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Old 04-26-2018, 12:59 AM   #1
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Default Question of salvation and reconciliation.

This week, people in LSM are reading Crystallization of Leviticus as Morning Revival. This book is talking about peace offering. The main subject is the question of salvation and reconciliation. Two days ago, in Morning revival, Lee said that we might not have only individual reconciliation and salvation but also corporate reconciliation and salvation.
I feel weird in these teaching. So, let us discuss the truth about this.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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This week, people in LSM are reading Crystallization of Leviticus as Morning Revival. This book is talking about peace offering. The main subject is the question of salvation and reconciliation. Two days ago, in Morning revival, Lee said that we might not have only individual reconciliation and salvation but also corporate reconciliation and salvation.
I feel weird in these teaching. So, let us discuss the truth about this.
I feel weird about this teaching of theirs too.

LSM has no standing to discuss corporate reconciliation with all the expulsions, quarantines, and lawsuits they have inflicted upon others who once graced their trainings and conferences.

If their attitude towards reconciliation determines their salvation, then I wonder how they can claim to be saved?

History tells us that LSM has never reconciled with any brother or group that disagreed with them.
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

I don't have scripture in front of me, so forgive me for being vague. I believe that both epistles to Hebrews and Ephesians talk about peace and reconciliation, and Christ's role therein.

Ephesians in particular is interesting. There was a wall in the temple, separating the outer and inner courts. On the wall hung a sign: "No gentiles can go beyond here". Christ broke down that wall between the "holy people of God" and the "unclean gentile dogs", so making peace. Read Ephesians 2:14 - it's quite explicit.

Then the gentiles kicked out the Jews. Cyril of Alexandria (re: riots and murder of Hypatia), John Chrysostom, Augustine, Ambrose, and others were judgmental and adversarial. It seems as if every tribe and tongue and nation were indeed invited into to kingdom, except the original one.

Then, not surprising, the gentile nations began warring. The "Chalcedon rift" of the 4th century was ostensibly over the " nature" of Christ, but it was really about power- who got the last word, Antioch, or Rome, Constantinople, or Alexandria?

The peace was gone, interestingly while Christianity was ideologically ascendant. Syria, Ethiopia, Libya, Persia(Iran), Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Italy - all were heavily Christianised.

Today it is still "the way of the gentiles" from what I can see. Organisational formulations and doctrines are the pathways to power. "Do what I say and there will be peace". . . .hello Mssrs Dong. Chu, Nee, Lee, and Blendeds Wee.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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I feel weird about this teaching of theirs too.

LSM has no standing to discuss corporate reconciliation with all the expulsions, quarantines, and lawsuits they have inflicted upon others who once graced their trainings and conferences.

If their attitude towards reconciliation determines their salvation, then I wonder how they can claim to be saved?

History tells us that LSM has never reconciled with any brother or group that disagreed with them.
That's all it can be called is teaching. It's no practice. Just as you say Ohio, history tells us otherwise.
Obviously reconciliation is a concept and not a spiritual responsibility.
The track record is to place emphasis on "trust". How much a brother can be trusted.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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Ephesians is interesting - there was a wall in the temple, separating the outer and inner courts. On the wall hung a sign: "No gentiles can go beyond here". Christ broke down that wall between the "holy people of God" and the "unclean gentile dogs", so making peace. Read Ephesians 2:14 - it's quite explicit.
When king Herod had rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem between 19 and 9 B.C. he enclosed the outer court with colonnades. The large separated area was referred to as the Court of the Gentiles because the "gentiles" (non-Jews from any race or religion) were permitted to enter this great open courtyard of the Temple area. They could walk within in it but they were forbidden to go any further than the outer court. They were excluded from entering into any of the inner courts, and warning signs in Greek and Latin were placed giving strict warning that the penalty for such trespass was death.

The Romans permitted the Jewish authorities to carry out the death penalty for this offence, even if the offender were a Roman citizen. The engraved block of limestone was discovered in Jerusalem in 1871. It's dimensions are about 22 inches high by 33 inches long. Each letter was nearly 1 1/2 inches high and originally painted with red ink against the white limestone. Part of another sign was unearthed in 1936. It's current location is in the Archaeological Museum of Istanbul, Turkey. Jerusalem was part of the Ottoman Empire in Turkey when the stone was found.

Josephus the Jewish historian of the first century A.D. wrote about the warning signs in Greek and Latin that were placed on the barrier wall that separated the court of the gentiles from the other courts in the Temple. Not until 1871 did archaeologists actually discover one written in Greek. Its seven line inscription reads as follows:

NO FOREIGNER IS TO GO BEYOND THE BALUSTRADE AND THE PLAZA OF THE TEMPLE ZONE WHOEVER IS CAUGHT DOING SO WILL HAVE HIMSELF TO BLAME FOR HIS DEATH WHICH WILL FOLLOW

The Temple Warning Inscription is important in the study of Biblical Archaeology and confirms events outlined in Scripture. When Jesus saw this inscription he knew that his own life would be the cost for the gentiles to go past this barrier.

Ephesians 2:13-14 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us"

https://www.bible-history.com/archae...e-warning.html
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Old 07-24-2018, 09:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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This week, people in LSM are reading Crystallization of Leviticus as Morning Revival. This book is talking about peace offering. The main subject is the question of salvation and reconciliation. Two days ago, in Morning revival, Lee said that we might not have only individual reconciliation and salvation but also corporate reconciliation and salvation.
I feel weird in these teaching. So, let us discuss the truth about this.
What is it about the matter of a corporate reconciliation to God that makes you feel weird? I haven't done a verse count, but a large portion of the verses in the OT & NT regarding God's salvation of man actually refer not to the individual but to His corporate people.

Regarding the teaching, the matter spoken of regarding salvation and reconciliation is not discussing the matter of believers being reconciled to one another specifically, but being reconciled to God. The point is bringing out that in an experiential way, God has judicially redeemed and is reconciling each individual to Himself (2 Cor. 5:18; Rom. 5:10). From the divine perspective, however, God has judicially redeemed and is continually reconciling not only all of the elect to Himself but even the entire universe (2 Cor. 5:19; Col. 1:20 cf. Jn. 3:16; 1:29).

@Truthseeker, do you meet with the LCs or are you just still in fellowship with some believers who do? Interesting that you'd know the churches were in that particular HWMR
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:04 AM   #7
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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What is it about the matter of a corporate reconciliation to God that makes you feel weird? I haven't done a verse count, but a large portion of the verses in the OT & NT regarding God's salvation of man actually refer not to the individual but to His corporate people.
I feel a little "weird" about LSM's teaching of a "corporate reconciliation" since they have been so public with their condemnations of all other Christians and churches, and quarantine so many of their own people.

Perhaps hypocrisy is a better word for this.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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I feel a little "weird" about LSM's teaching of a "corporate reconciliation" since they have been so public with their condemnations of all other Christians and churches, and quarantine so many of their own people.

Perhaps hypocrisy is a better word for this.
Any talk about reconciliation is just lipservice until it actually happens. LC track record is the leadership is never wrong and won't apologize for anything.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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...@Truthseeker, do you meet with the LCs or are you just still in fellowship with some believers who do? Interesting that you'd know the churches were in that particular HWMR
Truthseeker, I feel weird about someone not registered on the forum trying to get personal information from you.

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Old 07-28-2018, 07:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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History tells us that LSM has never reconciled with any brother or group that disagreed with them.
Is that 100% accurate bro? (Would you completely discount brother Hanegraaff?)

I would agree to maybe the 99% level, but "never" is a distinctly absolute statement, right? If there is ever to be any reconciliation in love, then we must . . .

Help us Lord!
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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Is that 100% accurate bro? (Would you completely discount brother Hanegraaff?)

I would agree to maybe the 99% level, but "never" is a distinctly absolute statement, right? If there is ever to be any reconciliation in love, then we must . . .

Help us Lord!
I could add Gene Ford whose penance was working in the kitchen and digging tunnels in Taipei. What Lee and the Blendeds forced him to do in order to be restored to their good graces!
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:18 PM   #12
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I could add Gene Ford whose penance was working in the kitchen and digging tunnels in Taipei. What Lee and the Blendeds forced him to do in order to be restored to their good graces!
What is your ultimate purpose with this brother? Is it pointing out flaws (with the end of helping others) or possible reconciliation in love?

Sorry if that's blunt, but that's what's in me to ask.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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Is that 100% accurate bro? (Would you completely discount brother Hanegraaff?) I would agree to maybe the 99% level, but "never" is a distinctly absolute statement, right? If there is ever to be any reconciliation in love, then we must . . .Help us Lord!
I would discount Hanegraff. If it had been Walter Martin instead of Hank, you would have a point. Opinions other past and current posters have raised was Hank could be bought with a dollar amount. If LSM offered enough, then certainly CRI could be wrong.

Key phrase uttered in your post was "reconciliation in love". When has there been love? Trust seems to have been key in the local churches for fellowship to continue. If there's been love, it's been on a conditional basis.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:28 PM   #14
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I would discount Hanegraff. If it had been Walter Martin instead of Hank, you would have a point...
Whose responsibility is it to love others "first?"
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:37 AM   #15
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What is your ultimate purpose with this brother? Is it pointing out flaws (with the end of helping others) or possible reconciliation in love?
Sorry if that's blunt, but that's what's in me to ask.
My ultimate purpose with this brother?

What does that even mean?
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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My ultimate purpose with this brother?

What does that even mean?
I'm wondering about the tone of many of the conversations on here. It just seems the main purpose is to point out flaws of other believers (when we truly all have "warts" - even though mine are so much smaller than yours - I'm joking of course). I know, I know - it's supposedly about helping others who are "trapped" in the LC or to help clarify what they went through, etc. But so much of it just seems to me to be made in a critical and judgmental spirit - which is NOT Christ (at least in my humble estimation). We are exhorted to let all we do, be done for building up in love. While intentions seem to be good, if the focus is not Christ, it's futile effort and merely entertainment.

(I wonder how posts might look if we asked the Lord specifically about what we are saying or how we are responding to someone, before we hit the enter button. I know I have been checked by the Anointing from saying certain things on here.)

So I ask - is there any room for love and forgiveness in us, for those in the LC who have been in error (and visa versa)? And where does that start? If we think that it should be others whom the Lord must work in first to repent, I don't know that love and forgiveness will ever happen. (e.g., do we really love those on here who are dogged supporters of all things WL & LC? Or do we say, "Sure I love them in Christ, but" . . . ?)

Does that make sense bro?
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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I'm wondering about the tone of many of the conversations on here. It just seems the main purpose is to point out flaws of other believers (when we truly all have "warts" - even though mine are so much smaller than yours - I'm joking of course). I know, I know - it's supposedly about helping others who are "trapped" in the LC or to help clarify what they went through, etc. But so much of it just seems to me to be made in a critical and judgmental spirit - which is NOT Christ (at least in my humble estimation). We are exhorted to let all we do, be done for building up in love. While intentions seem to be good, if the focus is not Christ, it's futile effort and merely entertainment.

(I wonder how posts might look if we asked the Lord specifically about what we are saying or how we are responding to someone, before we hit the enter button. I know I have been checked by the Anointing from saying certain things on here.)

So I ask - is there any room for love and forgiveness in us, for those in the LC who have been in error (and visa versa)? And where does that start? If we think that it should be others whom the Lord must work in first to repent, I don't know that love and forgiveness will ever happen. (e.g., do we really love those on here who are dogged supporters of all things WL & LC? Or do we say, "Sure I love them in Christ, but" . . . ?)

Does that make sense bro?
Sure it makes sense bro, but ...

Numerous verses in the NT show us where the Apostles warned us of serious errors in the teaching and practices of the false brothers, false apostles, false teachers, false prophets, etc. These are not "flaws" in others. These are not simple matters, as in "everybody makes mistakes," or "nobody is perfect." People got hurt, and you act as if it were nothing.

To address your chief point, there are numerous brothers and sisters who have contacted LSM for years in order to attempt reconciliation according to the scriptures (Matthew 18) and LSM refused to even acknowledge them.

The guidelines in the NT are simple, are these false ones damaging the children of God? Yes, we should forgive them. We are commanded to forgive all who have hurt or offended us. Yet Rom 16.17-18 instructs us "to watch and mark those who make divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the teachings of the apostles, for such men serve their own appetites and by deceptive talks deceive the hearts of the simple."

Now why didn't Paul instruct me in Romans 16 to just forgive these ones from LSM who did exactly this to all the Midwest LC's? I watched LSM use deceptive speech to make divisions and causes of stumbling to many saints I knew personally over the years.

If you can convince me by the scripture and plain reason that I should just "forgive and forget" then I will.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:35 PM   #18
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Does that make sense bro?
Ohio has provided a great reply already so I just add my two cents here.

Even the Blended knows the importance of speaking up...

a. With an enlarged heart the apostles were able to embrace all believers regardless of their condition, and with an opened mouth they were able to speak to all believers frankly concerning the real situation into which they had been misled.

b. This kind of openness and enlargement is needed to reconcile, to bring back, the misled or distracted believers to God.

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Old 07-30-2018, 02:02 AM   #19
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I'm wondering about the tone of many of the conversations on here. It just seems the main purpose is to point out flaws of other believers (when we truly all have "warts" - even though mine are so much smaller than yours - I'm joking of course).
While you're wondering about "the tone of many of the conversations on here", may we wonder about your tone as well? Do you really think your joke is appropriate? Many on this forum have been gutted by LC leadership and members. If you really think the "main purpose" is to point out flaws of other believers, you have totally missed the point of the entire forum, and if you really think that's something to joke about, you are clueless.

Quote:
I know, I know - it's supposedly about helping others who are "trapped" in the LC or to help clarify what they went through, etc. But so much of it just seems to me to be made in a critical and judgmental spirit - which is NOT Christ (at least in my humble estimation). We are exhorted to let all we do, be done for building up in love. While intentions seem to be good, if the focus is not Christ, it's futile effort and merely entertainment.
You understand that for you to say “I know, I know” conveys both a dismissive and condescending tone? "Supposedly" about helping others...? Perhaps you should acknowledge your own critical and judgmental spirit. Your "tone" not only minimizes but makes jokes about the pain of your own brothers and sisters who were abused in that system. Can we say your critical and judgmental and dismissive spirit is also NOT Christ?

What is YOUR focus? Is it your "focus" to defend those who abuse the Lord's brothers? Is YOUR focus "Christ"?

Quote:
(I wonder how posts might look if we asked the Lord specifically about what we are saying or how we are responding to someone, before we hit the enter button. I know I have been checked by the Anointing from saying certain things on here.)
Are you assuming that you are the only one who prays about your words, before posting?

Quote:
So I ask - is there any room for love and forgiveness in us, for those in the LC who have been in error (and visa versa)? And where does that start? If we think that it should be others whom the Lord must work in first to repent, I don't know that love and forgiveness will ever happen. (e.g., do we really love those on here who are dogged supporters of all things WL & LC? Or do we say, "Sure I love them in Christ, but" . . . ?)
Here we go. Sure. There is room for love and forgiveness for the LC leadership and members who "have been" and still are in error. But it would really help if you all would repent. That is, have a change of heart and mind. Stop your sinning against your brothers and sisters. Make amends.

Can you be "in error" and "in Christ" at the same time? Can you abuse someone while you are "in Christ"?

"Love and forgiveness" is a two-way street. That's where it starts. You can't expect someone else to "love and forgive" while your sin continues...while your "error" continues. And when someone has had enough abuse, they finally find their voice and begin to TELL THE TRUTH about the one/s abusing them, you accuse them of not loving and not forgiving. This is gross hypocrisy.

Quote:
Does that make sense bro?
To the sober minded man, no. Hypocrisy does not make sense.

But, we've heard this before. There are plenty of posts on this forum like yours...it’s the classic "blame the victim" post. You blame the victim for not being "in Christ" while excusing the abuser who claims to be "in Christ". You expect "love and forgiveness" toward those LC'ers who (admittedly) have been in error, but you have NO love and NO compassion for those who cannot take the abuse any longer. Some of us have finally found our voice to speak the truth to those who have little or no capacity, or will, to hear. As Ohio said, no one is listening.

Nell

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Old 07-30-2018, 06:20 AM   #20
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But, we've heard this before. There are plenty of posts like yours...itís the classic "blame the victim" post. You blame the victim for not being "in Christ" while excusing the abuser who claims to be "in Christ". You expect "love and forgiveness" toward those LC'ers who (admittedly) have been in error, but you have NO love and NO compassion for those who cannot take the abuse any longer. Some of us have finally found our voice to speak the truth to those who have little or no capacity, or will, to hear.
Nell, reading your polemic post I kept thinking how easily the children of God have been fooled over the centuries by the contrived airs of superiority from those who wear the nice suits, pad each others' resumes, mount the platform, and often sow seeds of suspicion to undermine others' credibility. Today they are still lording it over the little ones. When these little ones call for accountability, they demand the faithful to "forgive and forget" their many failures. Failures that fleeced them, failures that fooled them, failures that smeared the reputations of the honest ones.

The Apostle Paul faced the same battle from those coming from headquarters to undermine his gospel work as noted especially in Acts, Galatians and II Corinthians. Church history has basically been an age-long struggle of knowing who to believe -- within the church. When Paul left Ephesus for the last time he sought to protect them from subsequent invaders with their false authority. He mentioned some of his own traits like "how I was with you all the time, serving as a slave with humility, tears and trials, visiting house to house, etc." (Acts 20)

I saw none of these characteristics from any of those coming from Anaheim to the Midwest saints. All of their supposed authority, handed down from W. Lee, was false and deceptive. Yet in LC after LC the Midwest precious saints were fooled by them. Fooled by these false apostles, deceitful workers, even as Satan himself transfigured himself into an "angel of light."
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Old 07-30-2018, 11:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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While you're wondering about "the tone of many of the conversations on here", may we wonder about your tone as well? Do you really think your joke is appropriate? Many on this forum have been gutted by LC leadership and members. If you really think the "main purpose" is to point out flaws of other believers, you have totally missed the point of the entire forum, and if you really think that's something to joke about, you are clueless.



You understand that for you to say “I know, I know” conveys both a dismissive and condescending tone? "Supposedly" about helping others...? Perhaps you should acknowledge your own critical and judgmental spirit. Your "tone" not only minimizes but makes jokes about the pain of your own brothers and sisters who were abused in that system. Can we say your critical and judgmental and dismissive spirit is also NOT Christ?

What is YOUR focus? Is it your "focus" to defend those who abuse the Lord's brothers? Is YOUR focus "Christ"?



Are you assuming that you are the only one who prays about your words, before posting?



Here we go. Sure. There is room for love and forgiveness for the LC leadership and members who "have been" and still are in error. But it would really help if you all would repent. That is, have a change of heart and mind. Stop your sinning against your brothers and sisters. Make amends.

Can you be "in error" and "in Christ" at the same time? Can you abuse someone while you are "in Christ"?

"Love and forgiveness" is a two-way street. That's where it starts. You can't expect someone else to "love and forgive" while your sin continues...while your "error" continues. And when someone has had enough abuse, they finally find their voice and begin to TELL THE TRUTH about the one/s abusing them, you accuse them of not loving and not forgiving. This is gross hypocrisy.



To the sober minded man, no. Hypocrisy does not make sense.

But, we've heard this before. There are plenty of posts on this forum like yours...it’s the classic "blame the victim" post. You blame the victim for not being "in Christ" while excusing the abuser who claims to be "in Christ". You expect "love and forgiveness" toward those LC'ers who (admittedly) have been in error, but you have NO love and NO compassion for those who cannot take the abuse any longer. Some of us have finally found our voice to speak the truth to those who have little or no capacity, or will, to hear. As Ohio said, no one is listening.

Nell
All good points, Nell. It is a very sensitive topic, to be sure. I certainly don't want to try and minimize the hurt & damage others have felt.

Yes, it is hard and maybe impossible for us to forgive. Fortunately it was not impossible for God in Christ to forgive, while sinners were unrighteously torturing and putting Him to a degrading death.

One thing about unforgiveness is what it does to the person holding on to it. Corrie ten Boom also found it impossible to forgive the "monster" Nazi officer who had carries out heinous things against others in the concentration camp she was in. Yet, after the war there he was, standing in front of her, a new creation in Christ (and forgiven by Christ). Impossible to forgive his overt brutality, and she experienced that. When she knew 100% she wasn't capable of the least bit of forgiveness to him, then God had a way. She experienced God's overwhelming forgiveness - what a gift of freedom to her bitter heart!

Has there been a ton of bad things done by the LC, LSM, WL et. al.? Sure. Have many been hurt by their actions? You bet!

But where do we go from here?

Again, sorry if I offended. I just know one day there will be accountability for all in His body and how we handled one another in love. Real love. His love.
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Old 07-30-2018, 11:20 AM   #22
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Sure it makes sense bro, but ...

Numerous verses in the NT show us where the Apostles warned us of serious errors in the teaching and practices of the false brothers, false apostles, false teachers, false prophets, etc. These are not "flaws" in others. These are not simple matters, as in "everybody makes mistakes," or "nobody is perfect." People got hurt, and you act as if it were nothing.

To address your chief point, there are numerous brothers and sisters who have contacted LSM for years in order to attempt reconciliation according to the scriptures (Matthew 18) and LSM refused to even acknowledge them.

The guidelines in the NT are simple, are these false ones damaging the children of God? Yes, we should forgive them. We are commanded to forgive all who have hurt or offended us. Yet Rom 16.17-18 instructs us "to watch and mark those who make divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the teachings of the apostles, for such men serve their own appetites and by deceptive talks deceive the hearts of the simple."

Now why didn't Paul instruct me in Romans 16 to just forgive these ones from LSM who did exactly this to all the Midwest LC's? I watched LSM use deceptive speech to make divisions and causes of stumbling to many saints I knew personally over the years.

If you can convince me by the scripture and plain reason that I should just "forgive and forget" then I will.
Yes, we can probably make such a case from the word. Is this really what the Lord is having you do (almost 10,000 posts worth)? If so, then amen! Truly.

Beyond answering the above, I haven't the peace to go further . . .
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Old 07-30-2018, 12:42 PM   #23
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Yes, we can probably make such a case from the word. Is this really what the Lord is having you do (almost 10,000 posts worth)? If so, then amen! Truly.

Beyond answering the above, I haven't the peace to go further . . .
Remember my posts are short, quick, living, and to the point -- for the sake of readability. They add up quick.

Also, many of my posts are in Alt-Views -- topics like politics, science, climate, etc.

And I never did like others have done -- re-registered under a new name.

And I have been here ten years helping UntoHim. It's not a sprint, but a marathon, right?

So I am supposed to feel guilty about all of my posts because of how you feel? What if you had watched LSM destroy all the churches you worked to build up? And tried to destroy many of the brothers you loved and respected?
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:44 PM   #24
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What if you had watched LSM destroy all the churches you worked to build up? And tried to destroy many of the brothers you loved and respected?
That is the question, isn't it? I don't know.

Okay, bro. I asked what I think was needed to be asked. I don't know that any more on this would be profitable. May we experience His peace!

We good?
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Old 07-30-2018, 04:01 PM   #25
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That is the question, isn't it? I don't know.

Okay, bro. I asked what I think was needed to be asked. I don't know that any more on this would be profitable. May we experience His peace!

We good?
We be all good.

Washed in the blood of the Lamb!
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Old 07-31-2018, 06:23 AM   #26
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All good points, Nell. It is a very sensitive topic, to be sure. I certainly don't want to try and minimize the hurt & damage others have felt.

Yes, it is hard and maybe impossible for us to forgive. Fortunately it was not impossible for God in Christ to forgive, while sinners were unrighteously torturing and putting Him to a degrading death.
So you think those being abused by the LC leadership and other LC members should just shut up and forgive the LC abusers? Do you think speaking the truth about your abuser means you are living in "unforgiveness?" Isn't the abuser living in great sin and need in need of rescue? Isn't the abuser in need of someone confronting him/her about their behavior? Who is in worse condition, the abuser or those being abused? The abusers are supposed to be the shepherds of the flock. What is their accountability...not only to the sheep, but the One who entrusted them to care for His flock?

It's not really about the abused walking in "unforgiveness" is it? This is an extension of the "blame the victim" myth. You can't abuse someone then stand over them and preach to them about being "unforgiving."

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One thing about unforgiveness is what it does to the person holding on to it. Corrie ten Boom also found it impossible to forgive the "monster" Nazi officer who had carries out heinous things against others in the concentration camp she was in. Yet, after the war there he was, standing in front of her, a new creation in Christ (and forgiven by Christ). Impossible to forgive his overt brutality, and she experienced that. When she knew 100% she wasn't capable of the least bit of forgiveness to him, then God had a way. She experienced God's overwhelming forgiveness - what a gift of freedom to her bitter heart!
Really? You're going there? Did the German SS need the Jews to forgive them so they could continue their slaughter of innocent Jews? Or did the German SS need to STOP, or be stopped, in its war against God's people?

The message of unforgiveness is best delivered by the Holy Spirit, as with CTB. Take the wife beater who is forgiven by the wife while he continues to beat her until he kills her. Do you think the wife beater is concerned about what "unforgiveness" does to his wife? Only to the extent that it enables him to beat her.

Quote:
Has there been a ton of bad things done by the LC, LSM, WL et. al.? Sure. Have many been hurt by their actions? You bet!

But where do we go from here?

Again, sorry if I offended. I just know one day there will be accountability for all in His body and how we handled one another in love. Real love. His love.
Is anyone in the LC leadership or membership ASKING for forgiveness? As Ohio and I both are trying to tell you. NO! No one is asking for forgiveness. Your preaching to the victims of abuse about what unforgiveness does to them is gross.

Where do YOU go from here? Go to the LC leadership and preach your message to THEM.

Go to THEM with their "ton of bad things done by the LC, LSM, WL et. al.? Sure. Have many been hurt by their actions? You bet! "

And stop trying to put a guilt trip on those of us who resist the abusers and their "ton of bad things" that continues to this day, and are trying to recover from the hurt inflicted on them by their bad actions. Your "message" is far worse for you than it is for us. It's not as offensive to me as maybe to some. The real problem I see, and the reason I'm fighting back, is the lies of the devil that the LC uses to justify its "bad behavior."

You're an "insider". You are responsible to stop the abuse. That's where you go from here.

If you're truly concerned about accountability, go to those who are perpetrating abuse on God's people.

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Old 07-31-2018, 07:28 AM   #27
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The message of unforgiveness is best delivered by the Holy Spirit

Nell
Lot's of pain here, so we'll just leave it at what you wrote (above).

BTW - I currently have no fellowship with anyone in the LC movement, unless you count a couple ones on this forum.

Grace to you and peace!
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Old 07-31-2018, 10:15 AM   #28
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Lot's of pain here, so we'll just leave it at what you wrote (above).

BTW - I currently have no fellowship with anyone in the LC movement, unless you count a couple ones on this forum.

Grace to you and peace!
Pain? Are you, once again, dismissing what I'm saying because you think I'm speaking out of pain? Just take what I'm saying at face value and please don't read anything into this topic that isn't there.

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Old 07-31-2018, 10:17 AM   #29
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Pain? Are you, once again, dismissing what I'm saying because you think I'm speaking out of pain? Just take what I'm saying at face value and please don't read anything into this topic that isn't there.

Nell
Okay, I won't. Can you please forgive me?
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:04 AM   #30
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Okay, I won't. Can you please forgive me?
Yes. You are forgiven.
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Old 08-03-2018, 06:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: Question of salvation and reconciliation.

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I'm wondering about the tone of many of the conversations on here. It just seems the main purpose is to point out flaws of other believers (when we truly all have "warts" - even though mine are so much smaller than yours - I'm joking of course). I know, I know - it's supposedly about helping others who are "trapped" in the LC or to help clarify what they went through, etc. But so much of it just seems to me to be made in a critical and judgmental spirit - which is NOT Christ (at least in my humble estimation). We are exhorted to let all we do, be done for building up in love. While intentions seem to be good, if the focus is not Christ, it's futile effort and merely entertainment.

(I wonder how posts might look if we asked the Lord specifically about what we are saying or how we are responding to someone, before we hit the enter button. I know I have been checked by the Anointing from saying certain things on here.)

So I ask - is there any room for love and forgiveness in us, for those in the LC who have been in error (and visa versa)? And where does that start? If we think that it should be others whom the Lord must work in first to repent, I don't know that love and forgiveness will ever happen. (e.g., do we really love those on here who are dogged supporters of all things WL & LC? Or do we say, "Sure I love them in Christ, but" . . . ?)

Does that make sense bro?
StG,

You express the heart of the Lord...

..however, expressing such sentiment is probably not sustainable in this forum.

I say probably because unless the Lord grants you a strenghthened heart you will eventually abandon expressing those thoughts about forgiveness or over time you may yield to an unforgiving spirit yourself.

May the Lord grant you grace and clarity.

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Old 08-03-2018, 06:23 AM   #32
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So you think those being abused by the LC leadership and other LC members should just shut up and forgive the LC abusers? Do you think speaking the truth about your abuser means you are living in "unforgiveness?" Isn't the abuser living in great sin and need in need of rescue? Isn't the abuser in need of someone confronting him/her about their behavior? Who is in worse condition, the abuser or those being abused? The abusers are supposed to be the shepherds of the flock. What is their accountability...not only to the sheep, but the One who entrusted them to care for His flock?

It's not really about the abused walking in "unforgiveness" is it? This is an extension of the "blame the victim" myth. You can't abuse someone then stand over them and preach to them about being "unforgiving."
Nell, I appreciate your candid, albeit blunt, assessment of LC leadership. It is not "Christian" leadership per se, but actually is abuse, and is accurately called "lording it over those entrusted" to these leaders. (I Peter 5.2-3) LSM has long ruled the LC's "by way of compulsion, not according to God, but seeking gain by base means."

I would add that LC leaders learn all their bad habits from regional and national workers at LSM. There is a grossly flawed pattern of authority taught and practiced by Witness Lee himself which has corrupted the entire leadership structure of the LCM. There is a disease of lust for power and control which has polluted the entire movement.
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