Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Was rereading this thread - what a great discussion and back & forth regarding this great mystery of Christ and the church!

When I came to this last post by OBW (Mike), I read it a few times. Sorry Mike, but your point doesn't hold water and I can't agree that there's no connection between the two verse - there's something much more going on here than what you allude to!

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The two passages might have a connection, but that connection does not make what they are saying the same thing.

Related? Maybe or even probably.

The same? No.

Why not the same? Because the mere presence of the word "spirit" does not make it about the same thing. Neither does the reference to crying "Abba, Father" make both passages simply the same.

In the first verse, the word spirit is clearly a reference to the Holy Spirit (and the translators agree because they render it as "Spirit"), and therefore about God himself, in the Spirit, being sent into our hearts and crying out. But in the second instance, the word spirit makes an unspecific reference to something about our being without direct reference to the Spirit or Christ. It is more like a statement about our attitude, sense, feeling, etc. Of course the kind of attitude that would cry "Abba Father" does not simply arise in us from nowhere.

So there is a connection because it is our regenerated being — however you want to describe it — that has any desire or ability to call God "Father" or "Abba." And it might be that Paul simply made a similar reference in two different places in two different ways. But even if that is so, the contexts of the two passages are making different overall statements, therefore these cannot simply be presumed to be the same just because of similarities. My point was not to refuse any connection of thought, but to look at the passages in their separate contexts and see what overall statement was being made rather than just rushing to make them simply the same. Having a lot of "more of the same" is not necessarily an important (or good) thing. Instead, seeing the complex revelation of God is.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The two passages might have a connection, but that connection does not make what they are saying the same thing.

Related? Maybe or even probably.

The same? No.

Why not the same? Because the mere presence of the word "spirit" does not make it about the same thing. Neither does the reference to crying "Abba, Father" make both passages simply the same.

In the first verse, the word spirit is clearly a reference to the Holy Spirit (and the translators agree because they render it as "Spirit"), and therefore about God himself, in the Spirit, being sent into our hearts and crying out. But in the second instance, the word spirit makes an unspecific reference to something about our being without direct reference to the Spirit or Christ. It is more like a statement about our attitude, sense, feeling, etc. Of course the kind of attitude that would cry "Abba Father" does not simply arise in us from nowhere.

So there is a connection because it is our regenerated being — however you want to describe it — that has any desire or ability to call God "Father" or "Abba." And it might be that Paul simply made a similar reference in two different places in two different ways. But even if that is so, the contexts of the two passages are making different overall statements, therefore these cannot simply be presumed to be the same just because of similarities. My point was not to refuse any connection of thought, but to look at the passages in their separate contexts and see what overall statement was being made rather than just rushing to make them simply the same. Having a lot of "more of the same" is not necessarily an important (or good) thing. Instead, seeing the complex revelation of God is.

Thanks for trying to clarify, but sorry, this still still sounds like a complication . . .

In my experience, if something sounds too complicated it means one or two things: That I am making (the simplicity in Christ) overly complicated; and/or I just need to seek Him to reveal it to me. (He's been very faithful to do His part!)

[Sons to Glory!]

I read something today in a T. Austin Sparks writing and was reminded of this thread. In contrasting the old covenant of shadows and pictures with the new covenant of the substance and reality, Sparks said, "Christ is everything . . . He is the Church."

Previously in this thread, we had some good/lively discussion (weren't those were the "good ol' days"!?) about who is the head (pretty obvious) and who is the body (a "great mystery"), so to say "Christ is the Church" may be a little much for some . . .

If anyone is interested, I can post the entire page from Sparks so you can see his context.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I read something today in a T. Austin Sparks writing and was reminded of this thread. In contrasting the old covenant of shadows and pictures with the new covenant of the substance and reality, Sparks said, "Christ is everything . . . He is the Church."

Previously in this thread, we had some good/lively discussion (weren't those were the "good ol' days"!?) about who is the head (pretty obvious) and who is the body (a "great mystery"), so to say "Christ is the Church" may be a little much for some . . .

If anyone is interested, I can post the entire page from Sparks so you can see his context.

There is always a danger in saying something scripture doesn’t say “Christ is the Church”. I don’t care if it comes from T.A. Sparks. Best to go back and carefully read Colossians 3 in the Greek and start with verse 9 so verse 11 is taken in the context of the new man (anthropon, human race?) we have put on that Christ is creating in His image where Christ is all and in all (not all is Christ, which is the way Sparks takes it). And this is in contrast to the old man (human race?) we are to put off which has Greek, Jew, Barbarian, Scythian). I take this to mean that Christ is all to me and the other members of His body plus Christ is in me as well as in the other members of His body, therefore race doesn’t matter.

As many have stated very well in this thread, there is much danger in blurring the lines of who Christ is because it gets us quickly to the place of taking orders from men rather than Christ.

[JJ]

Here is the Greek Interlinear for Colossians 3 for reference:
https://biblehub.com/bib/colossians/3.htm

I realized my explanation of verse 11 took away and added words, and therefore was off. It missed the simple exhortations in verses 1-9 including “do not lie to one another”, an obvious take away. I’ve been trying to understand and apply this part of Colossians my whole Christian life, and am struggling with it.

Help, Lord Jesus and Holy Spirit! Others have a better explanation for Paul’s point here?

[JJ]

I just realized there is a key word I haven’t paid attention to here: knowledge. https://biblehub.com/greek/1922.htm.

And, verses 12-15 show what doing verses 1- 11 look like?

STG, please post all of Sparks and Freeman’s commentaries on verse 11 so I am not beating up a straw man.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

STG, please post all of Sparks and Freeman’s commentaries on verse 11 so I am not beating up a straw man.

Here's the one from Spark's devotional that I read earlier this week and commented on. Regarding Freeman's quotes, that will take more looking . . .

April 5

Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.
(Zechariah 4:6)

Does it not strike you as significant, and very impressive, that when
the veil was rent Israel was set aside? Israel had been called in to maintain
a testimony in types. Christ had come and fulfilled all the types, and being
the center of all the types, the veil, all that kept God shut off from man,
was now dealt with, and the way was open. There was no need for types
now. So the custodian of the types departs with the types. This is not the
dispensation of the types: this is the dispensation of the reality, the
dispensation of a heavenly union with a risen Lord, and of all that that
means.

Our danger is of bringing back types. The types have gone and that is
the whole message of this letter to the Hebrews. Christ is everything. The
outward order of the Old Testament is set aside, and now all that obtains is
Christ Himself. He is the Priest; you no longer have priests on earth in the
Old Testament sense. He is the Sacrifice; there is no need for any other
sacrifices. He is the Tabernacle; He is the Temple; He is the Church. What
is thc Church? It is Christ in living union with His own, that wheresoever
two or three are gathered together in His name there He is in the midst.
That is the Church. You do not build special buildings and call them "the
Church:' You do not have special organizations, religious institutions,
which you call "the Church." Believers in living union with the risen Lord
constitute the Church. This is the reality, not the figure. That is to say, His
flesh, human limitation, is done away. Now in union with Christ risen all
human limitations are transcended.

This is one of the wonders of Christ risen as a living reality. We are
brought into a realm of capacities which are more than human capacities,
where, because of Christ in us, we can do what we never could do naturally.
Our relationships are new relationships; they are with heaven. Our
resources are new resources: they are in heaven. That is why the Apostle
wrote to the Corinthians and said that God hath chosen the weak things, the
foolish things. The things which are despised, and the things which are not,
that He by them might bring to naught the wise, the mighty, the things
which are. Why did God appoint it so? Because it is not by might, nor by
power, but by His Spirit; and to show that there are powers, energies,
abilities for His own which transcend all the greatest powers and abilities
of this world.

From: The Risen Lord and the Things Which Cannot be Shaken - Chapter 4
www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/002219.html