A little background

[boughtbyJesus]

Blessings everybody,

I am a new user and am so glad to have found this discussion board.

My husband of 19 years reconnected with this group about 4 years ago.
He came across this group/ministry as a child of about 6 or 7, in the midst of his parent's marriage demise and subsequent divorce. My husband has many fond memories of communal living and eating with this group in Los Angeles (Elden Hall?) during the early to mid 70's. During this turbulent time in my husband's young life, being neglected by his parents to some extent, this group took him and his sister under their wing and fed them, clothed them and introduced them to their teachings and beliefs and took them to their meetings. This only lasted about 2 years, but it seems like the seeds were sown, so to speak, as 25 years later, as I said above, he "reconnected" with them after 25+ of no contact with this ministry or anyone associated with them, and is now a rabid believer and defender of their practices and beliefs.

Fast forward: He has now been reconnected with this ministry for about 4 years now. Initially, he went alone for a couple of years. I started to accompany him after about 2 years. I only went for about 6-7 months. From the get go, I felt that there was something not quite right, although I couldn't put my finger on it, or could even articulate it. Something just didn't sit well with me throughout all the months that I went to their Lord's Day or the family meeting on Fridays at a leading brother's house. What they said made absolutely no sense to me, but again, couldn't articulate it because although I believed in God and knew a little about the marvelous message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I had not committed myself to following him and living for him and knew literally nothing about the Bible. The only reason why I went with my husband was because my heart yearned for something I did not have and I instinctively knew that that "something" was the Lord Jesus.

So after 6-7 months I told my husband I could no longer go with him because I didn't believe in what they believed and didn't feel it was correct. His response to me was to "get out of my mind" and to "exercise my spirit" and to let Jesus come into me my saying loudly 3 times "oh Lord Jesus," all of which I felt was not genuine and a little ridiculous.

I have found a church body which genuinely and correctly teaches and handles the word of God in San Gabriel and have been attending this church for two years now. I have learned so much and am growing and loving my Saviour more and more. I am about to be baptized and this has my husband in a tizzy. He is constantly provoking me, attacking the church I attend and condemning them, judging them and just being really mean and ugly.

Although my experience seems to differ a bit in the sense that I was never a part of this group or ministry and never believed what they believe and pontificate, my husband is fully in their grip and would like to ask for some suggestions, feedback and prayers.

Thank you.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

Blessings everybody,

I am a new user and am so glad to have found this discussion board.

My husband of 19 years reconnected with this group about 4 years ago.
He came across this group/ministry as a child of about 6 or 7, in the midst of his parent's marriage demise and subsequent divorce. My husband has many fond memories of communal living and eating with this group in Los Angeles (Elden Hall?) during the early to mid 70's.

Aww.. yes.. the 70's! I was in the LC from 1975-1978/9. For many of us who lived in S Cal during the 70's and in the LC, those days were 'glorious'. Communal living was great if you were in your early 20s and single. The meetings were lively, the music lively and believe it or not, the Presence of God was there... at least it was for me. We were 'love bombed' until you 'fit in'. Then you became 'one of them'. And if you had a problem w/the message or with 'Brother Lee' or the 'elders', you kept your mouth shut. Not having ever read a bible growing up, I read it with their 'eyes'... a la Watchman Nee and 'Brother Witness Lee'.

When I left the LC, I 'snuck' out under the pretense of moving to a new locality. I might have remained as everyone in the new locality I moved to were 'open' about the LC problems. The problem was that the fellowship turned into 'b**ch' sessions. There was no real fellowship, direction or leading from the Holy Spirit what to do. We all had the LC baggage. So after a few years, the church there dissolved and everyone went their separate ways.

It was scary for me because while I did not like what the LC had become the LC had grabbed hold of my thinking. I was afraid to fellowship with non LC Christians especially the Pentecostals!

So I gravitated to the 'world' instead. Hmmm... after hitting rock bottom in 2003/4, I re committed my life to the Lord. I did not go to 'church' until 2005 after I moved back to my home town in Tx where I grew up.

But while I was attending 'church', I decided to check out the LC meetings here in town. I wondered if God did not want me to return to the LC after being away some 30 yrs. So I attended some meetings and YIKES! The 'flavor' seemed familiar but it was dead and AWFUL!!
They tried to shove those HMRV or whatever they call them down my throat. They emphasized me to read the FOOTNOTES from the recovery version of their bible. They were 'prophesying' after the message given instead of 'testifying' and they used little bells to stop a person from 'prophesying' too long. They had 'blended brothers' instead of Lee who had died long ago.

But yeah.... there was a strange pull for me to go back after umpteen years of me having left it. Your husband got sucked back in because he remembered the love bombing he had as a youngster.

I think what your husband is looking for deep down is: a city which hath foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God. (Hebrews 11:10)

When I hear stories like yours, I often think of John10:10.. Satan is a thief out to steal, kill and destroy marriages, families, relationships, friends, and even nations.

It may be hard to believe that Jesus came that we would have ABUNDANT LIFE. But He did. And His Promise is that NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST US WILL PROSPER..and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall show to be in the wrong. This [peace, righteousness, security, triumph over opposition] is the heritage of the servants of the Lord [those in whom the ideal Servant of the Lord is reproduced]; this is the righteousness or the vindication which they obtain from Me [this is that which I impart to them as their justification], says the Lord. (Isaiah 54:17 - amplified)

During this turbulent time in my husband's young life, being neglected by his parents to some extent, this group took him and his sister under their wing and fed them, clothed them and introduced them to their teachings and beliefs and took them to their meetings.

He remembers the 'love bombing' he received.

This only lasted about 2 years, but it seems like the seeds were sown,

They sure were....

so to speak, as 25 years later, as I said above, he "reconnected" with them after 25+ of no contact with this ministry or anyone associated with them, and is now a rabid believer and defender of their practices and beliefs.

You know what has helped me to stay 'connected'... is my relationship with my CREATOR: JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SPIRIT AND OUR FATHER GOD.

If I may suggest... keep pointing him to the LORD JESUS. Love Him with God's Love. Pray he grow nearer and dearer to the Lord. Pray the Holy Spirit reveals the TRUTH that is Jesus to him. Try not to criticize or argue with him. He will only become a more rabid believer of the LC and think they are 'right'.

One thing I was taught and well made aware of during my time in the LC back in the 70's is the Power of the Blood of Jesus. I don't know if they mention the Precious Blood of the Lamb anymore. But if your husband will agree with you in prayer, you might suggest you both pray together for the Lord to cover your marriage and each other in His Precious Blood. If he is not willing to pray with you then you pray over your marriage.

Remember... SATAN is out to steal, kill and destroy...your marriage. But God wants and will bless your marriage as you pray for your husband and your marriage.

That...from a single woman of God.

Abundant Blessings to you !
Carol G

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

So after 6-7 months I told my husband I could no longer go with him because I didn't believe in what they believed and didn't feel it was correct. His response to me was to "get out of my mind" and to "exercise my spirit" and to let Jesus come into me my saying loudly 3 times "oh Lord Jesus," all of which I felt was not genuine and a little ridiculous.

I don't believe we were created to be mindless, but given free choice and will where to set our mind. This is something we find again and again in Paul's Epistles.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16

Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
Colossians 3:2

[UntoHim]

Welcome to the Forum boughtbyJesus!

Thank you so much for having the courage to come here and open up to a bunch of strangers, I know it couldn't have been easy. There are a number of Forum members who will be praying for you, and in time I'm sure some helpful suggestions will be coming your way.

[boughtbyJesus]

Thank you so much!

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Hi, boughtbyJesus,

Since you didn't tell us which church you are attending now, I'm going to hazard a guess based on some clues you provided. I may be completely off-base but it seems that you are now attending an evangelical church that is more or less Calvinistic ("the marvelous message of the gospel of Jesus Christ" is probably not at the tip of the mainline tongue). I'm also guessing that your pastor likes expository preaching. Beyond that I cannot even speculate. I'm also assuming that your husband did not attend any church regularly before reconnecting with the LC.

An LC person thinks that the LC is superior for a variety of reasons. Find out what that reason is and it'll be much easier.

1) If he thinks that LC is superior because it does not have a clergy-laity system, tell him about your CG meetings. Attend a CG that requires one to read ahead and has a tradition of sharing where the leader is more a facilitator than a teacher. At home, in his presence, prepare heavily for the sharing session. Highlight and take profuse notes of the CG material. Tell him all about it when it's timely.

2) If he thinks that LC has superior theology (he calls it "truth"), you need to know what is his pet theology. If you are attending the kind of church that I think you are, there are quite a lot of resources you can use. So depending on what theological topic he is on about, I can recommend different books. Do a book swap (you read some Witness Lee, he reads some of your books). At any rate, he's probably following the Holy Word for Morning Revival (HWMR). Be very selective with the books you read. There are many "Christian" books out there that reinforces his stereotypes.

3) If he thinks that non-LC people do not know the Bible or not serious about it or reads from an inferior translation, I'd recommend you to buy the ESV Study Bible. There are various editions of the ESV Study Bible, find the one that more or less matches his Recovery Version in terms of size. Get the hard cover edition. All LC people are impressed with people who handles the word of God well. In fact, they'll actually be surprised that anyone outside of LC can do so.

4) Do not talk to him as if LC is a cult from which he must be rescued. Do not even think that way. It is most certainly not a cult and LC members are typically genuine born-again Christians who loves Jesus and are loved by God. However, they are an ultra-exclusive group and many don't even know what that means. Just simply and genuinely clueless.

5) If you hear him start talking about "ground of oneness" and how divided Christianity is, don't start a church war. At least, not yet. Wait for him to use the word "denominations". The "local ground of oneness" and "denominations" speech is a package deal but wait until he uses both terminologies. Acknowledge the various differences among Christian denominations - make sure both of you understand how different they are. Put them into categories. Who are the ones who practice infant baptism, who are the ones who don't. Who speaks in tongues, who doesn't, etc. He'd be happy to discuss this with you. THEN wait for a time when he start saying things like, "Christianity is..." and make sweeping general statements about it, especially stuffs that are not true about the church you are attending. Gently remind him the very definition of "denomination" -- differences. For example, when he says, "What I don't like about Christianity/denominations is the clergy-laity system", remind him that not all denominations have a clergy-laity system.

6) Agree with him that all Christians in a locality is part of the church in that locality. Agree that you are part of the church in San Gabriel. In fact, force him to acknowledge that all regenerated Christians in San Gabriel are in the church in San Gabriel. Use Watchman Nee's book "Assembly Life" or "The Normal Christian Church Life" where he has chapters/sections devoted to the boundary of a local church being the boundary of the city. Having established that "truth", hold him accountable each time he reduces "the church in San Gabriel" or "local church" to just his LC community. This is inevitable and an intractable problem for the LC. This is the result of inheriting an extremely inclusive ideal (all Christians here are part of the church in San Gabriel) and an extremely exclusive practice of assuming that only those who meet at 615 W Santa Anita St. San Gabriel, CA 91776 is the church in San Gabriel.

7) Learn the lingo. You may be using the same words and they actually mean different things. You say "service", he says "meeting". You say "ministry", he says "service". You have no equivalent to his use of the word "ministry" or worse "the ministry". It just means Witness Lee's books that are published by Living Stream Ministry.

8) Love on him. Human beings are social creatures who define themselves by defining others. The sharper one is able to define the "other", the clearer the social boundaries and the more ingrain one's own social identity becomes. Witness Lee did a fantastic job in sharpening the distinctions. Your job is to blur those boundaries with love. Jesus Christ is your best example when he crossed all Jewish social boundaries (Mark 4:35-5:20; Mark 7:31-37). The first time Jesus crossed over (yes, Mark used the term "cross over" on purpose to highlight the crossing of social boundaries) to Decapolis, a Gentile area, he was asked to leave. But he tasked the demonic man he healed to preach the gospel in Decapolis (Mark 5:18-20). The second time Jesus visited Decapolis (Mark 7:31-37), there was a crowd this time and they want Him to heal the deaf man. The miracles of feeding the 5000 (Mark 6:30-44) was done in Jewish land while the miracles of feeding the 4000 (Mark 8:1-9) was in Gentile land. BLUR THE DISTINCTIONS WITH LOVE.

9) Above all, pray. Also, pray together for family and friends. Don't pray about church practices yet but rather pray as a Christian couple. Pray for that couple from the LC he tells you about. Ask him to pray for that kid with rashes in your church.

[boughtbyJesus]

Your guesses were spot on. I have no problem saying I attend San Gabriel Community Church. Although I love my husband and know he loves me too, at this point our relationship has become very strained and we cannot even begin to speak about God or the Bible before our discussions become very heated.

I am praying to the Lord that he give me wisdom and guidance in dealing with and respond to my husband. I realize I cannot change him or what he believes, that is not my job nor is it something I can accomplish. Only the Lord can speak to his heart and work in it, in His time and in His way.

I must admit however, that this is much easier said than done. I consider myself a relatively new believer, and I am just growing in my faith, knowledge and love for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who accomplished it all on my behalf and who died in my place.

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

Your guesses were spot on. I have no problem saying I attend San Gabriel Community Church. Although I love my husband and know he loves me too, at this point our relationship has become very strained and we cannot even begin to speak about God or the Bible before our discussions become very heated.

I am praying to the Lord that he give me wisdom and guidance in dealing with and respond to my husband. I realize I cannot change him or what he believes, that is not my job nor is it something I can accomplish. Only the Lord can speak to his heart and work in it, in His time and in His way.

I must admit however, that this is much easier said than done. I consider myself a relatively new believer, and I am just growing in my faith, knowledge and love for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who accomplished it all on my behalf and who died in my place.

Consider points 3, 8 and 9. Don't make getting him out the goal. Avoid theology. Find opportunities for him to pray for you instead. Get him to pray for specific things like health, children, challenges, work, nasty bosses, etc.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

Your guesses were spot on. I have no problem saying I attend San Gabriel Community Church. Although I love my husband and know he loves me too, at this point our relationship has become very strained and we cannot even begin to speak about God or the Bible before our discussions become very heated.

I am praying to the Lord that he give me wisdom and guidance in dealing with and respond to my husband. I realize I cannot change him or what he believes, that is not my job nor is it something I can accomplish. Only the Lord can speak to his heart and work in it, in His time and in His way.

I must admit however, that this is much easier said than done. I consider myself a relatively new believer, and I am just growing in my faith, knowledge and love for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who accomplished it all on my behalf and who died in my place.

Your testimony reminded me that the LC causes a great deal of estrangement from family members. My wife was involved at the time I was so that was not a problem but the LC caused a great deal of estrangement from other family members such as my parents, siblings etc. All we can offer you is some advice as some have already done and our prayers. Either he has to burn out which is possible or he has to develop some toleration for what you believe which is probably unlikely.

Here is one crazy idea I have (with trepidation) if this situation continues:
Ask him to meet with you and the elders at his church but you would like to bring along a sister from your church (a strong sister from your church--I only say this because you have indicated you are new to the faith) --- explain to the elders that you love your husband and you love the Lord but you can't even discuss the Bible or the Lord with your husband without getting into problems and you are looking for answers to resolve this issue in your marriage. I would suspect that the elders will try and lay a heavy trip on you regarding obeying your husband but if you stand your ground that you are not comfortable with attending the LC for reasons you have expressed on this forum. The reverse is also possible---he meeting with you and your pastor? but I doubt that he would be willing to meet with him.
Another idea:
Seek Christian counseling

We are all brainstorming here so hopefully you can garner some help from the ideas expressed in your situation.

Take care...

[Dave]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I am praying to the Lord that he give me wisdom and guidance in dealing with and respond to my husband. I realize I cannot change him or what he believes, that is not my job nor is it something I can accomplish. Only the Lord can speak to his heart and work in it, in His time and in His way.

I must admit however, that this is much easier said than done. I consider myself a relatively new believer, and I am just growing in my faith, knowledge and love for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who accomplished it all on my behalf and who died in my place.

Although there has been some great advice on this forum I am sure you have considerable support and prayers from your community church. Also, with all the advice offered on this forum there is prayer for you and your situation as well. It's a little difficult to go it on your own. Take care.

[aron]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

No offense taken, and yes, I absolutely love my husband!

You are in a good place: you love God, and you love your husband. My counsel would be never to let yourself get frightened, angry, or discouraged. It is a journey. Praise God for His sovereignty; His arm is not so short that it cannot save (Isa. 59:1). Be at peace with all men, especially your husband! God can touch anyone's heart. God can do anything.

Ephesians 3:20 (Message Bible) God can do anything, you know - far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams! He does it not by pushing us around but by working within us, his Spirit deeply and gently within us.