The Local Church and the Internet

[Freedom]

Something that I have been thinking about recently is whether or not the LC will ever have to confront and come to terms with all the things on the internet that they consider to be “negative”. Before the internet came about, hiding information was easy. Now everyone has access to the same information. It's all there, black and white.

The reason that I began to realize that there are things severely wrong with the LC is because of the information that the internet gave me access to. Without the internet, I would have been likely to accept anything that they told me as fact, because there would be no reason to question what I was told.


I am actually quite impressed that they've been successful thus far in keeping most of those in the LC from reading things on the internet. In this day and age, few people will accept something they are told as fact. I think that most people will “google” something or make an attempt to verify information online. I'm sure most in the LC would do the same for any information except that pertaining to the LC.


I can understand that the older generation would not feel the need as much to verify information online, however, with the younger generation, that is how we all grew up. The LC definitely has the ability to keep those on the inside from obtaining certain information, however, they can't do anything about those on the outside. I wonder when people come in contact with the LC, do they ever go online to see what the group is about? Do people ever look up what the Recovery Version is when the are given a copy?


I know that one of the LC's main strategies in regards to the internet has been to “flood” it with websites that have every possible URL that might be related to the LC. As someone in the LC, I think that it would be highly suspect if I was researching the LC and came across only pro-LC websites. I for one am not satisfied with reading a single point of view.


Those who are in the LC, even those who are part of the younger generation, don't seem to have any desire to know what the LC is about. They are content with what is presented to them. I don't think that all of the younger generation in the LC even realize that they are not supposed to read things about the LC on the internet. It seems like the LC's current strategy in regards to the internet is built upon the understanding that they have made certain information inaccessible enough, and they are also assuming that people aren't reading “negative” things. I wondered how long they can honestly expect their strategy to work? I know that people in the LC are reading things on the internet as is evidenced by people like me who have registered on this forum recently. I think there's at least a few of us who are still in the LC. Are people like me who have seen past their propaganda just an anomaly, or is their strategy slowly failing?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Without the internet, I would have been likely to accept anything that they told me as fact, because there would be no reason to question what I was told.

Until a certain LSM publication came out around 1990, I did not question what I was told. I may not have agreed with what I was told, but I didn't question it.

[Freedom]

I don't think that the LC is aware about how fine the line is that they're walking on. People on the outside do read what's on the internet. I saw several instances while I was in college where we had people start coming to our Bible study and after some time they did some "research" about the recovery version or WL/LSM and that was the last that we saw of them.

For those on the inside, it is quite discouraging to go through all the trouble of inviting someone to a bible study only to find that they leave in a matter of a few weeks. What makes it worse is that those taking the lead in the LCs, never tell anyone what is said on the internet besides saying that it's "negative". The blame is always placed on the rank and file members for losing people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

For those on the inside, it is quite discouraging to go through all the trouble of inviting someone to a bible study only to find that they leave in a matter of a few weeks. What makes it worse is that those taking the lead in the LCs, never tell anyone what is said on the internet besides saying that it's "negative". The blame is always placed on the rank and file members for losing people.

It's more than just the internet why people are lost. Several I know just didn't "have the vision" of the ministry. Local churches have become more of ministry churches than being local churches. Not all Christians share the vision which LSM publishes.

[Truth]

The Sound of Silence:
http://vimeo.com/14192175

The entire RC/LSM organization reminds me of this in China. I am sure there are many more similar organizations out there, such as the Mormons. No matter how big the internet becomes, the leadership will remain silent on certain subjects.

(Actually the Mormons are better than LSM in some way, at least the leadership has publicly confessed to some wrong doings of the past)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

The Sound of Silence:
http://vimeo.com/14192175

The entire RC/LSM organization reminds me of this in China. I am sure there are many more similar organizations out there, such as the Mormons. No matter how big the internet becomes, the leadership will remain silent on certain subjects.

In regard to LC history since 1962, I believe the younger generations that will become future leaders either don't know or don't care and the current leadership had too much a role in the past, for it to come into the light, these leaders would suffer loss to their reputations. Because of that, to bring up the past is a taboo subject.

This is the precisely the problem with the church in Kampala. They aim for the good building material on the campuses, hook and reel a few unsuspecting believers in....but lo, and behold, within a few months, they have vanished!...The problem was analysed by the eldership, and it was discovered that the root cause of the disappearances was the "evil internet'...ha!..(The church in Kampala has been in existence now for 11 years....and how many regular, dear saints meet?...15..)

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is the precisely the problem with the church in Kampala. They aim for the good building material on the campuses, hook and reel a few unsuspecting believers in....but lo, and behold, within a few months, they have vanished!...The problem was analysed by the eldership, and it was discovered that the root cause of the disappearances was the "evil internet'...ha!..(The church in Kampala has been in existence now for 11 years....and how many regular, dear saints meet?...15..)

Anything negative about them is "evil" or "from God's enemy". Yet Witness Lee could say so many things about so many other groups, for example:

• "Do not think that the Lord is in the circle of Protestantism. He is outside the door. Judaism is Satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is without Christ. They teach Christ's name, but He is not there. Do you really believe that today the living Lord Jesus is in the Protestant churches? Whether you believe it or not, the Lord says that He is outside the door."1

• “The great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!”2

• “The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished.”3

• “Christianity today is stranded on the sands of superstition, superficiality, and lukewarm theology.”4

1Witness Lee, The Stream Magazine, vol. 14, no. 4 (LSM, Nov 1976) p. 12 (emphasis added)

2Witness Lee, The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches (LSM, 1989), p. 97

3Witness Lee in The New Testament Recovery Version, Matthew 16:18, footnote 4 (LSM, 1991), p. 99

4Witness Lee, The Triune God’s Revelation and His Move, pp. 97-99 (messages given by Witness Lee in Anaheim, CA, Aug 23 to Dec 13, 1995)

[rayliotta]

(P.S. Can anyone tell me how to do superscripted text on the forum?)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is the precisely the problem with the church in Kampala. They aim for the good building material on the campuses, hook and reel a few unsuspecting believers in....but lo, and behold, within a few months, they have vanished!...The problem was analysed by the eldership, and it was discovered that the root cause of the disappearances was the "evil internet'...ha!..(The church in Kampala has been in existence now for 11 years....and how many regular, dear saints meet?...15..)

To me the church in Kampala has two problems. First we follow the leadership structure that we are given. Very rigid. Nobody is allowed to do anything without "fellowship". So the ability of the Spirit to do anything spontaneously is almost nil.

Contrast that to Jesus' organizational style. Yes, he had people sit down in groups of fifty, and had "distributors" for each group. Faithful ones who would pass on, correctly, what they were given. (Luke 9:14,15) But then, at the end of the meal, He dismissed them! He fired all the "serving ones"! (See e.g. Matt 14:23). He didn't set up a formal organizational structure to take care of feeding 5,000 people. He organized a "flash mob", then dismissed it.

We, however, easily become very rigid, and want to know a "chain of command", who is behind who, and who tells others what to do. In fact, we forget all about God, Jesus, and especially the Holy Spirit! Instead we focus on "being one" with Headquarters, and building our organization, using terms like "preparing the Bride" and "spreading the gospel". But it is clear what we are doing, and that is building our own kingdom and trying to lure people in, so we can control them and make them like we are.

The second problem is a lack of transparency. Instead of admitting this, that we have our hands all over the Lord's work, we instead try this combination of "omerta", a code of silence, combined with empty platitudes like what I described above. We use a few phrases like "God's present move on the earth today" or something. But nobody really wants to talk about what is going on. Nobody wants to point out the elephant in the room. Here, they shoot the messengers who bring bad news. So we pretend.

But all anyone has to do is look on the internet and see that it isn't so. There is now the religious version of "Angies List" or "Yelp" where people who have been through the system can tell what really goes on, and review their experiences. So the controlling, rigid hierarchy, and the secrecy, and lack of openness, get exposed for what they are. Then all you have left are a few people who say, "I am proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand!" And that's about it.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is the precisely the problem with the church in Kampala.

What church in Kampala? The one started/grown by John Ingalls and Co. or the one started later/earlier by the LSM? I remember reading a letter by James Lee in which he expressed his surprise when he was informed of the "other" Church in Kampala and in which he undertook to "rectify" the situation. They would never succumb to anyone so I took his undertaking with a pinch of salt.

The same happened in Accra, Ghana. When Ransford Ackah and those with him decided to sever ties with Witness Lee (a la Germany) but continued meeting as the Church in Accra, the LSM initiated a breakaway "Church in Accra" which led to much confusion. Some members of one family would meet with the Church in Accra while the rest of the family met with the Church in Accra.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

(P.S. Can anyone tell me how to do superscripted text on the forum?)

Try the Windows Character Map. > Start > All Programs > Accessories > System Tools > Character Map.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Friedel

What church in Kampala? The one started/grown by John Ingalls and Co. or the one started later/earlier by the LSM?

This goes back to the point of the thread: when LSM had the only printing press in town, they could "massage the message", and control the story. What they liked was promoted, and what they wanted to disappear, simply didn't exist in the saints' consciousnesses. Now it is not so simple for them, and the history of the church in Kampala is not as simple as they wish it were. "We are all made one", when sung in the assembly, now means "We do exactly what Headquarters tells us", because there are other, contrasting voices helping to shape the meaning. The LSM no longer has a monopoly on the discussion.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

But all anyone has to do is look on the internet and see that it isn't so. There is now the religious version of "Angies List" or "Yelp" where people who have been through the system can tell what really goes on, and review their experiences.... all you have left are a few people who say, "I am proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand!"

Here are 2 replies to In the Wake of the New Way, from a brother SI in the Local Churches, prompted by Lee's remarks. It shows the "ostrich in the sand" mentality, necessary to survive in this environment. (the internet is probably not conducive to this).

Dear brother, Sorry for the delayed reply to your numerous emails. Thank you for your concern over the Africa situation. It was altogether a surprise to get those emails by RA because there was not even one thought in us about dealing with him or his group when we planned the International blending conference. We just went on in spite of how he reacted to our blending conference. Thank the Lord that it was really a blessed time for the saints there in Africa to have this time of blending with so many from outside of the continent. They are part of the universal Body of Christ.

Anyhow, regarding the books that you have written and being requested by others, I did have some fellowship with brother DT, we feel that it would be good for you to hold off releasing that to the public. As you indicated in your email to seek fellowship, we would be open to receive a copy of your books for review and give you our comments.

From our experience, we realize that many times presenting the "right facts" of the situation does not necessarily help the people, but instead may get them into the realm of right and wrong, and as you know, there is no real solution in that realm. The Lord is the One who knows the heart. Only when one's heart is right and pure can he see God in all the situations and be benefited by any environment. So, I hope that you would consider the fellowship here and wait on the Lord a little longer and allow time for more fellowship in the Body. If you would send the books to me, my address is: ____________

Grace be with you,

Your brother in Christ,
---------

Brother, After reading your emails and the attached documents, I just have the following points to fellowship with you:

1) Taken that you have the right intention to "straighten out" the problems in the Lord's recovery, I felt that the way you are taking is not the proper way, but instead will generate more problems. I say this because of two reasons:

a. This is not the way shown to us in the scriptures. Just to get things "right" is never the way the Lord has led us. There were many things the Corinthians had wronged Paul, but Paul never took the attitude to "straighten them out" by helping them to get the facts straight and so on. In stead he preached the crucified Christ to them. There has to be the experience of the cross, the crucified Christ, in order to have the Body life. There are portions in the Word which show us that God does not care just to be "right" or "fair" or "just." Although He is a righteous God, He carries out His righteousness in the realm of life. Was Noah getting drunk and becoming naked right or wrong? Humanly speaking, we all agree that it was a mistake. However, God did not try to straighten out Noah; instead, God allowed and used Noah to curse his son Ham who saw his father's nakedness and told his brothers about it. It seems that Ham was doing the right thing to try to let his brothers know so that they can help their father out. But Ham violated the principle of life which God honors and desires so much. Noah did not get the curse, but Ham did. This is just one portion of the word which reveals this aspect of our touching God's matters. I hope that this may help to open up a new realm to you.

b. This has never been the way practiced by us in the Lord's recovery as long as I have been here (for the last 36 years). There has been rebellion and turmoils in the recovery both in the east and the west in the past years, but there has never been one case where "getting things straight" resolved anything, but instead, if it ever took place, brought in more confusion and complications. ... I hope that you would realize that the problems that occurred in the recovery are not ordinary problems as in the world. Beside the factual side of things, that is, the mishandling and misrepresentation, etc., there are something called hidden ambition and pride involved which are extremely complicated and subjective. If there is one little bit of impurity in the motive, you are through, regardless of how righteous and correct you are in handling the matters. I really hope that you will not be misguided by your superficial view that things can be resolved by just getting the facts out and face up to them. I don't even know what you called it "the facts" are really the genuine facts. Only the Lord knows. I hope that you will not presume that you know the real facts. You should have a fear for that, especially knowing that human beings are so complicated from the fall which has involved them with ambition, pride, the flesh, and the self. These are ugly things and they are hidden and subtle. Only the cross of Christ can deal with them.

2) The second point is that since you mentioned that you are now under disciplined by the brothers in your area, I consider that as a very serious matter which you need to take to heart to be before the Lord to seek His mercy for repentance and restoration. I don't know who you are and I don't know anything about you, but the brothers in your area do. I just feel that you should take the Lord's soverignty in this arrangement to be reconciled to Him and to the brothers in your church life there. Otherwise, if your own standing is questionable, how can you try to help others to get out of their problems?

This is all that I want to say. I hope that my frank words would not offend you. If you think that I am wrong, then just let it be that I am wrong. Even Paul said that he dared not judge anything, even himself, before the time comes. So in the mean time, let us be in fear and trembling before Him that we may not do or say anything that would hinder His building work on earth.

This is my final email to you. I do not feel that I have the capacity and the time to address to those matters which you are concerned about. May the Lord be gracious to you.

In Christ,
----------------

There is not even the slightest attempt to get at the rudiments of righteousness, here called "getting it right". Instead there's a fixation on "the proper way", which is whatever Big Brother, evidently whose "heart is right and pure", is speaking this week. As I said, the need is to protect the organization at all costs. The truth is whatever you need it to be this week.

If you live in the informational equivalent of North Korea you might get away with this strategy for quite some time. But in the open marketplace of ideas I don't think it has viability. The internet is the equivalent of the printing press: no longer can you keep information away from the people.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

There is not even the slightest attempt to get at the rudiments of righteousness, here called "getting it right". Instead there's a fixation on "the proper way", which is whatever Big Brother, evidently whose "heart is right and pure", is speaking this week. As I said, the need is to protect the organization at all costs. The truth is whatever you need it to be this week.

If you live in the informational equivalent of North Korea you might get away with this strategy for quite some time. But in the open marketplace of ideas I don't think it has viability. The internet is the equivalent of the printing press: no longer can you keep information away from the people.

It just surprises me that they've managed to go on this long without having to really address things on the internet. I wonder how many there are like me who are in the LC and actually read things on the internet.

I guess the approach works on diehard LC people, but they can't do anything about what outsiders read about them. I just wonder how long they can go on living in the bubble they are in.

After reading those letters to Steve, I really got to say that the whole teaching on "right and wrong" has become severely distorted. There is always right and wrong and right and wrong is decided by those at the top under the guise of being the "tree of life".

In the LC that I am in, there is a leading brother who has been known to be excessively legalistic. I have seen it cause some of those under him to become discouraged due to his legalism. According to the LC and WL's teaching, the correct approach to a situation like that would probably be to not question anything he says/does, in other words not attempt to determine whether the situation is right or wrong.

If someone were to take that route of not questioning the situation, they could easily end up in a state of discouragement and feeling like a failure, even though they followed the proper LC "way" to a T. That is where this teaching falls apart.

It's really about keeping people from questioning anything that goes on. I hear this kind of thought expressed in meetings all the time. I have learned that there is really no way to contradict anything anyone says. That is where this forum comes in.

Here I am free to speak my mind and sometimes I just need to vent. No one in the LC can stop me from posting here, they can only control what happens in their meetings.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's really about keeping people from questioning anything that goes on. I hear this kind of thought expressed in meetings all the time. I have learned that there is really no way to contradict anything anyone says. That is where this forum comes in.

Here I am free to speak my mind and sometimes I just need to vent. No one in the LC can stop me from posting here, they can only control what happens in their meetings.

Thank you Feedom! Keep posting!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It just surprises me that they've managed to go on this long without having to really address things on the internet. I wonder how many there are like me who are in the LC and actually read things on the internet.

When the internet first emerged, there were a few sites I would visit, but they were by outsiders, like Jim Moran, who knew little of our serious issues. Thus they would discuss obscure issues like "modalism," which was mostly irrelevant to the typical LC-er. It was not until user forums emerged, that the writings of ex-members was made public.

Members in the LC-ers could now read online, in the safety of their own homes, the accounts of well-respected leaders who had been black-balled and quarantined. Testimonial accounts, here a little and there a little, began piling up, and Anaheim lost control of the flow of information. This forum and others operated like "Radio Free Europe" did during the cold war.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem was analysed by the eldership, and it was discovered that the root cause of the disappearances was the "evil internet'...ha!..

Whether it's the Church in Kampala or any other locality, the result is the same. No accountability by the eldership. Easy to place blame on a faceless entity as the internet.
From my observation, my analysis is if you're a young person who doesn't have a goal to attend FTTA, you will not get the same level and care from the elders as one who does have a goal to attend FTTA. If you don't receive care, you will likely leave for another place to meet.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

After reading those letters to Steve, I really got to say that the whole teaching on "right and wrong" has become severely distorted. There is always right and wrong and right and wrong is decided by those at the top under the guise of being the "tree of life".

True. The concept of "right and wrong" is indeed severely distorted. Consider this:

To be politically correct is considered "under the tree of Life".
To be politically incorrect is considered "under the Tree of Knowledge".

So:
1. to address unrighteousness in the Recovery is to be politically incorrect and thus under the Tree of Knowledge.
2. to propose a corporate repentance is to be politically incorrect and thus under the Tree of Knowledge.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

True. The concept of "right and wrong" is indeed severely distorted. Consider this:

To be politically correct is considered "under the tree of Life".
To be politically incorrect is considered "under the Tree of Knowledge".

So:
1. to address unrighteousness in the Recovery is to be politically incorrect and thus under the Tree of Knowledge.
2. to propose a corporate repentance is to be politically incorrect and thus under the Tree of Knowledge.

A long time ago, the teaching of the two trees seemed to made sense and I really bought into it. Once I realized how it is used, that is, to surpress opinions and criticism, I had to come to terms with the fact that I can no longer allow myself to be manipulated by it.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

From my observation, my analysis is if you're a young person who doesn't have a goal to attend FTTA, you will not get the same level and care from the elders as one who does have a goal to attend FTTA. If you don't receive care, you will likely leave for another place to meet.

Those of us "church kids" who did not go to the FTT, but who remain in the Recovery, have grown few and far between. Many, like myself, have left. Many, like myself, do not, actually, find another place to meet. Many of us try our best to learn how to live life outside of the insulated social environment and unhealthy religious environment in which we were raised. (Unfortunately, there is such a thing as bad religion, and sometimes, it can be very bad. )

I've known others who were very reluctant to go to the FTT, but eventually gave into pressure and went, even if they'd already spent years as working adults after college.

The goal of the recruitment at UCLA, Harvard, and dozens of universities in between, is the FTT. The goal of "the pipeline" for church kids is the FTT. Even many long-time, middle-aged, Recovery members are actively encouraged to take leaves of absence from their job to go to the middle-age training. What happened to "the local ground"?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

A long time ago, the teaching of the two trees seemed to made sense and I really bought into it. Once I realized how it is used, that is, to surpress opinions and criticism, I had to come to terms with the fact that I can no longer allow myself to be manipulated by it.

Orthodoxy is the two trees. Heteropraxy is "When I do it, it is the pure revelation of Christ and is life, but when you do it, it is just fallen opinion and should be condemned".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

A long time ago, the teaching of the two trees seemed to made sense and I really bought into it. Once I realized how it is used, that is, to suppress opinions and criticism, I had to come to terms with the fact that I can no longer allow myself to be manipulated by it.

Very well said Freedom.

In and of itself the teaching does have merit, but once it is used to silence the voices of those who would expose unrighteousness, then the teaching becomes nothing more than a weapon to manipulate the faithful and hold them in fear, all the while they think they are "taking in life."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

What happened to "the local ground"?

After giving my best 30 years to that program, I f-i-n-a-l-l-y concluded it was nothing more than a ruse.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

True. The concept of "right and wrong" is indeed severely distorted. Consider this:

To be politically correct is considered "under the tree of Life".
To be politically incorrect is considered "under the Tree of Knowledge".

So:
1. to address unrighteousness in the Recovery is to be politically incorrect and thus under the Tree of Knowledge.
2. to propose a corporate repentance is to be politically incorrect and thus under the Tree of Knowledge.

I note that a couple of others have commented, directly or indirectly, on this post. All of them good. Here' my two cents on the "tree" controversy.

The whole "what tree are you in?" questioning is a function of controlling. But just as insidious as the control that was used, my observations of late have lead me to believe that the underlying issue is that the importance of the "knowledge of good and evil" seems missed in LSM/LRC teaching. The issue is not that it is wrong to distinguish right from wrong, good from evil. Rather it is where we obtain our knowledge for the purpose of distinguishing. Until we "stretched forth" our hands and took the responsibility upon ourselves, our knowledge came from God. But we had knowledge. And even today, we will always have knowledge of good and evil. And we must distinguish between them. The question is where does our knowledge come from. If it is from ourselves, then we are worthy of being called "in the wrong tree." But if it is from God, then we are not.

As has been pointed out, the problem with the LRC teaching of "being in the wrong tree" is not that they want us to be righteous from the correct source. It is that they don't want us to think about it. They want us to reject any thought that we have that anything is actually evil or unrighteous. To "not care for right or wrong — only life."

And this is another place where that insidious "dispensing" theology comes into play. We are supposed to just not worry about it until we have enough dispensing to simply be righteous.

So despite the rhetoric that the Sermon on the Mount is the "Kingdom's Constitution," one of the earliest articles of that constitution is made null and void by the "wrong tree" teaching. We were never to hunger and thirst for righteousness. Instead we were to hunger and thirst for dispensing and for "life."

And putting Lee's version of "life" in "scare quotes" is very appropriate when you realize that the so-called life that you are seeking is replacing the actual command of Christ. We only care for life — not righteousness. The life will eventually cure our unrighteousness. In the meantime, don't worry about it. And don't worry about it in others. Unless we leading ones excommunicate someone, their unrighteousness is simply OK because they just don't have enough life and light yet. And if you tell them to straighten up, you will be putting "premature light" on them.

That kind of life is not God's life. It is the life of the minions who blindly follow their leader whether right or wrong, because even when he's wrong, he's right.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

The question is where does our knowledge come from. If it is from ourselves, then we are worthy of being called "in the wrong tree." But if it is from God, then we are not..

Agreed. And it goes to my idea of Lee not seeing how much self was in his sight, as he peered into scripture, and directed the saints: culture, both religious and social, personal (mis)understandings and limitations, and especially, personal intention.

Where did Daystar come from? From God, or from ourselves? How much of "the wrong tree" was there in the Local Churches, even while we were hypersensitive to, and castigated everyone else

Of course that includes me. How many of my posts are sniping at my favorite target(s), and have little or nothing to do with God? It is so easy to see "the wrong tree" in others, and miss what is growing within, and being manifested. Whose will is being manifested: mine or God's?

Originally Posted by aron

Here are 2 replies to In the Wake of the New Way, from a brother SI in the Local Churches, prompted by Lee's remarks. It shows the "ostrich in the sand" mentality, necessary to survive in this environment. (the internet is probably not conducive to this).

There is not even the slightest attempt to get at the rudiments of righteousness, here called "getting it right". Instead there's a fixation on "the proper way", which is whatever Big Brother, evidently whose "heart is right and pure", is speaking this week. As I said, the need is to protect the organization at all costs. The truth is whatever you need it to be this week.

If you live in the informational equivalent of North Korea you might get away with this strategy for quite some time. But in the open marketplace of ideas I don't think it has viability. The internet is the equivalent of the printing press: no longer can you keep information away from the people.

...whatever happened to...

"Them that sin rebuke BEFORE ALL, that others also may fear" (1 Tim 5:20)

"And if he shall neglect to hear them, TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican" (Matt: 18:17)

...and that last quote comes straight from the mouth of the LORD himself! Who are these people in the LC who think that they are wiser than the apostle Paul, or indeed, the Lord Jesus? All the 'advice and wise counsel' above is just POLITICS!...it's what one would expect to hear in the Oval office or Cabinet-meeting or a school staff-room.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I've known others who were very reluctant to go to the FTT, but eventually gave into pressure and went, even if they'd already spent years as working adults after college.

I was reluctant to go and still choose not to go.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem was analysed by the eldership, and it was discovered that the root cause of the disappearances was the "evil internet'...ha!..

As much as I heard with my ears in meetings, read in announcments, and my own participation about "the internet", I have concluded the internet forums are to the Blended brothers what Fox News is to Obama's administration.

"Don't listen to them, they're negative." Sorry to say, telling it like it is can negative or it can be positive.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

What happened to "the local ground"?

If one truly believes the doctrine of local ground, it's been replaced by a center other than Christ.
I believe the doctrine of locality is something Nee and Lee brought with them from their time with Exclusive Brethren.
From Herald Hsu's testimony, when T.A. Sparks visited Taiwan, he offended Lee because Sparks did not endorse the local ground doctrine, but felt it was over-emphasized.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Those of us "church kids" who did not go to the FTT, but who remain in the Recovery, have grown few and far between. Many, like myself, have left. Many, like myself, do not, actually, find another place to meet. Many of us try our best to learn how to live life outside of the insulated social environment and unhealthy religious environment in which we were raised. (Unfortunately, there is such a thing as bad religion, and sometimes, it can be very bad. )

I've known others who were very reluctant to go to the FTT, but eventually gave into pressure and went, even if they'd already spent years as working adults after college.

The goal of the recruitment at UCLA, Harvard, and dozens of universities in between, is the FTT. The goal of "the pipeline" for church kids is the FTT. Even many long-time, middle-aged, Recovery members are actively encouraged to take leaves of absence from their job to go to the middle-age training. What happened to "the local ground"?

I remember reading somewhere and someone saying that one of the first signs of the degradation of the church is the establishment of a special class of disciples who have attended very specialized training. The completion of such training is taken as a mark of advanced spirituality. This development took place in the Catholic church and so too in the Protestant churches. To all intents and purposes this is also developing right beneath our noses in the LC. Like it or not, the FTT is already a seminary of sorts, a religious institute if you will, or soon shall be. What is sad is that those in the LC system may not see it in this way (the Blendeds, too, may not see it in this way either)...but, c'mon now, if it talks like a duck...quack, quack, quack!...

p.s. the fact that there is a supposedly specially-blessed group of brothers who are called, or who call themselves, the 'Blended Brothers' is a matter of grave concern, and a sign of the start of something that most assuredly does not smack of 'God's Economy'

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I have concluded the internet forums are to the Blended brothers what Fox News is to Obama's administration.

Hey Terry, great correlation!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember reading somewhere and someone saying that one of the first signs of the degradation of the church is the establishment of a special class of disciples who have attended very specialized training. The completion of such training is taken as a mark of advanced spirituality. This development took place in the Catholic church and so too in the Protestant churches. To all intents and purposes this is also developing right beneath our noses in the LC. Like it or not, the FTT is already a seminary of sorts, a religious institute if you will, or soon shall be. What is sad is that those in the LC system may not see it in this way (the Blendeds, too, may not see it in this way either)...but, c'mon now, if it talks like a duck...quack, quack, quack!...

p.s. the fact that there is a supposedly specially-blessed group of brothers who are called, or who call themselves, the 'Blended Brothers' is a matter of grave concern, and a sign of the start of something that most assuredly does not smack of 'God's Economy'

Have you read "Speaking the Truth in Love" by John Ingalls? He says the following about the FTT and it may be what you were thinking of:

We had seen that in church history, whenever the Lord had raised up groups of His people for His testimony, they had persistently degraded into denominations; and the first two signs of this degradation were unfailingly: 1) the affiliating of the groups under a central leadership; 2) the establishing of a central training center, where their full-time workers could be educated and equipped to serve in their sphere of fellowship. When these two steps had eventualized, they were well on their way to becoming just another denomination, however advanced in the knowledge of truth they were. It was more than obvious that we in the local churches had taken those identical steps and were going down the same road. Should we remain silent?

[Freedom]

For the record, I should say that I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with a seminary or having a degree from one. They serve a purpose. In any church outside the LC, I think a pastor would be the only one expected to hold a seminary degree.

The problem that I have with the FTT is that it is has created a class of people in the LC who are looked upon as better than everyone else. It almost feels like those who haven't attended the FTT aren't completely "trusted". Virtually any college student who has just graduated and is fairly involved with the LC will be pushed in some way to attend the training.

It strikes me as being highly peculiar that there is such a strong expectation for so many to attend the FTT. It is not normal, nor should it be necessary. My argument is that if it really takes 2 years of formal training for someone to be a good LC member, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

Also, to the Unregistered poster, you should register and tell us about yourself. I'm curious to hear about your background with the LC in order to understand where you are coming from.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The problem that I have with the FTT is that it is has created a class of people in the LC who are looked upon as better than everyone else. It almost feels like those who haven't attended the FTT aren't completely "trusted".

I wouldn't say those who don't attend FTTA cannot be trusted, but I have seen behavior over the FTTA creates a class system. Brothers and sisters who have, are, or planning to attend the full time training there is an "attitude of favoritism" over those who have not attended or have no inclination to. Whether or not it was intended or not, the disparity of care results in making "distinctions" among yourselves.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After giving my best 30 years to that program, I f-i-n-a-l-l-y concluded it was nothing more than a ruse.

I guess the bloom is off the ruse, eh?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember reading somewhere and someone saying that one of the first signs of the degradation of the church is the establishment of a special class of disciples who have attended very specialized training. The completion of such training is taken as a mark of advanced spirituality. This development took place in the Catholic church and so too in the Protestant churches. To all intents and purposes this is also developing right beneath our noses in the LC. Like it or not, the FTT is already a seminary of sorts, a religious institute if you will, or soon shall be. What is sad is that those in the LC system may not see it in this way (the Blendeds, too, may not see it in this way either)...but, c'mon now, if it talks like a duck...quack, quack, quack!...

Based on my own observation in a few different localities, new elders are almost always full-time training graduates. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that at this point in time, it would be regarded as a strange thing for someone to become an elder in the Lord's Recovery, who has not already attended the full-time training.

So, would someone who attends meetings in a local church, affiliated with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, please tell me: How is the FTT not a seminary? I would like to know. Thanks in advance.

[rayliotta]

P.S. I also hope that Mr or Ms Unregistered will choose to create a username and join the discussions. Please don't feel obligated (in fact, I myself "lurked" -- just reading up on the discussions -- for close to three months before I ever posted anything). But do consider joining our discussions, as much or as little as you choose.

Originally Posted by Freedom

For the record, I should say that I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with a seminary or having a degree from one. They serve a purpose. In any church outside the LC, I think a pastor would be the only one expected to hold a seminary degree.

From what I recall being told during my time in the LC system; the FTT was a means for one to "accelerate" one's growth in life, that is, what ordinarily would take many years, maybe even a lifetime, now could, through a carefully compiled program, take only several months to achieve. Admittedly, a noble goal and a noble enterprise based on a noble premise, that is, of course, humanly speaking. The major flaw with this is that it presumes, consciously or not, that God either does not know what He is doing, or if He does know, then He certainly needs a helping hand from us. How is this, then, not the Tower of Babel (spiritually speaking)? How is it not man colluding together to erect an edifice (read as 'local church') that shall reach unto the heavens? He who said "I will build my church", does He really need anything more than just our simple faith in Him to do this? He who is able to "work all things together for good to them that love Him and are called according to His purpose", does He need us to "accelerate" this purpose for Him? He, without Whom a "sparrow cannot fall to the ground", and Who "upholds all things by the word of His power", and Who "will finish the work and CUT IT SHORT in RIGHTEOUSNESS", hasn't He, concerning us, 'got this'?

And so, it seems to me, while I agree that attending a seminary or FTT may help one in gaining a little more insight and understanding of the Scriptures overall, it, in actuality, really does not 'serve' God's long-term and eternal purpose, for "knowledge puffeth up"; and on the contrary, it is 'love that builds', and you don't learn that from a power point presentation and a projector.

The problem that I have with the FTT is that it is has created a class of people in the LC who are looked upon as better than everyone else. It almost feels like those who haven't attended the FTT aren't completely "trusted". Virtually any college student who has just graduated and is fairly involved with the LC will be pushed in some way to attend the training.

That is the fundamental flaw: of seeing this "class of people", these 'graduates' as it were, as 'better'. Better at what? Better at espousing the position of the 'ministry'? Better at spewing out footnotes and scripture? or better at receiving one another as God also has received us? or better at forgiving one another and forbearing with one another? or better at not lording it over one another even as the Gentiles do, but being subject to one another? et cetera, et cetera...

Also, to the Unregistered poster, you should register and tell us about yourself. I'm curious to hear about your background with the LC in order to understand where you are coming from.

Curiousity...they say...killed the cat...nevertheless, I shall make my debut before you can have finished calling 'O' Lord Jesus'...

...a thousand times...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Based on my own observation in a few different localities, new elders are almost always full-time training graduates. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that at this point in time, it would be regarded as a strange thing for someone to become an elder in the Lord's Recovery, who has not already attended the full-time training
.

Enrollment in the FTTA meant nothing to those in the GLA.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember reading somewhere and someone saying that one of the first signs of the degradation of the church is the establishment of a special class of disciples who have attended very specialized training. The completion of such training is taken as a mark of advanced spirituality. This development took place in the Catholic church and so too in the Protestant churches. To all intents and purposes this is also developing right beneath our noses in the LC.

But the saying of these things does not make it right. Lee said a lot of things that differentiated us from the rest of Christianity. Some of it was true (the differentiation, not necessarily the importance of it) and some of it was fabricated. But on what basis was is spiritually significant? On what basis does having a training degrade the church? Seems that there was a 3.5 year school of theology for the original teachers. And while Paul was knocked down for the purpose of preaching to the Gentiles, it was years before it really happened.

Not having a school of theology was something that was a fact of the time, but was not truly meaningful, It was more of a way of asserting that Lee, like Nee before him, did not need to have been trained. They just needed to be the ones chosen to bear God's special message. And now they realize that they have to put their "goods" in front of more people and many of them are not as easy to just roll over like we were in the earlier days.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Based on my own observation in a few different localities, new elders are almost always full-time training graduates. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that at this point in time, it would be regarded as a strange thing for someone to become an elder in the Lord's Recovery, who has not already attended the full-time training.

So, would someone who attends meetings in a local church, affiliated with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, please tell me: How is the FTT not a seminary? I would like to know. Thanks in advance.

There's nothing wrong with seminaries, but for LSM/LC Christianity to disparage non-LC Christianity for seminaries while the FTTA is as a para-seminary comes across as a double-standard.
Regarding your observation rayliotta, I could see full-time training graduation not only becoming a factor in eldership, but in marriages too.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

There is not even the slightest attempt to get at the rudiments of righteousness, here called "getting it right". Instead there's a fixation on "the proper way", which is whatever Big Brother, evidently whose "heart is right and pure", is speaking this week. As I said, the need is to protect the organization at all costs.

As I 've said before, many of these blended brothers had a role in the late 80's turmoil as James Lee had with Rosemead or Benson Phillips, Ray Graver among others had with Phillip Lee. Not just the organization, but because of pride, their own reputations.
As a result unrighteous behavior becomes excusable. For brothers such as a Steve Isitt who blows the whistle, it is expedient to expel brothers and sisters who are calling into question procedures and practices of the recovery.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

As I 've said before, many of these blended brothers had a role in the late 80's turmoil as James Lee had with Rosemead or Benson Phillips, Ray Graver among others had with Phillip Lee. Not just the organization, but because of pride, their own reputations.
As a result unrighteous behavior becomes excusable. For brothers such as a Steve Isitt who blows the whistle, it is expedient to expel brothers and sisters who are calling into question procedures and practices of the recovery.

Every "blended" brother in Anaheim has unrighteousness "blood on his hands" or he would not today be in a position of power. It's kind of like the mafioso code of trust -- "prove" we can trust you by "wacking" a few enemies.

Years ago we in the GLA were programmed by Titu Chu to think that only Witness Lee was clean and pure, while all those around him were corrupt or incompetent. Today LSM is trying to convince their followers that the Blendeds enjoy the same "holy" status that Lee once possessed. They promote this message by enforcing "Internet-Free Zones" around the LC's.

Originally Posted by OBW

But the saying of these things does not make it right. Lee said a lot of things that differentiated us from the rest of Christianity. Some of it was true (the differentiation, not necessarily the importance of it) and some of it was fabricated. But on what basis was is spiritually significant? On what basis does having a training degrade the church? Seems that there was a 3.5 year school of theology for the original teachers. And while Paul was knocked down for the purpose of preaching to the Gentiles, it was years before it really happened.

Not having a school of theology was something that was a fact of the time, but was not truly meaningful, It was more of a way of asserting that Lee, like Nee before him, did not need to have been trained. They just needed to be the ones chosen to bear God's special message. And now they realize that they have to put their "goods" in front of more people and many of them are not as easy to just roll over like we were in the earlier days.

From what I recall being told during my time in the LC system; the FTT was a means for one to "accelerate" one's growth in life, that is, what ordinarily would take many years, maybe even a lifetime, now could, through a carefully compiled program, take only several months to achieve. Admittedly, a noble goal and a noble enterprise based on a noble premise, that is, of course, humanly speaking. The major flaw with this is that it presumes, consciously or not, that God either does not know what He is doing, or if He does know, then He certainly needs a helping hand from us. How is this, then, not the Tower of Babel (spiritually speaking)? How is it not man colluding together to erect an edifice (read as 'local church') that shall reach unto the heavens? He who said "I will build my church", does He really need anything more than just our simple faith in Him to do this? He who is able to "work all things together for good to them that love Him and are called according to His purpose", does He need us to "accelerate" this purpose for Him? He, without Whom a "sparrow cannot fall to the ground", and Who "upholds all things by the word of His power", and Who "will finish the work and CUT IT SHORT in RIGHTEOUSNESS", hasn't He, concerning us, 'got this'?

And so, it seems to me, while I agree that attending a seminary or FTT may help one in gaining a little more insight and understanding of the Scriptures overall, it, in actuality, really does not 'serve' God's long-term and eternal purpose, for "knowledge puffeth up"; and on the contrary, it is 'love that builds', and you don't learn that from a power point presentation and a projector.

Originally Posted by Freedom

For the record, I should say that I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with a seminary or having a degree from one. They serve a purpose. In any church outside the LC, I think a pastor would be the only one expected to hold a seminary degree.

The problem that I have with the FTT is that it is has created a class of people in the LC who are looked upon as better than everyone else. It almost feels like those who haven't attended the FTT aren't completely "trusted". Virtually any college student who has just graduated and is fairly involved with the LC will be pushed in some way to attend the training.

Isn't that the fundamental flaw?...of viewing that "class of people", those 'graduates' as it were, as 'better'. Better at what? What precisely are they better at? What have they REALLY profited? Better at espousing the position of the 'ministry'? Better at spewing out footnotes and ignorantly translated scripture? better at saying "be ye warmed and filled"?...or...better at receiving one another as God also has received us? or better at forgiving one another and forbearing with one another? or better at not lording it over one another even as the Gentiles do, but clothing oneself with humility and being subject one to another? or at giving with simplicity? or at showing mercy with cheerfulness? or at being kindly affectioned to one another with a brotherly love that is without dissimulation and in honor preferring one another? et cetera, et cetera...

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

From what I recall being told during my time in the LC system; the FTT was a means for one to "accelerate" one's growth in life, that is, what ordinarily would take many years, maybe even a lifetime, now could, through a carefully compiled program, take only several months to achieve. Admittedly, a noble goal and a noble enterprise based on a noble premise, that is, of course, humanly speaking. The major flaw with this is that it presumes, consciously or not, that God either does not know what He is doing, or if He does know, then He certainly needs a helping hand from us.

Having grown up in the LC, I didn't really begin to understand how big of a role the FTT plays in the LC until I was in college. It was kind of a shock to me when I realized that there was an expectation for everyone to go, along with the implications of not going. I have also heard numerous people say that going to the training is the equivalent of spending many years in the LC.

I really never saw a reason to go, so I didn't, and I am thankful that I had some common sense about it. I feel concerned for those who go to the training. I think most go to the training not because they want to, but out of pressure or a feeling of obligation.

Upon graduating from the FTT, it seems like the emphasis for graduates right now is to serve full time on campuses or whatever. Are FTT graduates being prepared for life in the real world? Are they being prepared for life in the event a church can't support them serving full time?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Isn't that the fundamental flaw?...of viewing that "class of people", those 'graduates' as it were, as 'better'. Better at what? What precisely are they better at? What have they REALLY profited?

I don't think very many attend the training with any specific goal in mind. As I mentioned, I never saw a good reason to go. Regardless, graduating from the FTT serves the same purpose of a college degree, it gives someone they ability to gain more status/respect in the LC.

Many who have graduated from the early days of the FTT are now elders or "leading brothers". For the most part they are not better at anything other than repeating what WL said. Those who never attended any form of training really have no visible role in the LC. That's not to say that having some form of visibility or status means anything special. The issue is that those who don't go to the training are looked down on and ignored. Then they wonder why they have so much trouble gaining and keeping the average Joe in the LC.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I really never saw a reason to go, so I didn't, and I am thankful that I had some common sense about it. I feel concerned for those who go to the training. I think most go to the training not because they want to, but out of pressure or a feeling of obligation.

Good for you!

Originally Posted by Freedom

Upon graduating from the FTT, it seems like the emphasis for graduates right now is to serve full time on campuses or whatever. Are FTT graduates being prepared for life in the real world? Are they being prepared for life in the event a church can't support them serving full time?

I did not go to the training myself, but I knew many who did. My observation is that they are being prepared to either serve full-time, or, if they are from a small locality that probably can't support a full-timer, and wish to return to that locality, then they are really being prepared for a lot of disappointment once they get back home.

As for those who leave the training to serve full-time on the campuses, they are some of the most genuine, committed people around. Many, after serving for a few years, getting married along the way, and soon enough there's a baby on the way (you know, like the ole' Sinatra song). Most of the time, the men find themselves being told by "the brothers" that it's time to get a job to support their new family. And the women (generally) don't continue as full-timers after getting pregnant.

That's all good and well. But what I've observed is a lot of disappointment. Which is perfectly understandable. But it seems awfully unnecessary to me, to build up so many young adults w/the idea that serving full-time is the way to feel fulfilled and happy in their new, post-education, post-training lives -- only to dash it against the rocks as soon as a family comes along. What could be more natural than family? It doesn't need to be viewed in that light.

But it's the culture, at least in some localities, that makes things that way. The culture of many localities revolves so heavily around the campus work. Those former full-timers, suddenly thrust into family obligations, often find themselves feeling rather marginalized all of a sudden. And those who don't go to the FTT in the first place, of course, feel marginalized.

What's "normal" about all that?

Originally Posted by Freedom

I don't think very many attend the training with any specific goal in mind.

I would agree with you, except for one big, specific goal. I alluded to it above.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having grown up in the LC, I didn't really begin to understand how big of a role the FTT plays in the LC until I was in college. It was kind of a shock to me when I realized that there was an expectation for everyone to go, along with the implications of not going. I have also heard numerous people say that going to the training is the equivalent of spending many years in the LC.
I really never saw a reason to go, so I didn't, and I am thankful that I had some common sense about it. I feel concerned for those who go to the training. I think most go to the training not because they want to, but out of pressure or a feeling of obligation.
Upon graduating from the FTT, it seems like the emphasis for graduates right now is to serve full time on campuses or whatever. Are FTT graduates being prepared for life in the real world? Are they being prepared for life in the event a church can't support them serving full time?
I don't think very many attend the training with any specific goal in mind. As I mentioned, I never saw a good reason to go. Regardless, graduating from the FTT serves the same purpose of a college degree, it gives someone they ability to gain more status/respect in the LC.
Many who have graduated from the early days of the FTT are now elders or "leading brothers". For the most part they are not better at anything other than repeating what WL said. Those who never attended any form of training really have no visible role in the LC. That's not to say that having some form of visibility or status means anything special. The issue is that those who don't go to the training are looked down on and ignored. Then they wonder why they have so much trouble gaining and keeping the average Joe in the LC.

It appears that in the United States going to the FTT may now have lost its novelty and appeal. A certain ennui has crept in, if you will, probably on account of the LC system having been there so long. However, it is not so in other parts of the world! Particularly in Africa! The FTT has become the Mecca of spiritual attainment. In the past ten years or so the Gospel according to Lee has been met with very much enthusiasm, at least by that tiny minority of believers on the continent who are not encumbered by messages on material prosperity, marriage, enjoying a good life, and the rest of it, but who have intended to mean real business with God.

Lee's unique approach is very rare indeed and is hardly, if ever, articulated by your run-of-the-mill preacher. The effect of this has been for Lee's gospel to be possessed of a certain aura about it that lends itself to be perceived as a special category of higher revelation. In turn, there has been a corresponding belief that the LC is it! And that there is nothing more! There is nothing out there of parallel worth. And scores and scores of African saints have bought into the Witness Lee Myth and Mythology and think nothing of giving up everything, and spending everything, so that they can waste themselves on...and be one with...the Lord... a.k.a. 'the Ministry' ...and what better way to achieve this?...what better way to take steps towards conforming to the image of the spotless Witness Lee?...of becoming a God-man?...than traveling half way around the globe to spend two years becoming his 'tape-recorder'?...

I'm pretty sure that once upon a time in the history of the LC in the United States this must have been precisely the state of affairs...this fresh-faced enthusiasm and energy and willing sacrifice..but it has, sadly, now degenerated into simply a matter of obligatory attendance to a sustained program of indoctrination and unending tautology.....(yes, I say indoctrination; a view I have always maintained, even while still in the LC)...And if history does indeed have the unfortunate knack of repeating itself, then watch this space as Africa follows closely upon the heels of the LC in the United States.

[awareness]

Campus Work? May as well practice infant baptism.

Originally Posted by awareness

Campus Work? May as well practice infant baptism.

This monkey business of focusing and concentrating evangelistic efforts almost exclusively towards the young and educated elite has always bothered me! What proportion of the population, for one thing, do they even constitute? Here in Africa, it is only a privileged few who even get to attend a primary school (elementary school to you). So you can imagine the paltry number of individuals who are fortunate enough to make it to tertiary level. And so, I ask, how can targeting this demographic have any impactful result on spreading the gospel to "Jerusalem, Judea, and the uttermost parts of the earth"? This particular LC strategy cannot possibly be applied meaningfully in Africa, especially if the one's tasked with reaching out to the community with the gospel are charged to pass me, and people like me, by, as we tend to our crops and raise our animals in the plains and the fields. Fiddlesticks!...if the US government had adopted the same attitude towards awarding scholarships to deserving students in Africa half a century ago, there would be no President Barack Obama!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This monkey business of focusing and concentrating evangelistic efforts almost exclusively towards the young and educated elite has always bothered me! What proportion of the population, for one thing, do they even constitute? Here in Africa, it is only a privileged few who even get to attend a primary school (elementary school to you). So you can imagine the paltry number of individuals who are fortunate enough to make it to tertiary level. And so, I ask, how can targeting this demographic have any impactful result on spreading the gospel to "Jerusalem, Judea, and the uttermost parts of the earth"? This particular LC strategy cannot possibly be applied meaningfully in Africa, especially if the one's tasked with reaching out to the community with the gospel are charged to pass me, and people like me, by, as we tend to our crops and raise our animals in the plains and the fields. Fiddlesticks!...if the US government had adopted the same attitude towards awarding scholarships to deserving students in Africa half a century ago, there would be no President Barack Obama!

I knew I liked you!

Welcome to the forum!

[aron]

, I ask, how can targeting this demographic have any impactful result on spreading the gospel to "Jerusalem, Judea, and the uttermost parts of the earth"? This particular LC strategy cannot possibly be applied meaningfully in Africa,....

Money. Target elites because they have money and can "repay you."

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

A certain ennui has crept in, if you will, probably on account of the LC system having been there so long. However, it is not so in other parts of the world! Particularly in Africa!

And if history does indeed have the unfortunate knack of repeating itself, then watch this space as Africa follows closely upon the heels of the LC in the United States.

What makes you so certain about Africa? Have you witnessed anything there?

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Friedel

What makes you so certain about Africa? Have you witnessed anything there?

I have many friends in Africa who have acquainted me with the situationover there. The interpreted word has been received with much gusto by seeking believers, most especially by those in Ethiopia, which is growing by leaps and bounds. The explanation for this isn't quite clear as this phenomenon isn't exactly replicated elsewhere; certainly not in Uganda, for instance, which has remained stagnated for several years; though, I was told, that a false, but positively glowing, report was delivered to an international audience at a conference in Addis Ababa in 2013 by one of the elders from Kampala on how mightily the church in his locality was growing. But later, as I understand it, shamed by the shocked and confused expressions of some of the more honest saints from his own locality, and possibly pricked by his own conscience, he repented for giving such an inaccurate testimony (in fact, almost immediately after that episode, that dear brother in the Lord took a sabbatical and gave up meeting with the saints or attending the Table meeting for over six months). Ghana, on the other hand, has been a long-standing outpost of the LC and has played host to International Blending Conferences, and ITERO's, and has a Full Time Training schedule...as does South Africa. The saints in Ghana, however, are accused, by other saints in Africa, of being overly legalistic. And the split that occurred over there is well-documented. There are apparently two 'Church in Accra's'... and as I mentioned before, history seems always doomed to 'play it again, Sam'...

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by aron

Money. Target elites because they have money and can "repay you."

Do you honestly believe that the leadership of the LC are really this cynical, this calculating, and this deliberating?
If indeed their only concern with spreading the gospel is to be repaid, then can it not be said of them that they have received their reward in full?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Do you honestly believe that the leadership of the LC are really this cynical, this calculating, and this deliberating?

I have to say, most of the recruits (and attempted recruits) on the campuses are probably not particularly "upper crust." Those folks are usually a little too set, settled, and occupied, so to speak.

So, personally I don't think the LRC leadership is that cynical. However, is there a bit of a class bias inherent in the campus focus? Hmmm, now that's a different matter...

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by awareness

Campus Work? May as well practice infant baptism.

Huh? What's that supposed to mean?

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

So, personally I don't think the LRC leadership is that cynical. However, is there a bit of a class bias inherent in the campus focus? Hmmm, now that's a different matter...

In the FTTA we were told, "don't waste your time" with the poor, the sick, or the old. If they can't repay you, ignore them.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I have to say, most of the recruits (and attempted recruits) on the campuses are probably not particularly "upper crust." Those folks are usually a little too set, settled, and occupied, so to speak.

So, personally I don't think the LRC leadership is that cynical. However, is there a bit of a class bias inherent in the campus focus? Hmmm, now that's a different matter...

For the campus focus to be problematic it is not really necessary that the college students targeted be 'upper crust' or 'upper middle crust'. The fact that the LC hasn't had much success recruiting from this 'settled segment of society' (the 1%, if you will), could just be down to the fact that you are unlikely to find a Kennedy, a Bush, a Walton, a Koch, or a Cargill-MacMillan, etc, etc, attending the community college around the corner from you. You'll find them at the Ivy league's, and I haven't heard of any significant LC presence in the rarefied atmosphere of those hallowed halls, except for some recent attempts to 'take Harvard' (oh, and TC's daughter did go to Harvard).

That, however, doesn't obviate the problem of 'class bias'. You have attempted to make a distinction, but does it really matter that some fellow is a hill-billy from the mountains of Kentucky? If the chap is in college, then the chap is in college! And he is significantly a 'class apart' from a good chunk of the population. You might be interested to know that according to the National Center of Education Statistics, only roughly 30% of Americans aged 25-29 have a Bachelor's degree, compared to roughly 25% of 25-29 year-olds about twenty years ago. Only 8.5% of the entire population of the United States have a post-graduate degree. And a majority of economists agree that those who have degrees have reaped much greater economic rewards than those without (average yearly earnings = $45,500 ). And so, they are, in a very real sense, statistically speaking, the upper, if not the 'outer crust' of society

Which brings me to my main point...How is it Christian to have a special regard for these people based only on the potential of there future earnings? The apostle James would argue that it is absolutely not! He would go on to say, and has said, that 'are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?' The very mention of partiality speaks of 'division' and is evil. And thus this conscious and unconscionable practice of partiality by the LC's becomes a finger pointing right back at them and declaring them to be, if nothing else, that they are hypocrites.

Another reason, I find, for this disproportionate care for and obsession with college students can be uncovered in words attributed to WL that I found quite disturbing when I read them. His comments went somewhere along the lines of how his higher gospel and his deeper revelations could not possibly be hoped to be grasped and understood by the common rank and file; and were so high in fact that they could only be apprehended and properly appreciated by those who were educated at the universities. That, to me, just sounded so wrong! Was this Christ's pattern in the gospels? Did he go about the land seeking out the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and all those that saw themselves as enlightened? I laugh out loud...and I am further amused because according to a recent book entitled Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses (2011) by Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa, numerous professors throughout the United States are quoted as saying that, tragically nowadays, students are only able to pass a plethora of college courses (and with a minimum of effort) because of an almost across-the-board, nationwide, drop in academic standards, that is in addition compounded by an insidious erosion of the academic curriculum. In effect, they are saying, present day American students go to college, spend four years there, and 'graduate' at the end of it all having learned next to nothing! Now I submit to you, considering this, if the premise for targeting college students is that they are superior in some way as 'building material' chiefly because of their larger intellect, their higher education, and their qualifications..well...isn't the joke on WL?

Well did the Lord say, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent"...

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by aron

In the FTTA we were told, "don't waste your time" with the poor, the sick, or the old. If they can't repay you, ignore them.

It is precisely this kind of talk that makes me incredulous! This is most unbelievable to my ears! It's just incredible! What 'pastor' in 'fallen Christianity' would dare to utter such things?...I would love to dismiss you as a disgruntled and bitter ex-member, but then, I do not know you, neither can I simply dismiss you based simply on my own pre-conceived notions? For are you not giving a first-hand account as an authoritative eyewitness? Incredible! I have never heard such things! Perhaps I did not cross over to the 'dark side' quite far enough in the LC system to encounter these things. I am dumbfounded! Imagine a gospel where Christ went about 'not wasting his time' on the poor, the weak, the dying, and the old because they could not 'repay' him. Heaven forbid! This attitude cannot possibly be scriptural! ...Oh, what license! ...

And just to think, it is only the other day when I met up again with DT (one of the Blendeds); he had just been with the saints in Ethiopia; could he have been urging them on in the manner you have described? but how? ...what a jolly old man he is!...so jovial...so easygoing...so full of, "Christ this, and Christ that!"...and so chokeful of , "New Jerusalem this, and New Jerusalem that!"..all the while quite unable to help himself punching the air with his large fist!...I cannot imagine such words as you have quoted above, aron, proceeding forth out of his mouth!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

It is precisely this kind of talk that makes me incredulous! This is most unbelievable to my ears! It's just incredible! What 'pastor' in 'fallen Christianity' would dare to utter such things?...I would love to dismiss you as a disgruntled and bitter ex-member, but then, I do not know you, neither can I simply dismiss you based simply on my own pre-conceived notions? For are you not giving a first-hand account as an authoritative eyewitness? Incredible! I have never heard such things! Perhaps I did not plumb the depths enough of the darkness in the LC. I'm dumbfounded! Imagine a gospel where Christ went about 'ignoring' the poor, the weak, the dying, and the old because they could not 'repay' him. Heaven forbid! This attitude cannot possibly be scriptural! Oh, what license! ..what license!

It is only the other day when I met up again with DT (one of the Blendeds); he had just been to Ethiopia; ...what a jolly old man!...so jovial...so easygoing...so Christ this, and Christ that!...so New Jerusalem this, and New Jerusalem that!...I cannot imagine such words as you have quoted, Aron, coming out of his mouth!

Nor could we ever imagine that dear brother DT could ever go along with those infamous quarantines!

It's kind of like trying to understand how Nicodemus could ever remain with the Pharisees.

[OBW]

Mephibosheth,

Try a larger font. Reading your posts is difficult on aging eyes. Maybe drop the serifs as well. Just use the Verdana. Verdana 2 seems to work well. There is no need to differentiate yourself with the fonts.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by OBW

Mephibosheth,

Try a larger font. Reading your posts is difficult on aging eyes. Maybe drop the serifs as well. Just use the Verdana. Verdana 2 seems to work well. There is no need to differentiate yourself with the fonts.

Thank you for your feedback, OBW. Voila! I have changed the size and the color of the font I'm using. I thought the color might also have been a bit of an issue, though you didn't mention it. I have even taken the liberty of altering my earlier posts to accommodate you, so please feel welcome to peruse through them again...and have at them! Do not hesitate to let me know if you still continue having trouble with reading my posts. However, I would prefer to stick to this font; I just hope the serifs are not too bothersome...

And no, it's not a question of differentiation, it's just a matter of personal preference that I try to maintain as a standard across all of my electronic correspondences (except on facebook...and when texting...and..etc..).

Come to think of it...even my handwriting has serifs too!

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

I have many friends in Africa who have acquainted me with the situationover there. The interpreted word has been received with much gusto by seeking believers, most especially by those in Ethiopia, which is growing by leaps and bounds. The explanation for this isn't quite clear as this phenomenon isn't exactly replicated elsewhere; certainly not in Uganda, for instance, which has remained stagnated for several years; though, I was told, that a false, but positively glowing report was delivered to an international audience at a conference in Addis Ababa in 2013 by one of the elders from Kampala on how mightily the church in his locality was growing. But later, as I understand it, shamed by the shocked and confused expressions of some of the more honest saints from his own locality, and possibly pricked by his own conscience, he repented for giving such an inaccurate testimony (in fact, almost immediately afterwards, that brother took a sabbatical and gave up meeting with the saints or attending the Table meeting for over six months). Ghana, on the other hand, has been a long-standing outpost of the LC and has played host to International Blending Conferences, and ITERO's, and has a Full Time Training schedule...as does South Africa. The saints in Ghana, however, are accused, by other saints in Africa, of being overly legalistic. And the split that occurred over there is well-documented.

This post is a candid attempt to assess the possible success of Living Stream Ministry against the reality of mostly Sub-Saharan Africa; things might be somewhat different in North Africa. It is not an attack on the people living there.

Africa is not the United States and Living Stream Ministry will NEVER be able to build up anything of significance on that dark continent, however hard they try to find some legitimacy anywhere in Africa. DT can be as chirpy as he wants to be but he is exaggerating, like the elder from Kampala.

So-called faith healers, like T B Joshua from Lagos, Nigeria (who reputedly has millions plus in the bank), supposedly heals people but his "guest house" at his tabernacle collapsed in September and more than 100 people died; Reinhard Bonnke, who pitches his huge tent wherever he can and holds evangelistic and healing crusades, and others, like one of the most famous of American "faith healers", John G Lake, who spent a lot of time in South Africa early in the 1900s and founded one of the largest Pentecostal denominations on the continent.

Religion in Africa is a mixture of something of the Bible, superstitious ancestral worship, dubious cultural worship practices, witchcraft, etc.

To try and understand Africa, think (very similar to) Haiti, think hyperPentecostal, think superstition, think extreme poverty, think ancestral worship, think huge cultural divides, think corruption (which the president of one country recently described as a Western concept), think mass starvation, think witch doctors, think tribal and civil wars, think Muslim extremism (in certain countries), think "Black Hawk Down", think … backward, unsophisticated, extremely superstitious …

The whole LSM curriculum is simply too advanced and too sophisticated to make huge inroads in Africa. They will have to get around and eliminate the superstition, cultural traditions, ancestral worship, mass starvation, civil and tribal wars, and ignorance before they will be in a position to really claim success.

Do I suggest that someone from Africa cannot be regenerated and saved from all these influences? No, absolutely not. It is easier to get them saved than to disciple or train them. Also, they have grown all too dependent on the goodwill of the Westerner.

If you ever have the opportunity to see the movie, "Machine Gun Preacher", do so but do not get all teary eyed and carried away by the exploits of former biker and drug pusher, Sam Childers in South Sudan. He has been exposed as someone who has been exaggerating a lot. However, it should give you some idea what the LSM is up against and you will understand why I do not enthusiastically rate their chances.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Thank you for your feedback, OBW. Voila! I have changed the size and the color of the font I'm using. I thought the color might also have been a bit of an issue, though you didn't mention it. I have even taken the liberty of altering my earlier posts to accommodate you, so please feel welcome to peruse through them again...and have at them! Do not hesitate to let me know if you still continue having trouble with reading my posts. However, I would prefer to stick to this font; I just hope the serifs are not too bothersome...

I prefer to use Georgia in my personal correspondence. However, on this forum I use Verdana and I seldom use any color except when quoting from the Bible, when I use the darkest blue available. It all has to do with readability. Check the post I wrote on Africa – I changed your quote to Verdana, size 2, black. I think it reads well, don't you think?

For this forum use the following:

Verdana (not Georgia)
Font size 2
Text Black (not red, green or any color)

Verdana was designed for the internet and it all has to do with the font's X-height, which is why you should stay away from fonts like Times.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Another reason, I find, for this disproportionate care for and obsession with college students can be uncovered in words attributed to WL that I found quite disturbing when I read them. His comments went somewhere along the lines of how his higher gospel and his deeper revelations could not possibly be hoped to be grasped and understood by the common rank and file; and were so high in fact that they could only be apprehended and properly appreciated by those who were educated at the universities.

Act 4:13 Now seeing the constancy of Peter and of John, understanding that they were illiterate and ignorant men, they wondered: and they knew them that they had been with Jesus.

So Lee's "higher gospel and his deeper revelations" must be a different gospel than the one presented by Jesus and the illiterate apostles. The illiteracy rate back in the days of Jesus was 90% or more. By Lee's logic they could never have comprehended his "higher gospel and his deeper revelations..."

This is one evidence that Lee's was a different gospel.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Thank you for your feedback, OBW. Voila! I have changed the size and the color of the font I'm using. I thought the color might also have been a bit of an issue, though you didn't mention it. I have even taken the liberty of altering my earlier posts to accommodate you, so please feel welcome to peruse through them again...and have at them! Do not hesitate to let me know if you still continue having trouble with reading my posts. However, I would prefer to stick to this font; I just hope the serifs are not too bothersome...

And no, it's not a question of differentiation, it's just a matter of personal preference that I try to maintain as a standard across all of my electronic correspondences (except on facebook...and when texting...and..etc..).

Come to think of it...even my handwriting has serifs too!

Color, font, size, and content are all quite good.

The "Preview" button is great when trying something new.

Welcome to the forum!

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I prefer to use Georgia in my personal correspondence. However, on this forum I use Verdana and I seldom use any color except when quoting from the Bible, when I use the darkest blue available. It all has to do with readability. Check the post I wrote on Africa – I changed your quote to Verdana, size 2, black. I think it reads well, don't you think?


For this forum use the following:

Verdana (not Georgia)
Font size 2
Text Black (not red, green or any color)

Verdana was designed for the internet and it all has to do with the font's X-height, which is why you should stay away from fonts like Times.

Thank you for trying to help me, Friedel. But I have sincerely tried to roll over backwards on this one and make myself readable. I appreciated OBW's concerns and enlarged my font, and changed the color too, so that the contrast would be sharper, in order to accommodate him and other readers.

Maybe what I need is a good dose of my own medicine because I honestly cannot understand all the hullabaloo. Would you, then, be so kind as to copy and paste your last post on Africa (or just temporarily change it) in 'Georgia', size 3, and color green (fourth from left), so that I can get some idea of the difficulty being encountered by others. Cheers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Act 4:13 Now seeing the constancy of Peter and of John, understanding that they were illiterate and ignorant men, they wondered: and they knew them that they had been with Jesus.

That verse could also be translated "unschooled and unlettered" referring to how the elitists in Jerusalem considered all outsiders, especially those "hillbillies" from the north country of Galilee, but should not be taken to indicate that any of the disciples were unintelligent and ignorant imbeciles.

Except for a few select individuals, even the God of the universe, walking on earth in the Man Christ Jesus, had difficulty impressing these arrogant elitists in Jerusalem.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Color, font, size, and content are all quite good.

The "Preview" button is great when trying something new.

Welcome to the forum!

Why, thank you, kind sir!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Why, thank you, kind sir!

Uhhh ... yes ... I am a guy, an old guy with aging eyes, and from Ohio.

And you're very welcome.

Btw, is there a special reason you picked the name Mephibosheth?

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Thank you for trying to help me, Friedel. But I have sincerely tried to roll over backwards on this one and make myself readable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
I have many friends in Africa who have acquainted me with the situationover there. The interpreted word has been received with much gusto by seeking believers, most especially by those in Ethiopia, which is growing by leaps and bounds. The explanation for this isn't quite clear as this phenomenon isn't exactly replicated elsewhere; certainly not in Uganda, for instance, which has remained stagnated for several years; though, I was told, that a false, but positively glowing report was delivered to an international audience at a conference in Addis Ababa in 2013 by one of the elders from Kampala on how mightily the church in his locality was growing. But later, as I understand it, shamed by the shocked and confused expressions of some of the more honest saints from his own locality, and possibly pricked by his own conscience, he repented for giving such an inaccurate testimony (in fact, almost immediately afterwards, that brother took a sabbatical and gave up meeting with the saints or attending the Table meeting for over six months). Ghana, on the other hand, has been a long-standing outpost of the LC and has played host to International Blending Conferences, and ITERO's, and has a Full Time Training schedule...as does South Africa. The saints in Ghana, however, are accused, by other saints in Africa, of being overly legalistic. And the split that occurred over there is well-documented.


This post is a candid attempt to assess the possible success of Living Stream Ministry against the reality of mostly Sub-Saharan Africa; things might be somewhat different in North Africa. It is not an attack on the people living there.

Africa is not the United States and Living Stream Ministry will NEVER be able to build up anything of significance on that dark continent, however hard they try to find some legitimacy anywhere in Africa. DT can be as chirpy as he wants to be but he is exaggerating, like the elder from Kampala.

So-called faith healers, like T B Joshua from Lagos, Nigeria (who reputedly has millions plus in the bank), supposedly heals people but his "guest house" at his tabernacle collapsed in September and more than 100 people died; Reinhard Bonnke, who pitches his huge tent wherever he can and holds evangelistic and healing crusades, and others, like one of the most famous of American "faith healers", John G Lake, who spent a lot of time in South Africa early in the 1900s and founded one of the largest Pentecostal denominations on the continent.

Religion in Africa is a mixture of something of the Bible, superstitious ancestral worship, dubious cultural worship practices, witchcraft, etc.

To try and understand Africa, think (very similar to) Haiti, think hyperPentecostal, think superstition, think extreme poverty, think ancestral worship, think huge cultural divides, think corruption (which the president of one country recently described as a Western concept), think mass starvation, think witch doctors, think tribal and civil wars, think Muslim extremism (in certain countries), think "Black Hawk Down", think … backward, unsophisticated, extremely superstitious …

The whole LSM curriculum is simply too advanced and too sophisticated to make huge inroads in Africa. They will have to get around and eliminate the superstition, cultural traditions, ancestral worship, mass starvation, civil and tribal wars, and ignorance before they will be in a position to really claim success.

Do I suggest that someone from Africa cannot be regenerated and saved from all these influences? No, absolutely not. It is easier to get them saved than to disciple or train them. Also, they have grown all too dependent on the goodwill of the Westerner.

If you ever have the opportunity to see the movie, "Machine Gun Preacher", do so but do not get all teary eyed and carried away by the exploits of former biker and drug pusher, Sam Childers in South Sudan. He has been exposed as someone who has been exaggerating a lot. However, it should give you some idea what the LSM is up against and you will understand why I do not enthusiastically rate their chances.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That verse could also be translated "unschooled and unlettered" referring to how the elitists in Jerusalem considered all outsiders, especially those "hillbillies" from the north country of Galilee, but should not be taken to indicate that any of the disciples were unintelligent and ignorant imbeciles.

Except for a few select individuals, even the God of the universe, walking on earth in the Man Christ Jesus, had difficulty impressing these arrogant elitists in Jerusalem.

That's right, God did have trouble persuading those arrogant elitists in Jerusalem, didn't he? But what makes it all the more sad is that...

... "among the chief rulers also many believed on him (Jesus); but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God"...(John 12:42-43)

Earlier you alluded to DT's support of the quarantines. Isn't it possible that perhaps something of the principle above was at work in his decision? Of course, we cannot know that, unless he tell us...but still, nonetheless, it remains something to mull over...and especially so in the light of something else that came to mind vis-a-vis the period of the 'Present Turmoil'...a very interesting piece of history that may go some way in explaining the actions of DT in the present.

Let's go on....

In an elders meeting in July of 1988, during Brother Lee's speaking, many of the brothers, grieved about the direction that the LC was taking, were expecting WL to speak on the situation at the LSM office with PL and to offer some guidance in dealing with it; the brothers also expected him to comment on the situation concerning the full-time training in Taipei and all that had transpired there. Brother Lee, in his usual fashion, did not address either of these concerns!...and instead went on and on and on about...yes, that's it...'going on'!!! It was DT and another brother who managed to summon up the courage to pointedly ask him a series of questions that came as close as was humanly possible in that restrictive environment to touching on the real issues in the Recovery. I've picked out one of DT's questions because I think it sheds some interesting light on how his mind works, on how he comes by his decisions, and on what primarily concerns him. The last point raised in that question is also remarkable by way of the 'up, close, and personal' bearing it has with the scripture I've quoted above.

DT asked, "Many times you reach a point in your experience where you have genuine concerns. How can you fellowship about these concerns without being considered as negative and thereby causing another problem. This is a concern to me..." (quoted from John Ingalls).

Perhaps, perhaps, in not opposing the quarantine, as contrasted to actively supporting it, DT did not want to be considered 'negative' or to be seen as one 'causing another problem'. One could go further to say that he did not speak up lest he be 'put out of the synagogue'. After all, we now know, don't we...that this... 'concerned him'...

p.s. oh, by the way, Nicodemus, though a pharisee, played an integral part in the taking down of the Lord's body from the tree together with Joseph of Arimathea. It's really not clear if he remained in the sect of the pharisees after that...

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Friedel

Quote:I have many friends in Africa
This post is a candid attempt to assess the possible success of Living Stream Ministry
Religion in Africa is a mixture of something of the Bible, superstitious ancestral worship, dubious cultural worship practices, witchcraft, etc.

Thank you, Friedel.

Seeing a post written in my own style from somebody else has enabled me to see what the main challenge would have been to me if I were the one with failing eyesight and was greeted with text like this ...and for me, the main problem would definitely have been the 'color'. I still see nothing wrong, though, with the font style I've been using, but I think increasing the size of it helped. Otherwise the font 'Verdana', whether that be 1 or 2, still remains deeply and unapologetically unappealing to me!!!...I honestly cannot fathom how it can fail to have the same effect on other posters.

But thank you again, anyway...

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Uhhh ... yes ... I am a guy, an old guy with aging eyes, and from Ohio.

And you're very welcome.

Btw, is there a special reason you picked the name Mephibosheth?

Thank you very much, Ohio. I feel welcomed. And I, too, feel like an old person...who wears glasses!...

Absolutely yes, there is a special reason I picked that name...of Jonathan's son, King Saul's grandson...a very personal reason which, if one will pay careful attention to my posts over time, I have no doubt will occasionally peep over the parapet of all the polemic and the verbiage and give a hint of as to why; and to the more perceptive and retentive, maybe even draw a picture.

And I'm guessing that you picked the name 'Ohio' because....er...because....um...er...because...wai t, I've got it...because you're from Greater Ohio!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I really never saw a reason to go, so I didn't, and I am thankful that I had some common sense about it. I feel concerned for those who go to the training. I think most go to the training not because they want to, but out of pressure or a feeling of obligation.

Upon graduating from the FTT, it seems like the emphasis for graduates right now is to serve full time on campuses or whatever. Are FTT graduates being prepared for life in the real world? Are they being prepared for life in the event a church can't support them serving full time?

I don't think very many attend the training with any specific goal in mind. As I mentioned, I never saw a good reason to go. Regardless, graduating from the FTT serves the same purpose of a college degree, it gives someone they ability to gain more status/respect in the LC.

Many who have graduated from the early days of the FTT are now elders or "leading brothers". For the most part they are not better at anything other than repeating what WL said. Those who never attended any form of training really have no visible role in the LC. That's not to say that having some form of visibility or status means anything special. The issue is that those who don't go to the training are looked down on and ignored. Then they wonder why they have so much trouble gaining and keeping the average Joe in the LC.

Your post has been my sense too. A younger brother I counseled regarding the full time training. If he goes, it should because he wants to. It should not be a result of obligation or peer-pressure.

Some young people I believe, the full time training is an escape from having to answer why they don't go (as I had to answer to) and a of delay responsibilities of life.

I have considered, what does the full time training prepare you for? Maybe service within the church whether it's in evangelism or serving the young people. Are trainees trained in scripture passages that is counterpoint to LSM publications?

I don't think attending Full Time training is to fulfill a status or an ambition, but the end result is being received favorably much more than one who has not.

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? James 2:1-4

Who is the rich man and who is the poor man? Based on local church attitudes and behaviors, the rich man is the full time trainees/graduates and the poor man are the ones who never went.
Distinctions among brothers and sisters have been made. There is a culture of partiality where certain brothers and sisters have been marginalized.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Seeing a post written in my own style from somebody else has enabled me to see what the main challenge would have been to me if I were the one with failing eyesight and was greeted with text like this ...and for me, the main problem would definitely have been the 'color'. I still see nothing wrong, though, with the font style I've been using, but I think increasing the size of it helped. Otherwise the font 'Verdana', whether that be 1 or 2, still remains deeply and unapologetically unappealing to me!!!...I honestly cannot fathom how it can fail to have the same effect on other posters.

I guess that's why Verdana Font has always been my favorite ... perhaps there's something unapologetically unappealing about Ole Ohio.

But all is well ... I understand my new spectacles will be ready soon.

P.S. I may employ excessive liberty with that phrase "greater ohio."

P.P.S. I'm already thinking that I know you.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

.
What makes it worse is that those taking the lead in the LCs, never tell anyone what is said on the internet besides saying that it's "negative".

That's because those taking the lead don't know themselves what is on the internet. Had they, might be sharing the same concerns brought out on this forum.

I believe local leaders are told general things such as so and so is slandering the brothers, attacking the ministry, etc. Local leaders tend to take such statements at face value without checking the facts.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's because those taking the lead don't know themselves what is on the internet. Had they, might be sharing the same concerns brought out on this forum.

I believe local leaders are told general things such as so and so is slandering the brothers, attacking the ministry, etc. Local leaders tend to take such statements at face value without checking the facts.

I'm curious also as what part of LC leadership actually reads these forums. I know the blendeds to, but I wouldn't think many of the elders do. I'm sure some do though. I've heard brothers like Ron make vague references to things said on the internet, so I'm sure he reads things here.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's because those taking the lead don't know themselves what is on the internet. Had they, might be sharing the same concerns brought out on this forum.

I believe local leaders are told general things such as so and so is slandering the brothers, attacking the ministry, etc. Local leaders tend to take such statements at face value without checking the facts.

I know it's hard to say, but I'm still relatively convinced that the scandals from the 80's are not quite as hidden as you seem to think, Terry. I think we want to believe that when people learn about the strange things from the past, they will understand that LSM is just another ministry among many. And has no claim to calling itself, "the ministry of the age." But alas, for some people it is apparently so much more complicated than that... <sigh> ...

[aron]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Incredible! I have never heard such things! Perhaps I did not cross over to the 'dark side' quite far enough in the LC system to encounter these things. I am dumbfounded! Imagine a gospel where Christ went about 'not wasting his time' on the poor, the weak, the dying, and the old because they could not 'repay' him.

Consider Peter's concise summary of the ministry and person of Jesus Christ, given to the eager Gentiles. Here is the gospel according to Peter, in Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him."

Wow! Jesus went around doing good!!?? Where did we see that in all the "high peak truths" concerning "God's New Testament economy" with "masticating God" and "becoming God" and "the church as the organism of the triune God"??

Nowhere, that's where. We got teaching and organization-building, but if anyone tentatively suggested "doing good" in any way, shape or form (unless it was to the "good building materials" who could be expected to repay, of course) it was met with stony silence. And if you persisted in attempting to "do good" you would be sternly told that salvation was not of works, but of grace. Read your Ephesians, they would say, and compare with James' epistle, and make up your mind. The Oracle has spoken, and the Word interpreted. No works.

Now, a lot of this is cultural. I tried to point this out in the "Asian mind and the Western mind" thread. It is not simply that WL was a wolf disguised as a sheep. But we downplayed or ignored the social, psychological, and cultural elements. We missed the idea of a socially- and historically-derived understanding of a text. Instead we imbibed the teaching of WL as if it were God Himself channeling to us, as if it were manna from heaven. We made the mistake of not exercising our critical faculties, and eventually it took us far astray. The gospel, in WL's hands, became something entirely different from what Peter saw, and remembered, and spoke of.

And I agree, the internet allows us to compare and contrast. What do we see in the original, versus what we see in the supposed copy, and extension, of the original. We now have the capacity for objective analysis. And we owe it to ourselves, and to others. We did the crime, now let's do the time.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I know it's hard to say, but I'm still relatively convinced that the scandals from the 80's are not quite as hidden as you seem to think, Terry. I think we want to believe that when people learn about the strange things from the past, they will understand that LSM is just another ministry among many. And has no claim to calling itself, "the ministry of the age." But alas, for some people it is apparently so much more complicated than that... <sigh> ...

I know some that had never heard of the things that actually went on in Anaheim until the last 2 or 3 years. It was not known where it was not known. People who heard and stayed around got fellowshipped really quickly to be quiet about it. And the rest left. So only those nearby had any idea in a broad way.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm curious also as what part of LC leadership actually reads these forums. I know the blendeds to, but I wouldn't think many of the elders do. I'm sure some do though. I've heard brothers like Ron make vague references to things said on the internet, so I'm sure he reads things here.

I think leadership just hear vague generalities, but nothing specific. I am sure DCP has their monitors here as well as thebereans and notify Ron among other blendeds about it.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I know it's hard to say, but I'm still relatively convinced that the scandals from the 80's are not quite as hidden as you seem to think, Terry. I think we want to believe that when people learn about the strange things from the past, they will understand that LSM is just another ministry among many. And has no claim to calling itself, "the ministry of the age." But alas, for some people it is apparently so much more complicated than that... <sigh> ...

Most have not read Speaking the Truth in Love or Reconsideration of the Vision. Rather Fermentation of the Present Rebellion or the book Kangas and Robichaux wrote. I know family members regard the other side of the coin as rumors while what LSM pulbishes is considered to be more factual.
Years ago before coming to this forum, I had asked my (now late) uncle about Phillip Lee. In all my years with my uncle, that was the only time I saw an outburst of anger. That in itself indicates there is merit to John Ingall's book and the anonymous author(s) who wrote Reconsideration of the Vision.

The best I have heard from current elders regarding our LC history is "feel to honor the feeling of the body". This was after I provided Bill mallon's letter to Witness Lee among other writings regarding the past.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I know some that had never heard of the things that actually went on in Anaheim until the last 2 or 3 years. It was not known where it was not known. People who heard and stayed around got fellowshipped really quickly to be quiet about it. And the rest left. So only those nearby had any idea in a broad way.

Titus Chu knew and supported John Ingalls, that is until Lee and Son talked to him about his loyalties, and then TC flip-flopped.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

The best I have heard from current elders regarding our LC history is "feel to honor the feeling of the body". This was after I provided Bill mallon's letter to Witness Lee among other writings regarding the past.

Whose body are we feeling to honor?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whose body are we feeling to honor?

"When the co-workers taking the lead in the ministry, acting as representatives of the Body and responding to and expressing the feeling of the Body"

http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...tml#Respecting

Based on the article the Body of Christ is either made narrower or there's a presumption only a select group of brothers are qualified to discern the feeling of Christ's body on behalf of millions of Christians across the globe without respect to the congregations they meet with.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by Terry

"When the co-workers taking the lead in the ministry, acting as representatives of the Body and responding to and expressing the feeling of the Body"

http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...tml#Respecting

Based on the article the Body of Christ is either made narrower or there's a presumption only a select group of brothers are qualified to discern the feeling of Christ's body on behalf of millions of Christians across the globe without respect to the congregations they meet with.

I must ask, how is this not a 'clergy-laity' arrangement, or, at least, the beginnings of one?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

I must ask, how is this not a 'clergy-laity' arrangement, or, at least, the beginnings of one?

Point to 1 Corinthians 14:26 to say it's not. Everyone can prophesy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

I must ask, how is this not a 'clergy-laity' arrangement, or, at least, the beginnings of one?

There you go matey ...

Once we have established the para-church structure called "the Work," headed up by the senior worker, we, by definition, have a hierarchy, which is synonymous to the clergy-laity system.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

"When the co-workers taking the lead in the ministry, acting as representatives of the Body and responding to and expressing the feeling of the Body"

http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...tml#Respecting

Based on the article the Body of Christ is either made narrower or there's a presumption only a select group of brothers are qualified to discern the feeling of Christ's body on behalf of millions of Christians across the globe without respect to the congregations they meet with.

That is precisely the problem. The "coworkers" feel that they have the discernment that everyone else is lacking. I remember during the whole LSM vs midwest ordeal, the coworkers stated that the "Blended Brothers" are an open group that anyone who is "blended" can be apart of. What a lie that was! They never qualified what it means to be "blended" with them.

During that time, I must say that I really believed the illusion that they created.

However, if they had an honest heart to resolve the conflict between them and the Midwest, they would have let brothers from the midwest be a part of their group. It was never really about that though. Their group is really about maintaining an appearance of "blending", all the while using that as a means to tell everyone what to do.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

That is precisely the problem. The "coworkers" feel that they have the discernment that everyone else is lacking. I remember during the whole LSM vs midwest ordeal, the coworkers stated that the "Blended Brothers" are an open group that anyone who is "blended" can be apart of. What a lie that was! They never qualified what it means to be "blended" with them.

When asked to qualify just exactly who was part of the "Blended" clique, or who were the members of their "club," we would receive some kind of cute reply like, "The Blended brothers are all of those brothers who are being blended together."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When asked to qualify just exactly who was part of the "Blended" clique, or who were the members of their "club," we would receive some kind of cute reply like, "The Blended brothers are all of those brothers who are being blended together."

I've heard that one before. Something that I was considering a while back is that when the current generation of BB's pass on (they are getting older), who is going to replace them? What I mean by that is what will be the factors that determines whether some is let into the club or not. I doubt any brothers much younger than them had a personal relationship with WL, other than possibly attending the FTTA while WL was still alive.

So what will end up being the criteria for new BBs? FTT attendance and graduation - check. Ability to recite WL outlines and footnotes - check. But what else? There are lots whom have attended the training now and virtually everyone can recite/paraphrase WL.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When asked to qualify just exactly who was part of the "Blended" clique, or who were the members of their "club," we would receive some kind of cute reply like, "The Blended brothers are all of those brothers who are being blended together."

I often wondered, when we would all land at some big hotel for a regional "blending conference," what other people thought when they saw those words on the marquee. "Such-and-Such Regional Blending Conference." Maybe they thought we were NutriBullet salesman?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by OBW

I know some that had never heard of the things that actually went on in Anaheim until the last 2 or 3 years. It was not known where it was not known. People who heard and stayed around got fellowshipped really quickly to be quiet about it. And the rest left. So only those nearby had any idea in a broad way.

Fair enough, OBW. But you acknowledge that some people know, stay, and keep quiet. So I'm not sure how you can be so sure that "only those nearby had any idea in a broad way." Do you mean nearby Anaheim? I was in another area of the country, and I can tell you for a fact that some people where I was know about problems arising from Philip Lee, Daystar, et cetera, and remain loyal and devoted to the Lord's Recovery.

Not saying I can explain it. Just saying I saw it.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

That, however, doesn't obviate the problem of 'class bias'. You have attempted to make a distinction, but does it really matter that some fellow is a hill-billy from the mountains of Kentucky? If the chap is in college, then the chap is in college! And he is significantly a 'class apart' from a good chunk of the population. You might be interested to know that according to the National Center of Education Statistics, only roughly 30% of Americans aged 25-29 have a Bachelor's degree, compared to roughly 25% of 25-29 year-olds about twenty years ago. Only 8.5% of the entire population of the United States have a post-graduate degree. And a majority of economists agree that those who have degrees have reaped much greater economic rewards than those without (average yearly earnings = $45,500 ). And so, they are, in a very real sense, statistically speaking, the upper, if not the 'outer crust' of society.

Well I'm not sure how relevant any of this is, but according to PBS, it's nearly 40% of American adults who have at least an associate's degree, and it's 62% who have at least some college (including those who have not finished any degree). Granted, I haven't seen too much focus on recruitment at community colleges in the Recovery. But at the least, bear in mind that not everyone who has ever been a target of freshmen recruiting by the LRC necessarily graduates.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...al-challenges/

But the broader point is, that on the one hand, obviously the Recovery is not focusing on the rich (or famous) like Scientology does. And I doubt there's any kind of trend to establish meeting halls in wealthy neighborhoods. Or really, anything like that.

On the hand, they focus their recruitment efforts very specifically on the 30-40% or so of the population who go to college. Why is that? What about the other 60-70%? That is a question that deserves asking.

[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Well I'm not sure how relevant any of this is, but according to PBS, it's nearly 40% of American adults who have at least an associate's degree, and it's 62% who have at least some college (including those who have not finished any degree). Granted, I haven't seen too much focus on recruitment at community colleges in the Recovery. But at the least, bear in mind that not everyone who has ever been a target of freshmen recruiting by the LRC necessarily graduates.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...al-challenges/

But the broader point is, that on the one hand, obviously the Recovery is not focusing on the rich (or famous) like Scientology does. And I doubt there's any kind of trend to establish meeting halls in wealthy neighborhoods. Or really, anything like that.

On the hand, they focus their recruitment efforts very specifically on the 30-40% or so of the population who go to college. Why is that? What about the other 60-70%? That is a question that deserves asking.

I quite agree...

..and without nitpicking the statistics (my demographic was 25-29 year-olds i.e. those the LRC would be more keenly interested in proselytizing), I think we've said broadly the same thing...
...what you have called the 'glass half-empty', I have stated as the.."glass half-full...and even less so!"..

[Lisbon]

The minister at "my" church has been speaking from the two letters to Timothy. You can't touch this in the LC. Receive not an accusation against an elder except with two or three witnesses. I believe it is well established that an accusation with ten accusers does not fly in the LC. They can smear and get rid of ten as well as one. Any accusation in the LC is divisive and they remove all divisions. Remember Paul said I think in Phil that everyone should speak the same thing. That does simplify things I have to admit. I happen to be a tee totaler but if the BBs want to OK drinking in the LSM it is certainly not any of my business. Bug off or get out. We love you anyway.

It's hard for me to understand "saints" who knew the fiasco in Anaheim and LSM in the late 80's can stomach such. Personally I knew little of this until I came to this forum but I have been able to confirm it elsewhere.

Liisbon

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I've heard that one before. Something that I was considering a while back is that when the current generation of BB's pass on (they are getting older), who is going to replace them?

The past 3-4 years or more each mid-November James Lee and Ron Kangas visit the Puget Sound area to give a Friday night-Lords Day weekend conference in Seattle/Bellevue. At one of the conferences several years ago Ron Kangas uttered the phrase in respect to BB's getting older..."I'm not going to step aside for anyone...".

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

It's hard for me to understand "saints" who knew the fiasco in Anaheim and LSM in the late 80's can stomach such. Personally I knew little of this until I came to this forum but I have been able to confirm it elsewhere.

I know. A lot of people there feel "trapped" in some weird kind of way. I know I did. Did you ever feel trapped when you were there?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

At one of the conferences several years ago Ron Kangas uttered the phrase in respect to BB's getting older..."I'm not going to step aside for anyone...".

So he admits that being a BB is a position (we already knew that). This is in contrast to the image that was presented to the public of the BBs being a simple group of brothers who are blended.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I know. A lot of people there feel "trapped" in some weird kind of way. I know I did. Did you ever feel trapped when you were there?

This can be a feeling of older brothers and sisters who know the history, but don't see any better alternatives.
On one hand feeling trapped, but on the other hand would love to see the bb's subjected to depositions. Answering truthfully under oath for the purpose of acknowledging the matters surrounding Daystar, Phillip Lee, etc.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

So he admits that being a BB is a position (we already knew that). This is in contrast to the image that was presented to the public of the BBs being a simple group of brothers who are blended.

Great point. "Step aside" from what, exactly?

Terry, do you remember any more of what Ron Kangas said?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

This can be a feeling of older brothers and sisters who know the history, but don't see any better alternatives.
On one hand feeling trapped, but on the other hand would love to see the bb's subjected to depositions. Answering truthfully under oath for the purpose of acknowledging the matters surrounding Daystar, Phillip Lee, etc.

Terry, I get the feeling there's a lot you're not saying. Obviously you don't have to say any more than you wish. But if you feel to share, I'm interested to know more about what your uncle's reaction was re John Ingalls?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Terry, I get the feeling there's a lot you're not saying. Obviously you don't have to say any more than you wish. But if you feel to share, I'm interested to know more about what your uncle's reaction was re John Ingalls?

To be honest rayliotta, it was a question I wasn't expecting to be asked that evening. Having been driving all day from Twin Falls, I was really mentally fatigued. He was the one asking the question and I responded John is still living in Anaheim. That's when my uncle brought up hosting John for hospitality.
I wondered how many more older couples in the local churches have fond memories of former elders and leading ones?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

I wondered how many more older couples in the local churches have fond memories of former elders and leading ones?

I was thinking about this today. It actually is an interesting question. Most older saints and those currently in the lead weren't under WL directly but under elders including some who have since left.

Furthermore, I think what older saints may claim "attracted" them to the LC are old practices that are non-existent in the modern LC. If someone's initial experience in the LC was positive and it involved people/practices who are no longer in the LC, it must be a difficult thing to swallow.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Furthermore, I think what older saints may claim "attracted" them to the LC are old practices that are non-existent in the modern LC. If someone's initial experience in the LC was positive and it involved people/practices who are no longer in the LC, it must be a difficult thing to swallow.

This is consistent with a theory I have mentioned over the past few years that there really was something solid in the early days and it was not really the LRC, but the people who were the early members. But as Lee slowly put the screws on it and took control, the people and practices that were appealing went away.

For me, this is evidence that the true LRC was simply in waiting in those early days as both the appealing aspects of the natural and truly spiritual practices of the early members attracted more and more of us. Then as the ugly of Lee and his exclusivist teachings took over, the whole thing changed into his vision of church — a vision that looks nothing like the church in the NT.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

This is consistent with a theory I have mentioned over the past few years that there really was something solid in the early days and it was not really the LRC, but the people who were the early members. But as Lee slowly put the screws on it and took control, the people and practices that were appealing went away.

For me, this is evidence that the true LRC was simply in waiting in those early days as both the appealing aspects of the natural and truly spiritual practices of the early members attracted more and more of us. Then as the ugly of Lee and his exclusivist teachings took over, the whole thing changed into his vision of church — a vision that looks nothing like the church in the NT.

There are some ex-members who have said that Lee hijacked the movement, wresting control from the Holy Spirit.

In those early days I watched all the "credits" at the end of the "movie" slowly have Lee's name written on them. Not to be outdone, TC did the same in the GLA.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are some ex-members who have said that Lee hijacked the movement, wresting control from the Holy Spirit.

I have been told as much by ones who used to meet with the local churches. The are still meeting on the ground of oneness, but LSM led many off that ground to a different ground. The vision these ex-members have hasn't changed, it's pro-LSM brothers and sisters who had a change in vision.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

I have been told as much by ones who used to meet with the local churches. The are still meeting on the ground of oneness, but LSM led many off that ground to a different ground. The vision these ex-members have hasn't changed, it's pro-LSM brothers and sisters who had a change in vision.

Has anyone considered that the LC and other "ground" claiming Christians are just dividing everyone. The Plymouth/Exclusive/etc Brethren churches should give us pause for concern. How about this: Try to get together with all of the churches of faith in your city for a Vesper service of prayer and music, or at least prayer and don't try to convert anyone to your way of thinking. You could still exercise your idea of locality but expand it to openness to all Christians in your city...and it has to be real. Then when you meet together at a different time in your LC you would have a sense of oneness with other Christians...it's expansive. The local church idea is not a fundamental Christian doctrine folks. People seem to be equating it to the Trinity or the divine nature of Christ.

The local church idea was concocted in China when Nee was fighting against colonialist ideas of denominations trying to expand. We have attempted, rather foolishly, in my opinion, to try and translate that to the US. In comes WL with his ideas which we all bought into it and now you have the BB. There are no local churches but only the vision of the LSM and trying to fool around with claiming the "ground" hasn't worked but only divided the LC/"other claims of the ground" from other Christians with lawsuits, hate and division. Look at the fruits of the endeavor of "claiming the ground" whether it is the LC or independent claims of "the ground". Has it brought any unity? If you really believe this then print up brochures, march, do everything in your power to bring other Christians into the "true" light. Either be "hot" or "cold". Don't equivocate!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

Has anyone considered that the LC and other "ground" claiming Christians are just dividing everyone. The Plymouth/Exclusive/etc Brethren churches should give us pause for concern. How about this: Try to get together with all of the churches of faith in your city for a Vesper service of prayer and music, or at least prayer and don't try to convert anyone to your way of thinking. You could still exercise your idea of locality but expand it to openness to all Christians in your city...and it has to be real. Then when you meet together at a different time in your LC you would have a sense of oneness with other Christians...it's expansive. The local church idea is not a fundamental Christian doctrine folks. People seem to be equating it to the Trinity or the divine nature of Christ.

The local church idea was concocted in China when Nee was fighting against colonialist ideas of denominations trying to expand. We have attempted, rather foolishly, in my opinion, to try and translate that to the US. In comes WL with his ideas which we all bought into it and now you have the BB. There are no local churches but only the vision of the LSM and trying to fool around with claiming the "ground" hasn't worked but only divided the LC/"other claims of the ground" from other Christians with lawsuits, hate and division. Look at the fruits of the endeavor of "claiming the ground" whether it is the LC or independent claims of "the ground". Has it brought any unity? If you really believe this then print up brochures, march, do everything in your power to bring other Christians into the "true" light. Either be "hot" or "cold". Don't equivocate!

I don't think anyone was trying to say that a version of the LC without WL/LSM is the ideal model of the church or even close. The point I wanted to make is that I think there was something more "attractive" so to speak, about the early LC vs what it is today. I have heard many stories and memories of the early LC days that suggest some had a very positive experience. Today the "best" you can get is to sit in a meeting and listen to everyone regurgitate WL materials. I know that somewhere I read/heard Ron Kangas criticize saint who are nostalgic about the early days of the LC.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are some ex-members who have said that Lee hijacked the movement, wresting control from the Holy Spirit.

In those early days I watched all the "credits" at the end of the "movie" slowly have Lee's name written on them. Not to be outdone, TC did the same in the GLA.

Ohio,

But the problem with the characterization of "hijacked" is that the whole thing was originally a collection of small independent groups who saw Lee as both brining and continuing Nee's ministry. So Lee was always part of the center. We were just unaware of the nature of both the ministry of Nee that we then sought (and are not entirely aware of it now), and that of the "meek" little itinerant preacher that we focused our attention on.

If somehow the collection of groups had simply formed around something else (maybe even the natural desire of BP to lead a Christian group) we may have avoided some of the extremes because we would not have been introduced to doctrines like deputy authority, the ground, and even "God's economy" as Lee taught it. And the group would probably have been fairly Baptist in its core theology. It still would not be "The Local Church." But might have been acceptable as a long-term alternative to whatever it was we came from.

Instead, it was centered around Lee from the beginning, even if everyone did not understand that or realize where it would lead.

Yes Lee hijacked our freedom in Christ. And he used an extreme amount of early freedom to get us on board and fully behind him before he did it. Now the only freedom is smoke and mirrors. No church is simply local (and while I don't really care about that, it is the claim in the face of obvious external control that is a mockery of their teaching). They don't even have a practice that remotely resembles their original version of "all can prophesy" (again something that I do not think ever meant what we were taught).

But we signed-up for Lee. At first in a smaller way. But eventually in a more substantial way. At some level, you can say he hijacked it. But it is also true that we voted him in with our feet. To borrow from someone's comments about another takeover, when he took our money, we did not complain because it was only money. When he took greater control in the late 70s, we blamed Max. When he began to enforce control on the operation of the local assemblies in the 80s, we blamed John I. When Anaheim began to dictate the number of songs for a meeting (typically one) and which one it would be, there was no one left to blame other than the source, but we were hooked and couldn't blame. I was leaving in 87, so I did not really see the results of the expulsion of John I, or what happened after. But others here did.

And many who even came after a point that I would have called unacceptable will look back on those times fondly because it was still different enough to be attractive and mask the things that they would later wonder about.

And what I wonder about is the consciences of those who know the truth and go on without a care.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

But we signed-up for Lee. At first in a smaller way. But eventually in a more substantial way. At some level, you can say he hijacked it. But it is also true that we voted him in with our feet. To borrow from someone's comments about another takeover, when he took our money, we did not complain because it was only money. When he took greater control in the late 70s, we blamed Max. When he began to enforce control on the operation of the local assemblies in the 80s, we blamed John I. When Anaheim began to dictate the number of songs for a meeting (typically one) and which one it would be, there was no one left to blame other than the source, but we were hooked and couldn't blame. I was leaving in 87, so I did not really see the results of the expulsion of John I, or what happened after. But others here did.

And what I wonder about is the consciences of those who know the truth and go on without a care.

Looking back at the events in the GLA, we can safely say that Titus Chu hid all of Lee's dark side from us with the intention of one day inheriting the mantle from Lee and "cleaning house."

Because of this, we never knew the truth about the Recovery. Recently I was told by one brother that "everybody was paid back" concerning Daystar investments. So, since the Daystar corruptions could not be completely sealed up, GLA were convinced that "Lee had come clean." Who persuaded GLA leaders? TC of course.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Looking back at the events in the GLA, we can safely say that Titus Chu hid all of Lee's dark side from us with the intention of one day inheriting the mantle from Lee and "cleaning house."

Because of this, we never knew the truth about the Recovery. Recently I was told by one brother that "everybody was paid back" concerning Daystar investments. So, since the Daystar corruptions could not be completely sealed up, GLA were convinced that "Lee had come clean." Who persuaded GLA leaders? TC of course.

Well, if they think they have all been paid back, then I know at least one that they missed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Well, if they think they have all been paid back, then I know at least one that they missed.

I would like to see an accounting of names and amounts which were never returned to the saints.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

Well, if they think they have all been paid back, then I know at least one that they missed.

The first time I heard about Daystar was in 1972? when Tim S. came back from Anaheim all excited about this RV. Fortunately at the time I was attending the University and didn't have any extra money to invest in some RV scheme. I later heard rumblings about it and then in Jane's book read more about it. It just shows us that this was all about following a man, his thoughts, his ideas, his ideologies etc. This was not about following Christ at all. We all followed WL down the rabbit hole. I don't even recall Jesus, Paul, Peter, John etc enlisting their followers to invest in some business they concocted. The only one who was involved in a money scheme was Judas.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would like to see an accounting of names and amounts which were never returned to the saints.

They are lucky that Daystar happened before the internet. Had it happened today, that information would have been made public without a doubt.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

The first time I heard about Daystar was in 1972? when Tim S. came back from Anaheim all excited about this RV. Fortunately at the time I was attending the University and didn't have any extra money to invest in some RV scheme. I later heard rumblings about it and then in Jane's book read more about it. It just shows us that this was all about following a man, his thoughts, his ideas, his ideologies etc. This was not about following Christ at all. We all followed WL down the rabbit hole. I don't even recall Jesus, Paul, Peter, John etc enlisting their followers to invest in some business they concocted. The only one who was involved in a money scheme was Judas.

Even Lee's own conscience went askew concerning money. He commented once about how could he one day (in the after life) face Née, who implicitly told him not to mix business with the ministry. Apparently he had no such concerns from the Lord within or the scriptures.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Even Lee's own conscience went askew concerning money. He commented once about how could he one day (in the after life) face Née, who implicitly told him not to mix business with the ministry. Apparently he had no such concerns from the Lord within or the scriptures.

I've been in biannual trainings, since the time Witness Lee passed away in 1997, in which speakers on the podium referred to what they will say to Witness Lee when they meet him again.

What would we say about the consciences of people who are concerned about meeting a man they call their "spiritual father," who was also the "Minister of the Age," who started a publishing company in California?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I've been in biannual trainings, since the time Witness Lee passed away in 1997, in which speakers on the podium referred to what they will say to Witness Lee when they meet him again.

What would we say about the consciences of people who are concerned about meeting a man they call their "spiritual father," who was also the "Minister of the Age," who started a publishing company in California?

It shows us that they place the words of Lee above the words of God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

They are lucky that Daystar happened before the internet. Had it happened today, that information would have been made public without a doubt.

The elder that ripped me off in Ft. Lauderdale lost a lot of money on Daystar. Which is probably why when asked by a brother that worked for him why he was dishonest in his business dealings he responded, "church is church and business is business." I think the Lord took his money.

Ha

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

The elder that ripped me off in Ft. Lauderdale lost a lot of money on Daystar. Which is probably why when asked by a brother that worked for him why he was dishonest in his business dealings he responded, "church is church and business is business." I think the Lord took his money.

Ha

This little quote belongs in the orthopraxy thread!! This is what is wrong with so many Christians (within and without the LRC). They think that Christianity and Christian living only happens inside the borders of the church property, or only outside when it is gospel preaching or "visitation."

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It shows us that they place the words of Lee above the words of God.

Agreed. But not only his words. Some apparently believe they will actually have to face Witness Lee again, after death.

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Some apparently believe they will actually have to face Witness Lee again, after death.

Asian culture, folks. When WL said this about WN, he said, "When I again meet WN, I am afraid that I won't have any face."