05-25-2018, 11:37 AM | #1 |
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Poor poor Christianity?
Christianity was invented because the Apocalypse did not come quickly as predicted.
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 Last edited by awareness; 05-31-2018 at 07:23 AM. |
05-25-2018, 01:35 PM | #2 |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
If the God of the Old Testament was invented, then everything that proceeds forward, including Christianity is a man-made invention. If Jesus Christ was not who he said he was, if he didn't come from where he said he came from, and if he did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is just another one of many mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world, simply riding on the coat-tails of still another ancient, invented, man-made religion.
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05-25-2018, 01:44 PM | #3 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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So now it's been only two days since Jesus went up to spend time with daddy. And if he wants to spend at least two weeks with daddy, he won't come back for another 12,000 years. Thanks whoever wrote II Peter.
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05-26-2018, 05:26 AM | #4 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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So, I'm not asserting that the God of the Old Testament or the claims of Jesus are inventions. Indeed, I'm not saying that Christianity was invented in the sense in which to invent can mean to deceive. Rather, I'm saying it was a human response to a problem of cognitive dissonance. Jesus did not return in glory during the lifetime of the first generation of believers as promised nor in subsequent generations. An explanation needed to be found, religious belief and practice needed to be modified and formalized, and a permanent structure of government needed to be instituted. The institution that evolved in place of the original Jesus movement is what I'm referring to as "Christianity" here.
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05-26-2018, 06:00 AM | #5 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-26-2018, 06:06 AM | #6 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Yet the original disciples were all dead, and the Lord still tarried. The notion that to God a day equals a thousand years and that the end was delayed to allow all people adequate time to repent attempted to rationalize this dilemma. Now we need to ask what the bases are for supposing that II Peter was of late origin and is pseudepigraphical. For this I submit the Wiki entry on II Peter as exhibit A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Peter
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05-26-2018, 06:08 AM | #7 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-26-2018, 08:32 AM | #8 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Your observation about LC taking a "New Testament model" is spot on. Of course Nee/Lee were not the first to make an attempt at "restoration" or "recovery", they are simply the ones we are most familiar with. -
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05-26-2018, 09:05 AM | #9 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-26-2018, 09:50 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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1. I think the first step in this "man made" Christianity in response to a lack of faith (my understanding of your term "cognitive dissonance" and it includes both misunderstanding of the word of God as well as lack of faith in following the Lord) is referred to Rev 2 when the Lord tells the church in Ephesus that "they have left their first love". I understand this expression to refer to the church becoming institutionalized with rules and doctrines that are not aligned with the Lord's speaking in the gospels. So I would disagree with the 1st Post, it wasn't a matter of the Lord not returning during the lifetime of the Apostles but rather the setting up of an organization that veered from the Lord's word in the Gospels. 2. The reason this "man made construct" would "overtake" the church is simply because it is an easier, broad road that leads to destruction. Easier to build with shoddy materials than with gold, and precious stones. I would argue that the church is God's masterpiece which He plans on unveiling at the Lord's second coming (fulfilling the whole marriage symbolism). So it is not so much "Christianity overtaking" but rather it is simply "fool's gold". A poor imitation of the real thing. 3. The assertion that Jesus promised to return in the lifetime of the apostles is not supported by scripture. First, no verse is of its own interpretation, so no doctrine of this promise should hang on a single verse. Second, the Lord said very clearly that "no one knew the day nor the hour" and this interpretation seems to fly in the face of that. Third, the gospel of John indicates that Jesus told Peter by what death he would die, indicating that Peter would not be alive at the time of the Lord's second coming. Therefore, even if there were some who did form Christianity because, as you say, the Lord had not come yet, that "prediction" was based on a poor human interpretation / opinion.
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05-26-2018, 01:42 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-26-2018, 03:16 PM | #12 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
I have added a little more to post #10 to tie it tighter to the 1st post.
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05-26-2018, 07:25 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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I think I understand . . . : 1. I think the first step in this "man made" Christianity in response to a lack of faith (my understanding of your term "cognitive dissonance" and it includes both misunderstanding of the word of God as well as lack of faith in following the Lord) is referred to Rev 2 when the Lord tells the church in Ephesus that "they have left their first love". . . . if you mean leaving the first love caused a man made replacement system. Also, the "day and the hour" has no effect on "this generation." Neither does Jesus predicting Peters death. This generation could include them. And finally, not one verse points to "this generation." Bro zeek listed three witnesses ; Mark, Matt., Luke (Not John ... something perchance we'll kick around up the road on this thread). But three witnesses are substantial for our surviving records.
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05-26-2018, 09:29 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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The early church grew and spread out, to that end. The intention was that the early church would spread across the world. Before that could happen, the church became institutionalized due to political reasons (the Catholic Church and Constantine). The goal of evangelizing the world was still happening but through the religious-political institution of the Catholic Church. Men such as St Patrick, St Augustine, are known for that. This was God's sovereignty to enable the Gospel to be preached via Catholicism and spread through Europe. The recovery does not say that all of these things should never happened and then try to re-write history. Rather it recognizes God's Sovereignty and moves through the ages and sees that it's at that time where the church should be preparing for Christ's return and leaving the old institutions which have fulfilled their purpose in history. The problem is not that these institutions existed or that Christianity became institutionalized, the problem is that people wish to remain in institutionalized Christianity which has served its purpose instead of of moving on. Even so, the recovery never says that the church will ever or must become the same situation as early Christianity, it is well known that denominations will still be around when Christ returns, it's in the bible. |
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05-26-2018, 09:41 PM | #15 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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The recovery is needed for this time before the Lord comes back, just as Luther was needed in his time. |
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05-27-2018, 04:17 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-27-2018, 04:38 AM | #17 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Witness Lee and Hal Lindsey thought it was the state of Israel. They were wrong. What else were/are they wrong about?
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05-27-2018, 04:49 AM | #18 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-27-2018, 05:09 AM | #19 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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I see the true Church continually needing to unload itself of "extras" or traditions that we seem to always accumulate over time. Practices always tend to be codified into ordinances which, though they were once helpful, have become legalistic bondages to successive generations. Hence the need to "return" to the pure word, dumping these leavens. The LCM began this way in the US. Actively returning to the word of God is a practice that brings blessing from God. Unfortunately and ironically Lee introduced far more baggage over time than most of us started with. Hence the cycle must be repeated.
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05-27-2018, 05:12 AM | #20 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Act 11:26* And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.*
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05-27-2018, 06:00 AM | #21 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-27-2018, 07:22 AM | #22 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
So we need to recover from The Recovery?
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So the early church -- the earliest of the earliest church -- was Holy Spirit animated. Methinks we sometimes get distracted by staring into a book, and that perchance is what brings us astray. According to the record, the earliest church was true because of the Spirit ... or that "pesky" Wind. Problem is that churchin' by the Spirit is like herding cats, cuz : "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." My point being : if we ever hope to recover the early church we're gonna have ta repeat Pentecost. But Paul writes to the Romans : "Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above* How do we recover the early church if we can't catch the Wind? I hate to say it but, the early church, if exists today, is literally blowing in The Wind ... or it is not ... but something else ... the something else we see today. Quote:
Maybe we go astray because we can't ascend into heaven to bring "that" down, and can't control "that Wind." Hey, didn't Jesus say, "I will build my church?"
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05-27-2018, 07:27 AM | #23 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Still, when was Antioch started?
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05-27-2018, 08:48 AM | #24 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-27-2018, 02:34 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I read the term "we" as referring to the believers collectively who are still alive, not specific to the people who first received this letter.
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05-27-2018, 03:11 PM | #26 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-27-2018, 04:51 PM | #27 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
The true religion established by Christ was called "the way". The Christianity that was started in the 2nd century adopted many pagan practices such as Easter. Hence the word "Catholic" means "the way plus paganism".
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05-27-2018, 05:57 PM | #28 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Quote:
Quote:
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05-27-2018, 06:27 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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On God's use of the Roman Empire (and the Roman Catholic Church) in spreading the gospel, quoting Lee: "The Lord used the Roman Empire to form and spread the gospel." On Satan's use of the Roman Empire (and the Roman Catholic Church) in persecuting believers: "Satan used the Roman Empire to persecute the church and to kill many believers" On the equivalence between the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church: "This indicates that the two - the Roman Empire and the Roman Church - are one". Lee speaks of both genuine and false believers in the Roman Catholic Church. "In every denomination, including the Roman Catholic Church, there are real, saved Christians. They are God’s people belonging to the Lord". We could say the same about the USA today because it is the revived Roman Empire: "The Lord used the USA to spread the gospel." "Satan used the USA to persecute the church" - an example is prevention of using the name of God or Jesus, or even the local churches being called a cult by the religious arm of the American Empire. |
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05-27-2018, 07:46 PM | #30 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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But since John came at the end of the first century, there was plenty of time for what by that time was called Christianity to stray. For example, we have three witnesses saying "this generation shall not pass away, and two witnesses, btw, Matthew & Luke that has Jesus saying "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom," yet no mention of either in John. Obviously, by the end of the 1st c., Christianity had to take another shape, other than expecting Jesus to come back and setup his kingdom. Jerusalem had been sacked for almost 30 years, and the Romans still occupied the holy land, and ruled over them. And Christianity was becoming a gentile movement, and therefore Hellenized. It couldn't be helped. Thus all the NT is in Koine Greek ... and John borrowed from the pagan Heraclitus of Ephesus (c. 535 – c. 475 BC) . When he could have used the OT, Proverbs 8, as his basis.
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05-27-2018, 09:59 PM | #31 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-28-2018, 02:40 AM | #32 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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So by and large what Witness Lee refers to as Christianity I'm now calling Church Christianity. At the heart of it is hierarchical power that flows down from Heaven to Earth from God the Father through his Son the mediator who in turn channels power through his designated representatives on Earth-- the clergy. Church Christianity aims to create a universal Christian Society and when necessary is willing to enter into alliance with political power to achieve this aim. The Lord's recovery movement, of course, came out of Biblical Christianity which was facilitated by the printing press. With the Bible as a supreme authority for life people no longer needed a priest Bishop Pope or theologian they could form their own community of saints living in conformity to God's word. You know all this, and I think what I'm saying here is essentially an agreement with what you have said above.
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05-28-2018, 03:52 AM | #33 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Antioch was the third largest city in the Roman Empire. It replaced Jerusalem as the center of the early Jesus movement. According to Acts a Christian Mission among the antiochian Jews began when refugees from persecution arrived after the martyrdom of Stephen [Acts 11:19]. In the centuries that followed Antioch became a great center of Christian learning. Ignatius who was martyred early in the second century CE was its third Bishop according to tradition. In speaking of the authority of the church Ignatius was the first to use the term "Catholic Church" in writing.
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05-28-2018, 04:24 AM | #34 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Kind of like saying the ground of locality means church plus Leeism.
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05-28-2018, 07:08 AM | #35 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-28-2018, 08:39 AM | #36 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Indeed, "had to" might be too strong. But by the end of the 1st c. (when John was written) can you imagine the disappointment they must have experienced because Jesus hadn't returned, hadn't driven out the Romans, and hadn't setup God's kingdom, like promised?
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But seriously, a lot had already changed since Jesus, by 325 CE. For one thing Paul happened. In Matthew (written after Paul's letters) Jesus tells the 12 "Go not into the way of the Gentiles..." But in Acts (also written after Paul's letters) Jesus is said to have called Paul to go to the gentiles. That was the birth of "Christian." So 'Christian' was a change. (Didn't it start out as a derogatory name, cuz Christ followers were considered atheists, that didn't honor the gods?) In our earliest accounts, by Paul, Paul was already seeing changes happening ; thus warnings about different gospels and different Jesus's (sp) ; and his troubles with Asia ; not to mention John, who was holding to the 'earliest' Jesus Jewish way. Changes were afoot early on. And changes went on, long before 325CE. For instance, Marcion of Sinope, early 2nd c.. He was a significant figure. He was excommunicated by the proto-orthodox, but he kicked off the development of the NT canon. That brings me back to the proto-orthodox. I've seen -- or been close enough to -- how devotees tend to get their masters all wrong. That to me is the proto-orthodox. I've haven't read all the early church fathers. But I've read enough to question if we should even listen to them at all. I seek to understand what was before them. In fact, my keen interest is in understanding what was before even Paul. The gospels don't get me there, completely. They were written too many decades after Jesus to convince me of the real Jesus, and what he actually taught and held to. Cuz I think, "Christianity," so called, changed from its purest form, the Jesus form, during the oral period ; pre any writings. Of course I can't document any of that. Cuz it was oral, and not written. Thanks for your thoughts Evan.
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05-28-2018, 11:03 AM | #37 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
The only thing that is very clear from this quote is that Paul "expected" that at the Lord's return some Christians would be dead and buried and some would be alive.
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05-28-2018, 12:49 PM | #38 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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1Co 15:52* In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.*
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05-29-2018, 04:42 AM | #39 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Suffice it to say, Witness Lee's view of Christianity was predominantly negative particularly as it pertains to Church Christianity as I have defined it below. To Lee the Recovery takes place mostly within Biblical Christianity as I have defined it. As far as using God's sovereignty to justify Christianity or anything else, it made be said that God is Sovereign over Satan and all the evil activity in the world. So if you want to include Christianity in that who can argue?
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05-29-2018, 05:07 AM | #40 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Unlike in the other gospels, Jesus does not deliver an apocalyptic discourse in John. The kingdom of God is entered by those who have faith in Jesus as in John 3:3. When Martha thinks Jesus is referring to the resurrection at the end of time in chapter 11 verse 23, Jesus corrects her. He is referring to himself as the Resurrection in the present. "Those who believe in me even though they die will live and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die [John 11:25-26.] Thus begins the shift of emphasis way from the general resurrection to the fate of the individual in the afterlife immediately upon death which is denied for the believer. This emphasis on the immediate afterlife is a prevalent characteristic of Church Christianity to this day. Biblical Christianity vacillates between apocalypticism and heaven when you die.
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05-29-2018, 08:24 PM | #41 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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You mention that God is sovereign in doing this. Evangelical made the same point. Is there anything that God is not sovereign over in the universe? Then you're back to your favorite principal ''ruling and reigning' as justification for the delay. How has humanity matured over the past 2000 years when the human lifespan hasn't gotten appreciably longer. But who knows maybe you can make a speculative case using Steven Pinker's statistics and analysis. Any way, you address the collective "we" as far as being alive and remaining. But you ignore the fact that Paul told the Corinthians that they were those upon whom the end of the world had come and that they would not all sleep. The collective "we" doesn't work in that context. You also ignore Paul's statements that the appointed time has grown short and that the present form of this world is passing away in 1st Corinthians 7.
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05-29-2018, 08:42 PM | #42 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
You are of course aware that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; it can only be transformed from one form to another. Therefore that which was Paul exists somewhere in some form or another. Would Resurrection be difficult for the omnipotent, omniscient God who created the universe? Just asking.
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05-29-2018, 08:54 PM | #43 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
In Matthew 13 the parable of the wheat in the tares the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his fields, but the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat while he slept. It seems like the tares may have been sown during the New Testament period.
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05-30-2018, 01:15 AM | #44 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Starting with Judas, yes.
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05-30-2018, 05:10 AM | #45 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-30-2018, 05:33 AM | #46 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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As far as your use of the term "we" to refer " all of us Christians in this age that began with the resurrection", it doesn't work in all cases. In particular, as I already said, it doesn't work in 1st Corinthians 7 where Paul tells the brothers and sisters that "the appointed time has grown short and now let even those who have wives be as though they have none and those who mourn as those they were not morning and those who rejoice as though they were rejoicing and those who buy as though they have no possessions and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it for the present form of this world is passing away." Because "the appointed time" had not grown short and the present form of the world was not passing away.
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05-30-2018, 05:38 AM | #47 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-30-2018, 05:39 AM | #48 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Does this televangelist really need a fourth $54 million private jet?
How do you define "poor"?
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05-30-2018, 06:03 AM | #49 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
I should have put "poor poor" in quotes when I started to thread. I was really just referencing the other "poor poor Christianity" thread on the main forum where it's a quotation of Witness Lee. Witness Lee seemed to mean that Christianity was poor compared to the Lord's Recovery which through his ministry had recovered the "unsearchable riches of Christ."
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05-30-2018, 06:09 AM | #50 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Evangelical accused me of being too objective. I'm just trying to get at the facts, man.
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
05-30-2018, 06:19 AM | #51 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Quote:
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05-30-2018, 06:39 AM | #52 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Here's another verse for you to explain if you wish to deny the OP proposition:
"Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."By the way, not only did the Son of Man not come as predicted in Daniel, the disciples were not persecuted so that they had to flee from one city to another.
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05-30-2018, 06:50 AM | #53 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
He who planted [I Cor 3:6] became a plant?
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
05-30-2018, 06:56 AM | #54 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Well maybe. But it happened in the kingdom of heaven.
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05-30-2018, 06:58 AM | #55 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Which was sown on the earth.
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
05-30-2018, 07:05 AM | #56 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
You knew them?
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05-30-2018, 07:11 AM | #57 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Jesus said he spoke in parables so that people wouldn't understand. Are you able to understand them? The parable opens with "The kingdom of heaven is likened to." Nothing about the earth.
But I think I get your point. That Christianity went south back in the NT age. If Jesus was the good seed, was Paul a tare?
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05-30-2018, 07:15 AM | #58 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Paul became vegetables ... and lived on in vegans. So it's really gonna be confusing to resurrect everybody. Actually, upon thinking about it, Paul did resurrect, into plants. He became immortal.
In that regard, the energy regard, we're all immortal. I'm wheat. Everyone else are tares.
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05-30-2018, 08:07 AM | #59 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Quote:
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05-30-2018, 08:16 AM | #60 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-30-2018, 09:05 AM | #61 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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As a personal observation, I have witnessed a great move in modern Church in general, and in Protestantism specifically, of a turning away from "institutional" Christianity. It's rather hard to define this as a "movement" because it has taken it's form or made it's influence in so many different arenas of the Christian church. All the way from the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and the Jesus Movement, to the resurgence of a decidedly creedal/reformed form of teaching/practice/worship. Much to the chagrin of our dear Local Church brothers and sisters, God has apparently chosen to do a "recovery" among those in "poor, poor Christianity" after all. -
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05-30-2018, 09:10 AM | #62 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
The local church will also have a revival, when they find the new MOTA.
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05-30-2018, 09:37 AM | #63 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
But no man knoweth the day or the hour right?
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05-30-2018, 10:00 AM | #64 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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This is a great quote to disprove the idea that the NT teaches the Lord was going to come in the lifetime of the apostles.
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05-30-2018, 10:01 AM | #65 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
I read about them, and Peter also reminded me of them and warned that these type of mockers would show up again at the end of the age.
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05-30-2018, 11:47 AM | #66 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
And as in the days of Noah means the Nephilim will reappear.
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05-30-2018, 12:14 PM | #67 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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And yes Paul strayed from the Jesus form of "Christianity." Early Christianity was Jewish, like Jesus and the disciples. Paul brought the gentiles in, and even said to the Romans that, "they [Jews] are enemies of the gospel." And even claimed a mystery, that, a hardening came upon them [Jews], until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. My goodness, the full number hasn't come in yet? How much do they need to change Christianity to be full? they clearly squashed out the Jewishness of Christianity. I guess the question is, did they make Christianity poor, poor? From the looks of it, they did.
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05-30-2018, 12:22 PM | #68 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Paul said a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart and in the spirit.
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05-30-2018, 01:13 PM | #69 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
That would be "it is the days of Noah" not "as in the days of Noah". Jesus said specifically what elements would be similar between the days of Noah and the end of the age. None of those elements involved the Nephilim.
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05-30-2018, 02:18 PM | #70 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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It's true that Church Christianity got squeezed through much of the 20th century. The mainline churches were criticized by the more conservative Christians as being too worldly on one side and by secular society for being too religious on the other. As a result their numbers declined. I agree with you that there have been vibrant recent developments in Biblical Christianity which Witness Lee's group missed out on because of their centralized top-down authoritarian system.
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05-30-2018, 03:02 PM | #71 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-30-2018, 03:08 PM | #72 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Are you saying there were no Nephilim in the days of Noah?
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05-30-2018, 03:11 PM | #73 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Quote:
Quote:
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05-30-2018, 06:10 PM | #74 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, [o]neither the Son, but the Father only. 37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
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05-30-2018, 06:17 PM | #75 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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The most compelling position, in this writer’s judgment, is that argued by numerous respectable scholars (e.g., J.W. McGarvey, Albert Barnes, F.F. Bruce, D.A. Carson, R.C.H. Lenski, Theodor Zahn, W.W. How, J. Barton Payne, etc.), namely that the “coming” event of Matthew 10:23 is the Roman invasion of Palestine, which occurred in A.D. 66-70.The following factors lend their weight to this view. First, divine punishments are commonly referred to in the Bible as a “coming.” (1) When Jehovah providentially sent the Babylonians to ravage the southern kingdom of Judah, Isaiah depicted the event as an invasion of the Lord himself (Isa. 13:2-5). (2) Christ warned the erring churches of Ephesus and Pergamum that if they did not mend their rebellious ways, he would “come” and bring punishment upon them (Rev. 2:5, 16). (3) God warned the Jews that he would send “his armies” to destroy those who murdered his Son, and cause their city to be burned (Mt. 22:7); this was to be accomplished by the Roman invasion.And it was represented as a “coming” of the Son of man in power and great glory (Mt. 24:30, 34; cf. Lk. 21:27, 32).For further consideration of this matter, see: “A Study of Matthew Twenty-Four”, elsewhere on this site. Second, this event fits the “urgency” factor precisely.When the disciples were rejected by the Jews as they proclaimed the gospel, they were to flee from city to city in view of the coming destruction upon this dreadfully hateful nation.Even at that, they would not reach every city in Israel before the Roman “judgment” descended. Third, there is the parallel evidence supporting this view.When one compares material from Matthew 10, with that found in Luke 21, it becomes apparent that, while the occasions are different, the same general theme is strikingly similar; there are unmistakably common elements in the Savior’s two warnings.
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05-30-2018, 07:16 PM | #76 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Gen 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them."
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05-30-2018, 08:10 PM | #77 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-31-2018, 04:42 AM | #78 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Except it doesn't. He never says "coming with the clouds of heaven". All those harping about this verse like to believe the NT and the Lord Jesus are little simpletons who have a vocabulary of 3 words. He said "coming" so it must be the "coming with the clouds of heaven" and not the coming with the Armies of Rome.
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05-31-2018, 04:45 AM | #79 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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05-31-2018, 04:58 AM | #80 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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When Israel was against the Lord He let them know it would be their destruction and He warned his disciples they wouldn't be able to fully evangelize the nation before they got spread to the four winds in the diaspora. 10 Where now is thy king, that he may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges, of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? This is what they said when they said that Cesar was their king. 11 I have given thee a king in mine anger, and have taken him away in my wrath. 12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is laid up in store. 13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for it is time he should not tarry in the place of the breaking forth of children. 14 I will ransom them from the power of Sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, where are thy plagues? O Sheol, where is thy destruction? repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. The Lord's crucifixion was a ransom from Sheol, from death. They had a chance to receive the Lord's ransom, but repentance was hid from their eyes. That is what the Lord is saying when He says you will not be able to go through all the cities till this judgement comes. 15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the breath of Jehovah coming up from the wilderness; and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall make spoil of the treasure of all goodly vessels. 16 Samaria shall bear her guilt; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. When they demanded the crucifixion of Jesus they rebelled against God. That sealed their judgement. When the Romans came their "spring became dry" and their "treasure was spoiled". The Lord is simply reiterating this prophecy in Hosea. As He said earlier, every jot and tittle will be fulfilled. Matt 10:23 is not referring to Daniel but to Hosea 13:9-16. The breath of Jehovah is the Son of Man.
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05-31-2018, 06:46 AM | #81 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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He wasn't omniscient. He admitted that he didn't know the day and the hour. What else did he not know? After 2000 years, he clearly also didn't know the generation. And II Peter didn't help with his a thousand years is as a day thingie. Calculating the lineage in the gospel called Matthew, Biblically speaking, a generation is around 43 years. 43 years times 365 days equals 15,695 days. According to whoever wrote II Peter that means 15,695 years. Thanks "Peter," but you didn't solve the "this generation problem." You made it worse.
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05-31-2018, 06:56 AM | #82 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The teaching that you espouse-- that the entire nation of Israel was held responsible for the sins of a few Jews in Jerusalem who colluded in the arrest and judgment against Jesus that led to his execution-- has been used to justify anti-Semitism and genocide against the Jews for centuries. That is indeed an element of the dark side of Christianity
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05-31-2018, 07:24 AM | #83 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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There are numerous prophesies concerning the coming of the Son of Man, the coming of the Lord, the Coming of Jehovah, the coming of the breath of Jehovah. It is very obvious that they are not all referring to the same coming. If they were why would He say "coming with the clouds" if not to distinguish this coming from the coming that is not with the clouds?
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05-31-2018, 07:37 AM | #84 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Good try. My post was a quote from quite a few Bible scholars. It is standard Bible commentary on these verses.
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05-31-2018, 07:47 AM | #85 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?????????????????
Quote:
And when Jesus mentioned "coming" maybe he meant he'd show up the next day ... maybe "coming again" to the sea of Galilee ... on a clear day, with no clouds. See what that torture rack can accomplish?
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05-31-2018, 09:58 AM | #86 | |
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Re: Poor poor Atheists
Quote:
But what does defy many, many verses, what does require extreme myopic vision and contortionism is to suggest Jesus would return to Israel before their redemption. Let's talk about the "torture rack" you are putting the Bible on. Why would anyone say "it is the red volkswagen" if you are talking about the only car in parking lot? The fact that you are giving terms like "red" and "volkswagen" suggest there are other cars. Likewise "coming with the clouds" would be completely redundant if there were only one coming. But there isn't, there are many comings of the Lord, coming judgements, coming blessings. It takes someone with a Phd in torture, someone who can cram 20 people into a volkswagen bug, to cram every coming into the Lord's coming in the clouds. But I understand why they would do it. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". If your agenda is to discredit the Lord of All you have to. Otherwise the alternative is to admit he could see the coming Roman invasion. He knew the time frame and he knew how long it would take his disciples to preach the gospel of redemption in Israel. Here are some significant points of comparison [between Matt 10 and Luke 21]. (1) Both texts warn of an impending time of terrible persecution for the Lord’s disciples (Mt. 10:16; Lk. 21:12). (2) Both passages affirm that persecution will come from the Jewish leaders, who will beat the Lord’s followers, even in their synagogues (Mt. 10:17; Lk. 21:12). (3) Both texts declare that the disciples would be brought before governors and kings for the Savior’s sake (Mt. 10:18; Lk. 21:12). (4) Both sections affirm that the disciples’ courage under persecution would turn out to be a compelling “testimony” in the interests of others (Mt. 10:18; Lk. 21:13). (5) Both contexts declare that when the disciples are called upon to defend their case, they are not to be anxious about responding. Indeed, they are not to even think about preparation, for the appropriate words will be given to them by the Holy Spirit at the needed hour (Mt. 10:19-20; Lk. 21:14-15). (6) Both texts warn that the coming crisis will be so great that even family members will yield to the temptation of delivering their loved ones over to the persecuting authorities (Mt. 10:21; Lk. 21:16). (7) Both segments announce that the disciples will be hated by all men on account of Jesus’ sake (Mt. 10:22; Lk. 21:17). (8) Both passages encourage endurance or patience, for deliverance will come eventually; there will be a “saving” or “redemption” for the Lord’s faithful (Mt. 10:22; Lk. 21:19). (9) Both sections encourage the disciples that when the danger becomes life-threatening, they are to take flight (Mt. 10:23; Lk. 21:21f). With these obvious parallels in mind, we now are ready to focus upon Matthew’s mysterious phrase, “till the Son of man comes” (10:23).The conscientious student asks: “What is the most likely meaning of this obscure phrase?”Luke’s conclusion is perfectly clear (and quite analogous to Matthew 24); Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies (the Romans) that will desolate the once-sacred city.Many Hebrews will fall by the sword; others will be taken captive.The revered city will be trodden down permanently (Lk. 21:20ff).There is no question.The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 is clearly the focus of this text. In conclusion, let us remind ourselves of this well-known principle of biblical interpretation.When there are Scripture texts that treat the same general theme, and yet one passage is more obscure than the other, the more enigmatic text always is to be interpreted in the light of the clearer. If we apply this principle to the situation at hand, it is reasonable to conclude that the phrase “till the Son of man comes” represents a “judgment” coming of the Savior upon the nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem.It was a just punishment for their culminating act rebellion in rejecting their Messiah, the Son of God.
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05-31-2018, 10:49 AM | #87 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
.
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05-31-2018, 11:21 AM | #88 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
The South represented less than 40% of US population, therefore when looking at the US as a whole only 2% of whites represented Southern Plantation owners with a lot of slaves. But, there was still guilt to go around and our "redemption" took place during the Civil War. It seems outrageous to me that a person in your family could die fighting to free slaves and people are still claiming guilt and shame. The civil War was very expensive in both lives and money and it was undeniably fought to free slaves. Yes, both sides tried to deny it initially because Northerners were more interested in "preserving the union" and Southerners were not interested in helping the 5% but rather were fighting to protect their freedom. The hypocrisy of the South was on display because they soon took away all of the rights of the citizens to prosecute the war, proving that it was not about individual rights but rather they would pay any cost to keep their slaves.
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05-31-2018, 11:24 AM | #89 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Nor do I justify the anti semitism prior to WWII because the Jews are God's people, what happens between them and God is their business, not mine. Finally, since my Mother is probably of Jewish descent I think it is absurd to be anti Jewish (My great grandfather on my Mom's side escaped from a Turkish slave ship, changed his name and fled to MO. Our best guess is that he was Jewish and probably had to kill someone to escape, hence the change of name and the hiding out in the midwest).
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05-31-2018, 12:11 PM | #90 | |
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Re: Poor poor ZNP
Quote:
And I'm suppose to love that God? John, or whoever, got it wrong when he said "God is love." He's more a God of fear. But thanks for another example of putting the Bible on a torture rack, by linking verses in Matthew to Hosea ; a book comparing Israel’s abandonment of Yahweh to a woman being unfaithful to her husband, saying Israel abandoned the law, and about the fall of Israel in the 8th c. BC. By dragging that book into the siege of Jerusalem in the 1st c. AD. you've provided a quintessential example of putting the Bible on a torture rack, to make it say what you want it to say.
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05-31-2018, 12:46 PM | #91 | |
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Re: Poor poor Atheists
Quote:
There is an excellent comparison between Matt 10 and Luke 21, (1) Both texts warn of an impending time of terrible persecution for the Lord’s disciples (Mt. 10:16; Lk. 21:12). (2) Both passages affirm that persecution will come from the Jewish leaders, who will beat the Lord’s followers, even in their synagogues (Mt. 10:17; Lk. 21:12). (3) Both texts declare that the disciples would be brought before governors and kings for the Savior’s sake (Mt. 10:18; Lk. 21:12). (4) Both sections affirm that the disciples’ courage under persecution would turn out to be a compelling “testimony” in the interests of others (Mt. 10:18; Lk. 21:13). (5) Both contexts declare that when the disciples are called upon to defend their case, they are not to be anxious about responding. Indeed, they are not to even think about preparation, for the appropriate words will be given to them by the Holy Spirit at the needed hour (Mt. 10:19-20; Lk. 21:14-15). (6) Both texts warn that the coming crisis will be so great that even family members will yield to the temptation of delivering their loved ones over to the persecuting authorities (Mt. 10:21; Lk. 21:16). (7) Both segments announce that the disciples will be hated by all men on account of Jesus’ sake (Mt. 10:22; Lk. 21:17). (8) Both passages encourage endurance or patience, for deliverance will come eventually; there will be a “saving” or “redemption” for the Lord’s faithful (Mt. 10:22; Lk. 21:19). (9) Both sections encourage the disciples that when the danger becomes life-threatening, they are to take flight (Mt. 10:23; Lk. 21:21f). Anyone who compares these two passages would see far better agreement than the fig leaf you are trying to wrap around your poor interpretation. If you do compare these two you have no choice but to agree that this refers to armies surrounding Jerusalem after the Lord's crucifixion. There is nothing honest in your interpretation, it is simply someone desperate to cling to some little thread that proves his theory, rather than someone who is unbiased and looking reasonably at the facts.
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05-31-2018, 12:54 PM | #92 | |
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Re: Poor poor Atheists
Quote:
That is what captains do, they steer ships. If you pick a self serving captain who is clueless about the dangers but is only good at lying then you have no one but yourself to blame when your ship ends up on the rocks. Now if God had not warned them ahead of time that might be a cause of being upset, but He did warn them. If Jesus had not reminded them when they rejected Him of the perils one might still find fault, but Jesus did remind them. If God did not honor their free will in either choosing or rejecting Jesus you might still find fault, but God did honor their free will. Instead nothing but hypocrisy and the ugliness of someone not willing to be accountable for their own actions.
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05-31-2018, 01:07 PM | #93 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I would never take the blame for anything the Democrats have done!
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05-31-2018, 01:20 PM | #94 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Only the most radical Republicans were for emancipation prior to the war. As more and more people were killed many of the Northerners supported emancipation as a way to punish the South. Emancipation was also seen as a strategic way to weaken the South's ability to fight. So I would not give the moral high ground to the Republicans.
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05-31-2018, 06:36 PM | #95 | |
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Re: Poor poor ZNP
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05-31-2018, 07:13 PM | #96 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Obama, Hillary, and the democrats killed Jesus. And today they're coming in the clouds.
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05-31-2018, 07:33 PM | #97 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Paul tells the Romans :
"The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." Did that happen? Was that when Constantine made Rome the state religion? Relatively, that's soon.
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05-31-2018, 07:59 PM | #98 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Featured Post maybe?
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05-31-2018, 08:02 PM | #99 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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You have been trained well.
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06-01-2018, 04:53 AM | #100 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I like to know the facts in history, it helps me sort out the present. The North wanted to pretend the Civil War was about "preserving the Union" and not about ending slavery. The South wanted to pretend the war was about "State's rights" and not about protecting slavery. But when push came to shove the South had a federal draft (contrary to their claim of State's rights and liberty), they forced a tax down everyone's throat, they made people use their paper money which they then inflated, another tax. Likewise, in the North when they couldn't win a victory for the first two years they began to see that freeing slaves could help them in the war effort. But they didn't emancipate them, they simply said that runaway slaves would not be returned. Only later after atrocities against black soldiers and the realization that having runaway slaves in limbo was not conducive to their goals did they realize they needed to emancipate the slaves. Remember, the Gettysburg address was not a campaign speech, it took place 2 years into the war.
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06-01-2018, 05:08 AM | #101 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Matthew 10:23 doesn't say anything about the coming of Jehovah or the breath of Jehovah. It's true that Jesus does not mention the clouds of heaven in Matthew 10:23. But he doesn't mention them in Matthew 13 41 either. There he says " the son of man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness." Do you suppose he's talking about the Roman army there? In Matthew 16:27 he says "for the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels and then he will reward each according to his works". No mention of clouds there either. In the following verse Jesus says "Assuredly I say to you there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom. Still no clouds. So it's well established that Jesus can refer to the coming of the son of man to establish his kingdom without reference to clouds.
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06-01-2018, 05:21 AM | #102 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
If you're saying that it's wrong to hold all Jews responsible for the collusion of a few Jews with the Romans in the execution of Jesus circa 30 AD, then we agree.
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06-01-2018, 05:56 AM | #103 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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In my view the fall of Jerusalem was a foretaste of the end of this age. It begins and ends with this. So without a doubt I think there are some interesting correlations with this the fall of Jerusalem after the crucifixion and then the end of the Age and Armageddon. In Matt 24 Jesus said: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.. Now this to my understanding clearly refutes your interpretation. He tells them that they won't finish preaching in Israel before the coming of the Son of Man, and here he says that the gospel will be preached to the whole world and all the nations before the end comes. Same book, same author, both attributed to Jesus. Your interpretation is based on a single verse and doesn't even look slightly further which is why I say it is myopic. I could go on, but no point, you haven't responded to anything I have said yet.
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06-01-2018, 07:31 AM | #104 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I haven't accused you of anti-semitism, so there is no need to defend yourself against such charge here. That said your argument that you're not an anti-semite because you may have Jewish descendants reminds me of the "friend" argument e.g. "some of my best friends are Jews". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGdwfykYGY
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06-01-2018, 07:39 AM | #105 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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If the sacking of the temple was the fulfillment of prophecy, then why isn't it spelled out?
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06-01-2018, 07:46 AM | #106 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-01-2018, 07:48 AM | #107 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Are you referring to historical accounts like Josephus? Now I have seen numerous pictures of the Temple mount and there is "no stone left upon the other" if you are talking about the Temple. All they have left is the wailing wall which was part of the complex but not the actual temple.
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06-01-2018, 08:06 AM | #108 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
Good catch, of a vaticinium ex eventu.
Quote:
Mar 13:2* And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
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06-01-2018, 11:48 AM | #109 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
What are you talking about? I can get multiple references to Titus destruction of Jerusalem and the Roman Senate commemorating that destruction with an Arch which was built in AD 81.
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06-01-2018, 05:59 PM | #110 | |
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Re: Poor poor Atheists
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First let's take a look at what I actually said. I quoted Matthew 10:23 which says " when they persecute you in this city flee to another for assuredly I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes." I said not only did the son of man not come as predicted in Daniel the disciples were not persecuted so that they had to flee from one city to the other. I was taking implicit note of the fact that Jesus was speaking to his 12 disciples upon sending them to minister throughout Galilee. I was interpreting the passage literally. You asserted that the verse referred to going through every city on earth. I corrected you and said it referred only to the cities of Israel. At that point you brought in the respected scholars. In the passage you quoted they interpreted the coming of the son of man as referring to God sending the Roman armies to invade Palestine. Yet they provided no explanation for why Jesus used the expression son of man in this verse. It's an expression that Jesus uses 32 times in the Book of Matthew. I noted that Jesus' use of the term the son of man comes in Matthew 10:23 matches Daniel 7:13 that says and behold one like the son of man coming with the Clouds Of Heaven. You said that it didn't correspond with that I pointed to other verses in Matthew where are Jesus uses the term son of man referring to the coming Kingdom and does not mention clouds. I don't see anywhere where I'm torturing the verse to make it say what I want it to say. And I don't know how you can possibly contend that the verse which mentions the son of man in Daniel "bears almost no relation" to Jesus' use of the son of man in Matthew. Now you wish to compare Matthew 10 with Luke 21. I do see similarities between the two passages. But Luke 21 culminates in the coming of the son of man in a cloud with power and great Glory. Jesus was speaking publicly in the temple. This passage also seems to support the conclusion that Jesus expected the coming of the son of man to those people. The surrounding armies were supposed to be a sign that desolation was near. Jesus said that that sign comes before the coming of the son of man in a cloud with power and great glory. Jesus told them that when these things happened they should look up and lift up their heads. What were they going to see when they looked up? The Roman army? I don't think so. I think Jesus expected them to see the son of man coming on the clouds when they looked up. He even said when those things happen their redemption was drawing near. Doesn't that refer to the redemption of their bodies-- their transfiguration at the coming of the son of man? The Roman army wasn't going to redeem them was it?
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06-01-2018, 06:31 PM | #111 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
That's nice but it's irrelevant. And the "friend argument' e.g. "I can't be a jew-hater because some of my best friends are Jews or my family members are Jews", is fallacious. It's based on the presupposition that if you're close to someone you can't wish to do them harm which is false. People murder friends and family members every day.
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06-01-2018, 06:45 PM | #112 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
If people reject Christianity the way Witness Lee did it would make more sense if they didn't call themselves Christians which is obviously the root of the word. They could recover the word Nazratim or, as it is usually translated Nazarene, the name the followers of Jesus were called in Jerusalem according to Acts 24:5.
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06-01-2018, 07:42 PM | #113 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
In response to post #110.
Matt 10:23 refers to the coming of the Son of Man before the apostles are able to go through the cities of Israel preaching the gospel. The sense I get from this chapter is that the Lord is telling the apostles to be urgent because they will run out of time. All the commentaries on this passage see this expression "the coming of the Son of Man" as a point that needs quite a bit of consideration. Obviously you are immediately reminded of the Lord Jesus coming in the Clouds at the end of the age. However, in Matt 24 the Lord is very clear that many things will happen and "the end is not yet" and He also tells us that we will preach the gospel throughout the entire world and to all the nations and then the end will come. It is an erroneous practice to interpret the Bible based on a single verse. So, you have to reconcile both Matt 10 which is very clear that the apostles will run out of time prior to the "coming of the Son of Man" and will not be able to go through all the cities of Israel before that point. And on the other hand there will be wars, rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and this is only the beginning of tribulation, the end is not yet. Instead, this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the entire world and to all the nations. Only then will "the end come". There is no suggestion in Matt 24 that it will be the apostles preaching to all the nations, rather it is "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached". So regardless of how appealing it is to suggest that Matt 10 is referring to "the end of the age" we know it isn't. Instead if we look at Luke 21 there is a very strong correlation between these two portions that suggest it is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This destruction of the temple is also spelled out in Matt 24. This also corresponds with the historical record. During the ministry of the apostles the Jews were scattered abroad, both Peter and James refer to this. So then Matt 10, Matt 24, Luke 21, and the historical record all fit very nicely together leaving us one last question. What does this term "the coming of the Son of Man" refer to? In my opinion Hosea 13 is instructive here. v.5 "besides me there is no savior" however Israel has forgotten Him. v. 9 "it is thy destruction O Israel that you are against Me, your help". They rejected Jesus as savior, and that is to their destruction. He reminds us that He gave us King Saul in His anger and then took him away in His wrath. Israel's rejecting God and demanding to have a king set over them was a prefigure of their rejection of Jesus Christ as their savior and king. v. 14 "I will ransom them from the power of Sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, where are thy plagues? O Sheol, where is thy destruction?" This is the redemptive work of Jesus, only He can save them, and yet they rejected this and chose "Cesar to be their king". And Hosea says "the sorrows of a travailing woman will come upon him, he is an unwise son". Finally an "east wind will come". If you live in Israel and east wind would be coming from across the Middle East, a hot, dry wind, a drought. We saw this, Israel as a nation dried up. "the breath of Jehovah coming up from the wilderness" that this will be the judgement of God because they rebelled. The conclusion of this chapter in Hosea is clearly referring to an army destroying the land "fall by the sword", "ripped up" and "dashed in pieces". I think this prophecy is very well aligned to this period in time from the Lord's crucifixion to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Therefore "The breath of Jehovah coming up" would be equivalent to "the coming of the Son of Man".
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06-01-2018, 08:07 PM | #114 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-01-2018, 08:56 PM | #115 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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So you'd think it would be remarked about in New Testament accounts. For instance, John was written 25 years after the sacking, surely the authors knew about it. So why isn't it written about at least in some detail? Another instance : Matthew, the only gospel that mentions it, have the Jews saying, "his blood be on us and our children." Shouldn't Matthew have mentioned the sacking of the temple -- it meant that his blood was upon them -- that deserved at least some detailed account -- at least something clearly stated about it fulfilling Jesus' prophecy? But okay, we can't expect the New Testament to be a historical type document. But still. The sacking of the temple and Jerusalem was a very big deal. And completely on topic to the story of Jesus. Plus, it could have been stated clearly that it was the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. That it was the 'blood curse.' It wasn't. So we, including you, are left extrapolating. Don't you think? If not, I guess I/we will now suffer a ton of your extrapolations ... in a long numbered list.
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06-02-2018, 05:28 AM | #116 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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06-02-2018, 05:35 AM | #117 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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This is in Matt 24, at the end of the chapter, after the following things: 1. Temple is destroyed, not one stone left upon another. 2. Many false Christ’s coming in Jesus name 3. Wars and rumors of war, nation rise against nation, Kingdom against kingdom 4. Famines and earthquakes in diverse places 5. Delivered up and persecuted and “hated of all nations”. You cannot claim that Israel’s persecution of Peter, Paul and the apostles fulfills “hated of all nations”. 6. Many false prophets shall arise 7. Finally, “when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy Place” — so not only is the temple completely destroyed it must also be completely rebuilt. 8. That sun shall be darkened 9. The stars shall fall from heaven So how could anyone teach that the book of Matthew taught Jesus prophesied that His second coming would take place during the lifetime of the apostles? Instead Jesus said many false prophets and many false Christ's would come teaching stuff to confuse the elect.
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06-02-2018, 05:43 AM | #118 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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Paul's ministry was not to the Jews but the gentiles, why should he talk about it other than his calling for an offering to bring to the saints in Jerusalem? James and Peter are not interested in preserving the Jewish religion, their interest is in ministering to the suffering saints who are of the circumcision. What do you want them to say "ha, ha, we were right!" Do you even know what spirit you are?
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06-02-2018, 05:57 AM | #119 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Instead I would say that Jesus prophesied that Christianity would be invented when He warned of "many false Christ's" and "many false prophets". All believers are "anointed" which is the meaning of Christ. It is common in Christianity to refer to "the anointed man of God" referring to some Christian leader. I do not understand why people assume a false Christ or false prophet has to be a mass murderer like Charles Manson, or a cult leader like David Koresh, of a suicidal maniac like Jim Jones. The NT never gives this as a prerequisite. We hear repeatedly of Christians "returning to the pure word of God" -- that implies they were led astray by something other than the fellowship of the Apostles, i.e. a false prophet or false Christ. So I would change the first post to: "Jesus prophesied that Christianity would be invented in Matt 24, referring to these Christian leaders as 'false prophets' and 'false prophets' and saying that they would lead many astray."
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06-02-2018, 07:05 AM | #120 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-02-2018, 08:42 AM | #121 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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And what does it have to do with Christianity? Oh I don't know. I guess, according to the NT, it had very little at all to do with Christianity... back then ... to NT authors. But it has everything to do with Bible believing Christians today. Did you know that Israel was founded as a state? And that they've taken Jerusalem back, and the temple mount, just recently? Maybe you are like Paul. He wrote before the sacking. Even in his pseudepigraphal 2 Thess, it speaks of the son of perdition sitting in the existing temple, exalting himself as God, in the temple that stood in Paul's day. Paul didn't relate Jesus' prophecy to the sacking of the temple. The temple hadn't yet been sacked. But these verses in 2 Thess, concerning the existing standing temple, are now very important to Bible believers, particularly of the prophecy sort ; who think that they now today relate to the soon coming 3rd temple, cuz it signals Jesus is on his way in the clouds real soon. Other than that, it has nothing to do with Christianity. In fact, I wish today's Christians thought like the NT authors - minus the extrapolations. But not like the pseudepigrapha 2 Thessalonians. Thanks for asking. And bro zeek, you should be proud of me. Thanks to you I'm learning better than to just bust out with my infamous, "Bahahahahaha."
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06-02-2018, 09:17 AM | #122 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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I tend to agree.
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06-02-2018, 10:34 AM | #123 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Personally I think all of this is absurd. We have historians putting out accounts of WWII 60-70 years after the fact, but based on the documents that were created at the time. The fact that the gospel wasn't widely disseminated prior to a certain point is not evidence of anything. How long did it take John Meyers to write his book?
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06-02-2018, 11:08 AM | #124 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Did you mean John Myer?
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06-02-2018, 01:01 PM | #125 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-02-2018, 03:11 PM | #126 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-02-2018, 03:53 PM | #127 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity
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06-02-2018, 05:39 PM | #128 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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None of the Gospels are not written in the first person singular voice as a witness testifying directly to what he has seen and heard. All four of them keep their identities anonymous, something you wouldn't expect if they were apostles whom Jesus had personally chosen and sent. According to the Gospels the disciples were mostly uneducated peasants from Galilee. Acts 4:13 says Peter and John were uneducated and untrained men. The gospels as literary documents reflect higher education and for the most part correct Greek grammar. Jesus and his Apostles appear to have spoken Aramaic. The author of Luke explicitly tells us that he used oral and written sources for his narrative and claims that some of these sources were drawn from eyewitnesses. The others seem to have done the same. The Gospel of Matthew also appears to rely on the Gospel of Mark as source material, something you wouldn't expect the author to do if he were an eye witness himself. The Gospel of John is so markedly different from the other three synoptic gospels that when the accounts conflict John is often thought to adhere less to historical fact.
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06-02-2018, 05:44 PM | #129 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-02-2018, 05:56 PM | #130 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-02-2018, 07:05 PM | #131 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Since back then there's been way more nations discovered. So thinking that all the nations back then applies to all the nations today is nonsense, only believed in by blind fanatic prophecy believers, thinking that Jesus knew about all the nations known today. But we know that Jesus wasn't omniscient. Not only did he not know the day and the hour, he also didn't know that the world was round, not the center of the universe, and included hundreds of nations, not known back then. He was wrong on all accounts. But because of it, Christianity has dragged that prophecy along thru all the advances of knowledge, of the world and universe. I guess some things about Christianity never change. It could be said that Christianity tries to stay back in those ancient days, fails, but hangs on anyway ... but still become a totally different Christianity from what it was in Jesus' day ... thinking that it's the same.
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06-02-2018, 08:39 PM | #132 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-03-2018, 07:11 AM | #133 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
One of the early seeds that grew into what became Christianity was Hellenism. According to Acts 6:1 there were hellenists in Jerusalem from the earliest days of the church. That verse says that the hellenists complained against the hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. Acts 9: 29 says that after Saul's conversion he disputed against the hellenists in Jerusalem. Apollos who was from Alexandria, the center of Hellenistic philosophy, was probably a hellenist.
The best known Hellenist of the first century was Philo in Alexandria who was the contemporary of Jesus and Paul. He combined Judaism platonism and stoicism. Philo’s allegorization of the Hebrew Bible set a precedent that was followed by Paul who used a similar method of biblical hermeneutics. Philo also promulgated the concept of the logos which of course is used in the prologue of the Gospel of John. The highly symbolic interpretation of the life of Jesus exhibited in The Gospel of John is typical of a Hellenistic philosophical approach. The Church Father Clement who's also from Alexandria was a hellenist who taught that philosophy was given to the Greeks as their own kind of covenant and foundation for the philosophy of Christ.
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06-03-2018, 07:19 AM | #134 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I'm doing all I can to hold back a Bahahahaha.
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06-03-2018, 08:52 AM | #135 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I once brought up that they used the Greek Septuagint in Sunday School class, and the preacher that was leading the class said, "If it was good enough for Jesus, and the apostles, it's good enough for us." But we don't use the Septuagint today. In fact, we completely reject that Christianity was Hellenized. While reading books that were Hellenized ... like the gospel of John, that was clearly Hellenized.
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06-04-2018, 07:08 AM | #136 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Paul tells the Romans :
Rom_16:25* Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, This mystery that was hidden since the world began was revealed when the Holy Land had been Hellenized. Why did God wait to reveal it then? Why was Jesus born into a period when the culture he grew up in was ruled by the Romans, and the Jewish people had become Hellenized? Then, after Jesus ascends, he appears to Saul, a Jew that's a Roman, who brings in the gentiles, that were the Hellenizers. So was Christianity, starting with the Nazarene's, poor because it started out Hellenized?
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06-04-2018, 07:15 AM | #137 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Paul's ministry builds the church. Shortly after the church arrives on the scene we also see Christianity. Correlation is not causation. I recently saw an ice cream truck, not more than one week later it was 90 degrees. Did the ice cream truck cause the summer? Correlation is not causation.
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06-04-2018, 08:47 AM | #138 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-05-2018, 12:46 PM | #139 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I re-read my post. I made no such claim. Unless you can prove that Paul degraded Christianity, you're off topic.
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06-05-2018, 03:01 PM | #140 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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2. In Post #4 Zeek defines Christianity for this thread as a human response to the cognitive dissonance that resulted when Jesus did not return in the first generation of believers. 3. In Post #6 Zeek, responding to your comment, says that IIPeter supports his theory of a human response rationalizing the fact that the Lord had not returned yet. Then you quote Paul in Romans 16:5 about the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret, said this mystery wasn't revealed until the land was Hellenized, and then ask if Christianity was poor because it was Hellenized. Therefore, based on the context I read your post to say that Paul was the one who brought in the human response with his "revelation of the mystery" which you refer to as "Hellenized".
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06-05-2018, 06:39 PM | #141 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But I didn't say that. Neither did I say that the "mystery" was Hellenized. I think I made it clear enough that, the Christian era arose when the Holy Land was Hellenized ; during Hellenized times. And then I ask if Christianity was poor because of it.
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06-06-2018, 04:48 AM | #142 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The early Jesus movement in Palestine where many of the sects were hostile to Gentiles was unusual in that it attracted Greek-speaking Jews from the diaspora and "God fearers" the non-jews who were honorary members of the synagogues. Diaspora Jews tended to be less exclusive and more open to Hellenistic ideas. Alexandrian Jews spoke Greek and achieved an interesting fusion of Greek and Jewish culture. But few of them could read classical Hebrew so they couldn't understand the Torah thus the need for the Septuagint translation. Philo of Alexandria seems to have influenced both Paul and the Gospel of John. He produced a large number of commentaries on the pentateuch that you can read today. He allegorized the Bible using numerological and etymological methods and the Logos. The apocalypticists stressed the coming of the Kingdom to this world. The Alexandrians or hellenists saw this world as a shadow of the timeless dimension of reality that is more real than its physical or historical dimension. When Jesus failed to return to set up his kingdom on Earth as expected the church moved in the direction of otherworldly salvation that had been laid out by the hellenists. If we want to call that trend "Christianity" then it could be said that Christianity saved the Jesus movement rather than that it polluted it.
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06-06-2018, 04:54 AM | #143 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-06-2018, 05:01 AM | #144 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-06-2018, 05:41 AM | #145 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-06-2018, 05:45 AM | #146 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-06-2018, 07:02 AM | #147 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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So I assume when you use the term "Christianity" in this post it is referring not to the church but to the "poor, poor christianity" of this thread. Therefore they are both based on the NT, the difference is that Christianity is based very much on the interpretation of these verses by particular Christian teachers whereas the church does not suffer such a limitation. For example, Witness Lee greatly limited the way in which the NT could be understood, interpreted and even what the members of the LRC could read, write and say.
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06-06-2018, 07:09 AM | #148 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Instead, I would argue that the cause for this was that the believers "left their first love". Much of the legalistic and organizational aspects of Christianity are contrary to the Jesus we saw and loved in the gospels. The fact that the teachings took this course to my understanding is that they chose the easiest route. The principal being that the road to destruction is wide, and the road to life is narrow and there are few that find it. Popular, prevailing views do not indicate an accurate understanding of the word, simply the understanding that those who take the broad way choose to embrace. I think the Lord describes this in his parable of the good samaritan where everyone in the story is "going down to Jericho" except for the Samaritan who is "journeying". Christianity in that parable is depicted by Jericho.
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06-06-2018, 08:06 AM | #149 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-06-2018, 09:06 AM | #150 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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It did not, however, permit idols. The ten commandments still held. But still, Hellenistic culture couldn't help but influence early Christianity. They were, after all, using the Koine Greek Septuagint as reference, not the Hebraic text ; even "Matthew," the most Jewish gospel ; mistakenly taking "virgin birth" from it. So in the end, Hellenistic influence, did not make Christianity poor, but rich. Exemplified by the fact that all the NT was written in Koine Greek. Christianity, after the canonization of the Greek books, totally and completely depend on that Hellenization. Paul's revelation of the mystery spring up during the Hellenistic Era, by a Hellenistic Roman Jew (perhaps God couldn't reveal it to a non-Hellenistic Jew). And we should be grateful, and say, "Amen Lord." Then, after Paul's Greek writings, circa 40 years later, the Hellenized Greek gospel that came to be named John, was written. And the revelation of the mystery continued to be revealed, actually opening with "Logos," that was at the time, totally Hellenistic. And all Christians since say amen.
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06-06-2018, 09:56 AM | #151 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I think that you are focused on the noise and pomp and missing the masterpiece of God which has yet to be unveiled. It is like looking at some preacher asking for a $54 million dollar jet to "preach the gospel" and thinking that this behavior somehow speaks negatively about what God and Christ are doing. It is simply the black background which will make the revelation of the church all that more glorious.
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06-06-2018, 11:01 AM | #152 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-06-2018, 01:45 PM | #153 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: 26 yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. 27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.
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06-06-2018, 02:27 PM | #154 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Seems it's not up to me. Glad for you tho ... that you know the Father, that only the son knows ... so you know the Father like the son knows. Glad for you.
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06-06-2018, 07:09 PM | #155 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
So are you saying that, the church is evolving to the Omega Point?
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06-07-2018, 05:17 AM | #156 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I'm sure I didn't say that since I don't even know what you are referring to by "Omega Point".
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06-07-2018, 05:58 AM | #157 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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It's possible that the fact that Paul was educated gave him an advantage over the 12 apostles who weren't. The gospels were written anonymously so we don't actually know if Matthew or John wrote the gospels that are attributed to them. Likewise the Epistles of James Peter and John. But, even if they did write those documents, what about Andrew, Phillip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Simon the zealot, or late comer, Matthias? Despite the fact that Jesus chose all but Matthias to disseminate his teaching we have nothing from them. Jesus appointed them. Where are their teachings? Paul didn't know the pre Resurrection Jesus. He conveys little of Jesus's pre Resurrection teaching in his letters. And Paul also dominates the story in Acts. Since his Epistles came before the gospels were written Paul's brand of Hellenism may have influenced them as well. In 2nd Corinthians 5 Paul says "...from now on we regard no one according to the flesh even though we have known Christ according to the flesh yet now we know him thus no longer." Was Paul suppressing the teachings of those who actually knew Jesus before the resurrection in favor his own Hellenistic gospel? If so, he succeeded. It was the Pauline vision that prevailed and was used to build the church. In his epistle to the Galatians Paul questions the authority of James Peter and John calling them "reputed pillars". He boasts that he opposed Peter to his face because Peter disagreed with him about eating kosher food. If the Galatians were to accept Paul's teaching over that of Peter and the other apostles then Paul would would be the dominant authority to them. This in fact seems what transpired among the churches eventually. The Hellenists prevailed. Those that didn't accept it came to be called Judaizers when in fact they may have simply been adhering to the practices of Judaism like Jesus did as the Book of Matthew presents him. What do you think?
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06-07-2018, 07:50 AM | #158 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But really!? Haven't you heard of Google & Wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point I must have mistakenly thought I was talking to bro Ohio. He would be more likely to know. The term Omega Point was coined by a Catholic Priest. So he would more likely know the principle I'm talking about. The principle I thought you were talking about. That the church would become something, eventually; I think you called it a masterpiece. Maybe you didn't mean that it would evolve into something, that it would one day go 'poof' and become something. So maybe the Omega Point missed your point, when I used it. Please explain to me again how : Quote:
This is important to this thread. Cuz a premise exists, that the early church was the ideal, that was lost, at some point, and further lost down thru the years. (We're trying to find that point). And there's this thing called the Recovery. That sells itself as recovering that ideal. That claims to be the final preparation of the bride for the arrival of the bridegroom. So is this what you meant, by the church eventually becoming a masterpiece? Cuz I have to say, the church doesn't look like that that's what it's becoming. Sorry, if I see the reality. We're trying to figure out just where the church made a wrong turn. I've basically asked if starting out during the Hellenized Age was that wrong turn.
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06-07-2018, 01:03 PM | #159 | ||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I don't think the Gospel of Matthew presents Jesus as a Judaizer. I define a Judaizer as one who requires believers to be circumcised, to convert to Judaism, to separate themselves from believers who have not converted, and who still keep the various animal sacrifices. I fully agree with Paul's understanding that Jesus death is the real circumcision and I fully agree with Peter's vision that Jesus death cleansed all of us so that we no longer have "clean" and "unclean" peoples.
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06-08-2018, 05:05 AM | #160 | ||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Here are a few things Witness Lee had to say about Christianity recorded in a book entitled Three Aspects of the Church: Book 2, The Course of the Church for your consideration.
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I think Lee's counsel to imitate God's forbearance is wise, but I include the LCM movement under the rubric "Christianity" that needs to be forbeared.
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06-08-2018, 05:53 AM | #161 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-08-2018, 06:07 AM | #162 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-08-2018, 06:31 AM | #163 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Here's the whole thing :
Is Paul at Odds with Matthew? In yesterday’s post I indicated that I really very much wish that we could have some of the writings produced by Paul’s opponents in Galatia. They believed that in order to be a follower of Jesus, a person had to accept and follow the Law of Moses as laid out in the Jewish Scriptures. Men were to be circumcised to join the people of God; men and women were, evidently, to adopt a Jewish lifestyle. Presumably that meant keeping kosher, observing the Sabbath, and so on. Anyone who didn’t do this was not really a member of the people of God, since to be one of God’s people meant following the law that God had given. Paul was incensed at this interpretation of the faith and insisted with extraordinary vehemence that it was completely wrong. The gentile followers of Jesus were not, absolutely not, supposed to become Jewish. Anyone who thought so rendered the death of Jesus worthless. It was only that death, and the resurrection, that made a person right with God. Nothing else. Certainly not following the Torah. I often wonder whether Paul and the author of the Gospel of Matthew would have gotten along. Matthew’s Gospel was probably… Matthew’s Gospel was probably written about thirty years after Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians; Galatians is usually dated to the mid 50s, Matthew to around 80-85 CE. We don’t know who the author of Matthew was, apart from the fact that he was obviously a highly educated Greek-speaking Christian living outside of Palestine. His book is often located to Antioch Syria, but in my view that is simply a guess based on flimsy evidence. Still, it certainly *may* have been written Antioch, a city with a large Jewish population and a burgeoning Christian church. Matthew, like the other Gospel writers, did not produce his account simply out of antiquarian interests, to inform his readers what happened 55 years earlier in the days of Jesus. His is not a disinterested biography or an objective history. It is a “Gospel.” In other words, it is intended to proclaim the “good news” about Jesus and the salvation that he brings. When Jesus teaches something in this Gospel, Matthew expects that the teaching will be relevant to his readers, that they will want to do what Jesus says. There is no doubt that Matthew would agree with Paul that it was the death and resurrection of Jesus that brought salvation to the world. The Gospel is not *entirely* about Jesus’ death and resurrection. But it is largely about that. It is 28 chapters long, and the last 8 chapters are focused exclusively on what happened during the last week of Jesus’ life in Jerusalem, including the crucifixion and resurrection. This is clearly the climax of the story. And for Matthew, as for his predecessor Mark, the death of Jesus is seen as “a ransom for many” (Matt. 20:28). It is through his death that he “will save his people from their sins” (Matt. 1:21). So Matthew would agree with Paul there. But so would Paul’s opponents in Galatia. The controversy with the Galatian opposition was not over whether Jesus’ death brings salvation. It was over whether the followers of Jesus, who accept that death, need to keep the Jewish law. And it does seem to me that this is where Paul and Matthew split company. Again, remember that when Matthew decides what to present about Jesus’ life in the Gospel it is not simply so that people can know “what really happened” in the past. It is so that the life and teachings of Jesus can direct the lives of his followers in the present. And what does Jesus say about the Jewish law in Matthew? He says that his followers have to keep it. One of the key passages is something that you will NEVER find in the writings of Paul. Do not suppose that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I came not to destroy but to fulfil. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away not one iota or one stroke of a letter will pass away from the law until all is fulfilled. And so, whoever looses one of the least of these commandments and teaches others in this way will be called least in the kingdom of God, but whoever does and teaches the law will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that if your righteousness does not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. This is a really interesting passage. Does it contradict Paul that the followers of Jesus were *not* to keep the law? It seems to. Now someone *could* say that here Jesus is saying simply that the entire law has to be in effect until he dies (“until all is fulfilled”). But Jesus is saying more than that. His followers must do and teach the law. None of it will pass away until the world is destroyed (“till heaven and earth pass away”). Again, Matthew is not saying this so his readers will have a good history lesson about the Savior of the world and what he taught his disciples. He is including this passage for the same reason he includes all his passages, to teach his readers how they are to believe and live. Jesus in this passage does *not* say, “Keep the law until I die.” He says he did not come to destroy the law. It is still in effect. And will be as long as the earth lasts. His followers have to keep it. After this Jesus launches into his “antitheses,” where he indicates what the law says and explains its fuller, deeper meaning. The law says don’t kill; to fulfill it you should not engage someone with wrath. The law says not to take someone’s spouse; to fulfill it you should not want to do so. The law says to make punishments fit the crimes (an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth; not a head for an eye or a body for a tooth); to fulfill it you should show extreme mercy and not punish another for harm done to you. And so on. I really don’t think that Matthew’s Jesus did not mean what he says. He gives no hint that following the law this closely is impossible to do. He seems to think it is possible. God gave a law. You should follow it. Scrupulously. Even more scrupulously than the righteous scribes and Pharisees. If you don’t, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That’s a tall order. And in my judgment it seems very much opposed to Paul’s views, who insists that *his* readers not think that they must follow the law.
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06-08-2018, 07:29 AM | #164 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
As I've come to see it so far, the early Christians were Jews, and at least the educated elite were Hellenized Christian Jews ; reading and referencing the Koine Greek Septuagint.
But there came a split in the two types of Jewish Christians. Some were called Judaizers, and some were called Hellenizers ; in Paul's terms, basically, the circumcisers, and the uncircumcisers. James, the brother of Jesus, was an example of the Judaizers. Paul an example of the Hellenizers, and prolly their leader. That the Hellenizers won out is without question. Or rather, that the Judaizers lost out is without question. That's obvious. Maybe six of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't know. There's power in numbers. The uncircumcisers, the Hellenists, won out. Paul proved to be the top dog apostle, over James, Peter, John, and prolly over the rest of the "silent Bob" disciples. The different gospel Paul rebuked in Galatians was that of the original Jewish Christians, the Judaizers, and they lost out. Was that the first wrong turn in the history of the Christian movement? It is said that history is written by the victors. And they, Christians today, that aren't Jewish at all, certainly can't be trusted to offer an unbiased answer. Was Hellenization the beginning of poor, poor, Christianity? Should Paul have won out over the original disciples? Since they were all Hellenized Jewish Christians I guess it couldn't be helped. I guess those pesky smarty-pants Greeks won again.
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06-08-2018, 07:53 AM | #165 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Zeek,
I think this question is misleading. It was Jesus in the gospels (including Matthew) that violated the Sabbath day based on "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath". Then it was Peter who violated the prohibition of eating with the Gentiles and baptized them into the church. It is also clear that they were not required by Peter or by the Lord's vision, to be circumcised first. Instead the Vision said that they had already been cleansed and Peter understood that to mean that the Lord's redemptive work on the cross opened the New Covenant to them. This was then confirmed in a council headed up by James. All of the so called "Judaizers" got to weigh in and everyone agreed that the Lord's redemptive work applied to Gentiles who were not required to be circumcised or convert to Judaism first. None of this had anything to do with Paul whose ministry came later. Since circumcision in the OT was simply the "signature of God on your flesh" that you had a covenant with God it was clearly not required when Peter baptized the gentiles. Therefore, what is the sign in our flesh that we have a covenant with God if not circumcision? That is the question that Paul answers. He is not the one who told us Gentiles don't need to be circumcised, that was already decided. He merely explained how this decision was consistent with the Bible. Since most agree that the Gospel of Mark is essentially the Gospel of Peter and that there is a very strong correlation between Mark and Matthew this seems to be much to do about nothing.
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06-08-2018, 09:38 AM | #166 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I don't know that it matters, but your response should be to zeek not me.
This : Quote:
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06-08-2018, 07:16 PM | #167 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Those questions about the Sabbath seem to be matters of interpretation of law not it's abrogation. The sabbath laws were ambiguous so interpretations varied. So, for instance, according to Rabbi Akiba one should not desecrate the Sabbath for things that can be done the day before or the day after but no desecration exists when such a possibility is not offered. Like Akiba's, Jesus' interpretation fits within the context of Judaism. In Galatians 2:16, Paul says that no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law. Matthew 16:17 says for the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels and then he will reward each according to his works. How do you reconcile those verses? It's not unwarranted to question whether Paul and the author of Matthew would have been at odds if they had been contemporaneous and aware of one another. See post # 163 for Ehrman's more detailed elaboration of the problem that Awareness kindly provided. The document that we call Mark doesn't have the author's name on it. That it was written by Mark a follower of Peter is matter of tradition begun by Papias. Eusebius mentions it centuries later, but few historical scholars accept it as conclusive.
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06-09-2018, 02:25 AM | #168 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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In Galatians Paul also refers to the "works of the flesh" and the "fruit of the spirit". He says "whatever a man sows this shall he also reap". The reaping is our "reward" or our "judgement". Therefore I would compare Matt 16:17 with Galatians 6, not Galatians 2. In Matthew we are rewarded for our work, in Galatians we reap what we sow. I would also use Matt 6 to compare with Matt 16 "this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent". So then, to interpret being rewarded according to his works as being different from "believing in Him whom God has sent" is contrary to the book of Matthew. Once again, I don't think post #163 does a fair job of presenting Matthew or Galatians and is therefore misleading on that point as well.
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06-09-2018, 06:37 AM | #169 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-09-2018, 07:50 AM | #170 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Isn't that the standard we're seeking to measure from, to determine if and when Christianity became poor? But that state of Christianity, the earliest stage, or state, of Christianity, is hard to get at ; so it's been used by "Christian" con men time and time again -- The Recovery, for instance -- down thru the ages. So it's just easier to believe and conclude that the gospels are speaking of eyewitness accounts, to what Jesus did and said, and we're getting the true Jesus, that founded the purest form of Christian teachings. This leads to an effort to be that pure form of Christianity. The RCC, for example, claims to go back to Peter. The Baptists cooked up Landmarkism, that traces the Baptist Christians back thru a true ribbon down to their founder, Jesus. And we all know of The Recovery. This idea that the Christian movement strayed from it's purest form, based upon its founder, is an easy sell. And we (the Royal we again) buy it because it sounds good. Of course we want what Jesus founded. The problem is that that earliest model of Christianity, straight from the founder, was to be a Jewish Christian. The Hellenist Jewish Christians fixed that. Or broke it. We haven't determined which yet.
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06-09-2018, 08:37 AM | #171 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-10-2018, 08:53 AM | #172 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-10-2018, 09:12 AM | #173 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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So the scriptures are secondary, at best ... and not the creative agent ... according to, and even in, them.
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06-11-2018, 05:13 AM | #174 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-11-2018, 07:31 AM | #175 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Here's an article arguing against the notion that Philo influenced the New Testament: http://www.equip.org/article/was-the...nced-by-philo/
Here's an article arguing for the notion https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.u...S-DOCUMENT.PDF
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06-11-2018, 08:17 AM | #176 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But what I find most interesting about Philo, not only that he was a contemporary with Jesus, but wasn't mention in any of the books of the New Testament, but that Philo never mentions Jesus. The gospels depict Jesus as attracting whole towns of people, yet it's like Philo didn't know anything about it. Philo led a group of Hellenistic Jews in Alexandria. He had dealings in Jerusalem, and had connections with the royal house of Judaea. His brother Alexander financed the silver and gold sheathing which adorned the doors of the Temple. One of Alexander's sons, and Philo's nephews, Marcus, was married to Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea, 39-40. After the exile of Herod Antipas around 41-44 AD Marcus ruled as King of the Jews. Philo wrote extensively on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. Yet in none of his thirty manuscripts, and at least 850,000 words, does he mention Jesus, and nothing about Christianity, or any of the goings-on told in the gospels. In the New Testament it's like Philo didn't exist. And to Philo none of Christianity existed. Now isn't that an interesting puzzle ... let that marinate for awhile.
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06-12-2018, 08:30 PM | #177 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Okay, everyone has marinated long enough.
Let's all Christians today admit that it was a good thing the Judaizers lost out, and the Hellenizers won out. Else we'd likely not be Christians today. If the Judaizers won, it's likely Constantine wouldn't have happened. The west wouldn't be the same today at all. That being said, all Christians today should be happy the Hellenizers won. But then we should be happy and admit that Christianity was influenced by Greek philosophy, culture, language, and education. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Christianity owes a debt of gratitude to the pagans. Without them we wouldn't be Christians today. And Hellenism is not when Christianity was made poor.
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06-13-2018, 08:03 AM | #178 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I don't expect LCD discussants to agree on exactly when the apostasy began. But as former members of the LCM, we were all taught that Christianity was apostate and that necessitated a recovery of the church as God's move on Earth. That conviction places the "Lord's Recovery" within the larger Christian restorationist movement. By the way, "apostasy" is an apt synonym for "Christianity" in the Witness Lee terminology. To Igzy's question "does 'Baptist' mean to a Baptist what 'Recovery' means..." I would answer yes. Landmarkism is the Baptist equivalent to Lee's "Recovery". Many, Lee included, trace the apostasy back to Constantine. Some like perhaps Boxjobox may trace it back to when Tertullian formulated the doctrine of the Trinity. Many would probably agree that the apostasy began in the New Testament times and was what Paul was fighting against and described as "other gospels". Unfortunately, since he doesn't described what they believed in detail we can sometimes only guess what Paul was referring to from such clues as he provided.
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06-14-2018, 09:25 PM | #179 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I'll try to keep it short and sweet. From what I understand Jesus was God's plan. So that means that God planned for Jesus' birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, AND -- the birth of the Christian movement, loosely stated -- all happened DURING the Hellenistic Age. That means that God planned it all that way : that it would end up being Greek. It was planned from the beginning. Those ancient Greek philosophers were planned by God ; Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Heraclitus, et al. all planned by God. Alexander the Great was planned by God (he was right, he was divinely inspired, coerce Delphi said he was "invincible"). The point is, it was all planned. Were Paul, John, and whoever wrote the book of Hebrews, influenced by Hellenism? If so, and if Jesus was planned, then yes, it was all planned by God. So Hellenism wasn't bad in the beginning. Why then, and when, was it stamped out? And was that God's plan? Was Constantine and Theodosius I, who made Christianity the state religion, and stamped out Hellenism, God's plan? Seems to me that when it stopped being God's plan is when Christianity became poor. Was that when Hellenism was removed?
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06-15-2018, 04:50 AM | #180 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Well, as it's often said, God's ways are mysterious. His relation to Christianity is no exception. Let's trace what happened in terms of the concept of authority.
Jesus envisioned a fully egalitarian society where people acknowledge no authority except that of God. During Paul's time authority was conferred by particular gifts bestowed on people by the Holy Spirit including preaching, teaching, prophecy and healing. But a few individuals including Paul himself claimed special authority for themselves that was justified in terms of their direct contact with the risen Lord. Egalitarian, Spirit-lead forms of Christian community were challenged by those who believed that order and unity could only be achieved by means of hierarchical leadership. Formal leadership roles developed that were reserved for men who claims some direct association with Jesus. When the original followers of Jesus died off, the idea of apostolic succession developed according to which authority was passed down a male line that could be traced back to Jesus and the apostles who had known him directly. The process became formalized into a rite of priestly ordination. Leaders were considered to be ordained by God and set apart from the rest of humanity. So power was concentrated in the hands of a few. Apostolic succession helped to secure uniformity of belief. The authority structure claimed apostolic succession and determinded what orthodoxy was and who were the heretics. Like Judaism, Hellenism had a tradition of priesthood. The priests stood between humans and the god or gods to whom they sacrificed. The Eucharist was the Christian version of sacrificial practice. It was seen as a repetition of Jesus's once-for-all sacrifice. It could be conducted only by ordained priests who stood in a special relationship to Christ which was conferred on them by the hierarchical system of authority in the apostolic line.
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06-15-2018, 09:33 PM | #181 | |||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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There's prolly always been those that claimed some special inside info on the unseen forces, and spirit realm personifications.
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06-16-2018, 06:11 AM | #182 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The Hierarchy was the definite beginning of a development which finally resulted into what is now known as the Catholic, or universal church. It might be said that its indefinite beginnings were near the close of the second and beginning of the third century, when the new ideas concerning bishops and preacher-church government began to take shape.By the 2nd century the lines of authority were coming together to form the basis of Church Christianity. Its advocates to spoke of the emerging system as ‘catholic’ meaning ‘universal’, or ‘orthodox’ meaning ‘true belief’. By presenting itself as the one true, universal form of Christianity, the group that became dominant made alternative versions of the faith look like deviations from a pure root stock and their followers like schismatics and heretics. For example the Ebionites who the Church Fathers condemned as heretics were probably the descendants of Jesus followers referred to as the "Nazarenes" in Acts . Following the devastation of Jerusalem the Nazarenes took refuge as a community in exile where they hid out with other Jews. Paul's "Judaizers" were from this group. The book of Matthew reflects their narrative theology. "There was no clear demarcation or formal transition from Nazarene to Ebionite; there was no sudden change of theology or Christology." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites What changed was the hierarchical authority structure which gradually became more trans-local, consolidated authority and the formalization into a fixed normative compulsory creed. With Constantine that authority structure centralized and received the backing of Roman state imperial power.
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06-17-2018, 09:42 PM | #183 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Arnold Toynbee, the 20th century historian who coined the term Industrial Revolution, observed that the germ of creative power in Christianity was not of Hellenic but of Syriac origin. (A Study of History page 36) According to Toynbee, "In Christianity we are aware of Hellenic elements drawn from Hellenic mystery religions and Hellenic philosophy." However, Toynbee finds that Christianity is "a universal church originating in a germ that was alien to the society in which it played its part." (ibid p37)
"In the disintegration of the Hellenic world the unsuccessful rivals of Christianity all sought to promote the success of their missionary enterprises on Hellenic ground by recasting the visual representations of their divinity's informs likely to prove agreeable to Hellenic eyes. But none of them made any appreciable move toward taking the further step of Helenizing itself inwardly as well as outwardly.In support of this assertion, Toynbee cites historian PE More's "Christ the Word: the Greek tradition from The Death of Socrates to the Council of Chalcedon" volume IV, page 298. "In the synoptic gospels Jesus is regarded as the Son of God and this belief is carried on and deepened in the body of the Fourth Gospel but also in the prologue to the Fourth Gospel the idea is thrown out that the savior of the world is the Creative Logos of God implicitly then though the statement is not made explicitly the Son of God and the Logos of God are one and the same the Son as the Logos is identified with the creative wisdom and purpose of Deity the Logos as the Son is hypostatized into a person beside the person of the Father. At one bound the philosophy of the Logos has become a religion."
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06-18-2018, 09:28 AM | #184 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Well now, this is a deep and thick post. Of course it is. It's Toynbee.
After leaving the LC I became obsessively neurotic over learning about all that I had just blindly accepted and believed uncritically in the LC. And my studies, in short order, brought me to Toynbee's A Study of History. I had to have his book. But money was tight back then, and his book was expensive. So I saved up for it, and bought A Study of History - The First Abridged One Volume Edition - Illustrated. A large volume. Since then, and off and on, I've spent much time in his book, but haven't ever finished it. It's large, with small print, and Toynbee isn't writing for lay people like myself. In other words, he's laborious reading. Quote:
We know Hellenism was Greek, but the Syriac, a dialect that Toynbee speaks of -- first century -- originated in Mesopotamia. That's interesting too. God was obviously busy, arranging things all over the place, developing a compost, for his final solution, the "germ" Toynbee speaks of, the "Logos Religion." I won't break down the rest of Toynbee, unless it comes up. So Christianity was born during the Hellenistic Period. Toynbee sees a connection, but only on the surface, so they could speak to the Hellenic peoples. But internally, so Toynbee seems to be saying, early Christianity was Syriac, or Aramaic. Since Jesus, and his bunch, spoke Aramaic, that makes sense. So was Hellenism bad from the get-go? Something early Christians were in, but not of? Something they just used as a tool, for communicating with, to reach others with their real good news : the Living Logos? Evidently, that was something brand new, brand new to history, and the world ; a "seed" planted in a compost. That's my take away from Toynbee presented so far. I could be wrong.
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06-18-2018, 12:31 PM | #185 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Toynbee goes on to say: "This device of preaching religion in the language of philosophy was one of the heirlooms which Christianity had inherited from Judaism. It was Philo the Jewish philosopher of Alexandria (circa 30 B.C.-A.D. 45) who sowed the seed from which Philo’s Christian fellow-citizens, Clement and Origen, were to reap so rich a harvest two centuries later; and it was perhaps from the same quarter that the author of the Fourth Gospel gained his vision of the Divine Logos with which he identifies his Incarnate God. Quote:
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06-19-2018, 08:40 PM | #186 | ||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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No wonder they wrote anonymously. They must have been ashamed for not citing or attributing his influence on their writings ; actually never citing any of their sources or references. Quote:
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06-19-2018, 11:46 PM | #187 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-20-2018, 09:07 AM | #188 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I disagree with Toynbee. Hellenism won. If it was only "exterior," as Toynbee writes, then that exterior is what the movement ended up with. The exterior Toynbee speaks of won. The "seed," -- the "germ" -- that Toynbee speaks of, as he states, grew up in a "compost." The compost he says was that of Syriac and Hellenic composition. It produced, he says, "The Logos Religion." Syriac may have been in the compost, but it's oblivious that Hellen is what ended up being delivered, even in the NT record. But it's still true that, every book of the NT was written by Jews. Therefore, much more could be said about this. Quote:
I may never find out the answers. They may be unanswerable : a vast mystery ... about the origins of the Christianity I've grown up in.
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06-21-2018, 08:26 AM | #189 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Where does Toynbee say that Hellenism was only exterior and use the compost metaphor? But yes, as the churches became more and more gentile, the traditional hebraic background of the church in thought and teaching began to be submerged in Hellenistic thought forms. Israel's preoccupation with history and eschatology was gradually overlaid with more static concepts of Greek categorical thought. These Greek concepts aided the church in its adjustment to the delay of the second coming. But their characteristic division of the human person into soul and body led to extremes of asceticism, libertinism and gnosticism, therefore created ethical and ordinal problems for those vying for control. The orthodox solution combined authoritarianism in the Roman tradition with dogma based on Greek philosophical categories.
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06-21-2018, 09:22 AM | #190 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Jesus couldn't speak Greek, but He could understand every Greek speaker who prayed to Him? You guys are so "wise," you have lost all common sense. (Romans 1.22)
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06-21-2018, 10:02 AM | #191 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
By all accounts Jesus was a very insightful reader of human nature. I'm looking at the subject from the standpoint of historical probability. If you postulate a universe in which anything is possible, it is possible that Jesus was a divine being with supernatural powers. Nevertheless, given what we know about natural and human history it's probable that Jesus was a biologically typical member of the human species whose story became legendary and was mythologized through a process of oral tradition and religious experience culminating in the gospels. Indeed, many of the gospels which are not included in the canon make even more fantastical claims about Jesus.
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06-21-2018, 10:20 AM | #192 | ||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-21-2018, 10:28 AM | #193 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
That is just too cute to comment on. But it's Biblical.
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06-21-2018, 10:57 AM | #194 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-21-2018, 11:24 AM | #195 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
And your point is?
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06-21-2018, 06:56 PM | #196 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-22-2018, 06:27 AM | #197 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Only Ohio can explain what he meant by quoting that verse in this context. I don't presume to know.
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06-22-2018, 08:07 AM | #198 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Maybe that's what made Christianity poor, poor ; when the Bible started to become what it wasn't intended for when written.
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06-23-2018, 10:31 AM | #199 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
We don't know that for sure. It may just be that of the story teller. I'd have to see that trick with my own eyes to believe it. Even then, I'd have to call James Randi in to reveal how the trick was being done.
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Personally, I think that the reason the NT was written in Greek was because they were writing to a Hellenic market. Quote:
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06-25-2018, 03:29 PM | #200 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
It seems we're back to the christology question which on the surface seems to digress from the OP topic, but really doesn't. How can we determine where Christianity went wrong, if indeed it did, without first determining who Jesus was and what he was really like? Take Ohio's point about Jesus's knowledge level. Some gospel texts seem to indicate that Jesus shared normal human limitations in his knowledge of the affairs of life. Other gospels attribute extraordinary and even superhuman knowledge to him. Take one story told in the three synoptic gospels, for instance:
Mark 5:30-33In Mark Jesus asks who touched hm and looks around for her. In Luke he asks who touched hm but doesn't look around. In Matthew, Jesus neither needs to ask nor look around for the toucher. He KNOWS what has happened. Is this not evidence of a move from a lower to a higher Christology in terms of Jesus' knowledge level?
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06-25-2018, 04:13 PM | #201 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
The Gospels clearly document that Jesus spoke Aramaic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus So, from naturalistic-historical point of view in which we find Jesus as a Galilean peasant/artisan existing on the margin between Syriac/Hebraic/Aramaic culture and the Greco/Roman culture, the importance of understanding as much as possible about ancient Aramaic cannot be overestimated. On the subject of Aramaic , Albert Schweitzer, writing in the early 20th century provides this summary:
In the course of the nineteenth century Aramaic—known down to the time of Michaelis as “Chaldee” * — was more thoroughly studied. The various branches of this language and the history of its progress became more or less clearly recognisable. Kautzsch’s grammar of Biblical Aramaic (1884) and Dalman’s work embody the result of these studies.It is also likely that Jesus knew some Koine Greek since it was spoken widely in Galilee, and it is also possible that Jesus knew some Hebrew that he learned in the synagogue. According to Dead Sea Scrolls archaeologist Yigael Yadin, Aramaic was the language of Hebrews until Simon Bar Kokhba's revolt (132 AD to 135 AD). Yadin noticed the shift from Aramaic to Hebrew in the documents he studied, which had been written during the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt. In his book, Bar Kokhba: The rediscovery of the legendary hero of the last Jewish Revolt Against Imperial Rome, Yigael Yadin notes, "It is interesting that the earlier documents are written in Aramaic while the later ones are in Hebrew. Possibly the change was made by a special decree of Bar Kokhba who wanted to restore Hebrew as the official language of the state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus
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06-26-2018, 08:34 AM | #202 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Okay. Jesus spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek ... and King James.
Or it would have been nice if he spoke King James. Because how much has been lost in translation to us today is untold. That, and many more reasons, is why we just have to believe God wrote all the books of the Bible ... and then protected them down thru the ages, all the way down to us. But back to Hellenism for a second. As far as I'm concerned Toynbee crashed and burned. Turns out he had a a strong bias against Hellenism, based on skimpy evidence. Toynbee said Hellenism committed suicide around the 5th c. BC. When Hellenism turn to "man and city-state worship." That Toynbee considered idolatry, or turning away from God(s). If that's true, Jesus would have definitely rejected Hellenism, and would have been working against Hellenism, to bring them back to God. He was doing the same to the Judaic religion of his day, that had combined with Hellenic rulers. Jesus did this, I suppose killing two birds with one stone, by introducing "The Father." Jesus wasn't a "man" or "city-state" worshiper. So how Christianity became about man worship I don't know.
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06-26-2018, 09:19 AM | #203 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Simple. Christmas day.
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06-26-2018, 09:28 AM | #204 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I was reminded of when Jesus read Isaiah in His hometown Synagogue. Not only did the common folk understand exactly what He read, but they also understood the implications of that fulfilled prophecy -- and thus attempted to murder one of their own, throwing Him off the cliff. This proves that those in Nazareth and Galilee may have been "unlettered and unlearned," but they surely could understand Hebrew.
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06-26-2018, 10:31 AM | #205 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I'll bite. Please explain what you mean by Christmas day.
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06-26-2018, 10:34 AM | #206 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Good point. But was he reading from the Septuagint?
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06-26-2018, 06:06 PM | #207 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-26-2018, 06:44 PM | #208 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Your statement that we just have to believe that God wrote all the books of the Bible and then protected them down through the ages seems disingenuous. What do you really mean? And you still haven't shown us where Toynbee said that Hellenism was only exterior and used a compost metaphor. Now you claim he has a strong bias against Hellenism, stated that Hellenism committed suicide around the 5th Century BC and turned to man and city-state worship. Where do you read that?
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06-26-2018, 06:59 PM | #209 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
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06-26-2018, 07:15 PM | #210 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Now if you want to get into that God spoke Aramaic, or Greek, and/or Hebrew, that might be interesting. Quote:
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Here's just one sample : https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...hellenism.html I found more. Here's another : https://www.commentarymagazine.com/a...old-j-toynbee/
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06-26-2018, 10:29 PM | #211 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-27-2018, 08:08 AM | #212 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
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06-27-2018, 12:01 PM | #213 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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This is the way to look at the Bible that is common among many Bible believers ; a very common way by most on LCD, btw, that can easily be spotted all over the place out here. Speaking of that, I think you and I have been where they are in the past. Believing that way is not unfamiliar to us. In fact, I often shift into that way of believing out here, as I've seen you do. Apparently, you can get out of fundamentalism, but you can't get the fundamentalism out of you. Quote:
And all the authors were just flawed human beings, so we can't expect them to transcribe it accurately. As a result, what comes thru on the page would be shaped by humans with human flaws, and other limitations common to us all. Thus we have authors that contradict other authors. You've recently shown that with the different accounts of a woman that touched the hem of Jesus' garment. So . . . Some things I can say about this that is unassailable:
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In fact, the Septuagint wasn't translated in one fell swoop. The development of the Septuagint that's come down to us today wasn't finished til like the 15th c. AD. But the need for it, started back in circa the 3rd c. BC. It was first translated orally, as was the need for the Jews in the Hellenic period, in their synagogues, when a dragoman did the readings, from Hebrew to Greek. In the end, Hellenism produced not only the Septuagint, but also the New Testament. So Hellenism won. Did Toynbee come to that same conclusion, with his concern about Hellenistic humanism, and its worship of man and city-states? But again, how did Christianity become about man worship? Was that a carry-over from Hellenism too?
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06-28-2018, 01:56 PM | #214 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The New Testament is multi-perspectival not one-size-fits -all. That's why the different author's have different "flavors", and different theologies. And that's why the so-called Church Fathers, the proto-orthodox winners of the struggle for the church's soul, retained those different POVs in the New Testament canon. Besides, you have to overcome a mountain of textual evidence for human authorship which we can go into if you want. It's just that there is no one here arguing vigorously for inerrant divine authorship. If there were, I'd be happy to have that discussion. Quote:
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"The inspiration of the biblical writers is their receptive and creative response to potentially revelatory facts. The inspiration of the writers of the New Testament is their acceptance of Jesus as the Christ, and with him, of the New Being, of which they became witnesses. Since there is no revelation unless there is someone who receives it as revelation, the act of reception is a part of the event itself. The Bible is both original event and original document; it witnesses to that of which it is a part." Quote:
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"...the historical evidence does not really permit the attribution of Jesus-devotion to pagan influences, and does not support an evolutionary model of development, with a divine Jesus emerging only at a secondary stage of the early Christian movement."Whether and how that may be related to the OP topic we can discuss. But, for a straightforward summary of Christianity's turn from the historical Jesus I give you Dr. Schweitzer: "It is only at first sight that the absolute indifference of early Christianity towards the life of the historical Jesus is disconcerting. When Paul, representing those who recognise the signs of the times, did not desire to know Christ after the flesh, that was the first expression of the impulse of self-preservation by which Christianity continued to be guided for centuries. It felt that with the introduction of the historic Jesus into its faith, there would arise something new, something which had not been foreseen in the thoughts of the Master Himself, and that thereby a contradiction would be brought to light, the solution of which would constitute one of the great problems of the world.
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06-29-2018, 08:29 PM | #215 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Interesting post. Lots'a meat. Good thing. Packed it into doggy-bags, or rabbit-bags, for trips down the rabbit holes you opened up on this long post. Obviously, it's not possible to write comprehensibly on them, cuz there are books written about the subjects and authors you introduce, and we don't have that kind of space, nor time.
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Talking about the differences in the authors of the NT, both those gospels live up to that. So then, sadly, we don't have any surviving records from any of the disciples. Why not? John 6:66 says : "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." All because Jesus said : "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." In the gospel called Mark, when Jesus explains why he speaks in parables, he says : "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:" So the disciples were given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. So why didn't any of them tell us about it? Were they also, "disciples that went back and walked no more with Jesus?" Okay, I got the off my chest. But I sure would have liked to hear from each of them. You say, when speaking of the different authors, "it's their individuality that reveals different facets of the truth." Well I say, because the 12 didn't leave us anything, that, we're missing many facets of the truth. And not just facets but, the mystery of the kingdom of God. That's all for now. I'll go down your rabbit-holes in another post ... soon.
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06-29-2018, 09:30 PM | #216 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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06-30-2018, 08:55 AM | #217 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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And maybe the actual answer as to why we don't hear from the 12 is because they were illiterate. The gospel we call John has Jesus saying "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Maybe that was their contribution.
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07-09-2018, 01:46 PM | #218 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
This thread has gone idle.
So can someone tell me why our earliest NT books, by Paul, does not speak of the goings-on found in the much later written gospels, and why the gospels don't cite, reference, or credit, the earlier written epistles of Paul?
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07-10-2018, 04:35 PM | #219 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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In that historical context, it is not surprising to find Paul simply unaware of the oral traditions that evolved into the gospels stories you refer to. And the gospel writers may not have had access to Paul's epistles. Even the author of "Luke/Acts" who relates so many stories about Paul, doesn't quote his epistles. Sometimes his accounts of Paul's adventures conflict with Paul's own version of what happened.
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07-11-2018, 07:47 AM | #220 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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If we only had Paul's earliest accounts of Jesus, we wouldn't know much about the historical Jesus. Perhaps that's because according to Paul he wasn't going by the oral tradition of the stories about Jesus ; he was going by the revealed Jesus, the one that appeared to him on the road to Damascus. And seems Paul's revealed Jesus cared only for a few things about his historical self ; like his death, resurrection, appearances, ascension, and becoming a life giving spirit. Paul's revealed Jesus doesn't even mention his own virgin birth, his own passion account, nor his own sermon on the mount. Quote:
Maybe the gospels don't mention the epistles of Paul because they are written from the perspective of the historical Jesus, and the historical Jesus didn't know Paul. At any rate, following Jesus, early on, in the 1st century, there does seem to be different gospels. Paul warned of different gospels, even during his day. Seems, as he feared, they came along on down the line. And Christianity became poor poor.
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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07-12-2018, 10:55 AM | #222 | |||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Evangelical Christianity's embrace of Trump's presidency reminds me of the pattern through which the Jesus movement became Church Christianity. Like many Evangelicals today, Proto-orthodox Christians understood power as the possession of an Almighty God on high, not of the people below. In Romans 13:1 Paul says "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." Thus, Pauline Christians understood the emperor to be God’s deputy on earth, upholding divine justice, not as a tyrant whose position was based on force. Church Christianity willingly accepted imperial patronage because it had a great deal to gain from it. Christian writers like Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–c. 340) were quick to characterize Constantine as ‘the deputy of Christ’, and eager to insist that the alliance of church and Empire was part of God’s providential plan for the world.
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07-14-2018, 01:03 PM | #223 | ||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Such a gracious post this blind squirrel of biblical proportion genius is shy to crack your nut. But :
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He calls the Gospel of Peter the cross gospel, because it has a walking talking cross in it. From the gospel : Quote:
But then upon further reflection I realized the symbolic meaning in the story ; that was simply spoken, or spoken simply, in what was common story telling methods back then (common enough to also be used in the stories in the canonical gospels (technically, spoken using mythological terms, imagery, and methods)) : The meaning being that, the death and resurrection of Jesus was very important to God, and that message was even proclaimed to the dead. I don't know why they just couldn't say it in plain English, so to speak. I guess they enjoyed mind games back then -- what else did they have for entertainment? So in the end, I cut the silly Gospel of Peter some slack. Quote:
And doggone-it Untohim, there is no oral record. I sure wish there was. We only have written records. YouTube would have been nice. But alas, more "miracles" have been discovered since back then. Quote:
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So Paul was clearly closer to the oral stories than the authors of the gospels. But now that you bring it up, when was Saul "killing Christians?" First. There weren't any Christians at that point. And the timeline? He had to be killing somewhere between Jesus leaving his brother and the disciples behind, and Paul becoming buddies with them? Jesus died circa 30ad. Paul was writing his epistles in the 50s and 60s, to established communities (churches) of Jesus followers. Stories of Jesus had to be flying around everywhere. Paul was prolly spreading them in his oral speakings to the communities. The timeline? Was Paul a kid when Jesus died? or was he being trained as a Pharisee? He seemed to be an equal to Peter and James. Did he only kill Christians for a week or two? And why Damascus? Why not kill the disciples? Wouldn't killing the head of the snake make more sense, and be more effective at eliminating the new Jesus cult? The timeline is troubling. It is indeed like I'm blind. Where's the world's biggest nut? But something just don't add up about Paul. I find it odd that he hung with Peter, James, and John, and other of the earliest followers of Jesus, and he doesn't have gospel like stories about Jesus in his epistles. I also find it odd that the gospels don't speak of Paul. Not once! Not one time is Paul mentioned in any of the gospels, including the one attributed to Luke. Quote:
Thanks for you gracious reply bro Untohim.
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07-16-2018, 04:44 AM | #224 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Just to summarize the thesis of the thread: it is that the Jesus movement became what Witness Lee derogatively referred to as "Christianity" because Christ did not return quickly as expected. This created the second great crisis in the faith of his followers. The first was, of course, Jesus's crucifixion. A third fact of fateful significance in the development of Christianity was the rejection of Christ by the majority of the Jews and His acceptance by a growing number of gentiles. This acceptance was facilitated by the Hellenization of Judaism and the Gospel and the church's internalization of Greco-Roman style government.
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07-16-2018, 05:39 PM | #225 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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07-17-2018, 08:01 AM | #226 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Nee and Lee would grow up hearing that Western missionaries were Christian Imperialists. So to them it's likely that they considered Christianity poor even before their conversion.
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07-18-2018, 07:40 AM | #227 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Christianity was born of the clash between Judaic and Greco-Roman societies. This clash can be illustrated pointedly in the conflict regarding the meaning of Divine Law. Yale Professor Christine Hayes discusses this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-sv09t15hg&app=desktop The characterization of Divine Law as utterly rational and in harmony with nature was widespread throughout the Hellenistic world of late antiquity. This created a cognitive dissonance for the Jews who's Divine Law didn't look like the Greco-Roman definition of Divine Law but rather more like human law grounded in the will of a sovereign that doesn't necessarily conform to truth and has irrational aspects. This was particularly true of the impurity laws, the dietary laws and the laws concerning circumcision which became an embarrassment to the Jews. Philo bridged the divide by equating Mosaic law with divine natural law and transferring to it the characteristic attributes of divine natural law which were that it was rational, true, universal, immutable, and unwritten. To accomplish this task he used the allegorical method extensively. Paul accepted the basic Greco-Roman dichotomy between divine natural law on the one hand and human positive law on the other hand. However his response to the incongruity between biblical and classical conceptions of Divine Law was the opposite of Philo's. Paul represented the Mosaic law as particular temporary, non-rational and not conducive to virtue. Hayes argues that Paul's representation of the Mosaic law in positive law terms was a strategic accommodation to his gentile audience. Particularizing the Mosaic law enabled Paul to argue that it did not obligate Gentiles, who's entry into "God's community" was required if the end-time visions of the prophets were to be fulfilled, was affected through faith.
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07-19-2018, 05:09 PM | #228 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Good question. I just assumed they had some kind of conversion experience, a metanoia. But maybe not. Maybe they grew up in their respective denominations, learned there, and expanded upon it, with little influence from Chinese culture. But that's doubtful.
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While written law can be reinterpreted, divine natural law is very stubborn ; the latter immutable, the former not. One written by God's hand, if you will, and the other written by man's hand. Quote:
The Greco-Roman's sure got the Jews dancing, to prove that the Torah Law, or Mosaic Law, was divine law, and as rational and immutable as nature's law. So there was a whole lotta syncretism going on, when Jesus burst on the scene. There was Philo, and also 4 Maccabees, written in the first and second century. Greco-Roman Hellenism back then was to the Jews what science is to Christianity today. So the same struggle is going on today, between revealed book law and nature's law ; between religion and science. Quote:
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I won't get into the law of the members, cuz Paul had a much better new law to speak of, called, the law of Christ. Was/is this new law, rational, true, universal, immutable, and unwritten? If so then it is Greco-Roman type divine law. Sooooo ... introducing : THE LOGOS - the creative sustaining force of the cosmos, according Heraclitus, and the prologue of the gospel attributed to John. The logos syncretizes Christianity with the Greco-Roman. Writing that the logos became flesh, Hellenized Jesus. So the new law -- the law of Christ -- is Greco-Roman. But according to the record Jesus, while referencing nature here and there, lived by the Father's law.
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07-20-2018, 06:55 AM | #229 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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For Jesus compassion not holiness was the essential character of God. He criticized the Judaic purity laws. The Jews considered untithed produce to be impure. Jesus criticizes this saying "but woe to you Pharisees for you tithe mint and rue and every herb and neglect justice and the love of God." Luke 11:42 Samaritans and the dead were considered unclean. In the famous parable, Jesus praised the impure Samaritan who showed compassion for an impure "half-dead" man. Jesus conversed with and exorcised unclean spirits, and touched and healed people with leprosy and other defiling diseases. He shared table fellowship with "tax collectors and sinners" the impure of society. So, Jesus not only taught the principles of divine natural law, he lived them by practicing free healing, eating openly with the impure of society and living simply in harmony with God the Father who's law wasn't merely the arbitrary will of a sovereign but the expression of God's loving care that he saw immanent in nature.
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07-20-2018, 09:17 AM | #230 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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07-23-2018, 05:43 PM | #231 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Greek believers at Corinth did not care for the corporate church life, but cared instead for their personal and individual interests. This produced division. Whenever there are divisions there cannot be the temple of God. Therefore, after covering certain crucial matters in chapters one and two, Paul indicates in chapter three that the Corinthians are completely wrong in caring for their individual interests and not for God's temple, God's corporate building.If Greek thinking was so inimical to the church, then surely Jesus couldn't have been influenced by it. In fact, according to Lee, Jesus couldn't have been affected by anything human, secular or worldly. So to Lee the Greek thinking that crept into the church was "poor poor Christianity". Both the Judaizers and the Hellenizers were off. Jesus and the church must admit no earthly, human, cultural origin. Ancient Christians did not consider it accidental that the Incarnation occurred at the historical moment of conjunction between the Jewish religion, Greek philosophy, and the Roman Empire.Tarnas says that the so called Church fathers recognized cultural and philosophical influences and believed that the convergence of ideas was of Providential origins. To Lee that was evidence of their corruption. Lee was consistent in this regard in that he denied that his Chinese background influenced his own thinking even though someone with any knowledge of Taoism could see that his theology coincidentally correlated with that way of thinking. Having spent 13 years under his teaching I came to believe that he was unconscious of and in denial about the influence of his own cultural origin on his thinking. That would mean that he deceived himself before he went on to deceive others. This is not unusual. The most convincing liars are those who first lie to themselves. Don't you think, that based on what I have already presented below, it's warranted to conclude that if Jesus' critique of the Judaic purity system was informed by a Hellenistic Judaism that he based this view on the teaching he received from his parents and the local synagogue? Would the local practice of Judaism in Galilee by the first century have been a Hellenized practice? After all, the region had been under Greek influence for over 300 years. The character of Jesus teaching is powerful but not in the way of formal Greek philosophy except as it is presented in the Gospel of John which is probably less a reflection of the historical Jesus manner of discourse than that of the author. He was, rather, more like the Greek Cynic philosopher. The historical Jesus was, then, a peasant Jewish Cynic. His peasant village was close enough to a Greco-Roman city like Sepphoris that sight and knowledge of Cynicism are neither inexplicable nor unlikely. But his work was among the farms and villages of Lower Galilee. His strategy, implicitly for himself and explicitly for his followers, was the combination of free healing and common eating, a religious and economic egalitarianism that negated alike and at once the hierarchical and patronal normalcies of Jewish religion and Roman power. And, lest he himself be interpreted as simply the new broker of a new God, he moved on constantly, settling down neither at Nazareth nor Capernaum. He was neither broker nor mediator but, somewhat paradoxically, the announcer that neither should exist between humanity and divinity or between humanity and itself. Miracle and parable, healing and eating were calculated to force individuals into unmediated physical and spiritual contact with God and unmediated physical and spiritual contact with one another. He announced, in other words, the brokerless kingdom of God. Crossan, John Dominic. The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant . HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.If this is true then "Poor poor Christianity" goes right back to Jesus himself. Crossan goes on: I propose that at the heart of any Christianity there is always, covertly or overtly, a dialectic between a historically read Jesus and a theologically read Christ. Christianity is always, in other words, a Jesus/Christ/ianity. The New Testament itself contains a spectrum of divergent theological interpretations, each of which focuses on different aspects or clusters of aspects concerning the historical Jesus, or better, different historical Jesuses. It may be, for example, only the sayings, or only the miracles, or only the death, that is of primary concern for a given tradition, but any of those emphases presumes divergent historical Jesuses who said something, did something, and died in a certain way. I think, therefore, that different visions of the historical Jesus present a certain dialectic with different theological interpretations and that the New Testament itself is an obvious expression of that plurality’s inevitability. Crossan, John Dominic. The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant . HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.That to me sounds more like Christianity as it exists in the real world past and present and the local church movement is part of it.
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07-26-2018, 08:53 AM | #232 | |||||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Lots to chew on.
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No wonder we stopped believing in Lee ; by seeking to be uniquely new, and superior, he contradicted the very book he claimed to be basing it on. Quote:
There's loads of evidence. Just one : ekklēsia, a Greek polis word ; as in, "upon this rock I will build my church." We know Jesus did not say this. He spoke Aramaic. The word in Aramaic is ladoth, a old Semitic term. Both terms mean "assembly." However, that's neither here nor there, cuz we don’t know the exact Aramaic words that Jesus used As a result, unless more documents from back then are discovered, in Aramaic, we'll never get at the historical Jesus. Cuz our record of him, and what he did and said, is a translation. Quote:
I'm reading Constantine's Bible, a book about the formation of the canon. In his buildup to 'why the canon,' he speaks of the influence of the Greek polis philosophy on the Christian movement. Not just the beginning of the movement, but the structure of the Christians institution, and the need for a canon. Quote:
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07-31-2018, 09:06 AM | #233 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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08-02-2018, 08:27 PM | #234 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But the actual meaning was, upon this divine revelation -- "You are the Christ/messiah, the Son of the living God" -- I will build my church. That's a far cry from where the RCC puts it. Jesus was preaching the kingdom of God, and that is what the assembly-ekklesia was all about.
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08-10-2018, 07:43 AM | #235 | |||
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08-11-2018, 08:31 PM | #236 | |||||
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08-12-2018, 08:46 AM | #237 | ||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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"Three hundred years of hellenistic influence just before the time of Jesus is an especially important factor. Hellenistic influence has been downplayed by scholars in the interest of buttressing the picture of Jesus appearing in the midst of a thoroughly Jewish culture. Unfortunately for this view, archeological evidence of hellenization in Galilee continues to increase. Quote:
Accurate work got done through translation in the Roman Empire everyday. Otherwise how would the empire function effectively? I'm not denying the significance of translation on language or meaning. But, to conclude that if translation took place accurate meaning was not conveyed is too much unless you can show positively how and why. Quote:
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08-12-2018, 09:37 PM | #238 | ||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Great response. Thanks for taking the time to reply. And I'm sure the hordes reading this thread appreciate it too.
I know you know that translations are hard. That's why we've got so many of them. And now, we even have footnotes to explain the translated wording. Not just Lee, but The Net Bible to boot. Quote:
"2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]" I've heard plenty of Christians saying that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove their Christian faith. The truth is, these finds, and the Nag Hammadi finds, are disturbing the Christian faith. We're finding out more and more how they thought back then. Sound minded Christians today would consider that their superstitious mindset was silly to the absurd ; some of it, for sure. And when we realize how they thought back then, and apply it to the stories we consider authoritative, it's disturbing. I mean, the 'walking talking cross' found in the Gospel of Peter is just absurd. But so is the virgin birth found in the canonical gospels. That's how they thought back then, 2000 years ago ... get that, back 2000 years ago. We know very little of what went on back then. Only some writings that have managed to survive, that can only tell very little. So finding new records is a sensation to the scholars, and it trickles down to ordinary Christian believers, thanks to the web. Quote:
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08-14-2018, 08:21 AM | #239 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Apostasy was a word we used to refer to it. And we believed that God himself is going to restore the church back to its original state or, perhaps even a better state. In that sense the Lord's recovery was part of the larger Christian restoration movement. So obviously it's a vast and controversial subject about which there is no agreement among Christians generally. I've been pursuing the hypothesis that Hellenism which is sometimes blamed for the apostasy was actually an influence from the beginning possibly even on Jesus himself. I'm investigating the historical evidence. But I admit it isn't a conclusively proven theory and I haven't insisted that anybody accept it as a condition in order to participate on this thread. I welcome all points of view.
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08-15-2018, 07:43 PM | #240 | ||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Tracking the views reveals some are. I don't get it. LCer's and exLCer's are very familiar with seeing most of Christianity as poor. We got lots of that in the LC. I still see it that way.
That's why I'm interested in this thread. I too would like to know when and where it went south. Quote:
Things had to be explained. Jesus' baptism for one thing. And how about that body that could walk thru walls, and disguise itself so that even those that were close to him couldn't recognize him? What about that body? Was it just a phantom, a seeming? And what about the kingdom? What happened to that? The Romans still ruled the holy land. So very early on there were differences of opinions about Jesus springing up. Which one was the Christianity that Jesus taught and practiced? Those that weren't took Christianity south. And reactions against them didn't help either. Quote:
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08-17-2018, 07:25 AM | #241 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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To the Christian isn't unquestioning faith is a virtue? If so, doesn't knowledge or the pursuit of it corrupt them? Hasn't a frequent poster in Alt Views told us this many times? His method includes dismissing facts and sources that might get in the way of his dogma which he calls "The Faith". Perhaps other readers of this thread share that brother's aversion to knowledge but are simply more reticent about expressing it in a forum where it might be challenged.
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08-26-2018, 01:14 PM | #242 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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So maybe they still hold Christianity as poor, but only Imperial Christianity, that was born with Constantine, they hold as poor, and that to them is when Christianity became poor. They hold the traditional Protestant view. Not all of it was/is poor. In fact, those thinking Roman Catholicism made Christianity poor, stand on what the RCC founded : The Canon ; the selections of the books that make up our Bible ; that we now stand on as the very Word of God. And that to them is the antithesis of poor. Problem solved. Christianity no longer poor.
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08-27-2018, 09:00 AM | #243 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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While Lee admitted there was an element of Christ in Christianity, as he explained it, in Christianity Christ was mixed with something it shouldn't be. Metaphorically he referred to this as "leaven". When I was in the local church I was fully indoctrinated into this kind of thinking and I accepted it wholeheartedly. But historical research shows that non-Christ elements such as Hellenism were there from the beginning. And, the perfectionism implied in this kind of thinking is Neo-platonic and doesn't seem to be attainable in this world.
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08-29-2018, 08:21 PM | #244 | ||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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08-31-2018, 06:39 AM | #245 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Isn't it remarkable that 32 years (approximately 37 years in your case, I think) after leaving the local church and for all intents and purposes organized Christianity we continue to study and be fascinated by the Bible. Unfortunately the Evangelical Christians here don't appreciate that because our views don't strictly conform to theirs.
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09-01-2018, 08:49 PM | #246 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I agree that It would be nice to 'hear' from others, 'that were there,' beside Luke's (or whoever) secondhand account. The author of Luke, writing decades after the events he tells of, admits to gathering up all the stories available at that time. And the Pentecost event was one of them. But as told all the disciples were there. Why don't we hear from them? What's up with that? Early church father Irenaeus, late 2nd c., said : "There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."That's why there are only four gospels? But there were 12 disciples. Why not 12 gospels. Wouldn't that be better to base the number of gospels on, rather than the winds, pillars, and corners of the universe? And we have many "Acts." We've got : "The Acts of John" ; "The Acts of Paul" ; "The Acts of Peter" ; and a dozen others. So why only one Acts in our canon, by a guy that's gathering stories, and telling them secondhand? The Pentecost was a giant event. Nothing like that had ever happened, or happened since. It must have blown every bodies mind. Wouldn't everyone want to tell that story? I guess not. Also, like you pointed out, no Recovery or Restoration will ever bring that back. The Eucharist is a very poor substitute. It's just killing Jesus all over again. Quote:
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09-06-2018, 10:41 AM | #247 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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"An explosion of the collective imagination signals change, and the first Christian century experienced just such an explosion. It marks the time as uncertain and it registers an outpouring of human energy and intellectual activity in the production of myths.
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09-07-2018, 07:46 AM | #248 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I'm reading The Lost Books of the Bible. I'm amazed that during the early days of Christianity, during the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and even the 4th century, those that called themselves Christians made up all kinds of mythologies about Jesus. Maybe that's why Burton Mack considered the canonical gospels mythology ... or at least one of his reasons. To make my point I'd like to present something from The Gospel of Nicodemus, or The Acts of Pilate : Acts of PilateThis is obvious mythology ....
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09-09-2018, 03:16 AM | #249 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-09-2018, 06:47 AM | #250 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Most scholars today agree the idea of a crucified messiah starts with the historical Jesus who was actually crucified. The origin of the metaphysical elements of the narrative is still hotly debated.
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09-09-2018, 09:17 AM | #251 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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We eat our messiah, that was a human sacrifice.
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09-11-2018, 08:08 AM | #252 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-11-2018, 09:03 AM | #253 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-11-2018, 09:33 AM | #254 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-11-2018, 10:35 AM | #255 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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And yes, that includes sacrificing the human life to "gods". After all, soldiers sacrifice their lives all the time. Many of these megalomaniacs that start these horrific wars are atheists, which is simply another way of saying they see themselves as Gods. The difference between them and Jesus is that Jesus sacrificed His life for us and they want us to sacrifice our lives for them.
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09-11-2018, 01:43 PM | #256 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I'm talking about human sacrifice and cannibalism, like the Aztecs did everyday, by cutting out the heart while beating, and tossing the body down the stairs, for the owner of the sacrificed person to take home and eat.
I'm not talking about sacrificing your money at Walmart, to buy a sacrificed cow, for a burnt offering on the BBQ. I'm talking about human sacrifice, and eating it. Speaking generally, following the evolution and development of human history, human sacrifice to a deity, and eating it, was practiced by early man. Then, as typified by Abraham's sacrifice of Issac, sacrifices to propitiate God was switched from human sacrifice, to animal sacrifice. In the Bible human sacrifice is punishable by stoning. Zeek spoke about the sacrificed messiah. I just pointed out that our scarified messiah was a human sacrifice, that we're still eating today. This is just a type of the old practice of early man, of sacrificing human's to propitiate a deity, and then eating it. Something God forbid in the OT.
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09-11-2018, 03:20 PM | #257 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
The only exception to this rule is Jesus.
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09-11-2018, 03:40 PM | #258 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-11-2018, 04:09 PM | #259 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Yes. Roman Emperors all considered themselves deities. Likewise with Kings who had "divine right to rule". Stalin and Mao were atheists, just a convoluted way of saying they were Gods. Yes, these rulers "ate the sacrifice". Think of Nero burning down half the city so he could get a good break on the purchase of the land.
The rule is that human govt requires a human sacrifice from the subjects, Jesus is the exception to the rule, in His case the human sacrifice was from the Lord. In every other govt the rulers eat the human sacrifice, in the heavenly kingdom the subjects eat the sacrifice from the Lord.
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09-11-2018, 06:17 PM | #260 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-11-2018, 07:34 PM | #261 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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What you are missing in your insight is that it was not the Christians that crucified Jesus, nor was it according to Jewish law, nor was it according to Roman law. He was crucified by the religious and political leaders as a matter of expediency. That is what they have been doing for all of recorded history. In Egypt they slaughtered the Jewish males because they were becoming a problem. All of the Roman emperors did this, particularly Nero. All of the kings and emperors have done this. Hitler did this, etc. There are two sides to the Lord's human sacrifice and you have only looked at one of the sides. Yes, Jesus gave His life for us. But on the other hand it was the grasping leaders trying to hold onto their position and power that took his life. They are the ones who performed the human sacrifice. Consider the Lord's word to those that asked for a sign. If the sky is red at night you say you will have peace tomorrow, but if the sky is red in the morning you say it will be stormy. On the one hand Jesus' death was the end of the day for his followers, the sky was red at night, in the coming age we will have peace. But for those that took His life they saw it as the dawn of their day. This age we are in is an evil and adulterous age ruled by those who took the Lord's life (which according to you was a human sacrifice and cannibalism). They are not simply interested in killing the Lord, they also want to take His widow's house, i.e. "eating" Him. They are in for a storm. How can abortion be viewed as anything but human sacrifice? Why? Expediency. So stop pretending like "human sacrifice" is something superstitious people from long ago practiced, it is taking place today more than ever and is at the very focal point of our political debate. I realize that you like to draw Abraham and Isaac into this little debate to show that human sacrifice is in the OT, but that is a very misguided interpretation. Yes, Abraham had set his mind to offer up Isaac, but that was never God's plan. The OT laws and practices don't come from Abraham, they come from God. This experience demonstrated to Isaac that the way of faith is the crucified life. That was the point, not to sacrifice Isaac to God, but to train up Isaac in the way he should go. The real OT references to human sacrifice are firstly the Passover. They put the blood of the lamb on the doorpost to signify that in this family a lamb had already been sacrificed. This refers back to the babies killed by the Egyptians. The Passover was God's justice in response to the human sacrifice the Egyptians had performed. Secondly in Deuteronomy the Bible says that God is dispossessing the people because they cause their sons and daughters to pass through the fire, and they cause their seed to pass through the fire. The term "fetus" means "seed". This was a reference to abortion and infanticide. Human sacrifice. This is still done today, we don't toss these dead babies in the trash, we incinerate them, make them to pass through the fire. The medical personnel that perform these are modern day priests to Molech and Baal.
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09-12-2018, 09:18 AM | #262 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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And by your wide ranging definition God sacrifice all but a handful of the human race, and the critters, with the flood. As I've been taught since a kid it was God's plan to sacrifice the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. If that's true, a human sacrifice OF HIS SON was part of His plan.
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09-12-2018, 10:24 AM | #263 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-12-2018, 04:15 PM | #264 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
So how does the fact that God used a proxy change the human sacrifice of His son?
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09-12-2018, 04:40 PM | #265 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The one who demanded Jesus death was not God the father, but Satan. The one who devours widow's houses is not God the Father but Satan. That is why it says "For God so loved the world that He gave His Son". It was the price that was required to redeem us from sin and He was willing to pay it.
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09-12-2018, 09:21 PM | #266 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-13-2018, 03:24 AM | #267 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-13-2018, 05:36 AM | #268 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
That is only one side of the coin, the law of God would never have demanded death if it had not been for sin, and it was Satan that tempted man to sin. My point is that Satan has tried to raise the price on the salvation of man to the uttermost.
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09-13-2018, 05:38 AM | #269 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-13-2018, 06:06 AM | #270 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse on our behalf, as it is written, cursed is the one hanging from a tree." (Gal 3.13)
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09-13-2018, 07:16 AM | #271 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for [a]murderers of fathers and [b]murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
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09-13-2018, 08:46 AM | #272 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
lol ... and I thought you were getting it.
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09-13-2018, 08:52 AM | #273 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
God : "Satan made me do it. Satan made me need the human sacrifice of my son."
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09-13-2018, 10:17 AM | #274 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
And I thought you might tell us what it is.
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09-13-2018, 10:31 AM | #275 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I did brother. I pointed out the eating of our crucified messiah.
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09-13-2018, 02:25 PM | #276 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Your point is that "we eat the crucified savior" when we eat the Lord's supper?
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09-13-2018, 04:14 PM | #277 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But it's become more civilized, as now, to Christians, it's is symbolic, and not literal ; exempting transubstantiation that says it is the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. I guess we haven't become completely civilized. As witnessed by animal sacrifice ; a improved barbarism. The Hebrews sacrificed animals as a propitiation for sin, as a substitutionary atonement. Really? Their Torah tells that the sacrifice was a pleasing aroma, "a sweet savour unto the LORD." Really? Was it like getting a whiff a neighbors' BBQ? God smells? Really? Is He human, even before "becoming human?" Don't get me going. If this Red Heifer -- referenced in the hermeneutic thread -- really does mean the building of the 3rd temple, the Jews will resume animal sacrifice. Which means they are no more civilized than stone and bronze age peoples. It's obviously an ancient superstition ; that was in very common currency in the 1st century (the Iron age). Which is why it was attributed to Jesus. The need for a sacrifice was in the zeitgeist back then. That Jesus was a sacrifice would have been readily acceptable, and even better, a once and for all sacrifice ; another improvement ... of sorts (except the devil is in the details). But c'mon? Haven't we outgrown such silliness? Surely the God of the universe wouldn't be so uncivilized. Oh, but, I forgot. The God of the Hebrews has a history of uncivilized actions. No wonder they had to propitiate their God ... out of fear. Which at bottom is why we still eat Jesus ; a human sacrifice ; like God needs a death of something, of not just critters, but even His son, to forgive sins. That's a mean God, not a "God is love" God. That God earns fear, and the need for propitiation by scared humans. Not unless to God, torture and beastliness is love. Who knows? The heavenly lexicon may have different meanings to our earthly one. I certainly don't know. I'm just concerned about God. I don't like "Him" depicted as a beast.
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09-13-2018, 04:59 PM | #278 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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How are you so blind? Do you even know where your tax dollars go? You do realize that we have done away with habeas corpus for our enemies. You do realize that we have pretended to outlaw torture until it was more convenient to just "redefine" it.
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09-13-2018, 06:12 PM | #279 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-14-2018, 05:55 AM | #280 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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You are saying that sacrifice was uncivilized and superstitious. If I have understood that correctly then I have a whole host of other questions that I still don't understand. 1. What is the purpose of life other than not dying? 2. How can you have faith, hope and love without the expression of these? 3. Without faith, hope and love -- how can we have art? It seems to me in your little mind you have created a world without sacrifice, without love, or hope or faith, and without art. Yet you think that is a "more civilized" world? You have created a world where the goal of human life is to not die, which you haven't provided any option for that to happen, so it will soon be a very depressed world. Hopefully I have misunderstood, so by all means I eagerly await your response. It also seems quite sad to me that you think the Lord's sacrifice on the cross is the product of archaic superstition. That suggests to me you haven't received the Lord's redemptive work by faith. What is even sadder is that an unbeliever would be the moderator for a Christian website, being a regular contributor for 10+ years?! Why?
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09-14-2018, 10:25 PM | #281 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I think we need to come back to the purpose of this thread : trying to figure out where and when Christianity made a wrong turn. I'm presently reading The Acts of Paul and Thecla. As the Wiki points out it's an apocryphal story written during the time of John the apostle. In other words, during the apostolic period, around the same time the gospels were written, prolly before John, Luke, and Acts. It reflects their gift for storytelling back then. Needless to say Thecla is a supernatural wonder woman. In her teens she was engaged to be married. Til she sat in her window for 3 days, without eating or drinking, enraptured to Paul's teaching in the house next door. Then she became a virgin companion of Paul, and a servant of Jesus Christ. She was arrested and put on fire at the stake. But God brought water up of the ground, and from the sky, and put the fire out. Then they tied her to a she-lion and put her in the auditorium with wild beasts. The she-lion killed 2 of the beasts, but God had to take care of the rest. But not before she jumped into the killer fish pool, and baptized herself, whereupon all the fish came to the top dead. And they all glorified God at the wonders. Later she moved into a cave. And anyone entering her cave were immediately healed, or the demons came out of them with a noise. She put the doctors out of business. But none of this fabulous story is my point. My point is Tertullian's response to it. As Wiki points out, Tertullian (155 c. to 240 c.) "inveighed against its use in the advocacy of a woman's right to preach and to baptize." And that's where I think Christianity possibly took a wrong turn, via the proto-orthodox banning women from leadership.
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09-15-2018, 01:56 AM | #282 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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You reiterated this concept of "superstitious religion" so please answer my questions: You are saying that sacrifice was uncivilized and superstitious. If I have understood that correctly then I have a whole host of other questions that I still don't understand. 1. What is the purpose of life other than not dying? 2. How can you have faith, hope and love without the expression of these? 3. Without faith, hope and love -- how can we have art? of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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09-15-2018, 08:56 AM | #283 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Yes, I'm saying the sacrifice of humans or animals is uncivilized and superstition. Moreover, I'll go even further and say, that there are deities, or a deity, that propitiates because of it is the invention of man. Those deities don't exist. Okay, they might exist, but they don't care if I burn an animal. If they were any kind of real deity they'd be against it. Just as God should have been against the sacrifice of His son. He could find other ways to forgive us. He's God for-gosh-sakes. Surely if He had to, He could invent a new kinder more humane way. Plus, there's hints enough in the gospels that Jesus thought God would intervene and setup His Kingdom on earth : "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" ; The disciples will judge over the 12 tribes ; "there be some standing here" ; "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." As the story goes, He didn't. If God is God, and he has at least human mores, He would never allow such a thing as human sacrifice. He didn't in the Old Testament. And I would think, I would hope, we're long past all that. The Jews restoring animal sacrifice should embarrass them. It will most everyone else, except the Santeria or some other crazy superstitious religion. Quote:
Z : 1. What is the purpose of life other than not dying?Oh not that question! Z : 2. How can you have faith, hope and love without the expression of these?I don't know I just do. Z : 3. Without faith, hope and love -- how can we have art?Those must have existed 75,000 yrs ago. They just found archaeological evidence of art going back that far. Z : of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?Strawman.
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09-15-2018, 09:47 AM | #284 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Not Godly is by definition "unholy". So then your post makes it very clear that you consider the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. Or did I misunderstand?
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09-15-2018, 08:37 PM | #285 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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In the blood of the Lamb There is power, power, wonder-working power In the precious blood of the Lamb… I sang that growing up. Even as a kid I was repulsed by it. It was a great tune, but POWER IN THE BLOOD? Why? How awful! So there's the blood of the beasts (OT), and blood of the Lamb (NT). Obviously they believed in blood sacrifices in the OT, and that was carried over into the NT. But actually they were both carryovers from the ancient early days of man, when they sacrificed humans to a deity, thinking it would win favor ; like the Aztecs that believed daily human sacrifices were necessary for the sun to rise in the morning. In other words, a superstition. You as a scientist surely know this. Brother Ohio, over yonder on the hermeneutics thread, standing on the Bible stated : Forgiveness of sins demands the shedding of blood. To me that sounds like what a violent alcoholic that beats his wife and kids every night would say. Not something coming from a God. I remember saying something like, I don't like God depicted as a beast. Any God requiring blood to forgive is just that kind of beast. That God is not the real God. That's a fake God. A invention of man, carrying it over from the Stone age, and Bronze age, into the Iron age. Ages we're long past. Or should be.
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09-16-2018, 11:47 AM | #286 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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God respects our labor, so He doesn't disrespect this form of currency "for God is not unrighteous to forget your work and the love which ye showed toward his name, in that ye ministered unto the saints, and still do minister." But this currency does demonstrate how unfair or uneven the worldly system is. Some CEO's have pay packages in excess of $50 million a year, whereas the average salary worldwide is $18,000 (half of the entire world's population makes less than that). That is we value the sweat of a 1 hr. of a CEO's time greater than an entire year for more than 3 billion people. So then, if you were God what would you value? Cows? Salt? Gold? Sweat? God values Blood. That means God values life. According to you this is superstitious, antiquated, and inhumane. Really? What does BP value (the company responsible for the deepwater horizon oil spill)? How about Merck (you remember the scandal with Vioxx)? Exxon (of the Exxon Valdez fame)? What about Ford and Firestone with their exploding tires? And who can forget Union Carbide certainly not those still alive in Bhopal. No, if I were God the only thing I'd value is life and wouldn't care less about your paper money. So the Aztecs believed in daily human sacrifices, interesting, didn't know that. But obviously completely irrelevant to a forum on the Local Church and the Christian faith. Unless of course you are trying to show how much more civilized they were than us. 1 human per day, that is 365 a year? In the last 100 years we have been killing over 1 million people a year in wars. So what is that 0.1%? That does not include purges, genocides and gas chambers. Hopefully your claim that we are now more civilized was designed as a joke. Surely you don't believe that. Hitler demonstrates humanity becoming civilized and less superstitious? How about the Rape of Nanking? I don't even want to discuss the third world countries like China, Russia, Rwanda, etc. But what about the US, that shining beacon of light? Other than the atomic bomb, and a nuclear arsenal that can incinerate the world, what's not to like? Oh yeah, we now have made blowing up people very impersonal, simply push a button in Washington DC, and a missile incinerates a village halfway around the world. In the old days, those superstitious, bloody, uncivilized days, no one would think of blowing up a funeral party. They would kill most of the men, take the women and children as slaves or servants. But now, no one values human life, push a button blow them all up. And this is not in some attempt to kill genuine enemies, this is when we accidentally killed some innocents and we now want to obliterate the whole town so there are no witnesses. You are seriously cracked if you think we are now more civilized. God values blood, obviously governments and corporations don't. And don't talk about animal sacrifices. You seriously think that the way we kill cows, sheep, pigs and chickens is more humane now than when it was done in the open, by priests, according to the law? Why do you think people pay extra for kosher meat, it certainly is simply the Jews and Muslims.
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09-16-2018, 01:38 PM | #287 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
-1
Brother ZNP you have totally defeated me. That we are more civilized is a delusion. We've just got it so we kill them over there, while we live just fine over here. You claim that we don't value blood, but God does. But we, the human race, do value blood. We value shedding it. And, according to the record, so does God. Matthew, Mark, and Luke mention Jesus shedding his blood for the many, for remission of sin. John doesn't mention any of that. John just says we drink Jesus' blood. If early man, sacrificing humans to deities, and later sacrificing animals, for the same reason, were uncivilized, and we today are uncivilized, what good did Jesus shedding his blood do? John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." But the sacrificial Lamb of God did no such thing. Sin existed before that shedding of innocent blood, and still exists today. When was it taken away? It's obviously symbolic. Such sacrifices were the norm back then. Once human sacrifice to deities were the norm. Then animal sacrifice was the norm. We were coming along. Then, according to the record, God brought back human sacrifice. Was He disappointed we switched to animal sacrifice? So now we eat that human sacrifice. You are right, we aren't less uncivilized. We celebrate the drinking of the blood of a human sacrifice. And we don't see it as superstition? When it's all superstition. It sprang out of superstition -- sacrificing humans to a deity -- continued as superstition -- sacrificing animals to a deity -- and continues today -- when we drink the blood, and eat the flesh, of a human sacrifice. How is this not superstition?
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09-16-2018, 03:07 PM | #288 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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We slaughter one million unborn babies a year. Worldwide ~150,000 unborn are killed daily. That's almost 2 per second! 2 abortions each and every second! Sacrificing 1 human a day sounds real civilized!
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09-16-2018, 04:03 PM | #289 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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John did not say that those whose sins would be washed away would then become sinless or that their flesh would be eliminated. Taking away the sins opens the way to fellowship with God, walk with God and be one with God. You simply need one person like the Apostle Paul, a man involved with persecuting and killing the saints, to demonstrate that this is true.
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09-17-2018, 09:39 PM | #290 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
An unquestionable superstition :
Jewish ritual chicken slaughter endures despite concerns "Many of those who participate in it believe it absolves them of their sins, which are transferred to the chicken. The slaughtered chicken can then be donated to the poor or another worthy cause if not kept for the family." https://www.yahoo.com/news/jewish-ri...165650371.html
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09-18-2018, 05:11 AM | #291 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-19-2018, 07:07 AM | #292 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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If Jesus didn't sacrifice himself for something it seems like his crucifixion would have been in vain or, in other words, meaningless.Even though the gospel accounts say that Jesus informed his disciples that he would be killed and rise again Mark 8:31, they were amazed and astonished when it happened. The needed some rationale in order to understand it. Some scholars think that Jesus expected to be an earthly messianic king and therefore did not anticipate his crucifixion and therefore wouldn't have taught the disciples about it in advance. The idea of substitutionary sacrifice was alive and well in 1st century Judaic Temple practice. So it isn't a stretch to suppose his followers sought meaning in Jesus's crucifixion by viewing it as analogous to sacrifices that gave them access to God. The elaboration the theme of divine sacrifice by Paul in the epistles would have been a further development of a theme that was near the beginning of the post crucifixion understanding of Jesus by his followers. If we consider that any doctrinal development outside of Jesus's own explicit teachings can be part of the original faith, then the theme of sacrifice could be. On that basis, sacrifice as a theme escapes the category of a deviant version of Christianity even if Jesus didn't teach about it himself.
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09-20-2018, 12:21 PM | #293 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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So they used what would readily be accepted by those that believed things like, their sins could be forgiven by putting them on a scapegoat. Only according to them Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for their sins ; no more need of the scapegoat, or the sacrifices at the temple, that they say Jesus scoffed at. And the later the gospel the more highfalutin their rationals became. However, their stories are all we've got. We don't hear from Jesus himself.He didn't write a book. Thus we can't be sure if the historical Jesus actually taught the ultimate sacrifice of the cross. It may just be wishful thinking. Why wishful? Cuz, just like the scapegoat, there's no way to prove sins are actually forgiven without knowing what God thinks. I accepted Jesus at a young age. So I grew up thinking my sins were forgiven, even the ones that came along over the years. Are they? How should I know? Supposedly I'll know at the judgement seat. But then I'm told all I have to say is, I accepted Jesus as my ransom, and I get a free pass. So there's no way I can know that now. And the authors of the gospels, and Paul, aren't writing back to tell us if it is so.
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09-21-2018, 07:31 AM | #294 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Your would think that when someone wished to know the history of early Christianity they would be able to find the answers to important questions by going to the New Testament book entitled The Acts of the Apostles. But that title seems to be a misnomer since apart from Peter and Paul accounts of the Apostles are sketchy or completely absent.
Acts is apparently not intended to be a story about the origins of the early churches either. When Paul gets to Rome he's greeted by Christians who were already there. [Acts 28:15.] How the church was founded there we're not told. Nor does Acts say anything about the origin of the church in Alexandria which was the second biggest city in the Empire. It doesn't say anything about the churches in Galilee whatsoever, which one might be tempted to think was important since that's where Jesus was from and that's where he started his ministry. In Romans 15:18-19 Paul says "for I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles by word and deed by the power of signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God so that from Jerusalem and as far around as Illyricum I have fully proclaimed the good news of Christ."Map showing Illyricum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyri...ricum_SPQR.png Acts says nothing about the origin of churches in Illyricum either. So whatever Acts is meant to be the story of, it isn't a story about the accomplishments of the 12 Apostles in general, the whole story about any Apostle in particular or the story of how the churches took root in many different significant places including the two largest cities in the Roman Empire or Jesus' stomping ground. It even leaves out important details about the lives of Peter and Paul, it's principle characters, including their deaths. Why this is so remains a mystery.
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09-23-2018, 09:23 AM | #295 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Not surprisingly, Witness Lee thought that the book of Acts was essential for understanding the epistles.
Following Acts we have the Epistles. If we would understand the Epistles, we must have a thorough study of the book of Acts. If we do not have the proper understanding of Acts, we shall not be able to understand the Epistles adequately. Many readers of the New Testament do not have the right understanding of the Epistles, because they do not have a clear vision concerning Acts. Therefore, we look to the Lord to open this book to us and give us a clear view of what is revealed in it. [The Life-Study of Acts Chapter 1]F.F Bruce states that "the gaps in Luke's narrative can be made up in some degree by the evidence of Paul's own writings but the reconstruction is doubtful." [New Testament History, pg 330] Referring to the last two verses of the book which leave us hanging as to the fate of the imprisoned Paul, , Bruce admits that Luke has "left us asking questions which he did not regard it as his business to answer, and to which no other writer provides a satisfactory answer." [ibid pg 361]
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09-23-2018, 03:58 PM | #296 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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09-24-2018, 09:27 AM | #297 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I've shown evidence that the purpose of the book known as The Acts of the Apostles is not to recount the stories of the Apostles. Nor is it to tell us how the churches were founded. Whatever Luke's purpose was, if the facts didn't support his thesis he may have suppressed them. A critical reader should be alert for evidence in the text of that possibility. The narrator recounts the stories from the omniscient point of view. The author may also make assertions that go beyond knowledge or even the possibility of knowledge. In any case, it seems to me, before we apply Occam's razor, we need to ascertain what the author's purpose is in this book. Do we not?
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10-04-2018, 08:52 PM | #298 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.” Quote:
Quote:
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10-05-2018, 07:22 AM | #299 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The Greeks understood the rule of three's power and used it as a rhetorical device to persuade to assure and to rule. Where the account of an event in Acts is repeated three times we may reasonably conclude that Luke considered such event to be highly significant to the theme of the book. Acts repeats the story of Paul's conversion three times. The conversion of Cornelius is repeated on three occasions. Paul's turn to the Gentiles is repeated 3 times. The apostle's decree that Jewish and Gentile believers are to engage in the Lord's table together is repeated 3 times. I think we should look at events that are repeated 3 times as strong indicators as to what the theme of the book of Acts may be.
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10-05-2018, 08:54 AM | #300 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Will we then learn that Christianity went poor in Acts? Acts did happen some 20 years after Jesus, when Paul was active. Was Paul a later version of Jesus? or did he misrepresent the historical Jesus? Was Paul the first to make Christianity poor? or did it happen before Paul?
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10-06-2018, 04:17 AM | #301 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I wouldn't expect to find Christianity going poor in the book of Acts. Before something it can become poor don't we need a standard for comparison? Christians generally look to Acts for a standard of how Christianity is supposed to be. Of course the author may recognize elements that the true Faith fought against which may be sources for Christianity's eventual impoverishment. But it seems to me we need to first identify the book's central theme.
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10-06-2018, 04:23 AM | #302 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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10-06-2018, 08:39 AM | #303 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
Quote:
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10-09-2018, 07:24 AM | #304 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
That's a bit too vague don't you think? My reading supports the theory attributed to Burkett in the Wikipedia entry, i. e., that Luke-Acts is an attempt to explain why the Messiah that was promised to the Jews came to have an overwhelmingly Gentile Church. And the answer is that the Jews predominantly rejected Christ and the gospel. So the book of Acts legitimates the turn to the Gentiles in the name of the Holy Spirit.
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10-09-2018, 08:21 AM | #305 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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It's prolly not written by the companion of Paul, but still reflects what the gentile church was thinking by the end of the first century. And who's Barnabas? Was he knocked off his horse?
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10-15-2018, 09:26 AM | #306 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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10-16-2018, 06:30 AM | #307 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
In order to keep the focus of this thread on what Witness Lee called "Poor Christianity", here are some brief excerpts from "The Intrinsic Problem in the Lord's Recovery Today and Its Scriptural Remedy" by Witness Lee which addresses the issue directly.
"In his withdrawal from the eldership of the church in Anaheim on March 19, 1989, Brother John Ingalls charged us with a number of accusations concerning our present situation. Hence, I have the burden to present to the saints in the Lord’s recovery some truths that will blow away the cloud that has dimmed the clear vision of the Lord’s recovery among us and will bring back to us a clear sky with a clear view in the recovery. These practical truths are versus some of John’s dissenting accusations." John Ingalls had written “Our attitude toward other Christians is one of belittling them and thinking we’re superior to them. I don’t know how many times we’ve heard this expression, ‘Poor Christianity!’ We say that we’re speaking only of the system, not of the people, but our attitude has definitely spilled over to the people.” Witness Lee's response: "Concerning John’s accusation in this item, we must distinguish Christianity from the Christians and the genuine church that is according to the divine revelation of the New Testament. In Matthew 13 the Lord Jesus showed us clearly in His parables:
The nominal Christians, the heresies, the evil practices, and the abnormal development have transmuted the church, which is composed of the genuine Christians and Christ as the seed of life and the spiritual food to be the precious pearl and the hidden treasure, into Christianity, which is not acceptable to God. Today, for the Lord’s recovery, we must realize the difference between the genuine church, composed of the real Christians, and the abnormal Christianity. When we say “Poor Christianity!” we refer to the abnormal Christianity, with no intention of belittling or despising any real Christian. We do recognize real Christians as our beloved brothers and sisters in Christ and respect those among them who are seeking the Lord and His kingdom. However, we cannot justify the very Christianity of which they are members and for which they work. Hence, in the Lord’s recovery, quite often in teaching the saints we must present the truth concerning the genuine church of the Lord as His organic Body by pointing out the poor situation of today’s Christianity. We prefer to speak about others in a positive way, but in today’s abnormal situation we simply cannot avoid pointing out the abnormality that exists among Christians."
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10-18-2018, 09:48 AM | #308 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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That's why his closest co-workers walked. Yeah Lee ... John's problem was your attitude toward other Christians. Great distraction from the Elephant in the room, your failures, and complicity in those sins.
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10-20-2018, 06:12 PM | #309 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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"The enemy Satan has used three main items to damage the church:
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10-22-2018, 04:22 AM | #310 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Witness Lee's ideal based on his reading of scripture was a church without religion, philosophy or human organization. And he found Christianity wanting because history had infected it with all three of these plagues. So the goal for his "Lord's recovery" movement was absolute purity in Christ.
What was the reality of the situation? There are cracks in his system visible even in the manifesto, The History of the Church and the Local Churches. For example, Lee instructs his followers to reject any thought or practice of rank and position in the church. He notes that rank and hierarchy come from the struggle for power. He wishes to avoid even the concept of rank within the church. And how should they go about this? Lee directs church members not to use titles! "The term elder is not and should not be a title. We do not have the title elder among us but we have some persons who are elders. We do not have any positions or titles in the church."So, Lee's way to avoid hierarchy is not to call it by name even when it obviously exists because it was ordained by Lee himself. Thus, it is easily seen that Lee's prescription against hierarchy involved directing his followers to practice denial and doublespeak.
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10-23-2018, 08:50 PM | #311 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I guess he could have taken the Recovery back to before human organization ; back to Jesus -- 'one is your Master ; and all ye are brethren.' But he didn't. He can call it anything he wants, but he adopted the RCC hierarchy.
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10-24-2018, 05:44 AM | #312 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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There also should be no philosophy in the church. Philosophy refers to the human thought, the human concept, and the human understanding that is embodied in the human opinion. This philosophy is always expressed in different doctrines. Doctrine can be a cloak to human opinion.Concerning religion he says: The will of God is not to have the Jewish religion or the religion of Christianity. The will of God is to have the organic Body of Christ. It is not to have circumcision or uncircumcision. The will of God is to have a new creation (Gal. 6:15). The new creation is the new man (Col. 3:10), and this new man is the church. The History of the Church and the Local Churches by Witness LeeSo the problems that afflict the church are human organization, human philosophy and human religion. [The third factor gets more complicated because the Jewish religion was given by God in the first place.] God dealt with all three by taking them to the cross in the person of Jesus, and creating the "new man". I take that to mean a new humanity. Human problems solved! Am I wrong in supposing that most Christians would agree with this outline?
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10-25-2018, 06:18 PM | #313 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Where is that new man anyway? Lee called it the organic body of Christ, but it turned out to be a body of Lee followers. Here's what I found on Colossians 3:10 in a footnote in the New English Translation : FN7 Put off all such things. The commands in vv. 8-9 are based on two reasons given in vv. 9-10 – reasons which are expressed in terms of a metaphor about clothing oneself. Paul says that they have put off the old man and have put on the new man. Two things need to be discussed in reference to Paul’s statement.That speaks nothing about the organic body of Christ. That's a superimposition by Lee. It sounds more like the individual subjective experience of converting to Jesus, and putting off the former bad behavior and putting on the clothing of a new way of living.
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10-26-2018, 07:30 AM | #314 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The problem I have with Lee's argument is that after condemning everything human whether it be religion or philosophy or organization, and then finding that there was a new humanity in Christ, he excludes Christianity from the new humanity and reserves it only for his group-- the local church. That to me demonstrates Witness Lee's sectarian spirit.
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10-28-2018, 10:19 AM | #315 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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And I don't think that Col. 3:15 supports Lee's interpretation. There's no mention in that verse of the "organic" body ; that is a Lee extra-Biblical word, that appears nowhere in any translations of the entire Bible ; it's a Lee figment. In fact, the following verses after v 10, and up to and including v 15, supports the NET interpretation, as it details what to take off and put on. Moreover, that the new man "is renewed in knowledge" doesn't seem to apply to the church, but to the individual subjective experience. Plus 3:15 is speaking to "your" and "you" that's been called. Col 3:15 Let the peace of Christ be in control in your heart (for you were in fact called as one body Of course, Lee's interpretation supports his sectarian agenda, that his following was/is the organic body of Christ. Lee dismisses the translators of the NET Bible, as outside the organic body of Christ. They're in the inorganic false body, that's full of only human, Jewish, Greek, organisation. And last but not least, Lee's translation has more footnotes in it than those human translators of the NET Bible do. Haha.
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10-29-2018, 06:43 AM | #316 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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10-29-2018, 07:16 AM | #317 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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10-29-2018, 12:05 PM | #318 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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(Yahweh (God) has graciously prevented me for decades from reading the perverted books by lsm / Witness Lee/ , and others usually (like ecf) ) . Thus, most 'Christians' either never see or never recognize the new creation and do not become part of the new creation in Christ Jesus, preferring as they do the approval of their peers or religious leaders instead of the approval of Yahweh (God). I just started reading this forum today, ... if this particular post doesn't 'fit' in this thread/ section then delete it if you wish. |
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10-29-2018, 12:11 PM | #319 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Most division is happening when the truth is preached, no matter where. Even Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword, and warned those who want to follow Him, those who are willing to seek and to stand up for the truth, that they will be cast of the their own family (if the family does not believe), and out of the churches/ congregations/ groups they are (or were ) in , since most families, churches, congregations and groups (unions, governments, schools, all that is of the world) cannot comprehend, cannot grasp, and do not receive nor welcome the truth - thus they reject Jesus' disciples because they first reject Jesus, as Jesus stated clearly in the New Testament. |
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10-29-2018, 09:37 PM | #320 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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When I was saying that I saw the old man and old creation I saw 'them' in the local church, not just in Christendom. And brother, I see you speak highly of Nee's life and teaching, as from Yahweh. I'd say his teachings, maybe, but I'm not sure if you know of Nee's private life. Nee had a private life, that was clearly of the old man and old creation. If you continue to dig into this forum you'll find that out. Do you have an eReader, like a Kindle, or similar? If so, I could help you with that if you wish. Let me know. Harold
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10-30-2018, 07:19 AM | #321 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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11-01-2018, 03:37 PM | #322 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Matt. 10:34 is not specific enough to be determinant. I doubt that Jesus meant that families were going to be having sword fights against each other. That's not the author's point. I won't extend my exegete of that section of Matthew here. v. 37-39 I think makes the author's point. Instead I'd like to bring up the other mention of swords, brought up in Luke : Luk 22:35-38 And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing."Jesus was "numbered with the transgressors," but two swords wasn't enough for a insurrection against the Roman occupation of the holy land. Remember what happened to John the Baptist. And then, Jesus was called the King of the Jews, that was an open provocation to the Roman occupiers. Was the Jesus movement, headed up by the 12, a bunch of insurrectionists against the Roman occupiers? Or was Jesus an apocalypticist, soon expecting a supernatural intervention? I posit the latter. The two swords support the apocalypticist view. They certainly don't indicate a insurrectionist view. Jesus wasn't making military preparations. In the least, just the two swords doesn't indicate that Jesus was advocating for violence. Or not enough to call Jesus a violent man. Well, not until Revelation. There, Jesus forgets all about love your enemies. And he has a sword coming out of his mouth.
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11-02-2018, 04:55 AM | #323 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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According to Mark, when Jesus sent the disciples out, "he charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics." According to Matthew, Jesus directed them saying "Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. " According to Luke 9, Jesus said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece." The passage in Luke 22 suggests that by the time of that gospel was written, missionaries were no longer holding to Jesus' direction to "take nothing..." and the author felt the need to justify the change in practice to include carrying a weapon. If so, it may reveal a swerve from Jesus' simple faith in sufficiency of the Father's protection by the time Luke was written.
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11-05-2018, 04:52 AM | #324 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
One area in which Christianity became poor was in its treatment of women. The authentic and historical Paul held that within the Christian church it made no difference whether one was a man or a woman. All were absolutely equal to each other. See Galatians 3:28.
But in 1st Timothy, a letter attributed to Paul by later Christians but probably not actually written by him, women are told to keep silent in the church. The passage in First Corinthians that says it is shameful for women to speak in the church but correct to ask her husband's for explanations at home contradicts Paul's general attitude toward women. It was probably inserted in the margin by a scribe and into the text in later manuscripts.
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11-08-2018, 08:45 PM | #325 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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"Jewish culture in the first century was decidedly patriarchal. The daily prayers of Jewish men included this prayer of thanksgiving: “Praised be God that he has not created me a woman.”" Jesus had female followers, but his disciples were all men. All the New Testament was written by men. In fact, the whole Bible mentions men 90% of the time. Women are valuable, but only if virgin. So of course Christianity would be patriarchal. It came up in patriarchal times. And Christianity may have been better had it not.
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11-11-2018, 05:59 AM | #326 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Women possessed few of the rights of men in Jewish society. They couldn't be witnesses in a court of law or initiate divorce and they were not taught the Torah. They were separated from men in public life and almost invisible as they still are in the traditional parts of the Middle East. Respectable women were not allowed to leave the house on escorted by a male family member. Meals outside the house were male-only affairs. Childbirth and menstruation were considered sources of impurity that led to a generalized sense of the impurity of women. That's what makes the role of women in the Jesus movement so strikingly different by contrast. In every single encounter with women in the four gospels Jesus violated the mores of his time. Jesus defended a woman who entered in all male banquet and washed his feet with her hair. He affirmed Mary's role as his discipl. He talked with a Syro-Phoenician Gentile woman. Stories of the presence of women at his death suggest that they were among his most devoted followers. Some wealthy women supported the movement itself financially thus disproving your statement that their only value was virginity. The evidence that women played leadership roles in the early church disproves the notion that the church started out strictly patriarchal. For example in Romans 16:1- 2. "I commend to you our sister Phoebe a deacon of the church at Cenchreae so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints and help her and whatever she may require from you for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well."
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11-12-2018, 02:14 PM | #327 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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11-13-2018, 05:09 AM | #328 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But of course, it hasn't. In ancient times pretty much all cultures were patriarchal, and women were considered more or less second class citizens. The Bible comes out of those times, so of course it's patriarchal, by default of it's times and norms. It can't be faulted, but shouldn't be overlooked or ignored.
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11-13-2018, 09:28 PM | #329 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I agree, that there's evidence of tampering even in some of Paul's undisputed writings, concerning women shutting up. If so then why wasn't Gal. 3:28 tampered with, that there's no male or female? Even so, pretty much in all of Christendom, subordination and inferiority of women stuck, down thru today. Quote:
Plus, a writing considered to come out of the oral tradition, The Gospel of Thomas, has Jesus saying : 114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." That attitude was very early on, closest to Jesus. Was it historical Jesus' actual attitude? We don't know.
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11-14-2018, 12:34 PM | #330 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Take another look at 1st Corinthians 7:1 in its context. The sentence you quoted was not Paul's advice.
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11-14-2018, 01:18 PM | #331 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But without the letter sent to Paul we can't know for certain what was meant. The NET Bible footnotes it : 1tn Grk “It is good for a man not to touch a woman,” a euphemism for sexual relations. This idiom occurs ten times in Greek literature, and all of the references except one appear to refer to sexual relations (cf., e.g., Josephus, Ant. 1.8.1 [1.163]; Gen 20:6 [LXX]; Prov 6:29 [LXX]). For discussion see G. D. Fee, First Corinthians (NICNT), 275. Many recent interpreters believe that here again (as in 6:12-13) Paul cites a slogan the Corinthians apparently used to justify their actions. If this is so, Paul agrees with the slogan in part, but corrects it in the following verses to show how the Corinthians misused the idea to justify abstinence within marriage (cf. 8:1, 4; 10:23). See also G. D. Fee, “1 Corinthians 7:1 in the NIV,” JETS 23 (1980): 307-14.But they don't have the letter either. So how much weight should we give the translators? All we've got is maybe educated opinions?
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11-14-2018, 02:24 PM | #332 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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11-14-2018, 02:34 PM | #333 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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11-14-2018, 08:37 PM | #334 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Was Jesus an egalitarian? I like to think so. Wouldn't he have been at least up to our standards today? Was Paul? I'd like to think so there too, but he wasn't Jesus, and not as much can be expected of him. Wishful thinking doesn't make it so. In the end, isn't it likely that they were a product of their times? and so were the story tellers ... and the scribes that tampered with the record?
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11-14-2018, 09:10 PM | #335 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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11-14-2018, 09:19 PM | #336 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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11-15-2018, 09:50 AM | #337 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Well amen to that. At least we've got that. We'd know more if we heard from all the 12 disciples. But we don't. They must have been illiterate, or maybe they walked away from following Jesus after he was gone. We don't know either. We just know that we don't hear from all of the 12 ... or the 70(2). So sorry bro Untohim, we don't have enough important data to know Jesus' attitude for certain. Your certitude is fabricated from limited data. However, as far as we know the 12 did pass it down, and the pseudepigraphal and apocryphal material picked up on it. Quote:
Okay, you've shot that messenger full of holes. Let's get back to zeek's point -- that hasn't been thoroughly presented yet -- concerning Jesus and Paul, and how they changed attitudes toward women that wasn't common in the culture they lived in. Is that true? If so, it was lost early on. More on that as the conversation develops. Thanks for your comments Untohim.
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12-18-2018, 07:06 AM | #338 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Okay, so far we haven't determined just when and where Christianity became poor.
But I think, the way that they treated women, they started out poor. Just sayin'.
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12-18-2018, 07:20 AM | #339 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
so then we are defining Christianity as the religion, not the apostle's fellowship in the NT.
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12-18-2018, 09:54 AM | #340 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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1Titus 2:12-15* But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.* For Adam was first formed, then Eve.* And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.* Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.*
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12-18-2018, 10:07 AM | #341 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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What was the context of Titus chapter 2? I ask because my employer, the Department of Education, treats me the same way. I am not allowed to speak to press, nor can I usurp authority from the "press secretary" and if I do I'll get fired.
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12-18-2018, 01:26 PM | #342 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But I don't think Christianity is to blame per se. Christianity came up in patriarchal times. Women weren't considered much back then. That's why none of the Christian books were written by women. And why didn't Christianity, being followers of Jesus, give women equality? But then even Jesus didn't ascribe to that. For example, in The Gospel of Thomas, Jesus speaking to his disciples : 114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
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12-18-2018, 02:56 PM | #343 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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So when you say "Christianity" you are talking about the gospel of Thomas? Why not talk about the NT? And yes, I am well aware that women's rights have grown greatly thanks to the NT, but certainly not thanks to anyone else.
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12-19-2018, 07:35 AM | #344 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The GoT is a sayings gospel. And whether or not the author put those words into the mouth of Jesus -- like all the later gospel writers -- it still reflects their attitudes toward women back then. Quote:
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Renowned suffragett's Susan B. Anthony, and Elizabeth Stanton fought for women's rights in the early half of the 19th c.. Stanton attacked traditional Christianity in The Woman's Bible, detailing how religion helped suppress women's rights. Maybe you're thinking of The Women's Bible.
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12-19-2018, 10:04 AM | #345 | |||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The NT is the covenant Christians have with God and therefore defines what it is to be a Christian. Using the common sayings of the day doesn't. It merely reflects the bias of the people who were newly converted (at best) and at worst is simply a stereotype. Some people felt you needed to be circumcised. That does not define Christians, it defines cults. Quote:
1. According to Paul in the church "there is no male or female". Making the two equal. A radical approach to this topic given the feelings of the day and probably the reason "all in Asia abandoned him". 2. Paul said an elder had to be the husband of one wife. A strong position for monogamy and against polygamy and mistresses, etc. That strengthened the woman's position and was a radical position to take in that day. 3. Saying that an elder had to be the husband of one wife meant that every locality had both an elder and "the wife of an elder" which is also a leadership position. So in a very elegant way Paul made sure every church had a woman in a very important position of authority. Quote:
The women's rights movement came out of the movement for ending slavery and giving blacks equal rights. Women said "hey, if you are giving black men the vote why not us". People justified slavery in the US using the Bible incorrectly (Biblical slavery was nothing like slavery of the south. It wasn't racial, it wasn't for life, there were no slave traders, only adults could sell themselves and only to pay off a debt and once the debt was paid they were free. It is analagous to an NFL contract.) Just because people misuse the Bible doesn't mean that is what the Bible says. For example, Awareness is trying to say the Bible is somehow against women's rights when it is exactly the opposite. 2/3 of the church membership is women. Why would so many women be in the church if it were abusive? In the church women can take on virtually every role and ministry. As a result, if Paul had not required that elders be the husband of one wife men probably would only have a token presence.
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12-20-2018, 08:41 AM | #346 | |||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I guess it's just you and me bro ZNP.
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Is that sort of stuff what God demands? No. It's projected upon God, from the customs and mores of the times when Christianity was born, during Paul's times. Quote:
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12-20-2018, 10:23 AM | #347 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Yes it is biological. It makes sense that for 9,950 years of human history women took on the jobs that have been replaced by appliances, and they also had the major job of child rearing for the first few years of life. When the women's suffrage movement first began the argument was that the woman would be 35 by the time all her children left her care and could live for another 50 years, therefore she needed a career. However, in practice women begin their career just like men and we warehouse the kids. 50 years is far too short to know what the impact of this dramatic change will be. Quote:
It always bothers me that people get so outraged at one verse while ignoring another. Paul also said "let everyone be subject one to another" in the very same context. Are you so arrogant that you can't learn from your wife? Why can't she learn from her husband? Quote:
That is how I read it and that is how it works in practice. Quote:
In NY I lived with one of the elders. His wife was very influential and pretty much called the shots in her zone of authority, but she did this behind the scenes. I also saw this in Taipei, Andrew Yu's wife was very influential. Quote:
Let's take a vote. I say I have proven it. I'm glad we could have a reasonable discussion
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12-20-2018, 06:48 PM | #348 | ||||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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12-21-2018, 05:53 AM | #349 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I think this discussion on women's rights needs to include the concept of a eusocial society. We have lots of rules that we have to obey for this society to function properly that may or may not make sense to apes, or prehistoric man.
We have to follow traffic laws, there is a whole protocol in place about when you are to stop, when you go, who goes first, etc. Then if there is an accident there is a whole protocol again about how this is handled. None of these laws would be in a non eusocial society. In a group of apes it is simply might makes right and get out of my way. Now there are a lot of advantages to having a eusocial society -- health care, electricity, social security, safe streets, etc. The biggest rule that we all have to follow that makes all of this possible is we have to pay taxes. Imagine our society is similar to the ark of the covenant. We have to carry this. The more people we have shouldering the load the easier it is to do this in a good way. But as birth rates decline the society has major problems for their economy. Consider Japan. Too many old people and not enough young working adults to support them. The only possible way this society is sustainable is if the birth rate is at the very least, flat. As long as we replace every senior citizen with a young person this works, when that is no longer the case we are on the decline. For a gorilla, none of this matters, but for a eusocial society it is crucial that the society has children and raises them to be productive members of society. So with that in mind, consider the whole fight for "reproductive rights". Not talking about equal pay for women, not talking about giving women the vote, not talking about women breaking the glass ceiling. Once the US legalized abortion, a major milestone in this battle for reproductive rights divorce rates skyrocketed, single parent mothers also skyrocketed, along with domestic abuse (more common where the man is not the father of the children). The only reason our birth rate hasn't plummeted like Japan is because of our immigrants. So then in our society the vast majority of the poor are single parent families. The vast majority of kids in a gang are the kids of parents who cannot supervise them (single parent mothers working two jobs, likewise poor immigrants working multiple jobs with large families, etc). Having a eusocial society requires the keeping of a covenant. The apes don't keep this covenant and they don't have this society. The laws in the Bible are the covenant that we keep so that we can live in a eusocial society. If someone doesn't want to keep those laws then they should not get the benefit of this society.
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12-21-2018, 08:58 AM | #350 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The rest of your post was just proving your position on eusocialism. But you failed to related it to women's rights in the 1st c. I'm hoping you'll rectify that.
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12-21-2018, 09:58 AM | #351 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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It also explains why the NT presents monogamy as an example (elders and deacons husband of one wife) though not a law. It also ties nicely between the Lord's word about Eunuch's for the kingdom, and James word about pure religion caring for orphans and widows.
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12-21-2018, 10:08 AM | #352 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
If Jesus didn't intend to start a new religion, then Christianity became poor when it became Christianity--a new religion that Jesus never intended to start.
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12-22-2018, 09:26 AM | #353 | |
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12-22-2018, 10:22 AM | #354 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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2. The term "Patriarchal" is not equivalent to misogynistic nor is it equivalent to making women a second class citizen. Appreciating the role of men in society is not equivalent to not appreciating the role of women. 3. The NT does not have a "class system" as far as citizens of the kingdom. Therefore you have not provided the slightest evidence that there is such a misogynistic attitude. In contrast to your unsubstantiated allegations there is the following: a. Paul taught "there is no male or female" in the kingdom b. Paul taught that an elder has to be the husband of one wife. That means that for every male leader in the church there is also a female one. Although it is not a rule it is well established statistically that women outnumber men in the church 2:1, therefore a woman leader is a very influential person in the church. c. Paul instructed the elder women to take a leading role in teaching the younger women. d. Paul referred to leading coworkers that were women. e. Paul instructed men to "love their wives as Christ also loved the church" -- a much higher standard than any other society puts on men, either in the past or the present. In addition consider that neither Paul nor any of the other apostles ever speaks derogatively or dismissively concerning women or sisters.
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12-22-2018, 11:56 AM | #355 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Had to bring this back to the top :
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12-23-2018, 05:40 AM | #356 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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From what I've read, in first century Palestine, women were excluded from testifying in court trials. They were not to be seen in public or to speak with strangers and outside their homes they were to be doubly veiled. Women were not allowed to teach or be taught the Torah in their homes...and they were not to be educated. They had become second-class Jews excluded from the worship and teaching of God with status scarcely above that of slaves. By comparison, the actions of Jesus towards women were revolutionary. Jesus didn't hesitate to engage an "unclean" foreign woman in public conversation. [John 4:5-9] He ignored all strictures of ritual impurity [Mark 5:25-34, 35-43] He himself taught women [Luke 10:38-42], and gave them equal rank with men as "daughters of Abraham" [Luke 13:10-17], openly ministered to them as "children of wisdom" {Luke 13:10-17] and afforded them the highest respect as persons [Matt. 5:28] Women belong to the inner circle of disciples [Luke 8:1-3] Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with Him, and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities—Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided for Him from their substance.Women were the first to witness the Resurrection [Luke 24:1-11]. This is a case in which the last [women] became the first as Jesus predicted it would be in the kingdom of God. The Gospel of John concludes with the testimony of a woman, Mary Magdalene, to the Christ's resurrection [John 20:18].
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12-23-2018, 08:58 AM | #357 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
On the other hand, Jesus identified God as the Father and the 12 disciples that Jesus called and gave special authority to were all men. So I don't see how it's possible to avoid the conclusion that Jesus's theological vision was patriarchal.
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12-23-2018, 08:07 PM | #358 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But like you said, he grew up in patriarchal times, and so didn't speak out for women's rights. Those kinds of rights, human rights, hadn't developed as values yet. So we really can't hold it against Jesus that he didn't speak out for equality of women. Had he lived in the 20th century, he prolly would have.
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12-24-2018, 03:55 AM | #359 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But I don't see the concept of natural or human rights being promoted in the Bible per se. Rather, the New Testament writers seem to view Jesus's attitude towards women as an expression of his godly loving-kindness. In other words his acceptance of women was seen as a personal virtue that he possessed not as treatment they were entitled to as a right. Jesus's attitude towards his mother may be relevant here as well. Without a doubt Jesus considered God to be his father. But he rejected Mary as being his mother according to Mark 3:31-35. Furthermore, according to John 2 when Jesus' mother told him that the wedding party had run out of wine Jesus said to her "Woman what does your concern have to do with me my hour has not yet come" (NKJV). I can see how his openness toward women not withstanding, Jesus' attitude toward his mother in contrast to his exalted view of God as his Father, lends itself to a patriarchal interpretation.
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12-25-2018, 04:24 PM | #360 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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9 In like manner also that the women in decent deportment and dress adorn themselves with modesty and discretion, not with plaited [hair] and gold, or pearls, or costly clothing, 10 but, what becomes women making profession of the fear of God, by good works. 11 Let a woman learn in quietness in all subjection; 12 but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness; If these verses prove the argument that the NT is biased against women then you have proven your case, if they don't, then you have no case because these verses are far and away your best case. So why all the other blather? Why not drill down on these verses, press the issue, and hang your case on these verses? What is lacking from all of the whiners and bellyachers about this issue is even a modicum of discussion as to the society that the church was living in at the time. Women's rights are not solely a church matter. We know this today. When our army and even our civilians go to a country in the Middle East (or in fact anywhere on the planet) we have to learn and respect the customs. Likewise the church is the embassy of the kingdom of the heavens. Until the kingdom comes we are representatives in a strange land and have to respect the customs of a strange people. For example, take what Paul says about women's clothing. "Decent deportment", "modesty", "discretion", etc. We say exactly the same thing today when instructing our military, government officials, and even our corporate executives who want to be successful in these countries. Does that mean that the US is biased against women? If it doesn't then it means those who are complaining about Paul are two faced hypocrites. If it does then it means those who are complaining about Paul should be judging themselves rather than him. Now if the United States, the most powerful nation on Earth, and the nation that countries like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia do billions of dollars of business with on a daily basis, and a nation critical to their national security, if we have to show this level of respect to these despots then how evil and nasty to complain about a few hundred of the poorest and least respected members of the society also behaving with discretion. Now Paul also said "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man". This therefore is the single quote from the NT on which all claims of misogyny hang. And there is a very clear distinction here with the US. We do have people of authority, women, who do teach and exercise authority over men. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have had to get used to it. This is true, but it was only true when an army was at their gate able to crush them had they not called for our help. The context of Paul's word is "2 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; 2 for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity;". He wasn't speaking to Christians in a new land thousands of miles from the existing power structures and religions. We saw very quickly that Christians in the US did not in any way hold to this kind of teaching. Rather he was speaking to Christians in a very hostile environment. An environment where both Roman and Jew wanted them fed to the lions. To ignore that is willful ignorance and demonstrates someone who is giving counsel without knowledge or prudence. If you want to lead a quiet and tranquil life in the Middle East 2,000 years ago then the local people could not fear that you were completely undermining their entire social structure. What all these complainers miss is the significance of his statement that they "learn in quietness". Look at the current difficulty with women, girls, trying to go to school in Taliban controlled countries. Step 1 is to allow women to learn. That is what Paul and the NT taught, which was a radical departure from the local society. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." That is human history. That is how women were freed. Paul took the radical step of teaching women the truth in quietness. He had no authority or power to decree their freedom. But "the truth" does. Therefore, as I have said before and human history has confirmed, the NT, the fellowship of the apostles, and primarily the fellowship of the Apostle Paul, has been critical to advancing women's rights. This is evidenced in the fact that throughout the last 2,000 years women have been the overwhelming majority of church members.
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12-26-2018, 12:46 AM | #361 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
First of all, let's be clear: I never claimed that either Jesus nor Paul were misogynists. In their social cultural context patriarchy was the norm. So from the historical standpoint it wouldn't be surprising if they held patriarchal views. There is evidence that at least some of their views broke from the patriarchal norms of the time in ways that were revolutionary.
There are reasons to doubt that I Timothy was written by Paul. The vocabulary and style and tone of I Timothy is very different from the seven letters the scholars are most certain were written by Paul. In addition to that, the issues addressed in I Timothy seem to belong to a later generation of early Christianity when the process of institutionalization had begun. Furthermore the role of women is very different in I Timothy than it is in those letters considered to be genuine writings of Paul by modern scholars. In Galatians 3:28 Paul states that in Christ there is no male or female. In other words, men and women are equal in Christ. In Romans 16:7 Paul refers to Junia which was a women's name, as a prominent apostle. In Romans 16: 1- 16 Paul speaks of other women as leaders in the church. He doesn't object to women prophesying in the church in Corinth. The passage in 1st Timothy restricts the role of women and disqualifies them from leadership in the church. As justification for constricting the woman's role the author states that a woman was responsible for bringing sin into the world. In the genuine letters of Paul he never blames Eve. The author's conclusion that women can be saved only through childbearing doesn't sound like Paul of the genuine epistles either.
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12-27-2018, 10:46 AM | #362 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But, about Paul and Eve, did you forget that in 2 Corinthians, a non-contested book by Paul, Paul likens 'another Jesus and other gospel' to Eve, being beguiled by the serpent? I do agree that, "at least some of their [Jesus & Paul] views broke from the patriarchal norms of the times," but question, "in ways that were revolutionary." It's commendable that they broke norms, but shouldn't that be expected? Jesus was guided by his father, Paul was guided by the revelation of Jesus Christ, and so not by culture or norms of the day. They did perhaps break with norms of the times, yet, according to our authoritative records, neither spoke out a clear message of the equality of the sexes. That would have been revolutionary. Doesn't that mean, if true -- that Jesus spoke for God, and Paul for Jesus (which it has to be) -- then neither God nor Christ are for the equality of the sexes? And our secular systems, then today, that stand for the equality of the sexes, are rebelling against Gods' ways and wishes, concerning the sexes? I hope not. I think it quite possible that our records, that are considered authoritative whether genuine or not, weren't concerned about such matters. The son of man was coming back in their generation. And when that happened, equality of the sexes wouldn't be an issue. Then they would all be "in Christ," where there are no sexes.
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12-27-2018, 12:04 PM | #363 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But you are completely impractical. Both Paul and Jesus had both a vision of the coming kingdom and also presented a practical path to get there -- "learning in quietness" and "teaching in quietness".
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12-28-2018, 05:24 AM | #364 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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12-28-2018, 09:58 AM | #365 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, so claimed. Surely he would have known the Genesis story well enough not to get it wrong. Whoever the author was got it wrong. When he writes : "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression," that's not how the version of the story we have in our canon today puts it : Gen 3:6b - "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her" So they were both there listening to the talking serpent, and they both 'right there together' transgressed. Basically, this author is using, and twisting, the Genesis story to support his misogyny against women. And like the snake handlers in Appalachia, who are following the last 12 verses in Mark, that is a later add in, today churches are following a non-authentic Timothy. All thanks to Constantine's Bible.
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12-29-2018, 05:06 PM | #366 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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12-29-2018, 05:21 PM | #367 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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1) Jesus' attitude towards women was refreshingly egalitarian. However he didn't provide an explicit teaching which demanded a fundamental change in the status of women. 2) Paul did propose such a change Galatians 3:28 wherein there was no distinction made between male or female in Christ. However he wasn't fully consistent with this in practice as is illustrated in I Corinthians when he made such a distinction with regard to head covering. This suggests he may not have understood the full implications of the Galatians 3:28 principal. He may have been a bit like Jefferson who stated that all men were created equal and yet own slaves. 3)Nevertheless, both men we're operating under the patriarchal paradigm of an age in which God is seen as the divine Father while the divine character of the mother was suppressed as it was in Old Testament Judaism. 4) As a result, Christianity quickly backslid into a view of women as subordinate to men as is seen in I Timothy.
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12-29-2018, 05:29 PM | #368 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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1. Jesus and Paul had the same teaching. In the kingdom of the heavens there is no male and female. 2. However, in this age there is. To deny that is idiotic. Both Jesus and Paul encouraged abstinence from marriage, but realized for most people that would not be a viable option. Staying unmarried would go a long way to helping women have equal rights. When women are pregnant and are raising two or three kids it can be enough to derail any other career they might have aspired to. 3. Both Jesus and Paul had women in leading roles in the ministry. 4. Paul taught that the single best step that the church could take in the midst of a culture similar to the Taliban, was to "teach women in quietness". In hindsight this has been the single best strategy and no one, certainly not Awareness, has suggested any better strategy to women living in the Middle East 1,900 years ago. 5. Similar to Paul Jesus taught that the wisest path for women would be to take up His cross and follow Him. Again, wisdom that has been proven by hindsight.
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12-30-2018, 11:13 AM | #369 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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2. I agree it's literally idiotic. So we must either conclude that Paul is an idiot or look for a metaphorical meaning. The ambiguity of the metaphor leaves it open for interpretation. A common traditional interpretation has it that it means that men and women are equal before God. The idea in jurisprudence that men and women are equal before the law derives from that metaphor. 3. There is evidence that women associated with both Jesus and Paul had leadership positions, not the least of which was as financial backers. But pray tell why did Jesus name no woman among the 12 apostles? 4. Holding "teach women in quietness" as a principal in no way affords women equal rights. So you have made my case that if Jesus and Paul at any point recognized women as equal, the church backslid into once again viewing them as subordinate by the time I Timothy was written.
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12-30-2018, 11:24 AM | #370 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Where your entire argument is completely illogical and unfounded is the assumption that it was the church that taught people to be misogynists, rather than the church that was rescuing people from sin.
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12-30-2018, 06:01 PM | #371 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I mistakenly posted this on the Politics thread. Am bringing our discussion of it over here :
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Now back to women in 1st c. Palestine : A present day example of how women were treated back then. Enter, recent news : Lev Tahor They kidnapped a couple of children in upstate NY and took them to Mexico. They were captured, and the children recovered. The Lev Tahor is a extremist Jewish cult, that strictly holds true to the Torah. According to them women are to be covered in black from head to toe, starting at age 3. They are holding to the Jewish customs that were present in 1st c. Palestine. That's the way women were treat in Jesus' day. And Jesus, nor Paul, spoke out any clear message against it. Instead women were to shut up, and be silent. And patriarchy and misogyny continued on for centuries, supported by the Bible. Children kidnapped by Hasidic cult found safe in Mexico, leaders charged https://www.timesofisrael.com/childr...aders-charged/ Quote:
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12-30-2018, 06:05 PM | #372 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Brought over from politics :
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Instead, you would have had this all fizzle out in some pointless "rebellion" 2,000 years ago about what? This from the same guy who applauds Chinese dictators cracking down on all forms of religious expression.
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12-31-2018, 08:17 AM | #373 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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And let's talk about the kingdom preaching. Are women unequal in the 'earthly kingdom?' That's what happened. First Timothy exemplifies. No matter who wrote 1st Timothy, Galatians was written before it. If Paul wrote it it was written in the 50's or 60's. If a devotee of Paul wrote it, it was written in the late 1st c.. If Paul wrote it, did he backslide from is position of "no male or female in Christ," to the same old patriarchal ways? If someone else wrote it, regardless of all the kingdom preaching by Jesus and Paul, patriarchy was present early on in the church. Is that the kingdom Jesus and Paul preached to the whole earth? Answer that bro ZNP. It's important. Quote:
Just face it. Patriarchy was the norm back then, for everyone, including Jesus and Paul.
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12-31-2018, 09:04 AM | #374 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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1. There is the practical reality of the age we live in and there is the Kingdom age that we enter in our spirit and where we will ultimately arrive. In that coming age there is no male or female. Both Jesus and Paul said this. However, in this age there is. In the societies in which the church is this is the case (acting like an embassy from the Kingdom -- we are representatives of that kingdom but inhabit a strange land and must respect that). This is why it is called "the gospel". We are preaching good news to those in darkness. 2. The term patriarchy only means that men have a position in the society as well as women. Yes, both the OT and NT are patriarchal, they protect the position of men. From my understanding matriarchal societies are not in any way examples of some kind of utopia. 3. Why is repeating your positions on relevant issues viewed by you as "a personal attack"? That is a bizarre statement. 4. I have stated from the get go, in fact this is where I entered this conversation, that Timothy should be the focus. I pointed out there are two issues -- the direction to women to dress modestly and the direction to not teach men. The first is an absurd complaint since we, today, in our enlightened state, give the same instructions to those going to the middle east. As for the second I understand that instruction in light of the entire NT which includes Galatians, but more importantly includes the instruction that women are to have their heads covered when they pray and that the elder women are to teach the younger women, and that an elder must be the husband of one wife. These three instructions make it clear that women do speak in the church, they do teach and they do hold positions of authority. Nor can some pathetic attempt to claim that Timothy was not written by Paul solve any of these issues. Therefore the context of that particular chapter is dealing with kings and political rulers in the town in which the church is located. The instructions by Paul are equivalent to the instructions virtually everyone today in any large corporation is given -- you don't speak for the organization unless you have that position. You don't speak to the press, you don't speak in any way shape or form implying that you are doing so on behalf of the corporation unless you have been instructed to.
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12-31-2018, 09:11 PM | #375 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Me too. But I think we're getting somewhere.
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This in no way speaks to the equality of the sexes ... this is nothing short of male dominance. Quote:
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12-31-2018, 10:14 PM | #376 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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01-01-2019, 06:55 AM | #377 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
But 1.2 billion Catholics might agree, with all their male priests.
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01-02-2019, 05:02 AM | #378 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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In the 70s I remember some of the most shrill claims made by Shafly and the anti feminists. They seemed over the top at the time: women will serve in combat and we'll have unisex bathrooms. I also see numerous studies on women in executive positions and women's pay. In my opinion they should factor in the fact that some women adjust their career goals when they are pregnant and have children. If a woman drops out of her job for three years or longer to raise her kids one would expect that to be reflected in her pay and her career. That should not be viewed as bias or a glass ceiling. Likewise I see laws being passed that allow men to take time off when a baby is born, that is a recent development which is moving towards egalitarian society. I have not heard a single peep out of Christians or churches complaining about women getting equal pay, women getting positions of authority in society, women running for president, or men taking time off at the time a baby is born. If Christians did have the bias you ascribe why are they so silent or even supportive of legislation that is moving towards an egalitarian society? The US is described as a "Christian" country and that is definitely a fair assessment when the US is weighed against other nations. Our laws, our thoughts and our population is certainly strongly influenced by both the NT and OT. Why then is the US moving dramatically towards an egalitarian society? The changes we have made in just the last 100 years when compared to 10,000 years of human history have been dramatic and rapid. If the Bible was truly biased against women that should not happen here. Finally, why are you using the Catholic church to support your argument. The Catholic church has left the fellowship of the apostles in numerous and critical areas. What the Catholic church demonstrates is the fallen man, not the teaching of the Bible. Every complaint you have about Lee and Nee as leading a cult can be ascribed to the Catholic church on a much greater scale. Authoritarian leadership, yes. Mind control, yes. Bias against women, yes. Corrupt and lascivious men in positions of power, yes. Making merchandise of the saints, yes. Hypocritical leaders, yes. Setting up their Pope as a mediator between God and man, yes. And idolatry. They do not define Christians. A Christian is defined by our covenant with God, not by an abomination to God.
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01-02-2019, 09:36 AM | #379 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But there's plenty of influences on the evolution of egalitarianism besides the OT and NT? Just like they didn't influence the Greeks, who founded science, and other intellectual breakthroughs, there are secular influences that are shaping our modern societies. I think we stopped referencing the Bible to end slavery and inequality of women. To be honest. If I were a non-religious book worm, and picked up the Bible, and read it objectively, with no particular religious bias, I wouldn't be able to help concluding that the God of the Bible is a racist (the chosen race) and a misogynous (inequality and oppression of women in the book). That would be discovered in the first 3 chapters of the Bible, where the man gives birth to the women, and the woman is blamed for angering God, and getting them kicked out of paradise ; obviously the serpent was male. And so was/is God (the Father). Where's the goddess in the Bible? The early Israelite's, before 600BC, were polytheists, and Yahweh back then had a consort. Her name was Asherah. She was also part of the Canaanite pantheon. So why don't we have Mother God in the Bible? Than we could concluded that the Bible stands for equality of the sexes. But we can't. There's no Mother God in the Bible, anywhere, old or new. And neither Jesus or Paul addressed it. Patriarchy carried the day ; until secularism had to address it within the last 100 years or so. The Bible had 1900 yrs circa to address equality of the sexes, but failed to produce it.
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01-02-2019, 10:10 AM | #380 | |||||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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How is that any different from an NFL contract? So then, your idea that we have "ended slavery" is ridiculous if you are referencing Biblical slavery. Quote:
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Finally, the fundamental definition of "secularism" is the separation of church and state. Jesus taught this when He said that my kingdom is not of this world. Gospels taught this when you read of Satan promising Jesus to give him all these kingdoms if He will worship me. This fundamental teaching is continued in the epistles in numerous places. So if you are giving "secularism" credit for these changes you are agreeing with me that it was the NT and the influence of the apostles. Glad to see you are open to changing your opinion through dialogue. That is big of you. Jewish, Moslem, Shinto, Seikism and Catholic religions are not secular, they believe that the religion is entwined with the govt. Even Buddhism with the dalai lama is intertwined with government.
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01-02-2019, 05:55 PM | #381 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
ZNP you evaded awareness's argument. The New Testament refers to God the Father. Why not God the Mother? Face the fact. The symbolism is inescapably patriarchal. The honest conservative response is to embrace patriarchy. But you can't do that and embrace equality of the sexes at the same time.
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01-02-2019, 06:20 PM | #382 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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I have not evaded his argument. Read all my posts. I have embraced the fact that the Bible is patriarchal. I deny that this equates to misogyny. His argument was lame and full of holes. The Bible does talk of the daughter of God, the wife of God, the mother of us all, the Bride of Christ, and the marriage of the lamb. Tell Awareness to go and correct all the inaccuracies of his argument and then I'll look at it again.
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01-03-2019, 05:11 AM | #383 |
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Re: A wife of noble character
10 [b]A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies. 11 Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. 12 She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. 13 She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. 14 She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. 15 She gets up while it is still night; she provides food for her family and portions for her female servants. 16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. 17 She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. 18 She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. 19 In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. 20 She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy. 21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet. 22 She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple. 23 Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. 24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. 25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. 26 She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. 27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. 28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: 29 “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.” 30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. 31 Honor her for all that her hands have done, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
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01-03-2019, 05:14 AM | #384 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
As a young man marries a young woman, so will your Builder marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you.
14 You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. 15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring.[d] So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth. 16 “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,”[e] says the Lord Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
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01-03-2019, 07:27 AM | #385 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
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01-03-2019, 10:10 AM | #386 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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First. When the bridegroom comes, there still remains male and female. Paul must have been speaking metaphorically when he said no male or female, not literally. Which explains all the ambiguity concerning male and female in his writings. Second. Putting aside the implication of polygamy, look at how even that parable is chock-full of patriarchy : Five virgins and one groom. The man had five young women taking care of him and his needs (every mans' dream ... even Jesus, apparently (prolly not Paul, he was a misogynous - "best not to touch a women" -- they're below him)). Third. "The 'son' of 'man.'" That's absurd, considering that every one, including sons and daughters, are the 'sons' of women, not men ; again, male dominance in the NT -- women, the only ones bringing life into the world, get less credit than men. In the end, it would make more sense if there were a Mother God in the Bible, and not just a Father God. What happened to Mother God? Maybe she was like Lilith -- Adams first wife, that was created with him (see Gen. 1:27), who refused to be subservient, and left Adam, and the garden --So, after giving birth to Jesus in heaven, she must have refused to be subservient, so God buried her in the back yard. So, no Mother God. And Jesus didn't honor his heavenly mother, any more than his earthly mother ; he never mentions his heavenly mother. Who knows? We can't know, any more than we can know, "the status of the church after the marriage of the lamb."
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01-03-2019, 12:08 PM | #387 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
While we await ZNP's answers, I will introduce another proposition where Christianity may have become poor for the consideration of our readers. That is: Christianity became "poor poor" when it began to teach the doctrine of eternal perdition.
There is no documentation that the church councils of the first four centuries embraced the doctrine of "eternal punishment." The church councils at Nice in A.D. 325, at Constantinople in A.D.381, at Ephesus in A.D.431 and at Chalcedon in A.D.451 never embraced this doctrine. In contrast, there is documented evidence that many church leaders and teachers of the first centuries A.D. wrote acclaiming the doctrine of "universal salvation" or "ultimate reconciliation", none of whom were censored. It was not until 553 A.D. that the Roman Catholic Church denounced the teaching of ultimate reconciliation as heresy. http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/etpunish.html
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01-03-2019, 01:43 PM | #388 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
You should have stuck to this rather than running off with the polygamy, misogyny, etc.
Male and female, together they make up "Man".
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01-03-2019, 01:50 PM | #389 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
Clearly women are instructed to "scream for help" in such situations. Your question neglected the other not uncommon crime of a woman found in fornication who cries rape. This verse covers both possibilities.
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01-03-2019, 04:47 PM | #390 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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01-03-2019, 05:49 PM | #391 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The verse is very clear -- a woman should scream if she is being raped. That answers your question of "where the Bible tells her to scream". Ignoring that is willful disregard for what is obvious. What you are ignoring is the very real possibility that when the woman is caught in the fornication she claims the man forced her. Why do you ignore this, it is proven and is undeniably one possibility. Also, the context and the verse clearly would be understood that had she screamed someone would have heard her. If that would not have been the case then any reasonable person could judge it that way. This whole attack on man being the ultimate culprit, the ultimate evil and even if the woman sins well it isn't her fault because man has created a system in which she has to sin is simply the typical response of all sinners who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. Finally, your ridiculous conclusion that "Apparently the New Testament doesn't advise a woman what to do if she's being abused by the male church leaders. Apparently the New Testament writers thought that their leadership would be above that sort of thing." Is just abhorrent. Paul said not to take an accusation against an elder except by the hand of two witnesses. How could anyone conclude that Paul thought the leadership "would be above that sort of thing"? Idiotic. Galatians, James, the epistles of Peter and Jude all discuss evil leaders, again what an idiotic and unfounded accusation from you. The only conclusion I can make is that you will say anything at all to slander the Apostles and the NT. Corinthians (both of them) deal with this very thing and the man is excommunicated and disciplined for his sexual abuses. Again, completely unfounded and willfully biased slander. Several books of Paul rebuke the works of the flesh which include many sexual sins. Jesus raised the stakes for this sin saying that committing it in your heart was on par with doing it in the flesh. Jesus rebuked the hypocritical leaders of the time for many sins, describing them as whitewashed sepulchres filled with dead man's bones. Your assertion that the writers of the NT couldn't forsee evil leaders is so absurdly ridiculous as to conclude you have no idea at all what the Bible says. The book of Revelation is filled with the judgement on the great, the leaders, the rulers of nations. Have you even read the NT? As for the standard for "two witnesses" we have since learned in Forensic science that one witness is less than 50% accurate. If you only have a single witness chances are the person is innocent. But once you have two witnesses that agree the chances are better than 50% you have a guilty person. In addition the OT makes it very clear that "blood" can be a witness. Physical evidence can be a witness. It does not have to simply be two people who are eyewitnesses.
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01-03-2019, 11:36 PM | #392 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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01-04-2019, 07:28 AM | #393 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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"the things which are despised God has chosen..." 1 Corinthians 1:28
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01-04-2019, 09:20 AM | #394 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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01-04-2019, 11:23 AM | #395 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
My little ditty wasn't much different than your little ditty, that, the Bible has the way of good slavery ; like MBL players, that are making millions, while in their chains. Quote:
No. It's merely a product of patriarchy ; which we all -- the trinity of AltV's - or the Three Amigos -- all agree existed back then. Otherwise gender neutral terms could be used, like "people" or "humans." But back to "the son of "humankind," er, I mean "man."" Setting aside that it's hard to determine just who the son of man is (why not son of God), lets talk about the word man. In Greek it's "anthrōpos," which is gender neutral, some what, depending on the context. It's used 560 times in the NT. An interesting conundrum for modern translators, that tend to translate in more gender neutral terms, of the word anthrōpos, is in John 2:24-25 and 3:1 : Joh 2:24* But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,*All are anthrōpos. So how do you translate them? Still, we've already settled that those were patriarchal times, when women were subservient to men (and be silent). I understand why most Jesus believers would get their 10 foot poles out - like bro Ohio - that, Jesus and Paul didn't speak out clearly that the inequality of the sexes is wrong. Jesus and Paul are the founders and leaders of the Christian faith. They're the ones we look up to for moral guidance. They could have settled the matter early on. But they didn't. This is important. Because the Christian leaders and founders never made it clear that, women shouldn't be subservient to men, it's caused grievous harm to women for centuries. I know admitting that is a hard pill to swallow. These days it doesn't make Jesus/Paul/Christianity very attractive concerning the status women. And these days women are clawing out from under that kind of treatment and inequality. Soooo ... When it comes to women, shame on Jesus and Paul.
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01-04-2019, 04:37 PM | #396 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
And an unbiased one at that!
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01-04-2019, 04:50 PM | #397 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.1 Corinthians 11:3 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24So we all agree! In the New Testament, not unlike in the Old, and, as in the Koran as well, women are not equal with men, but are, rather, subordinate, by which we mean lower in rank or position.
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01-05-2019, 01:46 PM | #398 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Not because God made man over woman because he made woman out of man, but because he made woman so seductive and irresistible to man. Adam couldn't help himself. Eve had no problem seducing Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. But it's not considered to be Adam's fault, it was the irresistibleness of woman, it was Eve's fault. But she couldn't help it. She didn't even have to try. God made her that way. Perhaps that's why Paul said it's best too not even touch a woman. She's too seductive. God made her so seductive that she had to be controlled by men. Cuz men were too weak to resist them, they had to be covered from head to toe, from 3 yrs old, cuz men want even very young virgins. If the sons of God in Gen. 6 couldn't resist them, human men don't have a chance. Islam didn't invent covering women from head to toe, they copied it from the Old Testament. I read that in countries where women wear burka's, women have such power of sexual attraction that men are titillated just by catching a glimpse of a bare ankle. That's how seductive God made women to men. So women have to be subjugated by men -- silent and obedient -- because men can't help themselves ... especially 'other' men ... men can't allow women to adorn themselves, cuz other men will want them. Kudos to Christianity for replacing the burka with just a head covering. And it seems to me God made man man, and women women, and they are the way they are. So, if true, it's God that wants women to live like they suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, in church and in marriage. The truth is, I don't know what God wants, if He ordained that women are to be below men or not. But if it is ordained by God then, our present day secular society is rebelling against God's ordained way ... as to be expected from the heathens.
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01-05-2019, 06:42 PM | #399 | ||
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
Quote:
Anybody have a problem with that?
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01-08-2019, 05:34 AM | #400 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
According to Roman Catholic historian Garry Wills, in Galatians 3:26 - 28 Paul is quoting a baptismal formula that he learned in the diaspora churches. So egalitarianism was already being practiced in the earliest Christian gatherings when Paul joined. Or, t seems to me, at least it was the ideal they sought, as opposed to general norm of male superiority that predominated in first century Mediterranean culture.
Wills notes that the "hymn" does not keep perfect symmetry by saying "man or woman" since it is a quotation from Genesis "man and woman he created them" (1:27). "There is no more man and woman as originally divided since they are now united in Messiah." Wills believes that the early gatherings of the churches were the most egalitarian groups of their day and that there has been a concerted effort over the centuries to hide or diminish this fact. This is in the chapter entitled "Paul and Women" in Wills' book What Paul Meant published in 2006.
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01-08-2019, 08:09 AM | #401 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
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02-01-2019, 05:46 AM | #402 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
I can't believe this didn't come to mind but I think I've found the point where Christianity went wrong.
And I think we're all familiar with it. It had to do with the authority of God on the earth. I ran into this in The Gnostic Gospels by Dr. Elaine Pagels. Never mind the merits of the Gnostics and the proto-orthodox, differences, or lack thereof. This example is the matter of spiritual authority. I think for us LCer's this is an important read : For when gnostic and orthodox Christians discussed the nature of God, they were at the same time debating the issue of spiritual authority. This issue dominates one of the earliest writings we have from the church at Rome—a letter attributed to Clement, called Bishop of Rome (c. 90-100). As spokesman for the Roman church, Clement wrote to the Christian community in Corinth at a time of crisis: certain leaders of the Corinthian church had been divested of power. Clement says that "a few rash and self-willed people" drove them out of office: "those of no reputation [rose up] against those with reputation, the fools against the wise, the young against the old."25 Using political language, he calls this "a rebellion"26 and insists that the deposed leaders be restored to their authority: he warns that they must be feared, respected, and obeyed. On what grounds? Clement argues that God, the God of Israel, alone rules all things:27 he is the lord and master whom all must obey; he is the judge who lays down the law, punishing rebels and rewarding the obedient. But how is God's rule actually administered? Here Clement's theology becomes practical: God, he says, delegates his "authority of reign" to "rulers and leaders on earth."28 Who are these designated rulers? Clement answers that they are bishops, priests, and deacons. Whoever refuses to "bow the neck"29 and obey the church leaders is guilty of insubordination against the divine master himself. Carried away with his argument, Clement warns that whoever disobeys the divinely ordained authorities "receives the death penalty! "30 This letter marks a dramatic moment in the history of Christianity. For the first time, we find here an argument for dividing the Christian community between "the clergy" and "the laity." The church is to be organized in terms of a strict [34] "One God, One Bishop" order of superiors and subordinates. Even within the clergy, Clement insists on ranking each member, whether bishop, priest, or deacon, "in his own order":31 each must observe "the rules and commandments" of his position at all times. Many historians are puzzled by this letter.32 What, they ask, was the basis for the dispute in Corinth? What religious issues were at stake? The letter does not tell us that directly. But this does not mean that the author ignores such issues. I suggest that he makes his own point—his religious point—entirely clear: he intended to establish the Corinthian church on the model of the divine authority. As God reigns in heaven as master, lord, commander, judge, and king, so on earth he delegates his rule to members of the church hierarchy, who serve as generals who command an army of subordinates; kings who rule over "the people"; judges who preside in God's place. -- Elaine Pagels. The Gnostic Gospels (Kindle Locations 1052-1076). Kindle Edition.
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02-01-2019, 07:38 AM | #403 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Quote:
I would say those were the things that were the point at which Christianity went wrong. Considering our experience in the LC, the error began when WL and his sons sinned. This error became codified and established when the elders were forced to sign a loyalty pledge. Think about some of the testimonies on this forum where WL was a huge part of the experience of the saints. If Jesus is not the main experience then that is clearly a problem. Think of all these ones who viewed WL as the "Minister of the Age" that indicates they were following him, that is the error. Think about when they left the fellowship of the apostles to file their lawsuits. That was the beginning of the end. Comparing the error of Christianity to the error of the Germans in following Hitler, the error wasn't in his election (small percent of the vote). The error was when they agreed to put him in charge and submit to him. There were a number of events that led to that. But that is described in the book of Galatians when Paul marvels that they have left the gospel to follow these nut jobs.
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02-01-2019, 02:56 PM | #404 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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The slogan "One God, One Bishop" meant the bishop in Rome. This is around the turn of the century, circa when the gospel of John and the book of Revelation were written. Clement is writing concerning elders that got kicked to the curb in Corinth. Clement is listed as the bishop, pope, of Rome by Irenaeus and Tertullian holding office from 88 to his death in 99. He's declaring that the bishop of Rome is the authority of God on the earth, and those that are not obedient or rebel against Rome are/were rebelling against God. That's what got me kicked to the curb ; me questioning that Lee was the authority of God on the earth. To me, back in circa 1980, that's when Lee fell, long before the Philip scandal, before Ingalls et al. And from what I've read that's the way Lee thought of himself, and practiced, before coming to America. That fall of Lee, and likely Nee, was the same as the fall of early Christianity, and it had to do with the authority of God on the earth. Did Lee know about Clement of Rome? It's touted that he was a big fan of history. Did he get the idea of the authority of God on the earth from there? or did he get it from Nee? Where did Nee get it from? It's touted that he read all the books of Christianity. Is the authority of God on earth a thing of Christianity? Was Paul the authority of God on the earth? When did this start? Rome was taking power early on, long before Constantine 325ad, at the turn of the century. I'm positing that that's when Christianity went south. Am I wrong about this?
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02-01-2019, 06:41 PM | #405 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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02-03-2019, 01:30 PM | #406 | |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
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Pope Clement was riling about Valentinus, a Gnostic at the turn of the century. Valentinus had no problem agreeing with orthodox teachings and doctrines. He just applied them to the God that is/was higher than the creator law-giver God. But that's not my point. Clement was pushing the authority of God on the earth, represented by a hierarchy of pope, bishops, priests, and deacons. This, around the turn of the century, when Revelation was written, was the first known demarcation between the clergy and the laity. Ring a bell? But there's more. The orthodox only allowed the above to officiate meetings. While the churches of Valentinus had no such officials. Cuz each of them were considered gifted with the Spirit, and gnosis, any one of them could officiate. At each meeting, they drew lots. They were criticized for that practice. But the Gnostics believed that God was in control of everything, and so was also in control of the lots. Lots were cast to select the replacement of Judas, btw. What I think should be familiar to us LCer's is that, there were no clergy in the LC -- so taught, and bragged about -- just like Valentinus. Was Lee a Gnostic?
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02-09-2019, 09:11 PM | #407 |
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Re: Poor poor Christianity?
Okay I get it. How could I not? I've heard it pretty much all my life : the worst thing a Christian can be is Gnostic.
So I understand the knee-jerk reflex, and poking it with yer 10 foot pole. But it was late 1st c. and early 2nd c. reactions against the Gnostics that shaped the orthodoxy. Out of that struggle came the hierarchical church, with Rome the top authority of God on the earth. And I don't consider that good or true, which I think most out here would easily agree with ... I would hope. But neither would I advise anyone to become a Gnostic, of any clan -- and there were competing clans of Gnostics. Even they couldn't agree with each other ... like Christians today. In that sense all Christians are Gnostics ... or like human, maybe. But before we jump into the differences between the orthodox and the Gnostics concerning women -- if we do -- I found this nugget in Pagel's book on The Gnostic Gospels : Jérôme Carcopino, in a discussion entitled "Feminism and Demoralization," explains that by the second century A.D., upper-class women often insisted upon "living their own life." Male satirists complained of their aggressiveness in discussions of literature, mathematics, and philosophy, and ridiculed their enthusiasm for writing poems, plays, and music.
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