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Old 04-09-2018, 05:55 PM   #1
leastofthese
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Default DCP

The signature of one member of this forum states, "Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless - Witness Lee."

I decided to look a little further into this (supposed) quote and found the following website: https://contendingforthefaith.org/en...protestantism/

The quote on this site is actually as follows, "Judaism is Satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is Christless."

It is an interesting site, that justifies its own existence not on scripture, but instead by the works of Watchman Nee. Their conclusion to why DCP lawsuits are permitted is, "From this exchange we can perceive that Watchman Nee drew a distinction between a lawsuit filed for personal gain or interest, such as the one recorded in 1 Corinthians, and those involving the protection of basic freedoms and the defense of the truth."

I'm not familiar with the DCP and wasn't aware of its existence when I attended the Local Churches of Witness Lee. Does the DCP defend every position of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? After perusing the site for awhile, it seems as though every position of Nee/Lee that is questioned required a defense. Is there any section or historical account where the DCP (not CRI) says "We were wrong"? Given the difficult reality of the LSM churches today (not to mention in years past), surely there was something Lee/Nee got wrong, right?

If the DCP has no need to admit error or wrongdoing by Lee/Nee, what should be our conclusion?
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: DCP

DCP will never issue any retractions of wrongdoings. Rather suggest those critical of the recovery have "imagined offenses, perceived wrongdoings" and based it entirely on rumor and slander.
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: DCP

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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Their conclusion to why DCP lawsuits are permitted is, "From this exchange we can perceive that Watchman Nee drew a distinction between a lawsuit filed for personal gain or interest, such as the one recorded in 1 Corinthians, and those involving the protection of basic freedoms and the defense of the truth."
Wow! So the lawsuits "Protected basic freedoms" and they were the "defense of the truth"?

Watchman Nee is able to decide what part of the Bible to obey and what part to ignore?

Their lawsuits were "not for personal gain"?

arrogance. : an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions.

From this statement DCP admits the Bible prohibits lawsuits but view Watchman Nee's "distinctions" as superseding the word of God.
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: DCP

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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I'm not familiar with the DCP and wasn't aware of its existence when I attended the Local Churches of Witness Lee. Does the DCP defend every position of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? After perusing the site for awhile, it seems as though every position of Nee/Lee that is questioned required a defense. Is there any section or historical account where the DCP (not CRI) says "We were wrong"? Given the difficult reality of the LSM churches today (not to mention in years past), surely there was something Lee/Nee got wrong, right?
Whether anyone in the LCM will admit it or not, Nee and Lee are perceived to be inerrant teachers. To everyone outside the LCM, Nee and Lee are highly controversial teachers. In that sense, I see the DCP as more of a PR department. They aren't actually doing anything to provide a meaningful defense of Nee/Lee, but they are working to create and maintain a certain image.

As part of upholding that image, there is no room for them to admit to any kind of wrongdoing, either by Lee or the LCM. As soon as they've admitted that, they've admitted defeat.
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:00 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
Whether anyone in the LCM will admit it or not, Nee and Lee are perceived to be inerrant teachers. To everyone outside the LCM, Nee and Lee are highly controversial teachers. In that sense, I see the DCP as more of a PR department. They aren't actually doing anything to provide a meaningful defense of Nee/Lee, but they are working to create and maintain a certain image.

As part of upholding that image, there is no room for them to admit to any kind of wrongdoing, either by Lee or the LCM. As soon as they've admitted that, they've admitted defeat.
If you understand this, you understand everything about them, and nothing they do will ever surprise you.

For example, take a look at the following statement ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
The signature of one member of this forum states, "Judaism is Satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Christianity is Christless - Witness Lee."
Consider the bolded third segment of this saying. Nee initially said that Laodicea resulted when Philadelphia became proud and arrogant. (See his Orthodoxy of the Church) In their epistle, the Son of Man stood at the church in Laodicea's door and knocked. (Rev 3.20) Nee then proclaimed that the Lord was outside of the church in Laodicea. How could the MOTA be wrong?

Lee took all of this further and proclaimed that the Lord stood knocking outside of the entire realm of Christianity. Thus, the whole of Christianity was entirely void of Christ. Hence, Christianity is Christless. How could the MOTA be wrong?

Each and every LSM/LC leader believes this unreservedly. It's part of their spiritual DNA. Just ask them. The Bible doesn't say it, but they believe it because their MOTA's said so. The words of Nee and Lee have superseded scripture. Their legal team at DCP "proved" it was true.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: DCP

-1

Ohio,

Your argument is a technical one. It would be like objecting to the statement “DC is a swamp”. Not every politician or civil servant in DC represents the swamp just as not every christian in a denomination is without Christ. Either general statement can be true without it needing to be true in every instance.

Where the statement applies is that the Reformation did not return the headship to Christ but created another system (Protestantism), an improvement to the Catholic Satanic system which was also Christless.

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Old 04-10-2018, 04:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: DCP

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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

Ohio,

Your argument is a technical one. It would be like objecting to the statement “DC is a swamp”. Not every politician or civil servant in DC represents the swamp just as not every christian in a denomination is without Christ. Either general statement can be true without it needing to be true in every instance.

Where the statement applies is that the Reformation did not return the headship to Christ but created another system (Protestantism), an improvement to the Catholic Satanic system which was also Christless.

Drake
Drake, you can talk "technicalities" all day long until the we finally get some warm weather which resembles springtime, but the fact is that almost without exception your typical LC member believes that the Lord is part of their meetings only, and that the Lord is outside the door of every other church gathering in Christianity.

To your archetypal adherent of LSM theology, "Christianity is Christless."
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake, you can talk "technicalities" all day long until the we finally get some warm weather which resembles springtime, but the fact is that almost without exception your typical LC member believes that the Lord is part of their meetings only, and that the Lord is outside the door of every other church gathering in Christianity.

To your archetypal adherent of LSM theology, "Christianity is Christless."
Maybe you need to read:

Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church
Book by Michael Horton

Dr Michael has a PhD. He is also a professor of theology. If this is what a professor of theology is saying about Christianity.....

The book has a star rating of 4.5/5 on Amazon. Apparently this idea resonates with many people. Unfortunately many are not willing to address the problem and find a solution.

The funny thing is that Nee, Lee and the local churches have been addressing this problem of Christless Christianity for decades while denominations are either ignorant of the problem or still trying to figure out what to do about it.

Even though Horton has a shallow understanding of the problem, he has at least noticed the problem. But the problem is not that Christ is not preached from the pulpit. The problem is that the pulpits being preached from belong to man made organizations.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:37 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The funny thing is that Nee, Lee and the local churches have been addressing this problem of Christless Christianity for decades while denominations are either ignorant of the problem or still trying to figure out what to do about it.
Lee attempted to position the LCM as an alternative to so-called "Christless Christianity." And indeed the very premise of the LCM is that it is something some much better than everything else.

But here we are in 2018 and the DCP has to have a site dedicated to spinning facts and trying to convince people why the LCM & Nee/Lee is worth a second of anyone's time. The LCM has had 50+ years to prove that it is what it claims to be. If they cannot demonstrate that by the way the interact with and treat other Christians, then something is fundamentally wrong. People can make claims of "Christless Christianity" all they want. But it means nothing unless they are offering something worthy of comparison.
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Old 04-10-2018, 05:55 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Maybe you need to read:

Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church
Book by Michael Horton

Dr Michael has a PhD. He is also a professor of theology. If this is what a professor of theology is saying about Christianity.....

The book has a star rating of 4.5/5 on Amazon. Apparently this idea resonates with many people. Unfortunately many are not willing to address the problem and find a solution.

The funny thing is that Nee, Lee and the local churches have been addressing this problem of Christless Christianity for decades while denominations are either ignorant of the problem or still trying to figure out what to do about it.

Even though Horton has a shallow understanding of the problem, he has at least noticed the problem. But the problem is not that Christ is not preached from the pulpit. The problem is that the pulpits being preached from belong to man made organizations.
EvanG, this forum has been addressing the problem of Christlessness in the Recovery for the last decade. All we need is a decent Amazon rating and perhaps you would join us.
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake, you can talk "technicalities" all day long until the we finally get some warm weather which resembles springtime, but the fact is that almost without exception your typical LC member believes that the Lord is part of their meetings only, and that the Lord is outside the door of every other church gathering in Christianity.

To your archetypal adherent of LSM theology, "Christianity is Christless."
Ohio,

That statement is completely bogus. I'll give you one exception.. me.

I was saved through a denomination, served in a denomination, have fellowship with brothers and sisters in denominations, and I know the Lord works in and through people in many places. I
am typical or right of center so your assertion is already slipping away.

But wait... there's more.... You cannot possibly know what tens of thousands of believers in the Lord's Recovery think about this or any other belief. Unless you are claiming omnipotence there is the fallacy and absurdity of your claim.

Lastly, you apparently never understood the basic teaching in the Lord's Recovery of Revelation 2 & 3. Four of them will exist till He returns. Suggest you read Orthodoxy of the Church to understand what is actually taught.

Drake
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: DCP

Hey Drake,

This thread is about the DCP - not Ohio. If you're going to give him a hard time, at least let it be about Trump

Please reserve comments on this thread that apply to your thoughts on or experience with the DCP.

Your brother from another mother,

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Old 04-10-2018, 08:08 PM   #13
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Ohio,

That statement is completely bogus. I'll give you one exception.. me.

I was saved through a denomination, served in a denomination, have fellowship with brothers and sisters in denominations, and I know the Lord works in and through people in many places. I
am typical or right of center so your assertion is already slipping away.

But wait... there's more.... You cannot possibly know what tens of thousands of believers in the Lord's Recovery think about this or any other belief. Unless you are claiming omnipotence there is the fallacy and absurdity of your claim.

Lastly, you apparently never understood the basic teaching in the Lord's Recovery of Revelation 2 & 3. Four of them will exist till He returns. Suggest you read Orthodoxy of the Church to understand what is actually taught.

Drake
I said ALMOST without exception. I thought about you. There's only one Drake in all of the Lord's body!

Nee taught both progression and continuation for churches 4-7. I know what Nee taught, but I don't have to agree. Lot's of errors in that book.
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Old 04-11-2018, 07:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Hey Drake,

This thread is about the DCP - not Ohio. If you're going to give him a hard time, at least let it be about Trump

Please reserve comments on this thread that apply to your thoughts on or experience with the DCP.

Your brother from another mother,

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Dear BFAM,

How could I give Brother Ohio a hard time about that? Probably sat next to him at a rally with our red MAGA caps shouting “USA!” and “Build that wall!”

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Old 04-11-2018, 08:47 AM   #15
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Dear BFAM,

How could I give Brother Ohio a hard time about that? Probably sat next to him at a rally with our red MAGA caps shouting “USA!” and “Build that wall!”

My security detail would never allow that.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:47 AM   #16
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Suggest you read Orthodoxy of the Church to understand what is actually taught.
Or even Practical Expression of the Church, but then again if practices matched what was taught, many of us may not even be on this forum.
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Old 04-11-2018, 03:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Maybe you need to read:

Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church
Book by Michael Horton

Dr Michael has a PhD. He is also a professor of theology. If this is what a professor of theology is saying about Christianity.....

The book has a star rating of 4.5/5 on Amazon. Apparently this idea resonates with many people. Unfortunately many are not willing to address the problem and find a solution.

The funny thing is that Nee, Lee and the local churches have been addressing this problem of Christless Christianity for decades while denominations are either ignorant of the problem or still trying to figure out what to do about it.

Even though Horton has a shallow understanding of the problem, he has at least noticed the problem. But the problem is not that Christ is not preached from the pulpit. The problem is that the pulpits being preached from belong to man made organizations.
Aha! I knew someone would brought up Michael Horton's book in this thread. I had an epub of that copy. But the problem with Witness Lee in his critique on Christianity is hasty generalization!

Michael Horton is a Presbyterian. I'm sure his church is no exception for a christless Christianity according to Witness Lee.
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Old 04-11-2018, 04:25 PM   #18
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Aha! I knew someone would brought up Michael Horton's book in this thread. I had an epub of that copy. But the problem with Witness Lee in his critique on Christianity is hasty generalization!

Michael Horton is a Presbyterian. I'm sure his church is no exception for a christless Christianity according to Witness Lee.
As an outsider, Lee could have a proper perspective. It only takes a little leaven to ruin the dough, and once the leaven is in the dough you have to throw it out and make a new dough. So unless Horton renounces Presbyterianism he cannot solve the problem. Horton addresses the problem of Christ not being preached from the pulpit. This is only a bandage solution. He does not go deeper into why that is the case:

Presbyterianism preaches presbyterianism
Catholicism preaches catholicism
Lutheranism preaches Lutheranism

etc

The Bible already gives the solution:

Rev 18:4 "Come away from her, my people.

2 Cor 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,

Until Horton comes to the realization that coming out is the only solution, nothing will change.
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Old 04-11-2018, 05:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Brother Untohim - again, thanks for your service on this forum.

Can we please keep this thread on the topic of the DCP?
Yes. What he say!
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Old 04-11-2018, 08:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese
Brother Untohim - again, thanks for your service on this forum.

Can we please keep this thread on the topic of the DCP?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untohim
Yes. What he say!
A portion of Defense and Confirmation Project - A PATTERN OF TWISTING

A FAITHFUL WORD
SERIES FIVE
In the Sleight of Men"
A
PATTERN
OF
TWISTING
(Part 2)
Book
2

© 2007 Defense and Confirmation Project
All rights reserved. No part of this work may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means—graphic, electronic, or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or information storage and retrieval systems—without permission from DCP.
1St printing, May 2007
2' printing, June 2007
Electronic printing, July 2007
Published by
Defense and Confirmation Project (DCP)
P. 0. Box 3217
Fullerton, CA 92834
DCP is a project to defend and confirm the New Testament ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the practice of the local churches.
Phil. 1:7 - Even as it is right for me to think this concerning you all because you have me in your heart, since both in my bonds and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel you are all fellow partakers with me of grace.
All verses and footnotes are from the Holy Bible Recovery Version, published by Living Stream Ministry. All books cited are publications of Living Stream Ministry and are from either The Collected Works of Watchman Nee or the published ministry of Witness Lee unless otherwise noted. Excerpts from the Recovery Version and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are copyrighted by Living Stream Ministry and are used by permission.
Unless otherwise indicated, the articles in this book are co-authored by Bill Buntain with Dan Sady and Dan Towle.
Boldface type has been used for emphasis in quoted passages and is not in the original quoted material unless otherwise noted.

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Preface 5
"Witness Lee Was the Acting God" -
What Did Ron Kangas Really Say? 7
Repenting for Offending the Body of Christ -
What Did Witness Lee Really Say? 21
Receive All the Churches and Then All the Believers—
What Did Benson Phillips Really Say? 33


Full exposition available upon request.

Harold-awareness
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Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless - Witness Lee.

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Old 04-11-2018, 11:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
As an outsider, Lee could have a proper perspective. It only takes a little leaven to ruin the dough, and once the leaven is in the dough you have to throw it out and make a new dough. So unless Horton renounces Presbyterianism he cannot solve the problem. Horton addresses the problem of Christ not being preached from the pulpit. This is only a bandage solution. He does not go deeper into why that is the case:

Presbyterianism preaches presbyterianism
Catholicism preaches catholicism
Lutheranism preaches Lutheranism
etc
LocalChurchism preaches Lee
Every meeting, every book, every time.
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
As an outsider, Lee could have a proper perspective. It only takes a little leaven to ruin the dough, and once the leaven is in the dough you have to throw it out and make a new dough. So unless Horton renounces Presbyterianism he cannot solve the problem. Horton addresses the problem of Christ not being preached from the pulpit. This is only a bandage solution. He does not go deeper into why that is the case:

Presbyterianism preaches presbyterianism
Catholicism preaches catholicism
Lutheranism preaches Lutheranism

etc

The Bible already gives the solution:

Rev 18:4 "Come away from her, my people
Bro EvanG, sometimes I'm not sure just whose side you are on. If you're with DCP they've hired the wrong fellow.

I've been saying, come away from her, for a long time ; come away from all denominationalism's, including Nee/Lee's.

And don't give me that, denominating is naming, bull-hockey. Quibbling is dodging. You know what I mean.
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Old 07-24-2018, 09:29 AM   #23
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It is an interesting site, that justifies its own existence not on scripture, but instead by the works of Watchman Nee.
"For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me" (Phil. 1:7)

"the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;" (Phil. 1:16)

The purpose of DCP's existence is listed on their home page: "DCP is a project to defend and confirm the New Testament ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the practice of the local churches. This Web site addresses controversies that have arisen while also demonstrating the invaluable contributions these two faithful servants of the Lord have made in the opening of Scripture."

It makes sense for DCP to take their stand on Phil. 1:7, 16 and defending specifically the ministry of Watchman Nee & Witness Lee since they regard that ministry as being the highest presentation of the Gospel.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:58 AM   #24
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"For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me" (Phil. 1:7)

"the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;" (Phil. 1:16)

The purpose of DCP's existence is listed on their home page: "DCP is a project to defend and confirm the New Testament ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the practice of the local churches. This Web site addresses controversies that have arisen while also demonstrating the invaluable contributions these two faithful servants of the Lord have made in the opening of Scripture."

It makes sense for DCP to take their stand on Phil. 1:7, 16 and defending specifically the ministry of Watchman Nee & Witness Lee since they regard that ministry as being the highest presentation of the Gospel.
And they "DEFEND and CONFIRM" Lee's ministry with intimidation, public shaming, lawsuits, backstabbing, quarantines, slander, libel, etc.

When Apostle Paul wrote these verses he never had these fleshly tactics in mind.
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