"That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS

kisstheson · 08-11-2008, 07:23 PM

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One".

I envision this thread to be a sort of "blog", containing my thoughts, reflections, and meditations as I read through these 42 messages spoken by TAS, interspersed with comments and questions from you dear ones.

A rich nugget in the book's introduction concerns dear brother TAS's realization that "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place." TAS knew that a great cost is required from all those who would participate in allowing the Lord His right to come into His full place. TAS knew that he himself and his ministry must never become such an important issue to the believers that they become a device used by the enemy to divide and destroy God's people, and that he and his ministry must never become something that competes with the Lord Jesus for His full place. TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."

What a blessed beginning!

Ohio · 08-11-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One".

My first reaction is shock. Whoa ... wait a minute, folks.

I'm not a TAS scholar by any means, in fact, I know next to nothing about him, but I was told repeatedly by WL for many years, that TAS violated "God's government" by speaking against "the ground' in Taipei during the 50's, causing a terrible rebellion.

I suppose my real question is this: did the anointing of the Spirit leave TAS as I have been made to believe?

YP0534 · 08-12-2008, 03:35 AM

I'm no TAS scholar either, Ohio, but my recent impression has been that TAS had a balancing word for the exclusive tendancies of the Local Church which Lee rejected at the time. In October 1984, Lee settled upon blaming TAS for all the decline in the localities over all the ensuing years, especially in Taiwan.

The report that I read was that TAS wanted every gathering of believers in a locality be be considered "a" church while WL wanted only a proper gathering, which should be called "the" church. Seems like neither of them precisely got it.

For Lee, the proof of the annointing was the increase, which happened for him but apparently not so much for TAS. I don't agree with that, though, because it seems pretty clear that the genuine increase comes from the genuine one accord. Much of Lee's increase had mostly to do with his organizational skills.

PS: I always appreciated the background discussions to be found here http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=38345

Ohio · 08-12-2008, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

I'm no TAS scholar either, Ohio, but my recent impression has been that TAS had a balancing word for the exclusive tendancies of the Local Church which Lee rejected at the time. In October 1984, Lee settled upon blaming TAS for all the decline in the localities over all the ensuing years, especially in Taiwan.

I do remember that. WL talked about Taipei history. The beginning was glorious hundredfold increase in 5 years. Then TAS ruined it all, and WL came to the USA. Now he was going back to Taipei. He needed a person to blame for all the problems there.

TC had a book written about TAS. Has anyone read that?

YP0534 · 08-12-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do remember that. WL talked about Taipei history. The beginning was glorious hundredfold increase in 5 years. Then TAS ruined it all, and WL came to the USA. Now he was going back to Taipei. He needed a person to blame for all the problems there.

Honestly, it's probably a little harsh to say he needed a scapegoat (although I myself have said it.) I think this is just the way he saw it and when I see it through his eyes, as I was trained at one point to do, I can see how he came to that conclusion and it makes perfect sense in all the right ways.

EXCEPT one.

Oneness.

Rather than contend for the oneness of the Spirit, Lee just decided to cut TAS off to preserve his own concept of oneness. In Lee's mind, the damage was already done, however, and it would take a great work of God to repair the damage. Lee never could see how he himself had been divisive over the very issue of oneness - the ground of locality.

Those brothers in the Local Church today have the same blindness and they will condemn anyone who speaks differently about their blindness. They just keep insisting that we all must see it their way. The thing is, the folks around here, we actually have seen it their way and, at least some of us, can now see further than that. I'd say from what I've read about this event that TAS was probably a little off doctrinally but TAS was more interested in recognizing and promoting the oneness of the believers whereas Lee was more concerned with the oneness of the doctrine and a practical oneness based upon that.

Which side was more likely to produce the Lord's intended results in the long run? I'm not sure I can say but it's certainly not as easy as just saying to stick with "the ministry"...

kisstheson · 08-12-2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do remember that. WL talked about Taipei history. The beginning was glorious hundredfold increase in 5 years. Then TAS ruined it all, and WL came to the USA. Now he was going back to Taipei. He needed a person to blame for all the problems there.

TC had a book written about TAS. Has anyone read that?

Hello dear brothers Ohio and YP0534,

Thank you for your thoughts on TAS and Lee. And to think that I was afraid that this thread was going to languish in an obscure corner of cyber-space! It really does appear that Lee's decision to not co-work with TAS raises some very, very, important issues. I personally believe that this decision by Lee was a big step toward the LC eventually becoming exclusively "of Lee". It took several decades more to advance to where it is today, but a big step in the wrong direction was taken back in the late 1950's/early 1960's in the events related to TAS.

Just to head off some criticism that I received over on "that other forum", I do not believe that TAS was "the minister of the age" during his lifetime. I am most definitely not looking to replace one "minister of the age" with another. If not "the minister of the age" then what TAS? A fallible, but very gifted, minister of Christ whose portion really was rather unique and whose portion groups like the LC ignore to their own detriment and loss.

I have to get back to work, but one more quick comment: TC's son-in-law, Rex Beck, did write a biography of TAS. You can order a copy of it (here). The book is not based upon first-hand experience with TAS, but is based upon some interviews with dear ones who knew TAS and upon the "Letters from the Editor" that TAS always included in his monthly "A Witness and a Testimony" magazine. TAS was very open and transparent in these "Letters from the Editor" and dear brother Beck was able to learn quite a lot about TAS this way. The book is essential reading for anyone who desires to read a presentation of TAS's life story from something other than the official LSM viewpoint.

OBW · 08-12-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

EXCEPT one.

Oneness.

Talk about getting to the heart of the matter!

Well said.

kisstheson · 08-12-2008, 07:21 PM

Before I begin to consider the actual contents of the 42 messages contained in "That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One", I should mention one thing that is very striking about these two volumes - like me, you can read all 42 messages and still not know who is the audience to which TAS was speaking. All you know is that they are dear brothers and sisters in Christ in Manila, the Philippines.

I guess I am too naive for my own good, but it took three external sources - Rex Beck's biography of TAS, Herald Hsu's testimony, and the video posted by "the Church in Manila" on youtube.com - for the light to dawn that TAS was speaking to those dear ones who were "on the other side of the fault line" of the terrible split that took place in the LC in Manila back in 1961. The details of any division amongst God's people are always distasteful, so let this summary suffice: The LC in Manila had willingly and enthusiastically "handed over" their church to WL and in such an unscriptural situation things went from bad to worse. When the smoke cleared, two of WN's co-workers, WL and Simon Meek, had divided from one another and the LC in Manila was split into two irreconcilable parties. It was a very tense situation. Ugly stuff.

Two of the leading brothers, Simon Meek and Wu Ren-Jie, invited Herald Hsu to come to Manila and almost immediately dear brother Herald asked the other brothers to send a letter of invitation to TAS. Waiting on the Lord for a clear sense that the time was right, TAS waited almost two full years before arriving in Manila in late January of 1964. The amazing thing is that, given his own history with WL, TAS could have easily seized upon this major disaster in the LC and really attacked WL, but he did not. From Message 1 to Message 42, all the speaking is focused on Christ, our experience of Christ, our growth in Christ, and the Father's delight in Christ. Completely absent are any mean-spiritedness, animosity, or self-vindication by TAS. Lee and the terrible split are never made an issue. Instead, Christ alone is the focus, Christ alone is exalted and Christ is given His rightful place, which is Head over all and All in all. Now that I know the black background and I am reading through these messages for the second time, I have to appreciate not only the words TAS spoke, but even more, the words TAS did NOT speak!!

djohnson · 08-12-2008, 08:38 PM

What was the problem between Simon Meek and Lee?

YP0534 · 08-12-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

The amazing thing is that, given his own history with WL, TAS could have easily seized upon this major disaster in the LC and really attacked WL, but he did not. From Message 1 to Message 42, all the speaking is focused on Christ, our experience of Christ, our growth in Christ, and the Father's delight in Christ. Completely absent are any mean-spiritedness, animosity, or self-vindication by TAS. Lee and the terrible split are never made an issue. Instead, Christ alone is the focus, Christ alone is exalted and Christ is given His rightful place, which is Head over all and All in all. Now that I know the black background and I am reading through these messages for the second time, I have to appreciate not only the words TAS spoke, but even more, the words TAS did NOT speak!!

And this, which you uplift, would obviously be dismissed as being too much on the "spiritual" side and not nearly enough on the "practical" side.

"Practical" apparently being a synonym for "divisive"...

aron · 08-13-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

The amazing thing is that, given his own history with WL, TAS could have easily seized upon this major disaster in the LC and really attacked WL, but he did not.

Good words for all of us. As posters we are ostensibly "opposers", but I for one have not the intention to "attack", or oppose. I merely want to continue following Jesus. At one point I became clear that being lockstep with Lee et al was deviating from the flow out of the throne, so I began to seek the flow apart from Central Headquaters directives in Anaheim. But I don't want to react to LSM. I want to follow God.

My impression of kts' post is that TAS didn't react, but acted. The first is Satan, the second is God. Big difference. Thanks kisstheson for pointing this out. It is an encouragement to me! Peace, and blessings to your house.

kisstheson · 08-14-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

And this, which you uplift, would obviously be dismissed as being too much on the "spiritual" side and not nearly enough on the "practical" side.

"Practical" apparently being a synonym for "divisive"...

I hear what you are saying, dear brother YP0534. Without overly exalting TAS, his "spiritual" approach is ultimately the most "practical" because it removes human hands and human efforts from the work of God and allows God Himself to come into the situation. ("Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman keeps awake in vain." (Psalm 127:1))

"Turning the other cheek" is obviously the Scriptual solution, but it strikes me very deeply as being the best course of action since it first of all deals with our natural desire to retaliate, and secondly it allows the Spirit of God the freedom to come into the situation and do whatever He wants to do.

When our dear brothers at LSM try so hard to be "practical" with their lawsuits, quarantines, and "attack pack" booklets, they operate in the realm of "the arm of the flesh" and all their vaunted human effort ends up being devoid of the Spirit and being, just like you said, divisive. May God be merciful to them and bring them back to the bearing of the cross.

May God have mercy on us all.

kisstheson · 08-14-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Good words for all of us. As posters we are ostensibly "opposers", but I for one have not the intention to "attack", or oppose. I merely want to continue following Jesus. At one point I became clear that being lockstep with Lee et al was deviating from the flow out of the throne, so I began to seek the flow apart from Central Headquaters directives in Anaheim. But I don't want to react to LSM. I want to follow God.

My impression of kts' post is that TAS didn't react, but acted. The first is Satan, the second is God. Big difference. Thanks kisstheson for pointing this out. It is an encouragement to me! Peace, and blessings to your house.

Amen, dear brother Aron. I too have no intention to react to LSM - I want to follow God!

That seems to be a common theme in all our testimonies here. One day, we all realized that the speaking from the throne and the speaking from Central Headquarters in Anaheim were at odds. For a time, I think we all tried to stifle and suppress the Lord's speaking in our conscience; but, praise Him!, one day He won and despite the outward hardships, He gave us the grace to follow Him outside of the LC/LSM "camp". How He longs to bring us all back to the true freedom and simplicity that is in Christ!

You said it much better then I could, dear brother. Without overly exalting TAS, in these 42 messages spoken in Manila TAS was truly "acting" for God by speaking Christ, and he was most definitely not "reacting" to Lee. There surely is a big difference between the two! If TAS had merely been "reacting to Lee", his speaking would not have the sweet anointing that is obviously there.

kisstheson · 08-15-2008, 02:47 PM

OK, dear ones. I have really enjoyed this “preliminary” fellowship.

Now, I would like to begin to dig into the actual messages in TAS’s two-volume set That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One, starting, of course, with message one.

TAS begins by saying these messages will not be teachings based upon his study of certain subjects; rather, they will be speakings based upon deep experiences “in the school of the Lord”. He wanted the audience to face up to some very practical issues in their walks with the Lord. He knew their rich background, and his desire was to build upon all the teachings they had heard about the purpose of God and bring them into an experiential knowledge of the ways of God. Not just a knowing of the works of God, but a real learning of the ways of God. There was one thing TAS had deeply, experientally, learned over the years and which he desired to impart to these dear ones in Manila – the ways of God are not the ways of the natural man.

An excerpt from Message One:

Quote:

“God has a way, not only an end; and it is very important to know the ways of God as well as the end of God. If there is one thing that we have learned more than another thing in God’s school, it is this. God’s ways are very different from our ways . . . You just cannot say, ‘I know the Lord wants such and such a thing done, and therefore, I am going to do it’ . . . I think the Lord wants us to learn something of His ways in these days together – to learn the spiritual laws which govern the purpose of God.”

kisstheson · 08-16-2008, 07:58 AM

Here is something else that really touched me from Message One of “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One”: The brothers in Manila began to send invitations to TAS to come to Manila starting very early in 1962 (the terrible church split in Manila took place in 1961). As TAS earnestly sought the Lord regarding if, and when, he should travel to Manila, for a long time the leading from the Lord was: “No. Not Yet.” TAS had asked the Lord to speak to him through His Word regarding Manila. Finally, one day, as TAS was reading Isaiah chapter 52, he had a real "rhema" experience of Isaiah 52:12b, and he knew this was the Lord’s direct word to him regarding Manila: “For the LORD will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.” Brother TAS knew this meant that the Lord was already in Manila, brooding over the situation there, and that the Lord would fully take care of all the practical matters in London while TAS was gone.

(Here is something encouraging for the sisters: The Lord gave TAS’s wife a "rhema" word as well, just for her encouragement regarding Manila.)

I am touched by this matter for at least two reasons. First of all, this is one example among many which shows that the presence of the Lord did not completely leave TAS from 1957 onwards. TAS certainly does not boast, but he mentions little experiences like this between him and the Lord many times during these messages. There was definitely a sweet, intimate, fellowship between him and Christ that lasted right up until his death in 1971. Having the presence of the Lord, both individually and corporately, is a major point in these messages. When one considers all this, along with the obvious anointing that is on these messages, the traditional LC mythology falls flat. The traditional LC account maintains that TAS permanently lost both the presence of the Lord and the anointing for his ministry when he “refused the way of the Spirit” by disagreeing with WL over the doctrine of locality. TAS’s own words prove otherwise. His walk with the Lord and his ministry both deepened during the course of the 1960’s and into the early 1970’s.

Secondly, the fact that TAS waited two years to come to Manila, even though the group in Manila was obviously in an extremely tough situation, is to me a really precious lesson, especially for all the dear ones in the GLA today. TAS himself said that if he had come immediately when he was first invited “something very important might have been lost for two years.” While a co-worker of TAS, C. R. Golsworthy (and his wife) came and offered some help, I believe that the “something very important” that the Lord did not want TAS to interfere with was the precious opportunity for these dear suffering brothers and sisters in Manila to find Christ in a real way for themselves. No more second-hand Christ from the “minister of the age”. No more second-hand Christ from headquarters. These ones were given the rare privilege of finding Christ and knowing Christ by faith, and faith alone. Yes, just faith. “Naked” faith. No human crutches. No man-made substitutes. This can sound scary until we remember that by faith the Lord is always with us while we walk through the valley of the shadow of darkness. In my heart I believe that the GLA is in such a privileged position today. May the Lord continue to be so gracious to those in the GLA as they learn once again to follow the Lamb for themselves. You dear ones in the GLA are His beloved sheep and He has promised that you can hear His voice and that the voice of another you will not follow. Don’t be too quick to look to any man to “rescue” you from this unique opportunity to regain your simplicity in Christ!

When the time was right, TAS’s speaking became an incredibly rich source of blessing for these dear ones. As Herald Hsu states in his testimony: “TAS held two special conferences and delivered 42 messages, leading us and the whole body of Christ into spiritual and heavenly realms.” Praise the Lord that TAS did not spoil this rich blessing by coming to Manila too soon!

kisstheson · 08-17-2008, 08:47 AM

A quick intermission before I begin to consider Message Two of “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One” by TAS:

I just noticed the "Acknowledgments" section of dear brother Rex Beck's book Shaped by Vision - A Biography of T. Austin Sparks. There are some names there which should be familiar to all of us here. Peter Debelak's father, Chuck Debelak, is acknowledged for "helpful conversations and emails". Our own dear brother Norm is acknowledged for "editorial emendations".

kisstheson · 08-18-2008, 12:12 PM

Well, TAS didn’t waste any time getting to the real heart of his burden for the brothers and sister in Manila! Message Two of “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One” is entitled “That They May Be In Us” and the subject of this message is very profound - living in God. As is the case with virtually all of TAS’s ministry, this message is best taken is small chunks, stopping often to meditate and reflect on the written words in the Lord’s presence.

TAS is desperately burdened that his hearers would learn what it means to live in God in their daily experience.

To make this matter of living in God more practical, TAS states (pp. 20, 21-22):

Quote:

“Jesus says, 'Abide in Me, as I abide in the Father.' You abide in Me, by that He means you get everything from Me, as I get everything from the Father . . . I have tried to lay the most important law of spiritual life. I just beseech you, seek to have your life in God, not in things, not in people, not in places, not in circumstances, not in arguments, not in human intelligence, but in God. God's thoughts are different from ours. 'Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding' (Proverbs 3:5). We have been brought by resurrection into a return INTO God.”

kisstheson · 08-18-2008, 02:07 PM

Dear ones, the more I “chew” on TAS’s word that “Abiding In Christ means that we get everything from Him”, the more helpful it becomes. "Chewing" on this word makes me more and more aware of a deep need to bring all situations to Him in order to seek Him for His leading, His speaking, His strengthening. Of course, most of the time when I stop and bring a situation to Him, it seems that the heavens are ”as brass” and no direct answer comes. That is OK - the very act of stopping my own doing and seeking His face is what is important. After all, “We walk by faith and not by sight”. Surely our dear Lord uses the stopping of ourselves and the seeking of Him to keep us living in Him as much as possible.

TAS relates all the great themes of the NT to this matter of our being in God and our living in God:

The meaning of Christ’s Crucifixion? That Christ willingly went out from the presence of God to save all those who were separated from God and who had no life in God.
The result of Christ’s resurrection? That we have been brought into God.
Our current position and standing as believers? In God.
How to carry on our Christian walk today? Live not in ourselves, but live in God.
The reason we have received the indwelling Spirit as the anointing? To teach us what it means to live in God, i.e. to make us understand what is in God and what is not in God.

kisstheson · 08-18-2008, 06:02 PM

Wow! Here is some food for thought for sure. All I can say about this portion from TAS is . . . “If the shoe fits, wear it”!

To introduce this portion, a principle should be stated: When making a point, it is sometimes very helpful to draw a contrast with a situation that presents the very opposite of the point being made. In order to strengthen his burden for what it actually means to live in God, towards the end of message two TAS draws a contrast with a situation that can not be considered living in God. This situation TAS calls “living in a man”. It brings tears to my eyes that TAS’s word concerning “living in a man” was never heard and distributed by the LC. What a healthy, protecting, balancing word this would have been! How different the history of the LC, particularly from the mid-1980’s onwards, would have been.

Excerpt from pages 20 and 21 of “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One” (emphasis is mine):

Quote:

“No division amongst the Lord’s people is of God, that is the work of the devil. And it is because those concerned have been living in some other place than in God . . . It may be that they have been living in someone else, you know it is possible to for us to live in a man. Be careful about living in a man. If you do that, that man is going to let you down. There will be division sooner or later. Do not make any man, no matter how wonderful he is, how great a preacher or teacher he is, do not make him your life. If you do, you may find yourself out of the Lord. The result is division. That is always what the enemy is after. So abide in God . . .”

“Be careful about living in a man.” Amen. Dear brothers and sisters - Abide in God!

kisstheson · 08-20-2008, 07:35 PM

Message Three is a short, but very sweet, word focusing on the absolutely incredible love that the Lord Jesus has for us, His disciples! The dear ones in the Philippines had just taken the Lord Table’s together, and apparently TAS was asked to give a short word (probably 10 to 15 minutes in length, at the most) after the Lord's Table.

The vast majority of TAS’s messages were not spoken in a tightly-organized, systematic, way. By nature, TAS was a bit of a “scatter-brain”. His speaking always seems to have come out of a deep, heartfelt, burden for his listeners, and his speaking contains many loosely-organized nuggets of spiritual wisdom gained from his time spent in the Word and from his experiences in the Lord. These nuggets are not spoken in a way that rigorously presents doctrine; rather, they are spoken in a stream of thought that is aimed at generating the greatest possible revealing of Christ, along with the greatest possible practical help to those listening (kind of like . . . the Bible!).

This message three is one of those messages where TAS closely followed a strict “outline”, probably due to the very tight time constraint. Using John 13:1 as his starting point, TAS presents seven aspects of the love that the Lord Jesus has towards all His disciples, as seen in John chapters 13 and 14. Some of these aspects really touch me deeply.

Quote:

"Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own that were in the world, He loved them unto the end - unto the uttermost." (John 13:1 ASV)

kisstheson · 08-20-2008, 09:29 PM

The Lord's love towards us is an unlimited love. Such love loves us to the very end, to the uttermost. As I mentioned in the previous post, TAS spoke on seven aspects of the Lord's love towards us, as seen in John Chapters 13 and 14. And so, dear brothers and sisters, I encourage you to slow down, collect your thoughts, turn to Him in a real way, and see how many of these seven rich points He will use to deeply touch your heart:

Christ is not offended by our failures – He does not withdraw His love for us because we make mistakes.
His love causes Him to come down to the level of the smallest ones and the weakest ones.
He loves us all equally; His love does not distinguish between classes of people, between “superior ones” and “inferior ones”.
His love is not merely sentimental, it is VERY practical.
His love is a cleansing love, helping us to live a higher level of life by freeing us from the evil that is in the world.
His love is full of spiritual instruction, causing us to lose all interest in becoming somebody important, and replacing worldly ambition with a simple desire to suffer for Him, to lay down our lives for Him. and to die for Him.
The love of Christ which He is/has, is a love which loves others to the uttermost – and this is the very love the Holy Spirit is working in us!

Marvelous! Thank you, dearest Lord, that Your most beautiful love is becoming more and more real in us!

YP0534 · 08-21-2008, 05:04 AM

Thanks for sharing this KTS but, can you explain the point further:

Quote:

[*]His love is not merely sentimental, it is VERY practical.

I mean, I could suggest an illustration that a mother changing diapers is not sentimental but practical but, I'd rather have something more along the lines of TAS's own thought here.

kisstheson · 08-21-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

Thanks for sharing this KTS but, can you explain the point further:

[*]His love is not merely sentimental, it is VERY practical.

I mean, I could suggest an illustration that a mother changing diapers is not sentimental but practical but, I'd rather have something more along the lines of TAS's own thought here.

Actually, dear brother YP0534, your illustration of practical love (as opposed to merely sentimental love) being seen in a mother changing diapers is very close to TAS's own thought here (and, of course, the thought of the Bible).

TAS's brief message was based upon John chapters 13 and 14, particularly on the last part of verse 13:1. ""Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own that were in the world, He loved them unto the end - unto the uttermost." (John 13:1 ASV) How did Jesus love his disciples "unto the end - unto the uttermost"? Was it His marvelous teaching on love in verses like 13:34-35 which constituted His loving them "unto the uttermost"? No. While His words in these verses were surely very loving, shepherding, words spoken to His disciples, TAS points out that the real loving of His disciples "unto the uttermost" in Chapter 13 took place when our dear Lord Jesus girded Himself with a towel and washed His disciples stinky, smelly, feet! This was love that was not merely sentimental, but was VERY, VERY, practical!

In TAS's own words:

Quote:

"Peter saw that basin and that water, he knew it was there, but he really was not seeing it. He walked past, and all the others followed. They all knew that that basin and that water and that towel were there, but no one was going to be the servant. They all went and sat down. Jesus took the towel, poured the water into the basin, and went straight to Peter, the man so important in his own eyes, too important to be a servant. The Lord and Master was the servant . . . You know, it is so easy to talk about love, to pretend to love, to use the language of love, to sings hymns about love, and it can all be sentimental . . . Now , the love of Jesus was not sentimental, it was practical. He did not go in with His disciples and say, 'Brothers, I do love you very much.' He showed that He loved them by what He did for them."

Arizona · 08-21-2008, 03:08 PM

KTS,

Thank you for this thread. A peaceful place amongst the clamor.

Yes,,,,, talk is cheap and action speaks louder than words.

His humility. Even to the death of a cross. He loves us!

I have been singing that song today,,,, "This is my story, this is my song; Praising my Saviour, all the day long". A favorite of mine since the beginning of my experience 37 years ago. I hope to sing it until the end of these days and into eternity.

Thanks again.

Arizona

YP0534 · 08-21-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Actually, dear brother YP0534, your illustration of practical love (as opposed to merely sentimental love) being seen in a mother changing diapers is very close to TAS's own thought here (and, of course, the thought of the Bible).

Huh.

Well, maybe there's hope for me after all.

Thanks for this sharing, KTS....

kisstheson · 08-22-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arizona

KTS,

Thank you for this thread. A peaceful place amongst the clamor.

Yes,,,,, talk is cheap and action speaks louder than words.

His humility. Even to the death of a cross. He loves us!

I have been singing that song today,,,, "This is my story, this is my song; Praising my Saviour, all the day long". A favorite of mine since the beginning of my experience 37 years ago. I hope to sing it until the end of these days and into eternity.

Thanks again.

Arizona

Amen, dear brother Arizona. It is so good to just be people of Christ gathered together in Him, focused on Him, loving Him, and loving one another. What a precious privilege, what a blessing, to know the utterly sweet simplicity of just being His people gathered together!

Ah yes . . . singing our story to Him and praising Him, all the day long! What a marvelous hymn - so rich in Christ and so Christ-exalting.

Much love to you in Christ, dear brother.

kisstheson · 08-22-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

Huh.

Well, maybe there's hope for me after all.

Thanks for this sharing, KTS....

Amen, dear brother YP0534. Yes, "In Christ Jesus There Is Hope For Us All!" Amen!

To me, the "doctrine" of "practical vs. sentimental love" is not hard for people to understand. It simply means serving others according to their needs. In teaching and in practice this is so very simple. The work that is truly worthy of God is to revolutionize our hearts, changing our hearts from being centered on our own importance and on our own desire to be served, all the way to hearts that are instead centered on a deep sense of humility and on a desire to willingly take the servant's place to serve others in their need.

I love you in Christ, dear brother.

kisstheson · 08-22-2008, 09:22 PM

Dear ones, this brief word that TAS spoke after the Lord's Table in Manila is so rich. The point that has been touching my heart and dealing with my heart the most is the sixth point: "His love is full of spiritual instruction, causing us to lose all interest in becoming somebody important, and replacing worldly ambition with a simple desire to suffer for Him, to lay down our lives for Him. and to die for Him."

In John 13, we see the Lord's extreme humbling of Himself in the practical love He displayed for His disciples by washing their smelly feet. We also see His speaking to them about love. Together these form a complete set of spiritual instruction that would definitely bear fruit one day in His disciples (as seen in v. 7b: "What I do now, you do not understand, but you shall understand afterwards.").

The tremendous work of spriritual instruction that the love of Christ can accomplish in us is beautifully explained by TAS on p. 27. I am SO touched by this! Dear ones, what a freeing from self-importance! What a freeing from ambition! What a beautiful freedom - freedom to willingly take the place of the servant, freedom to willingly suffer and die for Him, freedom to willingly lay down our lives for Him!

Quote:

"This love is going to instruct us as to what God loves and what God does not love. Up to this point, these disciples loved the world. Their hearts were set upon a kingdom in this world. They wanted the chief places in the Kingdom. They wanted to be important people in Christ's Kingdom. And their idea was that He was going to set up a kingdom in which they would be important. It was the spirit of the world. They loved the world. See what the love of God did in their hearts! It took all love for this world out of their hearts. They went out into the world, and suffered from the world, because of His love in their hearts. They lost all interest in being important people in this world. After all it did not matter whether they were important people in the Church. They had no ambition to be the teachers and the preachers. They had no ambition to be the elders of the Church. The love of Christ had done away with all that kind of thing. They went out to suffer and to die for Him. To lay down their lives for Christ. It was a tremendous thing that His love did in them."

kisstheson · 08-24-2008, 07:46 PM

Dear ones, Message 4 was spoken the evening after Message 3. This time the occasion was a marvelous love feast, with “over 700 gathered around the tables”. Just like the previous evening, TAS’s speaking was very brief. It appears that the time allotted to TAS after this love feast was greater than the time alloted to him the previous evening, but TAS willingly limited his speaking. He gave another short, but very rich, word that unveiled the greatness of Christ and got down to some very practical matters.

The Scriptural basis for TAS’s speaking was the first two verses of First Corinthians, with a strong emphasis on the second half of verse 2: “...With all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours.”

One very interesting feature of this message is that it shows TAS's gift for allegorizing the Bible in a balanced way. Even more, this message shows that TAS definitely saw the New Jerusalem as a spiritual reality, rather than just a physical city. TAS had been clear that the New Jerusalem is a spiritual reality for many years. In the excerpt shown below (pp. 31-32), TAS continues to speak on the importance of being open to fellowship with all those who are in Christ, showing that this reality can be seen in one of the aspects of the New Jerusalem:

Quote:

“Do you remember that there is a description of the New Jerusalem at the end of the Bible? I am afraid that the people who have written our hymns have gone astray on this. There is a hymn which says this, 'The streets, I am told, are paved with pure gold.' That is false doctrine. In the Bible, it says there is only one street. Only one street in the New Jerusalem. That one street is of gold. Dear friends, we will all get to live on the same street . . . Now I do not think we are to take that literally. I think it is symbolic, and is meant to teach us two things. (1) We are all going to be in the closest fellowship in heaven. And (2) the gold is the symbol of the love of God. We are all going to be together in the love of God.”

How wonderful, dear ones! Our eternal destiny is to be together in the closest fellowship and together in the love of God. All of us felllowshipping together in the love of God on the "one golden street". Marvelous!

kisstheson · 08-26-2008, 07:15 PM

Dear ones, I am more and more humbled by the largeness of heart TAS displayed in message four. TAS had a deep burden that Paul’s word in 1 Cor. 1:2b (“With all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours”) would do a real searching work in our hearts and cause us to face up to some very practical issues.

Paul’s word reveals a Christ who is Lord of all His people, in every place. TAS contrasts this word by Paul in the opening verses of First Corinthians to the verses later on which speak of the divisions that existed in Corinth. Paul’s Christ is seen to be much larger than the Christ of the divisive ones in Corinth. By not seeing that Christ is greater than all men, and greater than our limited mental concepts of Him, the ones in Corinth were making Christ too small, and by extension, making their assembly too small.

Remembering that our eternal destiny is to be in the closest fellowship with all those who are in Christ, and that a chief characteristic of eternity is that Christ will be “all and in all”, we have to question how much in this lifetime we are letting things other than Christ separate us from other believers. May we humble ourselves before the Lord and ask Him: “Do I only love those Christians who think just like me or am I open to show a practical love to all those who are in Christ in every place? Based upon the amount of love shown through me toward other Christians, how great is my Christ?”

As TAS spoke at the end of the love feast in Manila:

Quote:

“We are always making God, and the love of God, about the size of our own mind. And if people do not agree with our mind, that is where the love of God stops with us. We here tonight, represent many groups. Perhaps we have our own mind about things, but if this feast really lives up to its name, it represents something much bigger than our mind. We are not gathered to men or to a man. No man for us can measure Christ. We are here tonight because this is a true love feast. And that means that the love of Christ is in our heart . . . You had better begin to know how to live with your neighbor now. I mean your Christian neighbor. All those in every place who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus . . . We had better begin to make Christ everything now. If we are going to have anything as a foretell of heaven in this life, it will only be just as Christ is more than anything and everything else.”

TLFisher · 08-27-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Paul’s word reveals a Christ who is Lord of all His people, in every place. TAS contrasts this word by Paul in the opening verses of First Corinthians to the verses later on which speak of the divisions that existed in Corinth. Paul’s Christ is seen to be much larger than the Christ of the divisive ones in Corinth. By not seeing that Christ is greater than all men, and greater than our limited mental concepts of Him, the ones in Corinth were making Christ too small, and by extension, making their assembly too small.

Kisstheson, I was encouraged by your post. I appreciate what brother Sparks spoke at this gathering. My the Christ in our hearts be far more enlarged than our mental capcity or concepts.

Terry

YP0534 · 08-27-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear ones, I am more and more humbled by the largeness of heart TAS displayed in message four. TAS had a deep burden that Paul’s word in 1 Cor. 1:2b (“With all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours”) would do a real searching work in our hearts and cause us to face up to some very practical issues.

With all.

In every place.

Amen, Lord.

You be the Head.

We are Your Body.

kisstheson · 08-27-2008, 08:23 PM

Dear brothers Terry and YP0534,

Thank you for your posts, dear brothers. You have watered me and encouraged me during a dry, difficult, time. I am so thankful to the Lord for His care for me through His Body.

May the Christ in our hearts enlarge more and more! May we truly see Him as Head over all those who are His, in every place. May His love for all His people fill our hearts and flow out in practical love towards others.

Your fellow seeker of Him who is the most lovely One,
"kisstheson"

kisstheson · 08-27-2008, 08:35 PM

Along with being humbled by the largeness of heart TAS displayed in this message, my heart has been pierced by the sorrow TAS felt related to the divisions that have driven apart the people of Christ. TAS was so grieved by the tragedy he had seen play out so many times (and this tragedy could easily happen to us): We tend to limit Christ and the love of Christ to our mind. When others do not agree with our mind, the love of Christ stops with us. This leads to division amongst Christians, who should all be one since all of them, in every single place, have the same Lord.

A gifted man, a particular method of organization, some special teachings, some set-in-stone creeds - all these things can cause us to limit the Christ who is the Lord of all His people in every place. May we be open to receive all who are Christ’s. May we be willing to simply assemble inside of Christ and outside of everything that divides Christ. To use an oft-quoted LC term – may our ground be Christ and nothing but Christ.

TAS was so sorrowful over situations where Christians had limited their love toward one another because some person or some other factor had limited Christ in their minds. How TAS longed for a return to Christ as our one true, common ground:

Quote:

"We are not gathered to men or a man. No man for us can measure Christ. We are here tonight because this is a true love feast. And that means that the love of Christ is in our heart. We left our groups. We left our divisions. We are here on the common ground of Christ. What a grand thing it would be if all Christians just took that ground! The ground of so many Christians, the ground of some denominations, some organizations, some special teaching, or many different things, that is their ground. But the real ground of the Christian is Christ. If we all had a greater concern for the Lord Jesus than we had for religious things, what a different thing it would be in the world."

Ohio · 08-28-2008, 04:01 AM

"We are not gathered to men or a man. No man for us can measure Christ. We are here tonight because this is a true love feast. And that means that the love of Christ is in our heart. We left our groups. We left our divisions. We are here on the common ground of Christ. What a grand thing it would be if all Christians just took that ground! The ground of so many Christians, the ground of some denominations, some organizations, some special teaching, or many different things, that is their ground. But the real ground of the Christian is Christ. If we all had a greater concern for the Lord Jesus than we had for religious things, what a different thing it would be in the world." --- TAS

How true. When I first came to the LC, this kind of talk filled the airwaves. It was attractive and it was true in our hearts. What killed it was the "extras" that began to grow larger. We began to judge all others, thinking only we were right. Instead of looking for Christ, our "common ground," we looked for all the things that made us different, made us unique, made us special, made us God's move today -- "not some piece of poor, pitiful, degraded Christianity."

kisstheson · 08-28-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"We are not gathered to men or a man. No man for us can measure Christ. We are here tonight because this is a true love feast. And that means that the love of Christ is in our heart. We left our groups. We left our divisions. We are here on the common ground of Christ. What a grand thing it would be if all Christians just took that ground! The ground of so many Christians, the ground of some denominations, some organizations, some special teaching, or many different things, that is their ground. But the real ground of the Christian is Christ. If we all had a greater concern for the Lord Jesus than we had for religious things, what a different thing it would be in the world." --- TAS

How true. When I first came to the LC, this kind of talk filled the airwaves. It was attractive and it was true in our hearts. What killed it was the "extras" that began to grow larger. We began to judge all others, thinking only we were right. Instead of looking for Christ, our "common ground," we looked for all the things that made us different, made us unique, made us special, made us God's move today -- "not some piece of poor, pitiful, degraded Christianity."

Dear brother Ohio,

Thank you for reminding us of the early days in the LC. May God have mercy on us for all the "extras" that we allowed to creep in after we had tasted such sweetness and such reality. The more we proclaimed our superiority to all others, the more we lost sight of the fact that by including these "extras" we were no longer assembling in the simplicity and freedom that our heavenly Father longs for - which is worship that is purely and simply in spirit and truth.

Whatever faults TAS may have had, right up to his death in 1971 he remained faithful to the vision that Christ, and Christ alone, is our "common ground". Even though he was very lonely and very misunderstood in the last decade of his life, TAS was not disobedient to the revelation that our dear Lord Jesus Christ is indeed Lord of all those who are His, in every place.

How I need to repent to the Lord! Dear Lord Jesus, most lovely One, surely Your riches are more than enough to satisfy us for eternity. Forgive me for trying to bring something other than You into our gatherings. Forgive me for my ignorance - I lost sight of my need to bridle my tongue. I lost sight of the fact that when I insult and ridicule my brothers and sisters in Christ, I insult the One who gave His life and shed His blood to save them. Dear Lord, how I repent to You. Do cause me to repent to the uttermost. O Lord, may my broken and contrite heart become acceptable to You once again. Create in me a clean heart, O Lord, and renew a right spirit in me. Dear Lord, have mercy on my wretched soul.

kisstheson · 08-29-2008, 08:02 PM

Dear ones, having covered two brief messages spoken by TAS, Message Five brings us back to the series of longer messages that make up the majority of these two volumes. Message Five is entitled “Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth”. In this message TAS reintroduces his main burden for the dear ones in Manila – to get back to the “first principles” of Christ, to return to the eternal counsels of God for His New Testament people.

TAS states the rather obvious fact that the Christianity we have today includes a lot that has been added by man over the centuries. As examples TAS mentions ecclesiastical hierarchy and the forms, rituals, and systems that have developed in Christianity. He points out that all this in contrast to that fact that Christ came to initiate a new dispensation of “worship in spirit and truth”.

I am very impressed with the fact that TAS’s honest appraisal of Christianity is free from any trace of ridicule or superiority. He states the negative situation but does not dwell on it; rather, he is desperately burdened for his brothers and sisters in Christ to get past the surface matters and really see the awesome depths of Christ and the beautiful simplicity of assembling together in Him.

Excerpts from Message Five:

Quote:

“I think it is understood that in these meetings I am not giving formal addresses. I am just seeking to bring you to the foundation principles of the work of God. There is one thing that we must be prepared to recognize and accept. It is this: That before the apostles had finished their work on this earth, Christianity was beginning to move away from its foundations. That is, Christianity was moving away from its first position; and, therefore, the later ministry of the apostles was very largely corrective. Their ministry at the end was a ministry of adjustment to the first position . . . Wheresoever two or three are gathered into My name, worshiping in spirit and in truth. The dispensation has changed. It is the very first correction that is needed today. Christianity has become very largely a legalistic system. You must do it here! You must be here! You must do it in this way, or you are not the Church. The Lord Jesus had wiped this out in the beginning. He says the only ground that is necessary is in spirit and in truth in Me. Christ has taken the place of all other systems. CHRIST IS THE ONLY SYSTEM. But we have got to learn Christ.”

kisstheson · 09-02-2008, 01:28 PM

Dear ones, in the middle of Message Five TAS presents a really rich point that serves as a preparation for all his future speaking. He shares his own experience of wrestling with God over a certain matter. This matter concerned why the four Gospels were written so late in the New Testament time when compared with some of the Epistles. Surely the Epistles reveal so many marvelous truths – they reveal the death, resurrection, and ascension of our heavenly Lord; they reveal who we really are as believers; they reveal the Body of Christ; etc. Why, then, after so many "high" revelations did the Holy Spirit prompt some to “go back” to cover the earthly life of our dear Lord Jesus?

TAS testifies that when he first began to read the Bible, he read the four Gospels merely as stories concerning the earthly life, ministry, and teaching of Jesus. And then, for many years he “almost entirely lived” in the Epistles, basking in the high revelations there. Finally, at one point later in his life, the Holy Spirit led him back to the Gospels. This time the Gospels were like totally new books to Him! The second time around, it was like he was reading the Gospels with “an open heaven”. What was it that made such a difference? TAS points out that it was not the doctrines in the Epistles that prepared him to re-read the Gospels; rather, it was the fact that he had been brought into the experience of the things the Epistles speak of which made all the difference. Having learned many things about life in the Spirit and having been brought over the years into a deep experience of union with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection, TAS was able to clearly see the new life and new way of living that Jesus Christ displayed to mankind (and eventually made available to mankind) in the Gospels.

Excerpts from Message Five:

Quote:

When I started reading the Bible, and especially the New Testament, I did what most other people do. I read the Four Gospels as the story of the earthly life, work, and teaching of Jesus. It is a very interesting story of how He was born a little baby in the town of Bethlehem, all about the shepherds and the wise men and the star and all those things. That is very interesting . . . I went over to the Epistles, and for many years, I was wholly occupied with the Epistles. I was taken up with these eternal counsels of God. I was taken up with the spiritual Body of Christ . . . Now my point is this, No one can understand the Gospels truly until they have received the Holy Spirit, and have come into a true deep experience of death with Christ, burial with Christ, and resurrection with Christ. Because that experience, not that doctrine, that experience brings an open heaven. When I came into a new experience of resurrection union with Christ, and of a new life in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit began to lead me back to the Gospels. He began to show me the real meaning of the Gospels. The Gospels had become a new life in a new way.

djohnson · 09-02-2008, 04:14 PM

Ohio you and others have referred to the good old days in the LCS and then "things" changed and extras were brought in and became the focus. But did things really change or did you change i.e. you grew out of it? I ask because it seems to me the history of the LCS under Lee in the USA is just a repeat of history of the problems he caused in the Far East prior to his arrival on our fair shores.

Ohio · 09-02-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Ohio you and others have referred to the good old days in the LCS and then "things" changed and extras were brought in and became the focus. But did things really change or did you change i.e. you grew out of it? I ask because it seems to me the history of the LCS under Lee in the USA is just a repeat of history of the problems he caused in the Far East prior to his arrival on our fair shores.

There was a dramatic change in the mid-80's with all the "new way" talks and changes. We were instructed to stay close to WL in teaching and practice and attendance. What blessing we had was over. Lots of broken promises took the place of blessing from the Lord. The works of the flesh replaced the labor of love and the work of faith. Early on I saw so me answers to prayer, miracles if you will, all replaced by being "one with the ministry." So many saints got discouraged and left. The elders' responsibility shifted from primarily shepherding the flock to carrying out endless changes from on high.

Timotheist · 09-02-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Ohio you and others have referred to the good old days in the LCS and then "things" changed and extras were brought in and became the focus. But did things really change or did you change i.e. you grew out of it? I ask because it seems to me the history of the LCS under Lee in the USA is just a repeat of history of the problems he caused in the Far East prior to his arrival on our fair shores.

I can also attest to the good ol days as being genuine.

In the 70's, the organization was less visible to us 'laypeople'. In fact, the seeming lack of organization was part of the appeal.

The message then was: "Come join us! We have put aside religion and enjoy Christ alone. It does not matter what your background is. If you want to speak in tongues in our gatherings, then go for it. IF you want to sit quietly, then that is fine too." If somebody wanted to write a song to a Beatle's tune, then that was not only OK, it was encouraged.

Contrast that message with what the message is today. What an ironic tragedy that the very thing that was preached against is what we (they) became.

kisstheson · 09-02-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Ohio you and others have referred to the good old days in the LCS and then "things" changed and extras were brought in and became the focus. But did things really change or did you change i.e. you grew out of it? I ask because it seems to me the history of the LCS under Lee in the USA is just a repeat of history of the problems he caused in the Far East prior to his arrival on our fair shores.

Hello dear brothers,

Having listened to and read a lot of messages by TAS lately, along with reading a lot about the history of TAS and WL in the late 1950's and early 1960's, I have drawn my own conclusion on this matter. WL did cause a lot of problems and did experience a lot of failures in the Far East before he came to the U.S., but I believe that these many problems and failures served to humble him for a good while. Sadly, the "good while" eventually ran out and similar problems began to become increasingly manifest in the U.S. as well.

Probably the biggest of these early failures was the terrible church-split that took place in Manila in 1961. The church-split in Manila was a real shock to the "Little Flock" churches all over Asia, as the churches raised up by the ministry of Watchman Nee had never known such a split before. It is hard not to place a good bit of the blame at the feet of WL since, by their own admission, the church in Manila had "handed over" their entire church to WL. To this failure in Manila can be added the rebellion in Taiwan, further church-splits in other localities, and WL’s failed business ventures where many brothers and sisters in Taiwan lost a lot of money (Along with the time he was caught smuggling gold out of the Philippines?! I don’t know much about that incident.). During this time period, a lot of problems could be laid at the feet of WL.

I believe these problems humbled WL before the Lord and when he did begin to minister in the U.S., he did a lot less insisting and he kept the focus on Christ. One truly beautiful saying from this time period was "Don't insist and don't resist." On top of that, the Spirit of God really was moving in the young people all over the U.S.. Other spiritual men were ministering in the U.S. as well and a lot of informal, sweet, spontaneous moves of the Spirit were taking place. Those truly were wonderful days.

Sad to say, eventually the insisting came back and the focus subtly shifted to "the ministry". It is a real shame that WL was not open to being balanced by a godly man like TAS. TAS’s large heart, gentle spirit, and hard-won wisdom could have prevented a lot of the earlier problems from being repeated.

May God have mercy on us all.

kisstheson · 09-03-2008, 08:06 AM

At the end of Message Five TAS was very burdened for the ones listening to his words. He had such a strong desire that all Christians would really see how completely and totally the Lord Jesus Christ “wiped out” the old dispensation. Surely we all know that our Lord terminated all the outward aspects of the old dispensation – the temple, the priests, the altar, the offerings, the holy days, the holy diet, etc. But now, based upon the Samaritan woman’s challenge to Jesus about the “right place to worship” and Jesus’ answer to her in John 4:19-24, TAS desires us to see something much deeper. What TAS wants his listeners to see is the fact that our Lord terminated all attempts to limit God’s people to a certain place, a certain form, or a certain way. There is no longer any place or form or way which alone is acceptable to God. Christ is now the One unique “place”, the One unique “form”, and the One unique “way” that is acceptable to God. Our heavenly Father longs to gather us into Christ for worship that is in spirit and in truth. Christ terminated everything else!

For any group of believers to say things like “You must meet with us!” or “You must do it our way or you are not the Church!” is to go back to what the Lord Jesus wiped out in the beginning. It is to set up an additional “ground” beyond that which is in spirit and in truth in Him.

Excerpt from Message Five:

Quote:

“Now Jesus says this tremendous thing. The hour cometh and now is, when neither in Jerusalem nor in Samaria, neither in this special place nor in that special place. Everything is not going to be centered and contained in some special places. The worship of God is no longer going to be in a certain form. Neither - nor! That is wiping out with one stroke the whole dispensation. That is a tremendous thing. Suppose you were to write on the blackboard and fill the whole blackboard with all your doctrine and your practices, how things had to be done. You said that is Christianity. Someone came along with a wet sponge and wiped the whole thing out and said, 'That is nonsense; that is not it at all.' What would you do with that one? You will crucify him. That is what Jesus did. He wiped out the whole dispensation with one stroke of His hand. Then He puts something else in its place. What did He put in its place? God is Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

kisstheson · 09-04-2008, 12:18 AM

Dear ones, I thought I was ready to move on to Message Six, but the Lord is really speaking to me and doing a purifying work in my heart based upon the burden at the end of Message Five. TAS brought up the Samaritan woman’s challenge to the Lord: “Where is the right place to worship – this mountain here in Samaria or that mountain there in Jerusalem?”. TAS also pointed out how utterly profound our Lord’s answer to her was:“Neither – nor”! Neither in Samaria nor in Jerusalem! Neither the way, the preference, and the forms of the people in Samaria; nor the way, the preference, and the forms of the people in Jerusalem. “Neither-nor”!

All outward ways, preferences, and forms were terminated by our Lord when He terminated the old dispensation and brought in the new dispensation. All of the “handwritings in ordinances” were wiped out by Him! What then are we left with? Simply being gathered together into His Name, with Him in our midst. Simply offering our heavenly Father the worship in spirit and truth that His heart longs for.

A modern-day “Samaritan woman” might ask the Lord: “Most Christians say I can attend ‘the church of my choice’ while the Exclusive Brethren and the Local Church say that I must meet with them on the ‘ground of oneness’. Who is right?” Our Lord would answer now as He did back then: “Neither-nor”! Neither scattering into so many separate meeting places based upon preference nor insisting that others must come meet with us or ‘they are not the church’. “Neither-nor”! Why insist on outward ways, outward preferences, and outward forms, when our Lord already terminated all these things long ago? Anything that can be used to limit God’s people to either a certain way or a certain form has already been terminated! Again, all we are left with is the utter simplicity that our Lord gave to us at the very beginning: Being gathered together into His Name, with Him in our midst, to offer to our heavenly Father the worship in spirit and truth that His heart longs for. What freedom! This frees us to be willing to meet with any and all of God’s children, simply as brothers and sisters in Christ. This frees us from the pressure of having the “one right place to meet” and the “one right way to meet”. Our place to meet is Christ and our way to meet is worship in spirit and truth. Hallelujah!!

kisstheson · 09-05-2008, 05:48 PM

Dear ones, Message Six definitely has a different tone than any of the preceding five messages. The tone of message six is very serious and sober, dealing with the Kingdom of God. Even in such a serious and sober message as this, TAS’s burden remains clear – to get back to the foundational principles, the “first principles”, related to life in Christ.

Using the “Parable of the Sower” in Matthew chapter 13 as his Scriptural basis, TAS gets to the root of the matter – the Kingdom of God will not be our reality if we lack spiritual understanding of God's Word, and spiritual understanding of God's Word will not be ours unless we have a heart for Him. I really appreciate the sequence here: from a heart for the Lord comes spiritual understanding of His Word, and from spiritual understanding of His Word comes a life in the reality of the Kingdom. Ultimately, as the parable points out, it all comes down to whether or not we currently have a heart for the Lord. O Lord, my heart! What is my heart set upon today?

Excerpts from Message Six:

Quote:

“So Jesus comes with His Word and He says, 'This Word has ITS same power to all kinds of people.' What you are naturally is not the point. Now He comes to the point. Do you notice one word that repeatedly occurs in these parables? It is the word: "HEART." Heart, a good heart, IT IS A MATTER OF THE HEART, it is not a matter of your poor kind of humanity. It is altogether the matter of where your heart is. Have you got a heart for the Lord? Have you got a heart for the Kingdom of God? Really, this is a heart matter. For the Lord says, If you really have a heart, that is going to mean SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING . . . Spiritual understanding is the necessity. And SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING COMES FROM HAVING A HEART FOR THE LORD. Not being way side Christians, people who really do not have a mind for the Lord. Here comes the Word with all the mighty possibilities. Because you have not got a mind for the Lord, it means nothing . . . We say like Peter said one time, 'not my feet only, but my head and my hands.' He said that because he wanted everything he could get for himself. Later on, he came to see that everything was to be for the Lord. And he did not lose anything when he came to see that. When his heart was changed, and he now had a heart only for the Lord, then he came into the fullness of the Kingdom.”

kisstheson · 09-06-2008, 06:35 PM

Wow! I have been freshly touched by how much WL in particular, and the LC in general, desperately needed to be balanced by TAS’s large heart, gentle spirit, and hard-won wisdom. In message six, TAS brings out a real nugget related to gospel preaching from the “Parable of the Sower” in Matthew chapter 13. This nugget flies completely in the face of the LC’s focus on “good material”.

When our Lord Himself interpreted this parable in verses 13:19-23, He pointed out that the “seed” in this parable represents the Word of the Kingdom. Our Lord knows that this Word has the power to completely transform a person’s life. When He as the Son of Man sows His Word, He sows it without partiality, without discrimination. He knows that much of the “seed” will not bear “good fruit”, but He sows liberally anyway. He sows to the wayside, to the stony earth, and to the earth choked with thorns, as well as the good earth. He sows to everyone and then He lets the condition of each one’s heart determine the degree to which the “seed” will grow. He is simply sowing - He is not focusing on “good material”! Some of the best results of His sowing took place in some really shady characters! The whole idea of looking for “good material” is utterly foreign to this parable.

Excerpts from Message Six:

Quote:

“Now I want you to notice this: The same Lord comes with the same Word to every kind of person. The Lord Jesus knew that some people would be like the way side ground, but He did not say, 'Oh, I know that they are no good; I am not going to give them My Word. I know quite well that they will not bear much fruit so I shall not waste My Word on them.’ . . Jesus brought His Word and brings His Words to all kinds of people. Why does He do that? Now all you business men here tonight would not do that. And you very spiritual people would not do that. You would say, 'That is not using common sense. That is not good business. It is not good judgment to do that. Let us concentrate only upon what we are sure of. It is bad business to take any notice of those other unreliable people.' But you see the sense of Jesus is different from our sense . . . He says to the way side man, 'You can have just as much as the good ground man if you like.' He says to the rocky ground man, 'This Word of Mine can do in you just as much as it can do in anybody else.' He says to the thorny ground people, 'My Word is just as powerful for you as it is for anybody.’ . . . So Jesus comes with His Word and He says, 'This Word has ITS same power to all kinds of people.' What you are naturally is not the point.”

kisstheson · 09-08-2008, 09:38 AM

Dear ones, in message six brother TAS brings up a very sobering aspect related to this matter of the Lord sowing His Word of the Kingdom so liberally. The sobering aspect is this - Once the Lord Jesus has brought His Word to us, the responsibility then lies completely with us. How we react to His Word is our responsibility. His Word can have the same powerful results in all human beings – everything depends on whether or not we have a heart for Him. May He grant us the grace to truly open our hearts to Him and to be so sober and serious about the condition of our heart.

Excerpts from Message Six:

Quote:

“Why did Jesus do this thing which the men of the world would call foolish? He did it for one reason. He puts the responsibility for His Word upon everybody. The reaction to the Word of God is our responsibility when once He has given it. When once the Lord has brought to us His Word, He has put the responsibility away from Himself unto us . . . What is your reaction to the Lord? Is it really a whole hearted reaction?”

kisstheson · 09-08-2008, 08:10 PM

Dear ones, it may seem strange to say, but I am so happy that my fear of the Lord is returning! A proper, scriptural, healthy, balanced fear of the Lord - not the fear of a man, nor the fear of a ministry, nor the fear of a group of churches, but the fear OF THE LORD.

In Message Six TAS brings up the very sobering meaning behind our Lord’s reply to His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17. The Lord’s disciples came to Him and asked Him why He was speaking to the crowds in parables. Our Lord’s reply mentions some extremely serious matters . There is the matter of “from him who has not, from him shall be taken away even what he has” (v. 12b). Looking at the end of the next verse, we see that what is taken away is the ability to understand. This is the loss of spiritual understanding! This terrible loss is confirmed by the frightening verses from Isaiah quoted in vv.14-15.

I really appreciate that TAS did not use these verses to threaten people against forsaking his ministry or forsaking those churches which received his ministry. TAS was not concerned about Christians abandoning him; rather, he was very concerned about Christians abandoning the Lord, His Word, and His people. Like the apostle Paul, TAS was jealous over those listening to him speak for the Lord’s sake.

Excerpts from TAS’s speaking in Message Six:

Quote:

“He [the Lord Jesus] takes the terrible passage from the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, "By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive; for this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed." The prophet had given the Word of God to these people. The Word of God was read in their hearing every day and every week. But they had not got a heart for the Word of God. They did not respond from their hearts. So the Lord brought the judgment upon them. He says, 'You have closed your eyes; I will close them. You have closed your ears; I will close them. When you want to see, you will not be able to see. When you want to hear, you will not be able to hear. I will take away from you the power of spiritual understanding.' There is a warning for us here . . . Yes, you know about the Lord Jesus. You know what is in the Bible. But you are not going on with the Lord . . . You are not just rejoicing in the Word of God. You are not really a living Christian, taking your place amongst the people of God, coming to the help of the Lord against the mighty evil forces . . . Something is happening to you, that which you had is being taken away. You are losing the power of spiritual understanding. You are losing the power of spiritual sight and spiritual hearing. You see all that is going on amongst the Lord's people, but it does not interest you very much. You hear all that is said in the meeting, or in the home, but it does not matter to you. There are a lot of Christians like that. And this very thing is happening to them. They are in danger of losing all SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING. And, therefore, they are losing all the wonderful meaning of the Kingdom of God, of sharing the Kingdom with God's Son, of reigning together with Him in glory.”

kisstheson · 09-10-2008, 06:31 PM

Dear ones, while I am very sobered by both the Scripture verses referenced in message six and by brother TAS’s speaking based upon these verses, I am also very thankful that the door to repentance is always left open to us in this lifetime. When our heart hardens and ceases to be “good earth”, it really does seem that the things of the Lord become less and less real to us over time. While this is going on, however, our dear Lord is doing all He can to draw us and cause us to soften our heart and return to Him.

I think we all have had experiences like this. I know that when I came to realize how the LC was producing a proud, arrogant, Laodicean heart in me, besides wanting to flee the LC, the temptation was there to completely give up on the Lord as well. I gave in to this temptation for a good while and the experiences described by TAS in this message began to happen to me. As my heart turned harder and harder towards the Lord, the things of the Lord (especially His presence and His rhema words) became less and less real to me. Things that had been such a great encouragement to me and had really watered my inward man in the past now meant nothing. It was becoming harder and harder to receive any kind of spiritual fellowship. Into this dark, downward spiral, however, He provided a way out - Praise Him! Through genuine repentance, my hard heart really was “plowed up” and made soft once again! This is how hardened hearts can once more become the “good earth” for the “seed” to grow and bear fruit. With soft hearts turned back to the Lord, we really can regain our spiritual sight and we really can regain our spiritual understanding. Hallelujah!

How I appreciate the fact that after so much sober and serious speaking, TAS’s closing words in message six are a call for an honest return to the Lord:

Quote:

“Ask the Lord to give you spiritual understanding. And if you do not understand, do not say, 'I do not understand.' Go to the Lord and say, 'Lord, make me to understand.' 'Open the eyes of my heart.' That will show that you mean business with the Lord. And if you mean business with the Lord, the Lord will mean business with you.”

Paul Cox · 09-11-2008, 05:35 PM

Consider this possibility, saints:

There was something brewing in Witness Lee's heart all the way back in China. It took a while for it to come out, but eventually it did. Without the condition of his heart being such as it was, what happened in the eighties never would have taken place.

Things were good, to an extent in the seventies. But remember, there were large numbers of older saints who had been with Watchman Nee in China. I believe some of that blessing from China was still on the group. It took a while for the things in Witness Lee's heart to become manifest, and eventually all that was good in the group got usurped by 100% Witness Lee.

Now his survivors have taken things to an absolute extreme, and have long ago gone past the point of no return.

I entered the Local Church in the early seventies. The church life was enjoyable. But there were warning signs all over the place. Of course, there weren’t HWMRs back then, but I certainly remember being on the list to automatically get the life study messages in a little manila envelope every week.

Everybody reading the same thing, speaking the same thing, and doing the same thing was already well in place. And, even then whenever Witness Lee opened his mouth that would start a herd stampede in another direction. It was the “flow.”

I always likened it unto a football drill that many of us are familiar with: Everybody in full gear under the hot blazing sun, and high stepping in place. The coach raises the football and moves it to the right. Off goes the group prancing in that direction. Then he moves the football in the opposite direction and off the team goes in that direction. That was how the Local Churches on the earth reacted to the different “flows” proceeding out of Witness Lee’s mouth, even back in the seventies.

The intent was the same; the method has changed over the decades. But the end result is just to have a group of people who are in complete uniformity, with little possibility that many would escape the plantation.

Roger

PS KisstheSon,
Thanks for posting the riches from the ministry of TAS. For all the years in the Local Church we were discouraged from getting into his ministry. Come to find out, much of what Lee was teaching had originally come from TAS.

His audio messages are also available at
www.Christiantapeministry.com
The ministry is called something else now, but that ad

kisstheson · 09-12-2008, 06:23 PM

Amen, dear brother Roger. The scenario you presented definitely registers with me. Actually, it really, really, saddens me; but, I must admit that it definitely rings true. Oneness with Christ, obedience to Christ, following Christ wherever He might go – all that was gradually replaced by oneness with Lee and his ministry, obedience to Lee and his ministry, and “being absolute” in following Lee and his ministry. As this was happening, our God, who by His own Word is a jealous God, had to gradually withdraw His blessing.

The ones who had been with Watchman Nee would have been much less prone to over-exalting a minster of Christ. They knew that to have more and more of Christ, there needs to be less and less that is of men. Hence, as you say, they were a big factor in a portion of blessing remaining with the LC in the 1970’s. As these older ones gradually passed away and newer, spiritually-inexperienced, ones arose who never knew WN, the excellent teachings in the LC and the teacher who taught them became more and more our focus. All the while we ignored the many warning signs that surrounded us.

As you say, it took time for what was in WL’s heart to become fully manifest. Going through these marvelous messages spoken by TAS, it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that the times TAS and WL had together in the late 1950’s were an attempt by God Himself to bring some honest, frank, faithful fellowship to WL in order to balance him. With WN in prison, it seems that TAS was the last one on the whole earth who could have been used by the Lord to balance WL. Sadly, WL refused this balance and after this it was not long before WL was also estranged from the three other co-workers of WN who had been sent out of Mainland China (Simon Meek, Faithful Luke, and Stephen Kaung). The rest of the story, of course, is history that all of us know too well.

How prone we all are to think so highly of ourselves! How very sobering this all should be to us! One of the great services that TAS’s ministry can perform for us, if we are open to it, is to show us how important it is for human beings to take their hands off the things of God.

kisstheson · 09-13-2008, 12:49 PM

Dear brother Roger,

Thank you so much for your “PS” in your previous post. It really saddens me that the brothers and the sisters in the LC were discouraged from reading TAS’s ministry for all those years. A lot of riches were missed and a lot of healthy spiritual balance was missed. I just can’t find anywhere in the New Testament where we are exhorted to limit ourselves to the ministry of only one minister of Christ.

TAS definitely had a lot of important things to say. But even beyond the rich details within TAS’s speaking, just being open to TAS’s ministry would have been a healthy humbling to those in the LC, as they would have seen clear evidence of the Lord's moving in places outside of the LC. By reading TAS’s ministry, they would have seen the precious work our Lord carried out through TAS and those with him. In addition, TAS’s ministry would have pointed them to others like Bakht Singh, Stephen Kaung, etc., where the Lord was also working in a fresh, up-to-date, way.

Thank you, dear brother, for the web-site link. I have always thought of christiantapeministry.com as the site for Stephen Kaung/Lance Lambert/Christian Chen. This site actually contains 318 TAS messages! Another pleasant surprise is that this site contains five messages from John Ingalls.

For those who would like to be able to view the text of the messages that I am referring to in this thread, please visit austin-sparks.net and look for the messages spoken in 1964 under the series title “"That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One". To directly link to the messages in Volume 1 (Message 1 - 22) of this series, click here.

kisstheson · 09-13-2008, 05:55 PM

What confusion is brought into the Lord’s testimony when men make themselves out to be so important! Message Seven is full of TAS’s hard-won wisdom regarding the need for men to humble themselves before God and to stop putting their self-important human hands all over the things of God. This message is very convicting and is certainly “solid food”. I find myself very humbled by this message.

Dear brother Roger’s last post is a perfect lead-in to a discussion of message seven. Roger mentioned the older saints who had been with WN in China and the blessing that was still on them. I am always so impressed that Watchman Nee's former co-workers all testify that WN never allowed the brothers and sisters in China in exalt him. In fact, WN hardly allowed them to even mention his name! James Chen, a former co-worker of WN who was led to the Lord by WN in 1926 and who received a lot of help from WN regarding loving the Lord and seeking the Lord, said this in the book The Passing of the Torch:

Quote:

“If Watchman Nee were here and if he heard me mentioning his name, he would be very unhappy. I feel I am saying too much about him. He never wanted anyone to exalt Watchman Nee more than Christ. He felt very deeply that his name should never take up even a little bit of the attention due the name of Jesus Christ. The Christians and the churches all over China, although they respected Watchman Nee, seldom mentioned his name – but they exalted Christ. Brother Watchman Nee was not our head, but Jesus Christ was our Head.”

TAS also refused to allow others to exalt him, and, like WN, always wanted the focus to be on Christ and Christ alone. TAS opened his heart and spoke regarding this matter in message seven:

Quote:

“Sometimes I go to some places. I am introduced to the congregation. The one who introduces me says, 'Mr. Austin-Sparks, the great Bible teacher from Europe.' And then a lot of other things. My heart sinks; I feel ill. I have to stand up and say, 'Do not take any notice of that. I am nobody. The Lord is everything.' Man has no place in the House of God. We come into God's House in our own importance, in our own strength, putting our hands on things, our minds on things, our wills on things. We are changing the whole nature of the House of God. The Lord will be limited there. Indeed, He will not have a clear way for Himself. This Jesus Who was the very presence of God says, ‘I am meek and lowly in heart.’”

kisstheson · 09-14-2008, 09:20 AM

Dear ones, the problem with making ourselves out to be so important is that it leads us to an attitude where we think we are qualified to bring the things of God under our own control. We think we are qualified to take the deep, mysterious, matters of the Spirit and force them into “statements of faith” and formal creeds. We think we are qualified to take the testimonies of the living practices found in the New Testament assemblies and force them into set forms and rituals.

TAS has much to say regarding this matter in message seven. His two main points are these: Firstly, we bring nothing but trouble and confusion into the assemblies of God’s people whenever we try to bring the things of God under our own control. Trouble and confusion are always the result of man putting his hands into the things of God. Secondly, because of our tendency to try to bring the things of God under our own control, God in His mercy has to come in to weaken us and to make us know our own weakness. He has to bring us to the point where we glory in our weaknesses and infirmities, so that the power of Christ (and not our own power!) can rest upon us.

Excerpts from TAS’s speaking in message seven:

Quote:

“Somehow or other man must put his hand on things . . . That is, to bring the things of God into his own control. We use our hands in order to bring things under our control. But when it comes to the things of God, that is a wrong use of our hands . . . Christianity began in a simple beautiful living way. It was all in the life and the liberty of the Spirit. And while the Holy Spirit has His hand on things, everything is all right . . . Man has brought it under his control. That is always a dangerous and a disastrous thing. The Lord's attitude is like this. 'I will keep My hands off until you take yours off. While your hands are on My things I will leave it to you.' And things go from bad to worse. Now I think we all recognize that. The more a man or any man puts their hands on the things of God, the more confusion there is. When man brings the things of God under his control and dominates them, that means trouble. That is why the Lord so often had to weaken man and make man know his own weakness.”

kisstheson · 09-14-2008, 07:05 PM

I mourn for the fact that the healthy, balancing word contained in Message Seven was never available in the LC to balance WL and the BB’s. This really is a cause for mourning. :verysad: Two simple, searching, questions from TAS could have potentially saved so much pain and heartache. The two questions are these: “Have you put your human hands on the things of God? Have you tried to bring the things of God under your own control?”

As we are all familiar, this important principle of taking our human hands off of the things of God shows up in the OT in "pictures" and in the NT as a spiritual reality. TAS mentions the case of the Philistines in 1 Sam. 5:1–12 and the case of Uzzah in 2 Sam. 6:6–10, along with the NT examples of Saul of Tarsus in Acts 8:1–3 & 9:1-2, and Peter in Acts 10.

Excerpts from TAS’s speaking in message seven (emphasis mine):

Quote:

“The Philistines put their hands on the ark with disastrous results for themselves. Uzzah in the days of David put his hand on the ark; and the Lord smote Uzzah [so] that he died. And for the time being everything came into confusion in Israel. The ark of the testimony had to be turned aside. The whole progress toward God's end had been brought to a standstill . . . Paul, the apostle, was a strong man naturally. And as Saul of Tarsus, he put his hand on the things of God. And then the Lord met him and smote him. And in the end, the apostle said, ‘I will glory in my infirmity and in my weakness, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.’ . . . When the Spirit told Peter to go to this home of the Gentile, Peter said, "not so, Lord"; he put out his hand, and he said, "Now Lord, You are wrong and I am right; You must come into line with my Old Testament understanding." That was a very critical day for Peter. And it was a very critical day for the Church. When Peter took his hands off, it became a wonderful day for the Church.”

As always, these words need, first and foremost, to penetrate and search my own heart. How much, O Lord, do I need Your forgiveness and Your cleansing! In obedience to the Lord, however, I must speak this word of love to the ‘Blended Brothers’: “Enough is enough already, dear brothers! Take your human hands off of the things of God!!”

kisstheson · 09-16-2008, 12:46 PM

Dear ones, TAS now has a very important question to answer: When all the natural human hands are taken off of the things of the Lord, and when the things of God are no longer brought under human control, what is left? In other words, what exists at very heart, the very root, of all God desires to do in this age? The answer, which is clearly presented in Message Seven by dear brother TAS, should be familiar to all of us with an LC background – The one, basic, fundamental, foundational, all-inclusive, principle which underlies everything God is doing today is simply a person, Jesus Christ! Yes! Our wonderful, precious, supremely-rich Christ!

Watchman Nee clearly testified in the message entitled “What Are We?” that TAS was one of the ones outside of the “Little Flock” in China who also saw the “centrality and universality” of Christ:

Quote:

“Christ is God’s centrality and God’s universality. All of God’s plan is related to Christ. This is the truth that God is pleased to reveal to us in these days. It is also the message we are preaching during this conference. This is what God showed Brother Sparks also.”

How great was TAS’s longing that those listening to him speak would get past all that is of man and get back to Christ Himself:

Quote:

“So we have got to get right back to Christianity as a system as we know it. And get right to the first simple spiritual principle of Jesus Christ . . . The new dispensation is the dispensation of Jesus Christ. Christ is the new dispensation. ‘I am here’, He said. You go through that Gospel of John. He is centering everything in Himself. I am the Way; I am the Truth; I am the Life; I am the Shepherd; I am the Vine; I am the Resurrection. IT IS A PERSON. It is that which lies behind everything . . . That is where it all begins and it never departs from HIM. The development of the Christian life is only the development of Jesus Christ in the life . . . We are getting right back behind Christianity to Christ. Right back behind what man calls the Church to Christ.”

kisstheson · 09-18-2008, 08:13 PM

Dear ones, this Message Seven is like a trip down memory lane! In this message, TAS speaks so much of what captured me to “the Lord’s Recovery” in the first place. I really appreciate TAS’s burden to return to the most fundamental matter in our Christian life, both individually and corporately – Christ Himself. Christ, the One growing in us and forming Himself in us. Christ, the One real and present in our midst whenever we gather together into His Name. Christ, our All in All!

TAS has a lot to say about the Church being the corporate Christ. TAS’s large heart is on display here: all those who have Christ dwelling within them belong to the church. The indwelling of Christ is what is first and foremost - not doctrine, or practice, or any other thing.

It saddens me more and more that the LC became a one-man show, when other ministers of Christ like TAS clearly had an overflowing abundance of Christ-centered revelation to share.

Excerpts from message seven:

Quote:

“If I were to ask you to write down on one sheet of paper the answer to this question, "What is the Church?" I wonder what I should get. I am sure somebody will give me a wonderful system of Church truth. A wonderful order of Church practice. The answer is simple. The Church is Jesus Christ, nothing less than that, nothing more than that. If Christ is in a number of people, it is He Who forms the Church. It is Christ in us that makes the Church, not first our doctrine, not first our practice, not first the way we carry on when we come together: but first of all the Presence of the Lord. The Presence of the Lord in those who are gathered together, that makes the Church . . . The Church takes its character from Christ. CHRIST CORPORATE IS THE CHURCH. You have got to prove that Christ is not in me, in order to say that I am not in the Church. And you have no right to say to anybody who has Christ dwelling within, that they do not belong to the Church.”

Toledo · 09-19-2008, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

It really saddens me that the brothers and the sisters in the LC were discouraged from reading TAS’s ministry for all those years. A lot of riches were missed and a lot of healthy spiritual balance was missed. I just can’t find anywhere in the New Testament where we are exhorted to limit ourselves to the ministry of only one minister of Christ.

Once again, I am surprised (and frankly shocked) by many of the testimonies I read on this forum. I agree that it is saddening to learn that saints were discouraged from reading brother Sparks's ministry. I had not realized such restrictive practices were carried out in many places.

Although there have been many abuses in my church life experience, at least I was fortunate enough to serve near Jim Reetzche (sp?) of Chicago, who always encouraged us to read many other authors besides WL. It was Jim who pointed me to the works of TAS. He consistently endeavored to get us to read widely, and would not let us be limited to only one man's ministry.

Alas, now that he is getting old and is in poor health, he seems to have lost the boldness to continue in the way he set us on, and has allowed himself to be subdued by the dear Blended ones...

kisstheson · 09-19-2008, 11:26 AM

Blessed are you, dear brother Toledo! I remember visiting the bookstore in Chicago on West Irving Park Road some years ago and thinking “the mindset here is definitely broader and more inclusive than the mindset in my region”. When I would visit the church web sites for localities like Cleveland, OH ,and Westland, MI, and I saw all the positive mentions and links to other ministries besides LSM, this thought would be confirmed.

The mindset in my region was very set – “Sure, there are helpful things in the writings of others besides Nee and Lee; but, be assured that brothers Nee and Lee have already gone through these writings and extracted everything that is helpful in them. You waste your time when you read any other writings besides Nee and Lee.” This mindset was strengthened when WL made his infamous “To go back to the old writings is to go back to the old things” comment in one of the mid-1980’s Elders’ Training messages. Anyone in my region who publicly mentioned that they were reading anything besides Nee and Lee was treated in the same way that the Samaritan woman treated our dear Lord Jesus : “Are you greater than our brothers Nee and Lee? Do you think you have more gift, more discernment, than them? ” And so, while there was nothing like the “One Publication” edict back in those days, there was plenty of public disapproval and peer pressure exercised upon the brothers and sisters to keep them away from any other ministries.

I appreciate dear brother Jim Reetzke’s heart. You were fortunate indeed, dear brother. Sadly, brother Reetzke’s book on T. Austin-Sparks, while really excellent in parts, ends up propagating the old Lee-centric mythology that TAS lost the flow of the Spirit and TAS’s ministry lost its impact once TAS disagreed with WL over the ground of locality.

Excerpt from dear brother Jim Reetzke’s book:

Quote:

“In 1965, one brother went to a conference in Waubana in which Brother Sparks took the lead. According to this brother’s impression at that time, Brother Spark’s ministry had lost its impact. This again shows that when Brother Sparks refused the way of the Spirit, the flow within him was cut off, and he gradually lost his ministry.”

Compare this to dear brother Herald Hsu’s testimony from Manila in 1964 (emphasis mine):

Quote:

“Finally in 1964, TAS and his wife also came to Manila where they stayed and ministered to us for a month. TAS held two special conferences and also spoke in regular meetings. He delivered 42 messages in all, leading us and the whole body of Christ into the spiritual and heavenly realms.”

So, which is it – “lost its impact” or “leading us into the spiritual and heavenly realms”?

kisstheson · 09-19-2008, 04:40 PM

I guess I should answer my own rhetorical question posed at the very end of my previous post. It seems to me that those who focus solely on one particular man’s ministry will close their hearts towards TAS, and consequently, TAS’s ministry will seem to have no impact to them. To those, however, whose hearts are open to TAS, the riches in TAS’s ministry can be a factor in leading them into the spiritual and heavenly realms. It is all a matter of the heart.

Should I be WL-only or should I be TAS-only? Praise God, none of us has to make that choice! According to the apostle Paul’s heart in 1st Corinthians 3:21-22, the supply from all genuine ministers of Christ is ours. “So then, let no one boast in men, for all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all are yours.” May our hearts be enlarged to receive whatever our dear Lord desires to speak to us through all the members of His Body.

Humble me, dear Lord, that I might be open to hear Your speaking to me through any of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Dear Lord, do have mercy on us all.

kisstheson · 09-23-2008, 08:08 PM

Dear ones, I have some “homework” to do! In Message Seven, dear brother TAS challenged those listening to his speaking to search the entire New Testament and find out exactly what Paul and the other apostles believed was the real purpose of their work for the Lord. According to the NT scriptures, what is actually revealed concerning the reason why our Lord sent out His apostles? What yearning in His heart did He long to see fulfilled through His apostles’ laboring for Him?

In previous posts, the rich, Christ-centered, flavor that permeates this message seven was mentioned several times. Dear brother TAS made Christ the reality and the focus of all things related to God: Christ IS the new dispensation of God. Christ IS the center of all that God is doing today. Our development and growth in the Christian life is simply the development of Christ in our life. The true nature of the church is just Christ; indeed, the church is Christ corporate. It's all Christ! Having seen all these points, I now desire to learn from the NT how the work of God is also completely centered on our wonderful Christ. This should be a rich study in the Word! I plan on collecting all the verses that I can find related to the true purpose of the apostles’ labors for the Lord. After collecting these verses, my desire is to spend time in the presence of our Lord to see something of what these verses reveal concerning His heart’s desire. I then plan on comparing what I have seen from the Lord with TAS’s speaking to see if I arrive at the same conclusions that TAS did.

And so, if you will excuse me, I have some “homework” to do . . .

kisstheson · 09-25-2008, 07:10 PM

Dear ones, after looking through the verses in the Gospels and the book of Acts where our Lord Jesus charges His apostles concerning their labor for Him, I am beginning to see what TAS was getting at in message seven. The mandates given to the apostles really were 100% Christ-centered. As each of the twelve labored for Christ, their center was not themselves. Their center was not their ministry. Their center was not even the assemblies raised up by their ministry. Their center, their focus, was proclaiming Chirst and bringing the presence of Christ with them wherever they went. TAS's view of true ministry for the Lord is really marvelous! To His apostles, Christ truly was all!

Here are the marvelous portions from the Scriptures upon which I base my conclusions thus far:

Quote:

“And Jesus came up and spoke to them saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the age.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

Quote:

“And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:15-16)

Quote:

“And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons, and to heal diseases. And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, and to perform healing.” (Luke 9:1-2)

Quote:

“Tend My lambs . . . Shepherd My sheep . . . Tend My sheep.” (John 21: 15b, 16b, 17b)

Quote:

“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

Accorrding to these wonderful words form our dear Lord Jesus, the veiw that the Twelve had of their labor for the Lord was this: They were to teach the things Christ commanded, to proclaim Christ’s gospel, to be given power and authority by Christ, to feed Christ’s lambs, and to be witnesses of Christ all over the earth. It is all so fully centered on Christ! Hallelujah! Amen!

kisstheson · 09-26-2008, 02:19 PM

Wow! There is a wonderful verse that, strictly speaking, does not apply to the original twelve apostles or to the apostle Paul, but it contains a really rich principle related to apostolic labor for the Lord. This verse is Luke 10:1 and was spoken to “the seventy” whom our Lord sent out after he had sent out the twelve:

Quote:

“Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them two and two ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.” (Luke 10:1)

What a principle for apostolic labor! Being sent out ahead of the Lord to every place where He Himself was going to come. In other words, being sent out to prepare these places for the arrival of the Lord’s presence. Just think, in all the places that the seventy visited, the presence of the Lord was soon to follow! This is not a natural human thought at all – to think of our labor for the Lord as being a factor in actually bringing the presence of Christ to the places where people live and work! There is a very deep principle here, much deeper than our usual natural thought of apostles being sent out to do a work of "church planting". TAS explains all this much better than I can:

Quote:

“And it says, "He sent them into every place, where He Himself would go." He has never changed that principle. He does not send us to form churches or set up Christianity. He sends us before His face to bring Himself there. That does not mean that churches have no meaning. But that brings us right to the point. What are churches? They are just people gathered into Christ where He Himself is. The supreme thing is this eternal thought of God, the Presence of the Lord. The Presence of the Lord, that is the purpose of anything that is called the church. And that is the only Purpose.”

Admin · 07-15-2009, 07:52 AM

Previously lost thread -

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One".

I envision this thread to be a sort of "blog", containing my thoughts, reflections, and meditations as I read through these 42 messages spoken by TAS, interspersed with comments and questions from you dear ones.

A rich nugget in the book's introduction concerns dear brother TAS's realization that "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place." TAS knew that a great cost is required from all those who would participate in allowing the Lord His right to come into His full place. TAS knew that he himself and his ministry must never become such an important issue to the believers that they become a device used by the enemy to divide and destroy God's people, and that he and his ministry must never become something that competes with the Lord Jesus for His full place. TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."

What a blessed beginning!

awareness · 07-16-2009, 12:34 PM

kisstheson:
>> TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."
<<

Now there's a brother the knows his proper standing, and that of his ministry, before the Lord.

How refreshing.....

aron · 07-16-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

TAS : "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place... I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."

Harold: Now there's a brother the knows his proper standing, and that of his ministry, before the Lord.

I am becoming convinced that the great and original error is simply not knowing one's place, and subsequently going beyond the boundaries God has set for each of us in His creation. Each created object has a limit; only God is the One who "fills all in all", whose "kingdom shall increase without end". Every created, semi-autonomous decision-making agent must function within prescribed limits.

Verse 6 of Jude's epistle is "more than crucial", as WL might say, in understanding this principle. It establishes a basis for determination which goes from the original pre-adamic spiritual entities, including Lucifer and his fallen angels, to the fall of man in the first garden, to humans both chosen and not (see the Nebuchadnezzar; see David in his numbering of Israel and gazing upon Bathsheba, etc, etc) right up through the Gospels and the whole NT.

I am thinking that YP was on to something when he said that the post-resurrection decline perhaps began when the brothers selected substitutions (i.e. deacons) in the serving of food in Acts chapter 6. Compare this with kts' recently cited (post #63) Luke Chapter 10, verse 1, where Jesus sent people before Him, where He was about to go. You can underline, bold, colorize, italize that last part: "where He was about to go". He didn't send them somewhere He didn't want to go. He didn't say, "I am going to go pray and study scriptures. You guys go do the grunt work." No, He always led them before His face.

When Jesus fed the thousands, He Himself broke the bread; He didn't get others to do it for Him, saying that He had more important "spiritual" work to do. He chose assistants, yes, but not substitutes. The brothers in Acts 6 chose substitutes.

Lee also went beyond his measure. The result has been a scattering of the flock. Lawsuits of brother against brother, GLA saints and Brazilian saints getting disfellowshipped, and more calamities to come, I am sure.

Sparks, as Awareness said, "knew his proper standing"... and let God do the ordering according to His own sovereign will. Sparks stayed within his allotted boundaries, as have Moody, Graham, and many other dear servants whose ministries didn't result in havoc among the saints.

awareness · 07-16-2009, 07:16 PM

Aron:
>> Sparks, as Awareness said, "knew his proper standing"... <<

But didn't Lee say that Sparks didn't know his standing, which was submitting to Lee's ministry? Didn't Lee say that the Lord's blessing left Sparks, because he didn't submit? Am I wrong, or off base here?

kisstheson · 07-17-2009, 11:33 AM

Dear ones, beloved in Christ,

First of all, I want to thank dear brother UntoHim for taking the time to investigate why this thread disappeared, and also for doing whatever it took to bring this thread back to life. For me and for all of us - Thank you, dear brother, UntoHim.

Dear brothers aron and awareness – I have really enjoyed the recent posts by both of you. Here is my understanding of what transpired between TAS and WL, and this whole idea that “the blessing left TAS”:

TAS made two visits to Taiwan in the 1950’s, once in November and December of 1955 and a second visit in February and March of 1957. According to those present in 1955, all the speaking by TAS and dear brother Angus Kinnear during that first visit was very enlightening and very helpful. Before the second visit, some of WL’s young co-workers were beginning to “dissent” from WL and a “rebellion” was brewing. In the co-worker gatherings with TAS during the 1957 visit, these young ones several times asked TAS some very leading questions regarding highly sensitive matters where TAS and WL did not agree (i.e. “the ground of the church”). Not surprisingly, these young co-workers took TAS’s speaking as a reason to widen their split with WL. In summary, there already was a problem in Taiwan, and it existed before TAS ever arrived for this second visit in 1957.

After his visit to Taiwan in 1957, TAS invited WL to come to Honor Oak in London to conduct a three-day conference in early August of 1958. WL and TAS met up again in Kilcreggan, Scotland, on August 18, 1958. This was the beginning of two weeks of fellowship together. It was during this two-week period of fellowship that TAS supposedly told WL something to the effect that once the plane TAS was on left Taipei in 1957, the ‘flow’ from God left TAS, and it had not returned, right up until that very day (i.e. August of 1958).

I am not sure how it started, but an expanded version of this story came to be part of the LSM/LC “mythology”. When I first touched the LC decades ago, I was told very clearly in a home meeting that once TAS resisted the “ground of the church” in 1957, the flow of God left him for good and never returned to him. This, of course, implied that the 'flow' left TAS all the way until TAS's death in 1971. I heard this same version of the story many times after that. I will give WL the benefit of the doubt that he accurately reported TAS’s words in August of 1958. The problem is, something got added during all the respeakings of WL's words.

After having read brother Herald Hsu' testimony, several accounts by WL of these events (in The Vision of the Age and Life-Study of Colossians), the biography of TAS by brother James Reetzke, the biography of TAS by brother Rex Beck, and almost all of TAS’s messages spoken in the 1960’s, I have come to a conclusion on this matter. I do believe that TAS was under the chastisement of the Lord for some time after his visit to Taiwan in 1957. I believe TAS was too naïve and allowed himself to be used as a pawn in the conflict between WL and the younger co-workers. TAS certainly had a real spirit of being a "sheep among wolves". He also had a real spirit of being "innocent as a dove". But he appeared to have had a lack in the area of being “wise as a serpent” (see Matthew 10:16). TAS should definitely have been more discerning before he spoke so frankly to WL and the co-workers. Could he not see that he was “sitting on a powder keg” which was ready to explode? For this, I can see why he experienced a dry time in his walk with the Lord which lasted at least until August of 1958.

Having said that, I see no evidence that this loss of the ‘flow’ from God lasted all the way until TAS’s death in 1971. Not even close. TAS makes many mentions of precious, intimate, experiences of a ‘flow’ from Christ in his speakings and his writings during the 1960’s and very early 1970's. During this period, he experienced the real shining of a “rhema” word from the Lord many times. Also during this period, he experienced very definite leadings from the Lord, either to go forward or to wait. He also experienced conviction from the Lord. TAS was not boastful; rather, he simply spoke of these things in a very natural way, believing that these experiences were the common inheritance of every born-again believer. In these messages spoken in the Philippines early in 1964, TAS makes several references to times when he experienced the ‘flow’ from God. Please see my previous post, post # 15, for an example of such an experience by both TAS and his wife.

Interestingly, in these messages spoken in the Philippines, TAS makes mention of a somewhat lengthy experience of the Lord’s chastisement. Perhaps he is speaking of his experience from the late 1950’s? I will try to find the exact quote where TAS mentioned this experience and post it here in this thread.

awareness · 07-17-2009, 01:30 PM

kisstheson:
>> Interestingly, in these messages spoken in the Philippines, TAS makes mention of a somewhat lengthy experience of the Lord’s chastisement. Perhaps he is speaking of his experience from the late 1950’s? I will try to find the exact quote where TAS mentioned this experience and post it here in this thread. <<

And we await to read what you find.

But no matter what Lee has to say about TAS, in my estimation TAS was much more true to his Christian teachings than Lee was to his own, and in his humilty before the Lord too.

This can clearly be seen in the publishing of both men, and how they contrast. Lee copyrights all his material (have you ever been on a LSM site, where they say it's copyrighted even for personal use - and then your public IP is posted, as a warning that they can find you?)

But TAS wouldn't allow his works to be copyrighted. He presented them to all the saints, and for any use whatsoever. This is how a proper Christian, one that's not worshiping mammon, should act.

But not Lee. His aim was obviously, money, money, money....and that's why he never dealt with Philip...and why he copyrighted his works.

How can anyone that would allow the sin of Philip to continue, dare to criticize TAS? And claim that the flow left TAS? Seems to me that "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

If the flow of God was with Lee, Lee sure tainted that flow with his lust for money. I mean, selling the Life-Studies? What's that about, but money, money, money.

TAS wasn't caught up in that.... So I posit that, the real flow remained with TAS, and the real flow can't be cornered, like Lee acted like it could be. Unlike TAS Lee was a megalomanic.

kisstheson · 07-17-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

But no matter what Lee has to say about TAS, in my estimation TAS was much more true to his Christian teachings than Lee was to his own, and in his humilty before the Lord too.

This can clearly be seen in the publishing of both men, and how they contrast. Lee copyrights all his material (have you ever been on a LSM site, where they say it's copyrighted even for personal use - and then your public IP is posted, as a warning that they can find you?)

But TAS wouldn't allow his works to be copyrighted. He presented them to all the saints, and for any use whatsoever. This is how a proper Christian, one that's not worshiping mammon, should act.

TAS wasn't caught up in that.... So I posit that, the real flow remained with TAS, and the real flow can't be cornered, like Lee acted like it could be. Unlike TAS Lee was a megalomanic.

Dear brother awareness,

I share many of your feelings and concerns. For the sake of their own testimony, I beg the brothers at LSM to consider how bad that warning message looks on the bottom of the screen when viewing LSM's on-line publications. They are certainly well within their legal rights to post such a warning, but it really does look tacky. It definitely sends the wrong message. Dear LSM brothers - I beg you, please reconsider your ways. Also, to listen to most LSM conference and training audio messages, one must pay a monthly subscription fee. On top of that, one must pay for a license for most messages, and this license has to be renewed after a certain length of time. O, dear brothers!

Contrast LSM's approach with that taken by TAS and the web site http://austin-sparks.net. According to this site, "He [TAS] was insistent that his writings and tapes should not be copyrighted and as a result they are still freely available today and can be distributed in whatever way God leads." All the messages on this site can be downloaded for free. No licenses are involved. This includes both the audio messages and the written messages.

But wait . . . there's more!

Free TAS books can be ordered from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK. They even pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
Free TAS audio tapes can be ordered from "Sparks Tape Ministry" in Sugarland, TX. Again, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
The dear ones who run the austin-sparks.net web site will send you a DVD with the entire contents of the web site free upon request. As always, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.

And, most importantly and most precious of all:

"Based in Honor Oak, London, TAS (as he was affectionately known) was not lacking in opposition and rejection to himself and his ministry in the denominational circles of the day, he felt he should neither defend himself nor promote himself. Something which becomes clear when reading the writings of T. Austin-Sparks is that very little information is given about himself or his personal life; instead the focus is consistently upon Christ as his (and our) Life. Your attention is continually directed away from the messenger to the One Who is the Message: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. (2 Cor 4:5)."

Thank you, dear Lord Jesus, for the example and pattern set forth by this precious servant of yours.

awareness · 07-17-2009, 08:29 PM

Yeah see brother kiss, this is what I mean when I say the flow went with TAS. The flow is not some outward show, like Lee obviously thought, but was something hidden, and humble, quiet and private. But most of all the flow is authentic ; that is it is found in those that are authentic. And TAS was authentic, or as authentic as men can be before the Lord.

Lee's flow was a showy flow. In the end, TAS's flow was of the Lord, but Lee's flow was of man.

I'm reading the thesis that can be found on this listserv, entitled, "1968 Thesis-Full Version.pdf," and it's plain that it was Lee's organizational skills that built the church there, and here in the states. That's why Lee had to take tighter and tighter control of the LC, and make extremely exagerated claims, such as : "I am the oracle ; I am the apostle ; I am the authority, of God on the earth." Lee was certain that the LC movement wouldn't make it without him. The Blended Brothers clearly feel the same way.

Where is the submission to the Lord building the church? Why does there have to be a submission to Lee, and his ministry?

Clearly because they lack the faith that the Lord can do it.

And yet, the Lord is doing it. In my heart, and the heart of many that have never heard of the LC, Lee, or Nee.

The idea that the Lord has lost the church, and WE must recover it, is foolishness. It belittles the Lord, and profanes his ability to build his church. It's really a small faith that thinks these things.

Harold

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear brother awareness,

I share many of your feelings and concerns. For the sake of their own testimony, I beg the brothers at LSM to consider how bad that warning message looks on the bottom of the screen when viewing LSM's on-line publications. They are certainly well within their legal rights to post such a warning, but it really does look tacky. It definitely sends the wrong message. Dear LSM brothers - I beg you, please reconsider your ways. Also, to listen to most LSM conference and training audio messages, one must pay a monthly subscription fee. On top of that, one must pay for a license for most messages, and this license has to be renewed after a certain length of time. O, dear brothers!

Contrast LSM's approach with that taken by TAS and the web site http://austin-sparks.net. According to this site, "He [TAS] was insistent that his writings and tapes should not be copyrighted and as a result they are still freely available today and can be distributed in whatever way God leads." All the messages on this site can be downloaded for free. No licenses are involved. This includes both the audio messages and the written messages.

But wait . . . there's more!

Free TAS books can be ordered from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK. They even pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
Free TAS audio tapes can be ordered from "Sparks Tape Ministry" in Sugarland, TX. Again, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
The dear ones who run the austin-sparks.net web site will send you a DVD with the entire contents of the web site free upon request. As always, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.

And, most importantly and most precious of all:

"Based in Honor Oak, London, TAS (as he was affectionately known) was not lacking in opposition and rejection to himself and his ministry in the denominational circles of the day, he felt he should neither defend himself nor promote himself. Something which becomes clear when reading the writings of T. Austin-Sparks is that very little information is given about himself or his personal life; instead the focus is consistently upon Christ as his (and our) Life. Your attention is continually directed away from the messenger to the One Who is the Message: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. (2 Cor 4:5)."

Thank you, dear Lord Jesus, for the example and pattern set forth by this precious servant of yours.

kisstheson · 07-18-2009, 05:48 AM

Hello dear brother awareness,

Interestingly enough, TAS's mention of the experience of the Lord withdrawing and not being able to sense the Lord's presence is found in Message #7, which is exactly the message where I left off almost a year ago.

TAS mentions this experience is a very general way. While there are no details given, the listener/reader can tell that TAS is most definitely speaking from personal experience. In fact, TAS stated right up front that his whole burden in these messages was to speak words from deep experience, to speak of those lessons which he had learned first-hand from the Lord. These are his words (emphasis mine):

Quote:

"The Bible shows what a wonderful thing it is to be in the presence of God. Oh, when the Lord is present, what a blessed thing it is. And the most terrible thing that the Bible shows is for the Lord to withdraw Himself from men. I expect all of us here know something about that. I mean that the most difficult thing in our experience is not to sense the Presence of the Lord. If, when we have a day, when it seems that the Lord is far away, that is a very very hard day. When we have a day, when we realize the Presence of the Lord, that is the best day in our life. You remember the Lord's servant of old says, "If Thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence." He could not contemplate going out without God. The Lord says, "My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest." And so they were able to go on."

Ohio · 07-18-2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

For the sake of their own testimony, I beg the brothers at LSM to consider how bad that warning message looks on the bottom of the screen when viewing LSM's on-line publications. They are certainly well within their legal rights to post such a warning, but it really does look tacky. It definitely sends the wrong message. Dear LSM brothers - I beg you, please reconsider your ways.

And, most importantly and most precious of all:

"Based in Honor Oak, London, TAS (as he was affectionately known) was not lacking in opposition and rejection to himself and his ministry in the denominational circles of the day, he felt he should neither defend himself nor promote himself.

Brother KTS, thanks for the info on obtaining the ministry of TAS. It's just amazing to see how all of those who make his ministry available ... have the same heart that he has ... how wonderful.

As you have written, LSM's threatening policies at their on-line publications site, however, is a direct reflection of the minister they are promoting.

In the LC's, TAS and Ingalls were condemned like no others ... sort of like the way Darby and the exclusives condemned George Muller like no other. The ministry of Muller must be more excellent, look at how Darby smeared his name. The ministry of TAS must be more excellent, look at how WL smeared his name.

What a contrast seen in the attitudes of TAS and WL. TAS felt "he should neither defend himself nor promote himself." On the contrary, for many years I was troubled by WL's bellicose attitude (I have new missiles to launch at poor, poor Christianity.") He was incessantly promoting himself and defending himself.

I remember seeing a chart one time which documented all the times LSM had threatened legal action. I couldn't believe it. I was always told that the only legal action LSM ever took was against those post-Jonestown thrillers Mindbenders and God-Men.

Perhaps most troubling to me was the realization I had when I stopped serving in the LC. At that time I knew only a small fraction of what I have learned since about LSM. But ... one day I realized that there is a systemic disease that runs all thru LSM and the LC's ... they don't treat people well, and the program often produces bullies out of beloved brothers. It took me a long time to realize that "beloved Brother Lee" was the source of this disease.

kisstheson · 07-18-2009, 07:10 AM

Hello dear ones, beloved ones of God,

Did TAS permanently lose the 'flow' from God once the plane he was on left Taipei in March of 1957? As discussed in post # 68, TAS apparently told WL in August of 1958 that the ‘flow’ from God had left him [TAS], and it had not returned, right up until that very day (i.e. August of 1958). In that post, I stated that I believed TAS was under the discipline of the Lord due to his not being discerning enough regarding the divided situation in Taiwan. While TAS should have realized more about the real situation in Taiwan, I believe the words he spoke at that time were true and needed to be heard by WL. We talk about TAS losing the 'flow' from God, but we forget that TAS's worst fears regarding how the "ground of the church" teaching would lead to narrowness and exclusiveness were realized in the terrible split in 1961 which divided "The Little Flock" into two pieces. O Lord, have mercy! What a terrible thing that was!

The question remains: Did TAS permanently lose the 'flow' from God when he left Taipei in 1957? Let's examine TAS's own words in these messages spoken in the Philippines in 1964. I have only examined TAS's speaking through message #7, and there are 42 messages in total.

Quote:

"I have received quite a number of pressing invitations to come to Manila for nearly two years past. During that time, the invitations have become stronger and stronger. Perhaps you wonder why I have waited for nearly two years . . . You know, dear friends, we are the prisoners of Jesus Christ. We cannot go where we would like to go. And we cannot move when we would like to move. When we made Jesus "Lord," we made Him "Lord" of all our movements and all our time . . . The Lord knows all about the people's invitations. But the Lord says, "Not now. I have My time for that." . . . We are here. At last, we are here. And that is not because of the pressing invitation, that is because as we continually waited on the Lord, we had the sense that the Lord was saying, "Now is the time."

Quote:

"And as soon as we felt that the Lord's time had come, we began to get those various tokens from the Lord which confirmed that . . . I went to the Lord and asked Him for a word for me. I said, now Lord, it is very important that you give me a word to go on. One morning I was reading my Bible, I was reading a chapter that I know very well, I was reading chapter fifty-two of the prophecies of Isaiah. I did not know that I was going to get the Lord's answer to my prayer in that chapter. But as I read on, I came to this verse, and it was as though the Lord said, 'That is My word for you over Manila.' And the words are these: "The Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your reward'' (Isa. 52:12)."

Quote:

"When I was thinking and praying about this time this evening, and asking the Lord for just a little word to give you, there came into my heart the first words of Paul, in the First Letter to the Corinthians, I will just read those words to you. "Paul, called an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours." It is the last part of that verse which is very much in my heart, "With all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours."

Quote:

"For some weeks before I knew that I was coming to Manila, the Lord was speaking to me about a certain matter. And then when I knew that I was coming, the Lord indicated that that was the matter about which He wanted me to speak to you. I feel that it is the most important matter in the Christian life. I hope that you will take note of that statement. What is the most important thing in the life of a Christian? It is: 'SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.'"

Based upon these experiences from late 1963 and early 1964, it would appear that TAS was definitely once again experiencing the 'flow' from God. TAS experienced the Lord's restraining hand, just like Paul and those with him in Acts 16. TAS experienced a real rhema word from the Lord. He experienced an instant word. And he experienced a deep burden being placed in his heart by the Lord. So, I ask you, dear ones, based upon TAS's own speaking, did TAS permanently lose the 'flow' from God in 1957?

awareness · 07-18-2009, 08:14 AM

Code:

KTS:
Based upon these experiences from late 1963 and early 1964, it would appear that TAS was definitely once again experiencing the 'flow' from God.

KTS, from a strictly objective point of view, anyone that thinks they can control the flow of God has to be one of the most arrogant persons in the world.

And once they make such a proclamation, then the seed of arrogance begins to grow. And after awhile they will then be saying things like "I am the oracle," "I am the apostle," "I am the authority."

All of this will of course be coming from the growth of the seed of arrogance. And what is produced will be self effort.

Can a man grab the wind? Can a man control the wind?

It appears to me that TAs was honest. And how many of us, if honest, has to admit that sometimes we don't sense the presence of God.

Could Lee be that honest. Could he ever admit that the Lord seemed to him to withdraw Himself from Lee? You know it happened. It happens to everyone that seeks to follow the Lord.

I say, because TAS was in honest person, that makes him more ture in his walk with the Lord than those that can't admit that they sometimes misstep, or fail to sense the presence. TAS wasn't a pretender. Lee was.

So therefore, the real flow was with TAS, and the fake flow was with Lee.

As I stated, Lee's measure of the flow was outward. If his movement was growing, that was all the proof Lee needed to claim the flow was with him.

But how arrogant that is! I bring someone to the Lord, which is really the Lord's doing, and I then claim the flow is with me.

This is why I say Lee was a megalomaniac. Lee was ambitious from the get-go. The fruit of his ambition became more and more obvious as time went on.

kisstheson · 07-18-2009, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

What a contrast seen in the attitudes of TAS and WL. TAS felt "he should neither defend himself nor promote himself." On the contrary, for many years I was troubled by WL's bellicose attitude (I have new missiles to launch at poor, poor Christianity.") He was incessantly promoting himself and defending himself.

I remember seeing a chart one time which documented all the times LSM had threatened legal action. I couldn't believe it. I was always told that the only legal action LSM ever took was against those post-Jonestown thrillers Mindbenders and God-Men.

Perhaps most troubling to me was the realization I had when I stopped serving in the LC. At that time I knew only a small fraction of what I have learned since about LSM. But ... one day I realized that there is a systemic disease that runs all thru LSM and the LC's ... they don't treat people well, and the program often produces bullies out of beloved brothers. It took me a long time to realize that "beloved Brother Lee" was the source of this disease.

Amen, dear brother Ohio.

If there is one service I believe TAS' ministry can perform for those who have left the LSM LC, it is this: TAS presents an entirely different, and much more Christ-like, attitude towards his ministry. TAS never exercised "the arm of the flesh" to promote or defend his ministry. He knew that the Lord had entrusted him with a ministry and consequently, as he was faithful to carry out his ministry, he cast everything upon the Lord, fully trusting the Lord to bless, to vindicate, and to defend in His own way. I am so thankful to the Lord for such a beautiful, scriptural, pattern as that lived out by dear brother TAS. What a healthy pattern for the flock!

I look to our dear Lord Jesus Christ to bless this thread. May He use it to help so many of us unlearn the self-promotion, the self-defense, and the bellicosity we picked up during our time in the LSM LC. May He perform a deep work in all of us to undo the heart of a bully and in its place build up the heart of a self-sacrificing servant. May His heart of love become our heart.

Dear ones, may He save us from contradicting with our lives the words which we speak with our mouths. Dear beloved ones, may He have much mercy on us all!

Ohio · 07-18-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Can a man grab the wind? Can a man control the wind?

I long have protested the accusations of "modalism" regarding the Trinity teachings of WL, but here I have to say that we in the LC's were definitely taught a concept shall I call "flow-modalism." Flowdalism?

Flowdalism builds the underpinnings for the concept of "the minister of the age." Flowdalism basicaly says that God can only flow in one minister on earth at a time. All the teachings we received about Peter the fisherman, Paul the tent maker, and John the net mender provided so-called scriptural credence to Flowdalism. Church history was then manipulated to provide all the necessary support for the concepts of recovery flowdalism subsequent to the RCC dark ages. Think about the flow lineage we were taught -- Luther - Guyon - Zinzendorf - Darby - Nee - Lee - We -- did I miss anybody? (Read the book Vision of the Age.)

Flowdalism says that God could really only speak His "up-to-date" word thru one minister at a time. All other contemporaries had to go to such a minister for the "flow." In the 1st century, ones like James, Barnabas, and Apollos should have "lined up" under Paul, because he alone had the flow. In the 20th century, TAS lost the flow supposedly because the flow was passed from Nee to Lee.

Does this sound crazy? How exclusive could we be? Thousands in the LC's today, like me at one time, believe this wholeheartedly. Flowdalism for them has risen to the status of "the common faith." I was once a staunch advocate of flowdalism. I am now a recovering flowdalist. My sickness has gone into remission.

kisstheson · 07-18-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I long have protested the accusations of "modalism" regarding the Trinity teachings of WL, but here I have to say that we in the LC's were definitely taught a concept shall I call "flow-modalism." Flowdalism?

Flowdalism says that God could really only speak His "up-to-date" word thru one minister at a time. All other contemporaries had to go to such a minister for the "flow." In the 1st century, ones like James, Barnabas, and Apollos should have "lined up" under Paul, because he alone had the flow. In the 20th century, TAS lost the flow supposedly because the flow was passed from Nee to Lee.

Does this sound crazy? How exclusive could we be? Thousands in the LC's today, like me at one time, believe this wholeheartedly. Flowdalism for them has risen to the status of "the common faith." I was once a staunch advocate of flowdalism. I am now a recovering flowdalist. My sickness has gone into remission.

O my dear brother Ohio! "Flowdalism"!!

I suppose this thread was getting rather heavy and needed some good comic relief! Your new term caught me completely off-guard and I literally laughed out loud!

Of course, as you point out, dear brother Ohio, there is a very serious, sober, side to this matter as well. "Flowdalism" most definitely leads to exclusivity because it causes us to look down upon - even to completely disregard - every other minister of Christ besides the one who is supposedly "the unique minister of the age". O God, have mercy on us and keep our sickness always in remission.

TAS's ministry, so absolutely centered on Christ, so full of emphasis regarding the importance of inward reality, was desperately needed as a balancing word in the LC's for decades. How utterly sad that TAS's rich ministry became a victim of "flowdalism".

awareness · 07-18-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have to say that we in the LC's were definitely taught a concept shall I call "flow-modalism." Flowdalism?

Does this sound crazy? How exclusive could we be? Thousands in the LC's today, like me at one time, believe this wholeheartedly. Flowdalism for them has risen to the status of "the common faith." I was once a staunch advocate of flowdalism. I am now a recovering flowdalist. My sickness has gone into remission.

Hear! Hear! Let it be known to the far reaches of the earth, and to all the four corners of the world that, OHIO is the first to coin the word Flowdalism (google it to find no such word). And we should submit it to the American Dialect Society. that awarded the word of the year, back in 2005, to Stephen Colbert's "truthiness." Cuz the word is right up there with truthiness.

But beyond that, Ohio’s inspiration from above, has also identified the very cornerstone of the foundation of Witness Lee’s movement.

Lee may not have been a Modalist, but there’s no denying that he was a Flowdalist. Not even Ron Kangas can refute it.

So I’m glad that TAS didn’t latch onto Lee’s ministry. To me, without proof even, seems he knew something was awry with Lee, and was smart to not be a part of it. TAS didn’t need an intermediary to Christ, like Lee assumed he himself was. Not at all.

So Lee, who was a dyed-in-the-wool Flowdalist, could only see it one way : thru his Flowdalist eyes. His eyes weren’t open to see God working in others lives and hearts, and that His flow was there also, in others.

In fact, when Lee failed to see the Lord’s working and flow in others, he was dismissing the Lord Himself flowing in the members of His body.

And this is the epitome of arrogance, and egotism, that’s blinded by a lust for power. Cornering the flow of the Lord was Lee’s way of enhancing his power, enhancing his position on a podium above all others. The fruit of the tree is obvious, to those with eyes to see.

And it’s not that the flow of God wasn’t with Lee. The flow of God is wherever hearts are open and willing to surrender to God. In truth the flow of God went both ways, with Lee and TAS, and the flow was working all over the place, even where Lee wasn’t known of.

Lee embrace a small God, that only flowed thru him. Everywhere else was fallen Christianity to Lee, because he mistakenly, or maliciously maybe, beleived he was God's special person, that had a corner on God. Foolishness!

Yet I’ve found God working in many other hearts, that show no interest in Lee when I point him out to them.

kisstheson · 07-18-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Hear! Hear! Let it be known to the far reaches of the earth, and to all the four corners of the world that, OHIO is the first to coin the word Flowdalism (google it to find no such word). And we should submit it to the American Dialect Society. that awarded the word of the year, back in 2005, to Stephen Colbert's "truthiness." Cuz the word is right up there with truthiness.

But beyond that, Ohio’s inspiration from above, has also identified the very cornerstone of the foundation of Witness Lee’s movement.

Lee may not have been a Modalist, but there’s no denying that he was a Flowdalist. Not even Ron Kangas can refute it.

So I’m glad that TAS didn’t latch onto Lee’s ministry. To me, without proof even, seems he knew something was awry with Lee, and was smart to not be a part of it. TAS didn’t need an intermediary to Christ, like Lee assumed he himself was. Not at all.

So Lee, who was a dyed-in-the-wool Flowdalist, could only see it one way : thru his Flowdalist eyes. His eyes weren’t open to see God working in others lives and hearts, and that His flow was there also, in others.

Dear beloved brothers awareness and Ohio,

Yes! We were right here, present at the original public unveiling of the term “Flowdalism”! Wow! We were right here when “Flowdalism” was first coined!

As dear brother awareness stated, we are touching upon a very core issue, a cornerstone issue. “Flowdalism” surely had a much greater impact on our mindset while in the LC compared to the impact of so-called "modalist" teachings. By exposing “flowdalism”, we are laying the ax at the very root of the tree. It was the whole mindset of “flowdalism” which worked so terribly to warp and deform our humanity during our time in the LSM LC. It was “flowdalism” which made us so exclusive, so proud, so religiously jealous, and so dismissive of everyone else.

By having our eyes opened to see the ugliness of “flowdalism”, real repentance can take place, and this repentance will make a way for the Great Physician’s healing work to begin in our hearts.

May we all, in Christ, “get through” on this point and come out on the other side as ones who are fully healed and restored, as ones who can appreciate the flow of God coming forth from the hearts of any truly surrendered servants of Christ.

Ohio · 07-19-2009, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee may not have been a Modalist, but there’s no denying that he was a Flowdalist. Not even Ron Kangas can refute it.

Lee embraced a small God, that only flowed thru him. Everywhere else was fallen Christianity to Lee, because he mistakenly, or maliciously maybe, beleived he was God's special person, that had a corner on God. Foolishness!

Brother Awareness, I think you're on to something here with this new word "flowdalism." I too, though, at one time, the staunchest of hard-core flowdalists, could not help but wonder deep down how "small" our God had become. His entire administration had to operate thru WL! Yet I still believed in flowdalism! I believed that God had only one oracle, one spokesman, one unique minister of the age, at any one time, by which He could further His economy.

Yes, of course, there may be other "sincere and decent" men of God out there in "poor, poor Christianity," but they could not receive "fresh light" nor an "up-to-date" speaking from the Lord to further His move on earth for His economy in His Recovery. "God always had one man ..." was the watchword of the Recovery. Just look at the Bible -- it's there on every page! Can't you see it? Just look at church history, it's there every where you look! Can't you see it! Have you "seen the vision?"

How small God becomes when we package Him under one special leader. He would never settle for that! There were 12 original Apostles with Jesus, and except for Peter, James, and John, we know little about the other nine. Their stories have just not been told. One day we may learn them! They did not have a "Luke" with them to record their travels. But God knows them! I am not diminishing one thing that Paul accomplished, rather just pointing out the obvious.

But if someone began teaching this in the LC, then LSM would consider this "teaching differently," and a strong accusation from a rebellious brother. I noticed that Toronto even had messages on Barnabas and Apollos ... God forbid! How dare they? These brothers with Apostle Paul really were not "one with the ministry."

Perhaps this is the greatest absurdity of the whole LC movement -- packaging God. Where were we back in the 80's "new way?" Can you believe that God's entire operation on earth was administered thru the ministry "office" -- a profligate man named Philip Lee? Unbelievable! I daresay that the singlemost preeminent requirement into today's "blended brotherhood" was how one reacted to that nonsense.

kisstheson · 07-19-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Awareness, I think you're on to something here with this new word "flowdalism." I too, though, at one time, the staunchest of hard-core flowdalists, could not help but wonder deep down how "small" our God had become. His entire administration had to operate thru WL! Yet I still believed in flowdalism! I believed that God had only one oracle, one spokesman, one unique minister of the age, at any one time, by which He could further His economy.

Hello dear brother Ohio,

My family and I just returned home after a full day of fellowship with some dear brothers and sisters in Christ. I had a really neat experience today which is related to our recent discussion on this thread.

There was a brother at the gathering whom I had never met before. He and I began talking across the table, after feasting on a truly delicious love feast. It turns out this brother has read just about every single TAS book ever published by Emmanuel Church (the ones who make TAS books available for free). He also has listened to just about every single TAS sermon available on austiin-sparks.net. Talking with this brother reminded me that the flow from TAS truly originated with the Lord and is for His whole Body. I have found the same thing to be true of the flow from other gifted ministers of Christ in the second-half of the twentieth century, such as Ian Thomas, Bakht Singh, F.F. Bruce, Roy Hession, Basilea Schlink, Stephen Kaung, etc.

"Flowdalism" robs us of the riches from these other flows of God and causes us to be "of" one man only. Thank God for His Word: "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Prov. 24:6b).

Ohio · 07-19-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

"Flowdalism" robs us of the riches from these other flows of God and causes us to be "of" one man only. Thank God for His Word: "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Prov. 24:6b).

How true, brother KTS.

The New Testament has a corollary to this verse in Proverbs in which Paul "killed" all these human "manipulations" with the wonderful phrase "all are yours, and you are Christ's."

UntoHim · 07-20-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

"Flowdalism" robs us of the riches from these other flows of God and causes us to be "of" one man only. Thank God for His Word: "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Prov. 24:6b).

Excellent observation! Also this is a matter of trusting and following God. When the children of Israel went on the move they were not following Moses. Moses was a wise and godly man, and he knew the eventual goal (the good land) but God provided the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night as day-to-day guidance. When God's people follow a man and man-made "flows" it is usually a matter of impatience and the results are often disastrous. This is why it is so very important for us to follow the Word of God and not the teachings of man.

aron · 07-20-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

When God's people follow a man and man-made "flows" it is usually a matter of impatience and the results are often disastrous. This is why it is so very important for us to follow the Word of God and not the teachings of man.

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it was good for me, a reprobate and wild sinner, to have some structure when I came out of the world. On the other hand, the structure eventually became a cage.

So maybe God has allowed human efforts, for a temporary prop, as the believers gradually mature and sink into the reality of the teachings of Jesus, and now He is calling us out of them and into the Spirit's leading. It is a matter of maturity. Flowdalism keeps the believers in a perpetual state of infancy, forever waiting for the latest edict to arrive from headquarters.

That this "one trumpet" thing is error is clearly revealed to me by the teachings of Jesus. He said, "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." Instead, whenever the Flowdalists do something, they have to sound a trumpet from the pulpit at Headquarters. In so doing, they play right into Satan's hands, and their various "flows" dry up into nothing.

Jesus recognized Satan as "the ruler of this world" (John 12), and He conducted a marvelous, and ultimately successful, spiritual guerilla warfare. The established "church" has lost this path. They instead try to conduct warfare on the open battlefield, and they lose every time. But maybe the Flowdalists don't care: as long as they have a captive audience for the HWMR, they are content.

kisstheson · 07-20-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it was good for me, a reprobate and wild sinner, to have some structure when I came out of the world. On the other hand, the structure eventually became a cage.

So maybe God has allowed human efforts, for a temporary prop, as the believers gradually mature and sink into the reality of the teachings of Jesus, and now He is calling us out of them and into the Spirit's leading. It is a matter of maturity. Flowdalism keeps the believers in a perpetual state of infancy, forever waiting for the latest edict to arrive from headquarters.

Jesus recognized Satan as "the ruler of this world" (John 12), and He conducted a marvelous, and ultimately successful, spiritual guerilla warfare. The established "church" has lost this path. They instead try to conduct warfare on the open battlefield, and they lose every time. But maybe the Flowdalists don't care: as long as they have a captive audience for the HWMR, they are content.

I hear what you are saying, dear brother alan, I really do.

My prayer is that LSM would be humble enough to learn from their past mistakes and to find a way to provide the structure needed by babes in Christ without stunting the growth of the other members. Using HWMR as an example, providing excerpts from other ministries would be an excellent way to provide structure without incorporating the leaven of "flowdalism". The recent Summer Training covered "The Crystallization-Studyof the Gospel of God". OK, I admit Nee and Lee shared some very helpful things related to this subject. But did these two really have the final word on every aspect of the Gospel of God? Are their words always the most enlightening and the most helpful regarding all the aspects of the Gospel of God? Might not some portions from dear ones like John Wesley, Hudson Taylor, D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, George Mueller, Bakht Singh, TAS, etc. be extremely helpful as well? A big portion of HWMR could still be dedicated to Lee (with the usual tiny smattering of Nee), but portions from other dear ministers of Christ should be included whenever appropriate. Portions from other ministers of Christ would be a big step towards saving our precious brothers and sisters in the LSM-loyal LC from the unscriptural situation of being "of Lee".

By the way, the best "morning devotional" book I know of is His Victorious Indwelling by dear brother Nick Harrison. This book is a collection of 366 daily meditations and quotes which explore Christ’s victory and how it can be lived through us. These daily portions are taken from the ministries of many, many men and women of God such as Oswald Chambers, A.W. Tozer, Hannah Whittal Smith, Watchman Nee, T. Austin-Sparks, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie ten Boom, John Wesley, Stephen Kaung, George Mueller, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Hudson Taylor, etc. Such a book is an incredibly powerful antidote to the "flowdalism" we were immersed in.

Former LC member · 07-20-2009, 01:14 PM

It is good for us to have a long and hilarious laugh. Vanity vanity all is vanity, saith the preacher! Yes, I totally agree that this term describes the LC so well. And did we get so vain about being in the latest flow. I am so glad to be out amongst ordinary Christians and learning to be humble. 'Whoever humbles himself as this little child is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven'.Mathew 18:4

kisstheson · 07-20-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna Tysoe

It is good for us to have a long and hilarious laugh. Vanity vanity all is vanity, saith the preacher! Yes, I totally agree that this term describes the LC so well. And did we get so vain about being in the latest flow. I am so glad to be out amongst ordinary Christians and learning to be humble. 'Whoever humbles himself as this little child is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven'.Mathew 18:4

Amen, dear sister. Yes, it is so good for us to have a long and hilarious laugh! I have been desiring to resume the main burden of this thread from where I left off back in Post #63, but all this other fellowship has been so enjoyable that I now hope it won't stop. "Flowdalism"!!

It still makes me laugh. I do believe that this newly coined term is going to be a "keeper".

Isn't it wonderful to be out amongst all our brothers and sisters in Christ? I too find that my greatest need since leaving the LC is gaining genuine humility. I have so much to un-learn and so much to learn in this area. I definitely do not want to over-elevate dear brother TAS, but I must testify. TAS's ministry really helps expose my lack of humility since TAS, more than any other Christian author I have ever read, exposes the lack of Christ in my daily living.

Thank you for the verse from Matthew 18, dear sister. This really is a crucial matter. "Flowdalism" definitely kept me proud and exclusive. Now that I am free from an environment of "flowdalism", both the desire and the willingness to humble myself as a little child are growing stronger and stronger within me.

"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." Amen!

YP0534 · 07-21-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, of course, there may be other "sincere and decent" men of God out there in "poor, poor Christianity," but they could not receive "fresh light" nor an "up-to-date" speaking from the Lord to further His move on earth for His economy in His Recovery.

I think the operative word here is "could".

The root of the word "religion" means "to bind." It's a method of putting God in a box.

I'll testify even today that in my experience there isn't an abundance of help available in general Christianity. I get depressed sometimes in Christian bookstores by some of the things they sell to my brothers and sisters under the guise of it being "Christian" and there really isn't any insight or ministry to at least balance that junk, if not root it out and expose it as the work of the flesh that it is.

But to say that none other "could" share the "fresh light" or "up to date" speaking from the Lord is just religious gobbledygook.

Balaam's donkey "could" have just the word we need and in fact, the biggest problem with "flowism", in my opinion, isn't that it's single sourced (which is admittedly a big problem) but that it's target isn't every believer in general but only those who have joined the special club.

A "one publication" rule pretends to be a salvation to "avoid confusion" when in fact it is a religious edict that avoids competition. But God sends Balaam's donkey along when it pleases Him to do so and the front side of the "flowism" problem is gone.

I guess I'm harkening back to my recent arguments that there are no leaders without followers when I say this, but, those who self-identify by their relationship to this narrow concept of ministry, ministry to the select only, are the ones who err when they declare they are "of Paul" or "of Apollos". Not that a "flowism" leader doesn't have a large blame for the ministry that merely builds up an organization, but before the Lord, no one has the right to say "don't read TAS" or "don't read Penn-Lewis" or such to me or anyone else in furtherance of their "flowist" designs except that I willingly receive that from them.

If we are to receive all believers, we must receive all their diverse and imperfect speakings with discernment in love. We all see in part only. An objective measure such as "does this build the believers together in the assembly?" is an important help, but even that can be too strictly applied and quench the Spirit.

If anyone happens to visit your assembly from a dusty Galilean highway and speaks in the name of the Lord, you may confidently receive him in fellowship and gain from him such portion as he has been given. There's no need to consult an approved speaker list from headquarters in the functioning reality of the living Body of Christ. That Paul expressly recommended some was no bar to others.

And that there is but one New Testament ministry doesn't mean that there are no longer "diverse ministries" and only one publishing house.

Don't you believe it.

signed,

Balaam's donkey

aron · 07-21-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

to listen to most LSM conference and training audio messages, one must pay a monthly subscription fee. On top of that, one must pay for a license for most messages, and this license has to be renewed after a certain length of time.

Contrast LSM's approach with that taken by TAS ... "He [TAS] was insistent that his writings and tapes should not be copyrighted and as a result they are still freely available today and can be distributed in whatever way God leads." All the messages on this site can be downloaded for free. No licenses are involved. This includes both the audio messages and the written messages.

I am concerned that a precedent is being set here which doesn't bode well for the long and illustrious tradition of selling the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, good news in exchange for lucre even predates the NT gospel tradition -- it's roots can be seen in the blessings and cursings for sale by Balaam (Num 22-31). Then there is Simon the magician, who sees the opportunity for hucksterism (Acts 8). Then we have the nice rhyme by Johannes Tetzel, selling indulgences to raise money for St. Peter's in Rome, "When the coin in the offering box rings, the soul to heaven springs".

Of course, good news sold for cash really took off with the modern devices of dissemination, such as the printing press, then radio and television and now the internet. The televangelist was a fixture in the American culture in the late 20th century. Remember Oral Roberts? God told him that if he didn't raise $8 million quick He'd call him home. Roberts put out the plea and the faithful ponied up $9 million plus. Roberts' life was spared.

The LSM is merely continuing this long and venerable tradition. In fact, they have a nice improvement on it with the "one trumpet" scheme, in which only one ministry is allowed to disseminate good news for cash. All others are banned. So I think they are to be congratulated on a nice arrangement.

Now you have someone giving away the good news. Terrible! Brothers, I implore you to think about the ramifications of this activity. Think of the livelihood of all the "full timers" being jeapardized by such activity. God forbid that they should have to go out and get a job like everybody else.

"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." 2 Thess. 3:10

kisstheson · 07-21-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM is merely continuing this long and venerable tradition. In fact, they have a nice improvement on it with the "one trumpet" scheme, in which only one ministry is allowed to disseminate good news for cash. All others are banned. So I think they are to be congratulated on a nice arrangement.

Now you have someone giving away the good news. Terrible! Brothers, I implore you to think about the ramifications of this activity. Think of the livelihood of all the "full timers" being jeopardized by such activity. God forbid that they should have to go out and get a job like everybody else.

"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." 2 Thess. 3:10

I hear ya, dear brother alan! This TAS web site and the associated TAS ministries are a shocking trend indeed! Written material that is not even copyrighted!

Written and spoken material that can be freely downloaded!

Free books (they even pay shipping)! Free audio tapes (they even pay shipping)!

Free e-magazine! Free DVD of the contents of the entire web site!

LSM is definitely going "against the tide" on this one, and not in a positive way. There are so many web sites of Christian ministries, web sites of various assemblies, etc. all over the world who make their written, audio, and video content available for free. The TAS site is by far the most generous I have ever seen, but also worthy of mention are:

ministrymessages.org (Free listening and downloading of audio messages spoken by Titus Chu and other dear brothers in the GLA, plus free viewing and downloading of written messages)
christiantapeministry.com (Free viewing/listening and downloading of audio and video messages from TAS, Stephen Kaung, Devern Fromke, etc.)
sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads (Free viewing/listening and downloading of audio and video messages from TAS, A.W. Tozer, Ian Thomas, etc., plus free viewing and downloading of written messages from many ministers of Christ who lived before the age of audio recording)

kisstheson · 07-21-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YP0534

But to say that none other "could" share the "fresh light" or "up to date" speaking from the Lord is just religious gobbledygook.

Balaam's donkey "could" have just the word we need and in fact, the biggest problem with "flowism", in my opinion, isn't that it's single sourced (which is admittedly a big problem) but that it's target isn't every believer in general but only those who have joined the special club.

A "one publication" rule pretends to be a salvation to "avoid confusion" when in fact it is a religious edict that avoids competition. But God sends Balaam's donkey along when it pleases Him to do so and the front side of the "flowism" problem is gone.

If we are to receive all believers, we must receive all their diverse and imperfect speakings with discernment in love. We all see in part only. An objective measure such as "does this build the believers together in the assembly?" is an important help, but even that can be too strictly applied and quench the Spirit.

And that there is but one New Testament ministry doesn't mean that there are no longer "diverse ministries" and only one publishing house.

Don't you believe it.

signed,

Balaam's donkey

May we all humble ourselves before the Lord and hear our Lord speak through Balaam's donkey! Yes, when it pleases our God He certainly sends Balaam's donkey along and thus takes care of the front side of "flowism"/"flowdalism". The sad fact is, however, that we can be so hard-hearted that we would ignore Balaam's donkey, or worse, quarantine Balaam's donkey.

kisstheson · 07-24-2009, 08:20 PM

OK, dear ones, I am once again picking up the train of thought which I left behind almost a year ago back in post # 63. At that time, the discussion had reached Chapter 7 of the book “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One” Volume One. This book contains the written version of messages spoken by TAS to an assembly of dear believers in Christ located in Manila, the Philippines, back in February and March of 1964.

As I mentioned in one of the first posts in this thread, after I started reading these messages (there are 42 in all) I found out that the dear ones TAS was speaking to were the ones who had split away from Witness Lee during the terrible church-split in Manila back in 1961.

These messages are really precious. It makes me to sad to think that the mature, balanced, viewpoint of TAS was lost to the LC when WL refused to co-work with TAS back in the late 1950’s.

In chapter 7, TAS challenged his listeners to examine the NT to see if they could find any evidence that the apostles were commissioned by the Lord to raise up assemblies/plant churches. TAS was not denying that the assemblies are very practical and very important, rather, he was making the point that in the NT, the commission to the apostles was a lot more Christ-centered than we normally think, and actually had a lot more to do with proclaiming Christ and bringing the person and presence of Christ to people.

In post # 62, the various commissions to the twelve apostles were listed. In post #63 the commission to “the seventy” was given. In this post, we will look at those portions in the NT where the apostle Paul mentions the commissions which came to him from the Lord. I think you will see that TAS is making a very scripturally valid point.

Quote:

“Because of the grace given to me by God that I might be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, a laboring priest of the gospel of God, in order that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, having been sanctified in the Holy Spirit.” (Rom. 15:15b-16)

Quote:

“But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me that I might announce Him as the gospel among the Gentiles” (Gal. 1:15-16a)

Quote:

“To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel.” (Eph. 3:8)

Quote:

“And I said, Who are You, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you persecute. But rise up and stand on your feet; for I have appointed to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen Me and of the things in which I will appear to you; delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles to whom I send you, to open their eyes, to turn then from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.” (Acts 26:15-18)

Quote:

“For Christ did not send me to baptize but to announce the gospel, not in wisdom of speech that the cross of Christ may not be made void.” (1 Cor. 1:17)

kisstheson · 07-25-2009, 11:02 AM

Beloved ones,

Before I move on to Message #8, I wanted to repeat two precious points from Message #7.

The first involves our dear, wonderful, Lord Jesus Christ. It is He who loved us and gave Himself up for us! It is He who saved us! It is He who lives in us! It is He who is transforming us into His own glorious image! It is He who shepherds us and cares for us! It is He who gathers us together! He is our all!

In light of all He is to us, I really like TAS's Christ-centered definition of a local assembly of believers. TAS defines a local assembly of believers in this way:

Quote:

"They are just people gathered into Christ where He Himself is."

The second point involves the fact that in order to have the presence of Christ to the largest degree possible in the midst of an assembly, we must be careful to not make too much of men. Regarding this, TAS says clearly:

Quote:

"To have the Lord in a larger way means having men in a very small way."

awareness · 07-25-2009, 12:03 PM

Balaam's Ass says:
>> Balaam's donkey "could" have just the word we need and in fact, the biggest problem with "flowism", in my opinion, isn't that it's single sourced (which is admittedly a big problem) but that it's target isn't every believer in general but only those who have joined the special club. <<

I understand what you mean, YP, by the stuff found in Christian books stores. Every paradise has a serpent.

Lk 19:39-40 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Sometimes I just want to hear from the stones.

kisstheson · 07-25-2009, 03:42 PM

Precious ones,

One of the Scripture verses which forms the basis for Message # 8 is Matthew 13:51. Jesus has just completed His speaking of the seven kingdom parables. In this verse, He asks His disciples a question and they respond:

Quote:

“Have you understood all these things? They said to Him, Yes.” (Matt. 13:51)

As TAS points out, it is so easy for us human beings to think that we have spiritual understanding when all we have is intellectual knowledge. We can be so full of knowledge and yet be so lacking in true spiritual understanding. Obviously, knowledge in the things of the Lord is not a bad thing in and of itself. Ultimately, however, it is the Spirit who must come in and make all things real to us. Otherwise, we end with knowledge which puffs up. This point is very humbling and very convicting to me.

Going even further, TAS points out that when we attempt to serve the Lord out of intellectual knowledge and natural ability, it may look good for a while, even for a long while. Eventually, however, our daily living catches up with us and exposes our lack. Our daily living can so easily end up denying and contradicting all the “truths” we proclaim with our mouths. When this happens, it is a very sobering time for us and for those around us. Such a time leads to very serious soul-searching questions.

O, how I can be so full of the knowledge which puffs up! O, how my daily living can be so contrary to the things I speak!

This is an exceprt of some of TAS’s speaking related to these topics taken from Message 8:

Quote:

"There is all the difference in the world between knowing it all here, and seeing it with your spiritual eyes. Now I say this is the most solemn thing. One of the most tragic and sad things that has come into my life has been this: I have known people to come and accept all the teaching that we could give, and to profess to believe it, and then to go out and preach it, teaching it in various parts of the world. And if you had seen them and heard them, you would have believed that they knew it all, and then afterward they have so acted as to deny it all. Just to repudiate it all by their conduct and their behavior and by their way of life. I have known that to happen in more than one case, and it leaves you asking very big questions. They seem to have taken it all. They seem to have believed it all. They talk to other people about it everywhere. And then they have taken a course in life which denies the whole thing. And their whole position and teaching afterward is a contradiction of all that they profess to believe."

awareness · 07-26-2009, 07:18 AM

KTS quotes TAS:
>> They seem to have believed it all. They talk to other people about it everywhere. And then they have taken a course in life which denies the whole thing. And their whole position and teaching afterward is a contradiction of all that they profess to believe." <<

I knew of a brother in the LC like this. His name was Witness Lee.

countmeworthy · 07-26-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

...
As TAS points out, it is so easy for us human beings to think that we have spiritual understanding when all we have is intellectual knowledge. We can be so full of knowledge and yet be so lacking in true spiritual understanding. Obviously, knowledge in the things of the Lord is not a bad thing in and of itself. Ultimately, however, it is the Spirit who must come in and make all things real to us. Otherwise, we end with knowledge which puffs up. This point is very humbling and very convicting to me.

Going even further, TAS points out that when we attempt to serve the Lord out of intellectual knowledge and natural ability, it may look good for a while, even for a long while. Eventually, however, our daily living catches up with us and exposes our lack. Our daily living can so easily end up denying and contradicting all the “truths” we proclaim with our mouths. When this happens, it is a very sobering time for us and for those around us. Such a time leads to very serious soul-searching questions.

O, how I can be so full of the knowledge which puffs up! O, how my daily living can be so contrary to the things I speak!

This is an exceprt of some of TAS’s speaking related to these topics taken from Message 8:

Excellent post KTS!!

In the 'church' I frequent, the pastor has been talking about the spirit, soul & body. He is trying to explain the difference between the spirit and the soul. I emphasize TRYING.

This was a most difficult 'concept' to understand when I first got saved...and saved in the LC. We fellowshipped much whether through messages, home gatherings, singing, meetings, conferences about living in our spirit. We got the 'tone' down "perfectly"..to speak from 'deep within'.

In actuality, there was a lot of truth in what we were taught. But few 'got it'....really, really got it. For example, we would read scriptures, 'testify' or 'prophesy' if that what it is called now, read messages together, and pray with one another in that all familiar LC spirit. Some continued in that 'spirit' through out the day. (like me....

I exercised speaking in that tone everywhere I went.) Others seemed to go 'in and out' of the spirit...'In spirit' when reading, praying, fellowshipping, singing... 'out of spirit' when they went about their everyday lives..work, school, etc...

Living in our spirit, like Paul and many of the NT saints did is a process we learn over time, so I'm not coming down on anyone, but I pounce on the arrogant attitude. And the LC leadership, beginning with WL did a very poor job of truly explaining what it is to have true spiritual understanding. Perhaps no one knew how to explain it is GOD the Holy Spirit, who enlightens us and reveals the WORD of GOD (who is Jesus, GOD the SON, of course) to us.

Then...as time went on, many of us saw, what the LSM/LC taught and spoke of what they said was 'the spirit'...was really a different spirit from the Spirit of CHRIST Jesus....imo.
With each passing year, the more I spend time in prayer, praying the Word of God slowly and thoughtfully, 'chewing' the Word, cross-referencing scriptures, seeking WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING, and fellowshipping with the LORD and with His body of believers, the more I'm 'getting it'. I"m sure this is true for every single person here...no matter how different our lives are now away from the LC wineskin.
Recently I told a Christian friend of mine who respects me a lot, it's been quite a spiritual journey for me. In fact, several people (Christians and non) have been asking me where I learned what I know.
I explained I had a WEALTH of spiritual knowledge in me for years, bottled up. I explained for several years, the Lord had me SHUT UP, LISTEN UP and LEARN from my non-LC brethren.
In the last year or so, the Lord has began to 'release me'..to 'teach' others, to explain very basic but extremely important principles of the Word of God because I GET IT now. Some of the basic principles I'm expounding on is the Power of Repentance and the Power of the Blood of Jesus, the power of Sanctification. It's not HEAD KNOWLEDGE I'm sharing with them. In return, I've learned a lot from them too. God also has given me 2 spiritual 'mentors', 'fathers' if you will. I don't even know them personally but love their spirit because they KNOW GOD and the WORD of GOD, JESUS and His Holy Spirit.

I honestly can say I received these foundational truths in my LC tenure.
BUT, through a LOT of personal trials and tribulations, I learned the power of repentance and the power of the Blood of Jesus. So, now, I not only have the scriptures down pact, I have first hand experience.I'm sure MOST of us here, have been down this road...

Thanks again for this excellent post/thread.

kisstheson · 07-29-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

KTS quotes TAS:
>> They seem to have believed it all. They talk to other people about it everywhere. And then they have taken a course in life which denies the whole thing. And their whole position and teaching afterward is a contradiction of all that they profess to believe." <<

I knew of a brother in the LC like this. His name was Witness Lee.

Hello dear brother awareness,

This is why WL and the LC as a whole desperately needed the balance and wisdom of other ministers of Christ like TAS. TAS would have reminded them that ultimately the real issue is a heart which is right before the Lord and which loves the Lord. Without such a heart, all the "high peak" truths remain in the realm of mental understanding and never have the opportunity to produce the powerful transformation in our lives which God intends. O, how the truth must change us! O, how it must deal with us and change us!

How sad it is when the truths we hear puff us up and make us proud and disdainful of our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not the purpose for which God sends forth His Word! The ministries of dear ones like TAS should have been available to serve as a restraint against such things and to re-orient us back to God's goal to head up all things in Christ and to have Christ become All in all.

awareness · 07-29-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

KissTheSon:
>> This is why WL and the LC as a whole desperately needed the balance and wisdom of other ministers of Christ like TAS. TAS would have reminded them that ultimately the real issue is a heart which is right before the Lord and which loves the Lord. <<

Brother KTS, I'm afraid it would take more than a reminder to change them. Likely they wouldn't change if God shouted it in their face. They'd have to admit that they've been wrong for decades, and that would be to them like the rug of the universe was pulled out from under them, so they're just not going to do that.

Just as they we all walk before the Lord, and we can take care of our heart and walk, but not that of anyone else. We're just like the Lord : we can share if they are open, but otherwise we can't get thru to them.

Grace to you and them....

kisstheson · 07-29-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Excellent post KTS!!

In actuality, there was a lot of truth in what we were taught. But few 'got it'....really, really got it.

And the LC leadership, beginning with WL did a very poor job of truly explaining what it is to have true spiritual understanding. Perhaps no one knew how to explain it is GOD the Holy Spirit, who enlightens us and reveals the WORD of GOD (who is Jesus, GOD the SON, of course) to us.

With each passing year, the more I spend time in prayer, praying the Word of God slowly and thoughtfully, 'chewing' the Word, cross-referencing scriptures, seeking WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING, and fellowshipping with the LORD and with His body of believers, the more I'm 'getting it'. I"m sure this is true for every single person here...no matter how different our lives are now away from the LC wineskin.

I explained I had a WEALTH of spiritual knowledge in me for years, bottled up. I explained for several years, the Lord had me SHUT UP, LISTEN UP and LEARN from my non-LC brethren. In the last year or so, the Lord has began to 'release me'..to 'teach' others, to explain very basic but extremely important principles of the Word of God because I GET IT now . . . It's not HEAD KNOWLEDGE I'm sharing with them.

I honestly can say I received these foundational truths in my LC tenure. BUT, through a LOT of personal trials and tribulations, I learned the power of repentance and the power of the Blood of Jesus. So, now, I not only have the scriptures down pact, I have first hand experience.I'm sure MOST of us here, have been down this road...

Dear sister countmeworthy,

I am very, very, humbled that you think post # 96 was an excellent post. To me, the burden TAS picked up while meditating on and considering Matthew Chapter 13 is so helpful. Our dear brother was able to challenge us to pass through the stage of intellectual understanding and press onward all the way to spiritual understanding. These truths must not only remain in our minds as high and wonderful concepts; rather, these things must become true in us, especially in our daily living.

I really appreciate your very honest testimony, dear sister. How thankful I am to the Lord that he brought you to the place where He had you “SHUT UP, LISTEN UP and LEARN from my non-LC brethren.” And now, after passing through that experience, you have been released to teach others out of the storehouse of spiritual understanding He has gained in you. Praise Him! How Glorious!

Dear brother TAS had some further sharing in Message #8 regarding the importance of spiritual understanding. Right after speaking about the two disappointed disciples on the road to Emmaus, TAS said:

Quote:

"What had happened? All their expectations had gone. All their hopes were disappointed. All that they thought they believed had broken down. We say, 'the bottom had gone out of everything.' Dear friends, that had to happen. The Holy Spirit could never come until that had happened . . . Until these men had come to see that what was in their heads was not in their hearts. They had heard it with their ears, and seen it with their eyes, but they had no spiritual understanding. They had to come to that position before the Holy Spirit could come.

Before we can have the spiritual understanding that leads us into the Kingdom, we have got to have our own understanding brought to an end . . . We can know nothing of what is in this Kingdom, only as we are growing spiritually. Very often our intellectual life goes ahead of spiritual life, and when that happens, we have to come back a long way and start again. We sometimes think we know a great deal more than we really do know. Only a life in the power of the Holy Spirit learns the things of the Kingdom."

kisstheson · 08-08-2009, 03:13 PM

Dear ones, those who have been bought with a price,

I appreciate that dear brother TAS was a lover of God’s Word and a serious student of God’s Word. In message eight TAS pointed out a small, but very important, detail in the account of our dear Lord’s speaking with Nicodemus. I had never noticed this small detail before.

Due to the arrangement of the books of the Bible into chapters and verses, we often think that the account of Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus begins at the first verse of John chapter three:

Quote:

“Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews”

I have always glossed over the little word “man” in this verse. Why is it there? To indicate that Nicodemus was not a woman? Hardly!! As TAS points out, chapter three of John really should begin with verse 2:23. Verses 2:23-25 state:

Quote:

“Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed on His name, because they beheld the signs which He did. But Jesus did not trust Himself unto them, for that He knew all men, and because He needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for He Himself knew what was in man."

Now the whole conversation with Nicodemus takes on a deeper meaning! Nicodemus was indeed a Pharisee, a ruler of the Jews. And yet, for all that, he was still a man, and our Lord Jesus, as One who knew what is in man, did not trust Himself to Nicodemus as a man. Nicodemus needed the same thing we all need: spiritual understanding. Nicodemus needed to see that he, as a man, was fleshly, and only when he was born again could he see the Kingdom of God and enter into the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus could not rely upon anything which he was merely as a man in the fleshly realm; rather, he needed to see that only spiritual people can enter a spiritual kingdom.

I appreciate TAS bringing up this point about the word “man” in John 3:1. We really should start the story of Jesus and Nicodemus with John 2:23.

May our dear Lord save us from thinking too highly of ourselves based upon who we are in the fleshly realm.

kisstheson · 08-09-2009, 10:16 AM

Dear ones, sanctified in Christ Jesus,

A hallmark of TAS’s ministry in the 1960’s and very early 1970’s (he went to be with the Lord in 1971) was a deep, all-consuming, longing that the things he spoke would become a lived-out reality in the lives of those who heard his words. He had a very godly fear of merely adding to the already-existing “mountains of teaching”. He really knew something of God’s desire for spiritual reality, for “truth in the inward parts”.

In a portion I have already quoted from Message Eight, TAS stated:

Quote:

“We can know nothing of what is in this Kingdom, only as we are growing spiritually. Very often our intellectual life goes ahead of spiritual life, and when that happens, we have to come back a long way and start again. We sometimes think we know a great deal more than we really do know. Only a life in the power of the Holy Spirit learns the things of the Kingdom."

Personally, this sheds a lot of light on my experiences in the LC, particularly from the mid-1980’s onward. We had a lot of intellectual understanding of terms and concepts which were new to us, first “Life Study” terms and concepts, and then “High Peak” terms and concepts. Such intellectual awakening can be, and was, a very profound experience. Respeaking the things we had seen, often with voices raised and fists pumping, was reality to us at the time. We were all so sincere and it all seemed so real and so exciting.

Without downplaying the importance of “seeing”, the value of “seeing” became greatly exaggerated, at the expense of gaining the reality of the things we “saw”. Even more exaggerated was the importance of being able to speak "these things”. And so we went on, conference after conference, training after training, always gaining new knowledge, new intellectual understanding, new utterances. In between conferences and trainings we had our time to learn to “prophesy” the latest terms and concepts. But where was the mutual concern and love for one another that we would learn to live out these things, that these things would become not just intellectual understanding, but spiritual reality to us? This is a big area where TAS could have rendered so much help to us.

Here are a few portions from related speaking by TAS in the 1960’s:

Quote:

"'Thou desirest truth in the inward parts' . . . He undercuts all our professions, doctrines, assumptions, pretensions, illusions, and customs . . . God is ever working toward the most inward parts. Do you recognize that? Do you understand what He is doing with us? . . . Here it is: 'Create in me a clean heart'; 'Renew a right spirit within me'; 'A broken spirit and a contrite heart Thou wilt not despise'. You see, it is all this innermost realm of things that has now arisen as the real need. No more deception, no more falsehood, no more mockery, no more make-believe, no more going on as though it is all right when it is not all right; no more using external means to cover over inward unreality; no more going to meetings, and saying prayers, and joining in the whole system, when the inward parts are not right before God. Seeing then that we are what we are by nature now, this represents a re-constituting of us. Anything that does not minister to that is false in itself. Any system of religion that just puts on from the outside, and covers over the inner life by mere rite and ritual is false, it is not true.” (Truth in the Inward Parts, 1962)

Quote:

“In a very real sense I’m afraid, afraid of more talking, more addresses, more unfolding of biblical content and truth. I’ve been doing it, you see, for so many years; sixty years I’ve been preaching and I at this time have to look out and say: what has it amounted to? What does it amount to? I know it is not all without blessing, help, usefulness to the Lord, but... seeing the mountains of teaching over these years, dare I add to that? Have I the assurance that if I go and do more, it’s going to lead somewhere? That’s my fear, my question. This is what I want to say is I come amongst you that we must have this fear this week, a right kind of fear, I believe a divine fear, that we do not fill our notebooks or our minds with more teaching, truth, substance, but that every time as far as there is something that can really affect us, result in something in us, so far as we are concerned we are going to apply our hearts to that. Then day by day and when the days are past, we are different people. That’s the only justification of our coming, friends, we are different people. We certainly are not the same in spiritual life at the end as when we came . . . If this is the effect of the Lord’s words, if there is not reality (and what Christ meant by reality is the heavenliness of nature) . . . It’s perfectly clear that the one thing that Jesus was set upon with all His heart was that there should be no gap whatever between truth as truth, teaching as teaching, doctrine as doctrine, Bible knowledge as Bible knowledge, and life and heavenly character and Christ-likeness. No gap between the two!” (Reality Through the Cross, 1967)

TLFisher · 08-09-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Personally, this sheds a lot of light on my experiences in the LC, particularly from the mid-1980’s onward. We had a lot of intellectual understanding of terms and concepts which were new to us, first “Life Study” terms and concepts, and then “High Peak” terms and concepts. Such intellectual awakening can be, and was, a very profound experience. Respeaking the things we had seen, often with voices raised and fists pumping, was reality to us at the time. We were all so sincere and it all seemed so real and so exciting.

Without downplaying the importance of “seeing”, the value of “seeing” became greatly exaggerated, at the expense of gaining the reality of the things we “saw”. Even more exaggerated was the importance of being able to speak "these things”. And so we went on, conference after conference, training after training, always gaining new knowledge, new intellectual understanding, new utterances. In between conferences and trainings we had our time to learn to “prophesy” the latest terms and concepts. But where was the mutual concern and love for one another that we would learn to live out these things, that these things would become not just intellectual understanding, but spiritual reality to us? This is a big area where TAS could have rendered so much help to us.

Kisstheson, if I'm not mistaken you're touching a point I'm sensitive towards.
Speaking these high peak terminology and truths is just knowledge if there isn't love and compassion for and towards one another. A love and compassion that issues in building up of the Body in love.

Terry

awareness · 08-09-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Terry:
you're touching a point I'm sensitive towards.
Speaking these high peak terminology and truths is just knowledge if there isn't love and compassion for and towards one another. A love and compassion that issues in building up of the Body in love.

Brother Terry, what you are speaking of, the love that builds, is a gift from the Spirit, and comes not from contrivances such as described by KTS.

Contrivances, such as regurgitating the Life-Studies, is only good for building a man made institution. The Masons do just such things.

kisstheson · 08-09-2009, 01:58 PM

Amen, dear brothers Terry and awareness.

May we lift our hearts to the Lord and give Him no rest until He completely saves us from the knowledge which puffs up. May we give Him no rest until the real love, which is God Himself and which only the Spirit of God can produce in us, fills our inner beings and makes us overflow with the love which builds up.

Father God, do such a deep work in all of us. Change us and transform us. Save us from partiality and high-mindedness. According to Your own Word, we ask You to make us as perfect in Your love as You are perfect. We desire nothing less than a heavenly character and Christ-likeness.

awareness · 08-09-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

kisstheson:
Father God, do such a deep work in all of us. Change us and transform us. Save us from partiality and high-mindedness.

Brother KTS, the Lord has already done all the work that is needed. All we have to do is be honest and humble enough to admit that we are nothing without His grace. And that's all it takes. It's when we think we are more than that the trouble comes in.

kisstheson · 08-09-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother KTS, the Lord has already done all the work that is needed. All we have to do is be honest and humble enough to admit that we are nothing without His grace. And that's all it takes. It's when we think we are more than that the trouble comes in.

Amen, dear brother awareness, beloved of God.

Thank you for your balancing word. Thank you for remininding me of the blessedness of simply resting in Him and simply receiving all He has done for us.

How good to dwell peacefully, restfully, and quietly in the garden of a broken spirit and a contrite heart.

I love you in Christ, dear brother awareness.

awareness · 08-11-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

KissTheSon:
Thank you for your balancing word.

My brother KTS, it wasn't meant as a balance. I don't feel you need balancing. I said it to make a point, that's all, and was speaking to all of us, including myself.

We should all always remember we are what we are only because of the undeserved grace of a loving Lord, that loved us even when we didn't deserve it.

kisstheson · 08-14-2009, 06:38 PM

Dear ones, those born of water and the Spirit,

An additional point from Message Eight which touches me deeply is related to our Lord’s word to Nicodemus in John 3:8.

Quote:

"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)"

What a rich verse! “The wind blows where it wills . . .” Amen. Just as we can not control the wind, the hidden work of the Spirit of God in human beings is not under our control. John already made this point back in John 1:13.

Quote:

"Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)"

But there’s more. “. . . and you hear the sound of it . . .” Even though we can not control the wind, we can still sense the blowing of the wind by the sound it makes. While the working of the Spirit is hidden, there is an outwardly discernable manifestation of the Spirit's deep inner work. How glorious! The Spirit brings in a new nature which produces a new, heavenly, living. The Spirit produces Christlikeness!

TAS brings out an additional point from this verse which I had never considered before. That the wind “blows where it will” indicates the Sovereignty of the Spirit of God. It is up to Him to blow where He will. That this verse culminates with “everyone who is born of the Spirit” implies a submissiveness, a yieldedness, and a sensitivity in the born again ones which is first and foremost to the Sovereign Spirit of God, and not first and foremost to any man or any group of men.

As TAS states,

Quote:

“So is everyone that is born of the Spirit. The wind bloweth where it likes. You cannot say, 'Today wind you blow this way, and tomorrow wind you blow the other way.' The wind takes things into its own hands and blows where it likes. And you can talk to the wind as much as you like, but it will take no notice of you. So is everyone that is born of the Spirit. What has Nicodemus got to learn? What have you and I got to learn? That the Spirit of God is the Sovereign Spirit of God. And the only thing to do is to let go to the Holy Spirit. You will never see the Kingdom, or enter into the Kingdom, until you have surrendered to the Sovereignty of the Holy Spirit.” (Message Eight, p. 72)

awareness · 08-15-2009, 06:02 AM

Quote:

KissTheSom:
The Spirit produces Christlikeness!

Ga 5:22-23 : But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Recovery back to the early church is not it. Recovery back to Jesus is.

kisstheson · 08-15-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Ga 5:22-23 : But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Recovery back to the early church is not it. Recovery back to Jesus is.

Amen, dear brother awareness. Recovery back to Jesus is it! Christlikeness is the fruit of the Spirit. This is our wonderful reality and our glorious destiny as believers in Christ!

Getting back to Jesus Christ is the most basic and fundamental matter. This is where God begins and this is where God carries out His work. In Chirst! In Christ! Always in Christ!

Your post is actually an excellent segue right into Message Nine. As TAS points out, our beginning is in Christ, our progress is in Christ, our work and our service is in Christ. If we go beyond Christ, God will bring us back to Christ.

As TAS said in Message Nine,

Quote:

"Let me just re-emphasize this: with God everything begins with a revelation of His Son. If we go beyond that, God will bring us back to it. That is true in the matter of Salvation. There is no true beginning of the Christian life without a seeing of Jesus Christ as God's Son. And that is true of all the progress of the Christian life. God keeps all our spiritual progress true to the revelation of Jesus Christ. And that is true of all the work of God. All the true work of God has got to be done by our seeing the Lord Jesus . . .
We ought never to do anything in the work of God, unless we get it from the Lord . . .
The Spirit of God was saying, is this thing of Christ? Is it an expression of Christ? It is not what you think about this work of God. Not your ideas and your judgments, not how you do things in the world. It is, Has it come from Heaven by the Spirit of God? Have you waited on God to get it from Him? That is how it has always been in the beginning. That is how it was in the beginning of THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES."

kisstheson · 08-19-2009, 02:37 PM

Dear ones, those who have been shown mercy,

While reading through these messages by TAS in the book “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One”, I am struck with the fact that when TAS does present an objective doctrine, it always sounds very familiar to those of us who were in the LSM-LC. Those still in the LSM-LC who read TAS’s books would be surprised to see how "safe" TAS’s books are, even for those who are LSM-only.

As an example of this, I present a portion of TAS’s speaking in Message Nine. TAS had been speaking about how all our service in the work of God has to be through the Spirit of God. At the end of this portion of his speaking, TAS spoke regarding the difference between being born of the Spirit and being anointed by the Spirit. This should sound very familiar to LCer’s and former LCer’s.

Quote:

“There is a difference between being born of the Spirit, and being anointed by the Spirit. To be born of the Spirit is to be brought into the new life, to be made a child of God, to enter into the Kingdom. But the anointing has to do with the work of God. We need anointing for the work of God. These two men, Bezaleel and Aholiab, were anointed. It says, "filled with the Spirit unto all manner of workmanship" (Exodus 31:1-6).”

kisstheson · 08-19-2009, 03:47 PM

Dear ones, people of God,

I am also struck with the wonderful way TAS expounds the typology found in the Old Testament. I appreciate how TAS brings out the depths of the typology, and how he always relates it to practical experiences in spirit and in reality. Even more, I appreciate that TAS never pushes the typology too far, and never applies the typology in a self-serving way.

In Message Nine, there is much rich speaking regarding the typology of the OT tabernacle. Notice that TAS is still giving great emphasis to this matter of inward, spiritual, understanding:

Quote:

“To return to the tabernacle, we will use it as an illustration for a little while. The inclusive fact about the tabernacle is that it was not a thing. It was not a thing at all. It was a Divine meaning. That meaning was covered. If other people, which were not of Israel, came and looked at that tabernacle, they would have said, 'Well, that is a funny thing, what sort of a thing is that?' But the truth was inside. The truth was a mystery, and it required the opened eye of the heart to see the truth in that.

John, many years after the life of the Lord Jesus, said: "He became flesh, and Tabernacled among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." He was only saying, in other words, 'We saw inside of Him. We saw the Divine meaning in Him.'

Now when Jesus was here on this earth, He was the very Tabernacle of God. He was the very Dwelling Place of God in this world. But what did men see? Well, Isaiah said, "And when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected of men" (Isa. 53:2,3). Just as the stranger would have said about the tabernacle, 'There is no beauty in that. It is all covered over with these skins. We see no beauty in that.' They would have despised and rejected it. But John said, "We beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father" (John 1:14). John had the inward revelation of Jesus Christ.”

countmeworthy · 08-19-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear ones, those who have been shown mercy,

While reading through these messages by TAS in the book “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One”, I am struck with the fact that when TAS does present an objective doctrine, ....As an example of this, I present a portion of TAS’s speaking in Message Nine. TAS had been speaking about how all our service in the work of God has to be through the Spirit of God. At the end of this portion of his speaking, TAS spoke regarding the difference between being born of the Spirit and being anointed by the Spirit.This should sound very familiar to LCer’s and former LCer’s.

Indeed there is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being anointed by the Spirit.

1)Salvation is a free gift.

2)But the Anointing comes with a price: surrender and obedience.

In other words we must crucify the flesh and die to self.
This might hit a nerve on former LCrs because imho, the way we were taught Galations 2:20 was so WARPED !! Someone can correct me if I'm wrong for I was only there a short time compared to most here. But based on the countless of 'testimonies', I don't think I'm off base.

The outward unspoken dresscode, the manner of speaking, the manner of praying corporately is NOT what Paul meant when he wrote "I am crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me."

That whole LC/LSM mentality screwed up soo many precious saints who were and are hungry to KNOW GOD, to have a deep, genuine relationship with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. IMHO, before we can have a healthy manifestation of the Body of Christ, each individual must have a deep, personal relationship with the LORD. We need to get to KNOW HIM intimately. THEN as the Holy Spirit enlightens us, we are able to build up and edify the Body of Christ.

God's Presence and God's anointing is not the same.
God's Presence is God's Glory and it changes our heart. It changes our life.
(example: MOSES was in God's Presence. Moses got to KNOW God when he communed with Him for 40 days and nights on the mountain top. The Glory of God was all over him when he came down. It just about blinded everyone below!)

God's anointing is the Power of God. It is the manifestation of God's Presence. Acts 1:8 explains this. After (the Presence of) the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you receive Power (the Anointing).

This is why the gospel sometimes moves and convicts people. A person who has been spending lots of time in prayer, praising and worshipping the LORD with Thanksgiving, studying the Word of God can stop a person 'dead' in his/her tracks. Yet other times, the gospel falls flat on the floor.

Example: 2 weeks ago, my best friend who got saved a couple of yrs ago and has been sharing the gospel to her unbelieving husband were watching an NFL awards ceremony. (something like that)... she didn't want to watch it but to keep the peace with her husband, she hung out with him. Now this show was about acknowledging the professionals and giving a bio of their lives, and who influenced them to get to where they are today.

It was a typical secular rags to riches story for most of them. About half way through the show, they now give the bio on the NFL player from Pittsburg who is sitting on the stage quietly while his bio is presented. They gave rave reports about what an awesome person he is off the field & on the field. Not one word was mentioned about his faith or lack of it. Not one word was mentioned about God..or whether God was instrumental in his life or not.

When they introduced him and he got up to speak. He said "The Person I want to thank for who I am is THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." My friend said everyone including she & HER HUSBAND FROZE when the NFLr spoke this. She told me they were stunned & No one could say anything. My friend's husband began to weep...(although he still did not surrender his life to the LORD.)

Now....let me explain what I believe happened. This NFL player while sitting on stage had to have been in deep communion with the Lord. He was in His Presence. He probably did not hear a word of what was being said about him. When he got up to speak, the POWER, the ANOINTING came upon him. The anointing of the Holy Spirit was released on him.

How do I know ? The fruit. Everyone froze in the Presence of ALMIGHTY GOD. My friend's unbelieving husband who is oppressed by the demons of alcoholism and porn WEPT !

Another observation to consider. This celebrity is not the first person to every acknowledge and thank God or the Lord Jesus on stage! But he surely had the anointing, the power of God to move people while most have not.

And I will stop here.

countmeworthy · 08-20-2009, 05:05 AM

You HAD to get me going didn't ya KTS !

You know what men saw, including his disciples? They saw the POWER, the ANOINTING of the Holy Spirit on Jesus. They were not affected by HIS PRESENCE. The disciples went everywhere with Jesus but being in His Presence did not change them...until the day of Pentecost when the anointing, the Power of God fell on them. THEN as the Holy Spirit filled them with the PRESENCE of GOD did they change and were empowered with the Word of God.

See, everyone saw Jesus healing the sick, and even raising the dead. He turned water into wine. He fed the thousands with 2 loaves and 5 or was it 7 fish?? He taught the Word of God to the multitudes and most knew Jesus was a Prophet, the Sent One and the Messiah. They saw HIS POWER.

I do believe some of the women however were changed because the Love of Jesus on them affected them. The women that come to mind are the woman at the well (probably one of the many Mary's

and Mary of Magdeline who I believe was going to be stoned and also the Mary who broke the alabaster box and anointed the feet of Jesus.)

But them boys who were with the Lord day & night......did not change until the Holy Spirit came upon them & filled their spirits on Pentecost. Proof you want? How many times did Peter annoy Jesus? And as much as Peter loved Jesus, he denied Him. They were in 'His Presence' but were not yet re-generated. They did not have the Life of God taking residence inside them.
Same thing happened with the children of Israel. Moses KNEW God's ways for he basqued in HIS PRESENCE. Moses had communion with God. He talked with Him, got to KNOW HIM. The children of Israel did not have a personal relationship with God. They only knew God's power. They saw how God set them free from Pharoe's choke hold. How God parted the Red sea, how God gave them a cloud by day and fire by night to keep warm..the manna...and yet while Moses was communing with GOD, they built an idol with the gold given to them by Pharoe. They even wanted to go back to Egypt after all God had done for them.

To sum it all up.

The Presence of God and the Anointing go hand in hand.

kisstheson · 08-20-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You HAD to get me going didn't ya KTS !

You know what men saw, including his disciples? They saw the POWER, the ANOINTING of the Holy Spirit on Jesus. They were not affected by HIS PRESENCE. The disciples went everywhere with Jesus but being in His Presence did not change them...until the day of Pentecost when the anointing, the Power of God fell on them. THEN as the Holy Spirit filled them with the PRESENCE of GOD did they change and were empowered with the Word of God.

See, everyone saw Jesus healing the sick, and even raising the dead. He turned water into wine. He fed the thousands with 2 loaves and 5 or was it 7 fish?? He taught the Word of God to the multitudes and most knew Jesus was a Prophet, the Sent One and the Messiah. They saw HIS POWER.

To sum it all up.

The Presence of God and the Anointing go hand in hand.

Amen, dear sister countmeworthy, Amen and Amen!! I am actually rejoicing in the Lord that my previous posts got you going! What riches you shared with all of us! Hallelujah!

I appreciate what you shared: "God's Presence and God's anointing is not the same. God's Presence is God's Glory and it changes our heart. It changes our life . . . God's anointing is the Power of God. It is the manifestation of God's Presence. Acts 1:8 explains this. After (the Presence of) the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you receive Power (the Anointing)."

Both you and TAS share from the same point of view: the two wonderful experiences of the Spirit of God which are unveiled in the Scriptures. The Scriptures clearly unveil the wonderful experience of having the life of God within us, changing our hearts and our lives. The Scriptures also clearly unveil the wonderful experience of the Power, the Anointing, coming upon us for prevailing service to God. I do prefer the presenting of these truths from the point of view of our experiences as unveiled in the Scriptues compared to the LSM way of presenting "two aspects of the Spirit - essential and economical". I am not saying that the LSM way is wrong, just that I prefer sticking to the Scriptural expressions.

There is one futher matter which I find most interesting: Whenever I share with another believer some insights into God's Word which I have received from reading TAS's books, we always end up talking about verses in the Bible and about our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. We never end up talking about how great TAS was. Even though the conversation starts with an insight gained from TAS, TAS quickly fades into the background and our focus becomes the written Word of God and our dear Lord Jesus Christ, the living Word of God! The fact that TAS always points us to Christ, and not to himself, is really, in the final analysis, the highest compliment which can be paid to TAS's ministry.

countmeworthy · 08-20-2009, 08:42 AM

KTS and all,
Thank you for letting me share. What you wrote about TAS is what makes him and others like him
an EXCELLENT Teacher of the Word of God.
You wrote:

Quote:

There is one futher matter which I find most interesting: Whenever I share with another believer some insights into God's Word which I have received from reading TAS's books, we always end up talking about verses in the Bible and about our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. We never end up talking about how great TAS was. Even though the conversation starts with an insight gained from TAS, TAS quickly fades into the background and our focus becomes the written Word of God and our dear Lord Jesus Christ, the living Word of God! The fact that TAS always points us to Christ, and not to himself, is really, in the final analysis, the highest compliment which can be paid to TAS's ministry.

Amen.
When we sit under an anointed teacher, and our thoughts, our passion, our life is consumed with getting to KNOW GOD through HIS WORD, we know we are in good hands. Grant it, the HOLY SPIRIT is the MOST EXCELLENT TEACHER and it is HE Who reveals the WORD of GOD to us. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who points us to JESUS and it is through JESUS that we have fellowship with the Father.
But when we think MORE about the human being who taught us or is teaching us the Word of God and rely soley on him to teach us and NOT the Holy Spirit, the presence of God will depart and the Holy Spirit will be taken away from us. For the sake of this forum, many people put their trust in Brother Lee. Brother Lee 'knew' the Word "like no one else". They became like the cripple who sat by the pool who waited and waited for someone to push him into it where he knew once in the water, he would be healed. (John 5:4-8) But this happens in other circles of the Christian community too.

David wrote in
Psalm 51:11

Quote:

Cast me not away from Thy Presence; and take not Thy HOLY SPIRIT from me

David KNEW the LORD. He spent time in HIS PRESENCE. He put His Trust in the Holy Spirit. David also knew his horrible weakness which is why he prayed in vs 10 for the LORD to create in him a CLEAN heart and renew a right spirit within him. He KNEW he was forgiven of all his transgressions and that his sin was covered (Psalm 32:1) but this spirit of lust followed him everywhere he went imho. For why else would David want the Lord to create in him a CLEAN HEART ?? I think that is the only way David would be set free from desiring women ! If GOD would remove his fleshly sinful heart and replace it with a Clean (sanctified) heart, his heart, his eyes would look upon ONLY the LORD.

Something else I've learned.....It is WONDERFUL to be in HIS PRESENCE, to be ANOINTED, to be under the Anointing......but as I wrote earlier, it comes with a PRICE. The way any of us really get to KNOW GOD is to be TESTED. We are ALL tested !! And often times we think GOD is requiring something heavy duty from us. When all he wants is our decision to obey and NOT to wallow in our sorrows, pleading and begging for 'mercy'. I KNOW. I've been there..done that ! I too have walked and wallowed in the valley of the shadow of death! I have also experienced the LORD, KING MELCHIZEDEC set a table before me in the presence of mine enemies. I've gotten better in obeying. Saves me a whole lot of GRIEF !

Remember Abraham?
After all them years of waiting on God's promise to bless him and Sarah with an heir, Isaac is finally born. GOD was FAITHFUL to HIS WORD. He kept HIS Word. 13 or so years later, God tells Abraham to give Him back Isaac. We don't read anywhere that Abraham argued, screamed and got in the LORD'S Face throwing His Word back at Him. Abraham could have said something like "YOU are going back on YOUR WORD, Lord".

He didn't. I am sure Abraham obeyed with a sorrowful heart that he was going to kill his son at the request of God.
But Abraham passed the test to surrender Isaac and obey God. Thus God spared Isaac.

Tests like this one happens to all of us. I've been giving these tests. I'm learning faster now...to shut up and OBEY !

I've been around the mountain one too many times !

I've also learned the more I obey, the more Understanding and Wisdom I am blessed with. The veil from my eyes is removed. I can see clearer.

That said, I am very, very leary of people putting any person up on a pedestal. Yes, God does give us spiritual mentors or spiritual fathers and mothers. I have had several. I have a few right now. BUT it is the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF who is using them to take me to the wells of water digging deep until out comes a well of springing Water..the Water of Life.

I have never hungered and thirsted for the Word of GOD in my life like I do now. I do not know if it is because we are soo close to the Lord's return that I am basquing in His Presence where there is fullnes of Joy even in the midst of the storm. Oh.. one more thing: Digging is hard work !! But the REWARD that comes from it is exceedingly worth it !

awareness · 08-20-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

CountMeWorthy:
I think that is the only way David would be set free from desiring women !

Since David loved Jonathan more than women, even kissing him, wasn't it Jonathan that freed David from desiring women? Saul sure thought something perverse was going on between them.

David and Jonathan is proof that God doesn't condemn same sex attraction as much as Christians do today.

But that was just one of many sins God forgave David for. Proving, perhaps, that the cross was effective even back then.

countmeworthy · 08-20-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Since David loved Jonathan more than women, even kissing him, wasn't it Jonathan that freed David from desiring women? Saul sure thought something perverse was going on between them.

David and Jonathan is proof that God doesn't condemn same sex attraction as much as Christians do today.

But that was just one of many sins God forgave David for. Proving, perhaps, that the cross was effective even back then.

Same sex attraction is instigated by a demon of confusion & deception. Satan's minions are always trying to crack a person's heart. They are always seeking a way to enter into a person's thoughts. Drugs works for some. Religion for others. Sex be it same sex or not..any perverted sex..any sex outside of marriage is a stronghold that can and will oppress any person, Christian or not if we allow it to.

I don't think the church knows how to truly reach out to the sexually addicted people and especially the homosexual. If a person truly understood why they are attracted to someone of the same sex, they would repent for opening that window. It is not only true for the homosexual, it is true for any person who is controlled by any sin.
Let me say it again. We need to repent for OPENING the WINDOW...not merely for sinning. When we open a window, we give permission to the devil to grab hold of us.

Do you know why Joseph never got in the mess David did? Joseph RAN from the woman who was suducing her...and for that, he paid a PRICE. Imagine that....but he got rewarded for his suffering and what a REWARD !
Poor David learned the HARD way...like most of us !! But he learned and sooner or later so do most of us.

David wrote in Psalm 51:17

Quote:

A broken and a contrite (repentent) heart O God Thou will not despise.

All his transgressions and iniquities finally got him to realize without God creating in him a clean heart, he was never going to overcome. It takes a broken and a contrite heart for God to create in us a clean heart.

Next step is to renounce the thing that is oppressing us..be it perverted sex, porn, drugs, religion, food, even DEPRESSION or FEAR...whatever is preventing us from surrendering to GOD everything holding us back.
When we begin to renounce that thing, the chokehold loosens its grip on us.

Then we grab hold of the Blood of Jesus and never, ever let go of it. We must wash and cleanse ourselves in it every day and cover ourselves in it. The Blood and the Word of God is our protection. It will keep the demons away. I know. I've experienced the power of the Blood of Jesus...more than you'll ever know.

I believe this is why we are instructed to put on the WHOLE Armour of God..to put on the Helmet of Salvation. The Helmet protects our thoughts. The Breastplate of Faith and Love protects our heart. The Sword of the Sprit is the Word of God and we must hold it dear and near to us...never let it go..Never let HIM go. The WHOLE ARMOUR of GOD is our protection. The Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. His Name is Jesus.

As an Fyi......this is not just 'doctrinal' teaching I learned from the Bible. I went through a great deal of oppression. The devil almost made mincemeat out of me......long after I became a Christian. And it stemmed from the fact when I got saved..really, really saved, there was one thing I would not let go. And the demons had a hey-day with me. That thing I would not would not let go, almost destroyed me literally.

Everything I share, I speak from my spirit..my heart. When I say I know the power of repentance, I do. When I say I know the power of renouncing sin, I do. And the BLOOD of JESUS? Oh, I KNOW the power of the Blood of Jesus. I know the POWER of the NAME of JESUS. I KNOW what it is to be delivered, to be set free. And I know quite well, the devil never stops trying. He is a thief. He is a liar. He is a murderer. Just as God is no respecter of persons, neither is the devil..but God is Merciful. The devil is not.

Psalm 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

Yep...I believe the Blood of Jesus was even effectual back then. It covered David's sin(s) and anyone else's who asked to be forgiven and delivered.

kisstheson · 08-21-2009, 07:03 AM

Hello dear ones, those who have been rescued out of the present evil age,

I really was touched by something which dear sister countmeworthy shared back in post #115:

Quote:

“This is why the gospel sometimes moves and convicts people. A person who has been spending lots of time in prayer, praising and worshipping the LORD with Thanksgiving, studying the Word of God can stop a person 'dead' in his/her tracks. Yet other times, the gospel falls flat on the floor.”

Our dear sister has pointed out how the real work for God always begins – it begins when a believer, or a group of believers, comes into the presence of the Lord. Just think of all the places in the book of Acts where a major move of God took place when a dear one, or some dear ones, were in prayer, or praising and worshipping, or studying the Word of God: The outpouring at Pentecost, the further move of the Lord after the marvelous prayer meeting in Acts 4, Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, Saul’s healing through Ananias, the outpouring at the house of Cornelius, the sending out of Barnabas and Paul, Paul and Silas’s release form the Philippian jail, etc.

This ties in beautifully with TAS’s statement from Message Nine:

Quote:

“In the New Testament, the prayer gathering was the time where all the work was originated.”

TAS has a lot more to share on this subject in a later message from this series. I appreciate so much that the real service for God does not begin with our strategizing and organizing; rather, the real service for God begins when God’s people come into His presence. This enables the work to be carried out through the Spirit of God instead of through human fleshly efforts.

countmeworthy · 08-21-2009, 09:17 AM

I have only glanced at TAS's writings. I am going to have to start reading his writings KTS !

For us to enter into the Presence of God and make an impact on people indeed DOES require a lot of prayer. Paul KNEW the power of prayer and was a prisoner of the Lord Jesus Christ because he prayed without ceasing prayed! But he did not the begging prayer we often hear....and not a shouting prayer of Praise although there is a time when we make a shoutful noise unto the LORD. To enter into His courts, we PRAISE and give THANKS. There is also Intercessosory prayer, different from giving Praise and Thanksgiving although we should incorporate our Thanks and Praise in any kind of prayer. And there is also the aspect of Spiritual Warfare, another flavor of praying. But when we enter into His Presence, there is stillness. We experience the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding. We bow before the KING of kings, casting down our golden crowns at His Feet.

Once we enter into the Presence of God and His Presence becomes a reality to us, His Presence will bring death to the SELF. See this is how I came to experience crucifying the self !!! One day, I inadvertantly (or was it?

) entered into God's Presence. It was there I surrendered everything...my problems, my SELFish desires..everthing God hated, I hated. I realized that outside His Presence, I could not crucify the flesh. Self could not die. It took a lonnnnnng time for me to 'get it', but once I did, I was 'hooked'.

I'll say it again: His Presence is NOT a feeling. The Power, the anointing is what we 'feel' when when His Presence is soo strong. His Presence goes everywhere we go. But His Power, His Anointing is for serving HIM. So when are having a conversation with someone or in a group setting and the Holy Spirit begins to speak through someone or everyone, something happens. Everyone suddenly is completely focused on the Word from the LORD.

A person can say to us "Jesus Loves You" and it mean nothing. Another person under the Power and the Anointing of the Holy Spirit can say those very same words and it's like "POW!"......those words "Jesus Loves You" has suddenly made an impact.

I use that simple illustration to distinguish a religious 'blessing' that falls flat on the ground and a SPIRIT FILLED, ANOINTED blessing by which the scales from our eyes fall off...even US who KNOW the LORD Loves us. It's a a fresh new Revelation to us.

See the Presence of God ushers in the Power of God, His Anointing. The Anointing is what makes an impact on a person. It changes the behavior. How many times have we had conversations with carnal believers or non-believers and a cuss word comes out of them. Immediately, they apologize and are embarrassed. Why? Because their spirit recognizes the Anointing on us. Non believers do not apologize to each other when cussing. Neither will their spirit respect a religious person.

KTS,
I'm going to try to go through TAS's writings this weekend but please share more on what moves you through his teachings AND please share with me and all of us here testimonies or confirmations of God's anointing on you.

We are ALL Anointed because the ANOINTED ONE lives in us. The Word CHRIST means Anointed and thus we CHRISTians are ANOINTED.

To all the former & current LCrs, did y'all receive teachings on the Anointing of the Holy Spirit in DEPTH?

I don't recall during my heyday...and I don't know if I would have understood it like I do today because of my immaturity in Christ back then. As we endure the FIRE, the trials and tribulations of Life that mature us in Christ, we then begin to grasp what the Anointing is.

I will say, in my heyday, 2 teachings that impacted me to this day I credit the elders in my locality for, is the teachings on the Blood of Jesus and its' power coupled with calling on the Name of the Lord Jesus. (Calling on the Name of the Lord was not exactly taught properly imho. BUT they got the PRINCIPLE down correct and that is what matters.)

countmeworthy · 08-21-2009, 09:48 AM

I did not KNOW I was experiencing the Anointing. I did not even what the Anointing WAS ! But here are 2 (hopefully) short testimonies.

1) A few months after getting saved, I was working in a hospital as a housekeeper.

(weren't ALL the sisters housekeepers at one time or another!

)
Like most of us, I was very zealous for the gospel. I prayed all day long while I worked. I had heard/read Brother Andrew's book on "Practicing the Presence of God". I may have been a little too zealous for my own good because I tried to share the gospel with every single patient whose room I went into.

(Yes...I got in trouble too)

Anyway, there was one patient who was the most obnoxious, biligerent, loathing person whose room I cleaned for a month. He loved giving me a hard time. Now for the clincher: One day I walked into his room and he started his ranting and blasphemous talk against the LORD. There was an empty glass on his bedside table. As I carefully moved the table, the glass fell to the tiled floor. The glass did not break. It bounced for over 2 minutes !! And it bounced like a BALL!! Bounce & bounce and bounce and bounce.
We both just stared in frozen silence watching the glass bounce on tiled floor.
Finally, it stopped and gently rolled. I picked it up, set it back on the bedside table. Not a hairline crack was on it. He looked at me not saying anything and I think I smiled wishing him a nice day while I went about my business.

The PRESENCE of GOD brought on me a HEAVY supernatural Anointing, the POWER of God which would not let the glass break.

Btw, I did not think anything of it. It seemed like a perfectly normal experience. Unlike a football player who makes a touchdown and is exhilarated with his accomplishment.
2) The other time I experienced the ANOINTING (& did not know that's what it was) happened during a 'training' meeting. The big annual training on the book of Hebrews was taking place in Anaheim.

In San Diego, we were trying out something new in the meetings. We all were instructed to study a Hebrews message for next week's meeting. The leading brother(s) were going to then call on us to share something we got from it before the saints.

I studied hard that week. When the day came, the leading brother began to call on people to share. As they finished, he would look around to see who he would call next. Suddenly I FELT an extraordinary calmness and peace come over me. A couple of seconds later, he looked at me, focused on me and called on me.

I stood up and shared on Hebrews 8:10 and vs 16. I shared for about 3 minutes maybe?? Then I felt the 'heaviness' lift and I knew to stop sharing.

See what I mean about the Anointing being used for SERVICE? In both experiences, the unbroken glass bouncing on the tile floor and me sharing on Hebrews 8:10, 16 UNDER the ANOINTING was God USING me for HIS Purpose.

It wasn't for MY benefit. It was for the benefit of others. When God was done using me, the Anointing 'lifted'.

At that time, I did not know anything about the Anointing even though I had experienced it time and time again. I experienced the Anointing because I spent much of my free time in praying the WORD of GOD...
I STILL DO !!! And occassionally, I pray in tongues...by FAITH, believing the Holy Spirit is praying through me.

kisstheson · 08-24-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I have only glanced at TAS's writings. I am going to have to start reading his writings KTS !

. . .

KTS,
I'm going to try to go through TAS's writings this weekend but please share more on what moves you through his teachings AND please share with me and all of us here testimonies or confirmations of God's anointing on you.

We are ALL Anointed because the ANOINTED ONE lives in us. The Word CHRIST means Anointed and thus we CHRISTians are ANOINTED.

Amen, dear sister. I take you exhortation to me as the Lord Himself speaking to me. I was going to move on to Message Ten, but it is clear to me that we need to linger at least a little longer on this matter of the anointing. May we never go too fast when our dear Lord wants us to remain where we are and linger with Him!

I will spend some time with the Lord, considering my experiences of God's anointing on me. Whatever seems to be profitable for sharing, I will certainly share. Praise Him!!!!

08-12-2008, 03:35 AM	#3
YP0534 Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 688	I'm no TAS scholar either, Ohio, but my recent impression has been that TAS had a balancing word for the exclusive tendancies of the Local Church which Lee rejected at the time. In October 1984, Lee settled upon blaming TAS for all the decline in the localities over all the ensuing years, especially in Taiwan. The report that I read was that TAS wanted every gathering of believers in a locality be be considered "a" church while WL wanted only a proper gathering, which should be called "the" church. Seems like neither of them precisely got it. For Lee, the proof of the annointing was the increase, which happened for him but apparently not so much for TAS. I don't agree with that, though, because it seems pretty clear that the genuine increase comes from the genuine one accord. Much of Lee's increase had mostly to do with his organizational skills. PS: I always appreciated the background discussions to be found here http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=38345 __________________ Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 Last edited by YP0534; 08-12-2008 at 04:12 AM. Reason: added p.s.

08-12-2008, 08:38 PM	#9
djohnson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	What was the problem between Simon Meek and Lee? __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

08-16-2008, 07:58 AM	#15
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Here is something else that really touched me from Message One of “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One”: The brothers in Manila began to send invitations to TAS to come to Manila starting very early in 1962 (the terrible church split in Manila took place in 1961). As TAS earnestly sought the Lord regarding if, and when, he should travel to Manila, for a long time the leading from the Lord was: “No. Not Yet.” TAS had asked the Lord to speak to him through His Word regarding Manila. Finally, one day, as TAS was reading Isaiah chapter 52, he had a real "rhema" experience of Isaiah 52:12b, and he knew this was the Lord’s direct word to him regarding Manila: “For the LORD will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.” Brother TAS knew this meant that the Lord was already in Manila, brooding over the situation there, and that the Lord would fully take care of all the practical matters in London while TAS was gone. (Here is something encouraging for the sisters: The Lord gave TAS’s wife a "rhema" word as well, just for her encouragement regarding Manila.) I am touched by this matter for at least two reasons. First of all, this is one example among many which shows that the presence of the Lord did not completely leave TAS from 1957 onwards. TAS certainly does not boast, but he mentions little experiences like this between him and the Lord many times during these messages. There was definitely a sweet, intimate, fellowship between him and Christ that lasted right up until his death in 1971. Having the presence of the Lord, both individually and corporately, is a major point in these messages. When one considers all this, along with the obvious anointing that is on these messages, the traditional LC mythology falls flat. The traditional LC account maintains that TAS permanently lost both the presence of the Lord and the anointing for his ministry when he “refused the way of the Spirit” by disagreeing with WL over the doctrine of locality. TAS’s own words prove otherwise. His walk with the Lord and his ministry both deepened during the course of the 1960’s and into the early 1970’s. Secondly, the fact that TAS waited two years to come to Manila, even though the group in Manila was obviously in an extremely tough situation, is to me a really precious lesson, especially for all the dear ones in the GLA today. TAS himself said that if he had come immediately when he was first invited “something very important might have been lost for two years.” While a co-worker of TAS, C. R. Golsworthy (and his wife) came and offered some help, I believe that the “something very important” that the Lord did not want TAS to interfere with was the precious opportunity for these dear suffering brothers and sisters in Manila to find Christ in a real way for themselves. No more second-hand Christ from the “minister of the age”. No more second-hand Christ from headquarters. These ones were given the rare privilege of finding Christ and knowing Christ by faith, and faith alone. Yes, just faith. “Naked” faith. No human crutches. No man-made substitutes. This can sound scary until we remember that by faith the Lord is always with us while we walk through the valley of the shadow of darkness. In my heart I believe that the GLA is in such a privileged position today. May the Lord continue to be so gracious to those in the GLA as they learn once again to follow the Lamb for themselves. You dear ones in the GLA are His beloved sheep and He has promised that you can hear His voice and that the voice of another you will not follow. Don’t be too quick to look to any man to “rescue” you from this unique opportunity to regain your simplicity in Christ! When the time was right, TAS’s speaking became an incredibly rich source of blessing for these dear ones. As Herald Hsu states in his testimony: “TAS held two special conferences and delivered 42 messages, leading us and the whole body of Christ into spiritual and heavenly realms.” Praise the Lord that TAS did not spoil this rich blessing by coming to Manila too soon! __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality Last edited by kisstheson; 08-16-2008 at 09:03 AM.

08-17-2008, 08:47 AM	#16
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	A quick intermission before I begin to consider Message Two of “That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One” by TAS: I just noticed the "Acknowledgments" section of dear brother Rex Beck's book Shaped by Vision - A Biography of T. Austin Sparks. There are some names there which should be familiar to all of us here. Peter Debelak's father, Chuck Debelak, is acknowledged for "helpful conversations and emails". Our own dear brother Norm is acknowledged for "editorial emendations". __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

08-18-2008, 02:07 PM	#18
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Message Two - 2nd Post Dear ones, the more I “chew” on TAS’s word that “Abiding In Christ means that we get everything from Him”, the more helpful it becomes. "Chewing" on this word makes me more and more aware of a deep need to bring all situations to Him in order to seek Him for His leading, His speaking, His strengthening. Of course, most of the time when I stop and bring a situation to Him, it seems that the heavens are ”as brass” and no direct answer comes. That is OK - the very act of stopping my own doing and seeking His face is what is important. After all, “We walk by faith and not by sight”. Surely our dear Lord uses the stopping of ourselves and the seeking of Him to keep us living in Him as much as possible. TAS relates all the great themes of the NT to this matter of our being in God and our living in God: The meaning of Christ’s Crucifixion? That Christ willingly went out from the presence of God to save all those who were separated from God and who had no life in God. The result of Christ’s resurrection? That we have been brought into God. Our current position and standing as believers? In God. How to carry on our Christian walk today? Live not in ourselves, but live in God. The reason we have received the indwelling Spirit as the anointing? To teach us what it means to live in God, i.e. to make us understand what is in God and what is not in God. __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

08-11-2008, 07:23 PM	#1
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	"That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS Dear brothers and sisters, I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One". I envision this thread to be a sort of "blog", containing my thoughts, reflections, and meditations as I read through these 42 messages spoken by TAS, interspersed with comments and questions from you dear ones. A rich nugget in the book's introduction concerns dear brother TAS's realization that "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place." TAS knew that a great cost is required from all those who would participate in allowing the Lord His right to come into His full place. TAS knew that he himself and his ministry must never become such an important issue to the believers that they become a device used by the enemy to divide and destroy God's people, and that he and his ministry must never become something that competes with the Lord Jesus for His full place. TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him." What a blessed beginning! __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality Last edited by kisstheson; 08-11-2008 at 08:13 PM.

08-12-2008, 07:21 PM	#8
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Before I begin to consider the actual contents of the 42 messages contained in "That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One", I should mention one thing that is very striking about these two volumes - like me, you can read all 42 messages and still not know who is the audience to which TAS was speaking. All you know is that they are dear brothers and sisters in Christ in Manila, the Philippines. I guess I am too naive for my own good, but it took three external sources - Rex Beck's biography of TAS, Herald Hsu's testimony, and the video posted by "the Church in Manila" on youtube.com - for the light to dawn that TAS was speaking to those dear ones who were "on the other side of the fault line" of the terrible split that took place in the LC in Manila back in 1961. The details of any division amongst God's people are always distasteful, so let this summary suffice: The LC in Manila had willingly and enthusiastically "handed over" their church to WL and in such an unscriptural situation things went from bad to worse. When the smoke cleared, two of WN's co-workers, WL and Simon Meek, had divided from one another and the LC in Manila was split into two irreconcilable parties. It was a very tense situation. Ugly stuff. Two of the leading brothers, Simon Meek and Wu Ren-Jie, invited Herald Hsu to come to Manila and almost immediately dear brother Herald asked the other brothers to send a letter of invitation to TAS. Waiting on the Lord for a clear sense that the time was right, TAS waited almost two full years before arriving in Manila in late January of 1964. The amazing thing is that, given his own history with WL, TAS could have easily seized upon this major disaster in the LC and really attacked WL, but he did not. From Message 1 to Message 42, all the speaking is focused on Christ, our experience of Christ, our growth in Christ, and the Father's delight in Christ. Completely absent are any mean-spiritedness, animosity, or self-vindication by TAS. Lee and the terrible split are never made an issue. Instead, Christ alone is the focus, Christ alone is exalted and Christ is given His rightful place, which is Head over all and All in all. Now that I know the black background and I am reading through these messages for the second time, I have to appreciate not only the words TAS spoke, but even more, the words TAS did NOT speak!! __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality Last edited by kisstheson; 08-12-2008 at 07:26 PM.

08-20-2008, 09:29 PM	#21
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Message Three - 2nd Post The Lord's love towards us is an unlimited love. Such love loves us to the very end, to the uttermost. As I mentioned in the previous post, TAS spoke on seven aspects of the Lord's love towards us, as seen in John Chapters 13 and 14. And so, dear brothers and sisters, I encourage you to slow down, collect your thoughts, turn to Him in a real way, and see how many of these seven rich points He will use to deeply touch your heart: Christ is not offended by our failures – He does not withdraw His love for us because we make mistakes. His love causes Him to come down to the level of the smallest ones and the weakest ones. He loves us all equally; His love does not distinguish between classes of people, between “superior ones” and “inferior ones”. His love is not merely sentimental, it is VERY practical. His love is a cleansing love, helping us to live a higher level of life by freeing us from the evil that is in the world. His love is full of spiritual instruction, causing us to lose all interest in becoming somebody important, and replacing worldly ambition with a simple desire to suffer for Him, to lay down our lives for Him. and to die for Him. The love of Christ which He is/has, is a love which loves others to the uttermost – and this is the very love the Holy Spirit is working in us! Marvelous! Thank you, dearest Lord, that Your most beautiful love is becoming more and more real in us! __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality Last edited by kisstheson; 08-20-2008 at 09:36 PM.

08-21-2008, 03:08 PM	#24
Arizona Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 22	Sweet Peace KTS, Thank you for this thread. A peaceful place amongst the clamor. Yes,,,,, talk is cheap and action speaks louder than words. His humility. Even to the death of a cross. He loves us! I have been singing that song today,,,, "This is my story, this is my song; Praising my Saviour, all the day long". A favorite of mine since the beginning of my experience 37 years ago. I hope to sing it until the end of these days and into eternity. Thanks again. Arizona

08-27-2008, 08:23 PM	#33
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Thank you, dear ones Dear brothers Terry and YP0534, Thank you for your posts, dear brothers. You have watered me and encouraged me during a dry, difficult, time. I am so thankful to the Lord for His care for me through His Body. May the Christ in our hearts enlarge more and more! May we truly see Him as Head over all those who are His, in every place. May His love for all His people fill our hearts and flow out in practical love towards others. Your fellow seeker of Him who is the most lovely One, "kisstheson" __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

08-28-2008, 04:01 AM	#35
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,664	"We are not gathered to men or a man. No man for us can measure Christ. We are here tonight because this is a true love feast. And that means that the love of Christ is in our heart. We left our groups. We left our divisions. We are here on the common ground of Christ. What a grand thing it would be if all Christians just took that ground! The ground of so many Christians, the ground of some denominations, some organizations, some special teaching, or many different things, that is their ground. But the real ground of the Christian is Christ. If we all had a greater concern for the Lord Jesus than we had for religious things, what a different thing it would be in the world." --- TAS How true. When I first came to the LC, this kind of talk filled the airwaves. It was attractive and it was true in our hearts. What killed it was the "extras" that began to grow larger. We began to judge all others, thinking only we were right. Instead of looking for Christ, our "common ground," we looked for all the things that made us different, made us unique, made us special, made us God's move today -- "not some piece of poor, pitiful, degraded Christianity." __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

09-02-2008, 04:14 PM	#39
djohnson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	Ohio you and others have referred to the good old days in the LCS and then "things" changed and extras were brought in and became the focus. But did things really change or did you change i.e. you grew out of it? I ask because it seems to me the history of the LCS under Lee in the USA is just a repeat of history of the problems he caused in the Far East prior to his arrival on our fair shores. __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

09-04-2008, 12:18 AM	#44
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Message Five - 4th Post Dear ones, I thought I was ready to move on to Message Six, but the Lord is really speaking to me and doing a purifying work in my heart based upon the burden at the end of Message Five. TAS brought up the Samaritan woman’s challenge to the Lord: “Where is the right place to worship – this mountain here in Samaria or that mountain there in Jerusalem?”. TAS also pointed out how utterly profound our Lord’s answer to her was:“Neither – nor”! Neither in Samaria nor in Jerusalem! Neither the way, the preference, and the forms of the people in Samaria; nor the way, the preference, and the forms of the people in Jerusalem. “Neither-nor”! All outward ways, preferences, and forms were terminated by our Lord when He terminated the old dispensation and brought in the new dispensation. All of the “handwritings in ordinances” were wiped out by Him! What then are we left with? Simply being gathered together into His Name, with Him in our midst. Simply offering our heavenly Father the worship in spirit and truth that His heart longs for. A modern-day “Samaritan woman” might ask the Lord: “Most Christians say I can attend ‘the church of my choice’ while the Exclusive Brethren and the Local Church say that I must meet with them on the ‘ground of oneness’. Who is right?” Our Lord would answer now as He did back then: “Neither-nor”! Neither scattering into so many separate meeting places based upon preference nor insisting that others must come meet with us or ‘they are not the church’. “Neither-nor”! Why insist on outward ways, outward preferences, and outward forms, when our Lord already terminated all these things long ago? Anything that can be used to limit God’s people to either a certain way or a certain form has already been terminated! Again, all we are left with is the utter simplicity that our Lord gave to us at the very beginning: Being gathered together into His Name, with Him in our midst, to offer to our heavenly Father the worship in spirit and truth that His heart longs for. What freedom! This frees us to be willing to meet with any and all of God’s children, simply as brothers and sisters in Christ. This frees us from the pressure of having the “one right place to meet” and the “one right way to meet”. Our place to meet is Christ and our way to meet is worship in spirit and truth. Hallelujah!! __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

09-11-2008, 05:35 PM	#50
Paul Cox Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 181	Consider this possibility, saints: There was something brewing in Witness Lee's heart all the way back in China. It took a while for it to come out, but eventually it did. Without the condition of his heart being such as it was, what happened in the eighties never would have taken place. Things were good, to an extent in the seventies. But remember, there were large numbers of older saints who had been with Watchman Nee in China. I believe some of that blessing from China was still on the group. It took a while for the things in Witness Lee's heart to become manifest, and eventually all that was good in the group got usurped by 100% Witness Lee. Now his survivors have taken things to an absolute extreme, and have long ago gone past the point of no return. I entered the Local Church in the early seventies. The church life was enjoyable. But there were warning signs all over the place. Of course, there weren’t HWMRs back then, but I certainly remember being on the list to automatically get the life study messages in a little manila envelope every week. Everybody reading the same thing, speaking the same thing, and doing the same thing was already well in place. And, even then whenever Witness Lee opened his mouth that would start a herd stampede in another direction. It was the “flow.” I always likened it unto a football drill that many of us are familiar with: Everybody in full gear under the hot blazing sun, and high stepping in place. The coach raises the football and moves it to the right. Off goes the group prancing in that direction. Then he moves the football in the opposite direction and off the team goes in that direction. That was how the Local Churches on the earth reacted to the different “flows” proceeding out of Witness Lee’s mouth, even back in the seventies. The intent was the same; the method has changed over the decades. But the end result is just to have a group of people who are in complete uniformity, with little possibility that many would escape the plantation. Roger PS KisstheSon, Thanks for posting the riches from the ministry of TAS. For all the years in the Local Church we were discouraged from getting into his ministry. Come to find out, much of what Lee was teaching had originally come from TAS. His audio messages are also available at www.Christiantapeministry.com The ministry is called something else now, but that ad

09-12-2008, 06:23 PM	#51
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Amen, dear brother Roger. The scenario you presented definitely registers with me. Actually, it really, really, saddens me; but, I must admit that it definitely rings true. Oneness with Christ, obedience to Christ, following Christ wherever He might go – all that was gradually replaced by oneness with Lee and his ministry, obedience to Lee and his ministry, and “being absolute” in following Lee and his ministry. As this was happening, our God, who by His own Word is a jealous God, had to gradually withdraw His blessing. The ones who had been with Watchman Nee would have been much less prone to over-exalting a minster of Christ. They knew that to have more and more of Christ, there needs to be less and less that is of men. Hence, as you say, they were a big factor in a portion of blessing remaining with the LC in the 1970’s. As these older ones gradually passed away and newer, spiritually-inexperienced, ones arose who never knew WN, the excellent teachings in the LC and the teacher who taught them became more and more our focus. All the while we ignored the many warning signs that surrounded us. As you say, it took time for what was in WL’s heart to become fully manifest. Going through these marvelous messages spoken by TAS, it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that the times TAS and WL had together in the late 1950’s were an attempt by God Himself to bring some honest, frank, faithful fellowship to WL in order to balance him. With WN in prison, it seems that TAS was the last one on the whole earth who could have been used by the Lord to balance WL. Sadly, WL refused this balance and after this it was not long before WL was also estranged from the three other co-workers of WN who had been sent out of Mainland China (Simon Meek, Faithful Luke, and Stephen Kaung). The rest of the story, of course, is history that all of us know too well. How prone we all are to think so highly of ourselves! How very sobering this all should be to us! One of the great services that TAS’s ministry can perform for us, if we are open to it, is to show us how important it is for human beings to take their hands off the things of God. __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

09-13-2008, 12:49 PM	#52
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Dear brother Roger, Thank you so much for your “PS” in your previous post. It really saddens me that the brothers and the sisters in the LC were discouraged from reading TAS’s ministry for all those years. A lot of riches were missed and a lot of healthy spiritual balance was missed. I just can’t find anywhere in the New Testament where we are exhorted to limit ourselves to the ministry of only one minister of Christ. TAS definitely had a lot of important things to say. But even beyond the rich details within TAS’s speaking, just being open to TAS’s ministry would have been a healthy humbling to those in the LC, as they would have seen clear evidence of the Lord's moving in places outside of the LC. By reading TAS’s ministry, they would have seen the precious work our Lord carried out through TAS and those with him. In addition, TAS’s ministry would have pointed them to others like Bakht Singh, Stephen Kaung, etc., where the Lord was also working in a fresh, up-to-date, way. Thank you, dear brother, for the web-site link. I have always thought of christiantapeministry.com as the site for Stephen Kaung/Lance Lambert/Christian Chen. This site actually contains 318 TAS messages! Another pleasant surprise is that this site contains five messages from John Ingalls. For those who would like to be able to view the text of the messages that I am referring to in this thread, please visit austin-sparks.net and look for the messages spoken in 1964 under the series title “"That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One". To directly link to the messages in Volume 1 (Message 1 - 22) of this series, click here. __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

09-19-2008, 04:40 PM	#60
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	A Matter of the Heart I guess I should answer my own rhetorical question posed at the very end of my previous post. It seems to me that those who focus solely on one particular man’s ministry will close their hearts towards TAS, and consequently, TAS’s ministry will seem to have no impact to them. To those, however, whose hearts are open to TAS, the riches in TAS’s ministry can be a factor in leading them into the spiritual and heavenly realms. It is all a matter of the heart. Should I be WL-only or should I be TAS-only? Praise God, none of us has to make that choice! According to the apostle Paul’s heart in 1st Corinthians 3:21-22, the supply from *all* genuine ministers of Christ is ours. “So then, let no one boast in men, for all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all are yours.” May our hearts be enlarged to receive whatever our dear Lord desires to speak to us through all the members of His Body. Humble me, dear Lord, that I might be open to hear Your speaking to me through any of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Dear Lord, do have mercy on us all. __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality Last edited by kisstheson; 09-19-2008 at 07:44 PM.

09-23-2008, 08:08 PM	#61
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Homework! Dear ones, I have some “homework” to do! In Message Seven, dear brother TAS challenged those listening to his speaking to search the entire New Testament and find out exactly what Paul and the other apostles believed was the real purpose of their work for the Lord. According to the NT scriptures, what is actually revealed concerning the reason why our Lord sent out His apostles? What yearning in His heart did He long to see fulfilled through His apostles’ laboring for Him? In previous posts, the rich, Christ-centered, flavor that permeates this message seven was mentioned several times. Dear brother TAS made Christ the reality and the focus of all things related to God: Christ IS the new dispensation of God. Christ IS the center of all that God is doing today. Our development and growth in the Christian life is simply the development of Christ in our life. The true nature of the church is just Christ; indeed, the church is Christ corporate. It's all Christ! Having seen all these points, I now desire to learn from the NT how the work of God is also completely centered on our wonderful Christ. This should be a rich study in the Word! I plan on collecting all the verses that I can find related to the true purpose of the apostles’ labors for the Lord. After collecting these verses, my desire is to spend time in the presence of our Lord to see something of what these verses reveal concerning His heart’s desire. I then plan on comparing what I have seen from the Lord with TAS’s speaking to see if I arrive at the same conclusions that TAS did. And so, if you will excuse me, I have some “homework” to do . . . __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

07-16-2009, 12:34 PM	#65
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS kisstheson: >> TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him." << Now there's a brother the knows his proper standing, and that of his ministry, before the Lord. How refreshing..... __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

07-16-2009, 07:16 PM	#67
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS Aron: >> Sparks, as Awareness said, "knew his proper standing"... << But didn't Lee say that Sparks didn't know his standing, which was submitting to Lee's ministry? Didn't Lee say that the Lord's blessing left Sparks, because he didn't submit? Am I wrong, or off base here? __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

07-17-2009, 11:33 AM	#68
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS Dear ones, beloved in Christ, First of all, I want to thank dear brother UntoHim for taking the time to investigate why this thread disappeared, and also for doing whatever it took to bring this thread back to life. For me and for all of us - Thank you, dear brother, UntoHim. Dear brothers aron and awareness – I have really enjoyed the recent posts by both of you. Here is my understanding of what transpired between TAS and WL, and this whole idea that “the blessing left TAS”: TAS made two visits to Taiwan in the 1950’s, once in November and December of 1955 and a second visit in February and March of 1957. According to those present in 1955, all the speaking by TAS and dear brother Angus Kinnear during that first visit was very enlightening and very helpful. Before the second visit, some of WL’s young co-workers were beginning to “dissent” from WL and a “rebellion” was brewing. In the co-worker gatherings with TAS during the 1957 visit, these young ones several times asked TAS some very leading questions regarding highly sensitive matters where TAS and WL did not agree (i.e. “the ground of the church”). Not surprisingly, these young co-workers took TAS’s speaking as a reason to widen their split with WL. In summary, there already was a problem in Taiwan, and it existed before TAS ever arrived for this second visit in 1957. After his visit to Taiwan in 1957, TAS invited WL to come to Honor Oak in London to conduct a three-day conference in early August of 1958. WL and TAS met up again in Kilcreggan, Scotland, on August 18, 1958. This was the beginning of two weeks of fellowship together. It was during this two-week period of fellowship that TAS supposedly told WL something to the effect that once the plane TAS was on left Taipei in 1957, the ‘flow’ from God left TAS, and it had not returned, right up until that very day (i.e. August of 1958). I am not sure how it started, but an expanded version of this story came to be part of the LSM/LC “mythology”. When I first touched the LC decades ago, I was told very clearly in a home meeting that once TAS resisted the “ground of the church” in 1957, the flow of God left him for good and never returned to him. This, of course, implied that the 'flow' left TAS all the way until TAS's death in 1971. I heard this same version of the story many times after that. I will give WL the benefit of the doubt that he accurately reported TAS’s words in August of 1958. The problem is, something got added during all the respeakings of WL's words. After having read brother Herald Hsu' testimony, several accounts by WL of these events (in The Vision of the Age and Life-Study of Colossians), the biography of TAS by brother James Reetzke, the biography of TAS by brother Rex Beck, and almost all of TAS’s messages spoken in the 1960’s, I have come to a conclusion on this matter. I do believe that TAS was under the chastisement of the Lord for some time after his visit to Taiwan in 1957. I believe TAS was too naïve and allowed himself to be used as a pawn in the conflict between WL and the younger co-workers. TAS certainly had a real spirit of being a "sheep among wolves". He also had a real spirit of being "innocent as a dove". But he appeared to have had a lack in the area of being “wise as a serpent” (see Matthew 10:16). TAS should definitely have been more discerning before he spoke so frankly to WL and the co-workers. Could he not see that he was “sitting on a powder keg” which was ready to explode? For this, I can see why he experienced a dry time in his walk with the Lord which lasted at least until August of 1958. Having said that, I see no evidence that this loss of the ‘flow’ from God lasted all the way until TAS’s death in 1971. Not even close. TAS makes many mentions of precious, intimate, experiences of a ‘flow’ from Christ in his speakings and his writings during the 1960’s and very early 1970's. During this period, he experienced the real shining of a “rhema” word from the Lord many times. Also during this period, he experienced very definite leadings from the Lord, either to go forward or to wait. He also experienced conviction from the Lord. TAS was not boastful; rather, he simply spoke of these things in a very natural way, believing that these experiences were the common inheritance of every born-again believer. In these messages spoken in the Philippines early in 1964, TAS makes several references to times when he experienced the ‘flow’ from God. Please see my previous post, post # 15, for an example of such an experience by both TAS and his wife. Interestingly, in these messages spoken in the Philippines, TAS makes mention of a somewhat lengthy experience of the Lord’s chastisement. Perhaps he is speaking of his experience from the late 1950’s? I will try to find the exact quote where TAS mentioned this experience and post it here in this thread. __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

07-17-2009, 01:30 PM	#69
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS kisstheson: >> Interestingly, in these messages spoken in the Philippines, TAS makes mention of a somewhat lengthy experience of the Lord’s chastisement. Perhaps he is speaking of his experience from the late 1950’s? I will try to find the exact quote where TAS mentioned this experience and post it here in this thread. << And we await to read what you find. But no matter what Lee has to say about TAS, in my estimation TAS was much more true to his Christian teachings than Lee was to his own, and in his humilty before the Lord too. This can clearly be seen in the publishing of both men, and how they contrast. Lee copyrights all his material (have you ever been on a LSM site, where they say it's copyrighted even for personal use - and then your public IP is posted, as a warning that they can find you?) But TAS wouldn't allow his works to be copyrighted. He presented them to all the saints, and for any use whatsoever. This is how a proper Christian, one that's not worshiping mammon, should act. But not Lee. His aim was obviously, money, money, money....and that's why he never dealt with Philip...and why he copyrighted his works. How can anyone that would allow the sin of Philip to continue, dare to criticize TAS? And claim that the flow left TAS? Seems to me that "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." If the flow of God was with Lee, Lee sure tainted that flow with his lust for money. I mean, selling the Life-Studies? What's that about, but money, money, money. TAS wasn't caught up in that.... So I posit that, the real flow remained with TAS, and the real flow can't be cornered, like Lee acted like it could be. Unlike TAS Lee was a megalomanic. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

07-18-2009, 08:14 AM	#75
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS Code: KTS: Based upon these experiences from late 1963 and early 1964, it would appear that TAS was definitely once again experiencing the 'flow' from God. KTS, from a strictly objective point of view, anyone that thinks they can control the flow of God has to be one of the most arrogant persons in the world. And once they make such a proclamation, then the seed of arrogance begins to grow. And after awhile they will then be saying things like "I am the oracle," "I am the apostle," "I am the authority." All of this will of course be coming from the growth of the seed of arrogance. And what is produced will be self effort. Can a man grab the wind? Can a man control the wind? It appears to me that TAs was honest. And how many of us, if honest, has to admit that sometimes we don't sense the presence of God. Could Lee be that honest. Could he ever admit that the Lord seemed to him to withdraw Himself from Lee? You know it happened. It happens to everyone that seeks to follow the Lord. I say, because TAS was in honest person, that makes him more ture in his walk with the Lord than those that can't admit that they sometimes misstep, or fail to sense the presence. TAS wasn't a pretender. Lee was. So therefore, the real flow was with TAS, and the fake flow was with Lee. As I stated, Lee's measure of the flow was outward. If his movement was growing, that was all the proof Lee needed to claim the flow was with him. But how arrogant that is! I bring someone to the Lord, which is really the Lord's doing, and I then claim the flow is with me. This is why I say Lee was a megalomaniac. Lee was ambitious from the get-go. The fruit of his ambition became more and more obvious as time went on. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

07-20-2009, 01:14 PM	#87
Former LC member Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 40	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS It is good for us to have a long and hilarious laugh. Vanity vanity all is vanity, saith the preacher! Yes, I totally agree that this term describes the LC so well. And did we get so vain about being in the latest flow. I am so glad to be out amongst ordinary Christians and learning to be humble. 'Whoever humbles himself as this little child is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven'.Mathew 18:4

07-25-2009, 12:03 PM	#95
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Crying out stones Balaam's Ass says: >> Balaam's donkey "could" have just the word we need and in fact, the biggest problem with "flowism", in my opinion, isn't that it's single sourced (which is admittedly a big problem) but that it's target isn't every believer in general but only those who have joined the special club. << I understand what you mean, YP, by the stuff found in Christian books stores. Every paradise has a serpent. Lk 19:39-40 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Sometimes I just want to hear from the stones. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

07-26-2009, 07:18 AM	#97
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Shallow Knowledge KTS quotes TAS: >> They seem to have believed it all. They talk to other people about it everywhere. And then they have taken a course in life which denies the whole thing. And their whole position and teaching afterward is a contradiction of all that they profess to believe." << I knew of a brother in the LC like this. His name was Witness Lee. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

08-09-2009, 01:58 PM	#106
kisstheson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 282	Re: Message Eight - 3rd Post Amen, dear brothers Terry and awareness. May we lift our hearts to the Lord and give Him no rest until He completely saves us from the knowledge which puffs up. May we give Him no rest until the real love, which is God Himself and which only the Spirit of God can produce in us, fills our inner beings and makes us overflow with the love which builds up. Father God, do such a deep work in all of us. Change us and transform us. Save us from partiality and high-mindedness. According to Your own Word, we ask You to make us as perfect in Your love as You are perfect. We desire nothing less than a heavenly character and Christ-likeness. __________________ "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality

08-20-2009, 05:05 AM	#116
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,363	Re: Message Nine - 3rd Post You HAD to get me going didn't ya KTS ! You know what men saw, including his disciples? They saw the POWER, the ANOINTING of the Holy Spirit on Jesus. They were not affected by HIS PRESENCE. The disciples went everywhere with Jesus but being in His Presence did not change them...until the day of Pentecost when the anointing, the Power of God fell on them. THEN as the Holy Spirit filled them with the PRESENCE of GOD did they change and were empowered with the Word of God. See, everyone saw Jesus healing the sick, and even raising the dead. He turned water into wine. He fed the thousands with 2 loaves and 5 or was it 7 fish?? He taught the Word of God to the multitudes and most knew Jesus was a Prophet, the Sent One and the Messiah. They saw HIS POWER. I do believe some of the women however were changed because the Love of Jesus on them affected them. The women that come to mind are the woman at the well (probably one of the many Mary's and Mary of Magdeline who I believe was going to be stoned and also the Mary who broke the alabaster box and anointed the feet of Jesus.) But them boys who were with the Lord day & night......did not change until the Holy Spirit came upon them & filled their spirits on Pentecost. Proof you want? How many times did Peter annoy Jesus? And as much as Peter loved Jesus, he denied Him. They were in 'His Presence' but were not yet re-generated. They did not have the Life of God taking residence inside them. Same thing happened with the children of Israel. Moses KNEW God's ways for he basqued in HIS PRESENCE. Moses had communion with God. He talked with Him, got to KNOW HIM. The children of Israel did not have a personal relationship with God. They only knew God's power. They saw how God set them free from Pharoe's choke hold. How God parted the Red sea, how God gave them a cloud by day and fire by night to keep warm..the manna...and yet while Moses was communing with GOD, they built an idol with the gold given to them by Pharoe. They even wanted to go back to Egypt after all God had done for them. To sum it all up. The Presence of God and the Anointing go hand in hand. __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

08-21-2009, 09:17 AM	#122
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,363	Re: "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS I have only glanced at TAS's writings. I am going to have to start reading his writings KTS ! For us to enter into the Presence of God and make an impact on people indeed DOES require a lot of prayer. Paul KNEW the power of prayer and was a prisoner of the Lord Jesus Christ because he prayed without ceasing prayed! But he did not the begging prayer we often hear....and not a shouting prayer of Praise although there is a time when we make a shoutful noise unto the LORD. To enter into His courts, we PRAISE and give THANKS. There is also Intercessosory prayer, different from giving Praise and Thanksgiving although we should incorporate our Thanks and Praise in any kind of prayer. And there is also the aspect of Spiritual Warfare, another flavor of praying. But when we enter into His Presence, there is stillness. We experience the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding. We bow before the KING of kings, casting down our golden crowns at His Feet. Once we enter into the Presence of God and His Presence becomes a reality to us, His Presence will bring death to the SELF. See this is how I came to experience crucifying the self !!! One day, I inadvertantly (or was it? ) entered into God's Presence. It was there I surrendered everything...my problems, my SELFish desires..everthing God hated, I hated. I realized that outside His Presence, I could not crucify the flesh. Self could not die. It took a lonnnnnng time for me to 'get it', but once I did, I was 'hooked'. I'll say it again: His Presence is NOT a feeling. The Power, the anointing is what we 'feel' when when His Presence is soo strong. His Presence goes everywhere we go. But His Power, His Anointing is for serving HIM. So when are having a conversation with someone or in a group setting and the Holy Spirit begins to speak through someone or everyone, something happens. Everyone suddenly is completely focused on the Word from the LORD. A person can say to us "Jesus Loves You" and it mean nothing. Another person under the Power and the Anointing of the Holy Spirit can say those very same words and it's like "POW!"......those words "Jesus Loves You" has suddenly made an impact. I use that simple illustration to distinguish a religious 'blessing' that falls flat on the ground and a SPIRIT FILLED, ANOINTED blessing by which the scales from our eyes fall off...even US who KNOW the LORD Loves us. It's a a fresh new Revelation to us. See the Presence of God ushers in the Power of God, His Anointing. The Anointing is what makes an impact on a person. It changes the behavior. How many times have we had conversations with carnal believers or non-believers and a cuss word comes out of them. Immediately, they apologize and are embarrassed. Why? Because their spirit recognizes the Anointing on us. Non believers do not apologize to each other when cussing. Neither will their spirit respect a religious person. KTS, I'm going to try to go through TAS's writings this weekend but please share more on what moves you through his teachings AND please share with me and all of us here testimonies or confirmations of God's anointing on you. We are ALL Anointed because the ANOINTED ONE lives in us. The Word CHRIST means Anointed and thus we CHRISTians are ANOINTED. To all the former & current LCrs, did y'all receive teachings on the Anointing of the Holy Spirit in DEPTH? I don't recall during my heyday...and I don't know if I would have understood it like I do today because of my immaturity in Christ back then. As we endure the FIRE, the trials and tribulations of Life that mature us in Christ, we then begin to grasp what the Anointing is. I will say, in my heyday, 2 teachings that impacted me to this day I credit the elders in my locality for, is the teachings on the Blood of Jesus and its' power coupled with calling on the Name of the Lord Jesus. (Calling on the Name of the Lord was not exactly taught properly imho. BUT they got the PRINCIPLE down correct and that is what matters.) __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

08-21-2009, 09:48 AM	#123
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,363	2 testimonies of experiencing the Anointing while in the LC I did not KNOW I was experiencing the Anointing. I did not even what the Anointing WAS ! But here are 2 (hopefully) short testimonies. 1) A few months after getting saved, I was working in a hospital as a housekeeper. (weren't ALL the sisters housekeepers at one time or another! ) Like most of us, I was very zealous for the gospel. I prayed all day long while I worked. I had heard/read Brother Andrew's book on "Practicing the Presence of God". I may have been a little too zealous for my own good because I tried to share the gospel with every single patient whose room I went into. (Yes...I got in trouble too) Anyway, there was one patient who was the most obnoxious, biligerent, loathing person whose room I cleaned for a month. He loved giving me a hard time. Now for the clincher: One day I walked into his room and he started his ranting and blasphemous talk against the LORD. There was an empty glass on his bedside table. As I carefully moved the table, the glass fell to the tiled floor. The glass did not break. It bounced for over 2 minutes !! And it bounced like a BALL!! Bounce & bounce and bounce and bounce. We both just stared in frozen silence watching the glass bounce on tiled floor. Finally, it stopped and gently rolled. I picked it up, set it back on the bedside table. Not a hairline crack was on it. He looked at me not saying anything and I think I smiled wishing him a nice day while I went about my business. The PRESENCE of GOD brought on me a HEAVY supernatural Anointing, the POWER of God which would not let the glass break. Btw, I did not think anything of it. It seemed like a perfectly normal experience. Unlike a football player who makes a touchdown and is exhilarated with his accomplishment. 2) The other time I experienced the ANOINTING (& did not know that's what it was) happened during a 'training' meeting. The big annual training on the book of Hebrews was taking place in Anaheim. In San Diego, we were trying out something new in the meetings. We all were instructed to study a Hebrews message for next week's meeting. The leading brother(s) were going to then call on us to share something we got from it before the saints. I studied hard that week. When the day came, the leading brother began to call on people to share. As they finished, he would look around to see who he would call next. Suddenly I FELT an extraordinary calmness and peace come over me. A couple of seconds later, he looked at me, focused on me and called on me. I stood up and shared on Hebrews 8:10 and vs 16. I shared for about 3 minutes maybe?? Then I felt the 'heaviness' lift and I knew to stop sharing. See what I mean about the Anointing being used for SERVICE? In both experiences, the unbroken glass bouncing on the tile floor and me sharing on Hebrews 8:10, 16 UNDER the ANOINTING was God USING me for HIS Purpose. It wasn't for MY benefit. It was for the benefit of others. When God was done using me, the Anointing 'lifted'. At that time, I did not know anything about the Anointing even though I had experienced it time and time again. I experienced the Anointing because I spent much of my free time in praying the WORD of GOD... I STILL DO !!! And occassionally, I pray in tongues...by FAITH, believing the Holy Spirit is praying through me. __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)