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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 08-31-2008, 10:27 AM   #1
FoundHim
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Default Psychological Damage in the LC

I think I have not read enough on this forum to even start a new thread, but I am starting this one with one purpose in mind.

I would ask that whoever would like ,would help me start a list of concise damage that the LC does to one psychologically. Could be related to spiritual damage, or just plain "mind pain".

I have Christian friends who just have No idea what a group that is "abusive" causes to one's psyche. Yes, I will use that word! We forgot we had one, or were told not to use our "mind" - how many times ? ??????? We are body, soul and spirit - I still believe that. But the "soul" was such a no no, put it down, deny, deny, deny - who could Live that way?

I hope we will keep it concise - even a list would be good if anyone has one pertaining to helping others understand. Quotes from brothers would be a help as well.

No. 1 - I would say my previous comment on the exaggerated denying of the soul is a Big one. Someone could elaborate on that !

Can you help me? I really do mean a list I could give someone - literally. I have someone in mind.

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Old 08-31-2008, 01:46 PM   #2
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Default

No 2 - The exaggerated form of submission.

I posted something along this line on the LCS thread - it applies to your request.

My view and understanding of submission was very distorted from my youthful impressions and training in the local churches. I understood submission to be the same as slavery to the point of walking with your head down and behind someone to whom you were submitting. Whether it be top elders wives or brothers under Witness Lee, I saw this practice and it was revered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell
Process,

You make a good point. What a complex system we were all caught into! It's a culture of extremes.

A few years ago I went to a meeting for whatever reason...I ended up there. As I looked around the room, I noticed the faces of the sisters. It was remarkable. Many had an almost a blank look on their faces. Even if they were smiling, their eyes looked hollow. Based on what you've shared, I'll call this a "Stepford" look. I think it is probably very common. I have known one sister in particular for many years, who is the wife of a dominating elder husband. She has had that Stepford look, an almost permanent pained look on her face, as long as I can remember. So you're right, not all elder families were "privileged". Many women try to cope the best they can, and that often means denial.

Nell
In most areas of my life, I have reached a pretty objective and peaceful place, but I have a couple of odd leftover issues here and there - one is how I react to the word submission. It either makes me feel angry and make an internal fist to fight back or I may have physical reactions, too. Maybe it is some odd form of post-traumatic syndrome? When I hear the word, I think about sister's that behaved just like described in this and the posts by Process. I occasionally tried to behave like a 'stepford wife', but it never really fit.

I am working to gain a healthy Christ-based understanding of submission.

Last edited by blessD; 08-31-2008 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:52 AM   #3
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

i just found this forum
but for me, LC damage me when i found out that they're talking behind my back, gossiping about me..
How could they do that? I thought they were in the same Body??
After that, I just can't pray, can't read the Bible..
Because every time i try to read the Bible, i thought, those people who did things to me read the same bible as i do, but it didn't change them.
I thought christian supposed to be better than those who never read the Bible?

forgive my screwed up english
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Conval,

First of all welcome to the forum.

So sorry for what you have experienced. As you will quickly find out by browsing around the various boards here, you ARE NOT ALONE! There are many people who have had been hurt and damaged, and a number of them have come to this forum for dialogue and even for healing.

One thing I would strongly encourage you to do is NOT GIVE UP ON READING THE BIBLE AND DO NOT GIVE UP ON PRAYING, for these are the vary foundation of our two-way relationship with God - The Bible is how God talks to us, and prayer is how we talk to Him. Tragically, many of the teachings and practices of The Local Church disrupt and distract us from this wonderful two-way relationship with God.

While the actions you have described here can be found among almost all nominal and/or immature Christians, the main source of these types of problems among members of the Local Church of Witness Lee can be found in what I have written above. While they say they are “becoming God in life in nature” this is not possible because they spend more time learning and living the words of a mere man then they do learning and living the Word of God. They even admit this by openly proclaiming that their “one publication” is NOT the Holy Bible, but rather the words of Witness Lee. Regarding prayer, there is much I could say, but I will just tell you for now that my 35 plus years of observation and experience both IN and OUT of the Local Church lead me to tell you that much of the prayer in the LC is not what I would call “biblical prayer” at all.

When you get a chance please take some time and review as many of the threads as you can and you will get a good idea of who else can provide some fellowship and help to you.

Your brother who is unto Him
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC


It's been 6 months since i severed my links to the Borg's Recovery. It was by no means an easy or quick exit. Since 2008 I had struggled with the thought of leaving. Since completing the FTT 10 years ago, I was disillusioned with WL & LSM, yet I still endeavoured to be in the LC, with the expectation that disillusionment would be temporary.

For me, the concept of "psychological martyrdom" shows what LSM is all about. I wrote to LSM in 2008 expressing my concern that such teaching was dangerous and erroneous. No reply as yet to any of my emails.

Let me say this: one day, I stormed out of the FTT and travelled out of town to see my much beloved "mentor". He put on his psychiatrist's hat and I played the part of a client. I told him two brothers had been thrown out of the FTT for asking questions. (That day I had no heart to tell him of my own doubts about WL & LSM.) I gave my opinion; I said, "It could have been handled differently". I paused. Within a few seconds his posture and attitude to me changed. He raged violently pointing his finger at me and made a vacuous accusation against me. Immediately he phoned the co-worker in charge of the FTT informing him that I would be returning in a few hours.

I was stunned by his reactions. Yet he did not say another word and promptly told me to leave. That day marked the beginning of my exodus from the LC.

The relationship with my mentor declined slowly over the next 10 years. He would exploit & abuse me to further his own image. He has Narcissistic Personality Disorder as did WL. There were times when I was suicidal. Over 5 years I have pulled out my 50% of my facial hair. I did not fully realise the depth of abuse he administered to me until I finally cut my links.

I probably will never be part of any church group ever again. Currently I'm on anti-depressants and find it very hard to integrate with society in general. However relationships with my mother & siblings have slowly recovered.

Peace!
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11of101 View Post
It's been 6 months since i severed my links to the Borg's Recovery...
Hello 11of101,

Sorry and saddened to read about your experience. May your healing come speedily.

May I ask you a few questions:
Were you brought up in the LSM/LC ? Is your biological family in the LC?

How long were you in the LC ?

What made you want to go to the FTT?

When did you drop out of the FTT ?

What is your relationship to Jesus Christ ?

Do you still believe in HIM ? Do you believe His Word is TRUTH ?

How did you find this forum ?

Thanks in advance...
Blessings and quick healing to you friend.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conval View Post
i just found this forum
but for me, LC damage me when i found out that they're talking behind my back, gossiping about me..
How could they do that? I thought they were in the same Body??
After that, I just can't pray, can't read the Bible..
Because every time i try to read the Bible, i thought, those people who did things to me read the same bible as i do, but it didn't change them.
I thought christian supposed to be better than those who never read the Bible?

forgive my screwed up english
Conval, don't worry about your English, you got your message across.

I too had to give up the Bible and everything else related to the LC after coming out. I had to to keep my sanity. So I understand what you are going thru. My heart goes out to you. Wish I had a magic wand. I'd make it all go away.

Hang in there. There is life after the LC. You'll see. It's actually better out of the LC than in it. You'll see. Your mind begins to open up. Your heart gets larger. Even the sky is more wide open and bluer.

I just hope God reaches out to you. So you'll learned it's not by your doing, like in the LC. Too much doing in the LC. It gets you down after awhile. It's abnormal. It's a mental illness really, in the LC. You'll see. Once the fog of all the crap lifts.

Be grateful to God for leading you out. It's the best thing that has ever happened to you, as far as I'm concerned.

I left back in the early 1980s. The LC was too bad for me back then, and it's gotten much worse since then. The damn place is a cult. What do you expect? I discovered that way back then.

Here's how I figure things now : No matter how bad life gets, and it can get bad, it could always be worse ; I could still be in the LC.

So be happy, you're out. Free at last!
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11of101 View Post
It's been 6 months since i severed my links to the Borg's Recovery....
Gosh, they're dropping like flies. Good. That same goes for you 11of101, as for Conval.

And what is this "psychological martyrdom" teaching. I'm not familiar with it. Is it a teaching in FTT, or the LC? Who's teaching it? Sounds extremely sick to me....like if you've got it you need a shrink, or psychoactive medication. Is it contagious? I sure don't want to get it. Hope you get well soon.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Answers to Countmeworthy questions:
Were you brought up in the LSM/LC ? No
Is your biological family in the LC? No, raised in Roman Catholic Church.

How long were you in the LC ? 20 years, the last 5 years I have only been in regular contact with one other LC brother. But I've cut all my links.

What made you want to go to the FTT?
I wanted to develop deeper meaningful relationships with other christians. But the military mentality doesn't cater enough for that. "Learn to say Amen" "Maintain the atmosphere" and the ubiqutous "No opinion" morning, noon and in your dreams.

When did you drop out of the FTT ? I completed it. I'm a sucker for self torture. REmember Full Metal Jacket,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNeBRc7W7s

What is your relationship to Jesus Christ ? I'm his deputy authority and you will say Amen, only kidding, my Lord & Saviour, of course.

Do you still believe in HIM ? Yes. Do you believe His Word is TRUTH ? Yes,
and I'm beginning to see that WL and Paul had similar personality traits.

How did you find this forum ? Can't remember. A link from thebereans I think.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Welcome to the Forum 11of101!

Thanks for that heartfelt post. Especially the part about the FTT. People need to know that for some people (many) it is not all that it appears from the outside. Many have been damaged.

In my personal opinion much of the damage is caused because the "trainers" are not qualified to teach and lead young people. What makes these people qualified? That they have been longtime Local Church members and can parrot the teachings of Witness Lee? What kind of personal lives have these people lead and what is their record of truly shepherding and mentoring people? If they are teaching from the Bible have they had any kind of formal christian/biblical education? These are mostly rhetorical questions that we all know the answer to but I thought I'd spit them out anyway.

Quote:
I probably will never be part of any church group ever again. Currently I'm on anti-depressants and find it very hard to integrate with society in general. However relationships with my mother & siblings have slowly recovered.
I surely know how you feel about not being part of any church group again - I felt the same way for a couple of years after leaving. But I can tell you that this is what God's enemy wants the most - to keep you isolated from other Christians because then you may always believe what is taught in the LC about all other churches and ministries. Without fellowship we are figuratively cut off from the Body of Christ.

Everybody out here has a different story. I can tell you that for me my "salvation" was to come together and worship God and receive sound and healthy teachings. It took a long, long time for the positive affects of worship and sound teachings to counteract all that had been instilled in me in the LC - but I'm really glad that I hung in there. If you live in a metropolitan area I can assure you that there a number of such churches and ministries close to you. Send me a PM and I will be glad to suggest some places for you.

Again, thanks for posting and may the Lord continue to strengthen and encourage you.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11of101 View Post
Answers to Countmeworthy questions:....
1101--Thank you for answering my questions.

The only reason I asked about your relationship with our Precious Lord Jesus is often times, people who leave the LC are sooo burned out, they want nothing to do with the Lord or His Word....at least for a period. I for one, would not read Ephesians for the longest time because in the 70's that is the book the LC drilled into my head. So every time I'd read a scripture, I read it from the eyes of the LC. It took many years for me to read Ephesians but today, I can read it under the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit with no problem.

When I read the Word, I often ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the Word to me so I don't read it with man's interpretation, including my own interpretation.

You're not a sucker for self torture. You were trying to do the right thing. You wanted to obey the Lord in you. You mentioned being raised Catholic.... Aww, the queen of religious strongholds ! I too was raised as a Catholic and from there went into the LC. I was 20ish. I left in 78/79 but much of the LC 'doctrine' remained in me for a long time. The RCC taught me it was the 'one true church' and wouldn't you know it, the LC in a round about way, did the same thing !

Some people manage to find Christians to connect with soon after they leave and others don't. I felt I needed to get plugged into a church a few years ago so that I could purge the LC junk out of me. But after a few years under that pastorialship, I saw junk in it too I could not agree with whatsoever. for example, at one service, the pastor told the congregation he was going to pray for the Lord to bless us financially...but that the prayer would only be for those who give their tithes and offerings THERE. If they gave their tithes and offerings elsewhere, that pastor was to bless them. It is this kind of junk I won't put up with.

Say, one other question if you don't mind ?
How much did you fork out at the FTT ? Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ? Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) How do they apply to 'teach' ?

In the 70's there was no FTT. We merely went to conferences and 'bi-annual trainings'. My 'locality' was not as bad as many LCs although many, many of the saints I knew have already left the LC too.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:22 PM   #12
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Thanks to UntoHim & CountmeWorthy.

Face to face fellowship is not for me right now. I need to re-learn how to use my mind again, to think for myself. Too much " get out of your mind and get into your spirit" mentality can make you lose your mind, your identity. Forum contact is good for now.

A few weeks after I cut myself off officially from the LC, I went one time to an RCC service, the first in 20 years. To my amazement one of the lay members took the lead to start the service. I had never seen that happen before in RCC.


How much did you fork out at the FTT ? LC supported me.
Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? Yes
Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ? From my observation the past 10 years, most graduates have a difficult time blending into society as well as the LC.
Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) The LSM system is that financial support comes from another locality. I have always found this bizarre. You should receive the “milk of the flock” locally from the flock you shepherd locally.

How do they apply to 'teach' ? You have to be an FTT graduate and an LSM loyalist.

Upon graduation an LSM co-worker offered to “take me to Anaheim”, I guess that was an indication of a “job offer”. The LC elders also offered me an FT service job, but I declined, and they never asked me why I declined. They probably had their own doubts about WL & LSM but the atmosphere in the LC in not conducive to airing doubts in public.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Thanks to UntoHim & CountmeWorthy.

Face to face fellowship is not for me right now. I need to re-learn how to use my mind again, to think for myself. Too much " get out of your mind and get into your spirit" mentality can make you lose your mind, your identity. Forum contact is good for now.

A few weeks after I cut myself off officially from the LC, I went one time to an RCC service, the first in 20 years. To my amazement one of the laity took the lead to start the service. I had never seen that happen before in RCC.

Answers:
How much did you fork out at the FTT? The LC supported me.
Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? I did.
Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ?
From my observation of FTT graduates the last 10 years, they all have trouble fitting into society let alone the LC. They are either fanatical or depressed, some suicidal. A suitable spouse is most likely to be a fellow graduate, "normal folk ain't spiritual enough" mentality. Since when did marriage pertain to the joining of spirits?
Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) How do they apply to 'teach' ?
Basically you have to be a FTT graduate in order to be considered as a potential trainer & an LSM loyalist.

Conformity in FTT takes on another level. When I was there the Sisters had the same short-bob hairstyle, and none of them shaved their legs. No femininity. YYuukk!!
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Once again, Muchas Gracias for answering my questions.
You're very much on the road to being Healed spiritually & emotionally. I totally understand.....in fact WE understand you not wanting to have much 'fellowship' if any with Christians face to face. As your Journey in Christ continues, you will hear a lot of very good teachings and in the next breath you might hear some very WEIRD teachings (especially teachings on 'tithes & offerings' which are a big business for the charesmatic church.) I've been all around the 'world' and seen some weird, weird stuff and yet there have been times when I have been soo much under the Presence of God, I could barely walk. Sometimes the Love of God is sooo great inside me, I want to 'explode' spiritually.

That said, make sure you pick up a hobby if you can..take up a sport for fun if you can, watch sitcoms and fun movies that will make you laugh and entertain you. Make friends with Christians and non Christians but keep yourself covered in the Blood of the Lamb every day. There is supernatural power beyond our human understanding in the Blood of Jesus.

Close your 'ears' to garbage talk & swearing. Close your 'eyes' to violence and sexual perversion. Sometimes we will watch a really good movie and they'll throw in a 'love' scene. Guard your heart. But stay away from sexually explicit shows/movies. Over the years, I have laughed my head off at Seinfeld. It is not the most wholesome show but I need to laugh. God did not strike me dead and I have a very close relationship with the Word of God. Sometimes I turn the channel even if it is funny because it is totally gross and disgusting OR I hear God, the Holy Spirit tell me to turn off the TV or change the channel.

The pendelum will swing from one extreme to the other most likely. It did for me. I am now finding balance in my spiritual journey. I am studying, praying and reading the Word of God more & more and 'teaching' the Word of God to my friends because the Word of GOD is MY LIFE.

I don't know if you read the scriptures or if you are taking a 'break'. When you do begin to read the scriptures get yourself a good 'study' bible. Also read from various translations. The amplified expands on the words. It gives you deeper understanding of the meaning of words.

You might already be doing this. I simply don't know. If you have questions or want some counsel, we're all here for you !

The other forum is very argumentative..even among those who have already left the LC. There are TRUTHS I learned in the LC because it was and still is the Word of God. But some of the folks over there, don't want to acknowledge that not EVERYTHING we learned in the LC was religious or bad. At least not for me. Please remember I was in the LC from 1975-79ish. There was no FTT. And I happened to be in a fairly 'good' locality.

Finally, thank you for reading my 'counsel'. I hope I wasn't too 'preachy'. Stay in touch with us. Ask questions. We are your FRIENDS. We totally UNDERSTAND everything you are going through and will be going through as you peel off the LC skin off of you.

God strengthen you, enlighten you, lead you in the Path of Righteousness, placing a Shield of Protection around you, give you WISDOM, JOY and LOTS and LOTS of laughter sprinkled with abundant Blessings above your expectation in Christ Jesus !


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Old 07-15-2010, 05:48 AM   #15
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

My wife and I had a very hard time coming out of the LC. We cried for 3 days. We tried other Christian groups. For months we searched for other places to meet.

As an aside, we even met with the group led by pastor Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl. It was a small group back then. Now I understand it's 14,000 strong. On the other hand, the Witness Lee Church in Ft. Lauderdale - or those meeting as The Local Church - that my wife and I gave our life to, & were kicked out of - is gone. God blessed Calvary Chapel instead. And decided that Calvary Chapel IS the church in Ft. Lauderdale ; even tho pastor Bob has nothing to do with Witness Lee, nor the Blended Brothers & LSM.

Anyway, we tried other groups to meet with. But we couldn't fit in. The first reason was an inability to accept the clergy/laity system. Everywhere we went they had a clergy/Laity system. They were "fallen" to us, as in falling short, based just upon that system.

We gave up. And stopped meeting altogether.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
My wife and I had a very hard time coming out of the LC....
But you are going to church now, yes ? Much more than I do. I still have a problem with the clergy/laity system. Not so much because of the pastor-clergy but because much of the mega church is big business...Lakewood for instance. There is wayyy too much focus on the following topics: tithes and offerings, healings and prosperity. Those messages seem to be go through recycling quite a bit.

Nevertheless, I respect preachers/teachers that are truly anointed imho. Ya gotta dig for them. I prefer to go to church conferences than 'church' unless they are teaching on a particular topic of interest.

And while I don't go to 'church' very often, I share the Word of God just about everyday to someone. I often have people, even kids, tell me I ought to teach a sunday bible class.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:14 AM   #17
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CMW & 11of101, it's not easy to come out of the LC. There's no one answer. Each has to find his or her own way....but we can be here for each other....
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Old 07-16-2010, 05:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11of101 View Post
Thanks to UntoHim & CountmeWorthy.

Face to face fellowship is not for me right now. I need to re-learn how to use my mind again, to think for myself. Too much " get out of your mind and get into your spirit" mentality can make you lose your mind, your identity. Forum contact is good for now.

A few weeks after I cut myself off officially from the LC, I went one time to an RCC service, the first in 20 years. To my amazement one of the laity took the lead to start the service. I had never seen that happen before in RCC.

Answers:
How much did you fork out at the FTT? The LC supported me.
Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? I did.
Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ?
From my observation of FTT graduates the last 10 years, they all have trouble fitting into society let alone the LC. They are either fanatical or depressed, some suicidal. A suitable spouse is most likely to be a fellow graduate, "normal folk ain't spiritual enough" mentality. Since when did marriage pertain to the joining of spirits?
Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) How do they apply to 'teach' ?
Basically you have to be a FTT graduate in order to be considered as a potential trainer & an LSM loyalist.

Conformity in FTT takes on another level. When I was there the Sisters had the same short-bob hairstyle, and none of them shaved their legs. No femininity. YYuukk!!
Hi 11of101,

Your moniker is interesting. The only thing I think of when I see it is 1 of 100 (He leaves the 99 and goes to find the 1 lost one), but when I try to think about 11 of ..., I get brain freeze. Oh well. Maybe you just pulled it out of a hat and it has no meaning .... okay, I'm done with that.

I just took a few minutes to check the forums this morning, knowing I probably shouldn't because I don't have any free time right now to post and I always want to .... So, here I am posting quickly because I just wanted to say welcome to you and thank you for posting.

Yes, you do need drying out time after leaving the LC. How much is up to Jesus, I think. We are all different and he takes care of us according to who we are (just like children in a family are different and need unique care). As of this year I've now been out of the LC 1 year longer than I was in it. My husband and I were in for 20. It has been quite a journey. It took me a long time after leaving to even want to be around Christians. I just didn't trust them anymore. It also took time to learn how to use my mind again (sad!), but I have found it was a worthwhile endeavor . It also took time to learn how to defeat the guilt/fear syndrome that drop could drop on me at any time seemingly out of the blue. It took time to want to read the Bible again, and when I did, then God had to keep pulling off my LSM/Lee-colored glasses.

The good news is that Jesus is the best exit counselor. He stuck patiently with me for the first few years when I couldn't (wouldn't) even talk to Him (except two times I remember and both of those I did so fearfully, afraid He might send me back to the place I did not want to go back to.)

The point of my post is that you are in good hands. He will bring you through in His time and in His way. He can take all you've been through and turn your life into what you really wanted all along, if you're like me, which is to be His and to be well-pleasing to Him. He can even fill you with hope and joy again. (I am speaking from experience!)

Just wanted to encourage you that you will make it, 'cause your not alone. He is with you. One of the first steps is being honest with yourself and others and being willing to act accordingly, as your posts show you are doing. The journey ahead of you may be bumpy at times, but be encouraged that you are on the road to regaining and standing fast in the freedom wherewith Christ has set you free.

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Old 07-16-2010, 06:46 AM   #19
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Thank you, Thankful Jane. 11of101 comes out of my love Star Trek. In ST: Voyager there was a borg set free from the collective, her monikor was 7of9. The number 101 refers to Room 101 in Orwell's book 1984 and Vault 101 in Fallout 3, a video game. I love prime numbers. You could also translate my moniker, if taken as binary numbers, into 3of5, which was also the monikor of another borg who regained his individuality (in ST: The Next Generation, episode "I,Borg") and helped other borgs regain their indentities also. I pray that I could be the reality of this monikor, if you would kindly excuse the use of LC lingo. Did that thaw the brain freeze?
As you can see I'm a born-again trekkie. Thanks to Gene Roddenberry for his "prevailing ministry".
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:05 AM   #20
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Looks like you're well on your way to 'recovering' from the 'Recovery' !

Keep looking to Jesus 110f101 ! Keep looking into the meaning of numbers too for God is the Creator of Numbers and Numbers are very meaningful to Him & He wants to reveal them to us.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 29:29
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:15 AM   #21
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Thank you, Thankful Jane. 11of101 comes out of my love Star Trek. In ST: Voyager there was a borg set free from the collective, her monikor was 7of9. The number 101 refers to Room 101 in Orwell's book 1984 and Vault 101 in Fallout 3, a video game. I love prime numbers. You could also translate my moniker, if taken as binary numbers, into 3of5, which was also the monikor of another borg who regained his individuality (in ST: The Next Generation, episode "I,Borg") and helped other borgs regain their indentities also. I pray that I could be the reality of this monikor, if you would kindly excuse the use of LC lingo. Did that thaw the brain freeze?
As you can see I'm a born-again trekkie. Thanks to Gene Roddenberry for his "prevailing ministry".
11of101
I'm on a lunch break and saw your response. Brain thaw has been accomplished. Great moniker! Thanks for explaining it. I still remember the first time my husband and I saw the Borg on Star Trek. We both said "Wow, it's the Local Church!" I have often used "the Borg" to refer to my experience there. I'm not a true Trekkie, but I think I've probably seen most of the episodes. It took us a number of years to catch up on 20 years of news, etc., that were a blank page . I too pray that the "reality" of your moniker become yours!

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Old 07-16-2010, 04:19 PM   #22
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We are the Borg of Christ. Your church will assimilated into the collective. Resistance is futile. You will comply. You will say Amen!

Oh sorry, that was flashback from the FTT.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:45 AM   #23
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We are the Borg of Christ. Your church will assimilated into the collective. Resistance is futile. You will comply. You will say Amen!

Oh sorry, that was flashback from the FTT.


A sign of recovery ... a sense of humor (and getting to express it without feeling guilty)!!

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Old 07-17-2010, 05:30 AM   #24
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Again, thank you to everyone here.
Cyberspace, the final frontier....

Ok enough of that. I appreciate that there are those who don't subscribe to Gene Roddenberry's "ministry", even hate sci-fi.

Hate is irrelevant. You will learn to say Amen!

again I do apologise for for that interruption. Alter-ego be quiet, you've had your Star Trek fix for today.

Now, where was I, I found this webpage helpful.

http://www.religion-online.org/showc...itle=419&C=254

Live long & prosper in the Lord!!
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Old 07-17-2010, 07:10 AM   #25
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Actually, 11of101 many out here are fans of Star T. On the berean forum many ST videos have been posted from youtube. I'm a big fan of the Pakleds....."You're smart." "We're far from home." "We look for things....things that make us go." "We're strong now."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lxIL1WlxSQ
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Old 07-17-2010, 12:11 PM   #26
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5FvK...eature=related
Nazis:the Occult Conspiracy.
You can see a striking parallel with the history of LR in USA.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:21 PM   #27
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A message to all who participate in this forum:

Concerning CRI & LSM:
I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this post. During the week I have been posting comments on the video below in an effort to warn people about the LR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugLJZA-UT1w

After a few days the owner of the video blocked me from posting and deleted some of my comments. Yet again LSM worker bees can not be reasoned with and as usual silence all criticism by default.

This is a call to to all my fellow ex-members of the Borg's Recovery to bombard the video with comments. I'm not sure how effective it will be, yet I believe we all should continue steadfastly to expose the dark side of the Borg's Recovery. Forgive my melodramatic tone, many of you have been faithfully doing this already and I'm just a newly liberated borg eager to engage in a guerilla war against the "hive mindset" of the collective.

Last edited by 11of101; 07-17-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:08 AM   #28
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I have Christian friends who just have No idea what a group that is "abusive" causes to one's psyche. Yes, I will use that word! We forgot we had one, or were told not to use our "mind" - how many times ? ??????? We are body, soul and spirit - I still believe that. But the "soul" was such a no no, put it down, deny, deny, deny - who could Live that way?
I would say my previous comment on the exaggerated denying of the soul is a Big one. Someone could elaborate on that !
To Witness Lee's credit, once in the late 1990's he did at least admit to having allowed the "spirit" to become the all-important focus, resulting in a serious neglect of the believer's soul and it's need for proper care and shepherding. Here is that portion.

Shepherding the Correct Part of People's Tripartite being: <-- Click Here for audio
"Here I like to say a little word, we have learned from the past, we thought we should shepherd people's spirit. Right? Because we stress people's spirit so much, and then we tell people to reject the soul, and that, that is not so right. Today the saint's problem is with their soul. Of course you may say, if their spirit is strong there will be no problem! But how could their spirit be strong, when they have a lot of things in their soul? So we have to learn how to shepherd their soul, how to touch their soul."
[Witness Lee - ''The Training and the Practice of the Vital Groups'' - Pg77, Tape 9FVGT08 - Living Stream Ministry]

The document link above contains several audio clips that are worth hearing. It seems that back in 1943 [In Chefoo] there was a much clearer understanding of the need to shepherd the saints souls.

But to my registration, no leaders ever responded to Witness Lee's weak late nineties word of correction. The predominate focus on the spirit and the resulting soul neglect and abuse continued much as it had been before he ever spoke this warning.

You can find additional items regarding this problem at my site www.Shepherding.org

P.S.
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Old 07-19-2010, 05:14 AM   #29
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Exclamation Stampeding

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Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe View Post
To Witness Lee's credit, once in the late 1990's he did at least admit to having allowed the "spirit" to become the all-important focus, resulting in a serious neglect of the believer's soul and it's need for proper care and shepherding. Here is that portion.

Shepherding the Correct Part of People's Tripartite being: <-- Click Here for audio
"Here I like to say a little word, we have learned from the past, we thought we should shepherd people's spirit. Right? Because we stress people's spirit so much, and then we tell people to reject the soul, and that, that is not so right. Today the saint's problem is with their soul. Of course you may say, if their spirit is strong there will be no problem! But how could their spirit be strong, when they have a lot of things in their soul? So we have to learn how to shepherd their soul, how to touch their soul."
[Witness Lee - ''The Training and the Practice of the Vital Groups'' - Pg77, Tape 9FVGT08 - Living Stream Ministry]

The document link above contains several audio clips that are worth hearing. It seems that back in 1943 [In Chefoo] there was a much clearer understanding of the need to shepherd the saints souls.

But to my registration, no leaders ever responded to Witness Lee's weak late nineties word of correction. The predominate focus on the spirit and the resulting soul neglect and abuse continued much as it had been before he ever spoke this warning.

You can find additional items regarding this problem at my site www.Shepherding.org

P.S.
Great post PS!


It's amazing how we humans can get so caught up in messages from a single source. Many of the saints throughout Christianity are guilty of this.
This is why we/they are suffering from the condition of Psycho-stagnation!

It is so clear in the scriptures (John 13 vs. 12-17) that we must take care of the needs of each other and the lost. Not by literally washing ones feet but meeting there physical and spiritual needs by the cleansing power of The Word and by the everyday caring/loving for the actual needs of the sheep "By His Leading."

How could any group go so long and miss that?
How is it that when WL did speak on that topic nothing happened?

Answer: They the saints were closed/to busy to hear anything else but that which came out of a brothers mouth!

What a shame!

Not that these ones were listening, but that they made a conscious choice to only receive insight from one gift of God. When God had provided so much through all of us gifts. This then caused the whole situation to mutate into something very shallow and dangerous! This behavior can only be likened to one thing.

"Stampeding!"

Here's some verses to consider:

Ezekiel:
17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.


We as Christians need to become more aware that when we serve The Lord it is no small matter! Where we step and how we step has the potential to affect others in a serious way.

We should also remember how great a Savior/Shepherd we have and not take Him for granted but lean on Him for our every need.

We must also be open to all The Lord has provided.(Every Christian great or small!) otherwise we will reap the fruits of our carelessness and find ourselves eating from the trampled pastures and muddy waters that we treaded through.

In Short, Psychological Damage in the LC and everywhere is caused by looking before leaping and not considering the cost.


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Old 07-19-2010, 05:22 AM   #30
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To Witness Lee's credit, once in the late 1990's he did at least admit to having allowed the "spirit" to become the all-important focus, resulting in a serious neglect of the believer's soul and it's need for proper care and shepherding. Here is that portion.
WL ministered from the Bible for close to 70 years, so of course we can find certain valuable "insights" in his "vast online ministry" at LSM.

But you are missing the point.

There's not a single pastor on earth that does not realize the importance of the believer's soul. How could we have ever reached the point where we have to be reminded of the "importance of the believer's soul." How skewed that ministry must have been all along to arrive at that conclusion. It was WL's ministry, and his ministry alone, that had brought us to that condition, so we didn't just need some "correction," we needed some serious purging in the Recovery. It is the ministry of WL that needed to be purged out as leaven.

And ... why was there an abnormal emphasis on the believer's spirit over the course of many years? The answer is simple. WL's ministry was designed and distorted in order to create zealous followers who placed his ministry above all else. Above their local church, above their jobs, above their families, and even above their own personal walk with the Lord. These followers placed oneness with WL, the so-called "oneness with the ministry," first in their lives and their hearts. This was not accidental. This was forced upon them.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:11 AM   #31
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WL ministered from the Bible for close to 70 years, so of course we can find certain valuable "insights" in his "vast online ministry" at LSM.

But you are missing the point.

It was WL's ministry, and his ministry alone, that had brought us to that condition, so we didn't just need some "correction," we needed some serious purging in the Recovery. It is the ministry of WL that needed to be purged out as leaven.

The answer is simple. WL's ministry was designed and distorted in order to create zealous followers who placed his ministry above all else. Above their local church, above their jobs, above their families, and even above their own personal walk with the Lord. These followers placed oneness with WL, the so-called "oneness with the ministry," first in their lives and their hearts. This was not accidental. This was forced upon them.
Forced? Each step made by every saint that marched with him chose to follow blindly! Chose to hear only him! And chose to run off the figurative cliff.

Thank goodness it was a figurative cliff. Since it was there can be restoration.

To say that WL from the beginning crafted a plan to cause the saints to place his ministry above the Lords is a stretch! Unless you were involved and know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The fact is the sheep after being officially denominated, nominated a king. Whether they knew what they were doing or not.

Peace.
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1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:37 AM   #32
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[COLOR="DarkGreen"] It is so clear in the scriptures (John 13 vs. 12-17) that we must take care of the needs of each other and the lost. Not by literally washing ones feet but meeting there physical and spiritual needs by the cleansing power of The Word and by the everyday caring/loving for the actual needs of the sheep "By His Leading."

How could any group go so long and miss that?
How is it that when WL did speak on that topic nothing happened?

Answer: They the saints were closed/to busy to hear anything else but that which came out of a brothers mouth!

What a shame!

.....
We as Christians need to become more aware that when we serve The Lord it is no small matter! Where we step and how we step has the potential to affect others in a serious way.

We should also remember how great a Savior/Shepherd we have and not take Him for granted but lean on Him for our every need.

We must also be open to all The Lord has provided.(Every Christian great or small!) otherwise we will reap the fruits of our carelessness and find ourselves eating from the trampled pastures and muddy waters that we treaded through.

Good stuff here & on what P.S. shared.
One of the most difficult things I had to 'overcome' when I began to 'mingle' with Christians outside the LC parameter was being critical and judgmental of them. They prayed differently than I did. The sang differently than I was taught to and of course they DRESSED differently than I did !...and here I was outside the LC for 25 plus years CRITICIZING the way they worshipped, the way they Praised, that they prayed in 'tongues', on & on it went. Yet the Lord would tell me soo loud and clear: SHUT UP and LISTEN ! I'm trying to shed the old wine skin off you! As time went on, I learned to OBEY the Voice of God starting with LISTENING to HIM. This was a HUGE test for me.

We were brainwashed to listen and obey Lee's voice, NOT the Holy Spirit's Voice. As time went on, God sharpened my intuition, my insight and blessed me with Patience. I stepped out on a limb. By Faith, I began to pray in tongues. Do I really know that the Holy Spirit is praying through me in an unknown language. By Faith I have to believe. However, I thank God, I have trained myself and am STILL training myself to Speak the Word of God which is powerful, active, LIVING and Operating in me. Because I speak the Word of God and teach the Word of God, then it is easier for me to believe when I pray in tongues, (ususally when I don't know how to pray about something) I truly trust the Holy Spirit (by telling Him) to pray through me.

Many Christians I know make a big deal about praying in tongues and yet they are not trained to speak the Word of God. What good is it, & how does one truly KNOW that it is the Holy Spirit praying through them, if they never pray and speak the written, ANOINTED, LIVING Word of God ?

One more comment...(hooray ??)

One of the many problems in Lee's teachings was his unbalanced approach. That he emphasized the S/spirit of man was very good but he failed to balance the teaching with the SOUL of man. Our soul is what needs HELP. Lee gave us a ton of scriptures on the spirit part of man (which is biblical) but failed to give us a ton of scriptures on the soul part of man and the physical body of man. (1 Thessalonians 5:23 The Lord sanctify you wholly in spirit, SOUL and BODY.) But it is with our SOUL, we BLESS the LORD. Our mind is in our SOUL, not our 'spirit' and the MIND of our Soul is being RENEWED day by day by the Word of God.

What Lee did was emphasize 'his' church, the 'Lord's Recovery' and the 'spirit'. Before it was called 'the Lord's Recovery', it was Christ and the church. But it was really Christ and Lee's church and slowly but surely it became Lee & the church..to this day.

How I Praise the LORD GOD for His SON, the WORD of GOD and His HOLY SPIRIT who enlightens me and strengthens me in the Power of His Might.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:00 AM   #33
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There's not a single pastor on earth that does not realize the importance of the believer's soul. How could we have ever reached the point where we have to be reminded of the "importance of the believer's soul."
This discussion reminds me of a few verses that I read this morning (ones I heard repeatedly while in the LC). What I noticed was surprising:

Matt. 25:1-2 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.


I was surpised by the Greek explanation for the word translated "wise":



G5429
φρόνιμος
phronimos
fron'-ee-mos


From G5424; thoughtful, that is, sagacious or discreet (implying a cautious character; while G4680 denotes practical skill or acumen; and G4908 indicates rather intelligence or mental acquirement)...


So, it seems the five "wise" were those whose minds were being used and were functioning well ... (not psychologically damaged). I sure don't remember anyone ever pointing this out to us.


Thankful Jane


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Old 07-19-2010, 01:28 PM   #34
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"C'mon, Jane. You know you have to get out of your mind to follow the Lord and be a faithful virgin."

And therein lies one significant source of psychological damage in the LC.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:57 PM   #35
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Forced? Each step made by every saint that marched with him chose to follow blindly! Chose to hear only him! And chose to run off the figurative cliff.

Thank goodness it was a figurative cliff. Since it was there can be restoration.

To say that WL from the beginning crafted a plan to cause the saints to place his ministry above the Lords is a stretch! Unless you were involved and know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The fact is the sheep after being officially denominated, nominated a king. Whether they knew what they were doing or not.

Peace.
Manna-Man, you may disagree with my thread, and I could debate on each point, but ... if it is really true that God's people were "not forced, chose to follow blindly of their own volition, and chose to jump off the cliff" ... then why would the Lord Jesus, when he toured the land of Judea, continually rebuke the scribes and lawyers and pharisees for being hypocritical and rotten shepherds of God's people ?!?!?

If what you are saying is true, then Jesus would have given them a free pass, and rebuked all those Israelites.

Please explain this to me.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:32 PM   #36
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Forced? Each step made by every saint that marched with him chose to follow blindly! Chose to hear only him! And chose to run off the figurative cliff.

Thank goodness it was a figurative cliff. Since it was there can be restoration.

To say that WL from the beginning crafted a plan to cause the saints to place his ministry above the Lords is a stretch! Unless you were involved and know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The fact is the sheep after being officially denominated, nominated a king. Whether they knew what they were doing or not.

Peace.
Witness Lee may have not "crafted a plan," but it is clear that he believed in the "one man on the earth" thing all the way back in the forties. He stood behind Watchman Nee believing that, while Nee himself believed in no such thing.

It was this stronghold in Witness Lee that allowed such a plan to be crafted. Crafted by whom, you might ask...

I'll just leave it there.

Roger
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:20 PM   #37
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What made you want to go to the FTT?
I wanted to develop deeper meaningful relationships with other christians. But the military mentality doesn't cater enough for that. "Learn to say Amen" "Maintain the atmosphere" and the ubiqutous "No opinion" morning, noon and in your dreams.
First of all, the FTT is not for everyone in the recovery. If a brother or sister has an ambition for the ministry, FTT is for that brother or sister.
No opinion? If not your's, then whose?
Frankly 11of101, someone's opinion does become manifest.

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Old 07-20-2010, 04:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

The FTT is not for everyone in the recovery and the recovery is not for everyone who is a Christian. And therein lies the problem. That is why the "recovery" is not the church. The Church has a place for every believer. The Church is not looking for 'a few good men.' The recovery is only looking for those who can fit their mold. And the FTT is looking for a few good men. In a word, exclusive.

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Old 07-20-2010, 04:31 AM   #39
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For the "just me and the Holy Spirit" crowd, I have consistently noted that Jesus did not chastise the Jewish people for following the scribes and Pharisees (or at least trying to) but instead chastised the scribes and Pharisees for being such corrupt leaders. He seemed more interested in the people knowing the difference between good and bad leaders than knowing how to simply go it on their own.

And then he gave them a new group of leaders to follow and learn from. There is always the need for a shepherd. And according to Paul, He gave some. No, it wasn't so we could just wander in the fields and eat spiritual grass. It was to help us toward works of ministry. But we don't just do it on our own.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:15 PM   #40
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So OBW are you saying that all Judaism needed was some tweaks at the top? That all that Judaism needed was for the scribes and Pharisees to behave themselves, and Judaism would be just fine, and therefore there's no need for Christianity? Or are you implying that Christianity is just improved Judaism?
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Old 07-21-2010, 05:15 AM   #41
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So OBW are you saying that all Judaism needed was some tweaks at the top? That all that Judaism needed was for the scribes and Pharisees to behave themselves, and Judaism would be just fine, and therefore there's no need for Christianity? Or are you implying that Christianity is just improved Judaism?
No. But I am saying that our bad experience with LC leadership has lead us to conclude that leaders are simply bad and unscriptural when there is no scriptural evidence that is true. Judaism had plenty of problems. And its leadership was one of them. But that does not mean that Christianity was intended to be anarchy.

We like the idea of having these loose associations of Christians that are small enough that we need no leaders. And if that is all that was, then you wouldn't even have the benefit of whatever reading you do of whatever writer you like because they wouldn't have the luxury of being free to study and write, but would be workers just like the rest of us who will complain if the meeting schedule is too great.

And if you think that the doctrinal landscape of Christianity is diverse today, just imagine what it wil be without any who can give their worldly livelihoods up for service to study and preaching of the Word. Leadership was not the problem. It was leadership that was blinded by lust for power and position.

No. Judaism had a lot more problems than their leadership. But without proper leadership, they were doomed to stay where they were. Jesus came to lead them out. But he stayed physically for only 3 years then left others to continue. Yes, He is the answer. But someone has to teach if we are going to devote ourselves to the apostle's teaching, to prayer, to breaking of bread, etc. And unless you intend to gut the NT to the four gospels, there are the apostles and many other teachers who are commended to us. Look around you. There are many who are commendable today.
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:41 AM   #42
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Great & thoughtful response CBW. So as you see it to be a Christian means to be either a leader or a follower.

That means I'm not a Christian, and don't know if I want to be one. And that explains why those the became fed up with degraded Christianity, and then eventually fed up with the degraded LC, just walked away from it all ; cuz they didn't want to lead or follow.

I detect a tone against those "that go it alone with the Spirit." But suppose someone is led by the Spirit into the wilderness. Should they refuse cuz "they shouldn't go it alone with the Spirit?"

But I concede, there will always be followers, so there will always be leaders. And I say, let them have at it. May they find joy in their leading and following. It has been said, either lead, follow, or get out of the way. And some of us, myself included, would rather just get out of the way. So does that mean we are out of The Way?

Leaders and followers? Why not teachers and students? I can handle that. I learn from "leaders" all the time, I just don't want to follow them. Learning is one thing, and following is another.

Perhaps that's why the apostle Paul is credited with establishing Christianity. Cuz he said outright, "Be ye followers of me." Don't be, "of Paul; of Apollos; of Cephas; of Christ, but follow me," is double talk.

But Jesus said :
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:49 AM   #43
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Harold,

You are obviously hung up on the word follow. But a good teacher is a good leader too, and a good student is a good follower.

Nothing wrong with following if it's done intelligently. Following mindlessly is dangerous, as is mindlessly determining to never be a dreaded "follower" of dreaded "leaders."

The Lord often instructs me to follow people, e.g. my wife. Refusing to do so to avoid being a follower would be stupid and shortsighted.

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Don't get hung up defending or pushing the extremes.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:52 AM   #44
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That's why I say followers and leaders can have at it. And hope they have lots of fun about it..... And sorry if I don't join in, tho I might at times, short times...like using a stepping stone.
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:14 AM   #45
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That's why I say followers and leaders can have at it. And hope they have lots of fun about it..... And sorry if I don't join in, tho I might at times, short times...like using a stepping stone.
What specifically are your referring to when you say "that's why?"
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:24 AM   #46
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Leadership must be important. Otherwise, the Lord wouldn't have put such a heavy responsibility for accountability on them. Remember the millstone? I have no problem with leadership, and I have no problem following. But I will no longer follow anyone who tells me that I need to check my individual discernment at the door.

They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

P.C.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:07 AM   #47
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Leadership must be important. Otherwise, the Lord wouldn't have put such a heavy responsibility for accountability on them. Remember the millstone? I have no problem with leadership, and I have no problem following. But I will no longer follow anyone who tells me that I need to check my individual discernment at the door.

They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

P.C.
I do believe that godly leaders are absolutely of the Lord. And in this regard, I am not hung up on their "perfection," or the lack of failure. What I do condemn in the leaders is exactly what the Bible condemns -- those who hurt God's people, those who are in it for base gain, and those who love the glory of men.

Personally, I never considered myself much of a dynamic leader, but rather a willing supporter. Oftentimes I felt that I was able to accomplish so much in diverse ways for the benefit of the church. If that's a so-called "follower," so be it. The Bible does speak of the gifts of "helps and administrations," as blessings to the body of Christ. A healthy church needs far more than an eloquent "tongue."

This is why I have long resisted any categorical condemnation upon so many precious saints in the LC's for "following blindly." Many of them are my friends and family. They came into the LC's because the Lord led them, and they remained in the LC's because someone cares for them. Their relationships with the saints is the "glue" that keeps them. Since then, things have turned sour, the ministry got crazy, the Blindeds have misaimed, and the local leaders have wrong allegiances, but I will always place the higher responsibility on the leaders than the saints.

Just because some leaders are bad, doesn't mean we should not have leaders in the body of Christ.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:31 AM   #48
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...a good teacher is a good leader too, and a good student is a good follower.

Nothing wrong with following if it's done intelligently
.

Igzy.

As I assess my spiritual journey, through the scriptures, as a Newborn in Christ, I followed. I grew and still am growing. I studied and was tested and am still being tested. I flunked a couple of times, re-took the spiritual tests and PASSED ! To God be the Glory. Guess what ? I am not a babe in Christ anymore. I'm not drinking milk. I may still be a follower but I am a teacher and a leader in Christ THROUGH CHRIST working His Authority, His Anointing, His Power in me.

How do I know ? I understand what saint Paul meant when he wrote in Ephesians and elsewhere: 'I AM a Prisoner of CHRIST'. I UNDERSTAND for to me to LIVE is CHRIST. FOR to ME, to LIVE IS Christ.

I am as 'normal' as my next door neighbor who are not saved to my knowledge. I hang out with them. We chat about the family, the neighborhood, our lives. I don't preach to them but they know they can count on me to pray for them if they ask me to. I have not really been led to share the gospel with them although they know I am a true believer. On Halloween, we sat outside and they saw me hand out scriptures on index cards along with candy for the kids.

With others who are younger in Christ, but hungry, I teach them the Word and take them to the scriptures. I have them read them for themselves outloud. I get a lot of 'WOW!!!' I hand them the tools to apply the Word in their lives. Believe it or not, though I am instructing them to TRAIN themselves to Speak and Pray the Word of GOD, I also am teaching them what we were 'taught' in the LC. To call upon the Precious and MIGHTY NAME of JESUS. The FULLNESS of GOD is IN HIS NAME. I don't teach them to say "O Lord Jesus". I teach them to Call upon the Name of the LORD JESUS with a pure heart, from the depth of their being. I tell them to be very respectful of His HOLY NAME.

Why do I teach them to call upon His NAME ? Because JESUS is our SAVIOR and our DELIVERER. Our HELP is in the NAME of the LORD. right ?

Since I know the Power of the BLOOD of JESUS, that is the 2nd tool I teach them to use. I even tell unbelievers to apply the Blood of Jesus on them when they are scared. I tell them not to worry about understanding the words but to believe with their hearts that the Blood of Jesus covers and protects them. Do you know people have actually told me IT WORKS ??!! Praise the Blessed and Mighty Name of JESUS ! To GOD be all the Glory! Those demons TREMBLE and FLEE when they SEE the BLOOD of JESUS on us !!

If I learned nothing more 'positive' and TRUE in the LC, it was to call upon the Name of the LORD JESUS out of a pure heart in true assurance of FAITH. And to apply the Blood of Jesus on me. For HOW MUCH MORE shall the BLOOD of CHRIST, WHO THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT (that is the Holy Spirit of GOD) PURGE our consiences from DEAD WORKS to SERVE the LIVING GOD ?
Truly GOD the HOLY SPIRIT has revealed to ME THE WORD of GOD--Jesus.

I cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater. These 2 TRUTHS were ingrafted in me in the LC. They are scriptural and biblical.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:34 AM   #49
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That's why I say followers and leaders can have at it. And hope they have lots of fun about it..... And sorry if I don't join in, tho I might at times, short times...like using a stepping stone.
Brother Harold,

We both are "old-timers" to the program. And though you pre-date me by a few years, we both have our "horror stories" to tell.

I read your recent story of a young sister on the Bereans site. Less than a year after I departed from the LC, one of my closest friends took his life. I really loved that brother. We were very close, and had passed thru many trials together. What a generous brother with such a kind-hearted sense of humor! It was a total shock to everybody. At his funeral, I remember complaining to an Cleveland elder who came, and he repeated to me that "the church bears no responsibility" in his death. Later on, I heard stories of his "skeletons" in the closet, and I basically didn't want to hear them. I wanted to keep the memory of our friendship intact, without the demons.

This morning my wife was reading Proverbs, and she commented to me "if only RR could have read the Proverbs, maybe he could have received help." Interesting comment, four years after the fact. The book of Proverbs basically was removed from the Recovery Bible. WL did that. Can I blame a suicide on WL? Not directly. But, what do we say about a brother in the LC's for 20 years, enjoying "God's best," who ends his own life" Do the leaders bear NO responsibility?

God prizes good leaders. He will one day "crown" them with glory. (I Peter 5.4) Even though we both have confronted far more bad leaders than good ones, we should not condemn them all. This is currently my own struggle -- connecting to a congregation with good leaders whom I know cannot be perfect.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:49 AM   #50
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.
If I learned nothing more 'positive' and TRUE in the LC, it was to call upon the Name of the LORD JESUS out of a pure heart in true assurance of FAITH. And to apply the Blood of Jesus on me. For HOW MUCH MORE shall the BLOOD of CHRIST, WHO THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT (that is the Holy Spirit of GOD) PURGE our consciences from DEAD WORKS to SERVE the LIVING GOD ?
Great post, CMW.

Your time in the LC was mostly healthy. I remember when John Smith visited us in Columbus, and shared on Rom 8.13. He was a gifted teacher.

Like you said, "let's not throw the baby out." I also have received many precious things in the Recovery.
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:08 AM   #51
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This morning my wife was reading Proverbs, and she commented to me "if only RR could have read the Proverbs, maybe he could have received help." Interesting comment, four years after the fact. The book of Proverbs basically was removed from the Recovery Bible. WL did that.
One of the first books I read after leaving the LC was Proverbs. I did not know Lee basically removed it. But in my tenure with the LC, he rarely mentioned it. His 'baby' was Ephesians..."Christ and the church', which became 'Lee and the church'.

Quote:
God prizes good leaders. He will one day "crown" them with glory. (I Peter 5.4) Even though we both have confronted far more bad leaders than good ones, we should not condemn them all.


Quote:
This is currently my own struggle -- connecting to a congregation with good leaders whom I know cannot be perfect.
I hear ya Ohio, but it's time you, me and the saints step up to the plate. We may not 'need' a congregation to lead. But we ARE leaders. We ARE teachers. We have the MIND of CHRIST ! And we got our work cut out for us. The harvest is ripe and the labourers are few. We have a three fold job if you ask me. Bring more unbelievers into the Kingdom of God, disciple them and build up the saints, encouraging them in Christ, including those who are still struggling in the LC and former LCrs. We all have to gird up our loins, put on the WHOLE ARMOUR of GOD that we may fight the wiles of the devil. We got to put on the Helmet of Salvation, protecting our ears from his lies, the breastplate of Righteousness protecting our Heart, our spirit. We've got to take the SWORD of the Spirit which IS the WORD of GOD. That is why we must never stop training ourselves to speak the Word of God. And hold on to the Shield of FAITH. Only by Faith can we trust and walk in the Word of God. Let's also not forget to apply the Blood of Jesus on us every day for the Blood cleanses us, protects us and covers us. We do this and we are good to go in the ARMY of GOD !! Halleluiah to the Lamb of Jehovah!

What does Philippians 3:13 say: forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, and what does Jesus say in Revelation 21:5 ? Behold, I make all things new.

His Words are Faithful and TRUE.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:40 AM   #52
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They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

P.C.
You've never said it better, Paul.

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Old 07-22-2010, 12:02 PM   #53
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Great post, CMW.

Your time in the LC was mostly healthy. I remember when John Smith visited us in Columbus, and shared on Rom 8.13. He was a gifted teacher.

Like you said, "let's not throw the baby out." I also have received many precious things in the Recovery.
John was/is a gifted teacher not only in word but by example. He was my spiritual father/teacher/mentor. I never considered Lee my spiritual mentor/teacher/father even though we read the life studies.

If I'm not mistaken, John had been a Baptist preacher before coming into the 'Recovery'. He too has long left the LSM/LC. Praise the Lord. He knew when it was time to go, when the anointing of the Holy Spirit on the LC was no longer there.
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Old 07-22-2010, 02:59 PM   #54
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They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.
It's also amazing how they treat the new arrivals so differently from the departures.

Years ago my wife was a part of a small SW LC. They would lay out the red carpet for any saints moving to their place, but there was no way they would return that favor for those leaving or moving away. The elders would publicly and privately manipulate those who would even think about it.

When my wife finally moved away, just after the chaos of the quarantine of Ingalls and others, she left secretly and silently, in the middle of the night. Then all the saints wondered, "why did she do that?" Duh ......
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:21 PM   #55
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Brother Harold,

We both are "old-timers" to the program. And though you pre-date me by a few years, we both have our "horror stories" to tell.

I read your recent story of a young sister on the Bereans site. Less than a year after I departed from the LC, one of my closest friends took his life. I really loved that brother. We were very close, and had passed thru many trials together. What a generous brother with such a kind-hearted sense of humor! It was a total shock to everybody. At his funeral, I remember complaining to an Cleveland elder who came, and he repeated to me that "the church bears no responsibility" in his death. Later on, I heard stories of his "skeletons" in the closet, and I basically didn't want to hear them. I wanted to keep the memory of our friendship intact, without the demons.

This morning my wife was reading Proverbs, and she commented to me "if only RR could have read the Proverbs, maybe he could have received help." Interesting comment, four years after the fact. The book of Proverbs basically was removed from the Recovery Bible. WL did that. Can I blame a suicide on WL? Not directly. But, what do we say about a brother in the LC's for 20 years, enjoying "God's best," who ends his own life" Do the leaders bear NO responsibility?

God prizes good leaders. He will one day "crown" them with glory. (I Peter 5.4) Even though we both have confronted far more bad leaders than good ones, we should not condemn them all. This is currently my own struggle -- connecting to a congregation with good leaders whom I know cannot be perfect.
First to Igzy : You must have missed it. I said "I say" in post #42

To Ohio :
I had a friend that committed suicide. I saw it from the beginning. First he suffered a Psychotic Break. And that was obvious. He started hearing voices, and thought the whole world was out to get him, particularly The Government. They were hiding everywhere, with sophisticated listening devices from afar off, including from airplanes and the like.

Then he heard a voice on the radio that told him to write a note to a woman he was seeing, put it in a shaving case with a lock, take it from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami, give it to a homeless man -- along the way he was certain that the DEA, FBI, CIA, were following him, and hiding in the tollbooths -- then the radio told him that it would contact the woman, and tell her where to go to find the homeless man, and where to find the key, that the radio had told him to hide somewhere in Miami.

Needless to say, the friend he was living with became concerned for his safety, and has problems sleeping. So eventually he did what is called in Florida a Baker Act, where the men in the white jackets come to force him into the nut house for evaluation. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia & paranoia, given medication and released.

But he couldn't even make toast for himself, so his brothers came from Michigan and brought him with them, where he blew the top of his head out with a gun.

Needless to say, it was a strange and unexplainable thing to watch, that ended with a horrible out come.

Would the lord judge such a one? I don't...and can't.
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Old 07-23-2010, 04:03 AM   #56
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To Ohio : I had a friend suffer a Psychotic Break.
Like I said, awareness, we both have a few stories to tell. :verysad:

This too happened in my own household. First the voices, the strange, erratic behavior, talking to people who were not in the room, then the numerous incidents with the police, even the FBI -- Oh the stories, so many stories -- trying to explain to others, then the paranoia, the hospitals, the doctors, the drugs, etc.

That was only one person, there was another one more recently.

While we can't blame the LC for genetic predispositions, definitely the narrow-minded, judgmental attitudes we all received from the teachings of LSM added to all the pain and compounded the complications we faced. A major factor common to "Psychotic Breaks" is deep seated insecurity and the fear of rejection, both of which are present in my two family members. Oh it's convenient to place all the responsibility on "chemical imbalances," but one's own life history is a huge factor indeed.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:16 AM   #57
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While we can't blame the LC for genetic predispositions, definitely the narrow-minded, judgmental attitudes we all received from the teachings of LSM added to all the pain and compounded the complications we faced. A major factor common to "Psychotic Breaks" is deep seated insecurity and the fear of rejection, both of which are present in my two family members. Oh it's convenient to place all the responsibility on "chemical imbalances," but one's own life history is a huge factor indeed.
Bro Ohio, there does exist actual examples -- dear brothers and sisters -- that went seriously wacky from the LC, and leaving the LC. There are those that ended up in a mental institution....and many of the ones that didn't end up in the nut house, just escaped getting caught, and went "at large." Maybe I'm one of them.

I mean that. Shaking the LC wasn't not easy, I repeat, NOT EASY. For one thing, the LC world, and the world at large are so drastically different. Being 'at large' is not easy after the LC. Some maybe find a way to fit back in, but some don't. And some make it, but end up like me.

And some that I know personally, fell into drinking, or the like, trying to escape the internal pain, that nags day and night, from crossed wires, between the embedded LC world, and the new world at large. Let's face it, the world at large is genuinely scary, and is overwhelming at first. Shock and trauma come to mind.

This kind of mental reaction when leaving the LC is just more proof that the LC environ is a cult environ ; it's so drastically different from the world at large, and it runs deep into the mind...and the habits developed while in the LC don't just shake off ; and they don't fit in in the world at large.

What ever your position on whether the LC is a cult or not, one thing is for sure, the LC is a definite inescapable whammy to someone's life. Buyers beware.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:37 AM   #58
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What ever your position on whether the LC is a cult or not, one thing is for sure, the LC is a definite inescapable whammy to someone's life. Buyers beware.
Based on all I have learned thru my experiences and studies, two factors (there are others I'm sure) played a huge importance in the LC impact on our lives. The first was our upbringing. The healthier our family was, the less we were affected. The more dysfunctional it was, the worse we fared.

The second was the shepherds we had. The more they behaved like program zealots, the more we were hurt. The more they cared for us as godly shepherds, they more we were saved.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:55 PM   #59
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1Th 5:14 We urge you, brothers, to instruct those who are idle, cheer up those who are discouraged, and help those who are weak. Be patient with everyone.
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:19 PM   #60
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The second [LC factor] was the shepherds we had. The more they behaved like program zealots, the more we were hurt. The more they cared for us as godly shepherds, they more we were saved.
In the other thread, I wrote:
Quote:
A professor of religous studies was asked to read Psalm 23. He read it to the audience and got a standing ovation, claps and cheers. This professor then asked a true preacher of the Word of God to close in prayer. The preacher closed it by praying the Psalm 23 again.

When the true preacher finished reading/praying Psalm 23, the audience was in tears. They were convicted. There were no claps, no cheers, no standing ovation. Just TEARS.
I forgot to add, the professor asked the preacher why the difference. Why did he get applauds & cheers while when he read/prayed, the audience cried.

The preacher answered:
You know the Psalm. I KNOW the Shepherd.
True story...happened in Canada in the 70s.
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:46 PM   #61
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In the other thread, I wrote:A professor of religous studies was asked to read Psalm 23. He read it to the audience and got a standing ovation, claps and cheers. This professor then asked a true preacher of the Word of God to close in prayer. The preacher closed it by praying the Psalm 23 again.

When the true preacher finished reading/praying Psalm 23, the audience was in tears. They were convicted. There were no claps, no cheers, no standing ovation. Just TEARS.
Where did you hear this story? Sounds to me a lot like those urban legends made up by some duplicitous Christian, trying to lift up what they deem God ordained preachers, over and above Ivory Tower professors.

I can't tell you how many emails I get of these kinds of claptrap Christian false urban legends. I've got a cousin that's a magnet for them, and that falls for them time and time again, even after I prove every one she sends me is just made up. She acts like she loves falsehoods above facts & reality...all that know her know it, and so send these made up stories to her. They feed into her wackiness.
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:15 PM   #62
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I can't tell you how many emails I get of these kinds of claptrap Christian false urban legends.
Are those like the claptrap noble Indian/Great Spirit urban legends?
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:19 PM   #63
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Are those like the claptrap noble Indian/Great Spirit urban legends?
Yes, I believe they are....little difference really.
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:21 PM   #64
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Yes, I believe they are....little difference really.
Then if you want you friend to come here and talk about his urban legends, why wont' you allow CMW? Or would you rebuke your friend, too?
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Old 07-23-2010, 03:37 PM   #65
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Where did you hear this story? Sounds to me a lot like those urban legends made up by some duplicitous Christian, trying to lift up what they deem God ordained preachers, over and above Ivory Tower professors.

I can't tell you how many emails I get of these kinds of claptrap Christian false urban legends. I've got a cousin that's a magnet for them, and that falls for them time and time again, even after I prove every one she sends me is just made up. She acts like she loves falsehoods above facts & reality...all that know her know it, and so send these made up stories to her. They feed into her wackiness.
You don't believe it. Don't. The Word of God is not wacky. Religious people are.
BUT I WILL tell you something that is absolutely TRUE which happened to ME. At the 'wake' of my friend's father. It was a Catholic service even though my friend, her mom & dad and some of the siblings are saved. It began with a 'Rosary'. It was followed by the 'choir' singing. I am not being mean spirited here but it was the most pathetic choir put together. It was made up of old people singing songs to Mary mostly. The person who led the Rosary spoke very eloquently between the beads. She is an attorney so she is 'trained' to carry herself very well.

Following that part of the 'service', anyone who wished to share some words remembering Henry got up on the podium.

A couple of people went up and then I delivered the message God gave me. I posted it on the other forum and also on this one. Look for it if you want. There were 400 people at the wake because I asked the funeral directory what the attendance was.

When I finished speaking, I saw several people teary eyed. After the service, around 15 people came up to me telling me how moved they were by what I shared. I was totally under the anointing of the Holy Spirit of God when I got up. One person gave me her email addy and asked me if I would email the 'message' or what ever it was I gave to her. She asked if I spoke in churches. No, I told her. She told me I ought to.

I spoke the Word of God the Spirit gave me and I spoke it from my heart, from my spirit. GOD moved many people to tears. Not balling like a baby. Just quiet sweet tears.

Why do you think they were moved but not when the Rosary & the singing took place ? It is because I have a RELATIONSHIP with MY LORD, MY SHEPHERD, MY KING. The others merely recited vain repetitious prayers that never reached the throne room.

Harold, remember the dream you told me you had ? Why do you suppose you were not sitting atop a mountain of Gold ? You may not have been buried underneath that 'mountain' but you were still a top a stinky mountain. Could it be you have stinking - thinking ?

Still love you Brother.
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Old 07-23-2010, 03:51 PM   #66
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Harold, remember the dream you told me you had ? Why do you suppose you were not sitting atop a mountain of Gold ? You may not have been buried underneath that 'mountain' but you were still a top a stinky mountain. Could it be you have stinking - thinking ?

Still love you Brother.
The mountain was a mountain of crap, which represented what my life had become after the death of my son. And I was celebrating on top of that mountain, as in victory. What it told me was I had conquered the crap in my life at that time thru total surrender to God, the morning before the dream. And I doubt that surrender to God made me stinky. The stinky was under my feet.

But sis, I am just about as stinky as everyone else, if that's what you wanted to hear.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:11 PM   #67
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The mountain was a mountain of crap, which represented what my life had become after the death of my son. And I was celebrating on top of that mountain, as in victory. What it told me was I had conquered the crap in my life at that time thru total surrender to God, the morning before the dream. And I doubt that surrender to God made me stinky. The stinky was under my feet.

But sis, I am just about as stinky as everyone else, if that's what you wanted to hear.
Without the Blood of Jesus, without the Living Water flowing in us and through us, we are all stinky for sure. That's why we all need to cleanse ourselves every day spiritually as we do physically.

You are correct about the dream. My bad. I'm sorry. You did overcome the crap. Keep that in mind...always. In another post, you wrote this to OBW:
Quote:
as you see it to be a Christian means to be either a leader or a follower.

That means I'm not a Christian, and don't know if I want to be one. And that explains why those the became fed up with degraded Christianity, and then eventually fed up with the degraded LC, just walked away from it all ; cuz they didn't want to lead or follow.

I detect a tone against those "that go it alone with the Spirit." But suppose someone is led by the Spirit into the wilderness. Should they refuse cuz "they shouldn't go it alone with the Spirit?"
The biggest problem with the saints leaving the LC (& other controlling churches) is they stop searching the scriptures. I think it is because everytime they read a scripture, it reminds them of the LC. We went through soo many scriptures that it is hard for us to seperate the Pure Anointed Word of God by the Spirit of God and the voice of lee & the LC.

To be continued...
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:31 PM   #68
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In my experience, the closer I was getting to the Lord, the more I was reminded of my closeness to the Lord in the LC for I DID have a relationship with Jesus. When I called on the Name of the Lord with the saints, I made a conserted effort to concentrate on HIM. I had to PRAY and ask the LORD to reveal to me if He wanted me back in the LC as I was returning full 'force' to the Word of God. With time, I learned not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Quote:
Making more comments on what you wrote Harold:
I detect a tone against those "that go it alone with the Spirit." But suppose someone is led by the Spirit into the wilderness. Should they refuse cuz "they shouldn't go it alone with the Spirit?"
Don't die in the wilderness. RUN to the 'promised land', the land flowing with Milk and Honey. Run to JESUS! He is the promised Land flowing with Milk and Honey. I wandered in the wilderness many years & I ended up in the valley of the shadow of death. NOT FUN !

Another danger of going at it 'alone' with the Spirit is the person will not always know WHAT spirit is guiding them ! We are to TEST the spirits the scriptures tell us. Your friend who got burned out in the LC was led by a 'spirit' to his religion. What spirit was that ? Where do we find the GREAT SPIRIT OF GOD ? In the Fresh, Anointed Word of God.

Satan quoted the scriptures to Jesus and he is a spirit. He knows the Bible. But he has no Revelation of what the scriptures say ! He can quote backwards and frontwards without it meaning anything to him or his minions.

Why do you think Paul understood so very well the scriptures ? He had an intimate relationship with Jesus. So when he wrote Hebrews 4:12, he said the Word of God is LIVING and POWERFUL. It was operating in his being because JESUS was ALIVE inside of HIM. And God the Holy Spirit kept opening his eyes, removing the veil.

Without JESUS being ALIVE inside of us, without the Revelation of the Word of GOD through the Power and the Anointing of the Holy Spirit working in us and through us, the scriptures are dead and meaningless.

Lee & the LC eventually sucked the LIFE out of the saints with all the life studies, trainings and the 'new flow' whatever it was for that season.

When people leave the LC very few get baptized anew in the River of Living Waters.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:43 PM   #69
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Where did you hear this story? Sounds to me a lot like those urban legends made up by some duplicitous Christian, trying to lift up what they deem God ordained preachers, over and above Ivory Tower professors.
Whoa Bro,

What got into you? Talk about smackin' a sister upside the head!

Can you give her the benefit of the doubt, or at least question how certain cmw is of the story's veracity?

We accept your stories at face value, why not extend the courtesy?

You just havin' a rough day? If so, that's understandable.

Peace.
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Old 07-24-2010, 07:51 AM   #70
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Whoa Bro,
Well, I guess I was a bit hard on prophetess CMW. But I did ask her where she heard the story, and she didn't provide the source.

And yes, I am a little tired of Christians making up stuff to support their beliefs. If you have to make up stuff, then your faith can't be very real can it?

And I'm serious, I get all kinds of this crap in email. I guess I'm a magnet for it too. My cousin is not the only one that sends them to me. And it's not just the made up stuff, that gets to me, but the gullibility that believes them without question.

So again, giving CMW the benefit of the doubt, where CMW did you hear or read that story? Let's look into it and see if it is a real and true story, that actually happened, or if it's completely made up.

And if it really happened, I'll fall all over myself apologizing. I'll even kiss CMW's feet...or wash them...

We don't need made up stuff to support Jesus. Made up stuff is not a true testimony for Jesus. It's lying.

And CMW hasn't done anything wrong. Many, many Christians believe made up stuff, and pass it around on the web.

But after her LC experience, CMW shouldn't be so gullible any more, to just fall for stories cuz they tell her what she wants to hear. CMW has enough real spirituality that she doesn't need made up stuff.

But thanks, bro Ohio, for being iron that sharpens my countenance. I do get a little dull over time. Thanks for the smackin' aside the head. I'm a hard head. Use a 2x4 next time.
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:09 AM   #71
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Well, I guess I was a bit hard on prophetess CMW. But I did ask her where she heard the story, and she didn't provide the source.

So again, giving CMW the benefit of the doubt, where CMW did you hear or read that story? Let's look into it and see if it is a real and true story, that actually happened, or if it's completely made up.
I heard it from a brother who said this was told to him when he lived in Canada in the 70s. Was it true ? He said it was. And I know his WALK with the Lord so I believe him. I ALSO WROTE and told you what happened at the wake when I gave the message during the Eulogy. I am not boasting in MYSELF. God's Anointed Spirit delivered the message and had 400 people GLUED to what I was delivering. It was not a sappy, emotional message but You could hear a pin drop had one dropped. As I'm looking at the audience, I could see people's tears. The message was about JESUS and HIS LOVE. It was about confession and repentance and the crowns. Did you read it brother Harold ? Afterwards, about 15 people came up to me to tell me what a 'beautiful message I delivered. No one went to the person who delivered the eloquent 'rosary' and that person gave me a 'look' afterwards. I suppose she thought I stole 'her thunder.' I didn't. The LORD did.
And if it really happened, I'll fall all over myself apologizing. I'll even kiss CMW's feet...or wash them...

Quote:
And yes, I am a little tired of Christians making up stuff to support their beliefs. If you have to make up stuff, then your faith can't be very real can it?

And I'm serious, I get all kinds of this crap in email. I guess I'm a magnet for it too. My cousin is not the only one that sends them to me. And it's not just the made up stuff, that gets to me, but the gullibility that believes them without question.
Awareness, I understand where you are coming from for there is a LOT of weird junk in the Christian community. I kept close tabs on Todd Bentley and the Lakeland, Florida Revival in 2008. I tried to give the benefit of the doubt to this full body tattoed freak. I finally couldn't take it anymore and before too long this revival crumbled as they discovered Bentley was fooling around w/his assitant & doing drugs.
Oh but the 'presence of God' was surely there, it was reported. OF COURSE it was ! When a person is living a sanctified, holy life unto God, praying, studying the Word, sharing the Word, surely the Presence of God and His Anointing will be there ! That's a no brainer !


Quote:
But after her LC experience, CMW shouldn't be so gullible any more, to just fall for stories cuz they tell her what she wants to hear. CMW has enough real spirituality that she doesn't need made up stuff.
You are CORRECT. And I'm NOT AS gullible as you think ! But I am not quick to judge either for that is what the LC taught me to do. The Word of God tells us to tests the spirits for there are many SEDUCING and DECEPTIVE spirits. I am still in the learning process and so should each and everyone of us here !

WE are the LIGHT of the WORLD shining in a very dark place !
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:47 AM   #72
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Use a 2x4 next time.
Funny you mention a 2x4.

Another poster once "sent me" a 2x4 to "prop me up" while I was taking a terrible beating on the forum. I really appreciated that.

I then passed it on to another poster brother who was in need.

This same 2x4, which some may use for evil, we may use for good. (Genesis 50.20) Isn't God wonderful?
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:56 AM   #73
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But after her LC experience, CMW shouldn't be so gullible any more, to just fall for stories cuz they tell her what she wants to hear. CMW has enough real spirituality that she doesn't need made up stuff.
Like you said, brother awareness, our sister cmw has enough "real spirituality," that we should extend to her the benefit of the doubt for the testimonies she posts. Over time, she has earned the respect of many posters here. To ask for more clarification is fine, and even to be expected, but I don't think it's fair to discredit her.

Peace.
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:21 AM   #74
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Like you said, brother awareness, our sister cmw has enough "real spirituality," that we should extend to her the benefit of the doubt for the testimonies she posts. Over time, she has earned the respect of many posters here. To ask for more clarification is fine, and even to be expected, but I don't think it's fair to discredit her.

Peace.
Why Thank You Hermano Ohio. I am honored and very humbled by your kind words. I honestly do study and pray w/o ceasing pray. If I cannot read the Word, I listen to teachings by various brothers and on occassion sisters if I find valuable teachings. I have learned the valuable power of singing Praises to the Lord. I make up songs to Him. If I am not speaking the Word of God, I am constantly saying softly and sometimes very loud "Praise You Lord Jesus." Praise You Jesus. Thank You Jesus." The Lord has giving me discernment. But it took a long time.

No matter how screwed up many of us became through the LSM/LC stronghold, many of the teachings were not BAD at all.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, we were TRAINED to call upon the Name of the LORD JESUS. EXCELLENT teaching. Where lee and we failed imho is we boxed His Mighty Name into a vain, repititious clanging symbol.

A first grader is taught 1 + 1 = 2. That is what Lee taught us. "O Lord Jesus" is like saying over and over again 1 +1 = 2. By the time we get to 2nd/3rd grade and beyond, we learn 3-1 = 2, 2 x 1= 2, & 4-1 = 2 etc. We can arrive at the same answer 2 using various numbers.

We got BORED and I believe as did God by using the same exact formula to contact Him: 'O Lord Jesus', 'O Lord Jesus.' That's why we dried up like prunes. We stopped calling upon His Lovely, Precious Name out of a pure heart. We stopped believing in the Power of His Name. Not on purpose. It just became routine. And you married brothers should know what it's like when you tell your wife or vise versa 'I love you' out of HABIT without any pzzzzAzzz in it.

Lee also left out a whole bunch of teachings to my knowledge because he was sooo focused on 'the Recovery'. He wanted sooo badly to be a cut above the rest of Christianity and thus he snubbed his nose at everyone else. WE, foolishly followed suit ! That's why soo many people got screwed up.
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:13 PM   #75
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Like you said, brother awareness, our sister cmw has enough "real spirituality," that we should extend to her the benefit of the doubt for the testimonies she posts. Over time, she has earned the respect of many posters here. To ask for more clarification is fine, and even to be expected, but I don't think it's fair to discredit her.

Peace.
Asking her to source something does not a discredit make.

And I guess y'all all should know that CMW and I have each others cell phone numbers, and have talked some of the nitty-gritty of our lives with each other, and both realize in a big way that God has poured His grace out on us abundantly, even tho we deserve it not one bit. And our conversations have been nothing but glorious.....
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Old 07-25-2010, 06:48 AM   #76
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Asking her to source something does not a discredit make...
It did seem a little harsh at first, but thanks for explaining your point of view. I really didn't want to choose sides between friends ...
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:03 PM   #77
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It did seem a little harsh at first, but thanks for explaining your point of view. I really didn't want to choose sides between friends ...
No big deal bro Ohio. It never hurts to be taken down a beg or two.

But let me give you a little example. I tell you a story about when Jesus was a young boy, and how he withered a boy he was playing with, for sweeping puddles away that Jesus was using to make clay Sparrows. And how the boys parents took the withered boy, along with Jesus to Joseph and Mary, demanding Jesus fix what he did.

Well, you read my story and think right off that I'm making the whole thing up, out of whole cloth.

So you challenge me, saying, Hey, Jesus didn't do no such thang. You're making it all up. Such a story doesn't exist. Prove it.

So then I point out that the story does indeed exist, and has been around since around the 2nd century AD. And can be found in "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas," and then I provide a link as prrof --> http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

And that's how we learn from our conversations.....

And that's all I was doing to my sister CMW. Turns out I was wrong. That CMW did not get that story from email. She got it way back in her early days in the LC, from a brother she trusted.

I remember those days too. I remember that in those days I was certain that no Christain, particularly of the LC type, could ever lie. Boy was I a sucker.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:54 AM   #78
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Great post, CMW.

Your time in the LC was mostly healthy. I remember when John Smith visited us in Columbus, and shared on Rom 8.13. He was a gifted teacher.

Like you said, "let's not throw the baby out." I also have received many precious things in the Recovery.
Speaking of precious things Ohio, did you know there is a partial message by John Smith online? I have many more tucked away somewhere on reel to reel tape. John not only was gifted, he also had the heart of a shepherd.

I think you will enjoy hearing his speaking again.
The recording is located at www.OurSecondGeneration.com

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Old 07-27-2010, 09:11 AM   #79
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Asking her to source something does not a discredit make.

And I guess y'all all should know that CMW and I have each others cell phone numbers, and have talked some of the nitty-gritty of our lives with each other, and both realize in a big way that God has poured His grace out on us abundantly, even tho we deserve it not one bit. And our conversations have been nothing but glorious.....

To all, I really love talking to Awareness over the phone. He is soo funny and genunine. We can talk about anything and everything. I think he should gargle with some spiritual listerine at times. but I have friends with big hearts whose vocabulary is far more 'colorful' than Harold's. And don't misunderstand..he doesn't SWEAR or CURSE...he simply uses other descriptive words for 'trash'. And this 'saintly' person..me, does not. I just yell and get in people's faces when I 'lose it'. And thankfully, I don't have many of those days.

Hugs to Harold and to all the saints on this forum....something we could never do in the LC for we could get 'coodies' or something.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:46 AM   #80
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Puzzling

How can the BBs sleep well? On one hand they say they are for the preaching of the gospel, yet on the other hand, quarantining "rebel" co-workers causes "collateral damage". Can't they see how counter-productive this is?

And worse, "rebellions" are part of LC folklore. What nation can stand if mass purging of a sizeable % of its citizens occurs every 10 years? The Aztecs were
amateurs by comparison.

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Old 07-28-2010, 06:52 AM   #81
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.........
Why thanks CMW. By the way, that spiritual Listerine? Do they sell it at Wallyworld, or Walgreens?
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Old 07-28-2010, 06:55 AM   #82
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Puzzling How can the BBs sleep well?....
It's a Chinese thang, perchance. China has a long history of purges. And the BBs are blended with a Chinaman.
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:00 PM   #83
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

My wife just gave me a little book by Gene Edwards, "Letters to a Devastated Christian." The cover mentions those "damaged by an overly authoritative Christian group ... who demand extreme submission and passivity from their members."

Edwards at one time was a part of the Recovery, so this book may have first hand contacts in the LC's.

Anyone out there ever read this book?
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:24 PM   #84
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My wife just gave me a little book by Gene Edwards, "Letters to a Devastated Christian." The cover mentions those "damaged by an overly authoritative Christian group ... who demand extreme submission and passivity from their members."

Edwards at one time was a part of the Recovery, so this book may have first hand contacts in the LC's.

Anyone out there ever read this book?
I haven't read that book. But in searching for it on the web I ran across this :

"Edwards spent a year in intensive study of early Church history, then began to seek out anyone who had known Watchman Nee and his church planting ministry in China. He first sought the company of Beta Sheirich, a former co-worker of Nee's who had returned from China to a fellowship in Louisville, Kentucky."

Wow! That's hitting close to home. But who is Beta Sheirich? I have never heard of this co-worker of Nee's.
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:52 PM   #85
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Post Beta Sheirich

Hello dear ones, beloved of God.

How sovereign is God! As many of you dear ones know, I have really been making up for lost time ever since we were led out of the LC 3 1/2 years ago, I just seem to have a voracious appetite for the ministries of all gifted ministers of Christ. I love to read and I love to visit (and my dear family, so far, has been happy to come along).

Not that long ago we visited an assembly which primarily (but definitely not exclusively) receives dear brother Gene Edward's ministry. I was able to listen to a set of audio tapes which contain brother Edward's testimony (it sounded like he was speaking to a roomful of Baptist pastors, preachers, evangelists, etc.). There were lots of mentions of this dear sister Beta Sheirich during his testimony. Apparently sister Beta played a role in Gene Edward's spiritual formation which was very similar to the role played by M.E. Barber in WN's life.

If I remember correctly, sister Beta was an American who went to serve as a missionary in China. It sounded like she went to China at some point in the 1930's or 1940's. Once she began to gather with "The Little Flock", she gave up her denominational affiliation and became a sort of "independent missionary". I honestly don't know if dear sister Beta was really a "co-worker" of WN's, or if she was simply a long-term faithful sister in one of the assemblies. The Communist take-over of Mainland China forced her and all the other Westeners in "The Little Flock" to flee back to their homelands.

I may be wrong on this point, but it sounded like brother Edwards found out about sister Beta before he ever began co-laboring with WL. Once brother Edwards was away from WL, he reconnected with Beta. She apparently was always there to give her prayers, her loving support, and her words of wisdom. It may have been through Beta Sheirich that brother Edwards got in touch with the co-worker of WN's from Hong Kong named James Chen.

Sister Beta has apparently gone to be with the Lord. One thing is for sure - she meant a lot to Gene Edwards. There is no mistaking the fondness in his voice each time brother Edwards mentions her during his testimony.
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Old 07-29-2010, 06:38 PM   #86
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Hello dear ones, beloved of God.
Thanks KTS. That helps a lot. More than I hoped for actually.

So why, if Lee knew spiritual sister/s had such an influence Nee, was his movement so male dominated? Surely he knew. And if he knew and then established his ministry as male dominated, wouldn't that make him a hard-headed misogynous of some sort? Just wondering.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:01 AM   #87
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Thanks KTS. That helps a lot. More than I hoped for actually.

So why, if Lee knew spiritual sister/s had such an influence Nee, was his movement so male dominated? Surely he knew. And if he knew and then established his ministry as male dominated, wouldn't that make him a hard-headed misogynous of some sort? Just wondering.
Yes indeedie. Yes indeedie.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:34 AM   #88
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I've been having night terrors 2,3 times this past week. I've been having one a week for the past 6 months. I wake up screaming. It's very disturbing. It upsets my neighbors, so I'll be speaking to my doctor about it.
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:03 PM   #89
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I've been having night terrors 2,3 times this past week. I've been having one a week for the past 6 months.... I'll be speaking to my doctor about it.
Dear 11,

Good idea. All that stuff about denying your soul-life is presumptive on having a soul to deny. A little attention from the professionals is probably in order.
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:17 PM   #90
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God prizes good leaders. He will one day "crown" them with glory. (I Peter 5.4) Even though we both have confronted far more bad leaders than good ones, we should not condemn them all. This is currently my own struggle -- connecting to a congregation with good leaders whom I know cannot be perfect.
Here is an idea: don't look for a leader. Be a leader. I pretty much can guarantee that near you are christians who are even more rudderless than you, looking for some guidance on how to get back home to the Father. As soon as you begin to counsel them, the Lord Himself will manifest and begin to lead you, all, together. Voila! You have an assembly. Tiny, pathetic by most 'conventional' standards, but precious in God's eyes.

From there, just follow the Spirit. The Lord will lead you home. I would warrant that you have been equipped far more than you realize. The Lord led you through that particular briar patch for a reason. You are now ready to serve Him. May the Lord bless your journey.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:56 PM   #91
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I've been having night terrors 2,3 times this past week. I've been having one a week for the past 6 months. I wake up screaming. It's very disturbing. It upsets my neighbors, so I'll be speaking to my doctor about it.
Dear 11of101, this sounds a lot like something I was mercilessly and consistently beat up with a few years back. Problem was, I somehow knew that the "leading brothers" in my LSM connected local church would have no real answer for me. I knew they would simply point the way to the nearest shrink. Besides, everyone in the LC knows that "front row brothers" just shouldn't have these kind of problems.

So I continued to suffer under the night attacks for months. During this time I was asking God desperately for deliverance, until a Christian counselor I was acquainted with put a little booklet by Win Worley into my hands. God used the information contained in there to provide an effective way of escape for me.

I recommend you check out my website which is constructed around that very same booklet. Some of Win Worley's ideas I still do not fully agree with, but to be faithful to the light given him by God (he is now with Jesus) I present the text there almost exactly as he wrote it. At the bottom is included a youtube video entitled "A Demon Attacked Me In My Bed" - which I feel is also very helpful. That young man's victory parallels my own.

May you experience complete victory over the darkness which always lies to the left and to the right of the "narrow way". And may you be filled to overflowing with the Joy of the Lord Jesus!

P.S.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:58 PM   #92
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Dear 11of101, ....I recommend you check out my website which is constructed around that very same booklet. Some of Win Worley's ideas I still do not fully agree with, but to be faithful to the light given him by God (he is now with Jesus) I present the text there almost exactly as he wrote it. At the bottom is included a youtube video entitled "A Demon Attacked Me In My Bed" - which I feel is also very helpful. That young man's victory parallels my own.
Dear 11, I hope that you have begun to have some relief from the night attacks. Today I came across another online resource and immediately thought of you. Until today I was not aware of a rather simplistic term to describe this - Sleep Paralysis:

The following comes from the website:
LINK--> Stop Sleep Paralysis - How to terminate Sleep Paralysis

StopSleepParalysis.org is dedicated to helping people end sleep paralysis experiences, as well as prevent them from coming back. We hope to provide all the information you will need to do this on this site, but if you have more questions, or need individual help, you can email us at help@stopsleepparalysis.org.

Information

NOTE: Be aware that I have not yet watched the 2hr video, so you are on your own there buddy!

If this checks out ok, it will likely become available as a link at the www.No2Porn.com website.

Blessings to you 11 of 101, and may you become Free Indeed! (John 8:36)

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Old 08-23-2010, 11:36 AM   #93
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A proposal

Why don't a bunch of ex-LCers band together and sue LSM for psychological damage. If we win, everything minus legal fees goes to charity. They're not true brothers, they're modalists.

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Old 08-23-2010, 01:48 PM   #94
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Hi 11of101,

I think it is just too much of a monster tarbaby for most ex-LCers. I spend a lot of my time helping people that are trying to recover their sanity and/or families. That seems to be a better use of my time. Of course I'd love to see them have to pay for what they have done to so many people, but I don't like the idea of stooping to their level (though getting that low is almost impossible) to sue them.

I take comfort in knowing that they absolutely will not get away with what they have done. They will have to give account for every last drop of sin they've committed against God's people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God and in my opinion that is exactly where they are headed.

I have been and will continue to pray for the heavens to rule and reign and for Jesus to save. According to Moses, "..all God's works are perfect and all His ways are judgment." God is REAL and they are going to be weeping and gnashing their teeth for a long time when they see themselves in His light.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:43 AM   #95
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I've been having night terrors 2,3 times this past week. I've been having one a week for the past 6 months. I wake up screaming. It's very disturbing. It upsets my neighbors, so I'll be speaking to my doctor about it.
110f101,

I have hesitated to reply to your post because I don't know how you would receive my suggestion. But what the hey.....take it for what it's worth.

First. Regardless of my time in the LC, the WORD of GOD is TRUE and FAITHFUL. There IS POWER in the Blood of the Lamb of God -Jesus.

There IS POWER in His Holy and Healing Name. God PROMISES to save us when we call upon the Name of JESUS with a pure heart.

If there are any biblical truths I hold on to with dear life, it is these 2 TRUTHS.

These two TRUTHS is the first thing I teach my friends and acquaintences on.
Why? Because almost everyone I know, INCLUDING myself have been confronted with demons. 2 of my friends have seen the 'Grim reaper' close to the cemetary they live by...(the grim reaper is a hooded entity with a sickle (spelling) in his arm. The face is never shown.) I don't know if it's supersticious or not but demons ARE REAL.

I have never seen a demon but I have felt their presence a handful of times. I have felt them walk towards me. And on occassion, a very large demon was standing by my bedside trying to choke me. I never saw it but felt its ugly presence.

HOWEVER....since I pray without ceasing pray. Since I study the Word of God voraciously. Since I have a very close relationship with Jesus, our LORD and KING. Since I apply the Blood of Jesus on me daily and call on His Precious Name with a pure heart, I don't fear demons. I don't fear nightmares.

I have had many a nightmare where I end up calling on the Name of Jesus or/and speak of His Blood in the nightmare. It comes soo very natural to me.

But I've had years and years of practice.

When the demon was trying to choke me, I could not speak. However, with my heart and with my MIND, I began to say 'Jesus...Jesus...Jesus'. The GRIP on my throat began to loosen and the demon began to step back. (I did not open my eyes but I could feel what was happening.) As soon as the grip had been removed I began to whisper with my MOUTH, "Jesus." I began to get louder and louder until I was shouting JESUS ! JESUS! JESUS !! LORD JESUS!! This lasted about 5-10 minutes. I then fell into a restful sleep.

Other times, I have actually felt a demon or demons walking towards me. It has always happened in my bedroom while just about going to sleep. As soon as I have felt that dark, weird, ugly presence, I start sprinkling the Blood of Jesus on me and in my room. I call on Jesus and sprinkle His Blood in my room and thoughout the whole house.

Each time, the demons have fled instantly. The only one that dragged his ugly legs a little longer was that HUMONGOUS demon trying to choke me.

I always tell my friends to apply the Blood of Jesus every day. The Blood cleanses us, covers us and Protects us. The Name of JESUS saves us.

My friends trust what I teach them because they have known me all their lives. Before, during and after my LC days. They are happy to have me 'back' but a much better version.

A few days ago, one of my friends had a dream. I will only tell you a very small part of it. She was sitting on the edge of a bed when someone told her there was a demon sitting beside her. She told the person she did not care if there was a demon or not. She was covered in the Blood of Jesus. The person told her it was still THERE and she kept giving her the same answer. Finally my friend turned her head towards where the demon was supposed to be sitting next to her. She did not see it but spoke to it as if she had and said "I am not afraid of you. I AM COVERED BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS!'

At that moment, the dream ended and she woke up refreshed.

What I need you to know is this is the FIRST TIME she has ever spoken of the Blood of Jesus in her dreams. My friend has been oppressed by many demons over the years. She usually turns the TV on for light when she senses an evil presence. I've been 'hammering' into her the Power of the Blood of Jesus and the Power of the Name of JESUS.

She has come a long ways from battling drugs and depression. I told her that was the first dream she has ever experienced the Power of the Blood working in it. The reason being is she is learning to apply the Blood of the Lamb of God on her every day and with a pure heart and full assurance of Faith In Christ, she is calling on Jesus as she is learning to stand on the Word of God.

I hesitated to share this with you because I know the 'LC' drill. Of course, I don't know if they teach on the Blood of Jesus anymore. And the way they 'call on the Lord' is soo robotic and mechanical. There is no Love coming from their hearts. But when I call on Jesus, my heart is filled with His Love. I love our Lord Jesus. I love Father God and His Precious Holy Spirit.

May you be saved and delivered speedily, quickly and immediately from your night terrors.

May you be comforted by Psalm 55:3-6 & 15-18
Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked: for they cast iniquity upon me, and in wrath they hate me.

4 My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me.
5Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me.

6And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest.

Let death seize them;
Let them go down alive into hell,
For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

16 As for me, I will call upon God,
And the LORD shall save me.

17 Evening and morning and at noon
I will pray, and cry aloud,
And He shall hear my voice.

18 He has redeemed my soul in peace from the battle that was against me,
For there were many against me.


Also:


Psalm 34:17-19

The righteous cry, and the LORD hears
And delivers them out of all their troubles.

The LORD is near to the brokenhearted
And saves those who are crushed in spirit.

Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the LORD delivers him out of them all.
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:27 PM   #96
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Thank you. I haven't had any night terrors since I posted about them. It must be the Spirit's interceding amidst the dark groanings. I've started to read the word again, the Psalms, coincidentally. I got as far as Psa. 33 this morning and was surprised and delightedto see your quote from the next psalm, #34. The Spirit moves in mysterious ways.

I also told my doctor about them, and I'm taking some meds for it. I was also have digestive tract issues, and am takings some meds for that too. My sleeping patterns have changed for the better as a result.

I must say that since aborting from the Borg Cube, I've been feeling more positive, in general. I haven't been so positive for a very long time, not since the early 'honeymoon' phase of the LC. I know I am just beginning this next phase of my walk with Jesus.

I guess the dark depression was a price I was willing to pay to be a part of the LC, but when I started go insane, I knew I had to made a radical change in my life. I never imagined that one day I would be so glad to be out of the LC.

To all the lurkers out there, don't believe everything LSM says. You need to recover the berean spirit that Lee's ministry pummeled out of you.

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Old 08-28-2010, 09:14 AM   #97
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110f101,

I have hesitated to reply to your post because I don't know how you would receive my suggestion. But what the hey.....take it for what it's worth.

... almost everyone I know, INCLUDING myself have been confronted with demons.

...I have had many a nightmare where I end up calling on the Name of Jesus or/and speak of His Blood in the nightmare. It comes soo very natural to me.

But I've had years and years of practice.

When the demon was trying to choke me, I could not speak. However, with my heart and with my MIND, I began to say 'Jesus...Jesus...Jesus'.
CMW--

I can confirm your testimony because of my own experiences which lasted over a period of twenty years. My experience began with a specific event and ended with a specific event. I know this because the Lord told me. He told me because I asked Him "why is this happening to me"?

I think this is an important topic because of where we've been. I would like to share with you from my personal journal about my experiences, written over 20 years ago. The similarity to what you have written is amazing. There can only be one reason for that. I'm going to write to you, CMW, and if anyone wants to read along...welcome. It's a long story, but I've created a Readers Digest Condensed version. This is a clump out of the middle of the story which will be put into context soon.

TERROR, SIN AND DEMONS
...All those years ago, in Austin, in that little dark room on Mayfield, something unholy took place. Whatever I did to bring that judgment on myself was one matter; I did agree with your judgment and took it as from the Lord. However, I believe that the spirit of fear came to me that night to sift me like wheat.

Not long after that meeting on Mayfield Street, demons began attacking me in my sleep. Every few weeks I would be attacked. Once, I was in hospitality, sleeping in the same room with another sister. That night I was attacked in my sleep. The next morning the sister asked me if I was OK. I said "Yes, why do you ask?" She told me that during the night, she heard me calling on the Lord with a deep, painful sounding groan.

I have since found out that one of these demonic spirits has a name "Incuba." This demon is described as one who attacks women sexually in their sleep. These attacks were so frequent that eventually I could resist and rebuke them and not even wake up. It felt like hands around my throat and pressure on my chest, holding me down. It was very hard to speak or wake up. I would fight desparately in my sleep to speak the name "Jesus". That’s all I could manage. His Name. It was a desparate fight, but I was always eventually able to speak His name. This is what the sister heard taking place that night she heard me groaning while I was asleep.

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Old 08-28-2010, 10:18 AM   #98
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Default Psycholigical Damage: Principle of Church Discipline #1

November, 1993

Written by Nell to a former elder in the Local Church (unmailed)
THE PRINCIPLE OF CHURCH DISCIPLINE
November, 1993 UNMAILED

Dear Herman,

Recently you told us when you were an elder (in the Local Church), you held certain principles and you dealt with people according to your principles. Though you no longer hold the office of elder, (no longer meeting with the Local Church) you told us you still hold these principles. I'm referring to our talk on November 7, Sunday morning.

I think it would help you to know how your principles have affected my life. I’ve recently told Jane about what happened to me in that little dark room on Mayfield Street in Austin all those years ago. I only told her in September, this year. I don't think my problems are special. The pain I have been through is probably not any worse than yours. The difference is, I didn't cause your pain. You did cause mine.

Since your wife and I have been close in the years since that time, I think you realize that I have forgiven you and all the brothers who were there that night. This is not about forgiveness. It is about your local church principles.

When the three of us visited in your home Sunday morning (11/7/93) John tried to point out to you that we were three people (John, Jane and I) who were affected profoundly in a negative way by these principles you treasure, but you dismissed us by saying "we (elders) made mistakes."

You were dismissive of our point of view and began defending your principles. John got a boatload of this kind of talk from you the day before, so he had clearly had enough. He stood abruptly, as you recall, and got in your face about your principles.

What we were hearing from you was "I'm sorry you were hurt by our mistakes in Austin, but in principle, we were right." You mentioned that you had apologized to me, and I told you I didn't remember an apology from you. I do remember discussing it with you---years later, but I will take your word for it that there was an apology from you.

That night on Mayfield Street in I think 1972-73, I listened to you, George, Rodney and Basil and I took everything you all said without defending myself. Please give the same grace to me now that I gave to you then. I’m asking you to listen to everything I have to say without defending yourself.

Nell

Last edited by Nell; 08-30-2010 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:52 AM   #99
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: Freedom in Christ #2

FREEDOM IN CHRIST
In August '93 I went through the steps to freedom in The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson. That experience was wonderful and it definitely set me free from many things. Yet there was something more that the Lord wanted and I was having a very hard time with it.

Recently, Jane had asked me "Are you unhappy?" This question devastated me. I had to answer "yes." I realized then that I was profoundly unhappy. When Jane asked me this question, I happened to be work and I was very upset. Eventually I began to pray. As I was praying, I was writing my prayer to the Lord. My prayer in part ended up being a recounting of that incident in Austin on Mayfield Street.

I was very surprised by this, because I thought I had put it all behind me. I had only told parts of this story to certain people. It was too embarrassing, shameful, painful and extremely personal to me. Possibly the Lord wanted to bring all of it back to me, so I could share it with you.

This is the essence of what I wrote to the Lord about what happened to me in 1973. I wrote it on September 7, 1993. I have personalized it to you and to me.

THE SOLUTION
Several times in my life I have felt that the solution for my miserable condition was for me to take my own life. This solution may have crossed your mind as well. The first time I considered taking my own life was after you and the elders in Austin got me in that little dark room on Mayfield Street and ripped me to pieces.

THE CAUSE
That meeting was the first indication I had that you elder brothers were not happy with me. I took everything you said to heart. I believed you were right and I was wrong. I also believed that this was something I could never recover from.

While in that room, I thought that there could be men waiting outside the door to take my dead body away.

I thought the ground could open and swallow me any minute.

I was terrified.

You would ask me if I did a certain thing or said a certain thing or thought a certain thing. I would say "Yes" that I did it or said it or thought it. Some things I admitted to doing, I was not guilty. I lied. I just thought it would be better for me not to defend myself in any way. If I was not guilty of a particular thing, I was probably guilty of something else that you didn't know about or didn't ask about.


Nell

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Old 08-28-2010, 11:00 AM   #100
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: Matthew 18 #3

MATTHEW 18
Your problem with me was related to the couple I was living with. There had been some kind of communication behind my back between you elders and this couple---without my knowledge. I don't know if they came to you first, or if you went to them, but you had gathered "evidence" against me behind my back. None of you confronted me properly according to Matthew 18. Matthew 18 sets forth a godly principle for dealing with problems among believers. What happened to me turned out to be little more than an ambush against which I could not possibly defend myself.

If this couple had a problem with me, they should have come to me first and given me an opportunity to realize what I was doing wrong, then repent or in whatever way appropriate, reconcile the situation. This did not happen. They took their offenses with me directly to the church.

This couple never hinted that they had a problem with me, they took their grievances against me directly to the church. They were violating Matthew 18. You should have helped them to see the proper way set forth in the word to deal with problems among believers, but you didn't. You also were violating Matthew 18.

As it turns out, this sister made a false accusation about me to the elders. (She accused me of using her sewing machine without her permission.) Whether she made a mistake or whether she lied, it was a false accusation. (I owned my own sewing machine. I didn't use hers or need to use hers. How was this the business of the elders?) Did any of you ever go back to her and clear it up with them?

I probably was insensitive to them, though I don't believe I was so insensitive that the church needed to get involved. She and her husband should have talked to me if they were unhappy with me. They should have made it clear to me that as a member of the household, I had certain responsibilities to them, and made a list for me to follow. That didn’t happen.

Some of the things George asked me about, I didn't even understand. I had never heard those words or phrases before. Basil was there and I had never even met him. I didn't know him and he didn't know me. He told everyone that he didn't sense the spirit from me. At that moment, neither did I. I thought I was dead. I was terrorized and humiliated beyond belief. Rodney was there. He was family. He and my brother were married to two sisters. How humiliating was that? I certainly didn't expect such treatment from him. Was he going to tell my brother about this? God have mercy on me.

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Old 08-28-2010, 11:23 AM   #101
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: Deal with the Lord #4

DEAL WITH THE LORD #4
That night, you all told me that I should not go home until I had a thorough dealing with the Lord about all the things discussed in this meeting. The ground didn’t open and swallow me. There was no one there to drag my dead body away. I went to a park, alone, about 10:30 p.m. and found a place I thought was safe, where I could do what you told me to do--deal with the Lord. I sat there trying to pray until midnight.

Nothing happened. I felt like I was in a bubble. I tried to pray but I couldn't. By 10:30 I was sitting on a big rock on the side of a cliff, hiding among the trees. I had calmed down and I felt nothing. I wasn’t afraid. I was strangely at peace. I didn't understand what was happening. Was I so bad that I couldn't I find the Lord? Was He not talking to me anymore? Eventually I got tired of sitting there and went home. None of you ever cared enough asked me about what happened later that night. In fact, none of you ever followed up with me at all. It was a hit and run.

That night the Lord gave me no confirmation whatsoever that what you brothers had said and done was of Him. I didn't have the presence of mind then to realize that what you brothers had done was not of the Lord. He did not confirm what you had done and said to me with words of His own. He just calmed me down and protected me from harm that night.


Nell

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Old 08-28-2010, 11:41 AM   #102
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: Perfect Fear Casts Out all Love #5

PERFECT FEAR CASTS OUT ALL LOVE #5
That night you and the elders told me that I had to find an apartment and live by myself. All the other young people lived in corporate living.

Soon after I moved, I was going back to my apartment one night after a meeting and I had a panic attack. It was overwhelming. I felt an incredible fear that if I continued living by myself, I would end up taking my own life and that I should just go ahead and do it. The fear I felt that night was like the fear I felt in the meeting in that little dark room, with the elders, on Mayfield Street. I was so terrified that I stopped my car at a phone booth, late at night, alone, and called you. Do you remember this call? I told you I was terrified and I felt an incredible fear that if I lived by myself, I would end up taking my own life and that I should just go ahead and do it. Of course, I was trembling and crying, near hysteria. I had been crying out to the Lord. The only thing I knew to do was call a brother, so I called you. You were one of four people on this earth who knew what I had experienced...at your own hand.

What did you tell me? You told me "Sister, you need to pray."

Pray? I was terrified! I was terrorized! Did you really think I could "pray"?

You probably wrote me off as a hysterical female who needed to deny her emotions; you thought I was just trying to get attention; maybe I was trying to make you feel badly about being mean to me. Whatever you really thought, you could have at least prayed with me. What would you have done if I had taken my own life that night?

You and the elders told me if I wanted to talk to someone I should talk to your wife or a certain other sister. Why these two sisters? They didn't know what had happened to me, so they couldn't help me! You didn't want to talk to me, even when I was terrified and near suicidal! You were the ones who knew what you had said to me and what I had said to you. How could I possibly explain to someone else what had happened to me? How could anyone else help me?

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Old 08-28-2010, 12:16 PM   #103
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: Work the System #6

WORK THE SYSTEM #6
Interestingly, it wasn’t long until I preferred my apartment rather than corporate living. Even though all the other young people lived incorporate living, I secretly liked my apartment. If it weren’t for the stigma of living "alone" I would have been happy to stay there. However, the stigma was there like a dark cloud. My goal was to convince the elders that I was fit for corporate living. Somehow I had to get out from under the implied shame of living alone. Until I did this, in my mind, there was no way for me to go on with the Lord or in the church.

THE VISION
I was on childrens meetings. As repugnant as children's meetings were to me then, the only stability in my life was the closeness with the sister I served with. That stability would last a short time, then I would be moved to another level and be paired with another sister. None of them knew what had happened to me. They only knew that I lived alone in an apartment. I couldn't tell them anything. Well, they also knew that I sat in the meetings and cried from beginning to end, especially in the Lord's Table Meeting. (That was back before the Lord's Table became Witness Lee's Table. There was a time when we actually had Lord's Table meetings that were for Him alone.)

My greatest need was the stability of another sister who cared about me. I got moved so often that I eventually I went to Fred Koch and begged him not to move me. I was crying and I told him I was desperate for continuity in my life. His response was "sister, we have a vision . . . " and he moved me to another level.

Once in a childrens workers meeting, Bill Ard made the announcement that in my level, the responsibility was being changed. The person responsible would now be a certain sister (not me). Then, he glared directly at me and said sternly "if anyone has a problem with that they can come and see me."

What a hoot! I hated children's meetings. The more they left me out of things, the better I liked it. Those folks may have had a vision, but they never saw me. They didn't even know me. Whatever judgment Bill Ard had passed on me did not change me. I was still a responsible person, and he couldn't change that or change who I am as a person. To this day I’ve never had one single conversation with Bill Ard, but he sure can glare at a person.

Finally, one Saturday morning I called the "Leading Sister" in childrens work and told her I was taking myself off of childrens meetings. Then I went to told Rodney and told him I was taking myself off children's meeting permanently, effective immediately. He talked to me a week later and told me I had been taken off of childrens meetings. I guess elders need to have the last word.

HOW TO WORK THE SYSTEM
At some point, during this time I did finally learn how to work the system. I finally convinced the elders I that I was "ready" for corporate living again. I was the same person I was the day you men ambushed me on Mayfield Street, but I was smarter. I was learning how to work the system---how to tell you elders what you wanted to hear; how to perform. Soon after, I moved in with a couple and three sisters. We all lived there together and I was miserable.

I remember breakfast together 7 days a week. Watery scrambled eggs, toast, and milk. Then "mourning watch"--it was so dead. Prefunctory. Three crowded on one side of the table and two on the other side. I was on the crowded side. One day I decided not to sit on the crowed side of the table anymore, so I moved my chair to the end of the table. I got so sick of the routine and those plastic eggs that I didn't care what anyone thought.

Why would they think anything, you ask? Eventually, the "leading sister" rebuked me. She told me that sitting at the end of the table was "different." According to her, I was like the "opposing thumb." Apparently the "opposing thumb" is not a member of the body and should be rebuked if not cut off from being what it is.

Once the sister went through my dresser drawers. She rebuked me because they were messy. She told me that the condition of my dresser drawer is the condition of my heart. I told her I did not appreciate her invading my privacy and that my heart is my business! Good for me!

Nell


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Old 08-28-2010, 12:49 PM   #104
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: 1977 and "Getting Free" #7

1977 AND “GETTING FREE” #7
That’s what you men called it. Getting free. Don Looper had moved to Austin by then and he made an announcement in a meeting that if anyone wanted to come and talk to the elders about “getting free” then they should come and talk. They would be received. I’m not even sure what this meant at the time, but it was 1977 and there were all kinds of rumors going around, most of which I knew nothing about.

Regardless, I made an appointment talk to you all about what you had done to me in that little dark room on Mayfield Street. All who were there agreed with me. They repented to me for what they had done. They repented for the way they treated me three years prior. You were not there.

During our conversation, I asked them why they didn't tell me there was a problem with me before they killed me? As far as I knew, everything was fine, then suddenly my whole world fell apart. They said they had been hearing that question a lot from saints who had come to them to “get free”. I asked them why they never got with me to help me after that meeting? They admitted they should have taken care of me and apologized for not doing so. They repented for everything I laid before them. They agreed with me that I didn’t deserve to be treated like this, and they said they were wrong.


They DIDN’T say “In principle we were RIGHT”.


TWO THINGS
I told them that there were two things the Lord had given me during this time. One was the verse in Revelation "I counsel thee to buy of me gold, tried by fire." I felt like the Lord was saying, that even though what had happened to me was unholy and unrighteous, the price I was paying would be returned to me as something pure; gold, tried by fire. Second, once when I was praying, the Lord gave me the promise that "in her (me) I find no guile." I remember Rodney saying with a bit of envy in his voice "The Lord has never told me that."


The couple who "turned me in" has not communicated with me since that time.

The second couple, the couple I later lived with, apologized for "all the things" that happened in their home. the sister told me that there is nothing wrong with wanting to live by myself. To this day, I love and appreciate her so much for that word, and for her friendship to me. Yes. I said her “friendship” to me.


I DON’T CLAIM TO BE INNOCENT
I don't claim to be innocent. Everything you brothers said to me I took from the Lord. I was tried by fire, and came through without guile. At the time I was relieved that you didn't know just how bad I really was. Regardless of how bad a person I was, I don't believe I deserved to be treated that way. You elders obviously felt that I didn't deserve it either and the ones in the later meeting told me so. I have always regretted that you were not in the meeting when the elders apologized to me for what they did in that little dark room on Mayfield Street. Maybe you were not there because you really believed “in principle, you were right.”

THE SOLUTION
When I began, I told you that I have felt that the solution for the pain I felt was for me to take my own life. Until recently (September, 1993) this thought was still with me. From time to time when I was unhappy and depressed, if I didn't stop myself, I would feel that panic and despair I felt in the phone booth that night in Austin. Until recently I felt the fear of being alone for the rest of my life, and if this is the way it's going to be, that I don't want to live any longer.

TERROR AND DEMONS
All those years ago, in Austin, in that little dark room on Mayfield, something unholy took place. Whatever I did to bring that judgment on myself was one matter; I did agree with your judgment and took it as from the Lord. However, I believe that the terror that entered my life that night gave ground to the demons; the spirit of fear came to me to try and sift me like wheat.

Not long after that meeting on Mayfield Street, demons began attacking me in my sleep. Every few weeks I would be attacked. Once, I was in hospitality, sleeping in the same room with another sister. That night I was attacked in my sleep. The next morning the sister asked me if I was OK. I said “Yes, why do you ask?” She told me that during the night, she heard me calling on the Lord with a deep, painful sounding groan.

I have since found out that one of these demonic spirits has a name "Incuba." This demon is described as one who attacks women sexually in their sleep. The attacks were so frequent that eventually I could resist and rebuke them and not even wake up. It felt like hands around my throat and pressure on my chest, holding me down. It was very hard to speak or wake up. I would fight desparately in my sleep to speak the name “Jesus”. That’s all I could manage. His Name. It was a desparate fight, but I was always eventually to speak His name. This is what the sister heard taking place while I was asleep.

Since going through the steps to freedom in The Bondage Breaker, I have had one more experience with demons in my sleep and that was about a month ago (October, 1993). I heard a noise in my house that really scared me. It was nothing. Later that night in my sleep I had a panic attack. This was the first time I could wake myself up without feeling like there were hands around my throat and pressure on my chest. I only spoke the name of Jesus, fully awake, and it was over. I went back to sleep peacefully. I feel confident that these attacks are over.

SUMMARY
When you defend your principles, you suggest that in principle, you elders were right to do what you did. What you did to me that night has had repercussions in my life for twenty years. What about this is “right”? Even after the apoligies and repentance of the elders, the attacks continued for another seventeen years. Why is that?

This is the end of my unmailed letter to Herman.

The next event occurrs in June, 1995

Nell

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Old 08-28-2010, 01:39 PM   #105
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: The end #8

June 24, 1995 - Saturday Morning
My notes on a conversation with Herman

Ever since my May 13 conversation with Herman on Saturday of Mother’s Day weekend, I have been physically exhausted. On the 14th, the day after, I thought I was tired because of the emotional trauma of the experience. May 15 I started a new job and I started the day at 5:00 a.m. followed by a 45 minute drive to work arriving at 7:00 a.m. I felt like I was drugged and functioning on artificial energy.

I had the thought that there might be some kind of problem with what might have happened during my conversation with Herman related to the spirit world. That's when the fatigue started. I began to pray about that.

Time came for John, Jane and I to go on a weekend trip together. I had gotten plenty of sleep but still I woke up Saturday morning exhausted. This really upset me. I began to cry out to the Lord for answers. The Saturday before, I had prayed with the sisters that I was willing to see myself as the Lord saw me, and I believe what happened next was an answer to that prayer.

As I prayed, the Lord said to me "It happened again." I didn't understand. What had happened again? I had been dealt with severely by the elders in the Local Church 20 years ago in that little dark room on Mayfield Street. When the same elder talked to me May 13, I got another huge dose of "church discipline." He unloaded on me for two hours about violating the ground of locality, about judging the saints, about railing against *them*, about me being in danger of violating governmental principles, about me not getting "proper fellowship".

What Herman was saying had no power of persuasion over me. There was no witness within me that he was speaking the truth of God's Word. He had only preached local church doctrine of discipline, again, and ground of locality teachings at me. I could only testify that his concern and love for me was genuine.

THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
Three years ago, when I went through the book, The Bondage Breaker, I dealt with every sin the Lord brought to my attention. I had never seen before that "sin" gives ground to the demons to attack and torment the saints. If there is sin in our lives, then "legally" Satan has a right to be there. The verse says "the wages of sin is death". This is a strong message in both The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson, and War on the Saints by Jesse Penn-Lewis.

As I prayed, as I confessed the judgmental attitudes I had in my heart, the sin of self, and the dirt I had picked up from handling a dirty issue, I began to feel lighter. The more I confessed, with each name, the heaviness began to lift. Soon the heaviness and fatigue were gone. I had such a sense of peace and wellbeing that I fell asleep. I slept peacefully for more than an hour. I woke up refreshed and enlivened.

"CHURCH" DISCIPLINE?
Looking back I was sobered. The unholy, unrighteous and sinful "church discipline" I suffered had effected my life in many ways for a period of twenty years. Because of unconfessed sin in my life, there was legal ground for Satan to attack me. I knew there was a serious problem with local "church principles" and "church discipline". I did not realize that the unleashing of these principles could invoke powerful demons which would look for whatever sin in me they could find and use that to attack me. The attack was manifested in my physical body in the form of extreme fatigue. Once the sin was gone, the ground was taken away, and the fatigue left. It has not returned. I only experience the normal fatigue of daily living. The heaviness is gone and I wake up refreshed.

When the Lord said to me "It happened again" this was confirmation to me that what had happened in Austin twenty years ago was indeed demonic. The method Satan used to transmit the demons to me was the local church discipline I experienced in Austin years ago. Even the elders who administered this discipline admitted it should have never happened. I experienced those same powerful demons on Mothers Day weekend, 1995. Because of the sin in my life which I had not seen or known about and confessed and repented, the demons had legal ground to torment me, and they did.

Our weapon against demonic oppression such as I have described is simple but powerful. We must be clean; ask the Lord to expose the sin in our lives. When He shows us our sin, we agree with Him quickly, confess and repent to the extent of the light we received from Him. It won't just "go away." It has to be confessed, repented for and He will cleanse us from the sin with His blood.

1 John 1:19: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It was my sin that gave ground in my life for demonic attacks. It was the sinful, unholy and unrighteous "church discipline" administered by the elders in Austin in the ‘70's that carried out the attacks against me, and I daresay countless others. These elders were responsible, as was I.

Not all discipline is sinful, unholy or unrighteous. How do you know the difference? Godly discipline heals. Godly discipline won’t make you suicidal. Godly discipline doesn’t result in night terrors or attack you in your sleep. Godly discipline will expose your sin to you in His light, and bring you to confession and repentance. Godly discipline isn’t based on lies and false accusations.

If I'm under attack, there is a reason. I need to look to the Lord for specific, unconfessed sins in my own life and take care the "man in the mirror".

CMW, I hope this helps. Sorry it was so long.
Nell

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Old 08-28-2010, 03:06 PM   #106
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

WOW !! Nell,

One of the BIGGEST problems the leaders of the LSM starting with his highness Lee..........is they could never look at the LOGS in THEIR own eyes !...still can't!

Each and everyone of us have hidden personal sin. Only the Holy Spirit working in us is able to reveal it personally to us that we may repent of it/them.

The LSM with Lee at its' helm taught us to look to Lee & his teachings for he was the god ordained man.

That screwed up everyone's mentality...especially THEIRS !

But you are absolutely correct. If we don't confess and repent of hidden sin, sin we excuse, sin we don't admit to being sin, places like the LSM will make mincemeat out of us because our FLESH is trying to 'please' God and MAN.

It doesn't work that way. I've learned that lesson well.

Thank you soo much for sharing your personal journey with me and with the readers.

Btw, a few years ago, a sister/friend who is in the LC (but at least listens to Christian radio!!....and to ME ) came down to visit Austin. I don't live in Austin but close enough to drive her there. I got to meet some of the LCrs who still talk/dress/act the same. As pictures were being taken, they all chanted 'O Lord Jeeeeesus.' I REFUSED to chant with them. I may call upon Jesus a LOT but I refuse to trample His Holy and Precious Name using that morbid, dreadful chant.

I look forward to seeing you in a few weeks!

Carol
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:44 AM   #107
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: The end #8

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"CHURCH" DISCIPLINE?
Looking back I was sobered. The unholy, unrighteous and sinful "church discipline" I suffered had effected my life in many ways for a period of twenty years. Because of unconfessed sin in my life, there was legal ground for Satan to attack me. I knew there was a serious problem with local "church principles" and "church discipline". I did not realize that the unleashing of these principles could invoke powerful demons which would look for whatever sin in me they could find and use that to attack me.
Dear Nell,

So sorry to hear of the hell you were tormented by for decades. I too have battled the night demons. It was the precious blood of the Lamb which defeated and silenced every one of them.

On a humorous note, I can relate to the humiliation of the "underwear drawer searches" and the subsequent condemnation which accompanied their "findings," and how that was supposed to manifest how my character was "wanting" when held up to the archetype "god-man" who was also known as the "Trainer." Why is it that LC leaders seem to have the "dirt" on every brother and sister?

I wasn't sure what your "unconfessed" sin was, but LC discipline is wrought with fleshly power and control over the flock, i.e. "lording it over," from a spirit of self-righteousness. Yet, due to their LC training and bad patterns, this was a "principle" which was held onto. Rarely were the patterns of Matt 18.15, I Pet 5.2, Gal 6.1 and other scriptures seriously and prayerfully considered before ever approaching the saints.

Regarding your conflict with the sister you were living with, this was all too typical. I used to call it the "law of first complaint." It happened way too often. The first person to complain to "the authority" was automatically believed, without "the authority" ever talking to the other party. One time I was rebuked by TC in front of over hundred saints in a training for violating "the Spirit of holiness." Yet, TC never talked to me about the event, either before or after. But, he was "empowered" to chastise me publicly, and just in case there was some mistake, "didn't I have Christ" living in me, the One Who "suffered silently as a sheep to the slaughter."

May the joy of the Lord be your strength.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:54 PM   #108
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Dear Nell,

So sorry to hear of the hell you were tormented by for decades. I too have battled the night demons. It was the precious blood of the Lamb which defeated and silenced every one of them.

On a humorous note, I can relate to the humiliation of the "underwear drawer searches" and the subsequent condemnation which accompanied their "findings," and how that was supposed to manifest how my character was "wanting" when held up to the archetype "god-man" who was also known as the "Trainer." Why is it that LC leaders seem to have the "dirt" on every brother and sister?

I wasn't sure what your "unconfessed" sin was, but LC discipline is wrought with fleshly power and control over the flock, i.e. "lording it over," from a spirit of self-righteousness. Yet, due to their LC training and bad patterns, this was a "principle" which was held onto. Rarely were the patterns of Matt 18.15, I Pet 5.2, Gal 6.1 and other scriptures seriously and prayerfully considered before ever approaching the saints.
I don't remember now what the unconfessed sin was. Whatever it was, it was ground in my life for demonic attack. It could have even been something like the choices I made to obey the elders rather than the Lord. This is sin. I guess the point is that sin is sin. We need the Lord's light to shine on us to expose anything that puts us at odd with Him and His will.

Quote:
Regarding your conflict with the sister you were living with, this was all too typical. I used to call it the "law of first complaint." It happened way too often. The first person to complain to "the authority" was automatically believed, without "the authority" ever talking to the other party. One time I was rebuked by TC in front of over hundred saints in a training for violating "the Spirit of holiness." Yet, TC never talked to me about the event, either before or after. But, he was "empowered" to chastise me publicly, and just in case there was some mistake, "didn't I have Christ" living in me, the One Who "suffered silently as a sheep to the slaughter."

May the joy of the Lord be your strength.
I am thankful that the conflict with these sisters no longer exists. In this we were all blessed by the Lord's light and the grace to be reconcilled to one another.

Thank you for your kind words, Ohio. Also, thank you Carol. See you soon!

Nell
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:36 AM   #109
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: 1977 and "Getting Free" #7

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They DIDN’T say “In principle we were RIGHT”.
Nell, I am sorrowful and empathetic for all you endured. What did that mean, "in principle we were right"?

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."
"This I command you, that you love one another."
John 15:12,17

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Old 08-30-2010, 01:43 PM   #110
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: 1977 and "Getting Free" #7

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Nell, I am sorrowful and empathetic for all you endured. What did that mean, "in principle we were right"?

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."
"This I command you, that you love one another."
John 15:12,17
Terry,
I know you are addressing the question to Nell...if I may add my .02 worth here.

Who knows what they meant when they said 'in principle we were right'. Lee & his flock were/are full of gooblie-gob phrases that make NO SENSE !

For example 'the god ordained way'. What in the world does THAT mean ? It means.....the LEE ordained way. THAT'S what it means !

God the Father BLESSES us with the WORD of GOD-Jesus. He penned everything He wanted us to know..especially how to escape the Wrath of God's eternel judgment by the Blood of Jesus and the Power of the Word of God working in us THROUGH His Holy Spirit.

If we read/study the Word of God prayerfully with the Guidance of God the Holy Spirit, God is FAITHFUL and more than willing to reveal HIS TRUTH and His TRUTH-JESUS sets us free from all sin, all condemnation, all guilt.

But Lee could not and WOULD NOT simply teach the Word of God without his twist on it so that 'the church' would be different from all of degraded Christianity. And now........Lee's minions have degraded themselves and lost the anointing IF it ever really had it..lost the blessing IF it ever really had it.

That said Certainly there was an anointing and the Presence of God among us from time to time. Why? Because individual people believed in the WORD of GOD...people like you, like me, like Nell, like Thankful and so many others...MikeH who with the saints in Dallas composed those blessed and anointed Psalms to music. He and others may not want to touch them now but no matter, God touched many a heart and changed many a life through those Psalms.

Healing is a process but the closer we get to Jesus by praying His Word, letting the Holy Spirit lead us in the path of Righteousness, God will help us to forgive those who trespassed against us...as HE forgave us of our sins through the Precious Blood of the Lamb.
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Old 08-30-2010, 04:30 PM   #111
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC: 1977 and "Getting Free" #7

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Nell, I am sorrowful and empathetic for all you endured. What did that mean, "in principle we were right"?

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."
"This I command you, that you love one another."
John 15:12,17

Terry
Terry,

Thanks Carol and thank you Terry for your kind words.

The belief that "in principle we were right" is a feeble attempt to justify sinful behavior...slick words that might even sound "spiritual".

Remember the verse/question in Romans 6:1 when Paul asked "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

The Local Church Leadership answer is "Well sure. We may be sinning against the saints, but we can do that because we're in the Local Church. Even if we're wrong, we're right."

Paul's answer in 6:2 is "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

We should never put ourselves in the position of justifying sin. Never. When anyone tries to justify their sinful behavior (in principle we were right), they're also saying that Jesus Christ didn't have to die.

Nell

Last edited by Nell; 08-31-2010 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:00 PM   #112
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

I just looked at this site for the first time in many months. I can hardly believe that the thread I started on the Psych. damage in the LC was still showing up.
The great God of the universe has in His most Mighty way delivered me from all of that.
How can a person who was So bitter and angry, change? Only by God's grace. Truly it is not just words. He has made me a new person. I am so grateful to Him for taking the anger, the terrible memories and hurt, away. He gets ALL the glory.
I never believed I would be in this place today. I believed I would die a bitter person. I could never understand how so many others left the LC and were doing ok. I thought I would Never be that person.
We currently fellowship with a group in a Baptist church. The Lord through 8 years of drawing me, and changing my heart, has opened up fellowship I could only dream of. We are truly encouraged by this community of believers who truly love the Word and teach the truth.
I actually can see even more how divisive the LC is. The near idol worship of Witness Lee is very sad. It is So good to be on the other side, with peace in my heart, and pursuing the Lord only, and not a set of doctrines and practices.
Some of you will remember me as "Searching" on the other forum.
I can only say - it is all of Him!
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:09 PM   #113
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Default Re: Psycholigical Damage in the LC

Searching/FoundHim! It's so great to hear that you've been restored! Praise God! I'm so happy for you. I know we had some talks and you were feeling pretty low a few years ago. But it's wonderful to see the "new you." Take care and God bless!
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:28 PM   #114
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Hi FoundHim/Searching !

To God be all the Praise, Glory and Thanksgiving for healing your heart and healing your wounds.

Did your hubby also leave the LC for good now ? How 'bout your daughter ? They must be doing very well for you sound absolutely filled with happy bubbles of Joy !

Carol




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Originally Posted by FoundHim View Post
I just looked at this site for the first time in many months. I can hardly believe that the thread I started on the Psych. damage in the LC was still showing up.
The great God of the universe has in His most Mighty way delivered me from all of that.
How can a person who was So bitter and angry, change? Only by God's grace. Truly it is not just words. He has made me a new person. I am so grateful to Him for taking the anger, the terrible memories and hurt, away. He gets ALL the glory.
I never believed I would be in this place today. I believed I would die a bitter person. I could never understand how so many others left the LC and were doing ok. I thought I would Never be that person.
We currently fellowship with a group in a Baptist church. The Lord through 8 years of drawing me, and changing my heart, has opened up fellowship I could only dream of. We are truly encouraged by this community of believers who truly love the Word and teach the truth.
I actually can see even more how divisive the LC is. The near idol worship of Witness Lee is very sad. It is So good to be on the other side, with peace in my heart, and pursuing the Lord only, and not a set of doctrines and practices.
Some of you will remember me as "Searching" on the other forum.
I can only say - it is all of Him!
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Old 09-25-2010, 12:31 AM   #115
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I've been having night terrors 2,3 times this past week. I've been having one a week for the past 6 months. I wake up screaming. It's very disturbing. It upsets my neighbors, so I'll be speaking to my doctor about it.
i know how you feel.. i spent my last 2 years going to my doctor(for me, leaving LC is like leaving abusive marriage, it's impossible)
thankfully, my doctor is a christian, when i told him about how they treat people in LC, he almost couldn't believe it..
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Old 09-25-2010, 01:26 PM   #116
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i know how you feel.. i spent my last 2 years going to my doctor(for me, leaving LC is like leaving abusive marriage, it's impossible)
thankfully, my doctor is a christian, when i told him about how they treat people in LC, he almost couldn't believe it..
Conval,
Hi. I just went back to this thread and found this post of yours from 5/12/10:

Quote:
LC damage me when i found out that they're talking behind my back, gossiping about me..
How could they do that? I thought they were in the same Body??
After that, I just can't pray, can't read the Bible..
Because every time i try to read the Bible, i thought, those people who did things to me read the same bible as i do, but it didn't change them.
I thought christian supposed to be better than those who never read the Bible?

forgive my screwed up english

I don't think I replied & if I did I want to bring your questions to the forefront of this thread once again. Being a True Follower and Believer in the Word of God is challenging and can even be 'lonely' when it comes to our relationships with other believers.

Christians are not better than those who have never read a bible. A true Christian is simply one who has repented deeply for being a sinner and has asked Jesus to cleanse him/her in His Blood, while asking for Forgiveness and surrendering their lives to HIM. By Faith we have the Mind of Christ and are kings and priests. Practically speaking, most Christians do not appear to have the mind of Christ and do not appear to be kings and priests unto the Most High God.

There is a lot of hippocracy among professing Christians because there is a religious spirit hovering over all Believers. Those of us who truly have a one on One relationship with the Word of God through Prayer, Worship, PRAISE, Intercession for the brethren, reading/searching the scriptures for understanding under the LIGHT of the Holy Spirit, will ultimately be blessed with the spirit of Discernment. We are able to see through people even if they teach the truth, preach a good word etc...

One of the most dangerous and damaging aspects of the LSM/LC was our trust in man's teachings. Lee taught 'us'...rather his co-workers and leaders HOW we ought to conduct meetings, HOW to pray-read, HOW to call on the Name of the Lord according to Lee's methods, even how to fellowship in an acceptable manner to Lee and his co-horts.

Most 'sold out' LC saints did accordingly until they absolutely had no Presence of God in them. The Joy of the Lord in their spirits and hearts had departed. They had no one to turn to. They were doing everything 'correct'. But when they 'snapped', they looked down on them who spoke up.

The loyal ones to the LSM/LC but who began questioning the LC methods, felt betrayed and ostracized. A feeling of failure and defeat hovered over many of them. And people like yourself asked "
How could they do that? I thought they were in the same Body??

Answer: Jesus Christ was Lord and King in name only. Lee and his teachings became the 'lord' of the LC. It has taken a lot of time for people who left the LC to go back to reading the Word under the influence and guidance of God the Holy Spirit...shining HIS Light on the pages of the scriptures.

Too many of us still read the scriptures wearing Lee's glasses. It's hard not to especially for those who were in the LSM/LC for decades!

You have got to pick up a different translation of the Bible..and cross reference subject matters using different commentaries.

If there are subject matters Lee taught that were correct and there ARE, accept it and keep moving on. Don't get stuck there. Keep your eyes on the PRIZE of your High Calling===Jesus.

We are glad you sought counseling. Hope you are well on your way having a renewed mind and heart in Christ Jesus.
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Old 09-26-2010, 04:13 PM   #117
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0I would ask that whoever would like ,would help me start a list of concise damage that the LC does to one psychologically. Could be related to spiritual damage, or just plain "mind pain"... I have Christian friends who just have No idea what a group that is "abusive" causes to one's psyche... I hope we will keep it concise - even a list would be good if anyone has one pertaining to helping others understand. Quotes from brothers would be a help as well... Can you help me?
The following ebook by Dr. Steven Lambert should offer some help. Although it was not written with the Local Church specifically in mind, the examples he uses are amazingly similar to what is seen in the LCs. I think Chapter Nine should be especially helpful.

Charismatic Captivation


Authoritarian Abuse & Psychological Enslavement in Neo-Pentecostal Churches
Second Edition - © Copyright 2003 by Steven Lambert, ThD


Table Of Contents
CHAPTER 1 INTRODUCTION: THE PROBLEM, PREDICTION, & PREMISE .... 1
CHAPTER 2 THE DISCIPLESHIP/SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT ...................21
CHAPTER 3 NICOLAITANISM .................................................. ....... 43
CHAPTER 4 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT#1: AUTHORITY ............................ 57
CHAPTER 5 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #2: “SPIRITUAL COVERING” ............ 89
CHAPTER 6 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #3: “UNITY” ............................... 125
CHAPTER 7 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #4: ROLE OF THE LAITY ................ 163
CHAPTER 8 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #5: ROLE OF FIVEFOLD MINISTERS .. 195
CHAPTER 9 THE SIGNS OF AUTHORITARIAN ABUSE &
COMMON CONTROL MECHANISMS .................................................. 233

CHAPTER 10 RELIGIOUS ENSLAVEMENT: SORCERY .... ........................ 253
CHAPTER 11 THE ILLEGITIMACY OF RELIGIOUS ENSLAVEMENT ............. 269
CHAPTER 12 THE 15 “RS” OF RECOVERY FROM AUTHORITARIAN ABUSE .. 291


An excerpt from Chapter Nine follows [pg 245]:

2. Fear and Intimidation Projection
"In these hyper-authoritarian groups wherein there is a culture of
domination and control, members are psychologically traumatized and
indoctrinated with numerous fears and phobias aimed at keeping them
reeling in diffidence and dependence on their leaders and the corporate
group. So intense are these fears and phobias that departing members
commonly suffer from various psychological problems and even clinical
neuroses, and some even display the classic symptoms associated with
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Following their departure or
separation from the group, in addition to deliverance from demonic
incursion, many have a need for some form of psychological counseling.
The following are some of the fears the leadership of these groups foster
and project upon their adherents as a form of subjugation."

Sub-points under "Fear and Intimidation Projection"

A. Fear of Open Censure and Rebuke.
B. Fear of Disapproval and Rejection.
C. Fear of Denunciation and Disgrace Upon Departure.
D. Fear of Excommunication.
E. Fear of Judgment.
F. Fear of Failure.
G. Fear of Lost or Invalid Salvation.


I hope this resource is helpful in forming a list of symptoms.

P.S.
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:52 PM   #118
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@countmeworthy :
thank you for replying
it's people like you that's encourage me to continue reading the Bible,
i was ready to give up the faith.
i hope in time i will be able to attend church again.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:50 PM   #119
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WOW Conval !

I hardly frequent this site anymore ! The forum simply came to my mind right now to see what's new.

Your reply sooo encouraged ME !!! I've been needing a BOOST lately as at times, I feel so alone as a Christian. I don't go to 'church' anymore. Wayy too many people lavish their praises on their 'pastor'. That said, I do fellowship with Christians almost daily and on Thursday evenings I have been meeting with a group of about 8 people for prayer and fellowship. That is the only time I have fellowship with these people too. Isn't that strange ? I have been meeting with them for 6 yrs. Once or twice a year, we have dinner together at someone's home. Aside from that, we don't fellowship outside our Thursday evening gatherings.

Sometimes the Presence of God is very strong among us and sometimes His Presence is not felt at all even though we are praying and fellowshipping.

The group all attend the same 'church'...a church I stopped attending about 3 years ago. I have not told them I don't go there anymore (or anywhere). I suspect they know I don't. They don't ask me and I don't tell. They are very comfy in that environment and feel their 'pastor' is soooooo 'anointed'. They kind of lift him up the way the LSM lifts up 'brother lee'. This is a common practice among church goers. The diehards lift up their pastors in the same way the diehard LCrs lift up Lee.

Don't get me wrong. I have gotten great insight from pastors teachings of the Word of God from the pulpit. But I think it is very dangerous when people pledge their allegiance to a 'church' under a particular pastor. That is one of many reasons I have stopped attending that 'church' and 'church' altogether.

So if you are led to go 'to church', follow the Spirit of God in your spirit. Just be careful. We are living in the Laodician age. We are living in the age of Apostasy as well. But this is GOOD news ! The scriptures tell us when these things begin to happen, when nation turns against nation, when earthquakes happen in various places ( Haiti, Christchurch, New Zealand, Japan), look up for our Redemption draws nigh. All Praise and Glory to our King Jesus Who is, Who was and Who is coming again ! No more sickness, sorrow, no more tears..no more deception ! No more sin..no more death. Come Lord Jesus.

Pray for discernment. I too am praying for discernment ! I NEED it just as much as all the beloved saints of God need it. I will keep you in my prayers and I mean it !!!

Carol
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:31 PM   #120
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So then I point out that the story does indeed exist, and has been around since around the 2nd century AD. And can be found in "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas," and then I provide a link as prrof --> http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm
I would be very careful reading from the Gnostic gospels, or any of the Apocrypha or pseudo-canonical works. There is a reason the Lord did not permit them to become a part of His Word; which is a complete work which stands apart and alone as the Living and Active Word of God.

Revelation 22:18-19 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

There are deceptions in those books; and if there's one thing you should take from your experience in the LC, it's that deceptions can disguise themselves as very attractive fruit... but they're absolutely toxic.

The Lord didn't hide knowledge away - He left us everything we need to know Him in your Bible. Abide in His Word, and He will Abide in you.

In Christ,

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Old 03-26-2011, 11:08 AM   #121
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WOW Conval !

I hardly frequent this site anymore ! The forum simply came to my mind right now to see what's new.
@countmeworthy
i rarely go to this site either

when i read about lee, all bad memories come to mind.
i thought he's human, i always wonder why LC treat him like a god? never criticize him.. to them all he did is right.. so other church treat their pastor the same? hmm i guess i have to be careful in choosing a church..(and pray for discernment)

no wonder they hate me.. i didn't know this before, i criticized LC in front of a sister(not even at lee directly, all i said was that i didn't believe everyone have to be in FTT)... just then i know how they react to critics... i was then alienated by them...i still pass them on the street or supermarket, they won't speak to me anymore, and just keep staring at me maybe i should have keep my mouth shut??

i just quit LC 1 month ago... not going to church at sunday feels weird to me...but going to LC doesn't feels right anymore...it's depressing
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Old 03-26-2011, 03:41 PM   #122
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when i read about lee, all bad memories come to mind.
i thought he's human, i always wonder why LC treat him like a god? never criticize him.. to them all he did is right.. so other church treat their pastor the same? hmm i guess i have to be careful in choosing a church..(and pray for discernment)
Brother, other churches do NOT treat their Pastors the way Lee is treated by the members of LSM's church. Other churches know their Pastors are men, some gifted by the spirit as Pastors, others not so. Some Pastors with a right relationship with God, and some wolves in sheeps clothing... but other churches do not deify their Pastors... only cults do that.

To be honest, while I always saw that there was too much "uplifting" of Lee, I never realized the heights to which he has been uplifted already... honestly, LSM is well on it's way to "deifying" him; and I honestly mean that.

There are two sisters that I have fellowshipped with here; and on separate occassions, finally cornered, both expressed the same opinion... an opinion I think they never would have expressed had they not been pressed on the issue. What they both said was that Lee's word was the Word of God.

What does that mean? It means that EVERYTHING Lee ever said is unquestionable. It's a grave sin if you disbelieve it - and you will be in jeopardy. It means that those who "opposed" Lee, or LSM by transitive property, oppose GOD. It means that they no longer really believe that there are "other Christians" out there... The only "real" Christians are in LSM's churches. It means that unless the Lord opens these poor peoples eyes to the Truth, they will NOT see their true condition nor the condition of movement they are a part of. They will close their eyes, stop up their ears, and shout "Lord JESUS!" to drown you out.

Unfortunately, they have forgotten the Lord's Word in Matthew 7:22-23

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

What is it to practice Lawlessness? Well, upon what does the Entire Law and Prophets hinge?

Luke 10:27-28 "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

And do those in the LSM churches practice such a Love? They are constantly shouting out for all to hear: 'Lord JESUS we LOVE You!' - but is that really true? My Lord said:

John 14:23-24
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

To keep His Word, you must love as He loved. Selflessly. Love not just the brother or sister beside you in the church who would surely repay you anything you paid them - but love also the poor sinner who falls by the way; love not just the victim but the accused, love not just your friends but also your enemies. Do they do that, as a group I mean - not speaking of individual saints. Are they taught this kind of the love by their leaders?

I have never heard of the LSM church gathering support for the victims in Japan, for those dying of cholera in Haiti, or even for the poor on their own streets in their own cities. This is absolutely foreign to them. Even a 'love feast' is done behind closed doors, for members of the local church... but why not invite in the people who really need food, and minister Christ to them? Perhaps because there is precious little of Christ left to minister in the Local Churches. Perhaps because they didn't just close their doors on the world, they also closed them on Him.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:03 PM   #123
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no wonder they treat me like an enemy.. now it all make sense
before this i used to think, no it can't be because of my critics, it was because other i things i've done... it's unbelieveable... how just one critic has made them so furious :?

Matthew 7:22-23 is exactly what i think of LC too! with their yelling and screaming and all

Quote:
To keep His Word, you must love as He loved. Selflessly. Love not just the brother or sister beside you in the church who would surely repay you anything you paid them - but love also the poor sinner who falls by the way; love not just the victim but the accused, love not just your friends but also your enemies
amen to this!
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:57 AM   #124
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all i said was that i didn't believe everyone have to be in FTT)... just then i know how they react to critics... i was then alienated by them...i still pass them on the street or supermarket, they won't speak to me anymore, and just keep staring at me maybe i should have keep my mouth shut??

i just quit LC 1 month ago... not going to church at sunday feels weird to me...but going to LC doesn't feels right anymore...it's depressing
I have given the same advice. A brother I've known since his birth, I told the FTTA is not for everyone. He should go because he wants to and not because of peer pressure.
A concept that needs to be dropped is the LC being a special place. In the city where you live, it is just one more option to assemble with on Sunday mornings.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:47 AM   #125
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To keep His Word, you must love as He loved. Selflessly. Love not just the brother or sister beside you in the church who would surely repay you anything you paid them - but love also the poor sinner who falls by the way; love not just the victim but the accused, love not just your friends but also your enemies. Do they do that, as a group I mean - not speaking of individual saints. Are they taught this kind of the love by their leaders?

I have never heard of the LSM church gathering support for the victims in Japan, for those dying of cholera in Haiti, or even for the poor on their own streets in their own cities. This is absolutely foreign to them. Even a 'love feast' is done behind closed doors, for members of the local church... but why not invite in the people who really need food, and minister Christ to them? Perhaps because there is precious little of Christ left to minister in the Local Churches. Perhaps because they didn't just close their doors on the world, they also closed them on Him.
Luke 6:32-34
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
"If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
"If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

There has been a tendency in the local churches to love those who love the ministry. If there's little love for the ministry, there is little love for that individual.
I question the degree of love. If a brother has backslidden or has fallen prey to the world, there is little effort to go after him. If you ask why, I would suggest there's the profitability thought. If there's no immediate benefits, it 's a waste of time to labor. This ties into NFNL's post. This explains why there is no charity. What immediate benefit is it to local churches or to Living Stream to provide charity? Of course if it's a member of your church or another local church, there is benefit in giving charity.
With there being a conditional aspect of charity, Luke 6:32-34 comes to mind which is why I posted those verses.
As for Matthew 23:37, what says ye?
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:59 AM   #126
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Default Re: Psychological Damage in the LC

After reading through this thread...my heart hurt...but God began to speak to me...Think of all the evil going on in the LSM office (Philip Lee)...think of all the materials that passed through that office...now realize how many trusting believers were REQUIRED to purchase these materials...
Now visualize all of the demons that attached themselves to these materials and were carried into each home!

We welcomed demonic things in the name of spiritual helps!

Any wonder that folks suffered? The materials suggested for ridding yourself of these evil hitchhikers are good. There is one more I might add...the recent writings of Rebecca Brown and Daniel Yoder. I just spent the weekend with Rebecca and have spent some years cleansing my own life. Her early works are much like what is suggested, however, those written within the last few years are extremely clear, simple in the authority of Christ. No yelling or screaming...only a calm statement of authority.

www.harvestwarriors.com
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:07 PM   #127
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no wonder they hate me.. i didn't know this before, i criticized LC in front of a sister(not even at lee directly, all i said was that i didn't believe everyone have to be in FTT)... just then i know how they react to critics... i was then alienated by them...i still pass them on the street or supermarket, they won't speak to me anymore, and just keep staring at me maybe i should have keep my mouth shut??
Last week I read what a reverend in Florida did in burning the quran. He may serve his church, but the incident of burning a quran was of the flesh. It is not indicative of our Christian faith.
Likewise the shunning you received conval was product of the flesh. That was not part of Jesus' ministry.
If the saints in the local churches where you used to meet value Witness Lee's ministry so highly, they ought to read his book A Word of Love...Just maybe his ministry might impact how they respond to fellow members of the Body.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
Matthew 5:44
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:53 AM   #128
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#what do you mean? i keep praying and they keep hating? i've done that for the last 2 years... nothing changes

i thought FTT is like an upgraded version of your ordinary christian? how come they've been "trained" for about 2 years and still not any better than the ordinary people/non-christian? they think so highly about themself like all that matters is their opinion, that they know everything better than anybody..
why would anyone trained but later still in the "flesh"?

LC & FTT criticize everyone but they can't take criticism...

my last week in LC, one of the brother said, other christians, the kind that only attend church on sundays, will all be thrown to hell.. isn't that means he thinks anyone outside LC is not a christian?

#so what does it means, being "a christian?"
i thought the best way to share the Bible, is not just through sharing the Bible to others, it's through your lives, every individual action, our lives should reflect the image of Christ, not the image of our imperfection?

#how did the brother react when you told him FTTA is not for everyone?
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:20 AM   #129
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i thought FTT is like an upgraded version of your ordinary christian? how come they've been "trained" for about 2 years and still not any better than the ordinary people/non-christian? they think so highly about themself like all that matters is their opinion, that they know everything better than anybody....isnt the Bible says "".
why would anyone trained but later still in the "flesh"?

LC & FTT criticize everyone but they can't take criticism...

my last week in LC, one of the brother said, other christians, the kind that only attend church on sundays, will all be thrown to hell.. isn't that means he thinks anyone outside LC is not a christian?

#how did the brother react when you told him FTTA is not for everyone?
A. My understanding of the FTT was an intensified training in the ministry. If it had been an intensified training in the Word, I might have wanted to attend.
As I see it now a two year program where some college graduates put their life ambitions on hold in order to appease peer pressures. While others have the ministry as their life ambition.

B. True, there is a tendency to criticize and an inability to take criticism.

C. That brother in the LC who spoke that word, how does he know? Does he fellowship with any Christians outside the local churches? My experience Christians outside the local churches aren't any different. Many I know are zealous for the Word and to be constituted in the Word.

D. How did the brother react? Quite normally. Accepting my advice that the FTTA is not for everyone and that if he goes it's because he wants to and not because of peer pressure.
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #130
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exactly, he doesn't know! then why did he said that? it confuses me...
i think outside LC, people love God too...
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:21 AM   #131
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exactly, he doesn't know! then why did he said that? it confuses me...
i think outside LC, people love God too...
That's a question he needs to answer. We can only hypothesize.
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:10 PM   #132
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.......It means that they no longer really believe that there are "other Christians" out there... The only "real" Christians are in LSM's churches. It means that unless the Lord opens these poor peoples eyes to the Truth, they will NOT see their true condition nor the condition of movement they are a part of. They will close their eyes, stop up their ears, and shout "Lord JESUS!" to drown you out.

Unfortunately, they have forgotten the Lord's Word in Matthew 7:22-23

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

What is it to practice Lawlessness? Well, upon what does the Entire Law and Prophets hinge?

Luke 10:27-28 "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

And do those in the LSM churches practice such a Love? They are constantly shouting out for all to hear: 'Lord JESUS we LOVE You!' - but is that really true? My Lord said:

John 14:23-24
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

To keep His Word, you must love as He loved. Selflessly. Love not just the brother or sister beside you in the church who would surely repay you anything you paid them - but love also the poor sinner who falls by the way; love not just the victim but the accused, love not just your friends but also your enemies. Do they do that, as a group I mean - not speaking of individual saints. Are they taught this kind of the love by their leaders?

I have never heard of the LSM church gathering support for the victims in Japan, for those dying of cholera in Haiti, or even for the poor on their own streets in their own cities. This is absolutely foreign to them. Even a 'love feast' is done behind closed doors, for members of the local church... but why not invite in the people who really need food, and minister Christ to them? Perhaps because there is precious little of Christ left to minister in the Local Churches. Perhaps because they didn't just close their doors on the world, they also closed them on Him.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

WOW. Great post!

The entire law and prophets hinge on two commandments - love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If you don't do these things, you practice lawlessness. Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. What a great connection you made!

That is what has made it so confusing for me in the LCs......because the Lord's name is being mentioned, things are being done in prayer.....why leave a place where these things are happening? But what I've so acutely seen and experienced is there is almost zero real, actual love. People will turn their backs on you while uttering the Lord's name. Talk about hypocrisy. Depart from them!

And it's a great point that wrapped up in loving God is loving others (you clothed them, you gave them a drink, and that was Me you were caring for). If you actually do love God, then loving your neighbor is also loving God, as Jesus Himself has said.

Love is almost all but gone in the LCs.
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