perfect."
Total hypocrisy! Didn't Jesus confront it and say, "With what judgment you judge, you will also be judged." -- Matt 7.2
Yeah, and I think that this is part of what makes the LC so toxic. On their website, they try to define the LC by two concepts 1) The vision of the Lord’s recovery and 2) The standing of the local churches on the unique ground of oneness. While neither is a valid concept IMO, those two notions are what I would consider to be mutually exclusive.

If they want to claim that taking a certain standing legitimizes or delegitimizes Christians, then they should accept all who take their standing, regardless of how "degraded" they are perceived to be. On the other hand, if they want to talk about being recovered from a supposed "degraded" state, then having a certain standing would not automatically protect anyone from that state.
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:13 PM   #53
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Yeah, and I think that this is part of what makes the LC so toxic. On their website, they try to define the LC by two concepts 1) The vision of the Lord’s recovery and 2) The standing of the local churches on the unique ground of oneness. While neither is a valid concept IMO, those two notions are what I would consider to be mutually exclusive.

If they want to claim that taking a certain standing legitimizes or delegitimizes Christians, then they should accept all who take their standing, regardless of how "degraded" they are perceived to be. On the other hand, if they want to talk about being recovered from a supposed "degraded" state, then having a certain standing would not automatically protect anyone from that state.
For instance, in the group I meet with the legal name is "The Church in Scottsdale" (FYI - we don't use that in normal practice). But the LC does not recognize us as being legit. Why?
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:07 AM   #54
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For instance, in the group I meet with the legal name is "The Church in Scottsdale" (FYI - we don't use that in normal practice). But the LC does not recognize us as being legit. Why?
Yeah, in the LC it's all completely subjective besides the obvious things like their insisting on the use of LSM materials. And the scary part of it is that if they are telling members which groups are and aren't legitimate groups, those members are trapped as long as they haven't started to question what they're being told.

In the LC, time and time again I saw people being taken advantage of, being bullied, all kinds of things. In most cases, the people who were victimized never left. Why? Because they were convinced that the so-called Recovery could not be wrong. They were convinced that any wrong-doing was just the shortcomings of individual members.
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:19 AM   #55
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For instance, in the group I meet with the legal name is "The Church in Scottsdale" (FYI - we don't use that in normal practice). But the LC does not recognize us as being legit. Why?
Because they are hypocrites.
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Old 10-03-2019, 01:54 PM   #56
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Does anyone think that "shepherding words" and "co-workers in the Lord’s recovery" qualifies as a non sequitur? And also is a classic oxymoron.
It's biased and self-serving, but what else to expect. Were they honest, it might well be titled "A desperate attempt at damage control from the co-workers in the Lord's recovery". I suspect desperation because the 'Oracle' Witness Lee once told us that he was done talking about all this and he expected that henceforth these matters were closed for discussion. But now he's buried and the matters are once again being raised. Not good.

Three questions for those presuming to write shepherding words:

1. (a) If women can't teach, why sell Mary McDonough's book "God's Plan" right next to those by Nee and Lee? In LSM's online catalogue of titles under "G", there it is, available for the public. Why the inconsistency in application?

1. (b) How do you think Dora Yu or Ruth Lee would have fared under Witness Lee, or under today's blended co-workers? Or, how would Jessie Penn-Lewis fare today? Or Peace Wang? Or Margaret Barber? How would they all find any place today, in the recovery they supposedly helped to found?

2. Why do some psalms of imprecations have footnotes panning them for being "natural" and "fallen" in wishing others ill, while others have near-identical sentiments being hailed as Christ's victory over Satan? Why the inconsistency in application?

3. The apostle wrote to avoid every appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22). Don't you think that a church leader pressuring church members to invest in his immediate family's money-making schemes looks bad? No matter that it collapsed and the money disappeared - the very fact that it was set up looks bad. How was this not a blight on the church? Daystar showed Witness Lee's true colors - how can anyone say that this was a "flow from God's throne", or a "manifestation of God's deputy authority"?
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Old 10-03-2019, 02:50 PM   #57
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It's biased and self-serving, but what else to expect. Were they honest, it might well be titled "A desperate attempt at damage control from the co-workers in the Lord's recovery". I suspect desperation because the 'Oracle' Witness Lee once told us that he was done talking about all this and he expected that henceforth these matters were closed for discussion. But now he's buried and the matters are once again being raised. Not good.
When I see their latest attempts at damage control, I think back to being in the LC. There would be entire meetings dedicated to damage control, usually one of the messages of the semi-annual training. It seemed normal to have meetings used for that purpose.

Actually, I remember going to the special gathering for everyone in SoCal where they discussed the quarantine of Titus Chu (I had no idea who he even was and I'm sure many others didn't as well ). Yet everyone sat there, took in every word, happy to be under the up-to-date speaking.

I guess in retrospect it just all seems so odd and bizarre. It's hard to imagine taking that all seriously. It's hard to imagine that we actually believed that such speaking was them "shepherding" us.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:20 PM   #58
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Terry Risenhoover posted the following on Facebook:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCP posted their latest website and I want to give five specific examples of how they lie by not telling the truth by avoiding the actual issue.

1. They do not address the fact that the sale of Daystar unregistered securities were a violation of Federal and State law.
2. They do not address the transfer of funds from a non profit to a for profit foreign entity.
3. They do not address the fact that the repayment of loans and some investors came from the charging of training fees.
4. They completely distorted, twisted and factually misrepresented the actual events related to Sal Benoit and the Church in Boston.
Sal confirmed that yesterday in an hour long conversation.
5. They completely misrepresent the testimonies of Max and Sandee Rapaport and many of us on this forum have first hand knowledge of this.
Time does not permit me to address the myriad of misrepresentations made throughout their website as I am preparing to take my wife for major surgery tomorrow morning and we would appreciate your prayers.
There is an ever growing mountain of evidence from co-workers, elders and former members that fully exposes the unrighteousness of the blended brothers.

Judgment begins at the House of God and we must first examine our own hearts and then pray for our deceived brethren because we too were once deceived and the Lord had mercy on us. The battle belongs to the Lord and the enemy is a vanquished foe so let us rejoice in the Lord and give God the Glory!

May God Bless all of you and may you feast on the unsearchable riches of Christ in His Word.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more-what happened to the money donated for Linko?
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:24 PM   #59
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Actually, I remember going to the special gathering for everyone in SoCal where they discussed the quarantine of Titus Chu (I had no idea who he even was and I'm sure many others didn't as well ). Yet everyone sat there, took in every word, happy to be under the up-to-date speaking.

I guess in retrospect it just all seems so odd and bizarre. It's hard to imagine taking that all seriously. It's hard to imagine that we actually believed that such speaking was them "shepherding" us.
Speaking of Titus, in the localities I lived prior to his quarantine when did he visit and minister to the Church in San Bernardino or the Church in Bellevue. Never that I ever recalled. Even he who I was close to who attended Whistler didn't think much of the inquisition.
Question is how to the so-called "shepherds" shepherd those who think differently? They don't.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:12 AM   #60
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I remember being in trainings and hearing the blendeds telling everyone to not read any 'negative' websites, and back then I had no idea what they were even talking about. But social media presents information in a different way entirely and that definitely has the blendeds scrambling.
Hmm..... I guess this entire facebook post scandal explains why I've been taught at the recent YP conference to focus on positive things and not on the negative... in my opinion I think they're doing damage control from that scandal even in the YP conference
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:16 AM   #61
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Yeah I remember all the times they told us not to read anything online. I never took it to mean anything because I didn't know what they were even referring to in the first place. I was always under the impression that anything "negative" that was written about the LC was done by people who knew nothing about it. Imaging how surprised I was to find out that most of what they had been telling us to avoid was written by former members.

Just looking at the way the LC has responded to the whole facebook thing shows how much they were rattled by it. It all started with a simple facebook post. During the semi-annual training, RK was obsessed with the issue enough to dedicate an entire message to going off about the post and people who were involved. I don't think they would normally even acknowledge something like the facebook post unless they were already in full damage control mode.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:41 AM   #62
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I think the thought that got me a lot was, "Anything that is a genuine move of the Lord, the enemy will attack full force with lies and deception!" While that is true, I now see it was just another of those sayings to keep people in check and not look outside the exclusive group. (or was it possibly that the ones saying it really believed it?) Besides, we were told, there was nothing of any value out there any way!
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:06 PM   #63
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Yeah I remember hearing similar things. They wanted us to think that all the controversies surrounding the LC were completely normal and to be expected. I think what eventually helped me was to start looking at the LC from the perspective of an outsider. I came to realize that there's no way a group could be as controversial as the LC and expect to have a significant impact in the ways that they would really need to.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:12 PM   #64
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It shocked me to finally discover that all the opposition from within the Recovery was never due to ambition or persecution, rather it was a call for justice and repentance.
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:25 PM   #65
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I think that for a long time, the LC has been able to characterize all their turmoils as being due to things like ambition. Especially when people don't know the full situation, it might sound believable.

Then along comes someone who makes a simple facebook post. It gets thousands of comments from current and former members alike. All the sudden, the DCP/blended find themselves having to do damage control on something that doesn't play into the typical narrative. Not only that, the entire letter is a call for justice and repentance, so all of the current members who have read it already know what is about.
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:51 PM   #66
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Then LSM/DCP unleashes the full weight of their seasoned and fleshly tactics upon these little ones -- just two little whistle blowers calling out for justice -- calling on all their operatives to turn on them, throwing them under the bus, until one of them cracks under the pressure . . . then gloating, as if vindicated by the tragedy.

Ambition? And who has ever been as ambitious as those running LSM?
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:01 PM   #67
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There's a new article up on shepherdingwords.com titled "Facts Concerning Lily Hsu." Thoughts?
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:28 PM   #68
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I don't think that it will ever be possible to know exactly what happened in China or which account of events is the most accurate. I've seen discussion in the past as to whether or not Lily Hsu's account was simply communist propaganda. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I wouldn't know.

That being said, it doesn't escape my notice that these articles being posted on shepherdingwords.com are all authored anonymously. This new article calls into question her credibility saying she didn't have first hand knowledge of everything. Well who is the one calling into question her credibility? Was this person also there? Does this person know for a fact that she didn't have first hand knowledge? If this person was there, why don't they attach their name to the article? Unless they have their own account of what happened in China, they are essentially doing what they accuse Lily Hsu of doing.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:03 PM   #69
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Great points. When I first began to meet with the LC, I bought Angus Kinnear's biography of Nee, "Against the Tide." Immediately upon finding out, an elder told me not to read it, citing some 200 "major errors" in the book.

Says who? No list of errors was ever presented to me. The elder never read the book, and had no first hand knowledge of events, yet he -- with assurance -- willingly passed on what he heard about the book. And who alone could be the source of such a comment? Only W. Lee. How convenient! So only Lee could ever be the source of historical events in China.

Whether or not Dr. Lily Hsu is perfectly accurate on every detail is secondary to me. More important was the decision by the elders in Shanghai to discipline Nee in 1942, long before the Communist takeover. Since Nee had appointed these elders, and Shanghai was Nee's home church, does anybody in their right mind really believe Lee's account that Nee was wrongly disciplined for "living with his mother???"
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:05 PM   #70
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Ambition? And who has ever been as ambitious as those running LSM?
2004 when I met Bill and Barbara Mallon, I asked him if he was ambitious. After all that's what we were told why he left the local churches. Bill told me, if he was ambitious he would have stayed.
In recent years at one of the Puget Sound blending conferences Ron Kangas said he's "not going to step aside for anyone".
Who is the ambitious one?
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:41 AM   #71
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From the 'shepherding words' website: "one of [CCP] strategies to consolidate power was to launch “struggle campaigns” against real and perceived enemies and rivals. Mass rallies, mass media, and trained propagandists were used to stir up hatred toward “class enemies” that were to be eliminated. When sufficient fervency was produced, carefully scripted public accusation meetings and show trials were conducted to precipitate action against the state’s “enemies.” The strategy was successful in breaking down old loyalties, as neighbors, co-workers, and even family members accused one another of disloyalty to and crimes against the state."

A lot of people who made it out of the LR would recognise these tactics & methods. Ask Jane Anderson what it was like to participate in a show trial.

The 'SW' website sees the bias in the Communist Party, but they don't see their own partiality. Witness Lee's histories were just as suspect as Hsu's. Maybe moreso.

Jesus taught all this stuff, repeatedly. It's Christianity 101. You can see the splinter elsewhere but miss the beam lodged in you. Somehow, we thought Lee's "high peaks" obviated all that?
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:57 AM   #72
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2004 when I met Bill and Barbara Mallon, I asked him if he was ambitious. After all that's what we were told why he left the local churches. Bill told me, if he was ambitious he would have stayed.
In recent years at one of the Puget Sound blending conferences Ron Kangas said he's "not going to step aside for anyone".
Who is the ambitious one?
Like Romans 2.1 describes -- always accuse your enemies of what you are guilty of.

During the chaos of the "New Way," Bill Mallon exhorted the saints to return to the pure word of God. That supposedly was how the Recovery started, and supposedly a guiding principle for the ministry.

For that, he was accused of promoting the "tactics of the enemy." The Recovery faithful still believe this, especially in the SouthEast.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:02 AM   #73
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Lee's "High Peaks" were diversionary. Merely theological propaganda to "launch 'struggle campaigns' against real perceived enemies and rivals," such as John Ingalls.

What would you choose? The messy and ugly facts of history, or the chance to become God?
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:41 AM   #74
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Whether or not Dr. Lily Hsu is perfectly accurate on every detail is secondary to me. More important was the decision by the elders in Shanghai to discipline Nee in 1942, long before the Communist takeover. Since Nee had appointed these elders, and Shanghai was Nee's home church, does anybody in their right mind really believe Lee's account that Nee was wrongly disciplined for "living with his mother???"
Yeah, I think understanding Nee and all the things that happened is mostly a matter of just connecting the dots. Even WL's own account of the happenings in China mentions things that would certainly raise eyebrows, and of course, he just glosses over that part of it.

Lily Hsu's account is inconvenient for the LC simply because it doesn't ignore the parts of history that WL told everyone to. Regarding Nee, WL stated "whether he is wrong or right is not my business." That's quite an alarming statement considering that he felt himself qualified to write a biography of Nee. It definitely calls his own credibility into question.
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:42 AM   #75
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A lot of people who made it out of the LR would recognise these tactics & methods. Ask Jane Anderson what it was like to participate in a show trial.

The 'SW' website sees the bias in the Communist Party, but they don't see their own partiality. Witness Lee's histories were just as suspect as Hsu's. Maybe moreso.
Yeah, it probably would be fair to say that any account coming from that time period in China should be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of it could very well have been propaganda. We know that WL's account was, because of his statement regarding Nee, which I noted in my last post: "whether he is wrong or right is not my business."

Everything that happened with Nee just raises too many unanswered questions (and we will never have the answers). So really, a defense of Nee when there are so many unknowns is inherently biased. It also should be noted that Lily Hsu's book is even titled to indicate that it is her own 'memories'. To me that has the implication that the book isn't intended to be an authoritative account of what happened. So when they (LSM/DCP) go and attack such a book as being not credible, what they are up to seems all the more suspect.
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:55 AM   #76
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Yeah, I think understanding Nee and all the things that happened is mostly a matter of just connecting the dots. Even WL's own account of the happenings in China mentions things that would certainly raise eyebrows, and of course, he just glosses over that part of it.

Lily Hsu's account is inconvenient for the LC simply because it doesn't ignore the parts of history that WL told everyone to. Regarding Nee, WL stated "whether he is wrong or right is not my business." That's quite an alarming statement considering that he felt himself qualified to write a biography of Nee. It definitely calls his own credibility into question.
In the Midwest, we regularly heard similar comments from Titus Chu, e.g. "Brother Lee is my spiritual father, and his mistakes are none of my business." When it comes to the petty things of life, I totally agree, but what do we do when people get hurt? What do we do when crimes are committed?

One of the sisters who got hurt by Philip Lee was from the Cleveland area. In his account, John Ingalls recorded how TC flip-flopped on him overnight after being confronted by Team Lee. Read Ingalls account, "Visits From Titus Chu," dated late September 1988 in the book Speaking The Truth in Love.

For me, this calls TC's own credibility into question. We are not talking about petty things any more. Philip Lee hurt many people. John Ingalls and others came to their defense. Titus Chu tried sitting on the fence until he was forced to pick sides. Witness Lee attacked those ones who exposed the wrong doing at LSM. For whatever reason, TC suppressed his sense of indignation within, and sided with Lee. He then began to attack Ingall's credibility. I have a copy of that letter he wrote with Reetzke of Chicago.

Did TC really maintain his stand that "Brother Lee's mistakes are none of my business." I don't think so. TC made Lee's wrongs his own. TC's standing as a minister was thus compromised. It's no wonder that so many left him after the quarantines brought this past history to light.

Not only did Lee cover for Nee, but TC learned these same bad habits, and covered for Lee's serious failures. It did him no good in the end, however, since BP, RK, and company expelled him from their Recovery Men's Club.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:25 AM   #77
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Before I read Hsu's book I was a total skeptic. I couldn't believe that Nee would do such things. Lee & sons yes. Nee, NO!

The more I read, the more I began to think there might be something to it. Her writing style was matter-of-fact. No emotion. No bitterness. She just seemed to be writing what she knew and experienced. It was written in such a way that what she was saying was totally believable. No ranting and raving.

I don't know what she had to gain from telling her story, other than to clear her conscience which was stated in her book, as I recall. By the time I finished reading, I was sickened. Watchman Nee. Of all people. I guess its another lesson on putting people on a pedestal.

I've always believed that truth has a "ring" to it and you know it when you hear it. That bell rang for me when I read Hsu and I believe her story is true. I have long since looked for light and truth from Lee, et al. It's just not there. As for RK, if the light that is in his words be darkness...how great is that darkness.

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Old 10-10-2019, 01:32 PM   #78
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Before I read Hsu's book I was a total skeptic. I couldn't believe that Nee would do such things. Lee & sons yes. Nee, NO!

The more I read, the more I began to think there might be something to it. Her writing style was matter-of-fact. No emotion. No bitterness. She just seemed to be writing what she knew and experienced. It was written in such a way that what she was saying was totally believable. No ranting and raving.

I don't know what she had to gain from telling her story, other than to clear her conscience which was stated in her book, as I recall. By the time I finished reading, I was sickened. Watchman Nee. Of all people. I guess its another lesson on putting people on a pedestal.


I've always believed that truth has a "ring" to it and you know it when you hear it. That bell rang for me when I read Hsu and I believe her story is true. I have long since looked for light and truth from Lee, et al. It's just not there. As for RK, if the light that is in his words be darkness...how great is that darkness.
I think part of Lee's goal with how he portrayed Nee was for the purpose of establishing that he had been passed the torch from Nee himself. Thus, the view of Nee that people in the LC ended up with was completely skewed from any historical basis. It's no wonder that an account regarding Nee which contradicted the LC narrative would come as such a surprise.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:30 PM   #79
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In the Midwest, we regularly heard similar comments from Titus Chu, e.g. "Brother Lee is my spiritual father, and his mistakes are none of my business." When it comes to the petty things of life, I totally agree, but what do we do when people get hurt? What do we do when crimes are committed?

One of the sisters who got hurt by Philip Lee was from the Cleveland area. In his account, John Ingalls recorded how TC flip-flopped on him overnight after being confronted by Team Lee. Read Ingalls account, "Visits From Titus Chu," dated late September 1988 in the book Speaking The Truth in Love.

For me, this calls TC's own credibility into question. We are not talking about petty things any more. Philip Lee hurt many people. John Ingalls and others came to their defense. Titus Chu tried sitting on the fence until he was forced to pick sides. Witness Lee attacked those ones who exposed the wrong doing at LSM. For whatever reason, TC suppressed his sense of indignation within, and sided with Lee. He then began to attack Ingall's credibility. I have a copy of that letter he wrote with Reetzke of Chicago.

Did TC really maintain his stand that "Brother Lee's mistakes are none of my business." I don't think so. TC made Lee's wrongs his own. TC's standing as a minister was thus compromised. It's no wonder that so many left him after the quarantines brought this past history to light.

Not only did Lee cover for Nee, but TC learned these same bad habits, and covered for Lee's serious failures. It did him no good in the end, however, since BP, RK, and company expelled him from their Recovery Men's Club.
When looking at the situation that the LC is presently confronted with, and how they are responding to it, credibility is really a key issue. Of course, the LC standard tactic is to attack other people's credibility. Anyone who speaks out against the LC has their credibility attacked. They have done it to Lily Hsu now. Their articles on Daystar and Max do the exact same thing.

Amid all the smoke and mirrors, the real question is the credibility of the LSM/DCP/blendeds. In my mind they have not established themselves as people who should be taken seriously. Those who read the articles on shearingwords.com will find all the same old nonsense that have been putting out for years.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:43 PM   #80
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When looking at the situation that the LC is presently confronted with, and how they are responding to it, credibility is really a key issue. Of course, the LC standard tactic is to attack other people's credibility. Anyone who speaks out against the LC has their credibility attacked. They have done it to Lily Hsu now. Their articles on Daystar and Max do the exact same thing.

Amid all the smoke and mirrors, the real question is the credibility of the LSM/DCP/blendeds. In my mind they have not established themselves as people who should be taken seriously. Those who read the articles on shearingwords.com will find all the same old nonsense that have been putting out for years.
What I wonder is do they really believe the stuff they keep repeating in defense of all things WL/LC, or is there a nefarious motivation - keeping the LSM kingdom together at all costs?
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:55 PM   #81
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When looking at the situation that the LC is presently confronted with, and how they are responding to it, credibility is really a key issue. Of course, the LC standard tactic is to attack other people's credibility. Anyone who speaks out against the LC has their credibility attacked. They have done it to Lily Hsu now. Their articles on Daystar and Max do the exact same thing.

Amid all the smoke and mirrors, the real question is the credibility of the LSM/DCP/blendeds. In my mind they have not established themselves as people who should be taken seriously. Those who read the articles on shearingwords.com will find all the same old nonsense that have been putting out for years.
The website puts out "facts" about Daystar Motor Homes. Okay, what about these "facts" from someone there, who was personally recruited by Lee to work on the project? Shouldn't these be included as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Rutledge
Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.
Isn't it also a fact that son Timothy was President? Isn't there conflict of interests here?

More facts on Daystar, including Lee's personal assessment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Rutledge
Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit. In 1975, we were having a conference in Dallas. Before the meetings, we would pray in the large home on our property and then would walk across the parking lot to the large new hall we had just built. One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. Furthermore, that he (Witness Lee) would not follow Watchman Nee if Brother Nee left the vision, but he (Brother Lee) would continue to follow the vision. He then looked me straight in the eye and charged me, “Brother Don, if I leave the vision do not follow me, but follow the vision.” I was a little speechless but I did manage to return the embrace and assure Brother Lee that I would remain true to the vision and the truth.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:21 PM   #82
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More on Daystar and its aftermath, from one who was there.

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Originally Posted by Don Rutledge aka Hope View Post
In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.

After a meeting, we permitted brother Chang to present his vitamin business. I bought some. Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

I never mentioned Linko in Dallas but it was a big deal in Irving complete with models of the buildings to be built etc. Because the church in Dallas would not join in the cheerleading and fund raising from Irving there was more and more a strained relationship. Dallas did give money for Irving and the goal and purpose for the facility was shared. Benson came over a time or two and did some fund raising for that hall after a Lord’s table.

Usually Dallas had a sizable surplus in our bank accounts. On three occasions in Texas area elders meetings Benson and Ray put a press on Dallas to release our extra funds for Irving and LSM. We said no each time as our conscience did not agree that the money had been given by the saints for the questionable projects. This put quite a strain on our relationship.
The Daystar fiasco was one in a string of fiascos. Apparently Witness Lee kept at it until he found the formula: publishing, printing, and selling his own books. Daystar was not an aberration, or anomaly, but one of a series.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:23 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
What I wonder is do they really believe the stuff they keep repeating in defense of all things WL/LC, or is there a nefarious motivation - keeping the LSM kingdom together at all costs?
I suppose some do. Maybe others who have been in longer just don't take it all that seriously anymore.

I listened to the recording of the meeting they had during the summer training for past FTTA graduates. In the meeting, they talked about the facebook post and letter, then they claim the "target" is the younger generation. They then got all emotional, telling the attendees that they were their "spiritual fathers."

What was striking to me is that they were taking all the same old defense and introducing it to an audience who was probably not all that familiar with most of the past "turmoils." They first convince the audience that they are under attack, then tell them they are their fathers out to protect them from the attack, then they lay out their defense. I guess it works on people who don't really know what's going on.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:40 PM   #84
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They first convince the audience that they are under attack, then tell them they are their fathers out to protect them from the attack, then they lay out their defense. I guess it works on people who don't really know what's going on.
I am your father!

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Old 10-10-2019, 03:51 PM   #85
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It seems to be the latest thing in the LC - all the talk about "spiritual fathers."
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:48 PM   #86
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They first convince the audience that they are under attack, then tell them they are their fathers out to protect them from the attack, then they lay out their defense. I guess it works on people who don't really know what's going on.
In light of testimony from someone who was actually there (Don Rutledge), posted below in #81 and #82, and given that he and Witness Lee spoke personally on the subject, how do we know that the writers of this website aren't minions rehashing rumors promoted by their bosses? Do they really know what happened, or are they just repeating what they're being told? Were they there, like Don Rutledge? Did they talk to Lee personally?

I think ALL the facts are needed to make determinations, not just those few convenient to a story line benefiting a few.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:07 PM   #87
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Then along comes someone who makes a simple facebook post. It gets thousands of comments from current and former members alike. All the sudden, the DCP/blended find themselves having to do damage control on something that doesn't play into the typical narrative. Not only that, the entire letter is a call for justice and repentance, so all of the current members who have read it already know what is about.
There is another narrative they would resort to:

Unforgiven offenses and perceived wrongdoings

No matter how much attrition the local churches have suffered, they're no going to change for anybody.
Same ones meeting, but only older. More churchkids leaving than those who remain.
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Old 10-11-2019, 07:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Don Rutledge
Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.
Don Rutledge's account provides perhaps the only real insight into how the Daystar debacle was thrust upon the LC's. It was promoted by Lee himself, firstly to all the elders. Supposedly it was too help the gospel, the suffering workers, and the faithful saints. Then why is it, when the business collapsed, only the Lee family benefited?

What a sham! They used the podium to promote a scheme promising 35% returns. They used all the leading brothers trusted by the saints to heist this scam. Put the scripture in their hearts and then your hands in their pockets. No doubt they also had a pyramid scheme in mind -- new members investing to provide dividends for original investors -- until their house of cards came quickly crashing down.
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Old 10-11-2019, 11:59 AM   #89
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In light of testimony from someone who was actually there (Don Rutledge), posted below in #81 and #82, and given that he and Witness Lee spoke personally on the subject, how do we know that the writers of this website aren't minions rehashing rumors promoted by their bosses? Do they really know what happened, or are they just repeating what they're being told? Were they there, like Don Rutledge? Did they talk to Lee personally?

I think ALL the facts are needed to make determinations, not just those few convenient to a story line benefiting a few.
People like Don Rutledge who were actually there are the most credible sources. People who were never there are not in much of a position to question the firsthand accounts of what happened. It still remains unclear who is even behind the shearingwords.com site.

Who exactly are "the coworkers"? Are they working with DCP? Do they represent LSM? If they really want to be taken seriously, they should attach their names to their writings. They should also cite their sources instead of making unsupported claims.
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Old 10-11-2019, 12:08 PM   #90
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People like Don Rutledge who were actually there are the most credible sources. People who were never there are not in much of a position to question the firsthand accounts of what happened. It still remains unclear who is even behind the shearingwords.com site.

Who exactly are "the coworkers"? Are they working with DCP? Do they represent LSM? If they really want to be taken seriously, they should attach their names to their writings. They should also cite their sources instead of making unsupported claims.
I suspect a certain level of anonymity is built in to keep people at arms length. It can be promoted to LC members for "their benefit," but then no one has to be accountable or bothered with further inquiries. It's just sort of a nebulous "cloud of truth" they can point people to, to keep the masses appeased.
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Old 10-11-2019, 01:31 PM   #91
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I couldn't believe that Nee would do such things. Lee & sons yes. Nee, NO!
And it should be evident that he was taking care to stop anyone from pointing at his egregious behavior again by returning from his relatively brief exile in the 1940s (at the invitation of Lee) to give those messages that became Authority and Submission and denied anyone the right to make any charge against him again.

In effect, he responded to charges of sexual impropriety against him not with evidence that he was innocent, or with apologies for his failures, but with faux spiritual authority to avoid ever again answering to any man's charges. He thumbed his nose at everyone and demanded that they revere him as the most spiritual person in any room no matter his failures.
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Old 10-11-2019, 04:28 PM   #92
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I suspect a certain level of anonymity is built in to keep people at arms length. It can be promoted to LC members for "their benefit," but then no one has to be accountable or bothered with further inquiries. It's just sort of a nebulous "cloud of truth" they can point people to, to keep the masses appeased.
That makes a lot of sense. The latest "turmoil" started out with a facebook post. And I think in the eyes of LC leadership, the greatest threat to them isn't the contents of the letter but the fact that their members were not only reading, but also interacting with the comments of that post.

So it really is convenient for them to be able to redirect people to a website where any possibility of a discussion is already out of the question.
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:02 PM   #93
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That makes a lot of sense. The latest "turmoil" started out with a facebook post. And I think in the eyes of LC leadership, the greatest threat to them isn't the contents of the letter but the fact that their members were not only reading, but also interacting with the comments of that post.

So it really is convenient for them to be able to redirect people to a website where any possibility of a discussion is already out of the question.
Exactly! Shrewd thinking . . .
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:58 PM   #94
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There's a new article up on shepherdingwords.com titled "Facts Concerning Lily Hsu." Thoughts?

My main thought reading the article was "What an incomprehensible mess".

Also, "no one would ever describe this as 'shepherding' anyone".

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Old 10-12-2019, 01:58 AM   #95
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My main thought reading the article was "What an incomprehensible mess".

Also, "no one would ever describe this as 'shepherding' anyone".

Trapped
Interesting comments.

Reminded me of the website LSM/DCP developed during the Midwest quarantines called "afaithfulword." It actually had nothing to do with God's faithful word. It was all about Lee's teachings.
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Old 10-12-2019, 01:38 PM   #96
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And it should be evident that [Nee] was taking care to stop anyone from pointing at his egregious behavior again by returning from his relatively brief exile in the 1940s (at the invitation of Lee) to give those messages that became Authority and Submission and denied anyone the right to make any charge against him again.

In effect, he responded to charges of sexual impropriety against him not with evidence that he was innocent, or with apologies for his failures, but with faux spiritual authority to avoid ever again answering to any man's charges. He thumbed his nose at everyone and demanded that they revere him as the most spiritual person in any room no matter his failures.
Regardless of what actually lay behind the 'storm' or 'turmoil', it didn't produce transparency or humility; rather a doubling down on command-and-control. Just like with Lee.
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My main thought reading the article was "What an incomprehensible mess".
How is it an incomprehensible mess? In what way does it fail as argument, instead offering a sop for the True Believers? The record shows Lily Hsu was a new believer, young, impressionable, weak in faith, who subsequently renounced both God and Watchman Nee. Her decades-later memories of a show trial in 1950s China don't constitute proof, or even meaningful evidence, of Watchman Nee's culpability. Okay, fine -- that was my stated objection as well (and I'm no fan of Nee).

But what about the facts of Daystar Motor Homes? What about Don Rutledge's testimony? What about Terry Risenhoover? Bill Mallon? Don Hardy? These were principals, not bystanders. These were former insiders, who independently agree. Why does Rutledge mention Timothy Lee's impetus in starting the project, and the Shepherding Words essay doesn't? Others mentioned Timothy's role indicating the appearance of self-interest. Why do Shepherding Words author(s) only write a few facts, while studiously ignoring others? Are they interested in truth? It doesn't look like it.

Psalm 119:36 "Turn my heart toward your statutes and not toward selfish gain." If one looks at all the facts of Daystar Motor Homes, one sees indications of selfish gain, and Shepherding Words looks like diversion, or cover-up, a sop for the truly (and willfully) naive, for those who desperately wish it were so, who gave their lives for The Cause and don't want it to vanish in a puff of smoke.

Not only was Daystar a shameless money-grab by the Lee family, it was one in a series. It wasn't an anomaly but rather fit a pattern.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:16 AM   #97
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Another translation of Psalms 119.36 makes it all so clear:
"Direct my heart toward your written instructions rather than getting rich in underhanded ways."
Why was it that everyone one of Lee's business schemes started out to "benefit the impoverished gospel workers" and ended up only benefitting the Lee family?

Then when the saints felt taken advantage of, they became leprous rebels in a vast global conspiracy to undermine the ministry. I guess that's what happens when leaders become "deputy authorities" without transparency or accountability.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:27 AM   #98
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The record shows Lily Hsu was a new believer, young, impressionable, weak in faith, who subsequently renounced both God and Watchman Nee. Her decades-later memories of a show trial in 1950s China don't constitute proof, or even meaningful evidence, of Watchman Nee's culpability.
aron I think you're selling Dr. Hsu a little short here. While her backsliding after the fact is heart wrenching and disappointing, it does not make her a liar. In fact, her public admission and confession of her failures only bolsters her credibility in my view. (note: MY view) The meaningful evidence comes from the testimony of two of the girls/women that were abused at the hand of Watchman Nee. I believe Lily Hsu's testimony of their testimony. As I have previously stated on this forum, I hope and pray that God will see fit to have others who were alive at the time (and the number is getting fewer and fewer) come forward to confirm Hsu's testimony. Unfortunately, I suspect that many are still entrapped within the bowels of Communist China, or are entrapped within a Local Church system which does not allow for even the slightest notion of fault or sin to be attributed to Watchman Nee or Witness Lee. May God have mercy.

Quote:
But what about the facts of Daystar Motor Homes? . It wasn't an anomaly but rather fit a pattern.
And Watchman's indiscretions fit the pattern of sexual, psychological and spiritual abuse in the Local Church.

Let me give a quick personal testimony. I once was extremely resistant to hearing anything about, much less believing, that Watchman Nee or Witness Lee could condone or allow, much, much less participate in anything immoral or sinful. Of course the first demigod to fall was Witness. I even strongly resisted believing anything about "the fermentation of the present rebellion" until I heard the personal testimony of many trusted and esteemed brothers, including John Ingalls, who related many of the things to me personally in his living room. At that point it was not just "smoke" to be concerned with, the flames of the fire were blazing bright right before my eyes. Denial was futile.

So, to carry forth the "where there's smoke there's fire" analogy, that while I would fully admit that Dr. Hsu's book seems to be pointing to us to a lot of thick, dark smoke....I have to believe that this smoke is obscuring the raging flames of a massive inferno. We've seen too much. We've heard too much. We now know too much to think otherwise. Denial is futile. May God have mercy.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:37 AM   #99
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So with WL there were eyewitnesses to these things, which many of us respect. However, there is not the same "quality" of eyewitness accounts with Nee, right? That is of the quality of "related many things to me personally in his living room." Is that correct?
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:27 AM   #100
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Technicly Dr. Hsu is a third party witness to Nee's sexual misconduct, however she saw and heard many things, and knew these women's character and credibility to such a degree, she felt compelled to relate the incidents publicly. For the reasons I clearly stated in my post, I believe Hsu's claims are true and accurate.
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:23 AM   #101
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I even strongly resisted believing anything about "the fermentation of the present rebellion" until I heard the personal testimony of many trusted and esteemed brothers, including John Ingalls, who related many of the things to me personally in his living room. At that point it was not just "smoke" to be concerned with, the flames of the fire were blazing bright right before my eyes. Denial was futile.
For many years I was a loyal and trusting footsoldier in the Recovery. I trusted LC leaders unreservedly, more than my own parents in fact, and had no reason to question any of the historical accounts I was told. I heard WL's story of Nee's excommunication by the Church in Shanghai in 1942 many times. Lee informed us that Nee was as pure as the driven snow, and was constantly being persecuted from within and without the church.

As the story goes, someone started a rumor about Nee. The elders heard about it and then confronted Nee, asking if he was "living with another woman." Being so "pure" in heart, he said "yes," knowing that the woman living with him was his own mother. Without even investigating the actual facts, the elders then proceeded to excommunicate him, and terminate his ministry. That was the story I heard about Nee's excommunication.

Honestly folks I believed the story. I used to believe a lot of things I was taught in the Recovery. Yes, I was naive. We all were. But I suppose every one who ever lived believes a bit of hagiography about their favorite sports star, movie celebrity, religious leader, or historical figure. Some folks still believe in super heroes.

But let's think about Lee's story here. Was this all smoke as in "smokescreen" to keep the faithful from knowing the truth? Notice that Lee never put this tall tale in his biography of Nee, Seer ... Does anyone really think that those Shanghai elders could be so stupid and impulsive? They were appointed by Nee and shepherded the largest church in the movement. I'm sure they had confronted all sorts of moral "irregularities" dealing with diverse saints for years. Nee was their chief minister. Would they not prayerfully, carefully, and painstakingly examine any accusation against Nee?

Of course they would! Lee's fabrication of events on its face bears no credibility to honest scrutiny. Is not it plainly obvious that his brief fictional account was a diversion from the truth, carefully designed to quell suspicions? So, when confronted with lies, we are forced to consider what was he hiding? What should we not know? Why lie unless the truth is too nasty to confront. So, for me, whether or not Dr. Lily Hsu is completely accurate in her Memories of Nee is besides the point.
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:58 AM   #102
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aron I think you're selling Dr. Hsu a little short here. While her backsliding after the fact is heart wrenching and disappointing, it does not make her a liar. In fact, her public admission and confession of her failures only bolsters her credibility in my view. (note: MY view) The meaningful evidence comes from the testimony of two of the girls/women that were abused at the hand of Watchman Nee..
Actually we're looking at complementary aspects of the same whole. The LSM scribes want to discredit Hsu by pointing out her youth, naivete, and outsider status. I'm saying that they must lie in the bed they've made: enter Don Rutledge, enter Bill Mallon, enter Jane Anderson, enter Don Hardy, enter...
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:35 PM   #103
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Technicly Dr. Hsu is a third party witness to Nee's sexual misconduct, however she saw and heard many things, and knew these women's character and credibility to such a degree, she felt compelled to relate the incidents publicly. For the reasons I clearly stated in my post, I believe Hsu's claims are true and accurate.

I agree. Admittedly, no one can prove those incidents back then in Shanghai, but I felt she was telling the truth in her book. Another Korean brother who read the book told me the same.
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:11 AM   #104
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I have not read Dr. Hsu's account of brother Nee's activities, and I don't have any leading (or even curiosity) to do so. I do know and have spoken with some of the people who were witness to things in the USA from the 1960s forward, so I believe those accounts 100%. I know the purpose of this forum is to bring all these things into the light, so that others currently in the LC system can get a fuller picture - and maybe some kind of understanding/healing for the rest of us. But personally, I have no need to delve further (other than some sort of morbid desire to know the details of the faults of other brothers).

I choose to believe that WL repented of things in the early 1960s, as some who were with him have related. And I think this is one of the reasons the ministry was good during that time. Also, the saints were coming together in oneness for the simple enjoyment of Christ, and the Lord was moving mightily with the young people in the 60s. After the early 70s (or thereabout) things started to seriously go off the rails with the LC and LSM.

Brother Lee repented again toward the end of his life in 1997, and stated that love and acceptance of other believers was missing. I choose to belief his heart and declarations were genuine, however, those taking up the leadership of the LC after that, ignored this and continued to follow the old, dead ways of centralized command and control.

So for some, it may seem good to keep going back to dredging up the past, but for me it's a pretty dry well. If one doesn't get any watering out of Nee's or Lee's teachings (of which some are good, some not so good), then they shouldn't read those materials anymore. (personally, I almost never read any WL now and only occasionally WN) And as the writer of Hebrews exhorts us, we will be healed by coming forward, not by looking back.
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:37 AM   #105
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For those that may not have purchased the book or read it, I can cut and paste the confession section, on open forum or in PM.
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:41 AM   #106
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I have not read Dr. Hsu's account of brother Nee's activities, and I don't have any leading (or even curiosity) to do so.
(But personally, I have no need to delve further (other than some sort of morbid desire to know the details of the faults of other brothers).
If you cannot study history without a morbid motive, then you are not mature enough to learn from history nor to advise others based on it.

Imagine if the police couldn't investigate crimes because they were squeamish about the nature of those crimes. Maybe they should get work in flower shops so they don't get their sensibilities ruffled. In the meantime, SOMEBODY needs to know the facts, or else people will make their decisions based on ignorance.

No thanks. Embracing ignorance is one reason WL was able to deceive so many. Embracing ignorance is what the LR COUNTS ON.

Never again.
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:45 AM   #107
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For those that may not have purchased the book or read it, I can cut and paste the confession section, on open forum or in PM.

It's in PDF form here.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/LilyHsuBook.pdf
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:50 AM   #108
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I felt she was telling the truth in her book. Another Korean brother who read the book told me the same.
I also felt she was telling the truth: she was a naive, hero-worshipping teenager whose faith was crushed by hearing evidence in a 1950s Communist Kangaroo Court.

But my question has been, where in 1950s China did one see a person plead not guilty in court, mount a defense, produce evidence to the contrary and cross-examine witnesses, and be exonerated and freed? Chinese justice didn't work that way. So, please don't transpose their experiences on ours. Her memories may be true, but they have limited relevance at best.

But what of the memories of Don Rutledge? Was he a naive outsider? If not, why doesn't Shepherding Words listen to his testimony? Why the flip-flop?

Likewise, why are some Psalms of imprecation called "fallen human concepts" because the NT calls us to bless our enemies, whilst other similar Psalms are called "Christ defeating Satan"? Why the interpretive inconsistency? Why is Mary McDonough's book sold on LSM web site when women aren't allowed to teach? Why the double standards?

The LSM appears to be a ministry of expediency. They take a line, and then abandon it when it's no longer useful. And everyone pretends not to notice. Witness Lee said that he left his native culture on the Pacific sea-floor when he migrated to the U.S. That is patently untrue. When Minoru Chen told the elders that they should go to Linko and shovel dirt, he was channeling Lee. Why do you think he's in charge, today? When Benson Philip's and Ray Graver ran their own Kangaroo Court with Jane Anderson, who do think they represented? Again, look at their positions in the LSM hierarchy today. They knew exactly where the bread got buttered.

When I was in school, living in LC brother's house in the late '80s and early '90s, going to meetings and conferences and trainings, we were repeatedly told to go after 'typical Americans'. Why? Because the typical Americans who flooded the LC during the late '60s realized the scam they were in after Daystar, Philip Lee, Linko, Little Bankers, Young Galileans, the New Move, and so forth. They could see the fallen human culture coming through the hyper-spirituality and zeal. So they left.

Similarly, I was told to ignore the poor, the sick and weak, who could not repay in this age, and go after "good building material", aka Caucasian college students. "Don't waste your time" with the old and the weak, our FTTA trainer told us. So I left. It wasn't God. I knew nothing of Daystar and Philip Lee, but I could tell this wasn't the Bible, but a sham imposed on it.
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:24 AM   #109
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If you cannot study history without a morbid motive, then you are not mature enough to learn from history nor to advise others based on it.

Imagine if the police couldn't investigate crimes because they were squeamish about the nature of those crimes. Maybe they should get work in flower shops so they don't get their sensibilities ruffled. In the meantime, SOMEBODY needs to know the facts, or else people will make their decisions based on ignorance.

No thanks. Embracing ignorance is one reason WL was able to deceive so many. Embracing ignorance is what the LR COUNTS ON.

Never again.
Ineffective analogy I think. Of course I knew I'd catch flack on here for that observation . . . and the Lord will judge maturity in Him. Ignorance is one thing, but being obsessive about it is the other extreme and is simply a distraction from Christ IMHO. Just my perspective and speaking personally of course. (and I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, on this forum, but so be it)
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:39 AM   #110
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Ineffective analogy I think. Of course I knew I'd catch flack on here for that observation . . . and the Lord will judge maturity in Him. Ignorance is one thing, but being obsessive about it is the other extreme and is simply a distraction from Christ IMHO. Just my perspective and speaking personally of course. (and I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, on this forum, but so be it)
I think it's a great analogy.
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:32 AM   #111
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But personally, I have no need to delve further (other than some sort of morbid desire to know the details of the faults of other brothers).
Better stay away from the Old Testament. There's way too much detail about the failures of others in it.

Actually it's far safer for us to learn from other's failures that it is for us to learn from others who desire to exalt a man.
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:36 AM   #112
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In reviewing the recent discussions on this thread, I was reminded about what Dr. Hsu wrote about these matters:

From Lily Hsu's book:

Why Rake up the Old Ashes?
Many brothers and sisters at SCA witnessed the public exposure of Nee’s private life in 1956.
They clearly knew of Nee’s sexual immorality based upon the evidence. Yet, many of those who are
still alive have no interest in talking about the past. Why should we rake up the old ashes? Actually it
is far from over. Idol worship is still persistent in some of the Local Churches. The lonesome
supremacy and sectarianism are still in the flood stage. The erratic theology of delegated authority and
anti-intellectualism are still on the market.


Then, why do we have to cover it up? The issue is not whether someone likes to mention the
past; it is whether there is a need for today’s churches to learn.
The New Testament churches were
imperfect, so that they had to be reminded and advised by the past history of the Israelites. Are the
current Local Churches and its affiliates perfect and without problems? Unfortunately the Local
Churches are not easy to exercise humble reflection. Not only the Local Churches, but all of us should
learn from the tragic missteps of our forefathers. The Bible does keep the old “ashes” to remind God’s
people, generation after generation. David was forgiven, yet his misdeeds and repentance are recorded.

Samson returned to God at the end of his life, yet his failure is recorded. Balak was killed (Num. 31:8)
for his evildoing; his wayward behavior are recorded, even in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:15, Jude
11, Rev. 2:14). There are multiple examples of the success and failure of God’s people recorded in the
Bible. Then, why do we have to cover it up?

Waiting Until the Day of Judgment
If we are all waiting until God’s judgment day to deal with sin, how can the church leaders and
the congregation be kept holy? The Bible said: “Be holy, because I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:1.) History
will repeat in similar patterns, and that is the reason for this book. “Wait until the Day of Judgment”
is merely a high-sounding yet deceiving excuse
. After being briefly bailed out from his imprisonment,
Zhang Yuzhi, Nee’s major coworker, told his family clearly, “Although we used to look at SCA as the
most orthodox church; yet she was destroyed by God.” The attitude of “waiting until the Day of
Judgment” may lead to more serious consequence and judgment.

(emphasis added)
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:48 AM   #113
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If you cannot study history without a morbid motive, then you are not mature enough to learn from history nor to advise others based on it.

Imagine if the police couldn't investigate crimes because they were squeamish about the nature of those crimes. Maybe they should get work in flower shops so they don't get their sensibilities ruffled. In the meantime, SOMEBODY needs to know the facts, or else people will make their decisions based on ignorance.

No thanks. Embracing ignorance is one reason WL was able to deceive so many. Embracing ignorance is what the LR COUNTS ON. Never again.
In a real sense, the mission of this forum is to "police" the Recovery, since no one else has done so.

Not all people can do the investigative work of the police, because it is indeed messy and criminal at times within the inner workings of the LSM. There is danger also in knowing this unrighteousness, as we recently learned from brother Greg Casteel. But if no one ever does this work, then lawlessness just continues to run wild.

"Without a proper understanding of history, My people will perish." (Prov 29.18)
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:06 AM   #114
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Better stay away from the Old Testament. There's way too much detail about the failures of others in it.

Actually it's far safer for us to learn from other's failures that it is for us to learn from others who desire to exalt a man.
And I love the OT (and new) for just that reason - that it doesn't gloss over all the shenanigans of men! But that is the Word of God and not just men's view on other's failures, right?

Any way, you guys just keep on going after all that. As for me, I've seen enough.
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:18 AM   #115
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And I love the OT (and new) for just that reason - that it doesn't gloss over all the shenanigans of men! But that is the Word of God and not just men's view on other's failures, right?

Any way, you guys just keep on going after all that. As for me, I've seen enough.
Sons To Glory, you are, of course, free to read or not read whatever you like. I'm not criticizing anyone here, but you might want to rethink your position.

Do you realize that perhaps the biggest failure in the American education system is the failure to teach history, and in the absence of truthful history, today's leaders have complete liberty to rewrite history. This is what crooked leaders do, LSM included. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Perhaps this is why the oldest history book on the planet presents us with a pattern of faithful honesty, so that we can learn from the past failures. Somethings God has done He wishes us to learn from and repeat.

I did not understand what happened to the Recovery until I went back and studied Plymouth Brethren history. I believe the Lord gave me that desire. I am sure many ex-Brethren said it was a waste of time to rehash their sad history, with all the sordid details, but I'm thankful that some faithful brothers recorded it for us. Lee totally misrepresented John Darby for us. He was not a demigod, acting god, or MOTA as many thought. Likewise with Nee and Lee. Why can't we learn from both the good and the bad? We have all read about David's failures, yet we still appreciate him. Same with Peter. In my opinion, it is far more dangerous to exalt a man by hiding his sins, than it is to appreciate him despite knowing his failures.
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:25 AM   #116
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Sons To Glory, you are, of course, free to read or not read whatever you like. I'm not criticizing anyone here, but you might want to rethink your position.
Fine, and you are preaching a little to the choir here regarding knowing history in general. But no eternal profit for me, bro, and no peace to pursue LC history further. It is what it is, and this is knowledge I don't need any more of to form opinions, etc.

Besides, "He's got the whole world in His hands!" and doesn't need my help.
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:34 AM   #117
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Any reason why the last 60+ pages are all blank lines? Do you see the same lines?
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:56 AM   #118
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Any reason why the last 60+ pages are all blank lines? Do you see the same lines?
Not my copy. I'm not sure who put this up. Maybe it's been compromised?
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:17 PM   #119
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Not my copy. I'm not sure who put this up. Maybe it's been compromised?

Can you post your copy?
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:32 PM   #120
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lordsrecovery.us belongs to Steve Isitt. I would suggest that someone reach out to Steve to see what the problem is.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:04 PM   #121
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Can you post your copy?
No. Mine is a Kindle book.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:18 PM   #122
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Ok, Cal. When you get the time, could you please take a look at what is missing at the end of Steve's copy? I think it is probably footnotes and maybe some copies of Nee's letters.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:33 PM   #123
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Ok, Cal. When you get the time, could you please take a look at what is missing at the end of Steve's copy? I think it is probably footnotes and maybe some copies of Nee's letters.
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Steve's copy is missing some of the footnotes of Appendix 2. It is also missing Appendix 3, Nee's Posthumous Letters; Appendix 4, which is about two female co-workers of Nee, Li Yuanru and Want Peizhen; Appendix 5, which is on Chinese terms and acronyms; and the bibliography and index, both of which are extensive.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:28 PM   #124
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No. Mine is a Kindle book.
And Kindle only allows 'fair use' and cuts it off. I reach my limit on the Lily Hsu thread long ago. Had to resort to a copy stripped of Kindle DRM's.

I could, however, post it in entirety in any format, like MS Word, or PDF. But I don't think Untohim would want copyright coming down on him.

PMing me might get somewhere. Feel free to give it try.
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:08 PM   #125
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Default My Unforgettable Memories - Lily Hsu

Kindle $9.99
Paperback $14.50

https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta...1105076&sr=8-1

Do Lily a favor and buy her book!

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Old 10-14-2019, 08:25 PM   #126
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Witness Lee said that he left his native culture on the Pacific sea-floor when he migrated to the U.S. That is patently untrue.
Some brothers have even acted to the point that it's so palpable they think their culture is superior to mine (I'm Korean) or even the Western's. I guess this is partly because of their modern history.
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:25 PM   #127
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Honestly folks I believed the story. I used to believe a lot of things I was taught in the Recovery. Yes, I was naive. We all were. But I suppose every one who ever lived believes a bit of hagiography about their favorite sports star, movie celebrity, religious leader, or historical figure. Some folks still believe in super heroes.
Which is more believable Lee's biography or Hsu's biography? It's a simple question. I would say Hsu's biography makes Nee appear more 3 dimensional. More human.
Those who want to discredit Hsu, go ahead. What for? Because she very could have the accounts closer to the truth than brothers would want to believe.
If one takes the argument to discredit Hsu because she wasn't there, same can be said for ones who write biographies of long passed American presidents such as Andrew Jackson and John F Kennedy.
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:25 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Honestly folks I believed the story. I used to believe a lot of things I was taught in the Recovery. Yes, I was naive. We all were. But I suppose every one who ever lived believes a bit of hagiography about their favorite sports star, movie celebrity, religious leader, or historical figure. Some folks still believe in super heroes.

But let's think about Lee's story here. Was this all smoke as in "smokescreen" to keep the faithful from knowing the truth? Notice that Lee never put this tall tale in his biography of Nee, Seer ... Does anyone really think that those Shanghai elders could be so stupid and impulsive? They were appointed by Nee and shepherded the largest church in the movement. I'm sure they had confronted all sorts of moral "irregularities" dealing with diverse saints for years. Nee was their chief minister. Would they not prayerfully, carefully, and painstakingly examine any accusation against Nee?

Of course they would! Lee's fabrication of events on its face bears no credibility to honest scrutiny. Is not it plainly obvious that his brief fictional account was a diversion from the truth, carefully designed to quell suspicions? So, when confronted with lies, we are forced to consider what was he hiding? What should we not know? Why lie unless the truth is too nasty to confront. So, for me, whether or not Dr. Lily Hsu is completely accurate in her Memories of Nee is besides the point.
Which is more believable Lee's biography or Hsu's biography? It's a simple question. I would say Hsu's biography makes Nee appear more 3 dimensional. More human.
Those who want to discredit Hsu, go ahead. What for? Because she very could have the accounts closer to the truth than brothers would want to believe.
If one takes the argument to discredit Hsu because she wasn't there, same can be said for ones who write biographies of long passed American presidents such as Andrew Jackson and John F Kennedy.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:20 AM   #129
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Some brothers have even acted to the point that it's so palpable they think their culture is superior to mine (I'm Korean) or even the Western's. I guess this is partly because of their modern history.
In a way, it's turnabout as fair play for what happened 150 years ago. Western merchants, soldiers, and politicians wanted the riches of the East. So it's understandable that after a long period, this large and now economically and militarily resurgent society would assert itself. I get that.

But it's not God - it is "the way of the gentiles"; which variant is incidental. It's not the Way, and we shouldn't pretend it is. This a Chinese version of Romanism, complete with Chinese Pope Witness Lee I. They even said that when he died, the age had turned and henceforth there were to be no more spiritual giants! Talk about ancestral worship!
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:40 AM   #130
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Fine, and you are preaching a little to the choir here regarding knowing history in general. But no eternal profit for me, bro, and no peace to pursue LC history further. It is what it is, and this is knowledge I don't need any more of to form opinions, etc.
Besides, "He's got the whole world in His hands!" and doesn't need my help.
No, God doesn't need our help. However, those of us who have experienced something of this group for what it is, owe it to the next generation to speak up, that they don't similarly get sucked in. Else, what did we pass through our experience for? You have seen things that none on this forum have. You have a voice. In that regard, your witness, mine, and that of Lily Hsu all belong on the table.

Something interesting happens with multiple witnesses - patterns begin to emerge, which might not be seen otherwise. Looking at several testimonies of the treatment of nonconformity by Chinese authorities: Watchman Nee's treatment by the Chinese Communist Party and Jane Anderson's treatment by Witness Lee's Local Church are eerily similar. Charges are brought forth and immediately judgment is decreed. No defense is permitted, as a challenge to authority might disturb social order. Individuality must be sacrificed for the needs of the collective. Likewise, Watchman Nee wrote "Authority and Submission" but ultimately he had to submit to the same authoritarianism that he espoused.
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Old 10-15-2019, 05:59 AM   #131
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Reading LSM's article on Lily Hsu (note they refused to recognize her as a medical doctor) this comment was made:
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In 1951, following the entry of China into the Korean War the previous October, a widespread accusation movement was launched with the aim of expelling all foreign missionaries. Propaganda campaigns consisting of trumped up charges were carried out against these missionaries based on manufactured evidence of heinous crimes, including espionage, rape, and murder. As the missionaries left, the numbers in the local churches in China exploded. In the political mindset of the CCP leaders, this posed a threat, so on April 10, 1952, Watchman Nee was arrested and imprisoned under the guise of claims of financial crimes. Internal government documents show that PRC officials wanted to curb the spread of his work and the increase of the local churches.
What honest historian would ever connect the increase in LC's due to the departure of missionaries, as if this fact brought them great blessing?

But this has long been a complaint of mine -- Missionaries sacrificed their lives traveling to the other side of the world, and then LC leaders seeing them as evil. Talk about ungratefulness.

Perhaps the blessing came from people's hearts crying out to God to save them?
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:20 AM   #132
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Those who want to discredit Hsu, go ahead. What for? Because she very could have the accounts closer to the truth than brothers would want to believe.
I know the thread "Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr." is a lot to keep up with, and only God and Untohim knows what was deleted from it, but amrKelly, a rich Nee worshiper in England, swore to bring Hsu down, and was spending big money on it.

That goes back 5 years, and he still hasn't been able to do it.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #133
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But my question has been, where in 1950s China did one see a person plead not guilty in court, mount a defense, produce evidence to the contrary and cross-examine witnesses, and be exonerated and freed? Chinese justice didn't work that way. So, please don't transpose their experiences on ours. Her memories may be true, but they have limited relevance at best.
Excellent observation. Yet I would contend that the relevance that Dr. Hsu's testimony has for us today has nothing to do with that Communist show trial, but rather the relevance is in the dangers of God's people investing their entire lives, hopes and dreams in the person and work of a mere human being. History has shown, indeed the Bible shows us, that when we place our entire trust - with our bodies, hearts and minds, in the institutes of man, especially in an institute established and propagated by one, single man, severe damage, and even ruin, is inevitable.

Most of us have now realized that this is the dynamic that we see at work in the Local Church of Witness Lee. We couldn't see it when we were within the movement itself - all the distractions and enthrallment of being part of "the Lord's Recovery" blinded us to the stark reality of our precarious position and untenable condition. Now, with the revelations of Lily Hsu, I think we can see that the very same dynamic was at work 80+ years ago there in Mainland China, except the damage and ruin came from the person and work of Watchman Nee. May God have mercy.

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Old 10-15-2019, 08:55 AM   #134
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Excellent observation. Yet I would contend that the relevance that Dr. Hsu's testimony has for us today has nothing to do with that Communist show trial, but rather the relevance is in the dangers of God's people investing their entire lives, hopes and dreams in the person and work of a mere human being. History has shown, indeed the Bible shows us, that when we place our entire trust - with our bodies, hearts and minds, in the institutes of man, especially in an institute established and propagated by one, single man, severe damage, and even ruin, is inevitable.
And this is what we (mankind) does over and over by nature. We exalt what we see (some person) instead of the unseen God. The higher the supposed revelation, the more we tend to glorify the apparent oracle.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:52 AM   #135
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And this is what we (mankind) does over and over by nature. We exalt what we see (some person) instead of the unseen God. The higher the supposed revelation, the more we tend to glorify the apparent oracle.
Exactly, just as Apostle Paul clearly warned us about these ones, "who change the truth of God into a falsehood, and honor and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen" (Rom 1.25)
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:15 PM   #136
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Reading LSM's article on Lily Hsu .. this comment was made:"In 1951, following the entry of China into the Korean War the previous October, a widespread accusation movement was launched with the aim of expelling all foreign missionaries. Propaganda campaigns consisting of trumped up charges were carried out... In the political mindset of the CCP leaders, this posed a threat, so on April 10, 1952, Watchman Nee was arrested and imprisoned under the guise of claims of financial crimes."
Take that last sentence, and change "CCP leaders" for "Witness Lee" or "the blended brothers", and replace Watchman Nee's name with that of Jane Anderson or Titus Chu, and the sentence still makes sense. The problem with the LSM essay isn't that it's untrue but that it pertains to them as well. They can see the other actor in a political ploy (the splinter), and miss the beam. Their political mindset is cloaked in spiritual verbiage, but it is pretty obvious when you look for it.

Jesus already taught this. Satan keeps doing it as long as it works.
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:55 PM   #137
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And this is what we (mankind) does over and over by nature. We exalt what we see (some person) instead of the unseen God. The higher the supposed revelation, the more we tend to glorify the apparent oracle.
It's a fleshly need. Weak faith or ignorance needs a human in the flesh. It's 100% a need of the flesh.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:59 PM   #138
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Beginning in 1939, I listened to the preaching of Brother Nee quite often. For a period of time I attended the Wednesday evening Youth Meetings led by him. In 1948, as a young brother devoted and yearning for the Lord, a Local Church leader recommended that I attend the coworkers’ training at the Christian Family of Ministers at Guling Mountain.

The lust for power was probably the major issue in his spiritual life. For a long period of time, many brothers and sisters worshiped, even deified him. The outcome of his influence misled us toward his own conclusion that “he was the leading spiritual authority.”

As far as I can recall, from the time I knew Brother Nee until his arrest, I never saw him attend the Lord’s Table. That was certainly true in 1948, when I stayed in the Guling Training program for several months. All the sermons were given by Brother Nee, yet I never saw him attending the Lord’s Table. The Lord’s Table at Guling was led by Brother Yan Jiale. It strongly suggested a distance and a hindrance of communication between Brother Nee and the Lord for years.
(I believe this was due to his secret sin and guilt.)

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