Important Announcement regarding the Alternative Views Subforum

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We cannot have Single Payer and also maintain state of the art care...
Those who cry for Single Payer never took an economics course. Single Payer demands the same lousy health care for all. Except for the well-connected, of course.

If you are referring to Medicare as "single payer" then I would reject the claim that with Medicare you can't maintain state of the art care and BTW I did take an economics course and worked on Wall street for years.

Medicare is the most efficient form of insurance costing a fraction of our current system. Improving efficiency is the underlying reason for the success of both the industrial revolution and technological revolution. It is based on very good economics theory.

Yes, there are some differences between what we do now and what we would do in a socialist system. However, consider several issues with our current model -- cures are not nearly as profitable as treatment. You might think that they would be highly motivated to cure HIV or Ebola, but you would be wrong. ED and Hair products are far more profitable. (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb...ayers-20110210) -- Drugs developed with government money are 2 1/2 times more likely than private funded research to be a high priority cure.

I would think that any reasonable person would want to develop new antibiotics yet they are not profitable either as they very quickly will be replaced by new antibiotics. (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....s-declaration/)

Generally speaking, in a capitalist model the consumer determines what the manufacturers make. But that is not true of the Pharmacies.

Merck's most profitable drugs --

1. Lipitor -- not a cure, something you take forever.

2. Lyrica -- again, not a cure, something you take forever.

3. Celebrex -- ditto

4. Viagra -- ditto

5. Effexor -- ditto

etc., etc.,

Since sequencing the human genome we have the technology and potential to develop amazing cures, but that is not nearly as profitable as therapies you must pay for continuously forever.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you are referring to Medicare as "single payer" then I would reject the claim that with Medicare you can't maintain state of the art care and BTW I did take an economics course and worked on Wall street for years.

Medicare is the most efficient form of insurance costing a fraction of our current system. Improving efficiency is the underlying reason for the success of both the industrial revolution and technological revolution. It is based on very good economics theory.

Yes, there are some differences between what we do now and what we would do in a socialist system. However, consider several issues with our current model -- cures are not nearly as profitable as treatment. You might think that they would be highly motivated to cure HIV or Ebola, but you would be wrong. ED and Hair products are far more profitable. (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb...ayers-20110210) -- Drugs developed with government money are 2 1/2 times more likely than private funded research to be a high priority cure.

I would think that any reasonable person would want to develop new antibiotics yet they are not profitable either as they very quickly will be replaced by new antibiotics. (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....s-declaration/)

Generally speaking, in a capitalist model the consumer determines what the manufacturers make. But that is not true of the Pharmacies.

Merck's most profitable drugs --

1. Lipitor -- not a cure, something you take forever.

2. Lyrica -- again, not a cure, something you take forever.

3. Celebrex -- ditto

4. Viagra -- ditto

5. Effexor -- ditto

etc., etc.,

Since sequencing the human genome we have the technology and potential to develop amazing cures, but that is not nearly as profitable as therapies you must pay for continuously forever.

You'd be an ignoramus if you thought the companies involved in healthcare cared more about human health than for profits.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You'd be an ignoramus if you thought the companies involved in healthcare cared more about human health than for profits.

I have long doubted that the entire medical profession really cared for human health. Sick people keep them rich.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

You'd be an ignoramus if you thought the companies involved in healthcare cared more about human health than for profits.

But the insurance industry does have a profit motive to keep us healthy. They have done a great job in making cars safer. I believe we could make guns safer too if we just required insurance like we do with cars.

However, they have not had the same impact with healthcare because there are many different companies. They cannot afford to invest in cures since every company would profit equally. However, if everyone were covered by Medicare, a govt run system, it would be a very nice fit with govt funded research. The two would go together.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But the insurance industry does have a profit motive to keep us healthy. They have done a great job in making cars safer. I believe we could make guns safer too if we just required insurance like we do with cars.

However, they have not had the same impact with healthcare because there are many different companies. They cannot afford to invest in cures since every company would profit equally. However, if everyone were covered by Medicare, a govt run system, it would be a very nice fit with govt funded research. The two would go together.

So let the insurance companies continue selling car insurance, home insurance, etc, insurance on all kinds of things, but get them out of the healthcare business.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So let the insurance companies continue selling car insurance, home insurance, etc, insurance on all kinds of things, but get them out of the healthcare business.

Let's return to economic theory, as Ohio suggested. Some products are elastic, others are inelastic. Viagra is elastic, a cure for ebola is inelastic. Capitalism works great for products which are elastic, but is terrible for products that are inelastic.

[ZNPaaneah]

Reince Priebus

James Comey

Corey Lewandowski

Chris Christie

Paul Manafort

Michael Flynn

Sam Nunberg

Sean Spicer

"This administration is running like a fine-tuned machine," Trump

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Reince Priebus

James Comey

Corey Lewandowski

Chris Christie

Paul Manafort

Michael Flynn

Sam Nunberg

Sean Spicer

"This administration is running like a fine-tuned machine," Trump

And they are all fighting over who can love Trump the most.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

And they are all fighting over who can love Trump the most.

IMHO the exit has just begun. I expect many lower level staff members to follow Priebus out the door.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

IMHO the exit has just begun. I expect many lower level staff members to follow Priebus out the door.

Scaramucci

[awareness]

God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un,’ evangelical adviser says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.59e8cde4fa3a

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un,’ evangelical adviser says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.59e8cde4fa3a

Awareness, who was more "Christ-like" before WWII Chamberlain or Churchill?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Awareness, who was more "Christ-like" before WWII Chamberlain or Churchill?

Were they trying to be Christ-like? Is Trump being Christ-like? Is Jeffress? And how would Jeffress know if God gave Trump authority? Does he have God's cell phone number? Jeffress is a clown, and shouldn't be allowed to speak for evangelicals. He just trying to be in the spotlight. And did it. It doesn't matter if he looks like an idiot, it increases his stock with his megachurch followers. Christian's like Jeffress give Christ a bad name, and make Christianity unattractive.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Awareness, who was more "Christ-like" before WWII Chamberlain or Churchill?

Isn't the question mostly irrelevant? I can make an argument for either based on different criteria. When it comes to being a "prince of peace," that would have to go to Chamberlain, even though he was obviously too foolish to really do his part well.

It seems that in the sense of "final analysis" in which we reach the end, and rewards and punishment is meted out, then it would have to be Churchill. He got out his war horses and set to fight from the beginning.

But we are not at the end, so neither is much of a representation of Christ. (Not saying that in this world we should not be willing to fight to survive. But does doing it make you like Christ?)

And therefore I cannot fathom the value of thinking of Christlikeness in terms of Chamberlain and Churchill — leaders juxtaposed to war with one of the more insane leaders of the 20th century (maybe of all time).

[ZNPaaneah]

Well North Korea has really got us scared now, they are threatening to attack Guam.

This is like two little Eric Cartman's threatening to fight each other trying to puff up their chests more and more.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un,’ evangelical adviser says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.59e8cde4fa3a

He said that many pacifist Christians will cite Romans 12, which says, “Do not repay evil for evil,” but Jeffress says that the passage is referring to Christians, not to the government.


North Korea views America as evil for dropping more bombs and napalm on it than in whole of WW2. So according to Jeffress NK would be justified for nuking Guam.

All Trump has to do is apologize for America's past wrongs I think, as American Presidents have done before.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

He said that many pacifist Christians will cite Romans 12, which says, “Do not repay evil for evil,” but Jeffress says that the passage is referring to Christians, not to the government.


North Korea views America as evil for dropping more bombs and napalm on it than in whole of WW2. So according to Jeffress NK would be justified for nuking Guam.

All Trump has to do is apologize for America's past wrongs I think, as American Presidents have done before.

Amen Evan ... amen.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

He said that many pacifist Christians will cite Romans 12, which says, “Do not repay evil for evil,” but Jeffress says that the passage is referring to Christians, not to the government.


North Korea views America as evil for dropping more bombs and napalm on it than in whole of WW2. So according to Jeffress NK would be justified for nuking Guam.

All Trump has to do is apologize for America's past wrongs I think, as American Presidents have done before.

Ignoring what the right thing to do would be for a second, how does Trump vilify Obama for his apology and then go and do the same thing?

50% of Americans will not vote for Trump, this apology wouldn't mollify them, instead they would jump on the hypocrisy. As for the 50% that might vote for him they would be doubly offended by the apology.

In short political suicide.

[ZNPaaneah]

Donald Trump has been taking a lot of heat for his belated condemnation of White supremacists and Neo Nazis. But has anyone considered that Trump is new at this and might not be good at condemning others?

Now if Hillary Clinton had been driving the car that would have been a different story.

[Ohio]

Referring to the clashes in Charlottesville, VA last weekend. Once again MSM has distorted the story. From what I understand, far right groups had permits to protest, and while I disagree with their message, I thought the 1st Amendment provided them the right to speak. Antifa anarchists on the left then showed up with force to prevent this. So who really is responsible for the violence?

Since when is it right in America to use violence to silence others?

The Media then used the event to attack Trump. So predictable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Donald Trump has been taking a lot of heat for his belated condemnation of White supremacists and Neo Nazis. But has anyone considered that Trump is new at this and might not be good at condemning others?

Now if Hillary Clinton had been driving the car that would have been a different story.

Two extreme sides were fighting. Trump condemned all violence.

What's the difference between white supremacy and white hate? Both are wrong.

But the media has long condoned anarchy on the left while rightly condemning white supremacy. Shouldn't the media fairly condemn all violence which threatens our 1st Amendment freedoms?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Two extreme sides were fighting. Trump condemned all violence.

What's the difference between white supremacy and white hate? Both are wrong.

But the media has long condoned anarchy on the left while rightly condemning white supremacy. Shouldn't the media fairly condemn all violence which threatens our 1st Amendment freedoms?

Right. How dare that young woman get in the way of your bro's car. That was just her "white hate."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Referring to the clashes in Charlottesville, VA last weekend. Once again MSM has distorted the story. From what I understand, far right groups had permits to protest, and while I disagree with their message, I thought the 1st Amendment provided them the right to speak. Antifa anarchists on the left then showed up with force to prevent this. So who really is responsible for the violence?

Since when is it right in America to use violence to silence others?

The Media then used the event to attack Trump. So predictable.

I have not been able to get a full story on what prompted the attack with the car. It seemed that the permits for the rally were cancelled but I can't verify that regardless of how much you watch of this.

I agree that the "freedom of speech" provision was put in so that we don't get a pressure cooker that explodes. I also agree that it is very hypocritical of the anti rally protesters who demanded freedom of speech to get their messages across to then try and deny others the same right. I also agree that the removal of a landmark is viewed as a sin in the OT. I feel it is a perverse political correctness that demands the removal of a Robert E Lee statue.

That said there is no justification for what this man did. Why didn't those involved in this rally come out and condemn him vehemently making it clear they did not condone or have anything to do with what he did?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have not been able to get a full story on what prompted the attack with the car. It seemed that the permits for the rally were cancelled but I can't verify that regardless of how much you watch of this.

I did hear that. Apparently the authorities canceled the protests, and revoked their permits, when they realized that they could not maintain law and order.

I agree that the "freedom of speech" provision was put in so that we don't get a pressure cooker that explodes. I also agree that it is very hypocritical of the anti rally protesters who demanded freedom of speech to get their messages across to then try and deny others the same right. I also agree that the removal of a landmark is viewed as a sin in the OT. I feel it is a perverse political correctness that demands the removal of a Robert E Lee statue.

As long as the anarchists are so-called politically correct, their violence has been allowed to go on unchecked. That is scary indeed. I watched them tear down another statue on the news. The media is now applauding vandalism when it suits their agenda, hence we are entering a time of a one-sided justice system.

That said there is no justification for what this man did.

Totally agree.

Why didn't those involved in this rally come out and condemn him vehemently making it clear they did not condone or have anything to do with what he did?

People were fighting in the streets. Numerous people were hurt. Leaders from both sides are silent. The event is now being portrayed as domestic terrorism, with a car crashing into a crowd of people. It seemed more like a war zone, apart from the car driven into the crowd.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. How dare that young woman get in the way of your bro's car. That was just her "white hate."

zeek, I thought you were a compassionate shrink who cared for the mentally ill...

... reports emerged Monday that James Alex Fields, Jr., the 20-year-old who plowed his car into a left-wing counter-demonstration in Charlottesville, killing one and injuring several others, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia as a boy and had been given antipsychotic drugs.

The media has used this event to openly condemn Trump, Republicans, conservatives, etc. but now we learn that this guy was mentally ill. If you have never loved anyone with schizophrenic psychosis, you have no idea what they live with. This is neither domestic terrorism nor white hate, this is one sick guy who should never be driving in the first place.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is neither domestic terrorism nor white hate, this is one sick guy who should never be driving in the first place.

Yeah, he should have used his 2nd amendment rights, like those on the right, and used a gun ... not a car. Cuz history tells us that crazies can buy guns in America ... thanks to Republicans and conservatives.

And it's Trump's friendly association with these right extremists, and support of them, that condemns Trump ... not the fake news.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

zeek, I thought you were a compassionate shrink who cared for the mentally ill...The media has used this event to openly condemn Trump, Republicans, conservatives, etc. but now we learn that this guy was mentally ill. If you have never loved anyone with schizophrenic psychosis, you have no idea what they live with. This is neither domestic terrorism nor white hate, this is one sick guy who should never be driving in the first place.

Thank you for sharing your psychiatric opinion, Dr. Ohio. Kinda rushing to judgment aren't you? Does that help dispel your cognitive dissonance?

Clearly Dr. Ohio's sympathies lie with the killer not the 32 year old woman, Heather Heyer of Charlottesville that he wantonly killed. She must have been one of those liberal trouble-makers. And she had the audacity of being female! The hussie got what she deserved for being out on the street, right Dr. Ohio?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, he should have used his 2nd amendment rights, like those on the right, and used a gun ... not a car. Cuz history tells us that crazies can buy guns in America ... thanks to Republicans and conservatives.

And it's Trump's friendly association with these right extremists, and support of them, that condemns Trump ... not the fake news.

Absolutely, it's all Trump's fault. (Before he came along, however, it was all Bush's fault.)

Since you care nothing for mental health problems, did you see this?

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) reports that Jason Kessler, the organizer of last Saturday’s white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, is rumored to be a former Occupy Wall Street activist and supporter of Barack Obama.

Some anarchists just can't tell their left from their right.

But who cares, it's all Trump's fault, because our Moderator says so!

[zeek]

It's always good for a chuckle when the Birther-In-Chief calls someone a "grandstander".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[B]
But who cares, it's all Trump's fault, because our Moderator says so!

C'mon bro Ohio. You're constructing a straw man me. I don't even need to go into it. It's clear for all to see.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, he should have used his 2nd amendment rights, like those on the right, and used a gun ... not a car. Cuz history tells us that crazies can buy guns in America ... thanks to Republicans and conservatives.

And it's Trump's friendly association with these right extremists, and support of them, that condemns Trump ... not the fake news.

Truly amazing how you can blame Trump and guns for last weekend's violence.

But it's all so very clear for all to see.

Look here folks -- see the straw man!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Truly amazing how you can blame Trump and guns for last weekend's violence.

But it's all so very clear for all to see.

Look here folks -- see the straw man!

Straw men on "many sides...many sides."

[zeek]

"Trump Warns Removing Confederate Statues Could Be Slippery Slope To Eliminating Racism Entirely!"

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is neither domestic terrorism nor white hate, this is one sick guy who should never be driving in the first place.

But he's allowed to own a gun, right?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

But he's allowed to own a gun, right?

No, not at all!

He was diagnosed a psychotic schizophrenic, he cannot own a gun. We are a nation of laws which protect our citizens!

Neither should he be allowed to drive.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, not at all!

He was diagnosed a psychotic schizophrenic, he cannot own a gun. We are a nation of laws which protect our citizens!

Neither should he be allowed to drive.

Our brother Ohio is acting like the guy he's been supporting up to now : TRUMP.

“In some ways, Trump would rather have people calling him racist than say he backed down the minute he was wrong,” one adviser to the White House said on Wednesday about Charlottesville. “This may turn into the biggest mess of his presidency because he is stubborn and doesn't realize how bad this is getting.”

From Politico.
‘He is stubborn and doesn't realize how bad this is getting’
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...r-chaos-241721

[zeek]

Now Bannon. Who will be next?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Now Bannon. Who will be next?

Trump's presidency as we know it is 'OVER' says Steve Bannon
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ught-over.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump's presidency as we know it is 'OVER' says Steve Bannon
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ught-over.html

What does that mean? What on Earth does "Trump's presidency as we have never known it" mean? Does Bannon have classified information about a nuclear war with NK? Terror threats from ISIS?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What does that mean? What on Earth does "Trump's presidency as we have never known it" mean? Does Bannon have classified information about a nuclear war with NK? Terror threats from ISIS?

It means that Bannon saw himself as Trump's puppet-master. Now that he is no longer in Trump's administration, it is effectively over as far as he is concerned.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

It means that Bannon saw himself as Trump's puppet-master. Now that he is no longer in Trump's administration, it is effectively over as far as he is concerned.

But without the puppet master what will happen? The first 6 months have been traumatic enough, is it going to get worse? Is Bannon taking credit for all the previous chaos?

[awareness]

When your alumni are turning their depolmats back in you have you make up something to protect your reputation and income :

"Trump had 'inside information' on the Charlottesville crowd Jerry Falwell Jr suggests defending the president for saying there were 'very fine people on both sides'"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-crowd.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

When your alumni are turning their depolmats back in you have you make up something to protect your reputation and income :

"Trump had 'inside information' on the Charlottesville crowd Jerry Falwell Jr suggests defending the president for saying there were 'very fine people on both sides'"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-crowd.html

Just to clarify, a "depolmat" is a pole cat who has been killed, skinned and then the skin is used as a mat.

An unorthodox but effective way to drain the swamp of pole cats.

[TLFisher]

Something I've considering is the similarities between Antifa and LSM leadership.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Terry

Something I've considering is the similarities between Antifa and LSM leadership.

Oh do tell us what those are!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Something I've considering is the similarities between Antifa and LSM leadership.

I'm sitting on the edge of my seat ...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Something I've considering is the similarities between Antifa and LSM leadership.

Finally, an intelligent discussion.

Andrew Young (civil rights leader) gave a very insightful interview on this subject. These "white supremacists" (0.003% of US population) represent dirt poor white's from the rural South. This isn't a white/black issue, its a poverty issue.

As the world moves from a national economy to a world economy there will be winners and losers, these are the losers (who are white).

Because we have policies that are racist, like affirmative action, instead of need based, it stands to reason that there will be poor whites who feel dissed.

I was very angry in this last election that we had two highly electable people (John Kasich and Bernie Sanders) and yet each party didn't nominate them, they basically gave the voters the middle finger and gave us a hobson choice.

So I took no horse at all and decided I would learn from the collective wisdom of millions of people how to respond to this dilemma.

What the voters did was to give the middle finger back to the authorities. I don't see Trump as a terrible inept president, I see him as the voters in the US giving Washington elites the middle finger.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Finally, an intelligent discussion.

Andrew Young (civil rights leader) gave a very insightful interview on this subject. These "white supremacists" (0.003% of US population) represent dirt poor white's from the rural South. This isn't a white/black issue, its a poverty issue. As the world moves from a national economy to a world economy there will be winners and losers, these are the losers (who are white).

This quote provides insufficient information with which to evaluate its claims. In what context [when? where? source? ] did Young make alleged statement?

Because we have policies that are racist, like affirmative action, instead of need based, it stands to reason that there will be poor whites who feel dissed.

Affirmative action is problematic. But, what's the alternative? Acceptance of the racial disparity of the status quo? Regressing to the Jim Crow era when Trump thinks things were "great?"

I was very angry in this last election that we had two highly electable people (John Kasich and Bernie Sanders) and yet each party didn't nominate them, they basically gave the voters the middle finger and gave us a hobson choice. So I took no horse at all and decided I would learn from the collective wisdom of millions of people how to respond to this dilemma.

How's that working for you?

What the voters did was to give the middle finger back to the authorities. I don't see Trump as a terrible inept president, I see him as the voters in the US giving Washington elites the middle finger.

No, Trump's inept too.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Affirmative action is problematic. But, what's the alternative? Acceptance of the racial disparity of the status quo? Regressing to the Jim Crow era when Trump thinks things were "great?"

Since we all realize that affirmative action is problematic, perhaps the best choice in a bad situation we should be cognizant of the fact that there will be some poor whites that feel unfairly treated.

No, I don't think regressing to Jim Crow era is a better alternative, what I do think would have been a lot better would have been to not go to Iraq and spend 6 trillion dollars on a bogus war fighting make believe terrorists until we have created real terrorists who really do want to kill us. This is not hindsight BS, I said this at the time of 911 and virtually got fired for it.

If the US had put 5 of those 6 trillion dollars into building up the renewable energy market in the US we would be a leader in the field. To power the entire US would cost about $10 trillion. If the US used the $5 trillion as a 50% incentive for individuals and businesses to install solar we could have completely converted to solar. This would have a positive impact on health, on climate change, on our role as a global leader and on peace. We could have still spent $1 trillion to kill Osama Bin Laden to satisfy all those hokey's that still think he masterminded 911.

But unlike the $6 trillion we sunk in Afghanistan and Iraq we would not have created the monster ISIS, we would not have lost our role as a world leader, and the money we invested would pay dividends -- a thriving local economy in research, development and manufacture of solar. All those people working in these good jobs would pay tax. It would be an investment in the future of the US paying a good dividend and who knows, maybe we would have put some of these factories in the towns of these hillbilly hicks with the confederate flags and they would not have to be so hateful today.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

This quote provides insufficient information with which to evaluate its claims. In what context [when? where? source? ] did Young make alleged statement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQm5HCzR2s

6 minutes

In a nutshell he is reiterating what Ohio has been telling you for six months. The amount of poor people left behind and ignored by the elites in Washington has grown to the point that you can actually hear their voices in national elections. If you ignore it now, the only other option is revolt.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQm5HCzR2s

6 minutes

In a nutshell he is reiterating what Ohio has been telling you for six months. The amount of poor people left behind and ignored by the elites in Washington has grown to the point that you can actually hear their voices in national elections. If you ignore it now, the only other option is revolt.

Noah Chomsky is also weighing in.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/noam-chom...110600596.html

[awareness]

I don't believe the alt-right, et al, are made up of disenfranchised poor white people. Richard Spencer certainly isn't. And assault rifles and military garb isn't cheap.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Since we all realize that affirmative action is problematic, perhaps the best choice in a bad situation we should be cognizant of the fact that there will be some poor whites that feel unfairly treated.

No, I don't think regressing to Jim Crow era is a better alternative, what I do think would have been a lot better would have been to not go to Iraq and spend 6 trillion dollars on a bogus war fighting make believe terrorists until we have created real terrorists who really do want to kill us. This is not hindsight BS, I said this at the time of 911 and virtually got fired for it.

If the US had put 5 of those 6 trillion dollars into building up the renewable energy market in the US we would be a leader in the field. To power the entire US would cost about $10 trillion. If the US used the $5 trillion as a 50% incentive for individuals and businesses to install solar we could have completely converted to solar. This would have a positive impact on health, on climate change, on our role as a global leader and on peace. We could have still spent $1 trillion to kill Osama Bin Laden to satisfy all those hokey's that still think he masterminded 911.

But unlike the $6 trillion we sunk in Afghanistan and Iraq we would not have created the monster ISIS, we would not have lost our role as a world leader, and the money we invested would pay dividends -- a thriving local economy in research, development and manufacture of solar. All those people working in these good jobs would pay tax. It would be an investment in the future of the US paying a good dividend and who knows, maybe we would have put some of these factories in the towns of these hillbilly hicks with the confederate flags and they would not have to be so hateful today.

Which is a long way of saying that your alternative to affirmative action is to do nothing.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQm5HCzR2s

6 minutes

In a nutshell he is reiterating what Ohio has been telling you for six months. The amount of poor people left behind and ignored by the elites in Washington has grown to the point that you can actually hear their voices in national elections. If you ignore it now, the only other option is revolt.

Who is he referring to as "KKK types"? How does he know they are "the poorest of the poor?" If poverty justifies terrorism, I guess we should sympathize with the poor ISIS terrorists instead of killing them. Right?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Noam Chomsky is also weighing in.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/noam-chom...110600596.html

Right, nonviolent resistance is more than twice as effective as the violent kind. https://www.amazon.com/Why-Civil-Res...nt+Conflict%22

[zeek]

Instead of working at unifying the country like a president should, Trump continued to fan the flames of racism at his rally yesterday. He misquoted himself, leaving out the words that outraged so many.

Trump pretended his press conference defending the "fine" white supremacists at Charlottesville never happened and blamed the media for the furor he created. He's much stronger against the media than against KKK and Nazi terrorists.

The POTUS hinted that he might pardon Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio who was found in criminal contempt for racial profiling. He threatened to shut down the government if his border wall isn't built.

Trump lamented the treatment of CNN contributor Jeffrey Lord who was fired for tweeting out the Nazi phrase, “Sieg Heil". It's clear that his sympathies are with the racists because he is one. He's encouraging them! So, no doubt, we will see their numbers and violence grow.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right, nonviolent resistance is more than twice as effective as the violent kind. https://www.amazon.com/Why-Civil-Res...nt+Conflict%22

violent protests are not just less effective they are counter productive.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Who is he referring to as "KKK types"? How does he know they are "the poorest of the poor?" If poverty justifies terrorism, I guess we should sympathize with the poor ISIS terrorists instead of killing them. Right?

ISIS was created by the US going into Iraq, which had nothing to do with 911, obliterating the country and then in the midst of the chaos firing all of the former military who worked with and were trained by Iraq and then having our military leave the country. The man who made the decision to fire all of the Iraqi trained military was a novice to the region and knew nothing of nation building. The decision to pull our military out was a political decision made by Obama because of a campaign promise.

As a result the country was in chaos, electricity, water, and garbage were infrequent and who would you blame if you lived there? Of course the US was the culprit.

Killing ISIS is not the solution anymore than killing Saddam was, or killing Osama was, etc. We have been killing these terrorists non stop for 16 years, where has it gotten us?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Instead of working at unifying the country like a president should, Trump continued to fan the flames of racism at his rally yesterday. He misquoted himself, leaving out the words that outraged so many.

Trump pretended his press conference defending the "fine" white supremacists at Charlottesville never happened and blamed the media for the furor he created. He's much stronger against the media than against KKK and Nazi terrorists.

The POTUS hinted that he might pardon Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio who was found in criminal contempt for racial profiling. He threatened to shut down the government if his border wall isn't built.

Trump lamented the treatment of CNN contributor Jeffrey Lord who was fired for tweeting out the Nazi phrase, “Sieg Heil". It's clear that his sympathies are with the racists because he is one. He's encouraging them! So, no doubt, we will see their numbers and violence grow.

Have you ever considered that if a baby human were raised by Orangutans and then was later brought back to human civilization he could be a translator and reveal all of the orangutan secrets to us? All he would need would be a twitter account. (Rick Stromoski)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

ISIS was created by the US going into Iraq, which had nothing to do with 911, obliterating the country and then in the midst of the chaos firing all of the former military who worked with and were trained by Iraq and then having our military leave the country. The man who made the decision to fire all of the Iraqi trained military was a novice to the region and knew nothing of nation building. The decision to pull our military out was a political decision made by Obama because of a campaign promise.

As a result the country was in chaos, electricity, water, and garbage were infrequent and who would you blame if you lived there? Of course the US was the culprit.

Killing ISIS is not the solution anymore than killing Saddam was, or killing Osama was, etc. We have been killing these terrorists non stop for 16 years, where has it gotten us?

You missed the point we were discussing and went off on a tangent.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

You missed the point we were discussing and went off on a tangent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b090964299595b

The people who join these groups tend to be dim witted, though it is expressed in kinder terms in the article, they are suicidal and/or mentally unstable, usually associated with childhood abuse and/or neglect. Add to this they fear losing their place in society.

Now I summed this all up to mean poor. I suppose that is an unfair leap lacking in the subtle nuance.

The pseudo scientific junk and quasi religious junk is merely window dressing.

Now can you see how our intervention in Iraq could result in all of the dim witted in that country becoming radicalized?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Instead of working at unifying the country like a president should, Trump continued to fan the flames of racism at his rally yesterday. He misquoted himself, leaving out the words that outraged so many.

Trump pretended his press conference defending the "fine" white supremacists at Charlottesville never happened and blamed the media for the furor he created. He's much stronger against the media than against KKK and Nazi terrorists.

The POTUS hinted that he might pardon Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio who was found in criminal contempt for racial profiling. He threatened to shut down the government if his border wall isn't built.

Trump lamented the treatment of CNN contributor Jeffrey Lord who was fired for tweeting out the Nazi phrase, “Sieg Heil". It's clear that his sympathies are with the racists because he is one. He's encouraging them! So, no doubt, we will see their numbers and violence grow.

German magazine shows President Trump doing a Nazi salute while draped in an American flag after his response to Charlottesville

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Finally, an intelligent discussion.

Andrew Young (civil rights leader) gave a very insightful interview on this subject. These "white supremacists" (0.003% of US population) represent dirt poor white's from the rural South. This isn't a white/black issue, its a poverty issue.

As the world moves from a national economy to a world economy there will be winners and losers, these are the losers (who are white).

Because we have policies that are racist, like affirmative action, instead of need based, it stands to reason that there will be poor whites who feel dissed.

I was very angry in this last election that we had two highly electable people (John Kasich and Bernie Sanders) and yet each party didn't nominate them, they basically gave the voters the middle finger and gave us a hobson choice.

So I took no horse at all and decided I would learn from the collective wisdom of millions of people how to respond to this dilemma.

What the voters did was to give the middle finger back to the authorities. I don't see Trump as a terrible inept president, I see him as the voters in the US giving Washington elites the middle finger.

I think it's a mistake to not consider Trump as one of the Washington elites. Granted, he is not a political elite, but he is an elite, a business elite. What evil things the political elite do with politics, Trump does with money. Trump is a Washington elite, in so many ways, even more than those so-called "Washington elites".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by zeek

Oh do tell us what those are!

Zeek, I'm taking the time to get around to it. Specifically calling out items from the antifa manual I have seen as LSM leadership traits.
1. Ever idea critical of our movement or our way of thinking must be condemned
2. When all else fails, compare someone to Hitler.
3. Belittle them......
4. It's important to gain control of the media through any means necessary.
5. If you are seeking positions of power in the media, be sure to obfuscate and hide your true intentions on the various social media platform. Better to remain a mystery and wield massive power than blatantly shouting your viewpoints from the hilltops.
6. Use social media as a baton to slap down anyone who holds fascist viewpoints. Call them racist, homophobic, misogynistic. Create an echo chamber around you.
7. Control the flow of information, you control how information is received.
8. Threaten those who dare to speak up against our agenda
9. Either you are for us or against us.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

German magazine shows President Trump doing a Nazi salute while draped in an American flag after his response to Charlottesville

That's no way to treat someone with a mental health issue.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Terry

Zeek, I'm taking the time to get around to it. Specifically calling out items from the antifa manual I have seen as LSM leadership traits.
1. Ever idea critical of our movement or our way of thinking must be condemned
2. When all else fails, compare someone to Hitler.
3. Belittle them......
4. It's important to gain control of the media through any means necessary.
5. If you are seeking positions of power in the media, be sure to obfuscate and hide your true intentions on the various social media platform. Better to remain a mystery and wield massive power than blatantly shouting your viewpoints from the hilltops.
6. Use social media as a baton to slap down anyone who holds fascist viewpoints. Call them racist, homophobic, misogynistic. Create an echo chamber around you.
7. Control the flow of information, you control how information is received.
8. Threaten those who dare to speak up against our agenda
9. Either you are for us or against us.

Are you referring to "Antifa: The Antifascist Handbook" by Mark Bray? I haven't read it. Does the book literally make those points or is that your interpretation?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Zeek, I'm taking the time to get around to it. Specifically calling out items from the antifa manual I have seen as LSM leadership traits.
1. Ever idea critical of our movement or our way of thinking must be condemned
2. When all else fails, compare someone to Hitler.
3. Belittle them......
4. It's important to gain control of the media through any means necessary.
5. If you are seeking positions of power in the media, be sure to obfuscate and hide your true intentions on the various social media platform. Better to remain a mystery and wield massive power than blatantly shouting your viewpoints from the hilltops.
6. Use social media as a baton to slap down anyone who holds fascist viewpoints. Call them racist, homophobic, misogynistic. Create an echo chamber around you.
7. Control the flow of information, you control how information is received.
8. Threaten those who dare to speak up against our agenda
9. Either you are for us or against us.

It's obvious that antifa has gone too far. Hating hate is still hate.

But I support their opposition to white supremacy, the KKK, and the neo-Nazis.

[OBW]

This discussion is not as simple as "whites don't hate blacks" or "do." But it reminds me of a song by a satirical singer (also MIT professor for many years) back in the 60s. It starts with a monologue and is followed by the song's lyrics. I'm sure that it will offend someone, but the only ones he intended to offend were the bigots.

One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week. This is just one of many such weeks honoring various worthy causes. One of my favorites is National Make-fun-of-the-handicapped Week which Frank Fontaine and Jerry Lewis are in charge of as you know. During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood. This year, for example, on the first day of the week, Malcolm X was killed . . . which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is.

I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that!

Here's a song about National Brotherhood Week.

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

[zeek]

Beware of the oligarchs Western as well as Eastern who despise democracy and have made a dirty word of liberalism.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Beware of the oligarchs Western as well as Eastern who despise democracy and have made a dirty word of liberalism.

I've also noticed that antifa is being turned into a dirty word. And those doing it don't seem to be calling the KKK, neo-Nazies, white supremacists, et al, a dirty word. Is it because they call themselves Unite the Right and alt-right, and it's the right turning antifa into a dirty word?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

An ad hominem argument is a fallacy unless it can be shown that the character of the proposer is relevant to the truth of his/her proposition. Even a pathological liar may correctly observe that the sky is blue. So, it doesn't necessarily follow that if Nee transgressed then his propositions regarding politics are false. If you wish to refute Nee's points, you can't just attack Nee. You actually have to show how they are false.

The recent hurricanes have underscored the fundamental weakness in the political process.

During Hurricane Harvey it was depicted as "unprecedented" to have a storm drop that much rain. Harvey dropped 50 inches, the previous record in the continental US was 49 inches. So although it was record setting it was hardly "unprecedented". Add to this the fact that scientists have been warning that bigger storms are a consequence of climate change and I would say that this was "precedented", they were warned, and they should have expected that with the Gulf 2 degrees warmer than usual we would get this.

So then, why were so many homes caught in the flood zone? You can be sure the insurance companies weren't caught off guard, that is why 80-85% of those flooded in Harvey and Irma didn't have flood insurance.

Here is the problem for politicians -- if they tell people they can't build in certain areas they take them to court and argue they have freedoms, rights, etc. Insurance companies don't care because they make the flood insurance prohibitively expensive so that no one has it. The city absolves itself by creating maps of flood zones and then telling people "buyer beware" knowing full well that the majority of Americans have no idea how to "beware". Primarily the poor suffer as the rich are not going to go without flood insurance and if it is too expensive they'll get a property elsewhere.

So then the politicians take the money from the real estate developers for their campaign, absolve themselves by claiming people have the liberty to do as they please. Developers don't care. The risk of the storms hitting in any six month period is much smaller than the risk of it hitting over 20 or 30 years (life of a mortgage). Insurance companies don't care. This leaves banks. But, flood damage rarely destroys 100% of the value. A $300,000 house is generally a third land value and two thirds house. If the house loses a roof that can be $50,000 or less. Flood damage can add to this. But even if the damage is $100,000 the bank might not lose anything. The only real losers are the home owners who cannot afford to fix the damage, declare bankruptcy and lose everything.

This happened in Katrina, it happened in Harvey, and I expect it happened in Irma. Prior to Irma I heard that Florida had "prepared for hurricanes". Idiotic. You cannot prepare for a category 4 or 5. You can "prepare" for a Cat 1 or 2, but unless you can guarantee you won't be hit by a 4 or 5 you aren't prepared. Once again, all the politicians do is take the developers money to run their campaigns and then put a positive spin on things when the disasters do hit.

These disasters have been predicted, often 20 years before the fact. There is no "real" preparation or response except for a few exceptions. I read of one town along the Mississippi, they were told that they needed to move to higher ground and they did. They move the entire town to an area 200 feet higher and have not been flooded since.

So then, I think Christians should be aware of the weakness and ineffectiveness of politicians. That doesn't mean that government service is unchristian or that some jobs are more sanctified than others, a position that was pushed in the LRC. But if you are going to go into it you should not be ignorant of what is involved and the bargains that have to be made.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This happened in Katrina, it happened in Harvey, and I expect it happened in Irma. Prior to Irma I heard that Florida had "prepared for hurricanes". Idiotic. You cannot prepare for a category 4 or 5. You can "prepare" for a Cat 1 or 2, but unless you can guarantee you won't be hit by a 4 or 5 you aren't prepared. Once again, all the politicians do is take the developers money to run their campaigns and then put a positive spin on things when the disasters do hit.

These disasters have been predicted, often 20 years before the fact. There is no "real" preparation or response except for a few exceptions. I read of one town along the Mississippi, they were told that they needed to move to higher ground and they did. They move the entire town to an area 200 feet higher and have not been flooded since.

Hurricane proof? I saw some of the damage from Irma. Houses never built on stilts. Trailer homes set on cinder blocks. They should read the scripture about building on sinking sand.

These storms are "unprecedented" not because they have never happened before, but because we now have more people living on the shoreline than ever before. You can thank National Flood Insurance programs for that. Hurricane Donna was worse than Irma, yet in 1960 there were less than 5 Million people in Florida. Funny thing is that Donna occurred while the early climate change crowd were crying "ice age."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hurricane proof? I saw some of the damage from Irma. Houses never built on stilts. Trailer homes set on cinder blocks. They should read the scripture about building on sinking sand.

These storms are "unprecedented" not because they have never happened before, but because we now have more people living on the shoreline than ever before. You can thank National Flood Insurance programs for that. Hurricane Donna was worse than Irma, yet in 1960 there were less than 5 Million people in Florida. Funny thing is that Donna occurred while the early climate change crowd were crying "ice age."

All of those houses are built where any geologist could tell you clearly you were in danger in the event of a hurricane, etc. However, people assume that if the govt allows the house to be built then it must be safe. The reality is the government is allowing people to gamble. You can gamble with your life savings. They just didn't know that this is what the deal was.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

All of those houses are built where any geologist could tell you clearly you were in danger in the event of a hurricane, etc. However, people assume that if the govt allows the house to be built then it must be safe. The reality is the government is allowing people to gamble. You can gamble with your life savings. They just didn't know that this is what the deal was.

Talking about buildings, did you hear about that new skyscraper in San Francisco built on sinking sand? Called the Millennial Building, they decided not to build it on bedrock. They should have hired a decent geologist named ZNP. What a boondoggle! The thing is leaning too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You can thank National Flood Insurance programs for that.

Trump couldn't insure his Mar a Lago, and his Jupiter Fl resorts, cuz no insurance company would insure a known flood zone.

So he had to sign up with the FEMA insurance program. That program is in debt to the fed gov'ment to the tune of 1.5 billion, and if it were a private large insurance company it would be in receivership long ago.

Funny thing is, the FEMA insurance program was being discontinued (for obvious reasons) but Trump sign legislation to extend it. Trump will always take care of Trump, first and foremost, damn the debt.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump couldn't insure his Mar a Lago, and his Jupiter Fl resorts, cuz no insurance company would insure a known flood zone.

So he had to sign up with the FEMA insurance program. That program is in debt to the fed gov'ment to the tune of 1.5 billion, and if it were a private large insurance company it would be in receivership long ago.

Funny thing is, the FEMA insurance program was being discontinued (for obvious reasons) but Trump sign legislation to extend it. Trump will always take care of Trump, first and foremost, damn the debt.

Now you know why he wanted to be president. I'm sure he realized the danger to his resort long before running.

[zeek]

At the UN yesterday Trump showed once again that the biggest threat to the world today is Trump himself.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have long doubted that the entire medical profession really cared for human health. Sick people keep them rich.

I guess they should just be in debt up to their eyeballs to pay for all the years of education required to be allowed to practice medicine and just give their services away for less than required to cover their costs.

Besides, in today's litigious society, since there is always a significant risk of lawsuit, there is a legitimate need to earn more to encourage them to take the risk of losing it all.

And when you doubt the care for human health, the reason that many doctors have such terrible "bedside manner" is that they are very concerned with treating/curing human health issues, but not always so good at dealing with other aspects of the person, or being "personable." They are not being called to the vocation of pastor/shepherd. They are highly-skilled technicians. Not entertainers or social workers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I guess they should just be in debt up to their eyeballs to pay for all the years of education required to be allowed to practice medicine and just give their services away for less than required to cover their costs.

Besides, in today's litigious society, since there is always a significant risk of lawsuit, there is a legitimate need to earn more to encourage them to take the risk of losing it all.

And when you doubt the care for human health, the reason that many doctors have such terrible "bedside manner" is that they are very concerned with treating/curing human health issues, but not always so good at dealing with other aspects of the person, or being "personable." They are not being called to the vocation of pastor/shepherd. They are highly-skilled technicians. Not entertainers or social workers.

Since the biggest concern with healthcare is the cost it seems reasonable that cutting cost through efficiency is a valid and perhaps desirable strategy. It is well proven that Medicare is the most efficient system out there and would save billions of dollars. I see no reason why a single payer system would have to result in doctors being in debt up to their eyeballs. Likewise, you can always pay for a doctor out of pocket, so Medicare does not restrict the free market capitalism of medicine.

I was in the hospital in England and it was a much better experience than any I have had in the US. I also was in the hospital in Taiwan and that experience was also excellent. None of these doctors appeared destitute.

Also, there is a valid interest in having every person covered with insurance. First, the hospitals are forced to provide a minimum care regardless and this burden should be born by all, not foisted onto a few poor hospitals. Second, who wants someone with TB or some other communicable disease living on buses and subways because they can't afford medical care?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

At the UN yesterday Trump showed once again that the biggest threat to the world today is Trump himself.

Well let's see if Israel announces the rebuilding of the temple now that they have Trump in their corner.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I guess they should just be in debt up to their eyeballs to pay for all the years of education required to be allowed to practice medicine and just give their services away for less than required to cover their costs.

Besides, in today's litigious society, since there is always a significant risk of lawsuit, there is a legitimate need to earn more to encourage them to take the risk of losing it all.

And when you doubt the care for human health, the reason that many doctors have such terrible "bedside manner" is that they are very concerned with treating/curing human health issues, but not always so good at dealing with other aspects of the person, or being "personable." They are not being called to the vocation of pastor/shepherd. They are highly-skilled technicians. Not entertainers or social workers.

Doctors make up a small percentage of the health profession.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

At the UN yesterday Trump showed once again that the biggest threat to the world today is Trump himself.

I no longer question your intelligence.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well let's see if Israel announces the rebuilding of the temple now that they have Trump in their corner.

And the rest of the world has Jared?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And the rest of the world has Jared?

1. Jared Kushner is responsible for negotiating peace in the Middle East.

2. Jared Kushner is responsible for solving America’s opioid epidemic.

3. Jared Kushner is responsible for diplomacy with Mexico.

4. Jared Kushner is responsible for diplomacy with China.

5. Jared Kushner is responsible for reforming care for veterans.

6. Jared Kushner is responsible for reforming the criminal justice system.

7. Jared Kushner is responsible for reinventing the entire government and making it work like a business.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

1. Jared Kushner is responsible for negotiating peace in the Middle East.

2. Jared Kushner is responsible for solving America’s opioid epidemic.

3. Jared Kushner is responsible for diplomacy with Mexico.

4. Jared Kushner is responsible for diplomacy with China.

5. Jared Kushner is responsible for reforming care for veterans.

6. Jared Kushner is responsible for reforming the criminal justice system.

7. Jared Kushner is responsible for reinventing the entire government and making it work like a business.

Oh, that Jared.

[zeek]

The South Koreans are more worried about Trump than they are about Kim Jong-il.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The South Koreans are more worried about Trump than they are about Kim Jong-il.

First hand proof of the brainwashing delusional effects of liberal bias fake news from the main stream media.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First hand proof of the brainwashing delusional effects of liberal bias fake news from the main stream media.

There's hope. The noose is tightening. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/...gal-noose.html

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

There's hope. The noose is tightening. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/...gal-noose.html

Not more fake news from the mainstream media again.

[zeek]

The USA and North Korea could use adult leaders.

[zeek]

Good presidents unite the country. Trump divides it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Good presidents unite the country. Trump divides it.

Trump inherited the divided country from the racist Barry.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trump inherited the divided country from the racist Barry.

And is his way, Trump seems to be doubling down.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Good presidents unite the country. Trump divides it.

Just so I'm clear, Hurricane Harvey has caused toxic flooding in Houston, Maria has wiped out Puerto Rico, we have had 3 500 year floods in the last 27 months, the area that undergoes fires in the West has grown 9 fold in recent years, two nuclear powers are threatening nuclear destruction of each other, Republican's latest attempts at fixing health care appears to be doomed, and what you are focused on is a tweet about the NFL players and the national anthem?

If Trump's goal is to distract the country from the truly catastrophic things going on this country he seems to be doing a wonderful job.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Just so I'm clear, Hurricane Harvey has caused toxic flooding in Houston, Maria has wiped out Puerto Rico, we have had 3 500 year floods in the last 27 months, the area that undergoes fires in the West has grown 9 fold in recent years, two nuclear powers are threatening nuclear destruction of each other, Republican's latest attempts at fixing health care appears to be doomed, and what you are focused on is a tweet about the NFL players and the national anthem?

If Trump's goal is to distract the country from the truly catastrophic things going on this country he seems to be doing a wonderful job.

Trump was stirring up his racist base in Alabama.

[zeek]

At least six of President Trump's advisers, including Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus, used private email accounts for government business---Lock 'em up!

[Evangelical]

NFL players are kneeling because to them, America is not living up to the ideals the flag represents. Let's call them the "angry brothers".

Mothers of slain soldiers are angry at the NFL players for kneeling and disrespecting the flag because their children died in American-instigated wars to "protect the flag".

So it's the angry brothers versus the angry mothers.

Trump's logic must be thus: Every time an angry NFL player kneels another soldier gets shot in Iraq/Afghanistan which makes a mother angry.

Therefore the best solution according to Trump, to fix the problem of angry mothers, it to tell the NFL players to stop kneeling. The logic makes sense to me I think.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump was stirring up his racist base in Alabama.

I'm more interested in his trying to stir up Kim to fire at our airplanes. This could be a good strategy. Instead of letting him fire nuclear missiles on his own time frame force him to fire at your planes, then you can wipe out his offensive firepower before they can fire on Seoul.

Everyone knows that if N Korea gets to decide when to start a war that Seoul will suffer the worst, but if they start a war by firing on our airplane we might be able to preempt that worst case scenario.

But realistically speaking we cannot allow N Korea to have hydrogen bombs on intercontinental missiles that they then sell to Iran and Isis.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I'm more interested in his trying to stir up Kim to fire at our airplanes. This could be a good strategy. Instead of letting him fire nuclear missiles on his own time frame force him to fire at your planes, then you can wipe out his offensive firepower before they can fire on Seoul.

Everyone knows that if N Korea gets to decide when to start a war that Seoul will suffer the worst, but if they start a war by firing on our airplane we might be able to preempt that worst case scenario.

But realistically speaking we cannot allow N Korea to have hydrogen bombs on intercontinental missiles that they then sell to Iran and Isis.

Trump ever the provocateur seems to want to provoke Kim into crossing the red line so that the US will be justified in going to war with him. He is playing Chicken with Kim with millions of lives at stake. Trump, the malignant narcissist, has no empathy and is all about winning for himself. So he doesn't really give a **** about the loss of human lives.

Trump isn't giving Kim any way to save face. He seems to want war. It will make him the great man that he believes he is. It would be nice if you were right. But, unfortunately, I think you're giving Trump more credit for strategy than he deserves. How do you figure that provoking NK to fire on our planes will help avoid a nuclear bomb event? It seems like it could have the opposite result.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump ever the provocateur seems to want to provoke Kim into crossing the red line so that the US will be justified in going to war with him. He is playing Chicken with Kim with millions of lives at stake. Trump, the malignant narcissist, has no empathy and is all about winning for himself. So he doesn't really give a **** about the loss of human lives.

Trump isn't giving Kim any way to save face. He seems to want war. It will make him the great man that he believes he is. It would be nice if you were right. But, unfortunately, I think you're giving Trump more credit for strategy than he deserves. How do you figure that provoking NK to fire on our planes will help avoid a nuclear bomb event? It seems like it could have the opposite result.

Millions of lives have been at stake for 30+ years, that is the N Korea gambit, we hold a gun pointed at Seoul and you will not dare confronting us. Meanwhile they have continued their nuclear program, built A bombs and H bombs and intercontinental ballistic missiles that could kit S. Korea, Japan and the US. In addition they are demonstrating that they work for the world to see, thus opening the door for becoming an arms dealer to Iran and ISIS. That is the reality and has nothing to do with Trump, or Obama, or Bush or Clinton.

The strategy that we have taken for the last 30 years had to include a line that N Korea could not cross. If they didn't cross it when they demonstrated a working intercontinental ballistic missile and working nuclear bombs then there is no line and the previous policy was complete BS.

Since it is becoming very obvious that we will have to resolve this militarily and since that will certainly result in horrendous losses in N Korea and very likely in S Korea as well it is critical that the US not be the one to start it. However, the worst case scenario is that N Korea decides on their own when to start because that will involve the most amount of nuclear missiles as well as ordinance aimed at Seoul. Instead, if we can provoke them to fire a missile at one of our planes that is sufficient for us to respond and within 30 minutes we could wipe out their offensive capabilities and every missile. That is the highest probability of preventing nuclear missiles from being fired and should result in the least amount of damage to Seoul.

[awareness]

What's got me disturbed is, we've got two man-children with the button. One man child is saying "I'm the greatest," and the other man child is saying, "No, I'm the greatest." And they're going back and forth like two bullies on the playground, until to prove who's greatest one of them hits the button.

It doesn't take much to trigger a world war. And the resulting radiation will blanket the earth. No winners. #sad ... #mad.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump ever the provocateur seems to want to provoke Kim into crossing the red line so that the US will be justified in going to war with him. He is playing Chicken with Kim with millions of lives at stake. Trump, the malignant narcissist, has no empathy and is all about winning for himself. So he doesn't really give a **** about the loss of human lives.

Trump isn't giving Kim any way to save face. He seems to want war. It will make him the great man that he believes he is. It would be nice if you were right. But, unfortunately, I think you're giving Trump more credit for strategy than he deserves. How do you figure that provoking NK to fire on our planes will help avoid a nuclear bomb event? It seems like it could have the opposite result.

This is nonsense. Kim started acting badly ... Once again ... In an effort to extort billions more, which regularly worked for him and his despotic father with past presidents.

Unfortunately the UN has morphed into a useless anti Israel toothless tiger.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Millions of lives have been at stake for 30+ years, that is the N Korea gambit, we hold a gun pointed at Seoul and you will not dare confronting us. Meanwhile they have continued their nuclear program, built A bombs and H bombs and intercontinental ballistic missiles that could kit S. Korea, Japan and the US. In addition they are demonstrating that they work for the world to see, thus opening the door for becoming an arms dealer to Iran and ISIS. That is the reality and has nothing to do with Trump, or Obama, or Bush or Clinton.

The strategy that we have taken for the last 30 years had to include a line that N Korea could not cross. If they didn't cross it when they demonstrated a working intercontinental ballistic missile and working nuclear bombs then there is no line and the previous policy was complete BS.

Since it is becoming very obvious that we will have to resolve this militarily and since that will certainly result in horrendous losses in N Korea and very likely in S Korea as well it is critical that the US not be the one to start it. However, the worst case scenario is that N Korea decides on their own when to start because that will involve the most amount of nuclear missiles as well as ordinance aimed at Seoul. Instead, if we can provoke them to fire a missile at one of our planes that is sufficient for us to respond and within 30 minutes we could wipe out their offensive capabilities and every missile. That is the highest probability of preventing nuclear missiles from being fired and should result in the least amount of damage to Seoul.

Thank you for spelling out so succinctly both our continued dilemma and our preferred strategy for our "outraged" friend who only knows what the Clinton News Network told him last night.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I'm more interested in his trying to stir up Kim to fire at our airplanes. This could be a good strategy. Instead of letting him fire nuclear missiles on his own time frame force him to fire at your planes, then you can wipe out his offensive firepower before they can fire on Seoul.

Everyone knows that if N Korea gets to decide when to start a war that Seoul will suffer the worst, but if they start a war by firing on our airplane we might be able to preempt that worst case scenario.

But realistically speaking we cannot allow N Korea to have hydrogen bombs on intercontinental missiles that they then sell to Iran and Isis.

The flaw in this strategy is that Kim could destroy Seoul within 5 minutes of any American aggression being detected using his artillery.

There is no way American can destroy up to 1 million artillery pieces within 5 minutes and there is no missile defense for artillery.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Millions of lives have been at stake for 30+ years, that is the N Korea gambit, we hold a gun pointed at Seoul and you will not dare confronting us. Meanwhile they have continued their nuclear program, built A bombs and H bombs and intercontinental ballistic missiles that could kit S. Korea, Japan and the US. In addition they are demonstrating that they work for the world to see, thus opening the door for becoming an arms dealer to Iran and ISIS. That is the reality and has nothing to do with Trump, or Obama, or Bush or Clinton.

The strategy that we have taken for the last 30 years had to include a line that N Korea could not cross. If they didn't cross it when they demonstrated a working intercontinental ballistic missile and working nuclear bombs then there is no line and the previous policy was complete BS.

Since it is becoming very obvious that we will have to resolve this militarily and since that will certainly result in horrendous losses in N Korea and very likely in S Korea as well it is critical that the US not be the one to start it. However, the worst case scenario is that N Korea decides on their own when to start because that will involve the most amount of nuclear missiles as well as ordinance aimed at Seoul. Instead, if we can provoke them to fire a missile at one of our planes that is sufficient for us to respond and within 30 minutes we could wipe out their offensive capabilities and every missile. That is the highest probability of preventing nuclear missiles from being fired and should result in the least amount of damage to Seoul.

Again, you've mentioned wiping out their missiles (if that is possible, I don't think it is because they don't know where they are) but forgetting about the artillery and other conventional weapons which are the bigger danger. Remember Kim does not need nuclear weapons or missiles to take over Seoul, the nuclear capability is to threaten Japan and the US directly.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The flaw in this strategy is that Kim could destroy Seoul within 5 minutes of any American aggression being detected using his artillery.

There is no way American can destroy up to 1 million artillery pieces within 5 minutes and there is no missile defense for artillery.

Within 30 minutes we could lay down a devastating barrage, with our own artillery, bombs, drones, warthogs, etc. So although with perfect communications they should know within 5 minutes of firing on an airplane that they are at war we also have very effective techniques at jamming communications and knocking them out, so there is a fighting chance in the fog of war N Korean troops don't get the order. Regardless of the actual outcome it is clearly the best option in the event of war.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Again, you've mentioned wiping out their missiles (if that is possible, I don't think it is because they don't know where they are) but forgetting about the artillery and other conventional weapons which are the bigger danger. Remember Kim does not need nuclear weapons or missiles to take over Seoul, the nuclear capability is to threaten Japan and the US directly.

Missiles are fired from a location and take a good 30 seconds to be fired and get off the launch pad. If you have those launch pads retargeted with drones it is very possible to obliterate them in less than 30 seconds. Once again, the best chance we have of hitting a missile is during launch.

We would completely own the skies from day 1. That means those who fire artillery would be acting suicidal. Yes we can't stop them, but the minute they fire they are identified as a target which can be destroyed quickly and easily.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Missiles are fired from a location and take a good 30 seconds to be fired and get off the launch pad. If you have those launch pads retargeted with drones it is very possible to obliterate them in less than 30 seconds. Once again, the best chance we have of hitting a missile is during launch.

We would completely own the skies from day 1. That means those who fire artillery would be acting suicidal. Yes we can't stop them, but the minute they fire they are identified as a target which can be destroyed quickly and easily.

That's being optimistic and perhaps unrealistic. This is not Iraq where everything is out in the open. I think in reality it would take weeks because most of the artillery is in mountain bunkers and the terrain favors NK. The artillery is well protected and can fire and quickly return to its safe position. There is the real potential for weeks of artillery bombardment of South Korea.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's being optimistic and perhaps unrealistic. This is not Iraq where everything is out in the open. I think in reality it would take weeks because most of the artillery is in mountain bunkers and the terrain favors NK. The artillery is well protected and can fire and quickly return to its safe position. There is the real potential for weeks of artillery bombardment of South Korea.

So like Iraq we hit 'em with Shock and Awe. There's nukes there, and nuclear materials. Lot's of radiation will be spewed into the earth's atmosphere. I may be far enough away to not be killed or affected by the blast, but the chance of me dying a slow early death will be greater, from the rise in the radiation level, in the air, soil, food, and water.

I say, let NK be considered a nuclear nation, like so many others, including our self. And let's try to get along with them like we do all the other nuclear nations ... and there's lots of them ... way toooooooo many. We started it. We're the only ones so far to use these nuclear WMD's on non-combatant civilians.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's being optimistic and perhaps unrealistic. This is not Iraq where everything is out in the open. I think in reality it would take weeks because most of the artillery is in mountain bunkers and the terrain favors NK. The artillery is well protected and can fire and quickly return to its safe position. There is the real potential for weeks of artillery bombardment of South Korea.

I think our biggest concern at this point is intercontinental ballistic missiles with atomic warheads. There is no doubt that the best time to hit those is while they are taking off. If we have a predator drone circling above when they are first launched we will be in position to do that. If we have our full resources focused on N. Korea we should know where the launching pads are located.

Once N. Korea fires a single nuclear missile we will have the green light to use tactical nuclear bombs on their artillery. With satellites and drones we can pinpoint locations from which artillery is fired and target that location in a matter of seconds with cruise missiles, other artillery, Warthogs, etc.

That said, you are correct, it will likely be a very difficult process of a week or more to eliminate every single one of these artillery bunkers. But that is not a guarantee. It is known as the "fog of war". If a N. Korean airplane fires on a US airplane we can take that aggression as a declaration of war. If we immediately initiate an all out attack designed to also wipe out their communications then it is possible in a best case scenario that very few N. Koreans will receive an order to fire. We can no longer be restrained by the fear of an artillery shell hitting Seoul.

The reason humans have moved away from war since the advent of the nuclear age is that world trade increases the cost of war and decreases the potential profit. That is not true of N. Korea, they have virtually no world trade at risk. In fact, the only real thing of value they have to trade is this technology of nuclear bombs and intercontinental ballistic missiles. It seems a certainty that Iran and others would currently be working with them to buy this technology.

Therefore it is critical to calculate in the cost of doing nothing. Does anyone really think that if Iran or ISIS gets this technology they won't use it? It is not reasonable to think that doing nothing will lead to peace, it will lead to a nuclear war. Hence the time has come to rip the bandaid off.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So like Iraq we hit 'em with Shock and Awe. There's nukes there, and nuclear materials. Lot's of radiation will be spewed into the earth's atmosphere. I may be far enough away to not be killed or affected by the blast, but the chance of me dying a slow early death will be greater, from the rise in the radiation level, in the air, soil, food, and water.

I say, let NK be considered a nuclear nation, like so many others, including our self. And let's try to get along with them like we do all the other nuclear nations ... and there's lots of them ... way toooooooo many. We started it. We're the only ones so far to use these nuclear WMD's on non-combatant civilians.

Then you will also have to "get along" with a nuclear Iran with missiles that can hit Israel and the US as well as a nuclear ISIS. The terrorists wet dream, a missile that can hit the US and Europe with a nuclear bomb from a cave in Afghanistan.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

We started it. We're the only ones so far to use these nuclear WMD's on non-combatant civilians.

'Well geez, if you say it like that you can make anything sound bad. We have nuclear bombs because we are awesome!' (Adapted from Rick in Rick and Morty)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So like Iraq we hit 'em with Shock and Awe. There's nukes there, and nuclear materials. Lot's of radiation will be spewed into the earth's atmosphere. I may be far enough away to not be killed or affected by the blast, but the chance of me dying a slow early death will be greater, from the rise in the radiation level, in the air, soil, food, and water.

I say, let NK be considered a nuclear nation, like so many others, including our self. And let's try to get along with them like we do all the other nuclear nations ... and there's lots of them ... way toooooooo many. We started it. We're the only ones so far to use these nuclear WMD's on non-combatant civilians.

Yeah great idea! Let's make love, not war. Why can't our leaders ever try a little diplomacy? Send someone skillful over there, how about that colorful Dennis Rodman? All we are saying ... is give peace a chance!

Instead of bombing each other, let's just share a little radiation with each other. Instead of EMP's wiping out our grid, how about we show a sign of respect by shutting off the power grid tonight. We can call it the Kim Jong-Un National Power Grid Appreciation Day.

Instead of disrespecting fat people in power, how about we all show our empathy and respect by eating "missile-shaped" chocolate bars with Kim's face engraved on them. They will be made of Ghiradelli Chocolate so that he won't bomb San Francisco.

Instead of the NFL playing games in London, why doesn't the NFL play a game of football next week in Pyingyang. While the US National Anthem is played, the entire team can take a knee while facing Kim in homage, and then heartily clap and cheer when their Anthem is played.

Then in a sign of submissive uniformity, several "volunteers" from both teams will stay behind in NoKo because of all the disrespect we have showed them over the Otto Warbier incident.

And just to show how we are a nation of loving immigrants, let's send the Clinton's and the Obama's with the NFL as goodwill Ambassadors. This will show Kim and the whole world that we are not racist homophobic xenophobes.

Thanks awareness! You are onto something here!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then in a sign of submissive uniformity, several "volunteers" from both teams will stay behind in NoKo because of the disrespect we showed them over the Otto Warbier incident.

It may appear that the N. Korean's were too harsh on Otto, but let's remember, he pulled that poster off the wall.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It may appear that the N. Korean's were too harsh on Otto, but let's remember, he pulled that poster off the wall.

Did you look at that video closely? It was not Otto who did that.

The "crime" was staged.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did you look at that video closely? It was not Otto who did that.

The "crime" was staged.

I was tongue in cheek, I don't think death is an appropriate penalty for pulling a poster off a wall, particularly if it was staged.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yeah great idea! Let's make love, not war. Why can't our leaders ever try a little diplomacy? Send someone skillful over there, how about that colorful Dennis Rodman? All we are saying ... is give peace a chance!

Instead of bombing each other, let's just share a little radiation with each other. Instead of EMP's wiping out our grid, how about we show a sign of respect by shutting off the power grid tonight. We can call it the Kim Jong-Un National Power Grid Appreciation Day.

Instead of disrespecting fat people in power, how about we all show our empathy and respect by eating "missile-shaped" chocolate bars with Kim's face engraved on them. They will be made of Ghiradelli Chocolate so that he won't bomb San Francisco.

Instead of the NFL playing games in London, why doesn't the NFL play a game of football next week in Pyingyang. While the US National Anthem is played, the entire team can take a knee while facing Kim in homage, and then heartily clap and cheer when their Anthem is played.

Then in a sign of submissive uniformity, several "volunteers" from both teams will stay behind in NoKo because of all the disrespect we have showed them over the Otto Warbier incident.

And just to show how we are a nation of loving immigrants, let's send the Clinton's and the Obama's with the NFL as goodwill Ambassadors. This will show Kim and the whole world that we are not racist homophobic xenophobes.

Thanks awareness! You are onto something here!

Good one bro. Very creative. I guess you told this long-haired hippie communist. Haha.

I'm afraid my I idea wasn't as creative. I read an article about diplomacy between the Netherlands and North Korea. One of the things that was stressed is that NK wants to be recognized as a nuclear state. Of course we don't want that, L'il Kim is a crazy man.

But the way I see it, everyone that has nukes are crazy, including us. And unless we're going to nuke NK back to the stone age we're stuck with NK being a nuke nation. If not, we're going to have to learn to live with it ; just as we live with every other nation that has them.

I just think Trump is going about it all wrong. He seems to be provoking a war with L'il Kim. And it concerns me a lot. I don't think the world needs another world war. Too many powers have nukes, and it will hurt everyone if they start flying.

[Evangelical]

A possible solution to the NK problem without conflict is to equip SK with nuclear weapons so the two countries can achieve a sort of balance such as achieved between India and Pakistan.

Then the US can remove its military forces from South Korea and they should be able to defend themselves against NK's superior force.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A possible solution to the NK problem without conflict is to equip SK with nuclear weapons so the two countries can achieve a sort of balance such as achieved between India and Pakistan.

Then the US can remove its military forces from South Korea and they should be able to defend themselves against NK's superior force.

I don't think the concern with anyone is that S. Korea is being threatened by N. Korea's nukes. If they nuke S. Korea it will poison N. Korea. Both the US and Japan are poised to wipe out N. Korea if they fire a nuclear bomb. Just because they might be able to fire a missile that we are unable to shoot down does not in any way mean they can wipe out the US and Japan's capabilities prior to a counter strike. The use of one nuclear bomb means certain total destruction of N. Korea.

Nor is the concern that N. Korea is now a nuclear state as Awareness is pushing.

The concern is that they will sell these nukes, and that their entire program has been to design nuclear weapons and missiles for sale to countries that can't get them (Iran) and anyone else willing to pay (ISIS).

Unless you (or Awareness) have a peaceful way to address this you haven't responded to the crisis.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't think the concern with anyone is that S. Korea is being threatened by N. Korea's nukes. If they nuke S. Korea it will poison N. Korea. Both the US and Japan are poised to wipe out N. Korea if they fire a nuclear bomb. Just because they might be able to fire a missile that we are unable to shoot down does not in any way mean they can wipe out the US and Japan's capabilities prior to a counter strike. The use of one nuclear bomb means certain total destruction of N. Korea.

Nor is the concern that N. Korea is now a nuclear state as Awareness is pushing.

The concern is that they will sell these nukes, and that their entire program has been to design nuclear weapons and missiles for sale to countries that can't get them (Iran) and anyone else willing to pay (ISIS).

Unless you (or Awareness) have a peaceful way to address this you haven't responded to the crisis.

There's some logic there that doesn't make sense, which is that it is tolerated for NK to be a nuclear state but we are afraid that Iran will become a nuclear state. The use of these weapons by either NK or Iran will result in their total destruction. So it really doesn't matter if Iran gets them as well, if they use them they will be destroyed just like NK would be.

Iran is no more willing to use them against the US than NK is, and Iran is more rational in terms of the sanity and disposition of their leaders, and the US has not really given Iran any reason to destroy them. Unlike North Korea which is against the US on the basis of the US destroying most of their country in the Korean war.

ISIS having them is more of a concern because they would probably use them to promote an agenda, and there is no real way America could retaliate because ISIS is not a country. But Iran is majority Shia religion and compared to ISIS is more moderate, I don't see Iran giving ISIS much support against the US.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A possible solution to the NK problem without conflict is to equip SK with nuclear weapons so the two countries can achieve a sort of balance such as achieved between India and Pakistan.

Then the US can remove its military forces from South Korea and they should be able to defend themselves against NK's superior force.

China and Russia would never allow this, just as we would not allow nukes in Cuba. SoKo could never stand alone against NoKo.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the way I see it, everyone that has nukes are crazy, including us. And unless we're going to nuke NK back to the stone age we're stuck with NK being a nuke nation. If not, we're going to have to learn to live with it ; just as we live with every other nation that has them.

I just think Trump is going about it all wrong. He seems to be provoking a war with L'il Kim. And it concerns me a lot. I don't think the world needs another world war. Too many powers have nukes, and it will hurt everyone if they start flying.

Kim is the one who has threatened the US. Trump is only counter-punching the bully. If Hillary had won the election, she would be in the same dilemma, except she would probably buy more time like Obama did in Iran, at the expense of Israel and $150 Billion.

Kim wants far more than a little "recognition." Initially Kim wants the whole Korean peninsula, and he believes that striking the US and demobilizing us is the way to accomplish that. Kim believes that the US will not strike back, since that will put us against China.

Unfortunately for us all, Kim sees the HANEMP as his winning formula. Supposedly he can attack our infrastructure without directly killing any Americans. Then he is free to move his troups into SoKo, thinking we will be unwilling and unable to retaliate with nukes so near China and Russia.

Apparently the effects of an HANEMP would be similar to what has happened in Puerto Rico. Their infrastructure is wiped out for months. We now have 3 major hurricane disasters in less than a month, which will all look like mere toothaches if Kim successfully launches that NEMP which he has promised.

Meanwhile half the country has decided they don't like their country anymore. We have some serious issues here folks.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There's some logic there that doesn't make sense, which is that it is tolerated for NK to be a nuclear state but we are afraid that Iran will become a nuclear state. The use of these weapons by either NK or Iran will result in their total destruction. So it really doesn't matter if Iran gets them as well, if they use them they will be destroyed just like NK would be.

Iran is no more willing to use them against the US than NK is, and Iran is more rational in terms of the sanity and disposition of their leaders, and the US has not really given Iran any reason to destroy them. Unlike North Korea which is against the US on the basis of the US destroying most of their country in the Korean war.

ISIS having them is more of a concern because they would probably use them to promote an agenda, and there is no real way America could retaliate because ISIS is not a country. But Iran is majority Shia religion and compared to ISIS is more moderate, I don't see Iran giving ISIS much support against the US.

That is not what I said. Obviously we are concerned when a country with a nuclear bomb and an intercontinental ballistic missile threatens us with it. The US is concerned and Japan is concerned.

What I said is that we are not particularly worried about N. Korea using the bomb on S. Korea because that would not make any sense. S. Korea is not threatening N. Korea and if you nuke S. Korea you can't then inhabit the place, because you nuked it. There is no possible benefit to N. Korea to do that, while there is a huge disadvantage, they would be destroyed immediately. Nuking S. Korea doesn't make them safer or richer, just the opposite.

Now as destructive as a nuclear missile from N. Korea would be, other than the horrible loss of life it would not impact us that much. N. Korea currently has 0 impact on our economy or on our daily lives. It would be a human calamity that would only make a very small ripple on the world's economy. But you take that same missile to Iran and the story is completely different. Israel would defend themselves. Iran is a huge part of the world's economy, and the possibility that other like minded Arab states would unite with Iran could cause total devastation worldwide, regardless of whether or not the nuclear bomb lands near your city.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kim is the one who has threatened the US. Trump is only counter-punching the bully. If Hillary had won the election, she would be in the same dilemma, except she would probably buy more time like Obama did in Iran, at the expense of Israel and $150 Billion.

Kim wants far more than a little "recognition." Initially Kim wants the whole Korean peninsula, and he believes that striking the US and demobilizing us is the way to accomplish that. Kim believes that the US will not strike back, since that will put us against China.

Unfortunately for us all, Kim sees the HANEMP as his winning formula. Supposedly he can attack our infrastructure without directly killing any Americans. Then he is free to move his troups into SoKo, thinking we will be unwilling and unable to retaliate with nukes so near China and Russia.

Apparently the effects of an HANEMP would be similar to what has happened in Puerto Rico. Their infrastructure is wiped out for months. We now have 3 major hurricane disasters in less than a month, which will all look like mere toothaches if Kim successfully launches that NEMP which he has promised.

Meanwhile half the country has decided they don't like their country anymore. We have some serious issues here folks.

I think the US is far more important to China than N. Korea. If trade with the US were to stop for a few months the impact in China would be catastrophic. If the US suffers a massive economic blow then China does as well. If we go bankrupt, they do too. As for an EMP we also have them and are probably ready to drop it the second he fires on an airplane, disrupting his communications and giving us the 30 minutes we need to wipe out every missile launching site.

Kim is like a Pee Wee football coach thinking he is going to sucker punch the Patriots.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think the US is far more important to China than N. Korea. If trade with the US were to stop for a few months the impact in China would be catastrophic. If the US suffers a massive economic blow then China does as well. If we go bankrupt, they do too. As for an EMP we also have them and are probably ready to drop it the second he fires on an airplane, disrupting his communications and giving us the 30 minutes we need to wipe out every missile launching site.

When I read the prophecies in Revelation, I wonder why the US, the "greatest nation on earth," and the greatest stabilizing force for peace, seems to be totally non-existent.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I read the prophecies in Revelation, I wonder why the US, the "greatest nation on earth," and the greatest stabilizing force for peace, seems to be totally non-existent.

I thought the term "the great eagle" referred to the US. Mexico also has an eagle as a national symbol, between the two countries I think "great eagle" obviously refers to the US.

Also, the US is the greatest nation on earth when you compare us with Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Luxembourg, etc. But when you combine all of the European countries together it is a different story. That leaves Gog and Magog.

The country I always wondered about was India.

[zeek]

"Why would any country in the world sign ...an agreement with the United States if they knew that a reckless president and an irresponsible Congress might simply discard that agreement a few years later?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Why would any country in the world sign ...an agreement with the United States if they knew that a reckless president and an irresponsible Congress might simply discard that agreement a few years later?"

Because it was a reckless president and an irresponsible congress who signed the agreement in the first place.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kim is the one who has threatened the US. Trump is only counter-punching the bully. If Hillary had won the election, she would be in the same dilemma, except she would probably buy more time like Obama did in Iran, at the expense of Israel and $150 Billion.

Kim wants far more than a little "recognition." Initially Kim wants the whole Korean peninsula, and he believes that striking the US and demobilizing us is the way to accomplish that. Kim believes that the US will not strike back, since that will put us against China.

Unfortunately for us all, Kim sees the HANEMP as his winning formula. Supposedly he can attack our infrastructure without directly killing any Americans. Then he is free to move his troups into SoKo, thinking we will be unwilling and unable to retaliate with nukes so near China and Russia.

Apparently the effects of an HANEMP would be similar to what has happened in Puerto Rico. Their infrastructure is wiped out for months. We now have 3 major hurricane disasters in less than a month, which will all look like mere toothaches if Kim successfully launches that NEMP which he has promised.

Meanwhile half the country has decided they don't like their country anymore. We have some serious issues here folks.

I understand your concerns bro Ohio. I share them. EMP's have been around since before we were born.

Again we're the pioneers of such weapons. All nuke nations now have the power of HANEMP's. And we have to deal with all of them.

Can't we work it out with NK too? I don't know. Trump and Kim have locked horns. We all know how important "saving face" is to the Chinese, and NKians, so maybe we can't.

As it stands right now, your concerns, and mine, are on high alert, or should be.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can't we work it out with NK too? I don't know. Trump and Kim have locked horns. We all know how important "saving face" is to the Chinese, and NKians, so maybe we can't.

In part Kim is fueled by the incessant Trump hate rhetoric spread by our media around the world.

Hey did you see the shoes Melania wore the other day? For shame!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In part Kim is fueled by the incessant Trump hate rhetoric spread by our media around the world.

Hey did you see the shoes Melania wore the other day? For shame!

I know, as usual, communists are completely out of touch.

[ZNPaaneah]

I think there is one thing we can all agree on:

“One of the key problems today is that politics is such a disgrace, good people don’t want to go into government.” Donald Trump

This is so true, so true.

People don't give Trump enough credit for some of his more insightful comments like:

"Private jets cost a lot of money". Donald Trump.

Again, so true.

[zeek]

Big surprise. Trump's tax plan is great for the rich and bad for the rest of us. It calls for raising the lowest tax rate from 10 to 12 percent and eliminates personal exemptions. Will his working-class supporters ever wise up?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Big surprise. Trump's tax plan is great for the rich and bad for the rest of us. It calls for raising the lowest tax rate from 10 to 12 percent and eliminates personal exemptions. Will his working-class supporters ever wise up?

What difference does it make? His attempt to repeal and replace has failed, every initiative he has proposed has imploded. He campaigns for "Big Luther" and he loses by 10 points. He rebukes the NFL and they all stand 100% united. Now the news is pointing out that his supporters got played by Russia. Does anyone really think he can push through a change in the tax code?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Big surprise. Trump's tax plan is great for the rich and bad for the rest of us. It calls for raising the lowest tax rate from 10 to 12 percent and eliminates personal exemptions. Will his working-class supporters ever wise up?

No, they love puffer fish ... they look bigger than they are, their Puffer Fish-in-Chief.

Don't fret bro Zeek, it's just Trumpspeak. Don't take it serious until congress and the senate get at it. It's sortta like Trumps' promise of healthcare for all, and cheaper and better, than the disaster Obamacare ... and his Trump University.

He's like Witness Lee.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

No, they love puffer fish ... they look bigger than they are, their Puffer Fish-in-Chief.

Don't fret bro Zeek, it's just Trumpspeak. Don't take it serious until congress and the senate get at it. It's sortta like Trumps' promise of healthcare for all, and cheaper and better, than the disaster Obamacare ... and his Trump University.

He's like Witness Lee.

He was going to label China a currency manipulator, make Mexico pay for the wall, cancel visas to countries that won’t take back illegal immigrants, impose a five year ban on congressmen and Whitehouse officials becoming lobbyists. Not to mention all the things he actually tried to do that have failed.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

He was going to label China a currency manipulator, make Mexico pay for the wall, cancel visas to countries that won’t take back illegal immigrants, impose a five year ban on congressmen and Whitehouse officials becoming lobbyists. Not to mention all the things he actually tried to do that have failed.

He's got to be great ... in more than just his head. And so far he's not been great. A war will fix that. A war will make him great again. Expect a war, for that reason alone.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I thought the term "the great eagle" referred to the US. Mexico also has an eagle as a national symbol, between the two countries I think "great eagle" obviously refers to the US.

Also, the US is the greatest nation on earth when you compare us with Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Luxembourg, etc. But when you combine all of the European countries together it is a different story. That leaves Gog and Magog.

The country I always wondered about was India.

India like other nations of dark people dont feature in bible prophecy because of the whole ham and kush thing. The Indians are descended from Kush or Ku****es. In India is the Hindu Kush mountains.

I think they will join or follow one of the other great nations...or be destroyed somehow. In short.. the bible overlooks dark people.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

India like other nations of dark people dont feature in bible prophecy because of the whole ham and kush thing. The Indians are descended from Kush or Ku****es. In India is the Hindu Kush mountains.

I think they will join or follow one of the other great nations...or be destroyed somehow. In short.. the bible overlooks dark people.

So, the Bible is racist?

[zeek]

Finally...a candidate Ohio can be proud of...http://www.businessinsider.com/who-i...results-2017-9

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Finally...a candidate Ohio can be proud of...http://www.businessinsider.com/who-i...results-2017-9

That's RIGHT!

I went down to Bama and voted for Roy Moore.

This country needs far more God-fearing leaders with courage and conviction!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

India like other nations of dark people dont feature in bible prophecy because of the whole ham and kush thing. The Indians are descended from Kush or Ku****es. In India is the Hindu Kush mountains.

I think they will join or follow one of the other great nations...or be destroyed somehow. In short.. the bible overlooks dark people.

More nonsense speculation from our Kool-Aid sponsor.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, the Bible is racist?

I think what Evangelical says is that the Bible doesn't see race, or more specifically, it doesn't see dark races.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

He's got to be great ... in more than just his head. And so far he's not been great. A war will fix that. A war will make him great again. Expect a war, for that reason alone.

I don't think he gets enough sympathy for his health issues which resulted in his being unfit for military duty. Although I do find it strange that the people who get out of military duty wind up becoming commander in chief (Clinton and Trump). That would be a nice law, if you were ineligible for the draft you should also be ineligible for President (would have eliminated both Hillary and Donald from this last election).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't think he gets enough sympathy for his health issues which resulted in his being unfit for military duty. Although I do find it strange that the people who get out of military duty wind up becoming commander in chief (Clinton and Trump). That would be a nice law, if you were ineligible for the draft you should also be ineligible for President (would have eliminated both Hillary and Donald from this last election).

First we got Birther problems in the White House with Barry "Who'sSane", and now you want to go after privileged white folks like Bill Clinton for not Chelsea "Manning Up" and serving our country.

What will we be left with, a bunch of guys like John McCain?

God forbid!!!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's RIGHT!

I went down to Bama and voted for Roy Moore.

This country needs far more God-fearing leaders with courage and conviction!

Or a "Christian" madman that wants a theocracy, and says God's law trumps our constitution.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

In short.. the bible overlooks dark people.

Now, now, bro Ohio. Don't discourage him from trying to prove his statement. I'd like to hear-read it. Aren't Hebrews dark people?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, the Bible is racist?

Of course the Bible is racist. At least the Old Testament. Where God has His chosen race.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First we got Birther problems in the White House with Barry "Who'sSane", and now you want to go after privileged white folks like Bill Clinton for not Chelsea "Manning Up" and serving our country.

What will we be left with, a bunch of guys like John McCain?

God forbid!!!

and like JFK, Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, etc. I am not suggesting serving in the military is a requirement. Only that if you applied for and received a deferment that you are ineligible.

After all as commander in chief you are required to send others into battle that you yourself opted out of.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Aren't Hebrews dark people?

Thats what confused me.

Evangelical -- help?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Of course the Bible is racist. At least the Old Testament. Where God has His chosen race.

Why do you misquote me. I was referring to Evangelical's post that the Bible "overlooks".

Yes, it was a radical change with the NT, prior to this all religions that I am aware of were racist, nationalists, etc. There is much misunderstanding among liberals that other religions are "more open minded" when in reality it never crossed their mind that anyone outside of their little group would be included.

[OBW]

What will we be left with, a bunch of guys like John McCain?

One can only wish. "My way or the highway" has done us absolutely no good for the past 25+ years.

In fact, since virtually all of the John McCains of Congress have been swept from office, we have gridlock instead of action. Hardliners of both parties may influence where things go, but it was the coalition builders that got it done. There have been only a few brief periods in my life in which the House, Senate, and Presidency were firmly on the same page. The rest of the time was either chaos or it had consensus builders among them to get something done.

Seldom to everyone's liking.

But still better than doing nothing.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why do you misquote me.

Sorry. I guess I was more responding to bro Zeek.

Originally Posted by Z

I was referring to Evangelical's post that the Bible "overlooks".

And Evan is now on the spot to explain the Bible overlooking darkies. Let's see if he gets up before the 10 count.

Originally Posted by Z

Yes, it was a radical change with the NT, prior to this all religions that I am aware of were racist, nationalists, etc. There is much misunderstanding among liberals that other religions are "more open minded" when in reality it never crossed their mind that anyone outside of their little group would be included.

The Navajo Indians called themselves "The Real People." To them all other tribes weren't real people.

Isn't that the same with the Hebrew tribe? They thought they were so special to God that they wrote in a book that God said it.

Silly Jews, and Navajos, of course God is not a racist ... unless it's the whole human race ... and He's not a speciesist either.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

The Navajo Indians called themselves "The Real People." To them all other tribes weren't real people.

Isn't that the same with the Hebrew tribe? They thought they were so special to God that they wrote in a book that God said it.

Silly Jews, and Navajos, of course God is not a racist ... unless it's the whole human race ... and He's not a speciesist either.

Shintoism had the same attitude towards Japan. the Gospel to all nations was a very radical and unique concept. A concept that Evangelical seems to have missed, but let's let him clarify that for us.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

India like other nations of dark people dont feature in bible prophecy because of the whole ham and kush thing. The Indians are descended from Kush or Ku****es. In India is the Hindu Kush mountains.

I think they will join or follow one of the other great nations...or be destroyed somehow. In short.. the bible overlooks dark people.

My approach to bible prophecy is to follow the Generations of Noah and consider the significance of that as related to the nations which will be around during the end times. I find this to be a more robust approach than merely cherry picking verses and trying to figure out how they fit into the bigger picture. It's like trying to complete a jig saw puzzle piece by piece. The Generations of Noah gives us a complete picture of what the "jig saw puzzle" looks like and then we can relate the verses.

We can say confidently that whatever is described concerning Noahs sons will also apply in the end times. This is because of God's order, sovereignty and arrangement. If the bible says God blesses one of Noah's sons, then that nation that is derived from that son will be blessed in the future. Similarly, a nation said to be cursed, like Cush, will not be blessed over time. Cush was a sub-Saharan African and upon whom the curse of Ham fell. Is it only coincidence that nations coming from Cush are not blessed today as much as the sons of Japheth (Western nations)? As Jeremiah 13:23 says - can a Cush ite change his skin?

It's a sign of the PC times I guess that whenever a person's skin color is mentioned then it automatically must mean racism. To clarify my statement about dark people, I do not believe the bible is racist, as it does not attribute skin color as a cause. But generally speaking it does refer to skin color as a consequence. Skin color and health is related, for example we say a person can "turn green with envy", "blue in the face" etc. Color of the skin is not a cause, but a consequence. In other words, the bible does not "overlook" nations of dark people in bible prophecy just because they are dark, but because of what that darkness represented and how it came about. Of greater significance, is the spiritual darkness that is present in Africa and India, that is darker than most other nations with their worship of demons and other evil things.

We can say that God's blessing is not on these nations and for this reason they have not achieved greatness in order to feature significantly in end times events. I can say fairly confidently that no nation that is predominantly comprised of dark people, features significantly (as significantly as USA, Russia, China etc) in bible prophecy. Anyone can check these facts for themselves.

Dark nations in general are covered by Isaiah 18 and any other references to Cush in the Bible. This includes India who are descended from Cush and possibly Shem and Put as well. They are obviously involved but are not major players in end times events.

It is also no coincidence that India is South of Israeli and Russia (kingdom of the North, or Magog). Just as Ethiopia , Egypt etc were South of the ancient Magog. Possibly the exact location of each nation is God's arrangement such that end times prophecy can be fulfilled. God arranged the tectonic plates such that certain nations would reside north, south, east and west of Israel.

To put this another way, if India was located in the region of Iceland, it would be hard to see how the bible prophesy concerning Northern and Southern kingdoms could be true. It is likely significant that there are no nations of dark skinned people in Northern latitudes today or in the end times. Even nature tells us that animals, such as arctic wolves and polar bears that live in high latitudes are white, not black. It would be strange for us to see a polar bear living in Africa or India. But God has ordained these types of animals to live in certain parts of the world.

I could put this another way - in the end times there will be no African or Indian superpower to revival the power of the USA, Russia, China that plays a major role in end times events concerning Israel. The strongest kingdoms are the Northern ones - USA, Russia, China, which all exist at Northern latitudes. These nations are also predominantly lighter skinned than those living in the Southern/equatorial regions. It would be hard for anyone to argue that this is not according to God's arrangement as it relates to bible prophecy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Now, now, bro Ohio. Don't discourage him from trying to prove his statement. I'd like to hear-read it. Aren't Hebrews dark people?

Are Israelites dark skinned today? No. The only people who say Hebrews are dark are dark people (who want a dark skinned Moses, Jesus etc) who are racist against white people, and those who assume that just because Israelites lived in Egypt, then they must look like Egyptians. It's fair to say, that just because a person lives in another country doesn't mean their skin color changes to the predominant color of that nation. Well, we know the Israelites did not have relations with the Egyptians.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My approach to bible prophecy is to follow the Generations of Noah and consider the significance of that as related to the nations which will be around during the end times. I find this to be a more robust approach than merely cherry picking verses and trying to figure out how they fit into the bigger picture. It's like trying to complete a jig saw puzzle piece by piece. The Generations of Noah gives us a complete picture of what the "jig saw puzzle" looks like and then we can relate the verses.

We can say confidently that whatever is described concerning Noahs sons will also apply in the end times. This is because of God's order, sovereignty and arrangement. If the bible says God blesses one of Noah's sons, then that nation that is derived from that son will be blessed in the future. Similarly, a nation said to be cursed, like Cush, will not be blessed over time. Cush was a sub-Saharan African and upon whom the curse of Ham fell. Is it only coincidence that nations coming from Cush are not blessed today as much as the sons of Japheth (Western nations)? As Jeremiah 13:23 says - can a Cush ite change his skin?

It's a sign of the PC times I guess that whenever a person's skin color is mentioned then it automatically must mean racism. To clarify my statement about dark people, I do not believe the bible is racist, as it does not attribute skin color as a cause. But generally speaking it does refer to skin color as a consequence. Skin color and health is related, for example we say a person can "turn green with envy", "blue in the face" etc. Color of the skin is not a cause, but a consequence. In other words, the bible does not "overlook" nations of dark people in bible prophecy just because they are dark, but because of what that darkness represented and how it came about. Of greater significance, is the spiritual darkness that is present in Africa and India, that is darker than most other nations with their worship of demons and other evil things.

We can say that God's blessing is not on these nations and for this reason they have not achieved greatness in order to feature significantly in end times events. I can say fairly confidently that no nation that is predominantly comprised of dark people, features significantly (as significantly as USA, Russia, China etc) in bible prophecy. Anyone can check these facts for themselves.

Dark nations in general are covered by Isaiah 18 and any other references to Cush in the Bible. This includes India who are descended from Cush and possibly Shem and Put as well. They are obviously involved but are not major players in end times events.

It is also no coincidence that India is South of Israeli and Russia (kingdom of the North, or Magog). Just as Ethiopia , Egypt etc were South of the ancient Magog. Possibly the exact location of each nation is God's arrangement such that end times prophecy can be fulfilled. God arranged the tectonic plates such that certain nations would reside north, south, east and west of Israel.

To put this another way, if India was located in the region of Iceland, it would be hard to see how the bible prophesy concerning Northern and Southern kingdoms could be true. It is likely significant that there are no nations of dark skinned people in Northern latitudes today or in the end times. Even nature tells us that animals, such as arctic wolves and polar bears that live in high latitudes are white, not black. It would be strange for us to see a polar bear living in Africa or India. But God has ordained these types of animals to live in certain parts of the world.

I could put this another way - in the end times there will be no African or Indian superpower to revival the power of the USA, Russia, China that plays a major role in end times events concerning Israel. The strongest kingdoms are the Northern ones - USA, Russia, China, which all exist at Northern latitudes. These nations are also predominantly lighter skinned than those living in the Southern/equatorial regions. It would be hard for anyone to argue that this is not according to God's arrangement as it relates to bible prophecy.

Spoken like a true racist. How dark does one have to be to be dark in your book?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Or a "Christian" madman that wants a theocracy, and says God's law trumps our constitution.

Does not God's law supersede our constitution? It should. God's law says murder is wrong, but supposedly our constitution gives mothers the "right" to murder the helpless unborn.

You ca't have it both ways. You who love globalism and the one world gov't, don't you realize that only our Constution stands in the way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

One can only wish. "My way or the highway" has done us absolutely no good for the past 25+ years.

In fact, since virtually all of the John McCains of Congress have been swept from office, we have gridlock instead of action. Hardliners of both parties may influence where things go, but it was the coalition builders that got it done. There have been only a few brief periods in my life in which the House, Senate, and Presidency were firmly on the same page. The rest of the time was either chaos or it had consensus builders among them to get something done.

Seldom to everyone's liking.

But still better than doing nothing.

I prefer gridlock in congress. Everything they do seems to make things worse for us. Change is not a good thing. Unfortunately, however, the judicial and executive branches then overstep their authority.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Spoken like a true racist. How dark does one have to be to be dark in your book?

Race is race, there's nothing racist about discussing race as it relates to bible prophecy. God made race. Satan tries to pretend race doesn't exist, just as Satan pretends gender doesn't exist, which is the basis of these neutral gender programs and such. It's also important to note that race in a biblical sense is not color or genetics, but culture.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Race is race, there's nothing racist about discussing race as it relates to bible prophecy. God made race. Satan tries to pretend race doesn't exist, just as Satan pretends gender doesn't exist, which is the basis of these neutral gender programs and such. It's also important to note that race in a biblical sense is not color or genetics, but culture.

Wait...what? You're the one who related race to color and genetics with your "nations of dark people" and "Indians are descended from Kush". First "race is race" then "race is culture". That's a laughable contradiction. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.


Now you bring in . Show me how is more than a personification of evil like Aphrodite is personification of love. Then show me where in the Bible it says that pretends race and gender don't exist. Or do you just make stuff up about to support your shape-shifting ideology as you go along?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Wait...what? You're the one who related race to color and genetics with your "nations of dark people" and "Indians are descended from Kush". First "race is race" then "race is culture". That's a laughable contradiction. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.


Now you bring in . Show me how is more than a personification of evil like Aphrodite is personification of love. Then show me where in the Bible it says that pretends race and gender don't exist. Or do you just make stuff up about to support your shape-shifting ideology as you go along?

You drew the connection between skin color and race, not me. You brought up the topic of race in your post #1639. My first post on the topic of dark people did not refer to race at all. Skin color is not race, skin color is a trait. Race is more to do with culture, and biologically speaking race has no meaning.

The fact that you brought up the topic of race when I referred to dark people proves that you are the racist as you associate certain races with certain skin colors.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

India like other nations of dark people dont feature in bible prophecy because of the whole ham and kush thing. The Indians are descended from Kush or Ku****es. In India is the Hindu Kush mountains.

I think they will join or follow one of the other great nations...or be destroyed somehow. In short.. the bible overlooks dark people.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You drew the connection between skin color and race, not me. You brought up the topic of race in your post #1639. My first post on the topic of dark people did not refer to race at all. Skin color is not race, skin color is a trait. Race is more to do with culture, and biologically speaking race has no meaning.

The fact that you brought up the topic of race when I referred to dark people proves that you are the racist as you associate certain races with certain skin colors.

So then "nations of dark people" does not refer to race? Race refers to "culture", its not genetics. But this "whole ham and Kush thing" that is not referring to race, to culture, but rather to a "trait"? I am unable to follow this explanation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Does not God's law supersede our constitution? It should. God's law says murder is wrong, but supposedly our constitution gives mothers the "right" to murder the helpless unborn.

You ca't have it both ways.

So you want a theocracy?

Okay, but what is God's law? You mention murder, aka Exodus 20. But let's ignore the next few chapters of Exodus, where God's law speaks of killing all sorts of people, and stoning's. (Let's also ignore that God drowned the whole human race but a handful ... even babies and pre-born's).

Then we have a change in God's law with the adulterous woman. God's law isn't very well defined, and it's not democratic. History shows the results of theocracies, and of those following God's law. It's not pretty.

Perhaps you like Roy Rogers because he's a Christian, and don't care if he's the Westboro Baptist type.

Do you agree with God's law according to the Westboro Baptists?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My approach to bible prophecy is to follow the Generations of Noah and consider the significance of that as related to the nations which will be around during the end times. I find this to be a more robust approach than merely cherry picking verses and trying to figure out how they fit into the bigger picture. It's like trying to complete a jig saw puzzle piece by piece. The Generations of Noah gives us a complete picture of what the "jig saw puzzle" looks like and then we can relate the verses.

We can say confidently that whatever is described concerning Noahs sons will also apply in the end times. This is because of God's order, sovereignty and arrangement. If the bible says God blesses one of Noah's sons, then that nation that is derived from that son will be blessed in the future. Similarly, a nation said to be cursed, like Cush, will not be blessed over time. Cush was a sub-Saharan African and upon whom the curse of Ham fell. Is it only coincidence that nations coming from Cush are not blessed today as much as the sons of Japheth (Western nations)? As Jeremiah 13:23 says - can a Cush ite change his skin?

It's a sign of the PC times I guess that whenever a person's skin color is mentioned then it automatically must mean racism. To clarify my statement about dark people, I do not believe the bible is racist, as it does not attribute skin color as a cause. But generally speaking it does refer to skin color as a consequence. Skin color and health is related, for example we say a person can "turn green with envy", "blue in the face" etc. Color of the skin is not a cause, but a consequence. In other words, the bible does not "overlook" nations of dark people in bible prophecy just because they are dark, but because of what that darkness represented and how it came about. Of greater significance, is the spiritual darkness that is present in Africa and India, that is darker than most other nations with their worship of demons and other evil things.

We can say that God's blessing is not on these nations and for this reason they have not achieved greatness in order to feature significantly in end times events. I can say fairly confidently that no nation that is predominantly comprised of dark people, features significantly (as significantly as USA, Russia, China etc) in bible prophecy. Anyone can check these facts for themselves.

Dark nations in general are covered by Isaiah 18 and any other references to Cush in the Bible. This includes India who are descended from Cush and possibly Shem and Put as well. They are obviously involved but are not major players in end times events.

It is also no coincidence that India is South of Israeli and Russia (kingdom of the North, or Magog). Just as Ethiopia , Egypt etc were South of the ancient Magog. Possibly the exact location of each nation is God's arrangement such that end times prophecy can be fulfilled. God arranged the tectonic plates such that certain nations would reside north, south, east and west of Israel.

To put this another way, if India was located in the region of Iceland, it would be hard to see how the bible prophesy concerning Northern and Southern kingdoms could be true. It is likely significant that there are no nations of dark skinned people in Northern latitudes today or in the end times. Even nature tells us that animals, such as arctic wolves and polar bears that live in high latitudes are white, not black. It would be strange for us to see a polar bear living in Africa or India. But God has ordained these types of animals to live in certain parts of the world.

I could put this another way - in the end times there will be no African or Indian superpower to revival the power of the USA, Russia, China that plays a major role in end times events concerning Israel. The strongest kingdoms are the Northern ones - USA, Russia, China, which all exist at Northern latitudes. These nations are also predominantly lighter skinned than those living in the Southern/equatorial regions. It would be hard for anyone to argue that this is not according to God's arrangement as it relates to bible prophecy.

Goodness bro EvanG, as they say, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

I won't even begin to unpack this nonsense. You are sadly to far out there to be reached with a lifeline.

The next thing you'll be telling us is that The Recovery will bring the Lord back. Is it time to bring up the Cargo Cult's again?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You drew the connection between skin color and race, not me. You brought up the topic of race in your post #1639. My first post on the topic of dark people did not refer to race at all. Skin color is not race, skin color is a trait. Race is more to do with culture, and biologically speaking race has no meaning.

The fact that you brought up the topic of race when I referred to dark people proves that you are the racist as you associate certain races with certain skin colors.

Post #1639 was a question in response to your statement "the bible overlooks dark people". You're talking in circles.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You drew the connection between skin color and race, not me. You brought up the topic of race in your post #1639. My first post on the topic of dark people did not refer to race at all. Skin color is not race, skin color is a trait. Race is more to do with culture, and biologically speaking race has no meaning.

The fact that you brought up the topic of race when I referred to dark people proves that you are the racist as you associate certain races with certain skin colors.

I notice you make no attempt to defend your statements about the devil. That was smart, cuz' the belief in the devil is rationally indefensible. The devil was obviously invented to take God off the hook for the problem of evil which we proved beyond a reasonable doubt on the problem of evil thread.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I notice you make no attempt to defend your statements about the devil. That was smart, cuz' the belief in the devil is rationally indefensible. The devil was obviously invented to take God off the hook for the problem of evil which we proved beyond a reasonable doubt on the problem of evil thread.

So the devil - lucifer - satan - enemy - was just a human fabrication to protect man's imaginary view of God?

And that was all proven on the POE thread?

And someone said that EvanG needs a lifeline?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So the devil - lucifer - satan - enemy - was just a human fabrication to protect man's imaginary view of God?

And that was all proven on the POE thread?

And someone said that EvanG needs a lifeline?

LOL. Right on, bro!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I notice you make no attempt to defend your statements about the devil. That was smart, cuz' the belief in the devil is rationally indefensible. The devil was obviously invented to take God off the hook for the problem of evil which we proved beyond a reasonable doubt on the problem of evil thread.

The devil is also handy to justify killing others : "They're of the devil." Like was said of the Native American Indians : "Look at them dancing around the fire. They're clearly of the devil. So we can kill them -- have to kill them out of loyalty to God -- and take their lands and resources, and their women."

Just like the Hebrews did to the Midianites in Numbers 31, where God tells them kill those evil devils, but keep the over 30,000 virgins. Yea God!!!

[Evangelical]

As usual on this forum I am the one arguing from the basis of facts.

The facts are no dark skinned nations feature strongly in biblical prophecy.
This is despite the fact that in the year 2100 the worlds population will be mostly dark skinned.

ZNP's post implicitly confirms this:

Also, the US is the greatest nation on earth when you compare us with Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Luxembourg, etc.

None of these nations mentioned are descended from Cush.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As usual on this forum I am the one arguing from the basis of facts.

The facts are no dark skinned nations feature strongly in biblical prophecy.
This is despite the fact that in the year 2100 the worlds population will be mostly dark skinned.

The US is a nation of immigrants, unless of course you are referring to native Americans. When the NT refers to the "great" Eagle it is in contrast to other eagles like Mexico. So by extension that term is not merely referring to the US but also to Mexico. So then when you look at the most prominent nations in the Bible you have red, yellow, brown, a melting pot, and of course the most prominent one of all is Middle eastern. That is not to say that Egypt and Ethiopia are not also prominently mentioned as well.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNP's post implicitly confirms this:

Also, the US is the greatest nation on earth when you compare us with Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Luxembourg, etc.

None of these nations mentioned are descended from Cush.

You have taken this quote out of context. I was responding to Ohio who referred to the US as the "greatest nation". My point was that the US is on equal footing with a united Europe. Also, I do not see the term "the great eagle" meaning we are "great" but rather it distinguishes the US from other countries that use the Eagle as their national symbol, like Mexico.

The US, unlike Europe, Russia and China is not "descended" from anything, it was formed based on certain principles that I would argue are in themselves based on the NT. It is a country of immigrants. I use that term in as broad a sense as Ben Carson, including immigrants that came to the US in slave ships against their will. So in this sense we represent the people from the entire planet.

Also, it is relatively clear that the NT refers to the UN.

So if you want to argue the facts the Biblical prophecies include every nation from the four corners of the earth, every race, every tongue, every nation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So the devil - lucifer - satan - enemy - was just a human fabrication to protect man's imaginary view of God?

That's a difficult question. The devil as we know him, as a personification of a independent evil deity, burst upon the scene a couple of hundred years before Jesus, with the book of Enoch. The authors of Enoch had a vivid imagination, so yes, in that case, Satan was a human fabrication.

Then, picking up from Enoch, the gospels pit the devil and Jesus against each other, and the devil is depicted there as a real living person, bargaining with Jesus in the wilderness against God ... not an agent of God, as in the OT.

Thereafter the devil gets blamed for all the bad things, and God is let off the hook.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And that was all proven on the POE thread?

I thought it was proven that the problem of evil fell into God's lap.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And someone said that EvanG needs a lifeline?

Well his answer to how the Bible isn't concerned about the darkies was so out there that it looks like a lifeline can't reach him. Maybe we can send a rescue boat ... if he doesn't drown in his delusions first.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The US is a nation of immigrants, unless of course you are referring to native Americans. When the NT refers to the "great" Eagle it is in contrast to other eagles like Mexico. So by extension that term is not merely referring to the US but also to Mexico. So then when you look at the most prominent nations in the Bible you have red, yellow, brown, a melting pot, and of course the most prominent one of all is Middle eastern. That is not to say that Egypt and Ethiopia are not also prominently mentioned as well.



You have taken this quote out of context. I was responding to Ohio who referred to the US as the "greatest nation". My point was that the US is on equal footing with a united Europe. Also, I do not see the term "the great eagle" meaning we are "great" but rather it distinguishes the US from other countries that use the Eagle as their national symbol, like Mexico.

The US, unlike Europe, Russia and China is not "descended" from anything, it was formed based on certain principles that I would argue are in themselves based on the NT. It is a country of immigrants. I use that term in as broad a sense as Ben Carson, including immigrants that came to the US in slave ships against their will. So in this sense we represent the people from the entire planet.

Also, it is relatively clear that the NT refers to the UN.

So if you want to argue the facts the Biblical prophecies include every nation from the four corners of the earth, every race, every tongue, every nation.

India is a nation of population 1.3 billion and the US by comparison is a tiny 350 million (approximately).

Why doesn't India, one of the most populous nations in the world (and even more by the time Jesus returns) feature in biblical prophecy as a great nation?

Why does the Eagle have to represent America? The greatest nation symbolized by the Eagle could be India. Eagle could refer to the Garuda in Hinduism, and given India is of much larger population than the US, the great nation represented by the Eagle could be India, not the US.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

India is a nation of population 1.3 billion and the US by comparison is a tiny 350 million (approximately).

Why doesn't India, one of the most populous nations in the world (and even more by the time Jesus returns) feature in biblical prophecy as a great nation?

Why does the Eagle have to represent America? The greatest nation symbolized by the Eagle could be India. Eagle could refer to the Garuda in Hinduism, and given India is of much larger population than the US, the great nation represented by the Eagle could be India, not the US.

From all I have read, liberals like you dont think America is great, rather the blight of the world, the root of every evil, the cause of all problems, the cancer of the whole world.

My have you changed your attitude!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's a difficult question. The devil as we know him, as a personification of a independent evil deity, burst upon the scene a couple of hundred years before Jesus, with the book of Enoch. The authors of Enoch had a vivid imagination, so yes, in that case, Satan was a human fabrication.

Then, picking up from Enoch, the gospels pit the devil and Jesus against each other, and the devil is depicted there as a real living person, bargaining with Jesus in the wilderness against God ... not an agent of God, as in the OT.

Thereafter the devil gets blamed for all the bad things, and God is let off the hook.


I thought it was proven that the problem of evil fell into God's lap.

The POE thread PROVED something?!?

The devil burst upon the scene in the book of Enoch?!?

Too funny. This place is crazy town.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The POE thread PROVED something?!?

The devil burst upon the scene in the book of Enoch?!?

Too funny. This place is crazy town.

Literally rotflmao. Having trouble typing ... tears rolling. I guess you liked my little ditty on the Satan.

I typed it with love ... after reading all that crap about the devil over the years (and watching the movie Noah(2014)). If you haven't read the book of Enoch, you should. The canon quotes it. It's on the web, or I could send you a digital copy. Just ask.

And talk to Dancing (RIP - she's no longer with us on LCD) and get the OT Jewish take on the devil. He's not very personified as an independent evil deity there. He's an agent of God, and "the satan” (as he is termed in the OT) is a member of God’s heavenly council.

The devil had to pass thru the ages of the book of Enoch to break free from God to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. Maybe by then he grew up, left home (heaven), and became an independent agent ... to tempt Jesus ... so God wouldn't get the blame for doing it.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

From all I have read, liberals like you dont think America is great, rather the blight of the world, the root of every evil, the cause of all problems, the cancer of the whole world.

My have you changed your attitude!

My post regarding the nations in the end times is not motivated by politics, but simple observations:

India is greater than the US (in terms of population size).

Why India is not in the bible?

One plausible reason is because they are descendants of Cush (which means black). I have discovered that descendants of Cush do not really feature in biblical prophecy.

I mean when was the last time you heard a story of biblical prophecy concerning India, the "great Eagle" (or great Garuda in Hinduism).

There are some other ways India is better than the USA, a number are listed here:

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-in...than-the-u-s-a

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

India is a nation of population 1.3 billion and the US by comparison is a tiny 350 million (approximately).

Why doesn't India, one of the most populous nations in the world (and even more by the time Jesus returns) feature in biblical prophecy as a great nation?

Why does the Eagle have to represent America? The greatest nation symbolized by the Eagle could be India. Eagle could refer to the Garuda in Hinduism, and given India is of much larger population than the US, the great nation represented by the Eagle could be India, not the US.

Are you saying that you think the reference to the "great eagle" in the NT is referring to India? Or are you asking why it doesn't?

As to featuring into prophecy, the reformed Roman Empire (Europe) features into more prophecies than any other nation. They have the Beast and they have the AntiChrist. Likewise the prophecies for Gog and Magog are equally unflattering. So it seems to me that not being featured in the end times prophecies is not some kind of blight on your reputation but contrariwise.

[zeek]

50+ innocent people die by automatic rifle. 200+ wounded. If past is precedent, NRA owned Congress will do nothing.

[zeek]

"Big water"? Concrete thinking. One more sign of incipient dementia. "Forgets names and events. Is occasionally lost. Decisions are hard to make. May realize that they are forgetful. Accuses others of actions. May be angry, irritable, demanding and/or stubborn." Time to implement Constitutional Amendment 25 before it's too late.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

50+ innocent people die by automatic rifle. 200+ wounded. If past is precedent, NRA owned Congress will do nothing.

Big lawsuit -- the Casinos wanted this on the strip to promote their businesses, but in so doing they created a kill box. Should have had the foresight to carefully check out all the overlooking apartments.

Great case for neglect. Surely someone could have foreseen a person with a grudge. This guy had a lawsuit against the casino and settled. Wouldn't take a genius to figure out that his location in that apartment was something to check out.

I imagine there are lawyers right now lining up a class action suit. Who says the "casino always wins".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Big water"? Concrete thinking. One more sign of incipient dementia. "Forgets names and events. Is occasionally lost. Decisions are hard to make. May realize that they are forgetful. Accuses others of actions. May be angry, irritable, demanding and/or stubborn." Time to implement Constitutional Amendment 25 before it's too late.

Big supporter of Pence I take it.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Big lawsuit -- the Casinos wanted this on the strip to promote their businesses, but in so doing they created a kill box. Should have had the foresight to carefully check out all the overlooking apartments.

Great case for neglect. Surely someone could have foreseen a person with a grudge. This guy had a lawsuit against the casino and settled. Wouldn't take a genius to figure out that his location in that apartment was something to check out.

I imagine there are lawyers right now lining up a class action suit. Who says the "casino always wins".

It's more fake news like Sandy Hook so Obama can take away our guns

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you saying that you think the reference to the "great eagle" in the NT is referring to India? Or are you asking why it doesn't?

As to featuring into prophecy, the reformed Roman Empire (Europe) features into more prophecies than any other nation. They have the Beast and they have the AntiChrist. Likewise the prophecies for Gog and Magog are equally unflattering. So it seems to me that not being featured in the end times prophecies is not some kind of blight on your reputation but contrariwise.

Good thought re roman empire. I think the great eagle must be Germany not the US. They are the strongest reformed roman Empire and have the history of Anti semitism. The eagle has also been their symbol for hundreds of years.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Good thought re roman empire. I think the great eagle must be Germany not the US. They are the strongest reformed roman Empire and have the history of Anti semitism. The eagle has also been their symbol for hundreds of years.

Germany has been defeated twice by the US in war, yet Germany is "the Great Eagle"? Why? In what sense are they "great" compared to the US?

Why would Germany be referred to as "the wilderness".

Why would those fleeing the Middle East take the wings of the Great Eagle to the wilderness? You don't need to fly by plane to Germany and trains would probably move more people quicker and easier.

If you agree that there are prophecies concerning Europe being reformed then wouldn't Germany be part of that group?

If you don't agree then there are at least 5 or 6 very difficult questions to answer about other prophecies.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's more fake news like Sandy Hook so Obama can take away our guns

The FBI said he had no ISIS affiliation therefore this is an American terrorist.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Germany has been defeated twice by the US in war, yet Germany is "the Great Eagle"? Why? In what sense are they "great" compared to the US?

Why would Germany be referred to as "the wilderness".

Why would those fleeing the Middle East take the wings of the Great Eagle to the wilderness? You don't need to fly by plane to Germany and trains would probably move more people quicker and easier.

If you agree that there are prophecies concerning Europe being reformed then wouldn't Germany be part of that group?

If you don't agree then there are at least 5 or 6 very difficult questions to answer about other prophecies.

Just other possibilities referring to Eagles. The verse in question is probably misinterpreted anyway as it says the woman is given wings like those of an eagle. It doesn't actually say the woman is going to a place symbolized by an eagle. The eagle is the woman, not the USA, Germany, or India.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The FBI said he had no ISIS affiliation therefore this is an American terrorist.

I would have thought you'd see the irony.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Just other possibilities referring to Eagles. The verse in question is probably misinterpreted anyway as it says the woman is given wings like those of an eagle. It doesn't actually say the woman is going to a place symbolized by an eagle. The eagle is the woman, not the USA, Germany, or India.

The woman is the great eagle? Who are the minor eagles? Germany, US, and Mexico? Then wouldn't the woman be a nation and not signify God's people?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I would have thought you'd see the irony.

Angry millionaires, a new breed of terrorist. Hate is evolving. Maybe the US military is experimenting with some kind of drug similar to the Kingsman plot line.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Angry millionaires, a new breed of terrorist. Hate is evolving. Maybe the US military is experimenting with some kind of drug similar to the Kingsman plot line.

Per White House, now is not the right time to discuss gun control. On the other hand, it is a good time to be shot.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Per White House, now is not the right time to discuss gun control. On the other hand, it is a good time to be shot.

Per main stream media at CBS, there will be no sympathy for all the victims in Vegas since they are all Country Music fans who voted for Trump.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Per White House, now is not the right time to discuss gun control. On the other hand, it is a good time to be shot.

In the last 2 years there have been 20 mass shootings in the US, after each one they have argued that "now is not the time to discuss gun control". By this reckoning you should wait a few weeks before raising this. The problem is that a few weeks later there is another mass shooting. We are in a Catch-22.

Also, what about that argument that the best deterrent to a man with a gun is another man with a gun. If all those concert goers had pulled out concealed handguns and started firing at the hotel would that have been the solution?!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In the last 2 years there have been 20 mass shootings in the US, after each one they have argued that "now is not the time to discuss gun control". By this reckoning you should wait a few weeks before raising this. The problem is that a few weeks later there is another mass shooting. We are in a Catch-22.

Also, what about that argument that the best deterrent to a man with a gun is another man with a gun. If all those concert goers had pulled out concealed handguns and started firing at the hotel would that have been the solution?!

The reason all that is done is talk, talk, talk about gun control is that guns are permitted by the 2nd Amend.

I thought we already had laws preventing the possession of automatic weapons for private citizens.

Every month Chicago has the same number of murders, and they have total gun bans, and it don't help those people from getting killed.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The reason all that is done is talk, talk, talk about gun control is that guns are permitted by the 2nd Amend.

I thought we already had laws preventing the possession of automatic weapons for private citizens.

Every month Chicago has the same number of murders, and they have total gun bans, and it don't help those people from getting killed.

Yes, I get the fact that there is little or no practical way to "outlaw guns". But that is not the only option.

For example, in Chicago it would be a simple matter to solve the backlog in crimes if they simply computerized the database on the guns. Instead that is "illegal" because the NRA. As a result the data on each gun identifying it from the shell casing and grooves on the bullet are kept on paper files for millions of guns. The weight of this paper is so heavy they cannot keep it all in the warehouse (for fear the floor will collapse) so they keep a lot of it in trailers outside in the parking lot. If you want to identify a gun from shell casings or the bullet you must sift through millions of pages of data stored in various locations. Obviously no one does that, so our ability to identify guns used in crimes is greatly curtailed. Change that law and we'll save money, solve crimes and put murders away at a much faster rate. Why would anyone object? Because those killers are some of the best customers these gun makers have. They will buy 10 or more, use them once and then toss them in the river and buy more. The gun makers don't want to lose those customers. What is the logic in saying it is OK to have this information on useless paper files, but it is illegal to digitize it so that it would be accessible, searchable and useful?

2nd, if these guns were purchased legally in the State of Nevada, apparently they were, then by law the hotel might not be allowed to prohibit them being brought into the hotel (don't know Nevada's particular law on carrying guns -- but so far no one has said this man broke any laws). If he is not breaking the law in bringing the guns into the hotel then what is the hotel supposed to do? Therefore you can make certain laws that although you have the right to carry a gun you need to advise the owners of a building, if they request, that you are. Likewise a hotel can put restrictions, like you are allowed one handgun, but no machine guns.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought we already had laws preventing the possession of automatic weapons for private citizens.

Yes, you cannot "sell" an automatic weapon. But as this case proves it is a simple matter to undo the modification they put in that converts an automatic to a semi automatic. It is called "bump stock", it is legal, and it allows you to fire 400-800 rounds per minute and still not be classified as "automatic". (https://www.yahoo.com/news/las-vegas...031700794.html)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The reason all that is done is talk, talk, talk about gun control is that guns are permitted by the 2nd Amend.

I thought we already had laws preventing the possession of automatic weapons for private citizens.

Every month Chicago has the same number of murders, and they have total gun bans, and it don't help those people from getting killed.

First. Bro Ohio, the gun laws in Nevada are so loosey-goosey that a citizen can buy automatic weapons, and silencers btw, but they have to be registered with the Fed, which requires a background check (Nevada doesn't require background checks to buy any other gun). And bro Ohio, a couple of days ago I saw in the news that a rich citizen bought a WWII tank, and parked it at his house. Imagine Stephen Paddock with that weapon.

They say, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. But not at the country music festival in Las Vegas. Everyone there could have been armed and it wouldn't have saved one life. It would have likely caused more deaths by panicked friendly fire. Everyone would have start shooting each other.

Second. Bro Z there's no way to outlaw guns unless the whole world does away with guns and all other weapons. Everyone, including the military and police would have to lay down their guns.

Fat chance of that.

As long as good guys have guns bad guys will have them. As long as good guys have nukes, bad guys will have them. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. But the guns sure make it handy.

As a result there's no fix for domestic terrorism. Maybe it's a spiritual/societal problem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe it's a spiritual/societal problem.

Agreed.

When the Lord Jesus walked the earth, He went about casting out demons. Today we dare not mention that demons still exist, but when there is no other answer ...

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Agreed.

When the Lord Jesus walked the earth, He went about casting out demons. Today we dare not mention that demons still exist, but when there is no other answer ...

Oh no, not another Ghostbusters movie.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Oh no, not another Ghostbusters movie.

Are there ANY verses left in your "Bible?"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are there ANY verses left in your "Bible?"

Bart Ehrman says that the original text was presented in run on words and therefore there weren't any verses.

[Evangelical]

Has anyone else thought the numbers of injuries should be higher?

Crowd of 22,000 people. Gun firing for 5 minutes at 800 rounds per minute. That's 4000 rounds fired towards 22,000 people.

600 people injured or killed, 15% of bullets hit their target. So there is a 15% chance of being injured or killed by a crazy with a gun, or 1 in 6 or 7 people will be injured or killed by a gun in such a mass shooting situation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Has anyone else thought the numbers of injuries should be higher?

Crowd of 22,000 people. Gun firing for 5 minutes at 800 rounds per minute. That's 4000 rounds fired towards 22,000 people.

600 people injured or killed, 15% of bullets hit their target. So there is a 15% chance of being injured or killed by a crazy with a gun, or 1 in 6 or 7 people will be injured or killed by a gun in such a mass shooting situation.

I find it absolutely astounding that this man could do this. The only reason I can see for his value is that he could get that room without arousing suspicion. Why does he need the cameras to watch for police if his plan is to commit suicide?

How could his brother not know anything at all about this?

Why would anyone do this, committing suicide, without trying to make some kind of statement?

If he went crazy surely someone had to realize this. If he didn't go crazy then how do you explain this?

But 15% of bullets hit people, that does not seem strange to me at all. On the contrary that does sound reasonable.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I find it absolutely astounding that this man could do this. The only reason I can see for his value is that he could get that room without arousing suspicion. Why does he need the cameras to watch for police if his plan is to commit suicide?

How could his brother not know anything at all about this?

Why would anyone do this, committing suicide, without trying to make some kind of statement?

If he went crazy surely someone had to realize this. If he didn't go crazy then how do you explain this?

But 15% of bullets hit people, that does not seem strange to me at all. On the contrary that does sound reasonable.

Based on the limited info we have so far, the Las Vegas shooter doesn't seem to fit the usual profiles. Brain disorders are sometimes implicated in murder/ suicides. For example, the University of Texas tower shooter in 1966, was found to have brain tumor on autopsy. If the Las Vegas shooter didn't destroy the evidence beyond the point where relevant tests are possible by blowing his brains out, a brain tumor or other brain disorder should be ruled out.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I find it absolutely astounding that this man could do this. The only reason I can see for his value is that he could get that room without arousing suspicion. Why does he need the cameras to watch for police if his plan is to commit suicide?

How could his brother not know anything at all about this?

Why would anyone do this, committing suicide, without trying to make some kind of statement?

If he went crazy surely someone had to realize this. If he didn't go crazy then how do you explain this?

But 15% of bullets hit people, that does not seem strange to me at all. On the contrary that does sound reasonable.

I think it's a little early to expect much accurate info about why Paddock did this. So far he planned it before hand, successfully prepared it, and pull it off with great effect. Unless he had a deep hate for country music and fans, this doesn't make sense.

The investigation is well under way, we'll know more as time goes on. Authorities haven't even been able to talk to Paddock's girlfriend, Marilou Danley, who was the closest to him.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I think it's a little early to expect much accurate info about why Paddock did this.

On the contrary if he was a terrorist, if he had an agenda, if he was making a statement I would have expected that to have been made at the time of the event.

If he had a beef with this concert, or hotel, or casino, etc. I would expect that to be readily apparent as a long standing feud that was documented.

Since all of that is missing the only thing I can consider at this point is a mental health issue. I agree with Zeek that this needs to be examined. However, gamblers interact with others, it would be very surprising to me that no one else noticed an issue prior to the 18 gun assault with 10 suitcases. How does a guy who has lost it mentally carry out this attack?

Originally Posted by awareness

So far he planned it before hand, successfully prepared it, and pull it off with great effect.

Which also does not make sense unless you go to some bizarre Bond plot / Manchurian candidate type plot.

[zeek]

I think Tillerson is on to something...

"Tillerson Says He’s Not Quitting After Report He Called Trump a ‘Moron’"

I've been calling it early dementia in a man with malignant narcissistic personality disorder.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...r-trump-rebuke

Of course, Trump calls it "fake news" but that he has contradicted Tillerson's statements on several occasions is an incontrovertible fact. Trump doesn't work well with others. He frequently contradicts, denigrates and undermines his subordinates. He's a one man disaster as POTUS. I wish him an early retirement.

No, I'm not a fan of Pence. I disagree with him on many issues and think that he's been a disgusting sycophant to Trump. But, at least he seems to be mentally competent which Trump clearly isn't.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've been calling it early dementia in a man with malignant narcissistic personality disorder.

And you supported Bill and Hillary?

Some of their tantrums are legendary. Books have been written. They made the NYT Best Seller lists.

You're not the first so-called "professional" counselor I have met who supposedly had identified his/her biases (including politics) and kept them all at arm's length.

But for the naive progressive Kool-Aid drinkers like yourself, you should read What Happened. Again and again.

[awareness]

To be honest there's so much going on, and coming at me so hot and heavy, that it makes my head swim. And that's just keeping up with Trump.

Which reminds me. Trump likes to make everything about him. Him, him, him, even tweeting in the third person. My question is, to myself : If I try to keep up with Trump aren't I playing into his personality cult spell & mentality?

I sure wish he'd make America white, I mean, great again. Then there'd be a line of trucks delivering cords of wood, neatly stacked in ricks ; hard woods, like Oak, Hickory, White Ash, with Cedar thrown in for wonderful scent.

Alas, I don't think Trump was thinking about me when he contrived that slogan. How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Answer -> More than me.

Back to Paddock : He also had rooms booked overlooking Lollapalooza in Chicago. So it wasn't that he had something against country music.

Maybe he just hated people. What's that called? Oh I remember, Misanthropy. Maybe he was just a down home homegrown misanthrope.

I think that as the population grows, and humans look ever more uglier, we'll see more of that. Paddock makes me hate humans.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Paddock makes me hate humans.

Once again you are looking at the wrong things.

Look at all the many heroes instead of the one evil murderer.

For me, when things make no sense whatsoever, I look behind the scenes to the spiritual forces of evil. Too bad ole zeek is hung up on ghostbusters, and has become ignorant of the words of scripture.

One commentator was onto something last night mentioning how Paddock was a professional gambler, adept at hiding everything from sight.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

To be honest there's so much going on, and coming at me so hot and heavy, that it makes my head swim. And that's just keeping up with Trump.

Which reminds me. Trump likes to make everything about him. Him, him, him, even tweeting in the third person. My question is, to myself : If I try to keep up with Trump aren't I playing into his personality cult spell & mentality?

So you would prefer to hear it all about "Hillary, Hillary, Hillary" and "Her, Her, Her"?

Oh that's right, that's all I been hearing!!!

And What Happened -- Stupid is as Stupid writes.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One commentator was onto something last night mentioning how Paddock was a professional gambler, adept at hiding everything from sight.

It is difficult to believe that he did this himself, without help. How much did he know about guns to get the bump stock and the thing that hides the shots fired?

He seems to have carefully planned this. Many people don't realize that if you are going to fire 400 -- 800 shots per minute your gun will jam and you will need multiple guns. Also, not many realize that a hand gun would be useless to fire from that distance, but a rifle is not very useful in a gun battle within the hotel. Hence he had multiple guns, both rifles and hand guns.

Yet on the other hand he seems to have planned on escape which seems idiotic.

This makes me think there is another person.

As for being able to hide his intentions, virtually impossible. We aren't talking about hiding a poker hand for 5 minutes, we are talking about the planning of a horrific attack for what reason? If you are angry about something surely those closest to you know it. Also, anyone planning this would have to essentially stop all plans for any day after this event, which would also be a very big tipoff to those closest to them. Supposedly he began purchasing the guns and explosives and rounds for this a year ago. For one year he hid this from everyone?

Also, how does someone pull off such a horrific attack while being so cool that for a couple of days prior to the attack he is playing poker for 8 hours a day?

Why isn't the idea that someone just framed him given a serious consideration?

The planning involved and the 8 hours a day spent in the casino playing poker immediately before the attack rules out a psychotic break.

To me there are 3 logical explanations for something like this:

1. Psychotic break -- rule that out.

2. Angry over something (divorce, bankruptcy, lawsuit, ideology) -- that appears to have been ruled out as well.

3. Framed (patsy).

If you were going to do this attack and wanted to get away you wouldn't book the room yourself, instead you would break into someone else's room on the 30th floor, a high roller, a retired millionaire who plays poker 8 hours a day. you would set up cameras and leave his dead body behind in the hopes that you can escape in the confusion.

Consider how stupid it appears that he planned to "escape". He checks into the room in his name, breaks the windows, leaves 23 guns purchased by him along with the ammo, sets off the fire alarm. In his car there is explosives. In his two houses there are more guns. In what world does this guy think he is escaping? Prior to the attack he spends 3 days playing poker, caught on their cameras for an undeniable ID.

This tells me there are two people. One with the expertise and time to plan this operation, the other the one who takes the fall for it, provides the ideal room, and is easy enough to frame since he doesn't spend time at his two homes. One person plans on escaping by offering up the other guy.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is difficult to believe that he did this himself, without help. How much did he know about guns to get the bump stock and the thing that hides the shots fired?

He seems to have carefully planned this. Many people don't realize that if you are going to fire 400 -- 800 shots per minute your gun will jam and you will need multiple guns. Also, not many realize that a hand gun would be useless to fire from that distance, but a rifle is not very useful in a gun battle within the hotel. Hence he had multiple guns, both rifles and hand guns.

Yet on the other hand he seems to have planned on escape which seems idiotic.

This makes me think there is another person.

As for being able to hide his intentions, virtually impossible. We aren't talking about hiding a poker hand for 5 minutes, we are talking about the planning of a horrific attack for what reason? If you are angry about something surely those closest to you know it. Also, anyone planning this would have to essentially stop all plans for any day after this event, which would also be a very big tipoff to those closest to them. Supposedly he began purchasing the guns and explosives and rounds for this a year ago. For one year he hid this from everyone?

Also, how does someone pull off such a horrific attack while being so cool that for a couple of days prior to the attack he is playing poker for 8 hours a day?

Why isn't the idea that someone just framed him given a serious consideration?

The planning involved and the 8 hours a day spent in the casino playing poker immediately before the attack rules out a psychotic break.

To me there are 3 logical explanations for something like this:

1. Psychotic break -- rule that out.

2. Angry over something (divorce, bankruptcy, lawsuit, ideology) -- that appears to have been ruled out as well.

3. Framed (patsy).

If you were going to do this attack and wanted to get away you wouldn't book the room yourself, instead you would break into someone else's room on the 30th floor, a high roller, a retired millionaire who plays poker 8 hours a day. you would set up cameras and leave his dead body behind in the hopes that you can escape in the confusion.

Right. There's the possibility that it was domestic terrorism. I understand that the possibility he had help is still an open question for investigators. Reminds one a bit of Timothy McVeigh. Then too conspiracy minded folks are already crying "false flag". Since Obama isn't there to blame any more, it's the "deep state" wants to take away our guns. This is not a hypothesis for them, they KNOW it and if you aren't convinced it's just because you've drunk the Kool Aid. Get your bump stock now.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is difficult to believe that he did this himself, without help. How much did he know about guns to get the bump stock and the thing that hides the shots fired?

He seems to have carefully planned this. Many people don't realize that if you are going to fire 400 -- 800 shots per minute your gun will jam and you will need multiple guns. Also, not many realize that a hand gun would be useless to fire from that distance, but a rifle is not very useful in a gun battle within the hotel. Hence he had multiple guns, both rifles and hand guns.

Yet on the other hand he seems to have planned on escape which seems idiotic.

This makes me think there is another person.

As for being able to hide his intentions, virtually impossible. We aren't talking about hiding a poker hand for 5 minutes, we are talking about the planning of a horrific attack for what reason? If you are angry about something surely those closest to you know it. Also, anyone planning this would have to essentially stop all plans for any day after this event, which would also be a very big tipoff to those closest to them. Supposedly he began purchasing the guns and explosives and rounds for this a year ago. For one year he hid this from everyone?

Also, how does someone pull off such a horrific attack while being so cool that for a couple of days prior to the attack he is playing poker for 8 hours a day?

Why isn't the idea that someone just framed him given a serious consideration?

The planning involved and the 8 hours a day spent in the casino playing poker immediately before the attack rules out a psychotic break.

To me there are 3 logical explanations for something like this:

1. Psychotic break -- rule that out.

2. Angry over something (divorce, bankruptcy, lawsuit, ideology) -- that appears to have been ruled out as well.

3. Framed (patsy).

If you were going to do this attack and wanted to get away you wouldn't book the room yourself, instead you would break into someone else's room on the 30th floor, a high roller, a retired millionaire who plays poker 8 hours a day. you would set up cameras and leave his dead body behind in the hopes that you can escape in the confusion.

Consider how stupid it appears that he planned to "escape". He checks into the room in his name, breaks the windows, leaves 23 guns purchased by him along with the ammo, sets off the fire alarm. In his car there is explosives. In his two houses there are more guns. In what world does this guy think he is escaping? Prior to the attack he spends 3 days playing poker, caught on their cameras for an undeniable ID.

This tells me there are two people. One with the expertise and time to plan this operation, the other the one who takes the fall for it, provides the ideal room, and is easy enough to frame since he doesn't spend time at his two homes. One person plans on escaping by offering up the other guy.

But they got lots of surveillance cameras showing who went into the room multiple times with lots of suitcases. Has they one second of camera footage on an accomplice, that picture would be splattered across the airwaves. But, so far, there is none. No accomplice at the hotel to speak of.

But Paddock had to have practiced his weaponry ahead of time. Where are all the sportsmen who knew him from the range? Perhaps he was able to shoot weapons at will in Nevada. In my small town, we got this gunslinger on the other side of the valley who shoots endlessly without police interference. It's not illegal to discharge firearms here. We have heard him shoot 100x in succession, not with an automatic weapon, but with semiautomatics, non-stop perhaps twice a second.

Obviously this guy in Nevada had his plans in place since he gambled 8 straight hours prior to shooting. Apparently that was his means to silence his own conscience, whatever was left of it.

Apparently this "Bump-Stock" attachment is not at all complicated to install. The internet will provide instructions for almost everything. There's probably a "Bump-Stock" youtube, but I wouldn't dare even to google that now. If it's not illegal, then why would any gun shop owner take notice.

I heard he only shot for 10-12 minutes, during which he shot thousands of rounds. Security was signaled by falling glass, smoke alarms, or reports by other residents, all of which he might not have considered would be that fast. Perhaps he stopped shooting, not because his guns all jammed, but because he had already determined that he could disappear in the chaos. Then the hall cameras showed he was in trouble, and he unloaded hundreds of rounds in the hallway thinking he could still run.

As others have said, criminals are not the brightest of folks. His dad was a psychopathic criminal, and it was in his dna. It was reported that his one in CA had an extensive police report.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. There's the possibility that it was domestic terrorism. I understand that the possibility he had help is still an open question for investigators. Reminds one a bit of Timothy McVeigh. Then too conspiracy minded folks are already crying "false flag". Since Obama isn't there to blame any more, it's the "deep state" wants to take away our guns. This is not a hypothesis for them, they KNOW it and if you aren't convinced it's just because you've drunk the Kool Aid. Get your bump stock now.

He never left DC. He still lives with his senior advisor Jarrett.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So you would prefer to hear it all about "Hillary, Hillary, Hillary" and "Her, Her, Her"?

Oh that's right, that's all I been hearing!!!

And What Happened -- Stupid is as Stupid writes.

I was not a Hillary supporter. I was done with the Clintoons AND Bush's.

I threw my vote away. I wrote in Ted Cruz.

What Happened? What happen is we had a black prez for 8 years (that's what Trump meant by great again) ... and we weren't ready for a female prez. That happened, and Hillary happened ... nough said ... Trump would have won without trying.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But they got lots of surveillance cameras showing who went into the room multiple times with lots of suitcases. Has they one second of camera footage on an accomplice, that picture would be splattered across the airwaves. But, so far, there is none. No accomplice at the hotel to speak of.

Yes, I expect the FBI to be pouring over all of the footage and try to account for every single person in that hotel.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But Paddock had to have practiced his weaponry ahead of time. Where are all the sportsmen who knew him from the range? Perhaps he was able to shoot weapons at will in Nevada. In my small town, we got this gunslinger on the other side of the valley who shoots endlessly without police interference. It's not illegal to discharge firearms here. We have heard him shoot 100x in succession, not with an automatic weapon, but with semiautomatics, non-stop perhaps twice a second.

Yes, I would expect you can find someone in one of these gun shops that told him about the bump stock and other questions he must have had. If not he must have checked a book out of the library or done some google searches. One way or another they can verify that he is the one that did that. If they can't find that then I don't believe it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously this guy in Nevada had his plans in place since he gambled 8 straight hours prior to shooting. Apparently that was his means to silence his own conscience, whatever was left of it.

Just like someone about to play in the Superbowl deciding to play 8 hours of poker first. What seems more reasonable to me is that he was doing what he always did as a retired millionaire. He played about 8 hours, probably a full day for him. It could have been he had no idea about what was going to go down till he walked into the room and discovered the arsenal. Then from that point on he stayed "holed up" eating "room service".

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apparently this "Bump-Stock" attachment is not at all complicated to install. The internet will provide instructions for almost everything. There's probably a "Bump-Stock" youtube, but I wouldn't dare even to google that now. If it's not illegal, then why would any gun shop owner take notice.

Agreed. If he did an internet search for how to convert his gun, or for what gun to buy and what attachments to use, then that would support this theory. But without that internet search it seems implausible.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I heard he only shot for 10-12 minutes, during which he shot thousands of rounds. Security was signaled by falling glass, smoke alarms, or reports by other residents, all of which he might not have considered would be that fast. Perhaps he stopped shooting, not because his guns all jammed, but because he had already determined that he could disappear in the chaos. Then the hall cameras showed he was in trouble, and he unloaded hundreds of rounds in the hallway thinking he could still run.

He shot for 12 minutes, but they didn't find him dead until 90 minutes after the shooting began. What happened during those 78 minutes? Did someone shoot him and leave?

Originally Posted by Ohio

As others have said, criminals are not the brightest of folks. His dad was a psychopathic criminal, and it was in his dna. It was reported that his one in CA had an extensive police report.

As a rule criminals are stupid because they spend all their energy planning the crime and very little energy into how to get away / clean up their crime. This crime seems very different. If there is a 2nd person this person spent more time planning his escape than he did on how to perpetrate the crime.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, I would expect you can find someone in one of these gun shops that told him about the bump stock and other questions he must have had. If not he must have checked a book out of the library or done some google searches. One way or another they can verify that he is the one that did that. If they can't find that then I don't believe it.

Just like someone about to play in the Superbowl deciding to play 8 hours of poker first. What seems more reasonable to me is that he was doing what he always did as a retired millionaire. He played about 8 hours, probably a full day for him. It could have been he had no idea about what was going to go down till he walked into the room and discovered the arsenal. Then from that point on he stayed "holed up" eating "room service".

Agreed. If he did an internet search for how to convert his gun, or for what gun to buy and what attachments to use, then that would support this theory. But without that internet search it seems implausible.

He shot for 12 minutes, but they didn't find him dead until 90 minutes after the shooting began. What happened during those 78 minutes? Did someone shoot him and leave?

How do we know he never searched the web? Maybe he used DuckDuckGo search engine, or something that hid his tracks. Or maybe he researched on another's computer.

Interesting theory about a second person. How do we know Paddock killed himself? Perhaps each broken window had a different shooter, and then Paddock's death was made to look like a suicide. Why bust two windows?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I was not a Hillary supporter. I was done with the Clintoons AND Bush's.

I threw my vote away. I wrote in Ted Cruz.

What Happened? What happen is we had a black prez for 8 years (that's what Trump meant by great again) ... and we weren't ready for a female prez. That happened, and Hillary happened ... nough said ... Trump would have won without trying.

You keep looking at race and gender, thinking Trump's "deplorables" had to be motivated by racism and misogyny. That's the endless message from the MSM.

Why can't you understand the many Americans just hated what Obama and Clinton stood for? It was not their gender and color, it was their policies, it was their history. Is this fact just too difficult for liberals to get? Hillary lost because of serious credibility issues. She had the media behind her, hollywood, sports stars, big money, women, universities, comedians, etc. No one could believe she could have lost.

I believe she lost because people were afraid to be honest with pollsters. They were intimidated. Had the projections been closer, Hillary and company would have fought harder in the few key battleground states.

[zeek]

A glimmer hope for the future--The NRA and some Republican Congressman endorsed tighter restrictions on devices that allow a rifle to fire bullets as fast as a machine gun. Many dealers and distributors are taking such devises off the market after a momentary spike in sales following the Las Vegas massacre.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You keep looking at race and gender, thinking Trump's "deplorables" had to be motivated by racism and misogyny. That's the endless message from the MSM.

Why can't you understand the many Americans just hated what Obama and Clinton stood for? It was not their gender and color, it was their policies, it was their history. Is this fact just too difficult for liberals to get? Hillary lost because of serious credibility issues. She had the media behind her, hollywood, sports stars, big money, women, universities, comedians, etc. No one could believe she could have lost.

I believe she lost because people were afraid to be honest with pollsters. They were intimidated. Had the projections been closer, Hillary and company would have fought harder in the few key battleground states.

Be that as it may, evidence shows Trump is a white supremacist so if folks didn't vote for him because he was a racist, they voted for him in spite of it. Maybe they hated Hilary Clinton like you do, and he was the lesser evil. Some have said as much. In my judgment she was the lesser evil. I wasn't looking forward to another Clinton presidency, I would have much preferred Bernie Sanders.

But, Trump's the already the worst president I've seen in my lifetime. He makes Nixon and Bush II look good. Show me where any previous POTUS has publicly contradicted and denigrated his own Attorney general, Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense. You claim it's normal. I don't think you can back it up. I think they're doing credible jobs trying to ameliorate the consequences of his stupidity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Be that as it may, evidence shows Trump is a white supremacist so if folks didn't vote for him because he was a racist, they voted for him in spite of it. Maybe they hated Hilary Clinton like you do, and he was the lesser evil. Some have said as much. In my judgment she was the lesser evil. I wasn't looking forward to another Clinton presidency, I would have much preferred Bernie Sanders.

But, Trump's the already the worst president I've seen in my lifetime. He makes Nixon and Bush II look good. Show me where any previous POTUS has publicly contradicted and denigrated his own Attorney general, Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense. You claim it's normal. I don't think you can back it up. I think they're doing credible jobs trying to ameliorate the consequences of his stupidity.

Evidence?

Well ... This IS America and everyone is entitled to believe any nonsense they desire.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do we know he never searched the web? Maybe he used DuckDuckGo search engine, or something that hid his tracks. Or maybe he researched on another's computer.

Interesting theory about a second person. How do we know Paddock killed himself? Perhaps each broken window had a different shooter, and then Paddock's death was made to look like a suicide. Why bust two windows?

What seems more likely to me is that he was an unwitting accomplice. So far all the searches on his phone could have been done by someone who hacked his phone. I find it bizarre that he would begin his interest in this plot by covering his tracks and then end it without the slightest concern to cover his tracks. I find it strange that a few months before this event he buys his girlfriend a $14,000 car, refusing to buy a lexus because it has the same features. If you are going to be dead in two months, who cares? I find it strange that he left overwhelming clues everywhere -- both houses, car, and in the room if he is also covering his tracks by doing anonymous searches of the internet using someone else's computer. Generally people are careless and make mistakes at the beginning, and only later when they realize exactly what they are planning do they become very careful. This guy is exactly the opposite.

On the other hand, someone wanting to perpetrate this crime would consider him to be "perfect". Once they have hacked into his phone they would have everything they need to buy the stuff in his name, know where and when he'll be certain places, and to book the ideal rooms. If he was an unwitting accomplice it would explain the fact that no one suspected anything, because he himself didn't know anything.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

But, Trump's the already the worst president I've seen in my lifetime. He makes Nixon and Bush II look good. Show me where any previous POTUS has publicly contradicted and denigrated his own Attorney general, Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense. You claim it's normal. I don't think you can back it up. I think they're doing credible jobs trying to ameliorate the consequences of his stupidity.

It is only logical, you can't have lists of "the best presidents" without their also being the worst.

So far the big accomplishment for Trump's administration, in my mind, is the complete lack of any laws being passed. Doing nothing is not good, but it is a whole lot better than terrible laws.

In the end I ask myself what has he done that will actually have an effect on this country? It is like the tv show "No Ordinary Family" that gets cancelled after 1 season. What damage did it do?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You keep looking at race and gender, thinking Trump's "deplorables" had to be motivated by racism and misogyny. That's the endless message from the MSM.

Are you talking about the MSM showing the deplorables in Charlottesville? I have relatives that claim they are proud deplorables. When I ask if they are members of the KKK, Neo-Nazies, or White Supremacists they say no. Those are the real Trump deplorables. Are you one?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why can't you understand the many Americans just hated what Obama and Clinton stood for?

In hindsight it's obvious that voters supported Obamas' hope and change because they were reacting to Dubya. Obama represented something new. Then, after 8 yrs of Obama, America wanted something new again, and Hillary wasn't that. She was something old ... AND she was a woman. That was a factor.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was not their gender and color, it was their policies, it was their history. Is this fact just too difficult for liberals to get?

If you don't see that race and gender isn't a major factor you're as blind as the liberals.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hillary lost because of serious credibility issues. She had the media behind her ...

The media gave Trump so much free coverage and publicity it was a sickening ripoff.

Originally Posted by Ohio

No one could believe she could have lost.

She won with over 3 million voters.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I believe she lost because people were afraid to be honest with pollsters. They were intimidated. Had the projections been closer, Hillary and company would have fought harder in the few key battleground states.

As I stated, I wasn't for her or Trump. There were many factors against her winning, like Assange and Comey. And as bad as she would have been I doubt the KKK, Neo-Nazies, and White Supremacists would have been marching in Charlottesville ... and I doubt we'd be having this battle of the egos with little Kim Jong Un, and the possibility of nukes flying..

[awareness]

I've been saying Trump has not been able to meet his obvious obsession with being great, so he needs a war.

Well last night he gave us a little hint. While with military big dogs he stated, "This is the calm before the storm." When asked about which storm he said, "You'll find out." That could only mean one thing : WAR.

And WAR makes Trump great again. Watch and see. I'm a prophet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

She won with over 3 million voters.

.

NEWS FLASH!

Predidential elections do not count votes nationally.

NEWS FLASH!

We have an Electoral College system.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

NEWS FLASH!

Predidential elections do not count votes nationally.

NEWS FLASH!

We have an Electoral College system.

What? This can't be true. I never heard of it. It must be fake news.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

If you don't see that race and gender isn't a major factor you're as blind as the liberals.

With Michelle Obama saying that any woman who didn't vote for Hillary was denying her own voice there is no doubt that many of the votes for Hillary were gender based.

Originally Posted by awareness

The media gave Trump so much free coverage and publicity it was a sickening ripoff.

I think we can be sure that future candidates will try to get that free publicity with inflammatory remarks and other absurd graphics. Who knows, a candidate might pull a handgun out during a rally or ride in on a horse.

Originally Posted by awareness

She won with over 3 million voters.

If you don't like the constitution then work to change it. I would support moving to a democratically elected president. But it just comes across as petulant whining. She got 3 million more useless votes because California saw she was going to lose, but it is irrelevant if she wins California by a landslide or by 1%. Either way she just gets their electoral votes. Some states have moved to awarding electoral votes proportionally, as a result no one campaigns in those states.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Watch and see. I'm a prophet.

OK, I'll gather a pile of stones together, just in case.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you don't like the constitution then work to change it. I would support moving to a democratically elected president. But it just comes across as petulant whining. She got 3 million more useless votes because California saw she was going to lose, but it is irrelevant if she wins California by a landslide or by 1%. Either way she just gets their electoral votes. Some states have moved to awarding electoral votes proportionally, as a result no one campaigns in those states.

How do we know whether 4 million Trump voters just STAYED HOME because they lived on the west coast?

Claiming Hillary won the vote count is like the Super Bowl loser crying because they got more yards during the game. If yardage wins the game, then the entire game strategy is different.

This is why I just shake my head at the foolish and deceitful things I hear from the liberal Press.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

OK, I'll gather a pile of stones together, just in case.

Some folks never learn.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've been saying Trump has not been able to meet his obvious obsession with being great, so he needs a war.

Well last night he gave us a little hint. While with military big dogs he stated, "This is the calm before the storm." When asked about which storm he said, "You'll find out." That could only mean one thing : WAR.

And WAR makes Trump great again. Watch and see. I'm a prophet.

BTW what presidents other than Gerald Ford have not been president during war time since FDR?

The only one I can think of is JFK, another president who brought us as close to nuclear war as possible.

[ZNPaaneah]

Please note this "suspect" took 20 cruises including to the Middle East. He could have been hacked during one of these. This could also explain why ISIS is taking credit. This could be a whole new chapter in terrorism. Imagine some person working on a cruise ship or some other aspect of the tourism industry. They would come into contact with all kinds of retired US citizens who are not tech savvy, easy to hack, Once you have cloned a phone you learn their schedule, hotels they are at, bank accounts, passwords, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Please note this "suspect" took 20 cruises including to the Middle East. He could have been hacked during one of these. This could also explain why ISIS is taking credit. This could be a whole new chapter in terrorism. Imagine some person working on a cruise ship or some other aspect of the tourism industry. They would come into contact with all kinds of retired US citizens who are not tech savvy, easy to hack, Once you have cloned a phone you learn their schedule, hotels they are at, bank accounts, passwords, etc.

Have you heard about that pretty radio host named Nessa Diab?

Look at what one Muslim has done to the high and mighty NFL.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you heard about that pretty radio host named Nessa Diab?

Look at what one Muslim has done to the high and mighty NFL.

I think that is the main reason Kapernick is black balled.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think that is the main reason Kapernick is black balled.

I doubt it. The NFL is a business. QB's are their leaders. There are so many wrong things a QB can do to damage his worth. Upsetting half of their fans is surely one of these.

Besides, Kap was not that good. The lifespan of running QB's is not that long. Look at RG3, the Heisman winner, as good as he was in college, his skill set just didn't transfer to the pros.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I doubt it. The NFL is a business. QB's are their leaders. There are so many wrong things a QB can do to damage his worth. Upsetting half of their fans is surely one of these.

Besides, Kap was not that good. The lifespan of running QB's is not that long. Look at RG3, the Heisman winner, as good as he was in college, his skill set just didn't transfer to the pros.

Agree if he were a superstar like Cam Newton they would still keep him even if he made stupid PR blunders. But since he is no longer a superstar it is a lot easier for an owner to say they don't want anything to do with him.

I doubt that the knee was the problem. He was given a big contract which he turned down from San Francisco. They could not be seen as firing him because of the knee, that would alienate a large segment of the fan base. But there is a big difference between firing him and offering him a job. I think all the other owners don't want to bring that headache. He almost got a job offer till his girlfriend did that demeaning photoshop picture.

What owner in their right mind would hire a guy, pay him millions, just to be slandered like that. Hence, no more job offers. Skill wise he is as good as many back up QBs, but no one wants to pay someone millions to have them publicly insult them like that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

He almost got a job offer till his girlfriend did that demeaning photoshop picture.

I saw this as his biggest test, and he failed.

Kap was adopted by benevolent Christian parents who opened every door for him and led him to Christ. He made his faith public and walked his faith until Nessa got him in bed and got in his head. She used tried and true Islamic methods of racist activism to steer him her way. Kap then decided to test free agency and left SF for the open market. He was definitely naive to his past actions during the Anthem. Then an opening in Baltimore behind Flacco was available. Ray Lewis was in his corner, but Nessa sabotaged his only opportunity. That should have opened his eyes, woke him from his sleep, and exposed her devices, but his faith was already shipwrecked.

[zeek]

I hear Marilou Danley, the girlfriend of Las Vegas gunman Stephen Paddock, told investigators she was concerned about Paddock's mental stability, and that he would lie in bed moaning "Oh My God" as if he was in anguish. Was he hearing command hallucinations directing him to mass murder? DEMONS! !!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I hear Marilou Danley, the girlfriend of Las Vegas gunman Stephen Paddock, told investigators she was concerned about Paddock's mental stability, and that he would lie in bed moaning "Oh My God" as if he was in anguish. Was he hearing command hallucinations directing him to mass murder? DEMONS! !!!

You said this was GhostBusters.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You said this was GhostBusters.

What are demons, after all, but the symptoms of brain disease? And, of course, we don't know if that's why he was crying out or even if his girlfriend is telling the truth at this point. She might be telling investigators what she thinks they want to hear, or steering them away from the terrorist cell that they were part of. Only one thing for sure, whatever the means or the motives, Hilary and Obama were behind it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

What are demons, after all, but the symptoms of brain disease?

So when Jesus cast out the legion of demons from that guy living in tombs in Mark 5, He was only healing the guy of brain disease?

Uh huh! Sure!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Agree if he were a superstar like Cam Newton they would still keep him even if he made stupid PR blunders. But since he is no longer a superstar it is a lot easier for an owner to say they don't want anything to do with him.

I doubt that the knee was the problem. He was given a big contract which he turned down from San Francisco. They could not be seen as firing him because of the knee, that would alienate a large segment of the fan base. But there is a big difference between firing him and offering him a job. I think all the other owners don't want to bring that headache. He almost got a job offer till his girlfriend did that demeaning photoshop picture.

What owner in their right mind would hire a guy, pay him millions, just to be slandered like that. Hence, no more job offers. Skill wise he is as good as many back up QBs, but no one wants to pay someone millions to have them publicly insult them like that.

Cam's comments were nothing, except in today's super-charged atmosphere. Cursing God or belittling Christians -- perfectly acceptable. Being surprised about a woman's knowledge of sports -- totally unacceptable.

Even if Kaepernick had Brady's arm, it's highly doubtful any team would risk it, including the Ravens. The guy has openly praised Castro, a ruthless Communist dictator. That's a whole lot worse than a little Trump-hate which is all too fashionable these days. Why ... even Tom Brady chimed in on that!

When will the NFL prima donna's learn that 1st Amend. rights do not exist in the workplace.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I saw this as his biggest test, and he failed.

Kap was adopted by benevolent Christian parents who opened every door for him and led him to Christ. He made his faith public and walked his faith until Nessa got him in bed and got in his head. She used tried and true Islamic methods of racist activism to steer him her way. Kap then decided to test free agency and left SF for the open market. He was definitely naive to his past actions during the Anthem. Then an opening in Baltimore behind Flacco was available. Ray Lewis was in his corner, but Nessa sabotaged his only opportunity. That should have opened his eyes, woke him from his sleep, and exposed her devices, but his faith was already shipwrecked.

Exquisite articulation bro Ohio. But are you talking Adam or Kaepernick? The Bible teaches that it's women who bring men down.

Pro_22:14 The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.

Pro_31:3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.

And then, what about Eve? She was obviously a Muslim ... or a liberal ... both are demons .... Right?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

The Bible teaches that it's women who bring men down.

No, it does not.

The Bible only warns us of potential dangers.

The Bible extols women, their talents, and their value more than any other book in history.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So when Jesus cast out the legion of demons from that guy living in tombs in Mark 5, He was only healing the guy of brain disease?

Uh huh! Sure!

Jesus' reputation as an exorcist was legendary. Unfortunately it did nothing to enhance the treatment of mental illness. Superstition ruled for most of 2000 years since and still holds sway over folks like yourself. It's totally useless when working with patients many of them subject to the same kind of beliefs themselves. Neuroscience has made amazing progress in understanding the human brain in the past 30 years to such an extent that psychiatric practice has not kept up. But, the images of demons you have in your mind are powerful symbols great for telling myths and legends that continue to populate our imagination in literature and film.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Jesus' reputation as an exorcist was legendary. Unfortunately it did nothing to enhance the treatment of mental illness. Superstition ruled for most of 2000 years since and still holds sway over folks like yourself. It's totally useless when working with patients many of them subject to the same kind of beliefs themselves. Neuroscience has made amazing progress in understanding the human brain in the past 30 years to such an extent that psychiatric practice has not kept up. But, the images of demons you have in your mind are powerful symbols great for telling myths and legends that continue to populate our imagination in literature and film.

You could have just answered my question, but instead, as usual, you give me a whole paragraph of nonsense, in the name of science.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, it does not.

The Bible only warns us of potential dangers.

The Bible extols women, their talents, and their value more than any other book in history.

Let's have a Bible verse fight. I bet I can present more verses that denigrate women in the Bible, than you can find that extols women.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You could have just answered my question, but instead, as usual, you give me a whole paragraph of nonsense, in the name of science.

Sorry. You seem to become frustrated when you can't control the responses of others.

In its present form, the demoniac story contains many symbolic elements, so it is difficult to tell the extent to which a historical event lies behind it. But one important point often missed is that the story in its present form disrupts the symbolic universe of the purity system of Jesus' day.

Stories of Jesus' healings shatter the purity boundaries of his social world. He touched lepers and hemorrhaging women. Likewise in this exorcism, he entered a forbidden space inhabited by a man with a “legion” of unclean spirits who lived in the vicinity of pigs, which were of course considered unclean animals.

Jesus violated his society's taboos. Once again his ability to show openness and compassion towards a rejected and outcast member of his society had a healing effect on the man and the conservative local people wanted Jesus to leave.

Notice how my interpretation avoids the supernatural, the fantastical and the superstitious. Yet, my reading is tentative and provisional. The con artists claim to KNOW. Anyone one who claims they can explain every aspect of the story is probably a shyster out to deceive the simple like we were deceived by WL.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Only one thing for sure, whatever the means or the motives, Hilary and Obama were behind it.

The nice thing about this theory is that they have already hacked his phone.

The story is quite bizarre, if it were terrorism they would have used the cameras he had to make statements and to video tape the carnage. Instead this guy set up cameras to aid his escape yet appeared to not make the slightest effort to escape even though he had numerous warnings, not least of which is the unarmed security guard which should have been a great opportunity for him to then leave. Also, since the room was in his name as were all the guns in the room it doesn't make sense that he is planning on escape. I also find it odd that the police give us a complete and full assurance that he is the only shooter. What is that assurance based on? People in the concert including the police thought there were multiple shooters.

Perhaps they want the accomplice to feel confident they escaped.

I also find it bizarre that even after this much time they have no idea what his motive was. That is completely unexplainable. Whether he had mental illness, demon possession, psychotic break, deep seated anger issues, whatever, that should have leaked out to acquaintances, girlfriend, brother, etc. over the last year.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Notice how my interpretation avoids the supernatural, the fantastical and the superstitious. Yet, my reading is tentative and provisional. The con artists claim to KNOW. Anyone one who claims they can explain every aspect of the story is probably a shyster out to deceive the simple like we were deceived by WL.

Yes, your interpretation avoids the facts, twists the narrative, and distorts the truth.

Your reading is tentative and provisional? Subject to the whims of the day and the winds of heresy?

The Bible was written by actual eye-witnesses, who recorded their accounts. There were multiple confirmations. I understand that you can't handle the truth, and anyone who actually believes the scripture must be a simpleton conned by some shyster.

Actually the real shyster is your boy Ehrman.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've been saying Trump has not been able to meet his obvious obsession with being great, so he needs a war.

Well last night he gave us a little hint. While with military big dogs he stated, "This is the calm before the storm." When asked about which storm he said, "You'll find out." That could only mean one thing : WAR.

And WAR makes Trump great again. Watch and see. I'm a prophet.

I said watch and see. Now Trump is tweeting :

“Presidents and their administrations have been talking to North Korea for 25 years, agreements made and massive amounts of money paid,” Trump said in a tweet. .”..Hasn’t worked, agreements violated before the ink was dry, making fools of U.S. negotiators. Sorry, but only one thing will work!”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I said watch and see. Now Trump is tweeting :

“Presidents and their administrations have been talking to North Korea for 25 years, agreements made and massive amounts of money paid,” Trump said in a tweet. .”..Hasn’t worked, agreements violated before the ink was dry, making fools of U.S. negotiators. Sorry, but only one thing will work!”

You would prefer Kim launches a nuclear attack first, then we do more Obama-style negotiations, like give him $150B?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Jesus' reputation as an exorcist was legendary. Unfortunately it did nothing to enhance the treatment of mental illness. Superstition ruled for most of 2000 years since and still holds sway over folks like yourself. It's totally useless when working with patients many of them subject to the same kind of beliefs themselves. Neuroscience has made amazing progress in understanding the human brain in the past 30 years to such an extent that psychiatric practice has not kept up. But, the images of demons you have in your mind are powerful symbols great for telling myths and legends that continue to populate our imagination in literature and film.

It's so incredible that zeek's vast telepathic skills rival even Professor Charles Xavier, and he can see images of demons lurking in my mind and that of other believing Christians throughout the church age. Truly incredible zeek.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, your interpretation avoids the facts, twists the narrative, and distorts the truth.

Your reading is tentative and provisional? Subject to the whims of the day and the winds of heresy?

The Bible was written by actual eye-witnesses, who recorded their accounts. There were multiple confirmations. I understand that you can't handle the truth, and anyone who actually believes the scripture must be a simpleton conned by some shyster.

Actually the real shyster is your boy Ehrman.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so incredible that zeek's vast telepathic skills rival even Professor Charles Xavier, and he can see images of demons lurking in my mind and that of other believing Christians throughout the church age. Truly incredible zeek.

Ha ha. I don't have to read your mind. You received images of demons the same way I did by participating in a culture that propagates them. Plus I read what you write and see how you think. Your public personna is a clue to your inner self. Nothing human is alien to me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, your interpretation avoids the facts, twists the narrative, and distorts the truth.

Your reading is tentative and provisional? Subject to the whims of the day and the winds of heresy?

The Bible was written by actual eye-witnesses, who recorded their accounts. There were multiple confirmations. I understand that you can't handle the truth, and anyone who actually believes the scripture must be a simpleton conned by some shyster.

Actually the real shyster is your boy Ehrman.

How dare you cast aspersion's at a top Bible scholar. I'll bet you don't do the same toward Daniel Wallace, and they are on par with each other.

And where in the Bible does it say the Bible was written by eye witnesses?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I said watch and see. Now Trump is tweeting :

“Presidents and their administrations have been talking to North Korea for 25 years, agreements made and massive amounts of money paid,” Trump said in a tweet. .”..Hasn’t worked, agreements violated before the ink was dry, making fools of U.S. negotiators. Sorry, but only one thing will work!”

I have been hearing many different people talking about Trump, mostly negative but a few still hold a positive view. I find the entire discussion pointless or even worse, contributing to a negative and dangerous situation. The only advice that has made any sense to me is that of Paul -- "pray for those in authority".

If you want to pray for those investigating Trump that would be positive. Pray for Tillerson, the only one standing between Trump and Kim, great.

But as long as he is the president he can have a very big impact on our life, positive or negative. Therefore it seems to me that prayer is the best thing.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so incredible that zeek's vast telepathic skills rival even Professor Charles Xavier, and he can see images of demons lurking in my mind and that of other believing Christians throughout the church age. Truly incredible zeek.

Zeek is professor Xavier?! This could explain why he doesn't like your reference to X men as demon possessed.

[ZNPaaneah]

In the gunman's hotel room they found a phone charger that does not fit his phone. This is the nicest room, 1700 square feet, in a really swanky hotel. I suspect the maid service would have found and removed anything left from anyone in the room prior to his stay.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In the gunman's hotel room they found a phone charger that does not fit his phone. This is the nicest room, 1700 square feet, in a really swanky hotel. I suspect the maid service would have found and removed anything left from anyone in the room prior to his stay.

To add to insult I bet he was the type of person that would have stolen all the towels. Poor maid having to clean up all his mess.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In the gunman's hotel room they found a phone charger that does not fit his phone. This is the nicest room, 1700 square feet, in a really swanky hotel. I suspect the maid service would have found and removed anything left from anyone in the room prior to his stay.

I saw that. Someone else in the room? Someone who had to leave in a hurry?

How do we know he killed himself? Could an accomplice have escaped out the window in the dark and climbed/was hoisted to the roof?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To add to insult I bet he was the type of person that would have stolen all the towels. Poor maid having to clean up all his mess.

He used the stolen towels to escape.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek is professor Xavier?!
This could explain why he doesn't like your reference to X men as demon possessed.

I thought you knew. I guess he has been officially "outed."

Zeek is a mutant. He has telepathic powers. Right now he knows what you are thinking as you read this post. Zeek has the Cerebro. He knows who is still infected by the LC.

We should get one of those helmets. I'm afraid ole zeek may get "corrupted" by believing one of those bible verses in our minds. Think how dangerous that might be to mutant x-men.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you knew. I guess he has been officially "outed."

Zeek is a mutant. He has telepathic powers. Right now he knows what you are thinking as you read this post. Zeek has the Cerebro. He knows who is still infected by the LC.

We should get one of those helmets. I'm afraid ole zeek may get "corrupted" by believing one of those bible verses in our minds. Think how dangerous that might be to mutant x-men.

I love it! I know what you're thinking cuz I read your posts. If you don't want people to know what you think, don't post.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have been hearing many different people talking about Trump, mostly negative but a few still hold a positive view. I find the entire discussion pointless or even worse, contributing to a negative and dangerous situation. The only advice that has made any sense to me is that of Paul -- "pray for those in authority".

If you want to pray for those investigating Trump that would be positive. Pray for Tillerson, the only one standing between Trump and Kim, great.

But as long as he is the president he can have a very big impact on our life, positive or negative. Therefore it seems to me that prayer is the best thing.

Oh the "Prayers and Thoughts" thing, AGAIN ! I've heard enough of that. Mostly from Republicans, bribed by the NRA (and some demmies too).

What "prayers and thoughts" really mean is, "Tough fecal matter." (Can't say the right word here, but you get what I mean. Right?

They can't really say what they mean -- like, all guns should be legal -- so they use a euphemism : Thoughts and Prayers.

And now, because you are a Bible nut, you use it. To hell with bump stock laws, or any other.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You would prefer Kim launches a nuclear attack first, then we do more Obama-style negotiations, like give him $150B?

No, I'm just saying Trump needs a war to be great. So I'm predicting one. I'm not telepathic like you seem to think zeek is. I'm a prophet. Watch and see. You'll be thrilled. Cuz your man will be great again.

Bro Ohio, after the local church, and its personality cult leader, I'm surprised you could fall for another personality cult following.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so incredible that zeek's vast telepathic skills rival even Professor Charles Xavier, and he can see images of demons lurking in my mind and that of other believing Christians throughout the church age. Truly incredible zeek.

How dare him to claim to see the demons lurking in your mind. It's not possible to see them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh the "Prayers and Thoughts" thing, AGAIN ! I've heard enough of that. Mostly from Republicans, bribed by the NRA (and some demmies too).

What "prayers and thoughts" really mean is, "Tough fecal matter." (Can't say the right word here, but you get what I mean. Right?

They can't really say what they mean -- like, all guns should be legal -- so they use a euphemism : Thoughts and Prayers.

And now, because you are a Bible nut, you use it. To hell with bump stock laws, or any other.

Today they demonstrated very clearly if you want Trump and Pence to leave on their own accord you simply need to bend the knee. They used to call it "Tebowing". Show respect to a higher power than the US flag and they will leave.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Today they demonstrated very clearly if you want Trump and Pence to leave on their own accord you simply need to bend the knee. They used to call it "Tebowing". Show respect to a higher power than the US flag and they will leave.

You really think so???

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

No, I'm just saying Trump needs a war to be great. So I'm predicting one. I'm not telepathic like you seem to think zeek is. I'm a prophet. Watch and see. You'll be thrilled. Cuz your man will be great again.

Bro Ohio, after the local church, and its personality cult leader, I'm surprised you could fall for another personality cult following.

Unfortunately Obama scraped up some of the last middle east targets to make himself great, which only leaves the leftovers Iran or NK for Trump. Since Iran is playing nice he has decided to go with NK which is a worry because America has never won a war in Asia since the defeat of Japan.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Unfortunately Obama scraped up some of the last middle east targets to make himself great, which only leaves the leftovers Iran or NK for Trump. Since Iran is playing nice he has decided to go with NK which is a worry because America has never won a war in Asia since the defeat of Japan.

"South Korea developing graphite 'blackout bombs' to paralyse North's electrical grid"

In the end you have a 3rd world country with a H bomb going up against SK, Japan and the US. Their power grid and communications will be knocked out in the first hour. The only radios that will still work a day later will be hand cranked. Anything that fires will be targeted and destroyed over the next two weeks.

Can NK still cause tremendous damage and kill a lot of people? Yes. But it is pure suicide, whatever they fire will justify their destruction. If they do go nuclear the US has tactical nukes.

I think the diplomatic effort has the goal to make sure China and Russia do not support NK in going to war. The best way to do that is convince them that NK has crossed the line and we intend to use any means necessary to put an end to that, this way they don't need to say anything that might cause them to get dragged into the battle.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

You really think so???

You obviously were not paying attention yesterday.

[ZNPaaneah]

The sniper notes (wind, elevation, distance) could be a clue to the motive. Perhaps amid all the spray fire of the bump stock there was a sniper who fired to kill a specific person. Once accomplished they left. Everything else might be to just hide the fact that this was a murder of one specific target. This could explain why there were two broken windows, all the cameras and counter measures, the sniper notes, and the charger for another phone. It would also explain the motive. Imagine how difficult if not impossible it will be for investigators to sift through the evidence to determine if this were true.

[zeek]

Republican Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee went on record yesterday to say that Trump’s reckless threats toward other countries could set the nation “on the path to World War III.” “He concerns me", Corker said. "He would have to concern anyone who cares about our nation. I know for a fact that every single day at the White House, it’s a situation of trying to contain him.”

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

No, I'm just saying Trump needs a war to be great. So I'm predicting one. I'm not telepathic like you seem to think zeek is. I'm a prophet. Watch and see. You'll be thrilled. Cuz your man will be great again.

Bro Ohio, after the local church, and its personality cult leader, I'm surprised you could fall for another personality cult following.

This is a radical departure for someone who mocked prophets of doom, and especially those who predicted a coming apocalypse with dates. And it is incredibly risky venture on your part as well. Suppose you are right. Are you then going to boast that you predicted a nuclear holocaust prior to it happening? No one would care, in fact that is the kind of boast that would receive death threats. What people would want to know is if you knew that this was going to happen before it did why didn't you do something.

On the other hand if you are wrong it will destroy your reputation. It will appear as the most hypocritical coming from someone who mocked others who made doomsday prophesies. On a Witness Lee scale this is a 10, even WL didn't make these kind of prophecies.

Given these two outcomes it is very difficult to see how you aren't rooting for a nuclear holocaust. Once again incredible hypocrisy from someone who has ascribed ugly motives to the Bible and God.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"South Korea developing graphite 'blackout bombs' to paralyse North's electrical grid"

In the end you have a 3rd world country with a H bomb going up against SK, Japan and the US. Their power grid and communications will be knocked out in the first hour. The only radios that will still work a day later will be hand cranked. Anything that fires will be targeted and destroyed over the next two weeks.

Can NK still cause tremendous damage and kill a lot of people? Yes. But it is pure suicide, whatever they fire will justify their destruction. If they do go nuclear the US has tactical nukes.

I think the diplomatic effort has the goal to make sure China and Russia do not support NK in going to war. The best way to do that is convince them that NK has crossed the line and we intend to use any means necessary to put an end to that, this way they don't need to say anything that might cause them to get dragged into the battle.

Sure but what happens after that is the problem. Millions of fanatics hiding out in holes. And they arent as reliant upon electricity as modern countries I dont think the blackout bombs will do much.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sure but what happens after that is the problem. Millions of fanatics hiding out in holes. And they arent as reliant upon electricity as modern countries I dont think the blackout bombs will do much.

If you knock out the electric grid you also knock out everything that goes with that.

Smart bombs take out the telecommunications. Now the military has significant difficulty communicating. They have to use radio which is easier to intercept and jam. If you force their hand so that this does not begin according to their timetable they will be in disarray, the "fog of war" unsure of what the orders are. Since they don't have satellites or airpower they will not have any strategic view of the battlefield.

Every single artillery fired will show up on various systems, it will be plotted, and then targeted. perhaps within seconds, or minutes or even hours. But regardless, if they fire they will be fired upon. So yes, they have dug themselves in to the mountains and rocks, but that also means they are stationary, so once we know their location it doesn't change. I imagine they have already plotted many of these locations on maps and will be ready to target them immediately based on earlier reconnaissance.

There is no threat of "victory" by NK, instead the only threat they have is 1 hour of bombardment of Seoul, the largest city in the world.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you knock out the electric grid you also knock out everything that goes with that.

Smart bombs take out the telecommunications. Now the military has significant difficulty communicating. They have to use radio which is easier to intercept and jam. If you force their hand so that this does not begin according to their timetable they will be in disarray, the "fog of war" unsure of what the orders are. Since they don't have satellites or airpower they will not have any strategic view of the battlefield.

Every single artillery fired will show up on various systems, it will be plotted, and then targeted. perhaps within seconds, or minutes or even hours. But regardless, if they fire they will be fired upon. So yes, they have dug themselves in to the mountains and rocks, but that also means they are stationary, so once we know their location it doesn't change. I imagine they have already plotted many of these locations on maps and will be ready to target them immediately based on earlier reconnaissance.

There is no threat of "victory" by NK, instead the only threat they have is 1 hour of bombardment of Seoul, the largest city in the world.

Let's hope that happens if war should break out. But all they have to do is stay hidden in those mountains until the US runs out of money or desire trying to find/kill them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Let's hope that happens if war should break out. But all they have to do is stay hidden in those mountains until the US runs out of money or desire trying to find/kill them.

You are kidding right? You realize this has been going on for 50+ years and SK and Japan have quite a bit invested in this as well.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is a radical departure for someone who mocked prophets of doom, and especially those who predicted a coming apocalypse with dates. And it is incredibly risky venture on your part as well. Suppose you are right. Are you then going to boast that you predicted a nuclear holocaust prior to it happening? No one would care, in fact that is the kind of boast that would receive death threats. What people would want to know is if you knew that this was going to happen before it did why didn't you do something.

On the other hand if you are wrong it will destroy your reputation. It will appear as the most hypocritical coming from someone who mocked others who made doomsday prophesies. On a Witness Lee scale this is a 10, even WL didn't make these kind of prophecies.

Given these two outcomes it is very difficult to see how you aren't rooting for a nuclear holocaust. Once again incredible hypocrisy from someone who has ascribed ugly motives to the Bible and God.

Oh my goodness, I'm in a no win situation here. If I'm right I'm wrong and if I wrong I'm wrong. What a pickle.

But I'm not really a prophet. God is not revealing anything to me, in this regard. I just say that for you Bible Thumpers out here, that don't believe anything unless it relates to the Bible.

I'm not a prophet. Just a guy that sees Trump's obsession with being great, disappointment that he's not been great so far (except in his own head ... which isn't enough for him) and so will assuage that obsession with war, that will make him great again. In fact, I'm certain it will happen. To hell with human life, as long as Trump is great.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Seoul, the largest city in the world.

Seoul is the world's 16th largest city

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Seoul is the world's 16th largest city

ZNP must be using scientific precision. So it's the largest in the world, +/- 16.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh my goodness, I'm in a no win situation here. If I'm right I'm wrong and if I wrong I'm wrong. What a pickle.

But I'm not really a prophet. God is not revealing anything to me, in this regard. I just say that for you Bible Thumpers out here, that don't believe anything unless it relates to the Bible.

I'm not a prophet. Just a guy that sees Trump's obsession with being great, disappointment that he's not been great so far (except in his own head ... which isn't enough for him) and so will assuage that obsession with war, that will make him great again. In fact, I'm certain it will happen. To hell with human life, as long as Trump is great.

Trump's attitude to human suffering is show in his latest tweet about PuertoRico :

Nobody could have done what I’ve done for #PuertoRico with so little appreciation. So much work!


As the NK war happens, i'm sure Trump will say something like:

"Nobody could have done what I've done for North Korea"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The sniper notes (wind, elevation, distance) could be a clue to the motive. Perhaps amid all the spray fire of the bump stock there was a sniper who fired to kill a specific person. Once accomplished they left. Everything else might be to just hide the fact that this was a murder of one specific target. This could explain why there were two broken windows, all the cameras and counter measures, the sniper notes, and the charger for another phone. It would also explain the motive. Imagine how difficult if not impossible it will be for investigators to sift through the evidence to determine if this were true.

ZNP, Something smells fishy here!

Do you hear the sudden change in the timeline? The LATimes posted a layout of the suite.

Why would the room connected to the service cart cameras be locked? Why were no guns found in this room? Why would police lie about earlier timeline? How could shooter fire 200 rounds and only hit the security guy once in the leg?

Why would the glass window by all the guns be busted only on the bottom, but where there were no guns, that window (from outside photos) be completely busted out? Could a 2nd person have used that window for escape with a paraglider in the dark?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, Something smells fishy here!

Do you hear the sudden change in the timeline? The LATimes posted a layout of the suite.

Why would the room connected to the service cart cameras be locked? Why were no guns found in this room? Why would police lie about earlier timeline? How could shooter fire 200 rounds and only hit the security guy once in the leg?

Why would the glass window by all the guns be busted only on the bottom, but where there were no guns, that window (from outside photos) be completely busted out? Could a 2nd person have used that window for escape with a paraglider in the dark?

When the police "assured us" that there was definitely not a 2nd shooter that to me smelled like their attempt to put this guy at ease. Common tactic.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Seoul is the world's 16th largest city

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...ation-125.html

According to this site it is the 4th largest metropolitan area by population. But if you look at the data there is little to no distinction between #2, 3, and 4.

According to this site it is #6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

Obviously there is some discrepancy in how you calculate this.

I may have been looking at a different figure like pop density.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...ation-125.html

According to this site it is the 4th largest metropolitan area by population. But if you look at the data there is little to no distinction between #2, 3, and 4.

According to this site it is #6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

Obviously there is some discrepancy in how you calculate this.

I may have been looking at a different figure like pop density.

Oh brother, just come out and admit you were wrong.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh brother, just come out and admit you were wrong.

I did admit I was wrong. Now its your turn. 16th? That is based on a city proper boundary which is meaningless in the context of a human target for N.Korea. As an urban area it has 25 million people, Tokyo comes in at 36 million. Both cities are well within NK's range.

That is the threat and why the US has chosen to pay them off until now. But at some point this has to stop.

[ZNPaaneah]

Wow, how quickly did the NFL fold? Threaten to take away tax breaks and say goodbye to making a stand (taking a knee) for civil rights. Reminds me of a nursery rhyme about humpty dumpty.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, how quickly did the NFL fold? Threaten to take away tax breaks and say goodbye to making a stand (taking a knee) for civil rights. Reminds me of a nursery rhyme about humpty dumpty.

Rich prima donna's protesting on company time, supported by taxpayer payoffs. More peer pressure and Trump hate than anything else. I'm glad the American people got to see who these "stars" really are.

I have not seen any one with guts come right out and say it, but much of the black unrest in this country is fueled by Muslam and Communist interests. The whole narrative of police brutality is a hoax thrust upon them. Facts do not support it. More black young men die at the hands of their own neighbors than anything else. With the NFL protests, it was plainly initiated by Nessa Diab, the Muslam activist girlfriend of Colon Kapernick.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I did admit I was wrong. Now its your turn. 16th?

I got mine from Wiki :

Seoul is the world's 16th largest city,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Rich prima donna's protesting on company time, supported by taxpayer payoffs. More peer pressure and Trump hate than anything else. I'm glad the American people got to see who these "stars" really are.

I have not seen any one with guts come right out and say it, but much of the black unrest in this country is fueled by Muslam and Communist interests. The whole narrative of police brutality is a hoax thrust upon them. Facts do not support it. More black young men die at the hands of their own neighbors than anything else. With the NFL protests, it was plainly initiated by Nessa Diab, the Muslam activist girlfriend of Colon Kapernick.

I also was turned off by the entire debate. If Colin Kapernick were very much involved in this issue on his own time and with his own dime, no problem. I would applaud that. It doesn't matter to me what the statistics say, if this is a concern to Colin by all means take care of your conscience.

Likewise, I didn't mind him protesting during the NFL games. What turned me off were the protests about the NFL not hiring him after he turned down a multimillion dollar contract. They want to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to be involved in civil rights you need to pay the price. The idea that they somehow think they should be allowed to protest and not pay a price was repugnant to me.

It got even worse when the owners got down on the field. They have made it abundantly clear that the only rights they are concerned with is their right to make millions of dollars.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I got mine from Wiki :

Seoul is the world's 16th largest city,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul

Yes, as I said that is irrelevant based on the context. They are using the boundary lines of the city proper to make that evaluation. The context is that this city is a target for NK ordinance. Therefore the issue is the urban population of the metropolitan area, under that measurement there are 25 million people and it is very clearly one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the world (by population) with Tokyo being the only area that is significantly larger, a city that was also threatened by NK when they tested a missile to fly over Japan.

The fact that NK has directly threatened both Seoul and Tokyo, 61 million people, clearly is their point of leverage with the US.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I got mine from Wiki :

Seoul is the world's 16th largest city,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul

I knew this place was prone to arguments at times, but you ... as our faithful moderator ... should be setting a better example.

Even zeek and I have found some "common ground" to agree on.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I knew this place was prone to arguments at times, but you ... as our faithful moderator ... should be setting a better example.

Even zeek and I have found some "common ground" to agree on.

I agree bro Ohio. This is ludicrous. Bro ZNP should have checked his facts before making his statement about Seoul being the largest city in the world. That's all. But no biggie. I let so many of his claims slide. Don't know why I picked on this one. Maybe to question any other of his far out claims.

Of course you'll likely claim I have no room to be critical ... and you would prolly be right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I agree bro Ohio. This is ludicrous. Bro ZNP should have checked his facts before making his statement about Seoul being the largest city in the world. That's all. But no biggie. I let so many of his claims slide. Don't know why I picked on this one. Maybe to question any other of his far out claims.

Of course you'll likely claim I have no room to be critical ... and you would prolly be right.

The topic of NoKo was being discussed. I think ZNP's point was that Seoul is a huge city, perhaps the biggest in the world. To call him out on a technicality like that sounded a little petty.

And since we are talking Petty, perhaps we should sing "Yer So Bad" or maybe "I Won't Back Down."

[zeek]

Hopefully some of the better people in Trump's cabinet can save us from him carrying out his worst instincts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Hopefully some of the better people in Trump's cabinet can save us from him carrying out his worst instincts.

Talking about their "worst instincts," have you noticed how similar Harvey Swinestein and Bill Clinton are?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Talking about their "worst instincts," have you noticed how similar Harvey Swinestein and Bill Clinton are?

Yes ... and Trump too. But not Obama.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes ... and Trump too. But not Obama.

Are you serious?

[ZNPaaneah]

Here is what Popovich told Zirin in their ensuing conversation:

“I’ve been amazed and disappointed by so much of what this President had said, and his approach to running this country, which seems to be one of just a never-ending divisiveness. But his comments today about those who have lost loved ones in times of war and his lies that previous presidents Obama and Bush never contacted their families, is so beyond the pale, I almost don’t have the words.” “This man in the Oval Office is a soulless coward who thinks that he can only become large by belittling others. This has of course been a common practice of his, but to do it in this manner – and to lie about how previous presidents responded to the deaths of soldiers – is as low as it gets. We have a pathological liar in the White House: unfit intellectually, emotionally, and psychologically to hold this office and the whole world knows it, especially those around him every day. The people who work with this President should be ashamed because they know it better than anyone just how unfit he is, and yet they choose to do nothing about it. This is their shame most of all.”

I was struck by the last two sentences. They know how unfit he is and yet they choose to do nothing about it. This is their shame.

I know this is a political thread, but I often wonder what is the right thing to do about it? Recently with the Harvey Weinstein revelation one thing that really offended me was that so many people appeared to know about this for many, many years and yet chose to do nothing about it. Even Trump admitted as much when he said publicly that he knows Harvey and is "not surprised". That is their shame. I was listening to an army veteran talking about Bergdahl who claimed he deserted to complain about his superior officer's behavior. His point was that there are channels to go through but desertion was not right.

I appreciate that Popovich has chosen to go on record as forcefully as this. I think it is the right thing to do to put your name to a direct stand rejecting blatant lies. I personally cannot testify as to who Bush or Obama called, but I do know that the only president I have ever seen to publicly belittle a war hero and the parents of a war hero is Trump.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I appreciate that Popovich has chosen to go on record as forcefully as this. I think it is the right thing to do to put your name to a direct stand rejecting blatant lies.

I used to love to watch the San Antonio Spurs under coach Popovich, but his anti-Trump rants are over the top. He goes off on everything the MSM feeds him. It's endless. I am thru with pro sports.

Under Obama, Christians have been dying and tortured in record numbers. He gives $150B with $2B of that in cash to Iran, the biggest funder of global terrorism. Yet these goons like Popovich said nothing, and now focus on non- scripted words (often fake news) rather than actions.

Is Trump rude? Yes. Does he make great decisions? Double yes.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I used to love to watch the San Antonio Spurs under coach Popovich, but his anti-Trump rants are over the top. He goes off on everything the MSM feeds him. It's endless. I am thru with pro sports.

Under Obama, Christians have been dying and tortured in record numbers. He gives $150B with $2B of that in cash to Iran, the biggest funder of global terrorism. Yet these goons like Popovich said nothing, and now focus on non- scripted words (often fake news) rather than actions.

Is Trump rude? Yes. Does he make great decisions? Double yes.

It's called sexual assault, not rude.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's called sexual assault, not rude.

Aussie get some fake news?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Only if we are married.

Real funny. So, you think being married gives you license to grab your wife's genitals without permission like Trump said he does? "I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Real funny. So, you think being married gives you license to grab your wife's genitals without permission like Trump said he does? "I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."

Ohio brought up the subject of being married, but actually, Trump wasn't talking about his wife, but about any woman, I thought. That's why he such a great President for America, stands for everything true American like Ohio represent heheheh.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Only if we are married.

Only if you want to get a knee in your groin. I've been married 3 times, and the last 2 were horndogs, but if I grabbed them unwelcomed they'd clobber me.

Now maybe in the cave man days, when you could club 'em and drag 'em by the hair into your cave. Maybe then. Trump must be cave man in nature.

[ZNPaaneah]

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/...ma-holder-not/

Uh Oh. I guess this may explain why Obama and Clinton didn't make a bigger fuss during the election. Perhaps the reason Russia hated Clinton so much is the old "lover scorned".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/...ma-holder-not/

Uh Oh. I guess this may explain why Obama and Clinton didn't make a bigger fuss during the election. Perhaps the reason Russia hated Clinton so much is the old "lover scorned".

Explains why the things have been so silent concerning the Russian collusion.

Better to dig deeper into this, as reported by The Hill: “Before the Obama administration approved a controversial deal in 2010 giving Moscow control of a large swath of American uranium, the FBI had gathered substantial evidence that Russian nuclear industry officials were engaged in bribery, kickbacks, extortion and money laundering designed to grow Vladimir Putin’s atomic energy business inside the United States.”

Last night's Hannity hour brought out the worst part of this treason -- of those who jointly signed off on the Russian Uranium Purchase in 2010 -- are the following -- Hillary Clinton, Eric Holder, Obama, James Comey, Rosenstein, and, of course, Muller. The biggest foxes in Wash DC guarding the hen house.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Give me the number of your ex.

You brought your wife into the conversation unsolicited. You disrespected her in the process. If you want to make an accusation against me have the courage to be direct. Leave my family out of it.

[Ohio]

The Clinton cover-up, brought to you by the same guys who are investigating Trump, by Gregg Jarrett:

Damning new evidence appears to show that Hillary Clinton used her office as Secretary of State to confer benefits to Russia in exchange for millions of dollars in donations to her foundation and cash to her husband.

But there’s more. It seems it was all covered up for years by the same three people who are now involved in the investigation of President Donald Trump over so-called Russian “collusion.”

The incriminating evidence was uncovered by The Hill (John Solomon and Alison Spann) and Circa News (Sara Carter). Their dogged reporting reveals that the FBI gathered a multitude of documents, secret recordings, intercepted emails, financial records, and eyewitnesses accounts showing that Russian nuclear officials directed millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation and hundreds of thousands of dollars to Bill Clinton during the very time that Hillary Clinton presided over a governing body which unanimously approved the sale of one-fifth of America’s uranium supply to Russia.

The corrupt scheme is said to have been financed by the Russians through bribes, kickbacks, extortion and money laundering. The FBI and the Department of Justice reportedly had the evidence in their possession before the uranium sale, but kept the matter secret and never notified Congress which would surely have stopped the transfer of uranium to Russia.

Indeed, the entire sordid affair remained hidden for seven long years. Until now.

The FBI evidence, if true, would seem to show that one or more of these illegal “pay-to-play” laws were broken. The government would have to prove that Hillary and Bill got paid, while the Russians got to play. And prosecutors are required to show a “quid pro quo” or “nexus” between the payments and the benefit provided. But it appears that the FBI already possesses all the evidence it needs to make a compelling case.

If Hillary leveraged her public office as Secretary of State for personal enrichment, but also used her charity as a receptacle or conduit for money obtained illegally, that would also constitute racketeering, as I first argued in a column almost a year ago.

Racketeering is the use of a business for a corrupt and illegal enterprise. The “Mafia” and other organized crime syndicates are often prosecuted under the “Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act” or “RICO” (18 USC 1961-1968). Frequently, they devise a dual purpose company –one which operates lawfully from the front door, but unlawfully out the back door.

There is little doubt the Clinton Foundation operated as a charity. But if the FBI documents demonstrate that there was a secondary, hidden purpose devoted to self-dealing and personal enrichment, then prosecution could be pursued against Clinton for racketeering.

According to the Associated Press, more than half the people outside the government who met with Hillary Clinton while she served as secretary of state donated money to her foundation. If Clinton was peddling access, was she also peddling influence? Again, the reported FBI documents seem to answer that question.

But why has there been no prosecution of Clinton? Why did the FBI and the Department of Justice during the Obama administration keep the evidence secret? Was it concealed to prevent a scandal that would poison Barack Obama’s presidency? Was Hillary Clinton being protected in her quest to succeed him?

The answer may lie with the people who were in charge of the investigation and who knew of its explosive impact. Who are they?

Holder, Mueller, Comey & Rosenstein

Eric Holder was the Attorney General when the FBI began uncovering the Russian corruption scheme in 2009. Since the FBI reports to him, he surely knew what the bureau had uncovered.

What’s more, Holder was a member of the “Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States” which approved the uranium sale to the Russians in 2010. Since the vote was unanimous, it appears Holder knowingly and deliberately countenanced a deal that was based on illegal activities and which gave Moscow control of more than 20 percent of America’s uranium assets.

It gets worse. Robert Mueller was the FBI Director during the time of the Russian uranium probe, and so was his successor James Comey who took over in 2013 as the FBI was still developing the case. Rod Rosenstein, then-U.S. Attorney, was supervising the case. There is no indication that any of these men ever told Congress of all the incriminating evidence they had discovered and the connection to Clinton. The entire matter was kept secret from the American public.

It may be no coincidence that Mueller (now special counsel) and Rosenstein (now Deputy Attorney General) are the two top people currently investigating whether the Trump campaign conspired with the Russians to influence the 2016 presidential election. Mueller reports to Rosenstein, while Comey is a key witness in the case.

It is not unreasonable to conclude that Mueller, Rosenstein and Comey may have covered up potential crimes involving Clinton and Russia, but are now determined to find some evidence that Trump “colluded” with Russia.

If this is true, Mueller and Rosenstein should immediately recuse themselves from the case. How can Americans have confidence in the outcome of the Trump-Russia matter if the integrity and impartiality of the lead investigators has been compromised by their suspected cover-up of the Clinton-Russia case?

And, if the evidence is as compelling as reported, a second special prosecutor should be appointed to determine whether Hillary Clinton and others should be indicted for crimes of corruption.

After accusing Trump for close to a year, we still have no evidence. Now we know why. The evidence here is what I have talked about for months.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is where you drug me into this filth.

You support and defend the POTUS who brought us this filth. I didn't put you there. I'm just not letting you forget it. I didn't ask you to bring your wife into it. That was your own choosing. You say Trump's just rude. No big deal. You're rude. I'm rude. So what? That's the way you like it. You hate political correctness. So this is where we are. Get used to it. Trump may be top dog for awhile. He might get a second term. Viciously going after people is his forte. You are a disciple of a master abuser. Now you're going to blame it on me. That's funny.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Clinton cover-up, brought to you by the same guys who are investigating Trump, by Gregg Jarrett:



After accusing Trump for close to a year, we still have no evidence. Now we know why. The evidence here is what I have talked about for months.

Fake news from the Fox Spin Factory. You live in the Fox echo chamber. No evidence? How do you know.? The investigation is ongoing and the findings haven't been released yet. But it's important for the Trumpers to shoot the messengers and impugn their reputations before the findings are released. Rather than making America great, Trump is leading us to a new low. Don't complain about filth. You voted for it.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

You support and defend the POTUS who brought us this filth. I didn't put you there. I'm just not letting you forget it. I didn't ask you to bring your wife into it. That was your own choosing. You say Trump's just rude. No big deal. You're rude. I'm rude. So what? That's the way you like it. You hate political correctness. So this is where we are. Get used to it. Trump may be top dog for awhile. He might get a second term. Viciously going after people is his forte. You are a disciple of a master abuser. Now you're going to blame it on me. That's funny.

Maybe Ohio would let the POTUS grab his wife, I don't know. Like Trump said, if you are famous, people will let you do anything you like.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Maybe Ohio would let the POTUS grab his wife, I don't know. Like Trump said, if you are famous, people will let you do anything you like.

Have you seen the fawning expression on the face of ultra Evangelical Mike Pence when he looks at Trump? What's wrong with Evangelical Christians in this country? They're dancing with the devil.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Have you seen the fawning expression on the face of ultra Evangelical Mike Pence when he looks at Trump? What's wrong with Evangelical Christians in this country? They're dancing with the devil.

Yes he always has that mesmerized look.

[zeek]

Conservative Governor Rick Scott declared an emergency to handle some of Trump's "fine people" who are coming to University of Florida to stir up violence. https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news...te-nationalist

[zeek]

General Kelly confirmed that Trump said what the Congresswoman and wife of slain soldier said he said after Trump denied it.

[zeek]

Ohio likes to call other people "snowflakes" but he melts when it gets too hot for him on Alt Views.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

You support and defend the POTUS who brought us this filth. I didn't put you there. I'm just not letting you forget it. I didn't ask you to bring your wife into it. That was your own choosing. You say Trump's just rude. No big deal. You're rude. I'm rude. So what? That's the way you like it. You hate political correctness. So this is where we are. Get used to it. Trump may be top dog for awhile. He might get a second term. Viciously going after people is his forte. You are a disciple of a master abuser. Now you're going to blame it on me. That's funny.

Why are you continuing to waste our time with this trivial BS, when the news which is relevant to this thread has recently broken that Clinton and Obama appear to be involved in collusion with Russia than Trump has been (to this point). This in turn explains the inexplicable, why Obama gave Trump a relative free pass during the election.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why are you continuing to waste our time with this trivial BS, when the news which is relevant to this thread has recently broken that Clinton and Obama appear to be involved in collusion with Russia than Trump has been (to this point). This in turn explains the inexplicable, why Obama gave Trump a relative free pass during the election.

Groping women is trivial to you whereas this Fox News diversionary extravaganza is TRUTH. Fox is Trump's propaganda machine. Did Hannity get into your head? Or was it ****er Carlson?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Groping women is trivial to you whereas this Fox News diversionary extravaganza is TRUTH. Fox is Trump's propaganda machine. Did Hannity get into your head? Or was it ****er Carlson?

I don't watch Hannity or Carlson.

Groping women -- are you talking about Harvey? Not relevant to this thread. Or are you rehashing footage played a year ago that was from a number of years prior to that?

Would I vote for someone so despicable? No. But tens of millions of Americans did, and a majority of electoral votes, the ones that actually count, did too.

As a result I have recognized that reality. I welcome and support the Mueller investigation, wherever it leads. Apparently it has led to prior administrations being in bed with foreign governments. No shock there, something we suspected, and a reasonable explanation for their apparent paralysis in dealing with Trump.

This last election was about corruption. Enough people voted that they were not going to tolerate business as usual any longer to put an orange president in office. I say Amen. Let's deal with it, not change the subject.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't watch Hannity or Carlson.

Groping women -- are you talking about Harvey? Not relevant to this thread. Or are you rehashing footage played a year ago that was from a number of years prior to that?

Would I vote for someone so despicable? No. But tens of millions of Americans did, and a majority of electoral votes, the ones that actually count, did too.

As a result I have recognized that reality. I welcome and support the Mueller investigation, wherever it leads. Apparently it has led to prior administrations being in bed with foreign governments. No shock there, something we suspected, and a reasonable explanation for their apparent paralysis in dealing with Trump.

This last election was about corruption. Enough people voted that they were not going to tolerate business as usual any longer to put an orange president in office. I say Amen. Let's deal with it, not change the subject.

The Russian allegations are much more serious.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Russian allegations are much more serious.

Do you really think we are only talking about Russians now? What about Chinese? What about Saudis?

What you need is a foundation, something these countries can give money to, something you could then use for anything, even your daughter's wedding.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Would I vote for someone so despicable? No. But tens of millions of Americans did, and a majority of electoral votes, the ones that actually count, did too.

As Donald Trump once said "The electoral college is a disaster for democracy".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't watch Hannity or Carlson.

You should reconsider Hannity. He is a Christian and a patriot. His morals are above reproach. His guests are the most informative. He is the only one, for example, who has tirelessly worked to expose the "real" Russian collusion with Uraniam One and the Clinton Foundation.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Would I vote for someone so despicable? No. But tens of millions of Americans did, and a majority of electoral votes, the ones that actually count, did too.

Despicable? I thought it was deplorable!

My take is that all politicians are crooks and liars. It goes with the job description, and I am convinced that lawyers are the best liars. For me the bottom line is patriotism. Will they sell out national security for personal gain?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

As Donald Trump once said "The electoral college is a disaster for democracy".

At which point Hillary lectured Trump on our American system -- that even if he won the popular vote, she would win the electoral college vote.

I'm fed up with all their dishonest pleas for "democracy." Just obey the laws like the rest of us have to. How is it that our "chief law enforcement officer" could inform us that no "reasonable" prosecutor would bring charges? That alone exposes our corrupt double standard.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm fed up with all their dishonest pleas for "democracy." Just obey the laws like the rest of us have to. How is it that our "chief law enforcement officer" could inform us that no "reasonable" prosecutor would bring charges? That alone exposes our corrupt double standard.

This is the crux of the matter. This is why democracy is so weak. This is also why it was necessary for their to be false prophets among us, so we could be trained in how to deal with these frauds.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is the crux of the matter. This is why democracy is so weak. This is also why it was necessary for their to be false prophets among us, so we could be trained in how to deal with these frauds.

If Trump releases exposing JFK documents, it might strike a blow to the deep state, the biggest threat to our democratic republic.

[awareness]

Bro Ohio was right :

North Korea could wipe out 90 per cent of US population if it launches super-electromagnetic pulse attack, former CIA and nuclear strategist warns

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...opulation.html

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

Grabbing...... is just being Christian for Ohio.

Hey mister moderator!? I'll be deleting this one shortly, and will thank you to warn all the regulars on Alt Views
that it will only take me a few seconds to make this place password protected again,
or maybe just remove the link altogether from the forum Home Page.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey mister moderator!? I'll be deleting this one shortly, and will thank you to warn all the regulars on Alt Views
that it will only take me a few seconds to make this place password protected again,
or maybe just remove the link altogether from the forum Home Page.

Well I agree the ad hom wasn't right, and maybe the term after grabber.

But bad boy zeek, who got me in trouble too, makes a valid point.

Cuz over 80% of evangelicals supported Trump, the Grabber-in-Chief.

They, including bro Ohio, condemned Bill Clinton, but give Trump a pass.

Maybe bro zeek can learn to make that point without the ad hom, and select a different term than the one PRESIDENT Trump used.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey mister moderator!? I'll be deleting this one shortly, and will thank you to warn all the regulars on Alt Views
that it will only take me a few seconds to make this place password protected again,
or maybe just remove the link altogether from the forum Home Page.

Good idea.

Check their ID's too.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I agree the ad hom wasn't right, and maybe the term after grabber.

But bad boy zeek, who got me in trouble too, makes a valid point.

Cuz over 80% of evangelicals supported Trump, the Grabber-in-Chief.

They, including bro Ohio, condemned Bill Clinton, but give Trump a pass.

Maybe bro zeek can learn to make that point without the ad hom, and select a different term than the one PRESIDENT Trump used.

Can we call Trump a "female genitalia grabber"?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I agree the ad hom wasn't right, and maybe the term after grabber.

But bad boy zeek, who got me in trouble too, makes a valid point.

Cuz over 80% of evangelicals supported Trump, the Grabber-in-Chief.

They, including bro Ohio, condemned Bill Clinton, but give Trump a pass.

Maybe bro zeek can learn to make that point without the ad hom, and select a different term than the one PRESIDENT Trump used.

There was nothing valid about that point. There is no support for saying that Christians voted for Trump because of his faith, nor is there any support for saying that voting for a person must be aligned to their faith.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Can we call Trump a "female genitalia grabber".

Call Trump whatever you like, but he isn't a Christian, and voting for him doesn't mean that a Christian is aligning with every sin he has committed.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

Can we call Trump a "female genitalia grabber"?

Not if you want this forum board to be publicly accessible without a password. Why should women/sisters/children be exposed to the vulgar and childish banter of a Junior High School boy's locker room? I didn't start this forum for such things. If Donald Trump was a current or former Local Churcher I might be willing to give some slack on this.

You (zeek), awareness and ZNP are older fellows. You're big time thinkers. The first should make you less likely to be wasting your time (with less time to waste) and the second should make you want to elevate the level of discourse...at least above the level of the stinky swamp I've seen in perusing this thread.

As for Ohio, I think he would make far better use of his time and efforts over on the main forum.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There was nothing valid about that point. There is no support for saying that Christians voted for Trump because of his faith, nor is there any support for saying that voting for a person must be aligned to their faith.

Tell that to Frank Graham Jr, and Jerry Falwell Jr.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Not if you want this forum board to be publicly accessible without a password. Why should women/sisters/children be exposed to the vulgar and childish banter of a Junior High School boy's locker room? I didn't start this forum for such things. If Donald Trump was a current or former Local Churcher I might be willing to give some slack on this.

You (zeek), awareness and ZNP are older fellows. You're big time thinkers. The first should make you less likely to be wasting your time (with less time to waste) and the second should make you want to elevate the level of discourse...at least above the level of the stinky swamp I've seen in perusing this thread.

As for Ohio, I think he would make far better use of his time and efforts over on the main forum.
-

So true. It's gotten to where we can't talk like our presidents. However, our children and grandchildren can't avoid it. Our presidents have become too indecent for families and children.

So your protection of them bro Untohim, will fail ... sorry to say.

You didn't start this forum for such things, I understand. And I feel that I don't want the presidents that we've had in relatively recent times ... except Obama. He kept it clean, and is a good family man. But evangelicals I've related with, here in this neck of the woods, didn't like that they had a black president. They'd take Trump (and did here in Ky) over Obama any day.

And maybe our time would be better spent if we joined bro Ohio on the main forum ... if you could stand "big thinkers" on it.

[zeek]

"The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about President Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said." [Washington Post]

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

"The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about President Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said." [Washington Post]

Doesn't prove it is false, however the source is clearly biased with an agenda, so that should be taken into account.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Tell that to Frank Graham Jr, and Jerry Falwell Jr.

That is idiotic. You had two choices. There was no "Christian" candidate. There were essentially 4 options open to American Citizens:

1. Hillary Clinton -- voting for her is not equivalent to agreeing to fraud, deceit, and using political power for your personal advantage.

2. Donald Trump -- voting for him doesn't mean you agree with his more vulgar and despicable comments.

As we know many people were voting against one of the other candidate rather than for either one.

3. Don't vote -- this was my option, unfairly maligned by many. I felt that since one of these two deplorable candidates was going to win the fewer overall people that voted the better. No mandate.

4. Protest vote -- you can always write in a vote. I could see writing in Bernie Sanders or John Kasich. But only if the media would point out that there were so many million votes for one or the other. Since they don't do that I felt this approach would be negative because they would still count you as someone who voted.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Doesn't prove it is false, however the source is clearly biased with an agenda, so that should be taken into account.

I agree. But, politically score one for Trump.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree. But, politically score one for Trump.

As long as we are keeping score how much did he give those in the Whitehouse to pay for their legal expenses, that should count as score one for his antagonists.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is idiotic. You had two choices. There was no "Christian" candidate. There were essentially 4 options open to American Citizens:

1. Hillary Clinton -- voting for her is not equivalent to agreeing to fraud, deceit, and using political power for your personal advantage.

2. Donald Trump -- voting for him doesn't mean you agree with his more vulgar and despicable comments.

As we know many people were voting against one of the other candidate rather than for either one.

3. Don't vote -- this was my option, unfairly maligned by many. I felt that since one of these two deplorable candidates was going to win the fewer overall people that voted the better. No mandate.

4. Protest vote -- you can always write in a vote. I could see writing in Bernie Sanders or John Kasich. But only if the media would point out that there were so many million votes for one or the other. Since they don't do that I felt this approach would be negative because they would still count you as someone who voted.

So you went with your Christian conscience ... unlike over 80% of evangelicals. Good for you bro.

[zeek]

The Senate has voted to nullify a consumer-oriented rule that would let millions of Americans band together to sue their banks or credit card companies.

Vice President Mike Pence has cast the tie-breaking vote to stop the rule from going into effect. ypost.com/2017/10/24/pence-casts-deciding-vote-as-senate-strikes-down-rule-on-suits-against-banks/

Score a big victory for banks against the ordinary consumer.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

"The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about President Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said." [Washington Post]

I've been against the DNC since they rigged against Bernie. How can the pubbies lose with the DNC fighting for them.

Both parties are FUBAR. Washington has been taken over by big money, and Trump and the pubbies, plus the DNC, will only ensure it continues. Can we say kleptocracy?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you went with your Christian conscience ... unlike over 80% of evangelicals. Good for you bro.

I think you mean 80% of Evangelicals who are promoting their point of view publicly in order to influence others. Which, ironically, doesn't sound like a true Evangelical.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Score a big victory for banks against the ordinary consumer.

And there they are still undefeated, even after mortgage crisis. Now you can appreciate the value in giving campaign contributions to your congressman.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you went with your Christian conscience ... unlike over 80% of evangelicals. Good for you bro.

Do you live in a house of mirrors?

The voting booth is not church service. You don't vote with your conscience, you vote with sound reason and judgment, i.e. you vote with your mind.

Isn't it amazing how liberals can zoom past Hillary's hatred of women victimized by Bill, and treason in selling our uranium reserves to Russia, and criminal negligence related to national security with a server in the bathroom, lack of any conviction or moral values, etc. etc. and then zoom in on the Donald's locker room boasting with Billy Bush.

But, hey, it ought to be worth something in the great bye and bye for you to be able to claim that 80% of those stupid evangelicals don't even have a conscience.

Yup. Those darn Christians. When will they ever forsake their stupid faith, and embrace the wonders of modern science. Cause science always wins! Right? And Ole Hillary is a science major like AlGore, who gave us the rising oceans.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't it amazing how liberals can zoom past Hillary's hatred of women victimized by Bill, and treason in selling our uranium reserves to Russia, and criminal negligence related to national security with a server in the bathroom, lack of any conviction or moral values, etc. etc. and then zoom in on the Donald's locker room boasting with Billy Bush.

I agree that anyone who claims there is something wrong with your conscience for voting for Trump instead of Clinton is a hypocrite.

Every citizen had the right to vote for either one for whatever reason they settled on. But to try and claim that either one of those candidates was somehow a more Christian choice is total Bull Feces.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree that anyone who claims there is something wrong with your conscience for voting for Trump instead of Clinton is a hypocrite.

Every citizen had the right to vote for either one for whatever reason they settled on. But to try and claim that either one of those candidates was somehow a more Christian choice is total Bull Feces.

Trump is an impatient man. He is on a mission to fulfill what he promised on the campaign trail, which is an amazing thing these days, since we are so used to politicians lying to us to get elected. We have a congress which is so used to doing nothing, never fulfilling promises they make, that it is inevitable that there will be conflicts with a president like Trump. What McCain did on ObamaCare was unbelievably petty.

Even Pres. Jimmy Carter commented that he has never seen a president take a beating like Trump. He has been relentlessly attacked by the media smear machine for months. Can you blame him for fighting back? Personally I was lukewarm on him until I began to see his appointments and decisions. Now we are learning that the entire "Russian collusion" attacks on Trump were all fake news to coverup treasonous and criminal actions by the Obama Administration.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trump is an impatient man. He is on a mission to fulfill what he promised on the campaign trail, which is an amazing thing these days, since we are so used to politicians lying to us to get elected. We have a congress which is so used to doing nothing, never fulfilling promises they make, that it is inevitable that there will be conflicts with a president like Trump. What McCain did on ObamaCare was unbelievably petty.

Even Pres. Jimmy Carter commented that he has never seen a president take a beating like Trump. He has been relentlessly attacked by the media smear machine for months. Can you blame him for fighting back? Personally I was lukewarm on him until I began to see his appointments and decisions. Now we are learning that the entire "Russian collusion" attacks on Trump were all fake news to coverup treasonous and criminal actions by the Obama Administration.

Well I really appreciate your input on this forum because I do not know anyone who speaks favorably about him, so your input gives perspective on why some Americans support him. I agree that this is the most toxic political environment I have ever seen, and I watched fist fights in Taiwan legislature.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you live in a house of mirrors?

The voting booth is not church service. You don't vote with your conscience, you vote with sound reason and judgment, i.e. you vote with your mind.

Isn't it amazing how liberals can zoom past Hillary's hatred of women victimized by Bill, and treason in selling our uranium reserves to Russia, and criminal negligence related to national security with a server in the bathroom, lack of any conviction or moral values, etc. etc. and then zoom in on the Donald's locker room boasting with Billy Bush.

But, hey, it ought to be worth something in the great bye and bye for you to be able to claim that 80% of those stupid evangelicals don't even have a conscience.

Yup. Those darn Christians. When will they ever forsake their stupid faith, and embrace the wonders of modern science. Cause science always wins! Right? And Ole Hillary is a science major like AlGore, who gave us the rising oceans.

Oh I agree with you about liberals, and Hillary. And I'm sorry if voting my conscience makes me a liberal. I couldn't vote for Hillary. I think I've mentioned that I was done with the Clinton's and Bush's.

But my conscience wouldn't let me vote for Trump either. I should have not voted like bro ZNP. I wrote in Cruz, throwing my vote away. And I don't even like Cruz. That's how crazy this vote made me.

And I can see holding your nose and voting for Trump. But it's another thing to endorse him, and shill for him by actively throwing you support to him.

Christians like Graham Jr. and Falwell that threw their support to Trump, thus influencing their followers to support him, sure weren't listening to their Christian conscience.

Good Christians should have been like bro ZNP and not voted for either one. They both suck. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh I agree with you about liberals, and Hillary. And I'm sorry if voting my conscience makes me a liberal. I couldn't vote for Hillary. I think I've mentioned that I was done with the Clinton's and Bush's.

But my conscience wouldn't let me vote for Trump either. I should have not voted like bro ZNP. I wrote in Cruz, throwing my vote away. And I don't even like Cruz. That's how crazy this vote made me.

And I can see holding your nose and voting for Trump. But it's another thing to endorse him, and shill for him by actively throwing you support to him.

Christians like Graham Jr. and Falwell that threw their support to Trump, thus influencing their followers to support him, sure weren't listening to their Christian conscience.

Good Christians should have been like bro ZNP and not voted for either one. They both suck. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

I'm truly amazed that you are able to determine who are the "good Christians" and who are not. And you know that no good Christian could possibly vote for Trump.

Apparently there are many Christian leaders out there, and you, the omniscient knower of hearts, is able to determine that they were not listening to their Christian conscience. This is truly incredible!

You regularly dismiss and discredit the Biblical records we love because they cannot be known with certainty, but what you know is different. You know who are all the good Christians, and you know how they must vote, and you know who is not obeying their conscience.

Amazing! Quite delusional. But amazing!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm truly amazed that you are able to determine who are the "good Christians" and who are not. And you know that no good Christian could possibly vote for Trump.

Apparently there are many Christian leaders out there, and you, the omniscient knower of hearts, is able to determine that they were not listening to their Christian conscience. This is truly incredible!

You regularly dismiss and discredit the Biblical records we love because they cannot be known with certainty, but what you know is different. You know who are all the good Christians, and you know how they must vote, and you know who is not obeying their conscience.

Amazing! Quite delusional. But amazing!

You give me more credit than I deserve. I'm not all that. Neither am I an evangelical christian. I grew up with that. So maybe I'm too hard on evangelicals.

From what I read in the gospels Jesus wasn't a political animal. So should his followers be political? Methinks Christians have lost the spiritual battle in their churches, have waxed political to try and make up for it, and have lost their way. They've lost track of Jesus. Political leaders are now more important to them.

But that's just me. Personally I can't stand the two Jr.'s ; riding on their father's coattails, without their mojo. And Frank Graham is a disgrace to his father, while Falwell Jr. is just carrying on his fathers political legacy, that I also didn't agree with ; the moral majority was neither.

But my opinions don't matter. Trump is now turning the churches into political entities. Let's see how that works out. Does that make you happy bro Ohio, that the pulpit, will now be the bullpit? Yea Jesus. Render to Caesar, not so much to God (unless it's politically expedient).
.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You give me more credit than I deserve. I'm not all that. Neither am I an evangelical christian. I grew up with that. So maybe I'm too hard on evangelicals.

From what I read in the gospels Jesus wasn't a political animal. So should his followers be political? Methinks Christians have lost the spiritual battle in their churches, have waxed political to try and make up for it, and have lost their way. They've lost track of Jesus. Political leaders are now more important to them.

But that's just me. Personally I can't stand the two Jr.'s ; riding on their father's coattails, without their mojo. And Frank Graham is a disgrace to his father, while Falwell Jr. is just carrying on his fathers political legacy, that I also didn't agree with ; the moral majority was neither.

But my opinions don't matter. Trump is now turning the churches into political entities. Let's see how that works out. Does that make you happy bro Ohio, that the pulpit, will now be the bullpit? Yea Jesus. Render to Caesar, not so much to God (unless it's politically expedient).
.

So you grew up an evangelical, so now you are not?

Your family was So. Baptist, so you having nothing good to say about any of them?

You don't like Falwell or Graham, so you blast all churches as bully pulpits for political gain?

Do you have anything good to say about Jesus, the Bible, the church, or Christians? Since you can know all the hearts, have you found any good in there?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

You give me more credit than I deserve. I'm not all that. Neither am I an evangelical christian. I grew up with that. So maybe I'm too hard on evangelicals.

From what I read in the gospels Jesus wasn't a political animal. So should his followers be political? Methinks Christians have lost the spiritual battle in their churches, have waxed political to try and make up for it, and have lost their way. They've lost track of Jesus. Political leaders are now more important to them.

But that's just me. Personally I can't stand the two Jr.'s ; riding on their father's coattails, without their mojo. And Frank Graham is a disgrace to his father, while Falwell Jr. is just carrying on his fathers political legacy, that I also didn't agree with ; the moral majority was neither.

But my opinions don't matter. Trump is now turning the churches into political entities. Let's see how that works out. Does that make you happy bro Ohio, that the pulpit, will now be the bullpit? Yea Jesus. Render to Caesar, not so much to God (unless it's politically expedient).
.

I suppose this topic was the original intent of this thread. IMO Politics is weak and ineffective at doing anything meaningful. I see the gospel and Jesus salvation as the real avenues that are able to make a difference. That said anyone who is a US citizen has the right to vote and is free to exercise that right. I agree with you that a "Christian ministry" which is a political lobbyist has "lost their way". I don't view them as a Christian ministry rather, I see them as a political lobbyist that hopes to conquer by carrying this sign, much like Constantine.

[Ohio]

We are now learning that the entire Russian collusion is a farce and a smear job to coverup untold corruption and treason in the obama administration. Does any of this info change you attitude toward him or the current prez?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are now learning that the entire Russian collusion is a farce and a smear job to coverup untold corruption and treason in the obama administration. Does any of this info change you attitude toward him or the current prez?

Not in the least. I expect that during the investigation stage both sides will use the press to push their agenda and prejudice people. I am waiting for Mueller to present his findings.

I have assumed our political process was corrupt to the core since the Box 13 scandal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Not in the least. I expect that during the investigation stage both sides will use the press to push their agenda and prejudice people. I am waiting for Mueller to present his findings.

I have assumed our political process was corrupt to the core since the Box 13 scandal.

Without the fraudulent dossier, there would be no FISA order, there would be no unmasking, there would be no leaks to the Press, there would be no special counsel, there would be no main stream media smear machine, etc.

Then you might have a clear head to reconsider some of Trump's accomplishments.

Do you give Trump any credit for standing up against deep state, liberal bias, and attempting to drain the swamp?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are now learning that the entire Russian collusion is a farce and a smear job to coverup untold corruption and treason in the obama administration. Does any of this info change you attitude toward him or the current prez?

It's not that simple. Political campaigns routinely pay investigators to generate "opposition research" [read "dirt"] on their adversaries. That's reportedly what Trump Jr. sought when he met with the Russians.

The infamous dossier about Trump's connections to Russia was originally solicited by one of his Republican primary opponents in 2016. The identity of that campaign hasn't been confirmed, but Trump suggested on Wednesday he might know it.

Later — presumably after the initial Republican sponsor's campaign ended with Trump's victory in a primary — Democrats and Clinton's campaign began paying Fusion GPS to keep up its work. The FBI also is said to have paid for it, although it cut off its relationship with the British investigator after his name became public.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you have anything good to say about Jesus, the Bible, the church, or Christians? Since you can know all the hearts, have you found any good in there?

I did. I said that Jesus wasn't a political animal.

I love all my S. Baptist family members.

And maybe I don't know hearts, but the Bible does ... and you know it.

Genesis 6:5 - Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I suppose this topic was the original intent of this thread. IMO Politics is weak and ineffective at doing anything meaningful. I see the gospel and Jesus salvation as the real avenues that are able to make a difference. That said anyone who is a US citizen has the right to vote and is free to exercise that right. I agree with you that a "Christian ministry" which is a political lobbyist has "lost their way". I don't view them as a Christian ministry rather, I see them as a political lobbyist that hopes to conquer by carrying this sign, much like Constantine.

Political activism should be the work of Christians, and not churches.

The irony here is incredible. One day Christians are condemned for being active in the political arena, and the next day Christians are soundly chastised for being silent, and thus complicit to every manner of evil.

One thing progressives and LC folks have in common is this tendency to condemn all things Christian, and completely ignore all the "good works" accomplished in the name of Christ for decades.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I did. I said that Jesus wasn't a political animal.

I love all my S. Baptist family members.

And maybe I don't know hearts, but the Bible does ... and you know it.

Genesis 6:5 - Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Which is it? Jesus wasn't political, or Jesus wasn't an animal?

Paul appealed to Caesar. Was that political?

Neither the Bible nor I can know others' hearts, only God. (Acts 15.8)

God judged mankind in Noah's day, and that should be a great warning to us, but remember, those in Christ receive a new heart. You seem to be obsessed with others' failures, and never see their good.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which is it? Jesus wasn't political, or Jesus wasn't an animal?

According to John Jesus was an animal just like the rest of us. And he wasn't a political animal, unlike his most avid followers of today.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You seem to be obsessed with others' failures, and never see their good.

And you seem to be defending all of Christianity, even the RCC.

But here's some more material about Christians supporting Trump :

HOW AMERICA’S CHARISMATIC CHRISTIANITY HELPED FUEL THE FANTASYLAND PRESIDENCY OF DONALD TRUMP
http://religiondispatches.org/how-am...-donald-trump/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Without the fraudulent dossier, there would be no FISA order, there would be no unmasking, there would be no leaks to the Press, there would be no special counsel, there would be no main stream media smear machine, etc.

Then you might have a clear head to reconsider some of Trump's accomplishments.

Do you give Trump any credit for standing up against deep state, liberal bias, and attempting to drain the swamp?

No. I am unable to determine if this is real or tilting at windmills. Why should any president get credit for "attempting to do something" (that is like giving the Knicks credit for "trying to win"). If he, like Teddy Roosevelt, is actually able to drain the swamp I will give him all the credit. Teddy Roosevelt is one of my favorite presidents. I put him alongside Washington and Lincoln.

But if he presides over this law preventing those whose identity is stolen due to the Equifax hack from suing, then no way.

As for the "main stream media smear machine" that is politics. By definition you will have opposing interests and these will use any and all means to advance their agenda. We saw this with Bush, Clinton, Obama and now Trump. The only difference is in the way in which each has responded with Trump's response being truly unique.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Political activism should be the work of Christians, and not churches.

The irony here is incredible. One day Christians are condemned for being active in the political arena, and the next day Christians are soundly chastised for being silent, and thus complicit to every manner of evil.

One thing progressives and LC folks have in common is this tendency to condemn all things Christian, and completely ignore all the "good works" accomplished in the name of Christ for decades.

I don't condemn any Christian for "being active in the political arena" but just as Paul said "don't lay hands on anyone hastily". If you want credit for being politically active then it is fair to accurately assess that credit.

[zeek]

Here's a modest proposal: https://stream.org/since-jesus-get-connected-guns/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's a modest proposal: https://stream.org/since-jesus-get-connected-guns/

I meet with evangelical Christian group and never once in 20 years have I heard the slightest mention of support for guns or any other political motivation to support gun legislation. Also, we have many, many guest speakers from around the country. In addition I have visited two of the other largest evangelical assemblies here in NY (one in Brooklyn, the other in Manhattan -- I am in Queens). As far as my experience is concerned these two issues couldn't be more separate than they already are. That is not to say that they aren't politically active, they are. They were instrumental in bringing awareness to the genocide taking place in Sudan. In addition, NYC has the most restrictive gun laws in the country -- so if any evangelicals championed this issue you would expect them to have a strong presence in NYC.

I always feel like the people proposing to Christians about what they should and should not do are not Christians, and have no idea what Christians are doing. (BTW I have only seen guns in the homes of three Christian saints, all three were in the LRC -- one was the elder in Odessa -- an avid hunter, one was a policeman in Irving TX, and the third worked private security in NYC and had a license to carry, very difficult to obtain).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's a modest proposal: https://stream.org/since-jesus-get-connected-guns/

Christianity is known for peddling in fear. So Christians here in this neck of the woods in Ky. are packing guns to church, out of fear. It fits nicely.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Christianity is known for peddling in fear. So Christians here in this neck of the woods in Ky. are packing guns to church, out of fear. It fits nicely.

Those darn Christians always going to church.

Just think about what this earth would be like without them?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Those darn Christians always going to church.

Just think about what this earth would be like without them?

You mean without the crusades and inquisitions, and burning of witches, heretics, and scientists?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You mean without the crusades and inquisitions, and burning of witches, heretics, and scientists?

Crusades were bad?

Without the Crusades, there would be no Judeo-Christian Western world. The so-called "religion of peace" would have conquered Europe in the 11th and 12th century, rather than the 21st century.

Today you would probably be a Sunny Mooslim rather than a dreaded So. Baptist.

No more hated computers either. Or universities, skyscrapers, hospitals.

I could see you as a tribal chicken farmer. Mooslims like chicken don't they?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Crusades were bad?

Without the Crusades, there would be no Judeo-Christian Western world. The so-called "religion of peace" would have conquered Europe in the 11th and 12th century, rather than the 21st century.

Today you would probably be a Sunny Mooslim rather than a dreaded So. Baptist.

No more hated computers either. Or universities, skyscrapers, hospitals.

I could see you as a tribal chicken farmer. Mooslims like chicken don't they?

No I'd be dead. Cuz I'd be critical of that cradle religion too. But so would I if I came up in the 11th or 12th centuries. The church of Rome would have toasted my tootsies too.

Thank God I live in a secular world, with secular laws and not religious ones. Religion of every kind has proven to be killers. Thank God for the Enlightenment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

No I'd be dead. Cuz I'd be critical of that cradle religion too. But so would I if I came up in the 11th or 12th centuries. The church of Rome would have toasted my tootsies too.

Thank God I live in a secular world, with secular laws and not religious ones. Religion of every kind has proven to be killers. Thank God for the Enlightenment.

Secular World with Secular Laws? Are you serious?

Reminds me of all the anti-religious communist dictators. Over 100 Million people in the 20th century died at the hands of their own governments while being "protected" by their "secular laws."

There have never been any decent "secular" countries, with secular laws. Your hatred of all things religious has, like Lee himself, blinded you to the 90% of good religious people trying to make a better life for those around them.

Sorry Bro, but your views of history have all been distorted by white-guilt revisionism.

Time to tear down another American monument?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

No I'd be dead. Cuz I'd be critical of that cradle religion too. But so would I if I came up in the 11th or 12th centuries. The church of Rome would have toasted my tootsies too.

Thank God I live in a secular world, with secular laws and not religious ones. Religion of every kind has proven to be killers. Thank God for the Enlightenment.

"One secular nation under God"

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Secular World with Secular Laws? Are you serious?

Reminds me of all the anti-religious communist dictators. Over 100 Million people in the 20th century died at the hands of their own governments while being "protected" by their "secular laws."

There have never been any decent "secular" countries, with secular laws. Your hatred of all things religious has, like Lee himself, blinded you to the 90% of good religious people trying to make a better life for those around them.

Sorry Bro, but your views of history have all been distorted by white-guilt revisionism.

Time to tear down another American monument?

Secularism has killed more people than religion, that's a fact, easily supported by the numbers. Why? Because secularism does not value human life as much as religion does. Muslims and Christians both respect humans because they are made in God's (or Allah's) image. Secularism treats humans like pieces of biological material, or animals. Religions try hard to avoid war and killing if possible. Secularism sees it as a necessary evil or like pest extermination.

Now there's a caveat - many of the so-called Christian and Muslim countries are in fact secular, but claim some sort of devotion to a higher power but not following it. I would put modern day UK and America and most of Europe in this category as well. In fact I cannot think of a country with a truly religious government these days.

[ZNPaaneah]

This argument by Awareness is a fool's argument. You have to first define religion before you can blame religion for various ills. If we define religion as taking care of widows and orphans and keeping yourself unspotted from the world as James does then all of these sins were not committed by religion but rather by evil men and impostors hiding under a cloak of "religion".

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This argument by Awareness is a fool's argument. You have to first define religion before you can blame religion for various ills. If we define religion as taking care of widows and orphans and keeping yourself unspotted from the world as James does then all of these sins were not committed by religion but rather by evil men and impostors hiding under a cloak of "religion".

Yes, or even by the definition of religion as that contrary to Christ's person, religion is used as a mask.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes, or even by the definition of religion as that contrary to Christ's person, religion is used as a mask.

If a serial killer dresses us as a cop to gain trust, does that make the cops serial killers? According to Awareness apparently it does. Just because evil men disguise themselves as workers of light doesn't make it so.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If a serial killer dresses us as a cop to gain trust, does that make the cops serial killers? According to Awareness apparently it does. Just because evil men disguise themselves as workers of light doesn't make it so.

When we think about it, it is not religion vs secular, but good vs evil, light vs darkness, only two kinds of people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This argument by Awareness is a fool's argument. You have to first define religion before you can blame religion for various ills. If we define religion as taking care of widows and orphans and keeping yourself unspotted from the world as James does then all of these sins were not committed by religion but rather by evil men and impostors hiding under a cloak of "religion".

His prejudices towards all religion and religious people blinds him from objective observations. How else can someone respond to the condemnation of all Christians based upon 12th century crusades? It seems that awareness gets his church history from politically correct CNN news anchors.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

You mean without the crusades and inquisitions, and burning of witches, heretics, and scientists?

Ohio is right (and I don't say that every often) - secularism did not exist during the time of the crusades and if one was not Christian then they would be Muslim, so the crusades were in fact a good thing. Even if you were secular at the time, people at the time would identify you as one or the other anyway so trying to be secular would be futile. To see things in black and white is actually a form of legalism related to the tree of knowledge. Secularism is one of many neutral yet Christ-less attempts to avoid only two possibilities I think. The same arguments are applied to Israel vs Palestine or any case with two opposing sides that secularism can supposedly fix.

[zeek]

Paul Manafort, President Trump’s former campaign chairman, and his former business associate Rick Gates were told to surrender to federal authorities Monday morning, the first charges in a special counsel investigation, according to a person involved in the case.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Crusades were bad?

Without the Crusades, there would be no Judeo-Christian Western world. The so-called "religion of peace" would have conquered Europe in the 11th and 12th century, rather than the 21st century.

Today you would probably be a Sunny Mooslim rather than a dreaded So. Baptist.

No more hated computers either. Or universities, skyscrapers, hospitals.

I could see you as a tribal chicken farmer. Mooslims like chicken don't they?

I don't recall Jesus sanctioning killing. I would think war would be an abomination to one known as the Prince of Peace.

How weak would a God have to be if He had to rely on the violence of puny little humans to preserve faith in his true nature?

After the atrocities the Crusaders committed, in what way were they any better than the Muslims they murdered?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't recall Jesus sanctioning killing. I would think war would be an abomination to one known as the Prince of Peace.

How weak would a God have to be if He had to rely on the violence of puny little humans to preserve faith in his true nature?

After the atrocities the Crusaders committed, in what way were they any better than the Muslims they murdered?

That's like accusing Christians of killing Germans during Hitler's expansionism.

Wut? WWII is an abomination to the one known as the Prince of Peace! How weak would a God have to be if He had to rely on the violence of puny little humans to preserve faith in his true nature?

You obviously get your history from Muslam lobbyists.

The Crusades were the response of Muslam aggressions and invasions. They had nothing to do with the faith.

If someone was breaking down your front door, robbing, killing, and raping the women, do you have the right to defend your household?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't recall Jesus sanctioning killing. I would think war would be an abomination to one known as the Prince of Peace.

How weak would a God have to be if He had to rely on the violence of puny little humans to preserve faith in his true nature?

After the atrocities the Crusaders committed, in what way were they any better than the Muslims they murdered?

In what way were they any better than the secularists whose dogma includes "survival of the fittest"?

Why would you think or teach that they were "better"? Only God is good. What we are teaching is that human society as it is today with billions of people has the potential to be better than our society as hunter gatherer bands of ten or twenty. And none of this would be possible without religion, just ask the scientists like Jarred Diamond "Guns, Germs and Steel".

[ZNPaaneah]

"Without rapid cuts in CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions, we will be heading for dangerous temperature increases by the end of this century, well above the target set by the Paris climate change agreement," said WMO Secretary-General Petteri Taalas. "Future generations will inherit a much more inhospitable planet," he added. The last time the Earth experienced a comparable concentration of CO2 was 3-5 million years ago, the temperature was 2-3 degrees Celsius warmer and sea level was 10-20 meters higher than now, the WMO said.

More hurricanes, more forest fires, more floods, more droughts and more diseases. More climate refugees and more wars due to these refugees and loss of arable land. What we have seen the last five years we will see worse the next 5 years.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In what way were they any better than the secularists whose dogma includes "survival of the fittest"?

Why would you think or teach that they were "better"? Only God is good.

It's hard to say anything good about the Crusades. So much was motivated by papal superstitions.

But my point goes back to "who started it." The Saracens, the Mohammedans (today's Muslams) overran the Byzantine Empire and took hold of the Holy Land. No doubt atrocities were committed by both sides, but the people were stirred up to defend themselves against invaders.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Without rapid cuts in CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions, we will be heading for dangerous temperature increases by the end of this century, well above the target set by the Paris climate change agreement," said WMO Secretary-General Petteri Taalas. "Future generations will inherit a much more inhospitable planet," he added. The last time the Earth experienced a comparable concentration of CO2 was 3-5 million years ago, the temperature was 2-3 degrees Celsius warmer and sea level was 10-20 meters higher than now, the WMO said.

This has long been disputed, since all plant vegetation thrives when CO2 levels increase. Bad science!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Paul Manafort, President Trump’s former campaign chairman, and his former business associate Rick Gates were told to surrender to federal authorities Monday morning, the first charges in a special counsel investigation, according to a person involved in the case.

They got busted for Tax Fraud and Money Laundering!

Peanuts compared to the Clinton Foundation.

But hey, it never was about Russian collusion and voter fraud, was it?

Manafort's real crime was leaving the Democratic Party to work for Trump. Bad!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This has long been disputed, since all plant vegetation thrives when CO2 levels increase. Bad science!

Yes it is a complex interaction of many things, but "bad science" it isn't.

For example, as CO2 levels rise in the atmosphere so does acidity in the ocean. Since foraminifera and many microscopic plants use calcium carbonate this creates an inhospitable environment for them. As you might realize, the ocean is 70% of the Earth's surface area and as such is the major factor in processing sunlight. We have accurately measured CO2 levels for the last 50+ years. No one can deny they are rising. No one can deny that the Earth is getting warmer.

The challenges that have been made are:

1. This has happened in the past. This is true and yes it is true that in the past it was not due to man's influence. However, we are now at levels that only occurred during mass extinctions. So a rise in greenhouse gases on this magnitude has occurred in the past, but only during mass extinctions, and this time it is due to man's activity.

2. Earth has a 30,000 year cycle of warming and cooling. This also is true. It is due to changes in Earth's orbit and axis of rotation. But the changes we are seeing are in the chemistry of the atmosphere and the temperature, both of which are completely uncorrelated with the variations in the Earth's orbit.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They got busted for Tax Fraud and Money Laundering!

Peanuts compared to the Clinton Foundation.

But hey, it never was about Russian collusion and voter fraud, was it?

Manafort's real crime was leaving the Democratic Party to work for Trump. Bad!

These are real crimes. Bad crimes. Obviously if Clinton did something worse she can be prosecuted for that and you can be sure the Republicans will come gunning for her first chance they get. Since Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse, well, have at it.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This argument by Awareness is a fool's argument. You have to first define religion before you can blame religion for various ills. If we define religion as taking care of widows and orphans and keeping yourself unspotted from the world as James does then all of these sins were not committed by religion but rather by evil men and impostors hiding under a cloak of "religion".

The Social Security Administration takes care of widows and orphans with Widow's Benefits and Children's Benefits for survivors of deceased workers. Since only Jesus was unspotted from the world, it seems that SSA is as close to James' "definition of religion" as anyone. Thank God for FICA.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They got busted for Tax Fraud and Money Laundering!

Peanuts compared to the Clinton Foundation.

But hey, it never was about Russian collusion and voter fraud, was it?

Manafort's real crime was leaving the Democratic Party to work for Trump. Bad!

Yeah "conspiracy against the United States," "conspiracy to launder money" among the 12 counts against them. No big deal. And former Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos pleads guilty to lying to FBI agents. Again no big deal. It's not like any of these super-patriots is likely to be willing to plea bargain for information about the high crimes and misdemeanors of the Big Fish.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The Social Security Administration takes care of widows and orphans with Widow's Benefits and Children's Benefits for survivors of deceased workers. Since only Jesus was unspotted from the world, it seems that SSA is as close to James' "definition of religion" as anyone. Thank God for FICA.

I have already told you that scientists (archaeologists) have come to realize that religion is one of the four key reasons that man can live in states and empires (human civilizations of thousands and millions). Something no other mammal can even come close to doing. Your point supports this conclusion.

In the Bible the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil = the Agricultural revolution. Adam as the first man likely refers to the beginning of written language, apart from which we are not men in God's image and after His likeness. The covenant with Noah refers to both the organization into larger chieftains and states and also the care for widows and orphans (the people murdered were most often men, leaving wives widowed and children orphaned). Abraham shows that this state has become spotted by the world (idolatry). Isaac learns that this kingdom is built on righteousness. Israel learns that in this kingdom there needs to be a place for everyone, not to play favorites.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Secular World with Secular Laws? Are you serious?

Reminds me of all the anti-religious communist dictators. Over 100 Million people in the 20th century died at the hands of their own governments while being "protected" by their "secular laws."

There have never been any decent "secular" countries, with secular laws. Your hatred of all things religious has, like Lee himself, blinded you to the 90% of good religious people trying to make a better life for those around them.

Sorry Bro, but your views of history have all been distorted by white-guilt revisionism.

Time to tear down another American monument?

I don't know about all that. You tend to swing out there a little far.

But yes. We live in a secular world with secular laws. Burning at the stake is against the law. And so is burning witches.

In fact, Christianity has flourished under secularism. Look at Europe, with their state religion, atheism is growing by leaps and bounds.

So you're not happy to be living in a secular world? Why not? You are free to believe whatever you want. That's cool, right?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

These are real crimes. Bad crimes. Obviously if Clinton did something worse she can be prosecuted for that and you can be sure the Republicans will come gunning for her first chance they get. Since Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse, well, have at it.

Haven't you heard that Grand Juries could indict a ham sandwich.

Manafort may be a slimy lobbyist, but Muller was tasked with the election.

The more facts I learn, the more I am convinced that the FBI is entirely a political hit squad.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Haven't you heard that Grand Juries could indict a ham sandwich.

Manafort may be a slimy lobbyist, but Muller was tasked with the election.

The more facts I learn, the more I am convinced that the FBI is entirely a political hit squad.

Yes, indicted does not equal convicted. This is a long process. Potential witnesses need to see you are serious about sending people to prison. Once one or two of them gets convicted minor players will find it easier to roll over.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know about all that. You tend to swing out there a little far.

But yes. We live in a secular world with secular laws. Burning at the stake is against the law. And so is burning witches.

Huh? I swing out there? You talking bout them Astros again? Hard to have a conversation with you Bro, since you never limit yourself to time, or space, or even reality, it seems.

But, back to your comment, we had a local Wiccan Convention over the weekend, and noone was burned, in fact, apparently it was a jolly good time since I read that it rained all day.

Yay for secular laws!

[ZNPaaneah]

"Climate change is already taking a major toll on public health and threatening to reverse progress made over the past century in combatting infectious diseases, according to one of the world’s oldest and most respected medical journals."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Haven't you heard that Grand Juries could indict a ham sandwich.

A guilty plea by one of these independently wealthy associates of Trump, a person who can afford good legal representation, indicates they had him dead to rights. You can compare these guys to a ham sandwich if you want, but you don't get an admission of guilt without very solid evidence.

Also, why cut a deal with him unless he was able to deliver bigger fish?

Like Trump said, he is draining the swamp, and just as Paul said "judgement begins in the house of God" or in this case in Trump's house.

It's like Sheldon's dad says, "you can only fish so long before its time to throw dynamite into the lake".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

A guilty plea by one of these independently wealthy associates of Trump, a person who can afford good legal representation, indicates they had him dead to rights. You can compare these guys to a ham sandwich if you want, but you don't get an admission of guilt without very solid evidence.

Grand juries provide for no defense to be present. The evidence threshold is very low.

Many admit to guilt because they have no means to defend themselves against the unlimited assets of the US Gov't.

Manafort was charged with crimes while lobbying during the Bush and Obama administrations, not while working with Trump's campaign.

Where is the Russian collusion with Trump during the election? This has been going on for almost a year!

Where are the indictments for Uranium One, emails, Clinton Foundation, etc.

This has nothing to do with "judgment begins in the house of Trump."

This has everything to do with a corrupt FBI, with political operatives like Muller, Comey, and Rosenstein running it.

My brother went to high school with the former deputy director of the FBI, an honorable and talented public servant.

I would like to know why he really retired early.

Throw the stick of dymanite into the swamp instead of the lake.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Grand juries provide for no defense to be present. The evidence threshold is very low.

One of Trump's associates has already plead guilty and is cooperating with Mueller.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many admit to guilt because they have no means to defend themselves against the unlimited assets of the US Gov't.

Now I know you aren't talking about these guys. They made millions in a single year.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Manafort was charged with crimes while lobbying during the Bush and Obama administrations, not while working with Trump's campaign.

Where is the Russian collusion with Trump during the election? This has been going on for almost a year!

Where are the indictments for Uranium One, emails, Clinton Foundation, etc.

Patience. All in good time. First you have to gather all the evidence. Then you have to pick off the low hanging fruit (like this guy who has plead guilty). Then you have to get them to cooperate to help you get more incriminating evidence (which is what they did). Then you can indict some bigger fish (what he is doing now). Finally, we'll see how high this goes. In these cases if everyone is willing to fall on their sword it is very hard to convict the head honcho.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This has nothing to do with "judgment begins in the house of Trump."

You are aware that one of his associates during the campaign has plead guilty to activity during the campaign.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This has everything to do with a corrupt FBI, with political operatives like Muller, Comey, and Rosenstein running it.

My brother went to high school with the former deputy director of the FBI, an honorable and talented public servant.

I would like to know why he really retired early.

Throw the stick of dymanite into the swamp instead of the lake.

Great questions. Hopefully they will all be answered before we appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

This is really entertaining, now I understand the appeal of these reality TV shows.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One of Trump's associates has already plead guilty and is cooperating with Mueller.

Patience. All in good time. First you have to gather all the evidence. Then you have to pick off the low hanging fruit (like this guy who has plead guilty). Then you have to get them to cooperate to help you get more incriminating evidence (which is what they did). Then you can indict some bigger fish (what he is doing now). Finally, we'll see how high this goes. In these cases if everyone is willing to fall on their sword it is very hard to convict the head honcho.

You are aware that one of his associates during the campaign has plead guilty to activity during the campaign.

Listen to what the liberal Harvard Professor Dershowitz had to say about Muller...

On Tuesday’s broadcast of the Fox News Channel’s “America’s Newsroom,” Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz stated Special Counsel Robert Mueller is “very zealous.” He later added that Mueller won’t be content until he gets to President Trump or those “very close” to him and this is the danger of special prosecutors.

Dershowitz then recalled his experience with Mueller. He stated that he talked to Mueller about prosecutorial and FBI misconduct and Mueller stated “It’s a non-starter to talk to me about FBI misconduct or prosecutorial misconduct. It’s a non-starter. He doesn’t want to hear about that. He is in the business of protecting the FBI, protecting prosecutors, at all costs. I don’t suggest he’s unethical, but he’s very zealous.”

He added that this makes Mueller “effective at his job, but the job of a prosecutor is to do justice, not to get as many notches on his belt as possible.” Dershowitz further stated Mueller is “not going to be satisfied until he gets to the president, or people very close to him. That’s the danger of a special prosecutor.”

Dershowitz also stated the tactic of finding someone to prosecute in order to get them to talk is “dangerous” because people will “compose” and make things up to get a better deal.

He continued, “Look, if an ordinary person walked over to somebody and said, ‘Unless you give up your rights, I’m going to have you criminally prosecuted,’ we’d call that extortion. But it’s allowed by prosecutors. And I’ve been railing against this for 53 years. now, Republicans agree with me. … Which side are you on has become so important.”

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Listen to what the liberal Harvard Professor Dershowitz had to say about Muller...

Mueller is not the only lawyer. The Republicans should get their version and go after Clinton full speed before they get voted out of office in a year. Let's go Republicans!

[ZNPaaneah]

You can find evidence of a changing climate everywhere on Earth. But nowhere are the changes more dramatic than in the Arctic. Our world’s northern polar region is warming twice as fast as the global average. And the consequences are easy to spot. On average, Arctic sea ice extent is shrinking every summer. The Greenland ice sheet is becoming unstable. But perhaps most disturbing are the changes occurring underground in the permafrost. Permafrost is a layer of frozen soil that covers 25 percent of the Northern Hemisphere. It acts like a giant freezer, keeping microbes, carbon, and soil locked in place. Now it’s melting.

Last year anthrax from a dead animal that thawed out in the permafrost killed 72 people. They estimate diseases that are as much as 1 million years old will thaw out as the permafrost melts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You can find evidence of a changing climate everywhere on Earth. But nowhere are the changes more dramatic than in the Arctic. Our world’s northern polar region is warming twice as fast as the global average. And the consequences are easy to spot. On average, Arctic sea ice extent is shrinking every summer. The Greenland ice sheet is becoming unstable. But perhaps most disturbing are the changes occurring underground in the permafrost. Permafrost is a layer of frozen soil that covers 25 percent of the Northern Hemisphere. It acts like a giant freezer, keeping microbes, carbon, and soil locked in place. Now it’s melting.

And let's all hope for a mild winter!

[zeek]

“Man’s capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man’s inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.” Reinhold Niebuhr

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And let's all hope for a mild winter!

Scientists are predicting the coastline of the US to be hammered by storms (as we have seen). The west coast to be hammered by forest fires (as we have seen). And for us in the North East and Ohio we get a swarm of diseases as mosquitos move north from the south and microbes thaw out from the north and move south (like Zika, Dengue, West Nile, Anthrax, etc)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Scientists are predicting the coastline of the US to be hammered by storms (as we have seen). The west coast to be hammered by forest fires (as we have seen). And for us in the North East and Ohio we get a swarm of diseases as mosquitos move north from the south and microbes thaw out from the north and move south (like Zika, Dengue, West Nile, Anthrax, etc)

These same scientists said 2005 (Katrina, Rita) would start a new age in Gulf hurricanes. Never happened. Then in 2017 we had an outbreak.

But you are right, creation is groaning. Not just storms, fires, and bugs, but tornadoes, earthquakes, and volcanoes -- all supernatural events to warn mankind that the age is coming to an end soon.

Then we got wars, rumors of wars, terrorists in NYC, and nuclear threats.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These same scientists said 2005 (Katrina, Rita) would start a new age in Gulf hurricanes. Never happened. Then in 2017 we had an outbreak.

But you are right, creation is groaning. Not just storms, fires, and bugs, but tornadoes, earthquakes, and volcanoes -- all supernatural events to warn mankind that the age is coming to an end soon.

Then we got wars, rumors of wars, terrorists in NYC, and nuclear threats.

Terrorists are not just in NYC. We still don't know what Las Vegas was, but there were certainly terrorists in Boston.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Terrorists are not just in NYC. We still don't know what Las Vegas was, but there were certainly terrorists in Boston.

Why is it, once the FBI takes over an investigation, that all sorts of suspicious things happen?

I have seen the video clip of that Mandalay hallway outside the shooter's room at least a dozen times. We were told that 200 rounds were shot into the hallway, one of which hit Campo in the leg. Why is it that there is not a single hole in the floor or the walls? Why was Campo prevented from talking? Many more unanswered questions. Kind of like the World Trade Towers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why is it, once the FBI takes over an investigation, that all sorts of suspicious things happen?

I have seen the video clip of that Mandalay hallway outside the shooter's room at least a dozen times. We were told that 200 rounds were shot into the hallway, one of which hit Campo in the leg. Why is it that there is not a single hole in the floor or the walls? Why was Campo prevented from talking? Many more unanswered questions. Kind of like the World Trade Towers.

I agree that Las Vegas is every bit as bizarre as 9/11 or JFK assassination. It defies everything we think we know.

[zeek]

you guys are cozy bear tools

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

you guys are cozy bear tools

Is that such a bad thing?

Hypothetically, suppose these ads played a crucial, key role in this and other elections. Does anyone really believe that multinational corporations aren't also buying ads to influence people in this and other elections? Is it OK to have Apple and Verizon and Budweiser decide who is going to be president but the voice of other people on this planet doesn't count?

I have payed attention to the news on this issue and the avenues that the Russians used were not things that I pay attention to. I avoid Facebook like the plague. Ditto with Twitter. I have realized a long time ago that there are many idiots on the internet pushing idiotic ideas clearly with an agenda and it is pointless to engage in any way with them.

I saw one ad on the news recently, they were pretending to be Hillary supporters and telling the followers to avoid the lines at the poll and just text their vote to the number on the screen. Now do we really want people stupid enough to fall for that to vote? Maybe its a good thing to weed out these idiotic voters? What does it say about Hillary supporters that ads like that could cause her to lose votes?!

Do you realize we are making a dent in our trade deficit with all of this money going to Facebook and other US corporations. Is it really so bad to support US businesses and US jobs? Why do you want Americans to not work?

Now, all of a sudden, taking money from Russia and giving it to America is unAmerican? Instead why don't we point out to China and India and Europe that they need to get into the game and protect their interests. These presidential elections could go from $1 billion in ads to $5 or $10 billion. Then all we need to do to balance the budget is have more elections, lots more.

On a more serious note the Russian ads just highlight how corrupt the system is allowing large multinational corporations to pump as much money into elections as they want anonymously. I am all for eliminating the corruption, but find it very hypocritical all this political posturing going on when they all knew what was going on and were taking the money for their own campaigns.

[Ohio]

Taking out adds of fake news is nothing compared to the treason of selling our Uranium reserves to Russia to enrich your foundation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Taking out adds of fake news is nothing compared to the treason of selling our Uranium reserves to Russia to enrich your foundation.

Can you imagine being Jared Kushner? All the enemies that Trump has aiming at you? You have been made the "Secretary of Everything" even though you have no experience. This means any dirt they find will stick to you. He reminds me of the goat tied to the stake in Jurassic Park waiting for some dinosaur to come and eat him.

[ZNPaaneah]

Global Hot Air: Here's a United Nations climate report that environmentalists probably don't want anybody to read. It says that even if every country abides by the grand promises they made last year in Paris to reduce greenhouse gases, the planet would still be "doomed." When President Obama hitched America to the Paris accords in 2016, he declared that it was "the moment that we finally decided to save our planet." And when Trump pulled out of the deal this year, he was berated by legions of environmentalists for killing it. But it turns out that the Paris accord was little more than a sham that will do nothing to "save the planet."

No surprise. There is only one thing that will restore the Earth's atmosphere -- the millennial kingdom -- the restoration of all things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Can you imagine being Jared Kushner? All the enemies that Trump has aiming at you? You have been made the "Secretary of Everything" even though you have no experience. This means any dirt they find will stick to you. He reminds me of the goat tied to the stake in Jurassic Park waiting for some dinosaur to come and eat him.

From the beginning I thought that Trump just wanted to be close to his grandchildren, so he was stuck with real estate son-in-law.

Chris Christie (or better yet Rudy Guiliani) would have been way more aggressive than Sessions, but since he put Kushner's dad in prison, Trump had to dump him.

[zeek]

The POTUS does not respect our nation’s justice system. This week, speaking to reporters, Trump described the U.S. justice system as “a joke” and “a laughingstock.”

This isn’t the first time President Trump has besmirched the judiciary: he has targeted federal judges for personal attacks, including calling U.S. District Judge James Robart a “so-called judge” when he blocked his illegal travel ban. And on the campaign trail, he attacked U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel, who presided over the Trump University fraud case, specifically citing his Mexican heritage as a “conflict of interest.”

Over and over we see how our low life president lacks even a basic respect for the U.S. Constitution, the rule of law and separation of powers. When he tries to bully judges or disparages our justice system, he undermines a fundamental institution of our democracy.

[ZNPaaneah]

Well it is in the 70s here in NYC in November, down from the 80s in October and 90s in September.

But we do have some good news, it turns out that Mosquitos have the solution to climate change.

They carry diseases that will wipe out the source of the problem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The POTUS does not respect our nation’s justice system. This week, speaking to reporters, Trump described the U.S. justice system as “a joke” and “a laughingstock.”

This isn’t the first time President Trump has besmirched the judiciary: he has targeted federal judges for personal attacks, including calling U.S. District Judge James Robart a “so-called judge” when he blocked his illegal travel ban. And on the campaign trail, he attacked U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel, who presided over the Trump University fraud case, specifically citing his Mexican heritage as a “conflict of interest.”

Over and over we see how our low life president lacks even a basic respect for the U.S. Constitution, the rule of law and separation of powers. When he tries to bully judges or disparages our justice system, he undermines a fundamental institution of our democracy.

Never heard a peep out of you when the Clintons, Obama, Muller, Comey, Holder, and Comey gave our scarce Uranium assets to Putin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well it is in the 70s here in NYC in November, down from the 80s in October and 90s in September.

But we do have some good news, it turns out that Mosquitos have the solution to climate change.

They carry diseases that will wipe out the source of the problem.

How did we ever escape the ICE AGE that was supposed to engulf us in the 70's?

And the Al Gore hole in the ozone that would get us all in the 90's?

And the Y2K meltdown that would end us all?

[Ohio]

Bitter Hillary Supporters Blast Donna Brazile, Elizabeth Warren on Twitter over Rigged Primary Revelation

How dare they lie about your darling Hillary?

[Ohio]

The UN Admits That The Paris Climate Deal Was A Fraud

Finally a little truthfulness out of that great bastion of good.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The UN Admits That The Paris Climate Deal Was A Fraud

Finally a little truthfulness out of that great bastion of good.

"even if every country abides by the grand promises they made last year in Paris to reduce greenhouse gases, the planet would still be "doomed.""

Well ain't that a fine how do you do? So screw it. Let's go out with a bang. More coal, fossil fuels ... stop this solar panels and windmills foolishness. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

"We don't have to protect the environment the Second Coming is at hand." ~ James Watt, Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

"even if every country abides by the grand promises they made last year in Paris to reduce greenhouse gases, the planet would still be "doomed.""

Well ain't that a fine how do you do? So screw it. Let's go out with a bang. More coal, fossil fuels ... stop this solar panels and windmills foolishness. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

"We don't have to protect the environment the Second Coming is at hand." ~ James Watt, Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan

The problem is unsustainable civilization of 7 billion people. Cutting back on the pollution doesn't solve the problem anymore than an obese person with diabetes skipping desert.

I think I just heard all of creation groan.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The problem is unsustainable civilization of 7 billion people. Cutting back on the pollution doesn't solve the problem anymore than an obese person with diabetes skipping desert.

I think I just heard all of creation groan.

If I hint not said it already, it's the heat of the loins that's causing global warming.

Yeah, okay, back when it was just Adam and Eve "be fruitful and multiply" was badly needed ... it made all the sense in the world.

But I think if we had ears to hear today, God is likely screaming, "Stop it! No more fruitfulness and multiplying. Enough is enough already. Don't make me have ta come down there and fix it."

But prolly doesn't matter if we could hear Him loud and clear ; any more than it would work if He told the Bonobo's to stop it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

"even if every country abides by the grand promises they made last year in Paris to reduce greenhouse gases, the planet would still be "doomed.""

That's because only the US made any promises.

Doesn't matter how clean we are, when the rest of the world won't use coal scrubbers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well it is in the 70s here in NYC in November, down from the 80s in October and 90s in September.
.

I'm looking out my window, and we have finally reached peak autumn tree colors.

That usually occurs the second week of October.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

If I hint not said it already, it's the heat of the loins that's causing global warming.

Yeah, okay, back when it was just Adam and Eve "be fruitful and multiply" was badly needed ... it made all the sense in the world.

But I think if we had ears to hear today, God is likely screaming, "Stop it! No more fruitfulness and multiplying. Enough is enough already. Don't make me have ta come down there and fix it."

But prolly doesn't matter if we could hear Him loud and clear ; any more than it would work if He told the Bonobo's to stop it.

No doubt, if you reduce human population by 99% then even if we are an ecological disaster it will still be a small disaster that the Earth may be able to compensate for. But you haven't solved anything.

We are the only creature on this planet that does not live sustainably. That has to change.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm looking out my window, and we have finally reached peak autumn tree colors.

That usually occurs the second week of October.

The change is apparent to us, but from what I have heard if you live in Alaska it is far more obvious.

Also, the Gulf of Mexico is 87 degrees in July and August. Can you believe that? How do the fish survive?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Never heard a peep out of you when the Clintons, Obama, Muller, Comey, Holder, and Comey gave our scarce Uranium assets to Putin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

So you post something by RT, the official Russia publication? So you cut the middleman out and go straight to Russia. Way to go bro Ohio ... go directly to fake news sources, or Russian propaganda.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you post something by RT, the official Russia publication? So you cut the middleman out and go straight to Russia. Way to go bro Ohio ... go directly to fake news sources, or Russian propaganda.

RT caught Obama colluding with Putin. No propaganda here, just the facts.

Obama: "This is my last election, and after my election I will have more flexibility."

Russian: "I understand, I transmit this information to Vladimir, I understand." As Obama puts his hands on his arm to reassure the translator.

Now, bro awareness, do you really think Barry O. was talking about his Pilates Workouts?

Seems to me that when it comes to "fair and balanced," RT here is way ahead of Main Stream Media, which is all fake news propaganda and no facts.

We have heard about the Russia collusion for a year, yet no evidence against Trump!

They went back almost a decade to bust Manafort the Lobbyist. Every lobbyist could be indicted by a Grand Jury.

Doesn't that bother you? Every day the evidence against the Clintons, Obama, Muller, Comey, Holder, and Comey is mounting. So corrupt! Lock em up!

[awareness]

Trump administration releases report finding ‘no convincing alternative explanation’ for climate change

"The Trump administration released a dire scientific report Friday calling human activity the dominant driver of global warming, a conclusion at odds with White House decisions to withdraw from a key international climate accord, champion fossil fuels and reverse Obama-era climate policies."

[zeek]

"Trump Frustrated by Existence of Three Branches of Government"

Nobody knew how complicated it was 'til Trump.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump administration releases report finding ‘no convincing alternative explanation’ for climate change

"The Trump administration released a dire scientific report Friday calling human activity the dominant driver of global warming, a conclusion at odds with White House decisions to withdraw from a key international climate accord, champion fossil fuels and reverse Obama-era climate policies."

What is the big deal? Everyone knew the game plan for the last 40 years. Deny, obfuscate and delay until it is so obvious that you sound ridiculous. Then at that point the argument is "it is too late to do anything about it".

[awareness]

Paradise Paper's' massive 13.4million documents leak show Wilbur Ross concealed his close ties to Vladimir Putin's 'cronies' while Russia funded Facebook and Twitter investments through Jared Kushner associate.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...associate.html

[zeek]

The thoughts and prayers of our so called leaders in Washington ain't worth ****.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The thoughts and prayers of our so called leaders in Washington ain't worth ****.

I am involved in the parking lot service where I meet, it has taken on a whole new burden in the wake of several attacks on churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am involved in the parking lot service where I meet, it has taken on a whole new burden in the wake of several attacks on churches.

An angry atheist with a automatic rifle is not a good combo.

Apparently the military doesn't inform appropriate law agencies when their soldiers go bad.

Gun control people ought to start there. This guy was crazy, had a violent temper, and hated Christians. So much for background checks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The thoughts and prayers of our so called leaders in Washington ain't worth ****.

Never heard you say that about Obama. Oh yeah, he was Muslam.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Trump Frustrated by Existence of Three Branches of Government"

Nobody knew how complicated it was 'til Trump.

With guys like Muller, Comey, McCabe, and Holder, half the country is frustrated.

[zeek]

"Nation To Wait For More Facts On Texas Shooting Before Doing Absolutely Nothing About It"

https://www.theonion.com/nation-to-w...ore-1820186609

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Nation To Wait For More Facts On Texas Shooting Before Doing Absolutely Nothing About It"

https://www.theonion.com/nation-to-w...ore-1820186609

Any suggestions on what the nation should do about it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Nation To Wait For More Facts On Texas Shooting Before Doing Absolutely Nothing About It"

https://www.theonion.com/nation-to-w...ore-1820186609

When disaster strikes, liberals have only one thing on their minds -- more laws.

Until they remove the 2nd Amend, the "Nation is Doing Absolutely Nothing."

[Evangelical]

There is an interesting table here:

http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/31/a...han-terrorists

Armed toddlers kill more Americans than terrorists.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When disaster strikes, liberals have only one thing on their minds -- more laws.

Until they remove the 2nd Amend, the "Nation is Doing Absolutely Nothing."

I just don't think that these sorts of mass killings were what they had in mind with the 2nd amendment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I just don't think that these sorts of mass killings were what they had in mind with the 2nd amendment.

Yes they did. But not by angry atheists, rather by angry Redcoats.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes they did. But not by angry atheists, rather by angry Redcoats.

They used muskets back then. A mass shooter wasn't possible. The shooter might kill one, but by the time he reloads everyone would be gone. So the framers of the 2nd amendment couldn't ever have even imagine these sorts of mass kills.

[awareness]

For bro Ohio's joy and pleasure I've decide to present a collage of right wing conspiracy theories concerning the church shooter. This proves that right wingnuts just can wait to sling crazy accusations against evil liberals, and their evil ilk. So bro Ohio, much to your delight I present :

The shooter was a liberal, communist, Bernie Sanders supporting antifa atheist, working with the Islamic State, who was targeting far right conservative church goers. The shooter “vowed to start a civil war by ‘targeting white conservative churches’ and causing anarchy in the United States."

The shooter threw an antifa flag over the pulpit and then killed people who failed to properly recite verses from Karl Marx’s three-volume foundational critique of capitalism, Das Kapital.

And there are many more, all blaming liberals, to bro Ohio's joy and delight.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

They used muskets back then. A mass shooter wasn't possible. The shooter might kill one, but by the time he reloads everyone would be gone. So the framers of the 2nd amendment couldn't ever have even imagine these sorts of mass kills.

What about the massacre of Glencoe, certainly they could envision that -- 78 were killed. I think that is the backdrop of having a right to bear arms, protect yourself against massacres.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

accusations against evil liberals, and their evil ilk.

Wow, you have changed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

They used muskets back then. A mass shooter wasn't possible. The shooter might kill one, but by the time he reloads everyone would be gone. So the framers of the 2nd amendment couldn't ever have even imagine these sorts of mass kills.

Sure they did.

I'm sure they were aware of what happened when cannons were filled with buckshot.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure they did.

I'm sure they were aware of what happened when cannons were filled with buckshot.

So the 2nd amendment allows citizens to own cannons? How about tanks and surface to air missiles, and even nuke weapons? Is that why the framers wrote the 2nd amendment?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So the 2nd amendment allows citizens to own cannons? How about tanks and surface to air missiles, and even nuke weapons? Is that why the framers wrote the 2nd amendment?

First you "just don't think that these sorts of mass killings were what they had in mind with the 2nd amendment."

And I (and ZNP) respond about mass killings that they were familiar with.

And you now ask if citizens can own military weapons.

This reminds me of Anne Coulter's book ...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First you "just don't think that these sorts of mass killings were what they had in mind with the 2nd amendment."

And I (and ZNP) respond about mass killings that they were familiar with.

And you now ask if citizens can own military weapons.

This reminds me of Anne Coulter's book ...

Good one bro Ohio, as usual. And funny too. Just Ann Coulter is a hoot in and of herself. (Some gossip : I'm pretty sure her and Bill Maher got frisky together some years ago. The spark was obvious. There's even rumors that they got married. Either way, her and he have a time together on his show. Where she must be using all the principles in her book.)

But back to my question. (Am I off topic - what is the topic?)

I'm just asking how far does the 2nd amendment go? They had muskets back then, and well okay, cannons. The 2nd amendment only says : "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Well obviously they could only think in terms of arms they had back then. Still, "Arms" can mean anything, and everything. But not surface to air missiles.

Okay, it's obvious with all these mass shootings that, we have a problem ; a problem as large as protecting jetliners from being shot down. Of course we can't allow that. That's why it's illegal to own surface to air missiles.

So given these slaughters by assault rifles, lets make them, and Bump Stocks, illegal.

At least -- DO SOMETHING!!! -- besides offering just "thoughts and prayers." They haven't worked so far, but are comforting, I suppose (I'm not sure about that). Isn't that, in the end, just being comfortably numb? ; numb to commonsense about what the 2nd amendment framers meant by "Arms." And numb to the loss of innocent lives. Turns out, thoughts and prayers is just a euphemism for "We don't care."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good one bro Ohio, as usual. And funny too. Just Ann Coulter is a hoot in and of herself. (Some gossip : I'm pretty sure her and Bill Maher got frisky together some years ago. The spark was obvious. There's even rumors that they got married. Either way, her and he have a time together on his show. Where she must be using all the principles in her book.)

But back to my question. (Am I off topic - what is the topic?)

I'm just asking how far does the 2nd amendment go? They had muskets back then, and well okay, cannons. The 2nd amendment only says : "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Well obviously they could only think in terms of arms they had back then. Still, "Arms" can mean anything, and everything. But not surface to air missiles.

Okay, it's obvious with all these mass shootings that, we have a problem ; a problem as large as protecting jetliners from being shot down. Of course we can't allow that. That's why it's illegal to own surface to air missiles.

So given these slaughters by assault rifles, lets make them, and Bump Stocks, illegal.

At least -- DO SOMETHING!!! -- besides offering just "thoughts and prayers." They haven't worked so far, but are comforting, I suppose (I'm not sure about that). Isn't that, in the end, just being comfortably numb? ; numb to commonsense about what the 2nd amendment framers meant by "Arms." And numb to the loss of innocent lives. Turns out, thoughts and prayers is just a euphemism for "We don't care."

There is a very simple solution to this issue. You can keep the 2nd amendment without the slightest problem while completely eliminating the threats we have seen in Las Vegas and Texas.

Even today in the most permissive states a building has the right to refuse you to bring guns into the building. They can set up various scanners and refuse to allow people to enter their personal property with a gun. This can include very big buildings, skyscrapers. Simply make the buildings bigger -- you have an entire city inside a single building, no guns, and all perfectly legal with the US constitution.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm just asking how far does the 2nd amendment go? They had muskets back then, and well okay, cannons. The 2nd amendment only says : "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Well obviously they could only think in terms of arms they had back then. Still, "Arms" can mean anything, and everything. But not surface to air missiles.

Okay, it's obvious with all these mass shootings that, we have a problem ; a problem as large as protecting jetliners from being shot down. Of course we can't allow that. That's why it's illegal to own surface to air missiles.

So given these slaughters by assault rifles, lets make them, and Bump Stocks, illegal.

At least -- DO SOMETHING!!! -- besides offering just "thoughts and prayers." They haven't worked so far, but are comforting, I suppose (I'm not sure about that). Isn't that, in the end, just being comfortably numb? ; numb to commonsense about what the 2nd amendment framers meant by "Arms." And numb to the loss of innocent lives. Turns out, thoughts and prayers is just a euphemism for "We don't care."

Do something? Who is numb to the loss of innocent lives? The most callous IMO are often the liberals. They whine and complain and cry for new laws, but when do they even offer kind thoughts and prayers, and perhaps some lovingkindness to the victims? Hypocrisy?

Obama spent 8 years in DC, yet never did one thing for all the dead victims of gunshots in his hometown of Chicago. Obama was incredibly silent when it came to black on black crime. But when a white or hispanic police officer was involved, he was all over it. True "community organizer" who did nothing for communities. Yet he had Black Lives Matter leaders at the White House regularly. Sounds racist to me.

The 2nd Amend says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To bear arms is to become a soldier, with the weapons of a soldier. If all the soldiers had were muskets, then "bear arms" would be to carry a musket. The 2nd Amend. liberty was to protect the citizenry from an evil Government, whether it be the British in those days, or the US Govt today. Did I mention that almost 200 Million died in the 20th century at the hands of their own Govt? The Constitutional Framers apparently felt that the biggest danger on earth was evil Govts. Statistics prove they were right.

Yer a smart guy. Why didn't you think of this?

And no, I never read Coulter's books.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is a very simple solution to this issue. You can keep the 2nd amendment without the slightest problem while completely eliminating the threats we have seen in Las Vegas and Texas.

Even today in the most permissive states a building has the right to refuse you to bring guns into the building. They can set up various scanners and refuse to allow people to enter their personal property with a gun. This can include very big buildings, skyscrapers. Simply make the buildings bigger -- you have an entire city inside a single building, no guns, and all perfectly legal with the US constitution.

Sounds like "one building -- one church." New dogma?

I have a simple solution. Why don't we prosecute as accomplices those responsible in the Army for not informing federal officials responsible for background checks?

We now got "Sanctuary States" where illegal alien criminals are free to kill people. The same people want no border walls in California. All the gun laws in the world will not make people safe there.

You'se guys are smarter than me. Don't you see the idiocy here?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like "one building -- one church." New dogma?

I have a simple solution. Why don't we prosecute as accomplices those responsible in the Army for not informing federal officials responsible for background checks?

We now got "Sanctuary States" where illegal alien criminals are free to kill people. The same people want no border walls in California. All the gun laws in the world will not make people safe there.

You'se guys are smarter than me. Don't you see the idiocy here?

Prosecution of existing laws will certainly be an improvement.

One major drawback to those prosecutions is the NRA prohibiting the FBI from digitizing the gun ownership records. As a result the ATF has hundreds of millions of paper records they have to sift through to determine the owner of a gun involved in a crime. If it were digitized they could solve and close a tremendous amount of gun crimes. But if they did that criminals would realize that guns are a very poor way to commit a crime and gun dealers would loose their best customers.

As for the "new dogma" nothing new. Why can airports screen for guns? Why can federal buildings screen for guns? The Pentagon is one of the largest buildings in the world, it is a city inside a single building. They have the right to decide who can and cannot bring guns into their building. The constitution simply gives you the right to bear arms in your house, not someone else's.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do something? Who is numb to the loss of innocent lives? The most callous IMO are often the liberals. They whine and complain and cry for new laws, but when do they even offer kind thoughts and prayers, and perhaps some lovingkindness to the victims? Hypocrisy?

Obama spent 8 years in DC, yet never did one thing for all the dead victims of gunshots in his hometown of Chicago. Obama was incredibly silent when it came to black on black crime. But when a white or hispanic police officer was involved, he was all over it. True "community organizer" who did nothing for communities. Yet he had Black Lives Matter leaders at the White House regularly. Sounds racist to me.

The 2nd Amend says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To bear arms is to become a soldier, with the weapons of a soldier. If all the soldiers had were muskets, then "bear arms" would be to carry a musket. The 2nd Amend. liberty was to protect the citizenry from an evil Government, whether it be the British in those days, or the US Govt today. Did I mention that almost 200 Million died in the 20th century at the hands of their own Govt? The Constitutional Framers apparently felt that the biggest danger on earth was evil Govts. Statistics prove they were right.

Yer a smart guy. Why didn't you think of this?

And no, I never read Coulter's books.

But reading that book could maybe help you communicate with liberals, and maybe help them, and make them see the errors of their ways.

I see you had to take a shot at Obama. Well at least you didn't blame The Obama-Clinton Machine and their liberal media lapdogs, like Moore in 'bama. (Mary was a just a teenager, when she got with the much older Joseph ... when she was already pregnant) .... haha ... good one Roy.

And it doesn't matter how smart you are, you'll never think of it first. Only Trump does that. He's always the first to think of everything, he thinks ; even the phrase "prime the pump." He said he invented it ... very funny ... and fake news too ... also very funny. It's kinda nice to have a clown leading our country. At least it's entertaining.

Now back to being numb about gun killings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Prosecution of existing laws will certainly be an improvement.

One major drawback to those prosecutions is the NRA prohibiting the FBI from digitizing the gun ownership records.

With the current Muller investigation in view, I don't see how the NRA can stop the FBI from doing anything they wish to do.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

With the current Muller investigation in view, I don't see how the NRA can stop the FBI from doing anything they wish to do.

The argument is that putting these documents on the computer is the first step towards a registry, which would be the first step towards seizure.

[zeek]

How low can they go? How about using Joseph and Mary to justify sexually molesting a 14 year old girl? Not a problem for defender of "10 commandments" judge Roy Moore.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/al...rticle/2640217

Ed Stetzer, who is the Billy Graham chair of church, mission and evangelism at Wheaton College, called the comparison to Mary and Joseph "simultaneously ridiculous and blasphemous."

[ZNPaaneah]

Donald Trump asked Putin, to his face, if he had meddled in our election and according to Trump Putin said "no".

So, don't you feel foolish now?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Donald Trump asked Putin, to his face, if he had meddled in our election and according to Trump Putin said "no".

So, don't you feel foolish now?

Trump said he took Putin at his word that Russia did not seek to interfere in the US presidential election last year, despite a finding from US intelligence agencies that it did.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

How low can they go? How about using Joseph and Mary to justify sexually molesting a 14 year old girl? Not a problem for defender of "10 commandments" judge Roy Moore.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/al...rticle/2640217

Ed Stetzer, who is the Billy Graham chair of church, mission and evangelism at Wheaton College, called the comparison to Mary and Joseph "simultaneously ridiculous and blasphemous."

Who is they?

One guy blows hot air out the wrong end and the world goes crazy.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump said he took Putin at his word that Russia did not seek to interfere in the US presidential election last year, despite a finding from US intelligence agencies that it did.

Exactly. Why didn't the US intelligence agencies just ask Putin. "Mr. Putin did you interfere in our election?"

Putin -- no.

Well, there you have it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who is they?

One guy blows hot air out the wrong end and the world goes crazy.

From what I understand the alleged incident took place 50 years ago, and yet they only are able to report it so close to the election that they couldn't remove his name from the ballot.

Second the reason they believe the girl is because she can prove she was in the courthouse on the day in question and she said the drive to his house was half an hour which is pretty close.

I hope there is no truth to the allegation, but what is very obvious is this is a political attack job of the sleaziest possible kind.

[zeek]

Media: lying
Mueller: lying
Comey: lying
Obama: lying
Clinton: lying
Judges: lying
Sex assault accusers: lying
Scientists re: climate change: lying
Doctors re: ACA: lying
Mother of slain U.S. soldier: lying
Intelligence services: lying
Putin: "He means it. I believe him.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

From what I understand the alleged incident took place 50 years ago, and yet they only are able to report it so close to the election that they couldn't remove his name from the ballot.

Second the reason they believe the girl is because she can prove she was in the courthouse on the day in question and she said the drive to his house was half an hour which is pretty close.

I hope there is no truth to the allegation, but what is very obvious is this is a political attack job of the sleaziest possible kind.

Yet, in this current climate, no one can come to Roy Moore's aid.

One by one, even the Republicans are all calling for his removal.

Hannity tried to remain neutral, waiting for the facts, and he immediately lost advertisers.

Mark Levin did an incredible job of legally dissecting the WaPo news piece the other day without impugning the alleged victims.

• Why now? Why not during any of his state runs, like the Alabama Supreme Court and Governership?
• It cannot be resolved prior to election.
• Moore guilty until proven innocent, which is impossible
• Alabama cannot change the ballots at this point
• Establishment Republicans call for his removal?
• The accusations can never be resolved legally
• WaPo already endorsed his opponent
• Yet with Clinton, WaPo sat on Juanita Brodderick accusations!
• NJ Senator Menendez indicted, on trial, yet media is totally silent!
• These 4 women were just randomly found in Alabama?
• Only one woman actually claims illegality as a 14 year old.
• Remember Clarence Thomas smear job by a Professor?
• Levin mentioned another smear job in CA that put Barbara Boxer in office, a total smear job caused the Republican candidate Bruce Herschensohn to lose. A last-minute revelation that he had attended a strip club (though a total lie) at least partially affected the outcome.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yet, in this current climate, no one can come to Roy Moore's aid.

One by one, even the Republicans are all calling for his removal.

Hannity tried to remain neutral, waiting for the facts, and he immediately lost advertisers.

Mark Levin did an incredible job of legally dissecting the WaPo news piece the other day without impugning the alleged victims.

• Why now? Why not during any of his state runs, like the Alabama Supreme Court and Governership?
• It cannot be resolved prior to election.
• Moore guilty until proven innocent, which is impossible
• Alabama cannot change the ballots at this point
• Establishment Republicans call for his removal?
• The accusations can never be resolved legally
• WaPo already endorsed his opponent
• Yet with Clinton, WaPo sat on Juanita Brodderick accusations!
• NJ Senator Menendez indicted, on trial, yet media is totally silent!
• These 4 women were just randomly found in Alabama?
• Only one woman actually claims illegality as a 14 year old.
• Remember Clarence Thomas smear job by a Professor?
• Levin mentioned another smear job in CA that put Barbara Boxer in office, a total smear job caused the Republican candidate Bruce Herschensohn to lose. A last-minute revelation that he had attended a strip club (though a total lie) at least partially affected the outcome.

Why now I think is obvious. This is too old to go to trial, so there is no possibility for that. Therefore the only value to this allegation is to prevent the republicans from getting this seat. They needed to wait until his name couldn't be taken from the ballot.

[zeek]

I read that Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, has now urged Roy Moore to quit the Alabama Senate race, saying "I believe the women" who accused Moore of sexual misconduct.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I read that Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, has now urged Roy Moore to quit the Alabama Senate race, saying "I believe the women" who accused Moore of sexual misconduct.

Mitch McConnell -- aging swamp creature. (Ask Bro awareness about his integrity.)

Less than one hour after the WaPo article came out, McConnell wanted Moore off the ballot. Evidence points to a Republican hit job like the Russian Dossier.

His fellow KY Senator almost got killed in a vicious left-wing assault akin to the attack on Congressman Scalise, and McConnell is silent.

McConnell would rather see the Democrats win than real conservatives, Tea Party Freedom Caucus, or Trump supporters in the Republican Party win.

Gee Dubya really upset me couple weeks ago, and I lost about all respect for him. He said nothing for 8 years while Barry made us into an Islamic Socialist State, yet he now condemns Trump for nationalism and nativism. Unbelievable!

He's just like his old man. Will we also hear stories about him groping the pretty nurses?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mitch McConnell -- aging swamp creature. (Ask Bro awareness about his integrity.)

Less than one hour after the WaPo article came out, McConnell wanted Moore off the ballot. Evidence points to a Republican hit job like the Russian Dossier.

His fellow KY Senator almost got killed in a vicious left-wing assault akin to the attack on Congressman Scalise, and McConnell is silent.

McConnell would rather see the Democrats win than real conservatives, Tea Party Freedom Caucus, or Trump supporters in the Republican Party win.

Gee Dubya really upset me couple weeks ago, and I lost about all respect for him. He said nothing for 8 years while Barry made us into an Islamic Socialist State, yet he now condemns Trump for nationalism and nativism. Unbelievable!

He's just like his old man. Will we also hear stories about him groping the pretty nurses?

I think what we can all agree this is a very ugly story. First, it seems undeniable to me that this is a political attack job.

Second what also seems to have been confirmed is that as a 30 year old man he liked to date teenagers. It may not have been illegal, but it does come across to me as piggish.

So then we are left with what we don't know --

Since it is a political hack job I would not be surprised if lawyers counseled the woman on what to say -- so the fact she knew his house was 30 minutes away or that she was in fact at the courthouse on the day in question does not lend to her credibility in my opinion. It seems any lawyer doing his homework would have prepped her for that. You also wonder where the mother was that her 14 year old daughter goes over to the judge's house without her.

If the story is true it is ugly, but it also makes me wonder why there aren't more 14 year old girls coming forward. Also I get that the girl may have been intimidated to say anything, that explains to me why she didn't say anything for 10 years. But it doesn't explain why she didn't say anything for 40 years, or why when she does come forward it is at the worst possible time politically, but otherwise completely pointless.

If the story is false it is ugly and demonstrates how despicable the election process has become.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mitch McConnell -- aging swamp creature. (Ask Bro awareness about his integrity.)

Less than one hour after the WaPo article came out, McConnell wanted Moore off the ballot. Evidence points to a Republican hit job like the Russian Dossier.

His fellow KY Senator almost got killed in a vicious left-wing assault akin to the attack on Congressman Scalise, and McConnell is silent.

McConnell would rather see the Democrats win than real conservatives, Tea Party Freedom Caucus, or Trump supporters in the Republican Party win.

Gee Dubya really upset me couple weeks ago, and I lost about all respect for him. He said nothing for 8 years while Barry made us into an Islamic Socialist State, yet he now condemns Trump for nationalism and nativism. Unbelievable!

He's just like his old man. Will we also hear stories about him groping the pretty nurses?

Yeah, the magic trick of David cop a feel. But ya know bro Ohio, say what you want about Obama, but he had no scandals like that. And he's a good family man, that are, or once were, pubbies values.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think what we can all agree this is a very ugly story. First, it seems undeniable to me that this is a political attack job.

Second what also seems to have been confirmed is that as a 30 year old man he liked to date teenagers. It may not have been illegal, but it does come across to me as piggish.

So then we are left with what we don't know --

Since it is a political hack job I would not be surprised if lawyers counseled the woman on what to say -- so the fact she knew his house was 30 minutes away or that she was in fact at the courthouse on the day in question does not lend to her credibility in my opinion. It seems any lawyer doing his homework would have prepped her for that. You also wonder where the mother was that her 14 year old daughter goes over to the judge's house without her.

If the story is true it is ugly, but it also makes me wonder why there aren't more 14 year old girls coming forward. Also I get that the girl may have been intimidated to say anything, that explains to me why she didn't say anything for 10 years. But it doesn't explain why she didn't say anything for 40 years, or why when she does come forward it is at the worst possible time politically, but otherwise completely pointless.

If the story is false it is ugly and demonstrates how despicable the election process has become.

Both Clinton and Hollywood predator types prove that this behavior is life long, and these guys don't get married and all of a sudden get "cured."

So, are we to believe that Moore was a 32 y.o. "predator" and then lived an upright, moral life? Even awareness would not buy that story.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, the magic trick of David cop a feel. But ya know bro Ohio, say what you want about Obama, but he had no scandals like that. And he's a good family man, that are, or once were, pubbies values.

Yup, Barry and Michael (err ... I mean Michelle) are great lovers. Right!

...........................................

The only difference between the Repubs and the Dems is that the Publicans call for resignations, while the Dems talk about "job performance."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yup, Barry and Michael (err ... I mean Michelle) are great lovers. Right!

...........................................

The only difference between the Repubs and the Dems is that the Publicans call for resignations, while the Dems talk about "job performance."

I suppose you're gonna say that she's a he, or she came from monkeys???

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Both Clinton and Hollywood predator types prove that this behavior is life long, and these guys don't get married and all of a sudden get "cured."

So, are we to believe that Moore was a 32 y.o. "predator" and then lived an upright, moral life? Even awareness would not buy that story.

Righto bro Ohio. 'bama is made up mostly of devout Christians of some kind or other. So will those Christians support Moore, and give Jesus a bad name? Christians have been crazier.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Righto bro Ohio. 'bama is made up mostly of devout Christians of some kind or other. So will those Christians support Moore, and give Jesus a bad name? Christians have been crazier.

You would rather have them believe WashPost, famous for fake news like the Russian Dossier?

It took months and months to discredit all of WaPo's lies and fake news. Why should they have to wait any more?

For decades, Roy Moore has proved his integrity and character to the people of Alabama.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Both Clinton and Hollywood predator types prove that this behavior is life long, and these guys don't get married and all of a sudden get "cured."

So, are we to believe that Moore was a 32 y.o. "predator" and then lived an upright, moral life? Even awareness would not buy that story.

Well another minor has come forward. I do believe that if he is a predator there are multiple victims and this is now the 2nd minor, 5th teenager, so there is no way I would vote for him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well another minor has come forward. I do believe that if he is a predator there are multiple victims and this is now the 2nd minor, 5th teenager, so there is no way I would vote for him.

Another minor did not come forward. She is a mature adult alleging something 40 years ago. Why didn't at least one of these "victims" come forward decades ago?

Remember this is not Hollywood, with the futures of pretty young actresses dangled in front of them by perverted men of power.

If Moore was a predator, at least one accusation would have been made when it happened. Unless something surfaces from long ago, it sure looks like a smear campaign.

If this can happen to a character such as Roy Moore, then WaPo can do this to every potential candidate out there.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You would rather have them believe WashPost, famous for fake news like the Russian Dossier?

It took months and months to discredit all of WaPo's lies and fake news. Why should they have to wait any more?

For decades, Roy Moore has proved his integrity and character to the people of Alabama.

You've answered my question. You've proven, if you are truly Christian, that Christians will support Moore, or Woody, from Toy Story ... I can't tell them apart.

Besides the accusations -- 5 women now, and the last has lots of corroborating evidence -- Moore is a bonafide nutjob ... who likens himself to Joseph, the father of Jesus, cuz Joseph, an old man, married Mary when she was a young teenager.

It just dawned on me. You prolly support Moore cuz he's Biblical like that. Can't you see that that's a cover, for the real creep that he is?

Does holding to the Bible blind you like that? Surely you're not blinded by the Bible. That wouldn't speak well for the Bible.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You've answered my question. You've proven, if you are truly Christian, that Christians will support Moore, or Woody, from Toy Story ... I can't tell them apart.

Besides the accusations -- 5 women now, and the last has lots of corroborating evidence -- Moore is a bonafide nutjob ... who likens himself to Joseph, the father of Jesus, cuz Joseph, an old man, married Mary when she was a young teenager.

It just dawned on me. You prolly support Moore cuz he's Biblical like that. Can't you see that that's a cover, for the real creep that he is?

Does holding to the Bible blind you like that? Surely you're not blinded by the Bible. That wouldn't speak well for the Bible.

Where did Moore liken himself to Joseph?

I have given dozens of reasons why I have not condemned Moore, but I am not voting in 'Bama.

Please read what I have written, and question that, rather than conjecturing something imaginary.

You have written extensively about your attitude toward Christians. Unfortunately they can do nothing right in your eyes.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another minor did not come forward. She is a mature adult alleging something 40 years ago. Why didn't at least one of these "victims" come forward decades ago?

Remember this is not Hollywood, with the futures of pretty young actresses dangled in front of them by perverted men of power.

If Moore was a predator, at least one accusation would have been made when it happened. Unless something surfaces from long ago, it sure looks like a smear campaign.

If this can happen to a character such as Roy Moore, then WaPo can do this to every potential candidate out there.

None of the stories allege rape. I can fully accept that these two girls were happy that nothing more happened and the idea of having to battle in court with this DA based on nothing more than "he said, she said" was good enough reason for them to not bring it up sooner. This is why once one person comes forward, a second will, and then a third, etc. At this point we have had 5 come forward. None have alleged anything as serious as rape, but I have heard enough to absolutely refuse to vote for him.

[awareness]

I was right bro Ohio, much to your delight, I suppose :

Fifty-three pastors in Alabama have signed a letter throwing their support behind Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, who has been accused of sexually assaulting multiple women.

“For decades, Roy Moore has been an immovable rock in the culture wars ― a bold defender of the ‘little guy,’ a just judge to those who came before his court, a warrior for the unborn child, defender of the sanctity of marriage, and a champion for religious liberty,” the pastors wrote. Their letter was posted to the Facebook page of Kayla Moore, the candidate’s wife, on Sunday and published Monday on Alabama news site AL.com.

[ZNPaaneah]

Greg Legat, who worked at the mall in the 1980s, told Bethea that he remembers Moore was banned from the shopping center starting around 1979. Legat recalled that the mall was often “filled” with unchaperoned teens.

A local police officer, J.D. Thomas, reportedly often asked Legat to keep an eye out for Moore. ”‘If you see Moore here, tell me. I’ll take care of him,’” Legat remembers Thomas telling him, according to The New Yorker.

This has to be resolved, he cannot be elected. If he is it will simply be a carnival and he'll be ejected by the ethics committee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Greg Legat, who worked at the mall in the 1980s, told Bethea that he remembers Moore was banned from the shopping center starting around 1979. Legat recalled that the mall was often “filled” with unchaperoned teens.

A local police officer, J.D. Thomas, reportedly often asked Legat to keep an eye out for Moore. ”‘If you see Moore here, tell me. I’ll take care of him,’” Legat remembers Thomas telling him, according to The New Yorker.

This has to be resolved, he cannot be elected. If he is it will simply be a carnival and he'll be ejected by the ethics committee.

I have not kept up with the news on this, but if he was naughty 40 years ago, and then changed his behavior, should not he be given some slack? Isn't that the American way? Second chances and all that?

Why does America (especially the media) forgive Ted Kennedy, Bill and Hillary, and so many more, yet if one claims to be Christian, he gets no second chance. Forgiveness for heathens, but not for those trying to do better? Forgiveness for the rich and well-connected, but not for Moore?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have not kept up with the news on this, but if he was naughty 40 years ago, and then changed his behavior, should not he be given some slack? Isn't that the American way? Second chances and all that?

Why does America (especially the media) forgive Ted Kennedy, Bill and Hillary, and so many more, yet if one claims to be Christian, he gets no second chance. Forgiveness for heathens, but not for those trying to do better? Forgiveness for the rich and well-connected, but not for Moore?

I have not seen any evidence that he has changed his ways. He threatens girls with being the DA because they feel powerless and helpless to challenge him. He targets the poor, like the 16 year old waitress. There are now many witnesses, girls, teenagers, people working at the mall, policemen, coworkers who all testify that this is the type of person he was. There is no evidence at all he ever "repented", rather instead of confessing he accuses them of lying. Yet when asked if he dated teenagers when he was 30+ his response is "he never dated anyone without their mother's permission"!

From what I can gather he is a despicable pig. This is what elections are about, learn about who the candidates are. No way I would vote for this guy. If he does get elected it would be a sideshow and he would be kicked out by the ethics committee. Too many Republicans have already taken a stand, and that was before half the witnesses came forward. On the news tonight the reporter literally chased the one congressman that has supported him as this guy literally ran away from the cameras.

If he is truly concerned about the Republican party he would step aside. It is too late to remove his name from the ballot, but if he steps aside and is elected they could then hold a runoff among other Republicans to fill the vacant seat, or whatever the process is.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have not seen any evidence that he has changed his ways. He threatens girls with being the DA because they feel powerless and helpless to challenge him. He targets the poor, like the 16 year old waitress. There are now many witnesses, girls, teenagers, people working at the mall, policemen, coworkers who all testify that this is the type of person he was. There is no evidence at all he ever "repented", rather instead of confessing he accuses them of lying. Yet when asked if he dated teenagers when he was 30+ his response is "he never dated anyone without their mother's permission"!

From what I can gather he is a despicable pig. This is what elections are about, learn about who the candidates are. No way I would vote for this guy. If he does get elected it would be a sideshow and he would be kicked out by the ethics committee. Too many Republicans have already taken a stand, and that was before half the witnesses came forward. On the news tonight the reporter literally chased the one congressman that has supported him as this guy literally ran away from the cameras.

If he is truly concerned about the Republican party he would step aside. It is too late to remove his name from the ballot, but if he steps aside and is elected they could then hold a runoff among other Republicans to fill the vacant seat, or whatever the process is.

Session will take his seat back. Trump isn't pleased with him anyway.

And what about that robocall, that was made to look like it's from a Washington Post reporter, offering $7000 for dirt on Moore? It's fake, made to discredit WaPo.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If he is truly concerned about the Republican party he would step aside. It is too late to remove his name from the ballot, but if he steps aside and is elected they could then hold a runoff among other Republicans to fill the vacant seat, or whatever the process is.

If this is as widespread as reported, perhaps the rest of Congress is simply making Roy Moore their scapegoat.

Women on Capitol Hill Tell of ‘Sex Trade,’ ‘Creep List’ of Lawmakers

Should they all step down?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If this is as widespread as reported, perhaps the rest of Congress is simply making Roy Moore their scapegoat.

Women on Capitol Hill Tell of ‘Sex Trade,’ ‘Creep List’ of Lawmakers

Should they all step down?

Drain the swamp. It would demonstrate that creeps are not allowed in congress, that would embolden more people to come forward concerning other "powerful" people.

Judgement begins in the house of God (Catholic church scandal, PL, and all the others) but it doesn't end there. They made a big deal of James Baker and other religious leaders caught in scandal, well now it is time to move onto Hollywood and Congress.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Drain the swamp. It would demonstrate that creeps are not allowed in congress, that would embolden more people to come forward concerning other "powerful" people.

Judgement begins in the house of God (Catholic church scandal, PL, and all the others) but it doesn't end there. They made a big deal of James Baker and other religious leaders caught in scandal, well now it is time to move onto Hollywood and Congress.

Now they are saying that Congress has a multi-million dolar slush fund, a "shush" fund, a swamp fund, to silence these victims.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now they are saying that Congress has a multi-million dolar slush fund, a "shush" fund, a swamp fund, to silence these victims.

Oh it was sweet. If you are abused you have to go to 30 days of counseling, no doubt counseling similar to the "can't we all just get along" and "think of all the people that will be harmed" counseling. If you still wish to pursue a lawsuit you then need 30 days of mediation -- attempt to buy your silence at a fraction of the cost. Finally, if you still wish to pursue it you need a 30 day cooling off period.

The beauty of this is that there is a 180 day deadline to file. So if someone hesitated for a month or two before starting this process this required cooling off period could literally make it mute.

Finally, if you do sue and win the money is paid by a government fund and not by the offending party! Imagine if LSM had a slush fund to pay for PL's indiscretions!

So, Roy Moore was the needle that lanced this boil.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now they are saying that Congress has a multi-million dolar slush fund, a "shush" fund, a swamp fund, to silence these victims.

Well okay then. On sexual assaults we have Roy Moore on the extreme right, and Al Franken on the extreme left.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well okay then. On sexual assaults we have Roy Moore on the extreme right, and Al Franken on the extreme left.

What's extreme left about Franken?