How is Christ building His Church?

[googlelight]

He said He would.
In this time of confusion, I would love to hear how you believe He builds His Church?

I realize, that when a ministry becomes all-inclusive, this will divide the Children of God, rather than build them together in life and in love. The ministry itself will be what divides them. I have witnessed this myself. This is a great shock to me, for the very purpose of it was to help the Children of God into the word, and to bring them into fellowship with the Father, Son and The Spirit. This might be too strong, but to me it seems, in the case of the LR, Satan is actually using the ministry to the opposite of this now. It might not have been the case in the beginning, but today, it seems to me this has happened. This leads me back to my original question,

How do you believe Christ is building His church today, in a practical way?

With love
from a simple follower

[aron]

Originally Posted by googlelight

He said He would.
In this time of confusion, I would love to hear how you believe He builds His church?

Part I

I read a story today about Tullian Tchividjian, grandson of Billy Graham. He was a self-indulgent young man, then at age 21 turned to God. Graduated with a BA from Bible college 4 yr later, in 1997, mDiv in 2001, church plant in 2003, then in 2009, aged 36, used his church plant, now 650 members, as leverage and took over Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. Out of 175 candidates the board picked him to head a 2,000+ member church.

Now, how do you think this story ended?

[Nell]

Here’s another question: Do you believe He will build His church in any way other than the path he has already given? I.e.,
1. Believe in Him
2. Trust him
3. Obey his commands
4. Talk to him
5. Listen to him
6. Love the brothers
7. Assemble together
8. Pray
9. Break bread together
10. Read his word.
11. Fellowship with one another.
12. Eternal life
13. Bearing one another’s burdens

And many more...

His building plan is a great mystery so he broke it down For us. This does not assume any kind of organization. Neither does it exclude some kind of organization...formal or informal. If these items do not exist among believers, could this possibly be “the church”?

When he said “I will build my church” he didn’t give specifics, other than what he has already spoken in his word partially listed above.

If we think we have “church” nailed down, we can probably guarantee...that’s not it!

Do we really need to know “how” he will build his church?

Nell

[aron]

Part II

Tullian Tchividjian, Mark Driscoll, Todd Bentley, Jim Bakker, Watchman Nee, Jerry Falwell Jr., Ted Haggard.

Men who got too much, too soon, and when they got exposed as frauds they refused to let go, cuz you see, it was all about them.

[aron]

Part III

It is all about Jesus.

When people realise this one truth, the church gets built.

Growing up Protestant, we tended to use the NT, specifically WL's "Heart of the Divine Revelation" - Ephesians/Galatians/Colossians/Philippians, plus Romans - to prove abstract theories: Justification, Sanctification, Transformation, Redemption, Holiness, Law-keeping vs Grace, religion vs "organic faith" and so forth.

But when Jesus was there, there was no NT. There was the OT, and a person. The NT showed that the person was the OT personage called-for.. "Are you the Christ" was the question asked of John the Baptist. They would not have asked if they were not waiting.

Jesus was the Christ. He was the prophesied Son of Man, Son of David, Anointed Messiah, King of Israel whose Kingdom would have no end, and Saviour of the World. King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Look what a hash WL made of it. The Processed God and One Church Per City and God's Deputy Authority. I cited the other 'ministers' earlier to show that WL was not alone. It is actually more widespread than we realize. It is perhaps even the rule. The persons I cited were just the really obvious ones. But the errors and abuses are probably more common than we realise, and we call that "Christianity."

But at its irreducible core there's one person. Crucified, raised to glory. For me, everything rests on the gospel messages given by Peter in Acts 2, and Paul in Acts 13. The referents that I made in the earlier posts on this thread show what happened when people started adding stuff. WN and the others I mentioned weren't more evil than you and I. Remember Jesus' word in Luke 13.

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

I wasn't judging the string of failed servants, but rather showing how prevalent this is. Why did a conservative, established Reform Presbyterian Church pick 36-year-old-with-troubled-past Tchividjian? Because he had stars in his eyes: he was scion of Graham, with aspirations of self empire. He was compromised in vision and this 'vision' seduced & fooled thousands. Same with Nee, Lee, Driscoll, Falwell Jr etc. It's nearly ubiquitous - the only question is degree. By the time it gets to David Koresh shooting it out with the ATF, we realise something is very wrong. But we're so dull, and Jesus so far away, smothered by layers of abstract accretia, that we don't get it till the wall tumbles down, like those under the ruins in Siloam.

If we see this tendency, and reject it, i.e. repent, then Jesus can build his ekklesia.

[least]

Jesus said unto Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Before His death and resurrection, Jesus said 'I will build my church'.
Referring to the temple as His father's house, Jesus said 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' He spoke of the temple of his body.

Jesus died and resurrected. The gates of hell had not prevailed against him.
In three days He raised up His father's house, the temple of his body.
He has built His church. The gates of hell had not prevailed against it.
He ascended to the Father and was made Lord and Christ.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Already you(plural) are the temple of God (one temple).

Only my thoughts.
Peace to you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by least

Jesus died and resurrected. The gates of hell had not prevailed against him.
In three days He raised up His father's house, the temple of his body. He has built His church. The gates of hell had not prevailed against it.

To me, everything looks to the agony of the cross and the glory that followed. To whatever extent we look at ourselves we compromise this saving vision.

The gates of hell are defensive. Satan 'won' in Genesis 3, and has been guarding his ill-gotten 'loot' ever since. Jesus went to the cross, and kicked down the gates, and set us all free. There is nothing else. Abide in the freedom Jesus Christ bought with his blood. Anger, fear, shame, greed, selfishness, death, over.

And yes, he will build/has built his ekklesia, his body. The gates of Hades can't hold us. We are free. Witness Lee said the gates would "attack the church". What a mis-reading. The gates are toast.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by googlelight

He said He would. In this time of confusion, I would love to hear how you believe He builds His Church?

I had the same question a few years ago when I finally left TLR for good.

The answer is simply that The Lord Jesus is building His church just as he said he would. It just isn’t being done in a sensational grandiose way, nor “in life” as Witness Lee always said was the key, by people following one super-apostle.

Reread what Ephesians 4:1-16 says about how the church is built https://biblehub.com/bsb/ephesians/4.htm

Lot’s of gifted saints under Christ’s headship and Holy Spirit’s working are involved in many different ways to minister to the body so it can build itself up in love. I’ve seen it with my own eyes going on among many humble saints in every city I’ve lived in and visited, among different groups. Yes in “poor poor Christianity”!

As aron shared keeping eyes on Jesus instead of selves is huge! Yes, there are lots of failures, but lot’s of successes too, just not always so publicly seen.

I’ve stopped trying to figure it out or be responsible for a huge part of it, just let Jesus do it the way He said He would, and do my part.

I’ve also found it helps to drop Watchman Nee and Witness Lee’s (and other “pillars” they emulated) top-down version of church administration where apostles are like kings of the earth, and other serving ones are their court. That’s not the way Jesus presented servant leadership to work.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

As aron shared keeping eyes on Jesus instead of selves is huge! Yes, there are lots of failures, but lot’s of successes too, just not always so publicly seen.

I think this is the source of the failure for those of us under Lee's teachings.

We were taught to look around. We could not "see" the builded church. It's not any where there in Christianity. Move along folks, nothing to see. No "there, there," out there. Lee had defined for us what the church must look like, and we couldn't find it. Lee would tell us what it will look like.

I was in Taipei Hall1 during the excitement of the New Way. Lee was almost giddy seeing all those trainees in blue jackets and white shirts. So many trainees, all different colors and nationalities, yet all look the same -- LSM Blue. All so zealous for the ministry. This is it! Just spread this to all the LC's. Jesus will come back for Y2K. The whole world will be evangelized. Of course it will, "these are Brother Lee's statistics."

Somewhere the eyes of faith got stolen from us. Traded in for Lee's "vision" of the builded church. Instead of believing His word, we believed Lee's teaching. When Ingalls et. al. tried to warn us, he got shut down. We all went along with it. Like mushrooms in the cave, we were kept in the dark and fed manure. Be happy, "you are growing in life."

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes, it is in the realm of faith and not in the seen! I remember lamenting to a brother a while back about the condition of the church that we see - all the divisions, low testimony of life & love, etc. What he said stuck with me - "The church is just fine. Don't you think the Lord knew all that was going to happen and don't you think He has it all handled?!" This opened my eyes to see that it is in the realm of faith.

Man automatically wants to see some results - some big, outward manifestations. Some thing visible to point to and say, "See, He's clearly doing it there!" Then we either take credit or think we should jump in to help. This is the flesh.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think this is the source of the failure for those of us under Lee's teachings.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by least

Jesus said Already you(plural) are the temple of God (one temple).

Least, this portion is so eye opening. Please, forgive this possibly very stupid question, how are you assured this 'you' is plural? Please can you tell me specifically how you find that out? I think it is vital and imperative to know. I always interpreted this word to mean me, singular. What book do I need to know the original meaning in its' original language?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here’s another question: Do you believe He will build His church in any way other than the path he has already given? I.e.,
1. Believe in Him....

I have one more for the list, Nell. Love our neighbors as ourselves. In addition to love our brethren. Imagine the impact of loving our (unsaved) neighbor may have on them in the world as we know it now (more wicked and degraded than ever). Imagine the testimony that must have in their hearts. Who may turn to Jesus, simply seeing a testimony like love coming from a Christian?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, it is in the realm of faith and not in the seen! I remember lamenting to a brother a while back about the condition of the church that we see - all the divisions, low testimony of life & love, etc. What he said stuck with me - "The church is just fine. Don't you think the Lord knew all that was going to happen and don't you think He has it all handled?!" This opened my eyes to see that it is in the realm of faith.

Man automatically wants to see some results - some big, outward manifestations. Some thing visible to point to and say, "See, He's clearly doing it there!" Then we either take credit or think we should jump in to help. This is the flesh.

Stg, you just reminded me, He said, I will build my church. Our job is to believe on Him who sent Him.

[least]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

how are you assured this 'you' is plural? Please can you tell me specifically how you find that out? I think it is vital and imperative to know. I always interpreted this word to mean me, singular. What book do I need to know the original meaning in its' original language?

1 Corinthians 3:16
KJV 'ye' referring to plural 'you'.
biblehub.com is useful for me. I don't know any Greek or Hebrew and I read the various translations and commentaries.
Some translations indicate 'you' in 1Corinthians 3:16 as singular, 'a' temple of God.
There are other bible verses that indicate individauls each is a temple of God.

My understanding of 1 Corinthians 3:16 is referring to 'the' temple of God.

I read somewhere (sorry, can't find it again), that, if 'not each one is a temple of God then together cannot be the temple of God'.
Each member of the body of Chrsit has Christ dwelling in him/her; the members together is 'the' body, 'the body of Christ'.
-

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by least

1 Corinthians 3:16
KJV 'ye' referring to plural 'you'.
biblehub.com is useful for me. I don't know any Greek or Hebrew and I read the various translations and commentaries.
Some translations indicate 'you' in 1Corinthians 3:16 as singular, 'a' temple of God.
There are other bible verses that indicate individauls each is a temple of God.

My understanding of 1 Corinthians 3:16 is referring to 'the' temple of God.

I read somewhere (sorry, can't find it again), that, if 'not each one is a temple of God then together cannot be the temple of God'.
Each member of the body of Chrsit has Christ dwelling in him/her; the members together is 'the' body, 'the body of Christ'.
-

Thank you, Least. I always use biblehub but never even noticed the commentary drop down menu. Lots of stuff there. I read 6 or 10 commentaries on 1 cor 3 v16 but they didn't shed any light on the use (plural vs singular) of ye. I guess I will have to explore that website a bit more.

I first was thinking, I agree, with the statement 'if not each one is a temple of God then together cannot be the temple of God'.....then I remembered He is allowing the tares to grow up alongside the wheat, all the way until He is ready to harvest. At the harvest, the tares will be burned, the wheat gathered into His barn. I think His temple is His temple in spite of the presence of the tares. And of course, also, we believers individually are a temple of His abode.

I would love to figure out how to translate the original word with all the intricacies of meaning for my personal understanding. Do you have a particular commentary that you trust?

[least]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I would love to figure out how to translate the original word with all the intricacies of meaning for my personal understanding. Do you have a particular commentary that you trust?

"Do you have a particular commentary that you trust?" No. I don't.
And for me it's not about trust or not trust. I just read.
I was saved in a LC. All my learnings were in the LC system. I read WN, WL ... Read lots. Tried to get INTO all the mota spirituality and logics of explaining the bible and the peak ultimate consummate ONE this ONE that blah blah blah... I was all for 'the work of the ministry' ... Which of course now I say 'the ministry' is Christ's ministry, and it is real and needs no deputy authority. I can't point to a 'practical' way (tangible to our eyes) of how He is building the church. Jesus died and resurrected and the church is built. Jesus is Christ.

byHismercy, I enjoy your sharing on this forum. You outgrew the bad experience you had, and what you shared on Christ, the bible, have helped me.
Like another person on this forum, whatever I don't know I ask of God. If the father would reveal to me, then I get to know. If not, I'm at rest. I'm saved, in Christ. Praise our Lord Jesus Christ. He loves us.

And oh, pls google meaning of 'ye', 'thee', 'thou'.
Old English, used in the King James bible.

... "Knowledge puffeth up..
...but Love edifiefth.. (i.e. ^builds up^)

.. [1 Corinthians 8:1]..

..." And if any man thinketh he knoweth ANYTHING, he KNOWETH NOTHING yet as he ought to know "

.. [8:2]...

____________________________

So who can really know "God's Economy" (or God's master building plans & blueprints) as he ought to know it? [Discuss] 20 marks.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by least

"Do you have a particular commentary that you trust?" No. I don't.
And for me it's not about trust or not trust. I just read.
I was saved in a LC. All my learnings were in the LC system. I read WN, WL ... Read lots. Tried to get INTO all the mota spirituality and logics of explaining the bible and the peak ultimate consummate ONE this ONE that blah blah blah... I was all for 'the work of the ministry' ... Which of course now I say 'the ministry' is Christ's ministry, and it is real and needs no deputy authority. I can't point to a 'practical' way (tangible to our eyes) of how He is building the church. Jesus died and resurrected and the church is built. Jesus is Christ.

byHismercy, I enjoy your sharing on this forum. You outgrew the bad experience you had, and what you shared on Christ, the bible, have helped me.
Like another person on this forum, whatever I don't know I ask of God. If the father would reveal to me, then I get to know. If not, I'm at rest. I'm saved, in Christ. Praise our Lord Jesus Christ. He loves us.

And oh, pls google meaning of 'ye', 'thee', 'thou'.
Old English, used in the King James bible.

Thank you, Least. If I ever helped you, I am so glad. I am helped tremendously by the folks here on this forum. I see my portion is small, my contribution is small, but He authored faith in me and that was not for nothing.

I think I get it, now. Thee, thy, thou, thine are singular. Ye is plural. Lol, it is easier in old English.

Yes, He loves us. Because of our King, we all developed a distaste for any exaltation of any other. Because of His position. Jesus is Christ, Jesus is King, and His throne is the only valid authority for a Christian. His church will be built because He said so.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in Taipei Hall1 during the excitement of the New Way. Lee was almost giddy seeing all those trainees in blue jackets and white shirts. So many trainees, all different colors and nationalities, yet all look the same -- LSM Blue. All so zealous for the ministry. This is it! Just spread this to all the LC's. Jesus will come back for Y2K. The whole world will be evangelized. Of course it will, "these are Brother Lee's statistics."

When we were children, say 3 to 7, we treasured our toys. For children, toys provid a vital function in that they allow us to map out reality, not only as it is (perceived) but as it could be (possible) and should be (desired). In this manner, toys are a representation of the larger world, just smaller and more manageable. Now, one thing I remember is that toys were not uniform. Some dolls were cloth, some were wooden, some plastic. Same thing with toy trucks, cars, boats, planes. They occasionally were not built on the same scale, or with different materials, or different details. But to us they were still useful, even though not 'ideal'. In a perfect world, all toys would seamlessly integrate, but even if they didn't we mix-and-matched. No problem.

Now, how does this relate to Christ building his church? Christianity has many variants. Some are loud and boisterous, some quiet, and still, and restrained. The variety of interpretations and expressions is impressively (or uncomfortably) vast. Reading the posters on this forum, I notice a disparity of views and experiences. And specifically, to my original comment on this thread, with Billy Graham's grandson - clearly there were behavioural instabilities beforehand, yet the star-struck Presbyterians at Coral Ridge ignored them, and paid dearly for it. The senior pastor began to repeatedly prey on the congregation, and lie about it, and cover up, and manipulate the board. Yet they are a Christian flock - God wants to use them, and wants me to receive them. Whatever their representation of Chist Jesus is, that is what it is.

For Witness Lee, uniformity was the way to Christ. Ohio's post showed this, and many of us had similar observations. WL's representation included conformity and control. God's spirit would then sweep across the face of the earth, and the "ministry" vindicated, and Christ would reign. He probably genuinely believed this. Although I reject this representation today, having seen the damage, confusion, rancor and discouragement it produced, I still get it - these are still human beings seeking God. It's okay. No, really.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Somewhere the eyes of faith got stolen from us. Traded in for Lee's "vision" of the builded church. Instead of believing His word, we believed Lee's teaching. When Ingalls et. al. tried to warn us, he got shut down. We all went along with it. Like mushrooms in the cave, we were kept in the dark and fed manure. Be happy, "you are growing in life."

Today I continue to play, only now with ideas. I take for granted that God exists, and loves us, and sent His Son who is now raised to Glory and is Saviour of all, King of Kings. The LC wants believers to be "mushrooms in a cave" but there's a wider world, and other voices speaking of Christ, and we can look at them, and hold them up for public scrutiny. How does their "Christ" line up with the vision that I see in the biblical text? Not everyone looks like me. I'm okay with that. But it is also okay to ask, in what manner do we differ? How do we align? These are important questions. This forum is a venue for such discussions.

Originally Posted by aron

Part II

Tullian Tchividjian, Mark Driscoll, Todd Bentley, Jim Bakker, Watchman Nee, Jerry Falwell Jr., Ted Haggard.

Men who got too much, too soon, and when they got exposed as frauds they refused to let go, cuz you see, it was all about them.

The reason I mention Tchividjian and Bentley along with Nee and Lee is that by looking at multiple cases in Christianity, a theme emerges: that of one- and two-talented believers thinking that they're five-talented, and what happens to the flock when they convince people of this. We should be cautious, not only with who we are, but where we are, and who we're with. Receive others but don't always receive their ideas. Test all things. Prove what is good.

To reiterate, these cases are not of flawed 5-talented members, but of one- and two- talented ones, presuming a place not theirs. The fruit makes it clear.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Thank you, Least. I always use biblehub but never even noticed the commentary drop down menu. Lots of stuff there. I read 6 or 10 commentaries on 1 cor 3 v16 but they didn't shed any light on the use (plural vs singular) of ye. I guess I will have to explore that website a bit more.

I first was thinking, I agree, with the statement 'if not each one is a temple of God then together cannot be the temple of God'.....then I remembered He is allowing the tares to grow up alongside the wheat, all the way until He is ready to harvest. At the harvest, the tares will be burned, the wheat gathered into His barn. I think His temple is His temple in spite of the presence of the tares. And of course, also, we believers individually are a temple of His abode.

I would love to figure out how to translate the original word with all the intricacies of meaning for my personal understanding. Do you have a particular commentary that you trust?

Bible Hub also has GRK selection (here it is for the verse discussed). https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-16.htm to help those of us with poor Greek and English knowledge

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by JJ

Bible Hub also has GRK selection (here it is for the verse discussed). https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-16.htm to help those of us with poor Greek and English knowledge

Jj this did help, and I'm discovering there is so much more to biblos.com thank you, brother!

[manna-man]

Zechariah 4:6

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

If we know Him, we can spot/recognize him anywhere and in everything He is doing.

In this life we have learned/grasped/layed hold to this word called faith. This faith are the realities (As He has revealed) the works of Christ.(Mercy and Love) by His Spirit.

All is not lost!

We have fumbled as mere men but are maturing and learning daily.... yearly to walk/trust by faith.

It was a lifelong journey for Abraham and so it shall be for us.

Be encouraged!

https://youtu.be/Y9Ah7NbYF1I

[JJ]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Jj this did help, and I'm discovering there is so much more to biblos.com thank you, brother!

You’re welcome, glad it helped. I haven’t used biblos.com, I’ll check that out.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by JJ

You’re welcome, glad it helped. I haven’t used biblos.com, I’ll check that out.

I think biblos.com and bible hub are one and the same. Either name navigates me there.

[JJ]

Yes, my web browser sent me to Bible Hub when I entered biblos.com

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Now, how does this relate to Christ building his church? Christianity has many variants. Some are loud and boisterous, some quiet, and still, and restrained. The variety of interpretations and expressions is impressively (or uncomfortably) vast. Reading the posters on this forum, I notice a disparity of views and experiences. And specifically, to my original comment on this thread, with Billy Graham's grandson - clearly there were behavioural instabilities beforehand, yet the star-struck Presbyterians at Coral Ridge ignored them, and paid dearly for it. The senior pastor began to repeatedly prey on the congregation, and lie about it, and cover up, and manipulate the board. Yet they are a Christian flock - God wants to use them, and wants me to receive them. Whatever their representation of Chist Jesus is, that is what it is.

For Witness Lee, uniformity was the way to Christ. Ohio's post showed this, and many of us had similar observations. WL's representation included conformity and control. God's spirit would then sweep across the face of the earth, and the "ministry" vindicated, and Christ would reign. He probably genuinely believed this. Although I reject this representation today, having seen the damage, confusion, rancor and discouragement it produced, I still get it - these are still human beings seeking God. It's okay. No, really.

That's right! People get all kinds of ideas they think will help Christ build His church, and WL's was around some sort of cookie-cutter idea of uniformity that central command-and-control needed to impose. (And ironically, all the while, preaching about the autonomy of the local church body!)

"Thinking the same thing" is a matter of the one Spirit and can't be reproduced effectively (understatement) by a human source. I had a conversation just yesterday with one of our sharing bros about this. Here we have six brothers who rotate sharing a message on Sundays. We were talking about how one sharing bro didn't agree with another sharing bro on a particular point of scripture. But I really appreciate that this difference was okay, and didn't hinder fellowship one iota. In fact, to me it's a testimony of the oneness of the Spirit and how Christ is building His church (see Ohio, I do use that word!).

[Nell]

Originally Posted by googlelight

He said He would.
In this time of confusion, I would love to hear how you believe He builds His Church?

I realize, that when a ministry becomes all-inclusive, this will divide the Children of God, rather than build them together in life and in love. The ministry itself will be what divides them. I have witnessed this myself. This is a great shock to me, for the very purpose of it was to help the Children of God into the word, and to bring them into fellowship with the Father, Son and The Spirit. This might be too strong, but to me it seems, in the case of the LR, Satan is actually using the ministry to the opposite of this now. It might not have been the case in the beginning, but today, it seems to me this has happened. This leads me back to my original question,

How do you believe Christ is building His church today, in a practical way?

With love
from a simple follower

Another perspective.