Relationship

[DP0902]

Is it possible for a brother in the Lord's Recovery to marry a Christian who is not a member of their group? Are they allowed to marry someone from a Christian denomination?

[UntoHim]

DP0902,
Thanks for coming and registering and thanks for posting this super relevant question! I'm sure you will get lots of feedback from our members.

The two operative words you have used are "possible" and "allowed". What I would tell you is that in the Local Church of Witness Lee/Lord's Recovery many things are possible, but that does not necessarily mean that they are allowed.

To be sure, there is no written law or teaching that forbids a Local Church member from marrying a non-member, and customs in this area my vary from locality to locality and region to region and country to country. But in my experience and observation over the last 45+ years, marrying a non-member will at the very least put a strain in the members relationship/standing with most of the other members in their locality. Some elders would be somewhat lenient and maybe even accepting of such a marriage, but most would probably strongly advise the member to not even date an outsider, much, much less marry one.

All this being said, my friend, if this person really loves you then I would trust that with God all things are possible. I'm sure you are familiar with the apostle Paul's words "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends".

We will be thinking of you and praying for you my friend.
-

[DP0902]

Thank you.
Amen.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Is it possible for a brother in the Lord's Recovery to marry a Christian who is not a member of their group? Are they allowed to marry someone from a Christian denomination?

DP0902,

To add to what UntoHim said, this may be easier said than done, but these are the questions that the sister should ask the brother directly. You have titled your post "Relationship" and that is an excellent perspective. This will determine if the relationship between a brother and sister is truly between just them or if the Local Church will be in the middle of any marriage relationship that may transpire.

What will be the brother's reaction to your questions? The Local Church has long taught and practiced..."don't ask questions".

Another question, will the sister be expected to leave her denomination and join the Local Church exclusively?

If her parents and friends are also in a Christian denomination, will she be expected to abandon her family and friends?

Ask him if he would be willing to leave the Local Church for you?

I'm sorry for the questions. I know you were looking for answers. I would need honest and truthful answers from the brother before you further plan to begin a life together. Without truth and honesty and transparancy, any relationship between any two people will be almost impossible.

Again, blessings to you, and I pray you will find the answers you are looking for, starting with the man you love. After you have answers from him, look to God for your decision/s going forward.

This is brutally hard, but now is the time to ask the hard questions. You are very wise to ask first.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Is it possible for a brother in the Lord's Recovery to marry a Christian who is not a member of their group? Are they allowed to marry someone from a Christian denomination?

Hi DP0902,

I can’t directly give you an answer ether as other posts stated, however I can tell you from my experience what I know.

I was in the TLR for 12 years, I came there from a Christian background. I was born in a Christian family. The way I came there, was that my wife got introduced to TLR from a relative. I was attending a nondenominational church at the time. The biggest hurdle that anyone that is going marry or trying to marry someone from Christianity, will be a total culture shock that she will go through. I’m very much certain that a person from TLR will not want to go to a church other that the LC. I was given an ultimatum to make a choice between my wife ,kids and LC, or no wife no kids and keep attending Christian church. I knew from the start that there was something wrong with that picture, and my wife going to one church and I’m to another would be devastating. I’m saying this because inevitably if the Christian will not conform to TLC, it will end up in the situation like mine.

Also, I say from the Christian perspective, if that a sister coming in to the TLR, is willing to give up everything that she knows and was taught, and re-learns and buys into the system of LC, she will be always a second rate citizen, or as I like to say, “she will be treated like a jews treat gentiles to this day”. I remember that I was told that I know pretty much nothing about the spirit, my prayers are wrong, everything that I knew from childhood and all Christian beliefs. Basically, she will have to leave everything and the Babylon, and join “the church”. If that does not happen, she is totally on her own! When we came to LC, we lost all of our friends, all relationships with the people and the church we attended where destroyed. It became a vacuum sealed, air tight system, of LC only, and it was devastating for me, and I’ll say it will probably would be harder for a women!

In conclusion, I, and this is my personal opinion and not advise, don’t see the two working together as a unit. Regardless on what the scribes will advice you on, they will never be able to help you with any issue, give you any useful advice, besides the standard “need to get more into the ministry “, “need to destroy your outer man”, etc. None of those people will be there for you when you are going to be facing these challenges between the two of you! And I can promise one thing, the Christian will be blamed for it not working out and never the person or the teachings of TLC! I know quite a few marriages that were destroyed because of the divisive teachings, and no matter what, and for whatever reason, people are refusing to look at the elephant in the room!

I know its as clear as mud, but hopefully my story will help in any way!

The brothers actually touched on this in the recent training. Usually, the brothers are the ones that take the lead. For college grads attending the ftta you have to cut off your relationships, dating for two years. The exception is if you're engaged, but then you can't get married for 2 years while at the training.

You can get married, no one can stop you. But, the one who is inside the local church will be told convince their fiancee to come into the church now or soon there afterwards. If one decides to stay in the church and the other outside. Influence from inside the church from the brothers and sisters will cause problems in their marriage.

[DP0902]

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I was concerned about my partner because he is currently in Full-Time Training and I am aware that he will be trained on Witness Lee's interpretation. We had already agreed not to discuss our contrasting church practices and beliefs in order to avoid any potential conflicts. We had already agreed that he would marry me in our church (Christian denomination) and not in their local church. We're both legal in our parents, but we just hide our relationship in their church because he's still in training. I'm praying that God will speak to Him. I'm not sure how their elder will react if he finds out about our relationship.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I was concerned about my partner because he is currently in Full-Time Training and I am aware that he will be trained on Witness Lee's interpretation. We had already agreed not to discuss our contrasting church practices and beliefs in order to avoid any potential conflicts. We had already agreed that he would marry me in our church (Christian denomination) and not in their local church. We're both legal in our parents, but we just hide our relationship in their church because he's still in training. I'm praying that God will speak to Him. I'm not sure how their elder will react if he finds out about our relationship.

Seems to be a couple of “red flags” here. First, I think he may be violating strict FTTA rules by having a relationship with you talking about marriage when he is in the training. Does this indicate anything to you?

Second, agreeing not to talk about this topic of potential future conflicts is very worrisome to me. If nothing else, marriage is all about talking about difficult things. Does his apparent unwillingness to talk about this issue prior to marriage worry you? Would it be wise for you to take some time to review these things with a marriage counselor? Maybe talk to a pastor in your church? Praying for you, I can’t imagine how stressful this must be for you.

I figured it had something to do with the ftta. Click on the Elders and Leading Brothers' Recommendation Form pdf in the link below. It's right there. Rule number 7. Maybe the elders never asked him, or he lied. I just say be at peace and try not to stress. If it's actually enforceable it's ridiculous. As it's none of their business. Yes there are alot of personal questions on that form.

They were doing the training remotely but now have began in person again.

https://www.ftta.org/apply/index.php

[DP0902]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I figured it had something to do with the ftta. Click on the Elders and Leading Brothers' Recommendation Form pdf in the link below. It's right there. Rule number 7. Maybe the elders never asked him, or he lied. I just say be at peace and try not to stress. If it's actually enforceable it's ridiculous. As it's none of their business. Yes there are alot of personal questions on that form.

They were doing the training remotely but now have began in person again.

https://www.ftta.org/apply/index.php

Thank you for sharing that with me. Yes, their questions are invading someone's personal life. Do you have any idea what will happen to FTT students once they had graduated from their training?

He will either go full-time, get a job and start working, or go back to school and further his education for a more advanced degree. However, this will most likely be discussed, they use the word fellowship with the trainers or the leading church leaders where he is from.

On the matter of full time, the surrounding churches will provide financial support for him. To move, to a city to preach the gospel and get college student contacts to do weekly bible studies and eventually bring them into the church.

But do know marriage is off for at least two years from when he originally started the training.

Felt the sense to reply to your question, OP - I've been perusing the forums for a while and yours resonated because I've had experience with it.

To your latest question, what happens to FTT graduates varies. Some stay within the LR solidly and others fade out quietly. Some are on the peripheral and some wholeheartedly give themselves for the LR. Most live out their lives as before, but with additional knowledge of the Word, ministry, and practices to a degree.

I've graduated from the FTT and married a Christian brother who isn't fully for the LR. We've been married nearly a decade now, and it's a journey (just like it's a journey with God Himself). We were in a relationship prior to the training, and we agreed to put it on hold while I was in the training. It was ROUGH. To be honest, I slightly bent Rule 7 a little during the interims (breaks) by saying hi to him in public meetings. After I graduated, we met up again, caught up, and reaffirmed our feelings for each other. This is a very condensed version of my experience. As Unto Him said, if he really loves you, and really loves God, and you love God, trust in God.

My experience may not be very typical. I can only pray that for you and for him, that it works out for both of you. It's definitely important to see that Christ should be the foundation of your relationship, not the LR. My husband and I have made it thus far because of putting God first, and also just being real with each other thru the years.

And in response to your original question, usually yes, it's okay to marry outside the Recovery. The response may vary depending on many internal/external factors. Where I am at, I have seen marriages where both spouses are in the LR and marriages where one spouse isn't originally or isn't attached to the LR deeply. Recently have seen an engagement where the sister's fiance seems not attached to the LR. If the leading brothers are wise in Christ (one can only hope and pray so), the brothers shouldn't judge.

I myself am going thru my own personal journey on processing my relationship with the LR, with God, with myself, my friends and family in the LR, and in relation to other fellow believers. It's been a bit bumpy but one step at a time. Will be praying for you, OP!

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Thank you for sharing that with me. Yes, their questions are invading someone's personal life. Do you have any idea what will happen to FTT students once they had graduated from their training?

Hi. I went to the Full Time Training in Anaheim (FTTA) in the 1990s and have known people who have been before and since then. First of all, the "Consecration #7" issue (no boy/girl relationships) is serious enough that people discovered to have violated it have been removed from the training (and then invited to return to their church to pursue the relationship).

Secondly, after the FTTA, or actually towards the END of FTTA, the attention shifts strongly towards getting the trainees married. When I was there, and have heard this from others, too, we had several "4th term brother" and "4th term sister" meetings where the harsh restriction from having male-female relationships is lifted and the soon-to-be-graduated trainees are encouraged to pursue a spouse.

Unsurprisingly, the entire fellowship on finding a spouse is centered on finding someone of the same vision of God's Economy -- someone who can join to give their lives full-time to "Christ and the Church." The "trainees" are held in a high esteem (well, in SoCal, anyway) and the thought of "losing" a trainee to a non-Recovered spouse isn't pleasantly accepted as "God's Perfect Will."

I do know faithful members in the Local Churches who are married to someone met outside of the Lord's Recovery (and some who since marriage stopped meeting), but these are considered sub-par pairings -- as in, "oh, that's a shame." The couple isn't shunned, per se, but there's a definite "oh, we should do something to help our young people find a spouse in the church!" when such relationships happen. Also, I've been in prayer meetings where strong prayers were made for the non-meeting partner to be "gained" for God's Economy, and those prayers followed up with invitations to the couple to "come for dinner." I don't know if the effort to "gain" the non-meeting spouse ever subsides. It may, but it remains a sticky issue for a long time in the minds of everyone in the church around that couple -- especially if one spouse is intending to be a serving one.

More to the issue at heart, though, is a concern on how this "hiding the heart" is affecting your boyfriend in the FTT. Knowing that he's not respecting the sworn consecration and also can't openly be in such an important life-relationship might result in guilt, shame, and other painful feelings. One the one hand, hiding such a fact from the Training is hardly a great way to start one's "Service to the Lord," but on the other, feeling that he has to chose between the Lord and you...that's not a great way to start a life-relationship with someone. It's a shame that the pressure to conform to the "call" to attend the FTT is so strong one would be in such a situation to put God against love.

That may seem like a strong paragraph, but having been in the FTT, and having seen colleagues struggling with this very issue still lingers with me so many years later. One trainee had an emotional breakdown over his relationship with his fiancée, which he had to hide while he was in the training. I cannot imagine the stress this must have caused.

The official line from the FTT is along the lines of "we encourage health relationships and want to see brothers and sisters marry; however, just for the period of the two year FTT, we want trainees to be focused on the Lord and to set aside such plans until after the training. If one cannot put pursuing a spouse aside, we free them from the training so they can pursue such a relationship with a clear conscience." As if the incessant "Go to the training!" calls at every major LSM conference/training isn't putting enormous pressure on young people scared they won't measure up to be overcomers....

Hello, I am a former member and I remember watching a training/conference video at the meeting hall when I believe Ed Marks gave this example regarding marrying an outsider/non-LC member, he said "Stand on a chair. Now try to lift someone up. That's what it will be like if you marry someone who's not in the Church-life. It'll be easier for them to bring you down than for you to lift them up to the church-life." I'm paraphrasing but that's exactly what he meant. However, I have personally known LC members that were courting non LC members that were meeting and actually got baptized in the LC. They stopped meeting not too long after the wedding.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

Hi. I went to the Full Time Training in Anaheim (FTTA) in the 1990s and have known people who have been before and since then. First of all, the "Consecration #7" issue (no boy/girl relationships) is serious enough that people discovered to have violated it have been removed from the training (and then invited to return to their church to pursue the relationship).
…
As if the incessant "Go to the training!" calls at every major LSM conference/training isn't putting enormous pressure on young people scared they won't measure up to be overcomers....

Gr8ful,

I never really thought it was helpful to call the Local Church of Witness Lee a cult. But after reading this, what else…?

I can only think of two bits of advice.
RUN! Run away as fast as you can. Don’t look back.
PRAY! Pray for God to rescue anyone you love from this toxic place!

DP0902, I’m so sorry for the situation you and your friend face.

Nell

Originally Posted by DP0902

Is it possible for a brother in the Lord's Recovery to marry a Christian who is not a member of their group? Are they allowed to marry someone from a Christian denomination?

No. They use a verse in corinthians that says do not be yoked with unbelievers, and bad company corrupts good morals.

[Zezima]

Why don’t you meet with the LR?

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why don’t you meet with the LR?

To whom are you asking this question? I'll assume it's to me, since it's not clear .

I don't meet for a simple reason: I changed.

It wasn't until a few years after leaving I realized TLR (i.e., the LSM-lead Local Churches) were more than just a conservative Evangelical organization and had the definite marks of a sociological cult (doctrine aside, it's cultic in the way it functions as a society). And only recently have I realized that I wasn't "lead by the Lord" to meet with the LC as a college student, but rather was groomed and recruited by older adults specifically on the campus pursuing a method of recruiting vulnerable college freshmen to their group.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Is it possible for a brother in the Lord's Recovery to marry a Christian who is not a member of their group? Are they allowed to marry someone from a Christian denomination?

Why are you not a member?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

To whom are you asking this question? I'll assume it's to me, since it's not clear .

I don't meet for a simple reason: I changed.

It wasn't until a few years after leaving I realized TLR (i.e., the LSM-lead Local Churches) were more than just a conservative Evangelical organization and had the definite marks of a sociological cult (doctrine aside, it's cultic in the way it functions as a society). And only recently have I realized that I wasn't "lead by the Lord" to meet with the LC as a college student, but rather was groomed and recruited by older adults specifically on the campus pursuing a method of recruiting vulnerable college freshmen to their group.

Thanks for the reply but I meant the op.

There were a few unregistered on this post. I on response 6 and 9. Ron actually shared on marriage in message 11 I think. He said a wife be like Abigail who was a warrior wife. They say the church, but later on the overcomers will be the wife of Christ.

For your situation I mentioned that they want the men to take the lead. Ron said in marriage a brother should have decernment on whether to marry a sister. And, it depends on if the woman will come the way of Christ and the church. Basically into the Lord's recovery. And if not, he should drop her.

So basically, it's up to how serious he will take this. There could be a problem or none. Be at peace but it's up to how he will react. He could just possibly fine someone at the training. I'm just saying. I wouldn't put it past him. I know young people. Mainly after the training that got married quickly to other people in the church because they thought they were the certain age or getting to old and not married which others deem strange and weird.

[DP0902]

Thank you very much. The most crucial aspect of every relationship is that Christ is at the core of it all. I appreciate your response to my query. God bless you always.

[DP0902]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why are you not a member?

I'm not a member of their local church because I'm an active member in my church (one of the Christian Denomination Churches).
I came to this forum to know more deeply about the doctrines, practices, and beliefs of the LR. I recently stopped reading LSM books on a website because some of the topics they discussed were heretical.

[DP0902]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

No. They use a verse in corinthians that says do not be yoked with unbelievers, and bad company corrupts good morals.

Thank you for your reply.
Oh, I see. But there are also a lot of Christians from other denominations. There are Christians who have been saved from Christian denomination churches. I believe that God saved those Christians from other denominations as well, and that they want to follow Christ. If they believe that Christians from other denominations were unbelievers, it means they were condemning other Christians and Christ is not in them at all. I'm still in a scenario wherein I would like to know more about them if they were really a true Christians.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Thank you for your reply.
Oh, I see. But there are also a lot of Christians from other denominations. There are Christians who have been saved from Christian denomination churches. I believe that God saved those Christians from other denominations as well, and that they want to follow Christ. If they believe that Christians from other denominations were unbelievers, it means they were condemning other Christians and Christ is not in them at all. I'm still in a scenario wherein I would like to know more about them if they were really a true Christians.

You might consider asking them, whoever, to share their personal testimony of salvation. You might share yours first.

Just a thought,
Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by DP0902

Thank you for your reply.
Oh, I see. But there are also a lot of Christians from other denominations. There are Christians who have been saved from Christian denomination churches. I believe that God saved those Christians from other denominations as well, and that they want to follow Christ. If they believe that Christians from other denominations were unbelievers, it means they were condemning other Christians and Christ is not in them at all. I'm still in a scenario wherein I would like to know more about them if they were really a true Christians.

Hi DP0902,

I will just comment on this, since I came there from Christian background. For the most part, I would say 90%, will never admit publicly that the other Christians are unbelievers. They will also never admit that they don’t like Christians. But if you ever get a chance to pin them down in the discussion about it, they will tell you that anyone who is not meeting in the LC, is a carnal believer that does not know the true revaluation about the body, thus he is most likely headed to 1000 year purgatory to get perfected.

But hey, it’s not all lost, just eat the “truth” offered in LC, and you will be the elite godmen, the “overcomer”, just chilling with the Lord watching other people improve for 1000 yrs.

They have all Christian vocabulary, terminology, lingo, even took some songs to blend in better, but it’s all means absolutely different than in biblical Christianity. Read it for yourself, it’s all available online.

Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

…. For the most part, I would say 90%, will never admit publicly that the other Christians are unbelievers. …
Thanks

Paul, I don’t think you mean this. There is no such thing as a “Christian unbeliever.” Right? Someone is either a Christian, or an unbeliever.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul, I don’t think you mean this. There is no such thing as a “Christian unbeliever.” Right? Someone is either a Christian, or an unbeliever.

Nell

I think he’s saying that those in the LR view those outside of it as unbelievers. They don’t typically view Christians meeting outside of the LR as true believers. “Is he a brother?” Meaning does he meet with us? “Church life” referring to those in the LR rather than the “called out ones”. So while the OP maybe be a believer, as long as their SO meets in the LR he or she will feel that stigma attached to believers outside of the LSM walls.

In the LSM they have written text saying presbyterianism is christless, and that to be a top Christian you need to be in the Lords recovery. Remember everyone but them is wrong and degraded…

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul, I don’t think you mean this. There is no such thing as a “Christian unbeliever.” Right? Someone is either a Christian, or an unbeliever.

Nell

Nell,

That’s precisely what I’m saying, there is no such thing as Christian unbeliever, but there is such demeaning doctrine in LC, that unless you are a Christian that meets outside the ground of the TLR, you are most likely lost to the truth, and I have heard many times that it would be said “I can’t say whether or not one is a born again believer, since they oppose the “truth” of LSM”.

As far as I’m concerned, there are true born again believers in many denominations, and nondenominational churches. I can’t, and will not ever comply with devilish doctrines that TLR pedals as the truth. They are the most devicive, self-righteous system, along with JWs and Mormons. (I don’t consider JWs and Mormons to be Christians, just for clarifications). I also do not subscribe to the two tier Christians doctrine, also promoted by them (overcomer scam). It’s the most extrapolated and stretch out nonsense of self righteousness one could come up with. So, hopefully that answers your question.

Thanks.

[Paul Vusik]

I wanted to add something to the previous post,

As some of you know, I was there for almost 12yrs. I have sat through many meetings on Sunday, while listening people get up during the so called “prophesying “ portion, and blast all Christians who are outside of LC, who know nothing about the truths, and say how blessed they are to have this “church”. There were times when I had to get up and go outside to get some fresh air after those statements, since my blood was boiling inside with total disagreement.

My great grandfather was a Christian who was sent to Siberia, imprisoned for 25 years during the Stalin rule of USSR, my grandparents and parents could not do anything in society because they actually stood for something, and believed and trusted God rather than man. When I went to school as a child in the 80s, we were taken out in front of the whole school and made fun of because we refused to comply with communists beliefs. And then you have these frauds that can’t even handle a normal human level conversation because they “Oh so offended”, and it’s better to just not say anything or stand out in the society that needs some light and salt, pour vile, discarding statements about their faith, and knowledge of the truth. I wish sometime I could be like Paul, and say some things to them like he did in couple of his letters, but “I will let Him who judges rightchesly, and knows the heart of man do that”

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I wanted to add something to the previous post,

As some of you know, I was there for almost 12yrs. I have sat through many meetings on Sunday, while listening people get up during the so called “prophesying “ portion, and blast all Christians who are outside of LC, who know nothing about the truths, and say how blessed they are to have this “church”. There were times when I had to get up and go outside to get some fresh air after those statements, since my blood was boiling inside with total disagreement.

My great grandfather was a Christian who was sent to Siberia, imprisoned for 25 years during the Stalin rule of USSR, my grandparents and parents could not do anything in society because they actually stood for something, and believed and trusted God rather than man. When I went to school as a child in the 80s, we were taken out in front of the whole school and made fun of because we refused to comply with communists beliefs. And then you have these frauds that can’t even handle a normal human level conversation because they “Oh so offended”, and it’s better to just not say anything or stand out in the society that needs some light and salt, pour vile, discarding statements about their faith, and knowledge of the truth. I wish sometime I could be like Paul, and say some things to them like he did in couple of his letters, but “I will let Him who judges rightchesly, and knows the heart of man do that”

Wow! Thanks Paul for your stand for Christ as a young man during the Soviet days! I think it must grieve the Lord when young LC people speak publicly that anyone not in the LC is outside of God’s will and not approved by Him, when there are saints like your grandparents and parents who suffered for Christ under communism.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by HERn

Wow! Thanks Paul for your stand for Christ as a young man during the Soviet days! I think it must grieve the Lord when young LC people speak publicly that anyone not in the LC is outside of God’s will and not approved by Him, when there are saints like your grandparents and parents who suffered for Christ under communism.

Hi HERn,

I guess I should have made a point more clearer regarding what I said. I don’t consider anything that nether my grandparents or great grandparents went through to be suffering per say, (I’m very certain that they all would say it was a privilege). And that’s what happens when you already know the truths, WHICH WAS NEVER LOST TO BEGIN WITH, NEVER NEEDED TO BE RECOVERED, and stand for it as a true believer. That knowledge of the truth, and unwavering belief, will bring those things into your life even in America today.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,

That’s precisely what I’m saying, there is no such thing as Christian unbeliever, but there is such demeaning doctrine in LC, that unless you are a Christian that meets outside the ground of the TLR, you are most likely lost to the truth, and I have heard many times that it would be said “I can’t say whether or not one is a born again believer, since they oppose the “truth” of LSM”.

As far as I’m concerned, there are true born again believers in many denominations, and nondenominational churches. I can’t, and will not ever comply with devilish doctrines that TLR pedals as the truth. They are the most devicive, self-righteous system, along with JWs and Mormons. (I don’t consider JWs and Mormons to be Christians, just for clarifications). I also do not subscribe to the two tier Christians doctrine, also promoted by them (overcomer scam). It’s the most extrapolated and stretch out nonsense of self righteousness one could come up with. So, hopefully that answers your question.

Thanks.

Thank you for your clear testimony, Paul.

Nell