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Old 07-09-2020, 08:35 PM   #1
Hodos
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Default The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

In Viet Nam, by the picking up one old copy of The Stream Magazine, dated 1965, in one Christian Library in Vietnam, we, some Christians in one denomination(Christian Missionary Alliance in US), had begun the rough church life from 1980.

Now, 2020, there are about 45 rough local churches in all Vietnam. This is the wonderful work of God in our closed country. After many years practicing the new way according LSM, on one side, we had been enjoyed many riches in God's word through the teaching of Bro. W. Nee, and one other side, we were feeling that we are the proud men, the hypocritical Christians. In the church meetings we prophesied the truths that we had not yet experienced, such as to say the lessons to our elementary teachers in the schools. Thank God, on one hand, we had gone out from the Babylon, but on the other hand, it seems we are under just other system.

I read in the book of Bro. Nee, preaching 1952, (The Church Affairs) He says that in the book Acts, there were over two work centers. If there was not the Antioch center, we should come back to the Catholic Church. Because it is right. I see in the Recovery of The LC, there is one capital, only one center. So we can not say "amen". From 2015, there was about 7 localities that went out of the LC. Praise The Lord, because by God's grace, we, the saints in Viet Nam had been recovered in The Lord. We want to be recovered fully, completely according the teachings of The Bible, not by the teachings of men.

Pray for us.

Hodos
July 10, 2020
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:01 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Hodos,

Thank you so much for giving us this update on what is happening in Viet Nam. May the Lord continue to encourage, enlighten and strengthen you brothers and sisters there in Viet Nam.

It sounds like some of the Local Church saints there have felt like the Lord has been restricted within the system of the Living Stream Ministry churches (many here feel the same way) and have taken a bold step of faith to "go outside of the gate" and give the Lord freedom to work in and among the saints apart from the burdens and restrictions dictated by the headquarters in Anaheim California.

I believe God will honor your desire to serve and worship him, no matter what the cost.

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Old 07-16-2020, 11:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

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.... and one other side, we were feeling that we are the proud men, the hypocritical Christians. In the church meetings we prophesied the truths that we had not yet experienced, such as to say the lessons to our elementary teachers in the schools. Thank God, on one hand, we had gone out from the Babylon, but on the other hand, it seems we are under just other system.
What is great is that you recognised your own pride and hypocracy. It is the stumbling block for all humanity, for all time. And you've identified it and seperated yourselves from it, and identified that the LRM was fostering pride.

God is clearly with you as your hearts are right before Him.

The breaking of the power and sovereignty of the Catholic Church, released Europe into a place where things could move forward. Having denominations keep the Christian church from being able to gain power in the way the Catholic Church did. This lead to human rights and the rule of law, which is why people have human rights and freedoms in western culture. And a good legal system (not perfect, but good).

Its so important to have the freedom of multiple churches, it actually helps keep your focus on Jesus rather than an institution, or a person. It prevents the uncontrolled gathering of power that is so tempting to people when the opportunity arises. Especially when they can't see their own pride!

I bless you in your endeavours to establish a healthy organisation under which you are all able to worship freely and sincerely.
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Old 07-17-2020, 07:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Praise The Lord, who have mercy on His small, tender, late saints in Viet Nam, because we very lately received the Recovery way from 1970, but until the Viet Nam war to be ended, we should practice the church life in the year 1980. In 1996 there was one worker from LSM coming to Viet Nam to unify all the rough churches here into one human system.

Several of us to be driven away...and to be pushed against the wall. But after some years bro. John So came to Viet Nam. He gave us the book of bro. John Ingall---"Speaking The Truth in Love". For the first time we knew about the fall of LSM.

Hallelujah. The throne of God is controlling all things in the same way forever.

Thank God. All glories be to Him forever!

Hodos
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Welcome to the forum! John Ingalls' book is a very good one which many on this forum have been helped by. Most of us on here, as you probably know, do not meet with LSM controlled churches any more. Some small groups of us still meet in an open way, like the format we had in the LSM controlled churches. The saints can testify about any experience of Christ they have, or any author/speaker they may want to share - not just exclusive Witness Lee stuff all the time. I've been with such a group now for over 20 years, and it has been a very good and rich fellowship, with a focus always on Christ alone and His word.
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Old 07-19-2020, 12:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

We are some of saints, living in Vietnam. Some years ago, we have been out of the Recovery churches system of LSM, and now we are practicing local church life in our city. Now we are so happy in Christ and in church life.

While worshiping our Father, we read only the Bible and follow God's Word. We do not want follow man but Christ. If any brothers and sisters have the opportunity to come to Vietnam, please visit us.

Thanks God, our Father. We are members of one Body of Christ. We are one in Christ, in His Word, and we love one another. Hallelujah!
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Old 07-19-2020, 09:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Halelujah! Praise The Lord, Our glorious Victor!

After the saints in Viet Nam had been practicing the church life from 1980 and 1981, immediatly the protestant churches in Viet Nam had given us many heavy persecutions until the year 2000, these were reduced and temporary stopped....But the saints in the LSM LC churches have persecuted us heavy at once when we durst to go out their LSM churches from several years ago.
There also are many saints have seen the wrong way of LSM, but they dare not to leave them, because they fear the persecutions from the leading ones in LC Viet Nam.
Now there are six groups of saints in the inner city of Ho Chi Minh City. They are meeting outside the LSM churches.

Brothers, pray for us.

Hodos
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Old 08-20-2020, 12:54 AM   #8
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What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each [of you] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification.

And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
But if there be a revelation to another sitting [there], let the first be silent.
- 1Cor. 14:26, 29-30 (Darby)
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PROPHESING IN THE MEETINGS OF LSM CHURCHES IN VIET NAM-
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The LSM churches in Vietnam practice false prophesying as follows:
1. Paul told that there are only two or three people to prophesy in meetings. In Vietnam, the leaders encouraged and forced (all) everyone to attend the meetings to prophesy loudly, people only worry about speaking without paying attention to what others say.
2. Paul said the prophet must receive revelation and speak the scripture according to his personal received revelation from the Lord. In the LSM congregations in Vietnam, people prophesy according to the text of a deceased person. They do not prophesy other than with printed material. I saw them prophesying like the one saying or reciting lessons to teachers in schools, prophesying like talking robots, without understanding. Just say "amen" noisily, it is ok.
.
Hence the people of God in the LSM congregations in Viet Nam are hungry and thirsty for the living words, lack of fresh revelations, without the anointed words of the Holy Spirit. The LSM churches become like religious organizations, taking the form of recovery, but without the abundant life.
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:15 PM   #9
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2. Paul said the prophet must receive revelation and speak the scripture according to his personal received revelation from the Lord. In the LSM congregations in Vietnam, people prophesy according to the text of a deceased person. They do not prophesy other than with printed material. I saw them prophesying like the one saying or reciting lessons to teachers in schools, prophesying like talking robots, without understanding. Just say "amen" noisily, it is ok.

Hence the people of God in the LSM congregations in Viet Nam are hungry and thirsty for the living words, lack of fresh revelations, without the anointed words of the Holy Spirit. The LSM churches become like religious organizations, taking the form of recovery, but without the abundant life.
It happens like that in the United States too. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a prophesying meeting when a saint stands up and says, "I didn't understand the morning revival at all this week, but I'll just read and release a point from it in faith!"

In a sense, that ends up being a form of uninterpreted speaking in tongues, which is the uncertain trumpet. "I don't understand what I'm saying, and it doesn't mean anything to me, but I say it anyway." How on earth is that edifying or building up at all? But everyone else mindlessly says "amen" in response. It is dead. For a movement to proclaim they are so focused on "life", they sure are lacking it.
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Old 08-23-2020, 08:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

The Divine Law of the Burnt-Offering-
Leviticus 6:8-12 “This is the law of the burnt-offering; this, the burnt-offering, shall be on the hearth on the altar all night unto the morning….And the priest shall put on his linen raiment, …and take up the ashes to which the fire hath consumed the burnt-offering on the altar, and he shall put them beside the altar…. and carry forth the ashes without the camp unto a clean place….and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt-offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace-offerings."

--I saw the ashes of one so-called great servant of God, that still lie sprawled on the altar in the midst of all the LSM congregations. They are not to be removed that to leave the space to other burnt-offerings. The ashes are still talking and giving orders to many living ones.

--35 years ago I read the comments of Watchman Nee as follows: (I wrote down the idea):
"When the seed is sown on the ground, it grows up, then becomes a rice bush, and becomes fertile. After harvesting the paddy grain, people plow the stubble, and clear the field. God does not allow His late servants' influence to be exerted on His people. He was very jealous, not allowing any of His servants to become an idol among His people, so that they might be tempted to honor them too much".

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Old 08-24-2020, 08:16 AM   #11
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Thank you so much Hodos (and Nehemiah) for coming to our forum and blessing us with your reports of what is happening with the dear brothers and sisters there in Vietnam. It seems that the Lord has given you special insight and burden for God's people, and for his church, in a very difficult situation there in Vietnam. Many of us can fully understand and appreciate how your struggles can become all the more difficult when you are fighting against the religious system of error that pervades among the dear saints in the Living Stream Ministry Local Churches.

I am reminded of the apostle Paul's word's written to the Romans (10:2)
"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge."

May "The Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too."(1 Cor 1:3-5)

Rest assured that many on this forum are keeping you brothers and sisters in our thoughts and prayers.
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Old 08-26-2020, 05:42 PM   #12
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TO BE DRUNK THE PRAISES OF MEN IS TO BE BORN THE PRIDE-
David was unable to bear when the glory of God was humiliated by his enemies, risking himself to kill Goliath when he was about only 15 years old. Women from many Israeli cities sing in response to folk songs: " Saul hath smitten his thousands, And David his ten thousands". His reputation spreading to neighboring countries. Year after year he walked the path of glory and victory forever until the day he was to be so arrogant that he wanted to have an complement army checking, so that Joab who was an ambitious man must to prevent. David fell in arrogance in his old age.

I have read the repetitive bragging words of several great persons in LSM as they preached. They kept saying the saint's praises to them. More and more years of drunk in human praises, dire consequences must come: “Am I not an apostle of the earth? Am I not the only one to have the oracles of God? Don't I have the age ministry? Am I not the only one who possesses great high truths? ”….
I read the boast of a number 1 figure in the LSM; " None shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life" (Joshua 1: 5a- Darby). Is this the deepest root of his life (if it is true) why is he bragging?
“As the fining pot tries the silver and the furnace the gold; so the man is tried by the mouth of whoever praises him“(Proverbs 27:21 -Jubilee Bible)-
“Weaned from all my lordly self,
Weaned from all the miser’s pelf,
Weaned from all scorner’ways,
Weaned from all the lust of praise”. (Hymn 413).

I am no better than my fathers, but because His mercy gives light to me to see the reason for my wicked arrogance, so I can see the path of glory and pride of king David who was walked to the point of his pride. Thank God, I was collapsed in front of My holy God. Amen .
Hodos.
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Old 09-04-2020, 02:41 AM   #13
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I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-

1/ A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through Watchman Nee. and Witness Lee the Lord's recovery come to a zenith, and that the culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L."

2/ An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "

Thank you,

Hodos
September 4, 2020
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Old 09-04-2020, 05:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos View Post
I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
2 / An elderly saint said to me: Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020
Hi Hodos,

The Corinthians seemed to have much the same problem that you describe above. When they told Paul about their problem, here's what he told them and us, with a few "updates" to bring home the point of these verses to fit your situation.

1 Corinthians 1:11
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe (Vietnam), that there are contentions (disagreements) among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
(I am of Witness Lee. I am of Titus Chu. I am of John So.)
13 Is Christ divided? was Witness Lee crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Witness Lee?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


When Christians are asking which man they should follow, they are asking the wrong question. They are asking how they should divide the Body of Christ by following which man.

Paul asks the excellent question "Is Christ divided?"

Of course, the answer is "no!"

We are to follow Christ. No man. We are free to read the writings of others who have gone before us, as we are led by the Lord Himself. We are also free to reject the writings of others whose purpose is to draw a following unto themselves by insisting "I am of Witness Lee".

Galatians 5 (KJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

We are free to read the writings of Witness Lee, but we are not to be brought into bondage by following Lee or any other man.

John 8:36 (KJV)
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Following Witness Lee will not make anyone free.

I hope this helps,
Nell
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Old 09-04-2020, 10:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos View Post
I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020
Hi Hodos,

The Recovery people have all kinds of deceitful comments like these to hold their people in bondage. They are all lies.

When LSM came into the Midwest region of the U.S. and divided all the LC's, I was told that "returning to the pure word of God was a tactic of the enemy." They demanded that every LC buy and read their "Morning Revival" books.

How can this be? Martin Luther and all of the Reformers "returned to the pure word of God" and the western world was delivered from the Dark Ages. How can it ever be wrong to return to God's pure and holy word? Who would ever teach that Lee's books are better than the Bible?

Placing LSM's ministry books between LC members and the Word of God is the same as the Roman Catholic Church placing Mary between their members and God.
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:23 PM   #16
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I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
Hi Hodos,

The comments you quoted from the saints regarding Witness Lee and LSM weigh heavily on me. I think Nell’s answer was excellent, and Ohio’s answer was exactly right too. The Bible says the opposite of what these saints are saying, and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in.

Here are some of my thoughts to add to the mix:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
1.The teaching behind believing that Nee and Lee are some kind of zenith is the teaching of “minister of the age”. One big problem with the minister of the age teaching is that numerous of the so-called MOTAs in the Old Testament are known types and figures, shadows, of who? The Messiah. They are all pointing to Christ. Lee/LSM places Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the most unique man who has ever lived, the One who is supposed to be the fulfillment of these types, simply as one among many men in the long line of MOTAs. No joke. And then after Him, Lee says the MOTA line continues through the apostles and others leading up to Lee himself. But this is not how types and shadows work. If there are more types AFTER the fulfillment of the type, then the original fulfillment (Jesus) becomes a mere shadow of what is after him. In other words, these dear deceived saints are in essence saying that Jesus is a type, a figure, a shadow, pointing to the zenith, the one at the end, Witness Lee. I am horrified for those who continue to teach and believe the MOTA doctrine, for the serious and sobering conclusions such as these that it implies.

God did not send His only Son to die for you and me only for the ultimate peak to be tied to LSM, a lucrative non-profit publishing company based in Anaheim, CA. It’s totally crazy when you say it that way! Jesus says He is the Way to the Father. THE Way. There is no other way. Including LSM. Including Lee. To be unable to give up any other mortal teacher who will be sitting in the same seat as the rest of us to be judged shows just how much in the oppression of fear and bondage they are. But I’m sure they don’t even realize it, so effective are the thought and behavior controlling teachings of this ministry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020
2.Their reference to 1 Corinthians 14:26 is confusing, given that the verse speaks of each one having a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Of almost all the churches out there, the local churches match this the LEAST! Why is that? Because the hymns are chosen by Lee or modified by Lee or written by Lee. The instruction is based on Lee. The revelation is only from Lee. The tongues are non-existent. And the interpretation is only and solely from Lee, OR ELSE!! There is no semblance of “each one has”..... there is only “Lee has”!

I feel for you, Hodos, because there are some responses from LC members where the deception is so great, so deep, and so dark, that you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes. It reminds me of the scene in Ezekiel where the temple is full of idols and everyone has their backs to the temple worshipping Tammuz (a false god, an idol) rather than the God whose glory filled the temple, the real God. They are so blinded that sometimes all we can do is pray for God’s mercy to be extended to them like it has been to us.

We are praying for you.

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Old 09-05-2020, 01:48 AM   #17
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Dear Nell,

Thank you for your reply, and for giving me some very precise instructions that I feel they are right before the eyes of God. The saints of LSM in Vietnam are following their religion’s head, Witness Lee. They dare not leave him, for fear of committing rebellion. And they said several of our brothers were LSM rebels, chasing trash (John So, John Ingall), when we seceded them seven years ago now. These LSM saints are not free to read the books outside of the LSM books.

Hodos
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Old 09-05-2020, 02:18 AM   #18
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Dear Brother Ohio,

Your words that expose plans of Satan, using human words in the LSM to usurp the throne of the pure word of God, the Bible. I have seen that the saints of the LSM in Vietnam no longer read the holy scriptures themselves, they just read their morning revival books. They did not wholeheartedly seek the Lord's revealed words before going to morning meeting of the Lord's day. They slept and woke up late, then brought only their morning revival book, not Bibles, into the meeting room. There they just return and recite from that book only. It is worse and poorer than the meetings of the Protestant denominations that they have so heavily condemned before.

Hodos
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Old 09-05-2020, 02:53 AM   #19
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Hi Trapped,

These words are very correct: “and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in”… “you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes”.

We are praying for them. Thank you for this helpful advice. The words you said about the so-called MOTAs are deep and difficult to understand to us in Vietnam. I will think and study about these things more. I don't understand the abbreviation of MOTA. With God's grace, last time I translated a post of "Very good start, but in progress, many misinterpretations of Scripture" by Fer74 into Vietnamese, then I emailed directly to quite a many leading- ones in the LSM congregations in Vietnam. This time I ask your permission and that of brothers Ohio and Nell to let me translate your just three posts here and translate them into Vietnamese, then post them on facebook and email to them all.

Thank You so much-
Hodos
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Old 09-05-2020, 07:47 AM   #20
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Dear Brother Ohio,
Your words that expose plans of satan, using human words in the LSM to usurp the throne of the pure word of God, the Bible. I have seen that the saints of the LSM in Vietnam no longer read the holy scriptures themselves, they just read their morning revival books. They did not wholeheartedly seek the Lord's revealed words before going to morning meeting of the Lord's day. They slept and woke up late, then brought only their morning revival book, not Bibles, into the meeting room. There they just return and recite from that book only. It is worse and poorer than the meetings of the Protestant denominations that they have condemned heavy before.
Hodos
Hodos, we now have learned about certain sects in China that exposed the deceptions of the Nee and Lee MOTA claims. The Bible says we will know them by their fruit. Sometimes it takes many years for the fruit to be manifest.

Concerning Nee:

Dr. Lily Hsu wrote a book "My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church."

There also has been much discussion about this book on another thread of this forum.

Dr. Hsu documents how MOTA W. Nee became an idol within the Chinese LC's, and his failures caused many of his beloved followers to become ship-wrecked in their faith. Apostle Paul exhorts us to "hold faith and a good conscience." (I Tim 1.19) Paul never exhorts us to "hold" onto him, or his ministry.

Concerning Lee:

Years ago LSM claimed that all of the "Shouters" on mainland China (they said almost ~10,000,000) were their "fruit." LSM sent them endless books from W. Lee to "perfect" them. Then this "Lord Changhou" sect began worshiping Lee, shouting his name. "Changhou" is Lee's Chinese name. Here is a forum thread on this subject.

Once LSM learned that these Chinese saints shouted slogans and claimed Lee as their god, they were forced to disavow any knowledge of them. Such is the ugly fruit of exalting man. Yet LSM still claims that they cannot "honor Lee" too much.
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Old 09-05-2020, 11:25 PM   #21
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Hi Trapped,
These words are very correct: “and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in”… “you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes”.
We are praying for them. Thank you for this helpful advice.
The words you said about the so-called MOTAs are deep and difficult to understand to us in Vietnam. I will think and study about these things more. I don't understand the abbreviation of MOTA.
With God's grace, last time I translated a post of "Very good start, but in progress, many misinterpretations of Scripture" by Fer74 into Vietnamese, then I emailed directly to quite a many leading- ones in the LSM congregations in Vietnam. This time I ask your permission and that of brothers Ohio and Nell to let me translate your just three posts here and translate them into Vietnamese, then post them on facebook and email to them all.
Thank You so much-
Hodos
The MOTA abbreviation stands for "Minister Of The Age". Sorry I didn't say that in my first post. The saints you quoted did not say "minister of the age" (MOTA), but when speaking of Nee and Lee being the "zenith" of a "recovery", the MOTA concept may be a big part of what is behind that thought.

In the semi-annual trainings, the co-workers often remind and emphasize that Nee and Lee are the "ministers of the age" (except they are not), and recently even added a new layer of idolatry that Nee and Lee are better and more constituted ministers of the age than any of the ministers of the age before them.

Are you aware of the teaching of "minister of the age"? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

You are welcome to translate any portions of my posts that you think are helpful.
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Old 09-06-2020, 01:24 AM   #22
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Hi Trapped,

Thank You.

You say:"Are you aware of the teaching of 'minister of the age'."? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

In Viet Nam, all the LSM saints in Vietnam have idolised Witness Lee, not Watchman Nee. I see that they consider him as the head of one religion. Witness Lee cannot be in error. I heard some ones from LSM in US coming to VietNam to preach "the teaching of "minister of the age" many years ago. You should explain this false teaching clearly so that I can translated it into Vietnamese and help the blind saints in Viet nam. The LSM saints in Viet Nam are fervently welcoming "The New Man", "The universal Church", and the religion of LSM. Please explain this false teaching also. Thank you so much.

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Old 09-07-2020, 03:05 PM   #23
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Ropes tie up the LSM leaders of in Vietnam. There are chains binding LSM churches in Viet Nam as follows:

1/ The principle of one city/one church. Many saints have been opened their eyes to see what was wrong with the LSM, but they are afraid of committing crimes that divide the Body of Christ, so they dare not step out.

2/ Deputy Authority. Someone from LSM came to Vietnam to choose 12 rough elders (not including Nehemiah and me, thank God) as the co-worker team of Vietnam. All saints bowed fearfully in obedience to those delegated authorities.

Thank God, after I entered this forum, I saw the principle of one city/ one church, and the power of delegating authority (acting as a world company director) are two false doctrines.

3/ In 1999, the elders of the LSM churhes in Vietnam gathered to draft a statement of absolute commitment to obeying the US LSM. (Thank God they did not let me and Nehemiah sign the bond.) I feel all the restored congregations in Viet Nam are the property of LSM.

4/ LSM uses money to put the yoke of slavery to LSM churhes in Vietnam. In 2015 they gave many many money to build headquarters office, and annually send a lot of money to pay salary for employees like full-timers and Nazarite men.

Dear brothers,
Please pray for us and help us to break the chains to free those whose eyes have been opened by God to see something wrong with LSM.
After I post articles like this on Facebook, they will probably attack us, even using the gangster method.
“But Jehovah is with me (us) as a mighty terrible one; therefore my persecutors shall stumble and shall not prevail; they shall be greatly ashamed, for they have not prospered: it shall be an everlasting confusion that shall not be forgotten”. Jeremiah 20:11.

Hodos.
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:34 PM   #24
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Hodos,

I still owe you a response about the minister of the age (MOTA) (although you do reference deputy authority in your latest post and there is some overlap between the two concepts), but just wanted to respond to a part of your latest post very briefly.

Regarding one city/one church - I can personally testify to having left the LC and gone to another church (a dreaded "denomination") and have participated in taking the table outside the LC. I didn't get struck by lightning. I didn't get hit by a car. And most importantly, God has not left me or turned a cold shoulder towards me. I think many others here can say the same thing. This type of teaching is a classic fear-based type teaching known to be used by abusive groups - "if you leave us for whatever valid or invalid reason, for whatever bogus or even scriptural-sounding reason, you will suffer condemnation/judgment/repercussion!!" I may be too strong here, but I think there are some grounds to say it this strongly: if anyone is being gripped by a fear other than the fear of the Holy One, then that fear is from the devil. There is a good Christian song that sums it up well: "Fear is a liar." God desires that no man perish, and sent His Son to accomplish this fact. He will not turn around and cause the perishing of one of His children who goes to meet with other blood-washed, Spirit-filled believers.

Regarding the 1999 absolute statement to LSM, do you happen to have a copy of that statement? Did LSM, or anyone, respond to the statement, and if so, how did they respond? I'm blanking on what was happening in the LC in 1999.....was this part of a larger number of churches in the world signing allegiance statements, or was this unique to Vietnam at the time?

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Old 09-10-2020, 06:06 PM   #25
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Hi Trapped

Thank you for your words full of divine life, and light and love about the giving up on the path of LSM.

I want to talk more about the document promising loyalty to LSM of Vietnamese elders. In 1999, in the home of my brother-in-law in Vinh Long city, I and about 15 localities signed the promising document. At that moment my heart was very happy in my stupid blindness.

In August of this year, 2020, brother Chuong from Dalat city called me and said something I never knew. He said the bond in Vinh Long has been canceled. The top leading ones invited the Vietnamese elders to gather in other place (do not invite me and Nehemiah) to sign the second document promising to be loyal to LSM. Strangely, Chuong did not sign both documents. He and his saints in Dalat city have also abandoned LSM since 2013.

I think maybe for the security of the Vietnamese saints, the LSM did not allow the Vietnamese files to be imported into their general computer, and perhaps kept this document separately in the Vietnamese section's room in the LSM's large office. I did not see and know anything about the second file except what Mr. Chuong told me this August. Thank you, you and the brothers there, for your wholehearted concern for the spiritual well-being of the saints in Vietnam. Thanks.

Hodos
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Old 09-10-2020, 08:15 PM   #26
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So there was a second document signed with a reduced number of elders signing it? When was the first document promising loyalty to LSM (the bond) cancelled? When was the second document signed? Was this all 20 years ago, and you just found out about it this year? Or was the second document signed this year?
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Old 09-11-2020, 08:10 PM   #27
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Hi Trapped,

I'm sorry that my just last words weren't clear enough. And I also missed this question of yours: "Did LSM, or anyone, respond to the statement, and if so, how did they respond?" Two documents were signed by the elders in the same year, 1999, in two different locations, with a time span of a few months. The first document was annulled at the second location. They canceled it because, I felt it in my spirit, they didn't want me to participate in the building of their churches in Vietnam. The second document has more elders than signed. When I was informed by bro. Chuong from Dalat city this August about the second document, I was amazed very much and thanked God that I did not have to sign my name in order to put a yoke of slavery upon the beloved Vietnamese congregations.

LSM responded by inviting two top leaders to go to the US for a month's training, and then placing an old man as a manager and a young person as director. The second one seems to be the Vietnamese top co-worker of LSM. LSM bookstores have also opened a branch in Vietnam, probably since 2008. This person has banned me from buying their books before 2013. He is ruling the LSM Vietnamese congregations in the title of LSM bookstore in Vietnam. A member of the LSM bought him and also bought his loyalty with a large sum of money, on the excuse of helping him build church meeting hall in his home.

Dear brothers and sisters. During the 1980s, you had stepped out of the LSM one by one, while at that time, we were just get ready, barely, naively on the road to the recovery of the Lord, unaware that we had been trapped gradually by the LSM. Were Enjoying some true truths, but also were gullible in their lies. So please pray and guide us in the right way, who have been behind you for many years. Thank you.

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Old 09-11-2020, 09:04 PM   #28
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Hodos,

Thank you for the clarification. I think I understand now.

Have you read any books on spiritual abuse? For example "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Johnsen and VanVonderen? Or "Healing Spiritual Abuse" by Ken Blue? There is a certain level of help that saints who used to be in the LSM churches can give you, and then there is a different level of help (not better, not worse, but just helpful in a different way) that people who have never set foot in an LSM-related church can provide. It is quite an experience to read books written by people who have never been in an LSM church, but who wrote books that match up with so many characteristics of the LSM churches. These books, which are about spiritual abuse and abusive doctrines found in abusive churches, shine the light on what exactly is going on in the LSM church movement and how these kind of doctrines are found all over the place in other abusive churches and groups with aberrant doctrines.

Somehow, reading these kinds of books helped to release some of the chains around me. They helped to pull my perspective out from feeling like I was on the ground in the middle of a battlefield, to being in a plane flying over the battlefield looking down on it from 2,000 feet above the earth. It gives you a totally different perspective, broader, wider. And it shrinks the "authority" of the LSM leaders down to where it belongs - about an inch high, if that. I wonder if these books would be helpful to you and others?

There is another book called "When Narcissism Comes to Church" by Chuck DeGroat. I have read a portion of the book, but have not read the whole thing yet, so I cannot recommend it outright, but it seemed to be on the right track.

Another book recommendation that appeared on Jo Casteel's facebook letter thread that many people following the thread bought is called "The Uriah Syndrome" by Robert Dixon. He explains how the Bible shows that it's the church itself that has the authority (say, to discipline sinning saints, appoint elders, etc), and not the elders and co-workers. Yes, elders/apostles can be involved, but the church should actually be much more involved than the LC ever allows. Once you read it, you start to see that concept pop up all over in the Word.

Some of the books have recommendations for people who have come out of an abusive church. Some of them have recommendations for leaders who have realized they took part in an abusive system. There are other books out there on the same topic too. I think these are an invaluable read for anyone who has touched the LSM movement.

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Old 09-12-2020, 06:27 AM   #29
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Hi Trapped,
Thank God. Praise Him! Thank you deeply in my heart. What a precious introduction to the four precious, rare books — the spiritual antidote of God timely for the healing of the saints in general and in Vienam
I don't know these 4 books yet and am praying to find a way to buy them. I saw Jo Casteel's facebook and asked to befriend him.
Thank you once again because my heart is so touched by the Lord's wonderful providence. Hodos
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Old 09-17-2020, 07:34 PM   #30
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Hi Trapped,
Thank God. Praise Him! Thank you deeply in my heart. What a precious introduction to the four precious, rare books the spiritual antidote of God timely for the healing of the saints in general and in Vienam
I don't know these 4 books yet and am praying to find a way to buy them. I saw Jo Casteel's facebook and asked to befriend him.
Thank you once again because my heart is so touched by the Lord's wonderful providence. Hodos
Hodos,

I hope they are helpful!

I forgot to send these links along. This is a two-part interview with the authors of one of the books I recommended, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". Just in case you have a hard time getting your hands on the book, you can at least watch the interviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGL_Wl7BAfE (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MelXy5Gj7Jc (Part 2)

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