Prominent Local Church "Shouter" invades Harvard University

"Now we know why Witness Lee...
Only wanted people with moh-nee..."

Recently, a prominent member of the Local Church Shouter group of Witness Lee gave US $350 million dollars to Harvard University to get them to name one of their schools after his family.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/harva...ion-1410148865

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/20...public-health/

Meanwhile, this same prominent member has bought over US $120 million of property around the Harvard Square next to the University campus.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/20...lionaire-buys/

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/...8vM/story.html

Meanwhile, the same prominent member was yelling at his disciples aka Full Time Trainees in group gatherings in Boston to "take Harvard" and "take MIT" and "take BU". Why? "Because 'our brother' (Witness Lee) wanted this. It is God's move."

Did the Trustees of Harvard University decide not to connect the dots? Were they blinded by those zeroes? Or do they really have no clue what they received when they accepted this man's money?

A US attorney William Bennett investigated the links between the Local Church, Shouters, Lord Changshou sect, and Eastern Lightning sect.

http://www.chsource.org/en/articles/...gions/item/537

These groups flood the college campus with tracts. Then they start to work on respondents, called "contacts". These contacts are made to open, consider, and trust via intense personal relations. Then the contacts are gradually separated from family, friends, and others. Their brains are literally re-programmed with the teachings of the sect.

The group only goes after people with money. They only are interested in the Bible as much as they can use it to get you to give in to their system. If you quote them anything that is not "their" verses they get nervous or upset with you.

What’s in the Eastern Lightning Handbook?

One of the books written by the EL is an “insider handbook,” instructing members how to ruin a church, gather information, win the trust of leaders, convert pastors, and even how to bring an entire congregation under the influence of EL. The book is divided into three chapters. Here is a summary of direct quotes from the EL handbook:

1. Spying is making use of various connections and methods to gain access to the inner workings of churches, winning their trust and confidence, and understanding their structure and plans.
2. Do not speak in such a way as to make others suspicious of you. Be sober and normal, leaving a good impression. Let proper and orderly patterns govern your speech, sleeping, and eating. Be well mannered, dress neatly and normally....
3. You must have some basic knowledge of the Bible. Take special note on what Jesus said in the New Testament, the epistles of Paul, and passages in Revelation concerning saving grace....
4. Know some of the church’s methods of training and indoctrination.
5. Do not spy out these denominations: San Zi (Three-Self Church), Catholics, Dong Zhen (Eastern Orthodox), Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, Beiliwang (Established King Church), Hongyi Liya (New Testament Church), etc... [Note: the last two groups mentioned are pseudo-Christian cults. Interestingly, the instruction to avoid spying out Three-Self and Catholic churches is contrary to reports from both organizations that the EL has infiltrated their midst and won many converts.]

6. You should spy out the following: Those who believe in Jesus, pray to Jesus, who thirst for God’s revelation; Real believers who truly love God, those with no serious physical disability and a sane mind.
7. How to get the most out of spying: (a) You must try our best not to let people know you are lying, even as we for the sake of our work speak not the truth. (b) During your first few times in a new church speak little and ask many questions. (c) Try to understand the situation, what they emphasize, so that your actions can fall in with theirs, and not raise objections to your presence. (d) Say what they want to hear. Be sincere in prayer, mention some moving, sad things, and ask for more blessings for their families and the church. (e) For those sheep more selfish, or those with families, observe their behavior and make use of their weak points to maintain contact. For example, oblige people if they want to take you as their mentor or confidant. (f) Some believe crying is important in churches, so you should also cry with sadness and bitterness, thus moving their hearts and winning their trust. (g) Others believe a Christian should be outwardly suffering, or persecuted. Therefore you should act with a greater degree of seriousness in order to satisfy such people. (h) Do not, at anytime, preach during this spy stage. Only share some personal experiences or short testimonies, so that people have a good impression of you.

8. How to remove suspicion during spying: Many denominations do not swear oaths before God, so make sure you do not do so. When necessary, weep or kneel to pray, speak sincerely, cry as though it is from the heart and not faked.
9. Bridge building occurs after you have laid a good network of contacts. You will then be able to change people’s perspectives, picking on ideas or thoughts which will easily disrupt God’s work, changing them one by one. In other words, the work of bridge building is to introduce your new teachings that will spark in them “interest,” “appetite,” and “a heart of desire.”

http://math.ucr.edu/~zguan/ecult.htm

The Local Church Shouter group buying legitimacy, using the Harvard name, to remove themselves from the EL group association. But look at their techniques: both use multitude of names to hide (Christians on Campus, Lord's Move to Europe, Bible for america), both want people with money. Both use the Bible as much as it is useful and no more, have no interest in learning, Christian discussion and openness. Both prey on nominal fringe believers, and are not interested in mature Christians or unbelievers. Both call their leader absolute acting God on earth. Etc.

Either the Trustees of Harvard University sold themselves out for a few hundred million dollars or they don't have a clue what they are getting. They really have no clue.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

Either the Trustees of Harvard University sold themselves out for a few hundred million dollars or they don't have a clue what they are getting. They really have no clue.

Sold themselves out? C'mon man!

They are getting U.S. dollars made in China. How good is that!

I remember Gerald Chan from way back. He was a friend of an elder in Columbus. They both were in Physics.

The brother made it big financially, and is giving back to Harvard. Now personally I would not have given my money to such a liberal institution, but do you really think that Harvard should give the money back because the guy reads Lee's books? C'mon now!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

do you really think that Harvard should give the money back because the guy reads Lee's books? C'mon now!

My math says 350 million + 120 million = 480 million. My experience says a half-billion dollars will buy respect in most towns, and why should Boston be any different?

[rayliotta]

Gerald Chan gave the commencement speech at the Harvard School of Public Health in 2012. Full transcript available at the link below.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/fea...-remarks-chan/

I looked it over and he had a lot of interesting thoughts. Here's a small excerpt:

Originally Posted by Harvard SPH Commencement Speech 2012

"My first advice to you, graduates, is to enrich your lives with ideas, even big ideas. Read, reflect, and ruminate (the new three Rs). Observe and deduce, postulate and verify, look for connections. Be curious, be open-minded, reframe problems rather than just looking for answers, have the courage to differ from conventional wisdom, do not dismiss your intuition. Discuss, debate and discourse with others. Look into history, watch current affairs; study the sacred texts, observe humanity. These are the mental habits conducive to the spontaneous generation of ideas. A life is rich when it is rich with ideas."

These are ideas I did not hear much in my upbringing in the Lord's Recovery. I would like to ask Gerald Chan a few questions. Mr Chan, would you speak these words to the young adults in the Lord's Recovery? Do you think the admonition to "read, reflect, and ruminate...observe and deduce, postulate and verify" is consistent with repeated admonitions to "get out of your mind," such as the "church kids" in the Lord's Recovery so frequently hear? Mr Chan, do you believe that members of the Lord's Recovery are -- in all actuality and in all honesty -- actively encouraged to "be curious, be open-minded," and to "discuss, debate and discourse," within the framework of the Lord's Recovery as a group?

I think the OP of the thread can be expanded. I have seen Local Church Shouters in South America called Estancia Arvore da Vida (Farm of tree of life). They very much follow point 1 of EL handbook.

1. Spying is making use of various connections and methods to gain access to the inner workings of churches, winning their trust and confidence, and understanding their structure and plans.

Many South American churches are run by lay preachers with little education. The EAV Shouters come in and push EAV materials. They try to convert the preacher, or pull away a few of the weaker members. But first they pretend to be simply other Christians seeking fellowship, and building the Body.

I am not sure of EAV relationship with US Local Church Shouters. But they follow similar points as in EL handbook. By its fruit you know a tree.

[awareness]

At first I was going to post that Eastern Lightening wasn't as bad as ISIS in Iraq and Syria. But then I read about all the kidnappings, torture, and killings and realized that they are just as bad, but don't show it on youtube.

Religion makes people do not just crazy things but very bad things.

That EL came out of Nee says something about Nee, and Lee.

And Aron, says something also about Chinese culture.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have seen Local Church Shouters in South America called Estancia Arvore da Vida (Farm of tree of life). They very much follow point 1 of EL handbook.

Many South American churches are run by lay preachers with little education. The EAV Shouters come in and push EAV materials. They try to convert the preacher, or pull away a few of the weaker members. But first they pretend to be simply other Christians seeking fellowship, and building the Body.

I am not sure of EAV relationship with US Local Church Shouters. But they follow similar points as in EL handbook. By its fruit you know a tree.

Estancia Arvore da Vida is the large ranch not too far from Campinas in Brazil, used by the Dong faction of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Dong Yu Lan built up his own version using Witness Lee's materials and methods. He would attend a training in Anaheim, go back to Sao Paulo, mull it over and six weeks later presented his training on the Estancia. He also had a large publishing arm called Arvore da Vida (The Tree of Life). They would send buses filled with books and other materials into the country and into several countries in South America. Dong's movement had grown and had rivaled Lee's in size in the US.

He had measurable success in South America and that was more than likely the reason why Witness Lee allowed it. (They probably knew each other from before, either on the mainland or in Taiwan.)

After the death of Witness Lee the Blended's took over. Now you know what they did to those who would not submit, like Titus Chu. Dong also refused and the inevitable resulted. Dong then branched out to Portuguese-speaking countries in Europe; also in Africa where he went to countries which where formerly Portuguese colonies or where large Portuguese-speaking communities existed.

(This is quite funny because I believe David Dong is one of the Blendeds. If he indeed is, he was part of the decision to oust Dong Yu Lan.)

You state, "Many South American churches are run by lay preachers with little education." This is the danger of making generalized statements based on rumor because this is simply not true everywhere. One of those in Dong's inner circle is a noted authority on Physics and particularly on the Strength of Materials; another is an architect. We should not slander unless we know the real situation.

Since Dong had refused to be blended, he was kicked out by the Blendeds. Then there started to develop a phrase that was quite amusing (it sounds familiar but not quite): "First there was Brother Nee, then Brother Lee, then Brother Dong." Of course, the version by the Blendeds, which we know, was "First there was Brother Nee, then Brother Lee, then the Brothers We." ("We" being the Blended Brothers.)

I never witnessed anything remotely like what is described as Eastern Lighting so I cannot respond to that. If they do use their methods it must be a recent development.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

That EL came out of Nee says something about Nee, and Lee.

And Aron, says something also about Chinese culture.

The EL sect worships a Chinese woman as God. The Lord Changshou sect worships WL as God. The LSM sect follows WL/Blendeds as acting God. The Brazilian sect follows Dong as acting God. The GLA sect follows Chu as acting God.

They are all personality cults. Now, personality cults don't need to be oriental (see Branch Davidians, Heavens Gate, Peoples Temple), but these are, and their Chinese culture is held to be divinely mandated.

When RG told a brother, "We do what we are told", and when MP told you to take his personality as your own, they were simply channeling their oriental master WL. Their only fault was being blunt, and not being subtle about it. They didn't hide it in some pseudo-spiritual clap-trap like "being one with the apostle" or "closely following the apostle." They just told it like it is.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I never witnessed anything remotely like what is described as Eastern Lighting so I cannot respond to that. If they do use their methods it must be a recent development.

Maybe the point was that while LSM branch avoids other Christian groups like the plague, the EAV branch actively seeks to infiltrate and undermine them. Just guessing here. I don't have any personal observation.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Friedel

(This is quite funny because I believe David Dong is one of the Blendeds. If he indeed is, he was part of the decision to oust Dong Yu Lan.)

Friedel, can you tell us, what is the relationship between Dong Yu Lan and David Dong?

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Friedel, can you tell us, what is the relationship between Dong Yu Lan and David Dong?

David Dong is Dong Yu Lan's eldest son. He is/was the only one living in the US. The others work with their father in Brazil and South America.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Friedel

David Dong is Dong Yu Lan's eldest son. He is/was the only one living in the US. The others work with their father in Brazil and South America.

David Dong also lived in Chicago, so he was close to those in the GLA.

Hard to believe a bright guy like him could throw his own family under the bus.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

David Dong also lived in Chicago, so he was close to those in the GLA.

Hard to believe a bright guy like him could throw his own family under the bus.

God, family, country has long ago been replaced by LEE, LSM, LOCAL CHURCH. May God have MERCY.

[aron]

I'm not sure if the title of this thread is accurate. The connection between the mainland China shouters and the Living Stream Ministry local churches, where Gerald Chan meets, is uncertain to me. Does anyone have info there? The only thing I remember was when Lee was counting up his loyalists across the globe one day in a meeting he mentioned the Chinese Shouters. The number was high compared to elsewhere and he seemed pleased, the crowd gave an "amen". But that is all I remember.

But an interesting thing about the connection between these kinds of groups (Local Church, Shouters, Eastern Lightning) is the skewing of scripture and the unbalanced obsession on certain "key" passages. One example is "Paul, a chosen vessel" in Acts 9:15. Paul was a chosen vessel, set apart. With the LSM spin on this, I guess Peter and John and Nathaniel were not chosen? Somehow Paul being "chosen" by God was different, to this view. And, guess what, so was Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee.

This elevation of some believers, and the creation of a special lineage, isn't too far from the Shouters worshipping Witness Lee as God incarnate, and the Eastern Lightning saying that God chose a humble Chinese girl, who failed her university exams and was in an existentialist crisis, to be today's unique light to the gentiles. There are differences in extremes but the theme is the same. A special messenger has been raised up, with a special message and a special work.

Here is Ron Kangas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aKkfgPk_kU

I also noticed that when I googled "Paul a chosen vessel" that three of the first five sites were LDS sites. Again, this suggests to me that if we can convince people that the apostle Paul was specially anointed, above and beyond all the rest, then why not Mormon founder Joseph Smith as well? Or Watchman Nee or whomever your "man of the hour" happens to be. The pope or the current president of the LDS church or today's Blended Brothers or whomever is the "specially anointed" one(s).

I have been watching this group for about 6 years. Several Chinese acquaintances of mine have become totally involved. But one has since left and is with the AOG.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

I have been watching this group for about 6 years. Several Chinese acquaintances of mine have become totally involved. But one has since left and is with the AOG.

Are you talking about the Shouters, or Witness Lee's group proper?

Originally Posted by awareness

Are you talking about the Shouters, or Witness Lee's group proper?

That is the question, isn't it? I have seen this man screaming at the the Lee Shouter Church trainees to "take Harvard." He has given hundreds of millions to that school. He or someone with deep pockets is funding a new Lee Shouter Church building nearby. They have dozens of trainees that I have seen, on campus, paid for by whom????

http://www.1299massave.com/

Someone with deep pockets bought tens of thousands of Lee Church bibles which they tried to smuggle to PRC and got confiscated. But then, suddenly Lee's Church they denied any knowledge. But others there bragged of all the Shouters in China. So connect the dots...did you read William Bennet's article linking the EL, China Shouters the California-based Lee Shouter Church? Clearly there are historical, cultural, and ideological connections (an unbalanced and borderline heretical view of God's trinity, authoritative structure of church hierarchy). Lee's theology and church structure clearly provided the basis. But what are current organizational ties? Again, that's the question, isn't it? These groups are so secretive that you are left with your own crayon to connect the dots. Harvard didn't want to connect the dots, because they saw all that cash stacked up on the table. So be it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

That is the question, isn't it? I have seen this man screaming at the the Lee Shouter Church trainees to "take Harvard." He has given hundreds of millions to that school. He or someone with deep pockets is funding a new Lee Shouter Church building nearby. They have dozens of trainees that I have seen, on campus, paid for by whom????

http://www.1299massave.com/

That link states:
"Construction is expected to begin soon and to be completed by the end of 2011"

Here's an update dated 2013
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/...ss_ave_to.html

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

But others there bragged of all the Shouters in China. So connect the dots...

Well I have to admit that while in Lee's local church I was an unapologetic Shouter. That connects the dots, as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

did you read William Bennet's article linking the EL, China Shouters the California-based Lee Shouter Church?

Yes, I dug into it. Thanks for that link.

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

Clearly there are historical, cultural, and ideological connections (an unbalanced and borderline heretical view of God's trinity, authoritative structure of church hierarchy). Lee's theology and church structure clearly provided the basis. But what are current organizational ties? Again, that's the question, isn't it? These groups are so secretive that you are left with your own crayon to connect the dots. Harvard didn't want to connect the dots, because they saw all that cash stacked up on the table. So be it.

Money is a very effective tool to spread cults. But the real good news has nothing to do with money.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

That is the question, isn't it? I have seen this man screaming at the the Lee Shouter Church trainees to "take Harvard." He has given hundreds of millions to that school. He or someone with deep pockets is funding a new Lee Shouter Church building nearby. They have dozens of trainees that I have seen, on campus, paid for by whom????

http://www.1299massave.com/

Someone with deep pockets bought tens of thousands of Lee Church bibles which they tried to smuggle to PRC and got confiscated. But then, suddenly Lee's Church they denied any knowledge. But others there bragged of all the Shouters in China. So connect the dots...did you read William Bennet's article linking the EL, China Shouters the California-based Lee Shouter Church? Clearly there are historical, cultural, and ideological connections (an unbalanced and borderline heretical view of God's trinity, authoritative structure of church hierarchy). Lee's theology and church structure clearly provided the basis. But what are current organizational ties? Again, that's the question, isn't it? These groups are so secretive that you are left with your own crayon to connect the dots. Harvard didn't want to connect the dots, because they saw all that cash stacked up on the table. So be it.

Mr Eagan,

Care to give more specific examples of what you're referring to? It's clear that there is some connection between Witness Lee and the Shouters, at least in origin. And it's clear that "Eastern Lightning" was started by an ex-member of the Shouters. (I remember hearing that one President of Taiwan had formerly been a member of the Lord's Recovery. Does that connect the LRC to the government of Taiwan?)

I wonder if the connection might be analogous to the connection between the 1930's Brethren in the UK, and the Living Stream Ministry in the 60's-present. Of course, there was/is NO organizational connection. Nee/Lee ultimately repudiated the Brethren as yet another "denomination". But, clearly, various doctrines, attitudes, and practices of the Brethren were very influential in the development of the Recovery.

What would make us believe that the "connection" between the Recovery -- or the Shouters -- and EL, is anything more than that? Some ideas that were carried over, with others rejected, and some new, extreme, ideas added on top of everything else?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

That is the question, isn't it? I have seen this man screaming at the the Lee Shouter Church trainees to "take Harvard."

Is this the William Bennett article you're referring to? --

http://www.chsource.org/en/articles/...gions/item/537

(In case anyone's wondering, this would NOT appear to be the same William Bennett of Book of Virtues and Reagan fame.)

Even this article acknowledges that the "modalism" [sic] of the Recovery is not as bad as the "modalism" of the EL --

Originally Posted by William Bennett article

(Of course, unlike Eastern Lightning, Witness Lee maintained that the Father and Son are "eternally distinct."⁷)

Here's more --

Originally Posted by William Bennett article

I think its ideas and the way they are expressed find a resonance among certain groups in China but will not have much impact on groups outside China. To take just one example, the idea that Christ had to return to China first because Chinese are the worst people on earth will sound ludicrous to most Westerners. But to the Chinese ear it may not sound quite so absurd. Harsh criticism of the Chinese people has a long tradition in China as a respected patriotic activity.

I found this interesting. Does this resonate w/Chinese cultural tendencies of shaming/scapegoating that carried over into the culture of the Recovery? Where's Ohio?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

That is the question, isn't it? I have seen this man screaming at the the Lee Shouter Church trainees to "take Harvard."

One last question for you, Mr Eagan. Care to provide any more specifics re the meeting or meetings you're referring to here? I don't doubt what you're saying. But I'm aware that in the past, folks in the Recovery have felt stifled in recruitment efforts on private university campuses (Rice, for example).

If Harvard is proving to be a different experience for them thus far -- before or after a 1/3 billion US$ donation -- we would be interested to hear what you know. Thanks.

rayliotta

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I found this interesting. Does this resonate w/Chinese cultural tendencies of shaming/scapegoating that carried over into the culture of the Recovery?

Where's Ohio?

What kind of question is that?

Just look above Kentucky!

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What kind of question is that?

Just look above Kentucky!

Haha. I was just paraphrasing The Pretenders' song. Just kidding.

[rayliotta]

Chan Family Makes Another U.S. University Donation

(This may or may not have any relevance.)

Originally Posted by rayliotta

One last question for you, Mr Eagan. Care to provide any more specifics re the meeting or meetings you're referring to here? I don't doubt what you're saying. But I'm aware that in the past, folks in the Recovery have felt stifled in recruitment efforts on private university campuses (Rice, for example).

If Harvard is proving to be a different experience for them thus far -- before or after a 1/3 billion US$ donation -- we would be interested to hear what you know. Thanks.

rayliotta

I went to only one meeting. They were talking about recruiting on the college campus. Here is what I saw:

.Don't let them know our group, at first. We are just Christians... Christians on campus.

.Make friends with them. Pay attention to them. Listen. Connect.

.Get them to come to our conferences and trainings. Isolate them in an intense setting where they are vulnerable and open.

.Get them to see that Shouters alone have the way and the teaching. Everything else is wrong. Family and friends are the worst! Distractions from hell!

.Get them to be recruiters right away. Use them to reach other recruits. That will solidify their position in the group.

.Always pressure them for more. More time, more commitment. Constant pressure.

All this stuff looked very similar to me, to the EL recruiting handbook that I saw. Except EL uses physical violence. Otherwise very similar. Same dots, different name.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

an interesting thing about the connection between these kinds of groups (Local Church, Shouters, Eastern Lightning) is the skewing of scripture and the unbalanced obsession on certain "key" passages. One example is "Paul, a chosen vessel" in Acts 9:15. Paul was a chosen vessel, set apart. With the LSM spin on this, I guess Peter and John and Nathaniel were not chosen? Somehow Paul being "chosen" by God was different, to this view. And, guess what, so was Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee.

This elevation of some believers, and the creation of a special lineage, isn't too far from the Shouters worshipping Witness Lee as God incarnate, and the Eastern Lightning saying that God chose a humble Chinese girl, who failed her university exams and was in an existentialist crisis, to be today's unique light to the gentiles. There are differences in extremes but the theme is the same. A special messenger has been raised up, with a special message and a special work.

... when I googled "Paul a chosen vessel" that three of the first five sites were LDS sites. Again, this suggests to me that if we can convince people that the apostle Paul was specially anointed, above and beyond all the rest, then why not Mormon founder Joseph Smith as well? Or Watchman Nee or whomever your "man of the hour" happens to be. The pope or the current president of the LDS church or today's Blended Brothers or whomever is the "specially anointed" one(s).

The problem with these groups (LSM, LDS) and their elevation of "chosen vessels" with "special anointings" is that they miss the basic concept of Christianity: there is one elevated Chosen Vessel. His name is Jesus Christ. Yes, Paul was set aside for the gospel to the gentiles, as was Peter to the Jews. Etc. But everybody is set aside (sanctified) for some work. Everyone is special in God's eyes. On this side of the Bema there is no "super special" Christian, to be elevated above the flock. To set someone apart, who is living on this earth, in the flesh of sin, as "special" as opposed to the "faceless proletariat" like Nee & Lee claimed, with one "chosen vessel" being the "apostle of the age" and the rest being "small potatoes", is just wrong. It is not biblical, it's an Asian cultural norm superimposed upon the scriptural text, and it completely distorts the gospel message of Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul would laugh Witness Lee out of the room if he tried to pull that stuff. Paul would neither allow Lee to elevate him to "acting God" status, nor would he "get in line" behind Nee and/or Lee. Paul got his marching orders from God, not from Nee or Lee, and if they needed marching orders from Paul, he would probably tell them to go and pray to their Father in heaven. Paul said, "We are men, like you" (Acts 14:15; cf Acts 10:26). If Nee or Lee tried to pull that elitist "chosen vessel" nonsense on Paul he wouldn't give in to them, not even for a moment (cf Gal 2:5).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The problem with these groups (LSM, LDS) and their elevation of "chosen vessels" with "special anointings" is that they miss the basic concept of Christianity: there is one elevated Chosen Vessel. His name is Jesus Christ. Yes, Paul was set aside for the gospel to the gentiles, as was Peter to the Jews. Etc. But everybody is set aside (sanctified) for some work. Everyone is special in God's eyes. On this side of the Bema there is no "super special" Christian, to be elevated above the flock. To set someone apart, who is living on this earth, in the flesh of sin, as "special" as opposed to the "faceless proletariat" like Nee & Lee claimed, with one "chosen vessel" being the "apostle of the age" and the rest being "small potatoes", is just wrong. It is not biblical, it's an Asian cultural norm superimposed upon the scriptural text, and it completely distorts the gospel message of Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul would laugh Witness Lee out of the room if he tried to pull that stuff. Paul would neither allow Lee to elevate him to "acting God" status, nor would he "get in line" behind Nee and/or Lee. Paul got his marching orders from God, not from Nee or Lee, and if they needed marching orders from Paul, he would probably tell them to go and pray to their Father in heaven. Paul said, "We are men, like you" (Acts 14:15; cf Acts 10:26). If Nee or Lee tried to pull that elitist "chosen vessel" nonsense on Paul he wouldn't give in to them, not even for a moment (cf Gal 2:5).

Amen to this!

I'll never forget Kangas' statement in the book RTRA in the aftermath of the 80's so-called rebellion, "can we ever honor OUR BROTHER too much?"

Oh how they loved to "honor" Lee, while dishonoring everyone else!

[aron]

Get them to come to our conferences and trainings. Isolate them in an intense setting where they are vulnerable and open.

They gave a monthly conference in the Alewife station meeting hall in Cambridge. Gerald Chan told the 150 college aged people about the vanity of religion (Galatians) and philosophy (Colossians). In other words your school can't save you and neither can any other church.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

They gave a monthly conference in the Alewife station meeting hall in Cambridge. Gerald Chan told the 150 college aged people about the vanity of religion (Galatians) and philosophy (Colossians). In other words your school can't save you and neither can any other church.

And yet, they love it whenever a church kid gets accepted to Harvard...

[Freedom]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like some obscure brother (Gerald Chan) has rose to prominence in the LC because he has lots of money. Is there something else other than his significant wealth at play here?

I honestly never heard of this brother until I started hearing some gossip from FTTA attendees about a brother who has lots of money. It seems like many know who this brother is now. Like I said, I don't know if there's any other factors at play, but to the casual observer, it all seems suspicious.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

And yet, they love it whenever a church kid gets accepted to Harvard...

You got that right. We had one who got a full scholarship.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like some obscure brother (Gerald Chan) has rose to prominence in the LC because he has lots of money. Is there something else other than his significant wealth at play here?

I honestly never heard of this brother until I started hearing some gossip from FTTA attendees about a brother who has lots of money. It seems like many know who this brother is now. Like I said, I don't know if there's any other factors at play, but to the casual observer, it all seems suspicious.

He was a rising star back in the 70's, at least my local elder in Columbus thought so.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like some obscure brother (Gerald Chan) has rose to prominence in the LC because he has lots of money. Is there something else other than his significant wealth at play here?

I honestly never heard of this brother until I started hearing some gossip from FTTA attendees about a brother who has lots of money. It seems like many know who this brother is now. Like I said, I don't know if there's any other factors at play, but to the casual observer, it all seems suspicious.

I was once told that there was a brother, who was a billionaire, who had helped finance things in the Recovery over the years. I was told he was from Singapore, though the brother who told me seemed uncertain as to where he was from. I suppose he may have been referring to Mr Chan, but I'm not sure.

Does this ring a bell to anyone?

[UntoHim]

Ronnie and Gerald Chan. I seem to remember Ronnie more for some reason, maybe he visited Orange County a few times? Anyway, just google them and you'll get lots of info.

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Gerald Chan gave the commencement speech at the Harvard School of Public Health in 2012. Full transcript available at the link below.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/fea...-remarks-chan/

I looked it over and he had a lot of interesting thoughts. I would like to ask Gerald Chan a few questions. Mr Chan, would you speak these words to the young adults in the Lord's Recovery? Do you think the admonition to "read, reflect, and ruminate...observe and deduce, postulate and verify" is consistent with repeated admonitions to "get out of your mind," such as the "church kids" in the Lord's Recovery so frequently hear? Mr Chan, do you believe that members of the Lord's Recovery are -- in all actuality and in all honesty -- actively encouraged to "be curious, be open-minded," and to "discuss, debate and discourse," within the framework of the Lord's Recovery as a group?

Bringing these questions forward. Did Mr. Chan speak out of line, encouraging young college students to debate and to question? It doesn't sound like what is heard in the Local Church SSOT, college conferences and Full Time Trainings.

Why the disparity between what's spoken for public consumption and what's internal? Reminds me of WL telling the Seattle newspaper reporter, "Here, we are so free" whilst Ray Graver was telling Bill Mallon, "Here we do what we are told."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Bringing these questions forward. Did Mr. Chan speak out of line, encouraging young college students to debate and to question? It doesn't sound like what is heard in the Local Church SSOT, college conferences and Full Time Trainings.

Why the disparity between what's spoken for public consumption and what's internal? Reminds me of WL telling the Seattle newspaper reporter, "Here, we are so free" whilst Ray Graver was telling Bill Mallon, "Here we do what we are told."

One of Apostle Paul's boldest and greatest statements was spoken publicly, "I have conducted myself in all good conscience before God until this day." (Acts 23.1) This was so exposing and offensive to all the religious hypocrites of his day, that the high priest immediately commanded that he be punched in the mouth.

When he was later brought before the secular rulers, Paul repeated his incredibly godly boast, "I exercise myself to always have a conscience void of offense toward God and man." (Acts 24.16) When continually challenged by the Corinthians, Paul proclaimed, "Our boasting is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in singleness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom, but in the grace of God, we conducted ourselves in the world, and much more so toward you." (2 Cor 1.12)

Compare this with those who operate at LSM. Take a good, long look at what they say and what they do. How they hire legal teams and public relations experts to spin their behind-the-scenes corruption. Explain why they speak one way to insiders and the opposite way to outsiders. Go read Lee's deposition under oath during those lawsuits. Then be assured that the Blendeds learned all this from W. Lee, who in turn learned all this from W. Nee. The Apostle Paul got so fed up with this kind of duplicitous doublespeak, that he then scolded them, "let your yes be yes, and your no be no." Can you imagine the frustration Paul would have with these wordsmiths at LSM/DCP?

Does this sound like politicians? Of course. Does it sound like fallen ministers caught up in sin? Sure does. Reminds me of the Muslim practice of "taqiyya," which means "that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences" or "gain the upper-hand over an enemy."

There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya (the Shia name). These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.