Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Various Living Stream Ministry Publications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-03-2019, 12:17 PM   #1
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 416
Default Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches Living Stream Ministry, 1989


I just.......I mean......am I the only one who reads this and thinks....."ffffffwwwwhhhaaatttt??"

KNOWING GOD OR KNOWING CHRIST IS NOT ADEQUATE??? You mean Lee's local churches are a higher sphere than God?!?!

Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 12:46 PM   #2
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
Trapped, that fellowship is outdated.

The local churches soon became "merely a procedure."

Then to know the local churches was also not adequate.

One must know the body of Christ!

Later, that too became inadequate and one must now know the unique new testament ministry.

Then you are up-to-date!

Get the picture?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 12:57 PM   #3
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,829
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Witness Lee
"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate."

The Lord Jesus Christ
And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

I don't know about y'all, but I think I'm going to go with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and maybe just ignore Witness Lee.
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 01:29 PM   #4
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,064
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

"Today is the day of the local churches"

Similar to Pol Pot saying, "It is the year zero." If you rise from the dead and walk on water, you can say stuff like that.

Otherwise, you have just exposed yourself. A tin-horn satrap.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 02:27 PM   #5
Truthseeker
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 81
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Yeah,I also felt stumbled when I saw this quote. I demand explanation for this quote. If not, can you remove it? We need to remove leavened teaching from His unleavened Body.
Truthseeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 02:33 PM   #6
Truthseeker
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 81
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
Truthseeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 03:41 PM   #7
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,064
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

I read a quote from when LSM went into PRC in '79. "The age of the Word is over - it is now the age of the Spirit." And how much nuttiness followed that?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 08:19 PM   #8
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,829
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Witness Lee
"Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local."

This part might be even more disturbing and damaging then the first about knowing God not being adequate. We all know that when Witness Lee said "the churches which are local" he really and truly meant THE CHURCHES WHICH ARE LOCAL THAT ARE UNDER HIS MINISTRY AND FULL CONTROL. And now it has become very clear that this was the case going back to the early days in Taiwan and SE Asia. Our dear Brother Lee was hiring and firing elders and co-workers and intervening in the government and function of local churches at his personal whim going all the way back to at least the 1950s.

The churches under Witness Lee's ministry have never really been local at all. While Lee was alive, they were not "answering each to the Lord". No sir. If they were to be considered a "local church in the Lord's Recovery" they answered only and always to the person and work of Witness Lee. Today, these "ministry churches" still answer to the person and work of Lee, but it is through the interpretive lenses of the Blended Brothers in Anaheim. Same company - different boss.
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 10:02 AM   #9
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 416
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Today's Witness Wednesday is doing me in too:

Do not simply know God according to what He does, but know Him according to what He is. Whether or not God does something for us means nothing.

Again I say....whaaaaaaattt??

Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 10:16 AM   #10
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Today's Witness Wednesday is doing me in too:

Do not simply know God according to what He does, but know Him according to what He is. Whether or not God does something for us means nothing.

Again I say....whaaaaaaattt??

Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
I had a problem with that quote, too. How can something God does mean nothing?
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 10:21 AM   #11
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
This is why his Blended minions also think in such absolutes. They used to attack the GLA for playing electric guitars simply because W.Lee deemed the piano and the acoustic guitar alone to be "holy" for meetings.

John Darby demanded all of his assemblies to sing a cappella, while condemning the use of a piano as a "wooden brother."

Absolutism produces exclusivism, which produces Laodicea, the land without love.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 10:33 AM   #12
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Lee was actually a terrible communicator.

Look at all the debate between LSM and GLA about "what he really meant." Endless parsing.

You shouldn't have to decipher the teachings of a contemporary minister, let alone someone who claims to be MOTA. There are plenty of clear Christians teachers. Why even bother with him?
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 12:12 PM   #13
countmeworthy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,241
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Lee was actually a terrible communicator.

Look at all the debate between LSM and GLA about "what he really meant." Endless parsing.

You shouldn't have to decipher the teachings of a contemporary minister, let alone someone who claims to be MOTA. There are plenty of clear Christians teachers. Why even bother with him?

No kidding!!
I hated listening to his tapes and listening to him at meetings, conferences, trainings.

However at the time I appreciated the life studies because 1) they were easy to read/understand, 2) we at least were studying the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. His focus and thread were 'Christ and the church'... translation: the LC, Lord's recovery, LSM....

Thank GOD I from the get go was so grateful I truly got saved from hell, from the life I was living, experienced the Power of the Cleansing Blood, and the washing of the Word of God in my being. I appreciated the fellowship of my local church community (San Diego and the blessed elders I was under).


Above all, I never forgot and still haven't that JESUS CHRIST through His Life giving Spirit saved me and delivered me. My focus was/is HIM..

He makes it so much easier for me/us to discern the true teachers/preachers He raises up who point us to HIS WORD, To Christ.

But Lee and his minions IMHO did very little to point the saints to Christ... to trust HIM, to follow HIM, to get to intimately know HIM.

Lee like many church pastors did / do not want to lose their 'flock'. So they control them by twisting God's Word. Lee was a master of manipulation!
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:36)
countmeworthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 09:08 PM   #14
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,514
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
And all believers throughout history too.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 09:32 AM   #15
HERn
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 817
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
Let's not forget all the millions of brothers and sisters who came before us, many who suffered the loss of health, life, reputation, family, and possessions. They are in the universal church, and as it says in Hebrews, somehow they are a great cloud of witnesses.
__________________
Look to Jesus not The Ministry! Hebrews 12:2.
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
HERn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 09:31 AM   #16
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron Kangas quote:
"I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her."

"Ugh!" is all I can say.

I hope she gave him an earful about that. How crass can you get?

Suffice to say Kangas didn't write the Song of Songs.
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 10:11 AM   #17
least
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 174
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron Kangas quote:
"I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her."

Ron Kangas made only one crown.
One crown, he puts on his own head.
He is someone. He exalts himself the 'delegated authority'.

She is no one. He said.
least is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 11:18 AM   #18
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,829
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron, Ron, Ron.

I have never heard any sister say she wants to be crowned or be exalted in any way. (I wish I could say the same thing about you Blended Brothers) I do believe that sisters would like to not be treated as a second class citizen, relegated to only cooking, cleaning and babysitting. They also don't want to be considered as "nothing" and "no one". I never heard Witness Lee say such a thing. I have never heard or read where Watchman Nee uttered such nonsense. And we all know that you certainly did not get this notion from the Bible.

Ron, I don't think you would have made such a crude, sexist and absurd statement when your first wife Susan was alive. She would have had your head and you know it. So now that you have a "submissive" Chinese/Asian wife (probably a life-long Local Churcher) you think you can spew out this garbage in public? Shame on you. You are being rebuked by the Lord and his Word. You are also being rebuked by the rest of the Body that is not under your thumb.
-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 12:35 PM   #19
Jo S
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 379
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Ron, Ron, Ron.

I have never heard any sister say she wants to be crowned or be exalted in any way. (I wish I could say the same thing about you Blended Brothers) I do believe that sisters would like to not be treated as a second class citizen, relegated to only cooking, cleaning and babysitting. They also don't want to be considered as "nothing" and "no one". I never heard Witness Lee say such a thing. I have never heard or read where Watchman Nee uttered such nonsense. And we all know that you certainly did not get this notion from the Bible.

-
Nee did do the extreme opposite and rather than Christ, he gave women spiritual authority over him during his formative years. Because of those influences, he mingled false spirituality into Christian doctrine and it became what it is today, the Lord's Recovery.

BTW, who exactly is this Kangas character? Is he a Blended brother?

It's an appalling thing to say of your wife "she is nothing". You may not have to exalt her but that doesn't mean you need to put her under your feet either. It seems Mr. Kangas confuses women for the serpent and is crushing the wrong creature.

With that said, feminism isn't the solution to misogyny yet it seems that those are the only two options society presents us.

So who's right in their view of women? Kangas or Nee?

This seems to be the order of the day in politics. Create a false dilemma and make people choose. Liberal or conservative, LSM or GLA, misogyny or feminism ect.

By allowing only two options, whether intentional or not, choosing or focusing your energy on one only helps give validity to the other.
Jo S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 01:05 PM   #20
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
BTW, who exactly is this Kangas character? Is he a Blended brother?
Ron Kangas:

The most Blended af the Blendeds

Princeton Theological School Graduate

Long time chief editor for Lee's books after a "storm" knocked out other editors like John Ingalls.

Presently Chief Theologian of The Recovery.

One of their primary conference speakers.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 01:37 PM   #21
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
So who's right in their view of women? Kangas or Nee?
Are they the only choice we have?
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 01:38 PM   #22
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Ron Kangas:

The most Blended af the Blendeds

Princeton Theological School Graduate

Long time chief editor for Lee's books after a "storm" knocked out other editors like John Ingalls.

Presently Chief Theologian of The Recovery.

One of their primary conference speakers.
Excruciating bore.
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 04:19 PM   #23
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Excruciating bore.
After Lee passed, Ron Kangas emerged on the scene, and visited a number of places to minister.

TC approached him, and attempted to complement him on his gift of teaching.

Ron shooed him away, like one would brush off a mosquito. Or a leper.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 04:27 PM   #24
Jo S
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 379
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
After Lee passed, Ron Kangas emerged on the scene, and visited a number of places to minister.

TC approached him, and attempted to complement him on his gift of teaching.

Ron shooed him away, like one would brush off a mosquito. Or a leper.

Ohio, why do you think Ron did that? And why do you think Titus felt it necessary to compliment Kangas? I think your statement implies something but you're not being clear on what that is.

If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother then yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.

Do you know what Chu's and Kangas's relationship was like prior to Lee's passing?
Jo S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 05:08 PM   #25
Jo S
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 379
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Are they the only choice we have?
Igzy, it was a rhetorical question... The third option is; neither of them were right.
Jo S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 08:43 PM   #26
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother than yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.
Or Chu was just being clueless (because Kangas has no teaching gift) and Kangas was just being an ass (because that comes naturally for him).

Anything more complicated than that, including your theory, is even worse.

(Whatever happened to just receiving a compliment graciously?)
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 09:24 PM   #27
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
Ohio, why do you think Ron did that? And why do you think Titus felt it necessary to compliment Kangas? I think your statement implies something but you're not being clear on what that is.

If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother then yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.

Do you know what Chu's and Kangas's relationship was like prior to Lee's passing?
Because Ron doesn't know how to say "Thanks."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 09:51 PM   #28
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,514
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Because Ron doesn't know how to say "Thanks."
Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2019, 05:52 AM   #29
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
It's amazing how much pride can hide behind high peak doctrines.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2019, 10:43 AM   #30
Jo S
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 379
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
Harold, then remember that warm hearted brother you once knew in prayer.
Jo S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 02:15 PM   #31
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Seems the home page quotes have been of the outlandish variety lately.

This week, Watchman Nee:
"Whenever man touches God's delegated authority he touches God within that person; sinning against delegated authority is sinning against God."

Yawn. Well, all true "sins" are against God, so this statement is really saying nothing of any substance. It's simply a threat.

It's more LR intimidation. More threats. More fear. More balderdash.

Last edited by Cal; 07-24-2019 at 04:26 PM.
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 03:18 PM   #32
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,514
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Seems the home page quotes have been of the outlandish variety lately.

This week, Watchman Nee:
"Whenever man touches God's delegated authority he touches God within that person; sinning against delegated authority is sinning against God."

Yawn. Well, all true "sins" are against God, so this statement is really saying nothing of any substance. It's simply a threat.

It's more LR intimidation. Mote threats. More fear. More balderdash.
Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 03:52 PM   #33
RambleOn
Member
 
RambleOn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 23
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
LSM. Could be a BB, could be the publication work, could be an LSM sanctioned locality. Could be DCP, an arm of LSM. Could be BFA, or LME, or KGB or GRU. (Wait what?) If you are perceived as attacking anything associated with LSM, you are opposing God's delegated authority.
RambleOn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 04:42 PM   #34
Jo S
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 379
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
Ask an LSM member, it's the Blendeds

Ask a GLA member, it's Titus Chu

Ask someone else, it's Luther, or Calvin, or Pope Francis, or Joseph Smith, ect...

Then ask the independent free loving mystic they'll say it's up to them and their inner guidance or feelings.

And then there's the truth.

Scripture does say that Satan is the authorized god of this age. So when Local Church leaders caution in coming against their authority, their warning is valid. If you're not covered by Christ, you will get burned.

With that said if you truly are in Christ Jesus, then he's your master.
Jo S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 07:46 PM   #35
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,514
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
Ask an LSM member, it's the Blendeds

Ask a GLA member, it's Titus Chu

Ask someone else, it's Luther, or Calvin, or Pope Francis, or Joseph Smith, ect...

Then ask the independent free loving mystic they'll say it's up to them and their inner guidance or feelings.

And then there's the truth.

Scripture does say that Satan is the authorized god of this age. So when Local Church leaders caution in coming against their authority, their warning is valid. If you're not covered by Christ, you will get burned.

With that said if you truly are in Christ Jesus, then he's your master.
Good point about all the delegated authorities. Guess it's a need of the flesh to have them "in the flesh."
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 08:18 PM   #36
Jo S
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 379
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Good point about all the delegated authorities. Guess it's a need of the flesh to have them "in the flesh."
Then thank God Christ came in the flesh so we were able to relate.
Jo S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2019, 11:36 AM   #37
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

This latest quote is so disingenuous --
Quote:
In the Lord's recovery there is no such practice of a "centralization of the churches" and a "centralization of the work." We do emphasize that all the churches should be one in the Body of Christ, not by the way of forming a federation but in the way of adequate fellowship in the Spirit in the organic union of the divine life.
My, My, how does one even begin to unpack this?

For example, I departed just prior to the actual GLA quarantines. Titus Chu was expelled for not submitting to the Blendeds in Anaheim. They basically told us that.

That, my friends, is the very DEFINITION of "Centralization of the Work."

The level of blindness and deception at LSM is truly incredible.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2019, 03:48 PM   #38
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
In the Lord's recovery there is no such practice of a "centralization of the churches" and a "centralization of the work." We do emphasize that all the churches should be one in the Body of Christ, not by the way of forming a federation but in the way of adequate fellowship in the Spirit in the organic union of the
divine life.



Yes, just label your "federation" an "organic union" and you can justify anything!

Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2019, 12:56 PM   #39
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
Harold, then remember that warm hearted brother you once knew in prayer.
Best response on here, IMHO.
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 07:48 AM   #40
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
"Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the "four-in-one" God. These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The Three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused." Witness Lee A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing
This strikes me as Lee daring someone to call him heretical. And no one should be blamed for doing so.
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 09:05 AM   #41
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
This strikes me as Lee daring someone to call him heretical. And no one should be blamed for doing so.
I wonder if we shouldn't use any of these phrases to describe God: Truine, Trinity, 3-in-1, etc. They are all extra-biblical and not found specifically stated in scripture.
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 10:58 AM   #42
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,829
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Well, strictly speaking, EVERYTHING outside of the canon of Scripture is extra-biblical. When the 27 books of the New Testament were "accepted", the canon was closed. Every word ever written or spoken since that time could be considered as "extra-biblical". Since the end of the 1st century there has been a set of normative interpretations, expressed in writings, creeds and statements of faith, and is commonly known as orthodoxy.

Someone's teachings could be considered as biblically orthodox. Yet they are extra-biblical by definition. Someone's teachings could be considered as unorthodox, yet not necessarily heretical, per se. Yet another persons teachings could be considered as biblically unorthodox, yet not rank heresy. Finally, there is rank heresy.

Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching, this does not in any way mitigate the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)

So the bottom line is: There are extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as orthodox. There are also extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as heretical. We don't burn heretics at the stake anymore (thankfully)..but we should put a torch to their false, heretical and harmful teachings.

-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 11:14 AM   #43
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching in no way mitigates the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)
-
I could never forget the story told by Don Rutledge during the heyday of the New Way. Some young ministry groupie came back to the USA announcing how he alone has access to the MOTA and now we know that, "1st is the Father, 2nd is the Son, 3rd is the Spirit, and 4th is Witness Lee."

Someone then squeaked out, "And who is No. 5?' ... Crickets ...
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 11:32 AM   #44
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Crickets are number 5!? I had no idea!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 11:49 AM   #45
Cal
Member
 
Cal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,304
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

No, I'm #5. THEN you hear the crickets.
Cal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 01:30 PM   #46
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
No, I'm #5. THEN you hear the crickets.
No, no, no ... don't you guys understand anything?

It was Philip Lee. It all makes so much sense. But no body would admit it ... except for the crickets. Get it?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 06:34 PM   #47
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
No, no, no ... don't you guys understand anything?
Like Jesus' disciples, just us sheeple here! (God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . .)



__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 07:48 PM   #48
least
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 174
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Like Jesus' disciples, just us sheeple here! (God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . .)
"God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . . "

Top blended wise husband: -
"I will never crown my wife. The bucket will damage her."


least is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2019, 04:05 PM   #49
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching, this does not in any way mitigate the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)

So the bottom line is: There are extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as orthodox. There are also extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as heretical. We don't burn heretics at the stake anymore (thankfully)..but we should put a torch to their false, heretical and harmful teachings.
-
Okay, so back on topic . . .

Yes, 4-in-1 is a bit much. But it is very hard to describe the union that we've been brought into by the good pleasure of our Father, is it not? Lee may have gone overboard (I agree with that) and pushed the envelope. But, as you point out, He could also be mainstream. And through His ministry, I must say, I came to see that there was more to the organic union that God has brought us into, than what a lot of mainstream Christianity routinely acknowledges.

(So go ahead now and let 'er rip!)
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 05:35 PM   #50
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 416
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Okay, okay, so today's not Witness Wednesday, it's Watchman Wednesday.

But what on earth does Watchman's quote mean?

I read it and it comes across something like "arghblhararhglhbahralrhghahlble"

(I actually think the quote is circular referencing back to itself as an example of the stifling of productive thought.......)

The quote is:

"If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 08:49 PM   #51
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Watchman Nee, might had a dazed sensation ad prophesied concerning his Lee-Blended 'spiritual decendants'.

This branch of his 'decendants' as Nee predicted -"has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."

-
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 05:32 AM   #52
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,161
Default Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Trapped,

So you are beginning to see the nature of the ones who would be the Minister of the Age. They get away with jibberish because it sounds so spiritual.

I'm sure someone said or wrote something about this very statement saying how enlightening it was.

And since it was from the Spiritual Man which was essentially his first book, it just shows how spiritually "enlightened" Nee was in his early days. Fast-forwards to Authority and Submission (aka Spiritual Authority) and since everything else fits in between, you have to wonder if there is any reason to take anything he wrote seriously.

But many did, including many who did not follow Lee.

I'm not saying that there are not true statements in any particular writing of Nee or Lee. But with the junk like that little quip mixed in, it looks like the true has been hijacked to serve the false.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 09:07 AM   #53
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

I'm curious - what do you-ins think are Nee's and Lee's best books (and I suspect everyone will probably automatically include what they think are their worst . . .)?
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 11:26 AM   #54
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,829
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Firstly, Watchman Nee only wrote one book - The Spiritual Man. (which he wrote in his early-mid 20s)
Witness Lee, to my knowledge, only wrote one book - Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age (a highly self-serving and dubious biographical history of the life and times and ministry of Watchman Nee)

I think it is important to keep in mind that all the other publications are transcribed/edited versions of Nee and Lee's spoken ministry. In the case of Nee, all the publications were taken from the personal notes of members of the Little Flock/Local Churches in China. In the case of Lee, most publications are simply transcribed/edited versions of his spoken ministry - the vast majority which were taken from conferences and the semi-annual trainings. Do to the technology of electronic recording, the LSM publications of Witness Lee are vastly more accurate and faithful to the spoken messages. Yet we also know that many of Lee's most controversial speakings were edited out of the printed publications by Ron Kangas and other editors.

The problem with your question, my dear brother SontoGlory!, is that in most cases the publications contain some very biblical, healthy teachings AND ALSO some very unbiblical, unhealthy teachings. In fact, I think it would be hard to find one of the publications of Nee or Lee that is totally one or the other. And this is what makes them so very dangerous to younger and/or new believers, or those brothers and sisters who have little to no history of being taught biblical, healthy and theologically orthodox teachings.

-
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 12:36 PM   #55
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Okay, but I actually didn't ask how they got into print, just which books were the best (and worst).

Many on here may be quite biased against ANY of their publications, so let me start it out by stating one best for each.

NEE - The Normal Christian Life Several I know, including myself, have gotten (and continue to get) liberating help from this book.

LEE - The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life In reading this book with some Ohio LC bros (back in the 80s), I had perhaps the strongest bubbling-up enjoyment of the Lord I've ever had.

Alright, load up your cannons . . .
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 02:49 PM   #56
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,161
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

StoG,

It's been too long to try to say what might qualify as the best.

But I would never rate them according the kind of "bubbling-up enjoyment" I got from them because emotions are fickle.

As for The Normal Christian Life, as I no longer have printed versions, I wanted to at least peruse the book briefly before making any (very old) comments and note that they have either left it out of the LSM online collection, or changed its name.

But I will say this for Nee's books. The ones that made it to regular Christian bookstores were mostly of the "inner life" genre. And while there is nothing entirely wrong with that phase/side of Christian thinking, it is too caught up in introspective and "spiritual" things/activities. (I put "scare quotes" around "spiritual" because I am not convinced that it is true spirituality in the Christian sense, though it surely is in the broader sense.) Sometimes it might be accurate to call them "faux spirituality" because they often have the veneer of uber spirituality while being rather thin in practical application. And since there is no such thing as a spiritual/secular divide to a true Christian, anything that has no real application to regular "secular" living is not really very spiritual. Add to it the fact that Nee was also pushing his peculiar/sectarian teachings even in those books and you have more to avoid.

As for the others like Authority and Submission, and the Normal Christian Church whatever might be of value in them is only found sandwiched between what should not be taken seriously, therefore of little value as a resource (unless you are studying abnormal Christian teaching).

The short version of my answer would be that (from my perspective) trying to decide which Nee/Lee books are the best is sort of like trying to decide which dangerous, illegal drug you would rather be forced to take. They all provide highs and are highly addictive, but it all comes at a severe cost. Maybe snorting a little coke might be less onerous than the almost instantly addictive effects of heroin or some of the others. But it is still nothing to desire.

Back to the books . . . .

I know this may seem over-the-top. But even if you are sure you can ferret out what is wrong in any of them, would you rather take your chances, or reject them all and find something truly worthwhile elsewhere? Another way to ask that question is, "are you sure that their teachings are safe enough risk remaining captured in their fog of garlic?" I know that the "church life" is appealing, and the people are worthy of serious consideration. But they are equally trapped circling a spiritual drain of sorts. Is it in your best interest to hang on to any of it?

I realize that I am often the most outspoken in this way. Mostly because I am certain that anything you find there that is truly of value can be found elsewhere. And it won't be hiding the same kinds of errors that it will be when it comes from Nee/Lee/the LC.

Not saying nothing else has any problems. But the nature and severity of those problems are on an entirely different plain in the LC.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 05:30 PM   #57
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
But I would never rate them according the kind of "bubbling-up enjoyment" I got from them because emotions are fickle.
Gosh, and I thought I asked a pretty simple question! (BTW: The "bubbling-up experience" came with a lot of light)
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 07:13 PM   #58
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,161
Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

BTW, does anyone have an answer to the "where is The Normal Christian Life" in the LSM online books question? I would like to look at that book again at least a little.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:42 AM.


3.8.9